[00:00.000 --> 00:08.360]  Aziz Fall is a political scientist based in Montreal with Guerrilla, Group for Research and Initiatives for the Liberation of Africa.
[00:08.580 --> 00:13.080]  He joined us to give some context about the political crisis in the Ivory Coast.
[00:13.280 --> 00:14.560]  Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:14.860 --> 00:15.260]  Yeah, pleasure.
[00:15.560 --> 00:15.820]  Thank you.
[00:16.140 --> 00:17.640]  And that wraps up today's program.
[00:17.900 --> 00:19.580]  This is Free Speech Radio News.
[00:19.720 --> 00:20.380]  Thanks for listening.
[00:20.660 --> 00:22.140]  In New York, I'm Doran Marina.
[00:32.060 --> 00:34.640]  And this is WBAI in New York.
[00:34.840 --> 00:36.920]  It's 7 o'clock on a Wednesday.
[00:37.440 --> 00:37.960]  Time.
[00:38.670 --> 00:39.560]  We're off the hook.
[00:39.700 --> 00:40.260]  Oh, hi.
[00:40.560 --> 00:40.750]  Oops.
[00:41.740 --> 00:43.180]  The wrong thing came up.
[00:43.700 --> 00:44.360]  I'm sorry.
[00:44.480 --> 00:45.160]  But you know what?
[00:45.200 --> 00:47.580]  We're going to know what that's all about in a couple of minutes.
[00:48.100 --> 00:50.000]  Yeah, it's because the timer isn't on there.
[00:50.180 --> 00:50.700]  There we go.
[00:50.820 --> 00:52.040]  That's our theme, off the hook.
[00:55.370 --> 00:57.010]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:57.510 --> 00:59.550]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:00.710 --> 01:02.510]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:03.130 --> 01:05.010]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:05.850 --> 01:07.870]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:10.400 --> 01:13.320]  But really, mom, for the best, it's back the worst.
[01:14.110 --> 01:15.830]  I hope that's understood.
[01:16.130 --> 01:16.820]  But really, no.
[02:04.020 --> 02:05.300]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:05.380 --> 02:06.120]  The program is off the hook.
[02:06.220 --> 02:08.640]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:08.640 --> 02:10.840]  Yes, we were preempted last week.
[02:11.000 --> 02:13.660]  But we were unpreempted right before the show.
[02:13.680 --> 02:16.360]  So we didn't have enough time to come in and do a program, unfortunately.
[02:16.960 --> 02:19.220]  So yeah, we could have been here last week, but we weren't.
[02:19.520 --> 02:20.460]  Something else was here instead.
[02:20.560 --> 02:21.440]  But we're here this week.
[02:21.600 --> 02:22.820]  And Mike is here too.
[02:22.960 --> 02:24.720]  So what you're saying is we weren't on last week.
[02:24.840 --> 02:26.000]  We were definitely not on last week.
[02:26.000 --> 02:29.000]  I'm saying we could have been, but no use crying over spilt milk.
[02:29.560 --> 02:30.160]  All right, fine.
[02:30.160 --> 02:31.380]  Or milk that has yet to be thrown.
[02:32.260 --> 02:33.600]  Also joining us is Gus.
[02:33.960 --> 02:34.580]  Oh, hi.
[02:36.560 --> 02:38.320]  And it's not going to match what we heard before.
[02:38.440 --> 02:38.700]  No.
[02:38.940 --> 02:39.580]  And Dot Red.
[02:39.880 --> 02:40.340]  Hey there.
[02:40.800 --> 02:41.160]  Voltaire.
[02:41.380 --> 02:43.000]  Not even going to bother with his clever thing.
[02:43.660 --> 02:44.060]  Yeah, good.
[02:44.180 --> 02:44.320]  Okay.
[02:44.500 --> 02:44.960]  Glad you didn't.
[02:45.060 --> 02:45.380]  And Jim.
[02:45.700 --> 02:45.820]  Hello.
[02:56.000 --> 02:57.260]  He's actually much more talkative than us.
[02:57.280 --> 02:58.160]  Oh, he's not there.
[02:58.520 --> 02:59.340]  I suggest you...
[02:59.340 --> 03:01.360]  You know, my pocket is buzzing.
[03:01.400 --> 03:04.360]  Go back to the phone and figure out how to call Philadelphia there.
[03:05.100 --> 03:07.840]  And while you're doing that, let me introduce our special guest.
[03:07.940 --> 03:09.280]  Jason Scott has joined us in the studio.
[03:09.540 --> 03:10.140]  Yeah, hello there.
[03:10.440 --> 03:12.120]  And Jason, where did you hail from today?
[03:13.260 --> 03:14.060]  Or recently?
[03:14.260 --> 03:15.600]  I was around in New York.
[03:16.980 --> 03:22.780]  And I normally am in Boston and coming to stay in New York in the future.
[03:23.220 --> 03:23.620]  Forever.
[03:24.100 --> 03:28.660]  Well, I mean, until I find a new place, I guess sometime, but I mean, you know.
[03:28.760 --> 03:29.660]  It's a good place to settle.
[03:29.760 --> 03:31.300]  Never say for forever.
[03:31.480 --> 03:35.180]  I was born in New York, so I'm returning home, one might say.
[03:35.500 --> 03:39.860]  People not familiar with your work might be asking who in God's name is Jason Scott.
[03:39.880 --> 03:46.860]  And maybe this is a good time to tell about your text files project that you've been working on for so many years.
[03:47.440 --> 03:51.680]  So many years that it could have its own text file-like project to document its history.
[03:51.840 --> 03:53.540]  Yeah, you know, that's actually what's happening.
[03:53.620 --> 04:03.260]  Now, you know, when I started out in 1998 with that project, it was because the World Wide Web had been around for a few years, was considered, quote-unquote, mainstream.
[04:03.960 --> 04:09.740]  And I thought about computer bulletin board systems of the 1970s and 80s and 90s.
[04:09.800 --> 04:14.240]  And I said, man, somebody should really have a place where you can get all that history.
[04:14.240 --> 04:16.160]  And I went and looked around and nobody had it.
[04:16.400 --> 04:18.280]  And I thought, well, I guess it's going to be me.
[04:18.400 --> 04:22.780]  So I went and started a project to assemble all this old stuff.
[04:23.560 --> 04:25.480]  And here it is 10 years later.
[04:25.480 --> 04:31.440]  And I have an enormous amount of data because everyone said, oh, I guess you can have it.
[04:31.860 --> 04:36.220]  And over time, I've become kind of the general computer historian.
[04:36.220 --> 04:45.820]  So textfiles.com has been around long enough that kids who first went online when they were like 10 will write me and say, I'm going to college because I learned stuff from your site.
[04:46.120 --> 04:47.660]  Isn't that scary when people do that?
[04:47.780 --> 04:48.020]  Yeah.
[04:48.180 --> 04:53.780]  When they're like, oh, you know, that old warhorse, that old site of yours, it's always been there for me.
[04:54.680 --> 04:56.800]  And you've influenced their lives somehow.
[04:56.800 --> 04:58.560]  And they're going in a particular direction because of you.
[04:58.560 --> 04:59.040]  Yeah.
[04:59.360 --> 05:07.460]  Although I like the hope it's that I help them see their goal as opposed to I've built an master army of...
[05:07.460 --> 05:13.320]  So now if folks have old floppy disks and printouts of BBSs of the past, are you still interested in receiving them?
[05:13.380 --> 05:15.360]  I am very much interested in that.
[05:15.440 --> 05:19.280]  In fact, somebody said, hey, do you want some old magazines and stuff?
[05:19.420 --> 05:22.360]  And it ended up turning into a truckload.
[05:22.780 --> 05:25.800]  It was one of the co-founders of the Free Software Foundation.
[05:26.260 --> 05:31.100]  And he wanted to clear out his barn and nobody would take all of it.
[05:31.340 --> 05:33.980]  Some people were like, oh, yeah, I want this one valuable magazine.
[05:34.360 --> 05:35.480]  That's what people are like, right?
[05:35.540 --> 05:38.100]  Give me the one valuable magazine, but not all of it.
[05:38.220 --> 05:39.280]  I said, I'll take all of it.
[05:39.380 --> 05:40.720]  And one truckload later.
[05:40.880 --> 05:44.460]  And someone just mailed me, I think, yesterday saying, I want to send you some magazines.
[05:44.580 --> 05:47.100]  And he's like, yeah, it's 425 pounds.
[05:47.920 --> 05:48.240]  Wow.
[05:48.260 --> 05:48.860]  I'm like, okay.
[05:49.340 --> 05:50.140]  You have a truck.
[05:50.240 --> 05:50.700]  You have a semi.
[05:50.800 --> 05:51.160]  What do you have?
[05:51.600 --> 05:53.080]  Well, people are mailing them to me.
[05:53.080 --> 06:00.020]  But right now I have a storage container, a 40-foot storage container called the Information Cube, the textfiles.com library Information Cube.
[06:00.340 --> 06:07.900]  That is a massive, you know, collection of crates of old magazines that I've been sorting and describing online.
[06:08.100 --> 06:10.320]  Isn't it amazing how quickly things disappear?
[06:10.800 --> 06:14.820]  Something you think would be around forever, just you can't find a single copy of it anymore.
[06:14.980 --> 06:15.120]  Yeah.
[06:15.200 --> 06:22.060]  That is one of those things that people don't really, I think, grab onto, especially if it's something from their own lives.
[06:22.420 --> 06:26.540]  Like, we could all sit around and say, of course, there's no more televisions from the 50s.
[06:26.600 --> 06:27.340]  That doesn't make any sense.
[06:27.420 --> 06:27.780]  Right, right.
[06:27.960 --> 06:37.980]  But then you'll say, you know, there aren't really very many Mattel electronics, you know, old games like, you know, Merlin or whatever, and you can't find them.
[06:38.060 --> 06:38.580]  And they'll be like, what?
[06:38.640 --> 06:39.080]  Of course not.
[06:39.280 --> 06:40.640]  You can go anywhere and find those.
[06:40.780 --> 06:41.720]  And the answer is really no.
[06:41.980 --> 06:46.800]  And so by collecting them, it at least enables us to decide what to do next.
[06:46.920 --> 06:48.800]  You know, people are like, what are you intending to do?
[06:48.800 --> 06:54.240]  And I'm like, I'm just the guy that somebody in 2025 wishes was around.
[06:54.700 --> 06:55.920]  You know, that's what I do.
[06:56.500 --> 06:57.340]  I'm that guy.
[06:57.340 --> 07:02.880]  Just like, I'm like, oh, thank goodness there was somebody in the early 80s who did this and this, and I was able to get a copy of it.
[07:03.180 --> 07:05.100]  So for me, that's all I'm doing.
[07:05.180 --> 07:06.280]  I'm kind of the way station.
[07:06.420 --> 07:09.980]  We're going to talk to you in 2025 and see how people feel then about what you're doing.
[07:10.480 --> 07:12.300]  So if people want to send you things, how do they do it?
[07:12.300 --> 07:20.540]  Um, well, my official mailing address for textfiles.com is 738 Main Street, number 383.
[07:20.860 --> 07:26.820]  That's in Waltham, W-A-L-T-H-A-M, Massachusetts, 02451.
[07:27.600 --> 07:28.620]  It's not my house.
[07:28.620 --> 07:30.260]  It's a UPS store, so don't worry.
[07:30.500 --> 07:32.140]  Go ahead and send what you need to.
[07:32.140 --> 07:35.000]  Um, I get packages all the time from people.
[07:35.420 --> 07:39.240]  Uh, if somebody sends me something I already have, then I have two of them.
[07:39.820 --> 07:45.200]  So it's not a case of, you know, people are like, I should go through it, decide what to send you.
[07:45.280 --> 07:46.660]  And I'm like, nah, just send it all.
[07:46.800 --> 07:48.860]  Otherwise, it'll go back up in the attic for another day.
[07:48.960 --> 07:50.560]  I wonder if they want to send you something online.
[07:50.940 --> 07:53.480]  Um, jason at textfiles.com.
[07:54.260 --> 07:54.620]  Okay.
[07:54.860 --> 07:55.720]  Works all the time.
[07:55.720 --> 08:09.640]  I bet a lot of our listeners have, uh, things they've been stashing, uh, electronically or, uh, papers stacked up to the ceiling of various, uh, um, old magazines or, or just, I mean, you're interested in, in anything having to do with, uh, with the computer world.
[08:09.800 --> 08:09.920]  Right.
[08:10.460 --> 08:16.300]  Um, uh, Ben, one of your staff members sent me an enormous amount of stuff he had collected.
[08:16.480 --> 08:16.620]  Really?
[08:16.780 --> 08:24.940]  And from it, I was able to determine that he lived in suburbia and really liked punk and wanted to be a part of all these scenes.
[08:25.340 --> 08:31.500]  And so he subscribed to, you know, Ben is dead and all these punk zines and, and, and he had piles of them.
[08:31.580 --> 08:33.900]  And so I took them and, and, and, and said, okay.
[08:34.120 --> 08:36.280]  So you'll, punk magazines too, you'll collect.
[08:36.300 --> 08:36.540]  Oh yeah.
[08:36.620 --> 08:37.900]  Not just computer underground things.
[08:38.240 --> 08:40.900]  No, for me, like I said, it's a way station thing.
[08:41.000 --> 08:48.460]  It's like, I'll take it and I'll make sure it gets to a good home because I'm constantly in contact with other people who have collections.
[08:48.680 --> 08:52.220]  But if I have a room full of the wall street journal, every single issue, you don't want that, do you?
[08:52.540 --> 08:55.280]  No, but I don't mind being talked to, to help you find a place.
[08:55.780 --> 09:07.280]  There was some guy who had like a lifetime collection of science fiction magazines and he was going to put them up on eBay and I contacted him and some others did and convinced him maybe that's not a good idea.
[09:07.580 --> 09:18.660]  And he ended up having, we, we made enough of a noise about it that a college has now made a collection in his name and, and, you know, he, he basically was going to go into a home and he knew this.
[09:19.120 --> 09:22.100]  And so he was like, I just wanted to go to a good home and intact.
[09:22.320 --> 09:23.320]  And so there you go.
[09:23.500 --> 09:28.420]  So I'm, you know, uh, people go, Oh, here's a guy who collects things.
[09:28.560 --> 09:30.220]  He'll know what to do with this collection of things.
[09:30.380 --> 09:32.540]  I have, I don't mind having that conversation.
[09:32.540 --> 09:34.020]  I have that conversation a lot.
[09:34.280 --> 09:34.740]  All right.
[09:34.940 --> 09:40.720]  Well, we're going to be getting back to you in just a little bit, talking about your, your newest project, which is also amazing and fascinating.
[09:41.120 --> 09:44.760]  Uh, but, uh, let me remind the folks, uh, tonight is a fundraising show.
[09:44.920 --> 09:46.380]  I believe it's our last one.
[09:46.500 --> 09:50.680]  I think it's going to be all over next week, all over one way or another, hopefully in the positive sense.
[09:51.000 --> 09:54.100]  Uh, so we're offering some special things tonight.
[09:54.100 --> 10:00.720]  Now, the first thing we want to tell folks about is, um, a project that our own Gus is involved in, has been for, for some time.
[10:01.100 --> 10:04.920]  And it's really, uh, kind of, uh, fascinating, interesting, relevant.
[10:05.760 --> 10:16.240]  And, uh, well, why don't you describe it in, uh, maybe some, some more, um, uh, I guess, accurate words as to just what it is that you were looking to do when you started this project?
[10:16.420 --> 10:31.760]  So, um, I'm studying media literacy at school and, um, I decided at some point I wanted to make a show about media literacy because frequently you don't sort of get video content about media literacy with all due respect to the Media Education Foundation up in,
[10:31.860 --> 10:42.280]  uh, Massachusetts and a couple other places just because, like, especially if you're gonna do advertised video content, you can't exactly be like, here's something telling you to critique advertising and now here's some advertising.
[10:42.480 --> 10:43.380]  Buy our products.
[10:43.500 --> 10:44.680]  You know, it sort of doesn't work that way.
[10:45.100 --> 10:47.260]  So, um, I started working on that.
[10:47.360 --> 10:49.760]  It's also not something that you really necessarily get out of, like, PBS.
[10:49.980 --> 10:54.880]  Media literacy is not really their kind of thing as much aside from the Don't Buy It website, which if you're interested, you should also check.
[10:55.860 --> 10:56.040]  Um...
[10:56.040 --> 10:56.820]  What is that website?
[10:57.180 --> 10:58.000]  Don't Buy It.
[10:58.080 --> 11:01.900]  I don't remember what the URL is, but it's one of PBS's sites.
[11:01.940 --> 11:04.900]  And they've got some pretty good media literacy stuff, but it tends to be aimed at younger kids.
[11:05.140 --> 11:13.960]  And I was really wanting to do something on YouTube where we could just sort of engage with people who are doing fandom kind of stuff online already anyway, which is a form of critique in its own way.
[11:14.140 --> 11:23.140]  And I also wanted to balance out, um, critique, you know, sort of saying, what does it do when you have to advertise and you have to make sure that you're not making your advertisers angry?
[11:23.760 --> 11:27.880]  Um, but at the same time, you know, what if you're a really big fan of some show?
[11:28.000 --> 11:29.340]  Like, you're part of a science fiction fandom.
[11:29.500 --> 11:31.020]  You do cosplay or something like that.
[11:31.140 --> 11:32.360]  Like, how do you balance these two things out?
[11:32.460 --> 11:37.380]  So, hence, The Media Show, which is our show on YouTube, youtube.com slash The Media Show.
[11:37.420 --> 11:40.720]  Now, actually, I'll confess that is what we heard at the beginning of the show, a snippet of it.
[11:40.800 --> 11:41.680]  We're going to hear a lot more of that.
[11:41.780 --> 11:45.460]  But basically, um, is it fair to say The Media Show is a puppet show?
[11:45.820 --> 11:49.800]  It is a show with puppets, um, but it's sort of, uh, post...
[11:49.800 --> 11:50.980]  I think that makes it a puppet show.
[11:51.180 --> 11:54.940]  Yeah, but at the same time, I mean, when you think puppet show, you do think that you maybe should give this to children.
[11:55.080 --> 12:01.440]  But this is really sort of a post-Avenue queue, post-Meet the Feebles, post-Team America, World Police kind of a puppet show.
[12:01.640 --> 12:02.900]  I think you should give it to kids.
[12:03.000 --> 12:04.100]  I think kids would get something out of it.
[12:04.100 --> 12:04.700]  I hope so, too.
[12:04.780 --> 12:07.900]  But the thing is, when we actually try to give it to them through school, that tends to go wrong.
[12:08.120 --> 12:08.280]  Well, no, no.
[12:08.340 --> 12:09.400]  You give it to them on street corners.
[12:09.400 --> 12:10.880]  If you have a child that... Right, exactly.
[12:11.020 --> 12:13.820]  So, if you have a child that you want to corrupt, this might be the show for you.
[12:14.100 --> 12:16.700]  Um, but we also, I mean, we really, all of our episodes are very different.
[12:16.840 --> 12:22.360]  We have some episodes which are safe to give to your Aunt Mabel, and they really are for Aunt Mabel.
[12:22.440 --> 12:37.460]  Like, we've got one about etiquette, online etiquette, netiquette specifically, um, where, um, we talk about wearing white gloves and being polite to your elders and, you know, holding the door open for people and how, similarly, when you're online, you shouldn't forward as many chain letters as you possibly can to people because that's rude.
[12:37.580 --> 12:38.280]  That's called netiquette.
[12:38.360 --> 12:40.960]  I'd like to play an excerpt from, uh, from one of your shows.
[12:41.200 --> 12:43.080]  Um, this is about, uh, Snopes.
[12:43.660 --> 12:44.580]  Snopes.com, yes.
[12:44.600 --> 12:45.980]  Tell us something about what's going on here.
[12:46.500 --> 12:51.920]  Um, so basically, we did a couple of things that are sort of like PSAs, and we were hoping that people would sort of pass them around a little bit.
[12:52.240 --> 12:56.620]  Um, and we're just doing a little promo for Snopes.com, or Snopes, is it Snopes.org?
[12:56.800 --> 12:59.620]  I think it's Snopes.org, um, to... I think it's .com, well, you know what?
[12:59.680 --> 13:00.200]  We should ask Snopes.
[13:00.200 --> 13:02.080]  Well, listen, actually, it'll, it'll be in the clip, I think.
[13:02.460 --> 13:07.580]  But, um, uh, just suggesting to people that, um, they follow the logo, Snopes before you send.
[13:07.680 --> 13:09.480]  If an email's too good to be true, check Snopes.
[13:09.660 --> 13:12.760]  Now, the interesting thing is, and, uh, we are offering this as a premium.
[13:13.040 --> 13:21.900]  If people want to call in right away, 212-209-2950, you'll get, uh, three DVDs of the media show, uh, produced by our own Gus here.
[13:22.500 --> 13:29.760]  Uh, and, um, you'll, you'll hear all kinds of, um, of, of interesting, um, uh, topics discussed, but you'll also see them.
[13:29.860 --> 13:33.260]  You'll also see, uh, all sorts of little snippets.
[13:33.360 --> 13:39.840]  There's, there's, uh, fair use, uh, evoked here many, many times, where all of a sudden you'll cut to something from the 1950s, a video piece.
[13:40.320 --> 13:45.100]  And, um, it, it sort of reminds me of what Negative Land does sometimes, with just, uh, going all over the place.
[13:45.280 --> 13:45.900]  But there's a point.
[13:46.000 --> 13:46.960]  There's a lesson to be learned.
[13:47.080 --> 13:48.700]  There's something educational here.
[13:48.880 --> 13:53.200]  And it's done in a very interesting way that, uh, all kinds of people would, um, would get something out of.
[13:53.320 --> 13:58.160]  It's not going to come across in the audio at nearly as much as the video will, will present it.
[13:58.200 --> 14:00.420]  So it's important to, to, uh, to point out.
[14:00.740 --> 14:03.580]  Uh, so, uh, let's listen to this piece on Snopes.
[14:03.680 --> 14:07.040]  And again, the phone number is 212-209-2950 for a pledge of $75.
[14:07.560 --> 14:12.260]  Uh, you'll get, uh, three DVDs filled with, um, media show, um, episodes.
[14:12.420 --> 14:13.600]  They're all about, uh, how long?
[14:13.880 --> 14:14.740]  Um, they're pretty short.
[14:14.860 --> 14:18.780]  They're mostly under five minutes, but, um, we also have a little bit of extra content about the making of the show.
[14:19.120 --> 14:19.220]  Uh-huh.
[14:19.340 --> 14:19.700]  Yeah.
[14:19.800 --> 14:21.400]  And there's a whole bunch, a whole bunch of material.
[14:21.560 --> 14:24.760]  Let's listen to the, uh, to the first clip all about Snopes.
[14:25.140 --> 14:25.820]  Oh, hi.
[14:26.040 --> 14:29.440]  We are making a public service announcement.
[14:29.940 --> 14:32.780]  Because we are worried that you may be stupid.
[14:33.140 --> 14:38.220]  And according to the 80s, PSAs are how you prevent stupid.
[14:38.700 --> 14:39.760]  Can you write your name?
[14:39.900 --> 14:40.340]  Of course.
[14:40.500 --> 14:42.160]  You have to learn how letter by letter.
[14:42.320 --> 14:44.060]  And I kept at it until I learned.
[14:44.300 --> 14:46.880]  Doing the right thing makes you a superstar.
[14:48.680 --> 14:49.000]  Jam.
[14:49.440 --> 14:50.160]  Hit it, Erna.
[14:51.000 --> 14:52.140]  Oh, wow.
[14:52.660 --> 14:57.640]  Bill Gates is gonna send me a dollar for every person I forward this to.
[14:57.960 --> 15:02.500]  And Applebee's is gonna give me a $50 gift certificate, too.
[15:02.800 --> 15:05.640]  And I guess we should stop using the Swiffer.
[15:05.940 --> 15:07.800]  It's gonna kill the dog.
[15:08.440 --> 15:11.040]  Don't take any business cards from strangers.
[15:11.040 --> 15:14.080]  They may be soaked in a date rape drug.
[15:14.460 --> 15:17.300]  And, oh, this is so sad.
[15:17.740 --> 15:19.880]  Sesame Street is being canceled.
[15:20.180 --> 15:22.980]  I should send these emails to everyone so that they will be warned.
[15:23.240 --> 15:23.700]  Stop!
[15:25.080 --> 15:28.300]  It's Weena from TV's The Media Show.
[15:28.440 --> 15:28.740]  Gosh.
[15:28.740 --> 15:32.280]  Did you check to see if any of these emails are true?
[15:32.660 --> 15:36.660]  But, Weena, I trust the person who sent these to me.
[15:36.800 --> 15:38.800]  But who did they get it from?
[15:39.020 --> 15:41.940]  Oh, well, I got it from Agnes.
[15:41.940 --> 15:43.100]  She got it from Jim.
[15:43.100 --> 15:46.440]  We all agree it must have been Louise who gave it to him.
[15:46.680 --> 15:48.280]  She got it from Harry.
[15:48.440 --> 15:53.400]  Always check Snopes.com or FactCheck.org before you send that forward.
[15:53.640 --> 15:58.100]  They show their work so you know where those emails are coming from.
[15:58.580 --> 15:59.060]  Wow!
[15:59.360 --> 16:03.360]  Snopes.com and FactCheck.org are amazing.
[16:03.940 --> 16:10.640]  I guess blondes aren't going extinct and Obama never tried to ban semi-automatic weapons.
[16:11.080 --> 16:13.820]  Remember, Snopes before you send.
[16:13.980 --> 16:14.960]  Now I know.
[16:15.240 --> 16:17.240]  And knowing is half a superstar.
[16:17.580 --> 16:18.320]  G.I.
[16:18.480 --> 16:18.880]  Jam!
[16:21.420 --> 16:22.220]  Oh, wow.
[16:22.820 --> 16:23.100]  Okay.
[16:23.280 --> 16:28.640]  Now, again, you won't really appreciate the true value of this without seeing it.
[16:29.380 --> 16:30.300]  It's priceless.
[16:30.680 --> 16:37.560]  And Gus, you also are able to bring in people from the computer world to discuss various things.
[16:37.580 --> 16:39.740]  It's really kind of funny to see them interacting with the puppets.
[16:39.740 --> 16:41.140]  But you had Mitch Altman there at one point.
[16:41.780 --> 16:42.460]  I'm sorry.
[16:42.680 --> 16:43.380]  You're not coming up.
[16:43.380 --> 16:43.880]  Sorry about that.
[16:44.020 --> 16:44.340]  Oh, there you are.
[16:44.480 --> 16:58.720]  One of our major goals for the show, for me specifically, is to take a lot of the great stuff that I've learned from 2600, from Hope, and all kinds of places from this show as well, and bring it to people who wouldn't necessarily be comfortable going up to stuff that's related to hackers.
[16:59.340 --> 17:11.300]  So, for example, this might be something that you might want to pick up and then pass on to your mom or pass on to a cousin who is a little bit antsy about this stuff, just because it's sort of being presented in a way that is a little bit more friendly and asking a lot more questions.
[17:11.500 --> 17:15.920]  So, like, we talked to Mitch Altman, but we asked him a few more questions about why he does what he does.
[17:16.020 --> 17:18.940]  Or we talked to... we had some stuff about Steve Rombaum from Hope.
[17:19.620 --> 17:22.060]  You didn't actually get him to come in and interact with puppets.
[17:22.160 --> 17:24.320]  No, we borrowed some clips for educational purposes.
[17:24.440 --> 17:27.120]  I couldn't imagine Steve doing that, but it would be amazing to see.
[17:27.200 --> 17:27.820]  That would be pretty amazing.
[17:27.860 --> 17:29.840]  We've got James Grimmelman, who we've had on here before.
[17:29.840 --> 17:40.560]  He talks a little bit about fair use with one of the puppets sort of interrogating him because we actually had something that got taken down because of fair use claims on... or DMCA claims, sorry, on YouTube.
[17:41.040 --> 17:46.180]  So, it's all stuff that's much more accessible to teachers, it'd be accessible to your relatives, whoever.
[17:46.520 --> 17:49.420]  Now, the thing that got removed from YouTube, is that on the DVD?
[17:49.860 --> 17:51.540]  Yes, I am planning to put that on the DVD.
[17:51.780 --> 17:53.640]  That is, as a matter of fact, the Greens...
[17:54.800 --> 17:56.040]  Well, let's just say...
[17:56.040 --> 17:56.040]  Go ahead, go ahead.
[17:56.080 --> 17:59.700]  I'm just worried that if I talk about it, maybe they'll come after us with a DMCA claim.
[17:59.820 --> 18:00.660]  Are we up for this?
[18:00.680 --> 18:01.420]  Oh, wouldn't that be something?
[18:01.560 --> 18:03.440]  They took down Cryptone.org, I heard.
[18:03.680 --> 18:04.800]  For National Organization for Marriage?
[18:04.980 --> 18:07.020]  No, not for that, but for something else.
[18:07.120 --> 18:08.760]  We'll get into that probably in the weeks ahead.
[18:09.200 --> 18:10.020]  But, no, go ahead.
[18:10.100 --> 18:17.100]  Yeah, the National Organization for Marriage is green screens because we suggested a green screen challenge on the order of Stephen Colbert's green screen challenge.
[18:17.320 --> 18:23.500]  Now, the National Organization for Marriage is the organization that works to restrict the number of marriages that take place?
[18:23.600 --> 18:24.020]  Yes, yeah.
[18:24.120 --> 18:28.360]  It's that sort of idiosyncratic, hypocritical organization.
[18:28.360 --> 18:28.840]  Confused.
[18:29.260 --> 18:29.700]  Well, okay.
[18:29.900 --> 18:33.480]  Let's veer back onto a topic here and get people to call in.
[18:33.560 --> 18:37.540]  212-209-2950 to get copies of the media show.
[18:37.700 --> 18:38.740]  Three DVDs full.
[18:39.160 --> 18:46.140]  And also, I should point out, pledges $25 and above get the brand new Off the Hook t-shirt, which we've described before.
[18:46.380 --> 18:47.580]  Newly designed by Rob T.
[18:47.680 --> 18:50.820]  Firefly in the size of your choice, which we've never offered before.
[18:51.020 --> 18:52.700]  So 212-209-2950.
[18:52.700 --> 18:54.220]  We have no calls on the line yet.
[18:54.600 --> 18:58.180]  That's because I know people are waiting to hear the next clip, which we're going to get to in just a moment.
[18:59.860 --> 19:00.840]  But what else?
[19:01.300 --> 19:07.420]  People should also understand that since 75 is above 25, if you get the media show DVDs, you'll also get the t-shirt.
[19:07.520 --> 19:07.880]  That's right.
[19:08.040 --> 19:11.280]  And you can do that by calling 212-209-2950.
[19:11.380 --> 19:13.180]  And honestly... One call on the line, so let's make that five calls.
[19:13.180 --> 19:16.860]  The real reason you're doing this is because you want to see Emanuel interacting with puppets.
[19:17.060 --> 19:17.100]  Okay.
[19:17.100 --> 19:19.300]  Because we actually managed to drag him into the studio.
[19:19.400 --> 19:29.480]  Everybody actually, pretty much, almost everybody in the... Well, not everybody, but some of the people we're missing, but a couple of people in the room now were on the show with us when we pranked an advertiser called houseparty.com.
[19:29.580 --> 19:32.120]  I was tricked into going... No, you were not.
[19:32.120 --> 19:33.220]  I thought there was candy.
[19:33.580 --> 19:33.580]  You had a great time.
[19:33.580 --> 19:37.880]  And I was told to open this door and... And instead there were puppets.
[19:37.960 --> 19:38.940]  Instead there were puppets everywhere.
[19:38.940 --> 19:42.280]  And yes, you can see me awkwardly interacting with puppets.
[19:42.560 --> 19:46.440]  And that particular video is one of our favorites because it also has a lot of drag nuns in it.
[19:46.540 --> 19:49.040]  It has nuns in drag teaching sex ed with hot dogs.
[19:49.460 --> 19:50.800]  200 free hot dogs.
[19:50.980 --> 19:54.740]  If you want to see how this works out, you're going to want to pick up this video in HD.
[19:55.060 --> 19:56.640]  Maybe that's one not to give to the kids.
[19:58.060 --> 20:03.440]  It's all safe for work provided your work is okay with sexual innuendo, drag nuns, and hot dogs.
[20:03.560 --> 20:03.900]  Okay.
[20:04.280 --> 20:04.280]  Yeah.
[20:04.480 --> 20:05.040]  And sex ed.
[20:05.220 --> 20:05.280]  Yeah.
[20:05.280 --> 20:06.860]  212-209-2950.
[20:06.860 --> 20:07.560]  Give us a call.
[20:07.720 --> 20:08.340]  The pledge is $75.
[20:08.340 --> 20:11.700]  You'll get these DVDs and learn something.
[20:11.780 --> 20:15.020]  It's amazing to see the various projects that we're involved in outside of the show.
[20:15.440 --> 20:17.820]  And this is one of the more interesting ones.
[20:17.980 --> 20:19.280]  What kind of feedback have you gotten?
[20:19.900 --> 20:26.980]  Actually, especially from folks who go to the 2600 meetings, the house party episode was really, really popular.
[20:27.140 --> 20:29.940]  Everybody was like, oh, it's so funny to see Emmanuel up there with puppets and stuff like that.
[20:30.060 --> 20:30.560]  They said that, huh?
[20:30.580 --> 20:31.420]  So they... Yeah, they...
[20:31.420 --> 20:32.040]  Can you give me some names?
[20:32.040 --> 20:33.700]  I'd like to follow up on those discussions.
[20:33.700 --> 20:35.700]  Well, it's all up in public, so you can...
[20:35.700 --> 20:35.800]  All right.
[20:35.800 --> 20:36.100]  All right.
[20:36.360 --> 20:38.220]  I won't be accessory to this.
[20:38.220 --> 20:39.900]  212-209-2950.
[20:40.120 --> 20:41.080]  Let's get those phones ringing.
[20:41.240 --> 20:42.020]  $75 pledge.
[20:42.140 --> 20:49.260]  You'll get three DVDs full of the media show produced by Gus and with all kinds of superstars stopping in.
[20:49.280 --> 20:50.400]  And puppets and lessons to be learned.
[20:50.400 --> 20:51.420]  Written to some extent by Rob T.
[20:51.560 --> 20:51.820]  Firefly.
[20:51.920 --> 20:52.140]  Rob T.
[20:52.280 --> 20:57.480]  Firefly turned in a really, really, really funny script the other day about TVTropes.org.
[20:57.480 --> 20:58.160]  And now I'm getting my .com.
[20:58.280 --> 20:58.960]  It's my .org.
[20:59.080 --> 20:59.280]  There we go.
[20:59.340 --> 21:00.140]  That's the one that's .org.
[21:00.260 --> 21:00.940]  Snopes is .com.
[21:01.720 --> 21:03.400]  But it's really hilarious.
[21:03.560 --> 21:13.460]  I mean, it's one of these things where you just get in there and you're just like, Rob is witty and the script is action-packed with references to all kinds of funny things.
[21:13.700 --> 21:14.440]  Okay, here's another clip.
[21:14.780 --> 21:17.880]  This has to do with fair use of songs, of music.
[21:17.880 --> 21:19.700]  You want to tell us something about the setup here?
[21:19.900 --> 21:20.120]  Oh, the songs.
[21:20.500 --> 21:27.740]  We want to do an episode about a song that everybody sort of sings without thinking about it on a relatively regular basis.
[21:27.740 --> 21:31.640]  So this is our song about how Happy Birthday is actually copyrighted.
[21:31.900 --> 21:34.380]  Or sorry, our episode about how Happy Birthday is copyrighted.
[21:34.400 --> 21:39.500]  You know, that's interesting because I saw Yoko Ono a week or so ago at Brooklyn Academy of Music.
[21:39.760 --> 21:43.780]  And great concert, amazing to see her and all the people who played with her.
[21:44.980 --> 21:46.420]  But her birthday is coming up.
[21:46.800 --> 21:47.740]  She's 76.
[21:47.880 --> 21:48.620]  She's going to turn 77.
[21:48.700 --> 21:49.040]  Amazing.
[21:49.200 --> 21:50.860]  She dances like a teenager on stage.
[21:51.100 --> 21:51.840]  It's great to see.
[21:53.060 --> 21:57.040]  But some wise guy in the crowd decided it would be a good idea to sing Happy Birthday to her.
[21:57.080 --> 21:59.520]  And of course, the whole place erupted in a chorus of that.
[21:59.840 --> 22:03.680]  Seems like a nice thing to do, but now she's got to pay licensing rights for that to be included.
[22:03.920 --> 22:05.820]  Well, no, Yoko Ono is exempt for licensing rights everywhere.
[22:05.920 --> 22:06.400]  Is she exempt?
[22:06.560 --> 22:07.500]  Yeah, all of them, yeah.
[22:07.780 --> 22:08.880]  It's the Yoko Ono clause.
[22:08.880 --> 22:09.440]  Oh, okay.
[22:09.700 --> 22:10.180]  All right, good.
[22:10.200 --> 22:10.940]  That's good to know.
[22:11.360 --> 22:12.120]  Yeah, you've got to be careful.
[22:12.380 --> 22:15.660]  They did that at the restaurant the other day that I was at.
[22:15.760 --> 22:21.200]  I wasn't the one who called the cops, but somebody did because they obviously hadn't filled out the appropriate paperwork to sing the song.
[22:21.660 --> 22:22.860]  And we have to look out for these things.
[22:22.940 --> 22:23.980]  You don't sing the song here, do you?
[22:25.160 --> 22:25.680]  Kind of.
[22:25.900 --> 22:26.040]  Uh-oh.
[22:26.080 --> 22:27.580]  Let's go ahead and...
[22:27.580 --> 22:28.940]  All right, we'll start this.
[22:29.120 --> 22:30.360]  Happy Birthday is Interruptus.
[22:30.420 --> 22:33.160]  I'll call the Pacifica attorney and we'll see if we can continue playing it.
[22:33.160 --> 22:34.740]  It would go on time delay beforehand.
[22:35.060 --> 22:35.660]  Yeah, yeah.
[22:35.800 --> 22:37.800]  We're going to go into time delay.
[22:37.800 --> 22:39.760]  Anyway, 212-209-2950.
[22:40.060 --> 22:49.660]  Remember, a pledge of $75 gets you three DVDs filled with episodes of this incredible educational program that would never air on PBS but can air in your home.
[22:49.780 --> 22:52.500]  212-209-2950.
[22:53.500 --> 22:57.460]  And you'll get the Off the Hook t-shirt as well for a pledge of $75.
[22:57.640 --> 22:59.880]  Or if you just want the t-shirt, a pledge of $25.
[23:00.080 --> 23:02.700]  212-209-2950.
[23:03.100 --> 23:05.460]  And now let's listen to an excerpt from the media show.
[23:05.460 --> 23:06.680]  Good evening.
[23:07.100 --> 23:09.820]  Welcome to a very special, the media show.
[23:10.020 --> 23:13.620]  It's the media show with more serious eyebrows.
[23:14.080 --> 23:16.680]  66% more serious eyebrows, to be exact.
[23:16.980 --> 23:21.500]  Today, we are here to inform you of one of life's lethal dangers.
[23:21.900 --> 23:22.960]  Not drunk driving.
[23:23.320 --> 23:24.680]  Not unprotected sex.
[23:24.900 --> 23:27.380]  Not partially hydrogenated soybean oil.
[23:27.540 --> 23:34.020]  Not having unprotected sex while driving drunk and eating partially hydrogenated soybean oil.
[23:34.020 --> 23:37.540]  No, today's lethal danger is singing songs.
[23:37.920 --> 23:41.140]  So innocent, so pure, or so you might think.
[23:41.300 --> 23:47.820]  According to a recent article in the Times, even singing a Christmas carol can get you in ear-deep poop with the music industry.
[23:48.020 --> 24:02.980]  Take the 15-year-old girl who posted a video on YouTube of herself playing and singing Winter Wonderland, thereby revealing to all the world that there is such a song as Winter Wonderland.
[24:04.860 --> 24:10.600]  Thing is, Warner Music owns the rights to the song so they can make YouTube take down the video any old time they want.
[24:10.720 --> 24:14.940]  And they did, preventing someone who wasn't getting paid for it from publicizing their song.
[24:14.940 --> 24:17.040]  You can't take chances like that.
[24:17.240 --> 24:20.400]  She could have brought the Christmas industry to its knees.
[24:21.700 --> 24:22.180]  Knees!
[24:23.060 --> 24:25.360]  You're kind of putting too much emphasis on the knees.
[24:25.680 --> 24:27.120]  I like to say knees.
[24:27.940 --> 24:29.080]  Get it out of your system.
[24:32.320 --> 24:32.960]  I'm done.
[24:33.200 --> 24:38.780]  And how about the teacher whose video got bumped because he was using the song Waiting for a Girl Like You to Teach Sign Language?
[24:38.780 --> 24:46.760]  Thereby running the very real risk that someone, somewhere, or many someones in many places, will learn sign language!
[24:47.080 --> 24:49.280]  Oh, humanity!
[24:53.560 --> 24:57.700]  So, the moral of this story is, don't sing in public.
[24:57.920 --> 25:01.000]  Feel free to sing in the comfort of your own bedroom, bathroom, or car.
[25:01.160 --> 25:06.460]  But the music industry is cracking down on performances of songs where other people can hear you.
[25:06.660 --> 25:07.900]  Be careful out there, everyone.
[25:07.900 --> 25:11.000]  In other news, a couple of our fans had birthdays recently.
[25:11.240 --> 25:11.580]  Yay!
[25:12.000 --> 25:15.180]  Happy Birthday, Anne Stamshkin, and Gavin Stewart!
[25:15.480 --> 25:20.620]  In honor of this special occasion, I will now perform my special belching version of Happy Birthday.
[25:20.840 --> 25:22.200]  No, Weena, don't!
[25:22.340 --> 25:25.240]  I don't care if you think it's gross, it's my special talent.
[25:28.990 --> 25:30.070]  No, Weena, no!
[25:30.310 --> 25:32.730]  Happy Birthday is owned by Time Warner, too!
[25:33.210 --> 25:34.850]  Oh, you've got to be kidding me.
[25:36.110 --> 25:36.510]  Freeze!
[25:36.710 --> 25:38.190]  This belch is protected by ASCAP.
[25:38.310 --> 25:39.150]  But, but, but...
[25:39.150 --> 25:39.810]  Seize her, men!
[25:39.810 --> 25:40.350]  Oh, no!
[25:40.490 --> 25:41.290]  It hurt their birthday!
[25:41.710 --> 25:42.090]  Hmm.
[25:42.430 --> 25:43.750]  And that's what you get.
[25:43.970 --> 25:50.470]  To report someone that you know who has sung Happy Birthday in public, visit unhappybirthday.com.
[25:50.510 --> 25:52.330]  Is this really what we want from copyright law?
[25:56.870 --> 25:57.310]  Okay.
[25:58.570 --> 25:59.010]  Wow.
[25:59.530 --> 26:01.230]  That's, I don't know how to come out of that.
[26:01.310 --> 26:03.150]  That's, uh, that's staggering.
[26:03.370 --> 26:06.070]  I think the only way is to remind people that they can get a copy.
[26:06.270 --> 26:09.230]  Yeah, I mean, this is not something that you see every day, for sure.
[26:09.230 --> 26:14.050]  And certainly, that's something you'd see on your TV set unless you got these DVDs and, and put it on yourself.
[26:14.410 --> 26:15.830]  212-209-2950.
[26:16.070 --> 26:31.850]  Join the caller on the line and, uh, pledge $75 to get all three of these DVDs, uh, with all kinds of, um, of, of, of cool, uh, uh, lessons to be learned about, um, about the internet, about free speech, about fair use, all sorts of, uh, grown-up topics that,
[26:32.130 --> 26:38.470]  um, are, are, are portrayed in a rather, um, humorous and, uh, um...
[26:39.150 --> 26:40.970]  Ageless way, I guess is the best way to say it.
[26:40.990 --> 26:46.210]  In this set, I think we're going to include one disc that is labeled Safe for Aunt Mabel and another disc that is labeled Not Safe for Aunt Mabel.
[26:46.310 --> 26:55.690]  So there will be, there will be at least two discs saying that because there are some episodes that are, they have no cussing, and they are phrased in a way that will be, um, a little bit more, um, you know, they're still funny, but they're, they're, um,
[26:55.930 --> 26:56.870]  a little bit less scandalous.
[26:56.870 --> 27:05.090]  Um, and then the one with the drag nuns and the hackers and the, um, sex education and the cussing will all go on another disc that you can just save for yourself in your own private delectation.
[27:05.310 --> 27:07.250]  Yes, a time of your, of your choice.
[27:07.710 --> 27:10.190]  I mean, it depends what your Aunt Mabel's tastes are.
[27:10.450 --> 27:10.870]  That's true.
[27:11.010 --> 27:14.630]  I, I do have, actually, my Aunt Martha, in fact, would probably find these pretty awesome, so.
[27:14.850 --> 27:21.130]  And, and you're going to need some sort of a dummy, uh, DVD or CD to put there so that they don't ask what happened to it.
[27:21.690 --> 27:24.930]  The other one that's, that's, uh, that's not, that is safe for Aunt Mabel.
[27:24.930 --> 27:25.090]  Mm.
[27:25.230 --> 27:28.390]  We'll conspire with you to, uh, do something that's, that's, that's safe.
[27:28.730 --> 27:28.730]  Right.
[27:28.770 --> 27:30.350]  And, uh, and we'll work out.
[27:30.450 --> 27:31.770]  212-209-2950.
[27:31.950 --> 27:33.330]  Bernie, are you joining us from Philadelphia?
[27:33.810 --> 27:39.630]  I am calling from Philadelphia, uh, receiving a call from Philadelphia after a false attempt to, uh, spread PCS dropping the call.
[27:39.790 --> 27:40.370]  Sorry about that.
[27:40.510 --> 27:40.790]  Okay.
[27:41.030 --> 27:43.090]  Um, but, um, this is really amazing.
[27:43.430 --> 27:46.850]  I've, I've viewed some of, uh, uh, the media show episodes before.
[27:47.130 --> 27:49.490]  And, uh, Gus, I've got to hand it to you and the other people that work on it.
[27:49.550 --> 27:53.830]  This is really very entertaining educational stuff.
[27:53.830 --> 28:11.710]  And perfect for the people that you know in your life, friends or family, who might not really be up on all this stuff with, uh, uh, uh, modern communication systems and, uh, intellectual property laws and, and, and, and safety on, on the internet.
[28:11.710 --> 28:13.830]  I mean, there's, there's, there's numerous topics.
[28:14.090 --> 28:19.550]  I mean, dozens and dozens of topics that would, the really, anybody watching this would get it.
[28:20.050 --> 28:22.630]  That kind of topics that are really hard to explain to people.
[28:22.910 --> 28:30.550]  So, um, I urge your listeners, please, if you support this kind of work and WBAI, um, give us a call at 212-209-2950.
[28:30.550 --> 28:39.350]  Again, for $75, you get three DVDs of the media show and the famous or infamous, uh, brand new off-the-hook t-shirt.
[28:39.890 --> 28:43.830]  And I think, um, one of the things I should probably say is, here, here are some of the topics that we talk about.
[28:43.930 --> 28:45.110]  We do talk about fair use.
[28:45.350 --> 28:47.650]  Um, we talk about copyright law in a way that's accessible.
[28:47.850 --> 28:49.590]  We talk about sending email forwards.
[28:49.710 --> 28:50.430]  We talk about netiquette.
[28:50.650 --> 28:53.570]  We talk about privacy on MySpace and Facebook.
[28:53.790 --> 28:56.610]  Um, that's another thing that, you know, people need a little bit more explanation about.
[28:56.830 --> 28:58.490]  We talk about auto-loading sounds.
[28:58.670 --> 29:00.210]  This is sort of a lesser-known one.
[29:00.310 --> 29:05.530]  We've got an episode where we talk about why it's not a good idea to have a song, uh, uh, auto-load when you start your website.
[29:05.690 --> 29:08.190]  So there's some stuff that's about good web design as well.
[29:08.190 --> 29:15.530]  Um, we do a lot of stuff about advertising, um, and a lot of things that, um, you know, sort of have people think a little bit harder about how they're responding to advertising.
[29:15.670 --> 29:18.770]  We've got, um, Greg Conti, who did a great talk at Hope about evil interfaces.
[29:18.950 --> 29:23.170]  We've got him basically reprising that, um, with a lot of examples of what interfaces are bad.
[29:23.170 --> 29:26.510]  Like the, win a free laptop when you click this flying monkey thing.
[29:26.670 --> 29:37.890]  You know, if you don't want your, you know, whoever in your family to keep doing that, um, or if you want to know more yourself about these things, um, these are all really good entrees to learning about this kind of stuff in a way that is, you know, it's less,
[29:38.110 --> 29:40.270]  you know, less high-tech.
[29:40.270 --> 29:42.070]  You know, it's not as difficult to understand.
[29:42.190 --> 29:43.090]  It's also great for educators.
[29:43.310 --> 29:56.270]  If you've got educators in your family who don't know, um, all that much about copyright law and they're wondering what media they can and can't use in their classroom and how they can and can't have their kids do work with, um, for example, uh, mashups and things like that.
[29:56.270 --> 29:58.030]  Um, this is also pretty good for that.
[29:58.350 --> 30:00.450]  212-209-2950.
[30:00.450 --> 30:02.470]  I'll give a call while this premium is available.
[30:02.630 --> 30:03.450]  It's only available tonight.
[30:03.810 --> 30:04.170]  $75.
[30:04.350 --> 30:09.050]  You'll get three DVDs filled with the media show and, uh, it'll be, uh, extremely entertaining.
[30:09.250 --> 30:12.650]  We're all being very entertained here in the, uh, in, in the studio and we're just listening to it.
[30:12.750 --> 30:13.590]  We're not able to see it.
[30:13.710 --> 30:14.770]  You'll be able to see it.
[30:14.850 --> 30:19.090]  You'll be able to see all the, uh, uh, interesting characters and people, the stars.
[30:19.330 --> 30:21.570]  The visuals really make it come across in a very, very different way.
[30:21.650 --> 30:22.070]  They really do.
[30:22.070 --> 30:23.030]  Yeah, we try really hard with that.
[30:23.170 --> 30:26.230]  Yeah, and it's also inspirational because it shows what you can do.
[30:26.270 --> 30:34.910]  If you just put your mind to it and you can produce a program that, uh, will, will gain quite a following and, uh, bring in all sorts of people and talk about all kinds of issues.
[30:35.030 --> 30:37.550]  I forgot the other thing that we, the other episode that was actually really popular.
[30:37.750 --> 30:50.290]  It got, um, picked up by Boing Boing and by, um, uh, Lenore Skenazy at one point, um, our online predators episode, basically arguing that the online predators issue is, uh, way over hyped and is not something you need to worry about quite as much as you do.
[30:50.370 --> 30:53.430]  We actually break down the statistics on that in a way we hope is entertaining.
[30:53.430 --> 31:01.890]  Some people find it a little bit violent because it involves a chainsaw, but, um, you know, it's, it's, um, I think it's, it's better than dry statistics.
[31:01.890 --> 31:02.590]  I'll tell you that much.
[31:04.230 --> 31:04.630]  So...
[31:04.630 --> 31:06.810]  So I have to commend the, uh, media show.
[31:07.110 --> 31:07.690]  Sorry, go ahead.
[31:07.930 --> 31:17.150]  It does, the media show does a great job at, um, at criticizing advertising without being, without being, like, um, uh, Luddite and, and technophobic.
[31:17.310 --> 31:20.270]  And especially when it comes to MySpace, Facebook issues.
[31:20.470 --> 31:35.890]  And you'll, you'll see the people that are normally, um, trying to, trying to criticize advertising for, for corrupting the minds of children are also, they, I mean, I respect them for that, but then they go around and say, like, oh, well, Facebook, it's also trying to corrupt the minds of children and get them raped by pedophiles.
[31:36.070 --> 31:40.930]  It's like, and, uh, the media show does a good job of, um, mashing up those two beliefs.
[31:41.370 --> 31:47.570]  Yeah, it's, uh, serious, uh, statistics and facts presented in the face of silliness and presented, uh, in the spirit of silliness as well.
[31:48.090 --> 31:50.130]  Uh, so again, 212-209-2950.
[31:50.410 --> 31:57.770]  Join the people on the, on the phone now to, uh, uh, pledge for your copy and, uh, and hopefully, uh, uh, help the station out at the same time.
[31:57.910 --> 32:07.890]  Again, $25 pledge gets you the off the hook t-shirt and $75 pledge gets you the DVD with, uh, all kinds of media show episodes, uh, 212-209-2950.
[32:08.150 --> 32:19.190]  And with that, let's, uh, bring back Jason Scott, uh, who is involved in a, uh, a brand new project, uh, as if you don't have enough to do, uh, now you've gone and you've made a, a, a film, another film?
[32:19.470 --> 32:19.710]  Yes.
[32:19.930 --> 32:23.970]  Although it just occurred to me to mention to you, cause I don't even know if you know about this whole, do you know about archive team?
[32:24.130 --> 32:25.090]  Do you know about this project of mine?
[32:25.190 --> 32:32.970]  Well, last year we got really cranked off because they turned off, I think it was AOL hometown, just turned it off one day like it was nothing.
[32:33.330 --> 32:34.750]  Well, GeoCities, I know they turned off.
[32:34.810 --> 32:35.410]  Well, that was the thing.
[32:35.510 --> 32:40.450]  I started a group called Archive Team and we're rogue archivists and we go in and we back up places before they go down.
[32:40.550 --> 32:40.750]  Wow.
[32:40.950 --> 32:43.870]  And then GeoCities announced they were going down, so we made a backup of it.
[32:44.590 --> 32:45.230]  That's awesome.
[32:45.370 --> 32:48.470]  And so that's been kind of one of my big burning things.
[32:48.630 --> 32:49.850]  So that's ArchiveTeam.org.
[32:49.950 --> 32:53.510]  I just wanted to mention that because it occurred to me that some of your group might want to help me.
[32:54.590 --> 33:10.850]  I'm the mascot, I'm not the leader, and there's probably 30 or 40 other people who come in and we'll find out something is going down and suddenly we just fan out, we get a copy, we'll discuss copyright and everything else later, but we just want to ensure there's a copy.
[33:11.370 --> 33:16.550]  And we've saved a lot of people's sights who didn't know it was going down until it was too late.
[33:16.810 --> 33:17.290]  So anyway.
[33:17.670 --> 33:22.010]  Tell us about your new project, which is a film called Get Lamp, I believe.
[33:22.230 --> 33:22.450]  Yes.
[33:22.710 --> 33:28.230]  So Get Lamp is the second of a documentary, a second documentary I've done now.
[33:28.430 --> 33:30.390]  The first one was about computer bulletin boards.
[33:30.510 --> 33:34.490]  And then after I finished that, I thought, well, what else affected my youth?
[33:34.490 --> 33:35.950]  And the answer was text adventures.
[33:36.410 --> 33:42.450]  Now, text adventures are one of those things that, to a certain age, you have a strong memory of them.
[33:42.550 --> 33:50.430]  And if you are younger than that, then you have kind of a knowledge of some of the, I don't know what the word is, memes, talismans.
[33:50.550 --> 33:56.490]  Like if you hear the phrase, twisty little passages all like, that has meaning to this old kind of game.
[33:56.490 --> 34:07.650]  And certainly everyone who's installed something like Linux might find a game called Adventure on there, where you're suddenly put into a description of a location and then asked, what do you want to do next?
[34:07.970 --> 34:12.730]  Or you might type X, Y, Z, Y somewhere and something will respond and say nothing happens.
[34:12.930 --> 34:13.170]  Yes.
[34:13.370 --> 34:13.970]  What does that mean?
[34:14.050 --> 34:14.670]  What does that mean?
[34:15.010 --> 34:18.410]  And so, or it's pitch dark and you can't see a thing.
[34:18.670 --> 34:28.070]  And there's all this kind of meaning to that because in the beginning of computers, when you wanted to have games, graphics couldn't win out.
[34:28.210 --> 34:30.230]  There wasn't as easy a way to get graphics.
[34:30.510 --> 34:40.950]  So instead, what people would do is create what sounds almost like science fiction, if you describe it that way, that it would tell you a story and then ask you what you want to have happen next in the story.
[34:41.150 --> 34:43.510]  You would say it and then it would describe what happened.
[34:43.710 --> 34:49.430]  And along the way, you would solve puzzles and along the way, you would kind of be like living in a book.
[34:49.770 --> 34:52.910]  And then as graphics took over, we kind of moved away from that.
[34:52.910 --> 34:57.770]  And the story became once upon a time, you were a guy with a gun who kept shooting things until you found a key.
[34:58.010 --> 35:03.450]  You know, I really miss the days of the text adventure because it was such magic.
[35:03.590 --> 35:17.010]  Back then, computers were starting to become popular, but you could get completely lost in this world within the computer where you start off outside a house maybe, and then you type a command, enter house, and you're inside the house.
[35:17.130 --> 35:25.370]  Now you see various things around you and you pick up objects and then you use the objects when you go to other rooms or other directions, you're upstairs, downstairs, things like that.
[35:25.550 --> 35:26.850]  And it's all in your head.
[35:26.950 --> 35:30.690]  It's all something that you're picturing because it's being described to you in front of you.
[35:31.190 --> 35:31.350]  Right.
[35:31.350 --> 35:37.950]  The very first adventure game I played, it was on a printout terminal because that's the only thing we had available at the time.
[35:38.090 --> 35:38.190]  Right.
[35:38.190 --> 35:40.850]  And reams and reams of paper of just wandering around.
[35:41.010 --> 35:42.450]  I never did finish the original adventure.
[35:43.850 --> 35:46.030]  But, okay, so how do you make a film about this?
[35:46.210 --> 35:55.750]  Okay, so, well, first of all, I knew I had to move sooner rather than later on doing it just simply because the first adventure game is worked on in 1976.
[35:56.390 --> 36:02.750]  And so you're talking about people getting older and also evidence of stuff kind of disappearing.
[36:03.010 --> 36:21.890]  So I went and I interviewed creators of various adventure games, people who'd worked in adventure companies, people who played them back then, people who have gotten doctorates in them, people who have written new stuff in the modern era trying to bring back,
[36:21.990 --> 36:24.890]  either bring back that magic or saying, I can do even better now.
[36:24.890 --> 36:26.270]  Yeah, doctorates in adventure games.
[36:26.390 --> 36:26.570]  Mm-hmm.
[36:26.830 --> 36:27.630]  Two or three of those.
[36:28.010 --> 36:28.830]  Wait, more than one.
[36:29.170 --> 36:29.850]  Yeah, more than one.
[36:30.030 --> 36:30.210]  Yeah.
[36:30.450 --> 36:39.470]  Actually, it's kind of an interesting story there because the first person who got a doctorate was in 1984 and her name was Marianne Buckles, Dr. Buckles to you.
[36:39.610 --> 36:50.490]  And she got it, it was German literature, but she had modified it so she could use, basically do text adventures, which you can imagine just delighted her school.
[36:51.090 --> 36:51.970]  She had to fight.
[36:52.070 --> 36:54.850]  She had to fight like crazy to get her committee to pass her, as I recall.
[36:54.890 --> 37:01.370]  Yeah, and so basically she did it and was so burnt out by it, she became a massage therapist.
[37:01.370 --> 37:02.590]  She never used her degree.
[37:02.810 --> 37:06.930]  And I found her because she happened to give an interview 10 years later.
[37:07.250 --> 37:12.910]  And I found her by calling up every spa in her area until I found her.
[37:13.370 --> 37:15.090]  You know, Steve Rambeck would be proud.
[37:15.170 --> 37:17.450]  You're a true detective as far as tracking these people down.
[37:17.450 --> 37:20.850]  And she was very, you know, like, why is this at all interesting?
[37:21.150 --> 37:23.730]  And I told her, people will want to know about you.
[37:23.850 --> 37:29.910]  And now there is no real major academic work in games that doesn't cite her doctorate.
[37:30.750 --> 37:38.650]  I think it's so sad that many text adventures in general have been pretty much supplanted by a lot of visual media.
[37:38.650 --> 37:52.310]  Because it's sort of like the comparison between TV and movies to books, where, you know, like you were saying before, Emmanuel, how, you know, in one case, you get to watch this story being presented to you by somebody else.
[37:52.310 --> 37:53.930]  In the other case, you get to imagine it in your head.
[37:53.990 --> 37:59.890]  And a lot of people say that, you know, books still have a valuable place, even in today's world, because of that.
[38:00.110 --> 38:01.270]  There are some people who say that, yes.
[38:01.270 --> 38:05.630]  And, yeah, you know, sometimes you want to read a book for something, other times a movie might be better.
[38:05.670 --> 38:10.530]  But as far as text adventures go versus graphical video games, you don't see any text adventures anymore.
[38:10.530 --> 38:11.770]  I never really thought about it like that.
[38:11.870 --> 38:14.590]  But, yeah, it's sort of like you're reading a book versus watching TV.
[38:14.810 --> 38:21.230]  And I guess when you just have a text adventure in front of you, it's more like you're reading a book than playing some stupid mindless game where you're shooting things.
[38:21.370 --> 38:21.550]  Right.
[38:21.710 --> 38:29.190]  Brian Moriarty described it as being like the radio drama, that it was a media that's kind of gone.
[38:29.190 --> 38:32.310]  But if you do one for people, they'll be like, wow, this is great.
[38:32.410 --> 38:33.810]  Why isn't this always happening?
[38:34.330 --> 38:40.170]  And it's one of those things where it's like, well, people just got convinced something was better and nobody wanted to fund it.
[38:40.670 --> 38:40.870]  Wow.
[38:41.210 --> 38:45.230]  Okay, well, we have excerpts from your film, too, which is not yet released.
[38:45.370 --> 38:46.110]  It's being released, right?
[38:46.110 --> 38:46.790]  Yeah, it's being released.
[38:46.810 --> 38:47.130]  Next month.
[38:47.290 --> 38:47.910]  Next month.
[38:48.210 --> 38:59.170]  I have a premiere at PAX East, the Penny Arcade Expo East in Boston, where I'm bringing some of the heroes of old who made some of these games up for us.
[38:59.190 --> 39:01.690]  A panel and showing it off.
[39:01.950 --> 39:07.270]  And then right after that, you know, or soon after that, boxes are going out.
[39:07.390 --> 39:11.990]  And you could be among the first to get a copy of this film, which we're about to play an excerpt from.
[39:12.130 --> 39:13.330]  We'll give you the details right afterwards.
[39:13.470 --> 39:15.730]  But the phone number is 212-209-2950.
[39:16.910 --> 39:19.770]  And that's who we're going to hear in this first clip here.
[39:19.930 --> 39:21.630]  Okay, the excerpts were varying length.
[39:21.710 --> 39:24.750]  I didn't want to kill people with a thing that was primarily visual.
[39:24.750 --> 39:30.730]  The first thing you are going to hear is a variety of people describing the first time they stumbled onto the game adventure.
[39:31.170 --> 39:31.910]  Ooh, okay.
[39:32.110 --> 39:33.230]  Sounds fascinating.
[39:33.950 --> 39:39.450]  Excerpt from Jason Scott's Get Limp documentary here on Off the Hook.
[39:41.950 --> 39:43.910]  And I'm sorry, I messed up the machine.
[39:44.010 --> 39:44.750]  Hang on, I have to hit the button.
[39:44.830 --> 39:45.850]  I've never used this machine before.
[39:45.870 --> 39:47.410]  That's why that didn't work.
[39:47.690 --> 39:48.650]  Give me one moment.
[39:48.990 --> 39:50.170]  I'm going to hit that button there.
[39:50.750 --> 39:51.350]  Here we go.
[39:51.350 --> 40:03.450]  I was, it was 1979, and a friend of mine had just come back from Sierra College going nuts, saying, Oh my God, there's games up at the college and they're free.
[40:05.250 --> 40:10.590]  Everybody was talking about it for a period there in 1978.
[40:11.650 --> 40:15.450]  It came out of nowhere and it got copied all over the place.
[40:15.450 --> 40:23.870]  In our dorm, there was a computer room which had two old deck line printer terminals.
[40:24.150 --> 40:26.470]  And they said, there's this game you've got to try out.
[40:26.570 --> 40:27.450]  It's called Adventure.
[40:27.510 --> 40:28.770]  It's really great.
[40:29.030 --> 40:35.630]  They had all these incredibly cool Lisp machines with big gorgeous displays and a bunch of people are huddled around a machine that's got text.
[40:35.630 --> 40:49.990]  Yeah, you'd sit there with a little 300 baud telephone modem and type in a line, you know, get lamp and wait a minute, two minutes, and then shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, you know, they would type the thing out, so...
[40:50.590 --> 40:55.330]  Adventure took us over, took the whole lab over, consumed everyone for a while.
[40:55.330 --> 41:00.830]  The game by Crowther and Woods was a sensation.
[41:01.430 --> 41:04.370]  Literally days went by, and all we did was play the game.
[41:04.790 --> 41:07.350]  And then nobody got any work done for a week.
[41:08.370 --> 41:17.550]  As the legend goes, and it's absolutely true, all productivity ceased for about a week as people attempted to solve it.
[41:17.850 --> 41:25.230]  You know, that's something that in the 70s, to be able to type commands to a computer in something that looked like English.
[41:25.330 --> 41:34.290]  And to have it respond to you with lines of text telling you what happens next, that captivated people.
[41:34.450 --> 41:39.730]  We got down to the point, finally, where Bruce went in with a binary debugger to get the last couple of points.
[41:40.990 --> 41:48.530]  Okay, and that's an excerpt from Get Lamp, the new Jason Scott movie that is being released next month, all about text adventures.
[41:48.830 --> 41:53.830]  And, you know, I want to hear more, because this is intriguing as far as... it brings back memories.
[41:53.830 --> 41:58.910]  It's a fascinating intro to what computers turned into, and it was fun.
[41:59.030 --> 41:59.810]  It was so much fun.
[41:59.990 --> 42:07.270]  It was interesting to make something like this, because on one end, it's talking about history.
[42:07.310 --> 42:12.430]  On another end, it's talking about the nature of writing and creativity, and what does that involve?
[42:12.630 --> 42:13.530]  What are puzzles?
[42:13.770 --> 42:14.790]  What does puzzling mean?
[42:14.790 --> 42:17.750]  Which falls directly into the programmer mentality.
[42:18.430 --> 42:23.710]  And then finally, you know, there's one of those statistics that you hear, and you're like, what?
[42:23.830 --> 42:28.950]  And it's that there's more text adventures being made now than there ever were every year.
[42:29.310 --> 42:32.650]  And many of them are as good or better than the old ones.
[42:32.770 --> 42:34.450]  Yeah, and they're making more text adventures now.
[42:34.630 --> 42:35.250]  Every year.
[42:35.430 --> 42:35.810]  Every year.
[42:35.810 --> 42:36.970]  Who's doing this, and how do I get them?
[42:37.750 --> 42:52.850]  If you look for IF Comp, like Interactive Fiction, IF Comp, every year they have a competition, and you're supposed to be able to solve the games, or be able to theoretically solve the games within two or three hours.
[42:53.030 --> 42:54.690]  So they're generally short stories.
[42:54.910 --> 42:55.430]  Two or three hours?
[42:55.590 --> 42:55.730]  Right.
[42:56.610 --> 42:58.610]  You should be able to theoretically do it.
[42:58.650 --> 43:12.210]  And the idea there is that for a lot of the competitions, it's a way to encourage people to make new ones, and build something up, but not get trapped into designing something for years on end.
[43:12.450 --> 43:17.730]  That said, there are people who then do one, you know, and they do it to stand out.
[43:17.890 --> 43:21.870]  And suddenly you're like, wow, I'm playing a full-length one that's going to take me for months.
[43:22.010 --> 43:22.770]  So, yeah.
[43:22.910 --> 43:25.570]  We have copies, autograph copies.
[43:25.770 --> 43:26.930]  I don't know if you knew about that part of it, Jason.
[43:27.050 --> 43:32.330]  But you're going to sign these DVDs of the movie that is coming out next month, Get Lamp.
[43:32.330 --> 43:35.390]  And, of course, Get Lamp being a command inside an adventure game.
[43:35.390 --> 43:37.990]  If you see a lamp on the floor, that's how you pick it up, Get Lamp.
[43:38.310 --> 43:42.410]  And then I guess you would turn lamp on to actually illuminate the room you're standing in.
[43:43.030 --> 43:47.950]  That's the name of the movie, and it's available for a pledge of $75, 212-209-2950.
[43:49.330 --> 43:58.090]  And we should also point out that if you're torn and you want the media show and the movie for a pledge of $125, you'll get everything.
[43:58.110 --> 44:01.090]  You'll get the Off the Hook t-shirt, the brand new Off the Hook t-shirt.
[44:01.090 --> 44:04.830]  You'll get the media show, a three-DVD set.
[44:05.150 --> 44:09.490]  And you'll also get the brand new movie, Get Lamp, for a pledge of $125.
[44:09.810 --> 44:13.350]  212-209-2950 is our phone number.
[44:13.410 --> 44:13.710]  Voltaire.
[44:13.910 --> 44:19.630]  One of the most interesting parts of this project was the way you funded this project through, I believe it was Kickstarter.
[44:19.990 --> 44:21.010]  Could you tell us about that?
[44:21.250 --> 44:21.870]  There are...
[44:21.870 --> 44:23.790]  Okay, there are multiple ways that it was funded.
[44:24.070 --> 44:34.470]  The first one was something where I had shot the previous documentary in standard definition using a Canon XL1, which is a nice little workhorse, but by 2005 was getting a little long in the tooth.
[44:34.730 --> 44:41.210]  And so I asked, would anybody be interested in funding my movie with, say, $100?
[44:41.990 --> 44:45.510]  And if I get enough of you, I can buy a high-definition camera.
[44:45.690 --> 44:49.030]  And, you know, 2006, this is a pretty costly thing.
[44:49.230 --> 44:50.550]  And 50 people did.
[44:50.970 --> 44:52.510]  And so there was $5,000.
[44:52.510 --> 44:54.150]  I bought a high-definition camera.
[44:54.570 --> 45:04.590]  As I went on, as I got towards the end of this production, I decided to go full-time with being a computer historian.
[45:04.970 --> 45:06.670]  And I did a Kickstarter project.
[45:06.850 --> 45:09.050]  And Kickstarter is basically a fundraising engine.
[45:09.590 --> 45:16.310]  And I put up a list of everything I had done for the last 10 years and said, if you want me to do this all the time, fund me.
[45:19.290 --> 45:20.830]  And 347 people did.
[45:21.730 --> 45:24.890]  And that got me, I think it was $26,000.
[45:25.230 --> 45:28.490]  And that's what I'm living on for this year and doing computer history full-time.
[45:28.750 --> 45:44.130]  And I think that's a nice little parallel to what we're trying to do here tonight, is having people call up so that we can continue to live here at 99.5 FM and support the station so we can talk about things like this and inspire creative people to do all kinds of other projects as well.
[45:44.350 --> 45:44.810]  Yeah, exactly.
[45:45.090 --> 45:45.490]  I mean...
[45:45.490 --> 45:46.530]  209-2950.
[45:46.990 --> 45:54.090]  I mean, it was really nice because it gave people a chance who didn't really, you know...
[45:54.090 --> 45:56.770]  You do something for long enough, you get fans.
[45:56.770 --> 46:07.950]  But even more bewildering, you get fans who are kind of embarrassed or nervous to talk about you or to you because they feel like, I don't have anything to bring to him.
[46:08.010 --> 46:09.110]  I don't want to bother him.
[46:09.250 --> 46:13.870]  And you never find out that somebody cares about what you do because they don't really want to make that step.
[46:13.870 --> 46:16.770]  And this let a lot of people make a step with me.
[46:16.910 --> 46:19.750]  And it was a way of saying, I believe in what you're doing.
[46:19.910 --> 46:20.830]  Here's a little bit of money.
[46:21.090 --> 46:23.110]  That was my excuse for talking to you.
[46:23.150 --> 46:25.230]  But I want you to know I really like what you did.
[46:25.230 --> 46:26.470]  And suddenly they could tell me.
[46:26.670 --> 46:27.710]  So same thing here.
[46:27.830 --> 46:35.970]  I think people, if they give money towards the station, it's a way of, you know, not just passively liking it as you drive around or at home.
[46:35.970 --> 46:39.410]  You can say, oh, I want them to know how much I care.
[46:39.730 --> 46:43.790]  And this is a donation on Jason's part to the radio station.
[46:44.350 --> 46:48.830]  So we're all putting in whatever we can to help keep this place afloat.
[46:48.930 --> 46:56.810]  So what we are asking is for our listeners to also join us in this because in the end, it's not about the things that we give you.
[46:56.910 --> 47:01.550]  It's not about the shirts and the movies and the DVDs and books and things like that.
[47:01.750 --> 47:11.350]  It's about having an outlet for alternative thought and creativity and controversial things to be discussed in a non-commercial environment right here in the middle of New York City.
[47:11.550 --> 47:13.110]  You're the people who make that possible.
[47:13.310 --> 47:21.690]  And by calling 212-209-2950, pledging whatever you can afford, using your credit card if you want, or paying cash or check, you're a part of that.
[47:21.810 --> 47:22.910]  You're adding to it.
[47:22.970 --> 47:23.670]  You're adding to the voice.
[47:23.810 --> 47:24.470]  You're adding to the strength.
[47:24.610 --> 47:25.350]  You're keeping us going.
[47:25.410 --> 47:28.070]  Since 1960, this radio station has been doing this.
[47:28.530 --> 47:34.690]  And it's a real testament to the spirit of New Yorkers and the spirit of people around the world now that this place is vital.
[47:34.770 --> 47:35.530]  This place is needed.
[47:35.630 --> 47:49.730]  And what you're seeing tonight are two examples of how creativity can be used, how people can be educated, how something that isn't being tackled by anybody else can be successfully demonstrated and get out to a whole lot of people.
[47:50.610 --> 47:56.150]  So your call, 212-209-2950, is a voice of support for all that.
[47:56.250 --> 47:56.390]  Mike?
[47:56.830 --> 47:57.350]  I'm sorry.
[47:57.590 --> 47:58.450]  I didn't turn your mic on.
[47:58.530 --> 47:58.930]  Sorry about that.
[47:58.930 --> 47:59.370]  Go ahead, Mike.
[47:59.570 --> 48:02.550]  You pledge $25 to get the T-shirt, the brand new T-shirt.
[48:02.670 --> 48:03.450]  You pledge $75.
[48:03.450 --> 48:08.290]  You have your choice of the media show, which is a three-disc set or Get Lamp.
[48:08.470 --> 48:10.990]  You pledge $125, you get everything.
[48:11.010 --> 48:13.150]  You get the T-shirt, the media show, the Get Lamp.
[48:13.150 --> 48:20.110]  But I wanted to ask, Jason, it would not be a Jason Scott documentary if I did not ask how many DVDs you get with that Get Lamp.
[48:20.350 --> 48:20.690]  Okay.
[48:20.890 --> 48:23.810]  So Get Lamp is two DVDs.
[48:24.410 --> 48:30.430]  So it not just covers text adventures slash interactive fiction, which is how it's also called.
[48:30.530 --> 48:38.330]  It also has a whole section on bed quilt, which is the actual cave that the original adventure was based on.
[48:38.450 --> 48:40.490]  I went down into the cave with the Cave Research Foundation.
[48:40.970 --> 48:45.350]  There's an episode on Infocom, which was the largest company.
[48:45.610 --> 48:45.810]  Oh, I remember them.
[48:45.810 --> 48:46.290]  And I have a lot of that.
[48:46.410 --> 48:47.090]  I remember them.
[48:47.210 --> 48:49.470]  Yeah, I've got an awful lot of footage about them.
[48:49.510 --> 48:51.730]  And I thought, well, I'll just make a little featurette about them.
[48:52.110 --> 48:59.030]  And then there's one on game books, which, okay, I'll call them that, choose your own adventure books.
[48:59.230 --> 49:03.550]  But to call them choose your own adventure books would be like calling all radios Sony.
[49:03.750 --> 49:04.630]  It's not really accurate.
[49:04.730 --> 49:05.730]  There's thousands of them.
[49:05.890 --> 49:06.750]  I got to ask.
[49:06.990 --> 49:08.070]  First of all, we have four calls on the line.
[49:08.070 --> 49:11.330]  Join those people and call in 212-209-2950.
[49:11.330 --> 49:12.050]  Show your support.
[49:12.110 --> 49:13.830]  It means a great deal to us to know you're out there.
[49:14.690 --> 49:16.610]  But, you know, I played adventure a lot.
[49:16.730 --> 49:19.150]  My first computer experience was in high school.
[49:19.330 --> 49:25.730]  And, of course, I wound up using the computer for purposes that it wasn't supposed to be used for, including playing games.
[49:26.510 --> 49:30.890]  And adventure was one of those things that I got into that was really a lot of fun and very interesting.
[49:31.090 --> 49:34.530]  But I never was able to actually finish the game.
[49:34.670 --> 49:36.190]  I never got to the end of it.
[49:36.190 --> 49:39.150]  And I'm just curious, what happens at the very end of the original adventure?
[49:39.430 --> 49:40.530]  Are you able to tell us that?
[49:40.670 --> 49:43.370]  You want me to ruin it for unknown hundreds of people?
[49:43.390 --> 49:45.270]  It's been over 30 years.
[49:45.430 --> 49:46.170]  You know what?
[49:46.230 --> 49:46.630]  Ruin it.
[49:46.690 --> 49:48.710]  Because otherwise, it's never going to get ruined for me.
[49:49.770 --> 49:50.410]  I don't know.
[49:50.630 --> 49:52.510]  At least give me a hint as to what happens.
[49:52.510 --> 49:53.550]  There's something...
[49:53.550 --> 49:53.830]  I'll give you a hint.
[49:54.010 --> 50:02.030]  Upon the acquisition of all the treasures that you are trying to acquire, you find that the cave is shutting down.
[50:02.190 --> 50:02.730]  Oh, no.
[50:02.910 --> 50:12.090]  And you end up being shuffled out of the cave into a storage area where you must solve the final puzzle to finally escape.
[50:12.550 --> 50:15.250]  So that's the environment.
[50:15.410 --> 50:24.250]  Now, one of the things that isn't known is the original adventure was for mainframes and had a mode where it could be shut down for the day.
[50:24.450 --> 50:31.690]  In other words, because computer time was so expensive, you could actually log into adventure and it would say, sorry, the cave's closed.
[50:31.850 --> 50:34.210]  I think we did that at our high school during school hours.
[50:34.310 --> 50:40.010]  And you could actually execute a command to tell everyone in the cave, it's time to get out of the cave.
[50:40.270 --> 50:45.950]  You know, as if it was a swimming pool or some sort of park, you could tell people, oh, no, no, get out of the game.
[50:45.950 --> 50:48.110]  We need the machine back to do other work.
[50:48.110 --> 50:51.270]  And that has been really lost.
[50:51.270 --> 50:58.330]  I found the man who ported it from basically mainframes to minicomputers, which is the version that we all play.
[50:58.510 --> 51:02.190]  I mean, pretty much every person who thinks they've played it has played his port.
[51:02.330 --> 51:03.970]  So he was able to get it down there.
[51:03.990 --> 51:07.770]  But he told me about these original versions that are long since gone.
[51:07.910 --> 51:10.110]  All right, we've had a flurry of calls and we want to keep that coming in.
[51:10.190 --> 51:11.930]  212-209-2950.
[51:12.230 --> 51:12.850]  Pledge at $75.
[51:13.170 --> 51:17.090]  Get your autographed copy of the DVD set that Jason has produced.
[51:17.090 --> 51:22.090]  I really should mention one feature of it, which, again, you said Jason Scott production.
[51:23.790 --> 51:30.450]  One of the things that was really big with adventure games, especially commercial games, was what were called feelies or wrap-ins.
[51:30.470 --> 51:33.650]  You would end up with an item in the box, the adventure game.
[51:33.770 --> 51:35.870]  So you get an adventure game and, oh, you get a map.
[51:35.910 --> 51:38.950]  Or maybe you would get a glow-in-the-dark stone, which was in Wishbringer.
[51:39.010 --> 51:40.670]  Or you would get some postcards.
[51:40.830 --> 51:42.230]  And it was all meant to bring you out there.
[51:42.230 --> 51:44.930]  So I decided to do that with GitLamp.
[51:45.070 --> 51:51.990]  So GitLamp comes with a minted serial-numbered coin that is...
[51:52.830 --> 51:54.490]  I'm having a mint make one.
[51:54.650 --> 51:59.370]  And they will be, like I said, individually numbered, two-tone and two-tone different kinds of metals.
[51:59.550 --> 52:01.570]  And that's included in every package.
[52:02.050 --> 52:02.230]  Okay.
[52:02.650 --> 52:05.490]  212-209-2950 is the phone number to call.
[52:05.490 --> 52:07.510]  Please keep those pledges coming in.
[52:07.590 --> 52:11.090]  $75, you'll get the GitLamp documentary.
[52:11.390 --> 52:14.010]  Just going to be released next month, in fact.
[52:14.150 --> 52:14.810]  Autographed copy.
[52:15.090 --> 52:17.130]  $75, you have your choice.
[52:17.210 --> 52:17.590]  You can get that.
[52:17.710 --> 52:21.390]  Or you can get the three-DVD set of the media show, which we excerpted earlier tonight.
[52:21.590 --> 52:28.630]  For $125, you can get all of them, including the Off the Hook t-shirt, which you'll get for any pledge, $25 and above.
[52:28.810 --> 52:33.670]  212-209-2950, I should point out, this is all only going to be available for the next nine minutes.
[52:33.670 --> 52:34.570]  Then we're out of here.
[52:34.570 --> 52:35.810]  Then this is no longer available.
[52:36.050 --> 52:41.670]  So if you know anybody that would like this, and if for some reason you wouldn't yourself, give a call.
[52:41.950 --> 52:44.530]  212-209-2950 and pledge your support.
[52:44.990 --> 52:48.710]  And if you just want to keep us going, give a call and pledge your support.
[52:48.810 --> 52:50.070]  212-209-2950.
[52:50.170 --> 52:51.610]  I'm going to play a second excerpt from this.
[52:51.790 --> 52:52.670]  Why don't you play...
[52:52.670 --> 52:55.090]  Well, if we're going to play one, I think we should go for track three.
[52:55.250 --> 52:56.170]  Track three, okay.
[52:56.170 --> 52:57.750]  Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is the right one.
[52:57.770 --> 52:58.510]  I really hope so.
[52:58.690 --> 52:59.910]  This is the one about mazes.
[53:01.090 --> 53:02.630]  I know how to move ahead on this.
[53:02.750 --> 53:03.590]  Where's the...
[53:03.590 --> 53:04.270]  Hang on.
[53:04.270 --> 53:05.290]  I've got to figure out how to...
[53:05.290 --> 53:06.270]  I've never used this machine before.
[53:06.410 --> 53:07.150]  It doesn't have an advance.
[53:07.930 --> 53:08.290]  Is that it?
[53:08.350 --> 53:08.630]  There it is.
[53:08.690 --> 53:08.970]  I got it.
[53:09.050 --> 53:09.430]  I got it.
[53:09.650 --> 53:10.230]  No need to come over.
[53:10.870 --> 53:11.250]  All right.
[53:11.390 --> 53:11.950]  Call the dogs.
[53:12.290 --> 53:13.210]  Track three, what is this again?
[53:13.230 --> 53:15.390]  I'm very sure this is the one about mazes.
[53:15.850 --> 53:16.030]  All right.
[53:16.050 --> 53:17.190]  It's one minute and one second long.
[53:17.310 --> 53:17.690]  Does that sound...
[53:17.690 --> 53:18.470]  That sounds about right.
[53:18.570 --> 53:19.150]  About mazes.
[53:19.270 --> 53:19.390]  All right.
[53:19.390 --> 53:21.430]  If not, it'll be about something else equally interesting.
[53:21.570 --> 53:21.890]  That's right.
[53:21.990 --> 53:24.030]  You can just listen randomly and it'll be interesting.
[53:24.150 --> 53:25.450]  212-209-2950.
[53:25.770 --> 53:27.290]  Let's listen to an excerpt from Get Lamp.
[53:29.610 --> 53:31.850]  I mean, mazes are sort of a special case in IF.
[53:31.850 --> 53:36.570]  Like, people have a pathological aversion to mazes, which is, you know, like you...
[53:37.970 --> 53:38.530]  I don't know.
[53:38.630 --> 53:43.630]  You, like, ring a bell and then, like, you kick a dog a bunch of times and, like, it starts, like, crying after you ring the bell a couple times.
[53:43.730 --> 53:45.850]  So that's how people in the IF community feel about mazes.
[53:46.530 --> 53:47.250]  Oh, my God.
[53:47.350 --> 53:47.750]  A maze.
[53:47.890 --> 53:48.490]  Kill me now.
[53:49.570 --> 53:54.550]  And there's nothing intrinsically wrong about mazes, but people have, like, a built-in aversion to them by now.
[53:54.630 --> 53:56.170]  So that's kind of a special case.
[53:56.310 --> 53:59.730]  I thought mazes were old school from the beginning myself.
[54:00.310 --> 54:04.410]  Mazes were a staple of early interactive fiction.
[54:04.610 --> 54:13.790]  It seemed as though virtually every story had at least one or two mazes that you had to somehow map your way around in and figure your way out of.
[54:14.090 --> 54:17.510]  When you're encountering something for the first time, it seems really cool.
[54:18.610 --> 54:23.250]  When I played Zork, I was like, oh, this maze, what a brilliant idea.
[54:24.690 --> 54:29.070]  And then 50,000 iterations later, it just does not seem so brilliant.
[54:29.710 --> 54:30.410]  I don't know.
[54:30.590 --> 54:31.250]  I think it does.
[54:31.410 --> 54:32.950]  I think it's pretty brilliant.
[54:33.070 --> 54:35.150]  And Zork, that's the name of the Infocom thing I was trying to remember.
[54:35.290 --> 54:35.650]  Yes, Zork.
[54:35.830 --> 54:36.010]  Yeah.
[54:36.150 --> 54:38.450]  I have the creator of Zork, or one of the co-creators.
[54:38.510 --> 54:44.250]  There are three guys who created Zork, essentially, and I got two of them, including the creator of what we think of as The Gru.
[54:46.130 --> 54:56.010]  And the guy who created Zork, interesting guy, Mark Blank, he went to MIT, and then he went to medical school because he thought he had to, but he didn't want to.
[54:56.310 --> 55:06.910]  And he would basically get all of his classes to be on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, so he could leave Thursday night, go back up to Boston and work on Zork, and then come back late.
[55:07.070 --> 55:14.130]  And every time he found out there was going to be snow, he would drive down to Boston as fast as he could so he would get snowed in.
[55:14.250 --> 55:19.670]  And he graduated, which means, what do you call the guy who graduated from medical school who didn't want to go there?
[55:19.770 --> 55:20.870]  You call him doctor.
[55:21.730 --> 55:22.210]  Wow.
[55:22.470 --> 55:22.650]  Yeah.
[55:22.870 --> 55:27.550]  But yeah, so he went off into games and then actually works for Google now.
[55:28.010 --> 55:28.490]  Incredible.
[55:28.750 --> 55:34.390]  Just the history here, and you really should be commended on what you've done to preserve that history.
[55:34.490 --> 55:47.230]  And this movie alone is an epic achievement in doing that, but all the work you do with text files and just getting us to appreciate our culture because it really is a fascinating culture that has developed over the decades.
[55:47.510 --> 55:52.110]  And we don't know where it's going to go from here, but those early days really were pretty fascinating.
[55:52.270 --> 55:55.890]  I think there's a lot to be said for getting the human side as well as the artifacts.
[55:56.130 --> 55:57.930]  And so it's one of those things.
[55:58.690 --> 56:00.650]  People have said, what are you going to look into next?
[56:00.830 --> 56:06.470]  And I tell them, like, I really want to kind of collect the history of IRC and of FTP sites.
[56:06.610 --> 56:07.390]  And they're like, what do you mean?
[56:07.490 --> 56:08.690]  That's brand new.
[56:08.690 --> 56:09.410]  There's nothing wrong.
[56:09.550 --> 56:12.850]  And I'm like, try finding any place that distributes anything on FTP now.
[56:13.590 --> 56:14.470]  Actually, we do.
[56:14.670 --> 56:17.350]  You can get our shows on FTP, but most people don't.
[56:17.590 --> 56:17.850]  Yes.
[56:18.790 --> 56:19.670]  That's the thing.
[56:19.790 --> 56:25.790]  I mean, you are a paragon of, you know, uniqueness as time has gone on, you know?
[56:25.910 --> 56:33.650]  The thing that's amazing, and this is something that we've had many people from Hollywood come and ask us, how do we make this movie about hacking and make it interesting?
[56:34.270 --> 56:41.830]  And I think you saw this manifest itself in the movie Hackers, where they had to have all these flashing gizmos and graphical interfaces and things like that.
[56:42.010 --> 56:47.670]  I think if you do it well, if you do it right, the simple text itself is fascinating enough.
[56:47.670 --> 57:04.390]  If the story behind it is interesting, because I know when I was involved in playing around with computer systems of various sorts, something that appeared on the screen in just pure ASCII text would be enough to make me jump up to the ceiling in excitement because of what it represents.
[57:04.590 --> 57:11.930]  And I think that's what you've succeeded in doing in making a film where I don't think people would have realized, yeah, I can make a film about text adventure games.
[57:12.190 --> 57:14.530]  When you say that, people sort of give a double take.
[57:14.670 --> 57:15.590]  Is that really interesting?
[57:15.670 --> 57:16.570]  And yeah, it is.
[57:16.670 --> 57:17.350]  It really is.
[57:17.450 --> 57:18.930]  And it works for me in a double-edged way.
[57:19.050 --> 57:22.650]  Number one, I never had to look over my shoulder at the other production company doing it.
[57:23.770 --> 57:33.790]  And number two, it meant that it was a challenge and I knew that if I finished it, it was going to be the movie, which was, you know, there were several people who people told me, oh no, he'll never sit down for an interview with you.
[57:33.850 --> 57:35.290]  He doesn't like to talk about those periods.
[57:35.530 --> 57:37.810]  And a couple times they would go, of course I'll talk to you.
[57:37.850 --> 57:38.490]  And I'd say, why?
[57:38.590 --> 57:40.670]  And they're like, oh, because you're obviously going to be it.
[57:41.570 --> 57:43.070]  And I might as well talk to you.
[57:43.530 --> 57:43.770]  Wow.
[57:44.190 --> 57:48.070]  Well, okay, again, we're getting a flurry of calls and let's keep those calls coming in.
[57:48.150 --> 57:53.690]  If you don't get an answer for whatever reason, it might be that we're overloaded in the tally room.
[57:53.850 --> 57:55.630]  So let the phone ring or call right back.
[57:55.890 --> 57:57.430]  212-209-2950.
[57:57.670 --> 58:00.790]  Once again, wrapping it all up for a pledge of $75.
[58:00.790 --> 58:13.230]  Your Choice of Gus's Media Show, which focuses on all kinds of fascinating items from our current internet culture and freedom of speech and all kinds of other relevant things.
[58:13.790 --> 58:14.490]  Pledge of $75.
[58:14.490 --> 58:15.830]  You get the three DVD set of that.
[58:15.970 --> 58:23.830]  For a pledge of $75, you may choose to get Jason Scott's brand new documentary, Get Lamp, available or coming out officially next month.
[58:24.110 --> 58:30.450]  For a pledge of $125, you'll get both of those items and the Off the Hook t-shirt.
[58:30.450 --> 58:35.150]  In fact, you'll get the Off the Hook t-shirt for any pledge $25 and above in the size of your choice.
[58:35.230 --> 58:38.210]  But you have to call in the next five minutes or it's not going to be available anymore.
[58:38.390 --> 58:40.810]  212-209-2950.
[58:41.430 --> 58:46.890]  I want to thank the both of you, Gus and Jason, for your work and for doing something that I think will inspire a lot of people.
[58:47.070 --> 58:49.150]  I always say thank you for what you do.
[58:49.430 --> 58:49.950]  Well, thanks.
[58:50.530 --> 58:51.110]  Maybe I'll do it again.
[58:51.150 --> 58:52.070]  Do you guys have websites?
[58:52.350 --> 58:52.890]  People can go.
[59:00.550 --> 59:01.170]  Okay.
[59:01.650 --> 59:03.290]  212-209-2950.
[59:03.330 --> 59:04.870]  We'll see you next week.
[59:05.010 --> 59:05.210]  Good night.
[59:05.210 --> 59:05.950]  212-209-2950.
[59:14.530 --> 59:36.150]  We'll never ruin each other's day Cause when I'm through I just click And you just go away You just go away The world's not so big But I'm safe in my domain Cause you are just a numbery
[01:00:00.790 --> 01:00:40.830]  And no one's ever gonna take my love from me Cause I got security Her password and the key Go away Go away Go away Go away Go away Go away Go away Go away.
[01:00:43.590 --> 01:00:44.750]  Go away.
[01:00:44.970 --> 01:00:46.070]  All right.
[01:00:46.390 --> 01:00:49.770]  Oh boy, they went away in a very good way, they did.
[01:00:50.190 --> 01:00:52.510]  Wow, I really enjoyed myself here.
[01:00:52.650 --> 01:00:53.630]  Let me calm down.