[00:12.030 --> 00:14.590]  And that wraps it up for today's newscast.
[00:14.910 --> 00:18.950]  From Pacifica Station KPFK in Los Angeles, I'm Aura Bogado.
[00:31.180 --> 00:34.960]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:35.160 --> 00:37.880]  It's 7 o'clock time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:30.210 --> 02:32.390]  And giving to everybody the program is Off the Hook.
[02:32.470 --> 02:34.810]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:35.510 --> 02:37.090]  Joined tonight by Red Hat.
[02:37.370 --> 02:37.630]  Hello.
[02:38.210 --> 02:38.730]  Not Kevin.
[02:39.210 --> 02:39.630]  Hello.
[02:39.770 --> 02:40.070]  Rob T.
[02:40.250 --> 02:40.690]  Firefly.
[02:40.950 --> 02:41.350]  Good evening.
[02:41.550 --> 02:41.990]  Voltaire.
[02:42.150 --> 02:42.270]  Hi.
[02:42.450 --> 02:43.010]  Dot Rhett.
[02:43.230 --> 02:43.530]  Greetings.
[02:43.870 --> 02:44.190]  Gus.
[02:44.410 --> 02:44.910]  Oh, hi.
[02:45.050 --> 02:45.410]  Michael.
[02:45.850 --> 02:46.030]  Hi.
[02:46.190 --> 02:46.910]  And Bernie S.
[02:47.030 --> 02:47.630]  down there in Philadelphia.
[02:47.910 --> 02:48.430]  Just call me Michael.
[02:48.470 --> 02:48.770]  Greetings.
[02:49.090 --> 02:49.210]  Greetings.
[02:49.970 --> 02:50.730]  Be glad.
[02:50.850 --> 02:51.470]  That's all I called you.
[02:51.990 --> 02:54.530]  Greetings, Bernie, from New York to Philadelphia.
[02:55.250 --> 02:57.010]  And welcome, everybody, to the show.
[02:57.270 --> 03:00.130]  It's another exciting edition of the program.
[03:00.430 --> 03:08.430]  And tonight's especially exciting because it's week one, the first leg, the first leg of our spring fundraiser.
[03:08.830 --> 03:13.670]  And this is, yeah, this is always a momentous occasion because it means we survived another year.
[03:13.670 --> 03:20.050]  And we're here talking about all kinds of technical issues, hackers in the news, having all sorts of fun like that.
[03:20.170 --> 03:20.370]  Voltaire.
[03:20.510 --> 03:21.790]  It's a shame that the Groundhog...
[03:21.790 --> 03:22.950]  Why is your mic not working?
[03:23.130 --> 03:23.510]  I don't know.
[03:24.110 --> 03:24.670]  Keep talking.
[03:24.930 --> 03:27.090]  I was going to say, it's a shame the Groundhog did not see it.
[03:27.190 --> 03:27.630]  No, it's not working at all.
[03:27.650 --> 03:27.970]  It's a conspiracy.
[03:28.250 --> 03:29.610]  You want to share that microphone with him?
[03:29.710 --> 03:30.630]  No, the joke's over.
[03:30.970 --> 03:31.290]  Well, yeah.
[03:31.430 --> 03:31.990]  Well, okay.
[03:32.010 --> 03:32.710]  I think it's just beginning.
[03:33.290 --> 03:34.650]  That mic should go in for repair.
[03:34.790 --> 03:35.230]  That's no good.
[03:35.470 --> 03:35.690]  All right.
[03:35.710 --> 03:36.030]  I'm sorry.
[03:37.250 --> 03:37.490]  Okay.
[03:38.110 --> 03:39.290]  Groundhogs, say jokes next week.
[03:39.770 --> 03:40.090]  Groundhogs...
[03:40.090 --> 03:40.390]  What?
[03:40.390 --> 03:40.670]  God, no.
[03:41.390 --> 03:42.070]  It's May.
[03:42.470 --> 03:42.870]  Gus.
[03:42.970 --> 03:46.850]  And this is a great example of why we need your help, is because we need a new mic.
[03:47.590 --> 03:49.030]  Yeah, but that was working before.
[03:49.190 --> 03:49.930]  I don't know why it's not working.
[03:49.970 --> 03:50.530]  Help us buy a new mic.
[03:50.690 --> 03:51.630]  Yeah, exactly.
[03:52.230 --> 03:53.550]  The old mic is...
[03:53.550 --> 03:54.710]  I am not for sale, okay?
[03:54.930 --> 03:55.930]  No, you're Michael now.
[03:56.110 --> 03:57.210]  No, you're defunct.
[03:57.890 --> 03:58.290]  Okay.
[03:58.530 --> 03:59.270]  Insults aside.
[03:59.950 --> 04:02.810]  Any news that we want to focus upon this before we get down to business?
[04:03.450 --> 04:04.250]  Anything happening?
[04:04.730 --> 04:05.130]  Bernie?
[04:05.370 --> 04:05.670]  Nothing?
[04:05.730 --> 04:05.990]  Yes.
[04:06.250 --> 04:06.730]  Okay, go ahead.
[04:06.790 --> 04:07.990]  There are several things happening.
[04:08.030 --> 04:08.610]  Well, tell us.
[04:10.390 --> 04:17.050]  There is an event next week, which many of us, listeners, have gone to, and many of us on the show have gone to.
[04:17.510 --> 04:25.750]  The Dayton Ham Mansion is next weekend, which is probably one of the country's largest gathering of geeks.
[04:27.110 --> 04:34.630]  Several tens of thousands of radio freaks, not just ham radio operators, but anybody who's interested in communications.
[04:34.630 --> 04:41.910]  There's an awful lot of foam freaks that go to the... or reformed or retired foam freaks that go to the Dayton Ham Mansion.
[04:42.190 --> 04:43.290]  And if people want to...
[04:43.290 --> 04:48.990]  It's next Friday, Saturday, and Sunday in Dayton, Ohio, a town that we've come to know and love.
[04:49.110 --> 04:56.970]  And for people who want to find out more about it, the website is hamvention.org.
[04:56.970 --> 05:02.470]  This has nothing to do with the swine flu, so, you know, no masks are necessary.
[05:02.470 --> 05:05.150]  All right, stop blaming pigs, because it's not their fault.
[05:05.990 --> 05:06.810]  And, yes, Red Hack.
[05:06.850 --> 05:09.450]  By next week, you mean the 15th, 16th, and 17th, right?
[05:09.510 --> 05:10.590]  Not this upcoming weekend.
[05:10.630 --> 05:11.050]  That's correct.
[05:11.170 --> 05:11.490]  I'm sorry.
[05:11.590 --> 05:12.390]  Thank you for correcting it.
[05:13.570 --> 05:13.890]  Yes.
[05:14.150 --> 05:14.390]  All right.
[05:14.390 --> 05:14.630]  Weekend.
[05:14.770 --> 05:16.610]  So, cancel the travel plans you may have just made now.
[05:17.510 --> 05:19.650]  And, yeah, it's a week from the coming weekend coming up.
[05:20.270 --> 05:22.610]  And further incentive, folks, I'm not going to be there this year.
[05:22.770 --> 05:26.130]  So, if that's been keeping you away, this is...
[05:26.130 --> 05:27.670]  Here's your green light to head down there.
[05:27.730 --> 05:30.790]  Bernie will be there, as well as a number of other people.
[05:30.790 --> 05:34.370]  Yeah, I just couldn't swing it this year, because there are so many things going on.
[05:35.470 --> 05:36.770]  And, well, yeah, hopefully.
[05:36.830 --> 05:37.690]  Hopefully next time.
[05:37.830 --> 05:40.470]  But there are all kinds of other hacker events going on this year, as well.
[05:40.690 --> 05:43.310]  And we'll be giving you front row seats to all of them, hopefully.
[05:44.030 --> 05:45.670]  But, yeah, it's great fun.
[05:45.670 --> 05:48.050]  I do encourage people to go if they have not gone there before.
[05:48.890 --> 05:51.070]  And, you know, I kind of like Ohio, for some reason.
[05:51.110 --> 05:51.790]  I'm not sure why.
[05:52.170 --> 05:53.450]  It's the Waffle House, isn't it?
[05:53.470 --> 05:54.810]  It might be the Waffle House, but it might be the people.
[05:54.810 --> 05:55.490]  I think it's the people.
[05:55.710 --> 05:56.850]  I do like people there.
[05:56.910 --> 05:57.750]  There aren't very many of them.
[05:57.790 --> 05:58.210]  That's the thing.
[05:58.270 --> 06:00.090]  In cities like Cleveland and Dayton, you don't see very many.
[06:00.090 --> 06:02.310]  But they're there, and they're nice when you find them.
[06:03.590 --> 06:04.770]  Okay, anything else, Bernie?
[06:06.090 --> 06:08.110]  Well, there's some news stories, but I don't know if you just wanted...
[06:08.110 --> 06:09.890]  Oh, yeah, National Train Week.
[06:10.230 --> 06:11.450]  National Train Week?
[06:11.770 --> 06:13.330]  National Train Week is coming up.
[06:13.510 --> 06:17.350]  All right, well, sort of veering off our usual topic, but go ahead, tell us about National Train Week.
[06:18.210 --> 06:21.950]  National Train Week is, well, this coming Saturday.
[06:23.070 --> 06:25.390]  I don't know, I guess this is the National Train Week.
[06:25.850 --> 06:27.330]  Maybe it's the following...
[06:27.330 --> 06:29.550]  What are we supposed to do for National Train Week?
[06:29.550 --> 06:48.670]  Well, the nearest local event for listeners to WBI is, strangely, in Philadelphia, where at 30th Street Station, Amtrak will be showing off a lot of unusual train equipment they don't generally put on public display.
[06:48.670 --> 06:53.070]  There'll be several different kinds of cars available for you to board and look at.
[06:54.410 --> 06:58.090]  You'll be able to meet the crews for different kinds of cars.
[06:58.590 --> 07:01.730]  There'll be all kinds of displays set up for anybody who's a train nut.
[07:02.670 --> 07:17.030]  You can come to... just do a web search for National Train Week in Philadelphia, in Amtrak, and you'll find out everything that's going on this coming Saturday, this coming Saturday, at 30th Street Station in Philadelphia.
[07:17.030 --> 07:19.970]  So I know there's a lot of... for some reason, why is it a manual?
[07:20.050 --> 07:28.030]  There seems to be a lot of overlap between train and subway fanatics and hackers and phone freaks.
[07:28.110 --> 07:29.050]  Is it about the switching?
[07:29.210 --> 07:38.610]  I think it has to do with the machinery and with having a system work somehow, things coordinated to not run into each other.
[07:38.790 --> 07:40.670]  It is all programming, in a sense.
[07:40.670 --> 07:47.150]  Weren't the first people to call themselves hackers were, at MIT in the 1950s, people that were playing with model trains?
[07:47.230 --> 07:47.910]  Model trains, yeah.
[07:48.210 --> 07:49.890]  So, definite connection there.
[07:50.010 --> 07:50.530]  Definite connection.
[07:50.670 --> 07:52.470]  And I know a lot of hackers are into trains.
[07:52.610 --> 07:57.570]  So, that's certainly something that we find a lot of common ground with.
[07:57.850 --> 07:58.250]  So, yeah.
[07:58.410 --> 07:58.890]  It's cool.
[07:58.970 --> 07:59.770]  National Train Week.
[08:00.010 --> 08:00.890]  All week long, right?
[08:00.970 --> 08:02.450]  It's National Train Week right now, today?
[08:03.210 --> 08:04.490]  Apparently, this is the week.
[08:04.630 --> 08:10.070]  And it culminates in this region, in Philadelphia, this Saturday at 30th Street Station.
[08:10.210 --> 08:10.790]  So, check it out.
[08:10.830 --> 08:11.450]  I will be there.
[08:11.630 --> 08:13.910]  I'll be wearing my 2600 cap, if anybody is looking.
[08:14.350 --> 08:15.850]  If you see somebody with 2600 cap.
[08:16.550 --> 08:17.870]  2600 conductor's cap, I believe.
[08:18.690 --> 08:19.410]  Well, I...
[08:19.410 --> 08:20.690]  How much do you have to pledge for that?
[08:21.190 --> 08:22.610]  I can't find my Choo Choo Charlie hat.
[08:22.710 --> 08:23.390]  I used to have one.
[08:23.610 --> 08:28.590]  I think I sent it to a judge who I thought was guilty of railroading me, but in any case.
[08:29.210 --> 08:29.610]  Okay.
[08:29.730 --> 08:30.110]  Enough of that.
[08:30.470 --> 08:36.630]  A couple of bits of news, and we have some special features to get into tonight, as it is one of our special programs.
[08:38.370 --> 08:44.230]  The Justice Department admits that there are many flaws in the FBI terror watch list.
[08:44.310 --> 08:45.370]  This story just came out today.
[08:45.370 --> 08:58.950]  In fact, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has improperly kept nearly 24,000 people on a terrorist watch list, based on outdated or sometimes irrelevant information, while it missed others with legitimate terror ties who should have been on the list.
[08:59.090 --> 09:03.290]  And they're pretty miffed, because they worked hard to get on that list, and they're not there.
[09:03.290 --> 09:16.710]  The report said the mistakes posed a risk to national security because of the failure to flag actual suspected terrorists, as well as an unnecessary nuisance for non-suspects who may be questioned at traffic stops or stopped from boarding an airplane.
[09:16.710 --> 09:36.030]  By the beginning of 2009, the report said the government's terrorist watch list included about 400,000 people listed as 1.1 million names and aliases, which is an exponential growth from the days before the attacks of September 11th, when it included fewer than two dozen people.
[09:36.230 --> 09:38.150]  So, yes, that's gone up quite a bit.
[09:38.150 --> 09:49.830]  But intelligence officials say the watch list have allowed different agencies to work together in an effort to prevent the type of breakdown that allowed two of the hijackers to enter the United States, even though they were known to the CIA for their terrorist ties.
[09:50.270 --> 09:54.210]  But, boy, you know, is this really making it any better?
[09:54.450 --> 09:56.470]  My goodness, the clogging of the system.
[09:56.750 --> 09:59.730]  400,000 people, 1.1 million names and aliases.
[10:00.530 --> 10:01.370]  I don't know.
[10:01.550 --> 10:03.910]  And they're probably all sitting on a laptop somewhere.
[10:04.970 --> 10:05.330]  Probably.
[10:05.610 --> 10:06.670]  That's not one big laptop.
[10:07.110 --> 10:09.170]  Yeah, it's got to have a lot of storage there.
[10:09.950 --> 10:10.170]  Annual?
[10:10.310 --> 10:10.870]  Yes, go ahead, Barney.
[10:11.590 --> 10:20.190]  It may well be sitting on a laptop, but one of the major news networks, I think it was either ABC or CBS, actually obtained a copy of the watch list.
[10:20.190 --> 10:21.470]  Somehow it was leaked to them.
[10:22.370 --> 10:24.310]  And they haven't released it to the public.
[10:24.490 --> 10:25.830]  But I think they should, frankly.
[10:26.130 --> 10:36.530]  But does anybody listening really expect this list of 1.1 million names on the terrorist watch list to get any smaller?
[10:37.390 --> 10:39.910]  Obviously, it's part of the whole mission creep syndrome.
[10:40.450 --> 10:44.630]  It's going to get bigger and bigger until we're probably most of us are going to be on it.
[10:44.810 --> 10:46.610]  I mean, we may be on it for all I know.
[10:47.110 --> 10:50.030]  Well, what if you feel you should be on it and you're not?
[10:50.270 --> 10:53.050]  I mean, is there a way to just add yourself or request that you be on it?
[10:53.050 --> 10:56.630]  Or if you think somebody else should be on it, how do you do that exactly?
[10:56.890 --> 10:57.290]  It's pretty easy.
[10:57.410 --> 11:01.290]  You just call up the government and say, hi, I'm a terrorist, and then all kinds of things will happen.
[11:01.370 --> 11:05.850]  All right, get the phone number for the government, and there's a number of people that should be on that list.
[11:06.010 --> 11:10.110]  Meanwhile, the United Kingdom has published their list of the least wanted people.
[11:10.730 --> 11:18.270]  They include white supremacist, no, I'm not kidding, white supremacist, Islamic clerics, a controversial Kansas pastor, I think we all know him, and a U.S.
[11:18.390 --> 11:19.410]  talk show host.
[11:20.210 --> 11:23.630]  We won't reveal his name until I finish reading this paragraph.
[11:23.630 --> 11:28.430]  They're on a list of 22 people banned from Britain for stirring up hatred.
[11:29.190 --> 11:32.590]  Britain's home office said it decided to exclude the 22 in the last several months.
[11:32.770 --> 11:40.750]  That decision follows measures introduced by Home Secretary Jackie Smith last year against people who have engaged in spreading hate.
[11:41.510 --> 11:44.130]  Well, hate, it's a nasty thing, spreading hate.
[11:45.370 --> 11:47.910]  One of the most recognized names on the list may be U.S.
[11:48.030 --> 11:50.290]  radio talk show host Michael Savage.
[11:50.570 --> 11:52.270]  He was listed under his real name.
[11:52.350 --> 11:53.110]  Anybody know his real name?
[11:53.630 --> 11:54.950]  Michael Allen Wiener.
[11:55.710 --> 11:56.230]  What?
[11:57.310 --> 11:59.190]  That's not a particularly funny name.
[11:59.950 --> 12:00.270]  Allen.
[12:00.470 --> 12:01.390]  Well, Allen is a funny name.
[12:01.410 --> 12:01.650]  You're right.
[12:02.110 --> 12:03.270]  Michael Allen Wiener.
[12:03.550 --> 12:07.290]  The Conservatives' Daily Show can be heard nationwide in the United States.
[12:07.370 --> 12:09.330]  Now, he's fit to be tied about this.
[12:09.410 --> 12:13.470]  If you go to his website now, it's all kinds of nasty things being said about England.
[12:13.910 --> 12:21.290]  And obviously, Outspoken Kansas Reverend Fred Phelps, he's the easy one to guess, and his daughter, Shirley Phelps Roper.
[12:21.290 --> 12:24.850]  They're listed for engaging in unacceptable behavior and fostering hatred.
[12:25.590 --> 12:36.090]  Phelps and his followers at Westboro Baptist Church oppose homosexuality, and they picket the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq, saying their deaths are God's way of punishing the United States for supporting homosexuals.
[12:36.830 --> 12:38.090]  So, yeah, okay.
[12:39.670 --> 12:44.110]  So that's, yeah, if you're one of those 22 people, you can't go to England.
[12:44.310 --> 12:45.470]  You know, it's crazy, though, with the...
[12:45.470 --> 12:52.310]  I remember, you know, we've all heard about Phelps before, but there's also a group of, like, guys with motorcycles who go and they counter-protest at the funerals.
[12:52.470 --> 12:54.010]  They go and they, like, hold flags and stuff.
[12:54.110 --> 12:57.110]  Yeah, it's an incredibly offensive thing.
[12:57.270 --> 12:58.290]  It's completely two different...
[12:58.290 --> 13:01.490]  Well, to protest at a funeral, no matter what you think about...
[13:01.490 --> 13:02.090]  Well, yeah, the guys are crazy.
[13:02.250 --> 13:02.990]  They really are.
[13:02.990 --> 13:04.270]  I passed their church once.
[13:04.450 --> 13:08.310]  But they're also, they're all lawyers, so they follow, like, First Amendment stuff to a T.
[13:08.510 --> 13:08.690]  Yeah.
[13:08.910 --> 13:09.130]  Rob?
[13:09.290 --> 13:20.110]  But according to a blogger I follow, the fact that Michael Savage's name turned up on this list inspired a whole bunch of interest in Michael Savage, and the numbers for his show have gone way up as a result.
[13:20.610 --> 13:21.170]  Of course, yeah.
[13:21.170 --> 13:22.450]  So he's benefiting by this, but...
[13:22.450 --> 13:23.490]  This happens all the time.
[13:23.530 --> 13:28.390]  Yeah, this inspired said blogger to decide he hates Norway, to, you know, try and get people to his side, but...
[13:29.370 --> 13:29.730]  Okay.
[13:30.710 --> 13:31.210]  Let's see.
[13:31.210 --> 13:33.170]  Anything in the social networking world?
[13:33.590 --> 13:41.730]  Well, let's say a federal judge has given the green light to a lawsuit brought against video giant Blockbuster over its use of Facebook's privacy-destroying Beacon ad system.
[13:42.210 --> 13:42.570]  Yeah.
[13:42.790 --> 13:51.470]  A year ago, a Texas woman named Catherine Elaine Harris sued Blockbuster after it used Beacon to share her movie rentals with her so-called Facebook friends.
[13:51.730 --> 13:56.790]  The suit seeks class action status, and U.S.
[13:57.010 --> 14:06.510]  District Court Judge Barbara Lynn ruled that the case can go to court, even though Blockbuster's online terms and conditions insist that disputes can't be brought to court and that users must waive their right to class action suits.
[14:06.750 --> 14:09.790]  I love the little rules like that, disclaimers.
[14:11.090 --> 14:11.710]  According to...
[14:11.710 --> 14:12.530]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[14:13.150 --> 14:15.510]  It isn't that Catherine Harris, is it?
[14:16.710 --> 14:18.190]  No, I don't think so.
[14:18.630 --> 14:22.450]  The former head of the elections official in Florida...
[14:22.450 --> 14:23.570]  Unless she moved to Texas.
[14:23.570 --> 14:24.750]  No, I don't think that's her.
[14:24.910 --> 14:26.670]  And I think her name was spelled with a K, wasn't it?
[14:26.730 --> 14:28.010]  This one's spelled with a C, so no.
[14:28.870 --> 14:37.350]  There is nothing in the terms and conditions that prevents Blockbuster from unilaterally changing any part of the contract, other than providing that such changes will not take effect until posted on the website.
[14:37.810 --> 14:42.350]  The Blockbuster contract only states that modifications will be effective immediately upon posting, blah, blah, blah.
[14:42.710 --> 14:54.110]  But basically, I don't know if anybody here was around on Facebook when this was going on, but they actually would just basically post what movies you were renting and assume that you wanted people to know this?
[14:54.450 --> 14:55.730]  I mean, how insane is that?
[14:56.990 --> 14:57.310]  Insane.
[14:57.450 --> 14:58.030]  It's pretty insane.
[14:58.130 --> 14:58.950]  Okay, I guess we all agree.
[14:58.950 --> 15:00.910]  It's not very different than what's going on right now.
[15:01.070 --> 15:01.890]  What's going on right now?
[15:01.970 --> 15:03.850]  Well, I mean, everyone's posting what they're eating for lunch.
[15:03.870 --> 15:05.570]  Yes, but they're posting it at least.
[15:05.690 --> 15:08.590]  This is Blockbuster going in and saying, hey, look what this person just rented.
[15:08.590 --> 15:15.890]  And if you're renting all these slasher films, you know, and you're a kindergarten teacher, do you really want that to be spread around to all...
[15:15.890 --> 15:18.410]  What's with your students on Facebook if you're a kindergarten teacher?
[15:18.530 --> 15:19.750]  Well, I didn't say that.
[15:19.890 --> 15:20.790]  It could be their parents.
[15:20.850 --> 15:21.170]  Who knows?
[15:21.290 --> 15:24.550]  Well, plastering all sorts of things about your life on Facebook is very common.
[15:24.550 --> 15:28.850]  And since it's become a very popular site, obviously, people seem to like doing this.
[15:28.850 --> 15:31.530]  But this is a sales transaction, you know?
[15:31.690 --> 15:34.150]  It's not a public thing.
[15:34.290 --> 15:39.470]  The thing people didn't like about Beacon, and there was kind of a misstep on Facebook as far as the fact that it was an opt...
[15:39.470 --> 15:44.310]  So all the applications on Facebook as they exist now are opt-in, but that was an opt-out kind of thing.
[15:44.550 --> 15:53.630]  So you had already signed up for, you know, this, that, and the other site, and you happened to be on Facebook, and they connected the two without asking you if you wanted them to do that first.
[15:53.810 --> 15:57.130]  And that was where kind of the controversy about it came up.
[15:57.230 --> 16:00.090]  It wasn't that easy to opt-out from what I heard.
[16:00.090 --> 16:03.630]  Well, they yanked it pretty quickly, though, because people were upset about it.
[16:05.890 --> 16:06.710]  I think, rightfully so.
[16:07.610 --> 16:12.390]  And whenever they have something like that, just post it for everybody to see without your permission.
[16:12.530 --> 16:13.770]  I think that rubs people the wrong way.
[16:13.830 --> 16:14.110]  Yes, Gus?
[16:14.430 --> 16:18.910]  I'd like to hear what goes on in the rooms where they're developing, you know, options like that.
[16:19.010 --> 16:24.890]  Is that something, you know, do people not realize that they're going to run into the kindergarten teacher slash slasher flick scenario?
[16:24.890 --> 16:27.330]  I mean, like, how do they think this is a good idea?
[16:27.490 --> 16:29.110]  Like, an immaculately good idea?
[16:29.230 --> 16:31.150]  Because people want everything to be known about them.
[16:31.350 --> 16:32.530]  We all want to share.
[16:32.890 --> 16:33.370]  Yeah, that's true.
[16:34.350 --> 16:36.370]  I don't think it's even about the customers.
[16:36.550 --> 16:41.050]  It's about what will drive more traffic to Facebook site and more ad impressions.
[16:41.050 --> 16:45.070]  And they think that this is a feature that is going to let them sell more ads.
[16:45.090 --> 16:49.430]  I don't know that they even take it to the step of asking what the customers want.
[16:49.470 --> 16:57.550]  Yeah, and the other thing to remember is that for all the Katherine Harris's in the world, and there are at least two now, there are a lot of other people that embrace this kind of thing that say, that's a good idea.
[16:57.550 --> 16:58.690]  I like doing that, you know?
[16:59.130 --> 17:01.310]  Because there's nothing I'd want to keep secret, certainly.
[17:01.310 --> 17:04.230]  If you don't have anything to keep secret, you have nothing to worry about, right?
[17:04.490 --> 17:05.510]  Yeah, something like that.
[17:06.290 --> 17:14.330]  Meanwhile, speaking about Facebook, a Swiss insurance worker lost her job after surfing popular social network site Facebook while she was allegedly sick.
[17:14.330 --> 17:15.330]  That's according to her employer.
[17:15.710 --> 17:25.090]  The woman said she could not work in front of a computer as she needed to lie in the dark, but was then seen to be active on Facebook, which obviously you can't do that if you're lying in the dark, right?
[17:25.090 --> 17:34.290]  This abuse of trust rather than the activity on Facebook led to the ending of the work contract, according to insurer National Suisse.
[17:34.570 --> 17:50.730]  The unnamed woman told a newspaper she had been surfing Facebook in bed on her iPhone and accused her employer of spying on her and other employees by sending a mysterious friend request, which allows access to personal online activity.
[17:51.370 --> 17:51.970]  Wow.
[17:52.290 --> 17:54.150]  It's really getting dirty in there, isn't it?
[17:54.490 --> 17:57.790]  I sort of wonder how long this is going to go on, though, because I do feel like...
[17:57.790 --> 17:59.730]  I think I saw last week on Facebook...
[17:59.730 --> 18:09.750]  I'm sorry, on Slashdot that employers are considering not actually looking people up that much on Facebook and other social networking sites anymore because of the legal ramifications that they're actually doing that.
[18:10.470 --> 18:14.970]  So it may be the case that we'll actually end up seeing fewer of these sites or the formal will be mitigated.
[18:15.070 --> 18:21.990]  I think that was mostly in terms of looking at people who are seeking jobs at a company, but it's possible that it'll spread to other stuff as well.
[18:22.090 --> 18:22.470]  We'll have to see.
[18:22.850 --> 18:28.470]  A very simple way for people to get around such a problem like that is to only add your friends.
[18:29.570 --> 18:30.450]  Yeah, yeah, that's true.
[18:30.610 --> 18:33.650]  But then how does it work with their friends?
[18:33.990 --> 18:37.570]  They see that you're a friend of them and, you know, can sort of...
[18:37.570 --> 18:42.290]  If you're not careful, they can see things about you that you might not want them to see if you don't hide the right things.
[18:42.470 --> 18:46.530]  Well, there are various privacy options for Facebook in terms of who can see what you're doing and where.
[18:46.670 --> 18:50.030]  And I don't know off the top of my head what the default ones are.
[18:50.030 --> 18:54.870]  So I could very well see somebody signing up, not understanding what the default, you know, settings are.
[18:54.970 --> 18:55.030]  Right.
[18:55.090 --> 18:55.910]  It's easy to make a mistake.
[18:56.250 --> 18:57.970]  I'm not sure we've all made a mistake somewhere.
[18:58.330 --> 18:59.490]  Sent something we didn't want to send.
[18:59.650 --> 19:03.470]  Just because you may have only your friends on there doesn't necessarily mean that nobody can see what you're doing.
[19:03.470 --> 19:04.730]  You've never made a mistake not giving anything.
[19:04.730 --> 19:04.990]  Not one.
[19:05.190 --> 19:06.050]  Not one that you can prove.
[19:06.050 --> 19:17.850]  I almost sent a personal message to Twitter because I saw somebody posting something that was actually a reply went to my phone and I replied to them thinking I was replying to the person and I replied to Twitter.
[19:18.030 --> 19:19.630]  But fortunately, I didn't say anything too embarrassing.
[19:19.930 --> 19:27.650]  Yeah, I've just got to say this woman, if she was home, I get migraines and occasionally I have to stay home and lie in a dark room with the shades drawn.
[19:28.410 --> 19:34.510]  There are precious few distractions available to me when I'm weathering one of these but one of them is using the computer with the monitor brightness turned way down.
[19:34.690 --> 19:36.070]  Well, don't work for that insurance company.
[19:37.250 --> 19:38.950]  Yeah, they'll have a field day with you.
[19:39.290 --> 19:39.710]  Emmanuel?
[19:39.870 --> 19:40.290]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[19:40.750 --> 19:48.370]  I just wanted to point out like Rob mentioned also, just because employers will publicly state that they may not be using
[19:51.790 --> 20:01.150]  searching social networking sites like Facebook to evaluate potential hires, that doesn't mean they're not doing it and just not telling anybody.
[20:01.270 --> 20:01.450]  Right.
[20:01.550 --> 20:06.090]  I think just for litigation purposes, you know, for legal purposes, they're just saying that they're not doing it.
[20:06.290 --> 20:27.090]  I'm sure the HR directors all over are rapidously searching for people's applicants' information on Facebook and other MySpace and other social networking sites and just, you know, searching the web in general for information about people and simply not disclosing it because then that puts them at risk of litigation.
[20:27.090 --> 20:30.410]  So just because they say they're not doing it doesn't mean they're not doing it.
[20:30.450 --> 20:31.990]  So be careful what you put out there, people.
[20:32.590 --> 20:37.190]  And just to follow with it, universities are now using social networking sites to screen potential applicants.
[20:37.470 --> 20:37.770]  What?
[20:37.870 --> 20:38.910]  You mean when they apply for college?
[20:38.910 --> 20:39.690]  When they apply for college.
[20:39.810 --> 20:40.890]  They look at their Facebook page.
[20:41.890 --> 20:42.750]  When they are.
[20:42.910 --> 20:43.210]  They are.
[20:43.370 --> 20:43.690]  Good.
[20:44.070 --> 20:44.910]  What do you mean good?
[20:46.750 --> 20:47.150]  Unbelievable.
[20:47.390 --> 20:49.190]  Okay, here's another application of Facebook.
[20:49.970 --> 20:51.950]  Japanese authorities are searching...
[20:51.950 --> 20:52.870]  I don't know if you heard about this U.S.
[20:52.950 --> 20:56.650]  professor in Japan who went up to a volcano and now he's missing.
[20:58.330 --> 21:01.350]  You know, it doesn't necessarily have to play out the way you imagine.
[21:02.770 --> 21:04.510]  Maybe I could have phrased that a little better.
[21:05.150 --> 21:05.930]  But they...
[21:05.930 --> 21:06.910]  No, this is a serious story.
[21:07.050 --> 21:09.010]  They're looking for him but they...
[21:09.010 --> 21:11.050]  This is not something to laugh at, folks.
[21:12.130 --> 21:18.810]  His family has hired a private U.S.-based rescue group that is set to join the search in Japan.
[21:18.810 --> 21:27.050]  Now they say that his Facebook page was accessed for a minute or a brief period of time.
[21:27.630 --> 21:28.990]  And what I'm...
[21:28.990 --> 21:30.270]  It was the volcano gods.
[21:30.270 --> 21:31.370]  It was not the volcano gods.
[21:31.370 --> 21:32.570]  Yeah, Goddilla's a very good hacker.
[21:32.810 --> 21:33.350]  God's sake.
[21:33.890 --> 21:34.810]  This is important.
[21:34.990 --> 21:36.290]  Now, they...
[21:36.290 --> 21:45.390]  First of all, let me just say right now the authorities, the searchers say that they found footprints and they conclusively ruled that he didn't fall in.
[21:45.590 --> 21:47.150]  So you can forget about that.
[21:47.730 --> 22:00.710]  But what they did realize what they did find out was that according to one of his friends, his Facebook page was accessed for about a minute last Thursday.
[22:00.790 --> 22:04.150]  Now, my question to the panel here is what exactly does that mean?
[22:04.150 --> 22:08.050]  How do I tell somebody whose Facebook page was accessed for a minute?
[22:08.170 --> 22:08.950]  I don't know how to do that.
[22:09.010 --> 22:09.590]  It's like a phone.
[22:09.750 --> 22:11.790]  It's like a pocket call on your phone.
[22:11.890 --> 22:13.190]  It was a magma Facebook.
[22:13.930 --> 22:14.810]  I don't follow...
[22:14.810 --> 22:15.210]  You haven't heard of this technically?
[22:15.370 --> 22:16.050]  I have an explanation.
[22:16.750 --> 22:17.110]  I'm sorry.
[22:17.650 --> 22:18.350]  Okay, you know what?
[22:18.530 --> 22:21.170]  You're in the penalty box for a little while for that comment.
[22:21.210 --> 22:27.250]  If someone's lost in a volcano and they access their Facebook for a minute, you'd think they would put something on there like...
[22:27.250 --> 22:28.350]  Well, that's what I'm asking.
[22:28.610 --> 22:30.270]  If they access their Facebook...
[22:30.270 --> 22:30.490]  I'm under a rock.
[22:30.670 --> 22:32.090]  Yeah, well, I don't think he fell into the volcano.
[22:32.370 --> 22:34.550]  If somebody accessed their...
[22:34.550 --> 22:36.750]  What do you see when someone accesses their Facebook?
[22:37.270 --> 22:38.370]  They didn't post something.
[22:38.490 --> 22:39.250]  They accessed it.
[22:39.330 --> 22:40.770]  Does anybody actually know this?
[22:40.950 --> 22:50.590]  Well, there is that friends instant messenger feature where if you happen to be looking at your thing, you'll see their name pop up and I guess you could kind of guess how long they've been on before it pops off.
[22:50.630 --> 22:50.810]  Rob?
[22:51.410 --> 22:56.410]  I don't know if Facebook has it, but a lot of these sites will show the last time it's been accessed by the user.
[22:56.490 --> 22:58.890]  If Facebook doesn't have that, all they have is the IM.
[22:59.210 --> 22:59.750]  I'm sorry.
[22:59.830 --> 23:00.230]  Say it again?
[23:00.430 --> 23:02.090]  Facebook only has the IM feature.
[23:02.190 --> 23:03.830]  They don't have like last access time.
[23:04.130 --> 23:04.370]  Uh-huh.
[23:05.110 --> 23:14.410]  I mean, it's quite possible that what happened in this case was that he had left his account on on somebody else's computer and they had just gone, oh, whoops, this is somebody else's account and then turned it off again.
[23:14.410 --> 23:18.270]  So I wouldn't think that it's necessarily the guy, especially if there's no activity and only lasted for a minute.
[23:18.410 --> 23:24.450]  Well, it certainly seems like they would be able to tell where that happened from, that the IP of the machine or something like that.
[23:24.510 --> 23:26.290]  It seems like they would be able to have some information like that.
[23:26.310 --> 23:29.650]  You just said that the friend, a friend of the person notices activity.
[23:29.850 --> 23:29.890]  Right.
[23:29.890 --> 23:32.530]  So maybe they didn't actually do the research and figure that out yet.
[23:32.730 --> 23:36.990]  Yeah, but apparently this made it all the way into the investigation and news stories and things like that.
[23:37.110 --> 23:39.390]  So they're really magnifying the importance of it.
[23:39.450 --> 23:39.970]  So I'm just curious.
[23:40.190 --> 23:46.590]  I think what we conclude is that we don't know and neither do they, but they like to say Facebook as much as they can.
[23:46.790 --> 23:52.550]  Well, let's hope they find the guy and let's hope the guy is around to personally speak to everybody here.
[23:53.270 --> 24:06.810]  Okay, we're ready to move on to a special feature of tonight which focuses on a guy that Bernie and Rob and I met at Nauticon.
[24:07.010 --> 24:07.710]  You met him, right?
[24:07.910 --> 24:08.170]  Yeah, I did.
[24:08.210 --> 24:08.390]  Okay.
[24:09.030 --> 24:14.610]  His name is Ed Piskor and he joins us on the phone from, I believe, Pittsburgh?
[24:15.750 --> 24:16.250]  Yep.
[24:16.850 --> 24:17.590]  Hi, how you doing, Ed?
[24:18.090 --> 24:18.590]  Welcome to the show.
[24:18.670 --> 24:19.090]  I didn't know I was laughing.
[24:19.150 --> 24:19.790]  Yeah, I'm doing good.
[24:20.310 --> 24:31.530]  Ed is the author and artist who has put out a graphic novel, actually two graphic novels and is working on two more.
[24:32.390 --> 24:36.470]  And believe it or not, this will sound rather strange, but it's true.
[24:36.470 --> 24:44.530]  These graphic novels are inspired and based on what we do here on this particular radio program.
[24:44.730 --> 24:47.530]  And I'm not speaking mis-true by saying that, am I?
[24:47.990 --> 24:49.030]  No, not at all.
[24:49.930 --> 24:59.830]  I completely immerse myself in the entire archive of Off the Hook starting from the very beginning and just fell in love with the program.
[25:00.670 --> 25:02.390]  I found it very inspiring.
[25:02.630 --> 25:05.050]  I think the show is fantastic.
[25:05.470 --> 25:15.570]  And I think it's actually, to be honest about it, I think it's important, an important piece of American culture that deserves to be in the Smithsonian as far as I'm concerned.
[25:15.930 --> 25:17.390]  That's amazing.
[25:18.410 --> 25:25.830]  We heard you speak at Nauticon and I'm going to ask you to tell the story as to how this all got started.
[25:27.690 --> 25:29.830]  But it was just, it blew me away.
[25:29.950 --> 25:33.130]  And I think I speak for Ed as well, for Bernie as well, rather.
[25:33.810 --> 25:45.990]  And just hearing how the show affected somebody so intensely, you know, I always thought that there was the people in this room and some of our listeners that might have been affected a great deal.
[25:46.070 --> 25:52.490]  But you really brought it home to tell us just how much this program means and by extension how much this station means.
[25:52.670 --> 25:57.990]  Now, the graphic novel that you've put out, I have the first two volumes of it right here.
[25:58.210 --> 25:59.330]  It's called Whizzywig.
[25:59.930 --> 26:04.570]  Volume one is entitled Freak, P-H-R-E-A-K as in Phone Freaker.
[26:04.750 --> 26:06.470]  Volume two entitled Hacker.
[26:07.610 --> 26:12.010]  And it's an incredible story.
[26:12.430 --> 26:17.110]  And what's particularly funny is that you might recognize some of the faces in it.
[26:17.210 --> 26:20.030]  They're kind of based on some of us.
[26:20.470 --> 26:27.930]  And it's an incredible honor just to see that, to see people that are based on you or on people that you know.
[26:28.210 --> 26:32.230]  And to follow the story, which is really an amazing tale.
[26:32.570 --> 26:38.730]  And before you start your story, let me just say that we're offering this as our premium tonight.
[26:39.230 --> 26:41.370]  It's an incredible one-time offer.
[26:41.410 --> 26:42.410]  We're only offering it tonight.
[26:42.430 --> 26:44.350]  And we're only offering up until 8 p.m.
[26:44.850 --> 26:53.250]  For those of you who call 212-209-2950 and pledge $75, you will get both of these volumes.
[26:53.390 --> 26:55.170]  Both volumes of Whizzywig.
[26:55.290 --> 26:57.550]  The Freak and the Hacker volume.
[26:57.550 --> 27:05.530]  And you'll get immersed in this world of the crazy characters that Ed will describe in just a moment.
[27:05.850 --> 27:22.910]  Now, if you want to go a step beyond that and also get some of the inspiration that Ed Piskor felt himself, you can get an entire library of all of the off-the-hook shows in full broadcast quality for a pledge of $125.
[27:23.030 --> 27:29.990]  You'll get the books and you'll get what is it, 20 years of shows all on DVDs.
[27:30.170 --> 27:32.630]  And it's as good as they can possibly sound.
[27:32.630 --> 27:34.370]  Much better than what you hear on the website.
[27:34.550 --> 27:37.370]  This is high fidelity sound.
[27:37.850 --> 27:45.270]  212-209-2950 and of course everybody who pledges $25 and above gets an off-the-hook t-shirt.
[27:45.590 --> 27:52.870]  So I've just pretty much outlined everything that we're offering here tonight but we're only offering it tonight and that's the important thing.
[27:53.070 --> 27:54.670]  Did you outline the telephone number?
[27:54.890 --> 27:56.370]  I tried to but maybe I failed.
[27:56.470 --> 27:57.190]  Why don't you...
[27:57.770 --> 28:09.250]  The thing people have to understand is this country code 1 and then the area code is 212 and the exchange 209 and the last four digits of course 2950.
[28:09.550 --> 28:10.250]  That's called the extension.
[28:10.490 --> 28:11.010]  The extension.
[28:11.590 --> 28:15.810]  So the whole thing is 1-212-209-2950.
[28:16.490 --> 28:21.070]  Now we've all had a chance to look at this graphic novel.
[28:21.070 --> 28:22.610]  There's a series of graphic novels.
[28:23.130 --> 28:27.690]  Anybody want to give their first impression if you haven't already seen it?
[28:27.870 --> 28:30.490]  I think the first impression is that it's very well put together.
[28:30.670 --> 28:31.350]  It's very well drawn.
[28:32.090 --> 28:33.750]  It's something that you'd be proud to own.
[28:33.830 --> 28:34.670]  Yeah, it really is.
[28:34.810 --> 28:38.470]  This is not something sloppy or amateur in any sense.
[28:38.590 --> 28:49.670]  This is the real deal and Ed will tell us something about the story that's going on but first we'd like to see a couple of calls come in so Ed can tell the whole story as to how exactly he got started.
[28:50.270 --> 28:53.690]  It's a testament to just what radio can do to people.
[28:53.850 --> 28:57.390]  How it can inspire them to do all kinds of amazing surprising things.
[28:58.030 --> 29:03.570]  Now Bernie, I know that you saw this I think for the first time within the last year.
[29:03.870 --> 29:05.010]  What were your impressions?
[29:05.510 --> 29:37.570]  My impressions, actually my first impression was I was visiting our friend Jim and he pointed out to me an article in a Wired magazine that was describing Ed Piscor's work with these graphic novels about the freak and freak culture and the hacker culture and Jim motioned to me to look at this one page which had a few frames of the comic or the graphic novel And one of the characters was
[29:37.570 --> 29:39.570]  referencing this guy, Bernie, in Philadelphia.
[29:39.890 --> 29:42.130]  And I thought, oh man, this is really crazy.
[29:43.230 --> 29:45.210]  So I thought that was strange enough.
[29:45.290 --> 29:57.510]  And then I'm at Nauticon, and I'm in an elevator going up, and I see a guy wearing a Nauticon badge around his neck that says Piscor.
[29:57.570 --> 30:00.870]  And I said, Ed, are you the guy who does the strip?
[30:00.890 --> 30:02.030]  I've got a bone to pick with you.
[30:02.030 --> 30:06.930]  Because I was a little curious about why I was put in his book.
[30:07.090 --> 30:09.370]  And he sort of shyly said yes.
[30:09.610 --> 30:11.830]  And so we ended up discussing it.
[30:11.890 --> 30:14.510]  We became friends.
[30:14.770 --> 30:22.310]  And he's an amazing guy, and he's put together some really amazing books, which I wholeheartedly recommend to anybody.
[30:22.310 --> 30:24.070]  He's also got a pretty interesting blog.
[30:24.450 --> 30:29.450]  So I encourage our listeners who want to support this station, which is really a worthwhile cause.
[30:30.110 --> 30:41.590]  And by the way, WBAI is in pretty dire financial straits, so it really would be helpful if you all call Country Code 1, Area Code 212, 209-2950.
[30:41.590 --> 30:43.770]  And we have four calls on the line already.
[30:43.790 --> 30:47.570]  So there are people out there that understand this right from the outset.
[30:47.950 --> 30:51.830]  And hopefully we'll get a lot more people to understand this as well before the hour is up.
[30:51.890 --> 30:54.350]  Because as Bernie said, we are in dire financial straits.
[30:54.470 --> 30:57.550]  It doesn't mean we're all harbingers of doom or anything like that.
[30:57.550 --> 31:00.470]  We're all feeling pretty optimistic and positive about the future.
[31:00.750 --> 31:04.690]  It's always a bit tumultuous here at the station for all sorts of different reasons.
[31:04.690 --> 31:08.470]  But the one thing that seems to remain constant is that we continue to exist.
[31:08.650 --> 31:13.730]  And the only reason we continue to exist is because our listeners are out there, and they believe this place is worth preserving.
[31:13.850 --> 31:14.710]  Five calls on the line.
[31:14.710 --> 31:16.590]  212-209-2950.
[31:16.830 --> 31:18.950]  Let me just read you a little bit of this graphic novel.
[31:19.050 --> 31:20.350]  This is from the beginning of it.
[31:20.570 --> 31:25.050]  It's basically talking about this radio show called Off the Rocker.
[31:26.470 --> 31:30.730]  And with your host, Winston Smith, it starts with a radio tower.
[31:31.210 --> 31:35.130]  And you see the words, it's 730 on Wednesday, time for Off the Rocker.
[31:35.210 --> 31:36.350]  I'm your host, Winston Smith.
[31:36.470 --> 31:37.730]  And we have a lot to deal with tonight.
[31:37.930 --> 31:39.510]  Almost none of it is good.
[31:41.030 --> 31:42.990]  And basically, it goes into the story.
[31:43.150 --> 31:48.050]  For a year, it's been talking about many issues within the computer hacking and phone-freaking community.
[31:48.290 --> 31:59.730]  One of this shows regular players in this cat-and-mouse game of acquiring taboo information is my great friend, Kevin Fenicle.
[32:00.030 --> 32:01.490]  Is that how you're supposed to say that name?
[32:01.730 --> 32:02.490]  It's basically...
[32:02.490 --> 32:06.470]  Yeah, it's based on, I guess, Kevin Mitnick.
[32:06.470 --> 32:13.390]  You see, the story is interesting because all kinds of fiction is mixed in with facts.
[32:13.570 --> 32:18.410]  So, I believe, Ed, you have me growing up with Kevin Mitnick somewhere, right?
[32:18.810 --> 32:20.630]  Or the equivalent of Kevin Mitnick.
[32:21.050 --> 32:21.710]  Yeah, yeah.
[32:21.770 --> 32:28.130]  It's just an excuse to have both of you guys in the comic at the same time.
[32:28.130 --> 32:35.290]  And I'm not very clever, so I just created these silly little analog characters to sort of take your place.
[32:35.290 --> 32:50.070]  And in the same way that that Takedown movie used Mitnick's real name and they had all these falsehoods and stuff, I don't know the guy personally, so this is a completely... well, am I completely fictional?
[32:50.270 --> 32:52.730]  Well, I mean, that way you can tell the story.
[32:52.870 --> 32:56.170]  And this is actually something that the Takedown people should have taken heed of.
[32:56.170 --> 33:05.810]  Yeah, you know, you can tell a crazy, fantastic story that has no basis in actual reality, but it's sort of based a little bit on something that might have happened if you use different names.
[33:05.810 --> 33:06.290]  That's true.
[33:07.070 --> 33:19.790]  So, you basically have the freedom to go anywhere you want with this loosely based on facts story, which I think is incredible, fascinating, funny, and educational at the same time.
[33:19.790 --> 33:24.090]  And we have a bunch of calls, so again, let me just run down what we're offering tonight.
[33:24.470 --> 33:39.610]  We're offering these two graphic novels with all kinds of people that you might recognize from the radio show drawn up really nicely and with a really cool book and storyline and all that.
[33:39.750 --> 33:43.230]  It's called Whizzywig, two volumes of that for a pledge of $75.
[33:43.670 --> 33:46.790]  And I think it's going to be autographed, too.
[33:47.010 --> 33:49.390]  And I think we got you to autograph some of these.
[33:49.690 --> 33:49.890]  Yeah.
[33:50.050 --> 33:51.890]  So, okay, that adds to it as well.
[33:52.010 --> 33:55.250]  212-209-2950 for a pledge of $75.
[33:55.610 --> 34:01.130]  You get that, and you get the Off the Hook t-shirt, because everybody who pledges 25 and above gets the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[34:01.350 --> 34:11.530]  Now, if you want the entire archive of Off the Hook in high-fidelity sound on a whole bunch of DVDs, we'll send those to you as well for a pledge of $125.
[34:11.530 --> 34:17.050]  So, you'll get the shirt, you'll get the two graphic novels, and you'll get the full set of Off the Hook shows.
[34:17.210 --> 34:22.030]  It's an incredible bit of history, and it's all yours, but you've got to give a call, 212-209-2950.
[34:22.230 --> 34:26.630]  Again, this is our first week of the pledge drive, but every week we're going to be doing something different.
[34:26.630 --> 34:27.970]  We're not going to be doing this next week.
[34:27.970 --> 34:32.590]  So, if you want this, you've got to call in the next 27 minutes or so.
[34:32.710 --> 34:34.370]  212-209-2950.
[34:34.610 --> 34:40.130]  I mean, you're forgetting the most important premium, of course, which is that the radio station and this show keep going.
[34:40.130 --> 34:41.510]  How do we get to buy a new mic?
[34:42.210 --> 34:44.850]  Well, maybe just reconnect that one and figure out how to do it.
[34:45.630 --> 34:47.290]  Yeah, 212-209-2950.
[34:47.290 --> 34:49.350]  We have four calls on the line right now.
[34:49.650 --> 35:00.110]  I think if we get an even half dozen, we can have Ed tell the story as to how he got started in this whole crazy thing and what sucked him into the hacker world.
[35:00.110 --> 35:04.770]  And it's an incredible story, what we heard over at Natacon, and very educational.
[35:04.930 --> 35:05.050]  Rob?
[35:05.210 --> 35:07.150]  Yeah, I just want to say a little bit about this book.
[35:07.150 --> 35:09.070]  The artwork is beautiful.
[35:09.310 --> 35:15.790]  I mean, Ed Piskar is an actual comics artist who's worked in some mainstream books, although this is a self-published effort.
[35:16.210 --> 35:19.910]  And the artwork is wonderful, and the writing is very witty, I think.
[35:19.970 --> 35:26.950]  It's a great fictionalization of some things that have happened in our history and some people that we've known and heard of and followed the stories of.
[35:26.950 --> 35:30.690]  And he really does a great job of telling the story he wants to tell.
[35:30.990 --> 35:38.150]  This book has officially joined the pile of things that I now give to people who want to know, what is this whole hacker thing you're into?
[35:38.550 --> 35:39.790]  Yeah, that's what you can do.
[35:39.790 --> 35:41.990]  You can hand it to somebody and say, this is why.
[35:41.990 --> 35:51.750]  This is why we spend so much time at night pouring over our computers or talking to these strange people at our meetings or conventions or things like that.
[35:51.750 --> 35:56.750]  But this explains it, and it's great when somebody gets it and you can hand it to them that way.
[35:56.910 --> 36:03.390]  Yeah, and although the names and the details and things have been changed and fictionalized, it's totally got the spirit of what happened and what's going on.
[36:03.670 --> 36:03.910]  Exactly.
[36:04.030 --> 36:04.750]  Two more phone calls.
[36:04.850 --> 36:07.410]  Let's just get two more phone calls, and Ed will tell us the whole story.
[36:08.230 --> 36:09.910]  212-209-2950.
[36:10.510 --> 36:13.510]  I'm sure somebody in this room is able to get those phones to ring.
[36:14.610 --> 36:19.930]  You know, I think the thing that people need to realize is that this is an amazing deal.
[36:19.930 --> 36:23.930]  You get all this stuff, but we need your support.
[36:24.210 --> 36:29.910]  I mean, we're giving you these books because we want to thank you for keeping us going, but we need your support.
[36:29.910 --> 36:30.330]  We do.
[36:30.450 --> 36:42.650]  This station, as we said before, is in the middle of a financial crisis, which is why we have to keep on coming on the air and annoying you, asking you again to please call 212-209-2950.
[36:42.750 --> 36:44.810]  But see, it's not just because we're in a financial crisis.
[36:44.890 --> 36:48.390]  Yes, we are in a financial crisis, but this is how the station works.
[36:48.390 --> 36:50.910]  We need listener support to keep going.
[36:51.070 --> 36:57.450]  Even if everything was peachy keen and we were doing great, we would still need to come on the air and ask for listener support because we don't have commercials.
[36:57.690 --> 36:59.330]  I mean, that's the alternative, right?
[36:59.410 --> 37:04.050]  If we didn't do this, if we were in a financial pickle and we were a commercial station, we'd just raise the rates.
[37:04.250 --> 37:09.750]  We'd get some even more obnoxious advertisements, and, you know, those listeners would have to suffer.
[37:10.070 --> 37:14.670]  I heard that, and not to pick on Air America because they have some good programming.
[37:15.870 --> 37:21.330]  But they're a commercial network that's sort of geared towards liberals or what we define as liberals.
[37:22.150 --> 37:27.350]  And supposedly, they're in such bad shape that even though they're a commercial network, they're going to start asking their listeners for money.
[37:27.570 --> 37:28.270]  Can you believe that?
[37:28.330 --> 37:32.390]  A commercial network, they give you commercials and they try and get people to pledge.
[37:32.510 --> 37:33.750]  We don't give you commercials.
[37:33.750 --> 37:35.370]  We never will give you commercials.
[37:35.970 --> 37:43.710]  Nobody would advertise here, even if we did, Because we wind up saying things that would just piss off everybody at some point.
[37:43.970 --> 37:46.150]  Any corporation, we're going to say the truth.
[37:46.310 --> 37:49.410]  We're going to criticize where we see something to criticize.
[37:49.930 --> 37:52.510]  And that's why we can't have advertisers.
[37:52.630 --> 37:56.490]  That's why the only people that we can have as investors are our listeners.
[37:57.310 --> 37:59.290]  212-209-2950.
[37:59.550 --> 38:01.730]  We're still waiting for those two more phone calls to come in.
[38:01.870 --> 38:03.590]  And then we'll get right to Ed Piskor.
[38:03.690 --> 38:07.150]  And he'll tell the story as to how this whole graphic novel thing came into being.
[38:07.150 --> 38:09.970]  Now, Gus, you've been reading this nonstop ever since I handed it to you.
[38:10.130 --> 38:13.310]  You want to share something with us, maybe, as to what you're learning there?
[38:13.550 --> 38:15.950]  I just think it's really neat.
[38:16.350 --> 38:18.510]  At one point, there's just this random conversation.
[38:18.510 --> 38:20.110]  And the Kevin character's on the phone.
[38:20.110 --> 38:21.450]  And he says, yeah, Cheshire, such and such.
[38:21.570 --> 38:22.610]  And I'm like, that's Cheshire Catalyst.
[38:22.630 --> 38:23.290]  Cheshire Catalyst.
[38:23.730 --> 38:24.090]  Wow.
[38:24.890 --> 38:26.090]  And the artwork is...
[38:26.090 --> 38:28.130]  I don't know who Ed considers his influences.
[38:28.130 --> 38:31.630]  It looks a little bit kind of like Chris Ware to me.
[38:32.370 --> 38:33.670]  Is that an insult, Ed?
[38:33.990 --> 38:34.790]  No, not at all.
[38:34.870 --> 38:35.610]  Chris Ware's awesome.
[38:35.910 --> 38:36.570]  Okay, good.
[38:36.650 --> 38:36.770]  Yeah.
[38:37.150 --> 38:38.370]  And it's got some...
[38:38.370 --> 38:39.130]  Who's the other guy?
[38:39.210 --> 38:41.810]  I'm definitely seeing a little bit of crumb influence in the hairy people.
[38:42.490 --> 38:45.490]  Yeah, he's my sort of number one big-time influence.
[38:45.670 --> 38:45.890]  Excellent.
[38:46.510 --> 38:46.870]  Wow.
[38:47.030 --> 38:48.250]  Okay, so if you're fans of that...
[38:48.250 --> 38:50.330]  Okay, we need one more phone call.
[38:50.470 --> 38:51.810]  And then we'll go on to the story.
[38:51.890 --> 38:54.030]  212-209-2950.
[38:54.250 --> 38:55.630]  Again, pledge is $75.
[38:55.690 --> 38:57.970]  You get the two graphic novels autographed.
[38:58.470 --> 39:05.770]  For a pledge of $125, you'll get the two graphic novels and an entire archive of Off the Hook from 1988 to 2008.
[39:05.970 --> 39:06.990]  20 years.
[39:07.350 --> 39:16.030]  And Ed's about to tell us what kind of an effect that can have on you, to have that kind of information, that kind of audio at your fingertips.
[39:16.510 --> 39:19.890]  Again, everybody who pledges 25 and above gets an Off the Hook t-shirt.
[39:19.970 --> 39:21.290]  You can only get that by pledging.
[39:21.290 --> 39:22.510]  You can't get that anywhere else.
[39:22.790 --> 39:24.510]  212-209-2950.
[39:24.610 --> 39:29.250]  Be that one caller to get us back into our regular program.
[39:29.450 --> 39:30.510]  You could always pledge more.
[39:30.650 --> 39:33.710]  If you can afford it, you could always pledge less if you can't afford it.
[39:33.850 --> 39:34.170]  Absolutely.
[39:34.790 --> 39:37.530]  So anything you can give helps the station.
[39:37.550 --> 39:41.170]  And if you give $25 or more, we'll help you back with a shirt.
[39:41.390 --> 39:45.530]  $75 or more, we'll send you both books as well as the shirt.
[39:45.530 --> 39:52.490]  And $125, you can get the books, the shirt, as well as every Off the Hook ever you can listen to.
[39:52.570 --> 39:56.510]  Now, remember, we are donating this material ourselves.
[39:57.070 --> 39:59.910]  So everybody is pitching in here to keep this place going.
[39:59.910 --> 40:03.390]  So please join that effort and become part of the family.
[40:03.510 --> 40:04.970]  212-209-2950.
[40:05.210 --> 40:07.750]  Okay, we got everything that we need so far.
[40:07.770 --> 40:16.410]  But please keep those calls coming in as Ed tells us the story as to how he got started with the WYSIWYG series.
[40:16.470 --> 40:17.290]  Go ahead, Ed.
[40:18.110 --> 40:19.190]  Okay, so here's the deal.
[40:19.310 --> 40:25.610]  I was commissioned to draw a graphic novel that contained like 150 pages.
[40:25.910 --> 40:31.490]  And whenever you draw a page of comics, it's easily two times the size of the printed page.
[40:31.650 --> 40:39.650]  So the work is like 15 inches big, and that covers a lot of pencil mileage, as they call it.
[40:39.650 --> 40:40.750]  It takes a while to draw those.
[40:40.750 --> 40:42.070]  Sometimes like two to three days.
[40:42.230 --> 40:47.930]  And I ran out of every sort of DVD audio commentary that I had bored me.
[40:48.030 --> 40:49.730]  A lot of the music I had bored me.
[40:49.810 --> 40:54.130]  So I really needed a reason to stay in my chair while I was producing this work.
[40:54.630 --> 41:05.730]  And I stumbled across Off the Hook and listened to one of the newer episodes because it was sort of on a site that was talking about hacking or something like that.
[41:05.730 --> 41:12.550]  And I was expecting to maybe find some really cool subversive information or some sort of nifty evil thing.
[41:12.550 --> 41:18.850]  And what I experienced was a deeply intelligent sort of political conversation.
[41:20.630 --> 41:27.210]  And I was a little bit lost with what you guys were talking about at that particular moment.
[41:27.210 --> 41:31.470]  But I decided to listen to the show from the jump.
[41:31.610 --> 41:33.570]  I went to the 2600.com website.
[41:34.410 --> 41:38.870]  And I absolutely just fell in love with the program from the start.
[41:40.110 --> 41:49.790]  And as you continue to listen to the show and get to know sort of your friends and other people involved, Bernie S.
[41:49.890 --> 42:00.370]  Fiber Optic, and to have these people on the show, we get to learn about them, you know, as much as they let us, and you get to know the human side of these people.
[42:00.630 --> 42:08.030]  And, you know, a couple of years later, people are starting to get put in prison and have all sorts of trouble.
[42:08.210 --> 42:15.890]  And just the human dramas involved in the show were intensely interesting, scary.
[42:16.810 --> 42:28.090]  You know, you can't help but fear the government in a big way when these sort of draconian punishments come down upon the heads of these really brilliant, smart kids who are just curious.
[42:30.110 --> 42:31.330]  And I don't know.
[42:31.450 --> 42:33.270]  The show just really spoke to me in this way.
[42:33.670 --> 42:38.310]  Now, Ed, you went back to the very beginning and just started listening to every single show in sequence?
[42:38.570 --> 42:38.890]  Right.
[42:39.030 --> 42:49.070]  Like, the earliest little bits that I remember from, like, the earliest show, I think you were protesting some sort of nuclear power plant that was on Long Island or something.
[42:49.070 --> 42:50.710]  Oh, yeah, that wasn't an off-the-hook show.
[42:50.790 --> 42:54.270]  That was another BAI show that I did way back in, like, the late 80s, I think.
[42:54.350 --> 42:55.710]  So, yeah, you went way back to the beginning.
[42:55.910 --> 42:56.510]  Right, yeah.
[42:56.730 --> 43:00.170]  And that's part of the package that we're offering tonight for people that pledge 125.
[43:00.170 --> 43:01.150]  You'll get that as well.
[43:01.170 --> 43:04.030]  Go all the way back to the beginning and see how it all formed.
[43:04.130 --> 43:08.790]  Okay, so you basically got involved and just started following what was happening week by week.
[43:08.970 --> 43:14.670]  And I think you described it as this really intense drama that just started happening.
[43:15.390 --> 43:16.150]  It did.
[43:16.150 --> 43:20.890]  And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a planned thing or anything like that.
[43:21.030 --> 43:23.270]  We get to know Bernie S.
[43:23.450 --> 43:25.330]  for years' worth of shows.
[43:26.190 --> 43:29.890]  And then we hear one day that he had some legal hassle.
[43:30.210 --> 43:31.870]  And then we hear that he's in jail.
[43:31.870 --> 43:33.490]  And then he's calling from jail.
[43:34.070 --> 43:40.610]  And then, you know, you get on, you know, one evening and you talk about how he just got beat up in prison.
[43:40.610 --> 43:44.990]  And that just aggravated me to a ridiculous degree.
[43:45.370 --> 43:54.550]  The stuff that Fiber Optic went through, I literally shed a tear on the show where he was going to prison like the next day.
[43:54.670 --> 43:55.930]  You guys were going to drive him down there.
[43:55.930 --> 44:03.950]  And when you played Rude Boys out of jail, the day that he got out of jail, I mean, it's really touching stuff.
[44:04.390 --> 44:14.190]  But amongst those sorts of dramas, there was also a lot of really, really great sort of historical factoids.
[44:14.770 --> 44:20.170]  And I really feel like I'm minimizing the show because it had such a big impact on me.
[44:20.310 --> 44:22.730]  But I'm just sort of picking out just some...
[44:22.730 --> 44:24.490]  No, actually, you're doing anything but minimizing it.
[44:24.870 --> 44:28.890]  You're telling us how much of an effect it had on you and all the things that we've done over the years.
[44:29.010 --> 44:30.430]  And sometimes we forget that.
[44:30.570 --> 44:33.230]  We just come in here week after week and do the best we can.
[44:33.250 --> 44:38.110]  But we forget all the things that we've been through over the years and how that has affected other people.
[44:38.450 --> 44:40.830]  And I think, you know, you're an excellent example of that.
[44:40.830 --> 44:47.930]  Somebody who just basically found the show on the Internet and then got involved in the world, not even as it was happening.
[44:48.050 --> 44:53.370]  You went back and listened to it week by week and you felt the same sense of drama then.
[44:53.370 --> 44:54.310]  You got to know the people.
[44:54.490 --> 44:59.710]  You felt the pain they were going through and also realized the importance of what it was that was happening.
[45:00.010 --> 45:06.170]  The historical significance of seeing the Internet develop, of seeing civil rights as applied to the digital world.
[45:06.970 --> 45:10.670]  And, you know, it makes us realize that, you know, what we're doing here actually matters.
[45:10.670 --> 45:12.210]  It does count to somebody.
[45:12.950 --> 45:19.010]  And it's a significant statement, I think, that anybody has ever made about the radio show.
[45:19.170 --> 45:25.150]  And by producing this incredible work of art, it's really, you know, I feel like we're not worthy.
[45:25.290 --> 45:29.250]  But it's just, it's an amazing thing.
[45:29.410 --> 45:30.550]  You've certainly given back.
[45:30.830 --> 45:34.050]  And I know there are a number of people in the community who give back in all sorts of different ways.
[45:34.210 --> 45:36.210]  So I'm so happy that you did that.
[45:37.130 --> 45:38.590]  I definitely appreciate it.
[45:38.810 --> 45:39.310]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[45:39.730 --> 45:43.890]  I just wanted to say, we get a lot of emails at Off the Hook.
[45:44.130 --> 45:53.070]  And people from time to time do tell us that the stories that we relate about people and the hacker and the free community have really inspired them.
[45:53.070 --> 46:12.290]  And it's just so satisfying and fulfilling and enriching to meet somebody like Ed Piscor, whose inspiration has manifested itself in these amazing graphic novels, which he's put out and are continuing to work on.
[46:12.290 --> 46:15.430]  And it's just, it's just, it's such an amazing culture.
[46:15.610 --> 46:17.870]  I wanted to point our listeners out to his blog, too.
[46:18.450 --> 46:27.450]  If you want to read, sample some of his stuff, you can go to Ed Piscor, that's E-D-P-I-S-K-O-R dot the blogspot dot com.
[46:27.550 --> 46:31.090]  You can see some frames from some of his novels, actually more than a few frames.
[46:31.090 --> 46:35.570]  You put a lot of it up there, but there's nothing like having the actual physical graphic novels in your hand.
[46:36.090 --> 46:46.210]  And, again, we're, it was generous enough to help us out here and help WBAI with making these novels available, autographed.
[46:46.210 --> 47:02.690]  And anybody calling to support the station at 212-209-2950 can get your hands on these amazing graphic novels, sort of detailing the saga that this show has also documented over the past couple of decades.
[47:02.690 --> 47:03.990]  It's really amazing stuff.
[47:04.150 --> 47:07.250]  So, please, give us a call, 212-209-2950.
[47:07.310 --> 47:13.470]  You can get both graphic novels and a T-shirt for pledging $75 support.
[47:13.470 --> 47:23.470]  If you want to go for the full package with every off-the-hook episode in history, which is the exact material that has inspired Ed to do these graphic novels, you can pledge $125.
[47:23.550 --> 47:30.510]  Again, please, call 212-209-2950.
[47:31.010 --> 47:33.010]  WBAI is a really worthy cause, I think.
[47:33.210 --> 47:39.910]  There's no other non-commercial station or any station in the country that would probably air a show like this.
[47:40.130 --> 47:42.970]  And just imagine if this show had not aired.
[47:42.970 --> 47:44.810]  Imagine if WBAI had not been around.
[47:45.190 --> 47:55.750]  We would have lost those 20 years of incredible material that inspired someone like Ed and countless other people to do the various things that they've done in their lives.
[47:55.890 --> 47:57.270]  We wouldn't have WYSIWYG.
[47:57.350 --> 48:05.410]  We wouldn't have all these stories being told, fiction stories and non-fiction stories, books being written, movies being made.
[48:05.870 --> 48:07.930]  All kinds of things have come out of this show.
[48:08.090 --> 48:10.250]  And that's just one show on the station.
[48:10.470 --> 48:14.090]  So imagine the importance of this place, the significance of this place.
[48:14.210 --> 48:17.610]  Right here in the middle of New York City, we survived despite the odds.
[48:17.730 --> 48:19.370]  And it's all because of you.
[48:19.370 --> 48:21.430]  212-209-2950.
[48:21.990 --> 48:29.270]  Now, Ed, I just wanted to ask you some more about what you were doing while you were designing WYSIWYG.
[48:29.330 --> 48:30.790]  You were working on...
[48:31.410 --> 48:36.550]  Or actually, you were listening to the radio program while you were working on a different project.
[48:36.570 --> 48:37.150]  Was that what it was?
[48:37.150 --> 48:38.010]  Right.
[48:38.290 --> 48:38.610]  Yeah.
[48:38.730 --> 48:43.530]  So I would listen from the time I would wake up to the time I would go to sleep.
[48:43.530 --> 48:46.170]  It was just such a captivating program.
[48:46.170 --> 48:57.150]  It is such a captivating program that it really kept me entertained enough to sit in a chair in my studio for, you know, sometimes 15, 16 hours a day.
[48:57.630 --> 49:01.010]  And, you know, I could polish off maybe 20 shows in a day.
[49:01.250 --> 49:02.050]  Now, that's...
[49:02.050 --> 49:02.290]  Okay.
[49:02.890 --> 49:05.470]  You know, I admire your fortitude.
[49:05.470 --> 49:07.230]  But that just seems to me a bit much.
[49:07.390 --> 49:08.950]  20 hours a day of us?
[49:09.390 --> 49:16.790]  Well, sometimes there were these cliffhangers that I had to figure out what was going to happen with that Michelangelo virus that was coming out, you know.
[49:17.690 --> 49:18.070]  Yeah.
[49:18.490 --> 49:20.810]  That was, what, 1993 or something?
[49:21.330 --> 49:22.670]  Maybe even a bit earlier.
[49:23.310 --> 49:23.610]  Wow.
[49:23.830 --> 49:29.910]  Tell us about some more cliffhangers and dramatic episodes that we had because, you know, you sort of forget about them after a while.
[49:30.190 --> 49:32.010]  There were some very, very important things.
[49:32.010 --> 49:38.090]  And, you know what, when we were at Nauticon, it was great meeting other people who listened to the entire archive.
[49:38.090 --> 49:46.470]  And we were talking about the show in the same way that, you know, meathead jocks talk about old football games in the bar or something like that.
[49:47.070 --> 49:48.770]  Hopefully not in exactly the same way.
[49:48.770 --> 49:49.890]  No, no, no.
[49:49.970 --> 49:51.530]  But with the same sort of intensity.
[49:51.910 --> 49:52.270]  Uh-huh.
[49:53.250 --> 49:58.350]  The Joy Bubbles, may God rest his soul, interview was way up there.
[49:58.490 --> 49:59.150]  Right, right.
[49:59.530 --> 50:01.610]  We've talked to so many people over the years.
[50:01.770 --> 50:02.170]  It's incredible.
[50:02.190 --> 50:05.130]  The interviews that are on there alone are fantastic.
[50:05.290 --> 50:11.190]  But the stories and the callers, of course, we have so many people calling in over the years.
[50:11.190 --> 50:19.710]  In fact, those people who pledge and receive the archive on DVD, if you've ever called the show, you're on there somewhere.
[50:19.830 --> 50:20.610]  You're going to hear yourself.
[50:20.690 --> 50:21.390]  You're going to find yourself.
[50:21.470 --> 50:22.770]  You might find somebody else you know.
[50:22.970 --> 50:28.150]  You'll hear the way the phone system used to sound 20 years ago and how it sounds now.
[50:28.150 --> 50:31.030]  You'll hear how operators acted differently back then.
[50:31.390 --> 50:33.110]  Just all kinds of history.
[50:33.110 --> 50:34.270]  And it's all yours.
[50:34.550 --> 50:36.770]  212-209-2950.
[50:36.990 --> 50:38.450]  One-time offer here.
[50:38.590 --> 50:40.350]  And we only have about 10 minutes left.
[50:41.190 --> 50:43.410]  If you're listening, you'll hear your kindergarten teacher call us.
[50:44.430 --> 50:45.230]  Yeah, maybe.
[50:45.370 --> 50:46.070]  It's possible.
[50:46.510 --> 50:47.150]  Who knows?
[50:47.390 --> 50:48.990]  But here's the thing about Ed's book.
[50:49.690 --> 50:52.830]  It's that it really, I think, can appeal to pretty much any audience.
[50:53.150 --> 51:00.050]  Rob was saying that he gives it to people who really are just coming into this, want to find out what the hacker culture is all about.
[51:00.210 --> 51:08.610]  And then we have Gus here, who pretty much knows what the hacker culture is all about, but hasn't put the book down since she picked it up during the show.
[51:09.310 --> 51:17.210]  So I think that if you call 212-209-2950 and get Ed's books, you'll find a use for them.
[51:17.310 --> 51:20.170]  Yeah, Gus has been riveted to this book ever since she picked it up.
[51:20.270 --> 51:22.750]  And yes, you do know quite a bit about the hacker world.
[51:22.750 --> 51:23.110]  What can I say?
[51:23.170 --> 51:23.890]  I like a good comic.
[51:24.370 --> 51:25.050]  Yeah, yeah.
[51:25.250 --> 51:26.730]  Well, that's certainly why you hang out with us.
[51:27.790 --> 51:31.130]  But 212-209-2950, what are your initial impressions?
[51:31.270 --> 51:32.930]  You've never actually seen this before tonight, right?
[51:33.010 --> 51:34.330]  No, I haven't actually seen it before tonight.
[51:34.510 --> 51:35.250]  I think it's great.
[51:35.390 --> 51:37.550]  I mean, at first I was sort of like, ah, talking heads.
[51:37.650 --> 51:39.650]  But no, I mean, there's some real action.
[51:39.770 --> 51:40.490]  You get into it eventually.
[51:40.610 --> 51:42.450]  You want to give us a sample and anything in particular?
[51:43.590 --> 51:46.310]  Yeah, something that would translate well on radio.
[51:46.310 --> 51:47.590]  It's like dancing about architecture.
[51:47.590 --> 51:49.850]  You can't really talk about a comic on radio.
[51:49.850 --> 51:50.890]  Yeah, but I think you can.
[51:51.210 --> 51:52.570]  I think you have to dive right in.
[51:52.950 --> 51:53.510]  Let's see what we have.
[51:53.590 --> 51:56.010]  212-209-2950, join the one caller on the line.
[51:56.170 --> 52:00.210]  And we're about to go over $1,000 for the hour, which is great.
[52:00.250 --> 52:01.010]  That's where we want to be.
[52:01.470 --> 52:02.950]  You can be the person that put us over.
[52:03.070 --> 52:04.570]  212-209-2950.
[52:04.750 --> 52:05.150]  Go ahead, Gus.
[52:05.530 --> 52:06.770]  I don't really have anything good.
[52:06.870 --> 52:12.790]  But I love these sort of representations of bulletin boards where everybody's ragging on the main character.
[52:13.630 --> 52:21.710]  You know, so the main characters are cruising this board and they find people saying things like, Boing, thumb, poo, he's irrelevant, obsolete.
[52:21.910 --> 52:24.830]  You know, it's this sort of arrogant, nerdy language.
[52:25.110 --> 52:30.030]  He's worse than the Nazis, you know, eventually, because every form devolves into calling somebody a Nazi at some point.
[52:30.070 --> 52:30.450]  Of course.
[52:30.710 --> 52:37.890]  So, yes, it's sort of, you know, like you see these faces of the people that you imagine behind a bulletin board and they're really, they definitely are crumb.
[52:38.010 --> 52:39.190]  They're very ugly and they have...
[52:39.630 --> 52:43.310]  I'm noticing these sort of dark, soulless eyes, too, on certain people, Ed.
[52:43.310 --> 52:46.530]  What's the story with the people with the sort of black pits for eyes?
[52:48.490 --> 52:49.150]  I don't know.
[52:49.230 --> 52:49.890]  It's just convenient.
[52:50.450 --> 52:53.110]  I'm not a very, like, sort of...
[52:53.110 --> 52:57.030]  There's not much subtext to the stuff I do, so...
[52:57.030 --> 52:57.230]  Gotcha.
[52:57.290 --> 53:00.650]  It was just an exercise in trying to make people look a little bit different.
[53:00.790 --> 53:01.110]  And they do.
[53:01.190 --> 53:04.550]  They have this sort of soulless character and they're a little bit, like, horrible.
[53:05.310 --> 53:12.150]  Now, at one point did, while you were listening to Off the Hook, did you say, I want to put this into graphic novel form?
[53:12.150 --> 53:37.890]  Well, sort of digging deeper and reading the literature that's out there, the, you know, Littman books and, you know, Stephen Levy's book, and just getting to know these characters a bit deeper, where I kind of saw a lot of similarities between Kevin Mitnick,
[53:37.990 --> 53:41.890]  Kevin Poulsen, Fibro-Optic, Bernie, yes, they're just very...
[53:42.450 --> 53:51.910]  I detect the sort of type A personalities, very obsessive qualities, and an extreme curiosity amongst everybody.
[53:51.910 --> 54:06.010]  So the idea behind the story is, what if I had this character who was an analog for all of these people and sort of cram all of their stories into this one vessel and see what happens, see how things play out.
[54:06.390 --> 54:12.410]  And that was the main impetus behind putting the story together.
[54:12.690 --> 54:14.210]  I think it works remarkably well.
[54:14.210 --> 54:22.410]  I mean, you've crammed in a lot more stuff from eras that, you know, don't really overlap necessarily with Kevin or with Emanuel's stuff.
[54:22.570 --> 54:30.450]  And it's a story that works on its own rather than feeling like it's cobbled together out of other stories.
[54:30.970 --> 54:40.070]  Yeah, and another thing about this is that, Ed Piskor, you're actually not a super hacker type of guy who dreams in code or anything.
[54:40.070 --> 54:44.630]  So this goes kind of past all that and tells the very human story behind everything.
[54:44.950 --> 54:46.370]  And I think that's very important.
[54:46.450 --> 54:49.610]  That's something that I really liked about your talk at Nauticon.
[54:49.790 --> 54:52.350]  You were emphasizing how you were not a technical person.
[54:52.390 --> 54:55.950]  You were not a computer nerd of any sort, but you appreciated all this.
[54:56.070 --> 54:58.130]  You got the overall message.
[54:58.350 --> 55:04.650]  And I think sometimes we need to realize that, that you don't have to be super technical and you don't have to be a geek.
[55:04.750 --> 55:09.310]  You don't have to, like, share everything with everybody, but you can still get the overall message.
[55:10.070 --> 55:11.150]  Yeah, thanks a lot.
[55:11.370 --> 55:28.770]  A lot of the psychological traits that I sort of identified with these hackers, I see the same similarities in other cartoonists that I know, in the art field and things like that.
[55:28.770 --> 55:42.450]  So I really identified with a lot of these guys, even though our paths sort of diverted just by, you know, how we decided to express ourselves or whatever.
[55:43.050 --> 55:57.630]  So that was like another interesting thing for me to explore, just kind of get into what it takes to be just like so very obsessive about a particular subject that you will go to any length to acquire the information you need.
[55:58.290 --> 56:01.030]  All right, we're into the last five minutes of the program.
[56:01.210 --> 56:12.850]  We're speaking with Ed Piskor, who has put together two amazing graphic novels based on off-the-hook people and other hacker types in the amazing world that we're involved in.
[56:12.970 --> 56:13.990]  And they're yours.
[56:14.310 --> 56:17.310]  Autographed copies of these two graphic novels are yours.
[56:17.530 --> 56:19.270]  And believe me, these are rarities.
[56:19.350 --> 56:20.890]  You will not find these in your bookstore.
[56:20.890 --> 56:22.170]  And they're incredible.
[56:22.390 --> 56:25.370]  They're very polished and they just look great.
[56:25.550 --> 56:27.170]  They're yours for a pledge of $75.
[56:27.630 --> 56:29.750]  Two autographed copies, two volumes.
[56:29.950 --> 56:31.610]  One freak, one hacker.
[56:32.310 --> 56:35.810]  And it's really an incredible compilation there.
[56:36.170 --> 56:37.090]  Pledge of $75.
[56:37.310 --> 56:39.270]  212-209-2950.
[56:39.270 --> 56:42.030]  Let's have a last-minute flurry here.
[56:42.590 --> 56:47.010]  And again, you'll get the off-the-hook t-shirt as well for that pledge of $75.
[56:47.470 --> 56:57.390]  Now, if you want to share Ed's marvel at the crazy world that we've documented over the last 20 years, well, by all means, pledge $125.
[56:57.470 --> 57:04.590]  And you'll get the entire DVD set, including every single episode of off-the-hook from 1988 to 2008.
[57:04.590 --> 57:09.550]  You'll get the two graphic novels, you'll get the t-shirt, and you'll get a whole bunch of DVDs.
[57:10.390 --> 57:11.730]  212-209-2950.
[57:11.730 --> 57:14.890]  We take Visa, MasterCard, American Express, Discover, all of that.
[57:15.470 --> 57:16.350]  But you've got to call now.
[57:16.470 --> 57:20.930]  You've got to call in the next four minutes or this offer is not going to be around anymore.
[57:21.190 --> 57:23.710]  Yeah, I mean, that's the thing that I think we need to make clear.
[57:23.710 --> 57:26.750]  When we say there's four minutes left in the hour, we mean there's four minutes left.
[57:26.930 --> 57:27.950]  We're going to get emails.
[57:28.090 --> 57:33.650]  I know we're going to get emails from people who listen on the archives, don't listen live, whatever, saying, can I get this?
[57:33.730 --> 57:34.750]  And the answer is no.
[57:34.850 --> 57:35.510]  Yeah, we warned you.
[57:35.650 --> 57:37.310]  We sent out a news alert.
[57:37.490 --> 57:38.670]  We talked about it on the air.
[57:38.690 --> 57:39.050]  We try everything.
[57:39.330 --> 57:39.470]  Yeah.
[57:39.650 --> 57:43.470]  So the people who are listening live, you've got about three and a half minutes left.
[57:44.310 --> 57:45.850]  212-209-2950.
[57:46.150 --> 57:51.430]  And I know there are a lot of people driving around that have heard this show for the first time and are wondering what this is all about.
[57:51.590 --> 57:55.350]  Well, all you need to know, really, is WBAI is an amazingly unique place.
[57:55.370 --> 58:02.010]  And it only exists because people like you pick up the phone and call us and pledge whatever it is you can afford to keep us on the air.
[58:02.150 --> 58:15.010]  And no radio station is as sincere in the area that does that kind of thing, as far as I can find anyway, without any kind of underwriting or commercial announcements or anything like that.
[58:15.130 --> 58:17.290]  We have an incredibly good signal.
[58:17.290 --> 58:18.950]  We get to four different states.
[58:18.950 --> 58:20.530]  And, of course, we're also on the Internet.
[58:20.530 --> 58:24.630]  So you hear an amazing, diverse amount of programming.
[58:24.670 --> 58:27.250]  And you hear all kinds of differing opinions, too.
[58:27.250 --> 58:28.230]  And that's what it's all about.
[58:28.410 --> 58:30.730]  To keep that going, though, we need to hear from you.
[58:30.830 --> 58:32.250]  212-209-2950.
[58:32.250 --> 58:33.310]  We have two calls on the line.
[58:33.450 --> 58:34.630]  Let's get a bunch more.
[58:34.890 --> 58:38.070]  Pledge for these amazing graphic novels that Ed has put together.
[58:38.070 --> 58:39.650]  It's an incredible contribution.
[58:39.990 --> 58:41.990]  And you can make an incredible contribution, too.
[58:42.210 --> 58:43.150]  Three different pledge levels.
[58:43.250 --> 58:44.590]  25, 75, 125.
[58:44.950 --> 58:46.910]  212-209-2950.
[58:47.270 --> 58:53.190]  When we say diversity of opinion, we've got to note that on a commercial radio station, you cannot criticize a corporation.
[58:53.210 --> 58:55.310]  There's basically a chilling effect that makes it so.
[58:55.310 --> 59:01.850]  So if you want to talk about what some large moneyed organization is doing wrong, you can't do that if you're going to have advertising.
[59:02.110 --> 59:04.470]  So it's important to maintain a non-commercial channel.
[59:04.750 --> 59:06.790]  And the user support is the only way to do that.
[59:06.910 --> 59:08.130]  Three calls on the line.
[59:08.290 --> 59:08.550]  I'm sorry.
[59:08.650 --> 59:08.730]  Go ahead.
[59:08.730 --> 59:13.170]  I'd just say even NPR is like that with their, you know, they say they're a non-profit, but they still have corporate sponsors.
[59:13.170 --> 59:13.450]  Oh, yeah.
[59:13.570 --> 59:14.030]  Very much so.
[59:14.130 --> 59:14.370]  Very much so.
[59:14.370 --> 59:16.810]  Not to put them down, but it's different.
[59:16.930 --> 59:18.110]  It's a different ballgame completely.
[59:19.050 --> 59:23.150]  BAI is, it's the voice of the people as much as it can possibly be.
[59:23.270 --> 59:25.290]  And your voice is what's needed right now.
[59:25.290 --> 59:29.410]  Now, 212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[59:29.890 --> 59:30.850]  Again, three levels.
[59:30.970 --> 59:32.510]  $25 will get you an Off the Hook shirt.
[59:32.790 --> 59:35.850]  $75 will get you the two graphic novels plus the Off the Hook shirt.
[59:36.530 --> 59:45.670]  $125 will get you the two graphic novels, the Off the Hook shirt, and a complete compilation of Off the Hook DVDs from our very first show in 1988 to the end of 2008.
[59:45.670 --> 59:47.630]  212-209-2950.
[59:47.970 --> 59:49.610]  We have four calls on the line.
[59:49.890 --> 59:52.050]  Let's make that six or seven or eight.
[59:52.330 --> 59:54.010]  Thanks so much for all your support.
[59:54.210 --> 59:56.270]  Thanks, Ed, so much for what you've done.
[59:56.530 --> 01:00:00.190]  And I look forward to talking with you in the future about all kinds of other things.
[01:00:00.710 --> 01:00:01.290]  Yeah, thanks a lot.
[01:00:01.410 --> 01:00:05.230]  You know, it's an extreme privilege to participate in the program tonight.
[01:00:05.670 --> 01:00:07.250]  And it's a privilege having you on.
[01:00:07.410 --> 01:00:10.790]  Thanks for inspiring us with what you've put out.
[01:00:11.310 --> 01:00:14.530]  And again, one more time, 212-209-2950.
[01:00:14.530 --> 01:00:15.490]  That's our telephone number.
[01:00:15.490 --> 01:00:16.650]  Thanks to everybody calling in.
[01:00:16.770 --> 01:00:17.490]  We'll see you next week.
[01:00:17.570 --> 01:00:17.690]  Good night.
[01:00:44.740 --> 01:00:46.660]  We'll see you next week.
[01:01:10.570 --> 01:01:14.210]  We'll see you next week.
[01:01:14.210 --> 01:01:15.270]  I'm so sweet on the line.
[01:01:16.950 --> 01:01:18.270]  Telephone love.
[01:01:18.650 --> 01:01:20.910]  You make my day return.
[01:01:21.970 --> 01:01:22.130]  Yeah.
[01:01:22.830 --> 01:01:24.110]  Telephone love.
[01:01:24.810 --> 01:01:26.970]  You sound so sweet on the line.
[01:01:28.650 --> 01:01:29.930]  Telephone love.
[01:01:30.590 --> 01:01:32.410]  You make my day return.
[01:01:34.790 --> 01:01:36.330]  Whatever you do,
[01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:44.140]  just keep stirring it up till you fill my cup.
[01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:56.560]  But when you call my name, I feel so weak.
[01:01:57.860 --> 01:01:59.200]  Telephone love.
[01:01:59.820 --> 01:02:01.960]  You sound so sweet on the line.