[00:00.000 --> 00:06.620]  The FSRN Board and Steering Committee, and many others, for relentless work to make sure FSRN stays on the air.
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[00:13.560 --> 00:14.460]  Thanks for listening.
[00:14.680 --> 00:16.500]  In San Francisco, I'm Danny Wood.
[00:35.860 --> 00:39.320]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:39.500 --> 00:43.440]  The time is just about 7 o'clock time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:51.290 --> 00:53.230]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:54.270 --> 00:56.210]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:56.810 --> 00:58.770]  Now I can't make a cough.
[00:59.510 --> 01:01.530]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:02.250 --> 01:04.090]  But if they could, they would.
[01:04.350 --> 01:06.990]  Bum, diddly, bum, for the best, it's made the worst.
[01:07.670 --> 01:09.490]  I hope that's understood.
[01:09.730 --> 01:10.490]  Bum, diddly, bum!
[02:21.520 --> 02:23.200]  I'm not in some faraway place.
[02:23.920 --> 02:24.760]  Greetings, Mike.
[02:25.520 --> 02:25.720]  Hello.
[02:26.360 --> 02:27.860]  And Kyle is here.
[02:28.280 --> 02:28.740]  Yeah, what up?
[02:28.960 --> 02:30.980]  Back from overseas as well.
[02:31.940 --> 02:32.460]  Voltaire.
[02:32.780 --> 02:33.000]  Greetings.
[02:33.860 --> 02:34.820]  And Dot Red.
[02:35.180 --> 02:35.460]  Hello.
[02:36.000 --> 02:36.700]  Red Hacked.
[02:36.800 --> 02:36.980]  Hello.
[02:37.580 --> 02:38.160]  Rob T.
[02:38.320 --> 02:38.740]  Firefly.
[02:39.060 --> 02:39.400]  Good evening.
[02:39.560 --> 02:39.840]  Jim.
[02:40.480 --> 02:40.720]  Yep.
[02:41.200 --> 02:42.260]  And Bernie S.
[02:42.340 --> 02:42.960]  down in Philadelphia.
[02:43.700 --> 02:45.540]  Welcome back and greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:45.860 --> 02:47.320]  That's just the first part of the show.
[02:47.320 --> 02:52.260]  We have a whole other cast of characters waiting for the next, every few minutes we're going to introduce.
[02:52.420 --> 02:53.960]  Oh, yes, we have a special guest, too.
[02:54.180 --> 02:56.160]  Also standing by in the studio.
[02:56.160 --> 02:58.160]  I can't see you because you're behind the monitor here.
[02:58.660 --> 03:01.400]  Mitch Altman is here, also back from overseas.
[03:02.200 --> 03:14.540]  Well, I guess maybe the three of us, Kyle, Mitch, and myself, who have been wandering around parts of Europe for the CCC Congress and various excuses to stay there for weeks afterwards as well.
[03:14.540 --> 03:17.720]  Maybe just a quick roundup as to how it was this year.
[03:17.920 --> 03:18.640]  What do you think, Mitch?
[03:18.740 --> 03:19.980]  It was a particularly good Congress, wasn't it?
[03:20.080 --> 03:25.280]  Yeah, for me, it was probably the best one for me that I've been to, and I've been going since 2006.
[03:25.680 --> 03:31.500]  And was it better because less people were there, because they put a limitation on how many people could attend?
[03:31.500 --> 03:32.180]  Was that the reason?
[03:32.380 --> 03:33.300]  Yeah, it's really unfortunate.
[03:33.440 --> 03:39.820]  There are so many people that can benefit from this and want to do it, but they sold out within several minutes after putting the pre-sales online.
[03:40.060 --> 03:40.540]  Four minutes.
[03:40.540 --> 03:50.000]  And I was actually lucky because I was a part of that, and I was here in the United States, and it wasn't loading, and I just kept hitting reload over and over again, and it actually worked, and I got my ticket that way.
[03:50.540 --> 03:56.400]  Yeah, I was in Japan, and I set the whole thing up at 5 in the morning so I could get the tickets when they went on sale.
[03:56.440 --> 03:59.940]  You see, we don't just call friends and ask them to give us tickets.
[04:00.060 --> 04:01.840]  No, we do all this ourselves.
[04:02.180 --> 04:02.980]  Yeah, well, it's important.
[04:03.020 --> 04:05.440]  And then, of course, I bought a few extra four friends.
[04:06.000 --> 04:10.320]  Ah, so because of that, a lot of people didn't get in because they afforded the tickets.
[04:10.800 --> 04:12.300]  Well, one person got to come in.
[04:12.480 --> 04:18.340]  But, yeah, they did limit it so it wasn't as crowded at all of the talks as the year before, so that helped.
[04:18.340 --> 04:21.800]  And there was also a lot of diversity this year because it's such a...
[04:21.800 --> 04:30.880]  I don't know, the whole hacker scene has been taking off, and it's so popular at hackerspaces, at hacker conferences, and, you know, maker fairs and whatever all else.
[04:31.000 --> 04:32.880]  The word has gotten out in the mainstream press.
[04:32.880 --> 04:35.380]  It's all really very positive.
[04:35.900 --> 04:49.340]  So it's getting not just like what people traditionally think of in hacker realms as hardware and software security, but also there was someone there who was doing how to do fermented beverages.
[04:49.700 --> 04:50.340]  There you go.
[04:50.540 --> 04:50.800]  Yeah.
[04:51.040 --> 04:54.480]  I mean, like, what's the one you make out of tea?
[04:54.920 --> 04:55.440]  Kombucha.
[04:55.560 --> 04:55.960]  Kombucha.
[04:56.220 --> 04:57.400]  Yeah, a kombucha workshop.
[04:57.560 --> 04:57.780]  Nice.
[04:58.740 --> 05:03.940]  And, you know, in music and video and photography and you name it, there were so many interesting people there.
[05:03.940 --> 05:05.200]  An exciting time to be a hacker.
[05:06.220 --> 05:09.400]  Yeah, I had a really, really, really good time this year.
[05:09.520 --> 05:15.000]  It was my second year at Congress, and my second year volunteering as an Engel, and I actually...
[05:15.000 --> 05:15.340]  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
[05:15.540 --> 05:15.860]  Engel?
[05:16.040 --> 05:17.300]  Yeah, Engel.
[05:17.440 --> 05:18.140]  What's an Engel?
[05:18.420 --> 05:23.880]  Well, they have the Chaos Engel system, and those are volunteers, people that help out, and...
[05:23.880 --> 05:24.860]  It's a German conference.
[05:25.240 --> 05:25.480]  Yeah.
[05:25.780 --> 05:27.440]  Oh, so you're saying the word angel.
[05:27.780 --> 05:29.020]  Except you're saying it in German.
[05:29.180 --> 05:30.380]  Yeah, Engel means angel.
[05:30.820 --> 05:31.140]  Okay.
[05:31.240 --> 05:32.520]  So I was an angel again.
[05:32.680 --> 05:36.920]  Some people might have thought you were standing at a right angle or something, and that was your position.
[05:37.640 --> 05:37.900]  No.
[05:38.040 --> 05:38.500]  No, okay.
[05:38.760 --> 05:39.780]  Well, that is...
[05:39.780 --> 05:41.180]  Some of the volunteers do have to do that.
[05:41.260 --> 05:42.260]  I had to do that for a while.
[05:42.940 --> 05:43.580]  Yeah, everybody...
[05:43.580 --> 05:46.080]  Well, not everybody, but a lot of people volunteer, and it really is pretty cool.
[05:46.200 --> 05:58.640]  I bring this up because I actually beat the online sales and everything because the Engels were given golden tickets, and so you get priority, and they have a batch of tickets for people to volunteer.
[05:58.740 --> 05:59.800]  And you were a volunteer last year.
[05:59.800 --> 06:02.200]  I was a volunteer my first year, and this was my second.
[06:02.260 --> 06:04.540]  So next year, I don't have to worry about this, hopefully.
[06:04.640 --> 06:05.880]  Yes, because you volunteered, yeah.
[06:06.020 --> 06:12.860]  And now that you said that, next year and the year after that, the whole angle system will also max out within four minutes.
[06:13.060 --> 06:14.920]  Yeah, it'll be just a conference full of angles.
[06:15.160 --> 06:17.300]  So the best volunteers will rise to the top.
[06:17.300 --> 06:19.920]  Yeah, well, there was one kid there who was volunteering.
[06:20.180 --> 06:22.820]  He was watching the door for something like eight hours straight.
[06:22.980 --> 06:26.620]  He had 32 hours on the first day somehow.
[06:27.220 --> 06:30.480]  And the poor guy wasn't sleeping or anything.
[06:30.780 --> 06:34.480]  We were done at like one or two in the morning, and he was like, yeah, I'll be done at 8.30, 9.
[06:34.660 --> 06:35.000]  Yeah.
[06:35.260 --> 06:36.620]  You always get people like that.
[06:36.620 --> 06:38.620]  I remember at Hope we had volunteers like that.
[06:38.700 --> 06:39.940]  Yes, not Kevin was one of them.
[06:40.080 --> 06:42.580]  The same people would be sitting there for hours and hours.
[06:42.700 --> 06:43.160]  All right.
[06:43.160 --> 06:44.900]  I mean, it's fine.
[06:45.060 --> 06:45.760]  You're helping out.
[06:45.940 --> 06:48.680]  People stay up for the entire weekend, refuse to get any sleep.
[06:48.820 --> 06:52.820]  You know, it's admirable, but it's also kind of dangerous sometimes.
[06:53.040 --> 06:54.260]  There's a very good reason for that.
[06:54.320 --> 06:55.880]  I will tell you from personal experience at Hope.
[06:56.080 --> 07:02.020]  I touched a bed at one point on the second day, and I stayed there for two or three more hours than I intended.
[07:02.680 --> 07:03.460]  Just by touching it?
[07:03.560 --> 07:03.880]  Yes.
[07:04.080 --> 07:04.260]  Wow.
[07:04.320 --> 07:06.280]  I couldn't get up, and I was like, oh, no, oh, no.
[07:06.460 --> 07:07.200]  Yeah, that'll happen.
[07:07.380 --> 07:08.320]  That will definitely happen.
[07:08.540 --> 07:10.320]  But yeah, it was a blast.
[07:11.320 --> 07:12.000]  Wandered around.
[07:12.360 --> 07:13.140]  Mitch, did you go any place?
[07:13.160 --> 07:15.120]  What place else other than Berlin this year?
[07:16.380 --> 07:17.520]  Just here in New York.
[07:17.680 --> 07:19.000]  It's a short trip for me.
[07:19.540 --> 07:19.720]  Okay.
[07:19.980 --> 07:20.760]  Berlin, New York.
[07:20.840 --> 07:21.840]  That's a good combination.
[07:22.380 --> 07:23.440]  Yeah, two of my favorite cities.
[07:23.960 --> 07:24.220]  Yeah.
[07:24.460 --> 07:31.840]  Well, Kyle and I were in Scandinavia and Switzerland and France, as well as, well, you know, the other place we went to.
[07:32.800 --> 07:33.840]  Did we mention this?
[07:33.840 --> 07:34.800]  Bernie, you know where we went to, right?
[07:34.800 --> 07:35.700]  Did we mention this last week?
[07:35.780 --> 07:41.300]  When we called you in Zurich, the man who answers the phone in your hotel answers the phone in like 12 languages.
[07:41.300 --> 07:43.220]  It takes a very long time.
[07:43.520 --> 07:43.820]  Wow.
[07:44.580 --> 07:48.100]  Well, Zurich is a very international place, but don't try to get food after 10 p.m.
[07:48.180 --> 07:48.980]  because it won't happen.
[07:49.060 --> 07:50.360]  Wait, you can get food at 10 p.m.
[07:50.360 --> 07:50.880]  in Zurich now?
[07:51.060 --> 07:51.920]  As late as 10?
[07:51.920 --> 07:56.460]  The guy at the hotel, the guy you spoke to, who spoke 12 languages, he made us a pizza, actually.
[07:56.600 --> 07:58.380]  We got back at about 10, 15.
[07:58.560 --> 08:00.120]  There was no food anywhere in the whole city.
[08:00.520 --> 08:01.680]  And we were asking about him.
[08:01.680 --> 08:02.880]  He said, asking about the food.
[08:02.960 --> 08:04.840]  And he said, well, I can just make you a pizza.
[08:05.320 --> 08:05.600]  Okay.
[08:06.040 --> 08:08.560]  I don't know who's going to watch the front desk, but he did it.
[08:08.600 --> 08:11.960]  He came up to the room with a pizza and it was really, it was something.
[08:12.380 --> 08:13.200]  Apparently unusual, too.
[08:13.260 --> 08:14.880]  And apparently you can do that in any language.
[08:15.400 --> 08:15.520]  Yeah.
[08:15.520 --> 08:16.380]  He can do that in any language.
[08:16.380 --> 08:17.800]  Yeah, it really is interesting.
[08:18.100 --> 08:20.920]  But Zurich, as well as Scandinavia, extremely expensive.
[08:21.460 --> 08:25.060]  I mean, you go to a cafe and have a couple of coffees and a couple of sandwiches.
[08:25.060 --> 08:26.040]  You spend 50 bucks.
[08:26.200 --> 08:28.940]  It's, yeah, it's something else.
[08:29.300 --> 08:32.120]  But that's part of the whole travel experience.
[08:32.360 --> 08:36.820]  Definitely a worthwhile part of the trip, though, seeing and exploring that place.
[08:36.820 --> 08:41.820]  I'd always wondered about Zurich, myself, and just getting a chance to go there was really cool.
[08:41.940 --> 08:45.500]  Another part, of course, related to travel is returning.
[08:45.500 --> 08:47.380]  Returning to the United States.
[08:47.880 --> 08:56.140]  And, well, as some of you might know, as I expected, same thing over again with me coming back into this country.
[08:56.300 --> 09:06.520]  This time, when I got to the customs guy, handed in my little form, he asked me, have you ever been questioned before when returning to the country?
[09:06.580 --> 09:11.700]  And I said, well, I've been randomly selected in the past using their terminology.
[09:11.700 --> 09:15.720]  And I had already gone through, and she didn't even ask me anything.
[09:15.860 --> 09:18.360]  She just stamped, stamped, and just said I could go.
[09:18.480 --> 09:19.520]  And I was lingering a little bit.
[09:19.540 --> 09:21.060]  I wanted to see where my stamp was.
[09:21.280 --> 09:23.860]  And then I realized you were still speaking with them.
[09:23.880 --> 09:28.440]  So I sort of lingered a little bit more before going to turn in my customs form.
[09:28.560 --> 09:32.000]  And I was sort of faking it after a while because I wanted to make sure you got through.
[09:32.100 --> 09:34.060]  We didn't really talk about if something happened.
[09:34.240 --> 09:37.060]  And I'm frankly kind of getting sick of this happening to you.
[09:38.760 --> 09:39.920]  Welcome to the club, yeah.
[09:40.240 --> 09:40.280]  Yeah.
[09:40.940 --> 09:42.660]  You know, this seems to be a frequent occurrence.
[09:42.660 --> 09:51.000]  And I think maybe it's time for a little action like a FOIA to find out what's up with your file or whatever they want to call.
[09:51.000 --> 09:54.980]  You saw me being escorted away into a private room.
[09:54.980 --> 10:03.460]  And it was... the room said CBP, Customs Border Patrol, eligibility.
[10:04.200 --> 10:08.440]  And what they did was they took me into this room, which was... it looked sort of like a courtroom.
[10:08.640 --> 10:12.040]  It had about 20 seats, none of which were filled because there was nobody else in there.
[10:12.240 --> 10:17.480]  And then there was this raised desk in the front that had three what looked like police officers.
[10:17.600 --> 10:19.220]  They were dressed up in police uniforms.
[10:19.760 --> 10:25.260]  They were other than the short, pasty, skin-headed customs guy that walked you in there?
[10:25.540 --> 10:27.120]  Yeah, that neo-Nazi guy.
[10:27.120 --> 10:31.200]  He dropped me off and went back to victimize more people, apparently.
[10:31.400 --> 10:32.720]  Although nobody else came in.
[10:32.920 --> 10:33.800]  I was the only one there.
[10:34.160 --> 10:39.220]  Three cops in the front, and they simply didn't say really anything to me.
[10:39.260 --> 10:40.580]  And I would not sit down.
[10:41.540 --> 10:45.060]  They wanted me to sit down, but that was one thing I wasn't going to do.
[10:45.120 --> 10:49.020]  I was going to hold my ground on that ridiculous thing and just stand up the whole time.
[10:49.220 --> 10:50.660]  And wait for this to play out.
[10:50.760 --> 10:55.600]  And I was very close to just mouthing off at them and saying, when are you guys going to get tired of this?
[10:55.680 --> 10:59.340]  When are you going to get tired of simply targeting me for no reason?
[10:59.500 --> 11:00.500]  You never find anything.
[11:00.620 --> 11:07.440]  You just like to be bullies and interfere with somebody's life constantly.
[11:07.440 --> 11:08.620]  Every time I come back to the country.
[11:08.700 --> 11:11.820]  Same thing happened coming back into Canada just a couple of months ago.
[11:12.140 --> 11:13.320]  Same thing happened last year.
[11:13.380 --> 11:13.960]  It's ridiculous.
[11:14.160 --> 11:15.480]  And I'm really sick of it.
[11:15.900 --> 11:17.040]  I was very close to that.
[11:17.040 --> 11:23.340]  And I knew if I really went into detail, I would not be able to stop and probably would have been there for a long, long time.
[11:23.540 --> 11:29.460]  I also saw standing there that there was a sign saying, detention cells are locked at a certain time at night.
[11:29.840 --> 11:32.840]  And the whole thing really struck me as kind of like a message that they were sending.
[11:33.120 --> 11:33.960]  Be in this room.
[11:33.960 --> 11:36.520]  Be in this room all by yourself with three cops.
[11:36.740 --> 11:41.740]  As they look at a computer screen, type all kinds of things for 20 minutes.
[11:42.060 --> 11:43.020]  Read all kinds of things.
[11:43.020 --> 11:48.100]  Don't say a word to you and eventually just hand you back your papers and say, yeah, you can go.
[11:48.780 --> 11:52.360]  And then, of course, once I walked out the door, I was searched.
[11:52.640 --> 11:54.040]  I had all my bags opened.
[11:54.180 --> 11:55.300]  Everything gone through again.
[11:55.600 --> 11:56.660]  Oh, so they searched you?
[11:57.080 --> 11:57.760]  Afterwards, yes.
[11:57.800 --> 11:58.220]  Oh, wow.
[11:58.320 --> 11:58.500]  Yeah.
[11:59.600 --> 12:00.880]  And I was outside at that point.
[12:00.940 --> 12:02.760]  I didn't want to stay in the interim.
[12:02.900 --> 12:06.980]  I handed in my customs paper because I couldn't use any communications device.
[12:07.040 --> 12:07.600]  I was worried.
[12:07.720 --> 12:08.300]  I didn't know what to do.
[12:08.300 --> 12:14.820]  If I should call people or if I should, you know, I was obviously going to wait, but I was pretty concerned because how long was this going to be?
[12:14.880 --> 12:15.700]  What are they doing to you?
[12:15.820 --> 12:18.300]  I had no way of knowing and I was getting really worried.
[12:18.300 --> 12:23.720]  And I don't know what they were doing either because they don't tell you anything, but obviously there's something going on and I want to get to the bottom of it.
[12:23.800 --> 12:23.940]  Yeah.
[12:24.040 --> 12:24.780]  And it was very scary.
[12:25.040 --> 12:28.200]  You know, I've been through this so many times, probably dozens of times now.
[12:28.300 --> 12:29.400]  I think it's time to have it stop.
[12:29.460 --> 12:41.640]  And I still shake when it happens to me because when you're in there by yourself, you realize anything can happen and who knows what they're going to say, who knows what they're They kept asking what I did, who I worked for, who I knew, who I was traveling with,
[12:41.740 --> 12:42.240]  who I saw.
[12:43.060 --> 12:43.780]  Things like that.
[12:43.880 --> 12:44.460]  The same old crap.
[12:44.600 --> 12:48.120]  And the thing that's interesting is that we had just flown in from Iceland.
[12:48.340 --> 12:48.880]  And get this.
[12:48.980 --> 12:49.860]  We flew in from Iceland.
[12:50.000 --> 12:51.860]  There was a stopover from Paris.
[12:52.300 --> 12:54.920]  And we had an hour and a half to hang out in the terminal.
[12:55.160 --> 12:56.000]  And what happens?
[12:56.060 --> 12:58.220]  We run into Jacob Appelbaum from WikiLeaks.
[12:58.340 --> 13:00.940]  He just happens to pass by in the terminal.
[13:01.340 --> 13:05.560]  You know, if they were watching us, they would have said, oh boy, they planned that out really well.
[13:06.200 --> 13:10.460]  These two groups of people just suddenly meeting and having a nice conversation.
[13:11.020 --> 13:15.080]  But, you know, you customs morons, we booked a ticket months ago, okay?
[13:15.080 --> 13:20.360]  We didn't have that much planning, in case you think that was part of a conspiracy or something like that.
[13:20.440 --> 13:22.900]  Believe me, our conspiracies are better shielded than that.
[13:23.080 --> 13:23.380]  Voltaire.
[13:23.580 --> 13:25.280]  Jacob had his own adventure coming in.
[13:25.420 --> 13:27.760]  He had to have the ACLU meet him at...
[13:27.760 --> 13:28.580]  Well, he told us that.
[13:28.580 --> 13:30.640]  He said the ACLU was going to be there.
[13:30.640 --> 13:32.120]  But he still got interrogated and everything.
[13:32.320 --> 13:32.460]  Yeah.
[13:32.600 --> 13:34.360]  And it sounds like he got the same treatment he got.
[13:34.520 --> 13:37.500]  So anybody that's potentially related to WikiLeaks is getting like...
[13:37.500 --> 13:38.980]  It has to be something like that.
[13:39.020 --> 13:42.120]  Although I've gotten it in the past, but this was different.
[13:42.260 --> 13:44.180]  I never was taken into a room like that before.
[13:45.120 --> 13:46.220]  Eligibility for citizenship?
[13:46.460 --> 13:46.560]  What?
[13:46.960 --> 13:48.520]  I mean, you know, I live here.
[13:48.520 --> 13:50.160]  I've got a passport for this damn place.
[13:50.300 --> 13:52.160]  I don't know why I have to keep going through this.
[13:52.180 --> 13:54.600]  Maybe they use that room for people who are being deported.
[13:54.900 --> 13:57.440]  I mean, if you think about it, there are 20 seats there and it could be...
[13:57.440 --> 14:04.340]  I don't know what kind of things go on in there, but I could imagine if you have a group of people who are being deported, they might be put in that room on their way to the plane.
[14:04.360 --> 14:05.080]  And detention cells.
[14:05.280 --> 14:06.440]  Who would go into detention cells?
[14:06.560 --> 14:10.160]  People who are in the country illegally and have to be detained and sent away.
[14:10.320 --> 14:16.660]  People who are going to either be deported while they wait for their flight because, you know, heaven forbid, they should just be in the terminal.
[14:17.880 --> 14:22.920]  Or people who are, you know, being deported as a result of a criminal conviction.
[14:23.140 --> 14:23.440]  Like, the U.S.
[14:23.460 --> 14:28.040]  government is really good at finding up reason... finding reasons to lock people up, especially if they're foreigners.
[14:28.800 --> 14:31.960]  So there's all kinds of uses they could come up with for all kinds of rooms.
[14:32.140 --> 14:41.740]  Now, Emmanuel, you said that since, you know, this most... since this whole WikiLeaks thing, that it seems like it might have been a bit more going on than previously.
[14:41.940 --> 14:43.860]  Did you possibly get one of those emails from Twitter?
[14:43.860 --> 14:45.220]  I did not, no.
[14:45.480 --> 14:49.140]  And you're referring to what happened to our friend, Rob, in Holland.
[14:49.500 --> 14:53.740]  And I had a wonderful conversation with him in Berlin, too, because he was at the Congress.
[14:54.180 --> 14:56.180]  And it's so sad.
[14:56.400 --> 14:58.620]  He will probably never come to this country again.
[14:59.220 --> 15:15.120]  He's afraid to come to this country because if he were to set foot on land here, they could point the entire WikiLeaks thing at him and say, because he was involved in the early stages of the collateral murder video thing, that he's responsible for the whole thing.
[15:15.320 --> 15:17.980]  He's enemy of the state, Guantanamo Bay, whatever.
[15:19.320 --> 15:26.560]  And he's somebody that is so far away from anyone that would be an enemy to any democratic system at all.
[15:26.560 --> 15:32.760]  He has a very keen sense of freedom and open-mindedness and various things like that.
[15:33.220 --> 15:42.820]  And, you know, when he was saying this to me, I thought, well, maybe that's a bit of an overreaction, similar to the way I felt when Julian said to me that he couldn't come to this country to give the keynote for Hope in July.
[15:43.240 --> 15:43.900]  But you know what?
[15:43.960 --> 15:44.540]  They're both right.
[15:44.700 --> 15:59.020]  And what happened this week when Twitter revealed that they were being subpoenaed by the government to give information for direct messages and all kinds of other things, for Rob, for Jacob, for Julian, for all kinds of people related to WikiLeaks.
[15:59.260 --> 16:00.080]  Yeah, they're right.
[16:00.220 --> 16:04.260]  They're right to be paranoid because they're trying to find anything they can find.
[16:04.400 --> 16:05.360]  And it's not just Twitter.
[16:05.600 --> 16:07.460]  It's every possible provider.
[16:07.640 --> 16:09.300]  They've all gotten letters like this.
[16:09.500 --> 16:10.820]  And that's so true.
[16:10.960 --> 16:17.320]  Just like WikiLeaks was pressuring companies like Facebook and Google to release, you know, any requests that they've been given.
[16:17.320 --> 16:21.580]  I personally think that so far what I've seen Twitter do is actually, you know, fairly graceful.
[16:21.580 --> 16:24.660]  They're actually letting people know instead of being blindsided when they come to the country.
[16:24.780 --> 16:31.080]  Twitter did the right thing by protecting its users, by trying to get them to be notified legally, and they won on that.
[16:31.220 --> 16:36.260]  Nobody else tried that, and we don't know who else got that letter.
[16:36.340 --> 16:44.720]  Yeah, you mentioned that Rob shouldn't have any of the fear because he's like a defender of liberties and democracy and stuff.
[16:44.880 --> 16:49.640]  But that's exactly what WikiLeaks has been doing, and now that they've been turned to the enemy, it's kind of shown the U.S.
[16:49.700 --> 16:50.840]  government for what they really are.
[16:51.800 --> 16:52.680]  Red Hack, then Bernie.
[16:53.240 --> 17:09.500]  Oh, I was just going to comment on the Twitter thing, and in case our listeners don't know, what happened was that they received a letter, a subpoena for the data, and they had, I think, ten days to respond to it, to ask to be able to inform the people whose data was being subpoenaed,
[17:09.580 --> 17:15.440]  which I guess they did in court, and then since that was unsealed then, they were able to tell the users.
[17:15.640 --> 17:21.220]  I mean, they still had to hand over the data, but they at least told the people who were being searched.
[17:21.220 --> 17:21.700]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[17:22.300 --> 17:33.180]  I just want to point out to our listeners, too, that aren't really familiar with this, that any services provider, such as Twitter, Facebook, email service providers, whatever, it's illegal for them.
[17:33.180 --> 17:38.200]  It's a criminal act for them to let you know that they'd receive such a subpoena.
[17:38.200 --> 17:52.860]  What happened in Twitter's case, though, is Twitter contacted the Department of Justice and asked to have the records unsealed so that they could notify the subscribers who were being targeted.
[17:53.120 --> 17:58.040]  And strangely, the DOJ did agree to unseal that particular...
[17:58.040 --> 18:00.520]  I found that incredibly surprising, didn't you?
[18:01.020 --> 18:02.020]  Very surprising.
[18:02.020 --> 18:07.060]  It's not the Department of Justice, it's a judge that ruled that the record, that the order would be unsealed.
[18:07.460 --> 18:07.840]  Right, right.
[18:08.580 --> 18:12.900]  So I guess as long as there are individuals making decisions, you might reach the right individual sometimes.
[18:13.120 --> 18:19.100]  The whole thing is really weird because if you actually read the subpoena, it's not clear what they want.
[18:19.200 --> 18:26.180]  They're asking Twitter for credit card numbers, which anyone who knows things about the tech industry knows that Twitter has no revenue at all.
[18:26.180 --> 18:36.940]  Well, what that tells me is that it's a boilerplate letter that's being sent to hundreds, if not more, organizations to get all information about these people, and they just didn't block that part out when they sent it to Twitter.
[18:37.680 --> 18:51.280]  So the question remains is, how many other service providers have been sent these subpoena requests for people like us and not gone to the trouble of requesting that a federal judge unseal the subpoena requests?
[18:51.280 --> 19:05.220]  For all we know, all these providers have gotten these types, and it seems likely that the Department of Justice is not leaving any stone unturned and is using its vast resources to target people like us in a pretty wide scale.
[19:05.220 --> 19:07.860]  But it's scary knowing that we don't know.
[19:08.020 --> 19:19.040]  Well, the question I have is, Twitter got permission to reveal the fact that the subpoenas existed from that judge, but that does not apply to any of the other subpoenas, to any other ISP?
[19:19.300 --> 19:19.820]  Right.
[19:20.540 --> 19:22.000]  Okay, that's unfortunate.
[19:22.240 --> 19:25.660]  The other ISPs haven't appealed, like Google and Facebook.
[19:25.660 --> 19:30.220]  Right, but there's no guarantee if they did that they, A, reach the same judge, or B, get the same opinion.
[19:30.400 --> 19:37.760]  But it seems doubtful that Google, for example, hasn't appealed anything since, I believe, 2006 was the last time they appealed something.
[19:39.920 --> 19:41.420]  Well, we know it's out there.
[19:41.500 --> 19:47.660]  We know that people are being targeted, and it's pretty obvious that they want blood, and who knows where this is going to go.
[19:47.660 --> 19:53.400]  So it's frightening, it really is, because these are good people, the people that we talk to, the people we know, people we've worked with in the past.
[19:54.120 --> 19:58.160]  And, you know, really what we should be focusing on is the information that's being revealed.
[19:59.040 --> 20:01.600]  And we were in Europe watching the news.
[20:01.820 --> 20:06.460]  Basically, you'd see a news item, WikiLeaks, colon, and then something revealed about the U.S.
[20:06.560 --> 20:13.720]  government or some other government in the world because it's a news source, because they found something out, because something was leaked to them, and it's news.
[20:13.720 --> 20:25.240]  And let's deal with the news story, not how did the news story get to them, who's responsible, who can we prosecute and blame, and completely avoid the issue as to, well, what exactly did they do in the first place?
[20:25.240 --> 20:28.940]  What exactly are these governments up to that people have the right to know about?
[20:29.840 --> 20:30.600]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[20:30.600 --> 20:50.020]  I just want to ask you, when you were being interrogated by the Border and Customs Protection, this kangaroo court situation, which is pretty much what it was, I guess, not an actual court, but you kind of felt like you were in one, I imagine, in a weird way.
[20:50.660 --> 20:55.740]  What are the ramifications of you just standing there and smiling and not answering their questions?
[20:55.880 --> 20:57.220]  Where are they going to deport you to?
[20:58.260 --> 20:59.600]  I mean, you're already a U.S.
[20:59.640 --> 21:00.820]  citizen, you're already in U.S.
[21:00.880 --> 21:01.140]  soil.
[21:01.940 --> 21:06.360]  What, you know, how can people organize against this and just say, enough?
[21:07.200 --> 21:09.340]  Do you have the right to remain silent?
[21:09.360 --> 21:10.220]  I mean, what's the deal?
[21:10.420 --> 21:11.640]  They wouldn't have deported me.
[21:11.740 --> 21:15.800]  They would have put me in one of those cells, one of those detention cells, for who knows how long.
[21:16.720 --> 21:18.560]  And that wasn't really an interrogation.
[21:18.680 --> 21:23.680]  It was mostly just an intimidation tactic, where I was standing there for a long period of time, and I wasn't smiling either.
[21:23.840 --> 21:33.300]  I was just looking at the various pictures on the wall, and I noticed that they had all these, signs saying, no smoking, no cell phones, various other things like that.
[21:33.480 --> 21:35.240]  And I just tried to take notice.
[21:35.420 --> 21:42.540]  There were offices surrounding this little courtroom with glass windows, apparently maybe interrogation rooms or something like that.
[21:42.960 --> 21:46.900]  And three cops, like I said, up on the bench doing God knows what.
[21:47.060 --> 21:51.220]  This guy, one guy who was all the way on the left was just typing all this information and reading all this information.
[21:51.420 --> 21:53.240]  And, you know, they do that already.
[21:53.280 --> 21:56.020]  Whenever I go past the border, they read all this.
[21:56.100 --> 21:59.380]  But apparently there's a lot more information they've inputted now or they're adding to.
[22:00.720 --> 22:02.660]  And, yeah, they didn't ask me any questions.
[22:02.740 --> 22:07.300]  They just basically typed all this stuff, made me stand there for a long time, and then said, okay, you can go.
[22:07.300 --> 22:13.900]  So the guy actually said, oh, wait, I need that back, meaning my passport and my whatever that form is they give you when you come into the country.
[22:15.320 --> 22:18.340]  And then he gave it back to me, and I went out and got searched.
[22:18.600 --> 22:21.620]  So it was a fun-filled return to the country.
[22:21.760 --> 22:23.540]  And I have to say, you know, Kyle and I were traveling.
[22:23.540 --> 22:28.240]  We went to many countries, and we went to the Balkans earlier.
[22:29.780 --> 22:39.760]  And never once, any questions, any interrogation, any unpleasantness in any of the countries that we went to, except in the United States, when we come back to our own country.
[22:39.900 --> 22:40.980]  It's so sad.
[22:41.360 --> 22:42.580]  It's really, really sad.
[22:42.600 --> 22:49.300]  And the thing is, it seems like they're filing new reports every time, you know, you cross a border in the States.
[22:49.400 --> 22:52.640]  And we can go anywhere in the world and have really no trouble at all.
[22:52.640 --> 22:54.680]  And they're not finding anything.
[22:54.900 --> 22:56.660]  They're not... there's no specific warrant.
[22:56.800 --> 22:59.880]  There's no... you know, what exactly are they digging up?
[22:59.960 --> 23:05.060]  It's just busy work and, you know, adding things to compound things to cause more problems in the future.
[23:05.180 --> 23:06.940]  And it basically amounts to harassment.
[23:07.760 --> 23:08.200]  Rob?
[23:08.660 --> 23:17.580]  So now, Kyle, when Emanuel was in the back being declared unmutual or whatnot, did they tell you anything, like, or ask you anything about this guy you're traveling with?
[23:18.220 --> 23:18.540]  No.
[23:18.920 --> 23:18.960]  No.
[23:18.960 --> 23:23.860]  When I walked through a separate aisle, I was going through aisle 26, actually.
[23:23.860 --> 23:25.100]  Actually, we both went through 26.
[23:25.300 --> 23:26.340]  Oh, you went through 26, too?
[23:26.360 --> 23:26.480]  Yeah.
[23:26.640 --> 23:27.960]  You didn't get the same guy as me, though.
[23:28.360 --> 23:29.560]  Yeah, I had a woman...
[23:29.560 --> 23:31.520]  They moved you over to the left a little bit.
[23:31.580 --> 23:32.540]  They moved me to the right.
[23:32.820 --> 23:33.140]  Yes.
[23:33.440 --> 23:35.820]  It was both... it was aisle 26, in case anybody wants to revisit it.
[23:36.100 --> 23:36.400]  Right, right.
[23:36.540 --> 23:39.460]  And I went through and she said nothing to me.
[23:39.560 --> 23:41.640]  She just stamped the customs form and stamped my passport.
[23:41.840 --> 23:46.940]  And then I lingered, kind of looking out of the corner of my eye, before you pass by all the baggage stuff.
[23:47.580 --> 23:55.320]  The only time I had questions, I watched the short, pasty, skinhead guy wander off with E.
[23:55.640 --> 23:59.580]  And then I passed the baggage carousel and sort of lingered some more.
[23:59.640 --> 24:00.460]  I had no idea what to do.
[24:00.580 --> 24:03.240]  I was, like, kind of dumbstruck.
[24:03.360 --> 24:03.600]  I don't know.
[24:03.660 --> 24:06.940]  I was standing there in this baggage claim area.
[24:06.940 --> 24:12.020]  But I knew I was in the in-between and I had to get out before I could use a phone or anything like that.
[24:12.040 --> 24:12.800]  I couldn't take pictures.
[24:12.920 --> 24:15.860]  I couldn't... but I also didn't want to leave you behind.
[24:15.860 --> 24:19.480]  And we hadn't really made some contingency because, come on, you shouldn't have these problems.
[24:19.480 --> 24:21.460]  Yeah, but you know, we both expected something to happen.
[24:21.660 --> 24:22.800]  We didn't really make the plan.
[24:23.020 --> 24:24.520]  I should have... I should have done that.
[24:24.600 --> 24:25.360]  I did all these other things.
[24:25.500 --> 24:28.040]  I swallowed my SIM card, you know, of the very...
[24:28.040 --> 24:31.760]  Well, you have to do these things when you enter the country so that nobody gets your data.
[24:31.760 --> 24:31.780]  Yeah.
[24:32.800 --> 24:33.600]  And everything's fine.
[24:34.460 --> 24:35.100]  But... Go ahead.
[24:35.220 --> 24:39.520]  To answer what you said, Rob, the only thing I did ask me was when I turned in my customs form.
[24:39.520 --> 24:42.860]  And they didn't explicitly know that we were traveling together.
[24:43.620 --> 24:46.100]  And he just asked me, are you a student?
[24:46.240 --> 24:46.620]  Are you on...
[24:46.620 --> 24:47.660]  And I was like, no.
[24:47.760 --> 24:48.660]  And you're on vacation?
[24:48.660 --> 24:48.920]  Yeah.
[24:49.000 --> 24:50.520]  And he asked me, you know, what I do for a living.
[24:50.620 --> 24:51.380]  I said, I'm a photographer.
[24:51.500 --> 24:54.060]  And he was like, you know, get out of here, you know, that kind of thing.
[24:54.060 --> 24:58.640]  And so I walked out and started powering up my phone and thinking, like, what do I do?
[24:58.720 --> 25:00.840]  And just waiting in the international greeting area.
[25:00.980 --> 25:05.100]  But you had something interesting about what they asked you regarding who you were...
[25:05.100 --> 25:06.820]  Well, they asked what I did.
[25:06.900 --> 25:07.620]  I said, I'm in publishing.
[25:07.760 --> 25:08.820]  They wanted to know what I published.
[25:08.860 --> 25:10.120]  And who you were traveling with.
[25:10.240 --> 25:11.120]  Who I was traveling with.
[25:11.120 --> 25:13.020]  I didn't give any names or anything like that.
[25:13.120 --> 25:14.060]  I wasn't about to give names.
[25:14.140 --> 25:16.860]  Even though they could find out very easily who I was traveling with.
[25:16.920 --> 25:17.100]  Right.
[25:17.140 --> 25:18.500]  I'm not going to make their job easy.
[25:18.700 --> 25:19.380]  I'm really not.
[25:19.380 --> 25:20.020]  I'm sick of this.
[25:20.080 --> 25:20.720]  I've been nice.
[25:20.820 --> 25:21.280]  I've been polite.
[25:21.280 --> 25:23.500]  And, you know, the guy who was searching me, he was a nice guy.
[25:23.500 --> 25:24.300]  He was pleasant.
[25:24.500 --> 25:28.140]  But I was glaring at him because I'm quite frankly sick of this.
[25:28.140 --> 25:30.820]  And I'm not going to be polite and nice anymore.
[25:31.500 --> 25:33.240]  And this is something that we discussed.
[25:33.260 --> 25:40.420]  We'd really like some help, advice from anyone out there, listeners, lawyers, who can help us.
[25:40.540 --> 25:43.380]  Maybe file some kind of FOIA form or something like that.
[25:43.480 --> 25:44.360]  There is support.
[25:45.400 --> 25:46.160]  You won't win.
[25:47.780 --> 25:48.640]  I won't win?
[25:48.640 --> 25:50.580]  You won't get the data you seek.
[25:50.760 --> 26:06.540]  There's an interesting guy called Edward, and I'm going to pronounce his last name wrong, but it's something like Hausbruck, who's really been doing a lot of work in this area of filing Privacy Act requests and FOIA requests, both in the U.S.
[26:06.640 --> 26:07.920]  and to foreign.
[26:08.340 --> 26:11.820]  So when he travels to Europe, he's a U.S.
[26:11.880 --> 26:12.080]  citizen.
[26:12.180 --> 26:15.880]  But if you travel to Europe, then the European data protection laws apply.
[26:15.880 --> 26:19.480]  So he says, like, hey, KLM, like, did you give my data to the U.S.
[26:19.560 --> 26:19.800]  government?
[26:20.100 --> 26:21.880]  And they won't answer, and the U.S.
[26:21.980 --> 26:24.020]  government won't answer, and there's all kinds of lawsuits.
[26:25.140 --> 26:26.100]  But good luck.
[26:26.500 --> 26:34.140]  Yeah, well, I intend to be loud about this and abrasive and basically demand to know what it is that they keep reading about me.
[26:34.160 --> 26:36.300]  And I should have that information.
[26:36.300 --> 26:50.060]  It seems reasonable that while you're here in the country, you've been cleared, you've passed through, you're done being harassed for, you know, busy work, essentially, that they want to do, symbolic, you know, quizzing and checking.
[26:50.900 --> 27:01.600]  While you're here, and an American, why not be able to, like, do something to answer this problem and get it cleared up so that you don't have this problem in the future?
[27:01.780 --> 27:02.760]  Because it's ridiculous.
[27:03.340 --> 27:09.280]  The reason why is because the government wants an extrajudicial way to punish you for being associated with somebody they don't like.
[27:09.400 --> 27:11.100]  But they've been doing this to me for years.
[27:11.260 --> 27:15.540]  I mean, it's gotten worse, but what are they trying to punish me for so I can stop doing it?
[27:15.540 --> 27:24.000]  You're giving them an awful lot of credit, Voltaire, for, like, competence and assuming that they're targeting a manual based on something he actually has or hasn't done.
[27:24.420 --> 27:28.240]  And there's not a whole lot of reason to believe that to be the case.
[27:28.520 --> 27:29.140]  So what's your theory?
[27:29.340 --> 27:34.700]  That they're just idiots, and they don't like your hairstyle or something, and they didn't like it 10 years ago.
[27:34.820 --> 27:35.100]  I cut my hair.
[27:35.220 --> 27:35.860]  I cut my hair.
[27:35.960 --> 27:39.340]  They didn't like your hairstyle 10 years ago, and they've got a note in that in their files now.
[27:39.460 --> 27:40.640]  Like, it could be anything at all.
[27:40.640 --> 27:41.660]  I shaved off the dreads.
[27:41.820 --> 27:47.480]  You know, I've been trying to play by the rules here, trying to look nice and respectable, and it doesn't work.
[27:47.580 --> 27:58.300]  If I remember correctly, when you were talking about one of the times when you came back through Canada, and you were stopped, and you asked why it was because you were stopped before, which was a random stop, and that just because they were doing this random stuff,
[27:58.380 --> 27:59.840]  that now you're going to get stopped every time.
[28:00.540 --> 28:01.180]  That's what I've seen.
[28:01.220 --> 28:04.940]  And you happen to have the problem that you travel a lot, so this is going to happen to you.
[28:05.160 --> 28:05.980]  Yeah, I think that's...
[28:05.980 --> 28:09.320]  Other people may not notice because the frequency of their travel is less.
[28:09.320 --> 28:13.360]  They always do this thing where they look at your passport, which is filled with stamps, and they say, you travel a lot?
[28:13.560 --> 28:14.760]  No, I don't travel a lot.
[28:14.840 --> 28:16.120]  The passport, I just collect stamps.
[28:16.120 --> 28:16.900]  I don't go anywhere.
[28:17.100 --> 28:17.660]  Come on!
[28:17.940 --> 28:19.480]  They might also find that suspicious.
[28:19.740 --> 28:21.260]  You know, someone travels too much.
[28:21.460 --> 28:22.560]  You know, Americans shouldn't travel.
[28:22.560 --> 28:28.620]  Only in America would someone find that suspicious, or going places is, you know, grounds to detain somebody.
[28:28.620 --> 28:31.140]  Granted, it is difficult, but they couldn't even spell Rob's name right.
[28:31.500 --> 28:31.940]  I mean...
[28:31.940 --> 28:33.420]  That can be a challenge, though.
[28:33.540 --> 28:36.860]  If I went around this table, I bet most people couldn't spell his last name right.
[28:36.860 --> 28:39.000]  But they were filing a subpoena, right?
[28:39.120 --> 28:42.320]  Yeah, but they just have to find it somewhere on the internet and copy and paste.
[28:42.480 --> 28:42.980]  Yeah, that's true.
[28:43.500 --> 28:44.540]  It's not very difficult.
[28:45.280 --> 28:50.900]  Anyway, so if anyone has information or advice, please write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[28:51.100 --> 29:00.840]  You know, I'm not going to use this to dissuade me from going places or hanging out with people or being outspoken or anything like that, but, you know, it does put a crimp in things.
[29:00.840 --> 29:01.380]  It really does.
[29:01.580 --> 29:12.780]  You ought to be able to fix this in some way and move freely and not, you know, have that apprehension a couple days before you come back to the country, that of all the places you go, your home is going to give you the most trouble.
[29:12.900 --> 29:13.200]  Yeah.
[29:13.220 --> 29:13.500]  That's wrong.
[29:13.660 --> 29:14.200]  It shouldn't...
[29:14.200 --> 29:15.780]  I mean, what is it that they think I'm going to be doing?
[29:15.840 --> 29:16.820]  That's what I'd just like to know.
[29:16.840 --> 29:17.740]  What is it you're looking for?
[29:17.820 --> 29:18.600]  Maybe I can help you.
[29:20.180 --> 29:22.920]  I guess on that subject, Kyle, something happened to you.
[29:22.920 --> 29:33.920]  So, as far as looking for something, we actually lost something in the... I think it was in the airport in Paris, a hat of yours that has great sentimental value.
[29:34.040 --> 29:38.800]  And we've been trying to contact the lost and found there over the last couple of days.
[29:38.800 --> 29:40.140]  And this is quite an interesting story.
[29:40.260 --> 29:42.980]  Totally different mood here.
[29:43.180 --> 29:44.780]  But we're trying to reach this office.
[29:44.780 --> 29:46.360]  And we called them yesterday.
[29:46.620 --> 29:49.540]  And the recording spoke in French and in English.
[29:49.740 --> 29:53.400]  It basically gave a list of random days that they were going to be closed for no particular reason.
[29:53.500 --> 29:54.640]  Just they're going to be closed on these days.
[29:54.720 --> 29:56.260]  And, of course, yesterday was one of them.
[29:56.360 --> 29:58.780]  So, we stayed up until late to call them today.
[29:59.680 --> 30:03.620]  And the phone gave the same message even after they were supposedly open.
[30:03.940 --> 30:06.920]  Then the phone just rang and rang and rang and didn't pick up.
[30:07.000 --> 30:09.960]  Then the phone was busy for an hour and nothing happened.
[30:10.140 --> 30:11.720]  It was really insane.
[30:11.760 --> 30:14.520]  I finally reached them again in the afternoon, their time.
[30:14.940 --> 30:16.480]  And it went to the recording again.
[30:16.660 --> 30:22.580]  Even though they were supposed to be open, it said they opened during this time and hung up on us as if they were closed.
[30:22.960 --> 30:26.540]  Well, I started playing around and I realized that it was an answering machine.
[30:26.820 --> 30:29.020]  And within 30 seconds, I had guessed the code.
[30:31.180 --> 30:31.900]  And, yeah.
[30:32.100 --> 30:34.600]  So, basically, I have control of their system now.
[30:34.660 --> 30:36.140]  Not that that's helping us in any way.
[30:36.500 --> 30:40.240]  But I was able to turn on the room monitor and listen to what was going on inside the office.
[30:42.020 --> 30:43.900]  Yeah, this is the kind of trouble I get into.
[30:43.900 --> 30:47.600]  And I could hear, you know, a couple of people moving around, but not a lot.
[30:47.800 --> 30:49.740]  And you wonder why you can't get into the United States.
[30:49.780 --> 30:52.740]  Listen, I'm just trying to reach a phone number, for God's sake.
[30:53.060 --> 31:02.140]  If anyone out there has any information on how to reach the lost and found people over in an airport in Paris or is in Paris, maybe can just pay a visit there.
[31:02.140 --> 31:04.620]  But we'll honor you for a long time.
[31:04.740 --> 31:06.740]  Because, you know, we do want to get this back.
[31:06.740 --> 31:09.060]  And we think it's there, but we can't reach anybody.
[31:09.060 --> 31:09.960]  It's so frustrating.
[31:10.100 --> 31:17.280]  And it ties into what we were saying about Germany a couple of weeks ago, where we were trying to get an explanation as to how to use the SIM card that they had sold us.
[31:17.360 --> 31:18.280]  And nobody would help.
[31:18.420 --> 31:20.940]  And very obnoxious and difficult.
[31:20.940 --> 31:24.880]  And I realize the rest of the world sometimes has real challenges that we don't even think about.
[31:25.400 --> 31:26.680]  But just getting through to a phone number.
[31:26.780 --> 31:28.700]  That's all we're trying to do, is get through to a phone number.
[31:28.960 --> 31:35.940]  Yeah, customer service and, you know, common things like, oh, I misplaced something lost and found, well, is nowhere to be found in this case.
[31:35.940 --> 31:41.680]  I'm not sure that you'd have any better success calling the lost and found department at JFK.
[31:42.020 --> 31:44.200]  Oh, I think I'd get them to answer the phone, at least.
[31:44.420 --> 31:45.340]  Well, good with that, too.
[31:45.340 --> 31:48.660]  And I don't think they'd close down just randomly for no particular reason.
[31:48.660 --> 31:49.600]  It might be a holiday.
[31:49.600 --> 31:51.140]  They have a lot of holidays this time of year.
[31:51.280 --> 31:53.920]  I'm willing to respect that and play by their rules.
[31:53.940 --> 31:55.480]  But they don't play by their own rules.
[31:55.800 --> 31:57.140]  Let's try calling JFK.
[31:57.280 --> 31:58.220]  It'll make good radio.
[31:59.400 --> 32:00.840]  What are we going to say if we reach them?
[32:00.960 --> 32:01.780]  Plus, we don't have the number.
[32:02.780 --> 32:04.060]  But, yeah, that's just...
[32:04.060 --> 32:05.240]  Hello, have you found my hat?
[32:06.080 --> 32:16.240]  Well, it's an interesting indication as to how a hacker might deal with a situation rather than just simply accept the fact that the phone's busy and not try again.
[32:16.240 --> 32:19.640]  No, you gain control of their system and you learn all about them.
[32:19.780 --> 32:20.620]  And then...
[32:20.620 --> 32:25.380]  This is emblematic of your diligence and you're really helping a lot and I really appreciate it.
[32:25.460 --> 32:30.580]  Because I was getting very frustrated at the busy signals and the ringing and ringing and the, you know...
[32:30.580 --> 32:34.300]  And did you notice sometimes the busy signals were American busy signals and sometimes they were European busy.
[32:34.300 --> 32:35.560]  I was fascinated by that, too.
[32:35.940 --> 32:39.760]  Because sometimes the switch interprets the busy signal and translates it to the American one.
[32:40.780 --> 32:44.540]  And I'm having a lot of fun calling these numbers and hearing all kinds of things like that.
[32:44.700 --> 32:47.120]  You also had an interesting situation with your phone.
[32:47.500 --> 32:48.000]  Oh, Lord.
[32:48.000 --> 32:50.380]  Where you looked at your phone bill today and...
[32:50.380 --> 32:50.520]  Yes.
[32:50.600 --> 32:51.600]  And you fainted for a little bit.
[32:51.840 --> 32:52.840]  Yeah, I think I blacked out.
[32:52.920 --> 32:54.180]  Yeah, what happened exactly?
[32:54.880 --> 32:59.180]  I got charged $100 for data traffic.
[32:59.540 --> 33:00.500]  And you didn't use your phone at all?
[33:00.500 --> 33:01.280]  I didn't use it.
[33:01.280 --> 33:12.960]  It was just, it was like associating with the phone company and there were these little like 5 kilobyte every like 10 minutes and I got charged for all of that in every country I went to.
[33:12.960 --> 33:14.180]  This is what happens when you have a smart phone.
[33:14.700 --> 33:16.100]  The phone is smart, yes.
[33:16.440 --> 33:16.860]  It is smart.
[33:17.020 --> 33:18.760]  But the user is victimized.
[33:18.900 --> 33:22.340]  That's why you get a local SIM or you have, you know, roaming turned off.
[33:22.540 --> 33:24.240]  Ah, not if your BlackBerry is locked, you don't.
[33:24.420 --> 33:25.380]  Well, then you shut off roaming.
[33:26.040 --> 33:26.400]  Yeah.
[33:26.640 --> 33:27.620]  Well, you have to do all these things.
[33:27.620 --> 33:31.100]  I just turn my phone on, my stupid phone, and I don't get charged for anything.
[33:31.100 --> 33:32.060]  Unless I make a phone call.
[33:32.180 --> 33:40.320]  The odd thing about this is that I've called in the past and said I'm traveling and sort of scheduled that on my account and I've never had these kinds of charges.
[33:40.480 --> 33:44.480]  Well, this time I didn't, you know, talk to them about international travel.
[33:44.660 --> 33:51.800]  Whether, I don't know if I've bought their plan for international traveling, but I've at least made them aware of it and it's never shut up on my bill.
[33:51.860 --> 34:03.120]  Well, this time I didn't call them and let them know my itinerary and lo and behold, I get all of these little itty-bitty five kilobyte data charges and it amounted to $100.
[34:03.360 --> 34:04.440]  I was pretty stunned.
[34:04.900 --> 34:05.840]  But what happened?
[34:06.060 --> 34:12.780]  Yeah, I was able to call and it was the most fluid conversation I'd ever had with customer service.
[34:13.920 --> 34:21.420]  They seemed to know exactly what I was going through and immediately said that they would eliminate the charges completely.
[34:21.420 --> 34:22.720]  This is AT&T.
[34:22.880 --> 34:24.660]  They just basically cut the charges.
[34:24.720 --> 34:28.820]  Well, of course, they're losing a lot of customers now to Verizon apparently because of the iPhone thing.
[34:29.300 --> 34:29.740]  Yes.
[34:29.900 --> 34:32.760]  I really thought we could get through the whole show without caring about this.
[34:32.860 --> 34:34.880]  Let me just say one thing about this.
[34:35.880 --> 34:37.720]  Verizon has introduced the iPhone.
[34:37.720 --> 34:41.180]  So now you can use an iPhone on Verizon as well as AT&T.
[34:41.260 --> 34:41.940]  But you know what, guys?
[34:42.320 --> 34:45.900]  If you have an iPhone now, no, you can't use that iPhone.
[34:45.900 --> 34:47.600]  You have to buy a whole new iPhone.
[34:47.840 --> 34:48.800]  It's ridiculous.
[34:49.180 --> 34:52.280]  I mean, how many iPhones are people going to be coerced into buying?
[34:52.280 --> 34:54.520]  I know people with four or five iPhones.
[34:54.660 --> 34:55.180]  It's insane.
[34:55.360 --> 34:59.580]  Almost everybody I know who has an iPhone has bought at least two of them and sometimes a lot more than that.
[34:59.700 --> 35:02.140]  And then they go buy more iPhones for their children.
[35:02.360 --> 35:03.620]  Like, you can't just have one iPhone.
[35:03.980 --> 35:07.540]  Yeah, but I'm talking about the same person having to replace the iPhone over and over again.
[35:07.540 --> 35:07.820]  I know.
[35:07.980 --> 35:08.400]  Full cost.
[35:08.720 --> 35:14.620]  Well, I mean, the situation, right, is that they have different network types and it's not like the thing has chipsets for all the different networks.
[35:14.860 --> 35:15.940]  Well, isn't that their problem?
[35:16.080 --> 35:16.880]  It shouldn't be the customer.
[35:16.880 --> 35:18.520]  If you switch, you have the phone.
[35:18.860 --> 35:21.940]  Yeah, but I mean, there was exclusivity with AT&T.
[35:22.060 --> 35:28.120]  So, you know, if Apple had been throwing in, you know, CDMA chipsets into their phones, AT&T would probably have, you know, wondered what's up.
[35:28.280 --> 35:30.580]  So, and I'm sure AT&T wouldn't have let them.
[35:30.820 --> 35:31.080]  So...
[35:31.080 --> 35:32.660]  Here's my suggestion to Verizon.
[35:32.660 --> 35:32.860]  Who is that?
[35:33.440 --> 35:40.240]  Buy the iPhones from the AT&T customers and then resell them to people who want them and it'll be less painful.
[35:40.480 --> 35:41.120]  Yeah, well...
[35:41.120 --> 35:45.060]  No, because the AT&T iPhones don't have CDMA chips in them.
[35:45.240 --> 35:46.200]  Yeah, but you're not using that.
[35:46.200 --> 35:47.140]  Resell them to other foreigners.
[35:47.140 --> 35:47.940]  Yeah, resell them to other...
[35:47.940 --> 35:49.500]  But you could do that as a person.
[35:49.940 --> 35:50.140]  Uh-huh.
[35:50.460 --> 35:50.800]  All right.
[35:50.940 --> 35:59.280]  But my other thing, comment on it was that Verizon is releasing this whole new, like, faster network and these ones will not support that.
[35:59.280 --> 36:05.080]  So, I guess people will be buying another one when the one that supports the faster network comes out.
[36:05.160 --> 36:05.720]  I don't know.
[36:05.880 --> 36:10.020]  It's just a race all the time to get the new network and the fastest service.
[36:10.280 --> 36:12.900]  And, you know, I just want to make phone calls.
[36:12.980 --> 36:14.200]  What happens to all of these phones?
[36:14.200 --> 36:18.520]  In my old fashion for wanting to make phone calls on my portable phone or even calling it a portable phone.
[36:18.800 --> 36:22.960]  What happens to all these phones is they end up in landfills in the third world and poison the water supply.
[36:23.260 --> 36:23.600]  Yes.
[36:23.780 --> 36:25.080]  That was the plan from the start.
[36:25.460 --> 36:28.780]  Well, I don't know about the plan, but the inevitable consequences of not having a plan.
[36:28.780 --> 36:34.380]  You know, earlier this week, I spent $10 on a new landline phone to replace a phone that broke after 30 years of use.
[36:34.520 --> 36:36.840]  I can plug that into any wall I want in the country, pretty much.
[36:36.920 --> 36:37.880]  You have a landline.
[36:37.980 --> 36:38.200]  Yes.
[36:38.520 --> 36:39.680]  Not my wall.
[36:40.000 --> 36:41.380]  Can we go around the room?
[36:41.400 --> 36:42.440]  Who has a landline?
[36:42.480 --> 36:44.640]  I have a couple of landlines, actually.
[36:44.940 --> 36:46.400]  What counts as a landline?
[36:46.440 --> 36:46.680]  Okay.
[36:46.980 --> 36:49.700]  I think it's got to be your local phone company.
[36:49.740 --> 36:53.820]  I mean, I have a cable landline as well, but I also have a Verizon landline.
[36:53.880 --> 36:54.740]  So, I think...
[36:54.740 --> 36:56.220]  I don't want to pay for a landline.
[36:56.300 --> 36:57.340]  Why do I want to pay for a landline?
[36:58.860 --> 36:59.280]  Rob T.
[36:59.440 --> 37:00.820]  Firefly, obviously, you have a landline.
[37:00.940 --> 37:01.060]  Yes.
[37:01.340 --> 37:02.220]  Jim, do you have a landline?
[37:03.180 --> 37:03.460]  Yeah?
[37:03.660 --> 37:03.940]  You do?
[37:04.140 --> 37:04.620]  Okay, good.
[37:04.840 --> 37:05.740]  Half of a yes.
[37:05.920 --> 37:06.620]  Half of a yes?
[37:06.720 --> 37:07.560]  I don't know what that means.
[37:07.580 --> 37:08.700]  That means not in my name.
[37:08.700 --> 37:11.140]  I'm not the one who pays for it, but I do have access to landlines.
[37:11.160 --> 37:12.660]  In the home where you grew up?
[37:12.840 --> 37:13.580]  Oh, yeah, of course.
[37:13.580 --> 37:14.000]  Was there a land...
[37:14.000 --> 37:14.360]  Of course.
[37:14.500 --> 37:15.460]  Okay, well, some people don't.
[37:15.580 --> 37:16.120]  Okay, vote there.
[37:16.280 --> 37:17.860]  I do, but I'm moving tomorrow and I won't.
[37:18.300 --> 37:18.620]  Okay.
[37:19.720 --> 37:20.640]  Carl, I know you do.
[37:20.780 --> 37:21.500]  Oh, for sure.
[37:21.640 --> 37:27.160]  Yeah, and not only that, but you have a 501 phone, which is the standard desk phone.
[37:27.160 --> 37:31.640]  Yeah, I have a 501 and a punch-down block and all kinds of cool stuff.
[37:31.660 --> 37:34.340]  Well, I have a 302, so that's even older and better.
[37:34.760 --> 37:35.500]  Mike, how about you?
[37:35.640 --> 37:36.940]  Why would I want one of these things?
[37:37.100 --> 37:39.220]  Okay, you were there with RedHacked and Mitch.
[37:39.220 --> 37:40.040]  I'm very curious.
[37:40.200 --> 37:41.280]  I do have one.
[37:41.380 --> 37:42.860]  I've had one all my life.
[37:43.060 --> 37:48.480]  I don't have any use for it at all, except to have DSL, so I don't have to have cable TV in my case.
[37:48.500 --> 37:51.500]  Maybe the use you have for it is to have a clear conversation.
[37:51.700 --> 37:52.100]  Well, it does.
[37:52.100 --> 37:55.940]  I was talking to you on the cell phone earlier and you couldn't hear anything I was saying because of the reception.
[37:56.060 --> 37:56.500]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[37:56.500 --> 38:04.960]  It's really wonderful that in my own apartment with AT&T, I don't have good enough service, so I have to keep a landline so that I can make a phone call in my own place.
[38:05.880 --> 38:06.800]  All right, let's ask Bernie.
[38:06.900 --> 38:07.240]  How about you?
[38:07.800 --> 38:09.160]  Well, I'll put it this way.
[38:09.160 --> 38:13.460]  I don't have a landline in my own name, but where I live, I have access to a landline.
[38:14.060 --> 38:14.780]  That's all I'll say.
[38:14.960 --> 38:19.660]  Okay, you know, climbing the pole in back of your house isn't really what we had in mind.
[38:19.680 --> 38:20.740]  We can all do that.
[38:20.900 --> 38:21.480]  Oh, that counts.
[38:21.480 --> 38:31.760]  But, you know, I'm surprised, Bernie, that you don't use a landline all the time because you appreciate the sound of the clarity of a phone call, especially with the old Amps cell phone system.
[38:31.960 --> 38:32.120]  Wait, wait.
[38:32.300 --> 38:37.880]  And week after week, we talk to you on, I'm sorry, a crappy cell phone and I just wish it sounded better.
[38:37.900 --> 38:40.560]  Wait, Emmanuel, you want your landline phone for making phone calls?
[38:40.740 --> 38:41.280]  Yeah, totally.
[38:41.280 --> 38:42.560]  Why would you want to make phone calls?
[38:42.560 --> 38:43.800]  That's not what phones are for.
[38:43.880 --> 38:46.860]  I like to talk to people sometimes, regardless of what they want.
[38:47.440 --> 38:48.200]  Bernie, go ahead.
[38:48.720 --> 38:53.700]  I want to apologize to the listeners for how I sound over a wireless phone connection.
[38:53.940 --> 38:57.760]  I don't care who your carrier is, whether it's AT&T or Verizon.
[38:57.960 --> 38:59.080]  Bernie, are you doing that in person?
[38:59.240 --> 39:00.180]  Are you doing that on purpose?
[39:00.400 --> 39:03.500]  You're making your phone sound really bad when you're saying how bad it is.
[39:03.500 --> 39:03.720]  No, no, really.
[39:04.440 --> 39:05.760]  I'm not doing anything to make it sound bad.
[39:05.760 --> 39:06.240]  But you're breaking up.
[39:06.400 --> 39:07.860]  You're breaking up as you're talking.
[39:07.860 --> 39:08.620]  Do you realize that?
[39:08.620 --> 39:10.320]  That's so typical.
[39:10.880 --> 39:14.660]  But, you know, it doesn't need to be this bad.
[39:14.880 --> 39:27.920]  The carriers are deliberately squeezing us, mobile users, into such a tiny amount of bandwidth to squeeze more and more customers into their finite amount of spectrum that, you know, we're suffering as a result.
[39:28.560 --> 39:30.720]  Landlines use a different technology.
[39:30.720 --> 39:31.980]  It's been tried and true.
[39:31.980 --> 39:36.680]  And you have a really good amount of voice bandwidth.
[39:36.680 --> 39:38.460]  So that's why people sound so much better.
[39:38.620 --> 39:39.880]  On a landline phone.
[39:40.060 --> 39:41.440]  The mobile carriers could do it.
[39:41.560 --> 39:43.880]  They're choosing not to because they're greedy.
[39:44.200 --> 39:47.460]  Well, I mean, also, you do have increased demand in a short period of time.
[39:47.620 --> 39:49.860]  I mean, over the past decade, how many people...
[39:49.860 --> 39:53.060]  How many more people have cell phones than did before?
[39:53.340 --> 39:56.920]  And, you know, you're still talking about using the same frequency allocations and things.
[39:57.060 --> 40:02.080]  So, I mean, yes, you know, they're squeezing smaller and smaller into the bandwidth.
[40:02.220 --> 40:04.360]  But how much bandwidth do they actually have to play with?
[40:04.360 --> 40:17.960]  Wouldn't it be cool, though, wouldn't it be cool if there was one phone company that just decided to allocate more bandwidth to each call so that if you use that phone company from one end to the other, your calls would sound better?
[40:17.960 --> 40:20.740]  Bernie, is that even remotely possible, technically?
[40:21.360 --> 40:22.660]  I think, yeah, it's very possible.
[40:22.980 --> 40:38.100]  And it might have to use a phone that would, you know, every carrier that buys phones and resells them under their, you know, under their brand has the ability to negotiate with that cell phone manufacturer to have the vocoder set in a way that you would sound better.
[40:38.500 --> 40:40.720]  It would be a really interesting market experiment.
[40:41.020 --> 40:42.300]  The cell phone, it sounds good.
[40:43.320 --> 40:44.820]  I'd like to see somebody buy that.
[40:45.000 --> 40:47.280]  I don't know how successful it would be, but I think it'd be good.
[40:47.460 --> 40:48.320]  Okay, well said.
[40:48.540 --> 40:53.080]  It's important to remember that this is not a result of not having enough spectrum.
[40:53.620 --> 40:56.080]  The lack of bandwidth is because we don't have enough repeaters.
[40:56.260 --> 41:02.180]  The reason we don't have enough repeaters is because there's not enough competition in the cell phone market, and the FCC isn't doing a good job regulating that.
[41:02.960 --> 41:09.160]  Yeah, also talking about the FCC, just to go back to what RedHack said about, you know, bandwidth being limited.
[41:09.560 --> 41:13.880]  There are a lot of people also complain that maybe it's not being allocated efficiently.
[41:14.120 --> 41:23.940]  You know, it's generally, you could say it's sort of being allocated as if it was property, like land you buy and sell when there's so many more efficient ways we could be using it to optimize to do what you were talking about, Emmanuel.
[41:24.140 --> 41:29.540]  But right now, they just choose not to work out a good way to do it.
[41:29.740 --> 41:29.860]  Rob.
[41:29.860 --> 41:41.560]  What's really funny is those of us who remember 20, 30 years ago, when the different landline providers would have commercials and ad campaigns saying how much clearer and how much better the sound quality was on theirs than on their competition.
[41:42.080 --> 41:49.320]  And I think if any of the providers tried to sell their wares on the basis of how good it sounded, they'd all just be laughed off the field today.
[41:49.400 --> 41:53.660]  It's just incredible to me that phone calls 20 years ago sounded much better than phone calls today.
[41:54.100 --> 41:57.720]  And people, kids don't know that because they've never had those kinds of phone calls.
[41:57.720 --> 41:59.160]  But it's true.
[41:59.340 --> 41:59.740]  It's true.
[41:59.900 --> 42:02.840]  And maybe listen to some old shows and hear it for yourself.
[42:03.400 --> 42:04.120]  Voltaire, then we're going to move on.
[42:04.200 --> 42:05.340]  How does it sound in Europe?
[42:05.400 --> 42:10.380]  Because I know that, at least in data range and stuff, they're much, much better than any other civilized country.
[42:10.500 --> 42:19.020]  Well, I mean, you're still using a handset that probably doesn't have the range that you can get from a landline phone.
[42:19.840 --> 42:20.620]  I don't know.
[42:20.860 --> 42:23.200]  Kyle, do you think the phone calls sound better overseas?
[42:23.880 --> 42:25.440]  Are we talking landline phone calls?
[42:25.440 --> 42:26.740]  I think you're talking cell phone, man.
[42:26.880 --> 42:29.120]  At least you won't drop off as much.
[42:29.780 --> 42:31.980]  You tend not to lose reception as much, true.
[42:32.220 --> 42:33.500]  Here in New York, I lose it all the time.
[42:33.660 --> 42:36.020]  But it's still hard to understand people sometimes.
[42:36.300 --> 42:38.120]  I think they're more consistent.
[42:38.320 --> 42:39.580]  I mean, they're signal strength.
[42:39.760 --> 42:43.160]  I mean, you can go on trains and stuff, and they're still going to be intelligible.
[42:43.280 --> 42:46.360]  There's people making calls on trains that are deep underground and stuff.
[42:46.480 --> 42:47.600]  But I don't know.
[42:47.600 --> 42:50.340]  I've never actually been on someone else's phone or talked to anybody.
[42:50.900 --> 42:52.260]  But I've also never...
[42:52.260 --> 42:57.660]  Actually, a couple times I have talked to people, and I've never been cut off or had them be unintelligible.
[42:57.700 --> 42:59.620]  Not as much as you do in the States.
[42:59.900 --> 43:03.520]  It is interesting, though, watching customs of cell phones in other countries.
[43:03.580 --> 43:08.540]  In Germany, for instance, as you say, on trains, underground on trains, you still have full coverage.
[43:08.540 --> 43:11.640]  And people are talking on their phones, talking very quietly because the trains are very quiet.
[43:11.820 --> 43:13.600]  You don't even know people are on cell phones.
[43:14.000 --> 43:16.740]  Then in Paris, you know someone's on a cell phone two blocks away.
[43:16.860 --> 43:18.180]  That's how loud they are sometimes.
[43:18.220 --> 43:19.880]  I don't know what's going on there.
[43:20.600 --> 43:22.760]  So it's fun to watch.
[43:22.880 --> 43:25.120]  But, yeah, it can stand improvement just about everywhere.
[43:25.560 --> 43:26.760]  We want to take some phone calls.
[43:26.840 --> 43:30.580]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[43:30.640 --> 43:31.420]  We love to hear from our listeners.
[43:31.680 --> 43:34.600]  A bit of a milestone for us at 2600.
[43:35.900 --> 43:39.300]  We managed to pull this off, and this is an incredible accomplishment.
[43:39.700 --> 43:42.680]  We are now subscribable on the Kindle.
[43:42.680 --> 43:47.120]  Now, what we did was we had an issue on the Kindle in autumn.
[43:47.120 --> 43:48.800]  What that means was it was an e-book.
[43:48.960 --> 43:49.940]  It was treated as a book.
[43:50.060 --> 43:57.460]  But now we've worked it out so that we're one of only 76 magazines in the world on the Kindle.
[43:57.680 --> 44:00.500]  And that means that it's Time, Newsweek, U.S.
[44:00.560 --> 44:02.720]  News and World Report, The Economist, 2600.
[44:02.860 --> 44:11.640]  We're just sort of thrown in there with all these big guys because very few magazines are using this new technology.
[44:11.640 --> 44:13.260]  And it's kind of an experiment for us.
[44:13.360 --> 44:14.800]  We've never done anything like this before.
[44:15.420 --> 44:22.520]  And basically what you do is you go to the Amazon.com website, scroll down to Kindle, look in magazines, and you'll find us.
[44:23.300 --> 44:27.880]  We're ranked based on, I guess, best-selling list.
[44:27.960 --> 44:29.980]  And we started, obviously, at the bottom at number 76.
[44:30.200 --> 44:32.240]  We've crept all the way up to number 60.
[44:32.460 --> 44:38.680]  And the thing is if we go up, if we're able to get higher up, we actually will show up on the front page.
[44:38.680 --> 44:44.120]  And people who have never heard of Hacker Perspective before are going to actually see it in the mainstream.
[44:44.120 --> 44:46.640]  And that's really, that's an incredible hack right there.
[44:47.260 --> 44:52.620]  And the fact that very few other magazines are taking advantage of this, I think, is pretty incredible.
[44:53.900 --> 45:01.220]  So I guess it would really help if people spread the word, if we had reviews written about us, up our standing a little bit.
[45:01.320 --> 45:02.560]  And who knows?
[45:02.560 --> 45:05.060]  We might be right there on the front page.
[45:05.340 --> 45:06.340]  Yeah, now's our chance.
[45:06.340 --> 45:09.240]  We might be able to get the public to actually use the word hacker right.
[45:09.380 --> 45:10.060]  In a good way.
[45:10.080 --> 45:10.360]  Yeah.
[45:10.620 --> 45:11.260]  It's quite possible.
[45:11.260 --> 45:14.440]  When can I buy an electronic edition for my Atari 2600?
[45:14.540 --> 45:15.660]  Okay, here's the thing.
[45:16.500 --> 45:17.180]  Here's the thing.
[45:17.320 --> 45:21.560]  Every time we do something, there are people who want us to do it in a different way, with a different format.
[45:21.660 --> 45:22.300]  And, you know, we're trying.
[45:22.400 --> 45:23.540]  We're trying every single pot.
[45:23.620 --> 45:24.340]  We're trying with the Nook.
[45:24.440 --> 45:28.020]  We're trying with iPad and PDFs and things like that.
[45:28.360 --> 45:29.420]  It takes time.
[45:29.560 --> 45:30.940]  It takes time to do all these things.
[45:30.960 --> 45:32.140]  And there's all kinds of conditions.
[45:32.740 --> 45:38.480]  Amazon had a very bad policy for magazine publishers as recently as a month ago.
[45:39.200 --> 45:40.360]  And I'll tell you what it is.
[45:40.360 --> 45:43.800]  It's basically publishers would get 30% of the price.
[45:43.920 --> 45:45.240]  The price that Amazon set.
[45:45.460 --> 45:46.900]  The publishers didn't even get to set the price.
[45:47.040 --> 45:47.840]  They only got 30%.
[45:47.840 --> 45:49.440]  Amazon got 70%.
[45:50.000 --> 45:51.100]  Not very good.
[45:51.500 --> 45:55.000]  And as of December 1st, that was finally fixed.
[45:55.040 --> 45:56.540]  And they basically flipped it.
[45:56.540 --> 46:00.000]  So it's 70, 30 to the publisher, which is as it should be.
[46:01.100 --> 46:07.800]  So that opens the doors for more magazines to get similar rates as e-books do.
[46:08.400 --> 46:10.660]  But so far, very few have taken advantage of that.
[46:10.760 --> 46:17.900]  So we're hoping to be able to educate people as to how it all works, whether it's something that's viable for publishers of any sort.
[46:18.920 --> 46:20.460]  But it's important to get the word out.
[46:20.620 --> 46:21.780]  And we're trying to do that.
[46:21.900 --> 46:25.360]  We're trying to let people know that, yes, there's a way you can get the magazine electronically.
[46:25.620 --> 46:28.920]  And I think it comes automatically to your Kindle every quarter now.
[46:29.060 --> 46:30.600]  All you have to do is click on it.
[46:30.940 --> 46:32.380]  So it's cool.
[46:32.400 --> 46:33.440]  It's a lot of fun.
[46:33.480 --> 46:35.860]  And we're trying all sorts of different things.
[46:35.960 --> 46:36.260]  I saw it.
[46:36.260 --> 46:40.500]  I was in Europe, had the Kindle over there, and saw it showing up on the list.
[46:40.760 --> 46:42.560]  And it was pretty neat.
[46:44.120 --> 46:44.500]  Congratulations.
[46:44.960 --> 46:45.420]  Why, thank you.
[46:45.520 --> 46:45.800]  Thank you.
[46:45.880 --> 46:54.880]  And congratulations to all the people who worked on this, including Junce and Dave and you, Kyle, and other people who just put a lot of time into this.
[46:55.760 --> 46:56.520]  We really...
[46:56.960 --> 46:57.720]  It's a milestone.
[46:57.840 --> 46:59.040]  And there will be more milestones, too.
[46:59.280 --> 47:00.060]  We're trying...
[47:00.060 --> 47:02.680]  We're plunging into electronic publishing like we've never done before.
[47:02.680 --> 47:03.760]  And it's fun.
[47:03.760 --> 47:06.340]  It's a really cool spirit of experimentation.
[47:06.700 --> 47:11.660]  And I think if anybody can tackle this, it's us.
[47:11.840 --> 47:20.120]  I mean, we're the type of people that can take things apart and look at it and try to understand what these companies are doing and how this industry is going to evolve.
[47:20.360 --> 47:22.480]  And I think you spoke to this a little bit.
[47:22.980 --> 47:27.460]  It's still evolving for the industry itself.
[47:27.600 --> 47:31.920]  Like some of these companies, they don't even really know how to present different policies and things are changing.
[47:31.920 --> 47:37.300]  I mean, just having that pricing structure change and us initially releasing it as a book.
[47:37.400 --> 47:47.220]  And now we've got this wonderful thing where you can subscribe and you're basically attached to the magazine, just like you would be a lifetime subscriber to the paper edition or something like that.
[47:47.340 --> 47:47.540]  Right.
[47:47.540 --> 47:50.900]  So, yeah, I'm really thrilled and I think this is going to be really cool.
[47:51.000 --> 47:57.800]  We're trying to change the playing field so that it's fairer to the people who read the material.
[47:57.800 --> 47:59.080]  For instance, DRM.
[47:59.200 --> 48:00.620]  We want to get rid of DRM.
[48:01.020 --> 48:03.100]  I believe right now it's a default setting.
[48:03.100 --> 48:06.120]  It might not even be something that is changeable right away for magazines.
[48:06.120 --> 48:10.800]  And we're basically trying to change that by being one of the players.
[48:11.180 --> 48:13.120]  We have a much better chance of doing that.
[48:13.240 --> 48:16.680]  And again, the higher we rank, the more weight we have.
[48:16.840 --> 48:18.440]  That's a very important fact.
[48:19.120 --> 48:31.440]  So, we're collecting all that information and helping to spread it around and all sorts of other things that people are concerned about regarding the way this sort of platform works.
[48:31.840 --> 48:37.640]  And we want to do that so that more and more small publishers are able to take advantage of this.
[48:37.720 --> 48:37.820]  Rob?
[48:37.960 --> 48:48.080]  And another thing you can do if, like me, you don't use the Kindle platform or you're not into e-magazines yet, if you're still into giving us a hand, go on there and find the digital edition and just put a review on it.
[48:48.080 --> 48:49.220]  Tell us what you think of the magazine.
[48:49.460 --> 48:49.700]  Yes.
[48:49.940 --> 48:50.540]  Reviews help.
[48:50.720 --> 48:52.120]  Reviews help they get the discussion going.
[48:52.380 --> 48:52.760]  Exactly.
[48:53.460 --> 48:56.380]  And if there are more platforms, we're trying to get to them.
[48:56.540 --> 48:58.440]  I understand it works for Android.
[48:59.180 --> 49:02.680]  There's a Kindle application for Android and for iPad, but not all of them.
[49:02.720 --> 49:03.480]  I'm not really sure.
[49:03.720 --> 49:04.900]  We have people working on it.
[49:04.960 --> 49:10.120]  If there's something that you notice that doesn't work, let us know and we will try and get to it.
[49:10.320 --> 49:19.460]  We have a special email address, ezine at 2600.com, E-Z-I-N-E, for people reading the electronic edition to give us information, feedback, that kind of thing.
[49:19.580 --> 49:24.080]  But again, go to amazon.com, go to the Kindle magazine section and you'll find us.
[49:24.240 --> 49:25.500]  We're creeping up.
[49:25.840 --> 49:29.560]  I think we're around 60 now out of 76.
[49:30.240 --> 49:34.340]  And in the UK, there's a UK version and we're even higher up because there's less magazines there.
[49:34.420 --> 49:37.100]  I think there's only 50 magazines there and we're number 26.
[49:37.360 --> 49:38.060]  So that's not bad.
[49:38.140 --> 49:39.440]  For three days, that's not bad.
[49:40.360 --> 49:41.720]  So we'll see where this goes.
[49:42.020 --> 49:48.840]  And look out for us in other places because we're aware of all these things, DRM, all the things that are going on with this.
[49:48.860 --> 49:50.520]  And we want to hear what people have to say.
[49:50.720 --> 49:52.660]  We're working on the aesthetic for the different formats.
[49:52.680 --> 50:00.940]  And especially with all the things we've been discussing in the last few minutes, all the controversy happening, we need a way of reaching people.
[50:00.940 --> 50:03.460]  We need a way to give other people a voice.
[50:03.640 --> 50:05.360]  And that's so important.
[50:05.360 --> 50:12.120]  When you go to things like the Chaos Communication Congress, you meet people who desperately need to reach others.
[50:13.040 --> 50:15.400]  And magazines are still a great way to do that.
[50:16.220 --> 50:16.460]  All right.
[50:16.660 --> 50:17.940]  Red Hack, then we'll take some phone calls.
[50:18.080 --> 50:20.420]  I have a question about the whole thing.
[50:20.520 --> 50:24.540]  So when someone becomes a subscriber, does it say how often it's delivered?
[50:24.560 --> 50:26.720]  Or can you put intermediate things?
[50:26.820 --> 50:31.000]  So say you wanted to publish, say, a calendar of events in the coming year.
[50:31.080 --> 50:32.680]  Could you send that out automatically?
[50:32.680 --> 50:34.020]  Or is that not possible?
[50:34.060 --> 50:34.680]  That's a good question.
[50:34.680 --> 50:37.540]  Well, we right now are listed as a quarterly, so...
[50:37.540 --> 50:40.820]  But does that actually limit you to publishing as a quarterly?
[50:41.000 --> 50:43.600]  Or can you, you know, like I said, maybe put a calendar or something?
[50:43.800 --> 50:46.500]  Well, we're working with the Amazon people, and they're fairly responsive.
[50:46.620 --> 50:48.060]  It took a while to get them to be responsive.
[50:48.160 --> 50:50.480]  We finally have found the right people, so they answer us.
[50:50.700 --> 50:53.200]  We can probably do something like that if we wanted to.
[50:53.280 --> 50:57.660]  But I think right now we're set to come out four times a year at particular times.
[50:58.520 --> 50:59.900]  There are all kinds of conditions.
[51:01.040 --> 51:05.940]  The electronic edition has to be out before the printed edition has to be out.
[51:06.060 --> 51:09.000]  Even if it's five minutes before, they just have to get it first.
[51:09.400 --> 51:11.180]  Amazon has to have the lowest price.
[51:11.600 --> 51:12.420]  That's another thing.
[51:12.520 --> 51:13.440]  That's an interesting fact.
[51:13.640 --> 51:19.800]  It makes it a little harder for us to do it with the Nook because we have to figure out ways to make that available, but not at a lower price.
[51:20.400 --> 51:23.780]  And since we don't actually set the price, that also makes it a bit of a challenge.
[51:23.780 --> 51:27.380]  But these are all things that we're confronting and spreading.
[51:27.400 --> 51:38.740]  I was just curious if when someone subscribes, if there's also the possibility of having an alternative channel just to say, well, there's this thing that we're not going to print, but maybe it would be good for subscribers.
[51:38.740 --> 51:39.560]  I'm just curious.
[51:39.560 --> 51:40.320]  That's a good idea.
[51:40.480 --> 51:46.620]  And I like to try all sorts of different ways of doing innovative things with the technology because it's a great technology.
[51:46.800 --> 51:47.500]  It really is amazing.
[51:47.980 --> 51:53.000]  Four times a year, it automatically comes to your Kindle, to your machine, and you can just read it automatically.
[51:53.780 --> 51:59.260]  I was in an airport and I just bought the New York Times because I needed something to read while I was waiting for a plane.
[51:59.360 --> 52:00.220]  And it was cool.
[52:00.380 --> 52:00.720]  It arrived.
[52:00.960 --> 52:05.860]  If anyone listening has an answer to Redhack's question, just email us and let us know.
[52:05.980 --> 52:06.840]  Amazon would probably know.
[52:07.020 --> 52:08.480]  Or if someone from Amazon...
[52:08.480 --> 52:10.000]  Yeah, but good luck getting a response from them.
[52:10.080 --> 52:11.460]  It's not the easiest thing in the world.
[52:11.580 --> 52:13.060]  OTH at 2600.com.
[52:13.180 --> 52:13.940]  That's our email address.
[52:14.260 --> 52:16.020]  Let's take some phone calls from our listeners.
[52:16.120 --> 52:16.460]  Good evening.
[52:16.700 --> 52:17.820]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:19.840 --> 52:20.560]  Oh, yes.
[52:20.840 --> 52:21.840]  That's a great sound, isn't it?
[52:23.120 --> 52:24.360]  But, let's try this one.
[52:24.440 --> 52:24.720]  Good evening.
[52:24.900 --> 52:25.880]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:26.480 --> 52:26.720]  Yes.
[52:27.160 --> 52:30.560]  I noticed I went to a car rental agency to rent a car.
[52:30.740 --> 52:36.080]  And, you know, I can't even rent a car because they could go on the website or call the number.
[52:36.080 --> 52:38.160]  Rebel, why aren't you using a landline?
[52:39.540 --> 52:40.940]  Because I'm not at home.
[52:41.080 --> 52:41.300]  That's why.
[52:41.340 --> 52:43.180]  But, Rebel, you should go home, really.
[52:43.440 --> 52:44.540]  You really should go home.
[52:45.820 --> 52:46.440]  Get home.
[52:46.540 --> 52:47.380]  No one will rent him a car.
[52:47.700 --> 52:48.960]  He needs a car to get home?
[52:49.120 --> 52:49.500]  I don't know.
[52:52.560 --> 52:53.300]  Good evening.
[52:53.460 --> 52:54.280]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:55.760 --> 52:56.500]  Hello, yes.
[52:57.360 --> 53:03.540]  I just want to talk about the basic terminology that have been used for hackers.
[53:03.740 --> 53:08.000]  And I know Emmanuel doesn't like calling people like anonymous or what they do, hacking.
[53:08.460 --> 53:09.700]  Well, it depends what they do.
[53:09.700 --> 53:15.040]  If it's just shutting down a site because they don't like it, no, I don't consider that hacking.
[53:15.160 --> 53:16.260]  But go ahead with your point.
[53:16.260 --> 53:24.260]  Well, I mean, now that nation states are blackhatting, I mean, what do you call it when people are just trying to basically...
[53:24.260 --> 53:24.780]  Blackhatting?
[53:24.880 --> 53:26.100]  And when did blackhat become a verb?
[53:26.640 --> 53:27.820]  Well, maybe tonight.
[53:28.060 --> 53:29.320]  But look at Stucknet.
[53:29.820 --> 53:30.380]  Stucknet.
[53:30.760 --> 53:33.580]  It's either Israel or the United States that sent us to Iran.
[53:33.740 --> 53:35.500]  And the U.S.
[53:35.540 --> 53:44.340]  Cyber Command now, set up in Virginia, whose basic job is to come up with all sorts of what I see as blackhatting.
[53:44.340 --> 53:50.480]  I mean, the military's already said that the biggest threat to them right now is the domestic Internet.
[53:51.760 --> 53:52.700]  I think we have...
[53:52.700 --> 53:55.400]  By blackhatting, do you mean just trying to shut somebody down?
[53:56.080 --> 53:56.880]  Yeah, blackhat...
[53:56.880 --> 54:00.520]  I mean, you know, cracking, whatever you call blackhatting, bad guy, you know.
[54:01.140 --> 54:05.280]  Preventing somebody from getting anything done, shutting down their site, just overwhelming them with data.
[54:05.400 --> 54:05.980]  Is that what you mean?
[54:06.080 --> 54:06.400]  Oh, malicious.
[54:06.660 --> 54:06.860]  Yeah.
[54:07.200 --> 54:08.320]  Okay, well, that's...
[54:08.320 --> 54:09.240]  You know, there's nothing new.
[54:09.380 --> 54:10.340]  People have been doing that.
[54:10.480 --> 54:13.800]  Government's been doing that for as long as they have existed.
[54:14.340 --> 54:16.640]  And it's got nothing to do with hacking.
[54:16.800 --> 54:20.700]  It's got to do with bullying and simply trying to drown out the opposition.
[54:21.620 --> 54:25.100]  Now, what do we call people with technical skills who try to resist that?
[54:25.360 --> 54:26.720]  You don't want them to be called hackers.
[54:27.480 --> 54:35.680]  Anybody who tries to resist something or even implement something with ingenuity can be using a form of hacking to do that.
[54:35.680 --> 54:49.480]  But once you cross over the line and start doing things that have other names associated with them, whether they be stealing or vandalizing or intimidating, you know, the hacker part simply isn't there anymore.
[54:50.260 --> 54:53.000]  What do you call electronic civil disobedience?
[54:53.300 --> 54:54.020]  I'm sorry, what?
[54:54.560 --> 54:56.980]  I look at it as electronic civil disobedience.
[54:57.220 --> 54:59.620]  Well, civil disobedience, it's...
[54:59.620 --> 55:01.340]  I mean, it's a very complicated issue.
[55:01.500 --> 55:10.960]  But civil disobedience usually doesn't involve having an overwhelming force against a weaker force.
[55:10.960 --> 55:20.860]  Usually, the people engaged in civil disobedience are the weaker force against a monolithic, evil entity that's all-encompassing and intimidating themselves.
[55:21.220 --> 55:21.760]  Go ahead, Voltaire.
[55:21.940 --> 55:30.480]  Well, when it's folks like anonymous or people with a political viewpoint that are trying to shut down a business that's being unethical, then I think that is civil disobedience.
[55:30.500 --> 55:34.000]  Yeah, but you know, when you engage in civil disobedience, generally, you're not anonymous.
[55:34.000 --> 55:37.580]  You're putting your ass on the line in front of a bunch of cops or something like that.
[55:37.580 --> 55:38.340]  That takes courage.
[55:38.600 --> 55:43.280]  Just doing something and not having any risk of being caught, which many people do.
[55:43.480 --> 55:45.680]  But they have been caught, and they're not putting their...
[55:45.680 --> 55:50.100]  Not because they were putting themselves on the line, because they did something stupid and didn't cover their ass enough.
[55:50.140 --> 55:50.980]  But I don't think it's stupid.
[55:51.080 --> 55:53.160]  I mean, I don't think it's particularly effective.
[55:53.160 --> 55:56.980]  Well, if they got caught and they were trying to hide, yeah, then they don't know what they're doing.
[55:57.040 --> 55:58.620]  I don't think they were necessarily trying to hide their...
[55:58.620 --> 56:05.080]  If you stand up for something and you believe in what you're doing, yeah, there's courage in that for sure.
[56:05.080 --> 56:10.360]  But I don't think shutting down a website by drowning it out is the way to do that.
[56:10.440 --> 56:11.140]  But that's my opinion.
[56:11.380 --> 56:18.640]  Well, there is a difference between doing something that you think is honorable and doing over the electronic medium and doing something that is necessarily hacking.
[56:19.980 --> 56:22.800]  I'm not going to weigh in on what I consider whether this is hacking or not.
[56:22.900 --> 56:30.420]  What I'll just simply say is that this argument that you're listening to right now, you could equate to what people, when they argue over what exactly is art and what isn't art.
[56:30.860 --> 56:37.100]  You have people doing splats of paint on walls or these twisted sculptures that you see in various parts of Manhattan.
[56:37.100 --> 56:39.660]  And people say, oh, that so-called modern art is an art.
[56:39.760 --> 56:41.100]  It's the exact same kind of thing.
[56:41.420 --> 56:43.600]  On one end, you have one kind of behavior.
[56:43.600 --> 56:45.100]  On the other end, you have a different kind of behavior.
[56:45.100 --> 56:47.480]  And people argue for where exactly that line really is.
[56:47.540 --> 56:55.300]  I'd like to actually read something from Rob's keynote address at the Chaos Communication Congress, which kind of relates to this.
[56:56.520 --> 56:59.120]  Regarding WikiLeaks, we also need to calm down a bit.
[56:59.120 --> 57:03.080]  There's obviously some very big things going on here that we need to keep watching intently.
[57:03.260 --> 57:13.540]  But just because we like or share some of the principles at stake here doesn't mean our community is all of a sudden drawn into a war with a ridiculously well-armed superpower or with anyone else.
[57:13.620 --> 57:19.180]  Whatever our role is, it is certainly not to deny freedom of speech to people or organizations who don't like freedom of speech.
[57:19.340 --> 57:22.660]  This whole anonymous thing is so getting on my nerves.
[57:22.860 --> 57:26.440]  People ask me, anonymous, that is the hacker striking back, right?
[57:26.440 --> 57:34.440]  And then I have to explain that unlike anonymous, people in this community would probably not issue press releases with our real names in the PDF metadata.
[57:34.660 --> 57:38.820]  And that if this community were to get involved, the targets would probably be offline more often.
[57:39.140 --> 57:41.060]  So that's something definitely true.
[57:41.060 --> 57:41.060]  Wait, wait.
[57:41.060 --> 57:43.880]  So that's Rob's criticism of anonymous is that they're incompetent?
[57:44.640 --> 57:51.820]  Well, no, that's just a side thing that, you know, if they were really adept at what they were doing, they would do a much more effective job.
[57:51.900 --> 57:53.240]  But it's not really what we should be.
[57:53.240 --> 57:56.820]  I think that's really like the least interesting question we can ask is how can they be made more confident?
[57:57.260 --> 57:59.520]  Rob's keynote is, I'd highly recommend it.
[57:59.600 --> 58:05.300]  I think it's 27C3 just on YouTube, 27C3 keynote, Rob.
[58:05.300 --> 58:07.480]  And it's really worth watching.
[58:07.640 --> 58:11.940]  Just look up 27C3, which is the 27th Chaos Communication Congress.
[58:12.780 --> 58:15.300]  CCC.de is the website for everything else.
[58:15.520 --> 58:17.600]  Guys, we're out of time, but it's been a fascinating discussion.
[58:17.860 --> 58:21.160]  Again, our email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:21.440 --> 58:27.640]  I invite you to email us and visit our website, www.2600.com as well.
[58:28.000 --> 58:32.920]  We will see you next week with who knows what's going to happen between now and then.
[58:33.040 --> 58:34.500]  But it's probably going to be interesting.
[58:35.300 --> 58:36.160]  Enjoy the snow.
[58:39.720 --> 59:02.140]  Oh, the weather outside is frightful But the fire is so delightful And since we have no place to go Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow It doesn't show signs of stopping And I brought some corn for popping The lights are turned way down low Let it snow,
[59:02.340 --> 59:27.640]  let it snow, let it snow When we finally kiss goodnight I'll hate going out in the storm But if you really hold me tight All the way home I'll be warm The fire is slowly dying But my dear, we're still goodbye As long as you love me so Let it snow, let it snow,
[59:27.820 --> 59:28.540]  let it snow
[01:00:18.610 --> 01:00:39.750]  Oh, the weather outside is frightful But the fire is so delightful And since we have no place to go Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow It doesn't show signs of stopping And I brought some corn for popping The lights are turned way down low.
[01:00:40.170 --> 01:00:42.830]  Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.
[01:00:43.330 --> 01:00:48.990]  When we finally kiss goodnight, I'll hate going out in the storm.
[01:00:49.610 --> 01:00:55.450]  But if you really hold me tight, all the way home I'll be warm.
[01:00:55.450 --> 01:01:01.650]  The fire is slowly dying, and my dear, we're still good-bying.
[01:01:02.170 --> 01:01:07.570]  As long as you love me so, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.
[01:01:13.350 --> 01:01:18.010]  You tune to WBAI in New York, listener-sponsored radio.