[00:02.560 --> 00:05.100]  And that wraps up today's program.
[00:05.100 --> 00:07.340]  The newscast was produced by Catherine Komp.
[00:07.540 --> 00:09.180]  Headlines editor was Jess Burns.
[00:09.360 --> 00:10.320]  Washington, D.C.
[00:10.400 --> 00:11.700]  editor was Tanya Snyder.
[00:11.860 --> 00:16.620]  Today's tactical production team at KPFA in Berkeley is Rose Katopchi and Scott Pham.
[00:16.780 --> 00:19.320]  You can visit us online at fsrn.org.
[00:19.340 --> 00:24.320]  You can send questions, comments, or news tips to comments at fsrn.org.
[00:24.320 --> 00:25.100]  Thanks for listening.
[00:25.320 --> 00:27.120]  In New York, I'm Dorian Marina.
[00:31.950 --> 00:34.450]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:34.650 --> 00:35.430]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:35.530 --> 00:37.290]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:16.190 --> 02:17.010]  And greetings to everybody.
[02:17.170 --> 02:18.010]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:18.090 --> 02:19.150]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:19.410 --> 02:21.090]  Tonight joined by Mike.
[02:21.250 --> 02:21.510]  Hi.
[02:21.750 --> 02:22.210]  Dot Rett.
[02:22.450 --> 02:22.650]  Hello.
[02:22.990 --> 02:23.310]  Jim.
[02:23.610 --> 02:23.850]  Hi.
[02:23.990 --> 02:24.290]  Rob T.
[02:24.450 --> 02:24.810]  Firefly.
[02:25.030 --> 02:25.350]  Good evening.
[02:25.590 --> 02:25.950]  Voltaire.
[02:26.130 --> 02:26.390]  Howdy.
[02:26.870 --> 02:27.630]  And Bernie S.
[02:27.730 --> 02:28.450]  down there in Philadelphia.
[02:28.810 --> 02:29.090]  Greetings.
[02:30.250 --> 02:30.970]  From Philadelphia.
[02:31.330 --> 02:32.830]  Actually, I'm somewhere else in Pennsylvania.
[02:32.830 --> 02:35.110]  I just didn't want to confuse our listeners, so I just said greetings.
[02:35.370 --> 02:35.650]  Okay.
[02:35.870 --> 02:37.310]  Well, you can say greetings from Pennsylvania, I suppose.
[02:37.490 --> 02:37.970]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:38.190 --> 02:38.370]  Okay.
[02:38.890 --> 02:41.730]  Well, Bernie's in a mysterious place somewhere in Pennsylvania.
[02:43.010 --> 02:48.070]  We're here to talk about all kinds of new technology and new ways of thinking, perhaps.
[02:48.250 --> 03:06.030]  Something that's really exciting that I just found out about, actually, and I'm sure a lot of us are following this with bated breath, because we follow the new trends and the new developments and inventions and things that will be used in the future to affect all of our lives.
[03:06.030 --> 03:10.450]  Of course, I'm talking about what the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has been trying out.
[03:10.590 --> 03:12.670]  It's a new way to break up fights between inmates.
[03:12.830 --> 03:14.710]  A high-tech heat ray.
[03:14.910 --> 03:15.330]  Yeah.
[03:15.450 --> 03:18.050]  It's called the assault intervention device.
[03:18.150 --> 03:22.150]  It showers a person with an intolerable heating sensation.
[03:22.770 --> 03:24.270]  That's according to the Sheriff's Department.
[03:24.810 --> 03:31.270]  According to the inmates, we can't print what they said about it, but they agree pretty much that it's an intolerable heating sensation.
[03:31.890 --> 03:35.950]  Inmates just have to step away from the heat ray to stop the pain.
[03:36.030 --> 03:41.850]  And authorities hope inmates will also step away from the scuffles they were in in the process.
[03:42.210 --> 03:51.390]  We believe, said Sheriff Lee Baca, that technology can help solve problems facing the corrections community, including addressing issues of inmate violence.
[03:51.390 --> 03:53.110]  The assault intervention device.
[03:53.330 --> 03:54.250]  A-I-D.
[03:54.890 --> 03:55.790]  A-I-D.
[03:57.290 --> 03:58.930]  It's the aid device.
[03:59.090 --> 04:01.850]  Yes, it aids them in controlling their inmates.
[04:02.310 --> 04:13.410]  Appears uniquely suited to address some of the more difficult inmate violence issues without the drawbacks of tools currently available to us, such as batons and feet and various other implements that they use.
[04:13.410 --> 04:19.250]  The heat device will be handy dealing with fights in an inmate's dormitory, in the dining room, or exercise yard.
[04:19.710 --> 04:24.090]  Situations where jail officials often have to wait for backup to safely deal with the situation.
[04:24.330 --> 04:30.930]  This device will allow us to quickly intervene without having to enter the area and without incapacitating or injuring either combatant.
[04:31.270 --> 04:35.190]  Instead, they'll simply blast them with intolerable heat rays.
[04:35.630 --> 04:37.850]  And, um, wow, that is something.
[04:38.050 --> 04:42.950]  Now, what I wonder is, um, what happens when there's no place for the inmate to step away to?
[04:43.410 --> 04:48.530]  What happens when this is beamed directly into their cell as, uh, as payback for something that they may have done at some point?
[04:48.750 --> 04:52.850]  Uh, what happens when this device is, uh, eventually used on the rest of us?
[04:52.970 --> 04:54.510]  Because this is what happens.
[04:54.630 --> 04:55.710]  They test things in the military.
[04:55.950 --> 04:56.970]  They test things in prison.
[04:57.470 --> 05:04.190]  Then they use it on the rest of us at demonstrations and various other gatherings where they want to control what it is we say and what it is we do.
[05:04.190 --> 05:16.370]  You can count on the assault intervention device being used at the next political convention to, um, control free speech zones and, uh, and unruly, um, um, activist and various things like that.
[05:16.370 --> 05:18.250]  Or am I just being too pessimistic?
[05:18.370 --> 05:21.150]  Is this really, uh, something that, uh, that can help us, Rob?
[05:21.570 --> 05:22.430]  I don't know.
[05:22.530 --> 05:29.850]  Are you really suggesting that, uh, those in positions of authority when given tools that are able to be used unfairly, uh, against their enemies would do so?
[05:29.850 --> 05:32.490]  I think, uh, they're almost expected to.
[05:32.870 --> 05:33.670]  I think so, Voltaire.
[05:33.990 --> 05:38.170]  We've already seen those, um, ear bleeding inducers, uh, use that demonstration.
[05:38.450 --> 05:39.510]  The, the loud things.
[05:39.590 --> 05:39.850]  Yeah.
[05:40.070 --> 05:40.890]  They've, they've done that.
[05:41.110 --> 05:42.850]  Was it in Pittsburgh they did that recently?
[05:43.070 --> 05:43.170]  Yeah.
[05:43.270 --> 05:46.950]  And then in the, um, was it Toronto or Vancouver they purchased?
[05:47.370 --> 05:48.230]  Uh, somewhere in Canada.
[05:48.410 --> 05:49.730]  Yeah, the G8 or 20.
[05:49.730 --> 05:50.370]  They use these things.
[05:50.370 --> 05:51.110]  That was in Toronto.
[05:51.410 --> 05:51.690]  Thank you.
[05:51.770 --> 05:54.930]  They use these things, uh, in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
[05:54.930 --> 05:56.870]  Then they use them here at home.
[05:57.370 --> 05:59.670]  Um, and they, they try things out in prison.
[05:59.670 --> 06:01.570]  And then they try them out on the streets.
[06:01.830 --> 06:02.090]  Dot Red.
[06:02.650 --> 06:07.590]  Um, well, uh, based on this, uh, discussion before we go any further, I want to throw out the question.
[06:07.750 --> 06:16.230]  Uh, I mean, besides the fact that it seems pretty obvious that if they have tools that aren't necessarily lethal, that people say they're more willing to use it.
[06:17.710 --> 06:19.710]  Still, uh, long range.
[06:20.070 --> 06:23.410]  How many other useful implements do they have besides guns?
[06:23.750 --> 06:24.530]  So the question is...
[06:25.510 --> 06:26.530]  What, to break up fights?
[06:26.990 --> 06:29.370]  Haven't they been breaking up fights for, for decades now?
[06:29.830 --> 06:30.570]  Centuries even?
[06:30.930 --> 06:36.470]  Do they really need this, this, uh, uh, tool of the sun to burn people and to control them?
[06:36.570 --> 06:40.330]  I'm prepared to argue and know that breaking up fights probably, like, predates written history.
[06:40.670 --> 06:41.290]  Probably does.
[06:41.290 --> 06:41.850]  Probably does.
[06:42.170 --> 06:45.550]  In fact, that's probably what they were fighting about, is how to start writing history.
[06:45.550 --> 06:45.790]  Yeah.
[06:45.870 --> 06:46.350]  Who knows?
[06:46.730 --> 06:49.250]  But, yeah, this is, um, it's a torture device.
[06:49.430 --> 06:50.330]  There is no question about it.
[06:50.350 --> 06:56.290]  But the way they're phrasing it, they're making it sound like such a, such an amazing new device, the assault intervention device.
[06:56.390 --> 07:04.550]  And they're, they're throwing assault in there because it's, it's battling the assault of the evil inmates, uh, and, and not defining itself as a weapon of assault.
[07:04.550 --> 07:07.530]  Well, that sounds a lot better than saying that you're, uh, microwaving somebody.
[07:08.050 --> 07:10.250]  Which is, yeah, who knows what the health effects will be, Rob?
[07:10.250 --> 07:13.090]  If it's such a peaceful, non-lethal device, are we allowed to have them?
[07:13.450 --> 07:14.710]  Well, that's an interesting question.
[07:15.210 --> 07:16.810]  I know, Bernie, you want to, uh, go in on one?
[07:16.990 --> 07:20.230]  Well, the question was, uh, is this, uh, is this using microwaves?
[07:20.330 --> 07:23.270]  And the fact, the fact is, yes, this is a, uh, microwave device.
[07:23.430 --> 07:25.890]  They, they plan to microwave humans with this thing.
[07:26.450 --> 07:37.210]  Um, if you, there's pictures of it, um, you can just search up, search, uh, uh, through some search engine, just look for Raytheon, that's R-A-Y-T-H-E-O-N, and, uh, PainRay.
[07:37.210 --> 07:42.390]  This, uh, this device was actually designed for use, uh, in the battlefield in, uh, in Iraq.
[07:42.990 --> 07:57.990]  Um, but, uh, after it was, uh, it was deployed but not used on, for crowd control there, once the State Department realized this would, uh, not look really good in the eyes of the world, that we are microwave, uh, people who, whose hearts and minds we were allegedly trying to,
[07:58.150 --> 07:59.090]  trying to win.
[07:59.290 --> 08:00.930]  So, it was called off.
[08:01.230 --> 08:05.530]  And Raytheon was left with this product with, with no market for it.
[08:05.530 --> 08:13.550]  So, they started actively marketing it to, uh, the, the, the, the correction, uh, industrial complex here in, uh, the United States.
[08:13.690 --> 08:13.830]  Mm-hmm.
[08:13.950 --> 08:14.410]  And L.A.
[08:14.490 --> 08:18.290]  County Prison would, it was only, it was only too glad to, uh, to test it.
[08:18.490 --> 08:20.550]  So, uh, that's where it's going to be deployed.
[08:20.590 --> 08:22.890]  It looks like a, like a, like a small truck.
[08:22.890 --> 08:31.270]  It's on a, it's on a cart, and it's a, a big square panel, maybe about four feet, uh, four feet on a side, like a dish.
[08:31.630 --> 08:31.730]  Mm-hmm.
[08:31.730 --> 08:38.990]  And you point it at, uh, your target and switch it on, and, and they feel, uh, intense burning sensations on their skin.
[08:39.230 --> 08:41.170]  What kind of a, what kind of a range does it have?
[08:41.210 --> 08:41.890]  How far can it go?
[08:42.030 --> 08:42.470]  Good question.
[08:42.690 --> 08:45.490]  It looks like it's, um, a few tens of feet.
[08:45.870 --> 08:53.190]  Um, the, the larger ones that I saw demonstrated on, with videos, uh, were maybe a couple of 300 feet.
[08:53.410 --> 08:56.410]  But this looks like a smaller one for use in, uh, in buildings.
[08:56.410 --> 09:01.950]  So, I would guess at least a hundred some feet, depending on, they could probably adjust it a couple, couple 300 feet.
[09:02.010 --> 09:03.190]  But you said it's like a small truck.
[09:03.250 --> 09:06.550]  That means, uh, a couple of people are going to need to carry it around.
[09:06.710 --> 09:08.590]  Yeah, this isn't, this isn't something you can hand carry.
[09:08.790 --> 09:14.430]  This is something that's like a, it's on like a, like one of these large office carts that you would wheel equipment around on.
[09:14.590 --> 09:15.930]  So let me see if I get the scenario straight.
[09:16.050 --> 09:18.930]  There's a, there's a, a fight going on somewhere in the prison.
[09:19.190 --> 09:26.810]  And, uh, you know you're in trouble when, when, uh, the, the mini truck gets backed in and people start setting up a satellite dish looking thing and pointing it at you.
[09:26.910 --> 09:29.150]  You didn't, that's enough time for the fight to stop, don't you think?
[09:29.570 --> 09:37.750]  Well, you know, it'd probably be a, one or two, uh, uh, correction officers would, would, would wheel this thing in, then plug it in and switch it on.
[09:37.850 --> 09:43.250]  But, you know, I would think that, uh, the prisoners would just move out of the way and can you continue fighting?
[09:43.690 --> 09:51.010]  Yeah, clearly the, the, the answer to this is to have it permanently mounted in various places with a very wide range so that they could flick it on any moment.
[09:51.010 --> 10:00.470]  And, you know, imagine if somebody's trying to escape or just walking out of line somewhere, uh, that's, it's, you just, you flick the thing on and then, uh, all of a sudden, uh, they, they, they tow the line.
[10:00.590 --> 10:07.490]  Or imagine if they were installed in, uh, in smaller rooms like individual cells, uh, just only need to be switched on remotely when...
[10:07.490 --> 10:08.730]  Interrogation chambers, for instance.
[10:08.850 --> 10:11.610]  Well, yeah, if just someone was misbehaving or not answering the question...
[10:11.610 --> 10:12.690]  Or not giving the right answer.
[10:12.910 --> 10:15.890]  Just flip the switch and I'll get, you get an attitude change right away.
[10:16.050 --> 10:16.630]  Wow, Mike.
[10:16.790 --> 10:18.490]  What happens if the prisoners have mirrors?
[10:20.010 --> 10:21.010]  Actually, it's a good question.
[10:21.090 --> 10:21.710]  It wouldn't be a mirror.
[10:21.850 --> 10:25.150]  You'd want, you'd want a, uh, a metal, just basically a metal surface.
[10:25.330 --> 10:28.350]  Even tinfoil rolled, uh, rolled out on some sheets.
[10:28.490 --> 10:30.370]  A street activist, if this is used on them.
[10:30.670 --> 10:31.030]  Tinfoil?
[10:31.110 --> 10:32.210]  Is there nothing it can't do?
[10:32.390 --> 10:33.050]  Good stuff.
[10:33.250 --> 10:34.430]  You'd probably even use duct tape.
[10:34.550 --> 10:39.510]  But, uh, yeah, just a, just a, a metal reflector, uh, a few feet in diameter or square.
[10:39.950 --> 10:43.370]  Uh, you could point it back at the, uh, at the, at the attackers.
[10:43.770 --> 10:45.710]  And, uh, that would be really interesting to see what happens.
[10:46.310 --> 10:48.470]  You'd probably get charged with something horrible.
[10:48.590 --> 10:48.970]  Oh, sure.
[10:49.070 --> 10:49.210]  Well...
[10:49.210 --> 10:50.110]  Spend the rest of your life in jail.
[10:50.230 --> 10:51.550]  But it would be amusing for a few seconds.
[10:51.690 --> 10:55.470]  I mean, we, we, we hear about these developments in technology that are used against people.
[10:55.470 --> 10:59.070]  But when the people use it in the other direction, all of a sudden it's the worst crime in the world.
[10:59.210 --> 11:12.570]  Case in point, the, uh, recent GPS, uh, uh, case that was brought out in the news where, uh, police are saying they should have the right to, uh, to trespass onto somebody's property, stick a GPS device onto their car without a, um, a warrant of any sort,
[11:12.730 --> 11:14.450]  and, and track their movements.
[11:14.790 --> 11:17.930]  And their rationale is, well, you know, we can, we can follow them anyway.
[11:17.930 --> 11:19.350]  We can follow them in the car.
[11:19.570 --> 11:22.110]  Uh, they're in the public, uh, street.
[11:22.330 --> 11:24.350]  So they don't have any expectation of privacy.
[11:24.570 --> 11:26.330]  Uh, so why shouldn't we be able to do this?
[11:26.490 --> 11:37.770]  But, um, if you flip the logic and, and you decide, hey, I'd like to see where all the police cars are going, uh, day and night, and you put GPS devices on their cars, all of a sudden you'll find out that, uh, it is a crime.
[11:37.970 --> 11:41.350]  It's a, it's a big crime and a big violation of, of privacy.
[11:41.750 --> 11:45.930]  There have been a number of cases, uh, relating to this issue just in the past week or two.
[11:46.050 --> 11:47.550]  And what's interesting is that they conflict.
[11:47.710 --> 11:52.610]  Some of the circuit courts are saying that, uh, it's, uh, legal for the police to do this.
[11:52.710 --> 11:55.450]  And some of them are saying that the police need a warrant to do this.
[11:55.690 --> 11:57.850]  Uh, so it's probably headed to the Supreme Court.
[11:58.190 --> 11:59.190]  Yeah, I would imagine so.
[11:59.270 --> 11:59.510]  Voltaire.
[12:00.750 --> 12:01.150]  No?
[12:01.230 --> 12:01.470]  Okay.
[12:02.430 --> 12:04.010]  Um, yeah, so, yeah, go ahead, Bernie.
[12:04.330 --> 12:17.270]  One of the interesting, uh, arguments that the, the most recent, uh, circuit court case, um, I forget where it was, uh, the federal judges, uh, uh, a couple of them were saying, well, uh, well, most of the judge, the majority decision in, in most recent case,
[12:17.350 --> 12:24.670]  which was saying it was, uh, uh, it was legal for, for police to, to creep onto your, up your driveway and attach one of these things to your car.
[12:25.110 --> 12:30.850]  Um, they were saying, well, you could, uh, if you want privacy, you could just build a big fence around your property and the police wouldn't come on there.
[12:30.850 --> 12:41.550]  And then, uh, the minority opinion judges were saying, well, wait a minute, this only ensures privacy for, for wealthy people who can afford to build a big, build a big high fence around their, or a moat around their property.
[12:41.770 --> 12:49.610]  Um, I guess most judges, since they get a high salary, don't necessarily think of things in terms of, yeah, it would cost a lot of money to build a big fence around your property.
[12:49.610 --> 12:56.170]  But isn't it, isn't it trespassing just the same if you don't have a fence and, uh, somebody goes onto your property as if you climb the fence?
[12:56.430 --> 13:09.330]  And one of the decisions said, uh, one of the, one of the opinions from that court said that, uh, if it was, if the property was posted as private, no trespassing, um, but without that, no, because, because the past rulings along these lines have been,
[13:09.470 --> 13:17.230]  uh, for other types of things where it's like, you know, salespeople can walk up your driveway and knock on your door and that's not trespassing unless it's posted no trespassing.
[13:17.390 --> 13:33.050]  So if you don't want, uh, if you want to positively protect yourself from having that surveillance used against you in court of law, if you conspicuously post all your property with a no trespassing signs and or put up a big fence, then it would make it more difficult for it to be used on,
[13:33.170 --> 13:35.630]  against you in court, but that doesn't mean they won't use it on you.
[13:35.750 --> 13:44.550]  How about those new devices that if somebody goes up to your car and starts touching it, still spikes come out and, uh, severely injure the person attempting to do so?
[13:44.930 --> 13:48.570]  That's, uh, that would be, you would be found liable for injuring them because it doesn't matter.
[13:48.790 --> 13:49.470]  That's interesting.
[13:49.710 --> 13:49.870]  Wow.
[13:49.990 --> 13:51.270]  What if you don't own property?
[13:51.470 --> 13:57.650]  What if you just rent a house or an apartment somewhere and you don't have the, uh, right to stick signs up around?
[13:58.210 --> 13:58.970]  That's a good question.
[13:59.070 --> 13:59.830]  Wow, you screwed then.
[13:59.970 --> 14:00.290]  You screwed.
[14:00.670 --> 14:01.070]  Totally.
[14:02.150 --> 14:02.550]  Unbelievable.
[14:02.710 --> 14:02.950]  Voltaire.
[14:03.230 --> 14:06.870]  It's not just, uh, GPS devices that we're not able to use against, uh, police.
[14:07.310 --> 14:15.050]  It's, uh, things are as simple as, um, taking photographs are, uh, videotaping police in, uh, the elective states are trying to outlaw that.
[14:15.250 --> 14:23.890]  Well, if you actually videotape a cop doing their job or interrogating somebody or doing something wrong, doing something right, you're somehow violating their rights.
[14:24.030 --> 14:24.870]  They can do the same to you.
[14:24.970 --> 14:25.990]  Anyone else can do the same to you.
[14:26.070 --> 14:27.250]  But if you do it to a cop, all of a sudden...
[14:27.250 --> 14:29.130]  Then they become privacy advocates all of a sudden.
[14:29.290 --> 14:36.670]  It's, uh, it's insane because that's, that's how you, uh, you actually, uh, find them committing all sorts of, uh, of acts of wrongdoing.
[14:36.830 --> 14:40.730]  Remember Rodney King and all kinds of videotapes of cops doing bad things.
[14:40.730 --> 14:43.770]  Uh, if they're, if they're doing that job, they should not object to this.
[14:44.150 --> 14:44.870]  And, um...
[14:44.870 --> 14:47.570]  And that's probably why they don't want it to be done.
[14:47.590 --> 14:57.810]  I mean, you just named a few people where, situations anyway, where, where cops are getting in trouble because they hurt somebody and there was videotaped to prove that they were in the wrong.
[14:58.090 --> 15:05.610]  And personally, I think that these kinds of things are very important to have because the whole thing of who watches the watchers, you know, well, they're a bit more than just watchers.
[15:05.710 --> 15:06.610]  They're enforcers as well.
[15:06.610 --> 15:08.470]  But it's, it still is true.
[15:08.650 --> 15:12.590]  You know, if, if the public doesn't hold them accountable and we're not allowed to, then...
[15:12.590 --> 15:22.210]  And in this, in this day and age where, uh, where videotape surveillance is all the rage, uh, basically, um, um, everywhere we go, we're on tape.
[15:22.390 --> 15:27.810]  But there's a story this week about, uh, new subway cars having, having all kinds of, uh, video cameras in them.
[15:27.970 --> 15:29.590]  And everyone's, everyone's looking at that.
[15:29.990 --> 15:32.730]  Everyone's, everyone's looking at that as, as a good thing.
[15:32.930 --> 15:33.610]  You know, as a good thing.
[15:33.610 --> 15:33.810]  Go ahead.
[15:34.010 --> 15:35.130]  They're video camera ready.
[15:35.370 --> 15:37.550]  And I don't know who everyone is, but I'm not.
[15:37.550 --> 15:47.910]  Well, everyone, if you look in the news, if you read the news stories about this, the public, the, uh, the authorities, the police, the, the, the MTA, um, I have not seen negative comments in any of the mainstream media.
[15:48.010 --> 15:49.310]  I know I'll hear negative comments here.
[15:49.310 --> 15:50.530]  I'll say negative comments myself.
[15:50.670 --> 15:52.810]  But if you look at the stories, it's seen as a godsend.
[15:52.810 --> 16:08.990]  Um, well, the MTA is running a trial with one, uh, one subway car or two, so one subway train, sorry, which is more than one car, of course, uh, on, I think it's on the eighth avenue line, uh, running this trial and they're not sure if it's a success or not.
[16:09.110 --> 16:10.050]  So it might be deemed a failure.
[16:10.230 --> 16:11.190]  Well, they have them on buses already.
[16:11.310 --> 16:12.530]  They have cameras everywhere on buses.
[16:12.930 --> 16:15.150]  Well, apparently it's much harder to put them on subways.
[16:15.230 --> 16:15.510]  I don't know.
[16:22.810 --> 16:23.910]  They have cameras everywhere.
[16:24.430 --> 16:38.010]  Um, basically what you wind up having, you have people that start demanding that you put more cameras up in the streets and, uh, on public transportation to protect them because somehow they get lulled into this, uh, sensation that cameras are good.
[16:38.170 --> 16:41.290]  Same thing that, uh, we see everywhere with, uh, increased security.
[16:41.450 --> 16:47.650]  And I put that in double quotes, uh, because, um, we, we somehow are convinced that it's making a difference.
[16:48.110 --> 16:52.110]  Years ago, uh, to come to this radio station, for instance, you didn't have to show any ID.
[16:52.110 --> 16:55.070]  You could just walk into a building and come upstairs and visit us.
[16:55.190 --> 17:01.590]  And now even, even, uh, we here at the station or, or some of us here at the station have the idea that you have to sign in.
[17:01.670 --> 17:05.310]  You have to be listed on some master building list to get in.
[17:05.670 --> 17:06.770]  Otherwise we're insecure.
[17:06.970 --> 17:07.930]  How is that any different?
[17:08.090 --> 17:13.790]  If you, if you, uh, look at schools today, um, ask yourself, does your school have an armed policeman in it?
[17:13.870 --> 17:14.270]  It does.
[17:14.390 --> 17:18.490]  Well, you know, back, uh, back a few years ago, that would have been seen as extremely messed up.
[17:18.610 --> 17:19.290]  Now it's the norm.
[17:19.290 --> 17:24.990]  And we somehow convinced ourselves, if we don't have that, uh, then there's something seriously wrong and we are at risk.
[17:25.110 --> 17:28.490]  So the same thing with the cameras, same thing with all kinds of tools that are introduced.
[17:29.110 --> 17:33.470]  And, um, you don't see the change happening until it's too late, until it's already, uh, occurred.
[17:33.690 --> 17:40.550]  What's interesting is there are very few studies done to, um, check if cameras actually deter crime or prevent crime or anything.
[17:40.670 --> 17:41.430]  I don't know how you would know.
[17:41.590 --> 17:46.350]  Well, you could, you could, uh, set up two similar cities, one with lots of cameras, one with relatively few cameras.
[17:46.350 --> 17:47.130]  Parallel universes.
[17:47.150 --> 17:47.970]  That's the only way I can think.
[17:48.050 --> 17:56.030]  Uh, there, there was a study done, uh, in the UK that showed that the effect of the cameras was to move the crime like a block away where the camera wasn't.
[17:56.130 --> 17:56.870]  Or into the forest.
[17:57.170 --> 18:01.090]  Wouldn't that be motivation then to put up more cameras because then you'll just keep pushing the crime out and out and out and out?
[18:01.110 --> 18:04.290]  That is, that is the response that people give that.
[18:04.370 --> 18:07.370]  Yeah, we need more cameras because obviously it's, it's pushing it away from the cameras.
[18:07.590 --> 18:08.250]  The cameras work.
[18:08.450 --> 18:15.470]  Uh, but something else I wanted to say when you were mentioning about, you know, uh, security guards and schools and all these things, how, how, you know, we keep on having all this extra security.
[18:15.550 --> 18:19.450]  So it feels, it feels like it's sort of like lowering the bar, conditioning us, that, that becomes the norm.
[18:19.550 --> 18:22.010]  And then when something bad happens, what was wrong?
[18:22.150 --> 18:24.350]  You know, what, what do we need to do to stop this from happening again?
[18:24.430 --> 18:26.170]  And then we do some increase the security.
[18:26.270 --> 18:34.830]  And before we know it, we're going to end up with video cameras everywhere, cops telling us to, uh, show them what's inside of our bags, which we already do in the subways actually already.
[18:34.830 --> 18:37.530]  You know, they, they, they've, they've won.
[18:37.730 --> 18:44.430]  They've won when people start asking and demanding for these, uh, intrusions into our lives, which is what they, they really are.
[18:44.670 --> 18:45.410]  It's, uh, it's sad.
[18:45.470 --> 18:45.770]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[18:46.030 --> 18:53.870]  I just want to say, uh, we were, we were talking a little bit earlier about, about, uh, new laws of making it illegal for people to videotape a police, uh, doing their jobs.
[18:54.190 --> 19:05.850]  Uh, uh, there's about a half dozen states that already have laws in the books that make it a felony to record the audio of someone speaking, um, without their consent or, uh, or knowledge.
[19:06.550 --> 19:12.030]  And, um, that, that's what these, uh, these, these new laws that are coming down the pike in some states are, are, are addressing.
[19:12.250 --> 19:16.330]  These are already states where it's illegal, Pennsylvania being one of them, I forget, but the other six are...
[19:16.330 --> 19:19.530]  Can we prosecute our, any of our listeners who might be recording us now without our knowledge?
[19:19.750 --> 19:23.590]  New York is not one of the six states that makes it a felony to record someone's speech.
[19:24.070 --> 19:24.390]  Uh...
[19:24.390 --> 19:26.710]  But what if they're somewhere, whether they're in a different state and they're recording us?
[19:28.170 --> 19:29.490]  I don't think you're hearing me.
[19:29.630 --> 19:32.730]  If they're in a different state, they're recording us, can we prosecute our listeners?
[19:32.910 --> 19:33.430]  I see what you're saying.
[19:33.490 --> 19:34.830]  No, because this is a broadcast medium.
[19:34.990 --> 19:38.270]  So we have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
[19:38.470 --> 19:41.110]  Well, neither do people walking on the street doing their job.
[19:41.150 --> 19:43.810]  Why would they have a reasonable expectation of privacy doing their...
[19:43.810 --> 19:46.190]  I'm just... the law sometimes is an ass.
[19:46.330 --> 19:47.270]  But what I wanted to inform our listeners...
[19:47.270 --> 19:48.170]  It's a big ass in this case.
[19:48.710 --> 19:54.390]  What I wanted to inform our listeners is, if you do want to video record police in the act...
[19:54.390 --> 19:54.510]  Yes.
[19:54.510 --> 19:59.790]  If there's any way for you to turn off the audio recording portion of that...
[19:59.790 --> 20:01.350]  With some cell phones, you can't do that.
[20:01.670 --> 20:03.450]  With a lot of video cameras, you can.
[20:03.710 --> 20:08.290]  But if you just want to protect yourself against being charged with some ridiculous law...
[20:08.290 --> 20:09.010]  How about this, Bernie?
[20:09.750 --> 20:14.750]  I'll erase the audio after I determine that they haven't done something so heinous...
[20:14.750 --> 20:20.790]  that it won't matter because the audio will be captured and it'll show them planning amongst themselves...
[20:20.790 --> 20:23.050]  to do all kinds of torture to somebody.
[20:23.050 --> 20:28.310]  And if you reveal that to the public, maybe they'll overlook the fact that you recorded their audio without their permission.
[20:28.310 --> 20:29.110]  Well, that's a good question.
[20:29.130 --> 20:32.690]  But in many cases, the cops will probably grab the recording before you get away.
[20:32.810 --> 20:35.290]  But some states, like Pennsylvania, have an interesting exception.
[20:35.550 --> 20:36.910]  There's an exception to the rule.
[20:36.910 --> 20:45.050]  If you're recording someone's audio covertly, if they are in the process of committing a felony, then you're allowed to do it.
[20:46.130 --> 20:51.010]  But, you know, if the police confiscate it, it's a whole... there's no black and white.
[20:51.170 --> 20:51.210]  Right.
[20:51.210 --> 20:54.370]  But if the police confiscate it, it doesn't matter if your audio is muted or not.
[20:54.370 --> 20:55.390]  They've still confiscated it.
[20:56.250 --> 20:58.190]  Yeah, well, they're going to confiscate it and then charge you.
[20:58.250 --> 21:01.170]  And they may edit out the parts where they were committing the felony on the audio.
[21:01.310 --> 21:07.090]  But it's... the best practice is to try to mute the audio with your recordings of police if you can.
[21:07.090 --> 21:07.790]  Yeah, I don't agree.
[21:07.790 --> 21:10.270]  Because I think you should record as much as you possibly can.
[21:10.270 --> 21:13.450]  And if they try to charge you with something later, you would simply erase the audio.
[21:13.690 --> 21:18.550]  Because otherwise, they could just take your equipment and say there's audio on there and there's no way you can prove there isn't.
[21:19.150 --> 21:21.370]  Well, I'm just giving out some advice.
[21:21.530 --> 21:26.130]  I'm not a lawyer, but I'm just saying that's what you should try to do if you want to avoid the audio law.
[21:26.290 --> 21:31.230]  Yeah, I just... I'm never in favor of following stupid laws that wind up hurting you in the end.
[21:31.230 --> 21:42.970]  I mean, yeah, I see what you're saying, but I think, you know, if people can walk around all over New York City recording things with video cameras, it's ridiculous to say, well, when a cop shows up, you've got to mute the audio, you know?
[21:43.170 --> 21:44.170]  Well, here's another way around it.
[21:44.190 --> 21:53.510]  If you tell the cop right then and there, we're recording your audio, then they have no reasonable expectation of privacy because they've been advised that it's being recorded.
[21:53.590 --> 21:54.570]  You don't need their consent.
[21:54.570 --> 21:57.850]  You just need to tell them they have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
[21:57.990 --> 21:59.070]  Their audio is being recorded.
[21:59.070 --> 22:00.810]  Okay, so what constitutes telling them?
[22:00.810 --> 22:01.970]  Just shouting at them.
[22:02.130 --> 22:17.410]  And, like, if they're in camera view and it seems evident that they can hear you because they're not that far away from the person holding the camera, and that's recorded in with the recording that you're yelling at them saying, or just politely telling them loud enough for them to hear,
[22:17.570 --> 22:19.570]  I'm recording audio and video.
[22:19.650 --> 22:21.650]  You have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
[22:21.650 --> 22:25.310]  Well, what if we just put up signs all over New York City saying, police, we are recording your audio.
[22:25.310 --> 22:26.550]  You have no expectation of privacy.
[22:26.650 --> 22:27.250]  Would that suffice?
[22:27.250 --> 22:28.590]  They can say they wouldn't see the sign.
[22:28.750 --> 22:29.510]  Oh, they can read?
[22:29.610 --> 22:30.610]  I've seen proof of this.
[22:31.430 --> 22:32.190]  No, I have.
[22:32.470 --> 22:33.550]  Some cops I've met can't, but...
[22:33.550 --> 22:35.470]  I know that, but most of them can.
[22:35.850 --> 22:37.710]  I've checked this out in my own personal time.
[22:38.530 --> 22:38.930]  Wow.
[22:39.170 --> 22:39.410]  Okay.
[22:40.110 --> 22:41.930]  A lot to think about tonight.
[22:42.050 --> 22:42.450]  Wow.
[22:42.710 --> 22:44.150]  All kinds of legal challenges.
[22:44.730 --> 22:44.870]  Okay.
[22:44.990 --> 22:51.310]  Now, we were talking about a particular challenge last week, and I know a lot of people roll their eyes right back into their heads when they hear about this.
[22:51.310 --> 23:00.390]  We spent a lot of time talking about the new voting system in New York that's taking place starting this month, actually, with primaries and for everybody in November.
[23:00.670 --> 23:09.870]  Now, the reason a lot of people are very impatient with us, specifically when we discuss this, is because New York is the last state to cut over to a different system.
[23:10.030 --> 23:17.070]  We've been relying on the huge mechanical clunking machines that have been around since Abraham Lincoln times.
[23:17.750 --> 23:21.670]  I happen to like the machines, but, you know, there are problems with them.
[23:23.290 --> 23:25.990]  As Micah said previously, there really is no paper trail.
[23:26.030 --> 23:29.770]  I know a listener last week who works with the Election Bureau said there was.
[23:29.890 --> 23:41.550]  I think what he was referring to was the actual, I don't know if it's paper tape or whatever it is that the machine actually generates and is somehow tabulated, but there is no actual ballot.
[23:41.790 --> 23:46.670]  There's no way to actually recount other than to recount the paper tape or whatever.
[23:47.070 --> 23:48.470]  That particular device is.
[23:49.070 --> 23:52.770]  So, yeah, you know, there are ways of modifying, there are ways of improving.
[23:53.250 --> 23:58.630]  But I think what New York has done and what many states have done is simply make things worse.
[23:58.850 --> 24:05.950]  Now, what I found, I did a little bit of research on what's happening on Long Island because every single county is doing this a little bit differently.
[24:06.690 --> 24:07.790]  And there's a video.
[24:07.950 --> 24:14.250]  Obviously, I can't show the video on the air, but I can play the video on the air and tell you some of what's being said here.
[24:14.670 --> 24:22.830]  And I think maybe I can voice some of the concerns that I have with the new system as it's being rolled out.
[24:23.190 --> 24:29.210]  And maybe people here, people on the phone, our listeners can call in and maybe convince me that it's not such a big deal.
[24:29.310 --> 24:35.910]  Or maybe see for the first time or second or third time that, yeah, this is a really big deal and we should be worried.
[24:35.910 --> 24:40.210]  This is a video that the Suffolk County Board of Elections has.
[24:40.310 --> 24:43.950]  It's called It's Here, A New Way to Vote in Suffolk County.
[24:43.950 --> 24:45.090]  And it's got a nice picture of a lighthouse.
[24:45.390 --> 24:46.870]  I guess that just makes you feel better.
[24:47.830 --> 24:51.010]  Let's listen to what they have to say and tear it apart.
[24:51.390 --> 24:54.890]  It's here, a new way to vote in Suffolk County.
[24:55.130 --> 24:57.250]  Make sure your vote counts.
[24:58.090 --> 25:00.990]  We are pleased to introduce you to the new voting system.
[25:01.350 --> 25:04.250]  This video will show you how easy it is to use.
[25:05.270 --> 25:10.310]  We encourage you to familiarize yourself with the simple steps to casting your paper ballot.
[25:10.910 --> 25:14.750]  Voting this way is fast and easy and assures that your vote will be counted.
[25:15.170 --> 25:17.070]  Okay, now let me just stop you right there.
[25:17.170 --> 25:19.950]  Because every time they say that, it assures that your vote will be counted.
[25:19.950 --> 25:22.950]  They're implying that your vote isn't counted in any other system.
[25:23.150 --> 25:25.270]  And that this is the only way your vote will be counted.
[25:25.330 --> 25:27.490]  I'm pretty sure my vote was counted before.
[25:27.870 --> 25:28.470]  Pretty sure.
[25:28.790 --> 25:29.690]  I mean...
[25:29.690 --> 25:30.370]  Why?
[25:30.870 --> 25:31.270]  Why?
[25:31.270 --> 25:35.290]  Well, I mean, the thing is, you can't point to any system and know that your vote was counted.
[25:35.390 --> 25:39.230]  Okay, but what is the evidence for your vote being counted on the big mechanical machine?
[25:39.350 --> 25:42.050]  Well, I could throw that right back and say, what's the evidence that's going to be counted on this?
[25:42.170 --> 25:44.610]  I mean, you can't audit your own vote.
[25:44.730 --> 25:47.590]  In fact, I even heard that New York forbids recounts.
[25:47.610 --> 25:48.630]  I don't know what that even means.
[25:48.770 --> 25:51.310]  But how do you do it?
[25:51.390 --> 25:52.550]  You tell me how it's done here.
[25:52.550 --> 25:53.590]  I'll tell you how it's done there.
[25:53.790 --> 25:53.950]  What?
[25:54.090 --> 25:55.350]  No, I think the system's no good.
[25:55.450 --> 25:58.350]  But you keep praising the mechanical machines.
[25:58.730 --> 26:00.650]  I'm saying they're no worse than this.
[26:01.310 --> 26:01.670]  Okay.
[26:02.090 --> 26:03.330]  That's a pretty low bar.
[26:03.450 --> 26:04.230]  Well, it is a low bar.
[26:04.270 --> 26:09.010]  But when you consider how much money has been spent on this so far, and how confusing and complicated it's getting...
[26:09.370 --> 26:10.590]  We're just at the beginning of the video.
[26:10.670 --> 26:12.210]  We haven't even gotten 10 seconds into it.
[26:12.490 --> 26:15.010]  Let's listen to what else is ahead of us.
[26:15.450 --> 26:16.310]  Let's get started.
[26:16.550 --> 26:16.850]  Yes.
[26:16.850 --> 26:18.910]  There are three easy steps to voting.
[26:19.990 --> 26:22.570]  One, check in at your election district.
[26:22.850 --> 26:23.370]  Okay.
[26:23.450 --> 26:25.210]  That's the same as we did before.
[26:25.430 --> 26:25.830]  Very easy.
[26:26.530 --> 26:28.810]  Two, mark your paper ballot.
[26:29.350 --> 26:29.870]  Okay.
[26:30.070 --> 26:33.150]  And we would clunk the machine and throw the little lever down.
[26:33.290 --> 26:35.470]  We don't mark a paper ballot in the old system, but okay.
[26:36.350 --> 26:39.070]  And three, must be pulling that lever to close the curtain, right?
[26:39.550 --> 26:42.970]  And three, insert your paper ballot in the tabulator.
[26:43.450 --> 26:43.830]  Huh?
[26:45.070 --> 26:46.830]  Insert my paper ballot in the tabulator.
[26:46.850 --> 26:47.090]  Okay.
[26:47.090 --> 26:49.890]  I don't know what a tabulator is, but I guess I'm going to find out.
[26:50.910 --> 26:53.330]  We'll begin with checking in at your election district.
[26:53.750 --> 26:59.350]  When you arrive at the poll site, be sure to go to the table that matches your election district or ED.
[26:59.890 --> 27:02.950]  There may be multiple election districts at your poll site.
[27:03.490 --> 27:16.610]  If you do not know your election district, please visit our website at www.suffolkvotes.com or call 631-852-4554.
[27:17.030 --> 27:17.390]  Okay.
[27:17.470 --> 27:19.270]  I should point out this is pretty much the same.
[27:19.470 --> 27:27.450]  You walk into an election district and you go to the right tables and you find where you're supposed to go, what particular machine you're supposed to go to.
[27:27.450 --> 27:31.010]  I'd just like to point out that they suggested you visit a website on that website.
[27:32.230 --> 27:32.770]  You're right.
[27:32.950 --> 27:33.930]  I'm on a website already.
[27:34.170 --> 27:34.950]  That doesn't make any sense.
[27:35.050 --> 27:35.330]  Well, okay.
[27:35.450 --> 27:35.890]  You know what?
[27:36.010 --> 27:36.950]  That's the theme.
[27:37.110 --> 27:39.370]  That's the hardest part of the whole thing is finding the right table.
[27:40.010 --> 27:40.290]  Really?
[27:40.430 --> 27:41.390]  But it's not hard.
[27:41.390 --> 27:42.110]  It's always changing.
[27:42.390 --> 27:42.570]  Yeah.
[27:42.690 --> 27:44.770]  But the thing is, you walk into the room, there's somebody there.
[27:45.210 --> 27:46.110]  Actually, you know what it is.
[27:46.170 --> 27:47.070]  And they never know how to work.
[27:47.070 --> 27:50.270]  There's a book that they can look in to tell you which table you're supposed to go to.
[27:50.350 --> 27:53.510]  And the people at the table sitting all day with the book never know how to work the book.
[27:53.570 --> 27:58.090]  If you know your election district, which is on a little piece of paper they send you in the mail, you simply go to the right table.
[27:58.110 --> 28:01.090]  If you know your name, they look up your name and then you sign a piece of paper.
[28:01.290 --> 28:03.370]  And then you go into the voting booth and you vote and you leave.
[28:03.490 --> 28:04.430]  That's what it is.
[28:04.510 --> 28:05.350]  That's how it has been.
[28:05.370 --> 28:05.950]  It's very simple.
[28:06.270 --> 28:07.390]  So far, nothing has changed.
[28:07.510 --> 28:09.290]  But let's hear what's new.
[28:09.370 --> 28:12.930]  When you arrive at your election district, give your name to the inspector.
[28:15.670 --> 28:16.950]  He's giving his name to the inspector.
[28:17.350 --> 28:19.350]  Then sign the poll roster book.
[28:20.210 --> 28:21.270]  He's signing the book now.
[28:21.690 --> 28:24.450]  Then the inspector will provide you with three items.
[28:24.730 --> 28:25.090]  A paper...
[28:25.090 --> 28:26.030]  I'm sorry.
[28:26.950 --> 28:29.050]  He's saying he's going to supply you with a paper ballot.
[28:29.230 --> 28:30.830]  We never were supplied with anything before.
[28:30.970 --> 28:33.190]  We simply were told to go ahead, but okay.
[28:33.390 --> 28:34.050]  I saw I interrupted.
[28:34.190 --> 28:35.330]  Paper ballot is the first item.
[28:35.610 --> 28:39.870]  A paper ballot, a secrecy sleeve, and an ED card.
[28:40.290 --> 28:40.930]  Whoa, okay.
[28:41.290 --> 28:42.030]  I'm sorry.
[28:42.810 --> 28:43.750]  A secrecy sleeve?
[28:43.870 --> 28:45.490]  That's the silliest thing I think I've ever heard.
[28:45.610 --> 28:46.790]  And an ED card.
[28:47.990 --> 28:51.610]  Okay, you know, that's nice that I'm getting all these things when I walk in.
[28:51.730 --> 28:53.830]  It's kind of like I'm getting gifts of various sorts.
[28:53.950 --> 28:54.910]  But really, I just want to vote.
[28:55.010 --> 28:57.650]  That's all I want to do is walk in there, vote, and leave.
[28:57.850 --> 28:59.670]  And now I've got all these items in my hand.
[28:59.750 --> 29:03.930]  I've got a paper ballot, a secrecy sleeve, and an ED card.
[29:04.190 --> 29:05.690]  Why do I need to carry three items?
[29:05.830 --> 29:07.190]  And where am I going with these three items?
[29:07.190 --> 29:07.750]  Do you get a pen?
[29:08.430 --> 29:09.510]  Oh, good question, Mike.
[29:09.630 --> 29:10.090]  Good question.
[29:10.170 --> 29:10.710]  Let's find out.
[29:11.550 --> 29:14.110]  The paper ballot is used to cast your vote.
[29:14.270 --> 29:16.710]  In case you didn't know what a paper ballot was.
[29:16.790 --> 29:16.930]  Okay.
[29:20.420 --> 29:22.480]  The ballot may have two sides.
[29:22.880 --> 29:23.780]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[29:24.700 --> 29:25.660]  Hold on a second.
[29:25.840 --> 29:28.240]  The ballot may have two sides?
[29:28.500 --> 29:29.740]  May have two sides.
[29:29.740 --> 29:30.280]  Okay.
[29:30.400 --> 29:33.360]  When I voted the four, I go into the booth.
[29:33.800 --> 29:34.480]  And you know what?
[29:34.480 --> 29:35.780]  It's all right there in front of me.
[29:36.000 --> 29:39.400]  I never had to flip something over to see if maybe there's something on the other side.
[29:39.600 --> 29:43.880]  Maybe there's something in the back of the voting machine that I have to go and throw the lever there.
[29:44.160 --> 29:45.400]  May have two sides?
[29:45.660 --> 29:46.000]  Come on.
[29:46.060 --> 29:47.820]  Where does it tell you if there are two sides?
[29:47.880 --> 29:49.540]  I need to know that when I go in.
[29:49.540 --> 29:50.800]  Are you really having trouble with this?
[29:50.880 --> 29:52.440]  Or are you just like hamming it up from the radio?
[29:52.460 --> 29:53.280]  No, I'm not hamming it up.
[29:53.380 --> 29:53.580]  Seriously.
[29:53.620 --> 29:57.360]  How many people are going to flip every piece of paper over to see if there's something on the other side?
[29:57.440 --> 29:59.280]  That's something we never had to do before.
[29:59.440 --> 30:00.480]  I think it's valid.
[30:00.620 --> 30:01.520]  May have two sides.
[30:01.800 --> 30:05.760]  They have two more chances if they only get on one side and the machine tells them, hey, hey, you forgot.
[30:05.840 --> 30:07.280]  You think the machine's going to do that?
[30:07.380 --> 30:08.620]  Well, you have a lot of faith in machinery.
[30:08.800 --> 30:08.840]  Yes.
[30:09.900 --> 30:11.580]  Let's take a listen to what else.
[30:13.720 --> 30:14.040]  Okay.
[30:14.080 --> 30:15.060]  There's something on the other side there.
[30:16.900 --> 30:19.680]  One side has the contests with candidates.
[30:23.890 --> 30:25.130]  We're looking at the candidates here.
[30:29.090 --> 30:30.810]  Actually, yeah, these are fake.
[30:30.930 --> 30:31.870]  Well, I don't know if they're fake names.
[30:32.010 --> 30:35.030]  I'm seeing James McCormick, David Goodsell, Randy Hinnick.
[30:35.190 --> 30:40.510]  I don't know who these people are, but they're various justices of the Supreme Court in the 10th Judicial District.
[30:40.510 --> 30:41.690]  I'm not sure if that's fake or not.
[30:41.790 --> 30:47.150]  But yeah, it looks pretty much like the thing you would see in a mechanical voting booth.
[30:47.150 --> 30:48.990]  But that's on the first side.
[30:49.050 --> 30:50.150]  Nothing about the second side yet.
[30:50.970 --> 30:57.310]  There may also be proposals or questions brought before the voters, in which case they will appear on the other side of the ballot.
[30:57.510 --> 31:01.030]  Now, explain to me, please, why can't it all fit on one side like it used to?
[31:01.150 --> 31:05.830]  Why do we have to flip pieces of paper over and potentially not see something?
[31:05.950 --> 31:08.850]  It just seems like they're making it really easy to miss things.
[31:09.370 --> 31:17.350]  This was something I didn't like about the old voting machines because sometimes there would be these proposals and things, but they'd be 20 rows down after the main contests.
[31:17.490 --> 31:19.870]  And so you might not know to look all the way down and look at every row.
[31:20.070 --> 31:21.270]  But that's on the same side.
[31:21.270 --> 31:27.450]  If you couldn't see it on the same side, what are the odds that you'll see it on the other side where it's not even visible unless you flip the thing over?
[31:27.450 --> 31:29.470]  I'm just, you know, I'll flip things over.
[31:29.630 --> 31:32.450]  I'll look at all different angles and see if things are there.
[31:32.510 --> 31:35.470]  I'm just saying, not everybody is going to do that.
[31:35.650 --> 31:37.550]  Think of your 86-year-old grandmother.
[31:37.550 --> 31:40.430]  Not that there's anything wrong with 86-year-old grandma.
[31:40.530 --> 31:46.130]  I'm just saying, people, sometimes, new technology is a little bit confusing.
[31:46.170 --> 31:48.970]  And it just seems like there's a potential here.
[31:49.130 --> 31:56.030]  Maybe they made an executive decision and decided they couldn't make the ballot, possibly make it any bigger than it already was, is.
[31:57.070 --> 31:59.050]  All these executive decisions, I don't know.
[31:59.190 --> 32:00.250]  Let's keep listening.
[32:02.650 --> 32:08.870]  The secrecy sleeve ensures the secrecy of your ballot by covering your ballot after you have finished voting.
[32:09.350 --> 32:10.810]  Okay, that just sounds silly.
[32:10.810 --> 32:11.310]  I'm sorry.
[32:11.490 --> 32:14.450]  But covering your ballot after you've finished voting.
[32:14.870 --> 32:16.110]  Covering it from...
[32:16.110 --> 32:16.670]  Who exactly?
[32:16.870 --> 32:19.310]  Should it already be in the tabulator, then, if you already voted?
[32:19.490 --> 32:19.970]  It's...
[32:19.970 --> 32:23.770]  These are extra steps that I'm not used to, and I'm sure it's going to confuse...
[32:23.770 --> 32:26.810]  Our New York City listeners will be pleased to know that this is only not...
[32:27.370 --> 32:28.730]  This doesn't happen in New York City.
[32:28.730 --> 32:29.970]  Oh, there are no secrecy sleeves in New York?
[32:30.010 --> 32:30.610]  It's different.
[32:30.730 --> 32:31.810]  It's a different machine or something.
[32:31.890 --> 32:32.210]  Really?
[32:32.490 --> 32:32.770]  Okay.
[32:32.990 --> 32:34.050]  We don't even have the same system.
[32:34.150 --> 32:40.690]  So if I move from New York City, you know, out to Suffolk County, I will be totally confused and not know how to...
[32:40.690 --> 32:42.050]  You're totally confused anyway.
[32:42.270 --> 32:42.650]  You know...
[32:42.650 --> 32:44.230]  I don't know how much I can do to help you.
[32:44.230 --> 32:50.190]  If we're confused, imagine how confused a lot of other people will be that don't deal with technology on a daily basis.
[32:50.450 --> 32:51.250]  Let's keep listening.
[32:53.950 --> 33:00.610]  The ED card identifies your election district and the machine that is assigned to receive your completed ballot.
[33:00.890 --> 33:03.030]  Can somebody please explain what he just said?
[33:03.070 --> 33:04.010]  Because I don't get that.
[33:04.090 --> 33:09.190]  I thought I already was in the right polling area based on what they told me at the table.
[33:09.190 --> 33:12.630]  What's this ED card that tells me what election district...
[33:12.630 --> 33:13.730]  I mean, what is that?
[33:13.970 --> 33:15.510]  It seems like I'm doing the same thing twice.
[33:15.930 --> 33:17.050]  Can anybody explain this?
[33:17.150 --> 33:23.190]  Basically, the table has the region, they give you the card, and that card is associated with that region, so...
[33:23.190 --> 33:24.770]  You're not explaining it.
[33:25.630 --> 33:27.310]  I've already gone to the right region.
[33:27.310 --> 33:34.190]  Well, you have to do it all over again, because first you have to go to the right people, and then they give you the thing so you can tell the machine that you're at the right...
[33:34.190 --> 33:36.850]  If I've already checked in, what's the point of an ED card?
[33:36.850 --> 33:38.550]  Because it's got to go through the electronic machine.
[33:39.990 --> 33:40.950]  I don't get that.
[33:41.090 --> 33:42.250]  What do you mean it has to go through the electronic...
[33:42.250 --> 33:43.530]  The ED card goes through the machine?
[33:44.290 --> 33:44.910]  What are you...
[33:44.910 --> 33:47.110]  You're trying to confuse yourself, and you're succeeding.
[33:47.150 --> 33:47.810]  No, I'm asking...
[33:47.810 --> 33:47.870]  Yes, you are.
[33:47.870 --> 33:49.530]  I am asking questions here.
[33:49.570 --> 33:51.610]  I'm asking questions, and I don't hear any answers.
[33:51.670 --> 33:52.350]  Rob, do you have an answer?
[33:52.450 --> 33:53.610]  I think I've got this.
[33:53.770 --> 33:53.890]  Okay.
[33:53.890 --> 33:55.650]  You go to the correct table for your district.
[33:55.910 --> 34:00.170]  They hand you the proper ballot and the proper ED card, so that's how you know you've got the right ballot for your district.
[34:00.690 --> 34:08.470]  Then, once you've filled it out and done your thing, you've still got the card, which makes sure you go to the right machine for your district now to get that tabulated.
[34:10.010 --> 34:10.750]  No, I'm sorry.
[34:11.990 --> 34:13.970]  I've gone to the right table, right?
[34:14.250 --> 34:15.530]  They find my name.
[34:15.630 --> 34:16.790]  They send me to the machine.
[34:17.130 --> 34:18.110]  So isn't that enough?
[34:18.210 --> 34:19.330]  Why do you need a card on top of that?
[34:19.330 --> 34:20.510]  They don't send you to the machine.
[34:20.510 --> 34:22.490]  They send you off to go fill in your boxes.
[34:23.110 --> 34:27.350]  And then you have to get yourself to the right machine, which is why you have the card.
[34:27.810 --> 34:31.790]  Have you ever had to fill out a paper ballot in the past?
[34:31.950 --> 34:32.170]  No.
[34:32.370 --> 34:33.610]  As you can see, this is new to me.
[34:33.610 --> 34:38.750]  Okay, so I have because I guess I move more often than you and the Board of Elections is kind of incompetent.
[34:38.810 --> 34:41.890]  So they sometimes do and sometimes don't transfer my registration.
[34:42.170 --> 34:44.690]  And sometimes they send me a piece of paper saying they transferred it.
[34:44.790 --> 34:46.550]  And then when I get there, it turns out they didn't.
[34:46.990 --> 34:48.070]  And what they do is you...
[34:48.070 --> 34:49.070]  Sounds real smooth to me.
[34:49.190 --> 34:49.310]  Yeah.
[34:49.350 --> 34:51.870]  And they give you a paper ballot and you fill it out and you give it back to them.
[34:51.970 --> 34:53.110]  And it's really not that hard.
[34:53.690 --> 34:54.690]  What about your ED card?
[34:54.930 --> 34:56.050]  You didn't mention an ED card.
[34:56.090 --> 34:57.130]  They didn't have the ED card.
[34:57.290 --> 34:57.490]  Right.
[34:57.630 --> 34:58.450]  Well, you see, this is the point.
[34:58.630 --> 34:59.130]  But you know what?
[34:59.150 --> 35:01.510]  If they gave me two things, I could hand them both back to them.
[35:02.350 --> 35:04.390]  What happens if I don't hand back the ED card?
[35:04.550 --> 35:05.610]  What happens if I keep the ED card?
[35:05.730 --> 35:07.090]  They get a heat ray and fire it out.
[35:08.210 --> 35:09.170]  All right, let's continue.
[35:13.600 --> 35:16.380]  That is all there is to checking in at your election district.
[35:17.400 --> 35:19.640]  Realize we've only gone through one step so far.
[35:19.720 --> 35:20.080]  There are three.
[35:20.320 --> 35:20.920]  Okay, let's continue.
[35:21.300 --> 35:24.100]  Now to step two, marking your paper ballot.
[35:24.280 --> 35:24.600]  Oh boy.
[35:24.720 --> 35:27.500]  You will need to select a privacy booth before marking your ballot.
[35:27.740 --> 35:29.780]  The privacy booths will be arranged in pairs.
[35:30.420 --> 35:33.160]  When selecting a booth, please be aware of other voters.
[35:33.160 --> 35:36.600]  Do not walk behind a voter while he or she is voting.
[35:37.540 --> 35:38.600]  Are you kidding me?
[35:38.760 --> 35:45.060]  There's a video here of some guy walking around the back of somebody where he can totally see what it is they're doing.
[35:45.620 --> 35:47.840]  There aren't little booths anymore with curtains around them.
[35:47.960 --> 35:51.860]  You're basically at a table in a room where you can make eye contact with all sorts of other people.
[35:51.940 --> 35:54.060]  They can see what you're doing, where you're looking.
[35:54.900 --> 35:58.540]  It's very different from the privacy that you used to get inside a voter booth.
[35:58.700 --> 36:00.780]  And you have to walk around the right, not around the left.
[36:00.880 --> 36:04.200]  If you walk around the left, then you're, you're basically in the booth with the person.
[36:04.440 --> 36:05.700]  I wonder how many times that's going to happen.
[36:05.940 --> 36:08.820]  Instead, walk around the other side of the booth.
[36:10.520 --> 36:12.400]  Now you are ready to review the ballot.
[36:12.660 --> 36:14.840]  The ballot may be printed on both sides.
[36:17.380 --> 36:25.120]  Okay, now we see there's this little desk area where there's a, looks like a pen attached to the wall with a string of some sort.
[36:25.340 --> 36:30.020]  This person has nicely placed their ED card on the table and their ballot on the table as well.
[36:30.240 --> 36:39.880]  And they're setting up shop there in the little tiny space that they have to do this right next to somebody else who they can easily communicate with.
[36:43.040 --> 36:47.220]  Familiarize yourself with the contests, which appear across the top row of the ballot.
[36:50.040 --> 36:51.740]  Okay, we're looking at the fake names again.
[36:57.670 --> 37:02.750]  Take special note of the number of choices you are allowed to make in each contest.
[37:03.270 --> 37:12.350]  Now, this is another extra step that we didn't have to take before because the mechanical machines simply were programmed not to let you pick more than what you're allowed to pick.
[37:12.350 --> 37:18.770]  If you don't take special note of how many names you can you can check off and you get it wrong, guess what?
[37:18.870 --> 37:21.570]  You have to start all over again or have your vote not counted.
[37:27.590 --> 37:30.930]  The parties appear down the left-hand column of the ballot.
[37:31.190 --> 37:35.310]  In some cases, a candidate may be listed in more than one party.
[37:38.240 --> 37:39.960]  Okay, we see many instances of that.
[37:41.060 --> 37:42.460]  You only vote for them once.
[37:43.160 --> 37:47.200]  To select a candidate, use the pen provided in the booth.
[37:48.980 --> 37:50.960]  Which I assume means you can't use your own pen.
[37:51.040 --> 37:51.900]  You got to use that pen.
[37:52.000 --> 37:55.740]  I'm not really sure if that's true or if you can use a pencil or whatnot.
[37:55.820 --> 38:00.720]  But what's interesting here is I said the pen was attached by a string or a cord to the table.
[38:01.100 --> 38:03.060]  That's not entirely true, at least not in this example.
[38:04.920 --> 38:06.760]  Only the pen cap is attached.
[38:07.820 --> 38:12.640]  According to this, you simply take the pen out of the pen cap, which remains securely fastened to the table.
[38:12.800 --> 38:14.380]  But the pen, you're free to take with you.
[38:15.140 --> 38:19.340]  To make your selection, fill in the oval completely next to the candidate's name.
[38:21.140 --> 38:24.620]  Okay, we see the guy filling it in very completely, very perfectly.
[38:25.040 --> 38:29.980]  Do not make any stray marks and do not use an X or check to mark your ballot.
[38:30.980 --> 38:32.920]  Yeah, don't use X, don't use checks.
[38:33.100 --> 38:37.820]  And all this silence that you're hearing right now, they're showing you all the different ways not to mark things.
[38:37.880 --> 38:41.300]  No X's, no checks, no slashes, no circles.
[38:41.920 --> 38:44.740]  Because if you do any of that, your vote's not going to count.
[38:44.740 --> 38:45.420]  You have to do it.
[38:45.480 --> 38:47.580]  You have to fill in that box exactly.
[38:47.800 --> 38:49.540]  And not too much, not too little.
[38:49.680 --> 38:50.920]  You got to get it just right.
[38:51.980 --> 38:52.420]  Unbelievable.
[38:52.760 --> 38:54.840]  Make sure you fill in the oval completely.
[38:57.440 --> 39:01.200]  Yeah, whereas before you threw a lever, now you got to get this.
[39:01.380 --> 39:10.640]  If you would like to write in a candidate whose name does not appear for a contest, print the candidate's name in the write-in box at the bottom of the column for that contest.
[39:11.340 --> 39:15.460]  Have you ever successfully cast a write-in vote on those mechanical machines?
[39:15.600 --> 39:16.960]  I've never actually done a write-in vote.
[39:17.280 --> 39:18.820]  Yeah, because no one knows how to do it.
[39:18.820 --> 39:22.320]  Well, you know, when's the last time a write-in candidate even got more than one percent of a vote?
[39:22.540 --> 39:25.020]  Well, in New York City, they don't count the write-ins.
[39:25.120 --> 39:25.680]  They don't even count them.
[39:25.820 --> 39:26.620]  It's against the law.
[39:26.740 --> 39:28.720]  You could sue them if you're a write-in candidate and win.
[39:28.860 --> 39:35.840]  But in the past, at least, I voted for candidates and my vote hasn't been counted because no one knows how to work the write-in button.
[39:36.040 --> 39:40.240]  Yeah, well, the write-in, that's an issue that I think is ongoing.
[39:40.440 --> 39:42.280]  But this goes beyond all that.
[39:44.000 --> 39:46.540]  Okay, we're looking at the write-in line at the bottom now.
[39:47.140 --> 39:48.580]  He's writing in Adam Smith.
[39:51.580 --> 39:56.340]  Your ballot is complete when you have made all of your selections for the contests and proposals.
[39:56.680 --> 40:00.540]  Be sure not to select more candidates than a contest will allow.
[40:00.820 --> 40:04.840]  If you do, your ballot will be rejected due to an overvote.
[40:05.000 --> 40:08.420]  And that's the error we mentioned last week, the overvote error.
[40:09.620 --> 40:12.600]  That's a word that people are going to have to get used to, is overvote.
[40:12.780 --> 40:14.980]  And I imagine that's going to happen quite a bit.
[40:19.340 --> 40:24.860]  After you have finished marking your ballot, please review your selections to make sure you voted the way you want.
[40:25.300 --> 40:27.620]  That is all there is to marking the ballot.
[40:29.020 --> 40:34.480]  Of course, unlike in the mechanical system, what if you decide to change your mind?
[40:34.680 --> 40:35.360]  What happens then?
[40:35.500 --> 40:36.840]  You've just marked it with a pen.
[40:37.960 --> 40:40.860]  Many of the time, I've been in the mechanical machine, and I've changed my mind.
[40:40.900 --> 40:42.680]  And I've gone back and forth a little bit.
[40:42.820 --> 40:42.960]  What?
[40:43.020 --> 40:43.580]  You've never done that?
[40:43.620 --> 40:44.580]  You've never changed your mind?
[40:44.640 --> 40:44.820]  I have.
[40:45.120 --> 40:46.140]  I'll sit there like...
[40:46.140 --> 40:48.780]  Well, if you change your mind after marking it, you have to get another ballot.
[40:48.900 --> 40:49.120]  And you know what?
[40:49.140 --> 40:50.260]  You can only do that three times.
[40:50.700 --> 40:52.240]  Yeah, three chances you get.
[40:52.460 --> 40:53.020]  Apparently, right?
[40:53.020 --> 40:53.140]  Sorry?
[40:53.440 --> 40:55.340]  Then you have to see a judge or something after the third time.
[40:55.720 --> 40:56.440]  I don't know.
[40:57.000 --> 40:57.700]  All right, let's continue.
[40:59.740 --> 41:03.060]  The final step is to insert your paper ballot in the tabulator.
[41:03.060 --> 41:07.280]  Before going to the tabulator, put your ballot in the secrecy sleeve.
[41:07.400 --> 41:07.760]  Oh, boy.
[41:07.820 --> 41:09.700]  It doesn't matter which direction it goes in.
[41:10.500 --> 41:15.280]  So, basically, you're putting your ballot into this semi-envelope thing.
[41:15.460 --> 41:21.760]  And the only purpose of that envelope is to hide what it is that you've done from people around you, I suppose.
[41:21.880 --> 41:25.520]  But you've got to insert it just right and sort of feed it in manually.
[41:26.100 --> 41:31.880]  Go to the tabulator, whose color matches your ED card, and hand your ED card to the inspector.
[41:32.920 --> 41:35.880]  So, now there's a person standing by what looks like a copying machine.
[41:35.880 --> 41:42.860]  And you hand them, what, you hand them the card, and you wind up feeding in your ballot.
[41:45.870 --> 41:53.390]  Make sure to protect the secrecy of your vote by placing the ballot in the secrecy sleeve while inserting the ballot in the tabulator.
[42:00.010 --> 42:04.150]  Next, you will insert your completed ballot into the tabulator.
[42:04.530 --> 42:08.190]  Grasp the side of your ballot, and slide it into the tabulator.
[42:11.330 --> 42:13.050]  Wow, this is going so slowly.
[42:14.050 --> 42:14.670]  There it goes.
[42:14.690 --> 42:19.110]  The machine will process your ballot and will display a message once the ballot is successfully cast.
[42:19.950 --> 42:22.010]  And look how long it takes for that to happen.
[42:24.810 --> 42:25.350]  There.
[42:26.130 --> 42:29.410]  Return the secrecy sleeve to the inspector after voting.
[42:29.990 --> 42:31.250]  What happens if I don't do that?
[42:31.330 --> 42:34.410]  They have no more secrecy at the, uh, at the bowling place.
[42:34.710 --> 42:36.410]  I'm just thinking of all the things that I've been given.
[42:36.530 --> 42:42.230]  I've been given this ED card, a secrecy sleeve, a paper ballot, um, and a pen, so...
[42:42.230 --> 42:43.510]  Oh, you stole the pen.
[42:43.610 --> 42:47.630]  Well, it didn't say I couldn't do that, but, um, I was never able to take things away before.
[42:47.830 --> 42:52.990]  And, of course, also another thing, uh, with this new system, it requires all this power that the old system didn't require.
[42:53.410 --> 42:54.050]  I mean, manual...
[42:54.730 --> 42:58.110]  And these materials, apparently, having these sleeves and these papers and...
[42:58.110 --> 43:00.990]  They don't require power, but the actual tabulator does.
[43:01.210 --> 43:02.910]  But this is all stuff that they're...
[43:02.910 --> 43:05.030]  I feel like it's almost like a waste of material.
[43:05.290 --> 43:07.150]  Well, yeah, there's a lot of extra material here.
[43:07.230 --> 43:08.570]  A lot of, uh, cost has gone into this.
[43:08.650 --> 43:09.570]  Let's, uh, conclude this.
[43:15.980 --> 43:17.060]  Okay, they're leaving now.
[43:19.080 --> 43:20.580]  You've just completed voting.
[43:20.860 --> 43:21.940]  It's that simple.
[43:22.240 --> 43:26.480]  Voting this way is fast and easy and assures that your vote will be counted.
[43:26.760 --> 43:38.440]  For more information, please visit our website at www.suffolkvotes.com or call 631-852-4554.
[43:39.380 --> 43:40.800]  Of course, there's not a whole lot you can do about it.
[43:40.860 --> 43:44.760]  That's the system, at least in Suffolk County, and that's what, uh, we're gonna have to, uh, to deal with.
[43:45.240 --> 43:46.240]  Looking forward to this, Voltaire?
[43:46.460 --> 43:50.080]  Well, it's too bad that this is, uh, SuffolkCountyVoting.com as opposed to .gov.
[43:50.740 --> 43:52.080]  Yeah, I'm not sure what that's all about.
[43:52.200 --> 43:53.660]  Because then it would be .gov at the week.
[43:53.860 --> 43:55.260]  Now, Bernie, you're in Pennsylvania.
[43:55.520 --> 43:56.780]  Is this the kind of system you've been using?
[43:57.280 --> 44:07.460]  No, they have, uh, in Philadelphia County, where I reside, um, they have, uh, a membrane, uh, voting system where it's a big, uh, it's a big, uh, uh, plastic.
[44:07.720 --> 44:21.980]  You walk up to a machine that has a, uh, a big plastic overlay and behind of that, uh, red LEDs that, uh, light up when you press the, the, press the plastic sheet behind which there's a momentary switch.
[44:21.980 --> 44:35.180]  But for, for the Suffolk County listeners who just heard that Suffolk County voting video, um, a lot of people in Suffolk County have horses and would know why you can't walk behind, uh, someone who's voting.
[44:35.320 --> 44:38.260]  Uh, just like horses, you can't, you shouldn't walk behind them because they will kick you.
[44:38.640 --> 44:41.640]  And if you walk behind a voter in Suffolk County, they might kick you.
[44:41.780 --> 44:44.940]  Is that really the strongest defense we can come up with here?
[44:44.940 --> 44:48.740]  Or I'll tell you, if someone walks behind me, I'm going to cause, uh, holy hell.
[44:48.800 --> 44:50.280]  You should relax like a horse would.
[44:50.280 --> 44:58.040]  Well, there's all kinds of, all kinds of mischief with all these devices plugged in and, and, and things that, um, I don't know, just, I can hardly wait, actually.
[44:58.320 --> 45:00.460]  There, there, there are a bunch of things they tell you not to do.
[45:00.540 --> 45:02.860]  They say, uh, make sure you mark the thing perfectly.
[45:03.200 --> 45:04.640]  Don't make any extraneous marks.
[45:04.760 --> 45:12.500]  Now, if I make an extraneous mark somewhere, is it going to tell me where the extraneous mark is or do I have to figure it out when it rejects it and start all over again?
[45:12.500 --> 45:15.280]  What if there are extraneous marks already on the ballots?
[45:15.560 --> 45:16.860]  Uh, what do you do then?
[45:17.060 --> 45:26.300]  Uh, and, and what happens if I replace the pen with a pen that either doesn't work or maybe has, um, uh, invisible ink that'll disappear or something like that.
[45:26.400 --> 45:28.080]  So then a recount will be completely useless.
[45:28.620 --> 45:30.120]  All kinds of things you can do.
[45:30.340 --> 45:31.700]  I mean, I'm not trying to cause trouble.
[45:31.860 --> 45:44.520]  Well, I am trying to cause some trouble, but you know, I, I think these are questions that should have been asked and, uh, maybe there was a way to take a system that, that, uh, was pretty solid and, and reliable and improve it so that there was, there was a paper trail rather than introducing,
[45:45.120 --> 45:46.740]  you know, there's nothing worse than bad software.
[45:46.900 --> 45:55.600]  I think we've all used bad software, uh, where, um, uh, maybe we were using a version of something and, and somebody decided they were going to upgrade it and it stops working from that point on.
[45:55.720 --> 45:56.380]  We've all been there.
[45:57.000 --> 46:10.040]  This has all the makings of that to me, where it just, uh, is confusing error messages, all kinds of conditions, ways that you have to, uh, um, uh, basically, uh, conform to the software rather than have the software, uh, follow your needs.
[46:10.380 --> 46:10.780]  Emmanuel?
[46:10.980 --> 46:11.140]  Yes.
[46:11.320 --> 46:18.580]  One other thing, uh, uh, one other point of confusion, I think, uh, listeners who just heard that Suffolk County voting, voting video is, uh, the term ED card.
[46:18.720 --> 46:29.400]  The, uh, pharmaceutical industry has, has widely promoted the term ED to, to, uh, as to define a, uh, uh, particular, a medical malady, elect, uh, elect erectile dysfunction.
[46:29.420 --> 46:33.920]  So I'm wondering if this is going to cause confusion and, and flaccid ballots in Suffolk County.
[46:33.920 --> 46:40.040]  You know, I, I'm getting the feeling, Bernie, that you're not taking this as seriously as you might, uh, with, uh, some of the defenses you're coming up with here.
[46:40.160 --> 46:48.060]  I think there are some really, uh, legitimate questions to be, uh, to be asked, uh, without coming up with, uh, scenarios of, uh, horses kicking you in erectile dysfunction.
[46:48.860 --> 46:50.500]  But, um, I don't know.
[46:50.580 --> 46:52.520]  I guess we can battle it on all different, uh, all different fronts.
[46:52.600 --> 46:52.700]  Rob?
[46:53.340 --> 46:55.540]  Yeah, I've, I've been living in Suffolk County all my life.
[46:55.680 --> 46:58.040]  And, um, you know, first of all, I was never issued my horse.
[46:58.200 --> 46:59.980]  So, uh, if, uh, Bernie, you could look into that for me.
[47:00.200 --> 47:03.560]  But, um, also I've been, I've been watching people every year.
[47:03.920 --> 47:07.840]  Um, get really confused by the machines that have been around since, uh, time immemorial.
[47:08.000 --> 47:11.440]  Okay, what are some of the confusing things that people find with, with the old mechanical machines?
[47:11.500 --> 47:12.500]  I am curious about that.
[47:12.860 --> 47:20.080]  I think with the old mechanical machines, um, I, I particularly remember an incident where somebody was angry that they couldn't pull more than one lever and they were, like, shouting about it.
[47:20.260 --> 47:22.400]  And that, that was a safety feature of the machine to prevent you from overvoting.
[47:22.560 --> 47:25.740]  If they did pull more than one level, they, they, one lever, they would have overvoted.
[47:25.840 --> 47:27.980]  Now, they can mark more than one ballot.
[47:28.060 --> 47:29.620]  But if they do that, their vote's not going to be counted.
[47:29.860 --> 47:32.400]  So, uh, wasn't that a way of protecting them?
[47:32.400 --> 47:37.300]  Yeah, but if those machines were confusing people, what are the new ones going to do?
[47:37.880 --> 47:41.780]  At least we had the safety sleeves to hide our erectile dysfunction.
[47:42.440 --> 47:45.240]  Yeah, these safety sleeves, they're intriguing to me.
[47:45.280 --> 47:46.560]  I can hardly wait to get my hands on one.
[47:46.700 --> 47:59.020]  All your questions and worries are just making me think, you know, why wasn't there just simply some sort of a competition where they picked out whatever the best performing things and let the public decide?
[47:59.020 --> 48:04.080]  Well, that's supposedly what they did years ago when, not Kevin and I, went up, and Jim, you were there.
[48:04.280 --> 48:05.440]  I don't remember helping...
[48:05.440 --> 48:05.960]  We went uptown.
[48:05.960 --> 48:11.360]  We went uptown and played with these machines and made all kinds of suggestions.
[48:11.360 --> 48:14.080]  But, of course, those suggestions aren't really counted.
[48:14.320 --> 48:16.140]  The questions we asked weren't really answered.
[48:16.720 --> 48:21.660]  Those machines seemed cheap, confusing, and not very reliable back then.
[48:21.660 --> 48:24.460]  And I fear they will be when they're put into practice.
[48:24.460 --> 48:34.260]  This is the same issue a lot of nonprofits get where they end up choosing the product, especially with software, that has the biggest marketing budget as opposed to the actual best product.
[48:34.540 --> 48:40.280]  And it's a problem that a lot of industries face when they go out to purchase privatized products.
[48:40.280 --> 48:52.140]  Well, I mean, just ask yourself, how many times are these corporate improvements that we're faced with, whether it be your banking statement having a new look based on your feedback to new features of your favorite piece of software?
[48:52.140 --> 48:56.880]  How many times does it seem like it's going in the reverse direction and it's not really helping you at all?
[48:57.420 --> 48:58.340]  This is our vote.
[48:58.460 --> 49:01.140]  This is the foundation of a democratic society.
[49:01.140 --> 49:03.440]  It's something that I think we should take very seriously.
[49:03.640 --> 49:06.100]  We're taking phone calls, 212-209-2900.
[49:06.100 --> 49:14.800]  If you have any feedback questions, if you're calling from a different state, I'm sure you're going to be very angry with us for wasting all this time on something you've probably been dealing with for many years.
[49:14.800 --> 49:17.480]  But New York is the last state to make this jump.
[49:17.720 --> 49:19.300]  I like to hear from people in different countries.
[49:19.300 --> 49:21.840]  Maybe you have a better way of doing things.
[49:22.060 --> 49:31.940]  I do think there are ways that this can be handled that cover all the concerns and are safe, for example.
[49:31.940 --> 49:32.860]  Well, okay.
[49:33.080 --> 49:52.160]  If you have something that, let's say an on-screen MetroCard looking machine, okay, because I like the MetroCard machines here in New York, and you simply place all your votes there on the screen, and then something is printed out, an actual card, an actual piece of paper is printed out showing what you voted for,
[49:52.280 --> 49:56.760]  and you approve, that piece of paper goes into a tray, and the electronic vote is cast.
[49:56.760 --> 50:00.300]  You have your paper trail, you have your electronic voting next to each other.
[50:00.700 --> 50:01.660]  What's wrong with a system like that?
[50:01.660 --> 50:04.960]  And why couldn't that have been piggybacked onto the mechanical system that existed before?
[50:05.120 --> 50:08.820]  Well, it can't be piggybacked, because the mechanical system doesn't have those kinds of features.
[50:09.100 --> 50:09.180]  Oh, no?
[50:09.360 --> 50:10.880]  Well, they could be enhanced, couldn't they?
[50:10.880 --> 50:12.860]  They can't, because no one makes the mechanical machines anymore.
[50:13.000 --> 50:14.260]  No one makes them because nobody uses them.
[50:14.280 --> 50:15.440]  That's the reason no one makes them.
[50:15.740 --> 50:17.320]  If we use them, they'd make them.
[50:17.380 --> 50:17.780]  Don't you see?
[50:18.300 --> 50:19.100]  It's a catch-22.
[50:19.360 --> 50:20.480]  That doesn't make any sense at all.
[50:20.600 --> 50:21.560]  It makes perfect sense.
[50:21.560 --> 50:24.820]  If you stop using something, if you stop buying something, then guess what?
[50:24.820 --> 50:25.860]  They're not going to make them anymore.
[50:25.860 --> 50:27.880]  If everybody still used these things, then they'd make them.
[50:28.040 --> 50:41.520]  If New York State bought the system you just described, and that very slow-talking man who just narrated the video that we just watched described that new system equally as slowly, you would interrupt him every three seconds and say it was complicated just the same.
[50:41.740 --> 50:49.460]  What's complicated about pressing buttons, indicating what you want to vote for, seeing confirmation of that on a piece of paper, hitting yes, walking away?
[50:49.460 --> 50:52.840]  It's much more complicated than filling in a bubble on a piece of paper.
[50:52.840 --> 50:54.840]  Okay, except there are so many ways to do it wrong.
[50:54.840 --> 50:57.360]  There's so many ways to press the wrong button on a screen.
[50:57.500 --> 50:59.180]  There's so many wrong ways to do anything wrong.
[50:59.340 --> 50:59.640]  Show me.
[50:59.800 --> 51:01.140]  We'll go to a MetroCard machine later.
[51:01.180 --> 51:04.020]  You can show me how many wrong ways there are to buy a $2 MetroCard.
[51:05.420 --> 51:09.620]  It's really simple when things are done right, and this just isn't done right.
[51:09.680 --> 51:10.360]  Let's take some phone calls.
[51:10.940 --> 51:11.380]  Good evening.
[51:11.500 --> 51:12.060]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:13.460 --> 51:14.120]  Yeah, hi.
[51:14.320 --> 51:14.480]  Hi.
[51:14.480 --> 51:15.000]  What's on your mind?
[51:17.340 --> 51:17.660]  Yeah.
[51:17.660 --> 51:19.960]  I went to vote last time I went to vote.
[51:21.540 --> 51:23.740]  Because I live on the Lower East Side, right?
[51:23.800 --> 51:29.100]  I went to a 10th Street school, and they didn't allow me to vote.
[51:29.540 --> 51:32.020]  They said they couldn't find my name on the thing.
[51:32.600 --> 51:35.580]  Okay, well, I don't think this system's going to fix that in any way.
[51:35.580 --> 51:40.080]  It's got nothing to do with electronic or mechanical voting.
[51:40.080 --> 51:50.140]  What they should have let you do is cast something called an affidavit ballot, where you can vote anyway, and it gets set aside, and then it's determined later if you were, in fact, allowed to vote or not.
[51:51.440 --> 51:54.100]  It sounds like a case of poor training if they didn't let you do that.
[51:54.140 --> 51:56.920]  Yeah, but again, that poor training is going to translate itself to any kind of system.
[51:57.000 --> 51:57.220]  Good evening.
[51:57.300 --> 51:57.840]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:58.380 --> 51:58.840]  Speak up.
[52:00.000 --> 52:00.320]  Hello.
[52:00.600 --> 52:00.940]  Yes, go ahead.
[52:01.740 --> 52:02.380]  Computer show.
[52:02.880 --> 52:03.960]  No, we're not the computer show.
[52:04.100 --> 52:04.760]  We're off the hook.
[52:05.040 --> 52:05.720]  Get the show right.
[52:05.720 --> 52:06.080]  Good evening.
[52:06.220 --> 52:07.200]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:08.060 --> 52:09.120]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[52:09.300 --> 52:10.380]  This is Bobson from Bulgaria.
[52:10.680 --> 52:11.740]  Hey, Bulgarian caller.
[52:11.780 --> 52:12.180]  How are you?
[52:13.400 --> 52:13.760]  All right.
[52:13.940 --> 52:16.500]  I have a couple questions about what you talked earlier today.
[52:16.700 --> 52:16.860]  Okay.
[52:17.600 --> 52:22.440]  The no trespassing thing with the cars and the GPS devices.
[52:22.680 --> 52:26.700]  What happens if you put the no trespassing bumper stickers on your car?
[52:26.860 --> 52:27.980]  Is that going to...
[52:28.700 --> 52:29.740]  Remember, these are police.
[52:29.860 --> 52:31.680]  They can do whatever they want, so...
[52:31.680 --> 52:32.180]  Good question.
[52:32.360 --> 52:34.260]  Yeah, I don't think they'd respect it.
[52:34.900 --> 52:35.880]  You know, they simply...
[52:35.880 --> 52:35.960]  Wow.
[52:36.180 --> 52:37.440]  I'm talking...
[52:37.440 --> 52:46.960]  Can you have a case about there being a no trespassing sign on the car and then somebody doing the opposite of it?
[52:47.180 --> 52:49.580]  Well, another thing I...
[52:49.580 --> 52:52.620]  When you discussed...
[52:52.620 --> 52:53.800]  Go ahead.
[53:07.080 --> 53:08.420]  I haven't even gotten to that.
[53:09.080 --> 53:12.460]  Believe me, if there are USB ports, I'm going in there with a hard drive.
[53:12.580 --> 53:15.220]  I'm going to see what's possible.
[53:15.660 --> 53:19.540]  I mean, you know, believe me, if there was a USB port on a mechanical machine, I would have done the same thing.
[53:19.540 --> 53:20.520]  I know.
[53:20.940 --> 53:36.060]  What I hear is there are devices that plug into USB ports and pretend to be keyboards or mice or whatever, and they look like a cap on the USB port.
[53:36.240 --> 53:39.600]  So it's a very small device that is...
[53:39.600 --> 53:42.880]  Can I ask you, how is voting done in Bulgaria?
[53:43.000 --> 53:44.040]  What kind of system do you use there?
[53:45.980 --> 54:03.900]  You select a piece of paper among several, many, about a dozen or maybe two dozen pieces of paper with the names printed on it, put it in an envelope, put the envelope in a big transparent box, and then somebody counts it afterwards.
[54:05.740 --> 54:07.120]  That's pretty high-tech, isn't it?
[54:07.180 --> 54:10.400]  And no one ever has any trouble placing a piece of paper in an envelope.
[54:13.720 --> 54:15.560]  Well, I haven't heard of anybody.
[54:15.680 --> 54:15.860]  All right.
[54:15.920 --> 54:19.560]  Apparently, you guys are more talented than Emmanuel believes Suffolk County voters to be.
[54:19.760 --> 54:21.980]  Listen, you give us that kind of a system.
[54:21.980 --> 54:23.180]  I think we can handle it.
[54:23.220 --> 54:26.160]  I think it would also be a lot more secure than what they're unleashing on us here.
[54:26.860 --> 54:27.720]  Listen, thanks for your call.
[54:27.780 --> 54:29.840]  We're going to try and move on and see what other people have to say.
[54:30.080 --> 54:30.580]  Good evening.
[54:30.720 --> 54:31.340]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:33.160 --> 54:33.840]  Speak up, please.
[54:33.900 --> 54:34.760]  Yes, hello.
[54:34.960 --> 54:35.600]  Hi, what's on your mind?
[54:35.980 --> 54:43.420]  Yeah, guys, I'm the election inspector that has called several times, and you seem to remember me, Emmanuel.
[54:43.680 --> 54:44.560]  You called last week, right?
[54:44.940 --> 54:45.560]  Yes, I did.
[54:45.700 --> 54:46.440]  Okay, make it fast.
[54:46.800 --> 54:49.940]  Emmanuel, you're cute and positive, but let's stay positive.
[54:50.660 --> 54:52.140]  We're going to try and do our best.
[54:52.460 --> 54:53.880]  Now, I got a question.
[54:54.140 --> 55:00.140]  There's four different voting districts in the gym I'm in, and they're telling us they don't have funding for extra pens.
[55:00.680 --> 55:05.120]  What's going to happen when somebody takes a pen from another district?
[55:05.360 --> 55:07.200]  Do they think they're going to come over to mine?
[55:07.420 --> 55:14.780]  Because what you can see is the whole privacy screen and desk being pulled away as they try and pull our pen away.
[55:15.140 --> 55:15.480]  What do you think?
[55:15.480 --> 55:21.160]  Then we'll see how honest and dishonest some of the other election inspectors are.
[55:21.340 --> 55:23.400]  Well, I'm kind of curious what kind of pens are being used.
[55:23.480 --> 55:25.320]  Is there any particular type of pen that'll work?
[55:25.500 --> 55:26.580]  They haven't told us that.
[55:26.660 --> 55:27.100]  No, no.
[55:27.200 --> 55:31.960]  They just only said that they don't have funding for extra pens, but some will be supplied in the kit.
[55:31.960 --> 55:34.740]  I just think there are so many ways things can get messed up.
[55:34.880 --> 55:36.320]  But, you know, prove me wrong.
[55:36.440 --> 55:37.620]  We'll find out.
[55:37.860 --> 55:40.320]  I wanted to call in with a tongue-in-cheek thing like that.
[55:40.580 --> 55:40.880]  All right.
[55:41.060 --> 55:41.260]  Thanks.
[55:41.400 --> 55:48.300]  Listen, what I'm going to do is I'm going to personally email 2600, and let's get an open forum going, and it's all good.
[55:48.300 --> 55:51.380]  I don't have anything I'm going to give you illegally, because that's not fair.
[55:51.600 --> 55:51.800]  No.
[55:52.000 --> 55:55.080]  You know, I'm a respectable elections inspector.
[55:55.300 --> 55:55.860]  That's it.
[55:56.000 --> 55:57.840]  And I'm 2600.
[55:57.840 --> 55:58.540]  All right.
[55:58.640 --> 56:01.420]  Well, it's good to know you're out there looking out for our interest.
[56:01.640 --> 56:03.220]  And, yeah, feed us whatever information you can.
[56:03.280 --> 56:04.560]  We'd like to hear about it.
[56:04.860 --> 56:06.020]  Let's take some more calls.
[56:06.020 --> 56:06.340]  Good evening.
[56:06.460 --> 56:07.040]  You're on Off the Hook.
[56:08.520 --> 56:09.200]  What's on your mind?
[56:09.440 --> 56:09.900]  Yeah, hold on.
[56:10.300 --> 56:25.720]  With that GPS, already there's a battle in the Supreme Court over whether, like, a police helicopter need a search warrant with a thermal heat unit, you know, to determine whether there's marijuana going in the house.
[56:25.720 --> 56:34.160]  With the GPS, like with the Pfizer Court, you know, with the National Security, listening devices, it doesn't hurt.
[56:34.460 --> 56:37.740]  Because, I mean, you don't want political police.
[56:38.060 --> 56:45.160]  I can't see a court refusing to police a warrant to attack somebody in criminal activity.
[56:45.440 --> 56:46.320]  I just can't see that.
[56:46.320 --> 56:48.280]  Yeah, they tend not to refuse those warrants.
[56:48.400 --> 56:48.840]  It's very true.
[56:48.840 --> 56:52.020]  And I'm afraid of what this is going to lead to.
[56:52.020 --> 56:56.240]  Which is precisely what makes it so worrying that they don't even want to get a warrant.
[56:56.460 --> 57:00.340]  You know, when they could get a warrant almost automatically, they think that's too much hassle.
[57:00.340 --> 57:01.560]  It's a little worrying.
[57:01.800 --> 57:02.480]  One last phone call.
[57:02.580 --> 57:02.940]  Good evening.
[57:03.160 --> 57:03.980]  You're on Off the Hook.
[57:05.240 --> 57:06.100]  Hi, Emanuel.
[57:06.420 --> 57:07.020]  How you doing?
[57:07.680 --> 57:21.660]  As a disability advocate, I, like you, testified all over upstate New York about these Help of America Vote Act machines that were supposedly put in to help the disabled vote.
[57:21.780 --> 57:23.880]  And I have a visual problem.
[57:24.220 --> 57:33.760]  And I just received this week a brochure from the Board of Elections that says, Step 4, review the screen.
[57:34.020 --> 57:38.540]  And basically what it's asking you, demanding that you do, is interact with a touchscreen.
[57:38.540 --> 57:52.580]  And in the partially sighted community that uses paper, we, for the most part, have a saying that if they can't photograph the screen, it's not going to be good enough for a disabled person to see.
[57:52.840 --> 57:58.880]  And they have right here a picture, and it looks like an empty Etch-A-Sketch screen.
[57:58.900 --> 58:01.140]  It's probably one of those cheap screens.
[58:01.320 --> 58:02.640]  Okay, we have to wrap this up, actually.
[58:03.060 --> 58:06.920]  Nobody with a visual disability, this is going to disenfranchise us.
[58:06.920 --> 58:08.620]  All right, we're going to have to see if that actually holds true.
[58:08.640 --> 58:09.140]  That's very disturbing.
[58:09.280 --> 58:12.040]  If it does, write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:12.180 --> 58:13.980]  Be back next week, probably talking about this and other issues.
[58:14.480 --> 58:16.620]  2600 meetings this Friday, all over the world.
[58:16.980 --> 58:17.980]  Have a good night.
[01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:14.640]  Whoa, that was special.
[01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:23.360]  And today is a very special day for a little young man who turned one years old today.
[01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:27.680]  One single, uno, Miles Jasper Stern.
[01:00:29.020 --> 01:00:32.940]  He's this young man that I've met out there whose name is Miles.
[01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:35.760]  And that's what, you know, his name.
[01:00:35.900 --> 01:00:37.020]  He's such a cool young man.
[01:00:37.180 --> 01:00:39.720]  But now it is 8 p.m.
[01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:42.480]  this September the 1st, 2010.
[01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:43.140]  2010.
[01:00:43.160 --> 01:00:43.420]  Right here.
[01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:43.960]  Let's go.