[00:12.360 --> 00:16.840]  And you're listening to 99.5 FM WBAI New York.
[00:17.080 --> 00:20.040]  It's 7 p.m., time for Off the Hook.
[00:27.140 --> 00:28.960]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:29.400 --> 00:31.480]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:32.580 --> 00:34.460]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:35.080 --> 00:37.000]  Now I can't make a call.
[00:37.740 --> 00:39.840]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:42.560 --> 00:45.280]  Bum, diddly-bump, but the best is paid for worst.
[00:45.980 --> 00:47.760]  I hope that's understood.
[00:48.000 --> 00:48.840]  Bum, diddly-bump!
[01:33.250 --> 01:34.150]  And good evening.
[01:34.210 --> 01:35.210]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:35.430 --> 01:36.570]  This is Red Act here.
[01:36.770 --> 01:38.750]  I'm joined tonight in the studio by Mike.
[01:38.930 --> 01:39.330]  Hi there.
[01:39.330 --> 01:39.810]  Jim.
[01:40.070 --> 01:40.310]  Hello.
[01:40.990 --> 01:41.650]  Dot Rhett.
[01:41.850 --> 01:42.170]  Hello.
[01:42.650 --> 01:44.570]  And not Kevin.
[01:44.950 --> 01:45.210]  Hello.
[01:45.450 --> 01:46.070]  I had to think about that for a second.
[01:46.150 --> 01:46.510]  It's been a while.
[01:47.530 --> 01:49.970]  And on the phone, we have Bernie S.
[01:50.090 --> 01:50.630]  down in Philadelphia.
[01:51.150 --> 01:52.330]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[01:52.670 --> 01:55.270]  And Emanuel somewhere, as usual.
[01:56.070 --> 01:56.910]  Yes, hello.
[01:57.050 --> 01:57.630]  This is Emanuel.
[01:57.870 --> 02:02.970]  I am joining you tonight from the city of Skopje in Fyram.
[02:04.070 --> 02:06.110]  Do you have to call it Fyram at all times?
[02:06.150 --> 02:06.390]  Yes.
[02:06.390 --> 02:11.530]  I'm calling it Fyram only to be nice to the U.N.
[02:11.530 --> 02:12.110]  and the Greeks.
[02:12.250 --> 02:17.270]  But actually, everybody here calls the country Macedonia.
[02:17.570 --> 02:26.070]  And I know some people might object to that, but the official name, yes, Fyram, former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
[02:26.350 --> 02:31.010]  You know, I've talked about this for a few people here, and everybody says, you know, this is all very silly.
[02:31.010 --> 02:33.950]  And we really should move on and talk about more important things.
[02:34.370 --> 02:41.210]  But, yes, we are in the... Kyle and I are in the country of Macedonia.
[02:41.310 --> 02:48.910]  And this, by the way, is the last country that we have entered of... I think we've gone to eight countries now.
[02:48.910 --> 03:13.070]  We started in Croatia, went to Slovenia, then went back to Croatia, and then into Bosnia, from Bosnia into Serbia just for one day, then out to Montenegro, then into Albania, from Albania into Kosovo, now into Macedonia, and then back to Serbia in a couple of days.
[03:13.070 --> 03:19.570]  It's been an incredible voyage in so many different ways, all sorts of adventures.
[03:19.870 --> 03:34.250]  The trip from Sarajevo, where we were last week at this time, into Belgrad in Serbia, was a very symbolic type of journey, because there was a rail line between those two cities that had been destroyed by war, and only last December had been reopened.
[03:34.250 --> 03:41.890]  And what we did was we took the train from Sarajevo, and it took about... I think about eight hours or so.
[03:42.030 --> 03:43.470]  It was a very long ride.
[03:44.170 --> 03:47.930]  Four different engine changes, because we were going through different territories.
[03:48.150 --> 03:54.610]  We were going through the Srpska, we were going through Croatia, we were going into the Serbian country.
[03:55.610 --> 04:00.510]  And, of course, customs, we had to show our passport two different times on the train.
[04:01.690 --> 04:05.610]  And then, of course, currency changes every time you go into a new country.
[04:06.350 --> 04:07.690]  And then we...
[04:08.930 --> 04:15.030]  This is the really interesting part, because I've been fascinated with the country of Albania ever since I was a kid.
[04:15.030 --> 04:28.590]  Reason being that Albania was one of the most repressive regimes ever created, where everybody was pretty much walled in, and nobody knew anything about what was going on inside the country.
[04:28.590 --> 04:30.130]  So, of course, that fascinated me.
[04:30.770 --> 04:37.630]  And having been to North Korea, having been to Cuba, Albania was always the final piece of that puzzle.
[04:37.630 --> 04:44.830]  It's changed so much, though, since communism fell over there, so it's not at all like it was.
[04:45.070 --> 04:47.690]  But getting there, getting there is a real adventure.
[04:48.230 --> 04:54.210]  We were in Montenegro at the time, and we knew that we could get into Albania, but we didn't know how.
[04:54.210 --> 04:56.110]  There was no bus there, there was no train there.
[04:56.710 --> 05:06.130]  And, if you recall, last week we left it with an appeal to anybody who might know the best way to get into Albania, if they could tell us how to go or how not to go.
[05:06.610 --> 05:07.550]  Well, nobody replied.
[05:07.650 --> 05:09.970]  Apparently we have no listeners in Albania or Montenegro.
[05:10.730 --> 05:15.470]  So we had to sort of use our instincts and do the best we could.
[05:15.630 --> 05:26.570]  We hired a cab that literally took us to the border, and we were going to walk across the border into Albania and figure out from there a way to get into Tirana, the capital.
[05:27.310 --> 05:31.110]  And what would happen was we took the cab, got to the border.
[05:31.110 --> 05:35.530]  He made this big U-turn right before the border, and we got out of the cab.
[05:35.790 --> 05:42.950]  And once I gave him a tip of a few euro, he started to explain more about what we could do when we got over the border.
[05:43.430 --> 05:46.630]  And he knew no English, so it was an interesting discussion.
[05:46.870 --> 05:56.370]  Then this other cab driver came out of nowhere, who was Albanian, and said that he would be able to take us to a city where we could catch a small bus into Tirana.
[05:57.010 --> 05:58.490]  And that's pretty much what we did.
[05:58.610 --> 06:02.810]  We got into this taxi with a bunch of strangers, which is kind of scary, actually.
[06:03.530 --> 06:07.070]  And I'm going to put Kyle on to describe that a little bit.
[06:07.810 --> 06:12.870]  But do you guys have any questions on this crazy adventure we've had so far?
[06:14.670 --> 06:15.410]  I guess not.
[06:15.490 --> 06:17.070]  Why don't we hear the rest of the story?
[06:17.210 --> 06:18.670]  We're sitting on the edges of our seats.
[06:18.850 --> 06:18.970]  This is fascinating.
[06:19.210 --> 06:19.270]  Okay, okay.
[06:20.230 --> 06:30.210]  Kyle's going to explain the fear that went through our heads as we were getting into this taxi in Albania, and how our attitude sort of changed in a matter of moments.
[06:31.150 --> 06:31.790]  Hi.
[06:32.330 --> 06:43.290]  So we got into a taxi with two other individuals, who I believe are Albanian citizens, and crossed the border with them.
[06:45.110 --> 06:52.750]  And it was actually quite comforting, because we had thought we were going to be able to, or have to walk.
[06:52.750 --> 06:57.510]  But in this case, we had some people, you know, to take us.
[06:57.670 --> 07:07.610]  And the first thing we noticed when we got across was the roads are in terrible shape, and we're in this very old car.
[07:08.170 --> 07:12.770]  And the luggage and other people obviously weighed it down.
[07:12.930 --> 07:19.130]  So the driver was, you know, sort of weaving and navigating the road as best he could.
[07:20.110 --> 07:25.530]  And he had actually taken out the spare tire because he didn't have enough room for all the bags.
[07:25.570 --> 07:28.930]  So he really was trying to avoid getting a flat out there.
[07:29.190 --> 07:33.830]  Because a lot of it is very, very rural right across the border.
[07:35.490 --> 07:39.630]  There's no main, like, water supply.
[07:39.630 --> 07:44.090]  Everybody has cisterns on their houses.
[07:44.890 --> 07:53.510]  It's just, you see some of the electrical stuff just sort of, kind of in bad shape.
[07:53.710 --> 07:56.650]  And it was sort of a tenuous drive.
[07:56.650 --> 08:02.410]  And I was really concerned because, you know, there would be small towns.
[08:02.410 --> 08:09.330]  And you kind of felt like, gee, maybe, you know, they'd want to slow us down or, you know, stop us for some reason.
[08:09.330 --> 08:16.050]  There was a lot of trust that you had to place in perfect strangers' hands.
[08:17.470 --> 08:36.030]  But on the flip side, you look at it in another way and you realize these people are probably the safest way to enter this area because they're local, because their car is not, you know, some flashy tourist thing, you know, that somebody's rented.
[08:37.150 --> 08:52.430]  It's very, very, you know, colloquial, kind of the way the native, I don't know, that's a horrible word to use, but it's the way your average everyday person would, you know, maybe go back and visit a relative and then come back.
[08:52.430 --> 09:02.610]  And the same thing with a lot of the minibuses, because basically that taxi took us into the closest city.
[09:03.330 --> 09:06.770]  And from there, you know, he would kind of say, here you go.
[09:06.850 --> 09:15.590]  And, you know, maybe a guy sitting on a bench next to him and he'd, you know, ask where the bus was to get us to the next town, say, hey, they're going to Toronto.
[09:15.590 --> 09:23.270]  And that guy talked to two other people, you basically have the whole corner know where you're going.
[09:23.590 --> 09:31.630]  And that, that kind of stuff is just, you kind of want to be quiet and, and not let people know everything about you.
[09:31.810 --> 09:34.870]  But you really had to just place that trust in other people's hands.
[09:35.050 --> 09:39.670]  And we, we were able to put those things aside and, and get through it.
[09:39.770 --> 09:40.490]  It was really interesting.
[09:42.210 --> 09:43.410]  So you made it.
[09:43.990 --> 09:44.690]  Yeah.
[09:45.550 --> 09:47.450]  Uh, what was it like once you got there?
[09:48.730 --> 09:59.990]  Um, well, the, the city itself is, is really much different than anything I'd ever heard of or imagined.
[10:00.370 --> 10:10.390]  I, I, once we spent some time in Toronto, um, I realized I had no idea, like nothing, no good information.
[10:10.390 --> 10:13.310]  About, you know, the reality on the street.
[10:13.590 --> 10:14.830]  It's a big town.
[10:15.050 --> 10:15.590]  It's modern.
[10:15.890 --> 10:22.710]  It's, um, it's, it's, it's sort of, um, built up by the surrounding areas.
[10:22.710 --> 10:26.450]  Because as I said, coming in, it's, it's really, really, really rural.
[10:26.810 --> 10:29.030]  Um, people are selling things in bulk.
[10:29.430 --> 10:34.610]  Um, but once you get into the town, you just, it slowly starts becoming this huge, massive town.
[10:34.610 --> 10:40.330]  Um, so you, you, you really get the sense that Toronto is the hub.
[10:40.810 --> 10:48.750]  Um, but there's also this lack of technology, like, uh, buses, and, and there's no bus station officially in Toronto.
[10:48.750 --> 10:50.490]  So that's a stark contrast.
[10:50.670 --> 10:59.350]  You have financial districts and all that, but, you know, uh, a train station with, you know, one train and two cars on it.
[10:59.610 --> 11:08.730]  Uh, there's a lot of things about it that are still run the way that, that the locals, you know, know is the best way.
[11:08.730 --> 11:09.830]  That, that kind of thing.
[11:10.610 --> 11:16.230]  So, um, yeah, I, I really, really enjoyed, uh, enjoyed Toronto once I got in there.
[11:16.470 --> 11:26.110]  And, uh, yeah, it had to really, uh, relax and, and shed my, my, uh, notions, my American sensibilities.
[11:27.350 --> 11:31.390]  I was, I was very amazed by how, uh, lively Toronto was.
[11:31.530 --> 11:36.950]  I expected something to be sort of, uh, grim and gray like, uh, it was back in the Stalinist days.
[11:37.430 --> 11:39.290]  And they really were a Stalinist regime.
[11:39.290 --> 11:43.470]  They, they, uh, they didn't like the Soviet Union or China because they didn't go far enough.
[11:43.930 --> 11:46.710]  Uh, and that, of course, all changed in the 1990s.
[11:46.790 --> 11:50.370]  But when we got there, uh, we, we actually arrived on May Day.
[11:50.830 --> 11:53.710]  And that was, uh, always a big day in, in, in Albania.
[11:54.050 --> 11:58.470]  Uh, we got there at the tail end of a demonstration that was taking place right in the main square.
[11:59.090 --> 12:09.730]  And apparently what was happening, we really didn't get the full story on this, but what was happening was there was a hunger strike going on amongst people who were objecting to, uh, the election results of last June.
[12:10.310 --> 12:18.850]  Uh, apparently, I don't know why it took a full year to get to this stage, but, uh, May Day was the day they chose to, to have a big rally against the, um, uh, the election results.
[12:19.430 --> 12:22.770]  Uh, and, uh, the people having this rally, I believe were socialists.
[12:23.470 --> 12:27.350]  Uh, and, and they were, uh, demonstrating against the, the existing government.
[12:27.510 --> 12:29.450]  There was another demonstration in support of the government.
[12:29.450 --> 12:32.470]  Uh, so there was all this, uh, this back and forth.
[12:32.610 --> 12:35.230]  But what I found amazing was the media coverage.
[12:35.850 --> 12:43.010]  Uh, Albania is, has become a country of, of all sorts of, uh, of, of video, uh, uh, journalism.
[12:43.330 --> 12:47.430]  Uh, all kinds of news channels are everywhere in the street, filming everything.
[12:48.010 --> 12:51.390]  And this, uh, this demonstration, we, we basically hung out in the square.
[12:51.530 --> 12:53.010]  The story just sort of fell into our laps.
[12:53.210 --> 12:57.290]  Uh, we hung out in the square and just watched everybody, uh, milling about.
[12:57.290 --> 13:00.590]  A lot of, a lot of old guys with really kind of cool looking hats.
[13:00.730 --> 13:03.890]  And I imagine they were the guys that were around back in the old days.
[13:03.950 --> 13:05.730]  And it's maybe one of those old days to come back.
[13:05.730 --> 13:06.370]  I don't know.
[13:06.750 --> 13:11.970]  Uh, but, uh, we were watching, uh, one of the people giving a talk or a, a speech.
[13:12.270 --> 13:14.490]  Uh, and we were watching this from upstairs in the mall.
[13:14.710 --> 13:17.830]  And there were only about maybe two, three hundred people in the crowd.
[13:17.830 --> 13:19.230]  But they were very loud and vocal.
[13:19.470 --> 13:23.150]  And then we turned to a television set that was on next to us.
[13:23.310 --> 13:25.970]  And that television set was broadcasting that live.
[13:26.550 --> 13:30.570]  And just by doing that, it made it seem so much more significant, so much bigger.
[13:30.730 --> 13:37.290]  And I realized back in the States, we never do that kind of thing for rallies that are, that are ten times that size.
[13:37.430 --> 13:41.390]  It was on all of the news stations, all the, the national broadcasters.
[13:41.390 --> 13:45.890]  And when you consider that it was an anti-government rally, uh, that says a lot.
[13:46.030 --> 13:52.630]  That tells you that, uh, the media is not state controlled or it's not, uh, being, uh, biased in a particular way.
[13:52.790 --> 14:01.510]  If anything, they, they devoted, uh, a, uh, a really, um, incredible amount of time to something that didn't seem that big to us.
[14:02.030 --> 14:04.210]  So, um, it was, uh, it was an eye-opener.
[14:05.550 --> 14:06.650]  Um, I have a question.
[14:06.990 --> 14:07.450]  Go ahead.
[14:07.570 --> 14:12.850]  You guys, uh, you guys were talking about how you were kind of surprised at the kind of life that the city had that maybe you thought it wouldn't have had.
[14:13.390 --> 14:18.050]  Um, now, because of its, how isolated it still is, we may not expect any to be there.
[14:18.050 --> 14:21.570]  But did you guys, by any chance, come across or hear of any hackerspaces?
[14:22.310 --> 14:23.110]  In Albania?
[14:23.330 --> 14:24.130]  Uh, no.
[14:24.510 --> 14:26.470]  Uh, um, I, I would have loved to have.
[14:26.550 --> 14:30.550]  But, you know, I think that there are hackerspaces in Albania.
[14:30.650 --> 14:32.030]  I think there are hackers in Albania.
[14:32.130 --> 14:36.910]  We just, um, didn't have the means to really get through and, and, and reach these people.
[14:37.470 --> 14:50.330]  Uh, they were so open, so friendly, never, I mean, we've been, we've been paranoid traveling, as I think most people would be, thinking we're gonna get mugged or have our pockets picked or something like that.
[14:50.650 --> 14:54.590]  But literally not once have we actually been threatened.
[14:54.750 --> 14:59.010]  We've had people come up to us asking for money, of course, and things like that.
[14:59.010 --> 15:03.510]  But it's, it's, it's always been a very peaceful and, and supportive environment.
[15:03.930 --> 15:07.030]  Every place we've gone, all the former Yugoslav republics and Albania.
[15:07.590 --> 15:15.830]  And, uh, for me, it was just such a cool experience to finally, finally be standing in this most mysterious city that I'd heard about for so many years.
[15:16.050 --> 15:18.690]  Of course, it's nowhere near as mysterious as it once was.
[15:19.050 --> 15:30.550]  Uh, but I really think this is, um, uh, this is a fun place, a fun destination for a lot of people to go to and just sort of, uh, walk around and, uh, and not feel the pressure that you feel in, in, in a tourist environment.
[15:30.750 --> 15:32.190]  Of course, there are gonna be missteps.
[15:32.370 --> 15:34.030]  We, uh, we made a few mistakes.
[15:34.470 --> 15:38.150]  Uh, Carl actually, uh, made, well, we both made this mistake.
[15:38.150 --> 15:41.310]  We went to an ATM to get a few, uh, extra lex.
[15:41.670 --> 15:43.770]  Lex are, are the, um, are the, are the currency.
[15:44.450 --> 15:47.670]  Uh, and, um, you know, we've been through so many different kinds of currency.
[15:47.810 --> 15:48.830]  It's, it's insane.
[15:49.250 --> 15:50.530]  Uh, just trying to keep track of it all.
[15:50.590 --> 15:53.530]  Just trying to keep, uh, leftovers in your pocket from merging with each other.
[15:53.950 --> 15:56.810]  Uh, and, uh, we took out, uh, 30,000 lex.
[15:56.890 --> 16:00.350]  It sounds like a lot of money, but, um, we understood it to be about maybe $30.
[16:01.470 --> 16:02.350]  Except it wasn't.
[16:02.510 --> 16:05.710]  It actually, actually, we, we were off by, by a zero.
[16:05.710 --> 16:10.070]  Uh, the reason we got, we got, uh, confused was because it was the second choice.
[16:10.170 --> 16:13.230]  Actually, it was, it was the first choice on the second column.
[16:13.410 --> 16:18.050]  It was kind of like the election of 2000, uh, with that confusion level.
[16:18.230 --> 16:19.870]  And we were senior citizens in Florida.
[16:20.170 --> 16:24.250]  And what we did was we selected the, the second, what we thought was the second choice.
[16:24.250 --> 16:25.990]  It was actually maybe the fourth or fifth choice.
[16:25.990 --> 16:29.410]  And so we inadvertently took out 300 U.S.
[16:29.510 --> 16:31.990]  dollars, actually 300 euro, which is more than 300 U.S.
[16:32.050 --> 16:37.430]  dollars, in a currency that has absolutely no value outside of the country one day before we were going to leave.
[16:38.410 --> 16:42.910]  Uh, and that's the kind of misstep that you, you might take occasionally when visiting foreign lands.
[16:43.070 --> 16:48.410]  We chose to look upon this with humor and try to figure out a way to, to get rid of all that money.
[16:48.410 --> 16:54.430]  And, um, and we actually did because fortunately the hotel we were staying in, uh, decided they weren't taking credit cards.
[16:54.910 --> 16:58.910]  And, uh, so we had to pay with cash and that pretty much depleted the whole cash supply.
[16:59.210 --> 17:00.990]  Uh, but yeah, that's the kind of thing that can happen.
[17:02.230 --> 17:02.890]  Expensive hotel.
[17:03.790 --> 17:04.330]  I'm sorry?
[17:04.670 --> 17:05.430]  Expensive hotel.
[17:05.890 --> 17:07.950]  Well, no, that's not the only thing that we spent.
[17:08.050 --> 17:11.430]  Well, first of all, we stayed at the hotel for a few nights, so it's actually quite cheap.
[17:11.730 --> 17:17.010]  Uh, uh, the places we've been staying average maybe, uh, $35, $50 a night.
[17:17.010 --> 17:20.810]  Uh, unless we stay in a hostel, in which case it's a lot cheaper than that.
[17:20.930 --> 17:23.530]  So it's really, it's seemingly cheap in some, some places.
[17:23.650 --> 17:29.450]  Meals you get, uh, uh, with incredible amounts of food and, and you wind up paying the equivalent of $20 for two people.
[17:30.230 --> 17:34.330]  Uh, and so yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's definitely cheap for, by our standards.
[17:34.490 --> 17:38.790]  But of course people living there, uh, survive on, on, on far, far less.
[17:39.230 --> 17:46.210]  Um, so anyway, after Albania, we, uh, we then took, uh, a grueling bus ride into Kosovo, into Pristina.
[17:46.670 --> 17:47.910]  And, uh, spent a day there.
[17:48.030 --> 17:52.910]  That was, that was very interesting and, and, um, um, enlightening place, international type of a city.
[17:53.250 --> 17:58.270]  Uh, and then after that, uh, we, we took a short bus ride, uh, into, uh, into Macedonia.
[17:58.510 --> 18:03.290]  In fact, we just, only an hour or so ago, met up with a bunch of hackers, uh, who have a hackerspace here.
[18:03.430 --> 18:06.250]  We're gonna see the hackerspace tomorrow, uh, here in Skopje.
[18:06.790 --> 18:10.050]  And, um, and hopefully learn a lot more about the hacker community.
[18:10.130 --> 18:13.970]  They're in touch with other hackers and other former Yugoslav republics.
[18:14.210 --> 18:17.930]  Uh, so, uh, that's, it's always good to know that there are, there are listeners out there.
[18:18.070 --> 18:18.910]  There are hackers out there.
[18:19.010 --> 18:24.430]  There are people, uh, that, uh, that kind of are, are supportive of what we're doing.
[18:24.570 --> 18:25.670]  And we're supportive of what they're doing.
[18:25.830 --> 18:27.550]  So many people want to come to Hope.
[18:27.830 --> 18:31.730]  Hackers on Planet Earth conference taking place in July in New York City.
[18:32.330 --> 18:38.750]  And, uh, you know, the, the, the question that we always get is, uh, uh, how can I get into the United States?
[18:38.750 --> 18:41.930]  Uh, how can I get past these visa requirements?
[18:41.950 --> 18:52.130]  Because what the United States requires of, of many people from Europe, like maybe all people from Europe except from the UK, I believe, uh, they require them to apply for a visa.
[18:52.410 --> 19:05.230]  Uh, in the case of former Yugoslav republics, I'm not entirely sure about this, but I've heard, uh, that, uh, you need some kind of letter of invitation or you need some kind of proof that you're not going to stay or, or something really unreasonable,
[19:05.470 --> 19:08.170]  something that we don't ever have to worry about when we come over here.
[19:08.590 --> 19:21.410]  Uh, and I'd like to say that, uh, if any, anybody out in a foreign country wants to come to the next Hope this July and is having problems like that, please write to us and we will do everything we can to help you.
[19:21.890 --> 19:38.810]  Uh, one person, uh, talked about coming to the United States from Macedonia and how he was able to get into the country because he was, he, he received a letter from a company, uh, saying that he was, um, a client and was coming for a conference or, or for a,
[19:38.890 --> 19:40.630]  um, a job or something like that.
[19:40.770 --> 19:45.530]  Uh, we will consider the thousands of people who come to the Hope Conference as clients.
[19:45.790 --> 19:54.750]  And we will happily write them all letters, inviting them to the country and saying whatever it is that needs to be said to make the process go smoother, if that's what it takes.
[19:54.750 --> 20:09.390]  Uh, we're happy to try and find cheap airfare and ways around bureaucracies, uh, because we think it's very important, uh, to have people meet, to have hackers meet and, uh, share information and experiences and things like that.
[20:09.510 --> 20:14.950]  There's no better feeling than this going to a foreign land and finding people, uh, that, uh, share this.
[20:15.130 --> 20:23.810]  In fact, tonight we found two different groups of people and we were able to merge them together and some of them actually knew each other in different contexts.
[20:23.810 --> 20:25.830]  So it's, it's really cool to do things like that.
[20:25.910 --> 20:28.390]  And that happens when people come to New York as well.
[20:28.550 --> 20:31.950]  So please write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[20:32.030 --> 20:43.250]  If, uh, you have any questions, go to the hope forums, talk.hope.net, uh, and we'll be, uh, posting information about air, airline tickets and, uh, cheap fares and things like that.
[20:43.250 --> 20:46.790]  Have you needed any visas to travel where you've been over there?
[20:46.810 --> 20:48.370]  Has it just been that you're a U.S.
[20:48.430 --> 20:49.110]  citizen and that's enough?
[20:49.190 --> 20:54.490]  We haven't needed any visas, uh, or any permission whatsoever to go anyplace.
[20:54.710 --> 20:58.710]  Uh, we haven't very lucky that we almost made a, uh, a really bad misstep.
[20:58.910 --> 21:02.090]  And the only thing that saved us, uh, was a bus schedule.
[21:02.090 --> 21:09.030]  We were in, uh, Tirana, Albania, and we knew that we had to get either to, uh, to Macedonia or to Kosovo.
[21:09.030 --> 21:15.070]  Originally we were going to go to Macedonia and then Kosovo and then finally back to Belgrade and Serbia.
[21:15.390 --> 21:25.950]  What we found out since, uh, we basically, we chose to go to Pristina in Kosovo first because the bus schedule just seemed better to go there instead of, uh, Skopje in, uh, in Macedonia.
[21:26.470 --> 21:31.010]  Had we done it the way we originally planned on though, we would have wound up in Kosovo.
[21:31.150 --> 21:34.770]  And then from there, uh, we would have been attempting to go back into Serbia.
[21:35.070 --> 21:37.850]  Well, Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo as a country.
[21:37.850 --> 21:49.390]  And what would have happened was we would have been asked by the Serbian border guards, uh, how we got into Serbia since we didn't have a Serbian stamp since Kosovo, uh, didn't give us a Serbian stamp when we entered.
[21:49.650 --> 21:55.530]  And then we would have been determined to have entered Serbia illegally and all kinds of fun would have happened as a result of that.
[21:55.770 --> 22:05.030]  Uh, so by going to Kosovo first, then Macedonia, then back into Serbia, we apparently avert all that, but then again, you know, we never know what's going to happen.
[22:05.210 --> 22:05.550]  Wait a minute.
[22:05.810 --> 22:09.830]  But there's a border guard and they're telling you that you're already in their country.
[22:09.930 --> 22:11.150]  That doesn't seem to make any sense.
[22:11.430 --> 22:11.550]  Yeah.
[22:11.610 --> 22:12.930]  They want to know how you got into the country.
[22:13.230 --> 22:16.810]  And, uh, since they don't recognize Kosovo, you know, it's all mind games.
[22:17.070 --> 22:17.810]  But if they don't recognize...
[22:18.390 --> 22:19.710]  Everybody's playing mind games with each other.
[22:19.710 --> 22:29.350]  The Dutch, they're playing mind games with, with, um, with Serbia because they blame Serbia for making the Dutch look bad for standing by and letting a massacre happen years ago.
[22:29.850 --> 22:32.950]  Uh, and of course, uh, Serbia is playing mind games with Kosovo.
[22:33.290 --> 22:37.910]  You can't fly over Serbian airspace, uh, to get, uh, to Kosovo.
[22:37.910 --> 22:39.050]  You have to go all the way around.
[22:39.550 --> 22:45.410]  You know, these, these, these, uh, little battles are continuing and they're going to continue for quite some time.
[22:45.650 --> 22:49.470]  The hope is that the wars are over and that the bloodshed is over.
[22:50.550 --> 22:56.850]  So these border guards you encounter would be when you leave Serbia, not when you go into it because they, they don't believe there to be a border in there.
[22:57.230 --> 23:01.510]  Well, no, uh, there is, uh, that very definite border between Kosovo and Serbia.
[23:01.870 --> 23:12.230]  And had we gone from Kosovo into Serbia, that's where a gentleman would have gotten onto our bus or train or whatnot and inquired as to how we got into Serbia.
[23:12.670 --> 23:17.610]  Because his definition of, of where Serbia began would be where Kosovo actually began.
[23:18.170 --> 23:31.370]  And since the border guard at Kosovo didn't stamp our passport because he believes that Kosovo is not part of Serbia, um, well, it just, we would have gotten in the thick of, of a big argument between them.
[23:31.550 --> 23:33.410]  And, uh, it's just a good thing we didn't do it that way.
[23:33.490 --> 23:36.130]  It just seems interesting that you'd have a border guard in the middle of your country.
[23:36.670 --> 23:37.110]  Yeah.
[23:37.330 --> 23:51.790]  Well, of course, if that border guard were to move into the end of Kosovo, there'd be war again, because, uh, that's, that's what started this whole thing is that Kosovo broke away from Serbia, but Serbia does not recognize that, but they've agreed to keep their border guards away.
[23:52.750 --> 23:54.970]  It's welcome to the Balkans.
[23:55.110 --> 23:56.570]  This is the kind of thing that happens.
[23:56.570 --> 23:59.130]  Now, is there still a really strong military presence?
[23:59.810 --> 24:00.590]  Uh, yeah.
[24:00.790 --> 24:08.250]  Well, in, um, in Pristina, in Kosovo, it's, it's more or less an international city, uh, that you have K4, the Kosovo force.
[24:08.250 --> 24:15.030]  You've got, uh, all kinds of, uh, of United Nations and NATO people walking around and ambassadors.
[24:15.690 --> 24:19.650]  And, uh, yeah, there, there are radio stations in virtually every language.
[24:20.070 --> 24:29.870]  And, uh, a side effect of that, there are restaurants and all, all different, uh, uh, backgrounds from different parts of the world, because the whole world seems to be there to keep the peace.
[24:30.550 --> 24:34.090]  And, um, it's, it seems to be holding up for now.
[24:34.550 --> 24:37.970]  Uh, I didn't see as much devastation as I saw in parts of Bosnia.
[24:37.970 --> 24:41.950]  They seem to be really, uh, uh, cleaning things up a lot quicker.
[24:42.430 --> 24:50.630]  And also, um, uh, there's a lot of, uh, unexploded ordnance around that, uh, you know, you don't walk into, uh, into fields or forests.
[24:50.910 --> 24:52.710]  Uh, so there's a lot of work yet to be done.
[24:52.910 --> 25:01.650]  But, um, yeah, international force there, uh, somewhat of an international force, uh, in, in, in Sarajevo, but not, uh, not nearly as much as in Kosovo.
[25:03.390 --> 25:05.090]  Now, how does that affect your everyday life?
[25:05.230 --> 25:06.530]  Are you still have to go through checkpoints everywhere?
[25:07.350 --> 25:08.250]  No, not really.
[25:08.550 --> 25:10.910]  Uh, the checkpoints really only occur at the borders.
[25:10.910 --> 25:16.590]  Uh, we had, we weren't really, uh, uh, controlled or, or told not to go in certain places.
[25:16.590 --> 25:22.110]  Of course, we didn't really try to get behind, uh, uh, too many barriers or, or things like that.
[25:22.550 --> 25:25.850]  Uh, remember the, the, the last war took place in 1999.
[25:25.970 --> 25:29.890]  So it has been a while, uh, since the actual conflicts have happened.
[25:30.270 --> 25:33.130]  Uh, but there is, uh, the scars are still there.
[25:33.390 --> 25:36.310]  And, uh, the remnants are, are going to be there for a very long time.
[25:37.390 --> 25:40.510]  Anything else you want to share, or should we move to, uh, what's going on in New York?
[25:40.710 --> 25:42.210]  I think that's pretty much, um, everything.
[25:42.610 --> 25:45.750]  Uh, and, uh, we have other, other stories to deal with.
[25:46.310 --> 25:48.710]  Um, so yeah, let's, uh, let's get in.
[25:48.730 --> 25:52.030]  I understand there's a verdict in the whole Sarah Palin thing.
[25:53.010 --> 25:54.750]  Do we have to talk about Sarah Palin?
[25:55.090 --> 26:00.110]  Well, no, we don't talk about Sarah Palin, but I think we should talk about the poor guy that was found, uh, found guilty.
[26:00.110 --> 26:01.450]  Well, Bernie, do you know more about this?
[26:01.570 --> 26:02.250]  Was he found guilty?
[26:02.870 --> 26:14.770]  Yeah, this, uh, college student, David Cornell, uh, a couple years ago, while the, uh, presidential, uh, campaign was going on, which, uh, Sarah Palin was running as, uh, vice president with John McCain.
[26:15.090 --> 26:29.930]  Um, he, uh, he guessed that, he, he was able to get into her email account, allegedly, by, uh, answering the three very difficult, uh, password hint questions that Sarah Palin, uh, set up on her personal Yahoo email account.
[26:30.150 --> 26:31.810]  Those questions were, what is your birthday?
[26:32.250 --> 26:33.510]  What is your zip code?
[26:33.670 --> 26:35.190]  And where did you meet your husband?
[26:35.750 --> 26:42.790]  And he had the audacity to, to try guessing the three answers of those, which were readily available online as public information.
[26:43.530 --> 26:46.850]  Um, and, uh, checked her email.
[26:47.090 --> 27:04.650]  Ostensibly, he was looking to see if her, her Yahoo email account was being used illegally, uh, uh, for state business in an attempt to hide, for her to hide, uh, stuff that, from her, uh, official, uh, governors of Alaska's mail account, which, you know,
[27:04.850 --> 27:06.770]  is, is available for public review.
[27:07.090 --> 27:10.370]  Um, in any case, uh, that caused huge headlines.
[27:10.670 --> 27:15.930]  And, uh, they tracked him down, uh, through various proxies and so forth.
[27:16.290 --> 27:22.870]  And, um, he was sentenced, uh, a few days ago for, uh, uh, committing, uh, wire fraud.
[27:23.690 --> 27:29.190]  But, uh, I don't know, they, they, the jury acquitted him of wire fraud and they deadlocked him the charge of identity theft.
[27:29.630 --> 27:32.770]  But they found him guilty of felony destruction of records.
[27:33.570 --> 27:38.810]  And, uh, they found him guilty of a misdemeanor, uh, obtaining information from a protected computer.
[27:38.990 --> 27:40.030]  He hasn't been sentenced yet.
[27:40.290 --> 27:42.570]  We don't know how many years he's going to get in federal prison.
[27:42.570 --> 27:44.550]  But, uh, there's been some outcry.
[27:44.710 --> 27:59.350]  The, uh, the, uh, the administrator of, uh, ctunnel.com, which is an anonymity proxy that was used to access, uh, Palin's account, he criticized the federal prosecutors for distorting the facts, uh, in an attempt to score legal appointees.
[27:59.370 --> 28:00.810]  He told, he said, uh, that U.S.
[28:00.850 --> 28:09.490]  attorneys told him privately that they wanted to show, quote, as much commerce as possible, end quote, by emphasizing connections to his, that his proxies need to add servers.
[28:09.670 --> 28:12.990]  He said, even though his site almost always filters out ad content.
[28:13.270 --> 28:15.130]  And here's a quote from one of the federal witnesses.
[28:15.490 --> 28:26.590]  Um, I'd rather not have anything useful to provide to law enforcement and have him get away with it than allow them to put on this dog-and-pong pony show and try to get, and so they can put him away for the rest of his life.
[28:26.930 --> 28:28.630]  He said, it's just wrong.
[28:28.630 --> 28:31.830]  To the extent I can legally do so, I'm not going to be part of it.
[28:32.010 --> 28:39.690]  So now he's only going to be logging, uh, information for 48 hours instead of the seven days, which he was, and 48 hours is the minimum required by law.
[28:40.030 --> 28:44.530]  But, uh, the funniest thing is Sarah Palin, uh, compared this whole thing to the Watergate burglary.
[28:44.750 --> 28:49.210]  She said, quote, many of us are concerned about the integrity of our country's political elections.
[28:49.850 --> 28:52.110]  America's elections depend on fair competition.
[28:52.510 --> 28:59.090]  But violating the law or simply invading someone's privacy for political gain has long been repugnant to Americans' sense of airplay.
[28:59.470 --> 29:09.650]  As Watergate taught us, we rightfully reject illegally breaking into candidates' private communications for political intrigue in an attempt to derail an election.
[29:10.590 --> 29:11.990]  But, uh, just imagine.
[29:11.990 --> 29:15.930]  This woman was thought, who's thought, what she thought was good security.
[29:16.070 --> 29:18.690]  Those three crazy password guest questions.
[29:18.790 --> 29:22.090]  She was close to being a heartbeat away from controlling our national security.
[29:22.490 --> 29:24.170]  And that scares me most of all.
[29:24.370 --> 29:28.670]  Well, you know, I think Bernie, uh, yeah, that is scary right there.
[29:28.670 --> 29:41.150]  But I think what's most telling is, uh, the coldness here of, you have somebody who was simply, uh, uh, doing something that, you know, any one of us, I think, would have attempted.
[29:41.490 --> 29:52.250]  Because, wow, somebody is really that thick that they can't protect their, their email account, which was suspected of being used for political purposes, which, uh, was, was against the law.
[29:52.610 --> 30:02.290]  Uh, uh, the way she, she's reacted to this, it's not to show any kind of compassion to this person who is not, it's not the same thing as Watergate.
[30:02.390 --> 30:06.270]  He's not a professional, uh, a professional person breaking in, stealing things.
[30:06.270 --> 30:07.630]  It wasn't anything like that.
[30:07.630 --> 30:14.490]  It was a kid simply trying to outwit a security, uh, blockade, which wasn't very secure at all.
[30:14.650 --> 30:20.430]  And in fact, it was a real, uh, wake-up call to her and a lot of other people to, to use some common sense.
[30:21.070 --> 30:25.630]  But, you know, instead of saying, okay, you got me, very funny, let's move on.
[30:25.870 --> 30:30.970]  She doesn't seem to have any qualms whatsoever about sending this kid away for God knows how many years.
[30:31.090 --> 30:32.410]  What's he facing, 20 years plus?
[30:32.710 --> 30:34.790]  Uh, yeah, it's really unclear.
[30:34.790 --> 30:41.310]  I mean, the federal guidelines provide, you know, literally decades of, of potential federal prison time for him.
[30:41.830 --> 30:48.850]  But, um, it, the federal fraud statutes are kind of based on the, the amount of dollar lost its claims.
[30:49.510 --> 30:58.030]  So, at the sentencing phase, the feds are going to try to come up with probably all kinds of fictitious dollar amounts, as they did in, like, Kevin Mitnick's case and a lot of other hacker cases.
[30:58.570 --> 31:05.250]  And, uh, fortunately, the sentencing stage, there's no, there's no burden of proof from the government to, to, to back up these numbers with any real facts.
[31:05.570 --> 31:09.130]  So, it'll be true to say at the sentencing phase, which will probably be in a couple of months.
[31:09.830 --> 31:11.290]  Um, you know...
[31:11.290 --> 31:14.830]  I can imagine the hell he's going through in those couple of months wondering what's going to happen.
[31:16.110 --> 31:25.310]  So, he could, he literally is probably going to spend, you know, multiple years in prison for guessing her birthday, her zip code, and where she met her husband.
[31:25.810 --> 31:30.890]  And, and sharing that with other people saying, hey, look, can you believe she was so stupid as to use those password guess questions?
[31:31.930 --> 31:32.370]  Pathetic.
[31:32.590 --> 31:33.150]  Absolutely pathetic.
[31:34.070 --> 31:34.630]  All right.
[31:34.710 --> 31:39.690]  Well, we have this other, uh, interesting story that broke that, uh, I, I heard about.
[31:40.450 --> 31:43.830]  Um, and, uh, this is what happened in, in, in Times Square.
[31:43.830 --> 31:58.470]  Now, some, some lame brain apparently tried to sell some really, really badly engineered and implemented explosive device in a car, and then basically did everything short of painting a target on it to draw attention to it.
[31:59.070 --> 32:03.970]  Um, and, um, and we learned some interesting things about how he was, uh, he was tracked down.
[32:03.970 --> 32:05.250]  Do you guys have information on all this?
[32:05.910 --> 32:06.110]  Right.
[32:06.410 --> 32:16.330]  So basically the way the feds tracked him down, um, and it's not sure, you know, I read some things that, they basically caught him as he was on the plane and the plane had already pulled away from the gate.
[32:16.690 --> 32:26.610]  Um, and it's not clear if they didn't, you know, know until the last moment or if, if they were waiting to see maybe he's going to call somebody or something and, you know, collecting as much information as they could.
[32:26.730 --> 32:38.570]  Uh, but basically the way they traced him, uh, was to find a vehicle identification number on, uh, the car, uh, one, he had, they had filed one off, but not, um, not all of them.
[32:39.030 --> 32:41.950]  And, uh, using that they were able to find the original owner of the car.
[32:42.210 --> 32:47.030]  Uh, once they had the original owner, uh, the owner said, I sold it on Craigslist.
[32:47.030 --> 32:48.650]  Uh, you know, it was a cash deal.
[32:48.690 --> 32:57.290]  Uh, but the, but the, uh, suspect basically had arranged the deal using a cell phone to call the previous owner.
[32:57.450 --> 33:01.630]  So they use the cell phone records to track who it was or to find out who it was.
[33:02.510 --> 33:04.430]  Was it a prepaid cell phone or something?
[33:04.990 --> 33:05.650]  I don't know.
[33:05.750 --> 33:06.390]  I don't think so.
[33:06.770 --> 33:21.590]  It was a prepaid cell phone, but the funny thing is, it's the same cell phone number that this alleged wannabe bomber gave to Customs when he came in as the contact number of one of the people he was coming to visit.
[33:22.090 --> 33:27.190]  So it was already in the Fed's database, and they plugged it in, and they came up as a matcher, and they're like, uh-huh.
[33:27.190 --> 33:27.270]  Uh-huh.
[33:28.330 --> 33:32.330]  But as a former ATF official said, this guy didn't leave a bunch of breadcrumbs.
[33:32.430 --> 33:35.610]  He left a bunch of bread trucks forced to find him.
[33:35.610 --> 33:41.290]  It was like, the guy left every conceivable possible clue leading right to get him.
[33:41.330 --> 33:48.190]  And it was amazing that it took the Fed a couple of days to even find him with all the information they had.
[33:48.350 --> 33:58.170]  Well, again, they could have just been playing a waiting game to see, you know, because once they knew who he was and they could see maybe he's leaving the country, they had up until the moment the plane took off to stop it.
[33:58.290 --> 34:02.830]  So they could have just been waiting to see, is he going to call somebody or, you know, collect more information.
[34:04.030 --> 34:06.430]  I find it interesting as Mayor Gruber...
[34:06.430 --> 34:22.850]  There's also a pretty interesting piece about what this bomb, quote-unquote bomb, actually was made up of, I believe, by a former, Bernie, you sent this, this, who was it?
[34:23.130 --> 34:36.010]  Yeah, a former high-ranking ATF, Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and Explosives official, said that a lot of this wannabe bomb consisted of, quote, green fertilizer.
[34:36.010 --> 34:39.290]  This is the kind of fertilizer that doesn't even have nitrogen in it.
[34:39.290 --> 34:47.610]  It's not explosive, you know, like the kind of fertilizer that can be used to make the kind of bombs made with fertilizer and diesel fuel.
[34:48.310 --> 34:50.550]  It's just like a bad bag of fertilizer in there.
[34:50.670 --> 34:52.090]  Maybe you wanted to build a stink bomb.
[34:52.450 --> 34:53.190]  I don't know.
[34:53.350 --> 34:55.010]  But that and some propane tanks.
[34:55.090 --> 35:02.370]  You have, like, a barbecue grill and a couple of jugs of gasoline and some, like, consumer-grade fireworks.
[35:02.950 --> 35:04.350]  And, you know, it didn't go off.
[35:04.370 --> 35:06.370]  It could not have gone off, according to ATF.
[35:06.370 --> 35:08.750]  It was physically impossible for this thing to explode.
[35:09.330 --> 35:10.270]  It might have caught on fire.
[35:10.450 --> 35:14.530]  And, like, if somebody was standing right next to the car, they might have gotten burned badly.
[35:14.530 --> 35:16.990]  But this was not a bomb, as is being described.
[35:18.070 --> 35:24.770]  And Mayor Bloomberg is saying that they only had 82 cameras, police cameras, in Times Square.
[35:24.910 --> 35:25.990]  But they need a lot more now.
[35:26.870 --> 35:28.490]  Bernie, they have 82.
[35:28.870 --> 35:31.410]  Times Square, for people who are not from New York, is not that big.
[35:31.530 --> 35:34.070]  It's, like, I mean, it's full of people, but it's not that big.
[35:34.070 --> 35:36.830]  Like, they have 82 cameras, and they think that's not enough?
[35:37.070 --> 35:41.290]  The NYPD says they only have 82 cameras in Times Square.
[35:41.410 --> 35:47.110]  Now, there's probably a lot more that are privately owned by companies and corporations and, you know, banks and that kind of thing.
[35:47.250 --> 35:52.130]  But the police department itself has 82 in Times Square.
[35:52.130 --> 35:55.390]  But they say they need a lot more now because, you know, because of this.
[35:55.390 --> 35:58.270]  You know, the thing is, these cameras, they don't prevent crime.
[35:58.710 --> 36:01.710]  You know, how would more cameras prevent this guy from doing the same thing?
[36:02.390 --> 36:03.190]  I don't see it.
[36:03.330 --> 36:04.530]  Right, and they caught him anyway.
[36:05.210 --> 36:14.630]  Yeah, and I think what we're going to see here, though, are a lot of people saying, yes, of course we need more cameras because that's the only way you're going to find people like this.
[36:14.690 --> 36:20.150]  Maybe it won't prevent it from happening, but it'll at least allow them to see who the person was.
[36:20.150 --> 36:23.290]  And you have the success of them finding the person this time.
[36:23.510 --> 36:30.970]  How do you counter something like that where it just seems like, yeah, more cameras are going to make us all accountable for everything we do.
[36:31.030 --> 36:35.650]  And you can't even park a truck crooked in a street without somebody figuring out who you are eventually.
[36:35.650 --> 36:36.890]  How is that a bad thing?
[36:38.970 --> 36:42.910]  I think, I mean, the evidence is that these cameras don't work.
[36:43.030 --> 36:47.850]  But I think also the evidence is that the people pushing for these cameras don't care that they don't work.
[36:47.850 --> 37:03.210]  Either they just want to appear to be doing something, which, and it's certainly something to install cameras, or they have other reasons to want to know where everyone's going and they think that these trucks are a good excuse to put them in.
[37:03.350 --> 37:13.070]  But there's, you know, all the security experts, the Times did a piece where they just interviewed a whole bunch of security experts and none of them said that cameras would help in a situation like this.
[37:15.390 --> 37:16.350]  Well, interesting.
[37:16.930 --> 37:23.030]  Have you guys seen any reaction in the streets of New York towards this, more security or anything like that?
[37:24.090 --> 37:25.590]  I haven't been to Times Square.
[37:26.510 --> 37:28.650]  Well, no, it would extend throughout.
[37:28.830 --> 37:35.130]  I mean, if somebody blows up a subway in Moscow, people with guns start watching over the subways in New York.
[37:36.350 --> 37:38.670]  So obviously it goes beyond Times Square.
[37:38.670 --> 37:42.810]  I guess the blank looks on those faces of the people in the studio would mean the answer is no.
[37:42.890 --> 37:44.570]  Yeah, I haven't noticed anything.
[37:44.830 --> 37:49.250]  I've only been back in New York for a few days and I've absolutely noticed no difference in police activity here.
[37:49.510 --> 37:52.810]  But we already had, I mean, we already have, in general, heavy police activity.
[37:53.010 --> 37:57.930]  I mean, you go on Grand Central and you have, you know, lots of police walking around and in different subway stations and stuff.
[37:57.930 --> 38:00.790]  So it's not like, it's not like the presence was non-existent.
[38:01.410 --> 38:01.810]  It's already...
[38:01.810 --> 38:04.190]  And then, you know, there's more, it's just kind of the same.
[38:04.190 --> 38:08.010]  It's already so high, we may not even notice the difference anymore.
[38:09.690 --> 38:13.350]  The Times Square was evacuated for several hours once...
[38:13.350 --> 38:21.090]  What happened is a t-shirt vendor saw this SUV where the wannabe bomb was in and the vehicle was smoking.
[38:21.430 --> 38:24.390]  And he told the police, hey, there's smoke coming out of this car.
[38:24.610 --> 38:28.690]  And then bomb squad was called and Times Square was evacuated for several hours.
[38:28.770 --> 38:31.990]  But the next day, everything was back to normal, according to news reports I've read and heard.
[38:32.510 --> 38:37.030]  So people just sort of got on with their lives, realizing that this was, you know, a really lame attempt.
[38:37.290 --> 38:42.210]  Fortunately, the alleged perpetrator did not know what he was possibly doing.
[38:42.350 --> 38:55.550]  The funny thing is, though, is that news reports say that he admitted to ever receiving five months of bomb explosives training in Waziristan just before committing this alleged act.
[38:55.550 --> 39:01.910]  And that must be really bad tech support in Waziristan and how to build a bomb, if that's what he came up with.
[39:02.810 --> 39:09.510]  Yeah, according to that ex-ATF official, this is the quote, the way it was set up, this was just not going to work well.
[39:09.510 --> 39:11.850]  It was more likely not going to function.
[39:11.850 --> 39:13.510]  It was going to be very unreliable.
[39:13.650 --> 39:16.470]  The fireworks, the fertilizer, it was just too complicated.
[39:16.710 --> 39:20.050]  It was a grandiose plot, but sort of a ridiculous device.
[39:20.050 --> 39:27.950]  And I have to wonder, why is it the people who do these things, who try to set their underwear on fire or their shoes or all kinds of things, why are they so stupid?
[39:28.110 --> 39:29.950]  Why don't smart people ever do this kind of thing?
[39:30.070 --> 39:31.510]  You know, it might not be stupidity, though.
[39:31.730 --> 39:33.910]  It could just be lack of access to materials.
[39:34.230 --> 39:41.230]  I mean, you know, getting your hands on a bunch of propane tanks versus getting your hands on a bunch of C4 is a lot easier.
[39:41.710 --> 39:45.710]  And the C4 throws up a lot higher flags if you're trying to get a lot of it.
[39:45.850 --> 39:48.950]  Yeah, but presumably he could have gone to the garden store and bought the right kind of fertilizer.
[39:48.950 --> 39:49.410]  Well, that's true.
[39:49.830 --> 39:50.270]  Yeah.
[39:50.750 --> 40:04.370]  There's obviously some limits to what people can procure easily, but it seems like he's not even, you know, to the great fortune of everyone who was in Times Square that day, but it seems like he's not even doing the things that he could have done if he'd wanted to hurt people.
[40:05.030 --> 40:11.270]  What's this I hear about the media running the wrong picture of somebody else when they were looking for the guy?
[40:11.510 --> 40:14.470]  Well, there's this picture that's been all over the media.
[40:14.470 --> 40:19.650]  Yeah, that's from Orcut, which is a social network that I thought was only used by people from Brazil.
[40:19.850 --> 40:26.810]  But apparently there's another guy with the same name who's on Facebook, and some media outlets took that picture instead.
[40:27.750 --> 40:28.170]  That's funny.
[40:28.250 --> 40:28.690]  Okay.
[40:29.130 --> 40:29.750]  That's great.
[40:30.170 --> 40:31.530]  That's unfortunate for that guy.
[40:31.810 --> 40:32.050]  Yeah.
[40:32.730 --> 40:34.350]  Well, that's the world of social networking for you.
[40:34.430 --> 40:40.990]  Speaking of social networking, there's more about the whole Twitter archive at the Library of Congress.
[40:41.470 --> 40:45.490]  I saw something on this blog, Library of Congress blog.
[40:45.710 --> 40:46.790]  I didn't know they had blogs there.
[40:47.310 --> 40:52.750]  But basically, this is how they define the whole operation, which we reported on a few weeks ago.
[40:52.930 --> 41:01.730]  Twitter is part of the historical record of communication, news reporting, and social trends, all of which complement the Library's existing cultural heritage collections.
[41:01.910 --> 41:05.730]  It is a direct record of important events, such as the 2008 U.S.
[41:05.810 --> 41:08.570]  presidential election, or the Green Revolution in Iran.
[41:08.570 --> 41:15.630]  It also serves as a news feed with minute-by-minute headlines from major news sources, such as Reuters, The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times.
[41:15.790 --> 41:21.630]  At the same time, it is a platform for citizen journalism, with many significant events being first reported by eyewitnesses.
[41:21.870 --> 41:28.550]  The Library of Congress collections include items such as the very first telegram ever sent by telegraph inventor Samuel F.B.
[41:28.690 --> 41:33.550]  Morse, oral histories from veterans and ordinary citizens, and many other firsthand accounts of history.
[41:33.550 --> 41:43.890]  These collections and others have left behind glimpses of the lives of ordinary people, thereby enriching knowledge of the context of public events recorded in government documents and newspapers.
[41:44.370 --> 41:55.270]  Individual tweets... I'm sorry, individually, tweets might seem insignificant, but viewed in the aggregate, they can be a resource for future generations to understand life in the 21st century.
[41:55.490 --> 41:57.970]  The Library did not pay for the archive.
[41:57.970 --> 42:00.790]  Rather, it was a gift from Twitter.
[42:01.170 --> 42:02.550]  I have to wonder, really?
[42:02.710 --> 42:05.170]  I mean, is this something that we are considering?
[42:05.450 --> 42:11.550]  Emmanuel, I think you don't hang out with librarians all that often, because the ones I hang out with, they'll save anything.
[42:12.370 --> 42:14.890]  And I think that this falls into that category.
[42:15.570 --> 42:26.550]  You know, the mindset is generally that it's worth saving everything, or everything that you can save, because you don't know in the future what will be important.
[42:26.550 --> 42:30.910]  If you throw out 90% of the tweets, you might throw out the wrong 90%.
[42:30.910 --> 42:40.490]  With that logic, then, should every scrap of paper that I leave behind in a library be collected by a librarian and Xeroxed and stored someplace, a shopping list?
[42:40.590 --> 42:44.990]  If they could do it for as little cost as this is costing them, I'm sure they would do it.
[42:45.170 --> 42:49.390]  You know, somebody's got to wade through all this and file it, and that just seems like...
[42:49.390 --> 42:49.670]  That's the point.
[42:49.810 --> 42:50.150]  That's the point.
[42:50.270 --> 42:50.630]  Twitter...
[42:50.630 --> 42:52.030]  ...lead to more and more things.
[42:52.130 --> 42:55.350]  Like, okay, if Twitter is on there, then shouldn't Facebook be on there as well?
[42:55.350 --> 42:58.910]  Every single social networking site in the world should be in the Library of Congress.
[42:59.070 --> 43:00.770]  It just seems like a tremendous waste to me.
[43:00.930 --> 43:13.210]  I think if that Facebook or whoever else gave the Library of Congress a set of hard drives that they could keep for the cost of electricity, which is nothing, then sure, why not keep it?
[43:13.650 --> 43:22.710]  It's not like there's librarians reading every single tweet and putting Library of Congress subject headings on each one and making a giant card catalog.
[43:22.710 --> 43:32.570]  You also have to look at it from the point that this, you know, like you mentioned, this is a collection of basically just normal people talking about everyday life, which we don't know.
[43:32.690 --> 43:33.950]  Now, yeah, it's boring.
[43:34.070 --> 43:40.310]  I don't want to read what, you know, you had for lunch, but maybe in 100, 200, 500 years, it would be interesting.
[43:40.590 --> 43:46.210]  And you're talking about something that, you know, only takes up the space of probably two or three books at most.
[43:46.730 --> 43:47.010]  I mean...
[43:47.010 --> 43:49.710]  Okay, lovely, but how do you even know it's real?
[43:49.810 --> 43:56.690]  How do you know that they're not just giving a bunch of hard drives with all kinds of fake information that's now being stored as U.S.
[43:56.810 --> 43:57.250]  history?
[43:57.610 --> 44:00.050]  You know, at least we know the first telegram really happened.
[44:00.050 --> 44:02.830]  At least we know that veterans actually had something to say.
[44:03.350 --> 44:07.270]  A computer could write all this and just make up stuff.
[44:07.550 --> 44:09.090]  And I don't know.
[44:09.230 --> 44:09.530]  I just...
[44:09.530 --> 44:10.490]  I think that...
[44:11.250 --> 44:16.190]  Well, I think that would be more trouble to go to than just giving them the actual tweets, but...
[44:16.190 --> 44:19.750]  Now, is this an ongoing archive, or is it just one set of data right now?
[44:21.290 --> 44:23.270]  None of the articles I've read are clear on that.
[44:23.410 --> 44:27.510]  It's less than five terabytes of data, all the tweets that Twitter donated.
[44:27.950 --> 44:42.150]  But with all the free publicity Twitter's getting from this story, I think it'd be nice if they donated not only the five terabytes of data on a couple hard drives, but also enough money to set up an annuity to pay for a system to store and access it in perpetuity.
[44:42.870 --> 44:48.650]  I think this archive is going to far outlast Twitter.
[44:48.670 --> 44:50.470]  I don't think Twitter's going to be around forever.
[44:51.130 --> 44:53.850]  It might be around another ten or eight years, or who knows?
[44:53.990 --> 44:54.990]  Something else will come along.
[44:55.290 --> 44:58.630]  And it's a tiny snapshot of what people were doing.
[44:58.930 --> 45:01.430]  And most people in the United States are not on Twitter.
[45:01.750 --> 45:07.370]  And compared to the rest of the world, Twitter is just a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what people are talking about.
[45:07.570 --> 45:16.530]  So this is just a small amount of data, and I just wish they would pay the Library of Congress to maintain its being accessible.
[45:16.730 --> 45:19.850]  Bernie, the Library of Congress has a copy of all kinds of things.
[45:19.970 --> 45:22.350]  Five terabytes to them is nothing.
[45:22.630 --> 45:28.010]  I mean, I work with some people who are not at the Library of Congress, but who know people there.
[45:28.190 --> 45:29.990]  You know, they store film.
[45:30.190 --> 45:34.250]  One film scanned at high resolution is more than five terabytes.
[45:34.830 --> 45:35.570]  You know what?
[45:35.730 --> 45:36.530]  I've got a suggestion, then.
[45:36.590 --> 45:37.270]  You're 67 terabytes.
[45:38.090 --> 45:41.830]  I've got a suggestion, then, because you guys are really convincing me that this is worthwhile.
[45:42.470 --> 45:48.750]  I've got logs from the pound 2600 IRC channel that go back for the last ten years or so.
[45:48.790 --> 45:52.290]  And I really think, if anything, as a microcosm of society, it's that.
[45:52.650 --> 45:57.330]  How do I go about donating that to the Library of Congress and ensuring that it's preserved forever?
[45:57.750 --> 45:58.610]  Give them a call.
[45:58.650 --> 45:59.410]  They might be interested.
[45:59.810 --> 46:00.610]  Put it on the hard track.
[46:00.610 --> 46:02.050]  Hey, I'll be making that call.
[46:02.270 --> 46:10.570]  So you're saying I could go on Twitter and create a fake Sarah Palin account and start saying ridiculous things, and they'll be entered into the Library of Congress as historical facts?
[46:11.010 --> 46:11.930]  That's already happened.
[46:11.950 --> 46:13.470]  I don't think that's an original idea.
[46:14.630 --> 46:15.410]  Out or than?
[46:15.570 --> 46:16.190]  I don't know.
[46:16.270 --> 46:17.330]  Probably also out there.
[46:17.430 --> 46:23.590]  That also depends on if this is a continuing archive, like you said before, or if this is a one-time package.
[46:25.170 --> 46:26.570]  I think it's a ridiculous idea.
[46:27.210 --> 46:30.530]  By the way, do I have the right to demand that my tweets not be included?
[46:31.450 --> 46:33.790]  Probably if they're private, they're not included, but I don't know.
[46:34.310 --> 46:37.350]  Well, they're private to the people who follow me, and nobody else.
[46:38.670 --> 46:48.670]  See, this would be a really good question, but unfortunately the media which has been following this is not fully on par with understanding this kind of thing, which to us is fairly simple.
[46:49.070 --> 46:53.690]  They're just like, ooh, they're archiving Twitter, but we don't know exactly what's going on.
[46:53.690 --> 46:55.130]  I'm sure you could email Twitter and ask.
[46:55.290 --> 46:55.950]  We should, yeah.
[46:56.590 --> 47:07.370]  By the way, if you'd like to follow my tweets, I'm Eman Goldstein, and you can see all the fun I'm up to here in the former Yugoslav Republic as I wander around the world.
[47:08.070 --> 47:11.570]  It would be Emanuel Goldstein, except for some reason the UEL doesn't fit.
[47:11.930 --> 47:14.350]  Apparently Twitter can only hold a certain number of characters.
[47:15.250 --> 47:18.550]  And also, The Next Hope has a Twitter account.
[47:18.670 --> 47:23.330]  Please subscribe to that so you can get the most information about what's coming on with the conference.
[47:23.690 --> 47:25.070]  What is its Twitter name?
[47:26.210 --> 47:26.950]  The Next Hope.
[47:27.250 --> 47:27.790]  That's crazy.
[47:28.210 --> 47:28.890]  Yeah, isn't that amazing?
[47:30.110 --> 47:31.730]  Should we take some phone calls?
[47:31.930 --> 47:32.990]  I would love it.
[47:33.170 --> 47:33.530]  All right.
[47:33.610 --> 47:37.930]  Well, I would love it too, but no one has dialed 212-209-2900.
[47:38.170 --> 47:39.970]  But once they do, we'll pick up.
[47:40.350 --> 47:41.290]  Won't that be nice?
[47:42.230 --> 47:42.550]  Okay.
[47:44.590 --> 47:46.690]  Well, when are you coming back, Emanuel?
[47:46.830 --> 47:48.230]  When are you coming back to the United States?
[47:48.350 --> 47:50.410]  Well, I understand the volcano has started up again.
[47:50.630 --> 47:51.050]  Oh, yes.
[47:51.050 --> 47:52.510]  It might not be for a while.
[47:54.170 --> 47:55.210]  Hopefully next week.
[47:55.290 --> 47:57.990]  Hopefully next week at this time, I'll be at the studio.
[47:58.110 --> 48:00.370]  In fact, we have a fundraiser schedule for next week at this time.
[48:00.530 --> 48:01.210]  That's going to be fun.
[48:01.290 --> 48:02.510]  The spring fundraiser is beginning.
[48:03.250 --> 48:06.110]  And we have all kinds of fun plans for that.
[48:07.670 --> 48:08.310]  Next week?
[48:09.210 --> 48:10.310]  I think it's next week.
[48:10.530 --> 48:10.670]  Oh, wow.
[48:10.770 --> 48:11.210]  That's soon.
[48:11.350 --> 48:11.630]  Yeah.
[48:12.050 --> 48:12.810]  I'm pretty sure.
[48:12.930 --> 48:15.230]  So your first show back is going to be a fun one for you.
[48:15.330 --> 48:16.030]  Isn't that something?
[48:16.150 --> 48:16.990]  Isn't that amazing?
[48:17.130 --> 48:17.310]  Yes.
[48:17.510 --> 48:17.670]  A gift.
[48:17.990 --> 48:18.230]  All right.
[48:18.270 --> 48:21.650]  Well, we've got a couple of calls right now, and they don't have to give us money this week.
[48:21.870 --> 48:24.010]  So let's say hello.
[48:24.010 --> 48:24.730]  You're on the air.
[48:26.070 --> 48:26.510]  All right.
[48:26.810 --> 48:27.050]  Hi.
[48:27.610 --> 48:28.010]  All right.
[48:28.130 --> 48:34.870]  I just want to say that guy, the Times Square Fizzler, has got to be the biggest patsy in the world.
[48:35.270 --> 48:39.130]  I mean, it's got to be more obvious than anything in the world.
[48:40.210 --> 48:41.430]  I like that nickname.
[48:41.570 --> 48:42.390]  I really hope it sticks.
[48:42.510 --> 48:43.490]  The Times Square Fizzler.
[48:44.330 --> 48:45.350]  The guy's an idiot.
[48:45.550 --> 48:50.570]  I mean, he could have been out in the country on Saturday night if he had a brain inside.
[48:51.890 --> 48:52.290]  Yeah.
[48:52.550 --> 48:58.030]  They might have known who he was pretty quickly and just waited until he was on the plane.
[48:58.230 --> 48:58.830]  I'm sure.
[48:58.970 --> 48:59.330]  I'm sure.
[48:59.470 --> 49:03.150]  But the guy, he could not be a real, he can't be a real bomber.
[49:03.290 --> 49:06.370]  He's got to be the biggest cutout in the world and just the biggest idiot in the world.
[49:07.090 --> 49:09.910]  It strikes me sometimes how absurd the whole thing is.
[49:09.950 --> 49:18.650]  Yeah, you have this guy doing incredibly stupid things, and then people in all seriousness are saying, you know, this might have been a retaliation for that South Park episode that went on a few weeks ago.
[49:19.250 --> 49:21.950]  I mean, really, when did the world get so silly?
[49:22.490 --> 49:22.730]  Yeah.
[49:23.050 --> 49:23.910]  It's been a long time.
[49:24.030 --> 49:26.010]  I think also you give the FBI a lot of credit.
[49:26.190 --> 49:27.670]  They're like, they're not that bright either.
[49:27.870 --> 49:33.350]  So it's possible they didn't figure it out until quickly before he left.
[49:33.910 --> 49:36.470]  But let's see what caller number four has to say.
[49:36.990 --> 49:37.350]  Hello?
[49:38.890 --> 49:39.290]  Hi.
[49:39.810 --> 49:41.570]  Oh, I've got a couple different things.
[49:42.110 --> 49:50.770]  First of all, all the people who are blowing up, you know, things, they're charged with this, you know, new charge, you know, using a weapon of mass destruction.
[49:51.410 --> 49:56.550]  You know, this car in Times Square with, you know, some fuel in it is not a weapon of mass destruction.
[49:56.770 --> 50:00.470]  You know, a weapon of mass destruction is something that, like, blows up an entire city.
[50:00.470 --> 50:01.810]  That's mass destruction.
[50:02.190 --> 50:08.610]  So it's like another conflated, you know, stupid federal charge they put on everybody just to, like, inflate the penalties.
[50:08.610 --> 50:09.490]  You know, it's ridiculous.
[50:10.210 --> 50:19.050]  And then also today I was walking by and seeing a DEP person install a new water meter communication device.
[50:19.050 --> 50:22.650]  So they're putting them all around the city and every single household eventually.
[50:23.070 --> 50:26.830]  There are these little gray boxes kind of they put out in front of the house, kind of the basement level.
[50:26.830 --> 50:30.570]  And it's a wireless communication device, he explained.
[50:30.790 --> 50:48.590]  And they kind of phone in, not telecommunication, not like a cell phone, but, you know, another wireless frequency from the FCC to, like, local aggregator antennas in the neighborhood that then communicate over, you know, wired networks or however to,
[50:48.590 --> 50:50.230]  you know, central computers in the city.
[50:50.650 --> 50:57.210]  So your water meter is now, you know, or they're going to be eventually communicating wirelessly with the city.
[50:57.550 --> 51:00.330]  And they put in, like, a 20-year battery in these little boxes.
[51:00.370 --> 51:03.110]  So it's, you know, it's all kind of self-contained.
[51:03.230 --> 51:04.850]  And this is to track the usage?
[51:05.210 --> 51:06.190]  Yeah, your water meter.
[51:06.290 --> 51:08.490]  Instead of them having to come to your house and read the water meter.
[51:08.670 --> 51:08.810]  Right.
[51:09.330 --> 51:14.590]  Or instead, like, often what they do now is they have, like, a little wireless device.
[51:14.590 --> 51:22.830]  Not wireless, but kind of like a RFID kind of thing in front of the house, a little black disc kind of thing that they just kind of tap with the reader.
[51:22.990 --> 51:26.030]  But this is, like, totally wireless, you know, automated system.
[51:26.330 --> 51:29.390]  They are so asking to have their meter system cracked.
[51:29.590 --> 51:30.710]  That's all I have to say.
[51:31.490 --> 51:38.370]  Well, Ken, is the water department going with being able to shut people's water off remotely using this technology?
[51:38.910 --> 51:44.670]  That would certainly save them a lot of hassle as far as running out to people's houses and turning a valve.
[51:44.870 --> 51:48.270]  Yeah, I really don't think that it's hooked up to the street valve.
[51:48.470 --> 51:57.050]  My understanding for a long time is that the New York City water people, whatever they're called, had no way whatsoever of knowing who used how much water.
[51:57.190 --> 52:00.670]  So I guess they're jumping straight into the wireless age.
[52:00.810 --> 52:01.470]  No, no, no.
[52:01.750 --> 52:02.870]  That's not correct at all.
[52:03.010 --> 52:07.310]  They've had water meters in everybody's, you know, building for years and years and years and years and years.
[52:07.690 --> 52:08.030]  Oh.
[52:08.630 --> 52:11.150]  Yeah, no, you get a water bill based on your actual usage.
[52:12.150 --> 52:13.450]  And that's been the case, you know.
[52:13.530 --> 52:16.030]  I don't know, maybe 15 years at least, God.
[52:17.530 --> 52:18.450]  Well, thank you.
[52:18.470 --> 52:18.670]  All right.
[52:18.870 --> 52:19.070]  Thanks.
[52:19.270 --> 52:19.530]  Thank you.
[52:19.610 --> 52:19.730]  Bye.
[52:21.630 --> 52:23.790]  Let's go over here.
[52:23.790 --> 52:24.230]  Hi.
[52:25.050 --> 52:25.530]  Hello.
[52:25.730 --> 52:25.930]  Hi.
[52:26.050 --> 52:26.610]  You're on the air.
[52:28.230 --> 52:28.710]  Hello.
[52:29.070 --> 52:29.310]  Oh.
[52:29.750 --> 52:30.230]  Hi.
[52:30.570 --> 52:30.930]  Hi.
[52:31.110 --> 52:34.110]  I just wanted to comment.
[52:34.350 --> 52:41.190]  I just picked up on the caller that spoke about the DEP, the Water Commission.
[52:41.830 --> 52:50.870]  I mean, I have a house in the Bronx, in the South, well, in some definitions would be called the South Bronx.
[52:51.470 --> 52:54.590]  And the house had a fire in 2005.
[52:55.790 --> 52:57.750]  No one was living there for five years.
[52:58.710 --> 53:08.750]  The DEP was sending water bills to the old owner, who hadn't owned the house since 2004, for five years.
[53:08.950 --> 53:34.050]  And then finally got a bill in my name, not that you owe us money or we changed the account and what's up, is that you have 90 days to pay $1,500 or, one, we're putting a lien on your property and we are going to send it to a collection agency and they're going to charge you 18% and another bunch of fees for your water that hasn't been on in the building for five,
[53:34.090 --> 53:36.290]  well, it hasn't been used in the building for five years.
[53:36.890 --> 53:49.090]  And then, so what happened was that there was a water break and they had to, I couldn't shut it off in the house, they came and shut it off in the street, $500.
[53:49.650 --> 53:59.570]  So they said, either you give us $2,000 and we're putting a lien on your property and we are going to send it to a collection agency if you don't have it in by May 5th.
[53:59.570 --> 54:00.510]  All right.
[54:00.770 --> 54:09.790]  Well, I mean, I just, I mean, sorry to hear that, but it's not really what we were talking about tonight, so I think we're going to move on to another caller that maybe hasn't come.
[54:09.850 --> 54:11.410]  Such a popular topic.
[54:11.690 --> 54:11.870]  Yeah.
[54:12.070 --> 54:12.930]  People like water.
[54:13.170 --> 54:13.670]  It's important.
[54:15.150 --> 54:15.570]  Hello.
[54:15.830 --> 54:18.290]  We have just a little while left, but what's on your mind?
[54:19.510 --> 54:20.130]  Hello there.
[54:20.290 --> 54:20.530]  Hi.
[54:29.570 --> 54:30.130]  Yeah, that'll be it.
[54:30.290 --> 54:32.330]  Let's try, uh, hello?
[54:33.010 --> 54:36.430]  Oh, yes, I'm flying over to the Shanghai World's Fair.
[54:36.610 --> 54:37.270]  Oh, are you?
[54:37.650 --> 54:38.670]  Uh, all right.
[54:39.250 --> 54:40.710]  There actually is a Shanghai World's Fair.
[54:40.710 --> 54:41.230]  Yeah, there is.
[54:41.350 --> 54:42.610]  It's supposed to be very big.
[54:42.730 --> 54:45.510]  It has this guy who looks like Gumby, not a guy, a character.
[54:46.070 --> 54:47.550]  It's very, it's a big deal.
[54:49.070 --> 54:50.850]  I have no idea what that's about, but okay.
[54:50.910 --> 54:52.830]  There's this mascot and he looks like Gumby.
[54:52.950 --> 54:55.270]  He's like a weird Chinese ripoff of Gumby.
[54:55.410 --> 54:55.870]  It's very strange.
[54:55.950 --> 54:58.330]  Can I remind people that there are 2,600 meetings this Friday?
[54:58.330 --> 54:59.110]  I don't know.
[54:59.170 --> 54:59.510]  Try it.
[55:00.010 --> 55:02.750]  Well, I'd like to remind people there are 2,600 meetings this Friday.
[55:03.290 --> 55:05.670]  And they are taking place all throughout the world.
[55:05.890 --> 55:11.210]  You can see if there's one near you by going to www.2600.com slash meetings.
[55:11.490 --> 55:16.730]  It's a great place to discuss the upcoming HOPE Conference, July 16th, 17th, and 18th.
[55:16.970 --> 55:24.050]  Another great place to discuss that is the HOPE Forums, talk.hope.net, or just go to our website at www.hope.net.
[55:24.110 --> 55:29.270]  And if you want to submit a talk, time is running out for you to submit a talk for the conference.
[55:30.070 --> 55:32.470]  Email speakers at hope.net.
[55:32.730 --> 55:38.370]  And of course, if you want to talk to anybody at the radio show, OTH at 2600.com.
[55:39.130 --> 55:39.330]  All right.
[55:39.410 --> 55:40.450]  I guess we'll see you next week.
[55:41.410 --> 55:44.870]  So I guess we'll see you next week, and our listeners should get their credit cards ready.
[55:45.590 --> 55:48.690]  Volcano willing, and the creek don't rise, I will be back next week.
[55:48.890 --> 55:49.370]  All right.
[55:49.370 --> 55:50.410]  See you next week, then.
[55:51.210 --> 55:51.490]  Good night.
[56:43.410 --> 56:53.650]  Little computer people Living in a digital world Can't you see them on the screen?
[56:54.710 --> 57:07.970]  You're the master, you're the key Little computer people Living in a digital world Can't you see them on the screen?
[57:08.870 --> 57:11.550]  You're the master, you're the key
[57:55.600 --> 58:02.060]  Little computer people, living in a digital world.
[58:02.980 --> 58:05.820]  Can't you see them on the screen.
[58:06.520 --> 58:09.300]  You're the master, you're the key.
[58:10.140 --> 58:16.410]  Little computer living in a digital world.
[58:17.410 --> 58:20.090]  Can't you see them on the screen.
[58:21.070 --> 58:23.710]  You're the master, you're the key.
[58:28.320 --> 58:34.560]  Living in a digital world, can't you see them on the screen?
[58:35.620 --> 58:38.140]  You're the master, you're the key.
[58:58.300 --> 59:03.840]  This is the professor, Dr. Ron Daniels, inviting you to attend a special Institute of the Black World Forum.