[00:00.000 --> 00:00.700]  Hello!
[00:01.800 --> 00:05.980]  WBAI is having a mini summer fun drive to raise money for the station and thing.
[00:06.140 --> 00:10.660]  And we need your help to answer some phone calls and take some pledges from your fellow listeners.
[00:10.960 --> 00:14.380]  Yeah man, that's how we make the money to keep everything working round here.
[00:14.540 --> 00:23.320]  So if you can make a bit of time to come on down to 120 Wall Street over the period August 3 to 21, me would so love that.
[00:23.580 --> 00:24.360]  But here what?
[00:24.680 --> 00:28.860]  You need to call ahead so we can put you in the building security system.
[00:28.860 --> 00:33.140]  The number, 212-209-2800.
[00:33.180 --> 00:40.900]  That's 212-209-2800 during regular business hours, Monday to Friday, 9 to 5.
[00:41.220 --> 00:44.320]  And make sure when you come, you bring some photo ID, you hear?
[00:44.800 --> 00:47.460]  Hey, let's grab some calls together.
[00:47.720 --> 00:49.260]  Shoot the breeze together.
[00:49.880 --> 00:51.340]  Volunteer together, man.
[00:51.340 --> 00:59.140]  Right here on WBAI, 99.5, 120 Wall Street, August 3 to 21, during the fun drive.
[00:59.880 --> 01:02.040]  And this is WBAI New York.
[01:02.560 --> 01:04.800]  It's time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:10.010 --> 01:11.950]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:12.410 --> 01:14.470]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:15.470 --> 01:17.470]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:18.010 --> 01:19.970]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:20.630 --> 01:22.830]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:25.580 --> 01:28.280]  Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[01:28.860 --> 01:30.800]  I hope that's understood.
[01:31.000 --> 01:31.780]  Bum-diddly-bum!
[02:27.460 --> 02:28.300]  And good evening to everybody.
[02:28.420 --> 02:29.140]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:29.200 --> 02:31.600]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:31.860 --> 02:33.280]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:33.500 --> 02:33.740]  Hi.
[02:33.880 --> 02:34.120]  Jim.
[02:34.540 --> 02:34.760]  Hello.
[02:35.060 --> 02:35.280]  Kyle.
[02:35.620 --> 02:35.820]  Hi.
[02:35.980 --> 02:36.300]  Rob T.
[02:36.420 --> 02:36.840]  Firefly.
[02:37.040 --> 02:37.340]  Good evening.
[02:37.840 --> 02:38.420]  Dot Rhett.
[02:38.580 --> 02:38.800]  Hello.
[02:39.040 --> 02:39.360]  Gus.
[02:39.660 --> 02:40.080]  Oh, hi.
[02:40.340 --> 02:41.240]  And Bernie S.
[02:41.280 --> 02:41.740]  down in Philadelphia.
[02:42.340 --> 02:43.480]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:44.720 --> 02:46.380]  Well, hey, the president's in town.
[02:46.460 --> 02:50.760]  We just looked out the window and his helicopter's sitting right outside the BAI studio is waiting to leave.
[02:51.200 --> 02:59.820]  But I figured this might be a good opportunity, since he will be driving right past the studios, to try and have a chat about the British hacker case.
[03:00.580 --> 03:04.340]  You know about the whole Gary McKinnon case.
[03:04.460 --> 03:09.040]  Do we have some staff, like, putting speakers on the outside of the building so he can hear us?
[03:09.040 --> 03:11.940]  Well, we sent Voltaire down there to stand in the FDR drive.
[03:12.060 --> 03:12.260]  Ah.
[03:13.440 --> 03:14.700]  That's not going to help anything.
[03:14.760 --> 03:15.960]  We'll knock him down in a second.
[03:16.320 --> 03:18.300]  A gust of wind would knock that child over.
[03:18.540 --> 03:19.800]  Oh, I thought you meant...
[03:19.800 --> 03:20.320]  No.
[03:20.540 --> 03:21.100]  I misinterpreted.
[03:21.100 --> 03:22.400]  No, Obama's nice and sturdy, but...
[03:22.400 --> 03:22.800]  Well, no.
[03:23.080 --> 03:26.820]  He can... he can... he can... well, I'm sure he'll figure out a way to do it.
[03:27.180 --> 03:31.140]  But the reason why we want to talk to Obama is because of the Gary McKinnon case.
[03:31.420 --> 03:40.320]  This is the hacker from England who allegedly hacked into military computers, searching for information on UFOs.
[03:40.820 --> 03:50.880]  And the government took a dim view of that, and they said that not only do we not have information on UFOs, but you erased some files that we really needed.
[03:51.760 --> 03:57.280]  And as a result of that, they've invited him to come and stand trial in the United States.
[03:57.440 --> 03:58.180]  He lives in the UK.
[03:58.260 --> 03:59.820]  I don't think he's ever been to the United States, has he?
[04:00.340 --> 04:04.020]  And if he's really lucky, get an all-expense-paid stay at a U.S.
[04:04.080 --> 04:04.280]  prison.
[04:04.440 --> 04:06.920]  Well, that's the hope of the government, yes.
[04:07.160 --> 04:07.740]  Of the U.S.
[04:07.920 --> 04:08.420]  The U.S.
[04:08.540 --> 04:08.660]  government.
[04:08.860 --> 04:12.100]  Now, the British government isn't all thrilled about that.
[04:12.220 --> 04:12.420]  The U.K.
[04:12.580 --> 04:16.760]  Home Office is reviewing whether Gary McKinnon's medical condition...
[04:16.760 --> 04:18.660]  He's been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.
[04:18.960 --> 04:21.200]  That's the latest thing lately in the hacker world, isn't it?
[04:21.320 --> 04:24.460]  That's what Adrian Lamo is supposedly diagnosed with as well.
[04:25.160 --> 04:30.820]  But in this particular case, whether that condition is grounds to block his extradition to the U.S.
[04:30.900 --> 04:33.080]  And that was approved way back in 2006.
[04:33.360 --> 04:37.560]  He's yet to stand trial in the U.S., where he was indicted by the U.S.
[04:37.820 --> 04:48.760]  District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia back in 2002 for hacking into 97 military and NASA computers between February of 2001 and March of 2002.
[04:48.760 --> 04:54.620]  The government also says this interfered with their investigation of 9-11, which happened right between those dates.
[04:55.040 --> 04:55.840]  Oh, please.
[04:56.080 --> 04:56.180]  Yeah.
[04:57.260 --> 04:59.040]  You seem a little cynical about that.
[04:59.140 --> 05:02.700]  Bernie, don't you want to know what they knew and when they knew it and all that kind of thing?
[05:02.820 --> 05:03.020]  No?
[05:03.160 --> 05:03.840]  Oh, please.
[05:04.080 --> 05:06.780]  How could it have interfered with the 9-1-1 investigation?
[05:06.780 --> 05:11.640]  And does that mean the government isn't even capable of keeping backups?
[05:11.900 --> 05:14.980]  Well, I mean, after seeing the whole latest WikiLeaks thing, I don't know.
[05:15.280 --> 05:17.900]  I think they're capable of a lot of silly things.
[05:18.080 --> 05:22.120]  9-11 was caused by a UFO as a conspiracy theory I don't think I've heard before.
[05:22.120 --> 05:23.600]  So maybe there's something to it.
[05:23.720 --> 05:26.940]  Actually, I have heard that before, but I don't think that's what this is about.
[05:26.960 --> 05:27.640]  Don't say that on the air, Mike.
[05:27.640 --> 05:27.960]  I'm sorry.
[05:27.960 --> 05:30.100]  You know the kind of calls we're going to get later if you do that.
[05:30.320 --> 05:31.040]  Wait, hold on.
[05:31.860 --> 05:33.100]  97 million computers?
[05:33.340 --> 05:35.640]  No, 97 military computers.
[05:35.640 --> 05:36.740]  Okay, just...
[05:36.740 --> 05:38.280]  Oh, 9,000 computers?
[05:38.300 --> 05:39.980]  This isn't Kevin Mitnick we're talking about.
[05:40.060 --> 05:41.020]  Here's Gary McKinnon.
[05:41.560 --> 05:44.000]  But yeah, 97 military and NASA computers.
[05:44.160 --> 05:44.920]  It's not that much.
[05:45.080 --> 05:45.760]  I agree.
[05:45.960 --> 05:46.680]  No, 97's not that much.
[05:47.060 --> 05:52.500]  But yeah, so basically UK Home Office is trying to block his extradition to the US.
[05:52.600 --> 06:02.680]  Now, the reason why Obama is of interest to us, he said recently that he can't intervene in the long-running case of a British hacker charged with breaking into US military computers.
[06:02.680 --> 06:08.840]  He said he can't intervene because he doesn't really say why.
[06:08.960 --> 06:10.020]  He just said he can't do it.
[06:10.440 --> 06:18.940]  I trust this will get resolved in a way that underscores the seriousness of the issue, but also underscores the fact that we work together and we can find an appropriate solution.
[06:20.360 --> 06:22.260]  Underscore used twice in the same sentence.
[06:22.260 --> 06:22.880]  That's impressive.
[06:23.020 --> 06:24.660]  But other than that, it doesn't really say anything.
[06:25.400 --> 06:31.820]  Yeah, you know, how many crimes can we get a trip to another country for committing here on our home soil?
[06:31.940 --> 06:32.920]  I'd just like to know that.
[06:33.100 --> 06:39.580]  If I hack into a British computer, do I get ferried over there to stand trial in front of one of the people with big wigs?
[06:39.720 --> 06:48.300]  Well, one of the interesting things about this case is that the specific extradition treaty that was in play here is actually not bilateral.
[06:48.300 --> 06:52.240]  It only allows for people to come from the UK to the US and not the other way around.
[06:52.240 --> 06:58.040]  There are other treaties, of course, but this one's kind of a weird one and people in the UK are upset about it.
[06:58.180 --> 07:02.620]  I don't know why anybody would agree to a treaty like that if they were in a different country.
[07:03.220 --> 07:08.880]  Our citizens can be sent to your country for prosecution, but if your citizens commit crimes against us, they can't.
[07:08.880 --> 07:10.040]  Was it maybe part of some deal?
[07:10.600 --> 07:11.640]  Well, it must have been.
[07:11.700 --> 07:13.220]  It must have been one heck of a deal.
[07:13.240 --> 07:15.800]  You give me this, I give you that, and we just don't know the whole deal.
[07:15.800 --> 07:17.140]  Yeah, because we always complain.
[07:17.440 --> 07:21.400]  We scream bloody murder when anybody says, you know, please send your citizens to us.
[07:22.240 --> 07:22.760]  We won't do that.
[07:23.040 --> 07:23.560]  Emanuel?
[07:23.800 --> 07:24.180]  Yes, go ahead.
[07:25.120 --> 07:35.360]  It's interesting that this Gary McKinnon case became a UK campaign issue several months ago when the UK was having its national election.
[07:37.120 --> 07:47.520]  I forget the winning candidate, but apparently he made claims that he would do everything in his power to ensure that Gary McKinnon was not extradited to the US because this has become such a huge...
[07:47.520 --> 07:51.960]  We may not have been that familiar with it here in this country, but it was a huge issue in that country.
[07:52.080 --> 08:08.140]  Like major public officials and celebrities and rock bands, major rock bands, all kinds of people there were rallying for Gary McKinnon's support because this is really an outrageous extradition request.
[08:08.140 --> 08:09.420]  He didn't harm anybody.
[08:09.680 --> 08:13.420]  And they're looking at locking him up for the rest of his life in a US prison.
[08:14.360 --> 08:18.740]  Now, was it David Cameron who said that, the current prime minister, because he won the election?
[08:18.900 --> 08:19.220]  He's won...
[08:19.220 --> 08:19.520]  Yeah, yeah.
[08:19.920 --> 08:20.460]  Yeah, yeah.
[08:20.620 --> 08:23.200]  And now they're back... now he's backing off.
[08:23.320 --> 08:25.080]  He's backing off of that campaign promise.
[08:25.080 --> 08:31.400]  And he's like, well, you know, I'm sure the UK and the US will work it out or something along those lines.
[08:31.560 --> 08:33.700]  So it's really disgusting.
[08:33.740 --> 08:35.600]  Is David Cameron coming down the FDR drive too?
[08:35.620 --> 08:36.300]  Is it just Obama?
[08:36.660 --> 08:37.200]  Is he in town?
[08:37.360 --> 08:38.280]  I haven't been notified.
[08:38.540 --> 08:38.820]  All right.
[08:40.060 --> 08:41.440]  We'll have a call to Voltaire.
[08:41.540 --> 08:45.440]  Hopefully, if he sees a British prime minister heading down at 55 miles an hour, he'll stop him as well.
[08:46.180 --> 08:46.580]  Okay.
[08:46.860 --> 08:49.480]  So that's the latest on that.
[08:49.660 --> 08:50.320]  Interesting story.
[08:50.500 --> 08:51.040]  Interesting story.
[08:51.220 --> 08:51.940]  And it continues.
[08:52.060 --> 08:53.500]  It's been going on since 2002.
[08:54.540 --> 08:54.940]  Incredible.
[08:55.320 --> 09:03.140]  And can you imagine having that over your head, thinking that you might be sent to a foreign country to serve in their prison, their prison system?
[09:03.480 --> 09:04.280]  It's really...
[09:04.280 --> 09:05.140]  That's because you're curious.
[09:05.140 --> 09:10.620]  It's because you take advantage of some bad security to find some answers to...
[09:10.620 --> 09:15.700]  I can't imagine them keeping information about UFOs on their computer systems, but...
[09:15.700 --> 09:17.540]  Yeah, they keep that on paper files.
[09:17.680 --> 09:18.300]  Everyone knows that.
[09:18.480 --> 09:18.860]  All right.
[09:18.860 --> 09:19.640]  Stop it, Mike.
[09:19.640 --> 09:27.620]  Who has gotten to the 50,000 point of the leaked documents from WikiLeaks over the last...
[09:27.620 --> 09:28.100]  I haven't.
[09:28.200 --> 09:28.640]  Have you?
[09:28.780 --> 09:28.800]  No?
[09:29.020 --> 09:30.980]  Because maybe there's something about UFOs in there.
[09:31.140 --> 09:32.340]  There's 90,000.
[09:32.340 --> 09:34.700]  Yeah, but I'm saying, who got to the 50,000 mark?
[09:34.860 --> 09:35.240]  Oh, you're saying?
[09:35.240 --> 09:36.580]  I'm sure you're not at 90,000 yet.
[09:36.760 --> 09:38.060]  Well, I downloaded 90,000.
[09:38.120 --> 09:38.380]  All right.
[09:38.460 --> 09:39.300]  But how many have you read?
[09:39.540 --> 09:40.140]  One or two.
[09:40.680 --> 09:41.000]  Thousand.
[09:41.220 --> 09:41.480]  No.
[09:42.640 --> 09:44.100]  Mike, they're only a page each.
[09:44.200 --> 09:44.560]  I mean, come on.
[09:44.600 --> 09:45.340]  How hard is this?
[09:45.740 --> 09:46.580]  How many have you read?
[09:47.060 --> 09:47.800]  That's not the point.
[09:47.900 --> 09:48.200]  I'm the one asking...
[09:48.200 --> 09:48.660]  It is the point.
[09:49.100 --> 09:50.220]  I'm asking the questions.
[09:50.540 --> 09:51.480]  If we search...
[09:51.480 --> 09:57.180]  Can we search them for the word UFO, for the initials UFO, for unidentified, for object or something?
[09:57.180 --> 09:59.560]  Maybe our listeners can do it right now and call us later in the hour.
[09:59.640 --> 10:04.580]  Could you please, yeah, please do that because I'd like to scan these documents for things about the...
[10:04.580 --> 10:07.740]  Well, then again, these are Department of Defense, military.
[10:07.880 --> 10:12.560]  But then again, in the science fiction movies, it always is the Department of Defense that meets the aliens from the UFOs.
[10:12.580 --> 10:14.580]  Yeah, but the UFOs are in New Mexico.
[10:14.820 --> 10:16.160]  These are reports from Afghanistan.
[10:16.240 --> 10:17.160]  They're a world apart.
[10:17.340 --> 10:18.680]  Yeah, but the climate is similar.
[10:18.680 --> 10:19.800]  So they do the training.
[10:19.820 --> 10:20.400]  They do the training.
[10:20.400 --> 10:22.460]  I've seen very sketchy photos from Afghanistan, too.
[10:22.880 --> 10:23.320]  Yeah.
[10:23.880 --> 10:25.580]  They don't just all come to America, supposedly.
[10:25.660 --> 10:27.840]  So what do you guys think of the leaks?
[10:28.880 --> 10:30.320]  We knew leaks were coming.
[10:30.460 --> 10:31.760]  We know leaks are always coming.
[10:31.940 --> 10:37.940]  Not necessarily sure if these are the same leaks that were referred to in the previous WikiLeaks controversy.
[10:38.320 --> 10:39.260]  Should we explain?
[10:39.620 --> 10:40.060]  Yeah.
[10:40.160 --> 10:41.140]  Why don't you explain?
[10:41.940 --> 11:04.860]  So last Sunday, the New York Times, the Guardian, which is a British paper, and the Spiegel, which is a German weekly magazine, announced that WikiLeaks had given them, given the three of them, 90,000 reports, incident reports from Afghanistan, which had been leaked to WikiLeaks and then shared with these newspapers.
[11:05.080 --> 11:08.980]  And then WikiLeaks then released them to the rest of the world on their website.
[11:08.980 --> 11:12.480]  So there's been all kinds of analysis about what's in them.
[11:13.700 --> 11:16.680]  There's an assassination squad that was revealed.
[11:16.900 --> 11:24.920]  There's been cooperation between the Pakistani government, which is supposed to be on the same side as the U.S.
[11:25.020 --> 11:29.900]  government, but they're cooperating with the Taliban, which is supposed to be on the opposite side of the U.S.
[11:29.940 --> 11:30.200]  government.
[11:30.360 --> 11:32.000]  So there's some interesting stuff in there.
[11:32.200 --> 11:34.400]  And our government is sending money to the Pakistani government.
[11:34.400 --> 11:36.140]  And so, in effect, we're sending money to the Taliban.
[11:36.860 --> 11:37.340]  Yes.
[11:37.700 --> 11:38.800]  It's very...
[11:39.980 --> 11:48.560]  There's not necessarily any big shocker in there, but just sort of the depth of what's going on is kind of amazing.
[11:48.780 --> 11:57.120]  Well, it's kind of shocking how much they want to cover up and keep quiet, such as the true number of civilian deaths and things like that.
[11:58.080 --> 12:03.620]  And also just the extent with which the story is hitting the media and how everybody is reacting to it.
[12:03.620 --> 12:06.600]  What do you think the reaction of the public is, for the most part?
[12:07.920 --> 12:08.620]  That's the thing.
[12:08.720 --> 12:13.840]  This whole time, Julian and various other people speaking for WikiLeaks have said, this is going to change the public's mind.
[12:14.360 --> 12:18.980]  And you hear, on the other hand, people who've read this saying, this is nothing new.
[12:19.140 --> 12:26.260]  I mean, like, there was a book written about how Pakistan's security or, I guess, spy organization is, you know, materially supporting the Taliban.
[12:27.320 --> 12:29.320]  So these things are not surprising.
[12:29.320 --> 12:38.740]  And, you know, if it wasn't for this leak, I don't know that the New York Times would necessarily even see it as newsworthy, per se, because they want things that are, you know, obviously, if it bleeds, it leads.
[12:38.960 --> 12:41.280]  If it bleeds with specific people, not with...
[12:41.280 --> 12:42.600]  If it bleeds, it leads.
[12:42.680 --> 12:43.440]  Where did you get that from?
[12:43.520 --> 12:44.620]  That's a phrase in the media.
[12:44.720 --> 12:47.180]  Old common phrase for what you say about the news.
[12:47.300 --> 12:49.820]  Basically, bad news is what gets people's attention.
[12:49.820 --> 13:02.060]  Yeah, so there's that, and then, you know, the sort of, you know, the sort of ongoing repetitiveness of these kinds of stories that these leaks are revealing are not things that I think you could really hang a news hook on.
[13:02.160 --> 13:05.180]  Like, I think if I took this to an editor, they'd go, where's the story?
[13:06.040 --> 13:13.700]  So it's, I don't know, it's a little bit odd that at the same time that WikiLeaks is promoting this, like, it's going to be, you know, tremendously war-ending somehow.
[13:14.400 --> 13:23.300]  There's this sort of interesting thing that the White House in particular is saying, which is they're saying simultaneously that there's nothing really in these documents that you wouldn't already know.
[13:23.420 --> 13:28.080]  And they're saying that the release of these documents is a grave threat to national security and WikiLeaks shouldn't have done it.
[13:28.460 --> 13:30.420]  And I don't really see how they can have it both ways.
[13:30.580 --> 13:30.820]  Which is it?
[13:31.120 --> 13:31.320]  Yeah.
[13:31.620 --> 13:37.820]  I ask the same question because that's what the Obama administration keeps saying, that there's nothing new here.
[13:37.960 --> 13:41.240]  And yet, if you look at it, the investigation, what's the investigation?
[13:41.440 --> 13:43.160]  Into misconduct, into possible war crimes?
[13:43.160 --> 13:45.220]  No, the investigation is, who leaked this?
[13:47.100 --> 13:48.260]  Leaking is a healthy thing.
[13:48.340 --> 13:50.440]  That's just my opinion on that.
[13:50.500 --> 13:51.520]  And I think a lot of people share that.
[13:51.720 --> 14:06.380]  I think this particular leak is remarkable for sort of being the first big leak that's happening while WikiLeaks is really known in the mainstream versus when it was like some, you know, when it was starting and when it wasn't as well-known.
[14:06.400 --> 14:12.080]  Because now your average person on the street knows what WikiLeaks, they know the name, they might know, they might have some idea of what it's about.
[14:12.080 --> 14:16.300]  But now I think they're out there.
[14:16.380 --> 14:19.260]  They have the White House making, you know, statements about the stuff they're releasing.
[14:19.400 --> 14:21.500]  They're in all the major media outlets now.
[14:21.860 --> 14:23.080]  It's sort of a big step for them.
[14:23.180 --> 14:24.300]  Yeah, I think that's very true.
[14:24.840 --> 14:31.880]  Actually, where I found out about this was off of a news ticker in Times Square, not off of some web news that I go through myself.
[14:31.960 --> 14:33.360]  You're the guy who reads those tickers, huh?
[14:33.480 --> 14:36.480]  I was walking by and they, you know, it's flashy.
[14:37.400 --> 14:45.040]  But, you know, I do also think it's sad that this kind of news that they're trying to put out there, everyone does just think, oh, what's new about this?
[14:45.040 --> 14:50.160]  Though everyone also, most people also say this is bad, but why don't people do anything then?
[14:50.320 --> 14:57.340]  I think it's important that this is repeated because it substantiates it in the consciousness of the masses, of the public and everybody.
[14:57.340 --> 15:01.900]  And I think this time, with like what Mike said, it's front and center.
[15:02.080 --> 15:11.940]  And with what you were saying, I think that, .ret, excuse me, it's reiterated right up front and center.
[15:12.060 --> 15:12.580]  It's everywhere.
[15:12.700 --> 15:13.920]  It's on every radio station.
[15:14.100 --> 15:16.720]  It's out there in a huge, major way.
[15:16.940 --> 15:23.240]  And yeah, it may be repeated, but it's not as diffuse in like small sort of niche forms of media.
[15:23.240 --> 15:30.080]  Now it's like these three papers, like doing this assault, like basically throwing it right out there in addition to the leak.
[15:30.200 --> 15:31.960]  So I think that really gives a lot of power.
[15:32.160 --> 15:39.220]  Now, it's interesting because those three papers had 92,000 individual reports for several weeks.
[15:39.220 --> 15:42.900]  And they agreed not to release it until after the HOP conference was over.
[15:43.740 --> 15:44.740]  Well, it's true.
[15:45.600 --> 15:49.040]  Maybe that's not in the words that they use, but they did wait a week.
[15:49.040 --> 15:57.940]  Um, and, um, basically the New York Times printed a little piece in, um, in its, um, edition on its webpage too, I believe.
[15:58.320 --> 16:01.140]  Uh, deciding whether to publish secret information is always difficult.
[16:01.140 --> 16:05.900]  After weighing the risks and public interest, we sometimes chose not to publish.
[16:06.040 --> 16:09.040]  But there are times when the information is of significant public interest.
[16:09.200 --> 16:10.440]  And this is one of those times.
[16:10.460 --> 16:17.200]  The documents illuminate the extraordinary difficulty of what the United States and its allies have undertaken in a way that other accounts have not.
[16:17.200 --> 16:25.240]  Most of the incident reports are marked secret, a relatively low level of classification, which is kind of hard to believe, but secret, yeah, is relatively low level.
[16:25.400 --> 16:30.120]  Uh, the Times has taken care not to publish information that would harm national security interests.
[16:30.580 --> 16:43.000]  The Times and other news organizations agreed at the outset that we would not disclose, either in our articles or any of our online supplementary material, anything that was likely to put lives at risk or jeopardize military or anti-terrorist operations.
[16:43.000 --> 16:48.040]  We have, for example, withheld any names of operatives in the field and informants cited in the reports.
[16:48.220 --> 16:53.600]  We have avoided anything that might compromise American or allied intelligence gathering methods, such as communications intercepts.
[16:53.700 --> 16:55.740]  We have not linked to the archives of raw material.
[16:55.920 --> 17:02.200]  At the request of the White House, the Times also urged WikiLeaks to withhold any harmful materials from its website.
[17:02.300 --> 17:02.680]  So that's interesting.
[17:02.740 --> 17:09.000]  The White House urged the New York Times to urge WikiLeaks not to, uh, uh, have harmful material on its website.
[17:09.000 --> 17:10.160]  The question is, did they?
[17:10.240 --> 17:14.380]  Did they have, uh, this information that the Times did not link to and did not publish?
[17:14.380 --> 17:16.420]  Is that just available anyway on WikiLeaks?
[17:16.480 --> 17:17.000]  Does anybody know?
[17:17.160 --> 17:17.500]  Well, the U.S.
[17:17.580 --> 17:19.420]  government apparently can't get Julian's phone number.
[17:19.980 --> 17:23.600]  Well, you know, it's hard to believe that they can't find the guy.
[17:23.700 --> 17:26.080]  He's making public appearances overseas.
[17:26.080 --> 17:30.000]  And I'm sure the United States knows how to get to those, uh, public appearances overseas.
[17:30.660 --> 17:38.980]  Uh, true, he has not come into this country for obvious reasons, but, uh, I'm sure they could, they could find him very easily if they really, really wanted to.
[17:39.120 --> 17:41.920]  But then again, you know, they're having trouble finding a lot of people they want to talk to.
[17:41.920 --> 17:44.300]  Well, he also won't talk to them, even if they do find him.
[17:44.440 --> 17:45.840]  So it won't accomplish a whole lot.
[17:46.000 --> 17:47.900]  It doesn't stop them, though, from, from, from, from trying.
[17:47.900 --> 17:56.820]  But I think in a way they kind of, I don't know if they, if they like this kind of attention or, um, or, or, or like to target somebody as the bad guy.
[17:57.660 --> 17:58.580]  Um, I don't know.
[17:58.680 --> 17:59.680]  I'm, I'm not sure what they're thinking.
[17:59.760 --> 17:59.880]  Rob?
[18:00.080 --> 18:05.040]  They, they did, uh, WikiLeaks did post a phone number to Twitter for, uh, contacts for media interviews and things.
[18:05.120 --> 18:06.760]  I think, I think it was a British phone number.
[18:07.760 --> 18:08.720]  Okay, Bernie, go ahead.
[18:09.300 --> 18:10.540]  Yeah, I think it's interesting.
[18:10.540 --> 18:23.800]  This is the first time I'm aware of where, uh, uh, President Obama himself, uh, publicly, um, uh, discussed WikiLeaks, uh, uh, published materials, uh, the leaked materials.
[18:23.940 --> 18:29.120]  He, uh, President Obama, uh, personally, uh, and publicly downplayed their significance.
[18:29.120 --> 18:30.040]  I mean, what's he gonna do?
[18:30.140 --> 18:33.100]  Say, this is really important because then people are gonna look at it more.
[18:33.480 --> 18:40.280]  He downplayed it, but as you can put it out, uh, also the White House is saying on the other side, uh, that, uh, you know, this is, uh, this is, uh, this is damaging.
[18:40.280 --> 18:41.320]  to national security.
[18:41.520 --> 18:49.180]  What I think is almost even more interesting is how WikiLeaks handled this particular release of so many thousands of documents.
[18:49.360 --> 19:07.560]  They released them apparently with some sort of agreement to major newspapers around the world, the New York Times, Der Spiegel, and the UK's Guardian newspapers, and said that you've got to sit on this until we release them.
[19:07.680 --> 19:10.120]  But I think it was clever in the way WikiLeaks did this.
[19:10.280 --> 19:23.080]  And allowing these newspapers to vet the material first so that it would make for a bigger impact and a more reputable story when WikiLeaks actually released the information.
[19:23.400 --> 19:40.000]  And I also think it's significant that the New York Times actually went to the White House first to discuss the release of these documents, saying that they were going to do that, just like they did back a few years ago about the NSA wiretapping, the warrantless wiretapping of millions of American citizens.
[19:40.000 --> 19:42.400]  They went to the White House first and said, hey, we have this.
[19:42.500 --> 19:44.140]  And they sat on it until after the election.
[19:45.520 --> 19:54.380]  It's really interesting to see how these major media outlets are working with the White House in how they're going to release information or not at all.
[19:55.100 --> 20:00.180]  I think it's interesting, actually, to compare what the White House did with what the Guardian did.
[20:00.860 --> 20:07.260]  The Guardian published in its newspaper the fact that they knew the White House was talking to the New York Times.
[20:07.540 --> 20:11.960]  But they were like, yeah, what the White House said, we already knew what they were going to say.
[20:12.060 --> 20:13.200]  We can just do it all by ourselves.
[20:13.200 --> 20:15.020]  We don't have to call the White House for instructions.
[20:15.020 --> 20:18.100]  But the New York Times apparently feels the need to.
[20:18.840 --> 20:19.220]  Interesting.
[20:19.500 --> 20:30.220]  I'm looking at one of the many documents that were released and how some information was kind of confirmed that had been suspected in the past.
[20:30.920 --> 20:41.020]  According to this story, which appeared in the Christian Science Monitor, the WikiLeaks stories confirmed that there was a plan to kill an American geologist with poison beer.
[20:41.020 --> 20:52.840]  Yeah, an attempt was made to poison a key American advisor involved in the bidding for a multi-billion dollar mining contract in Afghanistan by replacing beer in a bottle with sulfuric acid.
[20:52.860 --> 20:53.940]  You think that's funny, Rob T.
[20:54.040 --> 20:54.340]  Firefly?
[20:55.060 --> 20:56.300]  I think that's hilarious.
[20:56.660 --> 20:59.500]  Yeah, I don't know what... it's not that funny.
[20:59.740 --> 21:13.260]  The little reported incident occurred in June 2007, but takes on new interest with the publication by the WikiLeaks website of an intelligence warning in February 2007 that Pakistan's ISI spy agency was planning to poison soldiers' alcoholic drinks.
[21:13.460 --> 21:22.860]  James Yeager, an American geologist who advised Afghanistan's Ministry of Mines, tells the Monitor he returned to his residence in Kabul to find it had been burgled.
[21:23.060 --> 21:26.900]  The intruder took money from a drawer and left behind a bottle of Corona beer.
[21:27.240 --> 21:29.420]  The Corona bottle... I'm not kidding.
[21:29.520 --> 21:35.340]  The Corona bottle sat on his counter for the next two weeks, Yeager says, because Corona is one of his least favorite beers.
[21:37.020 --> 21:41.600]  He finally opened it during a going-away party as the other drinks began to run low.
[21:41.840 --> 21:43.740]  There were many other drinks there, apparently.
[21:43.980 --> 21:48.440]  I pulled it out, and when I popped it, there was no fizz, and the cap was loose.
[21:49.180 --> 21:52.960]  Because this one didn't have fizz, you wonder if it went rancid or not.
[21:53.140 --> 21:56.440]  And I just kind of sniffed it and said, oh, that doesn't smell like beer.
[21:57.120 --> 22:03.140]  Yeager, a geochemist familiar with acids, realized it smelled like sulfuric acid, otherwise known as battery acid.
[22:03.140 --> 22:06.240]  He called a friend who had the same reaction to the smell.
[22:06.840 --> 22:16.660]  Yeager poured the, quote-unquote, beer into the toilet, and it phoned and fizzed, fizzed, leaving no question in his mind that it was sulfuric acid.
[22:16.860 --> 22:18.320]  Of course, he didn't really test it, did he?
[22:18.320 --> 22:18.980]  He just flushed it.
[22:19.480 --> 22:40.260]  So among the 90,000 documents made public by WikiLeaks, in an intelligence report claiming that Pakistan's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, ISI, and insurgents were plotting a similar type of tampering, a local authority reported that ISI and insurgents are going to buy alcoholic drinks from markets in order to mix them with poison and use them for poisoning Afghan international
[22:40.260 --> 22:43.060]  troops, reads the report in the WikiLeaks trove.
[22:43.360 --> 22:51.700]  So, yeah, you know, sometimes it illustrates partial stories that were heard in the past when these leaks are made public.
[22:51.700 --> 22:55.200]  And in this particular case, it might be some valuable information.
[22:55.440 --> 22:56.660]  And this guy was a real threat.
[22:56.660 --> 23:00.080]  He was making a bid for a multi-billion dollar mining contract.
[23:00.360 --> 23:01.900]  So, yeah, war on terror indeed.
[23:02.980 --> 23:08.620]  I want to be... like, we're being awfully nice to these geologists because, like, most of the geologists I know are pretty nice people.
[23:08.760 --> 23:15.920]  But these are the guys who, like, go into foreign lands and plot how to steal their resources without giving any money to the local people.
[23:16.420 --> 23:16.820]  Like...
[23:16.820 --> 23:17.780]  It doesn't mean you poison them.
[23:17.780 --> 23:19.020]  It doesn't mean you poison them.
[23:19.360 --> 23:20.980]  And a corona on top of that.
[23:21.120 --> 23:22.060]  I mean, you know, come on.
[23:22.080 --> 23:22.880]  To add insult to injury.
[23:22.880 --> 23:27.360]  They have enough problems, as it is, without the sulfuric acid being poured into their beers.
[23:28.320 --> 23:29.100]  But, yeah, okay.
[23:29.560 --> 23:30.440]  Yeah, I want to be clear.
[23:30.440 --> 23:32.240]  I don't think poisoning is the right remedy here.
[23:32.300 --> 23:34.100]  But let's not be too nice.
[23:34.740 --> 23:35.100]  Okay.
[23:35.740 --> 23:38.300]  So, what do you think is going to happen next with this whole WikiLeaks thing?
[23:38.900 --> 23:40.440]  Julian says he's going to release more.
[23:40.640 --> 23:41.800]  Here's the thing that bothers me.
[23:42.380 --> 23:46.180]  It's being reported as Julian doing this and not as the organization doing this.
[23:46.360 --> 23:50.020]  And as we learned at Hope, WikiLeaks is a lot bigger than just Julian.
[23:50.220 --> 23:52.420]  There are people all over the world that are a part of it.
[23:53.180 --> 23:59.580]  And if it's seen as one person being the person releasing documents or one person being the threat against the U.S.
[23:59.860 --> 24:06.260]  policy, it's a lot easier to deal with one person than it is an organization of thousands or more.
[24:06.700 --> 24:06.980]  Rob.
[24:07.120 --> 24:07.660]  Oh, Emmanuel.
[24:08.020 --> 24:08.580]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[24:09.280 --> 24:11.080]  Oh, I saw on Democracy Now!
[24:11.120 --> 24:13.680]  someone saying that WikiLeaks is not just one person as well.
[24:14.360 --> 24:15.540]  Well, I agree with them then.
[24:22.880 --> 24:29.660]  It would be foolish to hinge everything on Julian Assange, because he could be taken out at any moment.
[24:30.520 --> 24:33.020]  So they need to have a backup plan, and I'm sure they do.
[24:33.220 --> 24:35.080]  And I'm sure that's why the U.S.
[24:35.140 --> 24:38.460]  has not disappeared at Julian Assange at this point.
[24:38.580 --> 24:39.640]  And because they clearly could.
[24:39.820 --> 24:40.540]  I'm sure the U.S.
[24:40.580 --> 24:43.980]  could easily find Julian and take him out of commission.
[24:43.980 --> 24:50.720]  But then it might make their problems worse with the release of documents that WikiLeaks is still sitting on.
[24:50.860 --> 24:53.940]  So it's a really intriguing dilemma, the U.S.
[24:54.000 --> 24:54.320]  faces.
[24:55.480 --> 25:03.260]  And this is all part of why I thought maybe having Jacob Applebaum speak for WikiLeaks at Hope was a good thing, because we need more faces to WikiLeaks.
[25:03.360 --> 25:04.280]  We need to get the message out.
[25:04.400 --> 25:10.800]  WikiLeaks needs to get the message out that it's not just this one guy, Julian, who's really good at giving interviews and stuff, but he's not doing all the work.
[25:10.880 --> 25:11.560]  This isn't just him.
[25:11.560 --> 25:12.780]  It's a huge organization.
[25:12.860 --> 25:17.440]  It's just going to get huger as more interest is gathered and more people get involved.
[25:17.860 --> 25:25.040]  And I think really getting the message out there that this is a movement, it's not one guy, I think is important.
[25:25.560 --> 25:26.000]  Absolutely.
[25:26.600 --> 25:31.020]  Well, the story is certainly continuing, and I guess we'll continue to follow it.
[25:31.140 --> 25:47.340]  And by the way, if you want to hear audio from the recently concluded Hope Conference here in New York City about WikiLeaks, the keynote speech from Jacob Applebaum, representative of WikiLeaks, as well as the other keynote speech by Dan Kaminsky, security czar and expert,
[25:48.720 --> 25:59.840]  and also the informants panel, which talked about this particular issue, along with informant Adrian Lamo, and the social engineering panel, which is just a bit of fun that we hackers like to have sometimes.
[25:59.840 --> 26:02.200]  All that audio is available right now.
[26:02.580 --> 26:10.520]  If you go to www.2600.com or www.hope.net, you'll find the audio available for download.
[26:10.720 --> 26:13.020]  And the video is available online as well.
[26:13.100 --> 26:15.340]  Actually, it's available at our internet store, which is online.
[26:15.660 --> 26:17.340]  So click around to find that.
[26:17.620 --> 26:21.980]  But yeah, this is the quickest we've ever had audio and video available from the Hope Conference.
[26:21.980 --> 26:27.560]  And we felt it was necessary because this is really of interest.
[26:27.800 --> 26:28.820]  It's current events.
[26:29.000 --> 26:30.520]  Couldn't be more current events than this.
[26:31.000 --> 26:38.860]  Kyle and I were in the city yesterday walking around and noticing that it was on every single front page of every single newspaper.
[26:39.820 --> 26:41.480]  And everyone's talking about this.
[26:41.700 --> 26:44.280]  It's incredible how big a story can get so quickly.
[26:44.500 --> 26:47.980]  And hopefully it won't be forgotten as quickly, but I think it already is being forgotten somewhat.
[26:48.480 --> 26:49.600]  But it's not going to go away.
[26:49.600 --> 26:53.120]  There's going to be more and more said about this.
[26:53.280 --> 26:54.400]  More documents will be released.
[26:54.960 --> 26:55.760]  And the U.S.
[26:56.040 --> 27:02.020]  government has got some answers to give as far as how they're going to handle this.
[27:03.040 --> 27:03.360]  All right.
[27:04.700 --> 27:06.560]  Okay, we have the iPhone store.
[27:06.600 --> 27:07.560]  Who wants to talk about this?
[27:09.920 --> 27:16.120]  Apparently, the Librarian of Congress has made some kind of pronouncement.
[27:16.120 --> 27:20.060]  And the Librarian of Congress has all this power that I think a lot of people didn't realize.
[27:20.260 --> 27:21.440]  Gus, you want to tell us what this is all about?
[27:21.520 --> 27:23.020]  You mean the DMCA story, not just the iPhone store.
[27:23.020 --> 27:24.380]  Well, yeah, but it involves the iPhone.
[27:25.260 --> 27:28.320]  Very exciting, I think, in some ways, although some people are saying it's not enough.
[27:29.380 --> 27:35.640]  The Librarian of Congress is apparently the person in charge of changing the rules for the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which I did not know.
[27:37.340 --> 27:38.780]  And so those rules have been changed.
[27:38.900 --> 27:41.500]  It's now, what is it, legal to jailbreak your iPhone?
[27:41.760 --> 27:42.620]  It is...
[27:43.160 --> 27:50.300]  The thing that I was excited about is a lot of people got rights to copy things off of DVDs that they own.
[27:50.420 --> 27:52.700]  So documentary filmmakers are among them.
[27:53.220 --> 27:54.060]  Educators are among them.
[27:54.160 --> 28:03.260]  Although the thing that kind of blew my mind was media literacy educators are not allowed to make copies that way, which made me sort of go, well, first of all, how do you decide who's doing media literacy and who's not?
[28:03.260 --> 28:05.340]  Like, any teacher can show a DVD in class.
[28:06.600 --> 28:17.160]  And then also, like, media literacy teachers, in my opinion, really need to show good quality versions of things so they can talk about things like lighting and codecs and stuff like that.
[28:17.320 --> 28:29.440]  But that provision is made so that teachers, educators can make clip reel kind of things, like short edited versions of things they want to show in their classes, which is really nice.
[28:30.140 --> 28:36.400]  And hopefully we'll sort of eliminate this pall that hangs over educators.
[28:36.580 --> 28:44.140]  A lot of educators are afraid to use... to show videos in class or to use other copyrighted materials in class because they see those FBI warnings saying, don't show these in a public place.
[28:44.280 --> 28:45.000]  Don't copy.
[28:45.100 --> 28:45.840]  Copying is wrong.
[28:46.000 --> 28:55.280]  And so there's been a study, a great study by Rene Hobbs at, I think it's Temple University, who just basically found that a lot of educators were living in fear.
[28:55.280 --> 29:05.460]  And if we can get the word out about this enough, maybe we can let more educators know their rights are changing and their rights can be changed when it comes to using copyrighted materials in class.
[29:06.240 --> 29:09.240]  This doesn't change the right to use the material.
[29:09.320 --> 29:09.900]  That's fair use.
[29:10.000 --> 29:11.140]  That's been around for a while.
[29:11.280 --> 29:23.680]  What the Library of Congress said is that the educators now have the right to break the digital rights management on the DVD to get at the content to use it with their fair use rights.
[29:24.120 --> 29:29.500]  So I think it's a good change, but it doesn't change a whole lot.
[29:29.740 --> 29:31.260]  Yeah, what Mike said is true.
[29:31.480 --> 29:35.100]  The DMCA, there wasn't any rule changes.
[29:35.300 --> 29:42.780]  Rather, it was exemptions made to make sure that the law isn't overstepping rights that are already there.
[29:42.780 --> 29:45.160]  All right, so how does this affect the iPhone?
[29:45.280 --> 29:47.680]  Because all I'm hearing in the media is that this is all about the iPhone.
[29:47.820 --> 29:52.720]  Well, because now this means that people legally are allowed to jailbreak their iPhone.
[29:53.740 --> 30:03.120]  But why people say it doesn't go far enough is that this doesn't in any way require Apple to like it or make it easy for people to jailbreak their iPhone.
[30:03.120 --> 30:12.440]  Now, by jailbreak the iPhone, you mean make it work on other carriers other than AT&T, be able to download software that you're not supposed to download according to Apple?
[30:12.440 --> 30:21.920]  So unlocking your phone in a way such that you can use it on the carrier of your choice was already an exemption created by the Library of Congress.
[30:22.100 --> 30:29.200]  The new exemption also allows you to go into your phone and install unapproved software on it.
[30:29.880 --> 30:32.700]  Okay, and unapproved software, it's unapproved by Apple.
[30:32.820 --> 30:34.740]  Unapproved by Apple or any phone.
[30:34.860 --> 30:36.080]  It doesn't just apply to Apple.
[30:36.160 --> 30:39.120]  Of course, yeah, but Apple seems to be the most constraining of all the companies.
[30:39.120 --> 30:41.480]  Well, people love to talk about Apple, so I don't know.
[30:41.480 --> 30:51.180]  I love to talk about how Apple is, well, I just don't get the allure that people just mindlessly follow and obey all the rules because there certainly are a lot of them.
[30:51.260 --> 30:51.400]  Gus?
[30:51.620 --> 31:02.340]  I like, this is not what I was originally going to say, but I like what Mike has been doing where he's trying to violate Apple's branding on the phrase iPhone and call every smartphone an iPhone in order to help that go into the popular usage.
[31:03.220 --> 31:04.520]  How did you even notice he was doing that?
[31:04.540 --> 31:05.400]  When did you start doing that?
[31:05.440 --> 31:06.960]  We've been talking about this for a week or so now.
[31:07.240 --> 31:07.760]  Oh, really?
[31:07.760 --> 31:09.080]  Yeah, so let's talk about it more now.
[31:09.220 --> 31:09.940]  Yeah, talk about it more.
[31:10.000 --> 31:11.320]  Hey, if it's a smartphone, let's call it an iPhone.
[31:11.480 --> 31:12.760]  It's no good if you don't tell people about it.
[31:12.860 --> 31:13.300]  Yeah, it's not so.
[31:13.320 --> 31:15.200]  Although, actually, maybe then they'll come after us.
[31:15.200 --> 31:17.060]  So my phone is an iPhone then.
[31:17.300 --> 31:18.040]  Can I call it an iPhone?
[31:18.040 --> 31:19.620]  Yeah, I'm holding an iPhone right here in my hand.
[31:19.620 --> 31:21.140]  It says Samsung Moment on it, but yeah.
[31:21.200 --> 31:24.220]  We're going to really confuse people who can't see your hand, but...
[31:24.220 --> 31:25.360]  Drop my iPhone on the table.
[31:25.520 --> 31:29.260]  Anyway, the other thing is, I think this article that Bernie sent around was pretty cool.
[31:29.380 --> 31:32.980]  It was a critique of the narrowness of all of this.
[31:32.980 --> 31:39.080]  And one of the things it said is that the iPhone is included in there, but Bernie, did I understand right that the iPad is not?
[31:39.560 --> 32:07.140]  Yeah, not only that, but as you pointed out earlier, there's no protection from Apple basically stomping on anyone who decides to take advantage of these DMCA safe harbors by releasing a new software update that just stomps on anything someone does with their iPhone to take advantage of these new exemptions.
[32:07.280 --> 32:09.920]  So it's really kind of pointless.
[32:11.440 --> 32:12.420]  Go ahead.
[32:13.660 --> 32:15.780]  Okay, I think you had the last word on that.
[32:15.780 --> 32:16.740]  That was a good point.
[32:16.980 --> 32:17.120]  Yeah.
[32:17.460 --> 32:17.640]  Yeah.
[32:18.540 --> 32:19.980]  Okay, well, that's interesting.
[32:20.260 --> 32:30.440]  Do you have the story that in addition to this decision by the Librarian of Congress, there was a court case this week, which was totally separate legal process, but also good news about the DMCA.
[32:30.560 --> 32:31.560]  I don't know if you have that story.
[32:31.680 --> 32:35.660]  I don't see that story, but what did it basically say?
[32:36.780 --> 32:51.300]  It seems, as far as I can tell, to directly contradict the decision in the 2600 DECSS case, which it's the decision says if you break copy protection, but you're not going to break the law after that, it's okay.
[32:53.220 --> 32:56.640]  So it seems to me to be headed for the Supreme Court one way or another.
[32:56.800 --> 32:57.980]  And this is an interesting case.
[32:57.980 --> 33:01.460]  I don't have the story in front of me, so I forget the exact case.
[33:03.060 --> 33:09.280]  But it's two giant corporations fighting rather than a giant corporations on one side and very small entity on the other.
[33:09.700 --> 33:10.980]  So they have all these lawyers.
[33:11.760 --> 33:13.320]  So who knows what will happen?
[33:14.300 --> 33:14.680]  All right.
[33:14.960 --> 33:15.920]  You're listening to Off the Hook.
[33:16.080 --> 33:17.140]  We're going to take phone calls.
[33:17.240 --> 33:23.040]  We're going to try to take a bunch of phone calls because we're in fundraising mode next week and the two weeks after that.
[33:23.600 --> 33:27.320]  So we might not get a chance to speak to our listeners for a little while.
[33:27.320 --> 33:34.500]  So our number is 212-209-2900 if people have any questions, comments, things like that they'd like to share with us.
[33:34.840 --> 33:43.620]  And if you guys saw this story, we know that budget cuts are causing all kinds of problems, everything from mass transit to government services.
[33:43.760 --> 33:47.980]  But nothing like what I just read about in England.
[33:48.160 --> 33:57.800]  Officials announced this week that the country's ongoing financial crisis would necessitate the closure of a mysterious seaside village operated by the British government since 1967.
[33:58.480 --> 34:04.820]  In light of the current economic downturn, it is unwise to maintain this secret location any longer.
[34:04.900 --> 34:16.220]  So the man identified only as number two, referring to the bucolic village whose sole aim appeared to be the recovery of desirable information from former intelligence agents.
[34:16.640 --> 34:25.980]  Plus, the cost of maintaining human chess boards, outdated penny farthings, and our state-of-the-art escapee retrieval sphere just proved too much.
[34:25.980 --> 34:31.500]  We would have closed the whole place down years ago had it not been for one particularly uncooperative resident.
[34:31.760 --> 34:42.520]  The man refused to directly answer any questions about the village, instead using surreal imagery and oblique references before ending the press conference with a quiet and ominous be-seeing-you.
[34:43.560 --> 34:44.980]  Well, where did you get this article from again?
[34:46.580 --> 34:47.700]  Some, what is this?
[34:47.800 --> 34:48.760]  What's that better sourcing?
[34:49.620 --> 34:52.860]  You know, the source is smudged, I'm sorry.
[34:55.120 --> 34:55.940]  You don't say.
[34:56.040 --> 34:57.160]  It's the something.
[34:57.380 --> 34:59.440]  The something.com.
[34:59.700 --> 35:00.200]  I don't really...
[35:00.200 --> 35:02.000]  Is this some sort of the onion.com?
[35:02.080 --> 35:02.340]  Maybe it is.
[35:02.340 --> 35:02.920]  That could be it.
[35:03.080 --> 35:03.660]  It could be the onion.
[35:03.660 --> 35:04.640]  Well, I can't read it, so maybe it.
[35:04.640 --> 35:07.940]  This could be the beginning of an I Love Bees-style alternative reality game for all we know.
[35:07.940 --> 35:08.960]  But it's serious.
[35:09.400 --> 35:12.520]  And something else having to do with things that are hard to believe.
[35:12.700 --> 35:19.020]  Do you know that the Iroquois lacrosse team was supposed to fly to England to defend its title?
[35:19.280 --> 35:20.820]  Apparently, they play lacrosse over in England, too.
[35:21.260 --> 35:26.660]  And they were stranded in New York City since last Sunday because U.S.
[35:27.380 --> 35:31.260]  officials refused to recognize the players' Iroquois Confederacy passports.
[35:31.720 --> 35:38.080]  And British authorities would not allow them to come to England without a guarantee that they would be allowed to return to the United States.
[35:38.640 --> 35:50.840]  The State Department, with the help of Hillary Clinton, granted the team a one-time waiver on Wednesday that would have allowed them to travel on the tribal passports after Clinton intervened on their behalf.
[35:51.460 --> 35:57.180]  But the British government is now refusing to allow the team to travel to England using passports it does not recognize.
[35:57.660 --> 36:03.600]  A British consulate spokeswoman says the team would be able to travel only with documents the United Kingdom considers valid.
[36:03.740 --> 36:05.320]  That's according to the Associated Press.
[36:05.320 --> 36:07.300]  Actually, this was from last week.
[36:07.340 --> 36:14.700]  So I believe they missed their game and they weren't able to travel to England and defend their title.
[36:14.880 --> 36:23.140]  But it's interesting that they have such passports, that they believe in these passports and will not get United States RFID enhanced passports.
[36:23.200 --> 36:23.340]  Rob?
[36:23.500 --> 36:29.600]  They did miss their game, which is especially ironic considering the Iroquois, by many accounts, invented lacrosse.
[36:29.720 --> 36:30.340]  It's their sport.
[36:30.840 --> 36:33.760]  But they couldn't compete in the worldwide championship.
[36:34.120 --> 36:36.120]  Well, then again, you can say the same thing about England and the World Cup.
[36:36.160 --> 36:38.500]  They invented soccer, but look how they wound up.
[36:38.740 --> 36:39.340]  Only kidding.
[36:39.520 --> 36:39.880]  Yes, Gus.
[36:39.980 --> 36:40.520]  Well, that's...
[36:40.520 --> 36:44.900]  I mean, it sounded to me sort of like a big game of chicken where like, you know, the Iroquois nation...
[36:44.900 --> 36:45.280]  Like, the U.S.
[36:45.300 --> 36:49.260]  was going to have to recognize the sovereignty of the Iroquois nation in order to do this.
[36:49.280 --> 36:51.440]  And I think that was where they fell down.
[36:51.560 --> 36:54.220]  Like, they weren't going to do that, was my understanding.
[36:54.660 --> 36:58.160]  Well, that would be interesting if they actually did grant them travel.
[36:58.380 --> 37:04.920]  The Iroquois have been traveling with these passports issued to them by the Iroquois Confederacy, which is a sovereign nation, since the 1970s.
[37:04.920 --> 37:09.660]  The problem is that the passports are the same ones since they've been using... that they've been using since the 1970s.
[37:09.740 --> 37:10.700]  They don't have RFID.
[37:10.760 --> 37:11.520]  They're not machine readable.
[37:14.900 --> 37:16.040]  They don't have them to match up to the standard.
[37:16.760 --> 37:19.760]  And the Iroquois are a relatively small nation.
[37:19.760 --> 37:24.260]  I don't know if they have the resources to throw at printing up-to-date RFID-enabled...
[37:24.260 --> 37:26.240]  I'd like to see one of these passports.
[37:26.260 --> 37:34.140]  If any of our listeners are in the Iroquois nation, won't you please maybe come down here or invite us up there and we'll come and take a look.
[37:34.160 --> 37:35.200]  I'd just like to see one.
[37:35.280 --> 37:37.560]  We know people who can make RFID chips, right?
[37:37.660 --> 37:39.360]  So we could conceivably help them...
[37:39.360 --> 37:41.320]  I don't think they want the RFID chips.
[37:41.440 --> 37:44.060]  I think that's the whole point is they don't want to embrace this kind of thing.
[37:44.060 --> 37:48.120]  I mean, if it's their RFID chips, if it's kept in the Iroquois nation database...
[37:48.120 --> 37:52.080]  Yeah, you know, I don't think the Iroquois nation is big on databases, but I could be wrong about that.
[37:52.800 --> 37:54.300]  Also, they weren't given notice of this.
[37:54.380 --> 37:58.520]  This is something they found out on the day as they were at the airport, they weren't allowed to get on the plane.
[37:58.900 --> 38:02.420]  And of course, it was a very time-sensitive thing because they needed to get there in time to play their game.
[38:03.160 --> 38:12.540]  So, you know, if they had maybe had some sort of advance warning that they need to update their passport systems to be consistent with the rest of the Western world, then maybe they could have done something.
[38:12.860 --> 38:17.880]  Speaking of traveling overseas, now, Kyle, you're going to be going to Holland before next week's show.
[38:17.960 --> 38:20.520]  And I believe you're going to a hacker camp.
[38:20.700 --> 38:24.920]  Now, what kind of hacker camp is taking place in Holland this year that the rest of us aren't going to?
[38:25.400 --> 38:26.440]  I'm going to ETH...
[38:26.440 --> 38:26.920]  Go ahead.
[38:27.340 --> 38:29.040]  I'm going to ETH 10.
[38:30.440 --> 38:31.240]  ETH 10?
[38:31.680 --> 38:31.960]  Yeah.
[38:32.120 --> 38:32.300]  Okay.
[38:42.220 --> 38:43.060]  ETH 10 for HAAR.
[38:44.480 --> 38:47.140]  HAAR was a camp last summer in 2009.
[38:47.600 --> 38:57.060]  And this club sort of took over the core organizing functions as some of the other generations of organizers kind of passed the torch to them.
[38:57.280 --> 38:59.900]  So HAAR was their first big event.
[39:00.180 --> 39:03.140]  I think they also participated in What the Hack two years before that.
[39:03.360 --> 39:07.900]  But HAAR was one of their big events for them as a core group.
[39:07.900 --> 39:12.100]  And they have a winter event called Winterland.
[39:12.260 --> 39:14.740]  And this is, I guess, the summer land.
[39:14.900 --> 39:16.860]  But the actual title is ETH 10.
[39:17.140 --> 39:19.760]  And so it's a small camp, maybe like 300 or 400 people.
[39:19.880 --> 39:21.280]  And it's just outside of Amsterdam.
[39:21.440 --> 39:24.040]  Is it taking place at the same location that HAAR was at?
[39:24.040 --> 39:25.340]  No, it is not in Vierhouten.
[39:25.520 --> 39:25.820]  Okay.
[39:25.960 --> 39:29.500]  It is somewhere else, I think, to the north and west of Amsterdam.
[39:29.500 --> 39:30.900]  And we're going to be bicycling.
[39:31.380 --> 39:33.560]  You're going to be bicycling from Amsterdam to there?
[39:33.660 --> 39:33.780]  Yeah.
[39:33.780 --> 39:34.660]  I'm going to head to Amsterdam.
[39:34.660 --> 39:36.060]  And then we're going to bicycle.
[39:36.360 --> 39:40.540]  Some of the members of the group are going to bicycle with me out to the campsite.
[39:41.080 --> 39:41.220]  Okay.
[39:41.320 --> 39:42.260]  Sounds awesome.
[39:42.460 --> 39:44.300]  But it's, like you say, a small camp.
[39:45.000 --> 39:48.020]  Can people, regular people, go to this thing as well?
[39:48.220 --> 39:48.420]  Yeah.
[39:48.540 --> 39:52.920]  You can go to the website eth-0.nl.
[39:53.020 --> 39:54.340]  And you can purchase a ticket.
[39:55.580 --> 40:01.740]  And if you're American and you don't have a foreign bank account, you can contact them and maybe arrange a way to pay for a ticket.
[40:02.280 --> 40:03.880]  Or just show up and pay cash.
[40:05.260 --> 40:10.560]  So, it's totally manageable and open to people to join the group and have some fun.
[40:10.640 --> 40:14.000]  It's from the 10th to the 14th, I believe.
[40:14.120 --> 40:14.420]  Of August.
[40:14.460 --> 40:15.280]  10th to the 13th.
[40:15.340 --> 40:16.080]  It's four days.
[40:16.240 --> 40:16.440]  Okay.
[40:16.620 --> 40:18.500]  And it's about 300 people total.
[40:19.060 --> 40:20.500]  And, yeah, please come.
[40:20.740 --> 40:21.120]  All right.
[40:21.240 --> 40:22.860]  Well, I don't know if anybody else here is going.
[40:23.040 --> 40:24.480]  I'm still recuperating from Hope.
[40:24.480 --> 40:28.040]  So, I'll just be relaxing for a little bit longer.
[40:29.020 --> 40:31.560]  But, listeners, by all means, check it out.
[40:31.620 --> 40:33.200]  It's always fun to go to a hacker camp.
[40:33.200 --> 40:37.020]  And, of course, next year is the German hacker camp taking place in August.
[40:37.200 --> 40:38.880]  Do we have any more further information on that?
[40:39.460 --> 40:40.460]  I can tell you again.
[40:40.460 --> 40:41.280]  It's in Finofurt.
[40:41.600 --> 40:41.920]  Okay.
[40:42.000 --> 40:43.200]  That doesn't really mean a whole lot.
[40:43.260 --> 40:44.080]  It's outside of Berlin.
[40:44.080 --> 40:46.860]  It's a former East German air base.
[40:47.160 --> 40:48.100]  So, it's the same place.
[40:48.120 --> 40:48.780]  It's the same place.
[40:48.900 --> 40:49.860]  It's a very cool place.
[40:50.020 --> 40:50.880]  It's a very cool place.
[40:51.060 --> 40:51.180]  Yeah.
[40:51.900 --> 40:53.820]  Airplanes on the grounds are sort of hanging out.
[40:53.920 --> 40:54.540]  They're old airplanes.
[40:55.640 --> 40:57.120]  And, really picturesque.
[40:57.260 --> 40:58.540]  It's like 13 months away.
[40:58.540 --> 41:01.220]  So, more details will probably come in the intervening time.
[41:01.220 --> 41:04.760]  I'm going to stake out a good campground, like I did last time, well in advance.
[41:04.940 --> 41:08.160]  So that, yeah, I have my own territory.
[41:08.240 --> 41:10.780]  They might need it for the Air Museum in between now and then.
[41:11.520 --> 41:15.420]  I encourage people to come as well and go to these types of events overseas.
[41:15.680 --> 41:22.240]  And the majority of the reason that I'm actually going to this is because I made so many friends volunteering at Haar.
[41:22.540 --> 41:25.680]  And they've invited me and said, you know, they were very adamant.
[41:25.920 --> 41:29.820]  Like, immediately after Haar, they, you know, told me a year ago that I have to come out.
[41:29.840 --> 41:31.140]  You had to sign a paper.
[41:31.200 --> 41:31.860]  Yeah, I believe it's a binding.
[41:31.860 --> 41:33.660]  They wouldn't let you leave until you agreed to come back.
[41:33.800 --> 41:34.340]  It's binding.
[41:34.700 --> 41:36.180]  And, yeah, I've signed something.
[41:36.280 --> 41:37.200]  We did the same thing at Hope.
[41:37.240 --> 41:37.620]  So, there's no way I could miss it.
[41:37.720 --> 41:41.680]  Yeah, we had to do the same thing at Hope and make sure that you would come back for, for Hope No.
[41:41.760 --> 41:44.960]  9, I believe, scheduled for 2012, the end of the world.
[41:45.120 --> 41:47.840]  And their documents are in Dutch, so they could say anything at all.
[41:47.920 --> 41:48.280]  That's true.
[41:48.560 --> 41:50.620]  212-209-2900.
[41:50.800 --> 41:52.640]  Let's see if there's anybody out there.
[41:52.800 --> 41:53.340]  Good evening.
[41:53.500 --> 41:54.340]  You're on Off the Hook.
[41:54.860 --> 41:56.120]  Hey, how are you doing, Emmanuel?
[41:56.360 --> 41:56.880]  How are you doing?
[41:57.400 --> 41:57.600]  Good.
[41:57.900 --> 41:58.660]  It's Dino here.
[41:58.900 --> 42:04.540]  I just want to say that, first off, I want to give a big kudos to the crew for putting the Hope Act together.
[42:04.940 --> 42:10.680]  This past time, I was at the last Hope, but this thing, the last Hope was next Hope, but I was at the last Hope at all.
[42:10.840 --> 42:11.700]  Wait, well, you're confusing me.
[42:11.700 --> 42:13.280]  Were you at the last Hope, or were you at the next Hope?
[42:13.540 --> 42:15.740]  I was at the next Hope, plus the last Hope, so...
[42:15.740 --> 42:18.380]  Well, the next Hope hasn't happened yet, because that's in the future, isn't it?
[42:19.140 --> 42:21.660]  I knew this conversation would happen at some point.
[42:23.500 --> 42:38.460]  But also, what I want to point out is, today I was actually, well, I was actually watching news reports when the leaks of WikiLeaks, all those documents came up, they are actually already throwing Bradley under the bus, saying that they're possible, related to him.
[42:38.960 --> 42:42.960]  Yeah, I mean, there's no way to prove any of this, because...
[42:42.960 --> 42:46.440]  The media's already, like, putting him under the bus, which I think's wrong anyway, but...
[42:46.440 --> 42:46.720]  Mm-hmm.
[42:46.840 --> 42:52.940]  Well, they need to blame somebody, obviously, and if they can't get their hands on Julian, then they'll blame somebody else.
[42:53.740 --> 42:54.540]  Yeah, it's...
[42:55.000 --> 42:56.900]  The point is, what is being revealed?
[42:57.020 --> 42:57.800]  What is the information?
[42:58.000 --> 42:59.700]  What does that say about U.S.
[42:59.920 --> 43:02.780]  policy and complicity in war crimes and things like that?
[43:02.880 --> 43:03.020]  Gus?
[43:03.220 --> 43:04.840]  Dino, have you written to Bradley yet?
[43:05.780 --> 43:10.220]  I did fill a postcard at the next Hope convention.
[43:10.400 --> 43:17.280]  I did fill a postcard and did that, but I haven't written to him personally yet, but I plan to do that.
[43:17.520 --> 43:20.180]  Cool, yeah, because we should remind people that there's a site, right?
[43:20.280 --> 43:21.420]  I forget the URL right now.
[43:21.560 --> 43:22.620]  Is it Save Bradley Manning?
[43:23.520 --> 43:24.620]  Or Bradley Manning.org?
[43:24.860 --> 43:24.920]  Oh, you're right, Brad.
[43:24.920 --> 43:29.280]  Okay, well, you know, maybe we'll have the URL ready next time we suggest...
[43:29.280 --> 43:33.880]  There is a way to write to him and say, you know, chin up, kid, like we're all rooting for you, which I certainly do.
[43:34.140 --> 43:36.180]  All right, well, hopefully that message will get to him somehow.
[43:36.940 --> 43:37.320]  Save Bradley.
[43:37.920 --> 43:38.680]  Yeah, Save Bradley.
[43:38.800 --> 43:38.820]  Save Bradley.
[43:38.860 --> 43:41.240]  212-209-2900.
[43:41.300 --> 43:41.560]  Good evening.
[43:41.680 --> 43:42.520]  You're on Off the Hook.
[43:43.080 --> 43:43.720]  Hello, Emmanuel.
[43:43.920 --> 43:44.320]  Yes, go ahead.
[43:44.540 --> 43:45.160]  Oh, great show.
[43:45.220 --> 43:46.700]  I saw you last night on Amy Goodman.
[43:47.600 --> 43:48.520]  On Democracy Now?
[43:48.680 --> 43:48.800]  Yes.
[43:48.800 --> 43:51.300]  Yes, I do seem to recall being on that program yesterday.
[43:51.300 --> 43:52.240]  That was fun.
[43:52.400 --> 43:53.040]  That was an experience.
[43:53.260 --> 43:53.960]  Yeah, it sure was.
[43:54.260 --> 43:56.440]  Now go to Cuba where you belong, you commie.
[43:56.900 --> 43:58.080]  Well, it's interesting you should say that.
[43:58.080 --> 43:59.840]  I am considering doing just that.
[44:00.560 --> 44:01.600]  But you're on Democracy Now, isn't that...
[44:01.600 --> 44:03.120]  You're already on Democracy Now, isn't that...
[44:03.120 --> 44:04.040]  It's close enough, right?
[44:04.040 --> 44:06.780]  Well, yeah, I guess it's a step in that direction.
[44:07.040 --> 44:09.580]  But I was already in Cuba, and I'd love to go back.
[44:09.940 --> 44:10.020]  This guy.
[44:10.100 --> 44:11.040]  He's getting more creative.
[44:12.000 --> 44:13.360]  Well, that's more of a lead-up.
[44:13.500 --> 44:16.240]  That's more of a build-up to his argument, his thesis.
[44:16.740 --> 44:19.000]  All right, 212-209-2900.
[44:19.000 --> 44:19.460]  Good evening.
[44:19.580 --> 44:20.300]  You're on Off the Hook.
[44:20.540 --> 44:21.400]  Hey, how are you doing today?
[44:21.480 --> 44:22.020]  Tonight's show.
[44:22.460 --> 44:23.140]  Well, thank you.
[44:23.360 --> 44:28.940]  I just wanted to advise anyone that's interested in stuff like WikiLeaks to just Google Terror Storm.
[44:29.120 --> 44:30.460]  One word, Terror Storm.
[44:30.460 --> 44:32.460]  I'm not a big fan of Alex Jones.
[44:32.560 --> 44:33.280]  I think he's full of it.
[44:33.340 --> 44:40.580]  But he did that one nice video, Terror Storm, which is a short, a very brief history of American-sponsored terrorism.
[44:41.860 --> 44:43.780]  And so just Google Terror Storm.
[44:44.440 --> 44:46.620]  Okay, we will certainly endeavor to do that.
[44:46.760 --> 44:47.100]  Good evening.
[44:47.280 --> 44:48.280]  You're on Off the Hook.
[44:49.400 --> 44:49.860]  Hi.
[44:50.120 --> 44:51.340]  Great show, by the way.
[44:51.360 --> 44:59.780]  I just want to bring up something that may be closer to the hearts of Bernie S., reference the Iroquois Nation.
[45:00.520 --> 45:03.880]  I wonder how independent they actually are.
[45:04.100 --> 45:22.700]  Can, for example, someone go out there, since they're an independent country, do a deal with whatever authorities are on the Iroquois Reservation in New York State and, let's say, go and set up a 50,000-watt radio station on their land under a call sign issued by,
[45:22.780 --> 45:33.900]  let's say, the Iroquois Nation, and, you know, establish, I don't know, radio statler on a clear channel frequency just above the AM band or something.
[45:34.020 --> 45:36.200]  Just a weird idea that bounced through my head.
[45:36.340 --> 45:38.740]  It's a great idea, but I wonder how realistic that is.
[45:38.800 --> 45:39.400]  Bernie, what do you think?
[45:41.660 --> 45:42.060]  Bernie?
[45:42.620 --> 45:42.980]  Bernie?
[45:43.280 --> 45:43.640]  Okay.
[45:43.760 --> 45:46.380]  Bernie has been struck dumb by the idea.
[45:47.340 --> 45:47.700]  Yes.
[45:47.960 --> 45:48.960]  Hello, I'm back.
[45:48.980 --> 45:49.260]  Hello.
[45:49.380 --> 45:49.920]  Oh, there you are.
[45:50.060 --> 45:50.240]  Okay.
[45:50.340 --> 45:50.740]  Welcome back.
[45:50.980 --> 45:55.660]  I tend to mute my microphone so people can hear my heavy breathing, but I think it's a fantastic idea.
[45:56.320 --> 46:02.840]  But I'm not sure how the FCC would recognize, would react to that.
[46:02.960 --> 46:04.160]  While the U.S.
[46:04.900 --> 46:17.580]  government may say that the Iroquois Nation is a sovereign government, I'm not sure the FCC would necessarily agree that the Iroquois Nation would be exempt from FCC regulations, but I think it's worth a try.
[46:17.860 --> 46:30.780]  I'm not saying that that's a good idea or bad, but just brought up some kind of a communications nerd, that if they do issue separate passports, which the U.S.
[46:30.880 --> 46:42.080]  apparently recognizes, does that also indicate that they will issue their own or get their own block of, let's say, International Telecommunications Union call signs?
[46:42.720 --> 47:01.220]  And, you know, if they are recognized as a quote-unquote legitimate nation, can, let's say, somebody with, you know, appropriate negotiation skills, et cetera, go over there and say, hey, let's set up an alternative radio station at the, legally, under the laws of the Iroquois Nation.
[47:01.320 --> 47:02.580]  Just a weird thought.
[47:02.820 --> 47:05.120]  Now, I think there should be a lot more of this going on.
[47:05.120 --> 47:20.320]  I know in Canada, looking at my Canadian TV dish, there's not one but two APTN, Aboriginal People's Television Network stations, where you can see programs in native languages about native issues and all kinds of things.
[47:20.620 --> 47:21.900]  There's nothing like that in this country.
[47:21.980 --> 47:24.440]  There might be scattered programming in various places.
[47:24.440 --> 47:25.420]  You really have to search for it.
[47:25.480 --> 47:31.140]  But a nationwide network that's available on every single cable system throughout Canada, we have nothing of the equivalent here.
[47:31.300 --> 47:36.940]  And that's not to the extent of what you're suggesting, but it certainly is a step in that direction.
[47:37.140 --> 47:43.600]  And, you know, I would love to see a push for that kind of a thing, because that's a community that certainly deserves to be represented.
[47:44.720 --> 47:46.440]  Just sort of a weird thought.
[47:46.640 --> 47:48.240]  Okay, you have a great show.
[47:48.480 --> 47:48.820]  Thank you.
[47:48.940 --> 47:49.780]  And Rob, go ahead.
[47:49.960 --> 48:00.180]  And I'd just like to ask if any of our listeners, our members of, are familiar with any of the myriad sovereign Indian nations in this country, and who know more about this, call or email us and let us know, because we'd love to hear more about this.
[48:00.220 --> 48:04.640]  Can you get a top-level domain as an Iroquois Nation or another native nation?
[48:04.800 --> 48:06.520]  I don't remember seeing that on the list.
[48:06.600 --> 48:07.500]  That would be something, wouldn't it?
[48:07.940 --> 48:08.560]  That should be.
[48:09.680 --> 48:10.040]  .IQ.
[48:10.760 --> 48:12.680]  Or did Iraq take that?
[48:13.200 --> 48:13.980]  Oh, that's...
[48:13.980 --> 48:15.100]  Well, we can take it back, right?
[48:15.100 --> 48:15.920]  We always do.
[48:16.420 --> 48:24.300]  But, just that radio thing, I don't think the FCC would even have a say, since that's a federal agency.
[48:25.100 --> 48:31.220]  If anything, if the Iroquois Nation truly is recognized as a sovereign nation, that'd be a diplomatic issue.
[48:31.560 --> 48:40.280]  That might actually then be an issue that they would have to then give up on in, like, trying to get their passport to be recognized or some horrible horse game like that.
[48:40.420 --> 48:46.120]  I think the summary here is that we don't know that much about communications and sovereign nations within other nations.
[48:46.120 --> 48:47.740]  So, if you know, let us know.
[48:48.240 --> 48:49.180]  Call us, write us, whatever.
[48:49.300 --> 48:51.200]  Yeah, it'd be a fascinating project.
[48:51.340 --> 48:52.720]  Now, Mike, I understand you have some information for us.
[48:52.740 --> 48:56.700]  Yeah, I got a text message from Bernie S., and I don't know why he didn't just say it on the air.
[48:56.720 --> 48:59.040]  He sent you a text message while he's on the air.
[48:59.040 --> 49:06.880]  Yeah, and it says bradleymanning.org, and that's the correct URL to go to the support site for Bradley Manning.
[49:07.360 --> 49:07.700]  All right.
[49:08.700 --> 49:10.780]  Okay, it's too bad we can't send text messages to Bernie.
[49:10.960 --> 49:11.300]  We can.
[49:11.540 --> 49:13.260]  All right, we'll send a text message to him.
[49:13.640 --> 49:14.240]  What should I say?
[49:14.360 --> 49:15.440]  Say thank you for the introduction.
[49:16.380 --> 49:17.020]  All right.
[49:18.280 --> 49:19.780]  212-209-2900.
[49:19.920 --> 49:20.180]  Good evening.
[49:20.320 --> 49:21.300]  You're on Off the Hook.
[49:21.460 --> 49:22.060]  Yes, hello.
[49:22.320 --> 49:22.980]  Hi, what's on your mind?
[49:23.160 --> 49:24.520]  Tom from the Bronx here.
[49:24.820 --> 49:25.500]  What's going on?
[49:25.500 --> 49:44.520]  I'd like to say that if WikiLeaks exposes these wars as total frauds, it's serving a very, very good purpose, because the taxpayers' dollars are going through these crazy wars.
[49:45.440 --> 49:49.260]  Meantime, they don't have money for transportation, housing.
[49:49.740 --> 49:52.420]  The basic needs aren't met here.
[49:52.420 --> 49:54.900]  It's quite all right with Washington, D.C.
[49:54.900 --> 49:57.660]  They wouldn't give a hoot.
[49:57.800 --> 50:01.880]  They don't give a hoot about anything, about the general public.
[50:02.040 --> 50:21.740]  I mean, if you're going to run a war, all these wars, you would think that what they would do was to solidify their home base, make sure there's enough housing, make sure there's enough, make sure food prices don't soar.
[50:21.740 --> 50:25.100]  But what I mean to say is that this is crazy.
[50:25.440 --> 50:26.420]  It's insane.
[50:26.940 --> 50:27.960]  I agree.
[50:28.240 --> 50:28.540]  I agree.
[50:28.680 --> 50:30.380]  It's totally crazy.
[50:30.600 --> 50:32.200]  Let's take another phone call.
[50:32.260 --> 50:32.460]  Good evening.
[50:32.560 --> 50:33.220]  You're on Off the Hook.
[50:34.580 --> 50:35.060]  Hi.
[50:35.300 --> 50:35.940]  It's Sandra.
[50:35.960 --> 50:37.680]  This is a really fine show.
[50:37.860 --> 50:49.060]  I have to say, because I'm a longtime listener, although new to tech as an old woman, I know about WikiLeaks from Off the Hook for several years.
[50:49.580 --> 50:55.520]  There's an indigenous radio show on WBA on Thursday morning, and they have their own website.
[50:55.720 --> 50:57.620]  I think it's First Voices Radio.
[50:57.940 --> 51:03.480]  And we represent more communities on this radio station than I think all the stations in the city combined.
[51:03.700 --> 51:13.800]  But what I'm talking about is something that is reachable throughout the nation on every cable system, every local media outlet, something that would be accessible.
[51:13.800 --> 51:18.400]  I mean, I know people can listen online, obviously, but more in your face.
[51:18.620 --> 51:19.000]  We could ask them.
[51:19.100 --> 51:21.940]  I think we should probably ask those folks what they know about communications.
[51:22.440 --> 51:22.800]  Absolutely.
[51:23.200 --> 51:24.020]  Thanks for the call.
[51:24.100 --> 51:25.760]  Let's try and move on, see who else is out there.
[51:25.760 --> 51:26.040]  Good evening.
[51:26.140 --> 51:26.880]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:27.820 --> 51:28.080]  Hi.
[51:28.740 --> 51:31.400]  I missed the first part of the show, so I'm sorry if you covered this already.
[51:31.560 --> 51:32.480]  Well, that's your loss.
[51:34.520 --> 51:40.880]  Based on what you know about how WikiLeaks works, what do you think the chances are that the source will be discovered?
[51:42.220 --> 51:45.400]  That's a true source of the leaks.
[51:45.880 --> 51:46.320]  Yeah.
[51:46.560 --> 51:52.200]  I don't know much about how they do their anonymous submissions and what the safeguards they have.
[51:53.000 --> 51:53.600]  Mike, go ahead.
[51:53.740 --> 51:58.160]  The answer seems to be that their secure submission process seems to be pretty good.
[51:58.160 --> 52:01.420]  But if you talk to Adrian Lamo, then the government will know.
[52:01.660 --> 52:01.880]  Yeah.
[52:02.020 --> 52:03.500]  So don't talk to other people.
[52:03.600 --> 52:06.200]  If you're leaking, don't talk to other people and say that you're the person leaking.
[52:06.340 --> 52:07.840]  That seems to make a bit of sense.
[52:09.400 --> 52:21.220]  Because I think what Mike is saying is if the information is revealed as to who the leaker is, it'll be because they just can't keep their mouth shut about it, not because of anything that WikiLeaks itself does or any investigative process.
[52:21.940 --> 52:22.380]  Yeah.
[52:22.820 --> 52:37.580]  The way they have it set up, they try to do it in such a way that even they don't know who's telling them, so unless something that WikiLeaks has no control over happens, you know, someone talks to somebody or, you know, people just put two and two together,
[52:37.900 --> 52:39.480]  they won't reveal it.
[52:40.000 --> 52:40.400]  Yeah.
[52:40.520 --> 52:46.900]  And as it is, I think what WikiLeaks uses is a specially modified version of TOR, T-O-R, that stands for the Onion Router.
[52:47.020 --> 52:51.240]  So if you do research on that, you'll find out exactly how that works and the steps involved.
[52:51.240 --> 53:11.800]  Now, Kyle, I know we were talking about this, about perhaps some responsibility that leaking sites might have towards the people that leak information, maybe advising them on what not to do or how to stay safe or just things that they might not think of without entering into a dialogue with them,
[53:11.840 --> 53:13.320]  because then obviously you know who they are.
[53:13.500 --> 53:13.980]  What do you think?
[53:14.180 --> 53:14.580]  Yeah.
[53:14.580 --> 53:33.160]  I think what I conclude is they need like an FAQ or some sort of letter that is standardized for people that are leaking to them that instill some faith that they will be supported in their anonymity so that, you know, no matter where they're at as far as why they're leaking something,
[53:33.360 --> 53:52.080]  they've had this moment, this change of heart or had this conscious, they've gotten a conscience about what they were working on and decided, you know what, this isn't for me, and they're choosing a different path, then WikiLeaks is definitely there as a resource for the what's next as far as doing something about that feeling,
[53:52.280 --> 54:07.920]  but they need to instill some faith, some confidence in who they're getting information from so that they don't run off and get crazy and get sort of, you know, there's a lot of reasons why people leak, and we can explore that.
[54:08.020 --> 54:27.640]  But I think that the emotional side of that for someone who is leaking, I think they need to somehow support that indirectly or directly, maybe we need to talk about it a little more, but even just a letter on their site or something that's a part of their leaking process that gives people the confidence they need in the ensuing days and months,
[54:27.760 --> 54:36.260]  knowing that what they've said is out there publicly or being analyzed by WikiLeaks, you know, they need something there for them because they have to live with that in secret.
[54:36.260 --> 54:36.280]  Right.
[54:36.520 --> 54:40.900]  And it's also worth noting, once again, that WikiLeaks to date has never revealed anything about their sources.
[54:41.620 --> 54:43.600]  This whole Manning issue is because he told someone else.
[54:45.240 --> 54:47.700]  That's what it would appear at this point with what we know.
[54:47.800 --> 54:49.540]  Okay, let's see if we can squeeze in one more phone call.
[54:49.620 --> 54:49.920]  Good evening.
[54:50.080 --> 54:50.900]  You're on off the hook.
[54:51.500 --> 54:51.860]  Yes.
[54:51.940 --> 54:52.180]  Hello.
[54:52.460 --> 54:52.620]  Yes.
[54:52.880 --> 54:54.560]  I'd just like to add...
[54:54.560 --> 54:55.080]  Okay.
[54:55.680 --> 54:57.480]  Let's make a rule here.
[54:57.580 --> 54:59.300]  You call once during the show, all right?
[54:59.300 --> 55:00.520]  We have a limited amount of time here.
[55:00.960 --> 55:03.120]  Give us two hours and we'll take longer phone calls.
[55:03.160 --> 55:03.380]  Good evening.
[55:03.380 --> 55:04.060]  You're on off... Nope.
[55:04.380 --> 55:04.860]  They hung up.
[55:04.920 --> 55:06.260]  I guess that was too long a statement for them.
[55:06.500 --> 55:06.780]  Good evening.
[55:06.920 --> 55:07.600]  You're on off the hook.
[55:08.360 --> 55:08.880]  Hey, Emmanuel.
[55:09.080 --> 55:10.120]  It's Nick Godd.
[55:10.540 --> 55:11.120]  Hi, how are you doing?
[55:11.340 --> 55:16.640]  I just wanted to comment on the previous call you got about the Iroquois Nation and FM radio.
[55:18.800 --> 55:22.440]  Regarding whether or not they are a sovereign nation, as far as I can tell, they are.
[55:23.420 --> 55:28.300]  And there have been instances where police just can't do anything about what they do over there.
[55:28.960 --> 55:29.440]  Yeah.
[55:29.520 --> 55:36.180]  And there have also been instances of border blasting from Mexican border towns in the past.
[55:36.260 --> 55:40.420]  And they were able to operate for years and the FCC wasn't able to touch them.
[55:40.520 --> 55:40.680]  Right.
[55:40.800 --> 55:49.360]  There are stations just south of San Diego that operated huge power and don't follow any FCC regulations, but they're American stations for all intents and purposes.
[55:50.160 --> 55:52.340]  So, I mean, in theory, it should be possible.
[55:52.520 --> 55:57.860]  The only obstacle would be getting them the support they would need to actually get the transmitter set up.
[55:57.860 --> 56:01.440]  This sounds like something Prometheus radio people would really be interested in.
[56:01.600 --> 56:02.180]  What do you think, Bernie?
[56:02.720 --> 56:03.660]  I think it's a great idea.
[56:03.760 --> 56:07.620]  I'm going to talk to Petri Dish at Prometheus just about this topic.
[56:07.700 --> 56:09.160]  And it wouldn't have to be limited to FM radio.
[56:09.160 --> 56:15.340]  It could be a medium wave station, you know, an AM radio band, or an international shortwave station.
[56:16.100 --> 56:22.280]  Yeah, but, you know, I mean, I'm all for a shortwave and all that, but let's make it something that everybody can get.
[56:22.280 --> 56:26.120]  I know everybody theoretically can get shortwave, but the fact is most people don't.
[56:26.200 --> 56:31.560]  If it was something that was on FM, something that was on AM, easily accessible on car radios, that would be great, wouldn't it?
[56:32.420 --> 56:34.680]  Yeah, well, I'm not saying it should be limited to FM.
[56:34.820 --> 56:48.920]  I think they should explore all parts of the broadcast spectrum, FM, AM, and shortwave, and then really express their voice around the world and around the nation via radio.
[56:48.920 --> 56:50.800]  Okay, well, that's a great idea.
[56:50.840 --> 56:53.280]  And it's something that got started right here on this show.
[56:53.380 --> 56:56.640]  I don't think anybody was thinking about this project before we started tonight.
[56:57.060 --> 56:58.500]  Anyway, we are out of time.
[56:58.640 --> 57:01.200]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:01.580 --> 57:04.000]  We'll be back again next week with another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[57:04.200 --> 57:05.420]  Until then, have a good night.
[57:57.500 --> 58:04.020]  Little computer people living in a digital world.
[58:04.900 --> 58:07.760]  Can't you see them on the screen?
[58:08.460 --> 58:11.300]  You're the master, you're the key.
[58:12.120 --> 58:18.440]  Little computer people living in a digital world.
[58:19.340 --> 58:22.020]  Can't you see them on the screen?
[58:22.820 --> 58:25.680]  You're the master, you're the key.
[59:09.730 --> 59:16.210]  Little computer people living in a digital world.
[59:17.070 --> 59:19.830]  Can't you see them on the screen?
[59:20.530 --> 59:23.390]  You're the master, you're the key.
[59:27.840 --> 59:30.620]  Living in a digital world.
[59:31.500 --> 59:34.280]  Can't you see them on the screen?
[59:35.200 --> 59:37.860]  You're the master, you're the key.
[59:42.420 --> 59:45.060]  Living in a digital world.
[59:46.160 --> 59:48.700]  Can't you see them on the screen?
[59:49.700 --> 59:51.200]  You're the master,
[01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:03.500]  you're the key.
[01:00:03.500 --> 01:00:05.100]  Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
[01:00:05.600 --> 01:00:06.120]  Yeah!
[01:00:07.420 --> 01:00:12.760]  They rockin' here with their music, that show does.
[01:00:13.160 --> 01:00:14.060]  The show.
[01:00:14.060 --> 01:00:14.120]  The show.