[00:00.000 --> 00:04.800]  Ricardo Martinez, Free Speech Radio News, San Salvador, El Salvador.
[00:07.870 --> 00:10.670]  You've been listening to Free Speech Radio News.
[00:10.670 --> 00:16.650]  Our newscast is supported by Pacifica Radio, community radio affiliate stations and listener supporters.
[00:17.170 --> 00:20.370]  Today's newscast was produced by Catherine Komp and Vinod K.
[00:20.570 --> 00:20.950]  Joes.
[00:21.230 --> 00:28.810]  Headlines editor Nell Abram and the technical production team at KPFA in Berkeley includes Rose Katopchi and Pac Lowe.
[00:29.170 --> 00:31.870]  From Bogota, Colombia, I'm Manuel Rueda.
[00:33.750 --> 00:40.290]  And here in the studios, it's time for Off the Hook on WBAI New York.
[00:45.670 --> 00:50.150]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:51.090 --> 00:55.630]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:56.270 --> 01:03.850]  We couldn't get much worse on Billy Bones, but the best is paid for worse.
[01:04.770 --> 01:06.450]  I hope that's understood.
[01:06.590 --> 01:07.490]  One day, let me know.
[02:10.790 --> 02:12.790]  And giving to everybody the program is Off the Hook.
[02:12.890 --> 02:15.690]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:16.710 --> 02:17.470]  Yes, thank you, Mike.
[02:17.510 --> 02:17.610]  Sorry.
[02:19.470 --> 02:21.870]  Joined by Mike and his phone making noise.
[02:22.010 --> 02:23.710]  It's telling me information about the show.
[02:23.770 --> 02:24.330]  Okay, that's good.
[02:24.450 --> 02:28.050]  Does it tell you the show is on from 7 to 8 every Wednesday night on WBAI New York?
[02:28.190 --> 02:29.110]  It does tell me that.
[02:29.170 --> 02:29.870]  Good, good.
[02:30.090 --> 02:31.090]  That was what the beeping meant.
[02:31.190 --> 02:32.330]  That's handy information to have.
[02:32.330 --> 02:35.410]  That voice piping up now is that of Red Hacked.
[02:35.530 --> 02:35.710]  I do.
[02:36.110 --> 02:37.510]  Let's talk after we're introduced.
[02:37.690 --> 02:38.490]  Let's make that a new role.
[02:39.030 --> 02:39.290]  Jim.
[02:39.770 --> 02:40.190]  Hi.
[02:40.310 --> 02:40.890]  How are you doing?
[02:41.730 --> 02:43.970]  And we have Voltaire over there.
[02:44.110 --> 02:44.650]  Sotomayor.
[02:44.950 --> 02:45.790]  Yeah, Sotomayor.
[02:46.270 --> 02:49.110]  And down in Philadelphia, we have Bernie S.
[02:49.490 --> 02:50.930]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:51.950 --> 02:55.830]  And guest joining us in the studio today, we have A-Team joining us from Florida.
[02:56.170 --> 02:56.530]  Hello.
[02:57.290 --> 03:02.090]  And Matt Lee from the Free Software Foundation, which I guess isn't really a place.
[03:02.350 --> 03:03.630]  No, it's a group.
[03:03.770 --> 03:04.230]  It's a group.
[03:04.470 --> 03:04.710]  Hey.
[03:04.790 --> 03:05.670]  But it might as well be a place.
[03:05.850 --> 03:06.390]  And welcome.
[03:07.790 --> 03:09.570]  And, well, let's have Mitch Altman here, right?
[03:09.570 --> 03:10.170]  Is he on his way?
[03:10.490 --> 03:11.510]  I have information.
[03:11.550 --> 03:13.950]  I won't tell you how I got it, that he is here now.
[03:14.050 --> 03:15.990]  But I don't actually see him here now.
[03:16.070 --> 03:17.510]  Did his brain machine make him invisible?
[03:18.290 --> 03:19.330]  Mitch, are you in the room?
[03:19.330 --> 03:20.310]  Say something if you are.
[03:20.470 --> 03:20.710]  Hold on.
[03:21.670 --> 03:24.090]  No, I don't think he is, unless it also makes his voice invisible.
[03:24.990 --> 03:31.090]  Well, Mitch will be here when he does get into the room to answer the question, where are the brain machines from the Winter Fundraiser?
[03:31.250 --> 03:34.110]  And that's definitely a question that's being asked by a lot of people.
[03:34.190 --> 03:35.750]  But don't worry, we're on top of it.
[03:36.470 --> 03:38.610]  We have all kinds of things going on tonight.
[03:39.050 --> 03:40.250]  We have special guests on the phone.
[03:40.370 --> 03:41.290]  We have a special guest on the phone.
[03:41.850 --> 03:52.770]  Joining us now from the exotic country of Holland is our friend Kuhn, who is one of the organizers of the upcoming Hacking at Random conference, HARD 2009.
[03:53.170 --> 03:53.750]  Kun, are you with us?
[03:54.970 --> 03:55.330]  Hi.
[03:55.470 --> 03:56.750]  Yeah, great to be on the show again.
[03:57.170 --> 03:57.530]  Yes.
[03:57.710 --> 04:01.410]  Yes, not the first time you've been on, not talking about the conference, but it's a month away now.
[04:01.570 --> 04:03.450]  So tell us what you guys have in store.
[04:04.230 --> 04:04.750]  Oh, yes.
[04:04.810 --> 04:10.030]  It's a month away, and it's getting pretty busy with sorting out the details.
[04:10.870 --> 04:14.350]  We have basically just released a program.
[04:14.750 --> 04:18.150]  There are over 100 lectures on various subjects.
[04:18.410 --> 04:26.170]  And, well, some of the things I really like is, for example, the keynote is being done by the guys from WikiLeaks.
[04:27.010 --> 04:34.690]  And they've been doing some very important stuff, making information available that people want to keep hidden.
[04:34.910 --> 04:36.510]  And I think that's very important.
[04:36.510 --> 04:38.230]  And it's great that they are coming over.
[04:40.010 --> 04:40.530]  Wow.
[04:40.730 --> 04:43.490]  And you say that there's over 100 talks over...
[04:44.030 --> 04:45.530]  What are the exact dates of HARD again?
[04:46.650 --> 04:50.310]  It's on August 13th till August 16th.
[04:51.110 --> 04:51.430]  Okay.
[04:52.290 --> 04:58.510]  And it is still possible, if you have not yet gotten your tickets, to get tickets to HARD.
[04:59.490 --> 05:01.630]  Now, on your website, what is your website?
[05:03.370 --> 05:05.750]  It's HARD 2009.org.
[05:05.750 --> 05:09.850]  So, that's H-A-R 2009 dot O-R-G.
[05:10.470 --> 05:10.930]  Okay.
[05:10.990 --> 05:16.430]  And I understand there's still a period of pre-registration before the rates go.
[05:16.430 --> 05:20.170]  We can't go into specifics on what the rates are, but if you can tell us when they go up, that would be helpful.
[05:20.770 --> 05:23.050]  So, that will be July 20th.
[05:23.230 --> 05:25.210]  Then we will close the pre-sale.
[05:25.450 --> 05:29.830]  And you can only get the tickets at the same price that they will be at the door.
[05:30.710 --> 05:30.990]  Okay.
[05:32.930 --> 05:33.490]  And, wow.
[05:34.030 --> 05:39.050]  This is the first outdoor Dutch hacker conference since...
[05:39.050 --> 05:39.790]  What was the last one?
[05:39.970 --> 05:40.330]  It was...
[05:40.330 --> 05:41.030]  What the hack?
[05:41.250 --> 05:41.910]  In 2005.
[05:42.330 --> 05:42.410]  Yeah.
[05:43.070 --> 05:43.350]  2005.
[05:43.370 --> 05:44.450]  And how many of us were there?
[05:44.510 --> 05:45.310]  I think I was there.
[05:45.370 --> 05:45.930]  I was there, I guess.
[05:46.290 --> 05:47.070]  And Mike was there.
[05:47.130 --> 05:47.830]  And Red Hack, you were there.
[05:48.570 --> 05:49.130]  And that's...
[05:49.130 --> 05:49.770]  Mitch, you weren't there?
[05:49.890 --> 05:50.750]  Oh, Mitch is here, by the way.
[05:50.870 --> 05:51.530]  Mitch has arrived.
[05:51.710 --> 05:51.910]  Welcome.
[05:52.050 --> 05:52.170]  Hi.
[05:52.290 --> 05:53.170]  I was there.
[05:53.510 --> 05:54.090]  Bernie, of course.
[05:54.150 --> 05:54.690]  Yeah, I didn't see you.
[06:05.430 --> 06:13.910]  I found it one of the most enriching social events slash learning experiences of my life.
[06:14.010 --> 06:34.510]  It was just sort of a full immersion in the global hacker community where there were, like Har, probably over a hundred different presentations by very knowledgeable people from around the world on everything you always wanted to know about almost anything and stuff you didn't even know about that once you've heard about it was,
[06:34.670 --> 06:36.630]  like, wow, really interesting stuff.
[06:36.930 --> 06:45.110]  And, of course, you know, meeting people from all around the world that have this whole share the hacker ethic and the camaraderie is just an amazing thing.
[06:45.110 --> 06:52.230]  And building a city in the middle of nowhere in a matter of days to accommodate thousands of hackers is something really impressive.
[06:52.230 --> 06:59.850]  So, anybody that can make it to the Netherlands for hard this year, I recommend it because a camp like this only happens once every four years.
[07:00.370 --> 07:10.110]  Yeah, I think one of the really great things about these camps and these conferences in Europe in general is you really get a wide range of people from all over the place, all different countries.
[07:10.510 --> 07:14.670]  It's a lot easier over there because, you know, the countries are a lot closer together than over here.
[07:15.950 --> 07:18.750]  And the conference, I mean, for me, what the hack was amazing.
[07:19.110 --> 07:23.130]  It was, you know, the range of talks, everything was so interesting.
[07:23.750 --> 07:28.010]  There's really not a lot of distraction, you know, when you have a conference in a big city, you know, people are going here and there.
[07:28.110 --> 07:36.670]  But here, you're all kind of focused on one thing, the major distractions at what the hack where you could go, I guess, watch the trains go by and go look at some nearby farms.
[07:36.770 --> 07:44.510]  But really, you know, you can just spend time talking to people and getting to know other people from all over the place, going to all different kinds of talks.
[07:44.510 --> 07:50.930]  And it's just, like, really, really cool and fun and definitely worth going to.
[07:51.030 --> 07:57.210]  And if you haven't decided to go, I hope you do now because this is really something that doesn't happen very often.
[07:57.210 --> 07:58.770]  And it's a great thing to be at.
[07:58.770 --> 08:02.030]  It's going to be interesting, too, because a lot of people here at the show will be over there.
[08:02.290 --> 08:05.710]  In fact, I think we're going to have one or two people left that won't be over there.
[08:05.750 --> 08:16.010]  So you're going to hear some interesting radio programs coming from the horror camp and maybe a week or two before and after as well as we're wandering around.
[08:16.030 --> 08:16.350]  And then you'll be jealous.
[08:16.770 --> 08:17.090]  Yeah.
[08:17.230 --> 08:17.830]  That you weren't there.
[08:17.830 --> 08:18.110]  You'll be upset.
[08:18.230 --> 08:20.150]  And this is your chance to fix that.
[08:20.230 --> 08:21.470]  You can still get decent airfare.
[08:21.730 --> 08:25.950]  And you might even want to take part in Hackers on a Plane, which you talked about last week.
[08:26.010 --> 08:26.910]  I think you can still get on that.
[08:27.030 --> 08:27.390]  If it's...
[08:27.890 --> 08:29.310]  Check it out, hackersonflane.info.
[08:29.430 --> 08:30.990]  If you can, then I met you in nodding your head.
[08:31.070 --> 08:31.770]  So I guess you can.
[08:32.250 --> 08:32.570]  Yeah.
[08:32.670 --> 08:34.650]  The drop dead deadline is Friday.
[08:34.930 --> 08:35.290]  Oh, it is Friday.
[08:35.350 --> 08:35.530]  Okay.
[08:35.630 --> 08:35.770]  Yeah.
[08:35.910 --> 08:36.130]  All right.
[08:41.570 --> 08:46.990]  Vienna and Germany and Holland or just go to the horror camp and pay one price for that.
[08:47.890 --> 08:57.050]  You know, it's what I found I remember really interesting about this kind of thing is because you have such an open space and you have these open fields, people who come to the conferences tend to do their own projects.
[08:57.270 --> 09:03.470]  You know, when you have a conference in a hotel, there are groups that have set up, you know, okay, we're going to do this workshop at this time.
[09:03.570 --> 09:12.390]  But really, when you have an open space like this, people can just come set up a tent and show off their project because really, there's no space limitations.
[09:12.390 --> 09:14.490]  You have this entire field to work with.
[09:14.650 --> 09:16.050]  And I thought that was really cool.
[09:16.130 --> 09:21.890]  I remember there being all kinds of art projects and just tech projects out there that, you know, all over the place.
[09:22.110 --> 09:28.390]  One that really impressed me last time where I thought was interesting, someone had built their own geodesic dome tent.
[09:28.630 --> 09:28.890]  Yes.
[09:29.070 --> 09:39.490]  And then they had taken a projector, they'd pointed it at a round silver bowl, essentially, and then written software to warp video so that when it was projected on that bowl, it would cover the entire ceiling.
[09:39.630 --> 09:44.930]  So they basically created their own kind of planetarium and they were showing space videos and all kinds of things.
[09:45.050 --> 09:46.750]  And then they really had this kind of wraparound experience.
[09:46.910 --> 09:48.310]  That was just a neat thing.
[09:48.390 --> 09:49.510]  And, you know, you can do...
[09:49.510 --> 09:51.970]  People do all sorts of things like that at these conferences.
[09:52.350 --> 09:53.110]  So it's really neat.
[09:53.110 --> 09:56.410]  Kun, can you tell us something about some of the other talks and some highlights?
[09:58.150 --> 09:58.510]  Sure.
[09:58.670 --> 09:58.770]  Yeah.
[09:59.010 --> 10:01.550]  It's something I find personally very interesting.
[10:02.370 --> 10:07.870]  It's a series of talks on the GSM network, the mobile phone network.
[10:08.310 --> 10:12.710]  I mean, most people think of that as something that's still very secure.
[10:12.710 --> 10:20.790]  If you want to transmit something that you don't want others to know, like passwords or something, you send an SMS.
[10:21.070 --> 10:35.870]  Well, these series of talks, basically, they explain that the GSM network is almost a done deal by sniffing it and decrypting the traffic that's going over the GSM network.
[10:36.690 --> 10:40.910]  So, yeah, so that's some pretty interesting stuff for me.
[10:42.930 --> 10:44.510]  Let me see what else is there.
[10:44.890 --> 10:45.890]  There's so much.
[10:46.310 --> 10:52.950]  I mean, I would say go over to our site and look at what's on the program because it's so much.
[10:52.950 --> 10:56.390]  I really can't pick anything that would be my favorite, really.
[10:56.470 --> 10:59.690]  Yeah, I know the feeling because we do this every couple of years, too, here in New York.
[10:59.830 --> 11:09.190]  And just to try and sum it up by picking four or five talks is tough because they're all interesting and good and appealing to some segment of our audience.
[11:09.490 --> 11:10.930]  So, yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[11:10.930 --> 11:26.910]  I was just going to say, isn't the theme or one of the themes of HAR, the camp that's held every one of every four years, is it not about privacy and government surveillance?
[11:27.130 --> 11:29.110]  Is that not one of the overriding themes?
[11:30.730 --> 11:31.850]  It's hard to say.
[11:32.010 --> 11:36.390]  I mean, I was asked the very same question a few days ago by a Dutch journalist.
[11:36.390 --> 11:41.630]  What is the single message or the single thing you want to convey?
[11:42.090 --> 11:47.910]  But it's impossible to say because there's just so much and it's so varied in content.
[11:49.890 --> 11:50.810]  There's so much.
[11:50.970 --> 11:52.630]  Yeah, it's hard to say.
[11:52.730 --> 11:53.130]  I'm sorry.
[11:54.370 --> 11:54.550]  Yeah.
[11:55.130 --> 12:01.670]  Well, so HAR2009.org is the website for all the information on how to register, how to...
[12:02.630 --> 12:04.870]  what's going to be presented during...
[12:04.870 --> 12:06.110]  It was the four days or five days?
[12:06.930 --> 12:08.150]  It's a four-day event.
[12:08.310 --> 12:08.550]  Four days.
[12:08.670 --> 12:08.850]  Okay.
[12:08.990 --> 12:10.970]  But when can you actually show up?
[12:11.770 --> 12:18.470]  You can show up as early as August 7, but then we will still be very busy building all the tents and stuff.
[12:18.630 --> 12:22.570]  But we can always use help with that because there's a lot to build up.
[12:22.890 --> 12:27.790]  That is one of the most valuable things you can do is show up early and help out and just become part of the whole community.
[12:28.030 --> 12:30.030]  You watch it get built in front of you.
[12:30.110 --> 12:33.170]  You see a field turn into a small city.
[12:34.010 --> 12:37.280]  And you'll be incredibly sad when it's over and when it gets dismantled.
[12:37.850 --> 12:40.270]  But it's an experience like...
[12:40.810 --> 12:43.510]  We experience this every now and then, but so many people don't.
[12:43.610 --> 12:46.290]  So if you're thinking about going, definitely go.
[12:47.870 --> 12:48.430]  All right.
[12:48.430 --> 12:48.890]  Absolutely.
[12:49.250 --> 12:52.190]  It stays with you for months after the event, years even.
[12:52.450 --> 12:53.990]  It's a great experience.
[12:54.750 --> 12:55.270]  Hey, Kuhn.
[12:55.410 --> 12:58.530]  Is the special 2600 coupon still working?
[12:59.850 --> 13:00.330]  Absolutely.
[13:00.570 --> 13:00.670]  Yeah.
[13:00.750 --> 13:00.870]  Yeah.
[13:00.910 --> 13:07.850]  If you enter 2600 as a coupon code in the ticket shop, you get an extra discount.
[13:08.130 --> 13:08.230]  Yeah.
[13:08.770 --> 13:09.010]  Okay.
[13:09.130 --> 13:09.310]  Cool.
[13:09.690 --> 13:09.850]  Cool.
[13:10.030 --> 13:10.230]  Mitch.
[13:10.650 --> 13:10.990]  Yeah.
[13:11.050 --> 13:12.570]  So I've never been to a Dutch event.
[13:12.710 --> 13:13.890]  I'm really looking forward to it.
[13:13.890 --> 13:14.130]  Really?
[13:14.150 --> 13:15.150]  You've never been to a Dutch event?
[13:15.390 --> 13:15.710]  No.
[13:15.710 --> 13:16.390]  Wow.
[13:16.490 --> 13:17.050]  How did that happen?
[13:17.090 --> 13:17.910]  I thought you went to everything.
[13:18.230 --> 13:19.670]  Well, I have since I started.
[13:19.870 --> 13:21.970]  My first hacker conference was actually Hope 6.
[13:22.210 --> 13:22.590]  Really?
[13:22.850 --> 13:22.990]  Yeah.
[13:23.370 --> 13:25.670]  Somehow I just thought you were always going to these things.
[13:25.950 --> 13:26.210]  Yeah.
[13:26.270 --> 13:29.270]  Well, of course, I've been reading 2600 since forever.
[13:29.490 --> 13:29.710]  Yeah.
[13:29.810 --> 13:30.510]  But, wow.
[13:30.630 --> 13:31.270]  That's something.
[13:31.490 --> 13:34.770]  That just shows you how quickly things can change.
[13:34.810 --> 13:40.550]  And people can be thought of as always being a part of the whole hacker scene and the hacker conference scene.
[13:41.030 --> 13:42.590]  2006 was your first conference.
[13:42.770 --> 13:43.510]  First hacker conference.
[13:43.750 --> 13:43.930]  Yeah.
[13:44.050 --> 13:44.450]  Hope 6.
[13:44.570 --> 13:45.370]  And it changed my life.
[13:45.370 --> 13:47.510]  So, I just felt at home.
[13:47.650 --> 13:54.370]  And from there, of course, I went to 23C3 and every chaos event since.
[13:54.590 --> 13:55.150]  Think about that.
[13:55.270 --> 13:59.210]  If you're considering going to this, in three years, you could be as respected as Mitch Altman.
[14:00.330 --> 14:01.250]  It could happen.
[14:01.570 --> 14:01.970]  Wow.
[14:02.430 --> 14:03.170]  That's unbelievable.
[14:03.710 --> 14:04.450]  So, yeah.
[14:04.710 --> 14:05.790]  You're going to love it over there.
[14:05.990 --> 14:07.230]  I mean, I assume you've been to Holland, though.
[14:07.230 --> 14:08.050]  Oh, yeah.
[14:08.170 --> 14:11.270]  I've been to Amsterdam and Delft and a few places.
[14:11.350 --> 14:14.130]  And I really like the culture there.
[14:14.390 --> 14:16.010]  And, yeah.
[14:16.090 --> 14:19.230]  But, Haar, I'm really looking forward to.
[14:19.390 --> 14:24.050]  If it's a fraction as inspiring as Camp 2007 in Berlin.
[14:24.050 --> 14:24.730]  The Germans, yes.
[14:24.730 --> 14:27.770]  I'm going to be incredibly happy that I went.
[14:27.950 --> 14:29.750]  And I don't think I'm going to be disappointed.
[14:30.350 --> 14:35.390]  Going to Camp in 2007 was incredibly inspirational for me.
[14:35.970 --> 14:41.470]  I went home from there and knew that I was going to start a hackerspace in San Francisco, my hometown.
[14:42.510 --> 14:46.110]  And all I had to do was put the word out, and it just happened.
[14:46.330 --> 14:46.970]  And Noisebridge.
[14:47.150 --> 14:47.970]  Noisebridge happened.
[14:48.310 --> 14:53.130]  Met some of the Noisebridge people at tour camp a couple weeks ago, and they were awesome people.
[14:53.690 --> 14:58.030]  And the HackerBot Labs from Seattle, those are incredible people, too.
[14:58.950 --> 15:01.910]  And that was the camp here in the States.
[15:01.910 --> 15:06.750]  It's, I guess, attendance-wise, probably going to be ten times as many people at the Dutch camp.
[15:06.890 --> 15:10.130]  So imagine all the cool people you're going to meet if you show up over there.
[15:10.330 --> 15:13.250]  It's not intimidating to go to a foreign country in case you're worried about that.
[15:13.250 --> 15:14.490]  They all speak English in Holland.
[15:14.830 --> 15:18.410]  In fact, Kuhn, is the official language of the conference English?
[15:19.530 --> 15:20.290]  Absolutely, yeah.
[15:20.370 --> 15:25.130]  All the lectures, maybe one or two exceptions, but they will all be in English.
[15:25.130 --> 15:29.370]  And most people there will speak English quite well.
[15:30.190 --> 15:31.750]  Freakless really well, I would even say.
[15:31.910 --> 15:33.290]  Yeah, better than we do sometimes.
[15:34.510 --> 15:36.310]  They understand grammar and spelling and all that.
[15:36.810 --> 15:44.770]  But if you've never been overseas, Simple Matter, getting your passport, if you haven't done that yet, it's pretty simple and straightforward to do and quick.
[15:44.990 --> 15:46.290]  You should be able to get in plenty of time.
[15:47.410 --> 15:49.730]  Finding cheap airfare, that's a challenge, but you can do it.
[15:49.870 --> 15:52.290]  Well, I think, no, hasn't the airfare been going down?
[15:52.570 --> 15:53.590]  It was going down.
[15:53.690 --> 15:54.470]  It was bobbing up a little bit.
[15:54.510 --> 15:55.250]  But you just got to keep looking.
[15:55.410 --> 15:57.890]  You got to keep looking and be a little flexible as to where you wind up going.
[15:57.970 --> 15:58.230]  Voltaire?
[15:58.230 --> 16:05.850]  Yeah, the air tickets aren't as cheap as they were like a few months ago, but still they're a lot cheaper than they were like last year or probably next year.
[16:05.990 --> 16:07.850]  And sometimes you can find last minute deals.
[16:08.170 --> 16:11.290]  And there are things like Air Hitch, which still exists, believe it or not.
[16:11.410 --> 16:14.110]  And you can get to Europe for a really, really cheap price.
[16:14.250 --> 16:16.790]  But you're not entirely sure where you're going to wind up.
[16:16.890 --> 16:17.650]  That's the challenge.
[16:17.770 --> 16:19.350]  But if you're flexible, that's great.
[16:19.490 --> 16:21.430]  You know, the first time I ever went over there, I used a service like that.
[16:21.470 --> 16:23.050]  Train tickets are extremely inexpensive.
[16:23.050 --> 16:24.650]  Especially if you're young, yes.
[16:24.850 --> 16:29.890]  I think what we're trying to say is if it's within your means to go to this conference, you will definitely enjoy it.
[16:29.950 --> 16:31.550]  You will definitely come away with something.
[16:31.830 --> 16:33.170]  Yes, most definitely.
[16:33.530 --> 16:36.610]  Kun, anything else you want to tell us before we let you go?
[16:37.770 --> 16:42.990]  Well, just that I think it would be very good if more people from the States come over.
[16:42.990 --> 16:51.650]  So, yeah, we can create more of a global feel of the hacker community and keep those connections alive and happening.
[16:52.270 --> 16:55.170]  I think that's the last thing I would say to you.
[16:55.270 --> 16:58.190]  Just come over because we want you there.
[16:58.370 --> 17:02.550]  Do you think not enough people come from the States to the conferences in Europe and the camps?
[17:03.490 --> 17:04.590]  I'm sorry, what was the question?
[17:04.590 --> 17:07.010]  Do you think not enough Americans show up at these things?
[17:07.110 --> 17:10.010]  Do you think we should have a much larger contingent?
[17:12.070 --> 17:14.170]  Well, it would always be nice.
[17:14.330 --> 17:18.250]  I mean, there are quite a lot of people from the States and, for example, Canada.
[17:18.550 --> 17:21.190]  So, it's not that they're not going.
[17:21.270 --> 17:22.890]  But there always can be more, I think.
[17:22.970 --> 17:24.750]  But I understand it's difficult.
[17:24.910 --> 17:27.450]  It's far away, but it's really worth it.
[17:27.570 --> 17:30.610]  Yeah, the difficult things in life are the ones worth doing, usually.
[17:31.290 --> 17:31.610]  Absolutely.
[17:31.830 --> 17:36.690]  But tell us something about the range of where people come from to these conferences.
[17:36.690 --> 17:38.350]  Is it pretty much all corners of the earth?
[17:39.070 --> 17:39.990]  Pretty much, yeah.
[17:41.070 --> 17:45.390]  Unsurprisingly, most people are from the Netherlands itself, of course.
[17:45.850 --> 17:47.210]  We all have a lot of Germans.
[17:47.890 --> 17:57.470]  But for the rest, everywhere, I mean, from Singapore to New Zealand, there will be people, I think, almost from every country in the world.
[17:57.570 --> 17:59.170]  But that's maybe a bit pretentious.
[17:59.330 --> 18:01.210]  But what I've seen, it's difficult, of course.
[18:01.210 --> 18:04.250]  Because we don't exactly track where people are coming from, et cetera.
[18:04.490 --> 18:08.670]  But looking at what I've seen, pretty much all over the world, yeah.
[18:08.670 --> 18:08.890]  Okay.
[18:08.910 --> 18:11.630]  And the North Koreans I'd like to talk to, if they come.
[18:12.170 --> 18:12.570]  Okay.
[18:13.550 --> 18:13.990]  Definitely.
[18:14.390 --> 18:14.910]  Can you...
[18:14.910 --> 18:15.650]  One final question.
[18:15.650 --> 18:23.750]  Can you tell us how this space compares to either the what-the-hack space or the German camp of 2007?
[18:24.810 --> 18:27.050]  I think this place is more...
[18:27.050 --> 18:28.950]  It's, well, it's more cozy.
[18:29.130 --> 18:32.550]  There are more secluded areas with trees, et cetera.
[18:32.770 --> 18:35.570]  It's a bit smaller, I think, than what-the-hack.
[18:35.570 --> 18:40.150]  So we will have to be a bit creative with space, but we'll manage, I think.
[18:40.250 --> 18:41.430]  But it's beautiful there.
[18:41.590 --> 18:46.070]  It's one of the nature reserves in Holland, one of the last.
[18:48.250 --> 18:50.330]  It's trees and heatland.
[18:50.910 --> 18:51.950]  It's beautiful.
[18:52.230 --> 18:54.350]  When we first came there, we fell in love.
[18:54.550 --> 18:59.030]  And since then, we keep enjoying coming back there to plant things.
[18:59.190 --> 19:00.610]  And it's just beautiful.
[19:00.610 --> 19:08.310]  Well, now, if I'm not mistaken, there have been Dutch hacker camps in 1993, 1997, 2001, 2005, and now 2009.
[19:08.630 --> 19:18.790]  And in addition, there have been German camps in 2007, 2003, and 1999.
[19:18.910 --> 19:23.650]  Have any of those camps ever taken place on the same space?
[19:24.670 --> 19:26.330]  I don't think so.
[19:26.350 --> 19:27.590]  They've all been different spaces.
[19:27.590 --> 19:31.890]  You've been able to find so many different spaces in two countries.
[19:32.470 --> 19:32.790]  And...
[19:32.790 --> 19:34.070]  It's amazing.
[19:34.210 --> 19:34.770]  That is amazing.
[19:35.510 --> 19:38.850]  Even in the Netherlands, which is quite a small country, actually.
[19:39.050 --> 19:44.770]  I mean, I think your smallest state is bigger than our country.
[19:45.690 --> 19:46.850]  That could very well be.
[19:46.930 --> 19:49.150]  And I don't think we could find a single place in Rhode Island, could we?
[19:49.150 --> 19:51.290]  Rhode Island's about the size of...
[19:52.570 --> 19:53.050]  Yes.
[19:54.230 --> 19:58.570]  Wow, so that tells me that you have a lot of interesting spaces that you can have these things at.
[19:59.870 --> 20:00.210]  Absolutely.
[20:00.470 --> 20:00.770]  Absolutely.
[20:01.790 --> 20:03.790]  All right, Kuma, I want to thank you very much for joining us.
[20:03.830 --> 20:07.230]  I'm sure you're extremely busy now, and I'm sure the staff is extremely busy.
[20:07.330 --> 20:11.190]  But give us the details one more time as far as the dates and the website and all that.
[20:11.930 --> 20:13.450]  Okay, so it's Hacking at Random.
[20:13.450 --> 20:19.670]  And it's in the Netherlands from August 13th till August 16th.
[20:19.830 --> 20:22.850]  You can arrive earlier if you want on August 7th.
[20:22.970 --> 20:23.910]  You are already welcome.
[20:24.950 --> 20:31.670]  All the details are on our website, har2009.org.
[20:31.790 --> 20:34.390]  That's har2009.org.
[20:34.570 --> 20:39.210]  And from there, it links to the wiki, to the ticket shop, to the program, everything.
[20:40.870 --> 20:41.950]  Okay, amazing.
[20:42.450 --> 20:43.490]  Coon, thank you so much.
[20:43.670 --> 20:44.950]  Thank everybody over there for us.
[20:45.050 --> 20:47.210]  And we look forward to seeing you in just under a month.
[20:48.730 --> 20:49.090]  Super.
[20:49.390 --> 20:50.510]  Thank you for having me again.
[20:50.710 --> 20:51.590]  All right, take care.
[20:52.110 --> 20:52.690]  Bye-bye.
[20:53.110 --> 20:56.230]  And that truly is going to be the Hacker event of the year, I think.
[20:56.890 --> 20:57.610]  Horror 2009.
[20:58.930 --> 21:01.410]  Just curious who from this room is going to be there.
[21:01.510 --> 21:04.330]  Red Hecht, you're going to be there, Mitch, and Voltaire, and Mike.
[21:04.870 --> 21:06.450]  And I guess I'm going to be there as well.
[21:06.810 --> 21:07.170]  Okay.
[21:07.310 --> 21:07.790]  I'll be there.
[21:07.790 --> 21:09.630]  And Bernie, yeah, you know, I still can't see you.
[21:09.990 --> 21:11.050]  You're going to be there as well.
[21:11.590 --> 21:14.070]  And hopefully a lot of our listeners will be there in addition.
[21:14.310 --> 21:15.310]  It'll be a blast.
[21:15.690 --> 21:16.650]  Really looking forward to it.
[21:17.290 --> 21:17.570]  Okay.
[21:17.730 --> 21:20.950]  Hey, you know, something interesting is going on this weekend here in New York.
[21:21.230 --> 21:27.690]  This is kind of strange and bizarre and a flashback to The Last Hope took place last year.
[21:28.210 --> 21:31.750]  Remember that crazy German soda that we were selling over there?
[21:31.950 --> 21:32.230]  Yeah.
[21:32.610 --> 21:33.730]  What do we call it, Mike?
[21:33.930 --> 21:34.870]  What's the right way to pronounce it?
[21:35.510 --> 21:35.910]  Klubmata.
[21:36.230 --> 21:36.630]  Klubmata.
[21:36.630 --> 21:41.570]  I say clubmate, and I know that's wrong because that's how it's spelled.
[21:41.750 --> 21:44.210]  But Klubmata is how we probably should say from now on.
[21:45.110 --> 21:46.390]  And what we're going...
[21:46.390 --> 21:49.170]  We just got five more pallets of this stuff.
[21:49.310 --> 21:52.310]  Now, you want to describe what a pallet is for people that aren't longshoremen?
[21:52.710 --> 21:58.950]  A pallet is a flat wooden thing that you put on the ground, and then you put stuff on top of it.
[21:59.010 --> 22:05.470]  And the advantage is you can stick a forklift or something into the pallet to lift and carry a whole bunch of stuff all at once.
[22:06.070 --> 22:07.710]  That wasn't the best description.
[22:08.410 --> 22:09.330]  It's a piece of wood.
[22:09.410 --> 22:09.750]  That's what a pallet...
[22:09.750 --> 22:10.250]  Yeah, a piece of wood.
[22:10.350 --> 22:11.370]  I was hoping for a little bit more than that.
[22:11.450 --> 22:11.990]  Yeah, how many...
[22:11.990 --> 22:13.490]  Describe how many things...
[22:13.490 --> 22:15.570]  A pallet, it's 80 centimeters by 120 centimeters.
[22:15.990 --> 22:17.390]  It's got a lot of stuff on it, okay?
[22:17.390 --> 22:19.630]  Okay, in addition, you're going to go metric and confuse everybody.
[22:19.950 --> 22:20.530]  Now, listen...
[22:20.530 --> 22:21.790]  I don't know how many inches it is.
[22:21.830 --> 22:23.590]  You want me to get a calculator divide?
[22:24.270 --> 22:26.490]  In America, you should use the American backward system.
[22:26.590 --> 22:27.010]  But it's...
[22:27.010 --> 22:28.330]  There are European pallets.
[22:28.910 --> 22:29.310]  All right.
[22:29.390 --> 22:30.250]  They are European pallets.
[22:30.310 --> 22:30.630]  That is true.
[22:30.710 --> 22:32.850]  But they're in America now, so they must conform to our standards.
[22:32.850 --> 22:38.610]  And we can just tell you that a single pallet has 800 bottles of this crazy German soda.
[22:39.530 --> 22:40.650]  So, five pallets.
[22:40.750 --> 22:41.990]  That's 4,000 bottles that we have.
[22:42.130 --> 22:43.930]  It's 32 inches by 48.
[22:44.330 --> 22:44.690]  Okay.
[22:44.850 --> 22:45.510]  Well, you know what?
[22:45.510 --> 22:46.530]  We're past the pallet state.
[22:46.610 --> 22:47.470]  Now we're talking about the bottles.
[22:48.150 --> 22:49.210]  So, what we have...
[22:49.210 --> 22:50.350]  We have a whole bunch of these things.
[22:50.410 --> 22:59.130]  In fact, we're sending pallets to various hackerspaces around the country because we're the only people that can figure out how to get this stuff into the country in the first place.
[22:59.130 --> 23:00.530]  And it is a big challenge, let me tell you.
[23:00.970 --> 23:03.750]  But what we're doing this weekend is something very special.
[23:04.010 --> 23:05.610]  It's Club Mat Day.
[23:05.870 --> 23:06.450]  Did I say that right?
[23:06.930 --> 23:07.250]  No.
[23:07.710 --> 23:08.590]  How should I have said that?
[23:08.710 --> 23:08.990]  Matta.
[23:09.370 --> 23:09.770]  Okay.
[23:09.870 --> 23:10.590]  Club Matta Day.
[23:11.050 --> 23:12.090]  Oh, that sounds like a day.
[23:12.630 --> 23:13.690]  It's Club Matta Day.
[23:13.870 --> 23:14.070]  Okay.
[23:14.270 --> 23:14.430]  Cool.
[23:14.450 --> 23:14.890]  I like that.
[23:15.010 --> 23:15.550]  Club Matta Day.
[23:16.030 --> 23:16.430]  Nice.
[23:16.590 --> 23:16.730]  Okay.
[23:16.790 --> 23:30.510]  So, what that means, basically, is if you're in the listening area for the most part, meaning if you're in New York City, Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Manhattan, or Long Island, Nassau or Suffolk, that's pretty much the area that we're looking for.
[23:30.510 --> 23:31.510]  We're limiting it to right now.
[23:32.470 --> 23:34.690]  And you want to get a case of the stuff.
[23:34.750 --> 23:37.570]  A case is 20 bottles, so you don't have to get 400 of the things.
[23:38.130 --> 23:43.910]  All you have to do is email us, and we will not only bring it to you, we'll bring it to you in the 2600 van.
[23:44.110 --> 23:44.430]  That's right.
[23:44.470 --> 23:53.390]  The 2600 van will make a trip to your house, or your apartment building, or your block, or wherever it is that you happen to be, and we'll deliver to you a case of Club Matta.
[23:54.330 --> 23:54.890]  I said it right now.
[23:55.370 --> 23:55.830]  Club Matta.
[23:55.930 --> 23:57.230]  You know, I'll study it.
[23:57.470 --> 24:02.570]  You have to go to Germany and learn German, and then come back, and you'll instantly know how to pronounce it.
[24:17.310 --> 24:18.110]  Club Matta.
[24:18.110 --> 24:21.230]  U-B hyphen M-A-T-E dot U-S.
[24:21.750 --> 24:21.950]  Okay.
[24:22.050 --> 24:24.490]  And if you get confused, of course, you can always email us at off-the-hook O-T-H.
[24:24.530 --> 24:29.430]  If you get rid of the part before the ad sign and just go to clubmatta.us, you'll see the website.
[24:29.670 --> 24:32.630]  And you'll also see more specific information as to cost and all that kind of thing.
[24:32.930 --> 24:38.550]  And our email address here is O-T-H at 2600.com in case any of this was confusing or went too fast.
[24:38.670 --> 24:38.810]  Mitch?
[24:39.870 --> 24:43.710]  Should we say why Club Matta is something that people might want?
[24:43.890 --> 24:44.110]  Yeah.
[24:44.190 --> 24:45.450]  Actually, why don't you describe that?
[24:45.610 --> 24:48.690]  Because I actually don't really like it that much, to be honest.
[24:48.870 --> 24:50.110]  Well, you do get used to it.
[24:50.230 --> 24:51.190]  That's their slogan.
[24:51.190 --> 24:56.750]  Their slogan is you'll get used to it, which tells me they know that the taste doesn't always appeal to you.
[24:56.830 --> 24:58.930]  But apparently, it's very addictive.
[24:59.290 --> 25:02.330]  It is really true that one does get used to it in general.
[25:02.690 --> 25:07.170]  I was given a bottle as soon as I arrived at my first chaos event.
[25:07.170 --> 25:15.430]  And it tasted sort of like this watered down, slightly sugary, slightly carbonated drink.
[25:15.710 --> 25:18.390]  And someone said, well, you do get used to it.
[25:18.450 --> 25:19.350]  And I was like, well, yeah.
[25:19.550 --> 25:23.270]  And then I put the bottle down, but I was thirsty, so I drank the whole thing.
[25:23.430 --> 25:25.830]  And later, I found myself picking up another bottle.
[25:26.170 --> 25:27.890]  So you had the energy to pick up another bottle.
[25:28.010 --> 25:28.330]  I did.
[25:28.330 --> 25:30.450]  And this stuff has plenty of caffeine.
[25:30.590 --> 25:37.170]  But unlike Red Bull and other kind of drinks that are energy drinks, I don't get totally wired.
[25:37.350 --> 25:38.270]  I just feel awake.
[25:38.630 --> 25:44.170]  And it's incredibly popular at hacker events all over Europe.
[25:44.410 --> 25:45.650]  It's scarily popular in Germany.
[25:45.830 --> 25:46.230]  It really is.
[25:46.410 --> 25:46.950]  It's really scary.
[25:47.190 --> 25:55.150]  And hackerspaces fund themselves up to 30% of their income from selling this stuff to their own members.
[25:55.330 --> 25:55.550]  Wow.
[25:56.490 --> 25:57.250]  Wow, that's something.
[25:57.390 --> 25:57.550]  Yeah.
[25:57.550 --> 26:03.990]  So I'm looking forward to bringing some home from here to Noisebridge so we can help.
[26:03.990 --> 26:05.050]  Can you get a pallet on a plane?
[26:05.390 --> 26:08.130]  I don't know if I can get a pallet on a plane, but I can certainly get one on a truck.
[26:08.330 --> 26:10.950]  You can't afford to get a pallet on a plane.
[26:11.190 --> 26:13.030]  The problem is it's really heavy stuff.
[26:13.190 --> 26:13.370]  Yeah.
[26:13.710 --> 26:20.690]  There are so many challenges involved in shipping something overseas on a freighter that we've learned about this in the last few...
[26:21.090 --> 26:23.450]  Well, since last year, we keep learning things.
[26:23.530 --> 26:23.710]  Eighteen.
[26:23.990 --> 26:28.590]  In fact, that great Clu Mate stuff is what kept me awake from the hours of 12 a.m.
[26:28.630 --> 26:29.470]  to about 6 a.m.
[26:29.490 --> 26:31.370]  when you needed me to sell it, if you remember.
[26:32.430 --> 26:33.950]  Overnight period at the last 12.
[26:34.030 --> 26:35.230]  We don't want this to sound like a commercial.
[26:35.390 --> 26:35.770]  We're just...
[26:35.770 --> 26:41.430]  This is a fun activity for people in New York City over the weekend if they want to be part of it.
[26:41.550 --> 26:45.290]  We're just doing this as an experiment to see if people like the stuff.
[26:45.430 --> 26:47.130]  Also, we like to get this into a store somewhere.
[26:47.250 --> 26:51.590]  I think that would be kind of cool to have one place in New York where people can go and not go through us.
[26:51.710 --> 26:52.490]  It'd be kind of cool.
[26:52.810 --> 26:54.650]  So, if you have any suggestions, email us.
[26:54.710 --> 26:55.310]  That's always fun.
[26:55.390 --> 27:02.590]  I remember back, there was another energy drink that I used to... that used to be kind of a geek energy drink, if you will.
[27:02.690 --> 27:04.010]  And I remember trying to hunt it down.
[27:04.090 --> 27:08.430]  And it was kind of a fun thing to find that one place that had it, that one grocery store somewhere or whatever.
[27:08.650 --> 27:08.890]  Uh-huh.
[27:09.250 --> 27:09.610]  So...
[27:09.610 --> 27:13.270]  Well, I never thought we'd be involved in something like this.
[27:13.390 --> 27:16.690]  But this goes to show, the hacker world leads you to strange and unusual places.
[27:17.910 --> 27:20.250]  Okay, Mitch, since you're here, actually, we've been getting some...
[27:20.270 --> 27:22.910]  in the mail about this, about the brain machines that we offered in winter.
[27:23.190 --> 27:25.230]  So, maybe you can update the folks as to what the status...
[27:25.230 --> 27:27.710]  We had this as our fundraiser, I think, in February.
[27:28.310 --> 27:30.930]  One week, we were giving away assembled brain machines.
[27:31.210 --> 27:32.170]  And I know there's been...
[27:32.170 --> 27:32.910]  Trip glasses.
[27:33.190 --> 27:33.550]  Trip glasses.
[27:34.830 --> 27:38.710]  And there's been a bit of a delay with getting them from where?
[27:38.810 --> 27:39.010]  China?
[27:39.170 --> 27:40.030]  It's on a slow boat or something?
[27:40.250 --> 27:40.870]  Right, yeah.
[27:40.950 --> 27:45.070]  Well, I have them manufactured in China at a place that I really like.
[27:45.070 --> 27:52.350]  And way back when we did that fundraiser, I tried to warn everyone that these are not yet made.
[27:52.490 --> 27:53.790]  So, please be patient.
[27:54.070 --> 27:58.050]  And in any manufacturing process, there are always some delays.
[27:58.090 --> 27:59.770]  And we had plenty of them.
[27:59.890 --> 28:03.370]  But they were manufactured in June.
[28:03.390 --> 28:08.150]  And they got put on a boat at the very end of June.
[28:08.150 --> 28:09.210]  And they're on their way over.
[28:09.210 --> 28:11.930]  They're somewhere between New York and China now.
[28:12.210 --> 28:14.550]  And definitely the slow boat from China scene.
[28:15.290 --> 28:15.570]  So, wait.
[28:15.630 --> 28:16.710]  Somewhere between New York and...
[28:16.710 --> 28:18.910]  You do realize there's a whole big country in the way.
[28:19.170 --> 28:20.810]  Is it going through the Panama Canal?
[28:21.010 --> 28:21.130]  Yeah.
[28:21.310 --> 28:21.790]  Oh, boy.
[28:21.950 --> 28:22.870]  Through the Panama Canal.
[28:23.810 --> 28:24.330]  So...
[28:24.330 --> 28:29.390]  But my fulfillment center, the distribution place where I use, is in Wall, New Jersey.
[28:29.670 --> 28:31.890]  So, that's the way they have to go.
[28:32.350 --> 28:39.990]  200 of them were flown out for the Maker Faire where they were first released in San Francisco at the end of May.
[28:40.590 --> 28:40.990]  Okay.
[28:41.230 --> 28:41.770]  Early 200.
[28:42.130 --> 28:43.410]  And they sold instantly.
[28:43.790 --> 28:46.810]  So, if that's any indication, people do like hallucinating.
[28:47.770 --> 28:48.090]  Okay.
[28:48.430 --> 28:50.570]  Boy, we're really pushing the boundaries of this show.
[28:50.670 --> 28:50.790]  Yes.
[28:50.930 --> 28:52.530]  But it's legal hallucinations.
[28:53.590 --> 28:54.850]  Nothing untoward going on there.
[28:54.850 --> 28:55.410]  Totally legal.
[28:55.510 --> 28:55.670]  Yes.
[28:56.310 --> 29:01.130]  So, if you were part of that fundraiser, they will be coming to you.
[29:01.330 --> 29:05.070]  If you want to email us just to check that you're on the list, we'll be happy to verify that.
[29:06.230 --> 29:09.070]  But let's assume that it'll be a little bit longer.
[29:09.370 --> 29:09.470]  Yeah.
[29:09.470 --> 29:11.770]  And that goes for the other premiums as well that we gave away.
[29:11.970 --> 29:13.390]  We're still processing names.
[29:13.390 --> 29:14.690]  It's just a lot of names to process.
[29:14.690 --> 29:16.390]  But we will get through it.
[29:17.430 --> 29:17.630]  Well, thanks.
[29:17.850 --> 29:18.190]  Yes.
[29:18.330 --> 29:23.590]  Thanks so much for your support and for keeping this place going because, well, it means a lot to a lot of people.
[29:24.410 --> 29:24.770]  Okay.
[29:24.770 --> 29:27.710]  We have some new stories to focus on.
[29:28.650 --> 29:34.590]  Interesting ruling out of Seattle that will most likely fuel debate about online privacy.
[29:34.750 --> 29:38.490]  A federal judge has held that IP addresses are not personal information.
[29:38.730 --> 29:43.890]  In order for personally identifiable information to be personally identifiable, it must identify a person.
[29:44.010 --> 29:44.970]  I'm going to say that again.
[29:45.310 --> 29:50.670]  In order for personally identifiable information to be personally identifiable, it must identify a person.
[29:50.830 --> 29:51.050]  Person.
[29:52.310 --> 29:53.630]  Why did you say that again?
[29:54.250 --> 29:54.570]  I don't know.
[29:55.130 --> 29:57.990]  So is the claim that an address is not personally identified?
[29:58.210 --> 29:58.930]  Hang on, it's not finished.
[29:59.110 --> 30:01.510]  But an IP address identifies a computer, said U.S.
[30:01.610 --> 30:04.350]  District Court Judge Richard Jones.
[30:04.350 --> 30:13.750]  He issued the ruling in the context of a class action lawsuit brought by consumers against Microsoft, stemming from an update that automatically installed new anti-piracy software.
[30:13.990 --> 30:21.850]  And in that case, which dates back to 2006, consumers alleged that Microsoft violated its user agreement by collecting IP addresses in the course of the updates.
[30:21.850 --> 30:27.590]  They argued that Microsoft's user agreement only allowed the company to collect information that does not personally identify users.
[30:27.990 --> 30:33.030]  Microsoft argued that IP addresses do not identify users because the addresses don't include people's names or addresses.
[30:33.530 --> 30:38.810]  The company also said it did not combine IP addresses with other information that could link them to individuals.
[30:39.250 --> 30:45.890]  Mark Rotenberg, Executive Director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, criticizes the Microsoft ruling as a silly decision.
[30:45.890 --> 30:51.130]  The judge didn't understand the significance of the IP address or the reason that it was collected.
[30:51.230 --> 30:51.470]  RedHack.
[30:51.630 --> 30:54.650]  You know, it's interesting because it always seems to...
[30:54.650 --> 30:57.470]  These kinds of things always seem to side with the corporate side.
[30:57.610 --> 31:04.330]  So if you're the RIAA and you're going after people for downloading stuff, you can say, well, their IP address identifies them so we can sue them.
[31:04.510 --> 31:04.670]  Right.
[31:04.690 --> 31:09.570]  But now if you're Microsoft and you're saying, oh, well, we're collecting IP addresses, but those don't identify people.
[31:09.570 --> 31:18.790]  Yeah, I see sort of a contradiction here from the people that are criticizing this ruling because they're saying that IP addresses, yes, in fact, they do identify a person.
[31:18.950 --> 31:24.050]  But I think these same people would say to the RIAA, an IP address does not identify a person.
[31:24.210 --> 31:25.770]  So you can't really have it both ways.
[31:25.970 --> 31:26.630]  That's why we should just go to lawyers.
[31:26.630 --> 31:29.210]  I don't think there's particularly a conflict in that position.
[31:29.830 --> 31:35.770]  I mean, an IP address identifies you as one of a few people that use that computer.
[31:36.070 --> 31:36.730]  So if you're...
[31:36.730 --> 31:38.790]  People are being prosecuted because of the IP address.
[31:38.790 --> 31:39.030]  Right.
[31:39.150 --> 31:48.950]  So if there's a question of criminal liability or even civil liability, you need, I think, a higher standard than that, than saying it's one of a few people who use this computer.
[31:49.310 --> 31:54.830]  But if you're collecting this data in aggregate or something, then you can start to identify and make connections.
[31:55.310 --> 31:55.870]  Dot Redis here.
[31:56.790 --> 32:02.650]  But generally, the owner of whatever machine, say a computer, could be held responsible.
[32:02.890 --> 32:07.890]  If something bad happens over it, you could always blame them for not taking better care of their machines.
[32:08.090 --> 32:13.470]  So in that way, an IP address could very well be, you know, have to do with the privacy of the owner.
[32:13.470 --> 32:14.010]  Right.
[32:14.250 --> 32:14.610]  Exactly.
[32:14.850 --> 32:22.390]  It comes down to, you know, at this moment, in the case of this lawsuit, Microsoft wants to say, this does not identify you so we can collect it.
[32:22.470 --> 32:26.210]  But then if they had a use for it, they'd be like, oh, well, this identifies you.
[32:26.210 --> 32:26.310]  Right.
[32:26.570 --> 32:27.450]  That's my point.
[32:28.970 --> 32:31.210]  Either it identifies you or it doesn't identify you.
[32:31.310 --> 32:31.430]  Right.
[32:31.530 --> 32:36.030]  Because they're not going to go after the computer saying the computer installed pirated software on itself.
[32:36.030 --> 32:37.570]  They're going to go after somebody using the computer.
[32:37.610 --> 32:38.010]  You never know.
[32:38.090 --> 32:41.650]  There are lawsuits filed against piles of money and other inanimate objects.
[32:41.670 --> 32:47.110]  That would be better if the computer had to go to court and defend itself and the person had nothing to do with it.
[32:47.110 --> 32:54.090]  Maybe IPs should just be, like, ruled as individuals themselves that aren't connected to human individuals.
[32:54.390 --> 32:59.770]  And then they just, you know, they have to be taken to court and examined and probably a bad idea.
[32:59.970 --> 33:06.990]  In a lot of Europe, there's moves to make internet connections get suspended automatically by law if they get abused too much.
[33:07.110 --> 33:07.350]  Mm-hmm.
[33:07.550 --> 33:09.490]  So we're heading in that direction.
[33:10.050 --> 33:10.550]  Interesting.
[33:10.650 --> 33:11.610]  Interesting case, though.
[33:12.130 --> 33:12.650]  Okay.
[33:12.830 --> 33:15.150]  And this also is rather interesting.
[33:15.150 --> 33:32.310]  What a person buys and where they buy it could have a devastating effect on a credit score, according to television station WESH, which basically did an investigation and discovered that credit companies look at where a cardholder is shopping and determine an interest rate from there.
[33:33.530 --> 33:34.010]  Yeah.
[33:34.210 --> 33:40.730]  So if you go to, say, the Salvation Army, for some reason, you could wind up paying a higher interest rate.
[33:40.850 --> 33:43.670]  I have, I think, a lot of trouble following the logic behind this.
[33:43.670 --> 33:49.270]  What exactly they're trying to gain by raising people's interest rates based on where they...
[33:49.270 --> 33:50.110]  Yeah, but...
[33:50.650 --> 33:51.530]  They're trying to gain money.
[33:51.650 --> 33:51.790]  Yeah.
[33:51.850 --> 33:56.830]  They assume that if they're spending money at thrift stores, then they must not be able to pay off their debt.
[33:56.890 --> 34:02.210]  And so if I put a higher interest rate, then I can get more money out of them later when they inevitably can't pay off their debt.
[34:02.210 --> 34:05.550]  Not to pay the debt at all because if they can't afford it, then that's...
[34:05.550 --> 34:05.890]  Yeah.
[34:06.070 --> 34:09.310]  Well, that's, I mean, you know, how do you think we get into financial crises because...
[34:09.310 --> 34:10.890]  They're not supposed to do this in the first place.
[34:11.030 --> 34:16.330]  They're not supposed to be looking at what you buy and using that as a reason to determine your rate.
[34:16.570 --> 34:17.750]  According to whom they're not.
[34:18.630 --> 34:19.390]  That's a good question.
[34:19.450 --> 34:19.970]  That's a good question.
[34:20.090 --> 34:23.170]  I guess we should read those little things where we wind up signing.
[34:23.170 --> 34:26.790]  Well, also the things that you wind up signing say that they have the right to change it at any time.
[34:26.970 --> 34:27.110]  Yeah.
[34:27.790 --> 34:31.070]  Without notice and, yeah, all kinds of fun things like that.
[34:31.170 --> 34:31.430]  Yeah, start right.
[34:31.430 --> 34:34.890]  Well, you are spending somebody else's money so that you have to pay back.
[34:34.890 --> 34:37.030]  They can stipulate whatever they want.
[34:37.290 --> 34:38.050]  Mm-hmm.
[34:38.830 --> 34:39.190]  Interesting.
[34:39.410 --> 34:39.550]  Yeah.
[34:39.870 --> 34:42.290]  Well, don't get me started on banks because I'd go on for a couple of hours.
[34:42.870 --> 34:44.110]  I'll tell that story some other time.
[34:44.410 --> 34:48.230]  You know, it's interesting though because these kinds of things arise because of technology, right?
[34:48.430 --> 34:49.970]  You know, if it were just...
[34:49.970 --> 34:51.170]  If credit cards were...
[34:51.590 --> 34:58.510]  Well, I guess you wouldn't have credit cards, but if it was some sort of loan system, they wouldn't be able to know where the money is going if it was a paper trail.
[34:58.590 --> 35:02.610]  But when you have all of these things where everything is electronic and you can analyze everything and look at...
[35:02.610 --> 35:02.750]  Right.
[35:02.850 --> 35:07.330]  You know, set rules and then you can make all these things automatic and nobody has to really interact with it.
[35:07.410 --> 35:09.870]  You just say, give me the most money that I can get.
[35:09.990 --> 35:11.610]  What rules can I follow to do that?
[35:11.850 --> 35:12.130]  Mm-hmm.
[35:12.230 --> 35:15.270]  So technology makes our lives easier, but sometimes it doesn't help.
[35:15.450 --> 35:16.970]  Bernie, I sense you have some thoughts on this.
[35:18.010 --> 35:18.550]  Well, yeah.
[35:21.170 --> 35:36.550]  As a matter of fact, that credit card companies, banks are, you know, peaking at the most intimate aspects of our spending habits and making sort of, doing psychological profiles on us to determine whether they think we're credit-worthy anymore.
[35:37.050 --> 35:43.610]  Like, if you went to a liquor store and bought a bunch of booze, you know, maybe they think you're going to drink it all and then be unreliable.
[35:43.710 --> 35:46.350]  Or maybe you were, you know, buying it for a wedding or something.
[35:46.390 --> 35:46.870]  Who knows?
[35:47.110 --> 35:55.690]  But the bottom line is, if you look at the fine print on the agreement you sign when you apply for a credit card, you might be surprised at what you're really agreeing to.
[35:55.690 --> 36:07.470]  It basically says, depending on the agreement, that they can use any information about your transactions in determining whether, you know, how to shape the policies for you.
[36:07.630 --> 36:08.890]  So, read these agreements.
[36:08.890 --> 36:12.070]  And if you don't like them, complain to the company.
[36:12.210 --> 36:18.110]  If enough people complain to the company, then they may change their practices.
[36:18.110 --> 36:18.730]  You never know.
[36:19.450 --> 36:22.250]  Well, I'd have to doubt that they would quickly.
[36:22.450 --> 36:26.470]  You'd have to have a whole lot of people complaining and you'd have to be pretty vocal in public.
[36:27.790 --> 36:30.410]  So, just one person complaining, I don't think it's going to do much.
[36:30.530 --> 36:35.150]  But if you have a way of reaching lots of other people and making it an issue, then you might have a chance.
[36:35.770 --> 36:36.150]  Absolutely.
[36:36.310 --> 36:37.050]  And that's the thing.
[36:37.210 --> 36:38.630]  Most people just sign these things.
[36:38.790 --> 36:40.030]  They don't read all the fine print.
[36:40.030 --> 37:00.310]  But if everybody really took their role as a consumer seriously and read the fine print and really looked at what their merchants were trying to do to them and expressed their concerns and objectives and put their money with companies whose policies they really agreed with,
[37:00.330 --> 37:06.030]  I think consumer policies would be a lot friendlier from banks and other creditors.
[37:06.030 --> 37:09.270]  So, just people, you know, it's the same with politics.
[37:09.510 --> 37:18.870]  We get the politics we deserve if we don't take our role in a democracy seriously and investigate who we're voting for or vote at all.
[37:19.250 --> 37:22.650]  Then you really can't take, you really don't have much of a right to complain.
[37:22.890 --> 37:26.030]  So, this is something people should take care of, you know, take an interest in.
[37:26.150 --> 37:34.590]  I think we should focus our complaints more to the federal regulators than the companies themselves because they'll only change their policies if there's a sphere of regulation.
[37:35.250 --> 37:41.290]  The Federal Trade Commission, in this case, it's the Federal Trade Commission if you have any concerns about this stuff.
[37:41.410 --> 37:47.570]  The FTC does take a fairly active role in voting for consumers now and then.
[37:47.850 --> 37:55.230]  So, if they get enough people complaining to the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, they will take action and take notice.
[37:55.450 --> 37:58.490]  So, you know, you really have to express your concerns, though.
[37:58.630 --> 38:01.510]  If you're just passive about this stuff, it's not going to work for you.
[38:02.190 --> 38:02.670]  All right.
[38:02.770 --> 38:05.090]  And, of course, things do change with technology.
[38:05.090 --> 38:05.990]  We see it every day.
[38:05.990 --> 38:07.310]  We talk about it every week.
[38:07.870 --> 38:13.750]  But this is happening, and it's kind of scary, in this little town that juts into San Francisco Bay.
[38:13.930 --> 38:15.170]  I'm not sure I'm going to pronounce it correctly.
[38:15.330 --> 38:17.350]  It's called Tiburon?
[38:17.630 --> 38:18.730]  T-I-B-U-R-O-N?
[38:19.070 --> 38:19.170]  Yeah.
[38:19.170 --> 38:19.790]  Oh, you know.
[38:19.850 --> 38:20.290]  You're from there.
[38:21.050 --> 38:21.950]  Do you hear about this, Mitch?
[38:21.950 --> 38:31.390]  They want to basically record the license plate number of every vehicle that crosses city limits, and that way they know if somebody does something bad there, who was there at that time.
[38:31.890 --> 38:33.590]  It's an electronic border gate.
[38:35.110 --> 38:39.310]  And some people are seeing it as an Orwellian big brother type of thing.
[38:39.710 --> 38:41.290]  They use character recognition software.
[38:41.290 --> 38:46.110]  They compare plates to databases of cars that have been stolen or linked to crimes.
[38:46.850 --> 38:53.890]  And basically they're saying, look, if someone burglarizes a home at 3am, they can see who entered the town and who left the town shortly afterwards.
[38:55.010 --> 38:59.410]  And some people are saying, you know, I don't see any harm in it because I have nothing to hide.
[38:59.510 --> 39:00.090]  What do you think?
[39:01.070 --> 39:12.370]  Well, and if your name is Buttle and they make a mistake and they're looking for Tuttle, these are some serious considerations with something like this.
[39:12.450 --> 39:19.470]  I just came back from being two weeks in London where everywhere you look, there's a security camera looking at you.
[39:19.510 --> 39:19.690]  Yes.
[39:20.010 --> 39:24.290]  The one saving grace over there is that no one's looking at the output from these cameras.
[39:24.710 --> 39:29.310]  But, you know, if the data is being collected, eventually it could be looked at.
[39:29.310 --> 39:40.370]  And even if you had your car stolen, according to people at hackerspaces who had this happen to them, you can't get them to look at this data.
[39:41.330 --> 39:44.130]  It's just the bureaucrats don't want to deal with it.
[39:44.230 --> 39:45.650]  So that's like a saving grace.
[39:45.870 --> 39:53.810]  When we have character recognition software looking at license plates, what are they going to do with this data and how are they going to correlate it?
[39:53.810 --> 40:01.110]  And if a software, a piece of software suddenly says you need to be looked at, what recourse do we have?
[40:01.310 --> 40:02.810]  You know, computers don't lie, of course.
[40:02.810 --> 40:02.910]  Right.
[40:02.910 --> 40:10.550]  Of course, you could always walk into the community and rob a house and just leave with a big sack over your shoulder and they wouldn't know who you were, I don't think.
[40:10.850 --> 40:21.310]  You know, we have to think of ways, not the robbing house part, but we have to think of ways to defeat the system because there is no law that says you have to enter with a vehicle with a license plate, this community.
[40:21.450 --> 40:22.590]  I assume there's other ways to get there.
[40:22.590 --> 40:24.410]  Well, I've ridden my bicycle through there quite a bit.
[40:24.530 --> 40:24.630]  Yeah.
[40:24.710 --> 40:26.010]  And you don't have to have a license to ride a bicycle.
[40:26.190 --> 40:26.670]  So there you go.
[40:27.270 --> 40:27.470]  Got it.
[40:27.890 --> 40:31.670]  Something I could see happening is people covering up their license plate, driving over and then taking the license plate off the other side.
[40:31.670 --> 40:32.410]  And that's probably illegal.
[40:32.650 --> 40:34.130]  That's probably illegal right there to do that.
[40:34.270 --> 40:34.450]  Of course it is.
[40:34.510 --> 40:35.530]  Or putting a different license.
[40:35.830 --> 40:41.750]  Or what happens if somebody commits a crime, takes a car, and then drives out and then they start investigating the person.
[40:41.910 --> 40:43.390]  Oh, if they steal a car when they're there.
[40:43.530 --> 40:44.290]  They say they have more than one car.
[40:44.370 --> 40:44.890]  They're on vacation.
[40:44.990 --> 40:45.910]  Like, where is this person?
[40:45.950 --> 40:46.230]  Yeah.
[40:46.230 --> 40:50.630]  So if you go in there and steal a car, all they can do is basically say, yeah, that car was stolen.
[40:51.490 --> 40:52.450]  And it left.
[40:53.350 --> 40:53.670]  Matt?
[40:53.730 --> 40:55.370]  You could also take a taxi.
[40:56.410 --> 40:57.390]  You're right, yes.
[40:57.550 --> 40:59.610]  But then the taxi probably has a camera inside now.
[40:59.750 --> 40:59.950]  True.
[41:00.030 --> 41:01.230]  And they'll tell you all kinds of things.
[41:01.390 --> 41:05.310]  It suggests public transit, but they don't have that at 3am in the Bay Area, so...
[41:05.310 --> 41:05.670]  Yeah.
[41:06.070 --> 41:08.930]  Hey, Matt, I almost forgot about you because you're from Free Software Foundation.
[41:09.110 --> 41:09.350]  That's right.
[41:09.410 --> 41:11.650]  And tell us something about what you guys have been up to lately.
[41:11.650 --> 41:12.650]  I know you gave a talk today.
[41:13.230 --> 41:17.630]  I gave a talk yesterday about something else I'm working on, a music site called Libra FM.
[41:17.910 --> 41:20.910]  But right now we have our first batch of interns.
[41:21.250 --> 41:24.370]  We haven't done interns properly before, so it's been kind of cool.
[41:24.430 --> 41:29.310]  We have Sarah and Max right now helping us out with a lot of our campaigns work.
[41:29.510 --> 41:33.770]  And if you want to apply, you can apply right now for the next batch of interns, which...
[41:34.530 --> 41:35.730]  What's the advantage of being an intern?
[41:35.890 --> 41:42.510]  Well, you get to come to Boston and hang out with us at the FSF and you get to work with the staff and we treat you like anybody else working there.
[41:42.710 --> 41:49.870]  So you get to work on all the cool things we get to work on, protecting software freedom and fighting against DRM and all those kind of fun things.
[41:50.010 --> 41:55.030]  And you get to be a part of the free software community, which people...
[41:55.030 --> 41:59.770]  Maybe it's not the easiest thing to get into at the moment, but you can become a part of the FSF.
[41:59.890 --> 42:00.650]  And how can they do that again?
[42:00.930 --> 42:02.130]  Just go to FSF.org.
[42:02.430 --> 42:03.210]  FSF.org.
[42:03.330 --> 42:03.490]  Yeah.
[42:03.730 --> 42:04.070]  Okay, great.
[42:04.090 --> 42:09.090]  Will Richard Stallman personally induct the interns into the church of whatever it is?
[42:09.090 --> 42:10.170]  The Church of Emacs.
[42:10.310 --> 42:11.290]  I can't guarantee that.
[42:11.530 --> 42:11.850]  Sorry.
[42:12.590 --> 42:12.930]  All right.
[42:13.070 --> 42:15.370]  Well, are you guys going to have a presence at all at HR?
[42:16.090 --> 42:16.770]  Probably not.
[42:17.310 --> 42:22.510]  Over in Europe, there is Free Software Foundation Europe, which tends to handle more of the European side of things.
[42:22.650 --> 42:23.350]  So hopefully they'll be there.
[42:23.530 --> 42:23.910]  Okay.
[42:24.170 --> 42:27.850]  But yeah, we're probably going to be back at home next year, hopefully.
[42:28.250 --> 42:28.650]  So...
[42:28.650 --> 42:29.470]  Yes, I hope so too.
[42:29.650 --> 42:35.550]  And if you had to summarize Free Software Foundation in a paragraph or so, and you do, tell us.
[42:35.910 --> 42:36.150]  Okay.
[42:36.230 --> 42:49.290]  So the Free Software Foundation is essentially a group set up to protect users with computers, so to ensure that they have freedom over the software they run, to make sure that the software you use in your computer doesn't spy on you and doesn't do things that you don't want it to do.
[42:49.450 --> 42:49.710]  Uh-huh.
[42:49.950 --> 42:53.330]  And since 1985, we've been working on that now, and...
[42:53.330 --> 42:54.850]  1985 is when it all started.
[42:55.030 --> 42:55.150]  Yeah.
[42:55.390 --> 43:00.690]  We have an operating system called GNU slash Linux, 35 million users.
[43:01.330 --> 43:04.070]  So yeah, it's a good time to be in Free Software right now.
[43:04.190 --> 43:04.330]  Okay.
[43:04.410 --> 43:05.250]  FSF.org.
[43:05.370 --> 43:05.510]  Yeah.
[43:05.850 --> 43:06.730]  Great work you guys do.
[43:07.970 --> 43:08.410]  Well...
[43:08.410 --> 43:08.990]  Excuse me.
[43:09.050 --> 43:13.270]  There have been some reports on the Bush wiretap program.
[43:13.630 --> 43:15.310]  We've been reading about this over the last week or so.
[43:15.950 --> 43:22.690]  Federal agents found much of the information produced by the Bush administration's top-secret warrantless surveillance program were...
[43:23.250 --> 43:27.670]  It was vague, difficult to use, and almost completely useless.
[43:27.670 --> 43:34.810]  Then-President George Bush and other top administration officials have said the program was a critical tool in preventing terrorist attacks.
[43:34.870 --> 43:44.850]  However, a report on Friday by the inspectors general of the CIA, the Justice Department, the Pentagon, and other agencies found that the...
[43:46.330 --> 43:47.010]  Let's see.
[43:47.030 --> 43:47.690]  I lost my play.
[43:47.790 --> 43:47.930]  Oh, there.
[43:47.970 --> 43:52.870]  It's found that some FBI and CIA agents were frustrated by the secrecy surrounding the program.
[43:52.870 --> 44:00.050]  Former CIA chiefs Michael Hayden and Porter Goss told investigators the wiretaps filled a gap in U.S.
[44:00.210 --> 44:00.610]  intelligence.
[44:00.890 --> 44:13.450]  One senior official quoted in the report called the wiretaps dubbed the president's surveillance program by the report a key resource, while the FBI considered it one tool of many in their efforts to head off terrorist plots, according to that report.
[44:13.450 --> 44:23.850]  Even though most PSP leads were determined not to have any connection to terrorism, many of the FBI witnesses believed the mere possibility of the leads producing useful information made investigating the leads worthwhile.
[44:24.130 --> 44:38.010]  But Friday's report found that the intelligence gathered was only a small part of counterterrorism work, and most intelligence officials interviewed for the report had trouble citing specific instances where PSP reporting had directly contributed to counterterrorism successes.
[44:38.010 --> 44:48.130]  Now, this is one of a number of stories having to do with systems not really working out as well as we were told they were going to be working out.
[44:50.190 --> 45:00.350]  Dick Cheney, for one thing, was directly linked to the concealment of the secret counterterrorism program from the Central Intelligence Agency.
[45:00.730 --> 45:07.250]  Direct orders from Vice President Dick Cheney to the CIA to not reveal this information.
[45:07.250 --> 45:08.470]  The assassination program?
[45:08.470 --> 45:08.690]  I'm sorry.
[45:08.990 --> 45:09.470]  Sorry, what?
[45:09.470 --> 45:11.350]  You're talking about the assassination program now?
[45:12.170 --> 45:12.550]  This...
[45:12.550 --> 45:15.390]  Well, they're referring to it as a secret counterterrorism program.
[45:15.470 --> 45:16.350]  So I guess...
[45:16.350 --> 45:17.910]  Did they officially name it then?
[45:18.070 --> 45:18.410]  For a little while they...
[45:18.410 --> 45:19.070]  For a little while they...
[45:19.070 --> 45:19.630]  They...
[45:19.630 --> 45:23.470]  It wasn't known to the public what the secret program was, only that it was a secret.
[45:23.630 --> 45:25.610]  Then it turned out to be an assassination program.
[45:25.730 --> 45:31.650]  Well, Leon Panetta ended the program, and he first learned of its existence from subordinates on June 23rd.
[45:31.650 --> 45:42.170]  Now, how is it the head of the CIA doesn't know about programs that are taking place inside the CIA until six months after the Obama administration comes into power?
[45:42.250 --> 45:42.950]  How is that possible?
[45:43.550 --> 45:45.430]  They have a huge culture of secrecy.
[45:45.590 --> 45:47.390]  And he found out from subordinates.
[45:48.010 --> 45:48.410]  Yeah.
[45:49.270 --> 45:50.810]  He's not gonna find out from his boss.
[45:50.910 --> 45:51.530]  He is the boss.
[45:52.090 --> 45:59.090]  The question of how completely the CIA informed Congress about sensitive programs has been hotly disputed by Democrats and Republicans since May.
[45:59.450 --> 46:05.710]  That was when Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the agency of failing to reveal in 2002 that it was waterboarding a terrorism suspect.
[46:05.830 --> 46:15.410]  And you should have heard the right-wing radio response to that, calling her, you know, guilty of treason for even suggesting that the CIA shouldn't be waterboarding people and crazy things like that.
[46:15.490 --> 46:19.650]  They also say that the best way for us to get more security is for there to be another terrorist attack.
[46:19.650 --> 46:21.730]  So I wouldn't really listen to the right-wing pundits.
[46:21.950 --> 46:22.030]  Yeah.
[46:22.070 --> 46:22.810]  What was that quote?
[46:22.950 --> 46:23.130]  Hang on.
[46:23.170 --> 46:24.050]  There's a quote somewhere.
[46:24.630 --> 46:26.990]  I believe Bernie was in a Philadelphia newspaper.
[46:27.810 --> 46:27.990]  Yeah.
[46:28.130 --> 46:33.830]  Actually, there was a book written about all this 9-11 stuff.
[46:34.050 --> 46:41.370]  And someone in that book quoted, I think his name is Richard Addington.
[46:41.550 --> 46:42.790]  He was basically...
[46:42.790 --> 46:42.950]  Yeah.
[46:43.030 --> 46:44.070]  February 2004.
[46:44.910 --> 46:45.050]  Right.
[46:45.050 --> 47:03.790]  Well, Addington, who worked at the highest levels of the White House with Dick Cheney and the president as a liaison between this presidential terrorist surveillance program and the vice president and the president, was quoted as saying...
[47:03.790 --> 47:04.550]  I'm paraphrasing it.
[47:04.570 --> 47:05.350]  You're looking at it.
[47:05.450 --> 47:05.710]  I'm not.
[47:05.950 --> 47:11.910]  He basically said, we're one bomb away from getting rid of this annoying FISA court.
[47:11.910 --> 47:13.030]  Well, you almost got it right.
[47:13.190 --> 47:16.210]  They're getting rid of that obnoxious, and in brackets, FISA court.
[47:16.350 --> 47:16.550]  But yeah.
[47:16.670 --> 47:17.670]  Obnoxious FISA court.
[47:17.750 --> 47:17.930]  Yeah.
[47:17.930 --> 47:20.130]  One bomb away from getting rid...
[47:20.130 --> 47:21.330]  I mean, wow.
[47:21.390 --> 47:24.230]  Do these people think before they open their mouths how that could be interpreted?
[47:25.170 --> 47:25.810]  Well, I've...
[47:25.810 --> 47:45.190]  That kind of confirms my suspicion that this vast surveillance program that went into effect after 9-11 really was not as much about terrorism as it is about what they had wanted to do for a long time, which is basically to, you know, monitor everything they possibly can,
[47:45.190 --> 47:52.230]  all of our telephone calls and emails and other electronic communications, cellular text messages, you name it.
[47:53.250 --> 47:55.010]  So, but just to have someone...
[47:55.010 --> 48:02.090]  Some of the highest levels of the White House saying, you know, we're just one bomb away from getting rid of this obnoxious FISA court.
[48:02.170 --> 48:17.090]  The FISA court was specifically put in place by Congress to protect American citizens from government abusive surveillance, you know, without probable cause, without warrants.
[48:17.830 --> 48:22.890]  And yet, here we have the White House saying, we're just one bomb away from getting rid of this court.
[48:23.210 --> 48:24.450]  That scares me.
[48:24.770 --> 48:30.230]  So, I don't think it's anything new, but it just lays bare what the mindset of these people is.
[48:30.550 --> 48:35.430]  It's important to remind our listeners also that the FISA court almost never says no.
[48:35.430 --> 48:41.230]  I mean, this thing that they claim is the obstacle to them getting what they want is basically a rubber stamp.
[48:41.310 --> 48:47.030]  Yeah, but having somebody standing there with a rubber stamp apparently is one person too many in the way of getting what they want anyway.
[48:47.030 --> 48:47.770]  It's really amazing.
[48:48.130 --> 48:56.870]  And in addition to all this, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano has named a bipartisan task force to consider changes to the nation's color-coded terror warning system.
[48:57.250 --> 48:59.810]  Yeah, so apparently that's not working out either.
[49:00.410 --> 49:03.270]  Can we get a vague ad shift system to replace it?
[49:03.270 --> 49:10.310]  Well, maybe vague ad shift would be nice, but the threat rating is now at orange or high risk for the aviation industry, yellow, or elevated risk for the rest of the country.
[49:10.570 --> 49:16.130]  It's been criticized inside and outside the government as vague since its creation after the 2001 terrorist attacks.
[49:17.830 --> 49:19.230]  The whole thing is madness.
[49:19.230 --> 49:20.490]  Hasn't it always been orange?
[49:20.730 --> 49:21.750]  It's always been orange.
[49:21.790 --> 49:25.590]  No, you see they say that, but how could it always be orange when it didn't exist before a certain time?
[49:26.030 --> 49:28.630]  They say since the September 11th, 2001.
[49:29.050 --> 49:29.090]  No.
[49:29.310 --> 49:31.070]  Since they created it, it's been orange.
[49:31.250 --> 49:33.030]  I think, well, wasn't it yellow at some point?
[49:33.030 --> 49:34.470]  I've never heard it be anything but orange.
[49:34.470 --> 49:35.150]  It's always been orange.
[49:35.670 --> 49:36.470]  All of the...
[49:36.470 --> 49:37.490]  I mean, I'm sure all of...
[49:37.490 --> 49:40.850]  If they change the color, they'd have to change all of the printouts in all of the airports.
[49:41.070 --> 49:41.550]  That would be terrible.
[49:41.710 --> 49:42.050]  You're right.
[49:42.690 --> 49:48.030]  What exactly is the purpose of a system that always stays at the same color if it's supposed to let you know if the threats are going up and down?
[49:48.050 --> 49:49.310]  Well, maybe we live in a stable society.
[49:49.410 --> 49:49.990]  Have you thought about that?
[49:49.990 --> 49:54.170]  So that you know that you must be in fear because there is a threat.
[49:54.470 --> 49:55.210]  It's not...
[49:55.210 --> 49:57.970]  Otherwise, it would be green and you would have no reason to fear.
[49:58.090 --> 50:02.210]  But because there is a different level and we are at that level, you must be afraid.
[50:02.470 --> 50:03.750]  Remember to be afraid.
[50:03.750 --> 50:04.210]  All right.
[50:04.290 --> 50:05.370]  All right.
[50:05.710 --> 50:06.190]  All right.
[50:06.350 --> 50:08.470]  So, basically, quick poll.
[50:08.690 --> 50:13.750]  Are we moving into the realm of sanity or are we just going to see the same thing with different words?
[50:13.990 --> 50:14.350]  What's sanity?
[50:14.650 --> 50:15.390]  You think sanity?
[50:15.470 --> 50:15.770]  More sanity?
[50:15.890 --> 50:16.470]  What is sanity?
[50:16.570 --> 50:17.650]  Oh, never mind that.
[50:17.670 --> 50:18.050]  We don't have time.
[50:18.090 --> 50:20.850]  I think that I'd like to see what they do.
[50:21.150 --> 50:21.430]  Uh-huh.
[50:21.830 --> 50:22.010]  Yeah.
[50:22.130 --> 50:23.310]  I'd like to see what they do, too.
[50:23.410 --> 50:24.330]  We had to keep the pressure up.
[50:24.350 --> 50:31.310]  I'd also like to see if the people responsible for what happened before actually have to pay some kind of penalty for the things they did.
[50:31.450 --> 50:31.950]  I doubt that.
[50:32.030 --> 50:32.730]  That would be nice.
[50:32.730 --> 50:34.030]  I think that's up to us.
[50:34.110 --> 50:41.610]  I think that's up to us to exert pressure on elected officials to make sure that they don't, you know, protect their predecessors.
[50:41.930 --> 50:42.730]  It would be nice.
[50:42.890 --> 50:43.530]  I'm trying.
[50:43.790 --> 50:44.550]  It's not working.
[50:44.750 --> 50:45.790]  Well, you got to try harder then.
[50:45.970 --> 50:46.330]  Obviously.
[50:46.570 --> 50:47.850]  Mike, it's all your fault if you don't try harder.
[50:47.990 --> 50:48.110]  It's all your fault.
[50:48.290 --> 50:48.450]  Yeah.
[50:48.870 --> 50:49.130]  All right.
[50:49.230 --> 50:51.310]  We're going to take some phone calls in the few minutes we have left.
[50:51.410 --> 50:53.870]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[50:53.970 --> 50:58.390]  And yes, tonight, folks, is the last night that we'll be playing a telephone-related song.
[50:58.530 --> 51:00.210]  We've done it for 51 weeks before tonight.
[51:00.330 --> 51:01.430]  Tonight is the 52nd week.
[51:01.430 --> 51:05.510]  We will have played an entire year's worth of telephone-related songs as our outro.
[51:06.230 --> 51:09.190]  So tonight is the last time we're doing this.
[51:09.250 --> 51:12.170]  But if it's been 52, have we been on for 52 consecutive weeks?
[51:12.170 --> 51:12.910]  No, it's not consecutive.
[51:13.190 --> 51:13.950]  I counted.
[51:14.130 --> 51:14.970]  I mentioned this last week.
[51:15.030 --> 51:18.130]  I counted the number of times we played phone-related songs.
[51:18.330 --> 51:19.990]  And as of last week, it was 51.
[51:20.270 --> 51:21.270]  So it's more than a year.
[51:21.610 --> 51:21.990]  Well, yeah.
[51:22.390 --> 51:26.850]  Physically, we've been on more because we did a show where we didn't play a song because it was a convention-related show.
[51:26.930 --> 51:28.170]  Then we were preempted one time.
[51:28.170 --> 51:32.830]  And I think we had Reverend Billy on and we played one of his songs instead at one show.
[51:33.030 --> 51:33.630]  So, yeah.
[51:33.730 --> 51:36.430]  So we had to, I think, add three weeks or something like that.
[51:36.430 --> 51:37.330]  But yeah, it happens.
[51:38.250 --> 51:39.430]  212-209-2900.
[51:40.210 --> 51:41.450]  Let's see if there are any calls out there.
[51:41.570 --> 51:41.830]  Good evening.
[51:42.010 --> 51:42.610]  You're on off the hook.
[51:43.750 --> 51:44.490]  Speak up, please.
[51:45.750 --> 51:46.030]  Hello.
[51:46.270 --> 51:47.570]  This is Bobson from Bulgaria.
[51:47.870 --> 51:48.290]  Oh, hey.
[51:48.390 --> 51:50.590]  You're the Bulgarian caller that calls off the wall sometimes.
[51:51.910 --> 51:52.310]  Yep.
[51:52.490 --> 51:55.770]  And I sent an email to off the wall last night about...
[51:55.770 --> 51:56.430]  I saw that.
[51:56.430 --> 51:59.350]  You were telling us where to get good pizza in Madison, Wisconsin somehow.
[51:59.910 --> 52:01.610]  I don't know how Bulgarians know this.
[52:02.690 --> 52:06.090]  Well, I lived in Madison for some years back in the day.
[52:06.090 --> 52:06.830]  Well, good for you.
[52:07.450 --> 52:09.510]  What's on your mind as far as what we're talking about tonight?
[52:10.710 --> 52:14.450]  Well, horror is on my mind not being able to make it this year.
[52:14.590 --> 52:15.410]  You can't make it to horror?
[52:15.530 --> 52:17.570]  Can't you just hop on a train and be there immediately?
[52:18.490 --> 52:21.710]  Well, it's budgetary problems and such.
[52:21.930 --> 52:22.270]  Uh-huh.
[52:22.770 --> 52:23.810]  I'm sorry to hear that.
[52:24.330 --> 52:28.110]  And I don't think trains do this kind of...
[52:28.110 --> 52:29.050]  I mean...
[52:29.050 --> 52:29.810]  Well, they do go there.
[52:29.930 --> 52:32.710]  You can get on a train in Bulgaria and wind up in Holland eventually.
[52:33.050 --> 52:35.110]  You might have to switch a few trains, but you can do that.
[52:36.150 --> 52:39.810]  It's not as easy as it would be to get on a train in Germany, say.
[52:39.970 --> 52:40.130]  True.
[52:40.350 --> 52:40.710]  Very true.
[52:40.870 --> 52:44.550]  But it's a hell of a lot easier than getting on a train here and trying to make it to Chicago or something.
[52:45.830 --> 52:47.130]  Sotomayor to you, by the way.
[52:47.210 --> 52:47.790]  Yeah, Sotomayor.
[52:49.490 --> 52:50.390]  Thanks for your call.
[52:50.510 --> 52:51.410]  Let's see who else is out there.
[52:52.250 --> 52:52.930]  And good evening.
[52:53.190 --> 52:53.810]  You're on Off The Hook.
[52:55.170 --> 52:55.550]  Hi.
[52:55.670 --> 53:01.230]  I wanted to make a call in regards to that story you had about taking pictures of the license plates.
[53:01.430 --> 53:01.830]  Yes, go ahead.
[53:01.830 --> 53:02.390]  You're on the air now.
[53:03.090 --> 53:03.350]  Okay.
[53:03.510 --> 53:11.130]  Well, there was actually an incident that happened, I believe it was in New Jersey, where, I think it was at NGIT, one student didn't like the other.
[53:11.750 --> 53:18.490]  So, printed out a Photoshop of the other student's license plate, taped it over his license plate, and then ran in EasyPass.
[53:18.790 --> 53:19.030]  Oh.
[53:19.210 --> 53:20.050]  Is that easy?
[53:20.210 --> 53:21.130]  Is it really that simple?
[53:21.890 --> 53:26.670]  Oh, I've done quite a few things with Photoshop when I lost certain personal documents of mine.
[53:26.790 --> 53:28.050]  I mean, you could do anything with Photoshop.
[53:28.790 --> 53:29.150]  Wow.
[53:29.350 --> 53:30.110]  How about that?
[53:30.710 --> 53:30.970]  Mm-hmm.
[53:31.450 --> 53:31.810]  Okay.
[53:31.950 --> 53:32.690]  Well, that's...
[53:33.070 --> 53:34.010]  I didn't know it was that easy.
[53:34.110 --> 53:35.770]  I thought it took a little bit more of a challenge.
[53:35.890 --> 53:36.110]  Yeah.
[53:36.350 --> 53:37.230]  It was actually...
[53:37.230 --> 53:38.610]  It was in the news not too long ago.
[53:38.710 --> 53:40.350]  But, I mean, it's a local story, so it didn't get big.
[53:40.350 --> 53:40.630]  Yeah.
[53:41.410 --> 53:41.670]  Mm-hmm.
[53:41.670 --> 53:41.750]  Okay.
[53:41.890 --> 53:48.150]  Well, I guess you'll maybe get a whole influx of people with the same license plate going into that small town in California.
[53:48.390 --> 53:48.870]  We'll see.
[53:48.950 --> 53:49.330]  Oh, yeah.
[53:49.910 --> 53:50.250]  All right.
[53:50.290 --> 53:50.530]  Thanks.
[53:50.530 --> 53:51.050]  Thanks for your call.
[53:51.270 --> 53:51.490]  Go ahead.
[53:51.870 --> 53:52.190]  Yeah.
[53:53.810 --> 53:57.230]  We should all just then drive over the border of that town simultaneously.
[53:57.610 --> 53:57.830]  Uh-huh.
[53:57.950 --> 53:58.650]  I think we're going nuts.
[53:58.650 --> 53:59.550]  From like all different directions.
[54:00.110 --> 54:00.410]  Yeah.
[54:00.710 --> 54:03.150]  That would definitely throw a few computers through a loop.
[54:03.570 --> 54:03.910]  All right.
[54:03.950 --> 54:04.630]  Let's take another phone call.
[54:04.730 --> 54:05.030]  Good evening.
[54:05.150 --> 54:05.730]  You're on off the hook.
[54:06.830 --> 54:07.710]  Speak up, please.
[54:08.150 --> 54:08.430]  Yeah.
[54:08.790 --> 54:09.470]  Am I on the air?
[54:09.630 --> 54:09.730]  Yeah.
[54:09.910 --> 54:10.130]  Go ahead.
[54:10.230 --> 54:10.550]  You're on the air.
[54:10.650 --> 54:10.750]  Yes.
[54:10.930 --> 54:11.430]  Hey, how you doing?
[54:12.610 --> 54:13.090]  Great show.
[54:13.270 --> 54:13.410]  Thank you.
[54:13.570 --> 54:15.230]  What do you think the security is all about?
[54:16.130 --> 54:20.270]  My opinion, and I'll let you answer what you think of it.
[54:21.090 --> 54:23.850]  One is they're trying to expand their empire.
[54:24.090 --> 54:24.650]  I'm sorry.
[54:24.670 --> 54:25.090]  Say that again?
[54:25.490 --> 54:29.130]  I think they're trying to expand their empire with all these wars.
[54:29.150 --> 54:31.550]  I don't think it has anything to do with 9-11.
[54:31.830 --> 54:33.290]  I mean, 9-11 is a lot of questions.
[54:33.290 --> 54:36.690]  You had a building collapse, which wasn't hit by a plane.
[54:36.830 --> 54:36.970]  All right.
[54:37.010 --> 54:37.690]  So I'll get into that.
[54:37.790 --> 54:38.930]  We'll be on for another six hours.
[54:39.130 --> 54:39.550]  But yeah.
[54:39.690 --> 54:39.790]  Okay.
[54:40.910 --> 54:41.130]  Yeah.
[54:41.730 --> 54:45.930]  Basically, I'm talking about why are they so paranoid?
[54:46.570 --> 54:46.790]  You know?
[54:47.150 --> 54:48.610]  Where does the security come from?
[54:48.610 --> 54:53.010]  And my opinion is like either, I think partially that, they're expanding their empire.
[54:53.410 --> 55:00.490]  And also the fact that I think there was a large influence of immigrants, and they're trying to integrate them.
[55:00.630 --> 55:07.110]  And I think it's a way of just scaring the hell out of everybody and like, you know, showing who's the boss.
[55:07.510 --> 55:07.870]  Okay.
[55:08.010 --> 55:09.430]  Well, Redhack, I think you have an opinion on this.
[55:09.530 --> 55:09.710]  Go ahead.
[55:09.750 --> 55:12.750]  Actually, I was kind of going to clarify, I think, what he was asking.
[55:12.870 --> 55:14.290]  And I almost had the same thought myself.
[55:14.290 --> 55:22.750]  What purpose does it serve for them to expand these kinds of laws and get rid of these, you know, the FISA court and all that?
[55:23.210 --> 55:26.690]  What benefit does it have to these individual people who are kind of pushing this?
[55:26.870 --> 55:28.330]  And I don't have an answer to that.
[55:28.570 --> 55:31.130]  I don't know if anyone else's opinion, but I think that was the question.
[55:31.290 --> 55:32.190]  It makes their job easier.
[55:32.290 --> 55:37.090]  And they know that now that people are scared, or they were scared after 9-11, they try to take the opportunity.
[55:37.290 --> 55:53.950]  I mean, it's a similar reason why North Korea is going mad firing missiles and saying all kinds of really hurtful things to the United States, to basically get the people fired up, to have them be afraid, to basically get more control over them, especially in a transitional period.
[55:54.390 --> 55:55.690]  But who has the control?
[55:55.890 --> 55:56.810]  I mean, whose control?
[55:57.010 --> 55:58.390]  Whoever is making the people afraid.
[55:58.990 --> 56:00.370]  I mean, that's what it's all about.
[56:00.470 --> 56:01.730]  You have a population in fear.
[56:01.810 --> 56:03.130]  You can pretty much do whatever you want with them.
[56:03.770 --> 56:04.950]  All right, folks, we're pretty much out of time.
[56:05.310 --> 56:06.450]  Computer people are here.
[56:07.030 --> 56:09.610]  So I want to thank everybody for calling in.
[56:09.610 --> 56:15.230]  I invite you to write to us, OTH at 2600.com, if you have any opinions or stories or things like that.
[56:15.330 --> 56:16.710]  Hope to see you on Club Mate Day.
[56:17.510 --> 56:18.690]  I said it wrong again, didn't I?
[56:19.350 --> 56:20.210]  Club Mate Day.
[56:20.370 --> 56:20.910]  Club Mate Day?
[56:21.010 --> 56:21.610]  Did I say it right?
[56:21.870 --> 56:22.250]  I don't know.
[56:22.490 --> 56:23.050]  All right, good enough.
[56:23.630 --> 56:28.210]  And that email address was, again, contact at clubmate.us.
[56:28.350 --> 56:29.110]  Yeah, there's a hyphen.
[56:29.410 --> 56:35.150]  Yeah, contact at club-mate.us or OTH at 2600.com.
[56:35.150 --> 56:38.630]  All right, and now it's time for our very last phone-related song.
[56:38.630 --> 56:42.130]  It's been a year, 52 weeks of telephone-related material.
[56:42.590 --> 56:44.870]  We'll see you again next week with something new.
[56:44.990 --> 56:45.170]  Good night.
[56:49.120 --> 56:52.260]  I put a nickel in the telephone.
[56:52.460 --> 56:54.300]  Tell my baby's number.
[56:54.620 --> 56:57.860]  Got a busy line.
[56:58.620 --> 57:01.820]  Each time I tried, I got a busy tone.
[57:01.820 --> 57:03.900]  Not my baby's number.
[57:04.160 --> 57:07.520]  Just a busy line.
[57:08.440 --> 57:11.000]  Called his uncle in Jamaica.
[57:11.400 --> 57:13.440]  Left a message with a baker.
[57:13.800 --> 57:16.880]  Even checked the number in the telephone booth.
[57:18.280 --> 57:20.660]  Got so awfully, awfully worried.
[57:20.980 --> 57:23.120]  To my baby's house I hurried.
[57:23.600 --> 57:26.460]  When I looked inside, the phone was off the hook.
[57:26.460 --> 57:30.560]  And as I walked up to my baby then.
[57:30.800 --> 57:32.600]  I got my baby's number.
[57:32.800 --> 57:36.360]  He was busy in the parlor doing fine.
[57:37.300 --> 57:39.740]  Busy kissing someone else.
[57:40.240 --> 57:42.340]  While I was keeping busy.
[57:42.660 --> 57:43.540]  Getting a...
[57:44.640 --> 57:46.120]  Busy line.
[58:13.890 --> 58:14.610]  Busy.
[58:14.610 --> 58:14.790]  Busy.
[58:14.890 --> 58:15.050]  Busy.
[58:20.110 --> 58:20.830]  Busy.
[58:20.830 --> 58:20.950]  Busy.
[58:20.950 --> 58:21.050]  Busy.
[58:23.730 --> 58:24.450]  Busy.
[58:24.450 --> 58:24.490]  Busy.
[58:24.490 --> 58:24.890]  Busy.
[58:24.890 --> 58:24.950]  Busy.
[58:25.330 --> 58:27.790]  I put my nickel in the telephone.
[58:28.690 --> 58:30.430]  Tell my baby's number.
[58:30.630 --> 58:33.300]  Got a...
[58:33.300 --> 58:33.880]  Line.
[58:34.820 --> 58:37.940]  Each time I tried, I got a busy tone.
[58:37.940 --> 58:43.820]  Not my baby's number, just a busy line.
[58:45.860 --> 58:49.700]  Pink Jamaica left a message with the baker.
[58:49.700 --> 58:53.260]  Even checked his number in the telephone book.
[58:54.260 --> 58:57.140]  Got so awfully, awfully worried.
[58:57.360 --> 58:59.500]  To my baby's house I hurried.
[58:59.880 --> 59:04.060]  When I looked inside, the phone was off the hook, hook, hook.
[59:04.060 --> 59:09.060]  Walked up to my baby, then I got my baby's number.
[59:09.060 --> 59:12.780]  He was busy in the parlor, doing fine.
[59:13.980 --> 59:18.820]  Busy kissing someone else while I was keeping busy.
[59:19.160 --> 59:22.300]  Getting a busy line.
[59:27.560 --> 59:30.460]  Yeah, that was pretty wonderful, pretty wonderful.
[59:30.740 --> 59:31.420]  Hey, Cat.