[00:00.000 --> 00:04.620]  Remember, you must call or email ahead of time in order to access the building.
[00:04.920 --> 00:12.940]  It is through the support of volunteers and donors like you that we have been able to produce cutting-edge community radio in the Tri-State area for the last 50 years.
[00:13.220 --> 00:17.100]  Again, that's Fund Drive, February 2nd through 26th.
[00:17.260 --> 00:18.760]  We look forward to seeing you here.
[00:18.980 --> 00:27.980]  Remember to call 212-209-2826 or email us at volunteer at wbai.org.
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[00:31.620 --> 00:34.420]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI.
[00:34.480 --> 00:36.160]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:36.880 --> 00:37.920]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:01.870 --> 02:02.970]  And good evening to everybody.
[02:03.090 --> 02:04.250]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:04.470 --> 02:07.270]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:07.510 --> 02:09.170]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:09.350 --> 02:09.490]  Hi.
[02:10.070 --> 02:10.530]  Rob T.
[02:10.710 --> 02:11.230]  Firefly.
[02:11.450 --> 02:11.790]  Good evening.
[02:12.070 --> 02:12.590]  Voltaire.
[02:12.730 --> 02:12.850]  Hey.
[02:13.110 --> 02:13.330]  Hello.
[02:14.410 --> 02:14.730]  Kyle.
[02:15.450 --> 02:15.830]  Hello, hello.
[02:16.130 --> 02:17.610]  And Jim.
[02:18.150 --> 02:18.310]  Hello.
[02:18.310 --> 02:18.390]  Hello.
[02:18.890 --> 02:19.710]  Down in Philadelphia.
[02:19.910 --> 02:20.410]  Bernie S.
[02:20.850 --> 02:22.030]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:23.150 --> 02:27.190]  And we are here in the second week of our winter fundraiser.
[02:27.370 --> 02:30.250]  But, boy, do we have one amazing show for you tonight.
[02:30.270 --> 02:32.810]  It's going to be amazing.
[02:32.810 --> 02:33.650]  There's no other word for it.
[02:33.950 --> 02:34.350]  Amazing.
[02:34.450 --> 02:35.310]  I really think so.
[02:35.370 --> 02:35.930]  I really think so.
[02:36.730 --> 02:42.470]  First of all, anything going on momentous in people's personal lives, technology-wise?
[02:42.550 --> 02:43.050]  Anything like that?
[02:43.050 --> 02:46.390]  I don't think anything in our personal lives could be as momentous as the show we have planned.
[02:46.550 --> 02:47.210]  That's probably true.
[02:47.390 --> 02:47.430]  Exactly.
[02:47.430 --> 02:48.590]  Well, we certainly talked this up, haven't we?
[02:48.910 --> 02:54.070]  Well, if you've been following the news, of course, there's revolutions all over the country.
[02:54.310 --> 02:54.890]  Not the country.
[02:55.030 --> 02:55.190]  Yeah.
[02:55.470 --> 02:55.690]  I wish.
[02:56.170 --> 02:56.910]  Over the world.
[02:58.610 --> 03:03.910]  And all sorts of social unrest and scandals and various other things like that.
[03:05.270 --> 03:10.290]  And we have more information about what is going on with WikiLeaks.
[03:10.910 --> 03:23.550]  We reported on this a number of weeks ago that the US Justice Department is trying to get information from certain key individuals concerning their communications.
[03:24.210 --> 03:27.570]  In other words, they want to know what people are saying to each other.
[03:27.650 --> 03:29.250]  They want to know who's communicating with whom.
[03:29.250 --> 03:37.350]  And we found out about this because there was a court order on December 14th that was delivered to Twitter.
[03:37.690 --> 03:51.630]  And basically, that court order demanded that Twitter tell the government the names of people that certain other people were talking to through, I guess, Twitter private messages and things like that.
[03:52.890 --> 03:59.210]  And the reason, the only reason we found out about this was because Twitter decided to appeal it.
[03:59.310 --> 04:09.310]  Decided to appeal it to a court and have it unsealed so that they could tell their users that in fact this information was being sought.
[04:09.310 --> 04:34.180]  But that is how we found out that the Twitter accounts of our friend Rob Honkreep from Amsterdam, Jacob Abelbaum from the West Coast, and Icelandic parliamentarian Birgitta Jahnstadter, all connected to WikiLeaks one way or another.
[04:34.920 --> 04:37.620]  Their information was being sought by the U.S.
[04:37.700 --> 04:38.320]  Justice Department.
[04:38.980 --> 04:44.660]  Well, we have on the phone with us tonight, from Iceland, Birgitta Jahnstadter.
[04:45.500 --> 04:48.700]  Hopefully I'm pronouncing your name somewhat close to the way it should be pronounced.
[04:48.920 --> 04:49.220]  Welcome.
[04:50.040 --> 04:50.580]  Thank you.
[04:50.760 --> 04:51.560]  Great to be on the show.
[04:51.960 --> 04:56.100]  I have to say, it must be an incredible feeling to...
[04:56.100 --> 05:01.640]  I don't know how you found out about it, but if you did pick up the paper one day and realize that the U.S.
[05:01.740 --> 05:08.180]  government was interested in who you were talking to, was that a shock of any sort or did you expect it?
[05:08.620 --> 05:10.680]  I was waiting for something like this.
[05:10.840 --> 05:18.920]  Actually, I got an email from Twitter about this subpoena and my first reaction was to tweet about it.
[05:20.580 --> 05:23.640]  And then, you know, I had no idea that it would become...
[05:23.640 --> 05:31.600]  I just tweeted, like, just got this, blah, blah, blah, and it became sort of the most trending tweet on Twitter that night.
[05:31.880 --> 05:32.280]  Wow.
[05:32.480 --> 05:45.520]  And that's how, you know, the media immediately got to know about it and so forth, because I use... and I have used all sorts of means to use the internet to communicate with people for a long, long time.
[05:45.940 --> 06:07.960]  And when you find out that, you know, you might be under a criminal investigation because you basically were acting like a journalist team to bring forward such an incredibly important video as a collateral murder, you just feel that there's something very seriously wrong with our world.
[06:08.740 --> 06:11.360]  So I just got pissed off.
[06:11.700 --> 06:12.020]  Mm-hmm.
[06:12.420 --> 06:13.800]  Yeah, a lot of us did.
[06:14.480 --> 06:16.760]  But it's good, in a sense, as well.
[06:16.940 --> 06:29.700]  I'm very happy that they went after me because I'm in this strange position of being a parliamentarian and doing a lot of international work as a parliamentarian.
[06:29.700 --> 06:35.440]  I happen to be on the NATO Parliamentary Assembly and the Foreign Affairs Committee.
[06:36.120 --> 06:37.560]  And so I need to travel.
[06:37.560 --> 06:41.540]  And I might need to travel to the United States, for example, as part of my work.
[06:42.180 --> 06:50.700]  But it's also good that they did it because it raises awareness about us, the users, in social media.
[06:51.340 --> 06:58.360]  And I found it to be quite disturbing and I still find that nobody puts very personal stuff on Twitter.
[06:58.660 --> 07:00.360]  I mean, most people don't.
[07:00.500 --> 07:03.160]  I mean, how personal can you get in a haiku format?
[07:04.220 --> 07:04.800]  Right.
[07:04.880 --> 07:10.480]  And you're not going to be posting really sensitive, discriminating stuff on Twitter.
[07:11.420 --> 07:23.400]  I've used it mostly, you know, to raise awareness about different issues and so forth in relation to both my work and just as information enthusiastic.
[07:25.060 --> 07:44.240]  So what I'm concerned about is maybe not the Twitter thing, but I'm concerned about Facebook and on my Google account because I haven't received any letters saying that they did the incredible act that Twitter did.
[07:44.440 --> 07:46.560]  I really appreciate what Twitter did.
[07:46.600 --> 07:54.580]  And I think that they should be given the right or sort of the due credit for fighting for their users.
[07:54.920 --> 07:55.560]  That's right.
[07:55.560 --> 08:01.460]  If they hadn't said something, we probably wouldn't know that the US government was seeking this information in the first place.
[08:01.920 --> 08:02.200]  Exactly.
[08:02.560 --> 08:15.960]  And then you start to think, okay, how much information, you know, do like when you use social network or you're using your phone or emails or whatever, you use that for a special purpose.
[08:16.500 --> 08:30.020]  And information stored that you are using for that special purpose should only be used for that purpose, not for governments or corporations, unless you sign an agreement.
[08:30.440 --> 08:41.080]  And then you look at the fact that we're in sort of a brand new world when it comes to information and legal systems not having any borders anymore.
[08:42.720 --> 08:45.200]  And most people are not aware of it.
[08:46.180 --> 09:06.140]  And so one of my chief aims right now is to try to raise awareness about the status of, like, if you host your material in social media in the United States, you can't be a subject of submitting your information involuntary, your profiles, your, you know,
[09:06.200 --> 09:14.600]  every time you Google something, they're creating a larger profile on you, how you behave and what you're interested in and so forth.
[09:15.100 --> 09:20.880]  So I think people need to become aware of that to a much greater extent.
[09:22.480 --> 09:27.960]  And this case against me is a perfect tool to raise awareness about that.
[09:28.160 --> 09:35.040]  And it's amazing that that awareness is being raised by you, Rob, and Jacob.
[09:35.040 --> 09:40.540]  I wonder if there are even more people whose information is being sought.
[09:41.320 --> 09:41.880]  Definitely.
[09:41.880 --> 09:51.360]  I just saw this incredible, really creepy document just an hour before you called me.
[09:51.540 --> 09:52.720]  I don't know if you've seen it.
[09:52.800 --> 09:54.200]  It's been a bit on the news today.
[09:54.200 --> 10:11.700]  It is a document I found it on WikiLeaks, called the WikiLeaks Threat, an overview by Plantier Technologies, HB, Gary, Federal, and Burrico Technologies, conducted by something called Plantier.
[10:12.000 --> 10:14.880]  And it's about how to destabilize WikiLeaks.
[10:16.240 --> 10:23.880]  And it lists everybody that's sort of been favorable to them or worked as volunteers at one point or another.
[10:24.200 --> 10:27.240]  Is this the one that was released in March of last year?
[10:29.280 --> 10:29.760]  No.
[10:29.980 --> 10:30.680]  This is a new one.
[10:30.720 --> 10:31.260]  It's a new one.
[10:31.360 --> 10:31.640]  Wow.
[10:32.400 --> 10:32.640]  Yeah.
[10:33.020 --> 10:35.020]  This is sort of a corporation.
[10:35.240 --> 10:35.720]  It's a bank.
[10:35.920 --> 10:39.280]  They're, of course, very worried about the looming leaks.
[10:39.280 --> 10:39.700]  Yes.
[10:39.840 --> 10:43.640]  The looming bank leaks that Julian has been promising for some time.
[10:44.240 --> 10:44.400]  Yeah.
[10:44.400 --> 10:44.940]  Do you have a question?
[10:45.900 --> 10:46.420]  Yeah.
[10:46.600 --> 10:47.360]  I do have a question.
[10:47.540 --> 10:56.080]  Now, we know that the ACLU and the EFF in the United States are helping to respond to the subpoena that was issued against you.
[10:56.280 --> 11:01.620]  Can you tell us anything about how far along in the process that is or what actually is involved in that?
[11:01.960 --> 11:06.860]  Since you're in a unique situation of not even being a citizen of the United States.
[11:07.520 --> 11:08.040]  Right.
[11:08.040 --> 11:23.800]  Well, I'm still sort of, like, even if I'm not a citizen, I don't want to make the work of my lawyers harder because this is a hard case to try to stop this information being, because this is not my tweet, really.
[11:23.920 --> 11:33.200]  This is more about, you know, back-end material, like my IP numbers for how long I've been on and so forth.
[11:33.200 --> 11:41.380]  And obviously they don't know that it would be impossible for Twitter to maintain a lot of the information they're asking for.
[11:44.120 --> 12:04.280]  But I think that around the middle of this month, 15th of February, this is supposed to be taking into, or what's the right wording for it, taking into court and finalize, you know, an answer to, you know, if they're going to have to submit the material or not.
[12:04.280 --> 12:05.180]  Mm-hmm.
[12:05.420 --> 12:05.600]  Mm-hmm.
[12:05.600 --> 12:12.060]  Well, just yesterday, I believe, you were successful in getting documents unsealed from the court.
[12:12.460 --> 12:12.500]  Yes.
[12:12.500 --> 12:14.380]  Tell us something about those documents, what was in them.
[12:15.100 --> 12:19.000]  Well, these were... this is the bizarre thing for me.
[12:19.160 --> 12:21.720]  You know, I had no idea that your court system was like this.
[12:21.860 --> 12:30.140]  So, apparently this is all under some sort of shady, secret Patriot Act legislation.
[12:31.900 --> 12:42.960]  So, just the simple fact that the documents that my lawyers sent in on my behalf, and Jake's and Rob's, were under a seal.
[12:43.420 --> 12:45.940]  So, they just managed to unseal them.
[12:46.320 --> 12:46.900]  Wow.
[12:47.140 --> 12:53.440]  And then, as a result, I can now talk about that we had actually filed these documents and what is in the documents.
[12:54.400 --> 13:05.500]  And, for me, it's very interesting for me to experience this because this must be an experience a lot of people in the United States have to go through.
[13:05.880 --> 13:10.160]  And, for me, this is extremely strange.
[13:10.820 --> 13:13.060]  I have to say, it's just a little bit bizarre.
[13:13.700 --> 13:14.280]  So, really?
[13:14.820 --> 13:15.340]  Yeah.
[13:15.540 --> 13:24.940]  One thing that really strikes me as strange is you still don't know if other US companies have given your data to the government.
[13:24.940 --> 13:25.600]  Is that right?
[13:26.100 --> 13:26.900]  That's right.
[13:26.900 --> 13:32.160]  And, you know, I have sort of called for it in an informal way.
[13:32.360 --> 13:41.200]  And we will definitely be asking for, you know, if they have submitted information.
[13:41.200 --> 13:46.560]  But since they didn't do what Twitter did, I think it might be too late for them to fight.
[13:46.560 --> 14:05.740]  But they probably already handed over the information because in the sealed document that Twitter managed to open, it said that the authorities were ordering Twitter and then maybe the other social media as I mentioned to hand over this information within three days without our knowledge.
[14:06.220 --> 14:12.840]  And do you know how long they're not permitted to tell their users that they've handed over this information?
[14:12.840 --> 14:14.440]  I have no idea.
[14:15.420 --> 14:16.660]  I'll ask my lawyer.
[14:17.240 --> 14:20.520]  It's almost certain that they have gone to other companies.
[14:20.740 --> 14:31.460]  Just if you look at the language of the court order, it basically says they want credit card information and nobody uses credit cards to pay Twitter.
[14:31.460 --> 14:42.340]  So, obviously, they've written this with the intent of going to a whole lot of different social networking and internet providers to get as much information.
[14:42.500 --> 14:54.360]  And just to give an idea of the kind of information that they could get if they did succeed in getting this information from Twitter, they could find out where you actually were when you were using Twitter.
[14:54.500 --> 14:56.260]  They could get the information there.
[14:56.900 --> 15:00.760]  They could find out everybody that you talked to either through private messages.
[15:00.760 --> 15:03.280]  They could find out who is following...
[15:03.280 --> 15:05.920]  Well, they could find out who's following you just by using Twitter themselves.
[15:06.160 --> 15:06.560]  Yeah.
[15:06.700 --> 15:07.580]  It's not that hard.
[15:08.020 --> 15:09.800]  And we were talking earlier about this.
[15:09.920 --> 15:16.000]  The amount of information that some people put on social networking sites really makes it easy for the authorities to get this kind of information.
[15:16.000 --> 15:17.020]  Exactly.
[15:17.460 --> 15:24.420]  And in a sense, I mean, one has to ask, okay, is it safe to keep it in the United States?
[15:24.480 --> 15:31.760]  Or is it necessary for the companies in order for them to ensure their sort of international crew that wants to use this?
[15:32.860 --> 15:40.360]  You know, do they need to move to countries that are more favorable in the favor of the users rather than governments?
[15:40.360 --> 15:51.460]  And it's interesting also, like, I remember that Hillary Clinton did a really famous speech about the status of freedom of information and expression in China.
[15:52.040 --> 15:59.020]  And it appears to me that the authorities in the United States are just not looking hard enough on their home turf.
[16:00.780 --> 16:18.080]  Because if you start to go and dig into social networking, you know, who you talk to, who you are organizing yourself with in grassroots movements or activists and so forth, you are going really deep into something that is a breach on, you know, right of privacy.
[16:18.840 --> 16:25.300]  Now, we've had the cases with people like Jake Applebaum and Rob and basically private citizens with loud voices.
[16:25.300 --> 16:35.320]  But I'm wondering if there are things peculiar to your case, being a parliamentarian, being a sitting member of your government, now having a foreign government rooting around through your private communications.
[16:35.460 --> 16:40.320]  Are there implications to this, say, on the international political scale?
[16:40.320 --> 16:50.420]  Yeah, actually, the president of the Icelandic parliament, the Speaker of the House, she immediately contacted...
[16:51.180 --> 16:56.560]  There is an organization called the International Parliamentarian Union, IPU.
[16:57.640 --> 17:06.540]  And the Human Rights Division in this union has had two meetings on this issue.
[17:06.700 --> 17:16.960]  They see this as a groundbreaking issue because parliamentarians are encouraged increasingly to use social media as a part of their work.
[17:17.380 --> 17:25.860]  And one of the things that's also increased tremendously for parliamentarians is to work globally together on issues.
[17:27.580 --> 17:31.920]  And if you want to go the path that the U.S.
[17:31.960 --> 17:47.880]  authorities are going, then it's going to be very difficult to defend if, for example, Chinese authorities want the same sort of information in relation to senators that work on behalf of, let's say, Tibet or Taiwan or so forth.
[17:47.880 --> 17:53.700]  So this is opening up a whole can of worms that needs to be addressed.
[17:54.040 --> 17:59.040]  I personally, I'm not sure if parliamentarians should have more immunity.
[17:59.040 --> 18:06.920]  But once you are a parliamentarian, you have an opportunity to work more internationally.
[18:06.920 --> 18:17.760]  I do a lot of international work as a parliamentarian for, you know, different groups like nuclear disarmament and Tibet and so forth, and against the war in Iraq.
[18:20.180 --> 18:22.740]  So it's raising...
[18:22.740 --> 18:31.300]  Actually, they're doing a report, a special report on this, the IPU, for the next big meeting that's going to be in April.
[18:31.520 --> 18:34.340]  And it's also being discussed at the United Nations.
[18:35.160 --> 18:51.320]  And so, because you can't be encouraging people to use this sort of communication or form, unless at least they know that their information might be submitted to similar investigation as I am under a subject to.
[18:51.520 --> 19:01.420]  It sounds like part of the problem is that Twitter and Facebook and these types of companies, and even Google have their servers located in the United States, which has very problematic laws when it comes to privacy.
[19:02.480 --> 19:06.240]  I know that in Iceland, you're trying to do something to correct that.
[19:06.440 --> 19:08.240]  Can you tell us a little bit about that initiative?
[19:09.420 --> 19:09.840]  Yeah.
[19:10.080 --> 19:17.680]  So what we did, when everything collapsed in Iceland, some of us were aware of the shock doctrine, Banana McClein.
[19:19.180 --> 19:26.560]  And some of us were aware of, or most Icelanders are very much aware of the concept of tax haven.
[19:26.560 --> 19:34.680]  So if you want to start a tax haven in your country, what you do is you pull together all the best laws from around the world in order to create secrecy.
[19:35.400 --> 19:38.560]  What we did was that we used their methods.
[19:39.620 --> 19:49.340]  So we looked at and scanned for all the best functioning laws in the world to ensure freedom of information, expression, and speech.
[19:49.340 --> 19:59.600]  And in this new global environment we're living in, where information doesn't have any borders, it doesn't matter where you host your stuff, the reader will never know where it comes from.
[20:01.240 --> 20:06.020]  So we went into a really unique process of creating laws.
[20:06.020 --> 20:24.140]  So when I first heard this idea, I think it originally came from John Perry Barlow at the conference here in Iceland, and then a year later Julian Assange and Daniel Smith had sort of developed it further and explained it in such a way that at least me and some other people thought,
[20:24.260 --> 20:30.480]  hey, wow, this is really great if we can make a safe haven for freedom of information in Iceland.
[20:31.840 --> 20:45.080]  And that's a sort of a new way for us to go after this collapse that would hold hands and hands in the vision of a small nation, you know, what does a small nation do best?
[20:45.540 --> 20:51.840]  They were really good at sort of being icebreakers for, you know, fighting for freedom of...
[20:53.580 --> 20:58.980]  not necessarily freedom of information, but, you know, for human rights and peace initiatives.
[20:58.980 --> 21:05.720]  And this really fits into that image or that path that Icelanders sort of want to take.
[21:07.000 --> 21:09.260]  So we tasked the government.
[21:09.480 --> 21:18.420]  What we did is a group of people from all over the world created this parliamentary proposal together or the seeds behind it.
[21:18.420 --> 21:37.500]  So we took 13 different laws and either improved them or copied or were inspired by laws from countries like the United States, from Sweden, from Belgium and France, and always looked at the best functioning laws.
[21:37.500 --> 21:47.460]  And, of course, WikiLeaks had a lot of experience, both first-hand or from horror stories they heard from journalists or people trying to publish material.
[21:48.920 --> 22:14.420]  And so once I filed it, I had... I never thought actually I could get it through the parliament because I'm from the smallest movement in the parliament, and parliamentary proposals and bills usually don't pass from minorities, not even from other parliamentarians that are part of government.
[22:15.200 --> 22:23.920]  So, to my incredible surprise, we somehow managed to push it through, so the entire parliament said yes, including the government.
[22:24.580 --> 22:29.240]  And it is being worked on now, mapping out...
[22:29.240 --> 22:37.800]  because we are part of a lot of international sort of laws related to the EU and so forth.
[22:38.160 --> 22:47.640]  So they're just trying to map out all the different laws, and we have now one of the laws being processed in the parliament about source protection.
[22:48.260 --> 22:49.520]  So it's happening.
[22:50.320 --> 22:52.140]  Yeah, it certainly is.
[22:52.260 --> 22:55.240]  And much congratulations for getting it that far.
[22:55.600 --> 23:01.840]  We're speaking with Brigitte Jansdard, a member of parliament from Iceland.
[23:01.840 --> 23:10.180]  And we're going to speak more about the whole WikiLeaks connection, and more about the investigation by the US government.
[23:10.420 --> 23:17.460]  But I mentioned this to you earlier, Brigitte, as far as the necessities of non-commercial radio here in the United States.
[23:17.500 --> 23:20.260]  And we are in the middle of a fundraising drive here.
[23:20.820 --> 23:23.200]  So we'll try to make this as painless as possible.
[23:23.200 --> 23:26.400]  And our listeners can help make it painless by responding.
[23:27.020 --> 23:32.320]  I think what we are offering tonight, though, is going to be unprecedented and wildly popular.
[23:33.940 --> 23:38.900]  Basically, this whole WikiLeaks thing has been going on now for, it seems like forever.
[23:40.720 --> 23:48.400]  Well, this is something that has gotten a lot of people very concerned and worried about being investigated.
[23:48.400 --> 23:59.980]  As Brigitte has told us, it certainly can happen to anyone, even members of governments can be investigated, simply for speaking their minds and for supporting freedom of speech.
[24:00.480 --> 24:05.160]  And they're very interested in who you're talking to and who else shares these opinions.
[24:05.620 --> 24:12.580]  So I know a lot of people are very paranoid about actually going out and finding these documents themselves.
[24:12.580 --> 24:19.580]  Well, what we're doing here, we're making it nice and simple for everybody out there in Radioland.
[24:19.620 --> 24:33.900]  What we've done is we've grabbed the documents, the documents that WikiLeaks has exposed over the last year or so, and made them available on a thumb drive.
[24:33.900 --> 24:52.420]  So basically, for a pledge of $100, 212-209-2950, you will get WikiLeaks delivered to you without you having to actually connect on the internet, be followed by government agents, or otherwise have your freedom threatened.
[24:52.760 --> 24:54.440]  And, you know, it's amazing.
[24:54.720 --> 24:57.480]  Kyle, I know you've been working on this for quite some time.
[24:57.480 --> 25:02.140]  It's not as easy as you might think to find all the documents in the first place.
[25:03.180 --> 25:09.560]  On the net, they kind of get obscured by all sorts of noise.
[25:10.300 --> 25:14.840]  So tracking down, and we're talking tens of thousands of documents in varying formats.
[25:15.040 --> 25:15.340]  Yes.
[25:15.520 --> 25:21.460]  And it's just something that having it all on your computer, right there, locally.
[25:21.780 --> 25:21.920]  Right.
[25:22.080 --> 25:24.840]  That's something that I think is essential.
[25:24.840 --> 25:29.400]  It's very important, and it might not be as easy as you think to go out and do it yourself.
[25:29.860 --> 25:30.180]  Yeah.
[25:30.400 --> 25:32.300]  There's a lot of different sites out there.
[25:32.480 --> 25:35.340]  People have put them in different compressed formats.
[25:35.420 --> 25:53.600]  People have put these things called torrent files out there to help make distribution of the information work in many more ways than just having it on one site so that it's not susceptible to being taken down in any way.
[25:53.600 --> 25:55.480]  So what we did is went out and looked.
[25:55.640 --> 26:02.600]  And after some of the problems happened with WikiLeaks.org site where they're...
[26:03.640 --> 26:10.000]  I don't know exactly the details off the top of my head, but basically they had some problems with their domain, and people started putting up mirrors.
[26:10.000 --> 26:25.140]  And a lot of the mirrors show recent stuff and have some of the sort of facts about the organization and contact information, but not a lot of the mirrors are actually hosting all of the information, all of the data.
[26:25.140 --> 26:38.220]  And so we found very quickly that the actual Wikipedia or WikiLeaks.org site, excuse me, is the only place that actually has most all of the documents in one spot.
[26:38.220 --> 26:46.020]  So we were able to download them and put them together in an uncompressed form, and we're going to be offering them on this thumb drive.
[26:46.020 --> 26:51.300]  Now, we're talking about 70,000 entries for the Afghan war diary.
[26:51.600 --> 26:51.820]  Yes.
[26:52.460 --> 26:54.460]  Thousands of the Iraq war logs.
[26:55.180 --> 26:58.260]  That's actually 400,000 of the Iraq war logs.
[26:58.400 --> 27:00.380]  Well, the 400,000, I think, is what they're going to release.
[27:00.540 --> 27:03.560]  I think they've only released a couple of thousand so far.
[27:03.980 --> 27:04.780]  No, that's the cables.
[27:05.160 --> 27:05.560]  That's the cables.
[27:05.580 --> 27:06.000]  Oh, that's the cables.
[27:06.020 --> 27:07.400]  Okay, you know, there are so many...
[27:07.400 --> 27:08.120]  There's so many different documents.
[27:08.200 --> 27:08.820]  ...so many different things.
[27:08.820 --> 27:14.860]  Yeah, the Iraq war logs, I believe the number is around some odd 400,000, some odd files.
[27:15.180 --> 27:21.140]  It's reading material for the rest of your life, which hopefully will be a long one, even if the government agents find out about this.
[27:21.760 --> 27:33.700]  But for a pledge of $100, 212-209-2950, you get the WikiLeaks document delivered to you in a thumb drive that you simply plug into your computer.
[27:33.940 --> 27:34.480]  Totally offline.
[27:34.480 --> 27:39.100]  You can copy it and use a thumb drive for something else if you feel like.
[27:39.100 --> 27:40.460]  You can analyze documents.
[27:40.460 --> 27:42.840]  You can search for all kinds of interesting strings.
[27:43.160 --> 27:47.660]  And if you act now, you'll get the collateral murder video as well.
[27:48.460 --> 27:52.900]  39 minutes of utter horror that is perpetrated by the U.S.
[27:53.040 --> 27:53.440]  military.
[27:54.320 --> 27:54.840]  It's...
[27:54.840 --> 27:57.820]  You know, what's amazing about this is that...
[27:57.820 --> 28:02.480]  I saw this program the other night on CBC called The Fifth Estate.
[28:02.740 --> 28:05.280]  I believe, Brigitte, you've seen this as well.
[28:05.360 --> 28:06.120]  You've certainly heard about it.
[28:06.120 --> 28:06.720]  The WikiRebels.
[28:07.140 --> 28:08.080]  Yeah, I've seen it.
[28:08.320 --> 28:08.580]  Yeah.
[28:08.820 --> 28:10.380]  You feature prominently in it.
[28:11.100 --> 28:12.740]  And it's fascinating.
[28:12.920 --> 28:14.780]  It's a very interesting story.
[28:14.920 --> 28:15.780]  Well documented.
[28:16.300 --> 28:24.560]  But one thing they did in this program that I don't think they've done on any over-the-air program in the United States, they showed a good part of the collateral murder video.
[28:24.560 --> 28:27.520]  And when you see something like that, when you see U.S.
[28:28.020 --> 28:39.780]  helicopters firing onto unarmed people while the idiots who did it are basically making jokes and just wanting to kill as many people as possible.
[28:39.780 --> 28:47.780]  And then when they finally shoot some kids, they transfer the blame to the people on the ground saying, well, they shouldn't have brought those kids into a battle.
[28:47.780 --> 28:52.900]  A battle which wasn't in existence until the helicopter started firing on unarmed people in the first place.
[28:53.160 --> 28:59.180]  These kinds of things, when you see that right in front of you on a TV screen, you realize something is seriously wrong.
[28:59.180 --> 29:01.040]  And something needs to be done about this.
[29:01.140 --> 29:05.240]  And that the release of this information is a tremendously good thing.
[29:05.240 --> 29:11.340]  And we should not even be talking about penalizing people who release information like this.
[29:11.520 --> 29:13.160]  I believe Brigitte, we were talking about this earlier.
[29:13.580 --> 29:16.740]  Releasing information about a war crime is not a crime.
[29:16.740 --> 29:17.600]  Exactly.
[29:17.940 --> 29:19.360]  And I think it's very important.
[29:19.960 --> 29:29.860]  One of the things that Wikileaks has done, and I really am happy about that, is that they have brought back into the dialogue the role of the whistleblower and how important it is.
[29:30.320 --> 29:38.980]  And to be a whistleblower is not being a traitor, but actually reporting either, you know, financial crime, war crime.
[29:39.160 --> 29:40.440]  It's not a criminal act.
[29:40.440 --> 29:43.080]  It is actually a heroic act.
[29:43.940 --> 29:53.720]  And after watching this video, I can't count how many times I watched it because one of my tasks was to pull out all the stills and to put on the website.
[29:55.280 --> 29:58.360]  It's the most disturbing video I've ever seen in my life.
[29:58.360 --> 30:01.980]  And I really encourage people to see it.
[30:02.440 --> 30:03.940]  You can find it on YouTube.
[30:04.340 --> 30:09.960]  And I'm disturbed by how few people in the United States have actually seen it.
[30:10.060 --> 30:14.400]  And even prominent human rights lawyers have never heard of it.
[30:15.440 --> 30:15.920]  So...
[30:15.920 --> 30:16.500]  And I think...
[30:16.500 --> 30:23.040]  I find it's also important that somebody is brought to justice in relation to this other than the whistleblower.
[30:24.120 --> 30:24.600]  Absolutely.
[30:24.760 --> 30:30.060]  In fact, the whistleblower should be heralded for making it public in the first place so that we can have this conversation.
[30:30.680 --> 30:39.920]  But we do need to see some support here for what WikiLeaks is doing, what Brigitte is doing, what we're doing here at WBAI.
[30:40.180 --> 30:41.040]  Pledge of $100.
[30:41.080 --> 30:45.980]  You get all of the WikiLeaks documents that have been released as of 2010.
[30:46.340 --> 30:47.300]  You'll get the video.
[30:47.500 --> 30:51.860]  You'll get all kinds of information that right now is...
[30:53.360 --> 30:54.980]  You can find it if you look hard.
[30:55.100 --> 30:56.100]  If you look hard, you can find it.
[30:56.160 --> 30:57.000]  You can track it down.
[30:57.340 --> 31:00.880]  But the media has not reported on more than a fraction of it.
[31:01.000 --> 31:05.480]  So you may well find some kind of smoking gun or very interesting information.
[31:05.480 --> 31:07.480]  It all comes to you on a thumb drive.
[31:07.720 --> 31:08.060]  Gigs.
[31:08.240 --> 31:09.140]  Gigs of information.
[31:10.040 --> 31:18.360]  Gigabytes of documents and videos and all manner of things that the US government and governments all around the world do not want you to see.
[31:18.640 --> 31:21.280]  Never been offered before in this forum.
[31:21.740 --> 31:24.400]  And I don't know what the reaction to it's going to be, to be honest.
[31:24.520 --> 31:26.960]  It's something kind of daring that we're doing here at WBAI.
[31:27.140 --> 31:29.780]  But that's why we exist, to do things like this.
[31:29.900 --> 31:32.300]  212-209-2950.
[31:32.300 --> 31:33.880]  Let's see those phones light up.
[31:33.940 --> 31:34.780]  We can see them this week.
[31:34.780 --> 31:36.880]  We know how many calls are coming in.
[31:37.100 --> 31:39.100]  And right now, we only have one call.
[31:39.220 --> 31:39.980]  We had two before.
[31:40.160 --> 31:43.520]  But we can have about 10 if people start calling in.
[31:43.640 --> 31:48.320]  These are the kinds of things that you will really want to have.
[31:48.460 --> 31:49.140]  Share with your friends.
[31:49.180 --> 31:50.700]  You can copy these files.
[31:51.000 --> 31:58.000]  And ask yourself, have you actually gone to the trouble of going somewhere online and downloading all of this?
[31:58.000 --> 32:01.940]  If you have not, then you're in danger of never getting a hold of it.
[32:01.940 --> 32:07.440]  Because, well, you know, every government in the world wants to turn the internet off when they feel like it, including ours.
[32:07.780 --> 32:09.120]  They all want to do this.
[32:09.400 --> 32:10.960]  And sometimes they succeed.
[32:11.080 --> 32:13.320]  Sometimes they succeed in getting things taken off the net.
[32:14.280 --> 32:18.680]  And believe it or not, it can become a lot harder to find things that are very popular today.
[32:18.680 --> 32:22.800]  So, what better insurance than to have a copy of yourself?
[32:22.920 --> 32:31.180]  Oh, and speaking of insurance, this also comes with the famed insurance file of Julian Assange, which basically is an encrypted file.
[32:31.420 --> 32:42.600]  And if the word is given, the passphrase is given, you simply type that in, and magically, all of a sudden, something will appear on your screen.
[32:42.600 --> 32:48.020]  So, all kinds of information that is basically insurance against all of this being shut down.
[32:48.600 --> 32:50.760]  It's kind of a cool concept.
[32:51.200 --> 32:53.800]  212-209-2950.ret.
[32:54.360 --> 32:54.840]  Sorry.
[32:55.240 --> 32:59.660]  Now, something I would really like to point out for the audience is what exactly is being offered here.
[32:59.880 --> 33:07.400]  You know, it's one thing to know that this information is out online, but what we're offering is basically hours and hours of work.
[33:07.400 --> 33:17.360]  You know, anyone I know who's ever downloaded any of this amount of information, WikiLeaks data, it's hard to find.
[33:17.500 --> 33:19.980]  It's like hours and hours of detective work.
[33:20.140 --> 33:21.220]  We have four calls on the line.
[33:21.340 --> 33:22.940]  212-209-2950.
[33:23.260 --> 33:27.960]  And, you know, it's also possible to muddy up the data with fake data.
[33:28.040 --> 33:28.300]  Yeah.
[33:28.480 --> 33:31.840]  There's all kinds of tracking that can be done on...
[33:31.840 --> 33:39.660]  You know, there's this spam going around saying that your IP was logged as connecting to WikiLeaks and now you're being fined $250.
[33:40.240 --> 33:43.280]  Send the $250 to this address in Nigeria or something like that.
[33:43.900 --> 33:54.020]  I mean, it's silly, but it gives you an idea of the way some people are thinking that, wow, of course, it's not a crime to connect to this website and people should, and people should support the website as well.
[33:54.020 --> 33:58.300]  But it just shows that that's the mindset in many people.
[33:58.300 --> 34:06.020]  And by making it available easily, where you can share it, where you can have it, it's one way of ensuring that this information never gets forgotten.
[34:06.280 --> 34:17.480]  Yeah, with the WikiLeaks site going down and everything, and if you're trying to track down this information, and making sure that what you have is the real thing becomes very difficult.
[34:17.740 --> 34:18.660]  You know, who do you go to?
[34:18.660 --> 34:24.900]  You know, the internet is not exactly something that, you know, what's it called?
[34:27.140 --> 34:27.860]  All right, Rob.
[34:28.260 --> 34:35.200]  Well, one other detail about this jump drive that is kind of fun is that it's not just what's inside it, it's what's outside it.
[34:35.280 --> 34:37.820]  It's printed with the logo of WBAI itself.
[34:38.440 --> 34:40.860]  It's a nice, decent-looking drive.
[34:40.860 --> 34:49.220]  You can hang off your keychain and be known to anyone who looks as a supporter of non-commercial, listener-supported radio here at WBAI.
[34:49.280 --> 34:56.180]  Or if you work in a job where you're not supposed to like peace or justice, you can just take the clip off and no one will know.
[34:56.640 --> 34:57.680]  Bernie, you're down there in Philadelphia.
[34:57.860 --> 34:58.560]  We haven't heard much from you.
[34:58.620 --> 34:59.660]  What do you have to say about all this?
[34:59.820 --> 35:04.260]  I mean, I think this is an amazing premium, Emmanuel, and I want to thank Kyle and everybody else.
[35:04.360 --> 35:14.120]  I know there's a lot of work put into collating all of these documents, the complete Wikipedia archives that have been released to the public so far.
[35:14.120 --> 35:17.020]  We're talking thousands of megabytes.
[35:17.300 --> 35:20.000]  You probably can't read the rest of this information.
[35:20.460 --> 35:26.700]  If you spend an hour a day, the rest of your life you could be reading these documents.
[35:26.920 --> 35:30.140]  But what's nice is, using various tools, you can search these documents.
[35:30.700 --> 35:34.320]  And basically, you'll have WikiLeaks archives in your pocket.
[35:34.340 --> 35:37.500]  You don't have to worry about going online, being tracked.
[35:38.140 --> 35:42.980]  And even more importantly, you can serve as part of WikiLeaks insurance.
[35:44.100 --> 35:54.980]  against bad things happening to WikiLeaks or Julian Assange, by having this so-called insurance file on your key chain, on this flash drive.
[35:55.360 --> 36:07.020]  It also makes it a lot harder to prosecute people like Brigitte, simply for talking to people when everybody has access to this information and everybody is helping to spread it around.
[36:07.020 --> 36:10.880]  It becomes basically the government versus the people at that point.
[36:10.880 --> 36:11.740]  That's right.
[36:11.820 --> 36:16.700]  The more people that have this information, the harder it is for governments around the world to shut it down.
[36:16.920 --> 36:20.160]  We know the United States government is trying to shut down WikiLeaks.
[36:20.320 --> 36:25.060]  It's already succeeded through some of our high-ranking parliamentarians.
[36:25.060 --> 36:32.400]  Senator Joe Lieberman, for instance, pressured Amazon.com to stop hosting WikiLeaks.
[36:32.600 --> 36:35.840]  And this is really a dangerous threat to free speech.
[36:36.200 --> 36:43.260]  And what's really sickening is that this is information about our own government, what our own government is doing that we should be aware of.
[36:43.500 --> 36:46.980]  And high-ranking officials in our own government are trying to shut this down.
[36:46.980 --> 36:47.920]  We should be seeing this.
[36:48.060 --> 36:52.420]  This is our tax dollars that paid for a lot of these documents to be created.
[36:52.700 --> 36:55.020]  And it's really important that we be able to see them.
[36:55.160 --> 36:58.160]  And it's difficult to go out and get all of this stuff on your own.
[36:58.640 --> 37:05.000]  It would be great for you to call 212-209-2950 right now.
[37:05.000 --> 37:13.560]  Pledge your support for WBAI, the only station I know of, that brings you this kind of information with this much depth and volume.
[37:13.840 --> 37:15.840]  And support the station for $100.
[37:16.120 --> 37:19.860]  We will send you a gift of WikiLeaks in your pocket.
[37:20.040 --> 37:23.240]  212-209-2950.
[37:23.400 --> 37:26.180]  I don't know if that's the image I want to convey, but...
[37:26.180 --> 37:27.580]  Yeah, WikiLeaks.
[37:27.740 --> 37:29.460]  Portable WikiLeaks.
[37:29.900 --> 37:31.800]  Yeah, let's just...
[37:31.800 --> 37:33.400]  Yeah, you go with that, Kyle.
[37:33.400 --> 37:41.820]  Yeah, Manuel, I wanted to mention just the impact and the real work that needs to go into, like, having these documents, having access to it.
[37:41.980 --> 37:51.400]  The premise of what WikiLeaks does by making this stuff available to us is that we can go through it and we can actually find what's in this information.
[37:51.560 --> 37:52.520]  Like, there's work to be done.
[37:52.620 --> 37:55.280]  We need to find out what else is in this information.
[37:55.280 --> 38:07.340]  Because when you look through it, when you watch the videos, I'm struck with a lot, like, the impact it has on me and how removed, for instance, in the collateral murder video, these troops seem.
[38:07.500 --> 38:09.220]  They seem cold.
[38:09.460 --> 38:10.220]  It's a video game to them.
[38:10.220 --> 38:11.300]  Yeah, they're totally removed.
[38:11.480 --> 38:14.240]  It's in black and white, so there's no color.
[38:14.340 --> 38:16.100]  They don't see anybody's faces, really.
[38:17.020 --> 38:20.860]  And, you know, that's the kind of the thing.
[38:21.000 --> 38:21.340]  I don't know.
[38:21.420 --> 38:28.180]  After the massacre, you see there's one instance in the video where there's a soldier walking around taking still pictures.
[38:28.180 --> 38:29.300]  And I'm a photographer.
[38:29.300 --> 38:31.740]  I cannot even imagine what that's about.
[38:32.060 --> 38:40.780]  But just seeing this one video of a massacre of this journalist, it only makes me think of how much more there is.
[38:40.780 --> 38:50.300]  And it really, it blew my mind when I first saw this stuff to imagine there's a vast amount of still pictures for every other massacre that's ever been in Iraq.
[38:50.540 --> 38:54.540]  And that there's so many other incidents out there.
[38:54.620 --> 38:58.700]  We just see this one sliver and just the thought that, well, there's no still pictures.
[38:58.800 --> 38:59.840]  I didn't see any still pictures.
[38:59.960 --> 39:01.200]  That wasn't part of what came out.
[39:01.200 --> 39:02.240]  They exist someplace.
[39:02.660 --> 39:03.100]  They're somewhere.
[39:03.340 --> 39:06.660]  They're in a computer system and somebody's got access to them.
[39:06.660 --> 39:22.540]  And we, as the people that basically are in charge of this military US occupation, you really got to think about that and how you can contribute to stopping that.
[39:22.640 --> 39:29.660]  Because this information is, well, it's in part your responsibility to think about it.
[39:29.660 --> 39:31.720]  And I don't know, it just, it made me think a lot.
[39:31.880 --> 39:44.780]  And, you know, I think we can pour through some of this other data and really concentrate on the data and not sort of these, quote, scandals and things involving Julian.
[39:44.940 --> 39:45.680]  That's not the point.
[39:45.860 --> 39:47.880]  The real emphasis here should be on the data.
[39:47.880 --> 39:49.740]  And that's what we're providing for you.
[39:49.740 --> 39:49.940]  Absolutely.
[39:49.940 --> 39:55.280]  So people, please call in 212-209-2950 for $100.
[39:55.640 --> 40:02.400]  We will give you a thumb drive with all of this data from the 2010 WikiLeaks releases.
[40:02.700 --> 40:03.320]  Including the video.
[40:03.480 --> 40:04.880]  Now, Brigitte, let me ask you.
[40:04.940 --> 40:10.080]  Do you know what has happened to the soldiers responsible for that?
[40:10.080 --> 40:12.660]  If there has been any kind of prosecution of them?
[40:12.660 --> 40:14.900]  No, none whatsoever.
[40:14.920 --> 40:23.120]  And I think that maybe because there has been so much material coming out of WikiLeaks, that this video got sort of lost.
[40:23.900 --> 40:28.420]  And I think it's great that the attention is back on it.
[40:28.620 --> 40:34.720]  And great what the CPC did in Canada.
[40:34.940 --> 40:35.380]  Yeah.
[40:35.840 --> 40:41.060]  By also raising awareness on this incredibly courageous person called Ethan McCord.
[40:41.060 --> 40:50.280]  And I happened to be sort of the first contact person with him when I was helping with the collateral murder video.
[40:50.920 --> 40:56.020]  And I was maintaining the YouTube account and I got this email from him.
[40:56.280 --> 40:59.160]  Or a soldier saying, I am the soldier that found the children.
[40:59.440 --> 41:01.780]  And I haven't been able to stop thinking about them.
[41:01.780 --> 41:04.940]  Just, you know, the same day the video came out in the US.
[41:04.940 --> 41:10.920]  And since then, he has just been doing so much incredible work.
[41:11.800 --> 41:24.140]  And he sent out him and another, I think, one or two other guys from the same, what do you call it, battle station.
[41:24.140 --> 41:24.840]  Regiment?
[41:25.020 --> 41:25.140]  Regiment?
[41:25.140 --> 41:25.380]  Platoon?
[41:25.860 --> 41:26.120]  Yeah.
[41:26.360 --> 41:26.480]  Yeah.
[41:26.480 --> 41:29.780]  I don't know what language they speak, but we haven't heard...
[41:29.780 --> 41:33.900]  And they came forward and they sent a letter on apology to all the people affected.
[41:34.200 --> 41:36.600]  That hasn't been publicized all that much, has it?
[41:36.600 --> 41:43.960]  No, and I remember me and Julian were both speaking at Berkeley in April last year.
[41:44.120 --> 41:47.280]  And we actually printed it with all these investigative journalists.
[41:47.460 --> 41:50.420]  It was a seminar on investigative journalism.
[41:50.680 --> 41:56.460]  And we printed out his letter and we handed it over to all the journalists and nobody followed up on it.
[41:56.460 --> 42:05.920]  So there is this fear, both with journalists and all this self-censorship that's going on that's quite disturbing.
[42:06.760 --> 42:22.380]  And I think that probably what I find to be the most interesting in everything that's happening is sort of like all these little grassroots journalism and citizen journalism and the social media has really been picking it up.
[42:22.380 --> 42:33.220]  And so there seems to be a layer that's getting stronger and stronger of this, another dimension of getting information.
[42:33.300 --> 42:41.940]  And people have lost faith in the big media because they know it is both so self-censored and just censored by the owners.
[42:42.360 --> 42:50.140]  So you look at what's been happening in Tunisia and Egypt and a lot of other countries in that region.
[42:50.140 --> 43:08.560]  And what has inspired the people to come out, it's mostly young people that have come out that are well-educated, got onto the Internet, found out what was really going on in their countries, including material leaked from the cables at WikiLeaks.
[43:08.780 --> 43:17.120]  So I think we are witnessing an incredibly special times in our world and an incredible opportunity for real change.
[43:17.120 --> 43:21.740]  And I am hoping that that is going to be happening in your country as well.
[43:22.100 --> 43:31.400]  And you have to be extremely vigilant not to let the so-called Internet killer switch bill get through.
[43:31.880 --> 43:40.180]  I mean, you have to start to work against it and lobby against it and raise awareness about what it is, because you saw what happened in Egypt.
[43:40.180 --> 43:44.700]  They shut down the Internet and the mobile phones.
[43:45.240 --> 44:03.820]  But, however, because of the infrastructure that all these activists and people that are online managed to create in a really amazing way, we managed to get all these windows into Egypt so they couldn't isolate the people from the rest of the world, from us witnessing what was going on,
[44:03.840 --> 44:11.340]  so we could apply pressure and have a dialogue about what was going on, both as individuals and also in Parliament and so forth.
[44:11.480 --> 44:18.440]  So the Internet and social networks, they're being used as actual tools for social change around the world.
[44:18.980 --> 44:19.500]  Absolutely.
[44:19.680 --> 44:23.540]  It's really fascinating to watch it and to be part of it.
[44:23.540 --> 44:38.980]  And I think that even if you know that the government might be monitoring you and so forth, I really encourage people not to get off and not get paranoid and afraid to use it.
[44:39.820 --> 44:49.620]  Create new networks and use the services that we already have, like we have PGPs, help people to learn how to use it.
[44:50.220 --> 44:51.180]  use TOR.
[44:51.900 --> 44:52.920]  TOR is brilliant.
[44:54.420 --> 44:56.760]  It hides your IP number.
[44:56.920 --> 44:59.680]  So if you're searching Google, they can't trace you.
[45:00.140 --> 45:04.500]  And if more people would use TOR, then it would be a lot faster.
[45:05.520 --> 45:10.420]  That's spelled T-O-R and the website is TORproject.org?
[45:10.620 --> 45:12.280]  I think it's just TOR.org.
[45:12.640 --> 45:13.240]  TOR.org?
[45:13.400 --> 45:13.800]  Yeah.
[45:14.000 --> 45:15.040]  They're shaking their heads.
[45:15.120 --> 45:16.080]  I think it's TORproject.org.
[45:16.080 --> 45:17.880]  Okay, we're going to find TORproject.org.
[45:17.980 --> 45:24.200]  And that's, of course, what Jacob Applebaum is really big into as well, and is basically preaching that throughout the world.
[45:24.640 --> 45:25.000]  Yeah.
[45:25.180 --> 45:26.700]  And it's... yeah, you're right.
[45:26.780 --> 45:28.320]  It's a great way to...
[45:28.320 --> 45:28.800]  Yeah, it's TORproject.
[45:28.920 --> 45:29.300]  That's right.
[45:29.460 --> 45:30.800]  You were right, of course.
[45:31.820 --> 45:46.020]  You mentioned, Brigitte, your hope for some sort of social change in the U.S., which is, I think, a hope shared by many of us, but I wonder if you could talk a bit about how your country, Iceland, just sort of collapsed and how WikiLeaks played a part in that,
[45:46.520 --> 45:50.960]  or in the recovery, in the building of new institutions.
[45:52.500 --> 46:02.640]  Well, what happened in Iceland is the big banks in Iceland actually were social banks, like...
[46:02.640 --> 46:04.900]  and they were privatized in 2005.
[46:06.380 --> 46:11.020]  And before that, the current government had deregulated a lot of things.
[46:11.020 --> 46:15.000]  So, just like has happened in your country.
[46:16.020 --> 46:23.100]  So, what happened is that the banks, because of EU regulations, managed to expand incredibly.
[46:23.540 --> 46:39.100]  And what we have... they expanded so large, fast and big, into Europe, that our financial collapse was the third largest in the history of humankind.
[46:41.280 --> 46:42.060]  Excuse me.
[46:42.320 --> 46:56.140]  And when that happened, we realized that not only did everything collapse, we were the most developed nation according to the United Nations in 2007, everything collapsed in 2008.
[46:56.800 --> 47:14.440]  And it made us realize that everything we had trusted, like, you know, the academia, the media, the government, the institutes that were supposed to look after us and people trusted enough to not do anything in order to participate in their society except to vote,
[47:17.280 --> 47:22.900]  that they couldn't trust it, so they had to do something about it.
[47:23.000 --> 47:38.940]  And one of the big demands here in Iceland is that we should be able to call for national referendums, for example, also to dequalify a government that's working against its own nation, like previous governments did.
[47:39.160 --> 47:48.520]  So we had a revolution, a soft revolution, where we basically forced that government out in 2009.
[47:51.600 --> 47:58.320]  And as a result, after collapse, a lot of grassroots movements were formed.
[47:58.500 --> 48:09.100]  And me and some other people were a part of gathering all the different grassroots movements in order to create sort of a coalition of them and to find out what we wanted to do.
[48:09.100 --> 48:11.360]  And we created a political movement.
[48:12.320 --> 48:18.680]  And we got...we did this, like, eight weeks before elections, which were, like, in April 2009.
[48:19.820 --> 48:27.400]  And we didn't have any money, but we used social media a lot and some other ways of getting attention to what we're doing.
[48:27.600 --> 48:30.520]  And we got more than 7% of the vote.
[48:31.320 --> 48:36.440]  And this would have not...this would have been impossible before everything collapsed.
[48:38.000 --> 48:42.720]  And we've been doing sort of experimental politics.
[48:43.040 --> 48:46.960]  We don't work...we don't consider ourselves to be left or right.
[48:46.960 --> 48:53.880]  We just created a checklist of what all of the different grassroots movements felt was important to do.
[48:54.780 --> 48:59.900]  We banned politicians to be part of the movement so they couldn't run.
[48:59.900 --> 49:10.940]  So we just had sort of ordinary people take sort of leadership or leading the different lists for the six constituencies that we have in Iceland.
[49:11.540 --> 49:17.720]  And our aim was to build a bridge between ordinary people and power.
[49:18.340 --> 49:22.460]  And we at least...we got four people into the parliament out of 63.
[49:24.080 --> 49:30.460]  And as a result of this collapse, people realized that, you know, we need more transparency.
[49:30.700 --> 49:34.760]  We need more accountability of sort of the governmental body.
[49:35.380 --> 49:37.920]  We need stronger media and so forth.
[49:37.920 --> 49:49.720]  So that was a breakthrough case here in August 2009 when Viskiliks came into the awareness of Icelanders.
[49:50.240 --> 49:54.620]  So you have to bear in mind there are only like 315,000 people living in Iceland.
[49:55.000 --> 50:00.640]  So it's easy to get things wired or to have everybody know of it.
[50:00.640 --> 50:15.200]  So in 2009, August, a document is found on a Viskiliks server with a loan book of one of the big banks that was sort of vacuum cleaned from inside.
[50:16.620 --> 50:34.200]  And the national, the state TV in Iceland had just prepared a report on it half an hour before they were going to air it to get a gag order or a prior restraint not to publish the story based on this leak.
[50:34.380 --> 50:38.620]  And they had a very clever way of communicating it, didn't they?
[50:38.620 --> 50:40.500]  Yes, that was very sweet.
[50:40.720 --> 50:42.940]  So what they did was they got very upset.
[50:43.100 --> 50:48.620]  This has never happened in our history of journalism, at least not in such a way.
[50:49.060 --> 50:57.880]  So instead of saying nothing, they put a picture of the Viskiliks website and told people to go there.
[50:59.040 --> 51:03.100]  I wish our anchor people had that kind of integrity.
[51:03.100 --> 51:06.640]  It's something that, you know, very inspirational.
[51:07.220 --> 51:08.740]  Maybe they get inspired.
[51:09.020 --> 51:26.140]  I think one thing that is beautiful about how our world is now, with people sort of finding each other that are like-minded in a much easier way and quicker ways through the internet, is you can also plant seeds and inspire people at an entirely different scale than,
[51:26.140 --> 51:28.500]  you know, 10 years ago.
[51:28.660 --> 51:30.740]  Well, I think that's something that you're definitely doing.
[51:30.740 --> 51:35.760]  And I know when we talked earlier, you said that you don't want politics to be your life.
[51:35.840 --> 51:38.400]  You don't want to be doing this for decades.
[51:39.160 --> 51:45.600]  Do you think that's the secret that people basically get involved, do what they want to do and move on to something else?
[51:46.020 --> 51:57.340]  I think it's very important because, you know, and we actually put on our checklist that nobody could stay longer in parliament than eight years, like two terms.
[51:58.180 --> 52:02.380]  And it's incredible freedom to know that, you know, it doesn't matter.
[52:02.380 --> 52:04.260]  I don't care if I don't have this job tomorrow.
[52:04.660 --> 52:06.320]  You know, honestly, I don't care.
[52:06.680 --> 52:15.320]  And that gives me the freedom of always having a lot of sort of enemies, or not necessarily enemies, but, you know, people.
[52:15.320 --> 52:18.900]  I don't care if I upset others by telling the truth.
[52:20.000 --> 52:23.020]  And I don't care where it leads me.
[52:23.200 --> 52:30.680]  At least I can fall asleep at night and have a clean consciousness about, you know, my day's job.
[52:32.360 --> 52:40.600]  But another very important element we tried, and I really encourage others to try this, and this is inspired by the horizontal movement in Argentina.
[52:41.120 --> 52:48.380]  We are also in an IMF program like they went through, and I'm very concerned about that because we know...
[52:48.380 --> 52:57.720]  And actually because of stuff I found on WikiLeaks, and we have to remember that there is much, much more on WikiLeaks than stuff that is directly directed at the United States.
[52:57.720 --> 53:09.360]  You can find a whole treasure trove of all sorts of information that is very informative, and particularly for people who are interested in the larger picture.
[53:09.940 --> 53:14.180]  And real conspiracies, then you can find so much stuff.
[53:14.340 --> 53:25.920]  I found, for example, an incredible document that I've been able to use a lot in my work to raise awareness about, for example, the IMF, and it's called Unconventional Warfare.
[53:26.840 --> 53:29.720]  Actually, it's from the military establishment in the United States.
[53:29.900 --> 53:36.480]  And they talk about economic warfare, and they talk about their weapons to destabilize nations.
[53:36.780 --> 53:38.840]  And guess what one of the weapons is?
[53:39.560 --> 53:40.140]  What's that?
[53:40.320 --> 53:40.540]  The IMF.
[53:40.660 --> 53:41.240]  The IMF.
[53:41.360 --> 53:42.260]  And the World Bank.
[53:43.280 --> 53:45.700]  It's the perfect tool to destabilize nations.
[53:45.920 --> 54:01.220]  Now, before that, if you would read Perkins, you would think maybe, oh, it's a bit of a fairytale-like story that he's telling, but I have found so much stuff that actually proves that what he's saying is entirely based on facts.
[54:01.880 --> 54:10.580]  Now, Ms. Brigitte, I think this movement that you guys are doing in Iceland is fantastic, especially with the work being done with the Modern Media Initiative.
[54:11.480 --> 54:18.740]  Now, do you guys actually have time to handle anything else, or is this actually taking up all your time right now?
[54:20.520 --> 54:23.000]  Yeah, I've always been a bit of a workaholic.
[54:23.240 --> 54:28.060]  So I'm working on a lot of other things.
[54:29.120 --> 54:30.880]  So I don't really have life.
[54:31.600 --> 54:32.720]  Well, this is my life.
[54:33.180 --> 54:38.780]  But another thing that's important about our organization is that we don't have leaders, right?
[54:39.080 --> 54:47.920]  So we work in consensus, and that's how we can delegate different tasks, and that's how we manage to do everything we need to do in the parliament.
[54:47.920 --> 54:50.640]  And all of us are hard workers, I guess.
[54:50.860 --> 54:52.720]  So we're battling all sorts of stuff.
[54:52.960 --> 54:58.160]  We're trying to get the parliament to agree to do a constitutional parliament in Iceland.
[54:58.160 --> 54:59.700]  So we're rewriting our constitution.
[55:00.320 --> 55:10.040]  Now, there are some forces in Iceland, in particular the hardcore right-wingers, that don't want the nation to write it, but the parliament.
[55:10.320 --> 55:15.360]  We want the people represented in the constitutional parliament.
[55:15.360 --> 55:17.000]  Man is to get it through.
[55:17.240 --> 55:33.000]  Just like two weeks ago, the High Court in Iceland ordered that the election for the representatives in the constitutional parliament was invalid because of minor technical details about it.
[55:33.880 --> 55:40.240]  So, I mean, that's the good thing about living today is that you get all the time impossible tasks.
[55:40.240 --> 55:46.860]  And in relation to IMME, the Auslanning Modern Media Initiative, we have just...
[55:46.860 --> 55:50.460]  And we're just working on a press release about it.
[55:50.520 --> 55:56.080]  We have just established the International Modern Media Institute where we will...
[55:56.080 --> 56:12.460]  We actually got some help from another NGO to be able to hire somebody to help us create sort of the frame so we can make sure that we push these legislations fast through Iceland.
[56:13.940 --> 56:20.220]  Because from what I've been seeing in the last year, the world really needs an example.
[56:20.220 --> 56:23.380]  And Iceland is a good place to create good examples.
[56:23.740 --> 56:29.520]  Because we're so few and the red tape is not quite as intense as, you know, in large countries like the United States.
[56:29.720 --> 56:31.220]  It certainly seems that way.
[56:31.380 --> 56:34.920]  And it's such an inspiration to us to be able to speak to somebody like you.
[56:34.920 --> 56:45.440]  We've been speaking to Birgitta Jansdard, poet, writer, artist, editor, publisher, activist, internet pioneer, and member of parliament in Iceland.
[56:46.140 --> 56:51.920]  Caught up in the whole WikiLeaks controversy, having the US government investigating her communications.
[56:52.860 --> 56:56.520]  And Birgitta, I want to thank you so much for joining us here tonight.
[56:57.220 --> 57:01.400]  I'm so happy and I really hope and I really encourage people to support you guys.
[57:02.280 --> 57:04.380]  You are doing incredible service.
[57:05.320 --> 57:08.000]  And I will make sure to tune in more often.
[57:08.260 --> 57:09.720]  That means so much to us.
[57:09.920 --> 57:18.460]  And folks, you can support us, support the radio station, support this communication channel by calling 212-209-2950.
[57:18.680 --> 57:27.080]  Again, what we're offering tonight for a pledge of $100 is the WikiLeaks archive on a thumb drive where you'll get gigs of documents.
[57:27.080 --> 57:32.100]  You'll get videos with all kinds of scandalous US government behavior.
[57:32.400 --> 57:36.420]  You'll get everything that people have been talking about in the media for the past year.
[57:36.940 --> 57:39.100]  For $100, you'll get that on a thumb drive.
[57:39.100 --> 57:40.280]  You can plug it into your computer.
[57:40.440 --> 57:42.860]  Then you'll have everything right there at your disposal.
[57:42.980 --> 57:44.060]  You don't have to go to any website.
[57:44.060 --> 57:47.860]  You don't have to worry about being tapped or being chased or anything like that.
[57:48.000 --> 57:51.100]  It'll just come to you and you can plug it into your computer.
[57:51.100 --> 57:51.200]  All right.
[57:51.200 --> 57:53.060]  212-209-2950.
[57:53.320 --> 57:53.420]  Mike.
[57:53.480 --> 58:02.060]  I want to thank our listeners for the incredible response we've got to this, which has allowed us to spend more time focusing on our conversation with Brigitte.
[58:02.240 --> 58:12.000]  But we have just a few minutes left for you to call at 212-209-2950 and show your support as well and allow us to keep doing what we do.
[58:13.740 --> 58:14.180]  Yes.
[58:14.200 --> 58:16.420]  We're well over $2,500, which is great.
[58:16.720 --> 58:18.340]  And I know there are more people out there.
[58:18.340 --> 58:22.800]  We just want to make sure that we're able to get to everybody that is interested in this.
[58:22.900 --> 58:23.780]  We know a lot of people are.
[58:23.920 --> 58:25.940]  212-209-2950.
[58:26.280 --> 58:30.100]  Get it to at least 2600 before the hour ends.
[58:30.160 --> 58:30.380]  Yeah.
[58:30.500 --> 58:31.800]  That would be kind of cool, wouldn't it?
[58:32.340 --> 58:33.840]  Brigitte, thanks again so much.
[58:33.960 --> 58:38.360]  And hopefully we'll be in touch in the future and we'll hear more about the cool things that you're into.
[58:39.120 --> 58:39.800]  Yeah, you too.
[58:40.120 --> 58:40.460]  All right.
[58:40.920 --> 58:41.640]  You have a great one.
[58:41.760 --> 58:42.140]  Bye-bye.
[58:42.760 --> 58:43.080]  Bye-bye.
[58:43.920 --> 58:45.560]  And it's one o'clock in the morning there.
[58:45.560 --> 58:48.860]  So a special thank you for Brigitte for staying up for us.
[58:49.040 --> 58:50.700]  Again, 212-209-2950.
[58:51.520 --> 58:52.340]  We have to get out of here.
[58:52.380 --> 58:56.940]  But if you want that WikiLeaks archive on a thumb drive, you've got to give a call now.
[58:57.180 --> 58:58.140]  $100 pledge.
[58:58.140 --> 58:59.680]  And you'll get gigs.
[59:00.340 --> 59:04.100]  It'll be an unbelievable amount of information that you will have on your computer.
[59:04.280 --> 59:06.680]  212-209-2950.
[59:06.680 --> 59:08.500]  We will see you next week.
[59:08.700 --> 59:09.200]  Good night.
[59:09.640 --> 59:11.220]  Our Father, which art in heaven.
[59:11.760 --> 59:12.640]  Humble words.
[59:12.900 --> 59:14.160]  We shall fight on the beaches.
[59:14.400 --> 59:15.620]  We shall fight on the hills.
[59:15.820 --> 59:16.980]  We shall never surrender.
[59:18.420 --> 59:18.940]  Thundering.
[59:19.320 --> 59:19.740]  Thundering.
[59:20.020 --> 59:20.540]  Thundering.
[59:21.060 --> 59:21.580]  Thundering.
[59:21.840 --> 59:22.320]  Thundering.
[59:22.320 --> 59:22.820]  Thundering words.
[59:26.140 --> 59:30.580]  The strongest word.
[59:32.800 --> 59:48.280]  The strongest word.
[59:48.540 --> 59:48.700]  Grief.
[59:48.920 --> 59:50.500]  Is still the word, free.
[59:51.040 --> 59:51.680]  Grief.
[59:52.220 --> 59:52.520]  Grief.
[59:56.940 --> 59:58.900]  The word free.
[59:59.300 --> 01:00:04.560]  The strongest word is still the word free.
[01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.380]  Men have lived for words.
[01:00:08.240 --> 01:00:08.680]  Holocaust.
[01:00:09.600 --> 01:00:10.360]  Hysteria.
[01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:13.680]  Men have died for words.
[01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:15.480]  Pointed words.
[01:00:15.820 --> 01:00:17.400]  Cities have fallen for words.
[01:00:18.780 --> 01:00:18.980]  Free.
[01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:20.580]  The right words.
[01:00:21.160 --> 01:00:21.920]  Inflammable.
[01:00:22.240 --> 01:00:23.120]  The right words.
[01:00:23.120 --> 01:00:23.660]  Isla.
[01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:24.560]  Insidious.
[01:00:24.780 --> 01:00:28.100]  The right words, said Lenin, are worth a hundred regiments.
[01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:29.480]  Freedom's waiting.
[01:00:30.780 --> 01:00:31.580]  Infamous.
[01:00:33.060 --> 01:00:34.260]  Scathing words.