[00:03.940 --> 00:17.340]  So, the plaster is falling, the paint is peeling, the plumbing is leaking, the heat and hot water keep cutting off, the elevator keeps breaking down, and the landlord won't return your calls, but the rent keeps going up, and up, and up?
[00:17.740 --> 00:19.760]  Find out what you can do about it.
[00:19.900 --> 00:22.780]  Tune in to Housing Notebook, Mondays at 8pm.
[00:32.270 --> 00:33.290]  No, that's enough of that.
[00:33.630 --> 00:36.470]  You're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:36.650 --> 00:38.370]  The time is just about 7 o'clock.
[00:38.450 --> 00:40.750]  That means time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:45.970 --> 00:50.450]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:51.410 --> 00:55.910]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:56.570 --> 00:58.790]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:01.560 --> 01:04.220]  Bum-diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst.
[01:04.800 --> 01:06.740]  I hope that's understood.
[01:07.020 --> 01:07.740]  Bum-diddly-bo!
[02:03.750 --> 02:04.590]  And good evening to everybody.
[02:04.710 --> 02:05.850]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:06.050 --> 02:08.250]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:08.250 --> 02:09.410]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:09.630 --> 02:09.830]  Hi.
[02:10.010 --> 02:10.370]  Gus.
[02:10.670 --> 02:10.950]  Howdy.
[02:11.210 --> 02:11.630]  Rob T.
[02:11.750 --> 02:12.110]  Firefly.
[02:12.330 --> 02:12.690]  Good evening.
[02:12.750 --> 02:13.110]  Redhack.
[02:13.270 --> 02:13.410]  Hello.
[02:13.610 --> 02:13.930]  Dot Red.
[02:14.190 --> 02:14.450]  Hello.
[02:14.630 --> 02:15.090]  And Bernie S.
[02:15.190 --> 02:15.910]  down there in Philadelphia.
[02:16.430 --> 02:17.370]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:17.770 --> 02:19.530]  And we have a busy show planned for you tonight.
[02:19.550 --> 02:21.750]  We have all kinds of things to talk about and go over.
[02:22.050 --> 02:24.010]  Upcoming events in the hacker world.
[02:24.090 --> 02:28.350]  But first, let's take a very quick look at some of the interesting things happening in the news.
[02:28.430 --> 02:30.890]  And maybe we'll get back to some other pieces later on in the program as well.
[02:30.890 --> 02:34.430]  Of course, your phone calls will wrap up the day's events as always.
[02:34.870 --> 02:35.650]  That's kind of the highlight.
[02:36.010 --> 02:38.110]  So write down 212-209-2900.
[02:38.110 --> 02:40.210]  That's our phone number for later on.
[02:40.390 --> 02:45.030]  Now, there's a new bill coming up which would outlaw the practice of spoofing.
[02:45.430 --> 02:47.110]  Yeah, we all know how evil spoofing can be.
[02:47.190 --> 02:56.370]  The use of fraudulent caller ID by con men looking to steal personal information, political operatives looking to slander an opponent, and other fraudsters and criminals.
[02:56.370 --> 02:57.930]  I'm sure a child pornography is in there somewhere.
[02:59.430 --> 03:00.110]  It's true.
[03:00.110 --> 03:05.610]  It's introduced by Congressman Elliot Engel, Democrat of New York, and Joe Barton, Republican of Texas.
[03:05.850 --> 03:09.470]  It's always dangerous when Democrats from New York and Republicans from Texas get together.
[03:09.750 --> 03:12.530]  And both are members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.
[03:13.050 --> 03:18.950]  Now, spoofing is the term describing technology to falsify the name and phone number appearing on caller ID.
[03:19.270 --> 03:27.330]  A spoofer can pretend, for example, to be calling from a bank to persuade a person to give out their Social Security or credit card numbers and other personal information.
[03:27.610 --> 03:33.350]  This information is then used to fraudulently obtain credit cards or withdraw money from the person's bank account.
[03:33.570 --> 03:40.570]  It's another example of technology being misused by the unscrupulous to scam the unsuspecting, said Elliot Engel.
[03:40.730 --> 03:49.650]  If spoofers are able to get your Social Security number, they can access bank and credit accounts, steal money, create false credit card accounts, and cause havoc with your personal and financial life.
[03:49.650 --> 03:52.830]  It can take years for a victim to correct the damages.
[03:53.150 --> 03:56.270]  Now, this legislation is called the Truth in Caller ID Act.
[03:56.670 --> 03:58.430]  Yeah, TCIA.
[03:58.630 --> 04:06.350]  It would amend the Communications Act of 1934, making it illegal to alter caller ID with intent to defraud or cause harm.
[04:06.430 --> 04:12.310]  And it would give the Federal Communications Commission authority to develop regulations to enforce the new law.
[04:12.490 --> 04:17.410]  It can face $10,000 in fines or a year in prison.
[04:18.190 --> 04:19.770]  Now, the thing is, this is very easy to do.
[04:19.890 --> 04:21.270]  It's very easy to spoof caller ID.
[04:21.450 --> 04:25.390]  Just go to a website, put in your phone number and the number you're calling and the number you'd like to show up.
[04:25.470 --> 04:26.830]  And it's as simple as that.
[04:27.330 --> 04:34.290]  So my question is, why not just make it illegal to defraud or cause harm, no matter what it is that you're doing?
[04:34.490 --> 04:35.270]  Well, that's already done.
[04:35.270 --> 04:37.990]  So it wouldn't give the Congress anything to do with their time.
[04:37.990 --> 04:39.550]  So why do we need a new law for this?
[04:40.010 --> 04:43.250]  What would you rather have the Congress be doing, focusing on real problems?
[04:43.390 --> 04:44.670]  Congress doesn't have enough to do right now?
[04:44.670 --> 04:48.730]  Yeah, I think maybe they do have something, something else they should be keeping track of.
[04:48.830 --> 04:49.370]  Yes, Rob.
[04:49.530 --> 04:51.390]  So it's against the law to do something illegal.
[04:51.810 --> 04:52.950]  I'm shocked and appalled.
[04:52.950 --> 04:54.810]  But it seems to be more against the law to do this.
[04:55.270 --> 04:57.390]  Or they want it to be more against the law to do this.
[04:57.510 --> 04:58.250]  So it's with intent, though.
[04:58.370 --> 04:59.890]  It's with intent to defraud or harm.
[05:00.030 --> 05:03.130]  So it's still okay to spoof if your intent is to amuse.
[05:03.570 --> 05:03.830]  Uh-huh.
[05:04.210 --> 05:04.510]  Red Act.
[05:04.630 --> 05:09.030]  I think caller ID spoofing with all its fraudulent uses has ruined the economy.
[05:09.570 --> 05:11.690]  Yeah, there's that sentiment as well.
[05:11.870 --> 05:12.870]  But, you know, it's a lot of fun.
[05:12.890 --> 05:13.670]  It really is.
[05:14.510 --> 05:16.090]  Bernie, any thoughts on this?
[05:17.090 --> 05:23.250]  Well, that legislator made a blanket statement that anyone using caller ID spoofing is unscrupulous.
[05:23.690 --> 05:29.210]  And I guess that applies to law enforcement officials who use that to fool their targets.
[05:29.270 --> 05:31.430]  Well, you always have to have an exception for law enforcement.
[05:31.490 --> 05:31.850]  You know that.
[05:31.950 --> 05:32.470]  Oh, that's right.
[05:32.490 --> 05:32.910]  I forgot.
[05:33.130 --> 05:39.290]  Every criminal law always has an exception that allows law enforcement to violate that law with impunity.
[05:39.470 --> 05:41.210]  I keep forgetting that they have carte blanche.
[05:41.270 --> 05:42.230]  Well, keep reminding you.
[05:42.230 --> 05:42.670]  Yes, Red Act.
[05:42.690 --> 05:45.310]  There's also companies that use caller ID spoofing.
[05:45.450 --> 05:51.430]  I don't remember the name of this one, but I think we mentioned it on a show a couple You mean that they market it or they actually use it themselves?
[05:51.750 --> 05:52.290]  Well, no.
[05:52.570 --> 05:59.170]  It's marketed as something where you call or you get it so that it basically unmasks somebody's caller ID if they have blocking.
[05:59.390 --> 05:59.910]  Right, right.
[05:59.910 --> 06:01.150]  So I don't know if we talked about this.
[06:01.170 --> 06:02.190]  I don't think we have talked about this.
[06:02.270 --> 06:04.850]  But yeah, as a company that does that, you call a particular number, I think?
[06:04.850 --> 06:05.170]  Well, what you do...
[06:05.170 --> 06:09.070]  No, you set it up so that your phone number forwards to their, I guess, 1-800 number.
[06:09.210 --> 06:12.910]  And because of the billing system, they get the actual phone number that's calling.
[06:12.910 --> 06:15.010]  Well, they get the A&I instead of the caller ID data.
[06:15.030 --> 06:15.510]  Right, exactly.
[06:15.670 --> 06:18.090]  And so then they forward that on...
[06:18.090 --> 06:19.550]  Then they call you, your phone.
[06:19.550 --> 06:21.890]  So you go through them and it unmasks...
[06:21.890 --> 06:22.170]  Basically.
[06:22.310 --> 06:28.090]  But they have to use caller ID spoofing so that your phone then gets the number that it would have originally gotten to be unmasked.
[06:28.190 --> 06:31.750]  That doesn't sound like it has the intent to defraud any party.
[06:31.910 --> 06:32.670]  So that doesn't sound...
[06:32.670 --> 06:33.090]  Well, it could.
[06:33.130 --> 06:34.290]  It depends on the person calling.
[06:34.470 --> 06:37.350]  The person calling might be a stalker or the person...
[06:37.350 --> 06:38.990]  And they wanted to be cloaked to begin with.
[06:39.110 --> 06:39.190]  Yeah.
[06:39.350 --> 06:39.590]  Yeah.
[06:40.150 --> 06:40.590]  I'm sorry.
[06:40.690 --> 06:41.410]  The other way around.
[06:41.470 --> 06:46.150]  The person calling might be wanting to protect their number from, say, an abusive husband or something like that.
[06:46.290 --> 06:46.990]  I don't know why they'd be calling him.
[06:47.050 --> 06:50.870]  But there's all kinds of reasons why you want to keep your number quiet or secret.
[06:51.650 --> 06:54.070]  And this sort of takes it away without any kind of warning.
[06:54.230 --> 06:55.410]  So that's a little bit troublesome.
[06:55.970 --> 06:56.350]  Emmanuel.
[06:56.450 --> 06:56.770]  Yes, go ahead.
[06:57.750 --> 07:03.610]  Both bill collectors and telemarketers have been known to use caller ID spoofing.
[07:03.610 --> 07:05.650]  It's very easy if you have a telephone switch.
[07:05.850 --> 07:14.010]  Even something simple is one you built yourself using Asterisk, which is a Linux-based phone switch you could just run in your own home or small business.
[07:15.090 --> 07:18.350]  It's very easy to do caller ID spoofing without having to go through some third party.
[07:18.350 --> 07:33.810]  And some companies have used this in order to get people to answer the phone for telemarketing or for bill collecting when, you know, when the recipients of these calls are not going to answer if they know it's from a telemarketing company or from a bill collector.
[07:33.810 --> 07:38.710]  It's also a great way to retrieve information from unlisted phone numbers.
[07:38.770 --> 07:41.290]  For instance, you just simply call somebody.
[07:41.470 --> 07:46.530]  You call somebody with caller ID and spoof your number to be every single number in a particular exchange.
[07:46.810 --> 07:51.010]  And then you simply get the names that are associated with every single phone number in that exchange.
[07:51.130 --> 07:55.550]  It takes a while, but it's not affected by listings in the phone book.
[07:55.850 --> 07:57.510]  For instance, George W.
[07:57.610 --> 08:05.930]  Bush, wherever he's hiding these days, if he called you from his number, you'd see his name show up, even if he star six, sevened or unlisted his phone or whatever.
[08:06.690 --> 08:09.350]  If you get a call from that number, it will show up on caller ID.
[08:09.610 --> 08:22.610]  So clearly, if telemarketers and bill collectors and people like that like to spoof, then what we really need to do, the true democratic process would be to go to telemarketers and bill collectors and say, hey, your lobbyists need to go and fight this legislation right now.
[08:22.670 --> 08:23.870]  And I'm guessing that's probably what's going to happen.
[08:23.970 --> 08:24.050]  Yeah.
[08:24.050 --> 08:25.390]  I would think so.
[08:25.470 --> 08:25.750]  Yes.
[08:26.630 --> 08:37.010]  Speaking of legislation, in Germany, German retailer Galleria Kaufhof has decided to pull violent video games from its shelves.
[08:37.410 --> 08:40.990]  That's after a political debate on instituting an outright ban, which has erupted.
[08:41.470 --> 08:46.770]  The German chain is pulling violent video games in the wake of the horrific school shooting they had a couple of weeks ago.
[08:47.010 --> 08:53.090]  Beginning in April, the company announced the games with 18 plus ratings will no longer be sold in its department stores.
[08:53.890 --> 08:59.050]  The decision comes in the wake of the shooting in Winnenden earlier this month.
[08:59.810 --> 09:00.410]  Oh, okay.
[09:00.550 --> 09:01.010]  We have...
[09:01.010 --> 09:01.950]  Go ahead, Dot Red, you first.
[09:02.250 --> 09:02.750]  Don't you know?
[09:02.890 --> 09:04.310]  Violent games cause murderers.
[09:04.510 --> 09:04.790]  Yeah.
[09:04.970 --> 09:07.030]  Well, you know, it might be a little bit more complicated than that.
[09:07.030 --> 09:07.350]  No, no.
[09:07.410 --> 09:08.050]  It's not complicated.
[09:08.130 --> 09:08.630]  It's black and white.
[09:08.750 --> 09:09.390]  It's black and white.
[09:09.390 --> 09:09.930]  Is that simple?
[09:10.130 --> 09:10.270]  Okay.
[09:10.270 --> 09:11.110]  Well, thanks for clearing that up.
[09:11.110 --> 09:14.050]  I was actually going to say that guns don't kill people, violent video games.
[09:14.050 --> 09:14.310]  Well, okay.
[09:14.350 --> 09:16.570]  If you're going to bring guns into this, what's the difference?
[09:16.710 --> 09:18.790]  What's the difference between banning guns and banning video games?
[09:18.910 --> 09:20.170]  You can make the same argument, couldn't you?
[09:20.790 --> 09:22.550]  Listen, I want to step up for video games.
[09:22.550 --> 09:26.430]  Yeah, I don't want to have the whole show be about this, but I'm just saying, you know, it's an interesting point.
[09:26.610 --> 09:30.030]  I want to step up and say that video games actually teach people useful skills.
[09:30.150 --> 09:41.450]  Like, for example, there was a kid in Norway who learned, and this was in the news a while ago, he learned how to distract a moose from World of Warcraft, and he saved his little sister because the moose was about to trample them.
[09:41.530 --> 09:42.130]  I'm not kidding.
[09:42.130 --> 09:42.930]  This was in the news.
[09:43.090 --> 09:44.610]  There's a moose in World of Warcraft?
[09:45.110 --> 09:47.250]  No, but he learned skills from World of Warcraft.
[09:47.350 --> 09:52.890]  He learned how to taunt the moose to distract its attention from the weaker party, which was a tactic that he learned from World of Warcraft.
[09:52.990 --> 09:53.570]  Couldn't you...
[09:53.570 --> 09:55.350]  And then he played dead when his sister escaped.
[09:55.370 --> 09:58.170]  But couldn't you learn taunting and playing dead in real life?
[09:58.410 --> 09:59.070]  But you could...
[09:59.070 --> 10:00.370]  But what if the kid just was...
[10:00.370 --> 10:00.430]  I know I did.
[10:00.590 --> 10:04.230]  What if he grew up in a box, and he couldn't learn, you know, in a little black box?
[10:04.330 --> 10:06.130]  It's Norway, you know, there could not be that many people around.
[10:06.230 --> 10:07.810]  There's no moose in little black boxes.
[10:08.210 --> 10:08.370]  Yeah.
[10:08.730 --> 10:09.390]  That's my point.
[10:09.570 --> 10:09.830]  Yes.
[10:09.830 --> 10:13.430]  The trial and error in a video game is a bit better, because you don't...
[10:13.430 --> 10:15.830]  If you die, it's not permanent.
[10:15.950 --> 10:16.330]  This is true.
[10:16.350 --> 10:18.710]  And you can learn these skills in a safe environment.
[10:18.830 --> 10:24.770]  Okay, but the point is, is banning something, because you see some kind of a parallel, a similarity between violent people.
[10:24.870 --> 10:27.870]  Yes, violent people tend to like to play violent games.
[10:27.990 --> 10:30.970]  So that doesn't mean everybody that plays a violent game is going to be a violent person.
[10:31.090 --> 10:31.270]  Rob?
[10:31.450 --> 10:39.610]  Well, there have been major department store chains in this country that have banned the sale of such things from their shelves, and it's not really put a huge dent in the industry.
[10:40.350 --> 10:42.710]  Now, I know, Red Hat, you like to play Grand Theft Auto.
[10:42.910 --> 10:44.250]  How many autos have you actually stolen?
[10:47.030 --> 10:48.790]  Oh, no, you have no idea what happens.
[10:48.850 --> 10:50.230]  I walk up to cars, I push triangle.
[10:50.510 --> 10:51.050]  Oh, my God.
[10:51.170 --> 10:52.130]  Mayhem I caused now.
[10:52.470 --> 10:52.830]  They just open up.
[10:53.070 --> 10:56.170]  No, but, I mean, the thing is that this is a private business.
[10:56.170 --> 10:58.390]  If this is what they want to do, that's their prerogative.
[10:58.810 --> 11:01.090]  You know, we probably consider it an overreaction.
[11:01.770 --> 11:04.630]  They're doing it because they think it'll help their business.
[11:04.630 --> 11:05.210]  That's fine.
[11:05.210 --> 11:07.510]  If it was a law being passed, that would be different.
[11:07.710 --> 11:10.450]  But if it's just a private business, then, you know, let them do whatever they want.
[11:10.450 --> 11:13.950]  But I imagine a law would not be far behind with that kind of sentiment.
[11:14.130 --> 11:15.970]  And certainly, we'd see something like that in this country.
[11:16.150 --> 11:18.230]  Well, hopefully, then the democratic process will hold true.
[11:18.450 --> 11:18.530]  We'll see.
[11:18.670 --> 11:18.810]  Gus?
[11:18.970 --> 11:25.210]  The fact of the matter is, if you look at the behavioral research and the social research on video games and violence, there really is not a correlation.
[11:25.370 --> 11:26.410]  There's not a causal correlation.
[11:26.630 --> 11:29.410]  There may be a correlation, but correlation does not imply causation.
[11:29.410 --> 11:37.130]  So, I just think that I'd really like to see more lawmakers, you know, bone up on what's really going on and stop responding to public hysteria.
[11:37.890 --> 11:38.250]  Yes.
[11:38.250 --> 11:39.390]  You live in Fantasy World, don't you?
[11:39.510 --> 11:39.690]  I do.
[11:40.170 --> 11:41.110]  It's a video game for that.
[11:41.110 --> 11:41.890]  It's nice here.
[11:41.990 --> 11:44.730]  See lawmakers actually respond to real issues.
[11:44.970 --> 11:45.810]  That's going to be an action game.
[11:45.930 --> 11:51.990]  The thing about it is that you can take something that maybe you think is bad and then tie it to something that's even worse, like it's done here, right?
[11:51.990 --> 11:54.930]  Okay, this person played video games and that must have made them violent.
[11:55.250 --> 12:06.410]  In the same way, I mean, back when marijuana was made illegal, one of the poster cases they held was there was this kid who used marijuana, at least on occasion, and he, like, ax-murdered his parents, okay?
[12:07.110 --> 12:11.410]  They neglected to mention the fact that he was also schizophrenic and that might have had something to do with it, but they held that up.
[12:11.470 --> 12:17.530]  So, here in this case, okay, he killed people and he played video games, so it must be connected when there may not really be a correlation.
[12:17.590 --> 12:19.150]  And there could be other things going on in his head.
[12:19.150 --> 12:32.090]  Yeah, I think it's important to get people away from video games, though, voluntarily to make them want to go outside and interact with people in a friendly way, you know, not shoot them, and just basically recognize when something is getting to be a little bit unhealthy,
[12:32.090 --> 12:36.350]  but not by laws, not by legislating it away or by banning it or anything silly like that.
[12:36.450 --> 12:36.830]  Yes, Dotret?
[12:37.330 --> 12:41.370]  This whole banning video games reminds me of something that happened in the United States quite some time ago.
[12:41.550 --> 12:46.710]  They thought banning the sale of alcohol could stop all crime, and to me, this seems to be the exact same thing.
[12:46.710 --> 12:48.190]  I don't think they ever thought it would stop all crime.
[12:48.190 --> 12:53.210]  Some people did, and it seems like it's the same thing all over again.
[12:53.370 --> 12:58.430]  It's just them trying to blame something else except the people who actually are causing these crimes.
[12:58.570 --> 13:03.010]  Yeah, we can draw parallels with drinking, with guns, with video games.
[13:03.150 --> 13:04.070]  Interesting side tidbit.
[13:04.290 --> 13:15.430]  They repealed the prohibition shortly after the Great Depression because, you know, tax revenue, this whole tax revenue thing wasn't getting tapped, and now the same thing is kind of happening with marijuana, right?
[13:15.430 --> 13:20.350]  We're in a depression, and they're talking about basically repealing the prohibition on it in various states, so...
[13:20.350 --> 13:22.450]  All right, Bernie, I'm going to give you the last word on all this.
[13:22.750 --> 13:28.750]  Well, all I can say is the stories that ban video games are going to really feel it in their bottom line.
[13:28.870 --> 13:33.370]  The video game industry now generates more revenue than the motion picture industry.
[13:33.370 --> 13:45.530]  So if they're going to cut themselves out of that large sector of business, then I think they're going to see it in their bottom line and maybe change their minds down the line after the political stuff blows over.
[13:45.910 --> 13:46.530]  All right.
[13:46.690 --> 13:47.750]  We'll keep an eye on that.
[13:48.450 --> 13:50.750]  Okay, we have some special things to talk about tonight.
[13:51.270 --> 13:56.410]  We have a very busy year ahead of us in the hacker world, all kinds of events happening.
[13:56.410 --> 13:58.550]  Some of them are for the first time ever.
[14:00.290 --> 14:05.950]  And the one that we're focusing on at the moment is the one taking place overseas in August.
[14:06.110 --> 14:06.730]  We've mentioned it before.
[14:07.230 --> 14:09.290]  It's called HAR, H-A-R.
[14:09.410 --> 14:10.650]  Who wants to say what HAR stands for?
[14:10.790 --> 14:11.310]  Go ahead, Redhack.
[14:11.370 --> 14:12.130]  Hacking at random.
[14:12.310 --> 14:13.090]  Hacking at random.
[14:13.150 --> 14:13.470]  Very good.
[14:14.010 --> 14:17.670]  We have on the phone with us Kuhn Martens from Amsterdam.
[14:18.010 --> 14:18.490]  Kuhn, are you there?
[14:19.110 --> 14:19.430]  Hello.
[14:19.630 --> 14:20.150]  Yes, I'm here.
[14:20.250 --> 14:20.410]  Hi.
[14:20.650 --> 14:20.890]  Greetings.
[14:21.350 --> 14:24.570]  Now, you're one of the coordinators of Hacking at Random, correct?
[14:24.830 --> 14:25.550]  Yeah, that's right.
[14:26.410 --> 14:28.130]  One of the main organizers.
[14:28.410 --> 14:32.790]  It's taking place August 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th of this year, correct?
[14:33.270 --> 14:33.950]  Exactly, yeah.
[14:34.010 --> 14:37.910]  Four days of technology, ideological debates, and hands-on thinkering.
[14:38.310 --> 14:38.610]  Wow.
[14:38.690 --> 14:42.530]  Now, this happens every four years in the Netherlands, someplace.
[14:43.290 --> 14:44.390]  What was the last one called?
[14:44.630 --> 14:45.330]  What the Hack.
[14:45.450 --> 14:45.990]  What the Hack.
[14:46.090 --> 14:47.990]  And there was HAL 2001 before that.
[14:48.670 --> 14:49.650]  Every four years.
[14:49.650 --> 14:51.070]  And it alternates with the Germans.
[14:51.750 --> 14:57.050]  Tell us something about the outdoor hacker camping experience for people who have never done it before.
[14:57.890 --> 15:03.490]  Well, basically, what we've been doing for the past 20 years, we find a nice field.
[15:03.650 --> 15:08.470]  We managed to find one in the middle of one of the deepest jungles of Holland.
[15:09.750 --> 15:14.230]  We get together there, 2,000, 3,000 hackers on the field.
[15:14.970 --> 15:18.810]  Of course, there will be the necessary Internet uplink.
[15:19.070 --> 15:23.450]  But especially, we will have lots of lectures.
[15:24.050 --> 15:26.830]  We recently put out our call for papers.
[15:27.490 --> 15:29.390]  It mentions three main tracks.
[15:30.130 --> 15:31.670]  That's dealing with data.
[15:31.890 --> 15:35.830]  So that's all about who is collecting what, about whom, and why.
[15:36.090 --> 15:49.350]  And second track, around which we base the lectures, is decentralization, which goes for software as well, but also more fundamental things like decentralization of power grids, whatever.
[15:50.190 --> 16:02.210]  The third track is people and politics, which is basically about empowering people, especially the young hackers today, about empowering them with political tools to actually make a difference.
[16:03.430 --> 16:09.970]  Well, next to that, anything with technology-related things, or technology-inspired, it's all welcome, basically.
[16:10.510 --> 16:11.010]  So, yeah.
[16:11.350 --> 16:13.750]  So three tracks will be going throughout the whole event.
[16:14.230 --> 16:20.350]  Yeah, that's basically the tracks you find in a call for papers, but there's also the category everything else, so...
[16:20.350 --> 16:21.610]  Oh, so there's four tracks.
[16:21.730 --> 16:22.730]  Everything else is the fourth track.
[16:22.970 --> 16:23.630]  Yeah, basically.
[16:23.770 --> 16:26.790]  And then there's, of course, the fifth track, which...
[16:26.790 --> 16:26.990]  Fifth?
[16:27.130 --> 16:27.430]  Oh, boy.
[16:27.630 --> 16:28.330]  This is getting bigger.
[16:28.470 --> 16:29.770]  More like the offline track.
[16:29.990 --> 16:33.790]  It consists of just strolling around the grounds between lectures and in the evenings.
[16:34.870 --> 16:40.870]  Well, it's a beautiful area there, so we're in the middle of nature, but there will be lots of places and spaces to...
[16:40.870 --> 16:45.310]  How do you guys keep finding all these amazing places in such a small country?
[16:45.310 --> 16:48.070]  You know, how many times has this happened now?
[16:48.150 --> 16:48.810]  Four or five times?
[16:48.950 --> 16:49.830]  It's always been in a different place.
[16:50.130 --> 16:53.610]  Actually, outdoor, it's the fifth time, yeah, so...
[16:53.610 --> 16:55.110]  Fifth time, always a different place.
[16:55.190 --> 16:57.830]  It amazes me, too, how we manage to find these places.
[16:58.010 --> 17:01.050]  There's so many beautiful places that even I don't know in this small country.
[17:01.050 --> 17:01.650]  That's right.
[17:02.050 --> 17:09.350]  So, now, for those people that aren't part of all the different speaker tracks, there's so much else to do when you're...
[17:09.350 --> 17:09.610]  Absolutely.
[17:09.750 --> 17:10.730]  ...at an outdoor hacking event.
[17:10.730 --> 17:12.130]  Tell us some of the things that you're planning.
[17:12.870 --> 17:18.310]  Well, for example, of course, there will be lockpickers again.
[17:18.710 --> 17:20.790]  Tool.nl, that's with triple O.
[17:20.930 --> 17:23.970]  They will be holding the Dutch Open Lockpick Championships.
[17:24.870 --> 17:28.390]  A lock-on, it's something they do regularly.
[17:29.570 --> 17:30.930]  Well, of course, there's lectures.
[17:31.150 --> 17:32.530]  There's lots of fun places.
[17:32.670 --> 17:35.890]  There will probably even be an arcade with pinball machines and everything.
[17:36.870 --> 17:39.290]  And lots of areas where you can meet informally.
[17:41.190 --> 17:41.870]  Uh-huh.
[17:42.710 --> 17:48.110]  And I imagine villages of all sorts would just be popping up sporadically in various...
[17:48.110 --> 17:48.630]  Definitely, yeah.
[17:49.010 --> 17:52.050]  I mean, you have all kinds of different villages.
[17:52.370 --> 17:53.790]  One based on nations.
[17:53.930 --> 17:57.470]  One based on favorite operating systems.
[17:58.850 --> 18:00.890]  There will be villages that do...
[18:00.890 --> 18:03.910]  There will also be workshops in all those villages, or not all of them.
[18:03.910 --> 18:14.490]  Some of them, and this will vary from using the soldering iron to do some hardware hacking to, yeah, a Plan 9 workshop, stuff like that.
[18:14.650 --> 18:15.410]  It's, yeah.
[18:15.690 --> 18:20.490]  Well, it's incredible to seeing how these events just sort of rise up out of nothing.
[18:20.490 --> 18:21.290]  You're in a field.
[18:21.310 --> 18:22.470]  You have a forest around you.
[18:22.630 --> 18:24.950]  And then you guys show up, and you have this equipment.
[18:25.230 --> 18:27.270]  And before you know it, there's an electrical grid.
[18:27.410 --> 18:30.810]  There's internet connectivity that is better than anything we have here in the city.
[18:31.750 --> 18:34.070]  And basically, you build your own city.
[18:34.810 --> 18:35.430]  Absolutely, yeah.
[18:35.610 --> 18:37.730]  And then all these people start showing up, and...
[18:37.730 --> 18:39.070]  There's a telephone system, too, Emmanuel.
[18:39.130 --> 18:40.890]  There's a telephone system that you guys...
[18:40.890 --> 18:42.750]  Wireless deck network, yeah.
[18:43.130 --> 18:44.270]  Boy, I wish we had that here.
[18:44.970 --> 18:48.610]  So, now, have you been to the other conferences, the other outdoor conferences?
[18:51.030 --> 18:52.270]  Well, unfortunately, no.
[18:52.530 --> 18:54.770]  Wow, so it's going to be first for you as well?
[18:55.710 --> 18:56.230]  No, no.
[18:56.350 --> 18:58.050]  All you mean in this series, yeah.
[18:58.170 --> 19:00.110]  I have been to What The Heck and Hackers at Large.
[19:00.110 --> 19:00.730]  Okay, all right.
[19:01.270 --> 19:01.670]  Absolutely.
[19:02.370 --> 19:04.570]  So, Hackers at Large, I was merely a visitor.
[19:04.990 --> 19:07.610]  I'm, what the heck, I was a bit more involved.
[19:07.730 --> 19:11.670]  And now, yeah, I'm totally involved, so to speak.
[19:11.910 --> 19:12.170]  Uh-huh.
[19:12.790 --> 19:13.750]  Yeah, but it's great.
[19:13.910 --> 19:16.830]  I mean, we show up a week before the event starts.
[19:16.850 --> 19:20.270]  And already, then, there's a lot of people to help with building up.
[19:20.330 --> 19:22.470]  I mean, it's not like we're doing it on our own.
[19:22.610 --> 19:30.370]  There's literally hundreds of volunteers already a week early to help setting up the tents, making the infrastructure, as you mentioned.
[19:30.650 --> 19:31.950]  And that's a great thing, also.
[19:32.090 --> 19:34.990]  It's a very community-inspired, community-built event.
[19:35.230 --> 19:35.630]  Yes.
[19:35.770 --> 19:50.810]  Well, I mean, on that subject, you're the guys that inspired us to start the whole Hope Series because we saw what you could do with a bunch of volunteers, and just that competence and that spirit, that energy was just waiting to be harnessed in all kinds of places around the world.
[19:51.070 --> 19:52.710]  So, that's going to happen again, for sure.
[19:53.370 --> 19:58.150]  But what we have to do, though, we have to get as many people as possible to actually go over there.
[19:58.390 --> 20:02.650]  Now, I know that airline tickets have gone pretty far down.
[20:02.650 --> 20:07.730]  So, it's not that expensive to go overseas in the middle of the summer as, say, it was a couple of years ago.
[20:08.930 --> 20:11.170]  So, I recommend people check this out.
[20:11.310 --> 20:13.670]  Who here has been to one of the conferences before?
[20:13.770 --> 20:15.270]  Redhack, I think I've seen you at one of them.
[20:15.870 --> 20:16.350]  I have.
[20:16.610 --> 20:18.970]  And Bernie, I can't see you, but I know you've been to one of them.
[20:19.030 --> 20:19.970]  I've been to several of them.
[20:19.990 --> 20:20.250]  Several of them.
[20:20.790 --> 20:22.170]  They're just fantastic.
[20:23.510 --> 20:30.890]  I mean, try to imagine, well, most of our listeners probably aren't familiar with Woodstock, but it's like...
[20:30.890 --> 20:32.070]  Don't be so surprised.
[20:32.070 --> 20:33.910]  I'll bet we have a lot of Woodstock veterans out there.
[20:33.950 --> 20:34.390]  That's true.
[20:34.510 --> 20:35.430]  Well, I wasn't there either.
[20:35.550 --> 20:36.230]  I wasn't even born there.
[20:36.230 --> 20:40.570]  In fact, in the town of Woodstock, I understand our program is aired on loudspeakers in the street.
[20:40.990 --> 20:41.990]  Well, there you go.
[20:42.190 --> 20:43.210]  That's what I heard, all right?
[20:43.450 --> 20:44.430]  It's like a...
[20:44.430 --> 20:45.890]  It's an outdoor event.
[20:47.590 --> 20:49.650]  It's just a huge social scene.
[20:49.790 --> 20:57.510]  There's thousands of hackers from all over the world with large tents where they're exchanging ideas, smaller tents.
[20:57.690 --> 21:00.470]  There's like little communities in the camping area.
[21:00.690 --> 21:03.490]  There's tents that are just nightclubs and bars.
[21:03.850 --> 21:07.870]  There's all kinds of technology demonstrations going on indoors and out.
[21:08.190 --> 21:11.230]  It's a load of fun for several days.
[21:11.410 --> 21:12.570]  And it's in the middle of nowhere.
[21:12.570 --> 21:15.310]  And it's just like a world unto itself.
[21:15.510 --> 21:17.410]  It's really something can't be missed.
[21:17.750 --> 21:21.510]  And what's interesting, too, is you have these, you know, as we mentioned before, villages.
[21:21.630 --> 21:25.690]  So there'll be groups that bring, you know, they'll set up large tents and they'll have people hanging out in them.
[21:26.030 --> 21:29.910]  People will bring art projects that they've done and set those up.
[21:30.450 --> 21:34.410]  So I saw some, I mean, there's some pretty cool outdoor art stuff that people had done last time I was there.
[21:34.550 --> 21:39.850]  I think there was, there was almost, it looked like a garden of like glowing, I don't remember even what they use, like fiber optics and stuff.
[21:39.950 --> 21:41.690]  And it looked like a glowing plant garden.
[21:42.130 --> 21:44.310]  It's just a really, really neat experience.
[21:44.510 --> 21:45.810]  It's absolutely worth the trip.
[21:45.930 --> 21:48.230]  Someone brought the monolith from 2001 that was there.
[21:48.550 --> 21:49.710]  It's, you know, it's...
[21:49.710 --> 21:50.870]  Made noise when you approached it.
[21:50.970 --> 21:52.050]  I think that was a CCC thing.
[21:52.210 --> 21:53.030]  It's four days.
[21:53.490 --> 21:54.130]  It's amazing.
[21:54.250 --> 21:56.070]  You can even come early, you know, help set up.
[21:56.610 --> 21:58.570]  And it's just absolutely worth it.
[21:58.690 --> 21:59.350]  Yeah, that's the other thing.
[21:59.350 --> 22:04.730]  And Kun, can you tell us something about if people want to get involved with the volunteering, being a part of the staff?
[22:04.790 --> 22:05.390]  How can they do that?
[22:06.330 --> 22:06.930]  Sure, yeah.
[22:07.030 --> 22:11.430]  Well, basically, it's all organized around the wiki we have.
[22:11.550 --> 22:15.010]  So it's wiki.heart2009.org.
[22:17.030 --> 22:21.550]  All the areas that need some volunteering, that they are basically open there.
[22:21.730 --> 22:26.510]  And people can make themselves an account and say, okay, I'll help out there.
[22:26.510 --> 22:32.930]  And, well, basically, if people show up early, as I said the week before, we start building up.
[22:33.010 --> 22:40.390]  If people show up early, there's always hands to be used in building up tents and other stuff.
[22:41.290 --> 22:43.390]  So just come over and help out.
[22:43.550 --> 22:44.350]  That's basically...
[22:44.350 --> 22:52.670]  Breaking down afterwards and just being there to help out, being an angel of some sort, just able to help with any situation coming up.
[22:52.970 --> 22:57.830]  And, I mean, to pull off an event of this kind of scale, I think everyone...
[22:57.830 --> 23:00.370]  I mean, I know that the tickets, when you buy it, it says volunteer ticket.
[23:00.510 --> 23:01.270]  Everyone's a volunteer.
[23:01.450 --> 23:02.630]  Because, really, without...
[23:02.630 --> 23:06.870]  If people don't pitch in and help, it's hard to make something so awesome.
[23:07.250 --> 23:07.390]  Right.
[23:07.550 --> 23:14.990]  On the subject of tickets, I understand that there is a special deal, a special discount for people that register early.
[23:15.510 --> 23:17.770]  And the deadline for that has been extended, correct?
[23:18.470 --> 23:18.910]  Absolutely.
[23:19.110 --> 23:22.450]  We did that, especially for you, because we were going to be on tonight.
[23:22.450 --> 23:28.450]  So we would have closed the early birth deadline early this month.
[23:28.450 --> 23:30.910]  But it's extended until April 14th.
[23:30.970 --> 23:35.590]  So people who want to go and order the ticket, they get the discount.
[23:35.910 --> 23:41.650]  I think it's about 10%, 20% on the price that it will be after the 14th.
[23:42.210 --> 23:51.250]  And, well, especially for 2600 listeners, there's a special discount code that you can enter in the special box on the ticket shop.
[23:51.250 --> 23:55.150]  And if you enter 2600 there, you'll even get an extra discount.
[23:55.370 --> 23:55.490]  Wow.
[23:55.590 --> 23:59.890]  So if you enter 2600 into that little code there, you'll get even more of a discount.
[24:00.370 --> 24:00.950]  That's great.
[24:01.090 --> 24:12.570]  And, of course, I understand the importance of getting as many people registering as possible as early as possible, because you need to shell out all kinds of money to get the thing going, to get equipment and all that.
[24:12.710 --> 24:24.690]  So if you're thinking of going, and we really recommend that you do, no matter what part of the world you're in, it's most beneficial for you to register early and help the conference be as strong as possible.
[24:24.890 --> 24:26.910]  It'd be really a good thing to do.
[24:26.950 --> 24:30.110]  I mean, if you've never been to a conference like this, absolutely go.
[24:30.770 --> 24:33.070]  You never know what will happen in four years.
[24:33.230 --> 24:35.270]  So just, you know what's happening now, go.
[24:35.870 --> 24:36.530]  Enjoy it.
[24:36.590 --> 24:37.850]  It'll be a wonderful experience.
[24:37.850 --> 24:40.850]  If you've gone to one in the past, you know what it's like.
[24:40.910 --> 24:42.570]  So you'll obviously want to go again.
[24:42.570 --> 24:50.150]  Yes, and those of you who have never gone before, this is, you know, this is one of those experiences that you have to have in your life.
[24:50.330 --> 24:51.550]  So don't hold back.
[24:51.690 --> 24:56.830]  And you may never see airfare as cheap as it is this summer in the future, I don't think.
[24:57.230 --> 25:00.050]  So take advantage of the plunging economy.
[25:00.570 --> 25:04.350]  Sometimes when you can actually do something and have a lot of fun at the same time.
[25:04.550 --> 25:07.550]  Now, Kun, I know that you're still taking speaker submissions.
[25:07.710 --> 25:08.030]  Is that correct?
[25:08.030 --> 25:09.330]  Absolutely, yeah.
[25:09.450 --> 25:14.010]  I think it's still five weeks until the speaker submission closes.
[25:15.050 --> 25:29.510]  So yeah, definitely if people are interested in talking about something that might interest the rest of the hacker world, go over to www.hard2009.org and there's a link to the call for papers.
[25:29.510 --> 25:33.330]  And it details the entire process of submissions and all.
[25:34.670 --> 25:38.650]  Okay, well, any other addresses you want to give out?
[25:38.890 --> 25:42.470]  Obviously, the website www.hard2009.org.
[25:42.950 --> 25:46.210]  That's H-A-R-2-0-0-9.org for all the information.
[25:46.490 --> 25:47.450]  You have a wiki there.
[25:47.570 --> 25:50.070]  You have all kinds of other features on the website.
[25:50.150 --> 25:51.270]  Anything else that you want to give out?
[25:51.690 --> 25:55.410]  Well, if they go to the site, that's all people need to find out everything.
[25:55.850 --> 25:57.590]  From there, it's linked, so...
[25:57.590 --> 25:58.430]  Okay, great.
[25:58.790 --> 26:01.270]  I think you'll see just about everybody from off the hook there.
[26:01.270 --> 26:01.950]  At least I hope so.
[26:02.010 --> 26:03.170]  I'm not sure what we're going to do in the studio.
[26:03.330 --> 26:04.510]  I hope so, yeah.
[26:04.590 --> 26:09.110]  We'll be having a hard FM also, so 24-7 radio coverage.
[26:09.410 --> 26:09.870]  Oh, really?
[26:09.930 --> 26:10.550]  Tell us about that.
[26:11.170 --> 26:11.530]  Sorry?
[26:11.690 --> 26:14.570]  You're going to have just radio on the internet 24-7?
[26:14.770 --> 26:18.270]  Well, yeah, we're going to have an FM transmitter on the terrain probably.
[26:18.550 --> 26:25.570]  And also via the internet streaming 24-7, like interviews, discussions, and also spherical.
[26:27.030 --> 26:29.410]  Yeah, so impressions, everything.
[26:30.410 --> 26:30.750]  Interesting.
[26:30.850 --> 26:31.150]  Yes, Gus?
[26:31.190 --> 26:33.230]  I was just wondering if there was a discount for speakers.
[26:35.590 --> 26:37.770]  No, there's no discount for speakers, basically.
[26:38.970 --> 26:41.030]  Everyone is a volunteer, even the speakers.
[26:41.230 --> 26:44.570]  I mean, even we from the organization, we were the first to buy our tickets.
[26:45.010 --> 26:46.070]  Yeah, I understand that.
[26:46.070 --> 26:46.410]  We're all equal.
[26:46.570 --> 26:49.950]  Everyone who's coming is the same as the next guy who's coming.
[26:50.170 --> 26:50.410]  Yeah.
[26:50.610 --> 26:53.950]  And you get a good quality of speaker that way.
[26:54.050 --> 27:02.670]  You get people who really want to be there, not people who are just simply farming their speaking skills out and getting all their expenses paid for, things like that.
[27:02.750 --> 27:06.610]  So that's the difference between the hacker world and the security world and the corporate world.
[27:06.610 --> 27:09.770]  So that's how I know it's going to be a great event.
[27:10.490 --> 27:14.290]  Well, Kuhn, I want to thank you so much for all your efforts so far.
[27:14.290 --> 27:19.190]  And I know that you have a lot coming up that's going to really be something for you.
[27:19.370 --> 27:21.890]  So anything we can do to help, obviously, we're here for you.
[27:22.410 --> 27:23.250]  That's super, yeah.
[27:23.250 --> 27:24.050]  All right.
[27:24.190 --> 27:25.030]  And we look forward to August.
[27:25.210 --> 27:29.110]  Again, the conference is taking place August 13th through 16th, 2009.
[27:30.010 --> 27:32.950]  Is there a specific location you can tell us?
[27:32.950 --> 27:36.610]  I know it's in the middle of nowhere, but maybe coordinates of some sort?
[27:37.090 --> 27:39.230]  Well, there are coordinates on the website.
[27:39.490 --> 27:43.190]  So I can tell you the name of the place.
[27:43.290 --> 27:47.070]  It is Vierhouten, but that's a really small place that probably no one knows.
[27:48.710 --> 27:51.230]  But the details are all on the website.
[27:51.230 --> 27:56.050]  Also, how to travel, we're setting that up nearby airports, stuff like that.
[27:57.010 --> 27:57.450]  Great.
[27:57.750 --> 27:59.550]  Well, again, thanks so much for doing this.
[27:59.750 --> 28:00.510]  And best of luck.
[28:00.710 --> 28:05.070]  We'll be certainly following this throughout the rest of the year.
[28:05.510 --> 28:06.550]  And best of luck to you.
[28:07.070 --> 28:07.310]  All right.
[28:07.430 --> 28:07.590]  Thanks.
[28:07.730 --> 28:08.730]  Looking forward to seeing you.
[28:08.990 --> 28:09.270]  Okay.
[28:09.410 --> 28:09.690]  Take care.
[28:09.890 --> 28:18.250]  And that was Kuhn Martens talking to us from Holland about the upcoming Hacking at Random conference.
[28:18.250 --> 28:22.310]  That's H-A-R 2009.org is the website.
[28:22.610 --> 28:24.870]  And is anybody here definitely not going?
[28:26.250 --> 28:26.630]  Whoa.
[28:26.750 --> 28:26.850]  Whoa.
[28:26.910 --> 28:27.730]  Two people definitely not going?
[28:27.830 --> 28:28.010]  Okay.
[28:28.070 --> 28:30.110]  First of all, Gus, how can you say such a thing?
[28:30.210 --> 28:30.990]  I'm too broke.
[28:31.250 --> 28:31.790]  I would.
[28:31.850 --> 28:36.510]  I mean, seriously, if there was even a speaker discount, I ought to go and do some papers and stuff over there, but...
[28:36.510 --> 28:36.770]  Uh-huh.
[28:37.410 --> 28:39.530]  So it's not the airline fare you're worried about?
[28:41.150 --> 28:41.910]  I just...
[28:41.910 --> 28:46.930]  Because the speaker, what it costs is well below the already cheap prices of airfare.
[28:46.930 --> 28:47.950]  I will look into that again.
[28:48.050 --> 28:48.230]  Yeah.
[28:48.570 --> 28:49.450]  It's also finding places.
[28:49.610 --> 28:49.910]  Rob T.
[28:50.050 --> 28:51.450]  Firefly, you also raised your hand.
[28:51.710 --> 28:52.090]  Yeah, I don't...
[28:52.090 --> 28:52.930]  What gives, man?
[28:53.070 --> 28:55.330]  I don't think I'm going to be able to make it out there this time around.
[28:55.450 --> 28:57.150]  Is this also a financial issue, or...?
[28:57.150 --> 29:03.370]  It's mostly a financial issue, a scheduling issue, but my girlfriend is going, so if that counts, she'll tell me what happens.
[29:03.870 --> 29:05.230]  I hope she'll drag you along, too.
[29:05.690 --> 29:07.270]  If she can fit me in her luggage, maybe.
[29:07.490 --> 29:08.890]  Bernie, did I see you raise your hand?
[29:09.230 --> 29:09.970]  I did not.
[29:10.150 --> 29:10.990]  I planned to attend.
[29:11.190 --> 29:12.050]  Must be somebody else.
[29:12.690 --> 29:12.850]  Yeah.
[29:12.990 --> 29:13.290]  All right.
[29:13.510 --> 29:13.930]  It's a good event.
[29:13.930 --> 29:18.950]  So you're going to go there, and we're going to try and corral as many people as possible to head over there as well.
[29:19.190 --> 29:19.990]  It's going to be an event.
[29:20.110 --> 29:23.270]  If you've never been to one of these before, you definitely have to be a part of this one.
[29:23.290 --> 29:24.430]  I will definitely be there.
[29:24.430 --> 29:24.910]  I'm ready.
[29:25.030 --> 29:25.670]  I'm good to go.
[29:25.770 --> 29:26.630]  You already booked your tickets.
[29:26.730 --> 29:29.090]  You already bought tickets from horror and plane tickets and all that.
[29:29.150 --> 29:30.150]  Yeah, I bought tickets to Europe.
[29:30.150 --> 29:33.830]  I haven't gotten tickets to the Netherlands yet, but those are on their way.
[29:33.990 --> 29:35.890]  Yeah, well, it's easy to get around that place.
[29:35.890 --> 29:37.330]  Yeah, it's like a walking distance.
[29:37.330 --> 29:45.850]  Okay, you know, we've had a bunch of these, as Hakun said, there were five outdoor events in Holland alone.
[29:45.990 --> 29:50.330]  And, of course, we have the CCC camp that happens alternating with the Dutch ones.
[29:50.770 --> 30:00.070]  Never in America, though, has there been a hacker event that has taken place outdoors until now.
[30:00.870 --> 30:13.830]  On the phone with us now is TourCon organizer, Hikari, who's going to explain to us how the United States is actually going to have something called TourCamp over the 4th of July weekend.
[30:14.710 --> 30:15.570]  Hikari, are you there?
[30:16.210 --> 30:16.810]  Yes, I am.
[30:17.090 --> 30:20.310]  Well, first of all, congratulations on even attempting this.
[30:21.950 --> 30:23.710]  Now, it sounds very European.
[30:23.710 --> 30:27.290]  You guys actually, what are you, in an abandoned missile base or something?
[30:27.290 --> 30:27.990]  What's that all about?
[30:27.990 --> 30:30.350]  Yeah, it's a Titan-1 missile silo.
[30:30.670 --> 30:32.430]  A Titan-1 missile silo.
[30:32.650 --> 30:33.050]  Wow.
[30:34.610 --> 30:36.190]  That's so European-sounding.
[30:36.430 --> 30:37.330]  What does that mean?
[30:38.090 --> 30:40.690]  Do I even want to know what is a Titan-1 missile?
[30:41.270 --> 30:42.790]  Well, the missiles are gone, right?
[30:42.890 --> 30:43.730]  The missiles are out.
[30:44.270 --> 30:44.930]  Yeah, yeah.
[30:44.950 --> 30:49.210]  It's an abandoned Titan-1 missile silo that was sold for auction back in the 60s.
[30:50.030 --> 30:50.430]  Okay.
[30:50.430 --> 31:00.270]  And it's been mostly stripped, but it's basically a whole underground base that was built around the Cold War period to be kind of like our first strike against the Russians.
[31:01.210 --> 31:03.770]  And at some point, they decided to dismantle this, huh?
[31:04.390 --> 31:04.970]  Yeah, yeah.
[31:05.130 --> 31:09.690]  It was their first prototype, and they only operated for a couple years, and then they came out with the Titan-2 and Titan-3.
[31:09.870 --> 31:11.110]  And so they just sold these for auction.
[31:11.530 --> 31:11.850]  Uh-huh.
[31:11.850 --> 31:15.530]  So, now, how did you manage to secure this space for a hacker conference?
[31:16.590 --> 31:19.910]  Well, it turns out that a friend of mine is actually trying to start a data center there.
[31:20.550 --> 31:25.870]  And so he purchased the land, and he offered it up to me to throw a conference there.
[31:26.610 --> 31:27.010]  Wow.
[31:27.310 --> 31:27.550]  Okay.
[31:27.850 --> 31:29.170]  So tell us something about TourCamp.
[31:29.770 --> 31:33.710]  It's going to run from July 2nd through July 5th, correct?
[31:34.290 --> 31:34.810]  Yeah, yeah.
[31:34.870 --> 31:35.290]  Four days.
[31:35.770 --> 31:36.130]  Okay.
[31:36.490 --> 31:39.230]  And in the state of Washington, right?
[31:40.030 --> 31:40.430]  Yeah.
[31:41.490 --> 31:44.810]  Okay, any more specific information you can give us, location, or anything like that?
[31:45.150 --> 31:47.830]  Yeah, it's located near Moses Lake, Washington.
[31:47.830 --> 31:49.690]  It's about three hours outside of Seattle.
[31:49.870 --> 31:50.330]  Okay.
[31:50.890 --> 31:58.790]  And, yeah, the general idea is it's going to be really similar to the camps in Europe and stuff.
[31:58.910 --> 32:01.030]  So we're going to have two tracks of talks.
[32:01.490 --> 32:05.730]  The first day is 20 minutes, then 50 minutes on the second day, and two days of workshops.
[32:06.630 --> 32:12.890]  And so it's supposed to be, you know, a pretty free-flowing sort of conference, a wide range of subjects.
[32:13.250 --> 32:15.930]  And we're dedicating the whole weekend to just workshops.
[32:15.930 --> 32:19.010]  And so it's kind of more like, you know, fireside chats.
[32:19.330 --> 32:19.830]  Uh-huh.
[32:19.870 --> 32:24.330]  Yeah, it sounds kind of like kind of an intimate gathering of a whole bunch of people.
[32:24.570 --> 32:26.350]  But now, let me see if I understand correctly.
[32:26.350 --> 32:28.730]  You said the first day, the talks will be 20 minutes in length?
[32:29.370 --> 32:29.770]  Yeah.
[32:29.770 --> 32:31.250]  And the second day, they'll be how long?
[32:31.950 --> 32:32.590]  50 minutes.
[32:32.710 --> 32:33.090]  50 minutes.
[32:33.190 --> 32:33.750]  Okay, that's interesting.
[32:33.750 --> 32:35.050]  I haven't heard of it done that way.
[32:35.250 --> 32:37.490]  And you'll have two tracks going throughout the whole thing?
[32:37.990 --> 32:38.650]  Yeah, yeah.
[32:38.830 --> 32:39.350]  Okay, great.
[32:40.150 --> 32:41.730]  What's the capacity of this place?
[32:43.170 --> 32:45.530]  The whole property is actually 57 acres.
[32:46.130 --> 32:46.490]  Okay.
[32:46.490 --> 32:52.770]  And I believe that the whole base is actually, most of that space is actually underground.
[32:53.070 --> 32:55.550]  And there's three separate missile silos.
[32:55.710 --> 33:03.890]  Each one has, like, you know, crew quarters off the side and antenna array towers and all sorts of little nooks and crannies in the silo.
[33:04.010 --> 33:06.970]  And we're not quite sure how much of the actual silo we'll be able to use.
[33:07.030 --> 33:09.910]  Yeah, I was wondering about that.
[33:10.050 --> 33:13.730]  Yeah, the actual silo, is that where the talks are going to take place?
[33:13.730 --> 33:15.150]  Are people going to be sleeping there?
[33:15.150 --> 33:17.810]  What exactly goes on inside the silo?
[33:18.530 --> 33:23.810]  I think that right now what it seems like we're going to do is most people will just camp out above ground.
[33:24.230 --> 33:27.110]  And then we'll have a couple events below ground.
[33:27.910 --> 33:35.950]  Like, we're trying to set up the lockpicking Gringa Warrior Challenge down in the silo, maybe have CTF and a few other sorts of things.
[33:36.450 --> 33:44.870]  We're just not quite sure how much of the silo will be entirely usable, just because there's lots of areas where you could walk through a door and suddenly drop 100 feet.
[33:44.870 --> 33:49.150]  And then just the liability issues with that are kind of interesting at this point.
[33:49.350 --> 33:50.230]  I can imagine.
[33:50.610 --> 33:52.970]  You must be going through some special kind of hell there.
[33:54.190 --> 33:59.310]  Now, these missiles that used to be there, just not to harp on this too much, what kind of missiles were they?
[33:59.430 --> 34:01.350]  Were they have nuclear warheads or something on them?
[34:02.090 --> 34:02.990]  Yeah, I believe so.
[34:03.070 --> 34:07.390]  So did they maybe leave any part of them behind that might be of concern to us?
[34:07.870 --> 34:11.690]  No, no, they've pretty much scrapped anything that's useful out of the silos.
[34:13.190 --> 34:16.270]  Well, yeah, but nuclear waste isn't very useful, so they might have left that behind.
[34:16.510 --> 34:17.990]  That's what I'm worried about.
[34:19.050 --> 34:21.330]  Well, we'll have to go through it with the Geiger counter later.
[34:21.470 --> 34:21.770]  Would you?
[34:21.890 --> 34:24.490]  Yeah, that would make me feel a lot better before I actually set foot on the place.
[34:25.090 --> 34:30.450]  So, okay, tell us something about how people can get involved as far as you're looking for volunteer help.
[34:31.570 --> 34:37.110]  Yeah, actually, the main thing we're looking for right now is just for people to take charge and start up campsites.
[34:38.590 --> 34:41.490]  So we actually have a sign-up form on the website right now.
[34:41.610 --> 34:41.970]  Okay.
[34:42.170 --> 34:51.630]  And we're looking for people to basically say that they'll commit to organizing a campsite and that they can maybe get at least 10 people to be involved in their campsite.
[34:51.630 --> 35:09.870]  And so the general idea is that, you know, they can maybe provide some communal food, some communal shelter, and maybe some events like a party or different things like that just to kind of, you know, create the campsites kind of similar to how HAAR and the CCC camp is set up.
[35:10.110 --> 35:11.210]  Now, have you...
[35:11.210 --> 35:14.690]  Do you have any examples of campsites that have already come forward?
[35:16.090 --> 35:16.810]  Yeah, yeah.
[35:16.810 --> 35:20.990]  We have a couple different people.
[35:20.990 --> 35:24.650]  Well, like, for example, Nauticon, which is on later, has already signed up for a campsite.
[35:25.430 --> 35:30.490]  We have some local Burning Man people that are kind of unusually interested in helping out with this.
[35:31.570 --> 35:48.210]  And we've just been chatting with other conferences and other people like, for example, Tool and some other hacker organizations out there that want to kind of set up a camp and maybe provide, like, for example, Tool wanted to provide their lockpicking village sort of thing.
[35:48.370 --> 35:48.530]  Right.
[35:48.930 --> 35:50.450]  And different things like that.
[35:50.450 --> 35:51.130]  Uh-huh.
[35:51.170 --> 35:53.950]  Yeah, it's a must at any hacker event is the lockpicking village.
[35:54.150 --> 35:54.510]  So...
[35:54.510 --> 35:55.010]  Oh, yeah.
[35:55.150 --> 35:55.770]  Good to hear that.
[35:55.870 --> 35:56.730]  That'll be there as well.
[35:57.670 --> 36:01.090]  Now, how do people register to actually be at the conference?
[36:02.270 --> 36:04.290]  We have it all set up on the website right now.
[36:04.450 --> 36:04.670]  Okay.
[36:04.670 --> 36:08.310]  And we actually just set up a 2600 discount code.
[36:08.410 --> 36:08.890]  Oh, wow.
[36:08.950 --> 36:09.730]  For 10% off.
[36:10.010 --> 36:10.650]  How about that?
[36:10.670 --> 36:11.210]  I didn't know about this.
[36:11.730 --> 36:12.230]  Oh, okay.
[36:12.230 --> 36:13.150]  Everyone's doing this now.
[36:14.310 --> 36:16.070]  So, first of all, where's the website?
[36:16.910 --> 36:18.270]  It's tourcamp.org.
[36:18.430 --> 36:21.250]  T-O-O-R-C-A-M-P dot O-R-G.
[36:21.910 --> 36:22.230]  Yep.
[36:22.230 --> 36:22.650]  Okay.
[36:23.510 --> 36:27.290]  And do you have deadlines as to when people have to register by or anything like that?
[36:28.190 --> 36:28.590]  Yeah.
[36:28.750 --> 36:31.850]  Basically, every month up until the conference, it'll be going up $50.
[36:32.390 --> 36:32.790]  Okay.
[36:34.170 --> 36:38.110]  So, yeah, I guess that there's a few more days left in the month before it goes up.
[36:38.470 --> 36:38.850]  Okay.
[36:38.850 --> 36:42.270]  But the discount code will be good up until the conference.
[36:42.670 --> 36:43.070]  Okay.
[36:43.130 --> 36:45.890]  And that gets you 10% off whatever the price is at the moment.
[36:46.130 --> 36:46.310]  Yeah.
[36:46.610 --> 36:46.810]  Okay.
[36:46.890 --> 36:47.410]  That sounds good.
[36:47.950 --> 36:54.850]  Now, Hikari, tell us, how involved have you been in the past with organizing hacker events?
[36:57.450 --> 37:00.970]  Well, I've been in charge of organizing the past 10 tour cons.
[37:01.510 --> 37:02.450]  10 tour cons.
[37:02.610 --> 37:02.810]  Wow.
[37:03.010 --> 37:03.170]  Yeah.
[37:03.250 --> 37:07.730]  And a tour con is, of course, the conference that takes place in San Diego or Seattle, right?
[37:08.210 --> 37:08.830]  Yeah, yeah.
[37:09.510 --> 37:11.930]  Yeah, we just started doing one in Seattle the past two years.
[37:12.650 --> 37:13.010]  Okay.
[37:13.590 --> 37:17.110]  And, yeah, tour con is going on a tour con 11 this year in September.
[37:17.470 --> 37:18.090]  Oh, it is?
[37:18.190 --> 37:18.330]  Okay.
[37:18.730 --> 37:20.430]  And which city is it taking place in this year?
[37:21.170 --> 37:22.070]  In San Diego, still.
[37:22.230 --> 37:22.750]  Okay, great.
[37:24.050 --> 37:26.910]  So, this is your first outdoor event.
[37:27.030 --> 37:30.330]  Actually, it's the first outdoor event in the United States involving computer hackers, right?
[37:30.430 --> 37:33.270]  Do you think that's going to be a special challenge because of that?
[37:34.430 --> 37:34.790]  Yeah.
[37:35.030 --> 37:35.470]  Yeah, definitely.
[37:35.470 --> 37:35.570]  Definitely.
[37:36.550 --> 37:47.990]  Because it's the first time, we're still kind of unsure as far as how many people are going to come, how involved people will be, and just like all the things that we can really pull off in the first year.
[37:48.390 --> 37:50.450]  So, it'll be an interesting learning experience.
[37:50.630 --> 37:54.850]  And I hope that there's other people that start doing events like these as well.
[37:54.850 --> 38:06.990]  Absolutely, because we always were saying that to do an outdoor event, equivalent to what the Dutch or the Germans do, would be almost impossible in this country, just because of all the regulations and the expense.
[38:07.210 --> 38:11.510]  And, of course, just getting around, traveling to remote areas.
[38:11.990 --> 38:14.970]  Are any of these really big challenges for you?
[38:16.530 --> 38:24.050]  I think that because our location is very remote, and there aren't very many people nearby, it's not that difficult.
[38:24.790 --> 38:29.490]  And I think that because we're in a really small town, they kind of appreciate any sort of business we can bring in.
[38:29.630 --> 38:30.910]  That's what Woodstock said, too.
[38:31.810 --> 38:32.250]  Yeah.
[38:32.850 --> 38:39.250]  So, we still have no idea if there's going to be some legal problems, you know, like police stopping by or anything like that.
[38:39.250 --> 38:43.870]  But I think that it'll be really hard for anybody to really notice what we're doing there, just because it's so remote.
[38:44.130 --> 38:50.310]  Well, yeah, but we're also telling everybody about it on a major radio station and throughout the hacker world, so they'll know about it.
[38:50.370 --> 38:53.950]  I think everybody's going to know about it, and I think it'll be a blast.
[38:54.010 --> 38:54.290]  Yes, Mike.
[38:54.330 --> 38:56.250]  I'm just curious, how does one get to this place?
[38:56.410 --> 38:56.650]  Yeah.
[38:58.770 --> 39:08.130]  Well, currently, we're trying to set up some rideshare forums, and so we're hoping that a lot of people will just kind of, you know, rent a car from the airport and drive out from Seattle.
[39:08.850 --> 39:18.270]  We're also looking into possibly chartering a flight from a major airport, just because there's a large airport within about 15 minutes of the campsite.
[39:19.010 --> 39:28.070]  And the only problem is that they only do commercial flights, and they don't actually, you know, like a... it's actually an alternate landing for the space shuttle.
[39:28.250 --> 39:31.230]  It's an alternate landing for the space shuttle up in Washington?
[39:31.550 --> 39:31.950]  Wow.
[39:32.010 --> 39:34.310]  Yeah, it's a massive... it's Grant County National Airport.
[39:34.570 --> 39:36.010]  You can actually see it from space.
[39:36.010 --> 39:36.990]  It's a pretty big airport.
[39:37.170 --> 39:37.950]  Grand County, you say?
[39:37.950 --> 39:38.330]  The only problem is it.
[39:38.550 --> 39:38.810]  Okay.
[39:38.970 --> 39:39.770]  Grant County, yeah.
[39:39.810 --> 39:40.390]  Grant County, okay.
[39:40.970 --> 39:44.330]  And so the only problem is that the only flights we can really get in there are chartered ones.
[39:44.490 --> 39:44.950]  Uh-huh.
[39:45.190 --> 39:46.970]  And so we've been looking into that.
[39:47.150 --> 39:51.690]  We might possibly do something kind of like an accident on a plane from a major airport.
[39:51.990 --> 39:54.070]  But do commercial airliners fly into that airport?
[39:55.090 --> 39:59.210]  No, they... yeah, they don't actually have like a real commercial terminal or anything like that.
[39:59.290 --> 39:59.550]  Interesting.
[40:00.110 --> 40:00.450]  Yeah.
[40:00.870 --> 40:03.970]  So a huge airport with no commercial flights going in, just charter flights.
[40:04.530 --> 40:04.930]  Yeah.
[40:04.930 --> 40:04.970]  Yeah.
[40:05.130 --> 40:06.670]  I'd like to check that out while I'm there as well.
[40:07.510 --> 40:07.710]  Yeah.
[40:08.150 --> 40:10.950]  Okay, any other words you want to get out to the people?
[40:11.130 --> 40:13.830]  Any ways people can participate that you'd like them to know about?
[40:14.870 --> 40:20.230]  Um, I guess, uh, well, we're accepting our call for papers right now as well as a call for workshops.
[40:21.030 --> 40:24.250]  And so, um, we'd appreciate any sort of submissions for that.
[40:24.410 --> 40:25.750]  Also campsite organizers.
[40:26.190 --> 40:30.350]  Um, and, uh, and then we're also looking for just volunteers to help set things up.
[40:30.850 --> 40:36.690]  Um, like it'd be great to set up a phone system, uh, maybe a radio station kind of like the hard people and such.
[40:36.850 --> 40:37.410]  Oh yeah, definitely.
[40:37.730 --> 40:37.910]  Definitely.
[40:38.270 --> 40:43.470]  Yeah, pretty much any, any crazy ideas that people have, uh, feel free to email us, go on the website and shoot me an email.
[40:43.650 --> 40:48.770]  And I hope a lot of people from overseas come to this as well so that we can sort of see how the Americans do it.
[40:49.170 --> 41:03.830]  And, uh, also people who have been to the previous outdoor events in Europe, it'd be great to, uh, to have your expertise, uh, as far as, as far as this goes, uh, just to, uh, I guess have some, um, uh, some similarities and, and learn from previous experiences and things like that.
[41:04.370 --> 41:06.290]  Uh, so Hikari, uh, best of luck again.
[41:06.410 --> 41:12.490]  The website is, uh, tour camp, www.tourcamp, T-O-O-R-C-A-M-P.O-R-G.
[41:12.710 --> 41:19.110]  Uh, tour camp takes place July 2nd through July 5th in the state of Washington in the middle of nowhere on a missile silo.
[41:19.770 --> 41:20.810]  That's going to be something.
[41:20.970 --> 41:21.870]  That's going to be amazing.
[41:22.170 --> 41:24.530]  And, uh, for July, I don't think you can beat that.
[41:24.690 --> 41:26.270]  Talk about fireworks, a missile silo.
[41:26.270 --> 41:28.310]  You can't really get bigger fireworks than that.
[41:28.750 --> 41:31.570]  And hopefully nobody will bring a Titan missile that they have lying around.
[41:31.910 --> 41:36.250]  Uh, but there's nothing more patriotic than firing off a Titan missile on July 4th.
[41:36.290 --> 41:37.450]  Yeah, I've heard that said.
[41:37.830 --> 41:39.550]  Let's, uh, I never tried to prove it though.
[41:40.210 --> 41:40.910]  Um, okay.
[41:40.970 --> 41:41.650]  Well, best of luck to you.
[41:41.750 --> 41:43.810]  We'll be, uh, checking in as, as the weeks progress.
[41:44.670 --> 41:45.170]  All right.
[41:45.230 --> 41:46.130]  Thanks a lot for having me.
[41:46.210 --> 41:46.370]  All right.
[41:46.430 --> 41:46.730]  Take care.
[41:47.730 --> 41:51.830]  So folks in the room, who's planning on going to tour camp?
[41:52.270 --> 41:53.050]  Oh, come on.
[41:53.130 --> 41:54.290]  No one's planning on going to tour camp?
[41:54.610 --> 41:55.290]  I don't know yet.
[41:55.390 --> 41:55.730]  I haven't thought of it.
[41:55.730 --> 41:56.390]  It's not in Europe.
[41:56.710 --> 41:57.070]  4th of July.
[41:57.150 --> 41:58.370]  4th of July is my dad's birthday.
[41:58.590 --> 41:58.890]  I can't.
[41:58.890 --> 41:59.890]  So bring him along.
[42:00.370 --> 42:02.270]  It'll be, it'll be the most memorable birthday.
[42:02.270 --> 42:03.210]  He hacks in his own way.
[42:03.270 --> 42:03.750]  There you go.
[42:03.850 --> 42:04.230]  There you go.
[42:04.330 --> 42:04.810]  Not right.
[42:04.990 --> 42:06.590]  I have one thing to say.
[42:06.830 --> 42:10.170]  How many people listening to this show have actually been inside a missile silo?
[42:10.690 --> 42:12.550]  That should be a reason enough to go.
[42:12.750 --> 42:12.870]  Exactly.
[42:12.870 --> 42:13.170]  That's a good point.
[42:13.170 --> 42:13.210]  Exactly.
[42:13.370 --> 42:13.510]  Yeah.
[42:13.630 --> 42:13.850]  It's Bernie.
[42:13.910 --> 42:14.330]  How about you?
[42:14.810 --> 42:15.990]  I've been in a missile silo.
[42:16.150 --> 42:16.590]  Well, okay.
[42:16.610 --> 42:17.710]  That wasn't a question I was asking.
[42:18.030 --> 42:21.290]  It was a, it was a, it was a Nike missile silo outside of Philadelphia.
[42:21.550 --> 42:21.710]  All right.
[42:21.830 --> 42:22.890]  Titan one missile silo.
[42:23.030 --> 42:23.350]  Yeah.
[42:23.650 --> 42:25.350]  A Nike missile silo.
[42:25.870 --> 42:26.090]  Yeah.
[42:26.430 --> 42:26.750]  Yeah.
[42:27.470 --> 42:32.490]  I don't, but are you, I, are you at least considering going to tour camp?
[42:32.650 --> 42:36.690]  I am considering it all that would be rather full August or a rather full summer.
[42:36.970 --> 42:40.070]  Uh, all these, all these conferences, but I'll see what I can see.
[42:40.170 --> 42:41.110]  It's, it's July 4th.
[42:41.170 --> 42:42.090]  I mean, you just go out there.
[42:42.230 --> 42:43.270]  Is it a weekend July 4th?
[42:43.350 --> 42:43.850]  I'm pretty sure it is.
[42:43.990 --> 42:45.310]  It's actually July 4th is on a Saturday.
[42:45.590 --> 42:45.790]  Okay.
[42:45.850 --> 42:46.410]  That's perfect.
[42:47.270 --> 42:48.450]  Saturday in the missile silo.
[42:48.590 --> 42:49.490]  You could hum that song.
[42:49.510 --> 42:52.150]  Well, it would have been nicer if it was on a weekday and then I had the day off, but.
[42:52.350 --> 42:52.590]  Uh-huh.
[42:53.250 --> 42:54.670]  The thing is, it's in this country.
[42:54.670 --> 42:57.610]  So those excuses about expensive airfare, just do not fly.
[42:57.770 --> 42:58.390]  No pun intended.
[42:58.870 --> 43:00.790]  I don't think it's sort of an interesting thing to think of.
[43:00.890 --> 43:07.590]  This is the first outdoor, I mean, maybe not the first outdoor computer camp because I feel like, uh, Foo Camp, which I think is run by O'Reilly, haven't they done outdoor?
[43:07.710 --> 43:09.210]  And I was going to ask Mike, what about Ruckus?
[43:09.370 --> 43:09.570]  Okay.
[43:09.610 --> 43:13.730]  But when you say run by O'Reilly, so it takes away the hacker aspect of it, you know?
[43:13.930 --> 43:16.490]  But yeah, I think you said the computer, you said outdoor computer conference at one point.
[43:16.530 --> 43:17.690]  I was like, that's a little bit odd to say.
[43:17.690 --> 43:20.450]  Uh, well, if I said that, I mean hacker conference.
[43:20.450 --> 43:20.650]  You meant hackers, okay.
[43:20.650 --> 43:21.190]  Yeah, I don't know.
[43:21.270 --> 43:23.690]  But did Ruckus have an outdoor computer component at any point, or?
[43:23.750 --> 43:25.150]  Uh, I wouldn't call it the same thing.
[43:25.290 --> 43:25.770]  Not the same thing?
[43:25.930 --> 43:31.250]  Yeah, there are plenty of outdoor things, plenty of outdoor things, but as far as actually computer hackers camping outdoors.
[43:31.250 --> 43:32.790]  And then there was Lollapalooza?
[43:33.230 --> 43:34.410]  Not, no, not that.
[43:34.530 --> 43:34.550]  No?
[43:34.650 --> 43:35.670]  Not at all, no.
[43:36.350 --> 43:43.410]  Okay, uh, joining us now to round out this trifecta of hacker events coming up, uh, in, uh, upcoming months.
[43:43.570 --> 43:48.790]  This one is coming up next month, and we're talking about our friends over in Cleveland who run Nauticon.
[43:49.090 --> 43:52.370]  Joining us on the phone now are Froggy and Tiger.
[43:52.650 --> 43:53.230]  Are you guys with us?
[43:53.410 --> 43:53.890]  Absolutely.
[43:54.110 --> 43:54.470]  Yes, sir.
[43:54.790 --> 43:55.230]  How you doing?
[43:55.610 --> 43:56.030]  Doing great.
[43:56.390 --> 43:58.410]  So, uh, okay, you're doing it again?
[43:58.550 --> 44:01.450]  This is Nauticon number... This is going to be number six.
[44:01.590 --> 44:02.610]  Number six, okay.
[44:03.050 --> 44:08.710]  Taking place April 16th through 19th in the fine city of Cleveland, Ohio.
[44:09.570 --> 44:11.150]  And a bunch of us went there last year.
[44:11.410 --> 44:13.530]  And I know, Bernie, you're planning on going again this year.
[44:13.890 --> 44:15.630]  Yes, I had great fun last year.
[44:15.750 --> 44:16.410]  It was a really good con.
[44:16.730 --> 44:17.050]  Uh-huh.
[44:17.670 --> 44:18.210]  Yeah, me too.
[44:18.290 --> 44:19.510]  It was, it was, it was definitely interesting.
[44:20.270 --> 44:23.610]  Uh, uh, you know, interesting time in Cleveland looking for places that are open late.
[44:24.310 --> 44:30.950]  I wasn't too successful at that, but the, the, the important thing is that the conference is what was fun and, uh, had a lot of great talks.
[44:31.770 --> 44:33.730]  And, um, well, Froggy, tell us, how do you do it?
[44:33.790 --> 44:34.790]  How do you put it together every year?
[44:35.250 --> 44:41.570]  Well, it, uh, again, like your event, it just stems from a lot of really great support from our community and a lot of really dedicated volunteers.
[44:42.010 --> 44:48.290]  Um, and also just the, uh, the, uh, the participants themselves giving us their feedback.
[44:48.650 --> 44:51.730]  Um, one of the biggest complaints, as you mentioned last year was the, uh, the venue.
[44:51.910 --> 44:55.870]  And so we actually moved venues and we're at a new hotel with much better space.
[44:56.010 --> 45:01.410]  It's actually around food and drinks and all, all that kind of good stuff that you'd expect in a major city.
[45:01.690 --> 45:03.230]  Food after 9 PM on a Friday.
[45:03.350 --> 45:03.510]  Really?
[45:03.670 --> 45:04.070]  Absolutely.
[45:04.230 --> 45:04.550]  Awesome.
[45:04.930 --> 45:05.330]  Yeah.
[45:05.630 --> 45:05.710]  Yeah.
[45:05.810 --> 45:05.810]  Yeah.
[45:05.870 --> 45:07.470]  Imagine trying to go get a drink at 10 PM.
[45:07.490 --> 45:08.310]  You can do that now.
[45:08.490 --> 45:08.830]  Wow.
[45:09.270 --> 45:15.230]  Um, but yeah, we have all kinds of great, great presentations lined up, whole bunch of new, uh, games and events.
[45:15.410 --> 45:20.950]  And, uh, we're really trying this, we're, we're, we're, we're really trying hard this year to really involve our community.
[45:21.490 --> 45:24.110]  Um, one of our rooms is actually dedicated to hacker spaces.
[45:24.390 --> 45:30.690]  Uh, I believe Bernie S is going to be coming up with a group from Philly that's involved with the, uh, uh, the hacker space down there.
[45:31.010 --> 45:34.510]  But, um, we have hacker spaces from all over the world, really getting involved with us this year.
[45:34.590 --> 45:36.130]  And it's, it's, it's, it's incredibly exciting.
[45:36.310 --> 45:37.950]  Is there a hacker space in Cleveland?
[45:38.550 --> 45:39.650]  Uh, not yet.
[45:40.150 --> 45:47.630]  Um, I and a bunch of other really dedicated people, some of whom I'm just, uh, just met recently are going to be working on doing just such a thing.
[45:48.430 --> 45:48.830]  Amazing.
[45:49.090 --> 45:49.810]  Not a con is over.
[45:49.970 --> 45:50.150]  Right.
[45:50.210 --> 45:50.550]  Of course.
[45:50.870 --> 45:51.010]  Yeah.
[45:51.110 --> 45:52.150]  You do this every year.
[45:52.170 --> 45:55.590]  So it must, uh, take a fair amount of, of your time just organizing this.
[45:55.870 --> 45:56.250]  It really does.
[45:56.470 --> 46:09.350]  I mean, uh, you know, even though our volunteers contribute a lot, a lot of their time and efforts, uh, it does take a lot of, uh, time and, and money, of course, from both my wife and I to make this happen, but it's, it's worth it because it's, it really is one of the best parties,
[46:09.550 --> 46:11.610]  uh, of the year for me.
[46:11.710 --> 46:15.030]  And, uh, I, I just absolutely love, absolutely love doing it.
[46:15.730 --> 46:17.470]  Now, how can people help out?
[46:17.570 --> 46:18.330]  How can people get involved?
[46:18.810 --> 46:20.930]  Well, the first thing to do is just show up.
[46:21.350 --> 46:24.870]  Um, we already have a pretty good pre-registration list already.
[46:25.190 --> 46:36.110]  Uh, but we'll be having games and events, everything from video game contests to, uh, musical jam sessions to, uh, we're going to be doing live streaming radio throughout the length of the event.
[46:36.770 --> 46:39.610]  Um, tool will be coming to do some, uh, lockpicking events with us.
[46:39.730 --> 46:43.470]  We're going to have the, uh, amateur radio station, a whole bunch of great things.
[46:43.610 --> 46:46.990]  And on top of that, uh, North America is currently only running demo party.
[46:48.010 --> 46:48.410]  Okay.
[46:48.490 --> 46:49.610]  Tell us what a demo party is.
[46:49.610 --> 46:58.970]  Well, uh, demos are essentially, uh, 3d audio and visual real-time rendered, uh, demonstrations to, uh, it's basically executable digital art.
[46:59.450 --> 47:01.790]  Um, these contests are really big over in Europe.
[47:01.910 --> 47:04.790]  Assembly in Finland pulls thousands and thousands of people every year.
[47:05.330 --> 47:09.590]  Uh, block party, which is a kind of our sister event, uh, is going to be in its third year.
[47:09.810 --> 47:18.990]  And last couple of years, we've had some really great, uh, demos from, uh, people all over the, uh, North America scene and hopefully looking for more this year.
[47:20.250 --> 47:20.690]  Okay.
[47:20.690 --> 47:23.030]  Uh, tell us the, uh, exact venue.
[47:23.250 --> 47:23.730]  Where is this?
[47:23.830 --> 47:29.330]  Uh, well, we are going to be at the Wyndham near Playhouse Square in downtown Cleveland still.
[47:29.590 --> 47:33.930]  Uh, it's right in our theater district and right next to our ballparks and all that kind of stuff.
[47:34.530 --> 47:39.570]  Um, and it's just, it's just a fantastic venue with a lot of great things going for it.
[47:39.890 --> 47:40.330]  Okay.
[47:41.010 --> 47:45.430]  Uh, and I imagine it's too late to actually, uh, register to speak at this thing.
[47:45.530 --> 47:47.010]  You probably have a full lineup by now, right?
[47:47.090 --> 47:47.310]  Yes.
[47:47.490 --> 47:50.010]  We try to keep our, uh, crap together, so to speak.
[47:50.370 --> 47:55.830]  Um, and, uh, that closed in, in February, but we always try to open up our CFP really early.
[47:56.190 --> 48:01.170]  So once Not A Con is over, give us a month or two and we'll probably have it open, uh, in preparation for Not A Con 7.
[48:01.690 --> 48:02.050]  Incredible.
[48:02.950 --> 48:05.590]  Uh, Bernie, what are you looking forward to in Cleveland this year?
[48:06.130 --> 48:10.010]  There are just an amazing number of, uh, talks going on.
[48:10.110 --> 48:11.630]  Are there three tracks, Froggy?
[48:11.730 --> 48:12.090]  Is that right?
[48:15.670 --> 48:20.750]  Uh, of workshops and hands-on stuff and more loose kinds of things.
[48:21.110 --> 48:25.730]  I encourage our listeners to, uh, to visit Not A Con dot org.
[48:25.890 --> 48:28.890]  That's N-O-T-A-C-O-N dot org.
[48:29.130 --> 48:37.290]  And click on Speakers and you will see dozens of really interesting, uh, uh, descriptions of talks that are going on at Not A Con.
[48:37.470 --> 48:39.130]  So, uh, it's really worth checking out.
[48:39.410 --> 48:45.870]  Um, I encourage, uh, people to, to register and attend this event because, uh, the first one I went to was last year and I'm hooked.
[48:46.070 --> 48:49.210]  It's got that friendly Midwestern feeling to it.
[48:49.810 --> 48:55.830]  Um, the people are just very down-to-earth there and it was just, it was just a good, good feeling being there amongst a lot of hackers.
[48:55.990 --> 48:57.150]  Bernie, that's what you said about Dayton.
[48:57.290 --> 48:59.350]  You said the people are friendly and down-to-earth there as well.
[48:59.510 --> 49:02.070]  Which, uh, which Ohio City is better?
[49:03.030 --> 49:03.570]  I don't know.
[49:03.630 --> 49:04.250]  It's a close call.
[49:04.390 --> 49:04.510]  Yeah.
[49:04.910 --> 49:06.170]  And I'm listening, mind you.
[49:08.110 --> 49:08.470]  Amazing.
[49:08.950 --> 49:14.590]  Um, okay, well, Froggy, best of luck for, for Not A Con this year and, uh, hopefully a bunch of us will, will make it out there as well.
[49:14.810 --> 49:15.030]  Okay.
[49:15.110 --> 49:21.390]  I just wanted to mention too, since it is the thing to do, uh, we do have a coupon code of 2600 through the end of the week.
[49:21.450 --> 49:21.770]  Wow.
[49:21.930 --> 49:23.010]  You know, we should do this for hope.
[49:24.650 --> 49:29.910]  Anybody who registers between now and the end of the day Friday and uses 2600 can get 10% off of registration.
[49:30.250 --> 49:30.530]  Wow.
[49:30.750 --> 49:31.570]  That's, that's high pressure.
[49:31.730 --> 49:33.630]  All of a sudden it's like an industry standard now.
[49:33.850 --> 49:36.370]  Hacker, uh, discounts for 2600 mentions.
[49:36.850 --> 49:41.570]  Um, okay, Froggy, hopefully I'll, I'll see you out there this year and, uh, hopefully a lot of our listeners will make it out as well.
[49:41.990 --> 49:45.630]  Um, um, again, and taking place on April, uh, what is it again?
[49:45.770 --> 49:47.530]  April, uh, 16th through the 19th.
[49:47.590 --> 49:48.650]  16th through the 19th.
[49:48.890 --> 49:49.750]  And that's over a weekend.
[49:50.610 --> 49:55.230]  And, uh, the, the website is Not A Con, N-O-T-A-C-O-N dot O-R-G.
[49:55.830 --> 50:01.190]  And you can register online, but most of all, just show up and, uh, have a blast.
[50:01.670 --> 50:03.810]  All right, Froggy, and, uh, say hi to Tiger for me as well.
[50:03.930 --> 50:04.170]  All right.
[50:04.250 --> 50:04.490]  Will do.
[50:04.630 --> 50:05.110]  Thanks so much.
[50:05.210 --> 50:05.430]  All right.
[50:05.490 --> 50:05.810]  Take care.
[50:06.010 --> 50:06.250]  All right.
[50:06.350 --> 50:06.450]  Bye.
[50:06.610 --> 50:10.090]  It's going to be, uh, an action-packed summer for Hacker events.
[50:10.290 --> 50:13.550]  Now, okay, guys, Cleveland is close.
[50:13.590 --> 50:14.470]  It's not far.
[50:15.110 --> 50:18.350]  It is so cheap to get, you can take a bus, you can, you can hitch.
[50:18.870 --> 50:22.210]  And, uh, it's, it's the cheapest one yet that you don't even have to camp outside.
[50:22.210 --> 50:23.230]  They have hotels there.
[50:23.390 --> 50:23.970]  They have electricity.
[50:24.150 --> 50:24.770]  They have all that stuff.
[50:24.770 --> 50:31.330]  So I'm not going to ask you to raise your hands because everyone's looking, you know, like kind of guilty, but, uh, all right.
[50:31.470 --> 50:31.930]  Rob T.
[50:32.030 --> 50:33.070]  Firefly, you're going to this one.
[50:33.230 --> 50:34.330]  Yes, this one I am going to.
[50:34.370 --> 50:34.950]  This one you are going to.
[50:34.950 --> 50:35.210]  Okay.
[50:35.370 --> 50:36.890]  Now, why, why are you going to this one?
[50:37.190 --> 50:40.990]  Um, this one in particular, uh, partly because it's so nearby and easy to get to.
[50:41.190 --> 50:43.530]  And also, uh, one or two of my friends are presenting.
[50:43.870 --> 50:47.930]  Uh, a lot of my friends are going and I'm just gonna, I'm, I've never been to Cleveland before, so I'm just gonna.
[50:48.010 --> 50:49.610]  What, you didn't go last time or the time before that?
[50:49.610 --> 50:52.810]  I didn't go last time or the time before, sadly, but, uh, I'm going to rectify that.
[50:52.870 --> 50:55.810]  You're in for something that's really something.
[50:55.970 --> 50:57.130]  Mike, first of all, let me get out the phone.
[50:57.250 --> 50:58.410]  I have a couple of minutes to take phone calls.
[50:58.490 --> 50:59.650]  212-209-2900.
[51:00.110 --> 51:04.550]  Mike went last year and, uh, you seem to have... I, I really enjoyed Nauticon.
[51:04.730 --> 51:05.290]  I want to be clear.
[51:05.330 --> 51:08.770]  It's a, it's a really great conference, but, but I really did not enjoy Cleveland.
[51:09.090 --> 51:09.410]  Yeah.
[51:09.570 --> 51:11.710]  Well, what did you not enjoy the most about Cleveland?
[51:12.830 --> 51:13.150]  Um...
[51:13.150 --> 51:13.830]  It's sad.
[51:13.910 --> 51:16.550]  It's just, uh, the, the people there, they're so depressed.
[51:16.790 --> 51:18.030]  Like, you go into...
[51:18.030 --> 51:18.650]  Yeah, but we cheer them up.
[51:18.750 --> 51:20.150]  We show up in New York.
[51:20.350 --> 51:23.050]  You go into a bar and be like, hey, what is there to do in Cleveland?
[51:23.230 --> 51:25.030]  And the people are there like... Oh, you did not do that.
[51:25.130 --> 51:27.550]  You did not go into a bar and say, hey, what's there to do in Cleveland?
[51:27.810 --> 51:31.970]  Can you imagine You know, it's like any place else.
[51:32.190 --> 51:34.590]  If you go to Flint, Michigan, that's going to be a depressing place.
[51:34.690 --> 51:35.510]  If you go to Detroit, that's good.
[51:35.510 --> 51:37.270]  Not that Cleveland's anything like either of those places.
[51:37.670 --> 51:38.990]  But, you know, it's the people.
[51:38.990 --> 51:40.130]  And there are good people there.
[51:40.210 --> 51:43.650]  We went to the location of the 2600 meeting, and that was a really cool place.
[51:44.070 --> 51:47.870]  There was a... there's a pretty cool sort of artsy bar where the artsy folks hang out.
[51:47.910 --> 51:49.050]  I forget exactly where it is.
[51:49.110 --> 51:50.310]  I think it's probably near one of the colleges.
[51:50.370 --> 51:51.510]  Got to find your own cool places.
[51:51.570 --> 51:53.710]  Yeah, it's where we went after the Obama inauguration.
[51:53.750 --> 51:54.430]  It was pretty good.
[51:54.430 --> 51:55.090]  It's good training.
[51:55.210 --> 51:56.670]  What if you find yourself on Staten Island one day?
[51:56.790 --> 51:57.530]  You got to figure out.
[51:58.470 --> 51:59.130]  Only kidding.
[51:59.950 --> 52:00.470]  Yes, Red Hack.
[52:00.510 --> 52:01.970]  And really, it's about the conference anyway.
[52:02.110 --> 52:03.950]  If the conference is really good, then it's worth going to.
[52:04.050 --> 52:07.090]  I mean, we're talking about going to Europe to the middle of a field.
[52:07.310 --> 52:08.950]  I doubt that there's much to do...
[52:08.950 --> 52:09.310]  And forest.
[52:09.790 --> 52:14.350]  Yeah, around the field and forest or any less than there would be in Cleveland.
[52:15.130 --> 52:16.630]  Yeah, it's the people that you're with.
[52:16.750 --> 52:17.490]  It's the quality.
[52:17.710 --> 52:21.470]  And having gone to Nauticon once, I can say that it's definitely top-notch quality.
[52:21.470 --> 52:24.790]  So for that reason alone, it is worth checking out.
[52:25.170 --> 52:27.910]  And Cleveland is certainly a very safe place.
[52:27.910 --> 52:31.110]  You're not in the middle of the Antarctic or something.
[52:31.290 --> 52:32.250]  You're near civilization.
[52:32.490 --> 52:37.270]  So take some chances and go to these places and have fun and live life.
[52:37.370 --> 52:38.790]  That's what we're trying to get people to do.
[52:38.910 --> 52:41.890]  212-209-2900 is our phone number right now.
[52:42.010 --> 52:42.430]  Take a chance.
[52:42.430 --> 52:42.930]  Give us a call.
[52:43.050 --> 52:48.910]  Tell us what's on your mind, either in the hacker world or maybe some feedback as to something you just heard.
[52:49.970 --> 52:52.170]  Let's see if there's people out there willing to talk to us.
[52:52.590 --> 52:53.130]  Good evening.
[52:53.290 --> 52:53.970]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:55.230 --> 52:55.850]  Speak up, please.
[52:55.970 --> 52:56.330]  Yes, go ahead.
[52:56.390 --> 52:56.670]  You're on.
[52:57.330 --> 52:58.110]  Oh, I'm on the air.
[52:58.210 --> 52:58.890]  You're on the air.
[52:58.970 --> 52:59.150]  Yes.
[53:00.870 --> 53:02.410]  Hi, this is the computer show, right?
[53:02.630 --> 53:03.270]  No, it's not.
[53:03.370 --> 53:04.050]  That's on next.
[53:04.550 --> 53:05.910]  Call back in a few minutes.
[53:06.290 --> 53:06.650]  Good evening.
[53:06.870 --> 53:07.770]  You're on... Oh, boy.
[53:07.790 --> 53:08.370]  Here we go again.
[53:09.150 --> 53:09.610]  Well, you know what?
[53:09.610 --> 53:10.530]  We need those deck phones.
[53:10.610 --> 53:11.810]  That's what we need from the Europeans.
[53:11.950 --> 53:12.250]  Good evening.
[53:12.410 --> 53:13.210]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:14.230 --> 53:14.990]  Speak up, please.
[53:15.130 --> 53:15.890]  I can barely hear you.
[53:16.730 --> 53:17.590]  Manuel, can you hear me?
[53:17.650 --> 53:17.970]  Yeah.
[53:18.230 --> 53:18.390]  Okay.
[53:18.590 --> 53:19.530]  I'm talking to the mouthpiece there.
[53:19.750 --> 53:20.010]  Thank you.
[53:20.110 --> 53:20.370]  Thank you.
[53:20.470 --> 53:20.650]  All right.
[53:20.670 --> 53:21.110]  What's on your mind?
[53:21.530 --> 53:22.330]  Real quick question.
[53:23.110 --> 53:27.330]  I'm not really computer-hipped or savvy, but this lock-picking thing.
[53:27.410 --> 53:27.730]  Yes.
[53:27.790 --> 53:31.250]  Are these physical locks or are these like computer algorithms?
[53:31.450 --> 53:32.610]  No, they're very physical locks.
[53:33.170 --> 53:43.430]  This is how you learn how different locks work from the Europeans, from the Americans, all these experts that can teach you all kinds of interesting things about any lock you could possibly imagine.
[53:43.810 --> 53:44.070]  Wow.
[53:44.310 --> 53:44.470]  Yeah.
[53:44.630 --> 53:49.210]  These people have a lot of skill, and they're drawn to the hacker world because it's another form of hacking.
[53:49.810 --> 53:50.030]  Okay.
[53:50.210 --> 53:52.190]  And another quick question, if you don't mind.
[53:52.410 --> 53:52.630]  Uh-huh.
[53:52.630 --> 53:55.410]  I'm thinking of buying a system.
[53:55.850 --> 53:57.430]  Is a laptop better than PC?
[53:57.690 --> 53:58.810]  And if so, what type of laptop?
[53:58.810 --> 53:59.070]  Okay.
[53:59.070 --> 54:00.490]  That's a personal computer question.
[54:00.490 --> 54:03.570]  So call those guys after 8 o'clock, and they'll be happy to help you.
[54:03.690 --> 54:04.070]  Yes, that's right.
[54:04.410 --> 54:04.690]  No?
[54:04.870 --> 54:05.810]  You're just waving your hands for no reason.
[54:05.870 --> 54:06.050]  Okay.
[54:06.290 --> 54:08.090]  Let's see if we can take one more call quickly.
[54:08.530 --> 54:09.070]  Good evening.
[54:09.210 --> 54:10.110]  You're on off the hook.
[54:10.850 --> 54:11.430]  Hello there.
[54:11.550 --> 54:11.770]  Hi.
[54:11.930 --> 54:12.050]  What's on your mind?
[54:12.050 --> 54:13.110]  Do you want to lower my radio?
[54:13.150 --> 54:13.670]  Lower your radio.
[54:13.790 --> 54:13.910]  Yes.
[54:14.130 --> 54:14.330]  Okay.
[54:14.570 --> 54:16.310]  Quick two questions for you.
[54:16.310 --> 54:20.510]  First one is, I'm a Verizon DSL customer.
[54:20.610 --> 54:23.550]  My computer got hit by a virus the other day.
[54:23.870 --> 54:28.770]  So I have gone through all the load-ins and everything like that.
[54:29.250 --> 54:39.550]  And one thing I discovered is, is that once you have your drivers on your computer running, you don't need to put in the Verizon CD, CD-ROM.
[54:39.730 --> 54:44.130]  You know, your computer automatically communicates with the Verizon DSL.
[54:44.130 --> 54:47.870]  Well, so one question, and I have two, I have another question on it.
[54:47.990 --> 54:49.570]  So you're going to have to make it fast because we're out of time.
[54:50.030 --> 54:50.050]  Okay.
[54:50.050 --> 55:00.530]  Why, why do, why does, why do you not actually need the Verizon CD when, you know, when the computer can operate without it?
[55:01.230 --> 55:02.710]  I read, you're raising your hand this time?
[55:02.830 --> 55:03.510]  You actually want to say something?
[55:03.690 --> 55:03.770]  Go ahead.
[55:03.930 --> 55:11.070]  Not all computers have the necessary drivers, and as such, they have a CD making sure that their users, no matter who it is, is able to get proper access.
[55:11.210 --> 55:11.590]  Thank you.
[55:11.710 --> 55:12.550]  Another quick question.
[55:12.590 --> 55:12.850]  Very quick.
[55:12.850 --> 55:18.250]  Where can you buy Microsoft Word at a discount price that's, like, better than Staples?
[55:19.590 --> 55:21.910]  I don't like the open source kind of thing.
[55:21.930 --> 55:22.230]  Yeah.
[55:22.850 --> 55:26.670]  It's kind of hard to come up with a place right off the top of our heads.
[55:28.010 --> 55:29.330]  You should use OpenOffice.
[55:29.470 --> 55:30.390]  It's free and free.
[55:30.970 --> 55:31.370]  Yes.
[55:31.730 --> 55:33.210]  With that, we're out of time, folks.
[55:33.470 --> 55:36.530]  We want to thank everybody for calling in, for being a part of the show.
[55:36.530 --> 55:38.350]  So, our email address...
[55:38.750 --> 55:39.750]  Someone turn down that phone.
[55:40.190 --> 55:41.090]  O-T-H.
[55:42.090 --> 55:43.040]  At 2600.com.
[55:44.170 --> 55:45.170]  We'd love to hear from you.
[55:45.650 --> 55:46.330]  See you next week.
[55:46.390 --> 55:46.550]  Good night.