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[00:18.760 --> 00:19.740]  Thanks for listening.
[00:20.020 --> 00:21.920]  In San Francisco, I'm Danny Wood.
[00:36.020 --> 00:39.880]  And you are tuned to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:40.100 --> 00:41.500]  It's 1900 hours.
[00:41.640 --> 00:42.600]  Time for Off the Hook.
[01:37.540 --> 01:38.360]  And good evening to everybody.
[01:38.480 --> 01:39.500]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:39.710 --> 01:41.080]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[01:41.240 --> 01:48.080]  By the way, I just want to say, I ran into the guy who sings this song, Don Letts, at the Dynamite concert last week.
[01:48.180 --> 01:50.100]  And he says hi to everybody.
[01:50.150 --> 01:53.660]  It's cool to see people up to all these years.
[01:53.930 --> 01:55.990]  He wasn't offended that you were running into him?
[01:56.120 --> 01:57.210]  You should look where you're going.
[01:57.220 --> 01:57.600]  No, no.
[01:57.820 --> 01:59.020]  It wasn't that kind of a run-in.
[01:59.080 --> 02:01.080]  It was just very social, that kind of thing.
[02:02.000 --> 02:02.770]  Met some interesting people.
[02:02.780 --> 02:03.710]  I'll get into this in just a moment.
[02:03.710 --> 02:06.710]  First, let me introduce the interesting people that are with us right now.
[02:06.860 --> 02:08.270]  And that would be Mike.
[02:08.460 --> 02:08.680]  Hi.
[02:08.940 --> 02:09.340]  Redhacked.
[02:10.300 --> 02:10.560]  Hello.
[02:11.500 --> 02:12.860]  Didn't you think you'd need a microphone?
[02:13.280 --> 02:14.990]  Be a little closer to the microphone.
[02:15.920 --> 02:16.320]  Voltaire.
[02:16.550 --> 02:16.780]  Hi.
[02:16.990 --> 02:17.380]  Dot Red.
[02:17.620 --> 02:17.840]  Hello.
[02:18.020 --> 02:18.280]  Gus.
[02:18.440 --> 02:18.840]  Oh, hi.
[02:19.060 --> 02:20.440]  And Jim in the studio.
[02:20.550 --> 02:20.900]  Hello, hello.
[02:21.210 --> 02:22.580]  Down in Philadelphia, we have Bernie S.
[02:23.080 --> 02:24.160]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:24.380 --> 02:25.930]  And who was it you ran into, Emmanuel?
[02:26.020 --> 02:27.880]  I met Daniel Ellsberg yesterday.
[02:27.880 --> 02:28.990]  That was really cool.
[02:29.150 --> 02:30.500]  Ah, so he was the singer.
[02:30.940 --> 02:32.270]  No, no, he wasn't the singer.
[02:32.270 --> 02:34.210]  Well, I'm sure he could hold a note.
[02:34.360 --> 02:37.000]  But, no, he was giving a lecture at Stony Brook.
[02:37.160 --> 02:38.560]  And I happened to be out there.
[02:38.740 --> 02:40.880]  And it just, it worked out really well.
[02:41.210 --> 02:42.220]  Very riveting speaker.
[02:42.340 --> 02:45.660]  If you ever get a chance to see him, it was more of an interview, actually.
[02:45.800 --> 02:48.760]  There was this journalism professor that was asking him all kinds of questions.
[02:49.080 --> 03:03.140]  I would have just preferred to hear him talk because he was telling all kinds of stories about the Vietnam years and what it was like to suddenly start questioning your orders and to eventually release something on the magnitude of the Pentagon Papers.
[03:03.480 --> 03:06.140]  And, you know, as he said, he was the Bradley Manning of his day.
[03:06.560 --> 03:11.620]  And it's incredible, really, just to hear somebody like that, let alone talk to them.
[03:11.620 --> 03:17.000]  What did he say about how it felt to suddenly realize that you felt like you ought to be disobeying orders?
[03:17.760 --> 03:21.320]  Well, he didn't really get into what went on inside his head so much.
[03:21.420 --> 03:25.640]  But it was more along the lines of a person can make a difference.
[03:25.860 --> 03:41.140]  And if you find yourself in a position to do something that will get others to do something significant as well, such as what's happening in the revolutions going on in places like Libya and Egypt and Tunisia, that's a worthy sacrifice.
[03:41.300 --> 03:48.280]  In fact, he made allusions to Bradley Manning, the alleged leaker of the WikiLeaks documents last year.
[03:49.740 --> 04:00.640]  And there was a quote in those alleged chat logs as well that where Bradley Manning said that he hopes people react, do something that otherwise it has no meaning.
[04:00.780 --> 04:01.840]  Otherwise, it's all in vain.
[04:02.460 --> 04:07.480]  And in effect, he made a real sacrifice, might spend the rest of his life in prison.
[04:08.140 --> 04:10.920]  Simply to get that information out to people.
[04:11.140 --> 04:19.440]  And just the importance of having the information, having it there so that people can read it and interpret it and get the true facts.
[04:20.170 --> 04:37.620]  What Ellsberg said consistently over and over again was how much the American people have been lied to in the Vietnam era as far as what the threat of the Soviets was, what was actually happening in Vietnam and how basically we were fighting for a stalemate.
[04:37.860 --> 04:40.290]  And that was the best we could ever hope for.
[04:40.590 --> 04:53.910]  And how we just never seemed to be able to understand the difference between people who would fight to keep foreigners out of their homeland, comparing that to supporting people who are fighting in a foreign land.
[04:54.140 --> 04:55.600]  We could never seem to under...
[04:55.600 --> 05:04.320]  By we, I mean, the US government could never seem to understand why they would never quit, why they would keep fighting for their land.
[05:04.380 --> 05:07.940]  And that's funny because that's supposedly how we won the American Revolution as well, right?
[05:08.040 --> 05:10.380]  I mean, to some extent, that was what was on our side.
[05:10.780 --> 05:12.140]  That was our self-defense.
[05:12.340 --> 05:13.780]  Well, he didn't get into that at all.
[05:13.860 --> 05:15.680]  But that would be an interesting conversation.
[05:15.680 --> 05:19.280]  But he was just so very personable and very open.
[05:19.540 --> 05:21.300]  I wasn't even planning on saying anything to him.
[05:21.340 --> 05:23.760]  I was actually talking to somebody else up on stage afterwards.
[05:23.920 --> 05:26.700]  And I just found myself standing right next to Daniel Ellsberg.
[05:26.800 --> 05:36.140]  So I said, hey, I have to say hi to him and just commend him for all the work he's done and mention also that we'd like to get him maybe someday as a speaker for one of the H.O.B.
[05:36.220 --> 05:36.580]  conferences.
[05:37.360 --> 05:38.600]  And here's the interesting thing.
[05:38.700 --> 05:40.240]  This is something that kind of surprised me.
[05:40.240 --> 05:47.300]  He said he does not blame Adrian Lemo for what happened the whole thing last year where he turned in Bradley Manning.
[05:47.340 --> 05:57.120]  He said it's impossible for anybody to really know what was going through his head or what he was really facing or what external pressures might have been present at the time.
[05:57.300 --> 05:58.340]  And I just thought that was...
[05:58.340 --> 05:59.540]  It didn't come up in his talk.
[05:59.840 --> 06:07.000]  But I thought that was very revealing that he had thought it through that much and didn't just jump on the bandwagon and say, yeah, you're evil for doing this.
[06:07.000 --> 06:10.700]  Maybe there's more to it than what we've all assumed.
[06:11.920 --> 06:12.700]  Fascinating story.
[06:12.840 --> 06:13.920]  Continues to be fascinating.
[06:14.280 --> 06:16.740]  And people like Daniel Ellsberg, 80 years old.
[06:16.820 --> 06:20.900]  The guy is as sharp as any teenager, I know, I'd say.
[06:21.100 --> 06:21.700]  Probably sharper.
[06:23.200 --> 06:25.200]  Bernie, you've got to see him if you get the chance.
[06:25.540 --> 06:26.920]  I would very much like to.
[06:27.460 --> 06:29.640]  I've been following his case since I was a kid.
[06:30.740 --> 06:34.380]  And there's been just more news on Bradley Manning this week.
[06:34.380 --> 06:37.480]  There's always more news, but tell us what's new this week.
[06:37.720 --> 06:40.300]  Well, actually, it happened last week.
[06:40.500 --> 06:50.720]  But apparently, President Obama, at a fundraising gathering, was confronted by a group of Bradley Manning supporters.
[06:51.020 --> 07:03.620]  I don't recall the name of the group, but they confronted him and sort of raised a ruckus and confronted him and actually engaged President Obama in dialogue about the matter.
[07:03.820 --> 07:08.020]  But I was really disappointed that the president had his facts wrong.
[07:08.740 --> 07:18.640]  He, first of all, the president claimed that, just prejudicially claimed that Bradley Manning was guilty.
[07:18.900 --> 07:21.520]  I heard this on Democracy Now!
[07:21.600 --> 07:21.920]  yesterday.
[07:22.040 --> 07:26.140]  I heard this quote where Obama was saying, he's guilty.
[07:26.200 --> 07:28.280]  He's guilty of doing this, basically.
[07:28.740 --> 07:30.120]  And it was over a cell phone.
[07:30.140 --> 07:33.920]  So I was wondering, was this something that was actually said publicly?
[07:33.920 --> 07:37.920]  Or was it just his own personal opinion, said privately and not meant to be captured?
[07:38.240 --> 07:43.300]  Yeah, this was a brief conversation between someone in a crowd and President Obama.
[07:43.300 --> 07:45.820]  This was not a public speaking engagement.
[07:46.100 --> 07:59.560]  But then the president, and then the person who was engaging Obama about Bradley Manning said, well, isn't this the same thing that the person we were just speaking about?
[08:01.120 --> 08:01.940]  Daniel Osberg.
[08:03.100 --> 08:03.560]  Uh-oh.
[08:05.150 --> 08:06.060]  I think...
[08:06.060 --> 08:06.660]  That's Bernie.
[08:07.080 --> 08:08.200]  Yeah, I think...
[08:08.200 --> 08:10.160]  Maybe he can call us back, but I think the...
[08:10.160 --> 08:11.440]  The authorities stepped in here.
[08:11.440 --> 08:14.120]  That what happened is that the person...
[08:14.120 --> 08:15.780]  Should I just press this button and hope for the best?
[08:16.460 --> 08:17.380]  Yeah, well...
[08:17.380 --> 08:18.020]  Okay, go ahead.
[08:18.650 --> 08:19.520]  Bernie, is that you?
[08:20.680 --> 08:21.060]  Hello.
[08:21.280 --> 08:22.920]  Yeah, I don't know what happened, but...
[08:22.920 --> 08:23.520]  I'm sorry.
[08:23.620 --> 08:24.700]  Don't say that word again, whatever.
[08:25.240 --> 08:31.380]  Yes, I was starting to say Daniel Osberg, but I guess Daniel Osberg, but I think the censors cut me off.
[08:32.360 --> 08:44.100]  As I was saying, the person who was confronting Bradley Manning in a public hallway, apparently, confronting President Obama about Bradley Manning in a public hallway, but that isn't the same thing that it didn't...
[08:44.100 --> 08:51.980]  Isn't paraphrasing here, isn't what Bradley Manning is accused of, isn't that the same thing that Daniel Osberg was accused of?
[08:52.280 --> 09:02.830]  And President Obama, and again, I'm paraphrasing, say no, it's not the same thing at all, because the materials that Daniel Osberg released were classified very differently.
[09:02.830 --> 09:05.580]  That information that was leaked was classified very differently.
[09:05.830 --> 09:13.210]  As it turns out, the information that Daniel Osberg released was categorized by the Pentagon as top secret.
[09:13.210 --> 09:15.570]  That's a categorization of classified information.
[09:15.780 --> 09:19.460]  It's the highest classification from a legal standpoint.
[09:19.830 --> 09:29.180]  The information that Bradley Manning is accused of leaking was classified as just secret and as classified, which are two different lower levels of classification.
[09:29.180 --> 09:52.720]  So, I have a problem, frankly, with President Obama, and it surprised me, since he was a constitutional law professor, for claiming outright, prejudicially, that Bradley Manning was guilty and getting his facts wrong about the level of seriousness of the offense from a standpoint of the classification level of the documents that was allegedly leaked.
[09:52.840 --> 09:56.100]  So, I don't know, Obama goes down a couple of pegs in my book because of this.
[09:56.100 --> 09:57.860]  Yeah, it was pretty surprising.
[09:58.040 --> 10:07.330]  One thing, also, that Ellsberg mentioned last night was that, at the moment, there really is no law against what Bradley Manning allegedly did.
[10:07.450 --> 10:11.330]  What they're trying to do is apply, I believe, the Espionage Act.
[10:11.680 --> 10:16.240]  And the question is, will they be able to succeed in doing that?
[10:16.380 --> 10:20.260]  If they do succeed, then a lot of people will be in potential danger.
[10:20.460 --> 10:21.280]  That's not quite right.
[10:21.280 --> 10:36.220]  Because Bradley Manning was in the military, there are actually some laws that may be used against him, but there are almost certainly no laws that can be used against WikiLeaks or anyone else who received the material, which is what the federal government is trying very hard to do.
[10:36.740 --> 10:40.400]  In fact, I heard about it today, so I don't know when it happened.
[10:40.710 --> 10:53.950]  But just recently, the government has been sending some subpoenas to people in Cambridge, who are presumably friends of Bradley Manning's, that they have to come down to Virginia and testify before a grand jury.
[10:54.640 --> 11:07.040]  And it's a civilian grand jury, so presumably it's not actually about Bradley Manning, but they're still trying to come up with some legal theory under which they can prosecute either Julian Assange or whoever else.
[11:07.160 --> 11:08.440]  And they're failing.
[11:08.620 --> 11:13.020]  They're trying desperately, and they keep trying, and they're inconveniencing more and more people.
[11:13.020 --> 11:16.380]  But it will be interesting to see what, if anything, they ever come up with.
[11:16.640 --> 11:19.680]  Well, we have the subpoena right here, in fact, and this is how it reads.
[11:19.820 --> 11:22.700]  You are commanded to appear and testify before...
[11:23.200 --> 11:24.820]  Right away, that just sets me off.
[11:26.120 --> 11:27.000]  Very bad note.
[11:27.080 --> 11:29.420]  Whenever somebody commands me to do something, no matter what it is...
[11:29.420 --> 11:32.500]  Can I send letters to random people commanding them to do things?
[11:32.660 --> 11:33.280]  My goodness.
[11:33.600 --> 11:38.020]  You are commanded to appear and testify before the United States District Court...
[11:38.600 --> 11:41.100]  I might as well say the Klingon Council, and you're going to talk like that.
[11:41.100 --> 11:51.800]  But at the time, date, and place shown below to testify before the court's grand jury, when you arrive, you must remain at the court until the judge or court officer allows you to leave.
[11:52.060 --> 11:55.600]  And this is set for May 11th at 9.30 a.m.
[11:56.860 --> 12:00.580]  And yeah, there was a story that ran Salon.com.
[12:00.720 --> 12:02.280]  They don't identify who the actual person is.
[12:02.340 --> 12:05.740]  They just say a Cambridge resident, and it's a male Cambridge resident.
[12:05.840 --> 12:07.100]  We have some suspicions, but we don't know for sure.
[12:07.100 --> 12:14.480]  The weird thing is that if you read page two, it says, even though the official legal document says show up at 9.30, actually, you should call us and see what time you should actually call up.
[12:14.620 --> 12:16.200]  Well, that might be a form letter of some sort.
[12:16.240 --> 12:17.260]  But it's really strange.
[12:17.580 --> 12:22.840]  It's clearly a form letter, but it's really strange that there would be a form letter instructing you to ignore the official document.
[12:22.840 --> 12:28.020]  Well, I think it's even stranger if we're going to get, you know, all petty about this letter here.
[12:28.140 --> 12:28.560]  Okay, fine.
[12:28.560 --> 12:30.120]  It was signed by Neil H.
[12:30.260 --> 12:35.180]  McBride, the United States Attorney, but it says underneath that by Tracy McCormick.
[12:35.360 --> 12:36.080]  That's pretty standard.
[12:36.300 --> 12:37.840]  And Andrew Peterson, Assistant United...
[12:37.840 --> 12:38.640]  What does that mean, by?
[12:38.680 --> 12:39.600]  They wrote the words?
[12:39.620 --> 12:41.560]  Yeah, it means they actually did all the work, but they did it.
[12:41.560 --> 12:43.700]  They're like the songwriters, and he's the person who performed it?
[12:44.320 --> 12:45.040]  Even worse.
[12:45.180 --> 12:50.620]  They did all the work, and the guy in charge, they did it under his authority, basically.
[12:50.760 --> 12:52.280]  I would not be good in front of a grand jury.
[12:52.340 --> 12:57.340]  You know, I was supposed to be on a grand jury very soon, somewhere, and I don't know what I'm going to do.
[12:57.340 --> 13:00.720]  They probably have a rubber stamp with the guy's signature that they just put on there.
[13:01.320 --> 13:03.400]  Where are you going to be a grand jury?
[13:03.520 --> 13:06.040]  Well, I was supposed to be on a grand jury somewhere on Long Island.
[13:07.000 --> 13:07.800]  A jury dude?
[13:08.160 --> 13:15.500]  Well, all I know is I got one of those cards in the mail earlier in the year saying, you are summoned to appear for a grand jury, and I didn't show up.
[13:15.600 --> 13:19.480]  And what I did was I called a little touchtone thing and postponed it till May.
[13:20.000 --> 13:22.260]  At least that's what I thought I did, but I haven't heard anything back.
[13:22.560 --> 13:24.320]  And the thing is, you know, I've got to make plans.
[13:24.320 --> 13:27.600]  I've got a life to lead, and I can't really wait for them to tell me when I have to appear.
[13:27.760 --> 13:30.080]  But grand jury, that can last for a month, and that's...
[13:30.680 --> 13:33.560]  It's not the same thing as being inside a courtroom.
[13:33.720 --> 13:39.180]  You get to ask people all kinds of questions, and they have to answer, and, you know, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.
[13:39.280 --> 13:41.520]  I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the whole premise of the grand jury.
[13:41.660 --> 13:47.680]  I don't believe for a second that you're uncomfortable with asking people questions and making them answer, and I think that's the greatest thing in your world.
[13:47.780 --> 13:54.620]  I'm uncomfortable dragging people in front of a bunch of other people and making them say things that maybe they don't want to say, you know?
[13:54.860 --> 13:55.240]  And Emmanuel?
[13:55.400 --> 13:55.600]  Yes.
[13:56.020 --> 14:06.840]  It's also important to note that in a grand jury proceedings, at least federal grand jury proceedings, I assume that happens for New York as well, if you refuse to testify, you go to jail.
[14:07.160 --> 14:07.720]  Yeah, exactly.
[14:07.860 --> 14:11.880]  You don't have an option of saying, I don't want to talk about it, or it's not your business.
[14:13.300 --> 14:19.760]  You go to jail for, like, a long period of time, for, like, months and months, simply for keeping your mouth shut, for doing nothing.
[14:19.940 --> 14:20.840]  I have a problem with that.
[14:21.220 --> 14:21.420]  Yeah.
[14:21.560 --> 14:27.060]  Another interesting thing that I learned from this letter is that you don't have the right to have a lawyer in the room.
[14:27.060 --> 14:30.200]  The lawyer has to wait outside, and you can go consult with the lawyer if you want.
[14:30.260 --> 14:31.680]  You can leave the room to consult with the lawyer.
[14:31.780 --> 14:33.220]  So the lawyer can't come in.
[14:33.300 --> 14:38.320]  All the rules of the Fifth Amendment and all that kind of thing, they're all thrown out the window, basically.
[14:38.320 --> 14:45.100]  Yeah, you have to answer everything, and people who are on the grand jury aren't allowed to tell anybody, ever, what happened on the grand jury.
[14:45.560 --> 14:48.920]  So a lot of things I have real problems with, and I'm not sure I'd be a very good player.
[14:49.100 --> 14:52.420]  I mean, is there any legal recourse if you're subpoenaed for a grand jury?
[14:52.660 --> 15:01.000]  I mean, obviously, if you refuse to testify, there's a law against that, but, you know, can you have, you know, filed some sort of thing saying that you don't want to testify?
[15:01.200 --> 15:02.260]  Well, you're really...
[15:02.260 --> 15:02.640]  I'm curious.
[15:02.760 --> 15:05.380]  ...going down the wrong road if you're going to ask me legal advice about this.
[15:05.380 --> 15:06.760]  I can tell you what I think.
[15:06.960 --> 15:14.380]  I think you should be able to just tell them to take a hike and not participate in this because it doesn't, you know, it doesn't match your values.
[15:14.520 --> 15:18.520]  And whenever you look it up on the internet, they always say, yes, grand juries exist in this country.
[15:18.520 --> 15:19.740]  They've existed for hundreds of years.
[15:19.920 --> 15:22.780]  They never explain why these things are justified.
[15:22.960 --> 15:23.880]  Just they tell you the history.
[15:23.980 --> 15:26.160]  They say, yeah, we've been doing this for a long time, and that's why we do it.
[15:26.640 --> 15:27.440]  It's really silly.
[15:27.440 --> 15:39.600]  The theory is that they act as a check on the government's ability to, you know, bring people to court because it's supposedly normal people who, you know, have to file the charges.
[15:39.600 --> 15:42.300]  We should be bringing the government in and asking them to answer some questions.
[15:42.580 --> 15:44.320]  Yeah, but, yeah, it's not that good a check.
[15:44.320 --> 15:45.340]  It doesn't quite work that way.
[15:45.360 --> 15:47.940]  And it's really a very biased forum.
[15:48.100 --> 15:50.060]  The only one side is allowed to present anything.
[15:50.600 --> 15:51.040]  It's...
[15:51.040 --> 15:51.820]  Exactly, yeah.
[15:52.280 --> 15:53.980]  You're not allowed to offer any defense.
[15:53.980 --> 15:57.080]  You're only allowed to answer questions from the prosecution.
[15:57.400 --> 15:58.080]  That's it.
[15:59.060 --> 16:00.680]  It's really kind of crazy.
[16:01.240 --> 16:06.460]  But interesting, this reminds me of something else, though, that was said yesterday at the Daniel Ellsberg lecture.
[16:07.060 --> 16:11.440]  And that was, there are examples where secrets should be kept.
[16:11.800 --> 16:20.120]  And he used the example of Valerie Plame as somebody whose identity should not have been leaked by the Bush administration.
[16:20.640 --> 16:21.800]  We know who we're talking about.
[16:23.980 --> 16:25.520]  What was her official title?
[16:26.440 --> 16:27.700]  Undercover agent or something?
[16:27.980 --> 16:28.000]  Agent, yeah.
[16:28.120 --> 16:28.280]  Yeah.
[16:28.840 --> 16:33.160]  Leaking actual names of people like this can cost lives.
[16:33.160 --> 16:34.280]  There's no question about that.
[16:34.340 --> 16:38.620]  Yet, this was done by the administration, by somebody in the administration.
[16:39.480 --> 16:40.420]  The vice president?
[16:40.620 --> 16:41.140]  Did he do it?
[16:41.220 --> 16:42.520]  I'm not sure exactly who did it.
[16:42.600 --> 16:43.140]  Somebody did it.
[16:43.140 --> 16:44.760]  Officially, it was his aide.
[16:44.900 --> 16:48.560]  They were angry at her husband or something silly like that.
[16:49.080 --> 16:52.300]  And, yeah, these are examples of things that should not just be given out.
[16:52.360 --> 16:59.100]  And it's far more egregious than anything that Bradley Manning is accused of doing or that WikiLeaks has ever done.
[16:59.720 --> 17:08.860]  So, yeah, you know, this is not a case of somebody saying, yeah, everything should just be hung out and everybody should just see all the facts and all the secrets and let them judge for themselves.
[17:09.010 --> 17:13.400]  No, they're not that naive, the people that defend WikiLeaks and Bradley Manning.
[17:13.400 --> 17:14.540]  Did you see this story?
[17:14.680 --> 17:22.360]  There was a story in the Times this week about how these documents, even though they've been released and anyone can go read them, they're still officially classified.
[17:22.750 --> 17:25.640]  So people who work for the government aren't allowed to read them.
[17:25.820 --> 17:35.230]  And this has really wild effects because there are people who are applying for asylum and they attach a WikiLeaks leaked cable that says, hey, look, if I go back to my country, I'll be tortured.
[17:35.530 --> 17:36.030]  Even the U.S.
[17:36.080 --> 17:36.900]  government knows it.
[17:37.120 --> 17:39.680]  And then they send this document to the U.S.
[17:39.750 --> 17:40.540]  government and the U.S.
[17:40.820 --> 17:48.080]  government has to lock it in a safe and pretend that, you know, not let it out because it's a secret document, even though it was just, you know, downloaded from the Internet.
[17:48.340 --> 17:48.670]  Wow.
[17:49.410 --> 17:56.820]  Well, anyway, yeah, a lot of good fun, a lot of interesting things that are taking place if you just go out and look for them.
[17:57.100 --> 18:00.970]  We'll find out more about that subpoena and see what that's all about.
[18:01.170 --> 18:03.250]  Wow, it's kind of scary.
[18:03.250 --> 18:03.990]  It really is.
[18:05.470 --> 18:06.860]  What else is going on out there?
[18:06.860 --> 18:10.620]  We have this interesting piece someone sent us.
[18:10.970 --> 18:17.390]  Actually, it's more like an advertisement for a company known as Celebrite.
[18:17.950 --> 18:20.990]  Mobile forensics and data transfer solutions.
[18:21.100 --> 18:21.730]  Have you seen this, Bernie?
[18:22.450 --> 18:23.300]  I've heard of it.
[18:23.360 --> 18:24.290]  Yeah, I've been reading about this.
[18:24.430 --> 18:28.360]  Recover hidden and deleted data from mobile phones and GPS devices.
[18:28.530 --> 18:36.150]  The Celebrite UFED Physical Pro is a high-end, all-in-one solution for logical and physical extraction.
[18:36.860 --> 18:38.190]  Doesn't that sound evil?
[18:38.430 --> 18:51.560]  The UFED Physical Pro expands your current device capabilities to extract deleted mobile device data, user passwords, file system dumps, and physical extraction from GPS devices.
[18:51.930 --> 18:57.690]  With expanded coverage, it now includes more than 3,000 phones and a growing list of GPS devices.
[18:57.690 --> 19:03.360]  UFED Physical Pro provides the most complete mobile forensic solution available on the market.
[19:04.010 --> 19:06.300]  They won't tell you the price.
[19:06.300 --> 19:09.540]  You have to email them, and they'll give you information like that.
[19:09.620 --> 19:11.530]  But this is what the authorities are using.
[19:11.650 --> 19:15.190]  It's the kind of toys that they're playing with and the kind of information that they have access to.
[19:15.190 --> 19:18.100]  This is the device that the Michigan State Police own.
[19:18.230 --> 19:18.790]  I believe so.
[19:18.910 --> 19:20.010]  I think we talked about last week.
[19:20.100 --> 19:21.340]  Yeah, I believe that's what it is.
[19:21.580 --> 19:23.410]  It's designed and made by our friends in Israel.
[19:23.890 --> 19:24.290]  Uh-huh.
[19:24.470 --> 19:29.600]  Yeah, I don't know why that always is, but it does seem to come from there more often than these kinds of devices.
[19:29.600 --> 19:48.040]  Um, the, uh, UFED Physical Pro provides access to data inaccessible by logical methods, uh, such as the phone user lock code, uh, deleted data, including deleted call history, text messages, images, phone book entries, and videos, access to internal application data,
[19:48.320 --> 19:55.750]  phone internal data, including, uh, IMSI history, past SIM cards used, and past user lock code history.
[19:56.160 --> 20:00.360]  So, yeah, you know, it's all there, all there for the taking, if, uh, you have the right devices.
[20:00.650 --> 20:06.970]  And these guys, they have the budget for it, so they have all kinds of, uh, of, uh, abilities to pry into your past and present.
[20:07.190 --> 20:16.450]  And the, the interesting thing we talked about last week, uh, Apple devices, iPhones, maintain a log, uh, forever, basically, of everywhere you've been.
[20:16.450 --> 20:21.710]  Uh, and it came out this week, uh, that Android has a log as well.
[20:21.840 --> 20:27.030]  It doesn't last quite as long, but it still could be used to prove that you're, uh, that you've been somewhere.
[20:27.150 --> 20:34.080]  And then, so these are the data that's stored on your phone that, uh, you can get a copy of if you have, if you have the phone.
[20:34.080 --> 20:41.820]  Um, and then there's also the data that's transmitted back to the phone companies, uh, to Apple and to, uh, Google, which makes Android.
[20:42.740 --> 20:47.470]  And they say that it's anonymized, but of course, there's all kinds of ways of, uh, de-anonymizing it.
[20:47.750 --> 20:50.770]  So these, these devices, uh, are, are scary.
[20:50.950 --> 20:52.390]  There's a lot of evil out there.
[20:52.580 --> 21:03.860]  And, um, adding to that, now Iran is accusing the United States and Israel of, uh, being behind the computer worm known as Stuxnet that infiltrated Iran's nuclear program.
[21:03.860 --> 21:07.970]  That's according to the state news agency, IRNA, I-R-N-A.
[21:08.300 --> 21:14.730]  They said that on Saturday, uh, investigations and studies show that the source of Stuxnet originates from America and Israel.
[21:15.040 --> 21:26.390]  The commander of the Iranian civil defense organization said, um, now this is the first Iranian official to aim the accusation at Tehran's two arch foes over the Stuxnet, Stuxnet virus.
[21:26.600 --> 21:31.710]  Uh, German computer experts and some Western media reports had originally pointed the finger at the U.S.
[21:31.770 --> 21:42.840]  and Israel, uh, Stuxnet was publicly identified in June before it reportedly mutated and wreaked havoc on, uh, computerized industrial equipment in Iran over the following months.
[21:42.990 --> 21:50.690]  This was a hostile act, they say, against us that could have brought major human and material damages had it not been encountered promptly.
[21:51.360 --> 22:05.410]  Um, it's interesting because, um, you know, depending on who you believe, Stuxnet could have been, um, it could have been propagated by virtually anybody and it's, it reminds me of the, um, the denial of service attacks where you, uh, sometimes accuse a government of being behind it,
[22:05.690 --> 22:08.340]  sometimes you accuse a group or an individual of being behind it.
[22:08.410 --> 22:11.710]  It's, uh, it, you just have to, um, really weigh who to believe.
[22:11.890 --> 22:15.890]  Well, I think the difference with Stuxnet is that the target is pretty specific, right?
[22:15.890 --> 22:27.720]  I mean, you were basically, it was a virus that was, you know, to, to go around and, and, and, and replicate until it found itself connected to a specific kind of Siemens piece of hardware and then send codes to it.
[22:27.840 --> 22:28.950]  But it was not so specific.
[22:29.150 --> 22:36.690]  I mean, the interesting thing for me is this morning I found an article that was saying, um, people in the United States were unprepared for Stuxnet and things like that.
[22:36.760 --> 22:40.460]  So I thought that was sort of ironic considering, you know, if, if, if the U.S.
[22:40.620 --> 22:43.060]  was involved, were we not prepared over here for it?
[22:43.120 --> 22:46.120]  So it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't specific enough just to go for computers.
[22:46.280 --> 22:47.340]  It was going for other ones as well.
[22:48.000 --> 22:48.320]  Sure.
[22:48.500 --> 22:53.360]  I mean, it, but it was, it was targeted to that specific kind of hardware, which, you know, it was used in these nuclear facilities.
[22:53.580 --> 23:01.580]  So, and, and, and the fact that it was, you know, released at least within Iran or, or, or somehow localized there seems like the target was pretty specific.
[23:01.860 --> 23:12.150]  Well, uh, if it did have an effect in the United States, that could just, uh, go towards the argument that maybe people who just were against nuclear technology in general put that out, uh, which there are a lot of people like that in the United States.
[23:12.260 --> 23:23.060]  But just going back to what Emmanuel said, anyone could put this kind of thing out, you know, to, to accuse a government, you know, is not, not, not necessarily wrong, but what's your evidence?
[23:23.260 --> 23:30.800]  Well, if you have evidence, I'm assuming anyone could put it out if they had intimate knowledge of the hardware in question, which is not, well, people do have intimate knowledge.
[23:30.800 --> 23:37.520]  People who design these things have intimate knowledge, not just, um, governments having intimate knowledge, but the people who design these things work for the nuclear agencies.
[23:37.740 --> 23:42.540]  Sometimes they do, sometimes, sometimes they stop working for them and they, They do their own personal things.
[23:42.840 --> 23:43.800]  Siemens is what?
[23:44.390 --> 23:44.780]  Swedish?
[23:45.240 --> 23:47.910]  It's German, but, you know, multinational.
[23:48.360 --> 23:58.390]  Yeah, I think this story is probably the worst covered out of all for the year, like, just because the source that it comes from doesn't seem to be that much reliable.
[23:58.910 --> 23:59.950]  What, the Iranian news agency?
[24:00.060 --> 24:14.950]  No, the evidence about, like, why it seems to be targeted and it wasn't that reliable, it turned out it was just, like, some Bible code thing where they're like, oh, there's a reference to a Bible passage or something, and it was, like, really, I forget the details,
[24:15.040 --> 24:16.300]  but it wasn't even that.
[24:16.300 --> 24:18.740]  Because it's a reference to a Bible passage in the code?
[24:18.860 --> 24:23.860]  Yeah, and they use that to assume that it's from Israel, and since then people are just piling on it.
[24:23.910 --> 24:25.300]  Because they always quote the Bible in Israel?
[24:25.480 --> 24:29.500]  No, it just goes to show how little evidence there is and how people...
[24:29.500 --> 24:32.720]  Well, you know, lots of times you don't know the source.
[24:32.860 --> 24:40.060]  I assume there's been a little bit of research here as to what the source of this might be, but I'm sure people have all different theories as to who might be responsible.
[24:40.190 --> 24:49.500]  I mean, I could be wrong, but I kind of feel as if, from what I've seen, that they were just sort of fishing for someone to be responsible, and this story just kind of took off.
[24:49.580 --> 25:01.320]  I mean, if there was, you know, some more reliable evidence, or at least semi-reliable, just something, but instead all we hear are theories, people saying, well, this kind of makes sense, ignoring the fact that maybe it affected other nuclear power plants in other countries.
[25:03.810 --> 25:20.520]  And, you know, this whole thing about the source, that alone is a complete misnomer, because someone in a South Asian country could have come up with it, if someone with the experience would say over there, which I don't know, but then simply used a proxy server to have it come out in the United States,
[25:20.520 --> 25:23.100]  or someone in Germany, since, you know, they said it was a German company.
[25:23.170 --> 25:23.560]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[25:23.560 --> 25:39.930]  I just want to point out that a recently retired, high-ranking Israeli government official admitted in a public forum recently, or took credit for Israel having had a hand in working on the Stuxnet virus with U.S.
[25:42.040 --> 25:42.520]  partners.
[25:43.360 --> 25:53.120]  Now, maybe he was lying, but, you know, Israel probably would be one of the countries, along with the U.S., who would have the most motive for that.
[25:53.120 --> 26:00.720]  What's interesting about this virus is it was designed not only to attack the particular Siemens industrial controllers that ran Iran's centrifuges.
[26:00.780 --> 26:08.430]  It was designed, you know, to make them spin out of control really fast so they would just destroy themselves, but only one every few centrifuges.
[26:08.580 --> 26:11.150]  It wasn't like every single one.
[26:11.260 --> 26:24.910]  It was just very, very painful, just sort of attack every once in a while to really throw investigators off the trail as to what was causing these centrifuges to spin out of control and destroy themselves.
[26:25.150 --> 26:26.430]  So I thought that was kind of clever.
[26:27.450 --> 26:27.930]  Okay.
[26:27.930 --> 26:31.360]  I'm sure whoever is behind it will be pleased that it's kind of clever.
[26:31.600 --> 26:39.690]  But, yeah, interesting events going on in the world involving viruses and worms and denial of service and all kinds of other things.
[26:40.790 --> 26:43.410]  We have a couple of letters that we'd like to read from our listeners.
[26:43.540 --> 26:44.280]  We always like to hear from you.
[26:44.480 --> 26:46.430]  O-T-H at 2600.com.
[26:46.600 --> 26:47.820]  O-T-H standing for off the hook.
[26:48.710 --> 26:54.430]  Here's a letter from someone who signs their name Publican from Toledo, Ohio.
[26:55.080 --> 26:57.540]  I know the... and this is in reference...
[26:57.540 --> 27:07.860]  Remember the story we covered a couple of weeks ago about the guy who sent an email to Connest, the publishers of various magazines, simply...
[27:08.480 --> 27:10.670]  I think it was a bill or something like that.
[27:10.740 --> 27:16.800]  And they simply handed over all their information and sent a huge check for a couple of million dollars to his bank.
[27:16.950 --> 27:20.000]  It had some great name like Authorization to Pay or something.
[27:20.480 --> 27:23.910]  It was basically he sent an authorization to pay and they paid.
[27:24.170 --> 27:28.650]  And I was simply asking the question, so where exactly was the crime here?
[27:28.760 --> 27:32.210]  I mean, if you could just ask somebody to pay you even if they don't owe you anything, is that a crime?
[27:32.720 --> 27:33.670]  Okay, here's the letter.
[27:33.800 --> 27:41.540]  I know the publishing company for Wired was lazy-slash-stupid for paying the bill from the guy who sent the fax request, but please, the guy was trying to steal the money.
[27:41.650 --> 27:43.840]  He had no intention of printing anything for anyone.
[27:44.280 --> 27:45.150]  Stealing is wrong.
[27:45.150 --> 27:47.520]  It's a crime no matter who does it or who the victim is.
[27:47.650 --> 27:50.500]  And it's the responsibility of the state to prosecute these people.
[27:50.950 --> 27:53.720]  Great show, but don't confuse being liberal with anything goes.
[27:53.980 --> 27:56.760]  You know, it was good up until that last line there.
[27:56.820 --> 27:58.100]  What does this have to do with being liberal?
[27:58.100 --> 28:05.960]  It has to do with questioning whether or not something is actually a crime or where that crime particularly takes place.
[28:06.190 --> 28:08.320]  I'd like to actually show you something.
[28:08.410 --> 28:09.780]  This is a letter that I got.
[28:09.960 --> 28:14.760]  This is a letter that I always get, in fact, from a company known as Domain Registry of America.
[28:14.820 --> 28:15.600]  You ever hear of these guys?
[28:16.950 --> 28:17.980]  I don't know who they are.
[28:18.150 --> 28:19.560]  I get a few of those every year.
[28:19.600 --> 28:20.720]  Yeah, I don't know who these people are.
[28:20.800 --> 28:22.320]  But basically, this is how it reads.
[28:23.590 --> 28:24.950]  It's a paper mail.
[28:25.080 --> 28:26.540]  It comes in the mail, so I know it's real.
[28:28.100 --> 28:33.740]  Domain Name Holders, we are sending you this notification of the Domain Name Registration that is due to expire in the next few months.
[28:34.120 --> 28:38.100]  When you switch today to the Domain Registry of America, you can take advantage of our best savings.
[28:38.210 --> 28:42.450]  Your registration to, and I won't say the name of the site, will expire on September 28th.
[28:42.580 --> 28:43.080]  Act today.
[28:43.240 --> 28:43.860]  And it's a bill.
[28:44.000 --> 28:48.480]  It's a bill for renewing a domain name that I happen to own.
[28:48.930 --> 28:59.560]  Now, unless I read that like I just did, and you might have picked up on the line when you switch today to the Domain Registry of America, you might realize at that point, I don't actually owe these people anything.
[28:59.600 --> 29:01.220]  But if you look at this, this is a bill.
[29:01.390 --> 29:02.210]  It looks like a bill.
[29:02.280 --> 29:03.390]  And I've been getting this for years.
[29:03.520 --> 29:04.740]  I've been getting it from many different people.
[29:04.910 --> 29:09.000]  You get the yellow page listings from various phone books that don't actually come out ever.
[29:10.020 --> 29:12.060]  And people fall for this all the time.
[29:12.170 --> 29:13.520]  It's the same basic thing.
[29:13.520 --> 29:22.190]  Yeah, I mean, essentially what this company is doing is they're looking at public DNS records and seeing what's close to expiring and then mailing letters like this to them.
[29:22.280 --> 29:26.690]  And usually the prices that they offer for the domains or to renew.
[29:26.860 --> 29:28.580]  I mean, you know, it's a registrar.
[29:28.720 --> 29:29.500]  It's a registrar.
[29:29.670 --> 29:32.060]  So, you know, they're basically asking you to transfer to their service.
[29:32.210 --> 29:35.080]  But generally, their pricing is not good compared to other ones.
[29:35.080 --> 29:35.720]  But here's the thing.
[29:35.910 --> 29:38.560]  It's not simply an ad saying transfer to our service.
[29:38.650 --> 29:39.620]  We provide better servers.
[29:39.760 --> 29:41.500]  It's specific to your domain.
[29:41.500 --> 29:47.210]  So you think that they know what they're talking about because they're billing you for something that you do own and there's an actual bill here.
[29:47.340 --> 29:49.450]  It did say in the letter to transfer to them.
[29:49.520 --> 29:49.740]  Right.
[29:49.820 --> 29:53.930]  But do you read every single word of every letter you get from every company?
[29:54.120 --> 29:54.800]  A lot of people don't.
[29:54.930 --> 29:56.300]  Look at the size.
[29:56.580 --> 29:57.720]  I don't read every bill.
[29:57.820 --> 29:58.480]  I don't read what it says.
[29:58.520 --> 30:01.540]  You read your Con Ed bill like every word on it?
[30:01.580 --> 30:01.840]  Well, no.
[30:02.100 --> 30:05.710]  But that's a company that I know that I'm sending money to every month.
[30:05.740 --> 30:07.390]  This is microscopic print on the back.
[30:07.500 --> 30:08.040]  I mean...
[30:08.040 --> 30:08.580]  It's very small.
[30:08.580 --> 30:10.190]  You need a microscope literally to read this.
[30:10.190 --> 30:12.890]  I don't know what it says in there, but you're probably signing away all kinds of...
[30:12.890 --> 30:14.120]  It's probably saying that you're transferring...
[30:14.120 --> 30:22.100]  But my point is this, I think, is the same basic mentality of trying to get somebody to pay for something that they normally wouldn't do.
[30:22.790 --> 30:29.580]  Well, first off, you know, what would solve this problem is if you just simply registered your domain for 50 years, then you'd be all set and good.
[30:30.370 --> 30:33.340]  But otherwise, as far as that letter goes, you might not...
[30:33.340 --> 30:36.690]  You might be able to argue that that's legal because they just simply are wording it in a confusing way.
[30:36.980 --> 30:45.260]  But if they're just flat out saying you are ready to pay us money, that might fit under maybe certain laws that are put in place against conning people.
[30:45.320 --> 30:46.980]  I think it's basically let the buyer beware.
[30:47.190 --> 30:48.410]  I think that's what it is.
[30:48.410 --> 30:54.600]  The argument you're making, Emanuel, is that people who send out this sort of, like, almost fraudulent junk mail should be made to stop.
[30:54.820 --> 30:55.340]  I'm all for it.
[30:55.540 --> 30:56.480]  Yeah, I don't know.
[30:56.620 --> 31:10.840]  I think it's good for people to know what's going on, to pay attention, but at least let's apply the law equally to some poor guy who sent a letter to a publishing, a huge publishing company to see if something might work, and then all of a sudden there's $2 million in his bank account,
[31:10.910 --> 31:12.040]  which, by the way, he didn't touch.
[31:12.810 --> 31:22.890]  You know, that might be a little bit worth considering, that maybe it wasn't quite as organized as what these guys are doing every single day to, who knows how many people?
[31:22.890 --> 31:23.120]  Walter.
[31:23.170 --> 31:24.320]  Wasn't it the case in the 80s?
[31:24.320 --> 31:28.360]  There was a phone company called, they called themselves the phone company, and they'd call you and try it.
[31:28.360 --> 31:30.100]  Yeah, Bernie, I think you know something about this, right?
[31:30.100 --> 31:34.690]  When people would switch, if they didn't select a long-distance company, do you know anything about that?
[31:34.690 --> 31:45.220]  I remember back in the day, there was a company that said, they called themselves, I don't care, or I don't want to talk to you, or something.
[31:45.430 --> 31:59.580]  No, it was, yeah, I don't know, or basically, if you were asked what phone company you wanted to select, and you said, I don't know, it doesn't matter, there actually was a company with that, this might be an old wives' tale, it just sounds so bizarre and crazy,
[31:59.650 --> 32:01.840]  but there definitely was one called the phone company at some point.
[32:01.840 --> 32:13.100]  And so, you know, people would, so-called slammers, would call you at home and say, hey, what phone company would you like to use?
[32:13.100 --> 32:27.040]  And then people would answer with, like, I don't want to talk about it, or whatever, and it would have formed, allegedly have companies formed by names of sort of pat answers by people who didn't really know or care to answer the question, and that would be enough for them to switch,
[32:27.240 --> 32:36.060]  for their caller to legally switch the target to this third-party long-distance company, which of course had much higher rates.
[32:36.210 --> 32:39.260]  It was just, you know, it smelled like a scam, and...
[32:39.680 --> 32:45.390]  It brings back such good memory, and we're going to go take another trip down memory lane in just a moment with old phone companies.
[32:45.450 --> 32:52.060]  That reminds me of another old kind of fraud, where back in the day, the only registrar you could get a domain from was internic.net.
[32:52.620 --> 32:52.780]  Oh, yes.
[32:52.780 --> 33:00.910]  They basically ran everything, and there was a website, internic.com, which was a service that would register your domain for you for 10 times the price.
[33:01.220 --> 33:05.170]  So essentially what they did is you filled out the form, and then they just forwarded it to internic and pocketed the difference.
[33:05.240 --> 33:07.690]  Why didn't the internic take out internic.com?
[33:07.740 --> 33:09.800]  I forgot to run the thing.
[33:10.080 --> 33:11.390]  They should be able to do it very easily.
[33:11.410 --> 33:14.760]  There was, of course, also whitehouse.com, which was a porn site for so many years.
[33:15.060 --> 33:15.340]  Wait, it was?
[33:15.520 --> 33:15.930]  Oh, yeah.
[33:20.580 --> 33:28.820]  Last I checked, I think the guy maybe still owns the domain, but it's just one of those sort of like vague, bloggy-looking SEO, sort of searchy kind of nonsense things.
[33:28.960 --> 33:29.980]  With the smiling people.
[33:30.210 --> 33:31.740]  With the smiling people and the horrible fonts.
[33:32.480 --> 33:39.460]  But yeah, I mean, it was for many years, and there were some legal challenges to his owning that and having it that way, and I think he survived most of them, to be honest.
[33:40.980 --> 33:41.600]  So, yeah.
[33:41.840 --> 33:48.800]  Well, speaking of pornography, there's a particular company that's been very aggressive in grabbing phone numbers.
[33:48.800 --> 33:54.500]  In fact, if you call 1-800-CHICAGO, you don't reach the tourism hotline for the Windy City.
[33:55.080 --> 33:59.740]  You'll hear a woman offering one-on-one talk with a nasty girl for $2.99 a minute.
[34:00.280 --> 34:05.720]  The same thing happens if you punch in the initial digits of 1-800-METALLICA?
[34:06.040 --> 34:25.460]  1-800-CADILLAC, 1-800-MINOLTA, 1-800-CAMERAS, 1-800-WARSHIP, 1-800-WHIRL-POOL, all those numbers contain messages redirecting callers to erotic chat lines operated by National A1 Advertising, a company that shares an office building with PrimeTel.
[34:26.140 --> 34:31.660]  They have common ownership and list many of the same people as executives or business contacts.
[34:31.960 --> 34:33.840]  And, Bernie, I think they might be in Philadelphia, actually.
[34:34.140 --> 34:35.890]  Yes, I've heard PrimeTel is in Philadelphia.
[34:35.890 --> 34:41.060]  They've registered something like one-fourth of all toll-free numbers.
[34:41.060 --> 34:46.500]  It sounds like an insanely high number of toll-free numbers, but that's what I read on the news media.
[34:46.500 --> 34:48.960]  Does this... I mean, it must work, because they're still doing it.
[34:49.060 --> 34:51.820]  But people are really... they're looking for the Chicago tourism hotline.
[34:51.980 --> 34:53.450]  They dial 1-800-DUDE, whatever.
[34:54.300 --> 34:59.220]  And instead, someone offers to sell them sex chat, and they're like, oh, yeah, sure, I guess I'll have that instead.
[34:59.790 --> 35:01.160]  Yeah, I don't quite understand that.
[35:01.200 --> 35:08.540]  Well, I mean, you might go to a website that sold cars last week, and they forgot to renew it, and now it's a porn site.
[35:08.640 --> 35:09.600]  So the same logic.
[35:09.810 --> 35:14.180]  I mean, I guess maybe noted for future reference, maybe people will do.
[35:14.180 --> 35:16.640]  But, yeah, 1-800-CHICAGO, that's interesting.
[35:16.660 --> 35:22.720]  I imagine it was the same type of a thing as 1-800-NEW-YORK, which is how you call 311 when you're not in New York City.
[35:22.810 --> 35:23.890]  It's 212-NEW-YORK.
[35:24.220 --> 35:24.790]  Oh, is it?
[35:24.850 --> 35:25.460]  It's not 1-800.
[35:25.740 --> 35:27.200]  I don't think they have an 800 number.
[35:27.310 --> 35:28.060]  212-NEW-YORK.
[35:28.680 --> 35:29.830]  What's 1-800-NEW-YORK?
[35:29.950 --> 35:30.740]  They're probably the same people.
[35:30.770 --> 35:31.160]  I don't know.
[35:31.830 --> 35:32.580]  I want to try.
[35:32.680 --> 35:33.000]  Hold on.
[35:33.890 --> 35:35.770]  I want to try and see what's out there.
[35:43.840 --> 35:46.480]  Thank you for calling 1-800-NEW-YORK.
[35:46.600 --> 35:52.360]  We are pleased to provide you with outstanding accommodations and travel services for New York City.
[35:52.840 --> 35:57.200]  Please listen to the following menu of options to make your visit to New York City.
[35:57.420 --> 35:59.160]  To speak to a nasty girl, press 1.
[35:59.380 --> 36:03.280]  Now, that seems to be on the level, I guess.
[36:03.840 --> 36:06.640]  But 1-800-CHICAGO will not get you that level of service, apparently.
[36:06.800 --> 36:09.420]  Yeah, we don't know if their level of service is actually any good.
[36:09.560 --> 36:10.160]  It could be a front.
[36:10.360 --> 36:11.280]  They could still rip you off.
[36:11.420 --> 36:12.440]  Well, that's possible.
[36:12.520 --> 36:14.340]  It could still be a front for something nasty.
[36:14.500 --> 36:18.520]  I mean, hotel rooms in New York are generally a rip-off anyway, so these people could make it even more so.
[36:18.520 --> 36:26.260]  So while we're on the subject of domains and registering sites and things like that, I have another beef to air here with a company called Dotster.
[36:26.400 --> 36:28.040]  You ever deal with a company called Dotster?
[36:28.820 --> 36:29.180]  They're...
[36:29.180 --> 36:29.360]  Okay.
[36:29.660 --> 36:30.560]  I mean, I've heard of them.
[36:30.560 --> 36:33.380]  It's another place where you can register domain names.
[36:33.380 --> 36:35.680]  And this is just off their website.
[36:35.860 --> 36:39.300]  What are the advantages of setting my domains to auto-renew?
[36:39.660 --> 36:48.780]  And, you know, I've set some domains to auto-renew because it's a pain to have something expire and you forget about it and you've lost a domain or it's out of service for a period of time.
[36:48.780 --> 36:52.920]  If you auto-renew it, it simply references your credit card and applies it.
[36:53.260 --> 36:53.520]  Great.
[36:53.940 --> 36:57.100]  Setting your domains to auto-renew comes with many advantages, they say.
[36:57.160 --> 37:02.480]  The biggest advantage being that you can avoid the hassle of manually renewing your domains every time they are set to expire.
[37:02.660 --> 37:02.800]  Okay.
[37:02.900 --> 37:04.840]  That's very easy to figure that out.
[37:04.940 --> 37:12.760]  But when your domains are set to auto-renew, we will attempt to bill your credit card of record 20 days prior to the domain's expiration.
[37:13.380 --> 37:13.700]  Yeah.
[37:13.760 --> 37:15.760]  Not when it expires, 20 days before it expires.
[37:15.940 --> 37:21.320]  This process ensures there is no lapse in service and your intellectual property is retained.
[37:21.740 --> 37:25.500]  If the first attempt to bill your card fails, we will attempt to charge the card again in five days.
[37:26.140 --> 37:31.700]  Now, another advantage of setting your domains to auto-renew is you will avoid receiving weekly reminders to renew your domains.
[37:31.980 --> 37:36.880]  Domains that are not set to auto-renew receive weekly renewal notices starting 60 days prior.
[37:37.220 --> 37:45.440]  Domains set to auto-renew will only receive a confirmation of the renewal or in the event of a failed auto-renew, an email advising of the failed auto-renew.
[37:45.740 --> 37:52.840]  The thing that bothers me about this, I received the email saying, oh, we successfully renewed your domains 20 days before it expired.
[37:53.040 --> 37:56.280]  There's no option to say, wait a minute, I don't want those domains anymore.
[37:56.280 --> 37:57.560]  I don't want them to auto-renew.
[37:58.020 --> 38:01.320]  There was no warning saying, we're about to do this.
[38:01.760 --> 38:06.900]  They're supposedly saving emails by not telling you until after they actually do it.
[38:07.020 --> 38:12.280]  And it's just, I find that I kind of got roped into this and didn't really have enough of an opportunity to get it.
[38:12.300 --> 38:13.580]  I mean, it's already auto-renewed.
[38:13.620 --> 38:14.580]  I can't undo it.
[38:15.700 --> 38:20.260]  So maybe you should perform an audit and see which domains you don't want to auto-renew anymore.
[38:20.260 --> 38:20.320]  Oh, I've done that.
[38:20.380 --> 38:21.140]  I've done that.
[38:21.140 --> 38:25.060]  But I would have performed that audit beforehand had I gotten some kind of a note.
[38:25.140 --> 38:28.760]  I just think it's on the company to tell you when they're about to charge you for something.
[38:28.840 --> 38:29.740]  Other companies do that.
[38:29.900 --> 38:35.380]  In fact, every company I know that I have auto-payment with tells me in advance, we're going to charge you on this date.
[38:35.960 --> 38:39.100]  So I think Dotsda really could take a note there.
[38:40.260 --> 38:40.800]  All right.
[38:41.120 --> 38:46.960]  David, who was actually the person who emailed us a bunch of phone numbers last week, has sent us some more phone numbers.
[38:46.960 --> 38:51.620]  And we're going to try and resurrect some ghosts from the past.
[38:51.980 --> 38:58.660]  A lot of people seem very fascinated by the fact that we can make contact with companies that no longer exist.
[38:59.640 --> 39:01.120]  Let's try this one.
[39:01.340 --> 39:02.000]  This is local.
[39:02.240 --> 39:03.340]  I have to dial 212, right?
[39:03.620 --> 39:03.900]  All right.
[39:04.220 --> 39:04.960]  Here we go.
[39:09.140 --> 39:10.040]  Listen carefully.
[39:10.900 --> 39:14.000]  The New York Telephone Customer Response Center is closed.
[39:14.000 --> 39:16.640]  We are open Monday to Friday from 9 a.m.
[39:16.700 --> 39:17.500]  to 5 p.m.
[39:17.560 --> 39:18.320]  except holidays.
[39:18.320 --> 39:20.500]  Thank you for calling New York Telephone.
[39:21.340 --> 39:24.160]  The New York Telephone Customer Response Center is closed.
[39:24.200 --> 39:26.160]  They've been closed now for, what, about 20 years?
[39:26.880 --> 39:28.920]  What happens if you call between 9 and 5?
[39:29.040 --> 39:30.720]  Thank you for calling New York Telephone.
[39:31.340 --> 39:33.460]  I think you always will get this message.
[39:33.740 --> 39:35.280]  I think they just left the message there.
[39:36.620 --> 39:37.420]  Here's another one.
[39:37.700 --> 39:42.580]  This is not so much a phone company as an old message.
[39:55.270 --> 39:56.110]  We're sorry.
[39:56.550 --> 40:00.610]  You have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service.
[40:01.090 --> 40:06.610]  If you feel you have reached this recording in error, please check the number and try your call again.
[40:08.370 --> 40:09.150]  Actually, you know what?
[40:09.150 --> 40:11.090]  I think I'm calling the numbers from last week.
[40:11.290 --> 40:11.750]  Yes.
[40:12.010 --> 40:12.810]  I'm sorry.
[40:13.530 --> 40:16.590]  I'm looking at the old email and not the new email.
[40:16.810 --> 40:17.230]  All right.
[40:17.310 --> 40:17.990]  My mistake.
[40:18.370 --> 40:19.790]  I knew that one sounded familiar.
[40:20.510 --> 40:21.550]  25th is a new one.
[40:21.710 --> 40:22.130]  Let's...
[40:22.130 --> 40:22.330]  Okay.
[40:22.410 --> 40:25.770]  Let's go and find another phone company that no longer exists.
[40:32.730 --> 40:36.890]  Due to weather conditions, all Ameritech circuits are busy.
[40:37.350 --> 40:39.750]  Please try your call again later.
[40:40.730 --> 40:41.070]  Yeah.
[40:41.330 --> 40:42.250]  Remember Ameritech.
[40:43.170 --> 40:47.150]  Due to weather conditions, all Ameritech circuits are busy.
[40:48.050 --> 40:50.010]  Please try your call again later.
[40:50.470 --> 40:52.210]  That guy sounds like he has job satisfaction.
[40:52.470 --> 40:52.730]  I'm sorry.
[40:52.790 --> 40:53.050]  Say again?
[40:53.250 --> 40:54.830]  That guy sounds like he has job satisfaction.
[40:54.850 --> 40:55.050]  Yeah.
[40:55.110 --> 40:56.030]  I want to find that guy.
[40:56.210 --> 41:02.970]  I want that to be our mission here, to find that guy and have him read the part again in the studio because there's something so inspiring about that.
[41:03.050 --> 41:03.950]  Just the way he did it.
[41:04.190 --> 41:04.310]  You know?
[41:04.350 --> 41:07.490]  You know he was there with a sheet of paper in front of him and saying, this is my chance.
[41:07.610 --> 41:08.190]  This is...
[41:08.190 --> 41:13.110]  We don't know who's going to hear this message, but it could be somebody big and I could be discovered this way.
[41:13.370 --> 41:14.390]  And now we have.
[41:14.470 --> 41:15.270]  We have discovered him.
[41:16.050 --> 41:17.150]  Let's try another one.
[41:26.280 --> 41:27.860]  Thank you for calling Bell Atlantic.
[41:28.120 --> 41:31.400]  Due to an emergency condition, we are operating with a reduced staff.
[41:31.540 --> 41:33.880]  And if you stay on the line, you may experience a delay.
[41:34.100 --> 41:37.620]  You may find it more convenient to call us back at another time for assistance.
[41:38.960 --> 41:39.360]  Yeah.
[41:42.080 --> 41:43.040]  I don't know where it's going.
[41:43.260 --> 41:43.860]  Is it going anywhere?
[41:47.280 --> 41:56.100]  Wouldn't it be something if somebody from Bell Atlantic is trapped in an office someplace due to a high calling biome, all of our circuits are busy.
[41:56.680 --> 41:57.960]  Please try again later.
[41:58.280 --> 41:58.660]  Thank you.
[41:58.800 --> 41:59.760]  This is a recording.
[42:00.600 --> 42:02.400]  I think we ran into that guy last week, too.
[42:02.600 --> 42:03.080]  That was...
[42:03.080 --> 42:05.940]  He just pronounced volume as volume.
[42:06.180 --> 42:07.140]  That guy's name is Ray.
[42:07.260 --> 42:07.800]  It has to be.
[42:08.260 --> 42:09.240]  It just has to be.
[42:09.620 --> 42:10.780]  You know, it's interesting, though.
[42:10.880 --> 42:18.320]  If you think about it, probably somewhere there's some, you know, system, some answering, phone answering system that they've dialed down the number of circuits to zero.
[42:18.320 --> 42:21.280]  And so now when you hit that, it says, well, how many are available?
[42:21.280 --> 42:23.280]  And how many, you know, do I have?
[42:23.420 --> 42:24.200]  And, well, it's zero.
[42:24.580 --> 42:25.140]  Oh, well.
[42:25.300 --> 42:28.840]  And the really old ones say, due to nuclear catastrophe, due to the Soviet invasion.
[42:28.840 --> 42:36.300]  This is the equivalent of when you have a computer and you don't clean it out and you have all kinds of files from years ago that have absolutely no relevance to anything anymore.
[42:36.340 --> 42:37.520]  The phone company does the same thing.
[42:37.600 --> 42:39.740]  They leave their numbers lying around everywhere.
[42:39.920 --> 42:44.000]  Is there a piece of hardware somewhere that's answering these that's only set on this line?
[42:44.000 --> 42:47.540]  Or is it, you know, some part of some system that, you know...
[42:47.540 --> 42:49.400]  I don't think it's a mechanical piece of hardware anymore.
[42:49.400 --> 42:51.720]  I think it's just a phone number that forwards to a recording.
[42:51.740 --> 42:54.240]  It's probably all digital, but they've just lost track of it.
[42:54.240 --> 42:59.680]  So there's some digital answering system somewhere that has been dialed down to zero lines or whatever.
[42:59.880 --> 43:00.120]  Possibly.
[43:00.120 --> 43:03.160]  But maybe is providing calls support for, like, Verizon.
[43:03.160 --> 43:04.640]  It might just forward to that message.
[43:04.760 --> 43:06.100]  It might not actually have to do with the circuitry.
[43:06.220 --> 43:09.360]  It might just be something that was programmed that they've walked away from.
[43:09.400 --> 43:11.920]  I mean, they don't even have the same phone company name anymore.
[43:12.260 --> 43:13.660]  That phone company doesn't exist.
[43:13.660 --> 43:15.520]  So, obviously, they've lost track of it.
[43:15.920 --> 43:22.480]  But if they're good and they listen to the numbers we're dialing and figure it out, they can find them, track them down, and, well, don't get rid of them.
[43:22.520 --> 43:23.220]  These are so cool.
[43:23.460 --> 43:25.260]  I'd like to have these around for a while.
[43:25.440 --> 43:26.400]  This is one of my favorites.
[43:34.160 --> 43:34.860]  Listen carefully.
[43:38.950 --> 43:41.430]  You have just deactivated this feature.
[43:44.710 --> 43:45.610]  I love it.
[43:46.850 --> 43:48.430]  That is just so mysterious.
[43:48.750 --> 43:50.890]  You know, I wonder when you would ever have gotten that message.
[43:50.890 --> 43:53.910]  Wait, wait, so you mean to tell me we've just deactivated our ability to make phone calls?
[43:53.950 --> 43:55.790]  I don't know what feature we deactivated.
[43:55.870 --> 43:56.770]  We deactivated something.
[43:56.890 --> 43:58.870]  I think we just called some part of the game portal.
[43:59.010 --> 44:00.050]  We just called into the game.
[44:00.590 --> 44:01.490]  That was quite awesome.
[44:01.590 --> 44:01.850]  Yeah.
[44:02.750 --> 44:03.190]  Okay.
[44:03.450 --> 44:10.770]  And this is something that you might have gotten if you didn't pay your bill and you tried to call anybody after that happened.
[44:15.280 --> 44:16.060]  We're sorry.
[44:16.340 --> 44:18.000]  Your service has been interrupted.
[44:18.520 --> 44:21.880]  For fire, medical, and police emergencies, dial 911.
[44:22.680 --> 44:26.460]  To discuss your account, please contact your local service provider.
[44:26.760 --> 44:27.400]  Thank you.
[44:29.500 --> 44:30.180]  I don't know.
[44:30.180 --> 44:32.720]  There's either a marching band behind her or there's a thunderstorm going on.
[44:33.040 --> 44:33.700]  Here's something.
[44:33.820 --> 44:34.620]  I don't know what that's all about.
[44:34.740 --> 44:35.220]  Tesla coil.
[44:35.740 --> 44:36.000]  Yeah.
[44:36.240 --> 44:36.380]  Yeah.
[44:36.660 --> 44:42.340]  And then, of course, you have your general technical things, such as...
[44:42.340 --> 44:43.260]  Do we have a dial tone here?
[44:43.460 --> 44:43.640]  Okay.
[44:57.710 --> 44:59.910]  Actually, this is the one that changes.
[45:00.010 --> 45:07.710]  I'm going to try that number a second time because if you call this a couple of times, you get different messages, which I think is kind of interesting.
[45:08.230 --> 45:10.090]  But if we get the same one again, we'll move on to the next one.
[45:10.090 --> 45:12.070]  This is a test announcement.
[45:12.150 --> 45:16.370]  This is a test announcement for use at any time in emergency cases.
[45:16.690 --> 45:17.030]  Thank you.
[45:19.570 --> 45:23.230]  And now we've shared that with everybody and you can all use that for...
[45:23.850 --> 45:24.470]  The emergency.
[45:24.790 --> 45:25.150]  Yeah.
[45:25.430 --> 45:26.210]  That's what it's for.
[45:26.770 --> 45:28.550]  At any time you can use that.
[45:28.730 --> 45:28.950]  Yeah.
[45:29.250 --> 45:29.550]  Apparently.
[45:31.170 --> 45:31.850]  Oh, boy.
[45:32.270 --> 45:32.850]  All right.
[45:32.870 --> 45:34.190]  We have a couple more.
[45:34.270 --> 45:37.350]  Then we're going to take some phone calls at 212-209-2900.
[45:37.350 --> 45:40.030]  That number we'll answer with a human being.
[45:40.030 --> 45:41.330]  We guarantee it.
[45:41.470 --> 45:42.030]  Let's try this one.
[45:52.960 --> 45:53.780]  We're sorry.
[45:54.120 --> 45:58.960]  Due to telephone company facility trouble, your call cannot be completed at this time.
[45:59.240 --> 46:01.080]  Will you try your call again later?
[46:03.860 --> 46:06.320]  That's a really distant sound there.
[46:06.480 --> 46:08.180]  I like that she phrased it as a question.
[46:08.180 --> 46:09.360]  Will you try it again later?
[46:09.480 --> 46:12.560]  Usually it's, you know, like, try it later, but, you know, it's up to you.
[46:12.560 --> 46:19.040]  It would be cool to hook up one of those voice response systems where she says that, and she's expecting a reply, and you have to say yes or no.
[46:19.180 --> 46:21.220]  And if you say no, then you get routed someplace else.
[46:22.260 --> 46:22.720]  All right.
[46:22.820 --> 46:23.260]  Let's try this one.
[46:44.870 --> 46:46.290]  I think this might take four rings.
[46:48.210 --> 46:52.330]  The business telephone number you have dialed is experiencing a temporary service problem.
[46:52.570 --> 46:53.970]  It has been reported to U.S.
[46:54.030 --> 46:56.690]  West Communications, who is checking into the cause of the trouble.
[46:56.930 --> 46:58.430]  We are sorry for the inconvenience.
[46:58.690 --> 46:59.730]  Please try your call again later.
[47:00.310 --> 47:01.130]  They're still checking.
[47:01.310 --> 47:01.950]  Yeah, of course, U.S.
[47:02.030 --> 47:03.210]  West no longer exists either.
[47:03.530 --> 47:05.950]  So that's another one that will never go anywhere.
[47:05.950 --> 47:08.050]  Okay, down to our last three here.
[47:08.130 --> 47:09.970]  And these ones are kind of funny.
[47:10.110 --> 47:10.670]  Kind of funny.
[47:10.850 --> 47:13.610]  So if you're allergic to humor, you might not want to listen to this.
[47:14.250 --> 47:14.550]  Ready?
[47:22.260 --> 47:24.580]  The number you have dialed is on your own line.
[47:25.080 --> 47:29.160]  Please hang up your receiver and allow time for your called party's telephone to ring.
[47:29.380 --> 47:31.120]  Then pick up your receiver to converse.
[47:33.000 --> 47:35.380]  The number you have dialed is on your own line.
[47:35.540 --> 47:36.220]  I'm sorry, was that what?
[47:36.320 --> 47:37.080]  Is that in 213?
[47:38.060 --> 47:40.460]  You know, I'm not supposed to be giving out the actual numbers.
[47:40.660 --> 47:42.960]  No, it's in 573, wherever that is.
[47:43.360 --> 47:46.720]  I thought I was recognizing my home zip codes.
[47:46.720 --> 47:51.020]  I think that might be an old party line recording where people used to have party lines.
[47:51.200 --> 47:54.540]  Maybe somebody out there can call us and tell us what it was like to have a party line.
[47:55.000 --> 47:56.460]  Do you guys even know what a party line is?
[47:56.620 --> 47:56.780]  Yeah.
[47:56.980 --> 47:59.160]  It's not the thing you call the 800 number.
[47:59.240 --> 47:59.640]  It's not that.
[47:59.740 --> 48:00.400]  The 900 number.
[48:00.400 --> 48:03.120]  No, it's actually people would be on your line.
[48:03.260 --> 48:04.400]  The phone would ring differently.
[48:04.680 --> 48:07.840]  Kind of like what it does in offices now where phones ring differently for different people.
[48:08.560 --> 48:10.700]  They still have fun party lines around today.
[48:10.860 --> 48:12.940]  I don't think anybody has a party line anywhere.
[48:13.180 --> 48:14.320]  I really don't.
[48:15.200 --> 48:17.380]  But if somebody does, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
[48:17.560 --> 48:18.680]  Okay, down to our last two.
[48:19.520 --> 48:20.880]  This one's just kind of strange.
[48:40.790 --> 48:42.030]  I think this one's four rings.
[48:43.130 --> 48:45.410]  Good morning, you reached the Bell Atlantic North Help Desk.
[48:45.570 --> 48:47.730]  The time of this announcement is 11.30 a.m.
[48:48.410 --> 48:53.250]  Since Monday, May 25th, the Bell Atlantic North Help Desk has been unable to access games.
[48:53.590 --> 48:56.130]  This includes Solitaire and Minesweeper.
[48:56.770 --> 48:57.990]  There is an estimated time.
[48:58.250 --> 48:59.130]  They will never be back.
[48:59.270 --> 49:03.250]  If you have further questions, please hold for the Bell Atlantic North Help Desk initial menu.
[49:06.770 --> 49:09.230]  Any theories on just what that's all about?
[49:10.250 --> 49:14.530]  I just want to know if you've done the research Monday, May whatever, what year could that have been?
[49:14.550 --> 49:15.610]  Yeah, you know, I didn't do that.
[49:15.750 --> 49:18.530]  Maybe somebody can help us out with that.
[49:18.610 --> 49:21.250]  But it could be a variety of Monday, May 25th.
[49:21.290 --> 49:22.910]  Who knows how far back that goes, Bell Atlantic.
[49:23.130 --> 49:25.730]  Maybe they got fired by Mayor Bloomberg for playing Solitaire.
[49:25.990 --> 49:26.310]  Maybe.
[49:26.470 --> 49:28.870]  It is in the 212 area code, I will say that.
[49:28.970 --> 49:30.230]  Okay, down to our last one.
[49:30.950 --> 49:33.510]  And Bernie, this last one is in Philadelphia, by the way.
[49:33.790 --> 49:34.330]  Oh, good.
[49:34.470 --> 49:35.070]  Yeah, here we go.
[49:48.060 --> 49:49.740]  Thank you for calling Bell Atlantic.
[49:49.740 --> 49:53.920]  All of our lines are busy right now, but your call is important to us.
[49:54.300 --> 49:55.200]  Please hold on.
[49:55.380 --> 49:58.440]  Our next available representative will be with you shortly.
[50:00.220 --> 50:02.780]  What do you say we, uh, we hold on?
[50:03.100 --> 50:06.020]  I don't think that's anybody, we've ever heard anybody think that.
[50:17.530 --> 50:18.950]  I hope you're catching the lyrics.
[50:20.230 --> 50:21.590]  Our call's about to be picked up.
[50:22.450 --> 50:22.670]  Due
[50:25.780 --> 50:29.280]  to a high calling volume, all of our circuits are busy.
[50:29.800 --> 50:31.160]  Please try again later.
[50:31.420 --> 50:31.860]  Thank you.
[50:32.000 --> 50:32.960]  This is a recording.
[50:33.820 --> 50:34.620]  All right, all right.
[50:34.860 --> 50:35.460]  I'm sorry, guys.
[50:35.600 --> 50:36.260]  We're trying to catch the lyrics.
[50:36.560 --> 50:37.340]  Did you catch the lyrics?
[50:37.400 --> 50:42.320]  I was trying to catch, but it's something about being big and glorious and the people's revolution and things like that?
[50:42.420 --> 50:45.800]  Yeah, it was, it was, we're doing more than just phones.
[50:46.140 --> 50:46.800]  Yeah, yeah, okay.
[50:47.540 --> 50:48.720]  212-209-2900.
[50:48.920 --> 50:50.660]  Let's, uh, let's see what our listeners have to say.
[50:50.720 --> 50:51.020]  Good evening.
[50:51.140 --> 50:51.720]  You're on Off the Hook.
[50:51.720 --> 50:52.800]  Yeah, how you doing?
[50:52.960 --> 50:53.920]  This is kind of simpler.
[50:54.160 --> 50:58.560]  I get a wrong number when I call for my Cablevision to pay my cable bill.
[50:59.540 --> 51:04.660]  That's either 368-5700 or 348, I believe.
[51:05.080 --> 51:08.040]  It's 5700, uh, 348 or 368-5700.
[51:08.180 --> 51:10.600]  I don't know why you're telling us the number for Cablevision, but okay, yeah.
[51:11.140 --> 51:12.600]  Sorry, you're calling them and what happens?
[51:12.900 --> 51:17.800]  But when I dial 5800 or 57 or 56, it's one number off.
[51:17.800 --> 51:20.300]  Uh, I get the inclement weather service.
[51:20.520 --> 51:24.020]  And then if there's no inclement weather, they say this is the inclement weather service.
[51:24.200 --> 51:25.840]  There is no inclement weather at this time.
[51:26.300 --> 51:27.820]  Well, that's, that's good to know.
[51:27.920 --> 51:30.840]  And it's nice people have a phone number to call to find that information out.
[51:30.940 --> 51:37.480]  But, uh, yeah, by all means, uh, write to us, OTH at 2600.com if you have an interesting phone number for us to call because, you know, in the end, it's all about phones.
[51:37.580 --> 51:41.020]  And I want to give a special thanks to David for, uh, for sending us all those numbers.
[51:41.140 --> 51:42.240]  I don't know how he gets all the numbers.
[51:42.460 --> 51:44.740]  Hopefully he'll keep supplying us with, uh, interesting ones.
[51:45.820 --> 51:48.660]  Because it's always fun to pick up the phone and just dial away.
[51:49.020 --> 51:49.320]  Good evening.
[51:49.460 --> 51:50.080]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:51.780 --> 51:52.340]  Speak up.
[51:53.120 --> 51:53.640]  Yes, hi.
[51:53.720 --> 51:56.120]  I wanted to talk about the Sony PlayStation Network attack.
[51:56.380 --> 51:56.940]  Oh, yes.
[51:57.560 --> 51:58.960]  That's been in the news a little bit.
[51:59.140 --> 51:59.860]  Can you make it brief?
[52:00.760 --> 52:01.120]  Yeah.
[52:01.340 --> 52:01.800]  All right, go ahead.
[52:02.200 --> 52:04.760]  Anybody have hints about what group might be responsible?
[52:05.200 --> 52:07.060]  Well, is it the Israeli government this time?
[52:07.580 --> 52:08.300]  Not anonymous.
[52:08.620 --> 52:09.420]  A lot of people...
[52:09.420 --> 52:09.860]  I'm sorry, what?
[52:10.080 --> 52:10.820]  Not anonymous.
[52:11.000 --> 52:12.660]  Wait, how can you say not anonymous?
[52:12.660 --> 52:15.980]  Because anonymous is well-known for claiming responsibility for stuff.
[52:16.000 --> 52:18.960]  Sure, but anonymous isn't actually a group, so anyone could do it.
[52:19.540 --> 52:23.960]  Yeah, this whole, like, we're not a group, we're anonymous, but we're taking responsibility, it doesn't fly.
[52:23.960 --> 52:24.520]  I'm sorry.
[52:24.600 --> 52:25.820]  You can't have it both ways.
[52:25.960 --> 52:27.240]  You're either anonymous or you're not.
[52:27.940 --> 52:34.820]  Regardless, in the past, whenever they've done stuff, and they would have reason to be pissed at Tony after they were, like, just too hot.
[52:34.880 --> 52:37.840]  But can I say I'm anonymous and do it and say anonymous did it?
[52:37.980 --> 52:39.240]  So how do you know I didn't do it?
[52:39.360 --> 52:40.400]  Because you didn't say it.
[52:41.020 --> 52:42.060]  Because I'm anonymous.
[52:42.060 --> 52:44.180]  I don't want to show my cards.
[52:44.900 --> 52:46.860]  I think the summary is we don't know who did it.
[52:47.000 --> 52:47.740]  Yeah, I think...
[52:47.740 --> 52:48.440]  Jim says it was him.
[52:48.700 --> 52:48.920]  Ah!
[52:50.560 --> 52:52.200]  I hope we've been helpful, caller.
[52:52.760 --> 52:53.220]  Very much.
[52:53.360 --> 52:54.720]  All right, thanks for that.
[52:55.180 --> 52:55.940]  And good evening.
[52:56.060 --> 52:56.660]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:57.080 --> 52:57.680]  Oh, dear.
[52:58.540 --> 52:58.940]  Dalton's.
[52:59.060 --> 52:59.640]  Yeah, good evening.
[52:59.860 --> 53:00.620]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:02.420 --> 53:03.200]  Speak up, please.
[53:03.440 --> 53:03.960]  Oh, hi.
[53:04.640 --> 53:07.100]  I'm calling about the grand jury.
[53:07.380 --> 53:08.820]  Let me kill my radio here.
[53:08.820 --> 53:10.460]  Okay, hopefully you're not calling from the grand jury.
[53:10.560 --> 53:11.000]  No, no, no, no.
[53:11.020 --> 53:11.440]  Okay, good.
[53:11.600 --> 53:17.880]  The grand jury is an interesting privilege because the grand jury has powers the prosecutor doesn't want the jurors to know about.
[53:18.020 --> 53:18.300]  Oh, yeah?
[53:18.760 --> 53:21.560]  They can initiate their own investigation.
[53:21.880 --> 53:28.060]  So, for example, for government corruption, a grand jury might do something like start its own investigation.
[53:28.520 --> 53:30.800]  And the courts and the prosecutors hate this.
[53:30.820 --> 53:32.900]  They call it a runaway grand jury.
[53:33.040 --> 53:33.360]  Oh.
[53:33.660 --> 53:36.400]  Trying to do everything they can to prevent you from knowing that.
[53:36.400 --> 53:37.220]  Well, here's the thing.
[53:37.340 --> 53:39.680]  A grand jury has more than 12 people.
[53:39.780 --> 53:41.660]  I think it has something like 25 people on it.
[53:41.700 --> 53:46.620]  Yeah, so you've got to convince all 25 people they want to spend the next six months investigating the president or something.
[53:46.620 --> 53:54.000]  So, when I'm on the grand jury and I want to get them to turn their focus on the people in charge, how might I do that?
[53:54.240 --> 53:58.180]  I've never been on a grand jury and I've never tried to make one run away.
[53:58.180 --> 54:00.100]  But it's something that you've got to...
[54:00.100 --> 54:01.300]  I mean, if you want to...
[54:01.300 --> 54:04.740]  If you have a government official in mind that you think should be indicted...
[54:04.740 --> 54:05.460]  I have a few, yes.
[54:05.840 --> 54:07.880]  Is this a federal grand jury or a state grand jury?
[54:07.880 --> 54:08.840]  I think it's state.
[54:09.580 --> 54:10.560]  I think it's state.
[54:10.820 --> 54:13.180]  Well, you need an official somewhere in New York.
[54:13.320 --> 54:14.200]  It might even be county.
[54:14.460 --> 54:15.220]  You might even...
[54:15.220 --> 54:15.700]  What county?
[54:15.780 --> 54:16.080]  Nassau?
[54:16.140 --> 54:16.440]  Suffolk.
[54:17.140 --> 54:20.360]  You might be able to investigate the DA.
[54:21.740 --> 54:23.620]  Can I investigate Peter King?
[54:23.620 --> 54:24.760]  I'd like to do that.
[54:26.840 --> 54:27.200]  You...
[54:27.200 --> 54:27.780]  Let's see.
[54:28.000 --> 54:30.300]  He's got a district in Suffolk.
[54:30.500 --> 54:32.080]  I mean, part of his district is in Suffolk.
[54:32.980 --> 54:33.440]  Is it?
[54:33.560 --> 54:33.760]  Okay.
[54:33.920 --> 54:34.840]  Well, then, this could be good.
[54:34.940 --> 54:36.780]  It's like an all-you-can-eat smorgasbord of something.
[54:36.780 --> 54:38.900]  I mean, I wish to know less about Peter King myself.
[54:39.240 --> 54:40.880]  No, but I want to dig up the dirt.
[54:41.520 --> 54:43.640]  It's called something called presentiment.
[54:43.780 --> 54:44.820]  And you almost never see them.
[54:44.900 --> 54:49.620]  Because the usual procedure is the prosecutor tells you exactly what you have to do and you believe him.
[54:50.040 --> 54:51.780]  And you do what he tells you to do.
[54:51.940 --> 54:52.180]  Uh-huh.
[54:52.180 --> 54:54.160]  Which is why they can indict a hand sandwich.
[54:54.820 --> 54:55.260]  Yes.
[54:55.260 --> 54:57.560]  I'd like to try that, too, if we have some extra time.
[54:57.880 --> 54:58.400]  I was curious.
[54:58.400 --> 55:04.660]  Do you know anything about if someone's subpoenaed to appear in front of a grand jury, if they have any legal recourse to avoid...
[55:04.660 --> 55:09.260]  They have a right to not incriminate themselves unless they've been granted immunity.
[55:10.400 --> 55:10.840]  Okay.
[55:10.840 --> 55:15.900]  So they have to give you immunity from prosecution before you can be made to testify against yourself.
[55:16.120 --> 55:19.680]  But that's a bit tricky because you don't know what they're investigating necessarily.
[55:19.680 --> 55:22.260]  They don't... you don't even know if you're being investigated.
[55:22.460 --> 55:23.240]  Yeah, you do want to have an attorney.
[55:23.240 --> 55:24.680]  And there's a lot of crimes out there.
[55:24.780 --> 55:28.000]  I don't have an attorney advising you because you really don't know what they're...
[55:28.000 --> 55:28.960]  You know, yeah, you're right.
[55:29.040 --> 55:29.800]  There are a lot of crimes.
[55:29.960 --> 55:37.140]  I mean, that's the whole point of that speech in Ayn Rand that says the point is not to have a nation of law-abiding citizens.
[55:37.140 --> 55:44.300]  The point is to have a nation that has so many laws that are so contradictory and so confusing that nobody can hope to obey them.
[55:44.400 --> 55:46.120]  Then everybody's guilty.
[55:46.360 --> 55:47.540]  Then you've got something on them.
[55:47.800 --> 55:48.700]  Then you can control them.
[55:49.140 --> 55:49.560]  All right.
[55:49.660 --> 55:50.960]  Well, listen, thanks for the information.
[55:50.960 --> 55:53.800]  We're going to be following this whole grand jury thing very closely in the weeks ahead.
[55:53.940 --> 55:58.940]  Look it up because I haven't researched it because I've never been placed on a grand jury.
[55:59.080 --> 56:03.400]  But for someone who's about to go, it might be very interesting to study the history of it.
[56:03.420 --> 56:03.680]  Oh, boy.
[56:03.760 --> 56:04.880]  It sounds so ominous now.
[56:04.900 --> 56:05.220]  But thanks.
[56:05.380 --> 56:06.720]  Thanks for the call.
[56:06.840 --> 56:08.460]  And we'll definitely keep people updated.
[56:08.540 --> 56:09.860]  Let's see if we can squeeze in one more.
[56:10.040 --> 56:10.500]  Good evening.
[56:10.700 --> 56:11.420]  You're on Off the Hook.
[56:12.520 --> 56:12.920]  Hello.
[56:13.240 --> 56:13.440]  Hi.
[56:13.520 --> 56:13.800]  Speak up.
[56:14.180 --> 56:14.420]  Yes.
[56:14.600 --> 56:15.620]  About the grand jury.
[56:16.100 --> 56:23.920]  If you're a witness who's subpoenaed by the prosecutor's grand jury, a way to avoid that is to have your attorney file a motion to quash that subpoena with the court.
[56:24.120 --> 56:26.840]  And if a judge will grant that, you're out of it.
[56:26.960 --> 56:29.620]  But I understand something that's difficult to get a judge to do.
[56:30.220 --> 56:30.760]  All right.
[56:30.860 --> 56:31.700]  Well, advice taken.
[56:31.820 --> 56:32.160]  Thank you.
[56:32.280 --> 56:32.800]  Thank you for that.
[56:33.080 --> 56:33.740]  Last call.
[56:33.920 --> 56:34.300]  Good evening.
[56:34.480 --> 56:35.360]  You're on Off the Hook.
[56:35.740 --> 56:36.420]  Yes, sir.
[56:36.740 --> 56:36.940]  Hi.
[56:37.020 --> 56:37.300]  Speak up.
[56:38.280 --> 56:38.600]  Hello.
[56:41.600 --> 56:46.840]  How these people got into the Sony group?
[56:47.940 --> 56:53.460]  Well, we mentioned that just a moment ago, and we don't really have any more information than anybody else at this point.
[56:53.560 --> 56:55.620]  Anybody have any final words on Sony PlayStation?
[56:55.620 --> 56:57.980]  I mean, whoever did it did an awfully thorough job.
[56:58.100 --> 57:02.460]  They managed to convince Sony they should shut down the service for weeks, and people are very mad about it.
[57:02.500 --> 57:07.300]  Well, apparently what Sony is doing is just they're redoing everything from the ground up because they realize how serious this is.
[57:07.420 --> 57:11.380]  All kinds of credit card information and personal information has gotten out, not just game information.
[57:11.380 --> 57:14.260]  So it's really kind of serious.
[57:14.440 --> 57:15.700]  Weren't they sending passwords in the clear?
[57:16.100 --> 57:18.180]  I think they were doing all kinds of silly things.
[57:18.180 --> 57:20.600]  But anyway, we can talk about this in weeks ahead.
[57:21.160 --> 57:22.080]  We'd certainly like to.
[57:22.940 --> 57:26.140]  But in the meantime, email us, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:26.340 --> 57:27.320]  We'll be back next week.
[57:27.420 --> 57:30.620]  Next week is the first week of the spring fundraiser.
[57:30.620 --> 57:33.280]  So you know we're going to have all kinds of fun things coming your way.
[57:33.800 --> 57:35.700]  Again, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:35.820 --> 57:36.560]  Emmanuel for Off the Hook.
[57:36.760 --> 57:37.620]  Have yourselves a good night.
[57:37.620 --> 57:38.400]  We'll
[59:32.050 --> 59:42.370]  be right back.