[00:00.000 --> 00:02.200]  And the time is just about 7pm.
[00:02.200 --> 00:06.540]  You're listening to WBAI New York, and it's time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[00:12.210 --> 00:16.590]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:17.650 --> 00:22.090]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:22.830 --> 00:24.910]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:27.670 --> 00:30.350]  Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[00:31.050 --> 00:32.850]  I hope that's understood.
[00:33.150 --> 00:33.850]  Bum-diddly-bum!
[01:03.120 --> 01:04.560]  And a very good evening to you.
[01:04.660 --> 01:05.460]  The show is Off the Hook.
[01:05.600 --> 01:05.980]  Rob T.
[01:06.120 --> 01:06.900]  Firefly here with you.
[01:07.040 --> 01:09.020]  I'm joined in the studio today by Dot Red.
[01:09.280 --> 01:09.720]  Hello.
[01:10.360 --> 01:11.080]  I'm Voltaire.
[01:11.380 --> 01:11.860]  Oh, hi.
[01:12.480 --> 01:13.140]  Jim is here.
[01:13.320 --> 01:13.620]  Hi.
[01:14.180 --> 01:14.840]  And Mike.
[01:15.160 --> 01:15.800]  How are you?
[01:16.400 --> 01:18.220]  And I believe we have someone on the phone.
[01:19.680 --> 01:20.040]  Yes.
[01:20.200 --> 01:21.060]  Was that really Voltaire?
[01:21.180 --> 01:21.660]  He sounded different.
[01:22.000 --> 01:24.460]  I was trying to do a Gus impersonation, but it didn't turn out so well.
[01:25.320 --> 01:26.580]  It turned out really well, actually.
[01:27.300 --> 01:27.660]  Wow.
[01:27.800 --> 01:28.000]  Okay.
[01:28.120 --> 01:28.980]  Yeah, this is Emmanuel.
[01:29.180 --> 01:30.940]  I'm over here in Glasgow, Scotland.
[01:31.900 --> 01:37.120]  And, yeah, it's going to be an unusual show tonight because we're going to be coming to you from all over the world.
[01:37.820 --> 01:39.960]  And we might have some surprises for you as well.
[01:40.320 --> 01:55.140]  But I just came up here today from London, and I came to London from Amsterdam, and I came to Amsterdam from the Hacking at Random conference, which took place pretty much from the last show that we did until late Sunday.
[01:55.540 --> 02:00.900]  And a bunch of us were there, a bunch of us in the studio and a bunch of us who will be on the phone.
[02:01.580 --> 02:06.500]  And we're going to try and get some other people who are also there and who are somewhat close to here.
[02:07.140 --> 02:09.700]  And if that sounds confusing, believe me, I'm confused as well.
[02:09.700 --> 02:16.060]  But we have Red Hacked and Jens, who are also in Scotland, but they're not in Glasgow, where I am.
[02:16.180 --> 02:18.620]  They're on some crazy remote island someplace.
[02:18.900 --> 02:21.460]  Now, do we want to try to call them right away?
[02:21.460 --> 02:22.840]  Do we want to talk about horror first?
[02:22.900 --> 02:24.600]  Do we want to have them on to talk about horror?
[02:24.780 --> 02:25.560]  What do you guys think?
[02:26.500 --> 02:29.620]  I think we can't call them right this second, maybe in a minute.
[02:29.920 --> 02:30.160]  Okay.
[02:30.360 --> 02:30.600]  All right.
[02:30.660 --> 02:30.840]  Fine.
[02:30.940 --> 02:34.820]  Then why don't we go over to...
[02:34.820 --> 02:42.880]  Well, who in the studio feels like talking about Hacking at Random, the conference, the hacker camp that took place in Holland over the last week or so?
[02:43.220 --> 02:44.400]  I guess I can do that.
[02:45.340 --> 03:00.540]  Yeah, it was a really amazing conference, kind of like a Hope conference, except instead of everybody going back to their hotel rooms at, like, whatever time at night, people go back to their tents at whatever time in the morning, and everybody's, like,
[03:01.420 --> 03:02.120]  next to each other.
[03:02.460 --> 03:09.520]  Everything's, like, centralized at night with parties and stuff, and during the day, it's, like, it's just amazing.
[03:09.760 --> 03:13.540]  Like, the technical setup was, like, ten times what we could do in New York.
[03:13.700 --> 03:25.920]  They had, like, their own GSM network, which anybody could connect to, and you could talk to anybody else that was using a Landline or a cell phone in the very least.
[03:26.280 --> 03:29.220]  Well, they actually had competing phone networks at this conference.
[03:29.420 --> 03:33.120]  They had the DEC phone system, which is basically an internal phone system.
[03:33.280 --> 03:44.400]  You get your own handset, and you dial, I think, four-digit extensions, and you get various other people that have similar phones that they either get at that conference or that they have themselves.
[03:44.680 --> 03:48.100]  It uses a totally different frequency than anything we use in the States.
[03:48.100 --> 03:56.720]  And then, after the conference had started, the announcement was made that a mini phone company had been started, known as NL-42.
[03:57.160 --> 04:02.280]  Every GSM company has a number, and this one was known as number 42, appropriately enough.
[04:02.420 --> 04:06.820]  And if you connected to that, you were connected to the internal GSM network.
[04:06.960 --> 04:15.740]  You could dial a five-digit extension and get somebody else, and they could use any GSM phone and simply connect to that network themselves, and you'd be able to reach them.
[04:15.740 --> 04:16.600]  It wouldn't cost anything.
[04:17.120 --> 04:23.740]  It was a little spotty connection-wise, but then again, when you consider what they were doing, what they were attempting to do, it's amazing that it worked at all.
[04:23.880 --> 04:33.740]  So I thought that was incredible that they could pull that off, and I'd like to be able to do something like that in the States someday, but I understand it's very difficult, and probably we have a lot of laws that would prevent it.
[04:33.980 --> 04:34.960]  They also had a...
[04:36.200 --> 04:46.220]  They had lots of different Wi-Fi networks, but one of them was dedicated only to VoIP applications, and so it blocked all the ports that weren't related to VoIP, which I thought was really cool.
[04:46.760 --> 04:47.400]  Yeah, I saw that one.
[04:47.500 --> 04:48.720]  It was called Hard-VoIP.
[04:48.880 --> 04:49.020]  Yeah.
[04:49.020 --> 04:53.900]  And yeah, you could connect to it, but you couldn't do anything with it unless you were doing something involving voice over IP.
[04:54.940 --> 04:57.700]  But basically, let's describe the setup a little bit.
[04:57.800 --> 05:04.220]  Just what... for people that didn't go, and I imagine most people didn't go, and people who maybe haven't been out of the country...
[05:04.220 --> 05:05.820]  People who didn't go were fools.
[05:06.380 --> 05:10.660]  Well, I mean, you know, yeah, maybe some were fools, but a lot of people couldn't go for various reasons.
[05:10.880 --> 05:17.260]  But what we'd like to do is encourage you to start planning for two years from now when the next German hacker camp will take place.
[05:18.260 --> 05:20.180]  And, you know, I met so many people there.
[05:20.340 --> 05:23.040]  We really have so many listeners around the world.
[05:23.240 --> 05:23.780]  It's incredible.
[05:24.020 --> 05:32.820]  And, Volta, I know you were blown away by this, but we just kept running into people that heard us on Off the Hook or that came to the camp because they heard about it on Off the Hook.
[05:33.040 --> 05:38.740]  And it's just great to know that people are out there listening and that, you know, we're making some kind of a difference.
[05:38.800 --> 05:41.260]  A lot of people said they came because they heard about it.
[05:41.660 --> 05:45.320]  And I'm sure they're going to come to all the ones after this as well.
[05:45.900 --> 05:48.980]  And maybe we can encourage more people in the future.
[05:49.140 --> 05:53.560]  Of course, the thing did sell out, so there's a limited number of spaces sometimes.
[05:54.220 --> 05:55.860]  But you really should plan ahead.
[05:57.360 --> 05:58.140]  Yeah, definitely.
[05:59.120 --> 06:02.860]  Although I wouldn't recommend planning for that over Playing for Hope.
[06:02.860 --> 06:05.780]  I think that you should start planning for Hope first.
[06:06.080 --> 06:06.760]  Oh, yeah, of course.
[06:06.880 --> 06:07.720]  Hope is next year.
[06:07.820 --> 06:15.360]  In fact, we made the announcement that the next Hope will be taking place on July 16, 17, and 18 of 2010.
[06:16.120 --> 06:20.100]  So we're going to start planning in earnest for that over the next couple of weeks.
[06:20.200 --> 06:21.040]  So that's going to be a lot of fun.
[06:21.380 --> 06:35.560]  But, Volta, I just wanted to ask you, since this was your first hacker conference outside the United States and your first ever hacker camp, what you felt about meeting all these people, some people who knew us already, some people who didn't know us,
[06:36.240 --> 06:37.780]  was that something that surprised you?
[06:39.080 --> 06:39.960]  I thought...
[06:40.500 --> 06:56.300]  I mean, I knew that there was a big, like, hacker contingent, like, throughout the world, but it was just, like, really surprising to see how, like, these people from different countries and different people that spoke different native languages would come together and,
[06:56.300 --> 07:05.640]  like, just be able to, like, go into conversation with each other, like, naturally and talk about, like, the same things that we talked about.
[07:05.820 --> 07:07.520]  And, I mean, it was just amazing.
[07:07.820 --> 07:15.880]  It didn't matter if you were from Sweden or from Italy or from Holland or Germany or Brazil or Malaysia, we all spoke the same language.
[07:15.980 --> 07:17.900]  And, yeah, well, most of us were speaking English, in fact.
[07:17.900 --> 07:26.220]  What I mean is we all spoke the same language in our enthusiasm of technology and a degree of mischief and just sharing information.
[07:26.680 --> 07:33.740]  And I don't think anyone really felt left out of this, no matter how non-technical you might be or no matter how technical you were.
[07:34.000 --> 07:36.920]  I think there was something for everybody.
[07:37.060 --> 07:39.200]  Everybody was able to have really good conversations.
[07:41.120 --> 07:42.040]  Yeah, definitely.
[07:42.800 --> 07:47.080]  So, Mike, have we made any progress in reaching Jens and Riddhack?
[07:47.280 --> 07:53.820]  Well, I've discovered something, which is that the system we're using does not allow us to call you and them at the same time.
[07:53.820 --> 07:55.720]  So I'm trying alternate systems.
[07:56.340 --> 07:56.740]  Okay.
[07:56.820 --> 08:00.040]  I could have sworn we've done this before, but I could be mistaken.
[08:00.300 --> 08:02.520]  I'm usually not there when things like this happen.
[08:03.560 --> 08:03.960]  Okay.
[08:04.160 --> 08:11.800]  So I guess if you're the one trying this, can we ask you for your recollections of horror or will that take you away from what you're trying to do?
[08:13.000 --> 08:16.180]  It would take me away from what I'm trying to do, but I can be taken away.
[08:16.180 --> 08:16.820]  May I speak for you?
[08:17.420 --> 08:18.200]  Yeah, maybe I'll hear.
[08:18.200 --> 08:18.620]  I speak for Mike.
[08:18.700 --> 08:18.940]  Go ahead.
[08:19.220 --> 08:21.420]  As Mike, I absolutely hated the camp.
[08:21.420 --> 08:22.500]  I had a miserable time.
[08:22.680 --> 08:25.900]  I was cranky the whole time, and I don't recommend it at all.
[08:27.720 --> 08:29.920]  I don't think you're doing a very good job there, Voltaire.
[08:30.060 --> 08:42.360]  While Mike is beating you senseless in the studio, let me ask folks back in who didn't go to horror if there are any stories or things in the hacker world that they wanted to focus on.
[08:44.900 --> 08:46.360]  No, we all wish you went to horror.
[08:47.360 --> 08:48.080]  That's great.
[08:48.520 --> 08:51.280]  So you walked into the studio today with basically all of that.
[08:52.440 --> 08:53.500]  We all feel horrible.
[08:53.920 --> 08:54.920]  We've missed you terribly.
[08:55.440 --> 08:58.420]  There are still more disappointing things in the news.
[08:58.880 --> 08:59.240]  Yeah.
[09:00.300 --> 09:01.960]  One thing recently...
[09:01.960 --> 09:03.160]  Let me pull this up.
[09:03.360 --> 09:04.280]  We'll get back to horror.
[09:04.380 --> 09:07.600]  We have more to talk about about horror, but Voltaire has some pessimism to share with us.
[09:09.380 --> 09:10.100]  One moment.
[09:10.360 --> 09:11.440]  I'm pulling it up.
[09:12.460 --> 09:13.580]  This should be in your head.
[09:13.840 --> 09:14.980]  It should be something that you remember.
[09:15.380 --> 09:18.380]  So, um...
[09:18.380 --> 09:18.800]  Breaking news.
[09:18.820 --> 09:20.020]  And you should have a faster computer, too.
[09:20.480 --> 09:21.240]  Those two things.
[09:23.560 --> 09:26.000]  Okay, so basically, this has to do with...
[09:26.880 --> 09:33.100]  Well, for background, while I do this, Rob, would you mind explaining the Streisand effect again?
[09:33.460 --> 09:35.280]  Oh, not the Streisand effect again.
[09:36.200 --> 09:37.680]  We love the Streisand effect.
[09:37.840 --> 09:38.420]  It's so much fun.
[09:39.020 --> 09:48.140]  The Streisand effect, for those who don't know, is basically when information appears on the internet and some entity wants it to not be on the internet.
[09:48.140 --> 10:10.800]  So they try to maybe threaten the person who posted it, make legal threats or other sorts of threats, and in response, a community will band together and basically, in a shining example of the way the internet works, will take the information and spread it out everywhere to the point where it's not even by any means possible to remove it from the net.
[10:11.700 --> 10:13.560]  Is this a story about the anonymous blogger?
[10:14.660 --> 10:15.060]  Yes.
[10:15.420 --> 10:19.620]  Okay, well, I've already pulled that up for you, so you don't have to worry about your slow computer trying to find it.
[10:19.740 --> 10:20.700]  Well, I already have it.
[10:20.780 --> 10:21.520]  In Scotland.
[10:21.800 --> 10:37.520]  Well, basically, it's about a model who had all kinds of derogatory terms posted about her by some anonymous blogger, and it appeared on blogger.com in August 2008, and that, of course, is Google's blogging service.
[10:37.800 --> 10:55.360]  Now, the name of this particular blog was Skanks in New York City or NYC, and basically, the target was Leskula Cohen, a Canadian-born one-time cover girl who appeared in Vogue and other fashion magazines.
[10:55.600 --> 11:00.320]  The blog featured photos of her captioned with all kinds of derogatory terms.
[11:01.240 --> 11:12.880]  And basically, what happened was, two days ago on Monday, New York Supreme Court Judge Joan Madden ruled that Google must hand over to Cohen any identifying information it possesses about the blog's creator.
[11:13.100 --> 11:23.680]  And what that means is that Google has to hand over the email address and the IP that they have when this particular blog was created.
[11:23.840 --> 11:28.640]  And what they're going to do, now that they have the information, they're going to go after this person with a defamation suit.
[11:29.360 --> 11:36.500]  Now, there's a lot of speculation as to whether this is all just a publicity stunt because nothing's been posted to this blog for quite some time.
[11:37.120 --> 11:40.260]  And it might be just a way to get someone's name in the news.
[11:40.740 --> 11:47.000]  But the scary thing as far as what we're concerned with is the fact that Google does keep this information.
[11:47.240 --> 11:50.540]  They may say that things are anonymous, but they really aren't.
[11:50.900 --> 11:57.180]  The IP is stored, the email address is stored, and it's handed over when they're told to hand it over.
[11:57.380 --> 12:00.800]  So a lot of people think that they're safe doing anonymous things.
[12:00.920 --> 12:02.780]  It's really not that clear cut.
[12:03.380 --> 12:09.060]  I think an equally, if not more scary, part of this is that it's just a precedent that they're...
[12:09.060 --> 12:20.940]  that just somebody making like a sophomore insult of some person has the right of losing their...
[12:20.940 --> 12:26.940]  or that person that's been insulted can have that person's privacy revoked, which is like...
[12:28.280 --> 12:30.140]  it's a really slippery slope in my opinion.
[12:30.560 --> 12:42.420]  I wish we had a legal expert in the room, but I'm not sure if this sets legal precedent because I know this is a state-wide case and also...
[12:42.420 --> 12:46.720]  but interestingly enough, the state judge quoted another...
[12:47.440 --> 12:50.440]  a judge from another state, Virginia, in this...
[12:50.880 --> 12:51.580]  in the precedent.
[12:51.580 --> 12:56.440]  So I don't know if that's official operating procedure or not, but that's also interesting.
[12:57.240 --> 13:07.460]  Well, I mean, what do you do when somebody is out there and they're just saying nasty things about you and you don't know who they are and these things are distressing and hurtful?
[13:07.460 --> 13:11.460]  Do you think the person who's a victim of that has any rights whatsoever?
[13:12.000 --> 13:12.960]  Just ignore it.
[13:13.180 --> 13:15.000]  It's not going to really...
[13:15.630 --> 13:16.920]  The only people that are going to...
[13:17.480 --> 13:27.420]  that it's going to harm are the only people that will read that are the people that are equally sophomoric and no potential employer is going to believe something so...
[13:29.180 --> 13:30.600]  like stupid, I guess.
[13:30.800 --> 13:35.200]  Yeah, there are things like libel and slander laws which were meant to protect people.
[13:35.660 --> 13:39.040]  I think libel is if it's in print in like a newspaper or something.
[13:39.240 --> 13:43.720]  But the point of things like that is to keep the reliable sources clean.
[13:43.720 --> 14:04.540]  So if somebody on some random blog somewhere says something about you and you're worried that it'll come up in your Google results or what have you, I think we have to accept and the general public has to accept that anybody can post to the internet anything they want so a blurb on some random blog somewhere might not be a reliable source of information about you.
[14:05.340 --> 14:09.260]  But, I mean, how true is that anybody can post anything they want on the internet?
[14:09.480 --> 14:13.920]  I mean, you can't post certain private bits of information about somebody.
[14:14.020 --> 14:16.420]  You can't post threats to certain people.
[14:17.000 --> 14:24.540]  You can't post recipes for building bombs and various other things that the government decides are, you know, not to their liking.
[14:24.560 --> 14:25.880]  So I don't know if that's really true.
[14:26.080 --> 14:27.260]  Well, that's only in the U.S.
[14:27.260 --> 14:27.820]  that's illegal.
[14:28.240 --> 14:30.680]  But the internet is an international network.
[14:30.940 --> 14:31.960]  It's only in the U.S.
[14:32.000 --> 14:33.360]  What, do you think China is any freer?
[14:33.700 --> 14:36.080]  No, but I'm sure there's some random country.
[14:36.320 --> 14:43.280]  You say you can't post this, you can't post that, but I think it would probably be more appropriate to say you're not allowed to, but you still can.
[14:44.160 --> 14:45.940]  It's very easy to post anything to the internet.
[14:46.120 --> 14:48.980]  It's very easy to get onto the internet anonymously and do what you like.
[14:57.260 --> 15:08.040]  I think it's getting a lot harder to post things anonymously to the internet because, as you can see here, it's very easy to track somebody down if the right people are forced to hand over the right information.
[15:08.640 --> 15:14.380]  And whenever you use your computer, identifying information is sent out.
[15:14.460 --> 15:27.880]  If you're using the same computer, and you know, you can try this at home, but I wouldn't advise it just by sending out threats and doing, you know, nasty things and seeing how quickly the authorities are able to figure out that it's you posting from a computer with a different account.
[15:29.500 --> 15:30.780]  It's not...
[15:30.780 --> 15:44.320]  As technology grows, technology also grows with regards to surveillance and keeping anonymity a pipe dream because anonymity is something that scares the powers that be.
[15:44.520 --> 15:50.260]  If you have no means of identifying somebody, that person winds up with a lot of power.
[15:50.520 --> 16:07.180]  And I think almost every bit of technology that we've seen coming out from the major operating systems and computer programs, it's all meant to have some kind of accountability so that you can be identified.
[16:07.360 --> 16:21.500]  And of course, what's not being done by those people, by the people developing the software and running the operating systems, what's not being done by them is being supplied by the users themselves with all their social networking and giving out all the personal details of their lives.
[16:21.620 --> 16:31.880]  So in a way, you know, anonymity is getting harder and harder to achieve, but it's also being defeated by ourselves every single day, I think.
[16:32.100 --> 16:46.020]  Yeah, and that actually ties in with another event that just happened over the past day or two where a video clip was posted online about a woman at a debate about the current health care situation saying some vicious things to the person who was speaking.
[16:46.020 --> 17:00.560]  and she was just an anonymous woman on some video clip, but within, I think, a day or two days of this happening, people had tracked her down, found her Facebook, posted her name, and now that's going around the net.
[17:00.820 --> 17:05.640]  And it's basically, in a way, making her accountable for what she said in public.
[17:06.660 --> 17:10.000]  Now, is this another side of that coin, do you think?
[17:10.000 --> 17:16.600]  Well, anytime you do something in public, you are certainly prone to being identified by somebody.
[17:16.600 --> 17:21.300]  If you do something and it shows up on YouTube, people are going to figure out who you are.
[17:21.680 --> 17:24.460]  That's just the nature of the technology right now.
[17:24.460 --> 17:30.100]  You can do that even without tracking software or without evil things.
[17:30.280 --> 17:39.460]  It's just basically enough people seeing something and a particular event or statement going viral that makes it almost impossible not to identify somebody these days.
[17:40.120 --> 17:43.060]  Are you referring to the Barney Frank video clip?
[17:43.700 --> 17:45.420]  No, but that's yet another one, actually.
[17:45.860 --> 17:46.960]  I don't even know what that is.
[17:47.520 --> 17:50.240]  I've been in Europe now for so long, I don't even know what's...
[17:50.240 --> 17:54.120]  You know, I've been away from a TV set now for over a week, and I just realized that today.
[17:54.660 --> 17:59.740]  It wasn't since I was in London the last time that I was actually seeing a television set.
[17:59.880 --> 18:07.380]  Everything that's been happening over the last week has involved being in places like camps and all kinds of other places without television sets.
[18:07.440 --> 18:09.040]  And I've got to say, I don't miss it at all.
[18:09.600 --> 18:15.880]  Speaking of missing things, one thing we haven't mentioned yet is that today happens to be another special episode of Off the Hook.
[18:16.680 --> 18:17.380]  Yep, yep.
[18:17.540 --> 18:17.680]  Okay.
[18:17.900 --> 18:19.420]  Now, there's two ways we can do this.
[18:19.500 --> 18:27.000]  We can moan and complain and be upset that, yes, we are doing another fundraising show, even though we thought last week was the last one.
[18:27.160 --> 18:29.920]  But let's look at why we're doing another fundraising show.
[18:30.020 --> 18:32.760]  It's not because the station did not make their goal.
[18:32.880 --> 18:35.480]  They did make the goal a couple of days ago, and that's good news.
[18:35.560 --> 18:37.160]  We made the goal for the entire marathon.
[18:37.460 --> 18:46.960]  The bad news is that over the last few years, the station has spiraled into what could be considered a scary debt, which is now being paid off.
[18:47.140 --> 18:49.640]  And we're actually making tremendous progress towards getting there.
[18:50.300 --> 19:07.320]  So the thought with the people running the station, the administration, is that we should keep this momentum up and hopefully build on this and make that debt much, much less so that we actually can plan positively for the future.
[19:07.540 --> 19:09.680]  So this is not an indication of failure.
[19:09.820 --> 19:16.180]  It's an indication of something building up momentum that we like to keep going just for...
[19:16.180 --> 19:18.500]  I think the marathon is ending tonight.
[19:18.640 --> 19:19.540]  This is the last night of it.
[19:20.000 --> 19:24.200]  So we'd like to go out with something really, really positive.
[19:24.380 --> 19:33.160]  What we've done is we've scrambled because every time we find out about this, we have to come up with something cool to give people as a thank you for pledging.
[19:33.500 --> 19:37.220]  And what we're able to come up with, I think, is about the coolest thing we could come up with.
[19:37.740 --> 19:41.160]  And it's not like anything we've done in the last couple of weeks.
[19:41.320 --> 19:51.540]  But basically, the hacker camp, the hacker conference that we're talking about tonight, the hacking at random, the one that we've been building up to all year, we just got back from that.
[19:51.760 --> 19:53.260]  Some people in New York got back from that.
[19:56.860 --> 20:06.120]  We have the top talks, the most popular highlights of the horror conference on DVD.
[20:06.680 --> 20:10.660]  We have about ten talks, ten different sessions.
[20:10.840 --> 20:17.580]  And maybe folks in the studio, hopefully if we ever get redhack and gents online, we can ask them as well.
[20:18.100 --> 20:23.020]  Maybe you guys can tell us something about what highlights you thought existed at the conference.
[20:23.020 --> 20:34.460]  But let me tell the people listening that if you call 212-209-2950, you'll get at least ten DVDs filled with highlights from hacking at random.
[20:34.900 --> 20:36.740]  It's not a replacement for being there.
[20:36.820 --> 20:46.360]  It's not a replacement for all the amazing memories that you'll have from just wandering around the camp field at all hours and talking to people and just seeing things that you've never imagined possible.
[20:46.620 --> 20:47.880]  But it is something.
[20:47.880 --> 20:50.640]  It is pretty damn cool, and it's something that you'll treasure.
[20:50.640 --> 20:57.180]  212-209-2950, pledges $75, gets you those ten DVDs, plus the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[20:57.280 --> 20:58.320]  I think that's a pretty good deal.
[20:58.440 --> 20:58.920]  What do you guys think?
[20:59.560 --> 21:00.940]  I think that's a very good deal.
[21:01.280 --> 21:09.300]  Speaking as someone who wasn't able to go to hacking at random and experience some of these talks, of course, the next best thing is to take them home.
[21:10.020 --> 21:13.020]  So wait, we're only charging $75 for this package?
[21:13.380 --> 21:14.400]  Looks that way, yeah.
[21:14.540 --> 21:16.000]  And you get the radio station as well.
[21:16.220 --> 21:20.240]  The radio station and the off-the-hook t-shirt, which many people say is the most valuable of all.
[21:20.640 --> 21:23.740]  And I saw people at the camp wearing the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[21:23.880 --> 21:27.800]  That really filled me with a sense of pride that we all support each other.
[21:28.000 --> 21:31.140]  So many different t-shirts for all the different events that we have in the Hagrid community.
[21:31.760 --> 21:34.020]  And off-the-hook is like a weekly event that takes place.
[21:34.360 --> 21:40.080]  And I still am flabbergasted by how many people actually listen and follow what we go through week after week.
[21:40.180 --> 21:41.860]  And it's just really cool.
[21:41.880 --> 21:43.160]  It makes me want to do it all the more.
[21:43.880 --> 21:56.640]  And I just try to think of where we'd be if WBAI was not there, if we hadn't had this show over the years, to talk about these issues and to sort of bring forth what the hacker perspective is all about.
[21:56.940 --> 22:10.080]  And, you know, for those who aren't familiar, the hacker perspective pretty much is just sharing information, being kind of rebellious, anti-authority, questioning, mischievous, all that kind of stuff.
[22:10.540 --> 22:17.260]  And basically trading stories and, I don't know, just meeting people from all over the world.
[22:17.840 --> 22:19.220]  It's been building up.
[22:19.300 --> 22:21.760]  It's been building up for years, almost decades.
[22:22.260 --> 22:25.760]  And I think, you know, we see it manifest itself with events like this.
[22:25.840 --> 22:28.840]  But just because you weren't there doesn't mean that you have to do without.
[22:28.840 --> 22:32.020]  There are ways that you can make up for that.
[22:32.420 --> 22:41.240]  And by doing this, by calling us at 212-209-2950, you're making a significant contribution by keeping the radio station going.
[22:41.360 --> 22:46.340]  And that radio station, by the way, is responsible for so many people being turned on to the hacker world.
[22:46.960 --> 22:49.260]  So we're all joining forces in one way or another.
[22:49.400 --> 22:57.380]  And we have this extra day of fundraising, which, yeah, of course, we prefer to be just doing a show and not having to ask for funds.
[22:57.380 --> 23:05.640]  But in a way, it's also a privilege to be able to support the place, to know that we're part of the structure, we're part of the foundation.
[23:06.640 --> 23:16.580]  And calling 212-209-2950, pledging what you can afford, or pledging $75 for the DVDs, you become a major part of this organization.
[23:16.580 --> 23:20.180]  And you become responsible for getting more and more people turned on to it.
[23:20.460 --> 23:25.280]  So hopefully phone lines are starting to light up because, again, this is something we're only going to offer tonight.
[23:25.280 --> 23:27.640]  And this really is the last night of the fundraiser.
[23:29.120 --> 23:35.560]  Emanuel, I am loath to report this, but it's a fact we don't have any lines lit up yet.
[23:36.000 --> 23:36.640]  No lines lit up.
[23:36.740 --> 23:37.800]  Well, here's the thing.
[23:38.420 --> 23:42.240]  My voice is going out live to New York City and environs.
[23:42.240 --> 23:46.640]  It takes a minute or two more for the voice to get out on the internet.
[23:46.780 --> 23:50.320]  So I know it takes some time, also, for people to get to the telephone and start dialing.
[23:50.760 --> 24:00.720]  However, it's also possible that my voice simply is not strong enough over these transatlantic phone lines to impart the message that this is important, this is significant.
[24:00.860 --> 24:08.220]  So I think one of you guys sitting there in the studio with your nice, FM-quality sound voice will be able to get more calls coming in.
[24:08.320 --> 24:12.320]  If you just say the phone number a few times and maybe put a little emotion into it.
[24:13.000 --> 24:14.260]  Now, Mike, you're back.
[24:14.400 --> 24:20.140]  And this is something that I've been hoping to hear you say live again before the end of this fun drive.
[24:20.140 --> 24:20.980]  It's true.
[24:21.120 --> 24:30.300]  It's just not the same to be overseas telling people to call 212-209-2950 as it is to be in the studio.
[24:30.300 --> 24:35.220]  Because here in the studio, I can see with my own eyes that no one's calling.
[24:35.240 --> 24:38.200]  Well, we have one call on the line and we want to thank that person.
[24:38.340 --> 24:53.800]  But I can see that clearly not enough people are calling 212-209-2950 to show their support, to keep the station on the air, to get the premium, the off-the-hook t-shirt, and the hard 2009 recordings.
[24:55.440 --> 25:00.940]  So I'm really glad to have the opportunity to pitch from the studio itself.
[25:01.000 --> 25:22.500]  But I'm really not glad that this opportunity is being almost, I don't want to say wasted, but not living up to its full potential of seeing the blinking red lights across the studio, which is what happens when people call 212-209-2950 and they pledge their support and keep us on the air.
[25:23.000 --> 25:24.440]  Yeah, it's a very important part.
[25:24.660 --> 25:28.260]  I know it drives some people mad, but imagine if we had commercials instead.
[25:28.400 --> 25:29.680]  That's the only other alternative.
[25:29.940 --> 25:31.760]  If we didn't do this, we'd have to have commercials.
[25:31.760 --> 25:34.180]  And if we had commercials, we couldn't do a show like Off the Hook.
[25:34.180 --> 25:42.380]  So that would be a real shame because you basically lose a voice that's responsible for so much information getting out there.
[25:43.200 --> 25:50.780]  Even on those weeks when we do fundraisers, we try to get as much information out there as possible and get as much feedback going as we possibly can.
[25:51.040 --> 25:51.800]  So, yeah.
[25:52.180 --> 25:55.120]  And we're going to be honest with you and report what's going on.
[25:55.200 --> 25:58.140]  We're not going to pretend a lot of calls are coming in if they're really not coming in.
[25:58.140 --> 26:01.100]  We only have one call on the line, and we're going to say we only have one call on the line.
[26:01.160 --> 26:01.760]  We need more.
[26:01.960 --> 26:04.080]  We need to have about five calls on the line.
[26:04.200 --> 26:06.040]  We need to make about $1,000 this hour.
[26:06.220 --> 26:08.900]  It's a lot of money, but if we pitch together, we can do it.
[26:08.980 --> 26:26.620]  I mean, if you were a part of what happened over this last week in Holland and you saw what was built with all the volunteers who came forward and all the attendees who were a part of it, you would simply rethink everything in your life as far as what you can do as an individual.
[26:26.620 --> 26:28.080]  It's that dramatic.
[26:28.240 --> 26:28.960]  It's that incredible.
[26:29.200 --> 26:34.460]  When people put their hands together and build towards a common goal, there is nothing they can't accomplish.
[26:35.080 --> 26:36.240]  Now, horror is over.
[26:36.580 --> 26:37.920]  It's a tremendous success.
[26:38.100 --> 26:44.040]  It was a great event, five days of pure bliss in the heck of a world as far as I'm concerned.
[26:44.440 --> 26:47.760]  But there are many more events coming up in the future.
[26:47.900 --> 26:58.440]  There are many more things to talk about, many battles to fight, many stories to report, and all of that, all of that is possible with this radio show on this radio station.
[26:58.440 --> 27:11.420]  But it all goes away if we're not here, if the show doesn't survive on the station because the station doesn't survive because not enough people call in and we get turned into some kind of commercial station.
[27:11.420 --> 27:12.240]  That would be horrible.
[27:12.440 --> 27:17.160]  And a lot of people would lose out or, worse, would never even know that potential.
[27:17.360 --> 27:21.720]  So that alone is a reason to call 212-209-2950.
[27:22.380 --> 27:32.060]  $75 gets you the ten DVD highlights of the Hacking at Random conference plus the off-the-hook t-shirt, 212-209-2950.
[27:32.360 --> 27:33.840]  We take all kinds of credit cards.
[27:34.120 --> 27:35.180]  We can bill you.
[27:35.440 --> 27:38.660]  There's all kinds of things that we can work out down there in the tally room.
[27:38.740 --> 27:42.780]  But you have to call now within this hour, 212-209-2950.
[27:42.780 --> 27:46.120]  So, yeah, help us keep this momentum going.
[27:46.380 --> 27:54.220]  Like Emmanuel said, we're trying to not just pay for going on for this season.
[27:54.220 --> 28:04.360]  We're trying to help relieve our debt, which will keep the station going on for farther into the foreseeable future, which you can't do with such a scary debt.
[28:04.860 --> 28:06.880]  Yeah, especially in these economic times.
[28:06.940 --> 28:18.340]  I know things are tough, but what we've seen since the last fundraiser is just an increase in the spirit, an increase in what people are willing to put into the place.
[28:18.420 --> 28:19.240]  And I like to see that.
[28:19.340 --> 28:30.100]  I like to see people conspiring on new things to do at the station programming-wise and just getting a renewed sense of what radio is capable of.
[28:30.260 --> 28:33.540]  Yeah, commercial radio is in a lot of trouble because, well, you know, they're dying.
[28:33.760 --> 28:35.080]  They have nothing to contribute.
[28:35.080 --> 28:40.700]  They just play music and things that you can do on your own MP3 player.
[28:40.700 --> 28:41.480]  So what's the point?
[28:41.560 --> 28:42.340]  Why would you need them?
[28:42.420 --> 28:47.500]  Why would you need to listen to something like that and then hear their commercials when you can do the same thing yourself?
[28:47.580 --> 28:48.260]  Probably better.
[28:48.380 --> 28:49.280]  Probably more diverse.
[28:49.540 --> 28:53.600]  But a station like WBAI, well, you know, you hear voices from all over the world.
[28:53.760 --> 28:55.000]  Literally tonight you're doing that.
[28:55.120 --> 29:02.300]  But throughout the course of the broadcast day, you hear so many different thoughts and perspectives, and your mind has just opened up so much.
[29:02.480 --> 29:05.300]  And that is what you're contributing to.
[29:05.500 --> 29:06.720]  That's what you're preserving.
[29:06.860 --> 29:07.640]  And that's the future.
[29:07.900 --> 29:11.960]  I think if FM radio has a future, WBAI is it.
[29:12.260 --> 29:14.540]  But you're part of that future.
[29:14.720 --> 29:20.320]  And that's why it's so important, so vital for you to call 212-209-2950 if you're outside the country.
[29:20.320 --> 29:25.100]  I know a lot of people listen to us outside the country because we talk to so many of them at horror.
[29:25.780 --> 29:26.560]  Country code is one.
[29:26.880 --> 29:30.000]  So country code 1, 212-209-2950.
[29:30.040 --> 29:31.620]  Please make those phones light up.
[29:31.860 --> 29:40.700]  You'll see how easy it is to make us happy and to make us have a more positive light when we see the support coming in.
[29:40.900 --> 29:42.700]  Because without the support, we're nothing.
[29:43.520 --> 29:46.300]  Hey, Emmanuel, we have four incoming calls.
[29:46.440 --> 29:48.840]  That's five incoming calls right now.
[29:48.980 --> 29:49.400]  Thank you.
[29:49.400 --> 29:49.920]  Thank you so much.
[29:50.320 --> 29:54.860]  And we also have an outgoing calls finally successfully placed to RedHact is on the phone.
[29:55.100 --> 29:56.360]  Oh, RedHact.
[29:56.600 --> 29:57.200]  How you doing?
[29:57.360 --> 29:58.080]  Where are you?
[29:58.160 --> 29:59.120]  You're in Scotland too, eh?
[29:59.840 --> 30:00.180]  Yeah.
[30:00.460 --> 30:04.840]  Junets and I are currently standing in Port Ellen or outside.
[30:04.960 --> 30:07.720]  It's raining on us, but this is where we could get the best connection.
[30:08.480 --> 30:13.580]  We're in Islay, which is a scotch producing region, an island in Scotland.
[30:14.060 --> 30:15.540]  They produce scotch there?
[30:16.220 --> 30:18.660]  Yeah, it's one of the regions that produce scotch.
[30:18.660 --> 30:21.680]  They're known here more for their smoky scotch.
[30:22.480 --> 30:26.900]  RedHact, what is it like being on an island called Islay that produces scotch?
[30:26.900 --> 30:30.720]  It sounds like a very strange environment that you find yourself in right now.
[30:31.240 --> 30:32.120]  It is.
[30:32.120 --> 30:33.080]  It's actually very quiet.
[30:33.080 --> 30:39.680]  We've been standing out here for about half an hour now waiting for you to reach us, and not a car or a person has walked by.
[30:41.660 --> 30:43.420]  There's very few people here.
[30:43.680 --> 30:50.060]  We've been driving around to get from place to place, and there are sheep crossing signs on the road as well as sheep.
[30:51.480 --> 30:52.000]  Awesome.
[30:52.480 --> 30:53.000]  Yeah.
[30:53.140 --> 30:59.700]  I took the train up today from London, and I saw so many sheep, both in England and in Scotland.
[31:00.540 --> 31:01.760]  It is simply incredible.
[31:02.060 --> 31:04.640]  I know what you need so many sheep for, but they're everywhere.
[31:04.940 --> 31:07.720]  So I guess over there they need them as well.
[31:08.100 --> 31:09.920]  That's probably why they have so much haggis.
[31:10.640 --> 31:14.180]  Yes, yes, and I've heard that phrase bandied about many times.
[31:14.460 --> 31:18.700]  Maybe you want to tell the folks what that Scottish delicacy is.
[31:19.820 --> 31:27.060]  Well, it's ground organ meats, I believe also of sheep, that are then cooked in a sheep's stomach.
[31:28.440 --> 31:29.480]  So that's what it is.
[31:29.540 --> 31:30.920]  I had it on a panini here.
[31:31.200 --> 31:40.820]  And obviously all the sheep standing placidly in fields have no idea what that is because, my God, I'd be running for the hills if I knew that was part of my future.
[31:41.320 --> 31:44.120]  They have no idea where they're heading, but they are delicious.
[31:45.180 --> 31:45.400]  Okay.
[31:45.460 --> 31:53.120]  Well, you know, I had Indian food tonight, so I can't really say that I'm in the full Scottish world here.
[31:53.240 --> 31:54.680]  But it's cool.
[31:54.700 --> 31:56.820]  We're both in the same region of the world.
[31:56.820 --> 31:58.340]  Hopefully we'll see each other at some point.
[31:58.920 --> 32:03.060]  I think we're also heading to Edinburgh in the near future as well.
[32:03.640 --> 32:08.640]  But tell us, both you and Jones, what you thought of the horror conference.
[32:08.760 --> 32:11.780]  Any specific memories or any particular talks you'd like to mention?
[32:12.380 --> 32:14.840]  I'll hand it over to Jones first so you can talk for a bit.
[32:15.120 --> 32:15.360]  Okay.
[32:15.380 --> 32:16.260]  You can hear my question.
[32:16.260 --> 32:17.400]  You mentioned Indian.
[32:17.580 --> 32:22.080]  There's several Indian restaurants on the small island of Iowa also, which surprised us.
[32:22.620 --> 32:25.500]  But yeah, the horror conference was amazing.
[32:25.500 --> 32:31.620]  It was 2,200 people jammed into one small area in tents.
[32:31.860 --> 32:36.220]  And the thing that struck me the most was the organization.
[32:36.380 --> 32:41.840]  Everything seemed to be organized and thought of, all the details fleshed out ahead of time.
[32:41.840 --> 32:43.940]  And we were want for nothing, that's for sure.
[32:44.140 --> 32:50.720]  There was plenty of food and accommodation, places to shower and to sleep.
[32:50.720 --> 32:53.220]  And the talks were amazing.
[32:53.380 --> 32:55.500]  I went to several that I didn't think I would go to.
[32:55.560 --> 32:58.100]  I thought I would be kind of hanging out with people the whole time.
[32:58.260 --> 32:59.520]  But I went to a lot of talks.
[32:59.640 --> 33:02.200]  They were very interesting and met a lot of new people.
[33:02.360 --> 33:04.920]  So it was a big social learning event for me.
[33:05.080 --> 33:07.260]  It was your first hacker camp, I believe, right?
[33:07.540 --> 33:08.260]  It was, yes.
[33:08.260 --> 33:09.960]  I've been to several hacker events.
[33:09.960 --> 33:11.780]  This is the first camp and I'm hooked.
[33:12.000 --> 33:15.960]  I'm going to try to get to everyone, the German and the Dutch from now on.
[33:16.260 --> 33:18.940]  Are there any particular talks that stand out for you?
[33:20.840 --> 33:24.820]  I saw a talk about the JTAG programming or JTAG interfaces.
[33:25.880 --> 33:27.020]  There were some...
[33:27.020 --> 33:27.640]  Oh, geez.
[33:27.860 --> 33:28.140]  What else?
[33:28.240 --> 33:30.060]  There were so many, they all blend together after a while.
[33:31.780 --> 33:34.600]  But there was a talk on hackerspaces that was very interesting.
[33:35.340 --> 33:40.900]  There were some, like, science-y talks about the future of science and building your own giga-electrovolt thing.
[33:41.180 --> 33:42.040]  It's very interesting.
[33:42.280 --> 33:48.000]  Well, I know our friend Barry the Key gave a talk on lockpicking, which is very enthusiastically received, as always.
[33:48.720 --> 33:49.740]  There was...
[33:49.740 --> 33:51.440]  Did anybody go to the GSM talk?
[33:52.200 --> 33:53.520]  I went to that, yeah.
[33:53.860 --> 33:54.100]  Okay.
[33:54.260 --> 34:14.080]  Well, now, I've heard that the GSM talk was so sensitive that when it was last presented or about to be presented, the people involved were so intimidated by MI5, the intelligence service here in England, that they just were so spooked out that they never gave the talk.
[34:14.300 --> 34:15.620]  And now the talk has been given.
[34:16.160 --> 34:17.360]  Information is out there.
[34:17.360 --> 34:18.720]  It can't be taken back.
[34:19.260 --> 34:26.060]  And I think there's going to be some pretty serious consequences as a result of this, as far as the whole GSM world.
[34:26.160 --> 34:26.360]  I don't know.
[34:26.400 --> 34:29.920]  I didn't see the talk myself, but I heard that it was very, very interesting.
[34:29.920 --> 34:46.140]  Well, basically, there were a couple of GSM talks, but the one you're referring to was with regards to cracking the A5-1 encryption on GSM and cracking it in a way that basically you take a lot of... you know, it's a CPU memory kind of trade-off thing.
[34:46.340 --> 34:57.680]  We take a lot of... you generate basically all of the possible keys in a way so that given an encrypted conversation or encrypted message, you can figure out what it is by doing a table lookup.
[34:57.680 --> 35:04.160]  So it takes a lot of CPU power and a lot of storage now, but it makes it, when you actually have messages you want to decode, it makes it very fast.
[35:04.740 --> 35:21.560]  And the reason that they want to do this is because it's, you know, they want basically that people who are ethical generate this first so that it forces the industry to change rather than somebody who's secretly having this table that they've generated or whatever resources they have that they can do.
[35:21.620 --> 35:26.880]  And, you know, any government could probably muster the resources quite easily to do this and probably have already.
[35:27.640 --> 35:33.620]  But what happened was the previous time that the talk was supposed to be given that the data was generated, it was not released.
[35:33.820 --> 35:36.420]  They were intimidated so that they did not release the data.
[35:36.420 --> 35:43.040]  And so what this group of individuals now did is they wrote software to do the actual table generation.
[35:43.160 --> 35:50.380]  And they were asking the audience and to tell other people basically to devote their computing resources.
[35:50.380 --> 35:59.620]  The two major kinds being either FPGAs, which are a very fast kind of hardware-based solution, or spare cycles on their graphics card.
[35:59.620 --> 36:03.900]  If they have an NVIDIA graphics card, it's got this graphics processor that could be used with the software.
[36:04.340 --> 36:15.860]  And so the idea being that, you know, okay, generate a portion of this table, post it on BitTorrent anonymously, and we just generate enough so that it forces the industry to change, basically is the idea.
[36:15.860 --> 36:21.880]  But these people themselves were not planning on being the ones to actually do the release of the table.
[36:22.080 --> 36:35.020]  They said, you, you know, you 80 or so people that is required to do this in the next three months, do what you can, and then post the data on BitTorrent, you know, using maybe Tor to anonymize it, so that it's out there, and it's not traceable to anyone,
[36:35.200 --> 36:36.880]  and it just forces a change.
[36:36.940 --> 36:37.720]  So that was the idea.
[36:37.920 --> 36:41.620]  So the previous people did it, and they couldn't release it, basically, is what happened.
[36:41.620 --> 36:46.200]  And this was doing it again, and making sure it gets out there.
[36:46.400 --> 36:58.480]  So it's pretty ingenious, and I don't think anything reflects the spirit of hackers more than getting information out in that particular way as a collective, and using technology to bring that forth.
[36:58.720 --> 37:04.280]  All the talks that you've heard mention over the past few minutes are included in the package that we're offering tonight.
[37:04.280 --> 37:09.280]  So if you want to see firsthand what this is all about, call now, 212-209-2950.
[37:09.820 --> 37:10.620]  Pledge $75.
[37:10.740 --> 37:16.960]  You'll get at least 10 DVDs filled with highlights from the Hacking at Random conference, which just took place in the Netherlands.
[37:17.720 --> 37:19.500]  And you also get the Off the Hook T-shirt.
[37:19.520 --> 37:20.780]  But you've got a call during this hour.
[37:20.940 --> 37:25.140]  It's only available until 8 o'clock, 212-209-2950.
[37:25.960 --> 37:31.720]  I should also point out, Mike, I believe Bernie said he was going to try to call us.
[37:31.720 --> 37:34.780]  He's actually landing right about now.
[37:36.600 --> 37:38.300]  And he's returning from Europe.
[37:38.540 --> 37:39.780]  And he said...
[37:39.780 --> 37:41.500]  Should I tell what he said?
[37:42.180 --> 37:43.400]  It might be too risky.
[37:43.460 --> 37:44.840]  But also, he's not calling.
[37:45.260 --> 37:46.160]  Yeah, well, he's not calling.
[37:46.300 --> 37:47.260]  Maybe he said it to too many people.
[37:47.800 --> 37:50.780]  He's going to try and call us before he actually goes through customs.
[37:51.640 --> 37:54.060]  And maybe while he's going through customs.
[37:55.160 --> 37:59.880]  I have to say, Emmanuel, I went through customs on Monday, flying back to the States.
[37:59.880 --> 38:05.360]  And they were very quick about telling anyone on a cell phone to get off that cell phone.
[38:05.840 --> 38:10.740]  Yes, but supposing you had a cell phone, and you simply put it in your pocket, but it was still on.
[38:10.820 --> 38:11.500]  What would happen then?
[38:11.720 --> 38:13.340]  Doesn't sound like very compelling radio.
[38:14.040 --> 38:14.800]  Well, it depends.
[38:14.800 --> 38:19.620]  If he gets, you know, the usual search and interrogation, then it could be very interesting.
[38:20.000 --> 38:20.780]  It's nothing usual.
[38:20.960 --> 38:21.380]  I don't know.
[38:21.780 --> 38:22.600]  Yeah, well, we'll see.
[38:23.100 --> 38:30.340]  I do want to mention that we have no calls coming in right now to 212-209-2950.
[38:30.340 --> 38:32.760]  We had some earlier, and we want to thank those people.
[38:32.760 --> 38:52.720]  But if you call us now, you will not have to wait to talk to a volunteer to take your pledge, 212-209-2950, to get the copies of the talks from Har, the off-the-hook t-shirt, and to keep off-the-hook and WBI on the air to help WBI crawl out of this huge debt that we have.
[38:53.760 --> 38:56.500]  212-209-2950 is the number.
[38:56.740 --> 38:59.220]  It sounds negative when you say it like that.
[38:59.300 --> 39:02.640]  I mean, it is a negative situation that we have to crawl out from under this huge debt.
[39:02.780 --> 39:09.020]  But the fact is we are crawling out from under it, and we are making significant progress, and things are changing, and things will get better.
[39:10.240 --> 39:13.120]  But all of that, all of that is dependent on our listeners.
[39:13.300 --> 39:14.540]  Without our listeners, we are nothing.
[39:14.840 --> 39:16.720]  And that's something very important to stress.
[39:17.160 --> 39:21.340]  And we also, you know, I want to make it clear that our listeners are very special listeners.
[39:21.340 --> 39:23.760]  They are listeners who actually listen to the radio.
[39:23.900 --> 39:28.660]  They listen to what's being said, and they value the information that is out there.
[39:28.900 --> 39:34.680]  Now, you know, we could just as easily become a station that has a lot of infomercial equivalents.
[39:35.200 --> 39:37.920]  We could probably do quite well if we did that.
[39:38.000 --> 39:45.260]  We could peddle, I don't know, get-rich-quick schemes or health cures for various diseases and things like that.
[39:45.260 --> 39:59.380]  We could do that, and we could probably do very, very well and probably get a whole new group of people in that really don't have the intelligence to think world events through and to come up with creative solutions to problems.
[40:00.140 --> 40:06.820]  Now, you know, if we did something like that, yeah, we'd crawl out from under that debt a lot quicker, but we'd lose something valuable in the process.
[40:07.120 --> 40:18.220]  That's why it's especially important when you hear something that you do like, when you hear something that does probe your intellect a little bit, you show your support, because that tells people here that it matters.
[40:18.600 --> 40:24.320]  212-209-2950, show your support for the programming that you like here at the radio station.
[40:24.480 --> 40:26.980]  212-209-2950.
[40:27.500 --> 40:29.820]  I sure hope we have a few calls coming in.
[40:29.820 --> 40:32.200]  Yeah, we have two on the line now, and there's...
[40:32.960 --> 40:38.660]  Dot Rhett said he was down in the tally room before, and there's plenty of volunteers to take more calls than that.
[40:38.800 --> 40:41.380]  212-209-2950.
[40:41.380 --> 40:50.420]  I do hope, Emmanuel, though, that we can include in the HAR 2009 package the keynote address from HAR 2009, which I got a chance to see.
[40:50.420 --> 41:06.080]  It was by the folks from WikiLeaks, who operate a website where basically anyone can go, if they have a document that's not supposed to be public, and anonymously provide that document to the public.
[41:06.840 --> 41:19.060]  So they provide an awesome service, and they gave a very good talk giving some of the examples how basically a single document has been able to take down the government in a few different countries.
[41:20.100 --> 41:38.160]  how they've been raided in Germany, there have been assassination attempts in Kenya, just everywhere around the world that these guys turn their attention, something crazy happens, and they gave a talk about it at HAR 2009, and it is included in the package that you'll get.
[41:38.420 --> 41:42.440]  I can't recommend enough checking out what these guys do.
[41:42.800 --> 41:45.200]  212-209-2950.
[41:45.200 --> 41:59.100]  Mike, what you just made me realize is the fact that there's so much I didn't see at HAR, and even though I was there, even though I was there and practically awake the whole time, there's so much that I still didn't see.
[41:59.260 --> 42:06.520]  And if you went to HAR, you should probably get this package too, because there's no way you could have seen it all.
[42:06.520 --> 42:11.200]  Just like with the HOPE conferences, we do so much, there's no way you could actually see it.
[42:11.560 --> 42:12.780]  So you need this.
[42:12.780 --> 42:16.280]  You need to be able to see the talk on WikiLeaks.
[42:16.280 --> 42:24.560]  You need to be able to see the GSM panel and all the various other things that took place that really changed a lot of people, I think.
[42:24.680 --> 42:26.480]  212-209-2950.
[42:27.280 --> 42:29.060]  This is valuable information here.
[42:29.060 --> 42:35.320]  The pledge of $75 gets you at least 10 DVDs, and that's a lot of information there, a lot of really cool stuff.
[42:35.660 --> 42:48.940]  I'm just looking at this schedule, looking at it again, as we think of talks to highlight for the show, and I'm just seeing events that I didn't even know existed, and I was there.
[42:49.980 --> 42:52.880]  It's really quite amazing how much went on at this conference.
[42:53.380 --> 42:58.460]  Yeah, and we're talking about the presentations, the panels, and talks right now.
[42:58.580 --> 43:00.340]  But yeah, there's a lot more going on.
[43:00.860 --> 43:07.460]  Of course, we all remember the Italian Embassy, the folks there with their grappa, and all kinds of craziness.
[43:07.860 --> 43:11.160]  The potato guns coming from the Austrians, I believe.
[43:11.280 --> 43:12.960]  Was it the Austrians firing the potato guns?
[43:13.320 --> 43:14.920]  It was a sheep gun.
[43:15.620 --> 43:17.880]  The sheep gun, yeah, but it was a potato gun originally.
[43:17.880 --> 43:21.900]  Well, okay, explain why it's a sheep gun, and this is really not a good show for sheep, is it?
[43:22.580 --> 43:28.640]  Well, they were little tiny plastic sheep that they were firing in glow sticks.
[43:29.200 --> 43:42.080]  One thing about these conferences that I've noticed is you would not be able to overstate the amount by which people are amused by blinking lights.
[43:43.900 --> 43:44.420]  Yes.
[43:44.420 --> 43:57.380]  You know, grown adults from the developed world who have all seen and mostly even all built blinking lights before, and still we are totally fascinated by each new thing that can be done with them.
[43:58.140 --> 44:05.940]  So firing glow sticks from a potato gun, sheep gun, whatever it was, was definitely quite a highlight.
[44:06.180 --> 44:09.900]  Not, unfortunately, included in the DVD set, but...
[44:09.900 --> 44:11.260]  Yeah, how would you include that?
[44:11.260 --> 44:12.320]  That's really not possible.
[44:12.720 --> 44:20.060]  We can tell you about it, but you have to see the little sheep being fired out of the potato gun to know what that looks like.
[44:20.640 --> 44:23.800]  One amazing thing about these conferences, I mean, and the talks were amazing.
[44:23.960 --> 44:30.420]  I actually found myself just kind of wandering into talks and sitting down and being absolutely kind of interested and engrossed in them.
[44:31.120 --> 44:37.060]  Even if I hadn't, you know, I hadn't gone through the schedule and circled a camp, or just kind of follow people in or just poke my head in.
[44:37.060 --> 44:51.980]  But the beauty of these camps and this camp is just how people, different groups, MetaLab and the Italian MCN and all sorts of groups come together and they bring projects they've been working on there.
[44:52.200 --> 45:03.900]  Seabase had, which was one of the hackerspaces, had set up a multiple table, and they put games on it that you could play and things like that.
[45:03.900 --> 45:05.680]  And it's just all of these projects...
[45:05.680 --> 45:06.140]  Uh-oh.
[45:06.960 --> 45:07.780]  That's not me.
[45:11.300 --> 45:11.980]  Who did we lose?
[45:12.760 --> 45:13.980]  We didn't lose anyone.
[45:14.680 --> 45:14.920]  Okay.
[45:15.660 --> 45:17.600]  Usually that signal comes out when we lose somebody.
[45:17.620 --> 45:18.840]  You're still there, Red Hecht?
[45:19.660 --> 45:21.660]  He was talking after the signal started.
[45:21.780 --> 45:22.480]  That was the weird thing.
[45:23.320 --> 45:24.580]  And now the signal's back.
[45:26.380 --> 45:26.860]  Wow.
[45:27.560 --> 45:40.920]  Well, something else interesting that Mike said was that even he went to the conference, and when he looks at this list now of stuff that you can watch in this DVD, in these DVDs, there's things there that even he didn't even know existed.
[45:41.060 --> 45:46.880]  So even if you went to the conference, you can get something that you didn't get while you were actually there.
[45:46.880 --> 45:49.780]  And on top of that, you get to help support the station.
[45:50.020 --> 46:03.360]  So another thing that I did know existed, which I hope we can include in the package, there was a... they called it a panel discussion, but that might be a slightly overly polite term for what it was.
[46:03.540 --> 46:18.100]  There was a representative of BRAIN, which is B-R-E-I-N, which is sort of the Dutch equivalent of the RIAA, and some folks from the RIAA community.
[46:18.320 --> 46:28.140]  So that was quite interesting to see this guy attempt to defend the position of the recording industry.
[46:28.140 --> 46:45.480]  And I hope it's not spoiling anything to say that in the question and answer period, there was a special surprise appearance by one of the folks from the Pirate Bay, who has quite a different opinion of the role of copyright to be... to understate it.
[46:46.060 --> 46:49.280]  So they were able to debate and get at it for a few moments.
[46:49.400 --> 46:51.580]  So that was quite exciting to see.
[46:51.660 --> 47:06.920]  Yeah, I really want to see that one because I heard so many people talking about that, just seeing somebody from the Pirate Bay actually getting a chance to speak their minds to somebody that helped to shut them down, if not directly through certain thought processes at least.
[47:06.920 --> 47:17.940]  There was also a very interesting talk by Annalee Newitz, who many of us know, called The Censoring Mob, How Social Media Destroy Freedom of Expression and Why That Might Be a Good Thing.
[47:18.520 --> 47:19.160]  It's intriguing.
[47:19.300 --> 47:20.560]  I know that talk was very well attended.
[47:20.760 --> 47:22.900]  Again, I didn't really attend very many talks.
[47:22.960 --> 47:24.940]  In fact, I just stuck my head in a couple of times.
[47:25.580 --> 47:26.620]  I was on a panel.
[47:26.840 --> 47:30.080]  I was on one panel, which I believe is also part of this package.
[47:30.080 --> 47:33.040]  It was basically how to organize a con.
[47:33.480 --> 47:35.660]  Not a con job, but a convention.
[47:36.860 --> 47:42.060]  Basically, it brought together a whole bunch of people that organize conferences throughout the world.
[47:42.800 --> 47:48.720]  And one thing we learned, just by talking to each other, is that there are basically two kinds of conferences.
[47:48.960 --> 47:54.360]  There are the kinds where you have the people running the conference, and then you have the attendees.
[47:54.360 --> 48:03.340]  The people running the conference tell the attendees what to do, how everything is going to be, how it's going to play out, what the rules are, things like that.
[48:03.480 --> 48:16.120]  Then you have conferences like HAR, and conferences like HOPE, and conferences like the German camps, where basically everybody, and I think this was a slogan at HAR, everybody is a volunteer.
[48:16.400 --> 48:18.680]  Everybody is coordinating this.
[48:18.860 --> 48:19.860]  We all work together.
[48:19.860 --> 48:34.960]  Yeah, there are people who make decisions and figure things out, but nobody is spoken down to, as if they're just a customer or somebody that is there at the whim of the people in charge.
[48:35.180 --> 48:36.920]  That spirit just was not there at all.
[48:37.000 --> 48:41.120]  In fact, you didn't even see who was in charge of anything.
[48:41.240 --> 48:42.940]  Just basically everybody was in charge.
[48:42.940 --> 48:48.280]  Everybody was making sure the community stayed together and peaceful and productive.
[48:48.280 --> 48:55.120]  And I think that's something very important that we learned in that particular talk was that we have something unique here with these hacker events.
[48:55.120 --> 49:00.880]  We have people that really pool their resources together and create things that I don't think any other community could really do.
[49:01.060 --> 49:16.960]  You know, Emmanuel, one thing about that panel that I found maybe a little bit depressing was the number of conferences that spent time talking about how to placate their sponsors, how to get sponsors, how to make the sponsors happy.
[49:17.080 --> 49:30.920]  And that's something we don't do at Hope and it's something we don't do on WBAI, is have big corporate sponsors who provide tons of money and then get to impose their will on the proceedings.
[49:31.840 --> 49:35.580]  At Hope, it's all the attendees that fund it.
[49:35.880 --> 49:38.780]  On WBAI, it's all the listeners that fund it.
[49:39.000 --> 49:46.120]  And so if you call 212-209-2950, you'll get to see this panel, you'll get to see lots more panels.
[49:46.340 --> 49:58.940]  But you'll also be participating in this really unique funding model where we have no sponsors but our participants, the listeners, 212-209-2950.
[49:58.940 --> 50:04.140]  Yeah, I totally get what you're saying there, Mike, as far as the sponsorship thing.
[50:04.300 --> 50:06.920]  I think, you know, there are two schools of thought here.
[50:07.940 --> 50:17.960]  And one is that by getting some kind of sponsor, getting some kind of big name to actually throw money at you, that in a way is sort of a hack.
[50:18.180 --> 50:25.740]  You're sort of getting these people to acknowledge your presence and to give you money that allows you to do something that you ordinarily would not be able to do.
[50:25.740 --> 50:32.640]  I happen to think that you'll be able to do it with the support of the community, but I understand how that might not be easy to come by at first.
[50:32.880 --> 50:35.900]  So, you know, it's something that we've struggled with ourselves.
[50:36.080 --> 50:40.820]  And certainly if we didn't have as much support as we have now, we'd have to seriously consider something like that.
[50:40.940 --> 50:49.060]  So, yeah, you raise a very good parallel because the same issues that we face with HOPE are the same issues that WBAI faces.
[50:49.060 --> 50:50.280]  I mean, think about it.
[50:50.300 --> 50:55.320]  If WBAI doesn't get enough funding, doesn't get enough support from its listeners, well, it can't just continue.
[50:55.380 --> 50:56.460]  It would be impossible.
[50:56.460 --> 50:57.520]  They'd have to do something.
[50:57.660 --> 51:08.880]  They'd have to either take sponsors or maybe shift to another frequency that doesn't reach half as many people and sell the license for the more powerful signal.
[51:09.140 --> 51:12.500]  Horrible things that we don't even want to consider, but that is the reality of the situation.
[51:12.500 --> 51:15.720]  You need that support or you have to make unpleasant decisions.
[51:16.040 --> 51:21.780]  So the decision you make now can help to keep us from making bad decisions in the future.
[51:22.160 --> 51:27.600]  And just by calling that number, maybe the number being said in a good FM voice will get more people.
[51:27.740 --> 51:29.600]  Calling that number will definitely make a difference.
[51:30.040 --> 51:34.240]  Yes, and that number again is 212-209-2950.
[51:34.580 --> 51:36.480]  Country code one for those of you outside the US.
[51:36.860 --> 51:42.140]  And I think it's definitely worth stressing again that if you're listening to the station, you are it.
[51:42.140 --> 51:44.320]  This is the only source of income for the station.
[51:44.500 --> 51:45.900]  We don't sell ads.
[51:46.000 --> 51:49.860]  We don't tell you what drinks you should drink or what games you should play or anything.
[51:50.400 --> 51:53.120]  All we do is tell you what it is we have to say.
[51:54.640 --> 51:59.660]  And it's definitely something that you're not going to find anywhere else on the FM dial.
[52:01.100 --> 52:05.700]  And it's not something that we could duplicate again if it was lost.
[52:06.260 --> 52:11.320]  You listeners have kept the station going for decades now, and you're the only thing that has.
[52:11.320 --> 52:13.160]  Because we don't do so much as a bake sale around here.
[52:13.520 --> 52:14.100]  It's just you.
[52:14.240 --> 52:16.940]  Have we given up on getting back to Red Hat and Jim's?
[52:17.700 --> 52:19.140]  We just lost them.
[52:19.380 --> 52:27.120]  We have had some blinking on the line from Bernie, but it doesn't appear to actually be correlated with anything understandable.
[52:27.140 --> 52:30.120]  Okay, that sounds very strange and unclear.
[52:30.680 --> 52:32.620]  What do you mean we've had some blinking from Bernie?
[52:32.660 --> 52:32.780]  Blinking.
[52:32.880 --> 52:35.640]  Blinking the light on the telephone system blinks.
[52:35.640 --> 52:38.540]  Oh, okay, so have you picked it up?
[52:38.660 --> 52:40.880]  Yeah, I picked it up, but heard nothing.
[52:41.420 --> 52:43.300]  Oh, so who knows?
[52:43.340 --> 52:47.680]  He could be in a cell of some sort where basically there's no audio being transmitted.
[52:48.620 --> 52:49.640]  Well, we don't know.
[52:49.780 --> 52:50.520]  There's mystery now.
[52:50.640 --> 52:51.220]  There's intrigue.
[52:51.420 --> 52:56.720]  Bernie is entering the country and is calling us as he entered the country, but yet we can't hear audio.
[52:57.360 --> 53:01.920]  Sadly, Bernie is the only one of us who knows Morse code, so we can't understand his blinking lights.
[53:03.360 --> 53:08.620]  Yeah, maybe it's just a blinking light thing, and we should be fascinated by it, because we love those blinking lights.
[53:09.360 --> 53:16.180]  We don't get to end on a cliffhanger too often at this show, so tune in next week for the exciting conclusion as to what happened to Bernie.
[53:16.620 --> 53:22.020]  But, you know, the lights that blink that really make us happy are those lights over on the left side of the room that ring in the tally room.
[53:22.560 --> 53:25.920]  And we need to have a lot of those lights blinking right now.
[53:26.320 --> 53:29.340]  Rob, can you tell me how many of those lights are blinking as I speak right now?
[53:29.500 --> 53:31.520]  Emmanuel, right now we have three of those lights.
[53:31.880 --> 53:32.460]  That's good.
[53:32.600 --> 53:33.360]  That makes me happy.
[53:33.700 --> 53:37.220]  But imagine how happy I'd sound if there were six, huh?
[53:37.600 --> 53:39.320]  I think we would all sound very happy.
[53:39.360 --> 53:41.920]  And you've only got a few minutes left.
[53:41.920 --> 53:45.220]  We can only offer our premiums right now while we're broadcasting.
[53:45.300 --> 53:47.740]  So I know a lot of you like to wait till the last minute.
[53:48.020 --> 53:49.320]  It's coming up on that last minute.
[53:49.320 --> 53:54.980]  Okay, well, the number to make those lights blink is 212-209-2950.
[53:55.140 --> 54:07.620]  And the premium that Rob has mentioned is a unique premium that's only being offered tonight during this show, a 10-DVD set of highlights of Hacking at Random, the Dutch Hacker Camp that just concluded.
[54:08.080 --> 54:14.280]  And you'll hear all kinds, you'll see, it's a DVD, so you'll see all kinds of talks that we've discussed over the last hour.
[54:14.860 --> 54:17.420]  And you'll also get the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[54:17.600 --> 54:19.920]  All that for a pledge of only $75.
[54:20.360 --> 54:21.620]  So that's a great deal.
[54:21.820 --> 54:22.240]  It's amazing.
[54:22.640 --> 54:23.680]  It really shouldn't be a deal.
[54:23.860 --> 54:26.400]  It should be supporting the radio station.
[54:26.440 --> 54:35.380]  And we're giving you a big thank you in this way by sharing with you what we've experienced ourselves and hopefully inspiring you to get involved with certain things in the future as well.
[54:35.620 --> 54:45.620]  But again, the only opportunity you have to do this is calling 212-209-2950, pledging $75 in the next few minutes, because after that, this is not going to be available.
[54:46.060 --> 54:53.320]  And of course, for a pledge of just $25, you will still get the exclusive off-the-hook t-shirt, which you cannot get anywhere else, you cannot get by any other means.
[54:53.940 --> 54:55.280]  Yeah, I guess we should have mentioned that, too.
[54:55.340 --> 54:58.040]  If you pledge $25 and above, you'll get the off-the-hook t-shirt.
[54:58.240 --> 55:02.540]  So by no means are people who pledge less excluded from that.
[55:02.760 --> 55:07.380]  But again, we're trying to make it to $1,000 this hour, and it takes a lot of work to do that.
[55:07.500 --> 55:09.160]  And again, we know this is the third week.
[55:09.400 --> 55:10.800]  We're supposed to be on for two weeks.
[55:10.980 --> 55:27.580]  But let's consider this a good thing because, well, more people have been calling over the last couple of weeks, and that means the station is getting into an area where we can actually start making some better decisions and expanding our programming in various ways,
[55:27.760 --> 55:29.900]  and something that will make our listeners happy.
[55:30.140 --> 55:34.160]  212-209-2950, please give a call in the last few minutes of the show.
[55:35.900 --> 55:43.540]  There's just only a few minutes left until the top of the hour when these premiums cease to be available.
[55:44.300 --> 55:46.060]  212-209-2950.
[55:47.480 --> 55:50.740]  So give us a call, and we'd really appreciate your support.
[55:51.180 --> 55:56.280]  I'd like to know if any last words about this amazing event that so many of us were part of.
[55:56.360 --> 55:58.620]  Too bad we couldn't hear from Bernie, although we did see his blinking lights.
[55:58.740 --> 55:59.240]  That's kind of nice.
[55:59.580 --> 56:01.960]  And we heard something from Red Hat in June.
[56:02.100 --> 56:09.560]  I'm sorry we weren't able to finish their thoughts, but I'm sure next week we'll be able to hear in the studio what other things went on.
[56:09.820 --> 56:17.320]  But those of you back there in New York right now, specifically Mike and Voltaire, any concluding thoughts on the conference?
[56:17.380 --> 56:21.100]  I think, Mike, you didn't really go into too much detail at the beginning of the show.
[56:21.220 --> 56:25.320]  I know you were busy trying to make phone calls, so maybe you want to say a little bit more and Voltaire as well.
[56:25.500 --> 56:34.640]  I think the thing that really struck me about this conference is how good at it we as a community have got, how smoothly things ran.
[56:35.320 --> 56:54.680]  I was talking to Aldert, who's one of the organizers, we had him on the show last week, midway through the conference, and he said there have been so few problems because the community just takes care of any problem that comes up before it can even raise to the level of coming to the attention of Aldert.
[56:55.840 --> 57:03.600]  So I think it's really amazing what we're able to build in just a short period of time, and for such a short period of time.
[57:05.340 --> 57:06.000]  Voltaire, anything?
[57:06.780 --> 57:10.860]  I'd have to agree, and I can't wait until the next hope to see that happen again.
[57:11.420 --> 57:12.360]  That's right, the next hope.
[57:12.540 --> 57:15.600]  Well, we'll have details on that coming up in future shows.
[57:15.600 --> 57:21.380]  But again, for the last time on this show, we need your support, 212-209-2950.
[57:21.380 --> 57:22.960]  This is our last fundraising show.
[57:23.140 --> 57:25.060]  This is the last time this premium will be offered.
[57:25.260 --> 57:31.500]  So get your 10-DVD set of Highlights of Horror, the Dutch Hacker Camp, which just concluded.
[57:31.720 --> 57:35.640]  And you'll also get the off-the-hook t-shirt, 212-209-2950.
[57:36.080 --> 57:40.020]  Yes, and Emmanuel, your triumphant return to the studio is next week, is it not?
[57:40.220 --> 57:41.620]  I hope it's triumphant, yeah.
[57:42.120 --> 57:47.160]  I'm going to be in Glasgow for a day or two, then heading out to Edinburgh, and then heading back to the States.
[57:47.300 --> 57:49.300]  And we'll see if the States are happy to see me.
[57:49.540 --> 57:56.240]  Okay, I, for one, will be happy to see you, because while you've been away, I've broken so many things on this console, I need you to see if you can fix some of them.
[57:56.720 --> 57:57.340]  Oh, boy.
[57:57.920 --> 58:02.780]  Well, you might be accosted by some people as you leave the studio who want more information about what exactly you did.
[58:02.880 --> 58:04.500]  But, yeah, I think we'll be fine.
[58:06.000 --> 58:07.880]  Okay, and that is just about all the time we have.
[58:08.780 --> 58:10.060]  For Off the Hook, this is Rob T.
[58:10.140 --> 58:10.400]  Firefly.
[58:10.520 --> 58:12.980]  Thank you very much for listening, and thank you for supporting us.
[58:13.140 --> 58:13.340]  Good night.
[01:00:33.620 --> 01:00:36.300]  Here is a secret disease.
[01:00:37.180 --> 01:00:40.840]  For love you no matter where you are.
[01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:43.500]  The world's more than many a dream.
[01:00:43.500 --> 01:00:43.960]  Huh.
[01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:46.820]  Hey, out there in Redidio land.
[01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:51.180]  This is WBAI New York 99.5 FM, also streaming on the web at wbai.org.
[01:00:51.180 --> 01:00:51.200]  It will ship.
[01:00:51.220 --> 01:00:51.260]  From now on, I don't?
[01:00:51.260 --> 01:00:51.420]  So being summoned to ourります to игры.
[01:00:51.420 --> 01:00:51.780]  We're there with honour supporters here to participate with the world,