[00:00.580 --> 00:05.400]  Like you are the only man.
[00:07.380 --> 00:13.480]  Yeah, I did not give you nearly everything that a woman possibly can.
[00:13.720 --> 00:15.100]  Honey, you know I did.
[00:15.580 --> 00:20.200]  And each time I tell myself that I wanna think I've had enough.
[00:20.720 --> 00:25.960]  But what I'm gonna show you, baby, that a woman can be tough.
[00:25.960 --> 00:32.240]  I want you to come on, come on, come on, come on.
[00:32.580 --> 00:36.520]  And you're listening to 99.5 FM WBAI New York.
[00:36.660 --> 00:37.900]  The time is 7pm.
[00:38.120 --> 00:40.080]  Time once again for Off The Hook.
[00:45.280 --> 00:49.820]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:50.720 --> 00:55.280]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:56.020 --> 00:58.160]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:00.520 --> 01:03.560]  But the best is back the worst.
[01:04.260 --> 01:06.080]  I hope that's understood.
[01:33.620 --> 01:36.160]  And good evening, the program is Off The Hook.
[01:36.640 --> 01:38.400]  Red Hacked here, running the board tonight.
[01:39.020 --> 01:40.820]  Joined in the studio by Mike.
[01:41.000 --> 01:41.260]  Hi.
[01:41.700 --> 01:42.200]  Dot Rhett.
[01:42.420 --> 01:42.740]  Hello.
[01:42.980 --> 01:43.500]  Rob T.
[01:43.660 --> 01:44.140]  Firefly.
[01:44.340 --> 01:44.700]  Good evening.
[01:44.800 --> 01:45.280]  And Jim.
[01:45.680 --> 01:45.920]  Hello.
[01:46.400 --> 01:47.880]  And on the phone...
[01:47.880 --> 01:48.860]  Well, who do we have, Mike?
[01:49.020 --> 01:50.420]  I think we have Bernie S., maybe.
[01:50.420 --> 01:52.140]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[01:52.540 --> 01:53.300]  And we have Emmanuel.
[01:54.980 --> 01:58.740]  Hi, I'm here in Berlin, actually, at the CCC Congress.
[01:58.820 --> 01:59.320]  Can you hear me okay?
[01:59.660 --> 01:59.860]  Yeah.
[02:00.720 --> 02:01.120]  Okay, great.
[02:01.300 --> 02:03.140]  I'm talking to you on a computer, actually.
[02:03.520 --> 02:05.140]  It's a wireless connection.
[02:05.660 --> 02:12.160]  And we're here in the basement of a building where the Chaos Communication Congress takes place.
[02:12.340 --> 02:13.840]  Here with a whole crowd of people.
[02:14.180 --> 02:17.160]  And we're going to be maybe wandering around the building as well.
[02:18.580 --> 02:22.160]  But, yeah, we just actually got everything together.
[02:22.300 --> 02:23.460]  I'd like to introduce some folks.
[02:24.000 --> 02:26.110]  Did we introduce everybody back in New York and Philadelphia?
[02:26.500 --> 02:27.110]  We did.
[02:27.180 --> 02:27.610]  We have, yeah.
[02:27.800 --> 02:28.610]  But who's with you?
[02:29.930 --> 02:30.400]  Okay.
[02:30.660 --> 02:31.660]  A lot of people here.
[02:31.900 --> 02:36.050]  We've had several thousand people at the Congress so far.
[02:37.340 --> 02:41.710]  And all kinds of interesting talks and gatherings have taken place.
[02:42.060 --> 02:46.040]  It's been very snowy the last few days in Berlin, as well as in New York, I'm aware.
[02:47.180 --> 02:49.700]  Let's introduce some old friends first.
[02:50.160 --> 02:50.920]  Mitch Altman is here.
[02:51.040 --> 02:53.100]  Mitch, you just have to speak right over there where that microphone is on.
[02:53.100 --> 02:53.540]  Right over there.
[02:53.640 --> 02:54.040]  Hey, everyone.
[02:54.460 --> 02:54.980]  Hey, Mitch.
[02:55.720 --> 02:56.100]  Hey, Mitch.
[02:56.100 --> 02:56.360]  Mike.
[02:57.540 --> 02:58.880]  What's going on in Berlin?
[02:59.460 --> 03:00.880]  Or are we introducing more people?
[03:01.440 --> 03:02.720]  Yeah, well, we're introducing more people.
[03:02.860 --> 03:03.040]  All right.
[03:03.180 --> 03:08.440]  Mitch, first of all, something about what you've been doing this year at your hardware sessions.
[03:08.660 --> 03:09.920]  Oh, I've been not sleeping for one.
[03:10.020 --> 03:14.840]  But, yeah, I set up a hardware hacking area, as I always do at these events.
[03:14.840 --> 03:17.400]  And it's been, you know, it's just interesting.
[03:17.540 --> 03:23.720]  As the whole hacker scene becomes more popular, the hardware hacking area, like everything else, becomes way more popular.
[03:23.720 --> 03:24.980]  And the place I've been hopping.
[03:25.600 --> 03:29.800]  I've had people from all over the world soldering for the first time.
[03:30.280 --> 03:32.160]  And, yeah, it's been a lot of fun for me.
[03:33.820 --> 03:42.600]  And all kinds of people have been coming in, learning all sorts of things as usual, which Mitch is great at doing, people from all different parts of the world.
[03:42.600 --> 03:45.740]  So, Mitch, this conference is a little bit different because...
[03:45.740 --> 03:47.360]  Well, this one's sold out, actually.
[03:47.620 --> 03:50.320]  Last year, we had something like 5,000 people here in Berlin.
[03:51.020 --> 03:53.720]  And this year, I think the number went down to, I think, 3,500.
[03:54.020 --> 03:56.220]  And the reason for that was because it was overcrowded last year.
[03:56.400 --> 04:00.560]  They had a ticket lottery, or basically just an online ticket sale.
[04:00.940 --> 04:02.480]  It sold out in four minutes.
[04:02.660 --> 04:05.280]  They announced a day in time when the tickets would be available.
[04:05.440 --> 04:06.740]  In four minutes, they were all gone.
[04:07.080 --> 04:08.660]  That's how popular it is.
[04:08.680 --> 04:12.400]  So you're saying we should get our CCC camp tickets pretty quickly?
[04:12.600 --> 04:24.820]  I would say, yeah, if you want to go to the camp, which is taking place in Germany next summer, next August, then definitely pay attention.
[04:25.020 --> 04:28.800]  Go to ccc.de and pay attention because that may well sell out as well.
[04:28.920 --> 04:29.710]  That's interesting, though.
[04:30.820 --> 04:32.240]  That's becoming a pattern, right?
[04:32.280 --> 04:36.020]  Because I think Haar sold out also, and they just said we can't have any more people.
[04:36.320 --> 04:37.620]  Yeah, but not in four minutes.
[04:37.620 --> 04:40.740]  Well, yeah, four minutes, but it's a little different size, I think.
[04:40.850 --> 04:42.850]  I don't remember how many tickets they had for Haar.
[04:43.020 --> 04:54.780]  Well, one of the things that's great about the area that camp is going to be in, in this ex-Soviet military air base, is that it's really large.
[04:54.780 --> 05:02.140]  We can keep expanding, so many, many more people can fit there than can fit into the Congress Center here in Berlin.
[05:02.660 --> 05:03.020]  Right.
[05:05.320 --> 05:08.380]  We, let's see, we also have Tiffany Radice here.
[05:08.680 --> 05:10.760]  Actually, you have to walk all the way around the table here.
[05:11.140 --> 05:16.660]  We just set this up a couple of minutes ago, because we had some, we had too much noise in the other room.
[05:16.730 --> 05:17.730]  We had to go to a smaller room.
[05:19.520 --> 05:22.000]  So, we basically just all ran into this other room.
[05:22.090 --> 05:28.860]  We're connected on a wireless Ethernet, and over Google Talk, which we used last week as well.
[05:29.020 --> 05:30.040]  It's not costing us a penny.
[05:30.280 --> 05:33.360]  We're simply calling in and speaking over the airwaves.
[05:33.620 --> 05:34.040]  It's amazing.
[05:34.570 --> 05:35.360]  Tiffany Radice here.
[05:35.800 --> 05:39.100]  She was on one of the last flights out of Philadelphia before the big blizzard hit.
[05:39.600 --> 05:40.830]  Made it here to Berlin.
[05:41.020 --> 05:42.680]  Tiffany, you have a talk tomorrow, right?
[05:42.960 --> 05:50.400]  Yeah, I'm presenting about data havens, and it's been a great experience to be here and talking with people from WikiLeaks, OpenLeaks, and different organizations about stuff I'm presenting.
[05:51.000 --> 05:52.000]  So, it was great.
[05:52.100 --> 05:52.710]  It's a great resource.
[05:52.830 --> 05:53.420]  I'm glad to be here.
[05:57.130 --> 05:57.950]  You guys still there?
[05:58.070 --> 05:58.890]  Yeah, we're still here.
[05:59.410 --> 05:59.690]  Okay.
[06:00.090 --> 06:01.670]  I figured you might have a question or something.
[06:02.190 --> 06:04.390]  What are some of the data havens you'll be talking about?
[06:05.350 --> 06:06.330]  Iceland, for sure.
[06:06.330 --> 06:07.530]  I'm going to be talking about that.
[06:08.010 --> 06:10.230]  One in the Netherlands that they're doing some stuff with laws.
[06:10.350 --> 06:12.750]  In fact, I hope Breno talks about that a little bit while he's here today.
[06:13.590 --> 06:21.650]  And I'm talking about mostly the ME through Iceland's new laws that are going to set up a great data haven and improve the economy in Iceland.
[06:22.790 --> 06:23.190]  Wow.
[06:23.970 --> 06:30.670]  Yeah, it's really something just to see all the different kinds of people getting together here.
[06:31.230 --> 06:38.510]  And Tiffany, of course, has been on the show before talking about the Right to Repair Act and all kinds of interesting things involving the DMCA.
[06:38.770 --> 06:42.750]  Tiffany, I understand you also have opened up a new space in Washington, D.C.
[06:42.750 --> 06:43.490]  You want to tell us about that?
[06:43.830 --> 06:43.930]  Sure.
[06:44.170 --> 06:46.230]  I have a hackerspace in Northern Virginia.
[06:46.450 --> 06:47.730]  It's right outside of Washington, D.C.
[06:47.790 --> 06:49.550]  And we have close to 200 members.
[06:49.550 --> 06:50.870]  And we just opened last week.
[06:51.210 --> 06:55.150]  So we're going to be doing some car computer accessing there, shall I say.
[06:55.750 --> 06:58.290]  And we have a hardware software project going on.
[06:58.390 --> 07:00.350]  And we're doing malware reversing, in fact, as well.
[07:00.450 --> 07:04.670]  We're taking some pretty interesting pieces of malware and figuring out how they work and their origins.
[07:07.230 --> 07:07.710]  That's cool.
[07:07.790 --> 07:11.370]  What are some of the other talks that are going on up there that have gotten a good response?
[07:11.370 --> 07:14.050]  Well, it's Bicycle Mark here.
[07:14.110 --> 07:24.370]  Bicycle Mark was giving a talk yesterday about the elections in Afghanistan, which, you know, it might not seem like a hacker-related topic, but it actually very much is.
[07:24.370 --> 07:32.350]  When you observe something, when you notice things that nobody else notices, when you go into a place where people tell you it's too dangerous to go into, that's hacking.
[07:33.190 --> 07:36.650]  And Bicycle Mark did an amazing job giving that talk.
[07:36.770 --> 07:40.870]  Hopefully he'll be joining us sometime during this hour to give us some more details on that as well.
[07:42.130 --> 07:48.110]  I don't have a program in front of me, but all kinds of talks about various civil rights.
[07:48.270 --> 07:51.410]  Of course, the whole WikiLeaks thing is a hot topic here.
[07:51.970 --> 07:56.070]  All manner of souvenirs being given out, which I won't get into here.
[07:58.210 --> 08:02.210]  But there are a lot of interesting conversations taking place.
[08:02.210 --> 08:08.230]  Actually, I'd like to introduce Brenno from the Netherlands.
[08:08.530 --> 08:08.870]  Yes.
[08:09.150 --> 08:10.690]  And the microphone's down there.
[08:11.270 --> 08:12.070]  Tell us something.
[08:12.210 --> 08:18.030]  You're involved in Freedom of Information Act requests, but not the kind in the United States, the kind in Holland.
[08:18.150 --> 08:20.730]  You want to tell us something about the difference, what that's all about?
[08:20.970 --> 08:21.690]  Yeah, of course.
[08:22.430 --> 08:28.930]  What I'm doing as a journalist is that I'm working on investigative journalism.
[08:30.790 --> 08:34.090]  And to be able to do that, you need to get to the documents.
[08:34.410 --> 08:38.530]  In the United States, you've got a Freedom of Information Act for each and every department.
[08:38.530 --> 08:41.050]  In the Netherlands, we only have one law.
[08:41.230 --> 08:43.790]  And I end up litigating a lot.
[08:44.470 --> 08:50.210]  And getting sued myself by governments that try to get money from me for asking information.
[08:50.970 --> 08:54.590]  And I'm now due in court on January 12th.
[08:56.410 --> 09:01.330]  I believe something like 500 euros altogether, which is like six, seven hundred dollars.
[09:01.730 --> 09:02.490]  Really ridiculous.
[09:03.350 --> 09:04.850]  But now I'm due in court.
[09:05.110 --> 09:11.230]  And the outlook is very good, actually, that we can reverse that based on human rights grounds.
[09:11.510 --> 09:14.190]  Now, what is your position?
[09:14.530 --> 09:15.650]  You're a lawyer?
[09:16.150 --> 09:17.370]  No, I'm a journalist.
[09:17.730 --> 09:19.130]  I do investigative journalism.
[09:19.130 --> 09:26.290]  But I started studying law because hiring a lawyer for each and every case became too expensive.
[09:26.710 --> 09:29.630]  And doing it myself works better.
[09:29.630 --> 09:38.290]  And now I ended up supporting also other news organizations by helping them file their FOIA request and take it to court.
[09:39.070 --> 09:39.510]  Incredible.
[09:39.670 --> 09:41.730]  Now, where do you see this going?
[09:41.870 --> 09:46.350]  Do you think that this will result in more people being able to do this kind of thing?
[09:46.470 --> 09:50.270]  Yeah, what we did in the Netherlands is we started a project called Wobberator.
[09:50.270 --> 09:54.590]  The Dutch law is called WOB, Bet Openbaarheid van de Stuur.
[09:54.850 --> 09:59.010]  And that law basically guarantees the access to documents.
[10:00.250 --> 10:02.390]  We made a whole bunch of videos.
[10:02.670 --> 10:09.550]  And all those videos show basically how to file a FOIA request, how to take it to court, how to do administrative appeals.
[10:10.250 --> 10:11.830]  And that really works.
[10:12.850 --> 10:14.390]  And that's one thing.
[10:14.630 --> 10:16.950]  The second thing that is ongoing is on the European level.
[10:17.510 --> 10:24.210]  The Netherlands were the leading nation in discussing a treaty but did not sign.
[10:24.370 --> 10:27.230]  But that treaty would guarantee the access to documents.
[10:27.890 --> 10:32.550]  And currently we are campaigning as journalists to get that treaty signed.
[10:32.570 --> 10:37.850]  Because it's kind of stupid that if you're chairing a commission, we end up the only nation not signing it.
[10:39.150 --> 10:40.210]  Yeah, absolutely.
[10:40.930 --> 10:42.990]  How can people get more information on this?
[10:42.990 --> 10:43.710]  How can people help?
[10:44.650 --> 11:01.190]  People could help me by either emailing me, Brenno, B-R-E-N-N-O, at dewinter.com, or go to www.bigwobber, big and then W-O-B-B-E-R.N-O.
[11:01.250 --> 11:02.570]  I think you need to spell the whole thing.
[11:02.570 --> 11:03.010]  Yeah.
[11:03.150 --> 11:03.330]  Okay.
[11:03.730 --> 11:04.930]  W-O-B...
[11:06.330 --> 11:06.850]  Sorry.
[11:07.050 --> 11:07.450]  Big...
[11:07.450 --> 11:08.630]  B-I-G...
[11:08.630 --> 11:11.790]  W-O-B-B-E-R.N-L.
[11:12.330 --> 11:12.850]  Okay.
[11:13.010 --> 11:15.470]  You guys in New York have any questions for Brenno here?
[11:16.090 --> 11:17.210]  What are some of the...
[11:17.210 --> 11:20.850]  What are some of the documents in particular that you're trying to get access to?
[11:21.950 --> 11:27.210]  Well, I had a very big success on getting access to documents about the Iraqi war.
[11:27.730 --> 11:31.630]  The Netherlands was one of the last nations that started the investigation.
[11:32.210 --> 11:34.870]  But we only got the outcome and not the document.
[11:35.170 --> 11:42.490]  And after filing a bunch of FOIA requests, I even got state secrets declassified and opened.
[11:42.650 --> 11:45.210]  So that was one of the very, very big successes.
[11:45.210 --> 11:51.250]  One of the other big successes is we had a series of laptops at the border.
[11:52.210 --> 11:54.890]  And by filing FOIA requests, I could...
[11:54.890 --> 11:56.630]  That it basically brought no good.
[11:56.790 --> 12:00.790]  They couldn't bring a single child pornographer in court.
[12:01.330 --> 12:03.550]  So, basically, it was a waste of money.
[12:03.770 --> 12:06.070]  And when that was clear, they stopped the whole process.
[12:07.530 --> 12:09.330]  So, it wasn't your laptop that was seized.
[12:09.510 --> 12:12.290]  It was some other laptops that you heard about.
[12:12.770 --> 12:16.730]  Well, to be honest, if you're a journalist, I would have lost if they would have seized my laptop.
[12:16.910 --> 12:18.570]  Because that would have been a major riot.
[12:18.690 --> 12:19.170]  Ah, okay.
[12:19.330 --> 12:20.030]  That doesn't happen.
[12:20.650 --> 12:22.690]  Yeah, we can all just hope for that kind of thing.
[12:23.570 --> 12:24.930]  Well, Brenno, thanks so much.
[12:24.990 --> 12:25.830]  And thanks for the inspiration.
[12:26.070 --> 12:26.850]  And best of luck.
[12:26.970 --> 12:27.710]  We'll be following...
[12:27.710 --> 12:29.150]  July 12th is the big date for you.
[12:29.170 --> 12:30.130]  January 12th is the big date.
[12:30.130 --> 12:31.070]  I'm sorry, January 12th.
[12:31.150 --> 12:31.290]  Yeah.
[12:31.830 --> 12:32.590]  I'll keep you posted.
[12:32.950 --> 12:33.670]  Okay, alright.
[12:33.670 --> 12:44.090]  Brenno, just one of the many free spirits that have come here to this Chaos Communication Congress to basically share information and learn things and meet people.
[12:44.590 --> 12:48.910]  I understand, Kyle, you're joining us now from somewhere else at the Congress.
[12:48.910 --> 12:49.450]  Is that correct?
[12:50.530 --> 12:50.830]  Yes.
[12:51.070 --> 12:51.330]  Hi.
[12:52.150 --> 12:53.830]  Where exactly are you right now?
[12:54.470 --> 13:05.550]  Oh, I'm on the second floor of the BCC, looking out the window at the Heart of Gold, which is the rocket ship that is right out in front of the BCC here.
[13:05.750 --> 13:10.710]  And I'm just walking around, sort of looking at some of the different projects that are out.
[13:10.810 --> 13:15.090]  There's a table of kits up here with, like, different LED stuff.
[13:15.090 --> 13:19.930]  And I think there's a talk in there in the main room right now.
[13:20.230 --> 13:24.050]  They're pretty involved with the panel right now.
[13:24.230 --> 13:24.610]  Yeah.
[13:24.950 --> 13:25.770]  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[13:26.290 --> 13:28.430]  Kyle, it's 1-12 in the morning here.
[13:28.490 --> 13:30.370]  What do you mean there's a talk going on?
[13:31.510 --> 13:35.090]  Yeah, I mean, the main room is full of people.
[13:35.350 --> 13:37.830]  They've got a serious panel going on in here.
[13:37.830 --> 13:37.850]  Sorry.
[13:39.330 --> 13:40.690]  I think it's in German, though.
[13:41.850 --> 13:44.090]  It sounds like it's getting kind of animated in there.
[13:44.670 --> 13:44.970]  Wow.
[13:46.810 --> 13:47.850]  Yeah, be careful.
[13:48.350 --> 13:49.030]  Be careful, Kyle.
[13:50.370 --> 13:53.290]  I'm going to assume that applause is because they just noticed Kyle walking in.
[13:54.850 --> 13:55.290]  Yeah.
[13:55.770 --> 13:56.030]  Yeah.
[13:56.270 --> 13:57.010]  All right.
[13:57.010 --> 13:57.890]  You can sit down now, everyone.
[13:59.750 --> 14:00.190]  Yeah.
[14:00.710 --> 14:00.990]  Yeah.
[14:01.310 --> 14:02.890]  It's still going on.
[14:02.910 --> 14:04.230]  We have more people here to talk.
[14:05.010 --> 14:05.770]  Kyle can hear me.
[14:05.790 --> 14:06.470]  Please, I'm listening.
[14:06.470 --> 14:06.950]  It's great.
[14:07.630 --> 14:07.990]  Okay.
[14:08.450 --> 14:10.270]  We have more people here to talk to.
[14:10.370 --> 14:13.930]  Is there anything else that you want to share with us as far as what you're seeing right now on the second floor?
[14:15.430 --> 14:17.150]  Well, I'm just having a really good time.
[14:17.270 --> 14:18.170]  I'm seeing a lot of activity.
[14:18.830 --> 14:21.430]  A lot of people are watching different feeds.
[14:21.650 --> 14:24.190]  There's TVs and all kinds of cool stuff.
[14:24.310 --> 14:27.330]  There's been a lot of interesting talks and a lot of connections.
[14:27.330 --> 14:34.010]  You know, meeting people that I've met elsewhere and a lot of new people, people that have never been to an event like this before.
[14:34.690 --> 14:38.670]  And this is actually my only second time being in Berlin.
[14:38.670 --> 14:41.410]  So it's just really exciting and I'm really happy to be here.
[14:41.470 --> 14:44.390]  And I hope other people will try it on if they've never been.
[14:44.670 --> 14:46.250]  The CCC is a really good time.
[14:46.250 --> 14:56.550]  One thing both you and I have done this particular conference, and I have to thank you for bringing me into this, is volunteer, help out, become angels, as they call it.
[14:56.990 --> 15:07.690]  And that involves everything from walking around, making sure things are running smoothly, to guarding a door, to making sure people go in the entrance and not the exit, various things like that.
[15:08.370 --> 15:13.550]  Announcing people, all kinds of things that are essential to make a conference like this work.
[15:13.550 --> 15:16.850]  It's on volunteer efforts alone.
[15:17.610 --> 15:18.790]  And you know what?
[15:18.790 --> 15:27.070]  You feel so much more involved when you do things like that, when you become part of it and you're doing various tasks and you're part of the team.
[15:27.070 --> 15:28.630]  And it's just an incredible...
[15:28.690 --> 15:28.970]  I mean...
[15:30.110 --> 15:30.610]  Go ahead.
[15:30.610 --> 15:32.650]  It's that sense of being right next to people and working.
[15:32.870 --> 15:33.610]  Sorry to interrupt.
[15:33.790 --> 15:35.650]  But yeah, it's that camaraderie, right?
[15:36.570 --> 15:37.010]  Absolutely.
[15:37.070 --> 15:37.510]  Absolutely.
[15:38.010 --> 15:47.190]  And we get that so much at the HOPE conferences in New York, where people just come out of the woodwork and help out, whether it's moving chairs and tables or picking up trash.
[15:47.530 --> 15:52.490]  All the things that need to be done to keep something like this manageable and sustainable.
[15:53.450 --> 15:59.570]  So, if you come to a conference like this in the future, if you come to the camp in August, by all means volunteer.
[15:59.610 --> 16:03.890]  Become a part of the organization itself and you'll just feel so much more a part of things.
[16:04.030 --> 16:04.970]  And it's not like...
[16:04.970 --> 16:14.150]  I mean, we've come back to these kinds of topics again and again in that you meet people and it's a great experience and the whole volunteering thing is great.
[16:14.590 --> 16:15.970]  And it doesn't take much of your time.
[16:15.970 --> 16:19.270]  I've gone to many camps, even abroad and here.
[16:19.270 --> 16:26.690]  And, you know, you always just help out, even for a couple of hours, but it makes a world of difference to the organizers who have enough on their plates.
[16:27.430 --> 16:27.750]  So...
[16:27.750 --> 16:28.510]  Yeah, and some of...
[16:28.510 --> 16:30.190]  Hey, just to add one more thing.
[16:30.270 --> 16:32.370]  Some of those tasks, they sound trivial, like guarding a door.
[16:32.490 --> 16:39.610]  But you'd be surprised how hard it is to convince people, you know, the room's full and, you know, we can't fit anybody else in.
[16:39.730 --> 16:41.750]  And so, yeah, every role is really important.
[16:41.990 --> 16:45.050]  And, I don't know, you really benefit by being a part of the event as well.
[16:45.170 --> 16:47.130]  And it really, as you said, Mark, doesn't take a lot of time.
[16:47.130 --> 16:48.350]  So, yeah, go on.
[16:48.550 --> 16:51.490]  Last night, we had to...
[16:52.410 --> 16:55.730]  Kyle and I actually were guarding two different parts of the same entrance.
[16:56.010 --> 16:58.390]  He was making sure people entered through the entrance.
[16:58.510 --> 17:00.250]  I was making sure people exited through the exit.
[17:00.570 --> 17:06.590]  And he wouldn't believe how many people did the wrong thing, went on the wrong direction, and we just had to keep directing people.
[17:06.830 --> 17:07.630]  It was great, though.
[17:07.770 --> 17:11.430]  It was two hours of fun and meeting all sorts of people and having all kinds of laughs.
[17:12.050 --> 17:14.690]  Just like politicians, always going in the wrong direction.
[17:14.690 --> 17:16.810]  Yeah, there's a lot of that going on.
[17:17.630 --> 17:19.590]  Hey, we have Bicycle Mark here.
[17:19.690 --> 17:20.970]  Bicycle Mark has just joined us.
[17:21.470 --> 17:26.370]  Now, you gave a talk yesterday on your recent visit to Afghanistan.
[17:26.430 --> 17:28.230]  Tell us what got you there.
[17:28.490 --> 17:28.770]  Yeah.
[17:28.990 --> 17:29.670]  Hi, everybody.
[17:29.990 --> 17:31.690]  Nice to hear from all of you.
[17:31.690 --> 17:41.230]  So, I was with you guys in October, and I didn't quite get to tell you about my adventures, observing elections in Afghanistan, which had parliamentary elections in September.
[17:41.670 --> 17:53.290]  And by a series of coincidences, I ended up working there with observers, teaching them to use Ushahidi, which you may know as a crowdsourced mapping system that manages data.
[17:53.290 --> 17:55.710]  Are we supposed to know that, that acronym?
[17:56.030 --> 17:57.450]  I think the people that are... no.
[17:58.210 --> 17:58.690]  Good.
[17:59.630 --> 18:02.270]  The people that are involved in maybe development...
[18:02.270 --> 18:07.610]  ICT for development is a topic that comes up here at the Congress, and there are a lot of people interested.
[18:07.610 --> 18:16.370]  And they want to be able to use technology, be it, I don't know, low-tech, high-tech, but especially low-tech in the developing world, to improve matters.
[18:16.370 --> 18:26.230]  So, in my case, we were trying to make an election more transparent and more tangible for people observing it, be they in Afghanistan.
[18:26.230 --> 18:30.710]  But also, there's so many international people that are concerned about what happens in Afghanistan.
[18:30.710 --> 18:32.890]  They've got family members there.
[18:32.890 --> 18:35.810]  They worry about even non-family members, right?
[18:35.910 --> 18:36.470]  Fellow humans.
[18:37.630 --> 18:39.530]  While their lives are on the line.
[18:40.230 --> 18:52.710]  So, I was spending time in Afghanistan for the first time in my life for a month, and trying to teach people to use Android phones and submit reports via SMS and web interfaces.
[18:53.090 --> 18:55.550]  And in the meantime, I was trying to...
[18:55.550 --> 19:05.710]  the area of Afghanistan that I was in, in Kabul, and learn some things about the culture, the cultures, the conflicts, the fun part, the beautiful areas that I got to go to.
[19:05.950 --> 19:07.910]  And I honestly loved it.
[19:08.390 --> 19:14.550]  Do you think it's unusual that a hacker conference would be interested in the story of somebody who went to Afghanistan?
[19:15.270 --> 19:24.830]  No, it seems... I've been coming here for five years now, and I'm actually kind of glad that I could finally be a guy bringing a story from a troubled, non-troubled part of the world.
[19:25.050 --> 19:28.150]  We always have talks that are coming from different corners of the world.
[19:28.870 --> 19:31.790]  Maybe not as many as we should, but that's just my little opinion.
[19:31.930 --> 19:37.370]  But we do get people that are, well, interested in the world here, and many of them are working in the world.
[19:37.450 --> 19:43.490]  We had a little informal gathering that wasn't even on the schedule today, and that was the ICT for Development gathering.
[19:43.490 --> 19:44.250]  I thought it was in a room.
[19:44.410 --> 19:47.170]  It was a big piece of paper, and everybody just gathered around the paper.
[19:47.170 --> 20:04.090]  And we were discussing who's doing what in what part of the world, and who's interested in learning what kind of, you know, technology for what purpose in elections, even in Haiti with the cholera problem and the health risks or the health emergencies in that area.
[20:05.150 --> 20:08.670]  So, yeah, things like that do happen here at the Congress as well.
[20:09.230 --> 20:15.990]  Now, what kinds of questions have you gotten from people here after giving your talk about Afghanistan?
[20:16.930 --> 20:20.470]  Somebody just asked me if they think we made a difference for regular Afghans.
[20:20.590 --> 20:21.230]  That was a tough one.
[20:22.470 --> 20:39.270]  I said maybe not as much as, you know, they need, but that's a difficult question when you're working with technology in a place in the world where people maybe have more basic concerns sometimes and they don't feel so connected to, or the internet, or even politics sometimes.
[20:40.570 --> 20:47.750]  Other questions, I mean, they asked me basic things about how unpleasant it was, and then I, like a fool, I always, actually, it was quite pleasant.
[20:49.270 --> 20:52.990]  For all the bad things I could talk about, I saw so many good things and met so many good people.
[20:53.210 --> 20:55.450]  They kind of make me forget the bad stuff.
[20:56.310 --> 21:04.490]  Yeah, you actually suggested that we go to Kabul in Afghanistan, and I wasn't sure if you were just trying to get us killed or, you really mean it.
[21:04.530 --> 21:05.790]  You really think that's a great place to go?
[21:05.790 --> 21:08.050]  Well, I don't want to exaggerate, right?
[21:08.130 --> 21:08.770]  There are bad things.
[21:08.910 --> 21:09.390]  There are risks.
[21:10.010 --> 21:14.650]  And you do take a risk by going there more than you do perhaps walking down there in Wall Street.
[21:14.970 --> 21:17.790]  But, you know, people do get hurt there, too.
[21:18.930 --> 21:21.850]  Maybe more people, actually, as a result of what happens in Wall Street.
[21:21.930 --> 21:23.530]  But let me not be off on a tangent.
[21:25.490 --> 21:37.130]  I really thought it was beautiful, and I know some people get angry at me for saying such a thing, because people are dying in the country, but they're not necessarily dying in Kabul, and there are places where people are actually living as best they can.
[21:37.850 --> 21:42.610]  And I had the honor of being invited to even parties.
[21:42.610 --> 21:49.770]  Yes, maybe I should feel guilty, but I went to a party in Afghanistan, and there were Afghans, and it was wonderful.
[21:49.770 --> 21:59.730]  The music that I got to hear for the first time in my life, cultures that I hadn't thought about, it's as interesting and as complex as maybe you've ever heard people say.
[21:59.850 --> 22:03.790]  But I definitely learned a lot more about a country that everybody has an opinion on.
[22:03.970 --> 22:09.390]  I mean, if you're listening to this thinking I'm an imperialist, you know, okay, if that's what you think.
[22:09.790 --> 22:16.170]  A lot of people have been very critical of me for liking Afghanistan so much, because apparently we're in an era where we're not supposed to like it anymore.
[22:17.410 --> 22:18.710]  So what can I say?
[22:18.910 --> 22:20.450]  You know, people have their opinions about me now.
[22:20.910 --> 22:23.450]  But I really like it, and you can't stop me from liking it.
[22:24.310 --> 22:26.690]  Any questions for Bicycle Mark from New York?
[22:27.530 --> 22:29.610]  Hey, Mark, this is Bernie Edson, Philadelphia.
[22:30.170 --> 22:30.770]  Hi, Bernie.
[22:31.190 --> 22:31.970]  Hey, how you doing?
[22:32.450 --> 22:37.110]  What were your impressions of the election system there?
[22:38.950 --> 22:46.110]  And what's the confidence level of the people in Afghanistan in their election system and their political process in general?
[22:47.110 --> 22:49.470]  People are pretty pessimist.
[22:49.630 --> 22:53.190]  That said, a lot of people do try to vote when they can.
[22:53.370 --> 22:55.050]  There were places where the polling...
[22:56.090 --> 22:56.530]  Hello?
[22:57.990 --> 22:58.590]  Yes, Mike?
[22:58.810 --> 23:00.310]  Did we lose you or are you still there?
[23:01.250 --> 23:02.030]  No, we're still here.
[23:02.090 --> 23:02.530]  Can you hear us?
[23:02.530 --> 23:05.450]  Yeah, I can hear you just fine, but you seem to cut out for a second.
[23:05.950 --> 23:07.890]  Okay, Mark, just repeat what you just said.
[23:08.710 --> 23:15.010]  People are fairly pessimist of the government that they have at the moment, and they know that there is corruption.
[23:15.010 --> 23:16.170]  I saw a lot of demonstrations.
[23:16.350 --> 23:23.590]  A lot of times, I was in a cab on my way somewhere, and in the left or the right lane next to me, there would be people marching right alongside me.
[23:23.770 --> 23:26.450]  A lot of them were very angry, and I would ask the cab driver, what's this?
[23:26.550 --> 23:28.610]  And he would say, corruption demonstration.
[23:28.910 --> 23:30.510]  And I don't think they were demonstrating corruption.
[23:30.510 --> 23:31.550]  I think they were actually upset.
[23:32.350 --> 23:39.230]  And I got a little nervous because I couldn't read the sign, so I didn't know if it was the day they were angry at me, but he calmed me down and he said, no, that's corruption.
[23:40.350 --> 23:48.130]  My opinion of the election system is that it has a lot of flaws, and when there's a war zone where there's a war in your country, it's really hard to have an election.
[23:48.310 --> 23:49.870]  So we're asking a lot of a country.
[23:50.430 --> 23:57.930]  We're saying, have a democratic election and manage a war, or I don't even know if you can use the word manage with war, but it seems like that's what they try to do.
[23:58.990 --> 24:00.470]  I think that's very hard to negotiate.
[24:00.630 --> 24:11.770]  People were very passionate and angry about, for example, just to give you one tangible example, after you vote, you dip your finger in ink, and then, okay, this ink is supposedly extremely difficult to remove.
[24:12.010 --> 24:12.310]  Great.
[24:12.530 --> 24:15.290]  That ensures that, what, you don't vote twice, I suppose.
[24:15.470 --> 24:16.770]  And it's also nice for the photos.
[24:16.770 --> 24:17.930]  You can say, I voted today.
[24:18.910 --> 24:24.050]  So, people got very upset, and it came out in the press, because people were trying to, using bleach, using chemicals.
[24:25.130 --> 24:29.030]  WBAI, New York, 99.5 FM.
[24:30.250 --> 24:32.870]  You can actually remove it with bleach or whatever.
[24:33.030 --> 24:34.710]  This is a bad sign for our democracy.
[24:34.710 --> 24:35.710]  We are in trouble.
[24:36.730 --> 24:41.750]  And I thought to myself, look, I don't know any ink that, you know, you'll never be able to remove.
[24:41.850 --> 24:43.510]  Well, maybe you guys do around at this table.
[24:44.650 --> 24:51.470]  And so people were upset, though, at the quality of the ink, because they want the best possible tools for their election.
[24:54.470 --> 25:01.310]  So, this is an example of something that people were losing their faith in, besides the government, also the election process, the materials that they were provided.
[25:01.310 --> 25:03.790]  A lot of people were upset at the quality of it.
[25:03.970 --> 25:10.750]  Yeah, but isn't it that they tried to do that to be safe themselves, instead of, you know, like, voting twice?
[25:10.990 --> 25:16.450]  I can imagine that if you've got a blue finger, that you have a security risk that somebody might kill you for that.
[25:16.450 --> 25:17.050]  Right.
[25:17.050 --> 25:18.650]  Because it's also happening in that nation.
[25:18.910 --> 25:20.250]  So, everything has, like, three layers.
[25:20.450 --> 25:33.690]  The other side of that coin was that people were said to be erasing the ink from their fingers, out of fear that the Taliban had said, if you go back to your neighborhood, maybe the Taliban, those controlled parts of the country, your finger will be chopped off.
[25:33.790 --> 25:34.690]  And that was a fear.
[25:34.850 --> 25:38.190]  So, there were two different reasons being given for why people would do this.
[25:38.190 --> 25:43.730]  But no matter what, people were upset about the quality of the ink, either maybe because they wanted to take it off, or maybe because they wanted to...
[25:43.730 --> 25:46.630]  Hang on, we're having a great conversation here, but I'm seeing an error message from Google Mail.
[25:46.810 --> 25:47.930]  Are you guys still there in New York?
[25:48.030 --> 25:48.750]  We're still here.
[25:49.170 --> 25:49.590]  Yep, good.
[25:49.590 --> 25:49.830]  Okay.
[25:49.850 --> 25:53.670]  For some reason, Google Mail decided to disconnect, but I guess it didn't disconnect the phone call.
[25:54.110 --> 25:59.630]  But as you can see, we have spirited conversations going on here about all manner of topics.
[25:59.630 --> 26:05.110]  I just want to make sure everybody gets a chance to pipe in as to what they've been up to since coming here.
[26:05.630 --> 26:08.190]  Aesthetics is here from the Bay Area.
[26:08.470 --> 26:12.570]  He was instrumental in the Hope Conference with the whole AMD project and all that.
[26:13.010 --> 26:14.910]  How many times have you been to Germany?
[26:15.450 --> 26:16.090]  Hey, everyone.
[26:16.110 --> 26:17.890]  This is my third time here, actually.
[26:18.030 --> 26:18.650]  It's lots of fun.
[26:19.070 --> 26:22.690]  There's a lot of really cool stuff going on, and there's so many people here.
[26:22.730 --> 26:27.070]  It's actually hard to get into the talks, and I consider that a good thing, because that means so many more people are coming along.
[26:27.930 --> 26:32.530]  So what are some of the differences, maybe, between this conference and conferences in the States?
[26:34.830 --> 26:36.470]  Ooh, that's a deep question.
[26:37.050 --> 26:37.930]  There's this...
[26:37.930 --> 26:43.470]  I hate to say this, but over here, there's this really deep spirit of community that I really like.
[26:43.650 --> 26:46.450]  It's one of the strongest communities I've ever seen.
[26:48.110 --> 26:48.690]  I don't know.
[26:48.770 --> 26:48.950]  What else?
[26:49.010 --> 26:49.830]  What kind of stuff have you seen?
[26:50.070 --> 26:50.710]  Oh, gosh.
[26:51.570 --> 27:01.990]  You know, there are a lot more political discussions here as far as how hacking relates to society and history and things like that.
[27:02.050 --> 27:04.370]  I think we kind of avoid that in the States a lot.
[27:06.510 --> 27:06.950]  Okay.
[27:06.990 --> 27:10.530]  We appear to have just lost the connection to Germany.
[27:12.350 --> 27:14.310]  That Google error finally caught up with us, I guess.
[27:14.490 --> 27:16.670]  It appears to have done so.
[27:17.530 --> 27:18.930]  Any news from the States?
[27:20.290 --> 27:22.810]  Well, there are a couple of things going on, I gather.
[27:22.810 --> 27:31.130]  One of them is that a gentleman by the name of Julian Assange has announced that he's writing his autobiography.
[27:31.390 --> 27:33.430]  I don't know if you guys have heard about this.
[27:33.590 --> 27:35.410]  He's getting paid a million pounds to do it, too.
[27:35.570 --> 27:36.590]  He's getting paid a million pounds.
[27:36.590 --> 27:40.890]  He's going to write a million pound autobiography, not as in weight as in the financial recompense.
[27:41.630 --> 27:44.350]  But he apparently doesn't want to, but he has to.
[27:46.030 --> 27:47.830]  He has to to cover his legal fees.
[27:48.670 --> 27:49.270]  Are we back?
[27:49.370 --> 27:50.010]  That's where the money's going.
[27:50.330 --> 27:51.030]  Yes, you're back.
[27:51.570 --> 27:52.550]  What's the last thing you heard?
[27:52.710 --> 27:53.550]  Because we were giving...
[27:53.550 --> 27:55.030]  Aesthetics was giving quite a speech there.
[27:55.390 --> 27:56.910]  He was asking you a question.
[27:57.510 --> 27:59.130]  Yeah, he was asking you the things you had seen.
[28:00.810 --> 28:02.030]  Oh, you didn't hear any of that.
[28:02.190 --> 28:02.610]  Well, you know what?
[28:02.610 --> 28:03.530]  I didn't like my answer anyway.
[28:03.530 --> 28:04.570]  So let's just forget I said it.
[28:05.930 --> 28:07.090]  But Jorm, what do you want to say?
[28:07.430 --> 28:09.490]  So we were discussing the sense of community.
[28:09.650 --> 28:14.110]  And one of the things that creates community is having people from all kinds of different interests here.
[28:14.290 --> 28:18.610]  So on the one hand, you have really super technical discussions that are amazing.
[28:19.090 --> 28:23.430]  And on the other hand, you have a large community of artists who come in and bring a lot of ideas.
[28:24.310 --> 28:34.490]  For example, a friend of mine is working on a project she's promoting right now called All the Citizens Men, which is taking people that can look at the WikiLeaks cables and produce art out of that.
[28:34.670 --> 28:38.930]  So like writing essays or, you know, I think there's somebody working on a comic book.
[28:39.550 --> 28:43.030]  So people can come here and see talks and things that inspire them.
[28:43.270 --> 28:45.110]  And they can create really cool things.
[28:45.190 --> 28:46.630]  And there's a lot of really good collaboration.
[28:46.630 --> 28:50.450]  I'm seeing a lot of DIY, a lot of like hardware sticking around all over the place.
[28:50.950 --> 28:54.750]  I'd say the closest comparison in the United States is probably hope.
[28:55.030 --> 28:56.210]  Well, I'd like to think that.
[28:56.210 --> 28:58.430]  Yeah, that's a great compliment if that's true.
[28:59.090 --> 29:04.170]  What the Germans do with artwork and with lighting is just simply incredible.
[29:04.170 --> 29:05.490]  I don't know how they do it.
[29:05.610 --> 29:10.130]  But they have all kinds of blinking lights and various other displays.
[29:10.730 --> 29:11.530]  That's where Kyle went.
[29:11.870 --> 29:13.050]  Oh, there you are on the floor.
[29:13.270 --> 29:13.330]  Okay.
[29:14.970 --> 29:20.610]  Kyle was noticing all kinds of things as far as artwork and displays.
[29:20.770 --> 29:25.770]  Do you want to tell us about the first thing you noticed when he came in, the lighting display in the cafe area?
[29:26.350 --> 29:29.350]  Yeah, there's a big lighting display.
[29:29.450 --> 29:35.450]  It's a matrix of translucent cubes.
[29:35.590 --> 29:38.170]  I thought they were actually made out of like a silk or a fabric.
[29:38.170 --> 29:44.490]  And I sat in the lounge as is common at an event like this and looked at it.
[29:44.610 --> 29:56.130]  It's really beautiful because each cube is lit by a microcontroller that has an RGB light in it that can produce many different colors.
[29:56.130 --> 30:02.430]  And that's hooked up to a computer and they've got basically just different schemes, different animations and things.
[30:03.050 --> 30:07.470]  And it basically is like a really, really big display.
[30:07.650 --> 30:09.750]  And each box represents a pixel.
[30:10.010 --> 30:17.950]  So as I was sitting there, I realized each box is actually like a big Tupperware storage container, which I thought was brilliant.
[30:18.710 --> 30:23.910]  So they're basically using the opacity to diffuse the light from the RGB LEDs.
[30:24.330 --> 30:24.430]  Right.
[30:24.430 --> 30:24.530]  Yeah.
[30:24.790 --> 30:25.210]  Absolutely.
[30:25.550 --> 30:25.870]  Yes.
[30:26.310 --> 30:27.690]  Right, Hack, you understand it.
[30:27.730 --> 30:29.310]  Can you do it for the next conference for us, please?
[30:30.050 --> 30:30.830]  Yeah, sure.
[30:30.970 --> 30:31.950]  Give me the parts.
[30:32.770 --> 30:34.490]  Those RGB LEDs are actually kind of expensive.
[30:35.190 --> 30:41.670]  Yeah, apparently they were around 30 euro and each tub was 5 euro, I think.
[30:41.850 --> 30:41.990]  Yeah.
[30:42.430 --> 30:44.230]  And we calculated it.
[30:44.310 --> 30:45.010]  It's a lot.
[30:45.170 --> 30:46.770]  It probably cost around...
[30:46.770 --> 30:49.730]  Well, it was more than a thousand euros.
[30:50.030 --> 30:50.490]  But it was beautiful.
[30:50.490 --> 30:53.210]  5 euros is a lot per pixel, basically.
[30:53.930 --> 30:54.070]  Yeah, that's right.
[30:55.050 --> 30:56.810]  35, yeah, 35 euros per pixel.
[30:57.130 --> 30:58.650]  But that was the first thing I noticed.
[30:58.770 --> 30:59.770]  And it's absolutely gorgeous.
[30:59.990 --> 31:03.070]  And there have been all kinds of animations, people spelling really large things.
[31:03.110 --> 31:04.110]  And it's just the centerpiece.
[31:04.110 --> 31:11.890]  And it sort of just curves around and glows around the entire lounge area.
[31:12.030 --> 31:16.430]  And then behind there, people can get refreshments and whatnot and really enjoy the cafe up there.
[31:16.930 --> 31:19.990]  But there's quite a few other art installations.
[31:19.990 --> 31:26.810]  We're actually in a workshop room right now where some guys are experimenting with a RGB laser setup.
[31:27.130 --> 31:30.630]  And there's basically a touch screen or like a tablet.
[31:30.650 --> 31:35.010]  And you can choose a color and then draw whatever you want.
[31:35.010 --> 31:37.190]  And then the laser will start projecting that.
[31:37.350 --> 31:41.230]  And you can depict all three colors, including like white and yellow.
[31:42.010 --> 31:42.990]  It's really, really fun.
[31:42.990 --> 31:47.670]  If you've ever used a tablet system, you might really get a kick out of this.
[31:47.830 --> 31:51.350]  But to write with lasers is something I think is really neat.
[31:52.190 --> 31:54.350]  And that's just a handful of the things.
[31:54.470 --> 31:55.510]  I could go on and on and on.
[31:55.630 --> 31:55.850]  I don't know.
[31:55.850 --> 32:00.630]  So you trace something on the touch screen and then it writes out that pattern, basically?
[32:01.790 --> 32:02.570]  Absolutely, yeah.
[32:02.570 --> 32:03.070]  It's cool.
[32:03.070 --> 32:04.150]  It's just a tablet computer.
[32:04.710 --> 32:06.190]  There's a pen that goes with it.
[32:06.310 --> 32:13.490]  And they've got a little user interface that sort of looks like MS Paint, if you've ever used that wonderful program.
[32:14.470 --> 32:17.550]  And then that's hooked up to a project box.
[32:18.810 --> 32:20.230]  And that box has...
[32:20.230 --> 32:22.390]  That's not the Graffiti Research Labs people, is it?
[32:22.430 --> 32:23.130]  Or is it another group?
[32:24.470 --> 32:25.730]  No, it is...
[32:25.730 --> 32:26.630]  Yeah, I don't think they're here.
[32:26.750 --> 32:27.410]  I don't think Graffiti Research Labs...
[32:27.410 --> 32:30.250]  Because they had a similar project a couple years ago for writing on buildings.
[32:30.250 --> 32:34.230]  These guys from this hackerspace in Prague, it's BRM Lab.
[32:35.810 --> 32:41.690]  But yeah, they've just got a project box and some optics and all three colors of lasers.
[32:41.870 --> 32:47.230]  Apparently they were traveling over and the optics got out of alignment because it was bouncing around in their car.
[32:47.370 --> 32:50.010]  But it's working really, really well otherwise.
[32:50.410 --> 32:53.810]  So yeah, I mean, it's just really, really neat to see these kinds of projects.
[32:53.810 --> 32:55.830]  There's also a fan out there.
[32:56.010 --> 32:56.290]  Oh yeah.
[32:56.530 --> 32:57.490]  Does anybody else...
[32:57.490 --> 32:58.870]  Does anybody else want to explain the fan?
[32:59.070 --> 33:00.170]  It's really, really interesting.
[33:00.690 --> 33:05.710]  Basically looking at a fan, but the fan is somehow projecting video onto the fan.
[33:05.970 --> 33:07.090]  I'm not really sure what it's doing.
[33:07.310 --> 33:07.790]  Mitch?
[33:08.590 --> 33:13.370]  Yeah, so this fan is one of the coolest things I've seen just tech-wise in a while.
[33:13.670 --> 33:16.210]  It's cool on tech-wise and it's cool on art-wise.
[33:16.210 --> 33:17.650]  They have...
[33:17.650 --> 33:20.830]  So Lady Atta made this thing called a spoke POV.
[33:21.030 --> 33:31.990]  It's a line, a column of LEDs that are blinking in such a way that when it spins around on a spoke of a bicycle wheel, it makes a circular image.
[33:32.210 --> 33:35.190]  And you can have animated things.
[33:35.410 --> 33:42.350]  And Lady Atta's is just in red, but these people have it with red, green, and blue, which will allow you to get any color.
[33:42.350 --> 33:50.890]  So they have a full color, very high-resolution display that's just sitting on the blades of a fan as it spins around.
[33:50.910 --> 34:04.850]  And what they created for the video content is one of the most beautiful, spacey, hypnotic things that you could just stare at for a long time and leave the planet and slowly float back down.
[34:05.530 --> 34:06.670]  Just like the brain machine.
[34:06.830 --> 34:07.690]  How are they getting...
[34:07.690 --> 34:12.310]  Is it a pre-programmed sequence or is it something that they're sending to via signal?
[34:13.550 --> 34:14.430]  It's VGA.
[34:14.870 --> 34:17.790]  They're actually sending the rehash from the talks through it.
[34:17.910 --> 34:21.630]  So you could sit there and watch the talks on this spinning display.
[34:21.730 --> 34:22.210]  That's funny.
[34:22.290 --> 34:26.770]  And whenever there's a black, like a dark spot, you can see through it because it's basically a fan.
[34:27.170 --> 34:27.610]  Right.
[34:27.610 --> 34:30.350]  It's a display that you can see through if you can imagine that.
[34:31.150 --> 34:34.330]  Well, guys, you know, we could talk about all these subjects for a long, long time.
[34:34.330 --> 34:36.050]  But we only have an hour.
[34:36.410 --> 34:37.470]  We have so many other people to talk to.
[34:37.770 --> 34:38.370]  One of...
[34:38.370 --> 34:44.830]  Speaking of hope, one of the next hope's keynote speakers, Dan Kaminsky, is here with us.
[34:45.010 --> 34:47.950]  And, Dan, you've been over here before, have you not?
[34:47.950 --> 34:48.910]  I have been.
[34:49.050 --> 34:51.650]  I've been here every year since about 2004.
[34:52.230 --> 34:56.430]  There's something to be said about a city where there's a quarter million people on the street for New Year's.
[34:56.510 --> 34:58.770]  It's like nowhere else I've ever been.
[34:59.470 --> 34:59.810]  Yeah.
[35:00.030 --> 35:05.930]  You know, New Year's is great in Berlin because everybody, everybody is shooting fireworks off.
[35:06.250 --> 35:07.330]  It's not professional.
[35:07.490 --> 35:08.630]  It's just all the people...
[35:08.630 --> 35:09.910]  Let me tell you, it's not professional.
[35:11.150 --> 35:14.950]  I mean, infants and dogs, everybody gets involved.
[35:14.950 --> 35:15.550]  Yeah.
[35:16.250 --> 35:17.470]  It's something else.
[35:17.570 --> 35:21.510]  But it's a real festive occasion, and it's perfectly suited for the end of CCC.
[35:21.890 --> 35:23.490]  These aren't Roman candle fireworks.
[35:23.670 --> 35:23.810]  No.
[35:24.070 --> 35:24.310]  No.
[35:24.690 --> 35:25.610]  These are real rockets.
[35:25.690 --> 35:26.490]  These are real rockets.
[35:26.710 --> 35:27.410]  No, no, no.
[35:27.810 --> 35:33.390]  In fact, one of the big hackerspaces of the world, actually, is a place called Seabase.
[35:34.090 --> 35:37.070]  Their entire place is deemed like a crashed spaceship.
[35:37.070 --> 35:45.230]  And every year for New Year's, they let off, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of euros of serious munition-grade fireworks.
[35:45.230 --> 35:47.350]  It's right by the water.
[35:47.370 --> 35:49.450]  So you look up and you see fire.
[35:49.550 --> 35:50.870]  You look down, you see fire.
[35:51.050 --> 35:51.930]  You know, there's kind of a theme.
[35:52.070 --> 35:52.670]  It's called fire.
[35:53.670 --> 35:59.770]  And pretty much every block that you stand on, there are people just lighting things and shooting things from one building to another.
[35:59.770 --> 36:01.390]  It's quite a sight to behold.
[36:01.830 --> 36:10.530]  But, Dan, speaking to the conference itself, where there hasn't been so much in the way of fireworks and things being shot at this point...
[36:10.530 --> 36:11.510]  The night is young.
[36:11.630 --> 36:12.230]  The night is young.
[36:12.270 --> 36:12.810]  That's true.
[36:13.090 --> 36:15.170]  We're in day three, actually, of the four-day conference.
[36:15.310 --> 36:16.150]  Tomorrow is the last day.
[36:16.270 --> 36:19.010]  But are there any highlights that you'd like to focus on?
[36:19.390 --> 36:21.990]  Well, you know, CCC is really about the people.
[36:21.990 --> 36:30.290]  It's really about a collection of very smart people who are willing to just sit back, kick back, and talk about interesting things.
[36:30.570 --> 36:35.350]  I mean, you know, a common thing that's spoken about about conferences is the hallway track.
[36:35.570 --> 36:37.310]  Who are you actually going to bump into?
[36:38.530 --> 36:42.810]  One guy who's been doing some incredible work goes by the name of Matt Seuss.
[36:42.990 --> 36:44.850]  I hope I'm not mispronouncing his name.
[36:45.070 --> 36:48.090]  He's been working on something called Crypto Mini Sat.
[36:48.090 --> 36:54.650]  And this is one of the most obscure, yet ridiculously useful things in all of security right now.
[36:54.870 --> 37:03.150]  You have these algorithms that are breaking theoretically impossible-to-crack problems, and they're breaking them in seconds.
[37:03.210 --> 37:05.750]  It's become a revolution in mathematics.
[37:06.290 --> 37:13.550]  And what the thing is, is you can convert all these other problems into this domain and then throw them at these standardized tools.
[37:14.230 --> 37:18.530]  I walk into Sol 3 earlier today, you know, the third room, and there's Matt.
[37:18.790 --> 37:20.830]  I've been exchanging emails with him for months.
[37:20.850 --> 37:25.270]  He's just sitting up there talking, talking about his cool code, and, you know, get to bump into him later.
[37:25.470 --> 37:27.310]  And that's really what CCC is about.
[37:27.510 --> 37:31.570]  All sorts of really interesting people working on cool stuff, and it's no big deal.
[37:31.650 --> 37:34.790]  Walk up, have a conversation, and, you know, change the world.
[37:36.350 --> 37:37.430]  Tell us about the crowd.
[37:37.790 --> 37:38.310]  I'm sorry.
[37:38.410 --> 37:38.650]  Go ahead.
[37:38.710 --> 37:39.070]  Go ahead, Rob.
[37:39.550 --> 37:47.990]  I was wondering if you could tell us a bit about the crowd, because it seems like there's just such an insane mix of people from really all over the world converging on the spot.
[37:49.210 --> 37:49.570]  So...
[37:49.570 --> 37:57.450]  Well, you know, about, I think it was six or seven years ago, CCC went to a multilingual model.
[37:57.450 --> 37:58.310]  It used to be...
[37:58.310 --> 38:04.210]  This conference has been around for 27 years, but it hasn't always been an English-speaking conference.
[38:04.610 --> 38:08.450]  About six or seven years ago, they decided, well, we should probably have some more English.
[38:08.950 --> 38:13.050]  And I got an email out of the blue from a friend of mine who called me.
[38:13.330 --> 38:16.050]  He said, hey, we do this thing in Berlin every year.
[38:16.190 --> 38:16.790]  It's really good.
[38:16.910 --> 38:17.770]  Maybe you should come.
[38:18.050 --> 38:20.070]  I tell you, I went on a lark.
[38:20.310 --> 38:21.470]  And I've been here since.
[38:22.690 --> 38:23.030]  Yep.
[38:23.050 --> 38:23.730]  And that's how it goes.
[38:23.730 --> 38:28.130]  And hopefully we'll see more people from the States come to these things in the future.
[38:28.130 --> 38:33.950]  Again, the Chaos Communication Camp taking place in August, just outside of Berlin.
[38:34.390 --> 38:36.990]  And just go to ccc.de for more information on that.
[38:37.550 --> 38:46.010]  Now, speaking of interesting people that you just happened to run into, there's one guy here that's extremely interesting that has been involved in one of the biggest stories of the year anywhere.
[38:46.470 --> 38:55.590]  And I'm speaking of David House, who we talked about before on this program, as somebody who experienced some issues traveling.
[38:56.670 --> 39:01.930]  Well, first of all, David, tell us about those issues, and then maybe something about yourself and what you were involved in.
[39:02.450 --> 39:02.630]  Sure.
[39:02.850 --> 39:08.010]  So I've been doing legal advocacy work for Bradley Manning's defense campaign since about May.
[39:08.390 --> 39:18.930]  Bradley Manning being the person accused of leaking the 250,000 documents and the video that WikiLeaks has been renowned for.
[39:19.090 --> 39:19.470]  Right, right.
[39:19.530 --> 39:25.970]  And as part of this defense work, I was rousted by the feds coming back into the U.S.
[39:25.990 --> 39:46.530]  from Mexico last November and essentially landed at Chicago Air Airport and had my computer seized, my video camera seized, my flash drive seized, and was told by an FBI agent and a DHS agent that the reason I was being detained was because of suspicion relating to my work with the Bradley Manning Defense Network,
[39:46.690 --> 39:49.310]  which is a completely legitimate network of U.S.
[39:49.450 --> 39:55.690]  activists and lawyers who have been raising money for Manning's legal defense and have so far raised about $100,000 for Manning's legal defense.
[39:55.930 --> 40:02.150]  So this touched off a lot of issues, a lot of legal issues, and I went to the ACLU shortly thereafter.
[40:02.610 --> 40:08.290]  And I'm proud to say that after receiving a demand letter from the ACLU in mid-December, the U.S.
[40:08.390 --> 40:13.310]  government decided to return my laptop and my other belongings without any explanation whatsoever.
[40:14.010 --> 40:15.810]  So that was very interesting.
[40:15.810 --> 40:29.290]  And that computer and that video camera are now undergoing forensic analysis by specialists in the ACLU to determine, you know, what software the government may have preloaded on the laptop, if the keyboard firmware was messed with, and things of that sort.
[40:29.490 --> 40:33.450]  So as part of the legal defense, there's been a lot of harassment like this.
[40:33.590 --> 40:49.410]  I mean, in Boston, the reason that a lot of Manning supporters have not come out more vocally, the reason a lot of people that knew Manning in the past have not spoken up, you know, constant surveillance, the seizure of computers, I'm not the only one,
[40:49.690 --> 40:52.110]  has been a constant threat to individuals.
[40:52.290 --> 41:02.710]  And so people that, you know, when they hope to have a security clearance, or people that are going to university on federal grants, are now very concerned that, you know, this intimidation will extend to them.
[41:02.730 --> 41:04.850]  And this has had a chilling effect on support for Manning.
[41:04.990 --> 41:09.670]  So, you know, I've decided to kind of stand up and be more vocal in my support.
[41:10.170 --> 41:16.950]  And very recently, in late December, I was able to come forward with details that Manning's health is declining at the Quantico.
[41:17.230 --> 41:21.210]  I traveled to see him in Quantico about every two weeks and a half since December.
[41:21.970 --> 41:40.330]  And after, you know, covering these problems with his health with his lawyer, his lawyer and I both decided to go forward to various people in the media, culminating in on national television, me being able to give an interview about the extent of Manning's conditions and the extent to which U.S.
[41:40.410 --> 41:44.530]  government is covering up his conditions by saying it's not solitary confinement.
[41:44.870 --> 41:46.630]  And he is able to exercise and all these things.
[41:46.790 --> 41:49.190]  So, a lot of misinformation floating around out there.
[41:49.310 --> 41:56.430]  And one reason I'm at CCC right now, my first time in Berlin, is to meet with private donors that are interested in giving to his legal defense campaign.
[41:56.690 --> 42:00.730]  And they kind of dispel a lot of the disinformation floating around about Manning in the press right now.
[42:01.150 --> 42:04.670]  What is some of that misinformation that the press is spreading?
[42:04.670 --> 42:14.250]  So, anyone who's been keeping up with Twitter recently is probably aware of the Kevin Paulson versus Glenn Greenwald debate going on right now.
[42:14.370 --> 42:23.490]  And that debate surrounds allegations being made by Adrian Lameau about potential motives of Manning relating to allegations that, you know...
[42:26.430 --> 42:27.730]  David, are you still there?
[42:28.150 --> 42:28.930]  Yeah, can you hear me?
[42:29.110 --> 42:29.830]  All right, yeah, go ahead.
[42:30.690 --> 42:37.330]  Relating to allegations from Lameau that Manning had some kind of help in trafficking information to Assange or something like that.
[42:37.470 --> 42:41.930]  And relating to allegations that maybe Assange was pushing Manning to give him information.
[42:42.730 --> 42:46.950]  But Wired and Washington Post have refused to release the full extent of these blogs.
[42:46.950 --> 42:54.030]  So this is just one example of kind of this misinformation campaign of completely unsourced allegations and speculation floating out in the press.
[42:54.450 --> 42:58.610]  And right now you have the case where Wired is refusing to lease their primary source information.
[42:59.010 --> 43:02.190]  This is something that's caused this debate between Greenwald and Paulson.
[43:02.670 --> 43:05.030]  That's just one example of misinformation floating around.
[43:05.350 --> 43:08.770]  I myself have been the target of misinformation campaign by Adrian Lameau.
[43:08.990 --> 43:11.850]  He released a press release on PR Log about three weeks ago.
[43:11.850 --> 43:22.030]  And the title of the press release was, New York Times Hacker Calls for Arrests of Co-Conspirators in WikiLeaks Case.
[43:22.110 --> 43:24.090]  And my name was the first name mentioned in the article.
[43:24.330 --> 43:35.710]  So a lot of this bordering on libel and misinformation being spread by Lameau is having a very harmful effect on my ability to do legal defense for Bradley, and also on Bradley's image in the popular press.
[43:35.710 --> 43:37.950]  And it's something that needs to be combated with the truth.
[43:38.130 --> 43:42.050]  And I believe that by speaking the truth, that will be Manning's best defense.
[43:42.210 --> 43:42.910]  That's what I'm here to do.
[43:43.030 --> 43:45.350]  David, how did you come to know Bradley Manning?
[43:45.750 --> 43:50.110]  So Bradley Manning came to the opening of MyHackerSpace in Boston last January.
[43:50.250 --> 43:55.610]  It's Bill, the BU Information Lab and Design Space, which is a wonderful group of individuals who are just getting started.
[43:55.950 --> 43:59.250]  If you ever stop by Boston, go to Boston University Computer Science Department and look them up.
[43:59.870 --> 44:04.810]  Bradley stopped by briefly here and I met him very briefly and had a very big conversation with him.
[44:04.810 --> 44:09.270]  And that was the only time I actually saw him before news of his arrest broke.
[44:09.430 --> 44:15.970]  But I had known Adrian Lameau for about five years online, and I had met Adrian in person last March in Boston.
[44:15.970 --> 44:22.790]  And as soon as the story came out and wired, I knew exactly what Adrian's motivations most likely were.
[44:22.790 --> 44:34.150]  And I rallied around other individuals in Boston and helped create the Bradley Manning Support Network, along with individuals from California and from Europe and elsewhere in the world.
[44:34.150 --> 44:36.590]  And since then, we've been raising money for Bradley's Legal Defense.
[44:38.930 --> 44:41.930]  How can people get in touch with your group if they want to?
[44:42.990 --> 44:43.310]  Sure.
[44:43.450 --> 44:45.490]  So the Bradley Manning Support Network has a website.
[44:45.810 --> 44:49.510]  If you just Google Bradley Manning, it should be one of the top links.
[44:49.610 --> 44:52.210]  And the web address is BradleyManning.org.
[44:52.210 --> 44:57.430]  That's B-R-A-D-L-E-Y-M-A-N-N-I-G.org.
[44:57.430 --> 45:08.430]  You can go to this website and you can donate to Bradley's legal defense campaign, which that money, part of it goes to cover expense costs for Courage to Resist, which runs the finances of the network.
[45:08.630 --> 45:10.390]  And the other part of it goes directly to his lawyer.
[45:10.950 --> 45:16.390]  So far, the network has raised $100,000 for his defense, which is simply astounding.
[45:16.390 --> 45:26.830]  If you're also looking for some good primary source information to dispel the myths around Manning and kind of get to the truth of what's going on, you should check out the blog Fire Dog Lake.
[45:27.630 --> 45:39.590]  Fire Dog Lake is a wonderful website where they have journalists working around the clock doing source investigations on the claims that Paulson and Lameau have made in the press and comparing these to what is actually known.
[45:39.730 --> 45:40.450]  So this is very useful.
[45:40.450 --> 45:46.670]  And I will say, you know, being at CCC, the outpouring of support for Bradley Manning is simply amazing.
[45:46.930 --> 45:53.130]  And, you know, I've been meeting with him, and it's been a real drag on me, a lot of stress to see his health deteriorate.
[45:53.470 --> 46:08.750]  To come to the CCC and to see this outpouring of support, to see people standing up in lectures and talking about him, to see people on stage announcing that they support him, to see people handing out postcards that will be delivered to him, it's the most refreshing thing for me.
[46:08.750 --> 46:10.890]  And I'm really glad I came here and saw this community.
[46:10.910 --> 46:16.150]  And I must say that support here for Bradley Manning is strong, and that gives me courage and faith moving forward.
[46:16.410 --> 46:18.510]  David, how about support back home?
[46:18.610 --> 46:22.910]  Now, when people find out that you know Bradley Manning...
[46:25.450 --> 46:27.010]  I mean, that's a good question.
[46:27.450 --> 46:34.110]  You know, my grandfather has said some things to my family, that he's very unhappy that I support, you know, this individual.
[46:34.110 --> 46:36.970]  And, you know, even with my family, it's been kind of a problem.
[46:36.970 --> 46:38.350]  But I think that...
[46:38.990 --> 46:56.790]  I think the more people learn about who Bradley Manning really is, you know, if you believe the alleged chat logs, he says in these alleged chat logs, allegedly, alleged, alleged, that, you know, the reason he's doing this is because he wants it to be public debate and public scrutiny of the affairs of governments.
[46:56.790 --> 47:03.490]  And it's kind of this Enlightenment-era ideal, that the more information you have about your government, the better you're able to make decisions as a democracy.
[47:03.750 --> 47:11.570]  I think that if Americans understand this, this motivation, this line of thought, that's something everyone can get behind.
[47:12.330 --> 47:25.770]  So, you know, I don't really fear for my life, because I feel at heart that Americans and citizens of the world are very good people, and it just takes a little bit of coaxing and understanding for them to really grasp onto the deeper ideals at play here.
[47:26.910 --> 47:30.090]  So did you bring a laptop with you when you went to Germany this time?
[47:31.050 --> 47:32.650]  Yeah, yeah, I actually did.
[47:33.250 --> 47:35.750]  I'm not sure how I'm going to get him home.
[47:37.670 --> 47:39.230]  I'm still trying to figure that out.
[47:39.350 --> 47:43.590]  So if anyone has any good ideas, I encourage them to send me an email or to tweet me.
[47:45.450 --> 47:45.890]  All right.
[47:46.230 --> 47:47.670]  Was there anything else you wanted to add?
[47:49.010 --> 47:50.450]  No, if you guys have any questions...
[47:50.450 --> 47:53.090]  I had a suggestion for your laptop, what you can do.
[47:53.150 --> 47:54.990]  I think Kevin Mitnick once told us he does this.
[47:54.990 --> 48:03.070]  He puts an encrypted copy of his hard drive in the mail and mails it to himself just in case the laptop gets confiscated.
[48:03.270 --> 48:05.650]  Generally, the second copy makes it there.
[48:05.950 --> 48:07.510]  So there's a suggestion.
[48:08.410 --> 48:09.270]  Yeah, that's a pretty good idea.
[48:09.270 --> 48:13.130]  I was considering mailing it, you know, from a friend to a friend.
[48:13.330 --> 48:13.450]  Right.
[48:14.050 --> 48:15.310]  Two or three nodes are moved.
[48:15.510 --> 48:16.730]  So we'll have to see what happens.
[48:17.590 --> 48:23.170]  You know, considering I can lose my tail over here and actually ship it, then yeah, definitely that's my plan.
[48:24.610 --> 48:32.230]  All the data separately and erase your hard drive and just drive the customs people crazy.
[48:32.550 --> 48:38.210]  One of the problems with the past seizure is that on my laptop was a list of activists that were doing defense work for Bradley Manning.
[48:38.210 --> 48:43.470]  And there's evidence that these these individuals have been rousted and it may be because of information on my laptop.
[48:43.790 --> 48:51.790]  So, you know, it's alarming for me trying to work in this legal advocacy organization when even the legitimate activists themselves are being rousted.
[48:51.790 --> 48:58.590]  And that's my primary concern is protecting the Bradley Manning support network and the individuals who work very hard in supporting Bradley's defense campaign.
[48:59.490 --> 48:59.890]  Okay.
[49:00.430 --> 49:02.490]  Thanks, David House, for joining us.
[49:02.590 --> 49:03.530]  And a fascinating story.
[49:03.790 --> 49:12.010]  And I hope we stay in touch and have all kinds of other things to update people on because it certainly is a story that we've been following all year long.
[49:12.010 --> 49:14.770]  And I don't think it's going to end anytime soon.
[49:14.950 --> 49:18.590]  I mean, certainly Bradley Manning is facing a very, very long ordeal ahead.
[49:19.050 --> 49:21.170]  Yeah, it's great to be here and I'm in this till the end.
[49:21.790 --> 49:22.350]  All right.
[49:23.070 --> 49:25.850]  Is there anybody else here that has anything to say?
[49:26.030 --> 49:28.730]  I know that we have a whole crowd of people here in Berlin.
[49:29.870 --> 49:33.650]  Anybody else have any experiences or things they want to talk about?
[49:34.030 --> 49:45.110]  While you look around the room, I just want to let our listeners know that if any of them have anything to say, they can give us a call at 212-209-2900 and we'll try and take a couple phone calls.
[49:46.210 --> 49:46.590]  Okay.
[49:46.930 --> 49:52.210]  We have somebody coming up to the computer who's going to speak for a moment and we'll try to take some of those phone calls.
[49:53.090 --> 49:54.130]  Please introduce yourself.
[49:54.130 --> 49:54.490]  Hi.
[49:54.690 --> 49:55.910]  My name is Len Sessman.
[49:56.170 --> 50:00.130]  I'm an American expat living in Belgium.
[50:01.130 --> 50:07.030]  Currently, there's a lot of talk just now about various political and artistic things going on here.
[50:07.030 --> 50:15.610]  But there's some pretty serious infrastructure and engineering work being discussed in these talks as well.
[50:15.610 --> 50:17.990]  Two talks I'd like to point out.
[50:18.110 --> 50:34.850]  One was by Andreas of the CCC last night discussing proof validation in the processor and assembly level of programs.
[50:34.850 --> 50:47.290]  And tomorrow, Sergey Bratis from Dartmouth will be talking about composability and complexity issues with validation of protocols as formal grammars.
[50:47.450 --> 51:03.570]  And both of these are attempts to find ways to make the internet far less of a petri dish for worms and malware that does not involve locking down the infrastructure in using PPMs or any of these restrictive approaches.
[51:04.270 --> 51:25.810]  And I think that's one of the most important challenges facing our community as a whole is how to secure the infrastructure in such a way that it won't limit the open environment of the internet, but we won't wind up with the entire internet going the way of Usenet with spam malware taking over.
[51:25.810 --> 51:45.150]  So it's refreshing that there's people actually working on this, talking about it, and inspiring discussion within this group of really intelligent people from all over the world, because hopefully we'll see in a few years people go home from CCC, take these ideas home,
[51:45.230 --> 51:48.730]  and let a thousand flowers bloom.
[51:49.990 --> 51:51.350]  Well said, well said.
[51:51.770 --> 51:52.710]  I believe I see Nick Farr here.
[51:52.830 --> 51:57.850]  Nick Farr, you're one of the volunteer coordinators at CCC as well as at the Hope Conference.
[51:57.950 --> 51:59.930]  What are your impressions so far of this conference?
[52:01.010 --> 52:05.750]  Well, I see this conference from entirely the other side of the curtain.
[52:05.990 --> 52:09.450]  I mean, my concerns here are, are the rooms too full?
[52:10.270 --> 52:14.570]  Are we properly communicating with the people outside the conference?
[52:14.570 --> 52:32.350]  One of the things that the CCC tried really hard to do when they realized that the Congress started selling out is making the Congress not just here at the BCC in Berlin, but also allowing people in all the hackerspaces in Germany and people around the world to be able to participate if they can't come here.
[52:32.450 --> 52:43.530]  And just with the problems that we had with the weather and the fact that the presale limited the attendance this year, they've taken a special effort to do things called peace missions.
[52:43.750 --> 52:57.750]  So people gather in hackerspaces and clubs and cafes and all around the world thought, you know, perhaps we were going to get maybe 50 or 60, but we've had actually over 350 peace missions.
[52:58.190 --> 52:59.690]  What is a peace mission exactly?
[52:59.690 --> 53:11.310]  A peace mission is when a cafe or a hacker space decides to dedicate a certain area to stream one, two, or all three of the talks that are happening.
[53:11.690 --> 53:28.150]  And some hackerspaces also have their own little dedicated hack center where people can come and bring their computer, have a hardware hacking area like Mitch's hardware hacking area, and get together and have their own small Congress in a way right at the same time that people are having a very big Congress here in Berlin.
[53:28.150 --> 53:31.130]  It's amazing because actually people were encouraged to stay away.
[53:31.370 --> 53:32.950]  Tickets sold out in four minutes.
[53:33.430 --> 53:36.210]  And there are less people here this year than last year.
[53:36.350 --> 53:41.210]  It's kind of the opposite of what we see in the States, where it's always trying to get more and trying to get things more crowded.
[53:42.070 --> 53:45.010]  So, yeah, it's fascinating.
[53:45.210 --> 53:46.370]  It's a learning experience.
[53:47.990 --> 53:50.490]  Mike, back there in New York, do you want to take a phone call?
[53:50.710 --> 53:51.790]  Yeah, let's try it.
[53:51.850 --> 53:55.630]  We have just a few on the line and just a minute or so to talk to them.
[53:56.530 --> 53:57.250]  You're on the air.
[53:57.430 --> 53:57.570]  Hello?
[53:57.950 --> 53:58.370]  Here we go.
[53:59.810 --> 54:00.190]  Hello?
[54:00.290 --> 54:00.890]  On the air, go ahead.
[54:01.030 --> 54:01.390]  Oh, yes.
[54:02.290 --> 54:03.430]  I try to use a...
[54:03.430 --> 54:04.090]  Oh, dear.
[54:05.010 --> 54:06.530]  How does Rebel always get through?
[54:06.650 --> 54:07.130]  It's incredible.
[54:07.230 --> 54:08.070]  For years now...
[54:08.070 --> 54:10.670]  Because he's making all the phone calls at the same time.
[54:10.990 --> 54:12.970]  And people in Europe know all about Rebel, too.
[54:13.090 --> 54:14.810]  Everyone around the world knows about Rebel.
[54:14.990 --> 54:15.930]  I think that's the goal.
[54:16.110 --> 54:19.410]  If you're not Rebel, our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[54:20.830 --> 54:24.890]  If you are Rebel, just dial your own phone number and that's the number you should be calling.
[54:25.110 --> 54:26.030]  We don't know his phone number.
[54:26.130 --> 54:26.790]  We can't call him.
[54:27.150 --> 54:28.530]  That's why we're telling him to call it.
[54:28.770 --> 54:28.930]  Alright.
[54:28.970 --> 54:29.690]  Let's take another one.
[54:30.290 --> 54:31.250]  Let's try this one.
[54:32.370 --> 54:33.310]  Good evening, sir.
[54:33.590 --> 54:33.770]  Let's see.
[54:34.130 --> 54:36.690]  You know, Rebel, you're not fooling anybody but yourself.
[54:37.150 --> 54:38.110]  Please, let's keep going.
[54:40.430 --> 54:43.090]  There's one call left, but it could just be Rebel.
[54:43.690 --> 54:44.410]  You know what?
[54:44.410 --> 54:44.430]  You know what?
[54:44.830 --> 54:46.290]  No, I think it's not.
[54:46.350 --> 54:46.550]  Alright?
[54:46.610 --> 54:47.810]  I'm gonna give that person a chance.
[54:47.930 --> 54:48.210]  Come on.
[54:48.730 --> 54:48.990]  Alright.
[54:49.270 --> 54:50.030]  You're on the air.
[54:50.550 --> 54:50.890]  Yes.
[54:51.170 --> 54:51.910]  I know that.
[54:52.510 --> 54:52.910]  Alright.
[54:53.070 --> 54:56.190]  So, apparently no one who's not Rebel wants to talk to us.
[54:56.250 --> 54:58.710]  Maybe they're all stuck inside with the snow.
[54:58.770 --> 55:01.570]  We have all these amazing people here in Berlin.
[55:01.810 --> 55:03.990]  All aspects of society.
[55:04.070 --> 55:06.030]  You're telling me all the calls are gonna be from one person.
[55:06.110 --> 55:06.810]  They seem to be.
[55:06.810 --> 55:07.230]  We have four calls and we're scared.
[55:07.230 --> 55:08.330]  Alright, let's try this one.
[55:08.670 --> 55:09.070]  Hello?
[55:10.910 --> 55:11.310]  Hello?
[55:11.310 --> 55:11.950]  You're on the air.
[55:13.110 --> 55:13.270]  Yes.
[55:13.370 --> 55:26.150]  I wanted to call regarding the denial of service attacks, but not the ones that were a response to people that took WikiLeaks off, either monetarily or on their servers.
[55:26.750 --> 55:32.710]  Before any of this happened, WikiLeaks was a victim of a massive DOS attack.
[55:33.910 --> 55:41.070]  And, you know, I think Emmanuel was a little naive about it in a couple of last shows, saying he thought it was just some disaffected people.
[55:41.230 --> 55:47.890]  I think, if you look at the intensity and how massively distributed this attack was, I think it can only lead you to one conclusion.
[55:49.450 --> 55:56.630]  I think the thing about a DOS attack is it's not actually, like, you don't require all that much organization to get one going.
[55:56.770 --> 56:03.090]  You just require the right software and access to the right subverted computers and botnets and things.
[56:03.370 --> 56:10.130]  And, you know, there are DOS attacks where people are, where the majority of people are active participants with things like low orbit ion cannon.
[56:10.130 --> 56:19.330]  But there are also DOS attacks where there's a relatively small amount of people behind it and just a lot of, a lot of taken over computers doing the dirty work.
[56:19.670 --> 56:24.850]  Well, if you look at the Twitter feed before, they said they were getting billions of hits a second.
[56:25.030 --> 56:28.010]  You don't think that the government could have installed a botnet?
[56:28.310 --> 56:29.690]  I mean, doesn't that seem logical?
[56:29.690 --> 56:31.230]  And it was massively distributed.
[56:31.230 --> 56:33.630]  It wasn't from any one place.
[56:33.770 --> 56:38.010]  I mean, why is this out of the realm of possibility and why aren't we investigating it?
[56:38.010 --> 56:49.570]  Well, one thing that people need to realize when they hear some of these large numbers is, it might seem large to our everyday experiences, but as far as computers go, it's not always necessarily very surprising.
[56:49.850 --> 56:54.010]  A very few, a very small number of people, as Rob T.
[56:54.150 --> 57:03.710]  Firefly said, can create, bring a system to bear that will grow a very large amount of requests.
[57:03.710 --> 57:05.590]  The point is, the point is, we don't know.
[57:05.770 --> 57:08.590]  And until we do know, we can't really say one way or the other.
[57:08.690 --> 57:09.210]  And we may never know.
[57:10.070 --> 57:13.150]  Well, it does seem like you're rejecting the possibility out of hand, I have to say.
[57:13.410 --> 57:13.630]  All right.
[57:13.770 --> 57:19.750]  I wish we could discuss it some more, but unfortunately, we're just about out of time for the hour.
[57:19.950 --> 57:24.010]  We finally get a call that's not Rebel, and we have to move on from it quickly.
[57:24.410 --> 57:25.890]  Any last words from Berlin?
[57:26.510 --> 57:31.550]  Well, I'd love to discuss that subject, and we will discuss that subject more in future shows when we have more time.
[57:32.090 --> 57:41.450]  But for now, no, I just want to thank VAI for giving us the opportunity to present what's going on here in Berlin, and hope more Americans take part in such things around the world.
[57:41.890 --> 57:45.750]  And I want to thank everybody here at CCC for being a part of this show.
[57:45.970 --> 57:46.730]  It's history.
[57:47.090 --> 57:47.370]  Thank you.
[57:49.190 --> 57:49.810]  All right.
[57:50.030 --> 57:50.630]  That'll be it.
[57:51.270 --> 57:53.010]  We'll be here same time, same place next week.
[57:53.230 --> 57:53.370]  Thanks.
[57:53.550 --> 57:53.770]  Good night.
[57:54.190 --> 57:54.290]  Happy New Year.
[57:54.290 --> 57:55.370]  And we'd like to wish you all a very happy New Year.
[57:55.530 --> 57:55.710]  Oh yeah.
[57:55.810 --> 57:56.270]  Happy New Year.
[58:15.740 --> 58:26.760]  In deinen Augen Steht so vieles Was mir sagt Du Fühlst genau So Wie ich
[58:29.820 --> 59:06.120]  Du Bist das Mädchen Das zu mir gehört Ich Lebe nur noch für dich Du Bist alles Was ich hab Auf der Welt Du Bist alles Was ich will Du You, you alone can't be scared.
[59:06.940 --> 59:13.140]  You, you do not want more from me.
[59:15.840 --> 59:22.740]  Since we know each other, my life is beautiful.
[59:24.140 --> 59:28.920]  And it is beautiful only through you.
[59:30.760 --> 59:38.020]  What has happened, I stay with you.
[59:38.820 --> 59:43.200]  I will never leave you stuck.
[59:45.820 --> 59:53.280]  You are everything, what I have on the world.
[59:53.280 --> 59:59.040]  You are everything, what I love.
[01:00:38.270 --> 01:00:41.850]  I love you, yes, I love you.
[01:00:44.170 --> 01:00:46.130]  And I will always have love you.
[01:00:47.930 --> 01:00:51.190]  Always, always just you.
[01:00:51.190 --> 01:01:14.170]  Where I am, what I am, what I am, what I am.
[01:01:16.010 --> 01:01:22.530]  I can't tell you what you are for me.
[01:01:22.530 --> 01:01:31.090]  If you are not, tell me that I am not losing you.
[01:01:31.090 --> 01:01:38.110]  Oh, and this life, that can't I anymore.
[01:01:39.010 --> 01:01:43.890]  Nothing can't miss me from you.
[01:01:45.910 --> 01:01:53.430]  You are everything I have on the world.
[01:01:53.970 --> 01:01:58.390]  You are everything I want.
[01:01:59.790 --> 01:02:01.030]  You,
[01:02:04.140 --> 01:02:07.980]  you alone can't miss me.
[01:02:08.640 --> 01:02:13.140]  You, you do that.
[01:02:19.130 --> 01:02:22.910]  You, you alone can't miss me.
[01:02:24.030 --> 01:02:28.210]  You, you do that.