[00:08.690 --> 00:21.540]  The sea, the sky, the you and I, see the sky, the you and I, oh, blue.
[00:24.730 --> 00:30.350]  All shades are blue, are blue, are blue.
[00:30.610 --> 00:33.090]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:33.430 --> 00:36.530]  Forgive us for the bit of disorganization.
[00:36.530 --> 00:39.470]  We're in a different studio tonight, and we're learning all the buttons.
[00:39.830 --> 00:43.010]  This button here will start the program off the hook.
[00:44.090 --> 00:45.190]  No, it won't.
[00:45.510 --> 00:47.090]  Why didn't it start the program?
[00:47.290 --> 00:49.610]  Well, it started the machine, but it's not starting the audio.
[00:49.750 --> 00:50.590]  Did I hit the wrong one?
[00:52.010 --> 00:52.810]  What did you hit?
[00:52.990 --> 00:53.830]  What did you hit, Mike?
[00:54.210 --> 00:56.750]  The A, B button.
[00:57.050 --> 00:58.370]  Why was the A, B button, and B?
[00:58.510 --> 01:00.190]  So that we could play cards from the computer.
[01:01.210 --> 01:01.670]  All right.
[01:02.670 --> 01:03.490]  This is off the hook.
[01:03.610 --> 01:04.150]  It's going to be interesting.
[01:04.290 --> 01:04.410]  Good night.
[02:37.890 --> 02:38.330]  Oh, dear.
[02:38.450 --> 02:38.750]  We're out of time.
[02:38.870 --> 02:39.030]  Okay.
[02:39.270 --> 02:40.810]  Well, let's begin the program.
[02:41.150 --> 02:41.990]  This is off the hook.
[02:41.990 --> 02:43.490]  Yes, I did start the show by saying good night.
[02:43.610 --> 02:44.970]  I think that was wishful thinking on my part.
[02:45.950 --> 02:47.210]  And we are here tonight.
[02:47.650 --> 02:52.570]  Not only are we in a different studio, but almost everybody hasn't shown up tonight because it's raining.
[02:52.710 --> 02:53.610]  That's the excuse I'm getting.
[02:53.770 --> 02:57.530]  Oh, it's raining outside, and I can't make it to the studio because it's raining too hard.
[02:58.050 --> 02:58.970]  I mean, it's incredible.
[02:59.070 --> 02:59.690]  Mike, you made it.
[03:00.130 --> 03:00.530]  Wet.
[03:00.570 --> 03:01.230]  Wet, but I'm here.
[03:01.290 --> 03:02.370]  He looks like a drowned rat.
[03:02.570 --> 03:04.210]  And that voice there is Gus.
[03:04.430 --> 03:04.690]  Hello.
[03:05.050 --> 03:08.770]  And on the phone, if I can figure out where the phone is, should be Bernie S.
[03:08.850 --> 03:09.450]  down in Philadelphia.
[03:10.290 --> 03:10.950]  You found me.
[03:11.110 --> 03:11.330]  All right.
[03:11.350 --> 03:12.950]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:13.630 --> 03:15.190]  And is it raining down there?
[03:15.890 --> 03:19.950]  It is raining down here, but I'm nice and dry here, so...
[03:19.950 --> 03:20.450]  All right.
[03:20.550 --> 03:21.670]  No, I'm not looking like a rat.
[03:22.130 --> 03:22.930]  Okay, and that's it.
[03:23.830 --> 03:27.710]  Everybody else has either bailed or is running really late or something like that.
[03:27.710 --> 03:32.270]  And this is also our last program that's going to be even remotely normal.
[03:32.270 --> 03:34.790]  As of next week, a bunch of us are going to start traveling.
[03:35.370 --> 03:37.490]  Mike, I think you might be going to the most interesting place.
[03:37.730 --> 03:38.630]  I have a question for us.
[03:38.670 --> 03:40.270]  What exactly is normal about our show?
[03:40.370 --> 03:41.090]  Well, yeah, okay.
[03:41.110 --> 03:42.030]  You can look at it that way.
[03:42.210 --> 03:43.710]  But tell us where you're heading.
[03:43.850 --> 03:44.890]  You're going somewhere kind of neat.
[03:45.350 --> 03:46.070]  North Africa.
[03:46.250 --> 03:46.870]  North Africa.
[03:47.010 --> 03:48.470]  Well, North Africa's not a country, though.
[03:49.050 --> 03:50.290]  Maybe you should be aware of that.
[03:50.790 --> 03:52.030]  You didn't ask what country I was going to.
[03:52.030 --> 03:54.070]  Well, I thought that was assumed, what country.
[03:54.330 --> 03:55.350]  I'll be in Morocco.
[03:55.890 --> 03:56.250]  Morocco.
[03:56.910 --> 03:57.270]  Fascinating.
[03:57.490 --> 03:58.990]  So if people know anything, I should do there.
[03:59.130 --> 04:01.330]  Well, I think, Bernie, you were in Morocco once, were you not?
[04:01.630 --> 04:02.810]  I have been to Morocco.
[04:02.990 --> 04:07.030]  I was there right during the beginning of the first Gulf War.
[04:07.370 --> 04:09.190]  And I was not fighting in that way.
[04:09.190 --> 04:10.410]  You went there for the Gulf War?
[04:10.630 --> 04:13.130]  No, I made my plans well ahead of time.
[04:13.130 --> 04:19.610]  But George Bush I decided to start throwing bombs just a couple days before my flight.
[04:19.610 --> 04:22.670]  And then nobody wanted to go to any Arab countries.
[04:22.670 --> 04:26.590]  So the Royal Air Maroc flight I took was virtually empty.
[04:27.010 --> 04:29.090]  So that was an interesting experience.
[04:29.450 --> 04:32.090]  But, Mike, you and I should talk because it's a very interesting country.
[04:33.570 --> 04:36.810]  And, Bernie, are you going somewhere next week or are you going after that?
[04:36.810 --> 04:38.570]  I'm going somewhere next week.
[04:38.710 --> 04:45.170]  I'm flying to Vienna to meet up with some of the people from Meda Lab there and then to attend PlumberCon.
[04:45.670 --> 04:56.250]  And then after that, we'll be taking a swing through southern Germany to see several different hackerspaces there on our way up to Haar, which is the following week.
[04:56.250 --> 04:58.850]  So it'll be a long, strange trip.
[04:59.210 --> 05:02.890]  And I'm heading overseas, I guess, in a day or so.
[05:02.890 --> 05:08.210]  And I'm going to be wandering around the British Isles and various other places and eventually making my way to Haar as well.
[05:08.970 --> 05:11.770]  And, Gus, you're not going anywhere from that sigh I just heard.
[05:11.790 --> 05:15.350]  I'm staying right here and managing the soundboard with Rob.
[05:15.670 --> 05:17.590]  We're going to need somebody to do that, obviously.
[05:17.590 --> 05:21.970]  And we will be broadcasting one way or another from overseas.
[05:22.490 --> 05:24.350]  And it'll be a bunch of interesting programs.
[05:24.470 --> 05:31.070]  And also, just to make it even more fun, next week begins our mini drive, our mini summer drive, which we usually have in July.
[05:31.270 --> 05:36.390]  You notice we didn't have it in July because we decided to try to have it in August this year to see if that works any better.
[05:37.410 --> 05:44.050]  And that's going to be your way of helping to keep the station on the air, keep the show happening.
[05:44.050 --> 05:47.350]  I had a scare coming into the city, actually, last night.
[05:47.570 --> 05:53.450]  I was listening to the radio, listening to 99.5 FM, and I heard all this music.
[05:53.850 --> 05:57.170]  And, you know, we do play music a lot of times, especially at night.
[05:57.610 --> 06:08.890]  And I heard they were playing Michael Jackson, except it wasn't the Michael Jackson that you usually hear on the commercial radio, the studio stuff that sounds awful.
[06:09.710 --> 06:12.490]  But this was a live concert, and it actually sounded kind of good.
[06:12.490 --> 06:20.270]  But the thing that bothered me was on my radio, on my car radio, it said WBC...
[06:20.270 --> 06:21.190]  Oh, wait, wait, let's say it again.
[06:22.430 --> 06:23.510]  CRB, WCRB, it said.
[06:24.310 --> 06:28.550]  And those of you who listen to the radio station know that our call letters are WBAI.
[06:28.950 --> 06:32.090]  So I was wondering, why did it say WCRB?
[06:33.030 --> 06:36.970]  And as I was getting closer and closer to the city, the signal was getting stronger and stronger.
[06:37.050 --> 06:38.230]  Those letters were not going away.
[06:39.330 --> 06:43.170]  And I just was worrying, because I just kept hearing the music continuing.
[06:43.350 --> 06:44.330]  And I was like, well, what happened?
[06:44.470 --> 06:51.990]  Did a Michael Jackson company take over the radio station and just start playing Michael Jackson music over and over again and change the call letters of the station?
[06:52.190 --> 06:56.550]  These are the kind of things you have to worry about, because, you know, that can happen at any moment.
[06:56.650 --> 06:57.270]  We could go country.
[07:08.230 --> 07:12.250]  I was in logical ways when things happen, and I decided not to panic.
[07:12.370 --> 07:16.810]  So what I did was I simply pulled over to the side of the road and turned my car off and then turned it on again.
[07:17.450 --> 07:25.610]  And sure enough, that solved the problem, because apparently what had happened was my car had latched onto a signal of a radio station someplace else, I think in Boston, actually.
[07:25.890 --> 07:29.330]  And it grabbed the call letters and just left it on the screen.
[07:29.470 --> 07:32.190]  It's supposed to reset them when it gets a different signal, but it didn't.
[07:32.830 --> 07:37.030]  And it just said 99.5 after that, because we don't have those little letters that get transmitted somehow.
[07:37.790 --> 07:39.430]  I see Red Hat going back and forth.
[07:39.470 --> 07:40.590]  I think he can't find the studio.
[07:40.770 --> 07:41.850]  We're in here, in here.
[07:42.010 --> 07:42.570]  Oh, there you are.
[07:42.690 --> 07:42.850]  Good.
[07:43.110 --> 07:43.750]  Couldn't see us, huh?
[07:44.150 --> 07:45.150]  I couldn't figure out how to get in.
[07:46.390 --> 07:47.610]  Well, you made it down to the studio.
[07:47.610 --> 07:48.230]  That's the important thing.
[07:48.270 --> 07:49.990]  Yeah, I could defeat a torrential downpour.
[07:50.030 --> 07:50.510]  Yeah, I know.
[07:50.570 --> 07:50.990]  It's raining.
[07:51.090 --> 07:51.590]  It's raining outside.
[07:51.650 --> 07:52.270]  Oh, no, but also...
[07:52.270 --> 07:53.310]  Use a microphone.
[07:53.450 --> 07:53.770]  It's radio.
[07:53.870 --> 07:58.030]  The website I used for, I was biking, for biking directions, neglected to mention that, like...
[07:58.030 --> 07:58.930]  Wait, wait, stop.
[07:59.270 --> 07:59.910]  Biking directions?
[08:00.050 --> 08:00.770]  You live in New York City.
[08:00.770 --> 08:02.010]  What do you need directions to get here for?
[08:02.010 --> 08:02.110]  That makes two.
[08:02.230 --> 08:03.930]  Two people biked here today, in the torrential rain.
[08:04.010 --> 08:05.830]  But Mike didn't need directions to get to the studio.
[08:05.950 --> 08:06.750]  Well, because I'd never done it before.
[08:07.330 --> 08:08.990]  I'm not from where I was coming from.
[08:09.210 --> 08:09.350]  All right.
[08:09.350 --> 08:16.130]  But the thing is that it neglected to note the fact that about two-thirds of the way was detoured roads and closed roads.
[08:16.150 --> 08:19.270]  So I need to email them and tell them to update their data.
[08:19.550 --> 08:21.170]  Okay, you work on that.
[08:21.630 --> 08:25.310]  So anyway, it was a scare, but it was a false alarm.
[08:25.770 --> 08:30.750]  The radio station's still here, and those Aaron Call Letters are no longer affiliated.
[08:30.770 --> 08:33.010]  With this frequency, at least in New York.
[08:33.210 --> 08:33.670]  Could you just...
[08:34.450 --> 08:35.570]  Yes, Mike first, then Bernie.
[08:35.650 --> 08:38.170]  Could you just turn your radio off without turning the whole car off?
[08:38.650 --> 08:40.010]  Well, yeah, I could have done that, I suppose.
[08:40.250 --> 08:41.490]  But I wanted to do a hard reset.
[08:41.710 --> 08:42.730]  You know, I wanted to...
[08:42.730 --> 08:43.910]  Sometimes that's not enough.
[08:44.070 --> 08:46.110]  Sometimes you have to reset the entire...
[08:46.110 --> 08:47.350]  Look, I want to be thorough, okay?
[08:47.350 --> 08:48.210]  I didn't want to have to do it twice.
[08:49.270 --> 08:50.450]  So, yeah, I did that.
[08:51.310 --> 08:52.670]  I had another incident.
[08:52.810 --> 08:53.250]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[08:53.790 --> 09:03.970]  Oh, I just want to say, the system that displays, automatically displays on your radio, the call letters and other information about the station you're listening to, is called the RDS, the radio data system.
[09:04.290 --> 09:06.470]  And it's an interesting system.
[09:06.550 --> 09:08.170]  It's not really used well in this country.
[09:08.330 --> 09:13.690]  I mean, all they do in this country pretty much is send this data stream that just has the call letters.
[09:13.690 --> 09:18.890]  And that, or maybe the alternative name of the station, like Y100 or whatever.
[09:19.370 --> 09:29.330]  But I've noticed in Europe, the stations all over there broadcast a continuous stream of text that goes over, like with shout-outs to listeners.
[09:29.630 --> 09:30.770]  And it's really cool.
[09:30.770 --> 09:41.010]  So the DJs have live control over the radio data system stream, where in this country I've never seen any station do anything other than just the boring transmission of the call letters.
[09:41.150 --> 09:42.870]  So it's really a wasted resource.
[09:42.870 --> 09:53.570]  Well, when I was driving around Middle America with an XM Sirius radio, they make use of similar data streams that display on your radio.
[09:54.710 --> 10:03.190]  And when I was exploring, I noticed some stations would actually give the score of the game they were broadcasting, if they were doing a baseball game or something like that, and it would update.
[10:03.350 --> 10:04.310]  And that was kind of cool.
[10:04.430 --> 10:07.330]  And the other ones, of course, did songs immediately as soon as they updated.
[10:07.570 --> 10:09.670]  So yeah, it'd be nice to have something like that here at WBAI.
[10:09.670 --> 10:13.150]  I just don't imagine I could be typing things while I'm talking on the air.
[10:13.170 --> 10:15.130]  That could be kind of distracting and annoying.
[10:16.570 --> 10:26.390]  Well, it's just another nice addition to the medium of radio, if you could just have a few words about, you know, what you're talking about, or the name of the song and the artist.
[10:26.690 --> 10:29.570]  You know, useful information other than just the call letters.
[10:29.570 --> 10:36.050]  It's just, it's, the resource is there, it should be used, not expensive to broadcast an RDS subcarrier.
[10:36.210 --> 10:39.030]  And all stations should make better use of it, in my opinion.
[10:39.130 --> 10:43.590]  Well, I like to make the jump and actually just broadcast our call letters, because we're not even doing that here right now.
[10:43.690 --> 10:48.070]  But maybe that's a goal we can, we can establish for the near future.
[10:49.090 --> 10:49.530]  Sorry, go ahead.
[10:49.690 --> 10:51.850]  Maybe if we do well on our fun drive next week.
[10:51.970 --> 10:52.250]  Maybe.
[10:52.470 --> 10:55.990]  I don't think it's very expensive to install that, that thing, whatever, whatever does that.
[10:57.190 --> 11:11.770]  But, okay, anyway, we have an important announcement that we also want to pass along from our friends over at HAR, that's Hacking at Random, the conference over in Holland that a bunch of us are going to, taking place, well, mid-August.
[11:11.990 --> 11:12.790]  What are the exact dates?
[11:12.870 --> 11:13.370]  Do you remember, Mike?
[11:13.610 --> 11:15.230]  It starts on the 13th.
[11:15.550 --> 11:16.030]  13th, okay.
[11:16.030 --> 11:17.490]  Or the 16th or so.
[11:17.490 --> 11:18.310]  Yeah, something like that.
[11:18.470 --> 11:19.750]  It doesn't really matter if you don't have tickets.
[11:19.770 --> 11:21.090]  Yeah, we shouldn't really play it up anymore.
[11:21.290 --> 11:21.850]  No, we shouldn't.
[11:21.850 --> 11:22.570]  And here's the reason.
[11:22.710 --> 11:25.970]  We got this thing in the mail, and it's up on the websites and everything like that.
[11:25.990 --> 11:31.250]  But it's called The Last Announcement, The Final Announcement.
[11:31.430 --> 11:32.710]  Yes, no more announcements.
[11:33.010 --> 11:35.130]  Hopefully, this is not farewell, but merely goodbye.
[11:35.210 --> 11:36.910]  See you at Horror 2009.
[11:36.910 --> 11:41.510]  They're saying goodbye to the internet because apparently they're all moving out to a camp field right now and setting things up.
[11:41.990 --> 11:45.070]  In this announcement, no door sale, really.
[11:46.770 --> 11:52.150]  And what they mean by that is just to make it clear, there will be no tickets available at the event entrance.
[11:52.490 --> 11:53.230]  It bites.
[11:53.450 --> 11:53.950]  We know it.
[11:54.110 --> 12:08.510]  But what would bite even more is an event that is too crowded to enjoy ourselves, where the lecture hall is already overfilled before you even reach it, where there are long lines for food, toilets, and showers, where you cannot turn around without pushing over at least two other visitors.
[12:08.790 --> 12:10.330]  Let's not do that.
[12:10.850 --> 12:13.330]  But thinking about ignoring this message and coming over anyway?
[12:13.810 --> 12:14.290]  Don't.
[12:14.530 --> 12:17.910]  We would hate to have to send you home again, especially if you are coming from far.
[12:18.070 --> 12:20.930]  We are already over capacity, but still in the comfort zone.
[12:21.110 --> 12:25.670]  However, if we let people in after all, we will leave the comfort zone and arrive in hell.
[12:25.810 --> 12:29.470]  Or worse, a commercial festival where ticket sales are more important than visitor comfort.
[12:29.710 --> 12:35.090]  We cannot, and we really regret this, let a single person in anymore.
[12:35.710 --> 12:41.010]  So, well, maybe next time when we say tickets are available and get them soon, you'll listen.
[12:41.210 --> 12:44.450]  Because I've never actually seen this happen before, but it's sold out.
[12:44.710 --> 12:51.830]  You know, it's interesting too, because the event has a wiki, and two pages sprung up on the wiki after the ticket sold out.
[12:51.910 --> 12:58.090]  One was called, I think it was called Tickets or Unused Tickets or something, which was kind of a marketplace for tickets.
[12:58.150 --> 12:59.270]  And that was kind of sad to read.
[12:59.910 --> 13:02.010]  And then the other one was called Vent Your Frustration.
[13:02.070 --> 13:02.750]  Yeah, I saw that.
[13:02.850 --> 13:03.610]  Yeah, which was kind of funny.
[13:03.610 --> 13:04.050]  That was nice.
[13:04.190 --> 13:06.930]  It paid for you to just go crazy and be angry.
[13:07.130 --> 13:11.650]  But then there was one person who did something neat, and I don't know, I guess he had extra tickets for some reason.
[13:11.770 --> 13:12.670]  He had bought extra or something.
[13:13.310 --> 13:22.590]  And, you know, on the ticket exchange, most people were saying, you know, I'm willing to pay up to this much money, or, you know, I'm sure that whoever's selling them on eBay is trying to make a profit.
[13:22.850 --> 13:29.290]  This is the Michael Jackson concert mood that I thought we'd see this year, but apparently it's for horror instead.
[13:29.530 --> 13:29.730]  Right.
[13:30.210 --> 13:45.230]  But what was interesting was one person with extra tickets, I think he had two or three said that if you're willing to pay 350 euros to come to the conference, I will sell you the ticket for 155 if you bring 195 euros worth of equipment for us to use.
[13:45.430 --> 13:47.230]  That way the conference benefits instead of me.
[13:47.370 --> 13:47.990]  So that was kind of neat.
[13:48.090 --> 13:48.690]  That is kind of neat.
[13:49.590 --> 13:55.090]  We actually have gotten a piece of mail, actually a couple of pieces of mail from listeners saying that they have a ticket.
[13:55.250 --> 13:57.390]  They were going to go and now they're not going.
[13:58.330 --> 14:03.830]  So maybe we can help some people out if, you know, if people want to write to us and say they have a ticket.
[14:04.130 --> 14:07.030]  And if you want to write to us and say you need a ticket, maybe we can hook the two of you together.
[14:07.130 --> 14:10.330]  But But the rule is we don't want people scalping.
[14:10.490 --> 14:16.330]  So the ticket has to be within a reasonable amount as the original cost.
[14:16.470 --> 14:17.050]  Is that fair?
[14:17.150 --> 14:21.730]  And be forewarned if you are trying to buy a ticket that the ticket codes are used once.
[14:21.950 --> 14:28.290]  So if the person sells you the ticket and then shows up to the conference anyway before you, you're not getting in.
[14:28.410 --> 14:30.210]  Yes, except we will know their email address.
[14:30.650 --> 14:30.970]  Well, right.
[14:31.030 --> 14:34.050]  If we were doing it, but if you're doing it on email or something.
[14:34.050 --> 14:34.230]  Right.
[14:34.310 --> 14:41.790]  Not that we can vouch for everybody that emails us, but at least we can help you track them down and exact revenge if it comes down to it.
[14:41.810 --> 14:44.950]  I wonder if there are going to be people across the street in their own little village.
[14:45.630 --> 14:46.510]  Well, I don't know.
[14:46.510 --> 14:47.570]  I'm curious what's going to happen.
[14:47.570 --> 14:50.770]  Have you gone to Google Earth and looked at what it looks like across the street?
[14:50.830 --> 14:52.290]  I mean, I don't know what's across the street.
[14:52.410 --> 14:52.650]  No, I don't either.
[14:52.770 --> 14:53.590]  Probably someone's house.
[14:53.770 --> 14:54.470]  Yeah, it might be.
[14:54.610 --> 14:56.250]  It could be a rival camp or something like that.
[14:57.390 --> 14:58.470]  But it's going to be fun.
[14:58.690 --> 15:01.190]  And those of us who are going, we all got tickets, right?
[15:01.950 --> 15:02.590]  Except Voltaire.
[15:02.590 --> 15:03.250]  Except Voltaire.
[15:03.430 --> 15:04.010]  Well, he's on his own.
[15:05.670 --> 15:07.470]  But maybe this listener can help him.
[15:07.510 --> 15:08.770]  Or maybe he's working on something else.
[15:09.850 --> 15:11.290]  But yeah, it's going to be amazing.
[15:11.510 --> 15:15.310]  And of course, we'll be broadcasting from there, I believe, the day before on Wednesday.
[15:15.550 --> 15:17.530]  The conference starts on a Thursday and goes until Sunday.
[15:17.770 --> 15:21.130]  Are we going to try to set up something on the local, on the sub-Ether radio there?
[15:21.270 --> 15:21.970]  We're going to try, yeah.
[15:22.090 --> 15:23.530]  We're going to try to set up a time slot.
[15:23.630 --> 15:24.870]  Maybe we'll do another edition of Off the Wall.
[15:25.130 --> 15:30.570]  We should figure that out so we can announce it next, two weeks from now before we do it.
[15:30.690 --> 15:31.050]  Two weeks.
[15:31.450 --> 15:31.810]  Two weeks.
[15:31.910 --> 15:32.050]  Okay.
[15:33.790 --> 15:35.210]  Some station business.
[15:35.710 --> 15:42.570]  There are still a bunch of people getting their premiums, not from the May fundraiser.
[15:42.630 --> 15:43.390]  Yeah, the May fundraiser.
[15:43.530 --> 15:43.930]  What is this?
[15:43.950 --> 15:44.670]  This is July, right?
[15:44.750 --> 15:44.910]  Okay.
[15:45.430 --> 15:46.730]  But we had one in February.
[15:47.010 --> 15:49.550]  If you guys remember, way back in February, we had another fundraiser.
[15:49.890 --> 15:52.530]  And we're actually still sending premiums out from that.
[15:53.490 --> 15:55.510]  And there is one problem, though.
[15:55.650 --> 15:56.550]  One problem that we're having.
[15:56.650 --> 15:57.450]  There was one week.
[15:57.470 --> 16:00.750]  I think it was on February 11th, 2009.
[16:00.750 --> 16:05.270]  We were giving away the $2,600 book for a pledge of $125.
[16:06.870 --> 16:11.210]  Now, I was talking to somebody that was looking at their computer system, the BAI computer system.
[16:11.390 --> 16:14.110]  And they can't find that particular premium code.
[16:14.250 --> 16:18.450]  Because apparently what happens is when they write down the premium, it's always the same.
[16:18.590 --> 16:19.870]  It's off the hook, something or other.
[16:20.170 --> 16:21.970]  And they can't differentiate which one is which.
[16:22.010 --> 16:23.310]  And apparently they can't look it up by date.
[16:23.310 --> 16:24.250]  I don't know why this is.
[16:24.410 --> 16:36.170]  But if anybody remembers pledging on February 11th for the book, $125 for the collector's edition 2600 book, and you email us with your name, we can look up your name.
[16:36.310 --> 16:38.790]  And from that information, we'll get the premium code.
[16:38.790 --> 16:43.730]  And then we can input the premium code into the computer and find a list of everybody who pledged.
[16:43.730 --> 16:44.710]  This is what we have to do here.
[16:44.830 --> 16:46.090]  But we are trying.
[16:46.250 --> 16:47.070]  We are really trying.
[16:47.230 --> 16:49.950]  So if you pledged for a book and you didn't get it, help us out.
[16:50.010 --> 16:51.330]  On February 11th, 2009.
[16:51.330 --> 16:53.770]  Help us out by telling us what your name is.
[16:53.770 --> 16:54.330]  Tell us who you are.
[16:54.450 --> 16:57.450]  And we'll look you up and get the premium code and find everybody else.
[16:57.470 --> 16:59.290]  So you'll be helping everybody, not just yourself.
[17:01.150 --> 17:04.970]  And as far as the May fundraiser, that's the next thing we're going to do.
[17:05.150 --> 17:07.390]  First, we have to get through the next fundraiser, which is two weeks.
[17:07.470 --> 17:13.290]  When we all get back from wherever we're traveling to, we're going to tackle that one and get everything to everybody.
[17:13.690 --> 17:14.650]  We will do it.
[17:14.670 --> 17:15.010]  We will.
[17:15.170 --> 17:16.230]  No question about that.
[17:16.710 --> 17:17.050]  Okay.
[17:17.330 --> 17:18.750]  What else has been going on in the news?
[17:18.990 --> 17:20.730]  A bunch of interesting things.
[17:20.730 --> 17:23.930]  We have a special guest tonight, but we'll get to in just a moment or two.
[17:24.770 --> 17:32.230]  But Red Act, I think you had some interesting comments about this lawsuit that happened as a result of Twitter.
[17:32.830 --> 17:35.970]  Somebody tweeted about mold in an apartment and they got sued?
[17:36.230 --> 17:36.470]  Right.
[17:36.470 --> 17:41.970]  So somebody, I forget her name, Amanda or something, Bonin.
[17:42.970 --> 17:44.290]  That's good if you can remember her name.
[17:44.470 --> 17:46.490]  She posted a tweet saying that the...
[17:46.490 --> 17:46.850]  That's her name.
[17:46.890 --> 17:46.990]  Yeah.
[17:47.050 --> 17:47.690]  I'm looking at the story now.
[17:47.830 --> 17:48.390]  Amanda Bonin.
[17:48.490 --> 17:48.950]  Very nice.
[17:49.170 --> 17:50.350]  Oh, well, why don't you read what it says?
[17:50.390 --> 17:51.090]  Because I don't remember that.
[17:51.210 --> 17:51.390]  Okay.
[17:51.490 --> 17:55.090]  Well, they say it was a not so sweet tweet about a Chicago apartment.
[17:55.170 --> 17:55.970]  Did you want me to read that?
[17:56.110 --> 17:57.250]  Or did you want me to just talk about it?
[17:57.330 --> 17:57.830]  She said.
[17:57.830 --> 17:58.510]  Oh, okay.
[17:59.530 --> 18:07.630]  Basically, she said, her actual tweet, what reads in part, who said sleeping in a moldy apartment was bad for you?
[18:07.810 --> 18:10.190]  Horizon really thinks it's okay.
[18:10.590 --> 18:10.950]  Realty.
[18:11.530 --> 18:14.950]  Well, it just said Horizon apparently is a realty company or something like that.
[18:15.590 --> 18:20.830]  So that came from the handle, Bonin, and they were able to trace that to Amanda Bonin.
[18:21.430 --> 18:27.370]  And basically, she was complaining about an apartment that had, allegedly had mold in it.
[18:27.370 --> 18:28.890]  Now, this is interesting.
[18:29.250 --> 18:38.490]  They say that Jeffrey Michael, the spokesperson for Horizon, his family has run it for more than 25 years, said the statements are obviously false, and it's our intention to prove that.
[18:38.770 --> 18:44.450]  Now, he said that while she moved out recently, the company never had a conversation about the post and never asked her to take it down.
[18:44.930 --> 18:47.910]  We're a sue-first, ask-questions-later kind of an organization.
[18:48.110 --> 18:50.670]  Did he actually say that out loud?
[18:50.930 --> 18:54.370]  We're a sue-first, ask-questions-later kind of an organization.
[18:55.450 --> 18:55.890]  Wow.
[18:55.890 --> 18:57.690]  What kind of moron is...
[18:57.690 --> 19:00.850]  Well, now I'm going to get sued, but who says that about their company?
[19:01.190 --> 19:05.010]  Who wants to do business with a sue-first organization?
[19:05.130 --> 19:05.750]  Sue their tenants.
[19:06.410 --> 19:07.510]  Sue anybody, apparently.
[19:08.210 --> 19:12.570]  He said the company manages 1,500 apartments in Chicago and has a good reputation.
[19:12.730 --> 19:13.530]  It wants to preserve.
[19:13.750 --> 19:14.390]  Well, guess what?
[19:15.250 --> 19:19.030]  Reputation has just taken a nosedive with stupid statements like that.
[19:19.310 --> 19:21.370]  And, you know, mold can grow anywhere.
[19:21.370 --> 19:23.510]  You know, it's quite possible.
[19:23.870 --> 19:25.370]  Mold can grow in any apartment.
[19:25.730 --> 19:27.290]  So, you know, you should at least look into it.
[19:27.430 --> 19:28.570]  So they're suing her for libel.
[19:28.750 --> 19:29.370]  And they say...
[19:29.370 --> 19:32.610]  I mean, there was a follow-up where they said that she was suing them first.
[19:32.730 --> 19:38.410]  It's like, okay, you know, but you don't sue somebody for $50,000 for libel.
[19:38.410 --> 19:44.510]  That something like this is kind of one of those things where when you do it, it's going to end up generating more negative publicity.
[19:44.690 --> 19:45.130]  We see this a lot.
[19:45.330 --> 19:51.770]  This is where suddenly Rob introduced us to this website or introduced us to the idea of the Streisand effect, which I'm sure some of the listeners have heard about.
[19:51.970 --> 19:52.970]  What is the Streisand effect?
[19:53.290 --> 19:53.830]  Maybe it was Bernie.
[19:54.290 --> 20:00.230]  The Streisand effect, apparently Barbara Streisand was involved in something where she sued somebody in order to make some information go away.
[20:00.530 --> 20:04.730]  And that doesn't really work because, you know, in this day and age, you know, the information goes out further.
[20:04.850 --> 20:06.210]  If there's a lawsuit, that's more news.
[20:06.210 --> 20:11.210]  So I hadn't seen that somebody had created a website related to the Streisand effect before.
[20:11.710 --> 20:12.790]  But it's really kind of neat.
[20:12.930 --> 20:22.370]  It's this neat catalog of all of these cases that are sort of spiraled out of control because instead of, you know, just ignoring something and hoping it'll go away, companies are like, oh, let's sue this into non-existence.
[20:22.490 --> 20:24.810]  And instead, it just, things just get noisier and noisier.
[20:24.990 --> 20:28.270]  We actually have been seeing this a lot lately, I feel like.
[20:28.370 --> 20:32.530]  This isn't some, the type of story isn't something we haven't seen more and more often.
[20:32.830 --> 20:34.110]  There was another one that came across our list today.
[20:36.550 --> 20:37.410]  I don't remember.
[20:37.770 --> 20:37.850]  Yeah.
[20:38.270 --> 20:41.050]  But this is, I mean, this seems to be, companies are dumb.
[20:41.170 --> 20:50.350]  And I don't think they realize what the power of the internet is at this point, especially because it's become so easy for people to just kind of propagate information and complain.
[20:50.510 --> 20:52.590]  And not, you know, not really know the facts either.
[20:52.590 --> 20:57.190]  I'm sure that, you know, thousands of people who retweeted this story didn't actually know what was going on.
[20:57.190 --> 20:58.770]  They just, you know, forwarded it on.
[20:58.830 --> 21:07.930]  Is this the first time somebody has tweeted about something and gotten sued as a result of tweeting, you know, the 140 characters that can get you hauled into court?
[21:08.110 --> 21:08.470]  Probably.
[21:08.790 --> 21:11.390]  I've never heard of anything before, at least not to this degree.
[21:11.910 --> 21:12.170]  Okay.
[21:12.250 --> 21:12.790]  Well, it's unusual.
[21:13.150 --> 21:13.510]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[21:14.090 --> 21:34.030]  I just wanted to say, I'm sure it may not be the first time, but it should be made known to the public, especially landlords, that if you make a comment in public, like, we're a Sue-first-ask-questions-later company, and then you hire a PR firm, as this tent landlord did,
[21:34.370 --> 21:46.950]  to acknowledge that that statement was made and to say it was made tongue-in-cheek, then, once that's made in public, that kind of a statement, and acknowledged in public by like a PR firm, then that could be admitted in court.
[21:46.950 --> 22:01.750]  So, this tenant has a very good case now, and I don't think there's any judge in the country that's going to look kindly upon somebody who's suing a tenant, saying that they're a Sue-first-ask-questions-later company.
[22:01.890 --> 22:08.590]  So, I think this landlord's going to have egg in their face going into the courtroom and accomplish exactly opposite of what they wanted to.
[22:09.290 --> 22:12.230]  Egg in their face goes well with the mold in the apartment, apparently.
[22:12.730 --> 22:16.230]  The story has really gone viral, or fungal.
[22:17.950 --> 22:20.650]  Okay, well, Gus, maybe this was the story you were talking about.
[22:20.730 --> 22:23.310]  Is this the Facebook lawsuit?
[22:23.510 --> 22:27.410]  The student filing a lawsuit against a coach for posting Facebook content?
[22:27.530 --> 22:28.270]  I think that was it, yeah.
[22:28.390 --> 22:38.590]  A Mississippi high school student is suing her school district after a teacher logged into the student's social networking account and distributed information that embarrassed her and led to her removal from the team.
[22:39.510 --> 22:52.510]  Yeah, now, on September 2nd, 10th, rather, 2007, Pearl High School cheerleading coach Tommy Hill required each member of the cheerleading squad to reveal the passwords to their Facebook accounts.
[22:52.890 --> 23:00.670]  Now, many of the students immediately deleted their accounts using their mobile phones, but this girl did not, Mandy Jackson.
[23:00.670 --> 23:01.670]  She did not delete her account.
[23:02.270 --> 23:12.650]  Apparently, the coach later logged into her Facebook account and disseminated content, including private messages with another Pearl High School student to other teachers, cheerleading coaches, and the principal and superintendent.
[23:12.970 --> 23:25.370]  And according to the lawsuit, the officials reprimanded, punished, and humiliated Jackson for an exchange of profanity-laced messages between her and the cheerleading captain, in which Jackson asked the student to stop harassing several of the cheerleaders.
[23:25.370 --> 23:34.230]  You know, it goes into all kinds of detail here, but I mean, why does somebody get away with insisting that you give them your password?
[23:35.450 --> 23:37.150]  And isn't that the main issue here?
[23:37.190 --> 23:40.030]  Not what she said on her Facebook account or the fact that there's a lawsuit.
[23:40.150 --> 23:44.650]  How does somebody keep their job or knock into a whole lot of trouble for doing this, Mike?
[23:44.830 --> 23:49.910]  By being, quote, the adult and having the power over the student to make these coercions.
[23:50.110 --> 23:50.330]  Uh-huh.
[23:50.330 --> 23:50.330]  Yeah.
[23:50.790 --> 23:59.390]  Well, I mean, it's something that we talked about a little bit last week with Pandora saying, give us your password to your Gmail account.
[23:59.550 --> 24:01.370]  And I was amazed that anybody would do that.
[24:01.490 --> 24:05.830]  But apparently, this kind of thing happens in other arenas as well.
[24:05.990 --> 24:12.830]  We reported not too long ago about, I think it was a city that was requiring all job applicants to hand over their social networking passwords.
[24:13.930 --> 24:14.370]  And...
[24:14.370 --> 24:17.450]  What happens if you give them the wrong password?
[24:17.630 --> 24:18.090]  What do they do?
[24:18.190 --> 24:21.090]  They come after you and file charges against you for giving...
[24:21.090 --> 24:28.110]  The city, which has since, in the face of public outcry, gotten rid of this policy, wouldn't give you the job if you lied to them on the job application.
[24:28.350 --> 24:32.530]  But would they contact you first and say, oh, you know, we're trying to get into your account and we just... we're having trouble.
[24:32.670 --> 24:33.270]  Can you help us?
[24:33.370 --> 24:34.470]  You know, because maybe it's just a mistake.
[24:34.570 --> 24:35.310]  Maybe they wrote something down.
[24:35.470 --> 24:35.750]  Sure.
[24:35.890 --> 24:47.730]  But if you refuse to get... if you refuse to comply with the applications on the job instruction, barring exceptional circumstances like the bad publicity that came about in this particular case, you won't get the job.
[24:47.730 --> 24:52.170]  I would just like to have a recording of them saying... leaving a voicemail message saying, please, we need your password.
[24:52.290 --> 24:54.670]  We're trying to get into your Facebook account or your Gmail to read your mail.
[24:55.070 --> 24:58.950]  And just get that on tape or something so you can have some fun with that as well.
[24:59.590 --> 25:00.310]  Dot Red, welcome.
[25:00.550 --> 25:02.850]  You're late too because of the weather, apparently.
[25:03.150 --> 25:03.470]  What's...
[25:03.470 --> 25:04.050]  Uh, yeah.
[25:04.150 --> 25:05.990]  Well, actually more because of the MTA.
[25:06.290 --> 25:06.790]  Well, yeah.
[25:06.790 --> 25:07.810]  They can't handle the weather either.
[25:08.150 --> 25:08.990]  Oh, I have an MTA story.
[25:09.070 --> 25:11.590]  But give us your input on this first and then...
[25:12.230 --> 25:17.770]  Uh, well, I was just gonna make a comment about the school thing and why the schools are able to do these sorts of things.
[25:18.090 --> 25:22.930]  Uh, from the words of one of my old high school teachers, how he described the environment of schools.
[25:22.950 --> 25:27.430]  He said, quote, that they are a benevolent dictatorship.
[25:27.770 --> 25:27.890]  Mm-hmm.
[25:27.970 --> 25:28.490]  I've heard that said.
[25:28.650 --> 25:29.890]  Which means they can do whatever they want.
[25:30.010 --> 25:30.110]  Yeah.
[25:30.130 --> 25:33.250]  You don't have the same rights in school that you do walking around the streets.
[25:33.610 --> 25:34.010]  Okay.
[25:34.050 --> 25:35.510]  My MTA story, by the way.
[25:35.710 --> 25:37.370]  Uh, this just happened today, actually.
[25:37.370 --> 25:44.070]  I was, um, I was performing an experiment because last week I had this, this incident happen to me and it didn't make any sense.
[25:44.470 --> 25:50.270]  And so what I decided to do was duplicate exactly the same thing that I did because I had, I had a follow-up appointment.
[25:50.410 --> 25:51.190]  I had an appointment in Brooklyn.
[25:51.710 --> 25:59.230]  Uh, so I wound up, uh, walking to a particular train station, taking the F train into Brooklyn, uh, and then going back and then transferring to a bus.
[25:59.490 --> 26:01.450]  Did the exact same thing two weeks in a row.
[26:01.510 --> 26:07.530]  And what I did was I went to one of those machines and I bought a, um, a MetroCard for two fares, only two fares.
[26:07.610 --> 26:08.830]  I just wanted the two fares, nothing else.
[26:08.930 --> 26:10.470]  So I bought a MetroCard for $4.50.
[26:10.790 --> 26:11.990]  The fare just went up to $2.25.
[26:12.630 --> 26:21.050]  And I took a train over and then I was there for about an hour or two hours, took a train back, tried to get on the M9 bus and it didn't work.
[26:21.250 --> 26:27.490]  Both times, both times it said, uh, uh, read error and, uh, the full fare is $2.25.
[26:27.750 --> 26:29.750]  Zero has been applied and you must pay again.
[26:30.330 --> 26:30.530]  Yeah.
[26:30.730 --> 26:31.290]  It happened twice.
[26:31.450 --> 26:33.010]  So I might've found some kind of bug.
[26:33.130 --> 26:41.310]  I wanted to duplicate exactly what I did, you know, buy a $4.50 MetroCard and, and, and try and see if the same exact thing happened because I suspected this is weird.
[26:41.430 --> 26:42.370]  This has never happened before.
[26:42.650 --> 26:43.930]  You know, I always get the transfer.
[26:44.090 --> 26:44.730]  Why didn't it work?
[26:44.810 --> 26:45.990]  Is there something special I did?
[26:46.110 --> 26:53.570]  And now I'm beginning to wonder maybe if you buy something for just that amount or maybe just use that particular station or that particular bus, who knows?
[26:53.690 --> 26:53.930]  Red Hecht?
[26:53.930 --> 26:58.490]  Did you have to use the MetroCard bonus calculator to calculate exactly getting $4.50?
[26:58.570 --> 27:00.210]  No, I multiply $2.25 by two.
[27:00.730 --> 27:03.430]  No, because they give you an automatic, what is it, $10, $15?
[27:03.950 --> 27:04.530]  Oh, all right.
[27:04.670 --> 27:06.650]  Well, only if you spend at least eight bucks or something.
[27:06.970 --> 27:07.150]  Yeah, yeah.
[27:07.310 --> 27:11.250]  I wanted to keep it simple, but apparently keeping things simple makes things just more complex.
[27:11.410 --> 27:13.830]  And that's unfortunately my lot in life.
[27:14.290 --> 27:14.950]  Um, okay.
[27:15.190 --> 27:17.530]  Uh, and one more interesting thing.
[27:17.770 --> 27:21.270]  Uh, the department, the department of, uh, Homeland Security has launched a YouTube channel.
[27:21.850 --> 27:23.350]  I believe, Bernie, you're particularly thrilled with this.
[27:23.450 --> 27:23.710]  Were you not?
[27:24.390 --> 27:26.990]  Uh, well, it's just more government propaganda.
[27:27.290 --> 27:27.410]  Yeah.
[27:27.630 --> 27:38.030]  And, uh, that was, you know, it's an interesting thing that the department of Homeland Security has embraced, uh, YouTube as a, as a distribution, uh, medium, just like the White House has.
[27:39.450 --> 27:39.870]  That's right.
[27:39.890 --> 27:40.190]  Absolutely.
[27:40.910 --> 27:43.430]  Uh, so, uh, how do you, how do you get there exactly?
[27:43.870 --> 27:45.690]  Uh, does anybody have the, uh, the name of it?
[27:45.830 --> 27:50.370]  That's, um, well, the Coast Guard's 467 videos are apparently the most popular.
[27:50.530 --> 27:53.010]  They have 200,000, uh, views.
[27:53.230 --> 27:54.930]  It's called the DHS YouTube channels.
[27:55.030 --> 27:56.490]  I guess you just type DHS in there.
[27:57.190 --> 27:57.690]  Go ahead.
[27:57.910 --> 28:01.570]  What does the Coast Guard have 400 and whatever videos about?
[28:01.830 --> 28:02.430]  I'm not going to reveal.
[28:02.550 --> 28:04.210]  You're going to have to go there yourself and find out.
[28:04.370 --> 28:06.310]  That's well, make time.
[28:06.470 --> 28:07.150]  400 videos.
[28:07.310 --> 28:07.990]  That's a lot to watch.
[28:08.050 --> 28:09.590]  They're only one minute long each.
[28:09.810 --> 28:10.010]  Yeah.
[28:10.210 --> 28:21.710]  And also there was this ruling in Vancouver and up in Canada, a key tool that nightclubs and, uh, bars used to keep out undesirable patrons has been ruled illegal by British Columbia's information and privacy commissioner.
[28:21.830 --> 28:23.230]  They have an information and privacy commissioner.
[28:23.290 --> 28:24.590]  Yeah, they have privacy regulations.
[28:24.790 --> 28:26.770]  They have all kinds of crazy things up in Canada.
[28:26.910 --> 28:27.210]  Wow.
[28:27.550 --> 28:35.870]  Uh, well, they've ordered one Vancouver nightclub to stop scanning customers' personal identification as a condition of being allowed into the club.
[28:35.970 --> 28:37.350]  Why didn't they order all of them to stop?
[28:37.770 --> 28:39.830]  There was probably a lawsuit involving the one.
[28:39.990 --> 28:40.190]  Okay.
[28:40.270 --> 28:48.110]  Well, the system uses software developed by Vancouver-based TrioScope Technologies to scan information into a database of all nightclub customers.
[28:48.110 --> 28:55.650]  It's mandatory for all clubs belonging to the Bar Watch program set up to curb violence in and around nightclubs by screening customers.
[28:56.010 --> 29:03.230]  Uh, in this ruling, uh, the, uh, judge said the program violates British Columbia's Personal Information Protection Act.
[29:03.810 --> 29:04.090]  Wow.
[29:04.250 --> 29:05.050]  That sounds kind of cool.
[29:05.630 --> 29:12.590]  Um, so basically a patron, um, complained that they had to turn over, uh, a driver's license for scanning or be refused entry to the club.
[29:12.830 --> 29:15.190]  I guess here in New York, we're, we're used to that kind of thing.
[29:15.330 --> 29:17.490]  And, uh, we've learned not to even question it.
[29:17.650 --> 29:17.990]  Red Hack.
[29:18.290 --> 29:26.830]  Well, uh, in terms of New York, this kind of, I think, I don't think that usually they scan the, the, um, more detailed portion of the, of the license.
[29:27.450 --> 29:27.810]  Sometimes.
[29:27.970 --> 29:28.650]  They do sometimes.
[29:28.890 --> 29:29.010]  Right.
[29:29.190 --> 29:34.530]  But usually, usually they just scan the barcode portion, which just encodes the date of birth if they're scan, if they're using a scanner.
[29:35.170 --> 29:44.530]  Um, and second of all, in terms of it just being one club, I mean, if they, if one club loses the suit, I think all the rest of them are going to, you know, switch to whatever simpler software.
[29:45.110 --> 30:01.310]  I thought the interesting thing here was this Personal Information Protection Act, um, that, uh, Canada seems to have is it was, which basically the, the, what it says in the article is that no ID can be used, um, or no, uh, no more personal information that is needed can be used by a,
[30:01.430 --> 30:02.550]  uh, company that you're working
[30:06.590 --> 30:06.710]  please.
[30:06.870 --> 30:11.810]  But I, I, I think there'd be so many companies that would be against that because so many companies do just gather up whatever they possibly can.
[30:12.310 --> 30:19.030]  Um, so I just thought that was, um, a surprising thing that Canada had that on the books, not totally considering they also have healthcare, like Mike said, but.
[30:20.390 --> 30:20.750]  Interesting.
[30:21.470 --> 30:21.650]  Okay.
[30:21.810 --> 30:26.730]  And now we move into, uh, the, uh, part of the program where we have a, a special guest joining us.
[30:26.830 --> 30:29.950]  And this week we have in the studio with us, Dr. James Grimmelman.
[30:30.350 --> 30:31.110]  Welcome to the studio.
[30:31.110 --> 30:32.710]  I only have a fake doctor.
[30:32.870 --> 30:33.950]  It's a law degree.
[30:34.210 --> 30:34.450]  Really?
[30:34.750 --> 30:34.990]  Okay.
[30:35.170 --> 30:36.610]  Well, we'll, we'll count that here.
[30:36.730 --> 30:37.170]  We'll count that here.
[30:37.330 --> 30:42.570]  Apologies for all the, uh, the crampness of this tiny studio and, uh, all the wetness of the people arriving.
[30:43.030 --> 30:49.350]  Uh, now you've been involved in this, um, this latest, um, um, Google books, uh, settlement.
[30:49.490 --> 30:52.630]  Well, you, you, you filed an amicus brief, I believe, or you're about to file one.
[30:53.150 --> 31:03.630]  Uh, first of all, tell us something about what, uh, what this whole Google books thing is, uh, the, the origins of it, uh, the settlement that they're trying to reach, what the controversy is, how it affects our listeners.
[31:03.910 --> 31:11.010]  So this all goes back to 2005 when Google announced a partnership with a bunch of university libraries.
[31:11.370 --> 31:13.870]  Basically, the libraries would open up their stacks to Google.
[31:13.970 --> 31:19.230]  They'd go in with their book scanning machines and make digital copies of pretty much everything in the collection.
[31:19.610 --> 31:24.550]  And the idea back then was that just Google would make it searchable the same way it makes web pages searchable.
[31:24.550 --> 31:35.590]  You'd go and run a search on Google, you'd find out what books had your term, and then it would tell you, okay, here's the title, here's where it, when it was published, here's a couple of sentences before and after your search term.
[31:36.030 --> 31:41.090]  And Google was into this because it basically makes you want to use Google, they'll sell some ads against it, it's a search product.
[31:42.570 --> 31:58.110]  And a bunch of authors and publishers, in the really possessive way that most copyright owners have, decided, you know, you can't do this, you can't make money offering a useful service that in some way tangentially connected to our product without paying us a part of it.
[31:58.730 --> 32:09.030]  So they sued Google, and this gigantic class action lawsuit on behalf of everybody whose books were in the libraries, and eventually, everybody who's published a book in the US.
[32:09.690 --> 32:14.850]  And then, so they filed this, and it was going to be just the biggest fair use lawsuit pretty much of all time.
[32:15.050 --> 32:17.370]  You're talking about 10, 15 million books here.
[32:17.950 --> 32:21.190]  And Google was claiming a fair use right to make a copy of every single one of them.
[32:22.170 --> 32:22.330]  So...
[32:22.330 --> 32:23.450]  And it is a bit much, isn't it?
[32:23.750 --> 32:28.290]  A fair use to make an entire copy of a book and have it searchable by anybody on the internet.
[32:28.710 --> 32:31.890]  I can see why authors and publishers might be a little concerned with that.
[32:31.990 --> 32:37.010]  Well, I mean, they're upset because it's a big copy, but the use, it's not cutting into anybody actually buying their book to read it.
[32:37.170 --> 32:37.410]  Right.
[32:37.410 --> 32:43.710]  I mean, I think the idea is that it would show you where the terms were, but it wouldn't be like full copies available.
[32:43.710 --> 32:49.210]  I mean, they do put full copies on the internet, but that's usually things where the copyright is expired, so...
[32:49.210 --> 32:52.450]  Would you be able to use this to go page to page and read the entire thing?
[32:52.590 --> 32:52.830]  No.
[32:52.930 --> 32:54.490]  What happened is you could start doing that.
[32:54.570 --> 33:00.450]  You can, you know, find one page and read part of it, and then maybe you could search for the words at the very end of that, again, liner segment.
[33:00.790 --> 33:03.870]  But even back then, Google would cut you off after a few pages.
[33:03.950 --> 33:04.090]  Okay.
[33:04.210 --> 33:04.430]  All right.
[33:04.530 --> 33:05.890]  This can be done on Amazon, too, actually.
[33:06.190 --> 33:06.730]  Yeah, I was going to say, Amazon.
[33:06.830 --> 33:09.650]  I end up reading whole books this way for school sometimes, basically.
[33:10.170 --> 33:17.010]  If I'm looking for a particular topic, I find it in the chapter heading, find a page, page, and I go two or three pages in, and it's like, oh, this page isn't included in this reading.
[33:17.130 --> 33:17.790]  I'm like, well, fine.
[33:17.870 --> 33:19.290]  What's a term that appears on the last page?
[33:19.310 --> 33:22.230]  If I do a search, I bet it appears on the next page, too, and it usually does.
[33:22.630 --> 33:25.570]  So you can go through and read, you know, full books that way.
[33:25.630 --> 33:26.610]  There's really no...
[33:26.610 --> 33:29.110]  And avoid paying the writers and the publishers.
[33:29.910 --> 33:30.190]  Interesting.
[33:31.190 --> 33:33.750]  Yeah, as a published author, I should maybe be concerned about that.
[33:33.850 --> 33:42.590]  Yes, well, so this obviously was a concern of many writers and many publishers and companies and things like that, so...
[33:42.590 --> 33:48.330]  And so what happened is between 2006 and 2008, no one heard anything from the whole case.
[33:48.470 --> 33:49.490]  It was just completely silent.
[33:49.750 --> 33:53.030]  There were long, long, drawn-out deadlines in the court.
[33:53.230 --> 33:53.910]  Nothing happened.
[33:54.330 --> 34:03.790]  And then in October 2008, everybody came back, and they had a big press conference to announce, hey, this whole time that's been quiet, we've been actually negotiating a settlement.
[34:04.370 --> 34:07.030]  So you think this is an ordinarily very normal thing.
[34:07.130 --> 34:08.010]  People have a big dispute.
[34:08.150 --> 34:08.910]  They settle it.
[34:12.590 --> 34:12.890]  Fine.
[34:13.290 --> 34:19.250]  We'll take out books from people who really object and tell us they don't want to be in it, and maybe we'll send you part of the ad revenue.
[34:19.490 --> 34:21.730]  So you could have predicted that part of the deal.
[34:22.110 --> 34:30.870]  The part that was a big surprise was that they announced not only is Google going to keep on scanning and searching books, they're going to start selling them too.
[34:32.850 --> 34:35.310]  So Google's going to start selling books.
[34:35.530 --> 34:35.910]  E-books?
[34:36.210 --> 34:36.610]  Yeah.
[34:36.690 --> 34:36.810]  Yeah.
[34:37.070 --> 34:37.670]  Electronic copy.
[34:37.730 --> 34:40.650]  And eventually, they're hoping to expand into print-on-demand.
[34:40.870 --> 34:41.550]  All right.
[34:41.550 --> 34:46.150]  So now what kind of compensation do writers and publishers get for them doing that?
[34:46.490 --> 34:50.430]  What happens is they're going to get a 63-37 split.
[34:50.750 --> 34:54.990]  Google will take 30% plus another 10% off the rest for 37%.
[34:54.990 --> 35:02.370]  And then the publisher and author will split the 63 based upon whatever their contract gave for who gets the rights.
[35:02.690 --> 35:02.790]  Okay.
[35:02.830 --> 35:03.810]  Do you think this is a good settlement?
[35:04.430 --> 35:07.370]  For that part of it, it's actually a reasonably good deal.
[35:08.130 --> 35:17.410]  It's kind of a strange way to bring a lot of books to the public, but if you believe in the copyright system at all, then this is a pretty good answer.
[35:17.670 --> 35:25.490]  You have an intermediary who's providing service to the public, they get access to content, and the people who created it and brought it to you get paid for it.
[35:26.230 --> 35:31.650]  And it's actually a pretty clever way of using the lawsuit, getting everybody in the room.
[35:31.770 --> 35:34.490]  You don't have people who just forgot to sign up.
[35:34.490 --> 35:37.510]  You just say, we can launch with 5 million titles.
[35:38.630 --> 35:38.870]  Interesting.
[35:39.090 --> 35:39.250]  Okay.
[35:39.710 --> 35:50.150]  So now, you're filing this brief to challenge parts of this proposed settlement and hopefully get it changed before it actually goes into effect.
[35:50.150 --> 35:52.050]  Now, what are the parts that you have issues with?
[35:52.270 --> 35:53.950]  So, I'll start with...
[35:53.950 --> 35:55.350]  There's a privacy of concerns.
[35:55.650 --> 35:56.350]  Privacy concerns.
[35:56.530 --> 35:56.770]  Yeah.
[35:56.930 --> 35:57.070]  Okay.
[35:57.170 --> 36:09.810]  And this has also been raised by the EFF and the Center for Democracy and Technology have been pointing out, you know, if you're going to be reading books, that's actually pretty sensitive stuff.
[36:11.190 --> 36:15.630]  So, you've got to buy a book on how to quit your drinking habit.
[36:17.030 --> 36:19.790]  And people might have some interest in the fact that you bought that.
[36:20.410 --> 36:23.770]  Librarians and bookstores have fought government requests for the books you're reading.
[36:24.310 --> 36:27.710]  And so, they want to make sure that Google will have those same principles.
[36:27.970 --> 36:30.850]  They won't tell the feds what you've been reading.
[36:30.850 --> 36:39.630]  Yeah, but maybe you will through your Gmail account, and maybe if a coach asks you for the password to that, they'll see all the information of what you bought, and it'll all be just out there.
[36:39.830 --> 36:46.350]  That's one of the things they're actually asking for, is for Google not to link what pages you've read to the rest of any Google account you have.
[36:47.010 --> 36:53.030]  Or let you give away books so that you buy a copy, and then you can give it to somebody else and not have it traced back to you.
[36:53.150 --> 36:53.470]  Mm-hmm.
[36:54.330 --> 36:57.250]  Yeah, and it seems like that's very easy for them to do at the moment.
[36:57.250 --> 37:01.750]  So, obviously, yeah, privacy concerns, definitely something that needs to be addressed.
[37:02.130 --> 37:06.490]  But there's sort of bigger concerns as well, there are sort of more structural concerns.
[37:06.590 --> 37:07.510]  What are your other concerns?
[37:07.750 --> 37:15.490]  Yeah, so I've got this structural worry that this could result in Google winding up with a monopoly over the universe of books.
[37:15.910 --> 37:21.710]  And the reason that could happen is that there's a class of books, and no one's sure exactly how many there are.
[37:21.810 --> 37:23.170]  They're called Orphan Works.
[37:23.450 --> 37:24.410]  Orphan Works.
[37:24.690 --> 37:26.310]  And what exactly is an Orphan Work?
[37:26.310 --> 37:31.690]  It's a book that's still in copyright, but no one can find the copyright on it.
[37:32.190 --> 37:42.030]  And this is a problem when you have life plus 70, because somebody dies, and then their kids die, and the copyright's still in the family, but it's been two generations, and no one knows who owns it.
[37:42.270 --> 37:42.610]  Okay.
[37:42.610 --> 37:47.450]  Or the publisher goes out of business, and somebody buys the printing presses, and oh, you bought some copyrights with that too.
[37:48.030 --> 37:57.010]  So we've got 500,000 at a low end, maybe 5 million at the high end, and did these books that no one knows where the rights are.
[37:57.510 --> 38:06.850]  So the settlement gives Google the ability to start putting them up online and selling copies, and hanging on to the money in case these folks ever show up.
[38:07.570 --> 38:15.590]  Which, you know, that's a good thing in terms of access, but it also means that Google is now the only bookstore in the world where you can buy new copies of them.
[38:16.130 --> 38:31.150]  And if that's a large fraction of books out there, it means they have this huge edge, they've got this catalog that no one else can touch, and they essentially got it by getting a court to give it to them, rather than going back and actually negotiating it the way we normally think copyright's supposed to work.
[38:31.150 --> 38:42.190]  Now, presumably, the parties to this lawsuit, Google on one side, and publishers who can be found on the other, how did the rights of these orphan works get into it?
[38:42.750 --> 38:45.070]  Yeah, so that's the magic of a class action.
[38:45.370 --> 39:00.590]  You know, if it turns out that millions of consumers bought Airborns because they falsely said they'd cure your cold, when in fact there's no evidence they'd do anything for you, then you file a class action lawsuit, and it's really only a few actual people come forward and say,
[39:00.890 --> 39:02.270]  hi, I actually bought it.
[39:03.250 --> 39:15.850]  But, they say, you have records indicating you sold 10 million copies, so I'm filing a suit on behalf of all of us, and now you get this thing in the mail, if you've ever bought Airborns, write in, and we'll send you a $5 rebate.
[39:16.150 --> 39:17.450]  It's the same idea here.
[39:18.210 --> 39:24.070]  Every author or copyright owner, or everyone who might be an author in the world, is a part of the class.
[39:24.570 --> 39:30.550]  And they get asked, if you own a copyright, step forward and give us your name, and we'll give you your share of the money.
[39:31.290 --> 39:33.510]  And if you don't, then you just lose out.
[39:33.650 --> 39:43.310]  You just lose out, and after a few years, your share of the revenue gets devoted to pay the registry's expenses and get sent to other copyright owners.
[39:43.570 --> 39:49.090]  So people who did show up actually grab some money that was, in a sense, earned by people who didn't.
[39:49.390 --> 39:54.850]  How much of an effort are they making to track down the authors of these orphan works?
[39:54.850 --> 39:55.850]  Is it...
[39:55.850 --> 40:07.190]  I mean, a few years ago, I saw a list of musicians that I think the RIA was allegedly trying to track down, and these were pretty famous people that, for some reason, they couldn't find.
[40:07.910 --> 40:11.630]  So it led a lot of people to suspect that they weren't really trying all that hard.
[40:12.050 --> 40:14.250]  So if you ask them, they'll say they're trying really hard.
[40:14.490 --> 40:21.650]  They'll say, we've spent I don't know how many million on notifying people about this, and we'll spend more in the future.
[40:22.150 --> 40:26.170]  But there have also been indications that this hasn't been entirely effective.
[40:26.730 --> 40:31.590]  Especially in other countries, there are complaints that the translations of the notice weren't very good.
[40:31.770 --> 40:35.870]  People didn't really find out about it until months after they started trying to do anything.
[40:36.210 --> 40:40.490]  And you still have authors who are coming out and saying, what on earth is going on?
[40:40.530 --> 40:41.890]  I had no idea they were doing this.
[40:43.010 --> 40:43.910]  Two things.
[40:44.130 --> 40:55.310]  If Google is the only one that's providing access to these orphan works, aren't they providing a vital service, you know, access to information you otherwise wouldn't have access to?
[40:55.710 --> 41:10.890]  And the other thing that I was wondering about is, I heard something about trying to stop Google from, say, having access through any of your Google accounts to what books you might have been reading or buying off of Google.
[41:11.050 --> 41:16.670]  And that seems to be one of the main drawing features that Google tries to use for their accounts.
[41:16.670 --> 41:24.270]  The fact that searches you do and other stuff you do, you can search yourself and get back useful information from your own activities.
[41:25.210 --> 41:28.110]  And I'm curious to see how that might play out.
[41:28.310 --> 41:31.650]  So in terms of the public service, I think you're exactly right.
[41:31.830 --> 41:43.570]  This is a great way of taking books that have been lost and using digitization to bring them back to the world, which is why a lot of people who have concerns about the settlement aren't trying to blow it up.
[41:43.690 --> 41:56.890]  We're just trying to get provisions put in such that if somebody else wants to start scanning books and the Internet Archive has expressed a lot of interest in doing stuff like that, that they can get the same kind of deal so that it's not an exclusive thing,
[41:57.010 --> 42:00.770]  but we have actual legitimate competition and diversity of approaches.
[42:00.770 --> 42:04.170]  Does this settlement indicate that it would be an exclusive for Google?
[42:04.670 --> 42:07.470]  It's not exclusive in theory.
[42:07.690 --> 42:11.970]  That is, anybody else can negotiate rights with authors to do the same thing.
[42:12.310 --> 42:17.850]  But for all those orphan works where you can't find the author, it's exclusive in practice because who are you going to negotiate with?
[42:18.490 --> 42:23.950]  But again, if you can't find them ordinarily, at least you're preserving the works.
[42:23.950 --> 42:29.910]  I guess there is that public service that at least something is being saved that might be lost.
[42:30.350 --> 42:36.810]  That's to some extent true, although they're scanning books from the collections of libraries that are doing a pretty good job preserving things already.
[42:37.290 --> 42:38.590]  And if you ask the library...
[42:39.010 --> 42:39.450]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[42:39.530 --> 42:39.730]  I'm sorry.
[42:39.970 --> 42:40.590]  I'm sorry.
[42:40.730 --> 42:41.950]  James, I just had a question.
[42:42.170 --> 42:43.210]  Actually, two questions.
[42:43.970 --> 42:49.530]  What if there's orphan works that Google would not want to provide?
[42:49.790 --> 42:52.690]  It wouldn't really be censorship since it's not the government per se.
[42:52.690 --> 43:03.370]  But what about public accessing orphan works after this agreement is signed that Google doesn't want to make available because it's just too hot potato a title?
[43:03.530 --> 43:20.610]  And then also, how will this agreement with Google affect the distribution of popular books that are no longer copyrighted, like Macbeth by William Shakespeare, for instance?
[43:20.610 --> 43:30.370]  So on the first part about books Google doesn't want to provide, the settlement specifically says they have a right not to provide any book they don't want to.
[43:30.770 --> 43:42.530]  But it has a provision that countervails against that, which says if they delete a book because they don't like the content, they have to basically tell the people whose book it is about this.
[43:42.790 --> 43:47.490]  And I was at a conference in the spring where I asked the Google representative about those terms.
[43:47.490 --> 43:53.750]  And he said, they would also commit to making public which books it is that they're not making available.
[43:53.910 --> 44:02.650]  I'd like to start a website that just covers books that Google rejects, and then just do the same thing they're doing except for unpopular titles.
[44:03.210 --> 44:04.290]  I think I'd make a fortune.
[44:04.470 --> 44:04.790]  Go ahead, Mike.
[44:04.870 --> 44:05.550]  I'm just curious.
[44:06.150 --> 44:10.070]  I'm glad that the Google representative verbally committed to you that they would make this list.
[44:10.190 --> 44:12.650]  But is it in the terms of the deal?
[44:12.750 --> 44:15.810]  Or is it just something they've said, yeah, we'll do until we forget about it?
[44:15.990 --> 44:18.450]  It's something they've said, but it's on tape.
[44:18.470 --> 44:23.350]  So you can go back to there and you can see, you know, their lead lawyer on the case promising this.
[44:23.770 --> 44:24.810]  So it's a reputation.
[44:25.010 --> 44:28.150]  If they back away from this, you can shame them pretty well over it.
[44:28.350 --> 44:28.810]  All right.
[44:28.870 --> 44:33.650]  So we're talking with James Grimmelman, who's a professor at NYU... I'm sorry, at New York Law School.
[44:34.370 --> 44:37.730]  And we'll be taking phone calls 212-209-2900.
[44:37.910 --> 44:41.250]  As far as the actual settlement, what are we looking at time frame-wise?
[44:41.670 --> 44:47.330]  So people are going to be filing things to the court, telling it, approve it, don't approve it, so on until September.
[44:47.710 --> 44:49.510]  And then there's a hearing in October.
[44:49.730 --> 44:53.130]  And who knows how long it'll take for the court to decide after that.
[44:53.470 --> 44:54.730]  Probably a while, I guess.
[44:55.390 --> 44:56.190]  What about Macbeth?
[44:56.790 --> 44:57.130]  Oh, yeah.
[44:57.170 --> 45:03.630]  The Macbeth thing, Google is free to just make a PDF copy of it on their site and give it to you right away.
[45:04.390 --> 45:10.810]  I was going to say, in terms of the books that they choose not to index, you know, it doesn't mean that they're completely inaccessible.
[45:11.070 --> 45:15.250]  You know, if you find a university library that has it, Gus wants to...
[45:15.250 --> 45:17.450]  Yeah, I mean, that's a serious issue for me.
[45:17.610 --> 45:22.930]  I got somehow acquainted last summer with what university libraries do and what any library does.
[45:23.350 --> 45:26.250]  Libraries have a process called deaccessioning, where they just throw books out.
[45:26.370 --> 45:28.310]  And sometimes they do it in good ways, sometimes they don't.
[45:28.870 --> 45:38.230]  But I've had librarians tell me, well, you know, we don't want to give these books that we're throwing away away to people, because if we do, they'll probably come back to us at one point.
[45:38.350 --> 45:39.390]  We want them to just go away.
[45:39.390 --> 45:42.290]  So we see libraries dumpstering books in this deaccessioning process.
[45:42.450 --> 45:44.050]  The books will come back to them or the people will come back to them?
[45:44.050 --> 45:45.870]  Yeah, no, the books will come back to them, like boomerangs.
[45:45.990 --> 45:47.490]  You throw them and then they come back and hit you in the face.
[45:47.510 --> 45:49.370]  Is that really a bad thing for a library to have a book come to them?
[45:49.370 --> 45:50.710]  Well, you know, they have to manage the collection.
[45:50.830 --> 45:52.190]  They have to fit in New York City, especially.
[45:52.410 --> 45:56.390]  Like, you know, if you have a large collection and you have a small space, space is expensive in the city.
[45:56.550 --> 45:57.830]  So that's a big issue.
[45:57.830 --> 46:04.450]  And when I was seeing books being deaccessioned, I'm not sure how much I should talk about this.
[46:06.910 --> 46:10.210]  Libraries keep records of what books they have and which they don't.
[46:10.330 --> 46:22.390]  And depending on how well a library manages their collection, they may not have certain books in a... they may not have certain books on in their copy.
[46:23.570 --> 46:29.330]  So, if they don't have a record of a book, but they see the book is there, they may throw that book out.
[46:29.770 --> 46:30.130]  Okay.
[46:30.310 --> 46:33.510]  So, they may just be throwing books out without even knowing what they are.
[46:33.650 --> 46:36.470]  And those might include very, very old books, hypothetically.
[46:37.230 --> 46:49.430]  So, my guess is that especially with Orphan Works, where nobody really knows, you know, there's not that much of a context for where they belong and nobody knows where they fit in the grand scheme of human ideas yet, it's possible they could just disappear out of library collection.
[46:49.430 --> 46:53.430]  And then Google owns the last copy, essentially, at that point in time.
[46:54.530 --> 46:57.130]  So, I think that would be... I think that might be a concern.
[46:57.330 --> 47:09.850]  The other thing libraries are afraid of with this is that once this amazing Google product is available, how much will their funding sources say, why are we supporting you with all these expensive shelves when you get the same thing on Google?
[47:10.690 --> 47:11.050]  Interesting.
[47:11.290 --> 47:11.510]  That's a concern.
[47:11.750 --> 47:16.190]  As a parallel to what publishers are facing in bookstores and all kinds of other places.
[47:16.990 --> 47:20.150]  If it's digitally represented, then why have a real copy?
[47:21.010 --> 47:27.750]  I think, actually, one of the coolest things about what's going on with the Amicus brief that James is filing is the way you're getting input on it.
[47:27.770 --> 47:30.990]  You want to talk a little bit about that and sort of talk about that for a little?
[47:31.090 --> 47:33.630]  And again, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[47:33.970 --> 47:36.910]  We're going to take some phone calls, but address that issue and we'll get to the phones.
[47:36.910 --> 47:40.310]  Yeah, we put it up on a wiki and we're effectively open sourcing it.
[47:40.550 --> 47:48.770]  So, from now until late August, come on to thepublicindex.org, go to our wiki, and you can edit our Amicus brief.
[47:49.190 --> 47:55.070]  At the end of the summer, we'll take all of your changes and suggestions and roll them into the version that we file.
[47:55.190 --> 47:56.110]  Assuming you agree with them.
[47:56.450 --> 48:01.230]  Well, if we don't agree with them, we really want you to go and file your own Amicus brief.
[48:01.390 --> 48:04.710]  Use it to brainstorm and develop your own fork and bring that in.
[48:04.810 --> 48:05.990]  And what's the address to do this?
[48:05.990 --> 48:07.890]  It's thepublicindex.org.
[48:08.370 --> 48:09.150]  Thepublicindex.org.
[48:09.270 --> 48:10.090]  Okay, let's take a phone call.
[48:10.190 --> 48:12.410]  212-209-2900.
[48:13.290 --> 48:14.650]  Let's see if this phone actually works.
[48:14.830 --> 48:15.150]  Good evening.
[48:15.150 --> 48:16.390]  You're on off the hook.
[48:16.930 --> 48:17.870]  Hey, it's Voltaire.
[48:18.750 --> 48:19.150]  Voltaire!
[48:19.150 --> 48:19.730]  Yes.
[48:20.030 --> 48:23.510]  Forgive me for not being there in the studio, but I'm driving down the way.
[48:23.710 --> 48:51.350]  I had a question about basically how if we can see now that like the most important issue is having like a copyright system that's so long, like plus 70, how can we have a system that, like how can we advocate for a system that doesn't, or that's bigger than just fixing the Google books issue and being able to like actually,
[48:51.390 --> 48:55.350]  like not have this orphan works be such an issue.
[48:56.130 --> 48:59.450]  One piece of this is orphan works legislation.
[49:00.170 --> 49:06.450]  People introduced last session in Congress a bill that would have enabled a bunch of uses.
[49:06.450 --> 49:14.070]  If you can't find the author, you can't find the copyright owner, you can, after a diligent search, go ahead and make various uses of the work.
[49:14.390 --> 49:22.790]  And if they show up, you can't get hit with all the really heavy hammers like statutory damages and that stuff that copyright law has.
[49:23.310 --> 49:30.770]  So actually, basically, there is some possibility for actual reform in the copyright system around orphan works.
[49:30.770 --> 49:37.050]  Even the big content lobbies acknowledge that that part is somewhat broken and needs some fixing.
[49:37.990 --> 49:38.970]  How can we...
[49:38.970 --> 49:41.610]  Is there like a website we go to to help advocate for this issue?
[49:43.750 --> 49:54.070]  There's not a centralized orphan works like public advocacy site, but the people at public knowledge have been very good leaders on the issue.
[49:54.210 --> 49:58.030]  They have great resources and connections on ways you can get involved.
[49:58.130 --> 49:59.510]  And who are these people at public knowledge?
[49:59.510 --> 50:03.210]  They are just one of the good guy groups in Washington.
[50:03.950 --> 50:05.090]  They work a lot...
[50:05.090 --> 50:06.330]  So they do exist, the good guy groups.
[50:06.450 --> 50:07.010]  I've heard rumors.
[50:07.450 --> 50:08.930]  Yeah, they're underfunded.
[50:09.110 --> 50:09.550]  They're tiny.
[50:09.770 --> 50:11.830]  But the people who work there are incredibly dedicated.
[50:12.450 --> 50:12.690]  Okay.
[50:13.010 --> 50:13.490]  All right, Voltaire.
[50:13.570 --> 50:14.250]  Thanks for that call.
[50:14.650 --> 50:15.550]  I never get through.
[50:15.710 --> 50:16.430]  I never get through.
[50:17.050 --> 50:18.890]  Yeah, well, you gotta keep dialing.
[50:18.970 --> 50:19.950]  You gotta hit the redial button.
[50:20.310 --> 50:21.390]  I gotta hit this off button.
[50:22.210 --> 50:24.330]  212-209-2900 is our telephone.
[50:24.410 --> 50:24.770]  Good evening.
[50:24.870 --> 50:25.490]  You're on off the hook.
[50:25.950 --> 50:27.430]  Let me just lower my radio.
[50:27.450 --> 50:28.130]  Yes, lower your radio.
[50:28.130 --> 50:28.230]  Yeah.
[50:28.490 --> 50:32.790]  And let me just say, last week, a caller called about Verizon.
[50:32.790 --> 50:35.990]  What if Verizon's internet went down?
[50:35.990 --> 50:38.170]  I have a question.
[50:39.250 --> 50:43.570]  You know, a few days ago, I was walking down the street, and I saw one of these...
[50:43.570 --> 50:45.170]  Let's make this fast, though, because it's kind of off topic.
[50:45.250 --> 50:45.410]  Go ahead.
[50:45.690 --> 50:49.750]  I saw this guy working on a streetlight box.
[50:49.750 --> 50:53.710]  You know, these green boxes attached to poles where the streetlights are.
[50:53.830 --> 50:56.390]  He was cleaning it out, and there was an antenna on top.
[50:56.530 --> 50:57.490]  I'm a ham operator.
[50:57.710 --> 50:58.930]  So I said, what is this?
[50:59.050 --> 51:11.750]  And he said, well, Verizon used to have the contract for all of the city traffic lights for the maintenance, and they've just lost the contract, and the city went to a cellular system.
[51:11.750 --> 51:25.390]  So what I have to ask is, what if Verizon just suddenly went out of business one day because, you know, they just said, hey, we're not in profit, and everybody can drop dead, and we're going out of business?
[51:25.390 --> 51:26.710]  Could that happen?
[51:26.890 --> 51:33.330]  I've dreamed about that, and I'm going to ask Bernie to address that issue, and please listen to the radio for the answer.
[51:33.450 --> 51:34.110]  Bernie, go ahead.
[51:34.570 --> 51:43.790]  Well, I think some other telecom carrier would get rapidly in line to buy up Verizon because it's a cash cow, and Verizon will never go out of business.
[51:43.950 --> 51:54.570]  It may change its name to another silly name like it did when it changed from 9X or Bell Atlantic to Verizon, but it will always be there in some way, shape, or form, or be purchased by somebody else.
[51:54.570 --> 51:55.630]  It won't just disappear.
[51:55.950 --> 52:01.250]  And, you know, Bell Atlantic still exists in some areas.
[52:01.330 --> 52:07.590]  For instance, if I call somebody and I get a busy signal, I get that recording, and it says, the number you have called is busy.
[52:08.230 --> 52:12.750]  If you would like, press this button, and Bell Atlantic will keep trying and call you back when the line is free.
[52:12.810 --> 52:13.970]  They never change the recording.
[52:13.970 --> 52:15.070]  It still says Bell Atlantic.
[52:15.230 --> 52:20.390]  You can also go to various pay phones and see 9X stickers and maybe even a New York telephone one.
[52:20.470 --> 52:22.630]  They never stop existing in some form.
[52:22.630 --> 52:27.750]  For the last couple of years, I lived next to a local telephone office, just an equipment shed.
[52:27.850 --> 52:29.910]  It still had Bell Atlantic signs out on the fence.
[52:30.070 --> 52:31.390]  Yeah, they take their time.
[52:31.650 --> 52:33.210]  What if I want to send a telegram?
[52:33.750 --> 52:34.370]  Go ahead.
[52:34.870 --> 52:36.730]  You have my support on that.
[52:36.890 --> 52:39.610]  I have your support, but I have no national telegram network.
[52:39.610 --> 52:39.990]  That's true.
[52:40.150 --> 52:42.150]  Folks, we're almost out of time, unbelievably enough.
[52:42.410 --> 52:43.730]  The hour has gone really quickly.
[52:43.870 --> 52:55.310]  So I'm going to ask you, James Groomman, to give us any final thoughts on what people can do, why people should care, and any pertinent websites, email addresses, things like that.
[52:55.450 --> 52:58.850]  So I'll direct everybody to our website if you want to learn more.
[52:58.850 --> 53:00.910]  It's thepublicindex.org.
[53:01.130 --> 53:11.470]  And we've got a pretty comprehensive collection of stuff related to the settlement, including a whole introduction page of things to read if you want to get up to speed on what it's all about.
[53:11.590 --> 53:12.630]  And YouTube videos as well.
[53:12.810 --> 53:13.110]  I'm sorry.
[53:13.370 --> 53:17.230]  Sorry, I'll link to a good YouTube video section on this as well.
[53:18.070 --> 53:18.390]  Okay.
[53:19.150 --> 53:24.150]  Now, Redhack, interesting thing that you discovered as part of our musical outro tonight.
[53:25.390 --> 53:29.110]  You want to tell us what it was you found and why this is something that we're going to apply to it?
[53:29.110 --> 53:30.450]  I discovered it through other sources.
[53:31.890 --> 53:33.550]  But no, I don't want to talk about it.
[53:33.590 --> 53:34.730]  Why don't we just play it?
[53:34.930 --> 53:36.730]  Well, we have to say who it is, don't we?
[53:37.050 --> 53:39.070]  Well, people can email us and ask.
[53:39.070 --> 53:40.770]  The vocals are our own Rob T.
[53:40.910 --> 53:42.430]  Firefly, who is not here right now.
[53:42.490 --> 53:44.010]  And I had no idea he had such a great voice.
[53:44.010 --> 53:49.150]  Yeah, and it was written by Redbox Chili Pepper and apparently is making its way around the internet.
[53:50.010 --> 53:53.050]  It's an interesting melody, fascinating song.
[53:53.190 --> 53:53.830]  Listen to the lyrics.
[53:54.030 --> 53:54.710]  We'll see you next week.
[53:54.810 --> 53:56.590]  OTH at 2600.com.
[53:57.450 --> 53:58.630]  That's our email address.
[53:58.910 --> 53:59.630]  Have a good night.
[53:59.770 --> 54:01.010]  Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show.
[54:01.210 --> 54:01.610]  Good night.
[54:12.300 --> 54:15.230]  Bell control to lineman bomb.
[54:19.170 --> 54:22.050]  Bell control to lineman bomb.
[54:25.470 --> 54:30.870]  Check your tool belt now and put your bell hat on.
[54:32.890 --> 54:35.670]  Bell control to lineman bomb.
[54:39.680 --> 54:42.780]  Found my truck keys, engine pawn.
[54:46.520 --> 54:51.500]  Get your work orders and please don't take too long.
[55:01.310 --> 55:06.690]  This is bell control to lineman bomb.
[55:07.410 --> 55:10.330]  You've really screwed up good.
[55:11.710 --> 55:17.190]  The technician wants to know the cable and pair.
[55:18.570 --> 55:23.830]  Now it's time to leave your bell truck if you dare.
[55:26.210 --> 55:30.470]  This is lineman bomb to bell control.
[55:31.270 --> 55:34.150]  I'm climbing up a pole.
[55:35.750 --> 55:41.230]  And there's spray paint on this box that says PLA.
[55:42.590 --> 55:47.570]  And these wires look oddly different today.
[55:50.210 --> 55:56.390]  For here am I standing on a foam pole.
[55:58.350 --> 56:01.790]  Far above the ground.
[56:03.850 --> 56:10.330]  I just dropped my shoe, but there's not much I can do.
[56:16.290 --> 56:17.200]  We're sorry.
[56:17.420 --> 56:20.140]  The number you are trying to reach is being checked or dropped.
[56:22.640 --> 56:23.560]  We're sorry.
[56:23.830 --> 56:27.850]  Due to telephone companies, your call cannot be completed at this time.
[56:32.660 --> 56:34.040]  You try your call again later.
[56:36.980 --> 56:37.820]  We'll leave.
[56:38.040 --> 56:39.280]  Try your call again later.
[56:40.680 --> 56:41.800]  We'll leave.
[56:41.820 --> 56:44.460]  Try your call again later.
[56:44.460 --> 56:48.060]  I'm getting really bored.
[56:49.620 --> 56:54.720]  And I think my conscience knows which way to go.
[56:56.620 --> 57:02.480]  Who's this guy that's on my phone saying yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo?
[57:11.160 --> 57:13.320]  Where's the light bulb?
[57:23.020 --> 57:27.080]  Am I standing on my phone pole?
[57:28.380 --> 57:32.820]  Oh, far above the ground.
[57:34.980 --> 57:41.180]  I just dropped my shoe, but there's not much I can do.
[57:59.440 --> 58:00.560]  Oh, right.
[58:00.700 --> 58:01.520]  WBAI.
[58:01.700 --> 58:02.140]  Hey, you know.