[00:02.370 --> 00:09.310]  Somewhere between the light of day and edge of night lies the Five O'Clock Shadow.
[00:12.530 --> 00:15.770]  Cutting Edge Journalism with Robert Knight.
[00:16.270 --> 00:24.290]  Exploring domestic and international affairs with live interviews and produced segments and a daily war summary.
[00:26.750 --> 00:29.850]  On the Razor's Edge with Robert Knight.
[00:30.270 --> 00:35.430]  That's Five O'Clock Shadow on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:35.450 --> 00:38.410]  Monday through Thursday at the Obvious Time.
[00:42.990 --> 00:45.530]  And you're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:45.730 --> 00:47.350]  The time is seven o'clock.
[00:47.570 --> 00:49.050]  Time for Off the Hook.
[00:54.390 --> 00:56.330]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[00:56.810 --> 00:58.870]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[00:59.830 --> 01:01.830]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:02.430 --> 01:04.370]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:04.990 --> 01:07.190]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:07.190 --> 01:10.670]  Good, fun, really, bomb.
[01:10.850 --> 01:12.630]  But the best is back the worst.
[01:13.330 --> 01:15.130]  I hope that's understood.
[01:15.490 --> 01:16.130]  Fun, really, boom!
[02:01.340 --> 02:03.320]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:03.320 --> 02:04.760]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:05.300 --> 02:07.580]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:08.240 --> 02:09.760]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:10.340 --> 02:10.480]  Mike.
[02:10.980 --> 02:11.460]  Dotrett.
[02:12.140 --> 02:12.300]  Hello.
[02:12.600 --> 02:13.020]  Rob T.
[02:13.240 --> 02:13.760]  Firefly.
[02:14.080 --> 02:14.460]  Good evening.
[02:14.460 --> 02:15.080]  Kyle.
[02:15.600 --> 02:16.040]  Yeah, what up?
[02:16.860 --> 02:18.200]  And Voltaire.
[02:18.400 --> 02:18.540]  Hi.
[02:18.780 --> 02:19.100]  Jim.
[02:19.420 --> 02:19.600]  Hello.
[02:20.160 --> 02:20.620]  Bernie S.
[02:20.720 --> 02:21.400]  down in Philadelphia.
[02:22.040 --> 02:23.080]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:23.860 --> 02:27.040]  And we're here tonight on yet another snowy night this winter.
[02:27.980 --> 02:30.820]  Talking about all kinds of interesting things having to do with technology.
[02:31.180 --> 02:33.840]  And of course, you can write to us.
[02:34.160 --> 02:35.880]  OTH at 2600.com.
[02:35.880 --> 02:43.260]  That's our email address with all kinds of submissions, experiences, things that you'd like to share with us.
[02:44.140 --> 02:48.500]  Now, we're going to start off with an interesting story that is just unfolding today, actually.
[02:48.940 --> 02:54.080]  It has to do with the public transport system over in the Netherlands.
[02:55.100 --> 02:58.720]  There's this card that was introduced fairly recently.
[02:59.720 --> 03:01.280]  I don't know how to pronounce this.
[03:01.440 --> 03:04.840]  It's the OV chip card, I think, is the actual name of it.
[03:04.840 --> 03:10.160]  And it's supposedly the same kind of card that's used in Boston, known as the Charlie card.
[03:11.620 --> 03:21.420]  Supposedly, this card, in addition to being kind of controversial because of its privacy implications, using RFID and all that, it isn't very secure.
[03:21.500 --> 03:25.440]  And a bunch of hackers over in the Netherlands have been trying to prove this.
[03:26.040 --> 03:32.980]  And, well, we have our friend Breno on the line, who hopefully will tell us what these hackers have accomplished.
[03:34.380 --> 03:35.600]  Yeah, hey, good evening.
[03:35.900 --> 03:41.020]  Hey, what happened in the Netherlands is that for a couple of years the chip has been cracked.
[03:41.360 --> 03:42.940]  But it was all, like, academic.
[03:43.360 --> 03:49.020]  And the government has been saying that it is not a problem and everything is okay.
[03:49.300 --> 03:55.800]  Now, what you need to understand is this card is mandatory for public transportation in the entire country of the Netherlands.
[03:55.800 --> 03:57.980]  Or, at least, that's what they want to make it.
[03:58.360 --> 04:10.260]  Now, I've written an article of four pages where I explained that there's now software available for Windows that everybody can use if you know where to find it.
[04:10.560 --> 04:16.400]  And I've been traveling the public transportation for three weeks and have not been caught with it.
[04:17.240 --> 04:25.300]  Now, they did detect some of the fraud, and they went to the public prosecutor, but they never could stop me.
[04:26.120 --> 04:34.100]  And besides me, National Television and a bunch of other journalists have been traveling on this hacked cart.
[04:34.900 --> 04:38.860]  And that was yesterday that we came public.
[04:38.860 --> 04:41.500]  And then this company said, like, don't worry about it.
[04:41.560 --> 04:43.680]  We can detect all sorts of fraud.
[04:44.580 --> 04:47.400]  And today, I said, like, well, wait a minute.
[04:47.740 --> 04:57.500]  I've got this little application where I, and I'll explain it in a second, can check myself in at home so that you can never find it in your back office.
[04:57.700 --> 05:00.000]  So never find it in your central system.
[05:00.480 --> 05:05.730]  And this company has today acknowledged that that type of fraud is undetectable.
[05:08.380 --> 05:09.180]  I see.
[05:09.380 --> 05:09.540]  Interesting.
[05:09.540 --> 05:16.860]  So the company that made the cards agrees with you that you can ride on the public transit for free, and they don't even know.
[05:18.080 --> 05:18.560]  Yes.
[05:18.720 --> 05:23.860]  Well, they will know as soon as you check in at one of those gates.
[05:24.340 --> 05:27.360]  Because then, of course, there's a registration taking place.
[05:27.520 --> 05:32.520]  But it takes days before they can find out that there is some kind of fraud going on.
[05:33.320 --> 05:38.180]  And now what I've added to that is, well, ignore the entire gate.
[05:38.600 --> 05:42.220]  Sit in a train and check yourself in on your laptop.
[05:43.480 --> 05:51.720]  And tonight I was on the train back, and one of the train conductors had seen me on television and asked me, can you show it to me?
[05:51.940 --> 05:55.160]  And we've been testing for a little over an hour.
[05:56.540 --> 06:00.260]  And no scenario that we could think of they could detect.
[06:01.520 --> 06:05.300]  So the conductors are actually interested in how the technology works.
[06:05.420 --> 06:13.260]  Have you had any kind of backlash, any kind of calls for prosecution, for daring to find a way to trick their system?
[06:14.000 --> 06:14.480]  Yes.
[06:14.740 --> 06:19.700]  There was today somebody on the train that said to me that, I hope you will be prosecuted.
[06:20.020 --> 06:20.880]  That's nice.
[06:20.880 --> 06:30.260]  Yeah, since there are 10 journalists involved in this entire case, I said to this lady, I hope that they will prosecute me too.
[06:31.500 --> 06:35.380]  Because the national interest is fairly obvious.
[06:35.580 --> 06:50.700]  If you invest 3 billion euros, which is like nearly 4 billion dollars, in a system to make public transportation safer, and the first Windows application can undo that, then I think there's a big national interest.
[06:51.520 --> 06:52.040]  Absolutely.
[06:52.920 --> 07:03.860]  Brennan, we had you on the program at the end of last year, talking from the Chaos Communication Congress, and you were talking about various Freedom of Information Act requests that you made as a journalist.
[07:04.320 --> 07:12.940]  You seem to get involved in this kind of thing quite often, exposing weaknesses and just getting to the root of various stories, like any journalist should do.
[07:12.940 --> 07:16.040]  First of all, how did that case turn out?
[07:16.420 --> 07:21.500]  And where do you see this case going, this story that you broke today going?
[07:22.660 --> 07:25.260]  Well, tomorrow, and let's start with this story.
[07:25.560 --> 07:31.920]  And tomorrow in Parliament, the Minister of Transportation will give her view on it.
[07:32.740 --> 07:33.980]  And most...
[07:33.980 --> 07:36.440]  Yeah, it's hard to say what will happen exactly.
[07:36.740 --> 07:41.180]  Well, you might push ahead, but then I've got a couple of tricks still up my sleeve.
[07:42.180 --> 07:48.560]  The logic thing would now be to can discard and go back to paper, because paper basically works.
[07:49.880 --> 07:57.640]  On the other case, on the Freedom of Information Act, and the city that has been charging money for it, that was kind of dramatic.
[07:58.060 --> 08:02.780]  What I did, I claimed that they've been hindering my work.
[08:03.460 --> 08:14.540]  And the judge was very interested, and she decided to take six weeks of time to rule, because she basically said that charging me money is not possible.
[08:15.140 --> 08:23.560]  But what I did is I turned it around and said, like, if you're hindering freedom of speech, basically, I should be compensated for my time here.
[08:23.820 --> 08:25.600]  And she's now considering that.
[08:26.340 --> 08:28.780]  I'm fairly optimistic about that, actually.
[08:29.020 --> 08:36.260]  And the city basically said before we went to court that they would appeal the verdict if they were to lose.
[08:36.580 --> 08:39.620]  And the judge went really ballistic on that.
[08:39.620 --> 08:48.140]  And she really, she hated that they were already, before there is an outcome that they already decided to appeal this.
[08:48.660 --> 08:50.300]  And she turned red.
[08:50.500 --> 08:52.140]  So that was kind of interesting.
[08:52.540 --> 08:55.520]  Well, if you can ever get a judge to turn red, you must be doing something right.
[08:56.640 --> 08:57.740]  Now, uh...
[08:57.740 --> 09:06.500]  Yeah, what's funny, by the way, it was, the outcome is fairly obvious, that, you know, you cannot charge money for a FOIA request in the Netherlands.
[09:06.500 --> 09:09.640]  So she had planned only 20 minutes.
[09:10.160 --> 09:13.920]  But because of their attitudes, the whole session lasted an hour.
[09:14.580 --> 09:16.280]  And it was kind of funny, actually.
[09:16.520 --> 09:17.660]  We had a good time.
[09:18.260 --> 09:20.940]  Well, that's great to hear things end that way.
[09:21.020 --> 09:24.640]  And I imagine over there that happens more than over here.
[09:24.780 --> 09:29.200]  They charge us for a freedom of information request per page.
[09:29.200 --> 09:32.700]  And if they give us anything at all, and usually it has a whole lot of black marks on it.
[09:33.400 --> 09:39.380]  Well, that's in logic, because you've paid taxes to have the documents be drafted in the first place.
[09:39.860 --> 09:44.960]  I like your assumption that the laws in this country, or your country, or any country, are based on logic.
[09:47.660 --> 09:48.140]  Yeah.
[09:48.940 --> 09:54.240]  Yeah, well, after the story on the chip card, that's a very true remark.
[09:54.240 --> 10:01.420]  Now, Breno, you had some concerns about this transit card in the Netherlands, the privacy concerns.
[10:01.500 --> 10:02.720]  Can you tell us something about that?
[10:03.460 --> 10:03.700]  Yes.
[10:04.600 --> 10:11.180]  The biggest thing with this public transportation card is you have to check in and check out every time.
[10:11.260 --> 10:13.760]  And every time there will be a record in a database.
[10:14.440 --> 10:17.360]  These records are being stored for seven years.
[10:17.360 --> 10:22.340]  Now, the big thing is that you've got anonymous cards and personal cards.
[10:22.540 --> 10:25.480]  And if you want a discount, you have to have a personal card.
[10:25.780 --> 10:33.140]  So the company knows where you have been in the Netherlands, at what point in time, for seven years.
[10:33.800 --> 10:43.960]  And as you can imagine, that district attorney or any government agency that has the authority to do so is very interested in this database.
[10:43.960 --> 10:47.700]  So it's like the government watching you all the time.
[10:47.860 --> 10:49.600]  And that is really scary.
[10:49.920 --> 10:56.220]  And the thing about this company is that they are not transparent on what they want to do with the data.
[10:57.180 --> 11:01.500]  So that makes the card in itself a nightmare scenario.
[11:02.120 --> 11:09.380]  And now what I've proven this week is that of all the benefits they've promised us, they can deliver at none.
[11:11.300 --> 11:11.720]  Interesting.
[11:11.720 --> 11:18.260]  So you, of course, you went on television, on the Dutch television, and told everyone you're doing this so they know about you.
[11:18.280 --> 11:24.980]  But it's possible that there are people who are just writing for free and not appearing on television, and no one knows about them.
[11:25.960 --> 11:29.160]  Well, the company denies it because they haven't detected this.
[11:29.480 --> 11:30.560]  That's what they claim.
[11:30.560 --> 11:36.200]  I know of six hackers, at least, that, on a regular basis, travel on a hacked card.
[11:36.800 --> 11:47.860]  And one of the hackers, somewhat older man, said to me, and you don't think that this group of six is really, that you know is really the group that is traveling illegally.
[11:47.860 --> 11:53.660]  So my assumption is that there is a whole bunch of people abusing cards.
[11:53.660 --> 11:59.000]  The only thing is why I was detected is that I did everything to be detected.
[12:00.020 --> 12:03.980]  I, I, what I wanted to prove is that their bank office is failing.
[12:04.920 --> 12:11.380]  So I did the most extreme things I could think of whenever they were checking in a train or in a bus.
[12:11.580 --> 12:14.360]  You know, I walked up there like, can you check my card, please?
[12:14.880 --> 12:18.820]  And I've been checked in these three weeks for over 100 times.
[12:19.660 --> 12:22.020]  And they never, ever discovered anything.
[12:22.480 --> 12:23.440]  Breno, I have a question.
[12:24.520 --> 12:24.880]  Yeah?
[12:25.060 --> 12:28.980]  Yeah, I want to know, do you think they'll actually do away with the system and go back to the paper system?
[12:29.080 --> 12:42.440]  I mean, after they've invested all of this money, you're saying, do you think they'll try to come up with some sort of patch to make it more secure and then try to resell it to everybody as the way to do it?
[12:42.520 --> 12:43.720]  Or will they go back to paper?
[12:43.940 --> 12:44.900]  I mean, in your estimation.
[12:45.720 --> 12:50.580]  In my estimation, is that the end of the story is that we will go back to paper.
[12:51.600 --> 12:56.080]  They will try probably to fix this, but then you have to replace the chip.
[12:56.260 --> 13:00.740]  But you also have to replace the image that they've trashed over the last couple of years.
[13:01.060 --> 13:01.260]  Right.
[13:01.400 --> 13:03.460]  I was very uncertain yesterday evening.
[13:04.360 --> 13:08.400]  And then the director of this company was on national television.
[13:08.660 --> 13:13.520]  And the only thing he could say, like, well, if you're hacking a card, that is illegal.
[13:13.520 --> 13:15.600]  And that was the only response he had.
[13:16.620 --> 13:17.120]  Wow.
[13:17.180 --> 13:28.320]  And the only thing that the spokesperson said on the news was, these journalists and the politicians that have traveled illegally, they will find out about this.
[13:28.480 --> 13:30.140]  That's the only thing they could say.
[13:30.280 --> 13:34.260]  So the only thing they... is left to do, apparently, is to threaten people.
[13:34.260 --> 13:38.820]  Well, that's generally not the most secure position to work from.
[13:39.760 --> 13:43.040]  There is... there are two... two funny things that... that happened.
[13:43.320 --> 13:45.120]  And one of my cards was blocked.
[13:46.200 --> 13:48.180]  And what happened if they block a card?
[13:48.360 --> 13:49.880]  They set a bit on your card.
[13:50.300 --> 13:50.460]  Right.
[13:50.600 --> 13:54.060]  But because I can read it and write it, I can...
[13:54.060 --> 13:57.000]  I call it the naughty bit, like...
[13:59.240 --> 14:03.400]  I can overwrite the naughty bit, and then you can travel for free.
[14:03.800 --> 14:04.000]  Wow.
[14:04.200 --> 14:08.140]  But then I applied the second hack, like I'm checking myself in.
[14:08.440 --> 14:12.320]  And I did that on the card I knew I was detected on.
[14:12.960 --> 14:13.440]  Wow.
[14:13.440 --> 14:15.140]  And I presented that for a week.
[14:15.320 --> 14:17.920]  And they never, ever, ever discovered it.
[14:18.060 --> 14:18.760]  That was funny.
[14:19.240 --> 14:24.640]  Well, wonderful job, Breno, getting the word out and continue to do so.
[14:24.640 --> 14:27.620]  So, I mean, threats can be idle, you know, so...
[14:27.620 --> 14:31.660]  I gotta say, though, I see a certain parallel here.
[14:32.180 --> 14:41.840]  Our friend Ropp went around and pretty much got electronic voting machines to be replaced and things brought back to paper.
[14:42.060 --> 14:44.560]  And now here you're doing the same thing with transit.
[14:44.800 --> 14:46.660]  It's some kind of a Dutch theme, I think.
[14:48.640 --> 14:49.160]  Yes.
[14:49.920 --> 14:51.500]  I guess it's...
[14:51.500 --> 14:53.660]  Well, paper works, you know?
[14:53.660 --> 14:54.820]  They've thought about it.
[14:55.040 --> 14:58.680]  And why, you know, why go digital for something like a bus ticket?
[14:58.820 --> 15:04.000]  You know, it's so crazy to spend 3 billion euros on such a crazy system.
[15:04.560 --> 15:07.100]  You mean you don't buy bus tickets with your phone?
[15:09.960 --> 15:12.160]  No, well, that's Belgium, you know?
[15:12.260 --> 15:14.660]  They're far more advanced than us in the Netherlands.
[15:14.860 --> 15:15.140]  Oh, boy.
[15:15.180 --> 15:15.540]  Here we go.
[15:16.540 --> 15:19.000]  There's one other funny story.
[15:19.000 --> 15:27.440]  And the first time I was checked in the train, you know, it's a very exciting moment because, you know, for what it's worth, you might be arrested.
[15:28.660 --> 15:34.780]  And then the conductor came to me and he checked the card and he walked on and he started checking other people.
[15:35.640 --> 15:44.680]  And then, like, he was, like, four or five rows ahead and then he turned around and he looked at me, like, really angry and he said, like, sir, you with the chip card.
[15:44.840 --> 15:45.760]  And he walked back to me.
[15:47.280 --> 15:56.280]  And then he said, like, do you realize that you're traveling at full fare and it's after nine o'clock, so you could be traveling at a full discount of 40%.
[15:56.980 --> 16:00.380]  I was like, oh, thank you.
[16:00.640 --> 16:04.280]  You see, in Holland, people get angry at you for spending too much money.
[16:04.460 --> 16:05.780]  So that's a very...
[16:05.780 --> 16:07.860]  Why did it take them five people to realize that, though?
[16:08.960 --> 16:09.960]  That's amazing.
[16:10.540 --> 16:11.140]  Hey, Breno.
[16:11.280 --> 16:12.940]  Breno, I have a question for you.
[16:13.140 --> 16:14.000]  This is Bernie S.
[16:14.080 --> 16:14.500]  in Philadelphia.
[16:15.200 --> 16:36.120]  Do you think possibly that the reason the Dutch government spent three billion of your tax euros, taxpayers' euros there, on this system was, do you think one of the reasons they spent all that money was to have an infrastructure for tracking people's movements?
[16:36.300 --> 17:03.660]  And my second part of my question is, if this system has to be fixed, do you think that there could be enough public anger raised and anger with the elected officials there to force the company, was it TransLink Systems, to eat the cost of that and not make the Dutch public have to pay for the fix that they shouldn't have to pay for?
[17:06.760 --> 17:14.660]  Well, the first part of the question, the second part is, who's going to pay for that?
[17:15.160 --> 17:18.320]  During the whole process, they were already overspending.
[17:18.320 --> 17:22.900]  And at a certain point, they had a commission that was investigating this.
[17:23.360 --> 17:27.800]  And then they came to the conclusion that it was at least 100 million euros.
[17:28.300 --> 17:32.820]  And the second question to that commission was, who should pay this money?
[17:33.380 --> 17:36.780]  That part of the question, after two years, has still not been answered.
[17:37.960 --> 17:51.540]  So I still think that they have the same problem now, that they don't know who ends up paying for this, this company or the taxpayer, well, the taxpayer always loses, but so that's one.
[17:51.860 --> 17:53.640]  Second thing is, can it be fixed?
[17:53.800 --> 18:02.140]  Well, at the beginning, when I started all this investigation, like three years ago, I thought that it was really a cryptographic issue, and that's it.
[18:02.140 --> 18:06.580]  But what I have now shown is that the whole back office is defunct.
[18:08.540 --> 18:12.340]  And I don't understand how you can fix this.
[18:12.540 --> 18:18.020]  Apparently, if you shave off one of the security layers, then the whole system falls over.
[18:18.560 --> 18:21.240]  And I think that's a very, very bad sign.
[18:22.260 --> 18:25.200]  And in public opinion, the card is dead already.
[18:25.380 --> 18:28.420]  I was also on this television show called Pound.
[18:30.680 --> 18:35.540]  And basically, they called this card, dead, defunct, finished, over.
[18:36.520 --> 18:49.860]  Well, Brennan, let me ask you, since we said at the beginning of the show that this is the same kind of system that's used in Boston with the Charlie card, are you saying that that system is also subject to all these security holes?
[18:50.720 --> 18:55.680]  Yes, I don't know exactly how they built the system, but it's very similar.
[18:56.020 --> 18:57.540]  There are a few big differences.
[18:57.740 --> 19:01.420]  In the Netherlands, we've got a whole bunch of companies that are using the same card.
[19:02.120 --> 19:05.640]  And we've got a whole bunch of governments being responsible for it.
[19:05.820 --> 19:08.020]  And that makes our system more complex.
[19:08.280 --> 19:16.700]  But if I can crack such a complex system, then apparently, I think I would be able to do away with the Charlie card as well.
[19:16.700 --> 19:27.920]  It's the same cryptographic issue with the MyFAC Classic card and the tools, the MFOC libraries and the CREATO-1 library.
[19:28.180 --> 19:29.940]  They are available to everybody.
[19:30.180 --> 19:40.060]  So it would be my assumption that it will be days or weeks before, you know, in London and in Boston, these systems start to fall over as well.
[19:40.060 --> 19:45.240]  Because the fallout of this can only be that other cards will fall over.
[19:46.880 --> 19:50.440]  Well, Bruno, that's certainly dramatic and exciting.
[19:50.460 --> 19:52.440]  And we wish you all the best over there.
[19:52.600 --> 19:55.640]  Has it been much in the way of international attention to this story?
[19:57.000 --> 19:58.080]  No, not...
[19:58.080 --> 20:05.360]  You're the first international media, but on national level, I've been sleeping for three hours this night.
[20:05.720 --> 20:10.700]  So it was very chaotic, but it was a lot of fun, you know.
[20:10.840 --> 20:21.640]  If you've done three years of research, and you come to this conclusion ultimately, and you can prove it, and everybody responds so positively, most of the people did.
[20:23.340 --> 20:26.880]  My name was, at a certain point, even a trending topic on Twitter.
[20:27.100 --> 20:28.040]  So that was kind of cool.
[20:28.240 --> 20:29.320]  Well, that's the ultimate achievement.
[20:29.400 --> 20:32.060]  That's what we all hope for, one day to be a trending topic on Twitter.
[20:32.060 --> 20:33.800]  Ultimately, it's all about Twitter.
[20:35.220 --> 20:38.320]  All right, Bruno, congratulations on all your achievements.
[20:38.320 --> 20:41.180]  Get some sleep, and we'll be reading about you in the paper, we hope.
[20:42.760 --> 20:43.160]  Absolutely.
[20:43.400 --> 20:47.280]  I'll keep you posted if anything dramatic or non-dramatic happens.
[20:47.520 --> 20:48.160]  Okay, great.
[20:48.860 --> 20:49.880]  Thanks for talking with us.
[20:50.420 --> 20:51.560]  Love your show, guys.
[20:51.740 --> 20:51.980]  Bye.
[20:52.240 --> 20:52.540]  Take care.
[20:52.660 --> 20:52.920]  Bye-bye.
[20:53.800 --> 20:56.340]  That's our friend, Bruno, from Holland.
[20:56.960 --> 20:59.060]  Boy, you know, what is it about the Dutch?
[20:59.060 --> 21:02.840]  They just keep doing things like this, and it's inspiring.
[21:03.020 --> 21:05.800]  It really is inspiring, I think, to all of us.
[21:05.900 --> 21:09.600]  It sounds like they actually care about how their government and society runs.
[21:09.660 --> 21:10.420]  And technology, too.
[21:10.560 --> 21:11.220]  And technology, yeah.
[21:11.340 --> 21:16.900]  It's not about free train rides, because in Holland, it's relatively easy to get a free train ride, high-tech, low-tech, whatever.
[21:17.120 --> 21:17.320]  Right.
[21:17.320 --> 21:23.640]  It used to be just walk on the trams, and nobody would check your ticket, and it was very simple to avoid that kind of a thing.
[21:23.640 --> 21:31.500]  But this is, it's more about technology, it's more about privacy, and all kinds of implications like that, plus the claims of big corporations, which are almost always wrong.
[21:31.700 --> 21:39.260]  You know, privacy, how things running the way they should, as opposed to being run in some sloppy, very insecure way.
[21:39.580 --> 21:39.820]  Mm-hmm.
[21:40.580 --> 21:45.120]  One thing on the subject of paper, paper having a comeback.
[21:45.120 --> 21:47.800]  Well, not too sure that's happening.
[21:48.580 --> 21:52.200]  Credit cards, supposedly, are on the way out.
[21:52.200 --> 21:53.600]  That's according to CNN.
[21:54.120 --> 22:04.700]  They say you can already use your iPhone, Droid, or Blackberry to buy a hot dog at the ball game, buy your Starbucks latte, or give a friend a few dollars by bumping phones.
[22:05.220 --> 22:06.740]  Any of you guys know what that even means?
[22:07.080 --> 22:07.680]  Bumping phones?
[22:07.680 --> 22:08.540]  You can give people money?
[22:08.680 --> 22:12.200]  Yeah, if you want to use a silly proprietary app that nobody uses, then you can do that.
[22:12.260 --> 22:12.500]  Uh-huh.
[22:12.660 --> 22:15.360]  If I give you my phone, can you bump it and give me some money?
[22:15.480 --> 22:16.940]  No, because you can't run that stupid app.
[22:16.940 --> 22:20.240]  If you give me your phone, I can hold it for ransom and get money that way.
[22:21.200 --> 22:23.140]  Nobody is going to pay ransom for this phone.
[22:23.220 --> 22:23.560]  You might.
[22:23.860 --> 22:24.440]  No, I won't.
[22:24.560 --> 22:24.940]  All right.
[22:25.020 --> 22:26.360]  I will pay you to take it, in fact.
[22:26.820 --> 22:27.340]  All right.
[22:27.400 --> 22:28.040]  I'll do that, too.
[22:28.620 --> 22:29.920]  Somehow, I don't win on this deal.
[22:30.520 --> 22:40.600]  But, yeah, supposedly, the credit cards are being used less and less, and people are using their mobile phones, pay by phone.
[22:40.760 --> 22:49.760]  That market is supposedly going to make $22 billion in transactions by 2015, which is up from practically none last year.
[22:49.920 --> 22:51.620]  Yeah, but $22 out of how many billion?
[22:52.220 --> 22:53.360]  Well, I don't know.
[22:53.480 --> 22:54.540]  It's probably less than $1%.
[22:54.540 --> 22:57.340]  Total, but the point is it's growing exponentially.
[22:57.600 --> 22:58.140]  I don't know.
[22:58.400 --> 23:01.360]  I mean, this is a pretty technically savvy room that I'm in right now.
[23:01.480 --> 23:04.600]  Have any of us ever seen anyone pay for anything by mobile phone?
[23:04.680 --> 23:06.220]  Yeah, but you're not in a technically savvy country.
[23:06.220 --> 23:06.960]  Not in this country.
[23:07.040 --> 23:08.420]  You're not in a technically savvy country.
[23:08.520 --> 23:11.480]  But your CNN report is from the country that I'm in right now.
[23:12.300 --> 23:13.560]  I don't know where this was written.
[23:13.640 --> 23:15.140]  It might have been written somewhere else.
[23:15.140 --> 23:20.760]  But the point is, I've seen people paying for metro rides in Helsinki five, six years ago.
[23:21.800 --> 23:25.500]  It's old over there, and it might catch on over here.
[23:25.680 --> 23:25.880]  Rob?
[23:26.040 --> 23:27.600]  There are things in the beginning stages.
[23:28.020 --> 23:34.720]  We've long had people paying for ringtones and things for their phone by texting something or pressing something on their phone.
[23:35.120 --> 23:38.640]  So people, I think, are already kind of comfortable with the idea enough to go for something like this.
[23:38.640 --> 23:41.900]  Texting to save Haiti or various other causes.
[23:42.880 --> 23:46.560]  It's something that might catch on a whole lot more than it is right now.
[23:46.680 --> 23:48.940]  Well, I think it has a good possibility of catching on.
[23:49.060 --> 23:53.340]  Just one, simply for the fact of that we've seen it catch on in several other places around the world.
[23:53.460 --> 23:54.400]  But two, convenience.
[23:54.700 --> 23:59.900]  You know, people, you know, even though cash is more anonymous, people like convenience.
[24:00.000 --> 24:04.440]  And I've seen people pay for silly cheap things with credit cards.
[24:04.540 --> 24:08.700]  I've seen many, many people pay for things under $10 with a credit card.
[24:08.820 --> 24:09.500]  But we're talking about phones.
[24:09.500 --> 24:16.320]  But what I'm saying is that simply the fact of the matter is, you know, if that's more convenient than using cash, then you have it on your phone.
[24:16.480 --> 24:18.880]  You know, people can buy all sorts of things now, you know.
[24:19.020 --> 24:19.200]  Rob?
[24:19.500 --> 24:25.080]  Also, with the rise of things like smartphones, more and more of people's lives are focused in this little box in their hand now.
[24:25.120 --> 24:27.920]  And I think people are more willing to just put everything through that now.
[24:28.040 --> 24:29.000]  They're reading their emails.
[24:29.160 --> 24:29.920]  They're doing everything.
[24:30.320 --> 24:31.520]  Smartphones, stupid users.
[24:31.760 --> 24:32.740]  But go ahead, Mike.
[24:32.740 --> 24:40.540]  So if I give anyone my phone and I tell you all my passwords, can you go downstairs and turn that into a pack of gum for me?
[24:42.020 --> 24:43.000]  Anywhere in the United States.
[24:43.220 --> 24:44.920]  You can trade your phone for a pack of gum, probably.
[24:45.240 --> 24:47.240]  I'd probably use my own credit card to get you a pack of gum.
[24:47.620 --> 24:48.600]  I'm sure there's a way.
[24:48.660 --> 24:53.020]  And I'm sure our listeners will tell us things they've done with their phones that involve getting things.
[24:53.080 --> 24:56.200]  I mean, you can enter eBay auctions on your phone.
[24:56.240 --> 24:59.120]  Of course, that does involve a credit card payment somewhere along the line.
[24:59.240 --> 25:00.960]  But you're controlling it with your phone.
[25:00.960 --> 25:04.060]  These are all just paying for things, you know, electronically over the internet.
[25:04.220 --> 25:09.140]  None of these involve like taking your phone somewhere and receiving the thing right there.
[25:09.520 --> 25:10.460]  Well, not yet.
[25:10.620 --> 25:11.020]  Not yet.
[25:11.380 --> 25:17.080]  There is like an application, I believe, that Starbucks put out for smartphones where you can pay...
[25:17.520 --> 25:18.060]  For your latte.
[25:18.300 --> 25:19.160]  ...with your phone.
[25:19.340 --> 25:19.560]  Yeah.
[25:19.820 --> 25:20.140]  All right.
[25:20.800 --> 25:24.220]  I've never been to a Starbucks, so I think technically I can't even do that.
[25:24.520 --> 25:24.780]  Not yet.
[25:24.900 --> 25:25.560]  You know what?
[25:25.640 --> 25:30.860]  You should try to get someone to do that as your method of payment for the first Starbucks.
[25:31.140 --> 25:31.200]  Yeah.
[25:31.400 --> 25:32.380]  Newport Beach, California.
[25:32.560 --> 25:34.160]  That's the Starbucks I have to go to first.
[25:34.440 --> 25:35.380]  It won the competition.
[25:35.520 --> 25:35.660]  Kyle.
[25:35.900 --> 25:41.300]  Does this mean that the banks are not going to be in charge of my money anymore and I'm just going to do all my banking...
[25:41.300 --> 25:42.640]  Oh, the banks will always be in charge of your money.
[25:42.780 --> 25:42.900]  No.
[25:43.040 --> 25:43.740]  One way or another.
[25:43.740 --> 25:47.780]  I do all my banking through the carrier that runs my phone.
[25:48.700 --> 25:54.220]  So, you know, all of the money is handled there and, you know, the phone bill is also my bank statement.
[25:54.220 --> 25:58.640]  That carrier will become a bank, much like PayPal is supposedly a bank, even though it really isn't filter.
[25:58.940 --> 25:59.160]  Yeah.
[25:59.240 --> 26:01.680]  I wouldn't trust AT&T more than I trust PayPal.
[26:02.160 --> 26:03.880]  I don't trust any of them.
[26:04.080 --> 26:04.840]  I don't trust anybody.
[26:05.120 --> 26:10.220]  But, you know, the interesting thing is, we're talking about credit cards and, Kyle, you and I were just traveling in Scandinavia.
[26:10.400 --> 26:15.040]  It's amazing how useless American credit cards are in so many places.
[26:15.200 --> 26:15.780]  Oh, my gosh.
[26:15.780 --> 26:16.100]  Yes.
[26:16.320 --> 26:17.040]  It's unbelievable.
[26:17.040 --> 26:23.240]  In Norway, for instance, we went to some establishment and we tried to pay her the credit card.
[26:23.360 --> 26:23.480]  Right.
[26:23.620 --> 26:28.780]  And they said, we accept Visa, MasterCard, American Express, but not American credit cards.
[26:29.080 --> 26:32.420]  They don't accept American versions of American Express.
[26:32.760 --> 26:34.180]  I mean, how frustrating is that?
[26:34.360 --> 26:35.580]  No American American Express.
[26:35.760 --> 26:39.020]  And many other countries have chip cards on their credit cards.
[26:39.160 --> 26:40.300]  We can't get those here.
[26:40.660 --> 26:47.180]  There's such a problem with fraud, apparently, from the United States that they don't accept the card.
[26:47.260 --> 26:48.780]  It's like we're Indonesia to them.
[26:49.060 --> 26:55.960]  You know, here, when we do online transactions, anything coming from Indonesia is immediately flagged as suspicious because of the high amount of fraud.
[26:56.340 --> 27:00.540]  Well, apparently, the United States has now reached that plateau in parts of Europe.
[27:00.780 --> 27:07.560]  You can't use your credit card in many, many places, either because it's American or because it doesn't have a chip card.
[27:07.660 --> 27:11.520]  And the other thing, if you do use it, they tack on an extra charge.
[27:11.620 --> 27:14.440]  Now, this is in addition to the extra charge you pay when you get back home.
[27:14.440 --> 27:17.060]  And Visa or MasterCard says foreign transaction fee.
[27:17.220 --> 27:19.640]  They charge you another fee at the time of purchase.
[27:19.840 --> 27:23.060]  So really, it's a nightmare.
[27:23.240 --> 27:23.380]  Mike?
[27:23.520 --> 27:27.860]  If you work for the UN, you can join the UN Federal Credit Union.
[27:27.860 --> 27:30.960]  And they're the only US bank that gives out cards with chips in them.
[27:31.360 --> 27:34.440]  Well, how many of us can take advantage of that?
[27:34.660 --> 27:37.280]  Do we have any listeners that work at the UN?
[27:37.780 --> 27:38.040]  Why?
[27:38.100 --> 27:38.880]  Can they help us out?
[27:39.000 --> 27:41.180]  I don't know, but they can email us, OTH2010.com.
[27:41.180 --> 27:41.400]  Really?
[27:41.500 --> 27:43.660]  If you work for the UN, you can get these cards?
[27:43.660 --> 27:47.680]  Yeah, if you are a member of the UN Federal Credit Union, then you can get these cards.
[27:47.820 --> 27:49.820]  But in order to do that, you first have to work for the UN.
[27:50.500 --> 27:50.780]  All right.
[27:50.920 --> 27:51.560]  Well, you know...
[27:51.560 --> 27:59.400]  I have something that, Emmanuel, didn't a few years ago, did not American Express in the United States issue something called the Blue Card or it was called the Ice Card?
[27:59.400 --> 28:00.300]  It was blue in color.
[28:00.560 --> 28:02.140]  And I think it was partly transparent.
[28:02.380 --> 28:03.440]  And it had chip on it.
[28:04.500 --> 28:09.360]  Is that usable in the countries you said you were having trouble using?
[28:09.360 --> 28:09.840]  Of course not.
[28:13.660 --> 28:14.840]  I'm not talking RFID.
[28:15.040 --> 28:16.660]  This is an actual contact card.
[28:17.460 --> 28:17.640]  Right.
[28:18.020 --> 28:18.780]  It's not this...
[28:18.780 --> 28:21.000]  I mean, the kinds they have in Europe are big.
[28:21.180 --> 28:23.780]  Big chips that are very visible.
[28:23.920 --> 28:26.600]  And the kind that I've seen here in this country are much smaller.
[28:26.740 --> 28:28.640]  So right away, you see there's some kind of a difference.
[28:29.260 --> 28:30.720]  I don't think they're compatible.
[28:30.840 --> 28:34.560]  I might be wrong on that, but I've never actually used that system overseas or tried to.
[28:34.560 --> 28:44.040]  I just know many, many times in different countries, there's a distinct difference between European cards, European credit cards, and American credit cards, even though they're the same company.
[28:44.160 --> 28:46.780]  And it just sort of defeats the whole purpose of having a credit card, I think.
[28:47.040 --> 29:02.580]  I think one of the reasons that they're not being pushed in this country is that the merchants are up in arms about any prospect of having to purchase a point-of-sale machine that will read the chips as opposed to reading magnetic stripe cards.
[29:02.580 --> 29:10.540]  And I think these credit card companies make so much money, they could afford, and it would probably profit from buying these machines for the merchants.
[29:10.540 --> 29:16.020]  But that seems to be one of the reasons for the delay of implementation of chip cards in this country.
[29:16.100 --> 29:26.660]  And supposedly, the chip cards are much more secure because, for instance, if you're paying in a restaurant or something, you're not actually giving the card to the waiter.
[29:26.780 --> 29:27.380]  They're not taking it away.
[29:27.460 --> 29:28.660]  They bring a little machine to you.
[29:28.720 --> 29:30.240]  They stick the card in.
[29:30.800 --> 29:32.180]  There's no signature involved.
[29:32.180 --> 29:35.940]  You enter, I believe, a PIN for the chip card.
[29:36.080 --> 29:38.720]  And that's how security is maintained.
[29:38.820 --> 29:39.000]  Voltaire?
[29:39.060 --> 29:41.280]  Yeah, obviously, the chip cards aren't perfectly secure.
[29:41.420 --> 29:44.040]  We've had articles in 2600 about how they're not secure.
[29:44.240 --> 29:50.920]  But I think, as what Bernie said, the fact that we don't have them in the states is an indicator of how poor our infrastructure is.
[29:50.920 --> 30:03.240]  It's just generally our government is not doing good regulations and just the private sector doesn't have it as strong as in Europe and other more advanced countries.
[30:03.360 --> 30:13.320]  Yeah, it's ironic when you have a somewhat old system that people might then have a resistance against change in that system just simply because they perceive it's inconvenient.
[30:13.320 --> 30:19.800]  But, yeah, you know, one of the basic things of extra security is just simply you're having a conversation with the card.
[30:19.920 --> 30:21.280]  You're not just reading a number.
[30:21.480 --> 30:24.460]  You know, there's some sort of interaction that has to take place physically.
[30:24.460 --> 30:25.800]  You know, you're not talking about over the air.
[30:26.580 --> 30:30.040]  So, you know, that gives you extra security in that way alone.
[30:30.040 --> 30:32.160]  Okay, we spent a lot of time talking about security today.
[30:32.340 --> 30:36.560]  We were talking about mass transit systems and credit cards and things like that.
[30:36.620 --> 30:38.500]  But we're ignoring the elephant in the room.
[30:38.640 --> 30:42.480]  And, of course, that is the fact that Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook page was apparently hacked today.
[30:43.280 --> 30:54.660]  Yeah, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg appears to be the second high-profile victim of a hacking attack on his own Facebook page following a similar account takeover earlier this week targeting French President Nikolai Sarkozy.
[30:54.660 --> 31:11.320]  The page, www.facebook.com slash Mark Zuckerberg, sported an uncharacteristic message advocating that Facebook adopt a, quote-unquote, social business model where profits are invested in areas such as healthcare for the poor and other charitable causes.
[31:11.860 --> 31:14.300]  And that's according to a report on TechCrunch.
[31:14.440 --> 31:16.100]  Actually, that happened late yesterday.
[31:16.440 --> 31:24.860]  I just think it's sad that we immediately assume that Mark Zuckerberg wouldn't take that position of wanting to invest in healthcare for the poor.
[31:25.100 --> 31:27.280]  The message read, Let the hacking begin.
[31:27.480 --> 31:33.120]  If Facebook needs money, instead of going to the banks, why doesn't Facebook let its users invest in Facebook in a social way?
[31:33.280 --> 31:39.040]  Why not transform Facebook into a social business the way Nobel Peace winner Muhammad Yunus described it?
[31:39.180 --> 31:40.300]  And then there's a link to that.
[31:40.400 --> 31:40.940]  What do you think?
[31:41.160 --> 31:42.900]  Pound Hacker Cup 2011.
[31:43.980 --> 31:46.740]  That's an interesting link there.
[31:46.940 --> 31:47.860]  A hashtag, actually.
[31:47.860 --> 31:59.500]  The hashtag references Facebook's Hacker Cup, which is an ongoing competition that awards prizes to people who compete in algorithmic programming exercises centered around Facebook's services.
[32:00.360 --> 32:14.460]  The link basically points to the Wikipedia page for social business and includes other elements, including a message saying thanks for the cup and a link to the profile picture for the Facebook page of the Hacker Cup.
[32:14.460 --> 32:22.120]  It appears Facebook took down the page very quickly, and Facebook representatives had no immediate comment.
[32:22.440 --> 32:24.980]  Well, this message obviously served its purpose.
[32:24.980 --> 32:29.660]  Not only have people seen it, but now it's circulated all over the place.
[32:29.780 --> 32:31.260]  People will be thinking about this quite a bit.
[32:31.400 --> 32:32.940]  Well, you know, it's not very difficult.
[32:33.260 --> 32:38.740]  Basically, the attack on this page, basically, it's a username and a password.
[32:39.320 --> 32:40.680]  It's not even...
[32:40.680 --> 32:43.840]  It's not done over a secure HTTP protocol.
[32:43.840 --> 32:45.560]  Is it Facebook passwords?
[32:45.980 --> 32:47.740]  You can if you choose to.
[32:47.940 --> 32:48.660]  If you choose to.
[32:48.840 --> 32:50.120]  Do you think Mark Zuckerberg chose to?
[32:50.200 --> 32:51.200]  I don't think so.
[32:51.660 --> 32:58.280]  But capturing these details is really easy, and I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.
[32:58.920 --> 33:00.460]  So, yeah.
[33:00.640 --> 33:00.940]  Emmanuel?
[33:01.080 --> 33:01.560]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[33:01.840 --> 33:14.040]  I just want to say, I really love hacks like this, where the person who hacked a website or a Facebook fan page or something like that actually has a social message that's worth considering.
[33:14.640 --> 33:31.340]  And the fact that they suggested that Facebook could be a true social media company and helping to fund healthcare for the poor, that kind of thing, I love it that it would have to put Facebook in a position of having to deny that, no, they would never do anything like that.
[33:31.380 --> 33:32.480]  It's just brilliant.
[33:32.700 --> 33:33.660]  I just love this stuff.
[33:34.560 --> 33:34.880]  Okay.
[33:34.960 --> 33:39.460]  I'd like to move on to a letter that one of our listeners sent to us.
[33:39.520 --> 33:45.800]  And, again, you could be one of our listeners who sends us letters simply by writing to othat2600.com.
[33:46.160 --> 33:50.220]  And if we read your letter on the air, you'll get to hear it on the air if you listen.
[33:50.900 --> 33:51.220]  Yeah.
[33:51.360 --> 33:52.400]  Nothing more exciting than that.
[33:52.520 --> 33:53.000]  That's a good deal.
[33:53.060 --> 33:53.820]  It is a good deal.
[33:54.640 --> 33:56.460]  And there are absolutely no restrictions on that.
[33:57.120 --> 33:58.820]  Here's a letter from Angelo.
[33:59.420 --> 34:02.600]  Emmanuel talked about how he is getting harassed coming into the States.
[34:03.000 --> 34:05.120]  Look at Checkpoint USA on YouTube.
[34:05.280 --> 34:06.040]  Well, let's do that right now.
[34:06.140 --> 34:07.800]  Let's go over to YouTube here.
[34:07.960 --> 34:09.100]  We happen to have YouTube in the room.
[34:09.300 --> 34:12.080]  And let's click on this Checkpoint USA thing.
[34:12.460 --> 34:15.560]  And do we have any audio?
[34:17.320 --> 34:18.140]  No, we don't.
[34:18.260 --> 34:19.080]  How is that possible?
[34:19.080 --> 34:19.880]  This is all loaded.
[34:20.400 --> 34:20.740]  Okay.
[34:20.900 --> 34:22.680]  Our computer is very, very slow.
[34:22.680 --> 34:25.940]  So, it says it's playing, but it's not.
[34:26.860 --> 34:27.500]  Oh, well.
[34:27.620 --> 34:28.980]  I'm sure it'll start playing at some point.
[34:29.700 --> 34:30.200]  Yes.
[34:31.280 --> 34:39.740]  A tech who works on remote telescopes in Arizona has to go through a DHS checkpoint, as you do when you come into the States.
[34:39.740 --> 34:46.620]  And he refuses to go to secondary, quote-unquote secondary, which you, on the other hand, do.
[34:47.200 --> 34:49.160]  Now, he's referring to me agreeing.
[34:49.880 --> 34:57.560]  I didn't really think I was agreeing to anything, but basically, I was following instructions and being interrogated.
[34:57.640 --> 35:09.400]  Well, not really interrogated, but just brought into a room, held in a room, and told to wait while they typed all kinds of information about me into their computer and added to my already existing file.
[35:11.260 --> 35:12.840]  So, you know, this is so annoying.
[35:12.980 --> 35:15.800]  I tested this right before, and it worked, and now it's not working at all.
[35:16.120 --> 35:19.440]  Does somebody want to come over here and get the Internet to work on this computer?
[35:19.740 --> 35:21.080]  Go ahead, Dot Red, please.
[35:22.800 --> 35:23.900]  It's so frustrating.
[35:24.520 --> 35:26.860]  When you test something, it works perfectly.
[35:26.860 --> 35:27.580]  You see, it's right there.
[35:27.620 --> 35:28.520]  It's all shaded out.
[35:28.520 --> 35:31.260]  And, yeah, it should work.
[35:33.120 --> 35:34.400]  Did it crash?
[35:34.980 --> 35:35.920]  Did it really crash?
[35:36.360 --> 35:36.800]  No way.
[35:36.900 --> 35:37.220]  All right.
[35:37.300 --> 35:38.660]  Well, you would hear...
[35:38.660 --> 35:39.720]  I had this all planned out.
[35:39.780 --> 35:46.180]  You would hear the guy speaking in the background because he recorded this whole interaction with...
[35:46.180 --> 35:48.360]  Well, we need some computers from the 20th century.
[35:48.500 --> 35:49.000]  We really do.
[35:49.480 --> 35:51.400]  You know, it's just frozen there.
[35:52.100 --> 35:52.500]  Voltaire.
[35:52.560 --> 35:56.280]  What we need is websites to stop using Flash because it's a horrible research hog.
[35:56.420 --> 35:57.160]  Well, okay, fine.
[35:57.160 --> 36:02.380]  But if you're going to listen to anything on YouTube, you're going to have to use Flash.
[36:02.500 --> 36:03.340]  I'm going to try the other...
[36:03.340 --> 36:04.080]  We have two computers.
[36:04.400 --> 36:06.620]  Neither one of them works very well, but I'm going to try that one.
[36:06.800 --> 36:07.160]  Kyle.
[36:07.400 --> 36:07.540]  Yes.
[36:07.740 --> 36:08.080]  Oh, yeah.
[36:08.220 --> 36:09.160]  I just want to say...
[36:09.160 --> 36:33.020]  So, from what I'm hearing in this letter, basically, the experience we had coming back from Canada where we were asked to participate in a search, it was very early in the morning, we would have been able to opt out or at least ask them why, indeed, they wanted to search our vehicle and look for whatever they were looking for.
[36:33.780 --> 36:36.260]  And I didn't know this, and it's kind of interesting.
[36:36.620 --> 36:42.060]  So, I don't know if you've got more of that to share with us.
[36:42.060 --> 36:45.300]  Right now, I know my rights and I would like to travel freely.
[36:45.660 --> 36:49.760]  They can stop me to question my citizenship and that's it.
[36:49.940 --> 36:55.120]  Congress says they can temporarily detain within 100 miles of the border and they can question my citizenship.
[36:55.340 --> 37:00.740]  How long do you expect me to allow you to disregard what I'm telling you to do?
[37:00.740 --> 37:02.280]  How long, as U.S.
[37:02.340 --> 37:05.860]  citizen, do you expect me to allow you...
[37:05.860 --> 37:07.940]  Okay, I appreciate your patience.
[37:08.080 --> 37:13.960]  I appreciate your patience, but if you try to pull me out of this vehicle, you would be wrongfully detained.
[37:14.180 --> 37:14.280]  What?
[37:14.400 --> 37:15.220]  Do you have a time frame?
[37:15.800 --> 37:17.600]  How long do you intend to do this for?
[37:17.600 --> 37:18.440]  I don't understand.
[37:18.700 --> 37:20.180]  It seems like you have an agenda right now.
[37:20.220 --> 37:21.300]  I want to go home.
[37:21.400 --> 37:21.980]  This is simple.
[37:22.140 --> 37:24.400]  As soon as you tell me I can go home, I will go.
[37:24.620 --> 37:24.840]  I can't do that.
[37:25.420 --> 37:26.160]  They can.
[37:26.500 --> 37:27.280]  They can.
[37:27.660 --> 37:28.620]  So, why is...
[37:28.620 --> 37:29.320]  I don't understand.
[37:29.320 --> 37:33.240]  You are asking me to go to secondary, but what happens if I don't?
[37:33.560 --> 37:34.260]  Like, tell me.
[37:34.380 --> 37:38.480]  If I don't and we sit here and we wait however long it takes you, what happens?
[37:38.960 --> 37:39.500]  We need to go ahead and...
[37:39.500 --> 37:40.540]  So, what happens?
[37:40.640 --> 37:41.760]  How does it escalate from there?
[37:42.660 --> 37:43.560]  What will you do?
[37:43.860 --> 37:44.520]  I'm just curious.
[37:44.660 --> 37:46.640]  I've never been in this situation before.
[37:47.240 --> 37:49.000]  I'm trying to travel freely in the United States.
[37:49.000 --> 37:52.020]  I have a Fourth Amendment that protects me from illegal search and seizures.
[37:52.380 --> 37:53.640]  What is the Fourth Amendment, sir?
[37:53.760 --> 37:54.640]  The Fourth Amendment...
[37:54.640 --> 37:55.480]  You know it better than I do.
[37:55.560 --> 37:59.260]  Okay, the Fourth Amendment, since you don't know what the Fourth Amendment says...
[37:59.260 --> 37:59.880]  Can you...
[37:59.880 --> 38:02.020]  Well, can you tell me what the Fourth Amendment is?
[38:02.220 --> 38:02.960]  You don't know?
[38:04.060 --> 38:07.400]  You're a post-certified officer and you don't know what the Fourth Amendment...
[38:07.400 --> 38:08.580]  I think I have a constant...
[38:08.580 --> 38:10.700]  Do you think I'm here stomping on your rights?
[38:10.800 --> 38:11.580]  No, they are.
[38:11.800 --> 38:15.800]  And now you're here because they want me to pull over and let them search my vehicle.
[38:16.000 --> 38:17.120]  Officer, I don't want trouble.
[38:17.120 --> 38:19.040]  I want to travel freely in the United States.
[38:19.280 --> 38:24.540]  You know, I got to applaud this guy for having the guts to stand up to these people and know his rights.
[38:24.820 --> 38:28.640]  And if the dog smelled narcotics, can I see the dog and see the signal that he gave you?
[38:28.660 --> 38:30.240]  Because I have no narcotics in the vehicle.
[38:30.300 --> 38:31.980]  I almost feel sorry for that cop.
[38:32.160 --> 38:37.580]  I mean, he obviously is out of his element, but he is enforcing a rule, which is completely crazy.
[38:38.080 --> 38:38.440]  Think of it.
[38:38.520 --> 38:39.440]  You're traveling in the United States.
[38:39.440 --> 38:46.260]  You don't even cross a border and you're being subjected to border patrol and having to be searched and questioned.
[38:47.800 --> 38:48.060]  Wow.
[38:48.660 --> 38:50.500]  So, yeah, by going...
[38:50.500 --> 38:51.380]  Continuing with this letter here.
[38:51.520 --> 38:57.720]  By going into the secondary location, you give Department of Homeland Security implied consent for a search.
[38:58.320 --> 39:02.620]  This means that if you consent to go to secondary, your property temporarily becomes property of the U.S.
[39:02.760 --> 39:05.600]  government, allowing them to search for as long as they want.
[39:06.840 --> 39:10.120]  So, yeah, you shouldn't have to be harassed at the U.S.
[39:10.220 --> 39:13.240]  border, seeing how you are a citizen.
[39:13.240 --> 39:19.300]  When they ask you to go to secondary, make them give you a legal reason why you aren't free to be on your way.
[39:19.420 --> 39:20.000]  They will say...
[39:20.000 --> 39:25.240]  They'll tell you once you're in secondary, but when you do that, you lose a lot of your rights.
[39:25.560 --> 39:28.440]  Yeah, there's some mistakes in that legal analysis.
[39:28.960 --> 39:33.060]  When you actually are crossing a border, you have a lot fewer rights under U.S.
[39:33.340 --> 39:41.660]  law than in the case of the video we're playing, which is this bizarro immigration check points for people who are already in the country.
[39:41.880 --> 39:42.780]  Yeah, that's amazing.
[39:42.960 --> 39:44.520]  I mean, I would have more of a problem with that.
[39:44.600 --> 39:51.080]  But honestly, and I'm trying to be honest here, I don't know if I could put up this kind of a fight where I'm as confident as this guy.
[39:51.160 --> 39:55.680]  I mean, I applaud him for being this confident and for standing up and all that kind of thing.
[39:55.760 --> 39:58.340]  But boy, it takes a lot to do this.
[39:58.420 --> 40:02.360]  And I don't think you should feel ashamed if you buckle, but tell people.
[40:02.460 --> 40:03.800]  Are you refusing to allow me?
[40:03.800 --> 40:06.040]  You know, this takes a lot of guts to be able to do this.
[40:06.040 --> 40:09.720]  Is this guy, is the video, is he like 100 miles from the border?
[40:09.920 --> 40:15.300]  Because I think, isn't the policy that like, if you're 100 miles from the border, then you're technically at a border cross?
[40:15.300 --> 40:19.360]  Well, that is the policy supposedly because this happens close to Canada as well.
[40:19.440 --> 40:20.400]  But it's different.
[40:20.880 --> 40:27.140]  It's these checkpoints, which by the way are horrible violations of civil liberties and should be eliminated.
[40:27.360 --> 40:31.720]  But they're not the same as checkpoints that you go through when you actually cross the border.
[40:32.840 --> 40:34.680]  And you have some more rights.
[40:34.940 --> 40:37.240]  It might be hard for you to tell the difference though.
[40:37.580 --> 40:39.300]  Well, it's pretty easy to tell the difference.
[40:39.320 --> 40:40.700]  You're either crossing a border or you're not.
[40:40.760 --> 40:46.980]  I'm saying when you're being searched and detained, it might be kind of confusing to know what rights you have and what rights you don't have.
[40:47.180 --> 40:47.280]  Kyle?
[40:47.500 --> 40:51.500]  Yeah, I remember the incident when we were coming across in Canada.
[40:51.500 --> 40:58.700]  And I was really shook just at being asked to go into the secondary process.
[40:58.700 --> 41:10.020]  I mean, to even say anything to the guys about a legal right or anything like that or what their legal standing is on detaining me and searching me.
[41:10.060 --> 41:12.700]  I mean, you got to be pretty courageous to do that.
[41:12.900 --> 41:16.980]  And I just don't know if I could keep it up.
[41:17.040 --> 41:19.240]  But again, thanks to this person for...
[41:19.240 --> 41:20.580]  Angelo, thanks for sending us this letter.
[41:20.740 --> 41:21.900]  He says, again, look at the fight.
[41:22.340 --> 41:25.340]  This man is facing to move freely without even crossing the border.
[41:25.740 --> 41:26.360]  P.S.
[41:26.460 --> 41:27.440]  Obama is not a U.S.
[41:27.520 --> 41:27.780]  citizen.
[41:28.300 --> 41:29.740]  Well, OK.
[41:29.980 --> 41:31.640]  You know, I'm glad you threw that in there as well.
[41:31.640 --> 41:35.560]  So we know that there's all kinds of other agendas here going on, too.
[41:36.280 --> 41:37.720]  Let's ignore that last part.
[41:37.920 --> 41:41.060]  But applaud the person for standing up for their rights.
[41:41.360 --> 41:42.580]  I'm going to pull over to secondary.
[41:42.780 --> 41:43.240]  Is that fine?
[41:43.260 --> 41:43.300]  Still going.
[41:43.660 --> 41:44.060]  That's fine.
[41:44.260 --> 41:47.600]  And he eventually pulled into secondary to start with.
[41:47.820 --> 41:48.700]  What is he going to do?
[41:49.020 --> 41:50.040]  Are you going to pull over to secondary?
[41:50.160 --> 41:51.040]  Asking a whole lot of questions.
[41:51.060 --> 41:52.200]  Am I legally required to?
[41:52.580 --> 41:53.520]  At this point, yes or no.
[41:53.540 --> 41:54.660]  OK, I'm going to pull over to secondary.
[41:54.800 --> 41:57.460]  If it's legally binding and I have to pull over to secondary, then I will.
[41:57.460 --> 41:58.020]  OK, then.
[42:00.430 --> 42:01.730]  And so he pulls right in.
[42:01.790 --> 42:03.050]  We don't know how the story actually ends.
[42:03.190 --> 42:06.030]  Now, Bernie, tell me, what about recording this guy?
[42:06.350 --> 42:08.870]  Is this guy able to do this legally?
[42:09.550 --> 42:17.990]  Well, in Arizona, Arizona is not the one of six states where it is a felony to record someone without their knowledge.
[42:18.110 --> 42:19.110]  Now, if you...
[42:19.110 --> 42:20.630]  It's unclear to me whether...
[42:20.630 --> 42:21.850]  It seems pretty clear to me.
[42:21.950 --> 42:22.790]  I watched this video.
[42:22.950 --> 42:29.470]  It looked like these law enforcement officers, if that's what they were, were aware they were being recorded.
[42:29.750 --> 42:33.150]  But I would want to advise them of that.
[42:33.250 --> 42:35.890]  There are six states, like Pennsylvania, Maryland, and there's four others.
[42:35.970 --> 42:37.750]  New York and New Jersey are not among them.
[42:38.470 --> 42:43.750]  And I don't think Arizona is either, where it's a state felony to record someone without their knowledge.
[42:43.890 --> 42:44.750]  It doesn't mean consent.
[42:44.970 --> 42:46.090]  They just have to know.
[42:47.490 --> 42:49.430]  So, I don't think that was illegal, what he did.
[42:49.450 --> 42:50.070]  And I'm glad.
[42:50.310 --> 42:50.910]  But I think...
[42:50.910 --> 42:52.770]  I don't think it should be a crime in any state, frankly.
[42:54.030 --> 42:54.290]  Interesting.
[42:54.530 --> 42:55.750]  Bernie, you can hear me now, right?
[42:56.170 --> 42:56.970]  I hear you fine.
[42:57.150 --> 42:57.830]  This is amazing.
[42:57.990 --> 43:01.610]  It's like a seance almost because the phone has no lights on it right now.
[43:01.610 --> 43:03.930]  We thought we disconnected you, but you're obviously still there.
[43:04.310 --> 43:08.330]  But we have no way of knowing what line you're on or anything like that.
[43:08.390 --> 43:09.950]  Wow, I've never seen the phone do that before.
[43:09.950 --> 43:15.730]  Is the WBAI phone system old enough to have incandescent light bulbs?
[43:15.910 --> 43:17.690]  Well, they didn't all burn out at the same time.
[43:18.910 --> 43:24.050]  There's many lights on our phone and they all went out when Emmanuel rotated the phone, but...
[43:24.050 --> 43:27.930]  I'm sorry for rotating the phone, but I do that when I'm preparing to take phone calls or make phone calls.
[43:28.130 --> 43:28.590]  You know what?
[43:29.130 --> 43:34.870]  Before our switchboard lights up, I'd like to just make a phone call if it's all the same to everybody else's.
[43:34.870 --> 43:36.550]  If I can get a dial tone here, can I get a dial tone?
[43:37.370 --> 43:38.090]  I can, okay.
[43:38.670 --> 43:39.850]  Just a blast from the past.
[43:39.950 --> 43:41.630]  If people will indulge me here.
[43:42.910 --> 43:46.150]  Some of you might be able to make out the phone number I'm calling.
[43:49.610 --> 43:50.690]  Take a listen to this.
[43:52.010 --> 43:54.530]  Thank you for calling 1-800-COLLECT.
[43:54.690 --> 43:58.030]  Now we can also assist you in making collect calls to wireless numbers.
[43:58.350 --> 44:02.830]  To make a collect call, enter the number you wish to call, area code first.
[44:03.070 --> 44:06.630]  To bill a call to a calling card or credit card, press star 4.
[44:06.830 --> 44:08.370]  For assistance, press zero.
[44:08.790 --> 44:11.930]  Your wireline call will be connected by MCI.
[44:12.650 --> 44:14.010]  MCI doesn't exist anymore.
[44:14.330 --> 44:15.910]  They got absorbed.
[44:16.230 --> 44:17.870]  We're back in the past.
[44:18.010 --> 44:21.050]  I'm going to hit zero, though, and ask about making a collect call to a cell phone.
[44:21.130 --> 44:21.770]  I want to do that.
[44:22.090 --> 44:24.110]  May I have the area code, the number you're calling, please?
[44:24.110 --> 44:25.530]  Well, I'm curious...
[44:25.530 --> 44:27.050]  I'm curious...
[44:27.050 --> 44:28.310]  I'm sorry, can you hear me?
[44:28.650 --> 44:28.990]  Yes.
[44:29.150 --> 44:29.910]  I have a bad connection.
[44:30.550 --> 44:33.530]  I'm curious how I would make a collect call to a cell phone.
[44:34.250 --> 44:37.770]  You can give me the number, sir, and I will transfer you to 3G Collect.
[44:37.810 --> 44:41.370]  They will place the call collect for you to that cell phone number.
[44:41.510 --> 44:42.450]  What's the name of the company?
[44:43.070 --> 44:43.910]  3G Collect.
[44:44.910 --> 44:45.790]  3G Collect.
[44:46.410 --> 44:51.730]  Okay, and they call the cell phone and ask the person if he will accept the call, and then if he does...
[44:51.730 --> 44:53.110]  Do you know what the rate is?
[44:53.850 --> 44:56.970]  It will be a flat rate of $12.99.
[44:57.590 --> 44:59.390]  You can speak for up to 30 minutes.
[44:59.610 --> 45:00.390]  Up to 30 minutes.
[45:01.070 --> 45:03.070]  But if I speak for one minute, it's still $12.99.
[45:03.450 --> 45:04.370]  It's a flat rate.
[45:04.430 --> 45:05.190]  Flat rate, yes.
[45:05.870 --> 45:06.470]  You know what?
[45:06.470 --> 45:09.670]  I'm going to give this matter some thought, but I want to thank you for your time.
[45:09.990 --> 45:10.350]  Sure.
[45:10.650 --> 45:11.370]  Have a good night.
[45:11.650 --> 45:12.010]  You too.
[45:12.590 --> 45:13.910]  And thank you for using MCI.
[45:15.250 --> 45:16.570]  Wow, they're still there.
[45:16.790 --> 45:21.830]  Somewhere, they're buried in a basement and no one told them that they'd been absorbed by Verizon, right?
[45:23.250 --> 45:25.170]  Keep track of the corporate emergency.
[45:25.290 --> 45:28.410]  I think Verizon took over MCI or was it...
[45:28.410 --> 45:29.710]  You can keep these straight.
[45:29.830 --> 45:30.550]  Does anybody know?
[45:31.070 --> 45:32.290]  I'm pretty sure it was.
[45:32.330 --> 45:34.550]  It was Verizon and it was several years ago.
[45:34.890 --> 45:38.510]  Yeah, it totally was and they haven't called themselves MCI for...
[45:38.510 --> 45:43.370]  Wasn't it WorldNet or WorldCom or something and they had the big scandal?
[45:43.690 --> 45:43.970]  Yes.
[45:44.090 --> 45:45.250]  Yeah, yeah, MCI WorldCom.
[45:45.650 --> 45:46.090]  Wow.
[45:46.530 --> 45:47.750]  Okay, well there you go.
[45:47.870 --> 45:48.830]  A little blast from the past there.
[45:50.450 --> 45:51.370]  I don't know how we're going to do this.
[45:51.470 --> 45:55.210]  Mike, do you want to play with the phone a little bit and see if you can get some life back into it and maybe...
[45:55.530 --> 45:56.650]  Oh, the lights just came on.
[45:57.070 --> 45:57.350]  Okay.
[45:57.490 --> 45:58.350]  Rotate it the other way.
[45:58.550 --> 45:59.530]  All right, we did.
[45:59.970 --> 46:02.490]  Mike, why don't you just press the buttons and we take some phone calls.
[46:02.690 --> 46:03.850]  I just won't touch the thing.
[46:04.010 --> 46:04.970]  Well, no one's calling us.
[46:04.970 --> 46:06.090]  Well, we haven't given the phone number out.
[46:06.230 --> 46:08.990]  212-209-2900.
[46:09.790 --> 46:14.230]  That's the phone number and we'd be happy to talk to you about almost anything.
[46:14.630 --> 46:16.130]  Some notes, some programming notes.
[46:16.370 --> 46:23.910]  Next week starts the winter fundraiser and you can tell it's winter because if you look outside in the New York area you'll see that it's snowing yet again.
[46:25.090 --> 46:30.170]  Next week begins the first of four weeks of fundraising and we must do this in order to stay on the air.
[46:30.290 --> 46:34.610]  It's an important part of our existence here and it can be a fun part too.
[46:35.330 --> 46:37.670]  It's something that I hope people will participate in.
[46:38.230 --> 46:41.050]  And a couple of notes to people that have participated in the past.
[46:41.170 --> 46:43.470]  We want to thank you very much for your support.
[46:43.670 --> 46:45.050]  Those of you who pledged...
[46:45.430 --> 46:46.490]  Got a dial tone there, Mike.
[46:46.590 --> 46:47.070]  Very good.
[46:47.090 --> 46:48.150]  It does it by itself.
[46:48.310 --> 46:49.390]  It does it by itself.
[46:49.610 --> 46:49.970]  Really?
[46:50.090 --> 46:51.530]  It's answering the phone by itself?
[46:51.810 --> 46:52.170]  Yes.
[46:52.690 --> 46:53.050]  Okay.
[46:53.310 --> 46:53.570]  Wonderful.
[46:53.810 --> 46:56.950]  Well, this is going to be a fun episode of taking calls.
[46:57.330 --> 47:01.910]  But some notes for people who pledged in October for the various items.
[47:01.910 --> 47:03.970]  I believe we had anti-RFID wallets.
[47:03.970 --> 47:09.850]  We had some Tesla coil and some Lego books and things like that.
[47:10.190 --> 47:16.110]  We are still receiving those premiums from the people that offer them to us, which is why you probably haven't gotten them.
[47:16.210 --> 47:18.250]  In fact, if you've gotten them, it's impossible.
[47:18.390 --> 47:19.790]  You couldn't have because we haven't...
[47:19.790 --> 47:21.950]  We just are starting to get them now ourselves.
[47:22.130 --> 47:23.510]  So that will be going out.
[47:23.610 --> 47:24.650]  Everybody will get what they pledged for.
[47:24.830 --> 47:32.250]  Those of you who have been contacting us about the summer fundraiser, first of all, you should have gotten your premiums for the summer fundraiser.
[47:32.930 --> 47:35.550]  That, I think, took place in July or August.
[47:35.750 --> 47:36.250]  One of those.
[47:36.670 --> 47:40.010]  If you have not, please email us.
[47:40.130 --> 47:41.750]  We will forward your email over to WBAI.
[47:41.830 --> 47:47.050]  They have the premiums and we will supply them with more if they don't have enough.
[47:47.630 --> 47:49.290]  Everybody will get what they pledged for.
[47:49.490 --> 47:53.150]  Sometimes it takes a little bit longer than it should, but we follow up on all of these.
[47:53.310 --> 47:55.410]  So OTH at 2600.com.
[47:55.550 --> 47:59.050]  In any event, remember why it's important to call in and pledge.
[47:59.190 --> 48:00.710]  It's to keep the radio station going.
[48:00.850 --> 48:14.850]  The premiums are something that we offer to help make it less painful and to show our appreciation and for the people who donate the premiums to us, for them to show their appreciation for having this voice to the outside world.
[48:15.510 --> 48:24.930]  But again, remember, it's all done by volunteers and we're not doing this professionally so it does take longer than it would if you were ordering this from Amazon or something like that.
[48:25.310 --> 48:32.710]  It's not that you're ordering products, it's that you're donating to a radio station and this is something that we throw in and we do the best we can and we're trying.
[48:33.390 --> 48:35.930]  Again, OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[48:36.210 --> 48:38.850]  Okay, our phone number 212-209-2900.
[48:38.930 --> 48:39.970]  Do we have some phone calls, Mike?
[48:40.930 --> 48:42.810]  Yes, we have one on the line right now.
[48:43.170 --> 48:43.810]  Good evening.
[48:44.950 --> 48:48.210]  I want to talk about the One Laptop for Child program.
[48:48.410 --> 48:51.470]  I don't know if you guys have heard about it, these little $100 laptops.
[48:52.530 --> 48:53.770]  Can you do it quickly?
[48:54.390 --> 48:54.650]  Yeah.
[48:55.830 --> 49:06.330]  Basically, it's an effort started at MIT and I'm a volunteer and we're developing free software for education that runs on a platform called Sugar, which is on top of Linux.
[49:07.390 --> 49:14.450]  And even though it's a volunteer effort, I know, unfortunately, sometimes, right now, there are a lot of programmers kind of out of jobs.
[49:14.450 --> 49:21.010]  It would be a great way for them to keep their skills up and their resume going and if anybody's interested, I want to get my email out.
[49:21.010 --> 49:22.710]  Well, go ahead and give your email out.
[49:22.750 --> 49:23.450]  I hope it's your email.
[49:24.030 --> 49:24.450]  Yes, it is.
[49:24.710 --> 49:27.330]  Nitoi, N-I-T-O-Y-0-E at gmail.
[49:27.870 --> 49:28.530]  Dot com.
[49:28.690 --> 49:30.170]  Okay, thanks for that.
[49:30.650 --> 49:31.890]  And let's take another phone call.
[49:32.230 --> 49:32.890]  Good evening.
[49:33.070 --> 49:33.930]  You're on Off the Hook.
[49:34.350 --> 49:35.070]  Yeah, hi.
[49:35.390 --> 49:35.670]  Hi.
[49:35.990 --> 49:36.590]  Am I on the air?
[49:36.650 --> 49:37.410]  You're on the air right now.
[49:37.490 --> 49:38.090]  Oh, okay.
[49:39.130 --> 49:41.470]  I have some information I understand.
[49:41.730 --> 49:44.270]  Is this, you're the fellow that leads the program?
[49:44.850 --> 49:47.290]  Well, I don't consider myself a leader of the program.
[49:47.290 --> 49:48.470]  I'm one of the participants.
[49:48.730 --> 49:51.390]  You're the gentleman that was stopped at the airport returning.
[49:51.950 --> 49:54.050]  Well, gentleman is too kind, but yes, I am.
[49:54.250 --> 49:56.530]  I have some information, Mr. Crowley.
[49:56.710 --> 50:02.070]  You are known to travel under an alias and you're flagged for that reason.
[50:02.170 --> 50:03.370]  I travel under an alias.
[50:03.670 --> 50:05.250]  That's true and that is exactly the reason.
[50:05.450 --> 50:06.690]  Well, okay, tell me more.
[50:07.450 --> 50:10.330]  I can't do that, but you know what the circumstances are.
[50:10.390 --> 50:14.850]  Well, are you referring to having credit cards under different names?
[50:17.510 --> 50:18.430]  Did he hang up?
[50:18.590 --> 50:19.550]  Why do people do that?
[50:19.610 --> 50:23.010]  Why do people leave mysterious messages or say mysterious things and then hang up?
[50:23.590 --> 50:24.930]  We've talked about this on the radio.
[50:25.030 --> 50:36.650]  This is no secret, but I've had a couple of conversations with customs agents who don't understand how somebody could have a credit card with the exact same credit card number and a different name underneath it.
[50:36.730 --> 50:44.210]  Well, the fact is you can go to any credit card company, American Express, MasterCard, Visa, and ask for additional cards in any name you want.
[50:44.330 --> 50:45.210]  And it's a lot of fun.
[50:45.330 --> 50:51.410]  It's a lot of fun to have a credit card that says Dick Cheney on it and pretend that he's covering dinner tonight or something like that.
[50:51.570 --> 50:54.470]  The thing is, you wind up paying the bill in the end anyway.
[50:54.530 --> 50:56.930]  It's just a name that gets printed on there.
[50:57.650 --> 51:05.870]  Customs agents assume, apparently, or the thicker ones assume that you're up to something, that you're an alias, you're harboring fugitives.
[51:05.970 --> 51:06.910]  I don't know what they think.
[51:07.730 --> 51:09.250]  And that happened once.
[51:09.410 --> 51:13.930]  I think that got written into a file and people keep reading it even though I don't do that anymore.
[51:13.930 --> 51:21.190]  I try not to carry those credit cards with different names because I know how confused they'll get and how lengthy a discussion I'll have with them.
[51:21.290 --> 51:27.210]  But apparently, because it happened in the past, now they feel they have to ask about it anyway even though it's not happening right now.
[51:27.210 --> 51:28.830]  So it's a never-ending process.
[51:28.830 --> 51:29.130]  Rob?
[51:29.290 --> 51:30.690]  And I know we would get asked this.
[51:30.810 --> 51:39.750]  So just to explain, this functionality exists in credit card companies because people tend to want to get additional cards on their same account to give to their family members and things like that.
[51:40.030 --> 51:40.350]  Absolutely.
[51:40.710 --> 51:42.130]  So I mean, I can give them any names you like.
[51:42.210 --> 51:42.990]  I could have a Rob T.
[51:43.150 --> 51:48.010]  Firefly credit card and either hand it to you or just hold it in front of you and say, look what I have.
[51:48.150 --> 51:50.070]  I would be in favor of this plan if you handed it to me.
[51:50.310 --> 51:55.530]  Hackers, it's a great way to make somebody think that you totally own their lives when you don't actually.
[51:55.650 --> 52:03.350]  You simply get a credit card under their name and then hold it in front of their face and say, look, I've got your credit card and they can't do anything about it because it's really your credit card.
[52:04.030 --> 52:05.270]  Oh, the fun we have.
[52:05.930 --> 52:06.130]  All right.
[52:06.370 --> 52:07.670]  212-209-2900.
[52:07.830 --> 52:08.630]  Let's take another phone call.
[52:09.190 --> 52:09.950]  And good evening.
[52:10.110 --> 52:10.650]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:11.750 --> 52:16.790]  Yeah, I just called about the people using the cell phones to pay for stuff.
[52:17.490 --> 52:17.890]  Okay.
[52:17.950 --> 52:19.450]  Do you use your cell phone to pay for stuff?
[52:20.070 --> 52:25.990]  No, I was in Starbucks a couple weeks ago in Brooklyn and the woman in front of me, she used her iPhone to pay for her coffee.
[52:26.470 --> 52:26.870]  Wow.
[52:28.150 --> 52:29.670]  And how did she do it exactly?
[52:30.970 --> 52:36.630]  She whipped out her phone and I guess she had her card on it because they just scanned her phone and she made the purchase.
[52:36.990 --> 52:38.950]  Never used her card, never used any cash.
[52:39.730 --> 52:40.070]  Amazing.
[52:40.390 --> 52:47.690]  Starbucks has a monthly reward or something like that card where you can hook it up into your credit card account and the app but there is...
[52:47.690 --> 52:49.710]  a credit card is involved somewhere along the line.
[52:49.970 --> 52:52.770]  But you're using your phone instead of using a card actually holding it out.
[52:52.770 --> 52:57.330]  You're not using a phone per se, you're using an app which goes into the Starbucks website.
[52:57.750 --> 52:58.150]  Okay.
[52:58.270 --> 53:00.210]  It's less technical than what they use in Europe.
[53:01.150 --> 53:07.090]  Yeah, but they definitely scanned they definitely scanned her phone with the same scanner they would scan like a barcode.
[53:07.110 --> 53:08.370]  I think it was a barcode on the phone.
[53:08.470 --> 53:10.570]  I couldn't see it but that's the impression that I had.
[53:11.370 --> 53:11.770]  Interesting.
[53:12.150 --> 53:13.010]  Okay, well thanks for the info.
[53:13.590 --> 53:14.430]  Okay, take care.
[53:15.050 --> 53:19.210]  Our listeners as always are providing us with updated information.
[53:19.430 --> 53:20.370]  Let's take another phone call.
[53:20.450 --> 53:20.750]  Good evening.
[53:20.750 --> 53:21.650]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:23.310 --> 53:23.730]  Hello?
[53:24.010 --> 53:24.510]  Yes, go ahead.
[53:25.030 --> 53:25.750]  Oh, I'm on the call?
[53:25.910 --> 53:26.430]  Yes, you are.
[53:26.510 --> 53:26.850]  On the air.
[53:27.210 --> 53:27.910]  Great, great show.
[53:28.350 --> 53:28.730]  Thank you.
[53:28.750 --> 53:33.750]  Just wanted to maybe throw out there I came across a really nice I guess phone app.
[53:34.510 --> 53:34.930]  Okay.
[53:35.170 --> 53:35.990]  If you'd be interested in that.
[53:36.110 --> 53:36.530]  Do share.
[53:37.950 --> 53:38.730]  It's really great.
[53:38.830 --> 53:39.890]  I used it for my mom.
[53:40.310 --> 53:41.270]  It's a phone app.
[53:41.410 --> 53:44.390]  It's a free drug card that people can just download.
[53:44.790 --> 53:46.130]  They also have a pet drug card.
[53:46.310 --> 53:47.070]  A free what?
[53:47.410 --> 53:52.330]  A free drug card that people can download on their iPhones.
[53:52.670 --> 53:53.550]  What's a drug card?
[53:54.230 --> 53:58.170]  A discount drug card that people can actually just download on their phone.
[53:58.330 --> 53:59.190]  It's absolutely free.
[53:59.370 --> 53:59.750]  Uh-huh.
[53:59.850 --> 54:05.230]  And they can actually just take it to the pharmacy and they can actually look up medication.
[54:05.610 --> 54:06.150]  Oh, okay.
[54:06.150 --> 54:07.490]  I totally misinterpreted that.
[54:07.790 --> 54:07.910]  Okay.
[54:08.110 --> 54:08.250]  Yeah.
[54:08.530 --> 54:10.410]  But it gave me another idea though.
[54:11.090 --> 54:12.250]  No, it's for free.
[54:12.450 --> 54:14.030]  It's for a discount on medication.
[54:14.070 --> 54:20.310]  It's a free app and people can just download it and they also have a pet drug card you can also...
[54:20.310 --> 54:21.870]  That one you have to pay $2 for.
[54:22.050 --> 54:22.330]  Uh-huh.
[54:22.470 --> 54:31.170]  But the regular drug card you can go to CVS, Rite, Walgreens, anywhere and get anywhere from a 30 to almost an 85% discount on their medications if they need it.
[54:31.310 --> 54:32.670]  85% discount.
[54:32.870 --> 54:33.370]  That's a...
[54:33.370 --> 54:33.890]  That's huge.
[54:33.890 --> 54:34.630]  Tarka change there.
[54:34.870 --> 54:44.190]  My mother's medication I think I saved her on some of the medications that she was taking and we didn't even know that they were generic also.
[54:45.350 --> 54:49.870]  And the website told us about it and then we told the doctor that's fine.
[54:49.930 --> 54:50.810]  He didn't even know about it.
[54:51.030 --> 54:56.090]  And we saved her probably close to like $157 just on her medication alone.
[54:56.290 --> 54:57.450]  Well, congratulations on that.
[54:57.570 --> 54:58.450]  That's fascinating.
[54:58.770 --> 55:01.950]  Let's see if we can take one more call in the brief time we have left.
[55:01.950 --> 55:03.250]  And good evening.
[55:03.450 --> 55:04.130]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:05.570 --> 55:06.370]  Speak up.
[55:06.910 --> 55:07.310]  Hello.
[55:07.610 --> 55:08.050]  Yes, go ahead.
[55:08.210 --> 55:08.350]  Quickly.
[55:09.230 --> 55:09.990]  I'm just...
[55:09.990 --> 55:11.090]  I'm calling to tell...
[55:11.090 --> 55:17.670]  let you know that in Kenya they use the cell phones to pay for everything.
[55:18.090 --> 55:18.330]  Really?
[55:18.590 --> 55:19.890]  There's no credit card involved.
[55:20.070 --> 55:20.990]  There's no bank involved.
[55:21.290 --> 55:22.670]  The phone company...
[55:22.670 --> 55:25.890]  If you want to pay your bill you...
[55:25.890 --> 55:26.970]  It's called M-PESA.
[55:27.170 --> 55:31.530]  M-Mobile and PESA means money in...
[55:31.530 --> 55:32.110]  Swahili.
[55:32.430 --> 55:33.310]  That's amazing.
[55:33.450 --> 55:33.630]  Wow.
[55:33.750 --> 55:33.910]  Okay.
[55:33.990 --> 55:35.190]  I'd like to look into this more.
[55:35.410 --> 55:41.350]  So in Kenya they've basically leapfrogged over into paying for everything with cell phones.
[55:41.770 --> 55:42.130]  Yeah.
[55:42.230 --> 55:42.950]  They pay for everything.
[55:43.170 --> 55:45.730]  If you want to send money you send it with your cell phone.
[55:45.930 --> 55:46.190]  If you...
[55:46.190 --> 55:49.150]  Every kind of transaction you can do with this M-PESA.
[55:49.170 --> 55:49.670]  So you're paying your...
[55:49.670 --> 55:54.630]  They've had it for about two years and they have it now because a lot of Kenyans go to England.
[55:55.090 --> 56:00.470]  Now you can send money by M-PESA to your relatives in Kenya from England.
[56:01.550 --> 56:02.310]  Very interesting.
[56:02.510 --> 56:04.270]  Well thanks so much for that information.
[56:05.070 --> 56:05.450]  You're welcome.
[56:05.830 --> 56:06.090]  All right.
[56:06.410 --> 56:10.230]  And that's going to pretty much do it for us here tonight on this edition of Off the Hook.
[56:10.550 --> 56:17.670]  I want to invite our listeners to continue listening to this radio station for the Personal Computer Show which is coming up next.
[56:18.590 --> 56:27.430]  And as mentioned we will be back again next week for another exciting edition of the program but it will be in fundraising mode.
[56:27.630 --> 56:29.590]  It's something that we we're looking forward to.
[56:29.730 --> 56:30.650]  We're looking forward to it greatly.
[56:31.210 --> 56:34.970]  And we know that our listeners will come through for us as they always do.
[56:36.450 --> 56:38.690]  We will see you again next week.
[56:39.150 --> 56:42.930]  And again write to us O-T-H at 2600.com Good night.
[01:00:00.200 --> 01:00:06.560]  And you're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM and WBAI.org.
[01:00:06.560 --> 01:00:11.720]  If you missed any of Off The Hook, go to WBAI.org in about 10 or 15 minutes.