[00:01.000 --> 00:03.060]  That's it for today's program.
[00:03.340 --> 00:05.380]  The newscast was produced by Catherine Komp.
[00:05.680 --> 00:07.480]  Headlines editor was Jess Burns.
[00:07.700 --> 00:09.780]  Our Washington DC editor, Matt Laszlo.
[00:10.020 --> 00:15.260]  Our technical production team at KPFA in Berkeley is Rose Gatapchi and Jane Chang.
[00:16.080 --> 00:19.340]  FSRN welcomes your questions, comments and news tips.
[00:19.720 --> 00:22.580]  Write to us, comments at fsrn.org.
[00:23.200 --> 00:24.240]  Thanks for listening.
[00:24.520 --> 00:26.360]  In San Francisco, I'm Danny Wood.
[00:37.270 --> 00:40.590]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:40.770 --> 00:42.330]  The time is just about 7 o'clock.
[00:42.690 --> 00:47.110]  Stay tuned for a special expanded edition of Off the Hook.
[01:11.600 --> 01:13.280]  I hope that's understood.
[01:13.460 --> 01:14.320]  One day, let me know.
[02:38.770 --> 02:39.690]  And good evening to everybody.
[02:41.970 --> 02:42.510]  I'm sorry.
[02:42.570 --> 02:44.110]  I just drank a club mate and I'm kind of jittery.
[02:45.450 --> 02:46.050]  How you doing?
[02:46.670 --> 02:48.610]  It's Wednesday again.
[02:48.610 --> 02:52.510]  We have a special two-hour program tonight, which is a lot of fun.
[02:52.550 --> 02:54.550]  And we have all kinds of people here tonight.
[02:55.830 --> 02:57.230]  This is Emmanuel, joined by Mike.
[02:57.670 --> 02:59.270]  Can we make it through the first two minutes?
[02:59.270 --> 02:59.970]  I don't know.
[03:00.470 --> 03:01.330]  It's been rough.
[03:01.490 --> 03:02.030]  It really has been.
[03:02.550 --> 03:02.990]  Dotret.
[03:03.790 --> 03:04.230]  Voltaire.
[03:04.410 --> 03:04.590]  Hi.
[03:04.790 --> 03:05.090]  Jim.
[03:05.330 --> 03:05.510]  Hello.
[03:05.750 --> 03:06.150]  Bernie S.
[03:06.270 --> 03:06.930]  down in Philadelphia.
[03:07.450 --> 03:08.290]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:08.610 --> 03:13.750]  Over on the other side of the studio, way over there, is the familiar face of Greg Newby.
[03:14.190 --> 03:14.870]  Hey, what's up?
[03:14.970 --> 03:16.630]  It's great to be here all the way from Alaska.
[03:16.850 --> 03:18.070]  All the way from Alaska.
[03:18.070 --> 03:18.490]  Wow.
[03:18.610 --> 03:19.190]  How about that?
[03:19.450 --> 03:24.190]  And is that the voice of Mitch Altman, I hear, at the other side of the country?
[03:24.810 --> 03:25.530]  Yo, it is.
[03:26.030 --> 03:26.390]  Wow.
[03:26.470 --> 03:27.390]  This is really special.
[03:27.510 --> 03:29.390]  We have a lot of really cool people here tonight.
[03:30.350 --> 03:39.170]  Well, first of all, Greg, since you're right here in New York, from Alaska, is this the first time since the next hope that you've been here?
[03:39.530 --> 03:44.870]  You know, I've actually been in town probably two or three times a year, usually just for a day or two visiting parents and stuff.
[03:45.010 --> 03:50.970]  But I almost never stay more than a night or two, and I almost never actually make it into New York proper.
[03:51.090 --> 03:53.690]  So it's kind of a thrill to spend a couple days in the city.
[03:53.690 --> 03:58.210]  Well, it's your lucky day because you're here for a show and a fundraiser show and an expanded fundraiser show.
[03:58.370 --> 03:58.790]  So, wow.
[03:59.270 --> 04:02.590]  Yeah, we actually are big fans of Democracy Now!
[04:02.670 --> 04:03.430]  back in Fairbanks.
[04:03.530 --> 04:04.350]  We catch it every morning.
[04:04.530 --> 04:08.050]  We're on a very special 29-hour tape delay.
[04:08.970 --> 04:10.350]  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[04:10.490 --> 04:11.750]  29-hour tape delay?
[04:11.770 --> 04:15.810]  Why don't you just air it four hours later, or five hours later, rather?
[04:15.810 --> 04:18.210]  I mean, that's a day and five hours.
[04:18.370 --> 04:19.930]  You did that math really well, actually.
[04:20.090 --> 04:20.210]  Thank you.
[04:20.250 --> 04:22.070]  I've asked myself the same question.
[04:22.230 --> 04:25.750]  I guess there was, way back when, there was a problem with the podcast.
[04:26.010 --> 04:28.390]  So we download it and then play it back from automation system.
[04:28.430 --> 04:31.870]  And I guess there's a problem with the podcast not always being ready in time.
[04:32.050 --> 04:36.610]  And so they took the conservative approach because it's almost always ready within about 24 or 26 hours.
[04:37.390 --> 04:40.630]  It seems like you should be able to get it live somehow in this day and age.
[04:41.590 --> 04:42.970]  Live would be four in the morning.
[04:42.970 --> 04:45.430]  So, you know, we could get it live, but we'd rather get it.
[04:45.530 --> 04:46.230]  You tape it.
[04:46.290 --> 04:48.410]  You tape it, then you play it back or something like that.
[04:48.990 --> 04:51.830]  You know, I've raised this with the group.
[04:51.830 --> 04:54.910]  It's a student-run radio station, and they have an incredible turnover.
[04:55.130 --> 05:01.250]  And I think that they have not had quite the technical skills with things like computers or taping or machines.
[05:01.710 --> 05:07.050]  They're really good at posters and T-shirts, and also they're doing now a logo.
[05:07.370 --> 05:09.450]  You guys, you broadcast over the air in Fairbanks.
[05:09.470 --> 05:10.350]  That's KSUA.
[05:11.150 --> 05:12.770]  Yeah, exactly, 91.5.
[05:12.770 --> 05:13.110]  Awesome.
[05:13.310 --> 05:13.790]  Well, it's good.
[05:13.910 --> 05:17.770]  I didn't know that you actually did a radio show every week, is it?
[05:17.930 --> 05:19.490]  Yeah, it's really just an indie rock show.
[05:19.570 --> 05:23.170]  So it's a typical college station with a variety during the day.
[05:23.290 --> 05:27.370]  We call it the day shift where you do the playlist from, you know, your regular college music journal stuff.
[05:27.650 --> 05:32.170]  And then during nighttime, we have the, you know, everything, variety, a lot of hip-hop.
[05:32.170 --> 05:37.370]  And there's a fantastic trio, really, of punk shows and metal shows.
[05:37.370 --> 05:51.690]  Now, those of you who have been to any of the more recent HOPE conferences recognize Greg Newby as one of the emcees, a person who introduces people, various types of people at the conference to a mostly receptive audience.
[05:51.690 --> 05:53.210]  So you did that for the next HOPE?
[05:53.290 --> 05:53.830]  Quite a lot.
[05:53.890 --> 05:56.210]  Yeah, I guess I've done it now for about four conferences.
[05:56.530 --> 05:58.970]  And the funny thing is, of course, I never introduce myself.
[05:58.970 --> 06:00.970]  So people might not actually know who I am.
[06:01.110 --> 06:02.450]  But you always dress up really nicely.
[06:02.450 --> 06:10.250]  Yeah, I'm the guy that has a zoot suit and I've worn a graduation, like a college gown type of thing.
[06:10.810 --> 06:13.290]  I hear an evening gown that's on the agenda for next time.
[06:13.370 --> 06:14.170]  We'll see.
[06:14.310 --> 06:15.390]  It's a possibility.
[06:15.510 --> 06:19.250]  I mean, because the problem is in New York in July, you don't really want to be heavily dressed.
[06:19.350 --> 06:21.230]  And the zoot suit actually does get kind of warm.
[06:21.550 --> 06:23.330]  Yeah, but we do have air conditioning inside.
[06:23.330 --> 06:25.510]  So as long as you don't venture outside, you're fine.
[06:25.610 --> 06:28.950]  During those keynotes, it gets really hot up on the stage.
[06:29.050 --> 06:29.490]  That's true.
[06:29.490 --> 06:38.090]  You got the bright lights, you got the, you know, the room is full of perspiring, you know, hacker types and their families and offspring and whatnot.
[06:38.330 --> 06:39.330]  And it does get sticky.
[06:40.210 --> 06:40.470]  Interesting.
[06:41.310 --> 06:41.710]  Mike?
[06:41.710 --> 06:44.910]  We should make up fantastic stories for listeners about what you're wearing today.
[06:45.030 --> 06:45.930]  They'll never know the difference.
[06:46.710 --> 06:48.550]  Well, I think our listeners are astute.
[06:48.650 --> 06:49.670]  They can tell them we're lying.
[06:49.910 --> 06:52.430]  Well, I do have a 2600 shirt on, actually.
[06:52.430 --> 06:52.990]  Oh, look at that.
[06:52.990 --> 06:53.290]  Wow.
[06:53.470 --> 06:55.390]  You've got the 2600 waste management shirt.
[06:55.410 --> 06:55.830]  I do, yeah.
[06:55.830 --> 06:58.850]  Because I've been in a professional training situation all week.
[06:58.850 --> 07:02.770]  And so I had to wear my professional training shirt and look all corporate.
[07:02.810 --> 07:04.190]  And that, you can go to board meetings with that.
[07:04.330 --> 07:05.350]  That's got a collar on it.
[07:05.430 --> 07:06.910]  So that, that 2700 shirt works.
[07:07.070 --> 07:10.330]  It doesn't work with a tie, but it does tie in as far as corporate wear.
[07:10.530 --> 07:10.670]  Yeah.
[07:10.690 --> 07:11.710]  You see, this is very convincing.
[07:11.710 --> 07:12.690]  I almost believe you.
[07:13.470 --> 07:14.590]  I totally believe you.
[07:15.550 --> 07:20.090]  Well, now, Mitch, we have you here, or there, actually.
[07:20.210 --> 07:21.190]  You're in the Bay Area, correct?
[07:21.510 --> 07:22.130]  Yes, I am.
[07:22.270 --> 07:22.610]  I'm home.
[07:23.470 --> 07:27.330]  Now, Mitch, actually, is, well, you've been up to a lot of interesting things.
[07:27.550 --> 07:30.350]  We're going to first talk about the things you've been doing lately.
[07:30.530 --> 07:32.870]  You just got back from, what's the name of that country?
[07:32.990 --> 07:33.970]  I keep forgetting the name of it.
[07:34.450 --> 07:36.830]  That place with a government that's even worse than ours?
[07:37.470 --> 07:38.350]  Well, let's see.
[07:38.550 --> 07:40.950]  Okay, that narrows it down a bit, but not enough.
[07:42.430 --> 07:42.790]  Yeah.
[07:43.310 --> 07:46.350]  Yeah, so I was in China for the last month.
[07:46.350 --> 07:50.590]  And a lot of really amazing things are happening over there.
[07:51.530 --> 07:55.150]  Well, tell us the things that you're responsible for that are amazing, that are happening over there.
[07:55.630 --> 08:03.950]  Well, you know, China, a lot of things are opening up lately that even are very different from a year and a half ago when I was there last.
[08:04.590 --> 08:09.410]  So there's a lot of opening up of things culturally.
[08:09.850 --> 08:17.310]  And it was good timing for me to go there meeting people involved with the hackerspace movement because they really didn't know of each other.
[08:17.410 --> 08:19.450]  And me meeting them, I could hook them all together.
[08:19.910 --> 08:30.570]  And there are now four hackerspaces in China, which is totally new as of this year and mostly this past month.
[08:30.570 --> 08:43.210]  And as a result of hooking people together, a bunch of events happened, including teaching hundreds of people to solder in Beijing at the China Museum of Science and Technology.
[08:44.750 --> 08:57.990]  And there's also a talk I gave on how to start a hackerspace that got standing room only at the Panasonic Center, which gave people a lot of target practice as well for TV Begons.
[08:57.990 --> 09:01.910]  And as a result of that, a new hackerspace is starting in Beijing.
[09:02.390 --> 09:07.630]  And as a result of getting a bunch of people together, there's going to be a Maker Faire in Beijing next April.
[09:07.830 --> 09:08.770]  Oh, my God, really?
[09:08.950 --> 09:10.130]  A Maker Faire in Beijing?
[09:10.510 --> 09:10.970]  Yeah.
[09:11.090 --> 09:21.230]  And also, this other thing that's really interesting, you know, there's people within government and without know that the education system there is both really good and really awful.
[09:21.230 --> 09:36.510]  It's centuries of people doing nothing but trying to get really good at entrance exams so that they can get into a good university, so that they can go to, you know, a government-cush bureaucratic job where they'll do the same thing every day of their life and then die.
[09:37.550 --> 09:43.390]  And that's not really boding well for the future of a society with a vibrant economy.
[09:45.470 --> 09:52.270]  So people really know that they have to foster a culture of creativity in order to have a future.
[09:52.510 --> 09:56.690]  And there are a lot of people... I mean, that's part of why I think all of this is happening over there.
[09:57.350 --> 09:58.930]  It really needs to happen.
[10:00.430 --> 10:19.350]  So, yeah, so there's some people who I met who are really high on getting some people involved with hackerspaces and things like that so that people have hands-on experience and not just theory that they can put into practice to do really cool things as the economy and the rest of the world sort of goes down.
[10:19.350 --> 10:28.670]  The game that's been played before of them just copying, you know, creatively and innovatively copying things and doing better.
[10:29.090 --> 10:33.830]  But they need to create that market and that creativity over there to make it all work.
[10:34.010 --> 10:49.550]  So this one person I met is going to get a whole bunch of high school students from around China and got enough money together that he's going to bring them over to play and learn at hackerspaces and collaborate on projects and then show them off.
[10:49.910 --> 10:58.410]  And the idea, hope, is that they'll go home totally high on all this and spread the gospel of how cool it is to actually do things.
[10:58.590 --> 10:59.010]  Hey, Mitch?
[10:59.410 --> 10:59.630]  Yeah.
[10:59.790 --> 11:05.930]  And I know that in certain countries the hackerspaces won't call themselves hackerspaces because the government won't let them.
[11:06.330 --> 11:08.990]  In China, do they actually call themselves hackerspaces?
[11:09.130 --> 11:10.170]  Do they use the word hacker?
[11:10.610 --> 11:10.930]  Yeah.
[11:10.930 --> 11:15.070]  And at universities, they're getting pressure.
[11:15.310 --> 11:21.370]  The heads of the universities are actually getting pressure to start these spaces, which are essentially hackerspaces.
[11:21.370 --> 11:27.630]  And as a result of me getting some people together, many of them are explicitly calling them hackerspaces.
[11:27.850 --> 11:42.490]  So they'll have these state-of-the-art rooms with audio and presentation equipment and all these tests, all this test equipment for people to come together to just do what they love to do, which is pretty amazing.
[11:42.850 --> 11:43.630]  Hey, Mitch.
[11:43.950 --> 11:44.210]  Yeah.
[11:44.670 --> 11:45.290]  Hey, it's Bernie.
[11:45.430 --> 11:45.910]  I'm in Philadelphia.
[11:46.350 --> 11:46.870]  Hey, Bernie.
[11:47.310 --> 11:48.550]  Hey, I just had a question.
[11:48.890 --> 12:01.210]  You know, a lot of people in the hacker community, probably almost universally, find that filtering of content on the Internet is anathema to them.
[12:01.210 --> 12:03.430]  And what is the...
[12:03.430 --> 12:18.350]  From your discussions with people at the hackerspaces in China, how do they feel about the, you know, the Great Firewall and people not being able in China to seamlessly access anything on the Internet?
[12:18.930 --> 12:19.850]  Yeah, well...
[12:19.850 --> 12:20.710]  Everything on the Internet, rather.
[12:20.930 --> 12:22.930]  Of course, no one really likes it.
[12:23.090 --> 12:32.850]  But, you know, China, people really do have to be aware that there are individuals in Chinese government who aren't going to take criticism very well.
[12:33.770 --> 12:47.890]  So, hackerspaces over there really are focusing on what positive can come from people getting together, doing what they love, to help not only their lives but the people around them, and grow local economy.
[12:47.990 --> 12:53.090]  That's really good for the individuals, for the hackerspace, for the community around them, and the government.
[12:54.330 --> 12:57.790]  Anything that helps the economy is going to be good for everybody.
[12:58.530 --> 13:18.270]  There are organizations in China who have not really gotten along with the Chinese government too well, like Fulangong and, you know, a few others that have created websites that, unlike when we were there, me and Bernie and a bunch of people were there on a trip I organized to China a year and a half ago,
[13:20.090 --> 13:20.570]  hackertrip.
[13:20.570 --> 13:25.310]  And back then, some people in our group set up servers in the U.S.
[13:25.390 --> 13:35.830]  that they can hook into to get HTTP over SSH and stuff like that, so we can get forbidden websites such as Facebook and YouTube and many others.
[13:36.450 --> 13:50.550]  And now, but we have to be a geek to be able to do that, and now these websites that are popping up all over the place, you do not need to be a geek or understand what you're doing to be able to get these, up till now, forbidden websites into China.
[13:51.130 --> 13:56.970]  So, the Chinese government, there are people there who are very intelligent, and they choose their battles.
[13:57.850 --> 14:04.330]  You know, what they do with their intelligence is, you know, questionable, but they choose their battles.
[14:04.530 --> 14:09.770]  So, as they're seeing that this is a losing one, they're going to focus elsewhere, I think.
[14:10.270 --> 14:11.010]  Interesting thing.
[14:11.530 --> 14:21.590]  Now, Mitch, as we know, China's known for having, you know, a government that could, you know, impose its will in certain areas.
[14:21.770 --> 14:27.010]  Now, you were saying that they seem to actually be in favor of hackerspaces, or...
[14:27.710 --> 14:28.390]  What exactly...
[14:28.390 --> 14:30.490]  Do you know anything about, like, the attitude towards this?
[14:33.170 --> 14:33.570]  Mitch?
[14:33.950 --> 14:34.230]  Yeah.
[14:34.630 --> 14:35.130]  Did you hear that?
[14:35.530 --> 14:37.570]  No, I was cut off after Bernie said thanks.
[14:37.570 --> 14:39.610]  Oh, this must be the microphone that doesn't work on the phone.
[14:39.610 --> 14:40.430]  Who was I?
[14:40.650 --> 14:52.850]  Well, basically, what Datra was asking is, if you tell us more about the attitude that the Chinese authorities seem to have towards, quote-unquote, hackers, whether it seems to be more positive than what it is we've been led to believe, or what we have in this country.
[14:53.370 --> 14:58.230]  Yeah, so, you know, it's mixed there, just like it is everywhere else in the world.
[14:58.350 --> 15:13.450]  But when people hear the word hacker, more and more people are wondering which kind of hacker, which is a great leap forward, rather than immediately assume that it's the definition that was promulgated by the mainstream media here in our country, that it's people who do reprehensible,
[15:13.450 --> 15:14.970]  illegal things with computers.
[15:15.210 --> 15:21.650]  So, but of all of the scenes that I've been talking about, hacker is nothing but positive.
[15:22.390 --> 15:34.710]  So hacker means people who can encourage, you know, help themselves through doing what they love and help others in doing the same, and therefore giving China an economic future.
[15:34.710 --> 15:36.930]  And that's, you know, it's totally amazing.
[15:37.110 --> 15:38.970]  I mean, there was none of this a year and a half ago.
[15:39.310 --> 15:43.650]  So where that'll lead is just, I don't know, I'm excited about it.
[15:43.990 --> 15:50.270]  But, you know, and as you go around, people are wondering, you know, like, hackers are, you know, what kind of hacker?
[15:50.750 --> 16:03.890]  And they're wondering if the people who do these nasty things, like the people who broke into Google that started all of the fuss over there, and, or if it's people doing, you know, people do know about the worldwide hacker scene over there.
[16:05.110 --> 16:11.090]  Because people find information, you know, we're a curious species, and you can't really stop that.
[16:11.370 --> 16:21.650]  And I think that's also part of why individuals in government are finding openings now to, if not help it, at least turn a blind eye to it.
[16:21.710 --> 16:22.170]  It's interesting.
[16:22.170 --> 16:26.130]  They have an Amazon store there now, Amazon.cn.
[16:26.690 --> 16:33.370]  I don't think yet they have Kindle, so you can't actually get our magazine on the Kindle over there, which would be really kind of cool.
[16:33.610 --> 16:35.070]  But I did look up 2,600...
[16:35.070 --> 16:35.510]  This is kind of weird.
[16:35.590 --> 16:38.170]  I looked up 2,600 on Amazon.cn.
[16:38.610 --> 16:42.090]  And for some reason, it comes linked with the Justin Bieber book.
[16:43.050 --> 16:50.090]  I don't know why that is, but if you type in, if you look at Best of 2,600 on Amazon.cn, there's Justin Bieber right below us.
[16:50.190 --> 16:53.610]  And go make of that what you will.
[16:54.110 --> 16:57.710]  Mitch, it's amazing the things that you've been up to, the things that you've been doing globally.
[16:58.590 --> 17:00.930]  Unfortunately, tonight, we're in the middle...
[17:00.930 --> 17:01.630]  Well, it's not unfortunate.
[17:01.930 --> 17:03.910]  It's what the magic that makes this place happen.
[17:04.010 --> 17:04.890]  We're in the middle of a fundraiser.
[17:04.990 --> 17:15.910]  But what you've done, you've come up with something that surpasses the things you've done in the past insofar as one of the projects that you're working on.
[17:16.170 --> 17:20.430]  And I'm referring to one of our favorites, the one known as a TV Begon.
[17:20.990 --> 17:26.730]  And what we're doing here tonight, we have a limited number of the best TV Begon that's ever been made.
[17:26.950 --> 17:28.730]  I'm not exaggerating by saying that, am I?
[17:29.190 --> 17:29.930]  No, you are not.
[17:30.090 --> 17:30.310]  Okay.
[17:30.510 --> 17:31.650]  It's the coolest one I've made yet.
[17:31.750 --> 17:32.670]  Now, imagine this.
[17:32.970 --> 17:35.430]  Everyone, just sit back and imagine this for a moment.
[17:35.830 --> 17:39.590]  That you're in a street, you're in a community, you're in a village, very much like your own.
[17:39.650 --> 17:40.290]  Maybe it is your own.
[17:40.770 --> 17:48.530]  And you have the ability, you have the ability to turn off anyone's television set within 100 meters.
[17:48.530 --> 17:49.770]  That's a tenth of a kilometer.
[17:50.410 --> 17:51.710]  Yeah, that's what we're talking about.
[17:51.710 --> 17:55.050]  100 meters, that's an incredible distance.
[17:55.730 --> 18:00.810]  And this new Super TV Begon, I'm not sure if that's the exact name of it, but it's pretty super.
[18:01.750 --> 18:05.990]  That is something that we are offering here tonight for a pledge of $125.
[18:06.470 --> 18:11.150]  And we only have 10 of them, but they are the most powerful ones yet.
[18:11.310 --> 18:15.110]  And they will work both in America and overseas.
[18:15.350 --> 18:16.710]  I believe there's a switch on them.
[18:16.830 --> 18:17.450]  Is that right, Mitch?
[18:17.450 --> 18:22.850]  Yeah, there's a switch so you can choose one of two databases that will work anywhere in the world.
[18:23.190 --> 18:23.630]  Interesting.
[18:24.690 --> 18:33.710]  So basically the first 10 people that call in for this, 212-209-2950, will get the most powerful TV Begon ever made.
[18:33.710 --> 18:48.950]  And you will become king of your neighborhood or your gang or whatever it is, because you'll be able to just push a button and within a couple of seconds, turn off any TV set that you can basically see across the street or just within line of sight, pretty much.
[18:49.070 --> 18:54.710]  And I guess you also have the power to turn it on since it's the same signal that turned it on and off, which is kind of amazing.
[18:54.930 --> 19:05.730]  And the TV Begon is such a playing field leveler because let's say you're in an establishment that just has a TV blaring and you want to be able to talk to the people you're with.
[19:05.830 --> 19:08.110]  Well, now you have the ability to just turn the damn thing off.
[19:08.190 --> 19:12.650]  And yeah, they'll turn it back on, but if you keep turning it off, eventually they give up and you have your peace and quiet.
[19:12.650 --> 19:14.790]  All right, we have two calls on the line already.
[19:14.870 --> 19:17.510]  That means there's only eight left, assuming these people are calling in for them.
[19:17.670 --> 19:20.530]  And let me just add something else too, what we're also offering tonight.
[19:20.870 --> 19:23.810]  And this is a special bonus for people who are local to the area.
[19:23.910 --> 19:29.070]  This weekend, there is a vintage computer fair going on in Wall, New Jersey.
[19:29.310 --> 19:34.090]  Anybody who wants their name added to the list that calls in tonight will get their name added to the list.
[19:34.150 --> 19:36.850]  It's just an extra special thing that we're offering here tonight.
[19:37.350 --> 19:43.030]  And we'll have some words from one of the organizers of that event coming up a little bit later on in the program.
[19:43.410 --> 19:45.490]  212-209-2950.
[19:45.850 --> 19:56.150]  Mitch, tell us something about the history of the TV Be Gone, when you came up with the idea, the reaction, maybe a story or two as to how it's been used over the years.
[19:56.610 --> 20:00.450]  Yeah, well, I came up with the idea when I was sitting in a restaurant with some friends.
[20:01.290 --> 20:02.210]  We got together.
[20:02.210 --> 20:03.770]  We hadn't seen each other in a while.
[20:03.970 --> 20:06.030]  And we really wanted to be with each other.
[20:06.150 --> 20:10.370]  And the TV in the corner with the sound off kept distracting us.
[20:10.610 --> 20:13.030]  And, of course, we eventually started talking about it.
[20:13.110 --> 20:17.890]  And I thought, wouldn't it be cool if you had a device that you could just turn those distractions off?
[20:17.950 --> 20:20.410]  And it hit me in a flash that, of course, I could.
[20:21.110 --> 20:22.110]  And so I did.
[20:22.630 --> 20:27.910]  And, you know, it's interesting that I just made it for me because I loved it.
[20:27.910 --> 20:36.710]  And I had no idea that doing something I love would be something that gave me enough money to keep doing it, you know, making a living on doing what I love.
[20:37.110 --> 20:40.670]  And I think it's great.
[20:40.670 --> 20:47.570]  And I think more people should make time to do what they love and make a living doing what they love as many of us in this scene do.
[20:48.190 --> 21:05.450]  So, yeah, and just last week I got two emails from health care providers who told me that they love using TV Begon because often one of them is an EMT, emergency medical person.
[21:05.630 --> 21:09.170]  They go into a room and the TV is blaring and they can't think.
[21:09.590 --> 21:18.570]  So they said they would, they use their TV Begon just to turn off the TVs wherever they go so that people are calmer, which people are when the TVs are off.
[21:18.890 --> 21:30.610]  Another one was someone who works in a hospital and she's a nurse and she just turns off the TV when she enters the room so that people pay attention and are more attentive and the room's more...
[21:30.610 --> 21:33.690]  It doesn't turn off other things like pacemakers or anything like that.
[21:33.750 --> 21:34.670]  It just turns off TVs.
[21:35.330 --> 21:38.870]  Yeah, and pacemakers fortunately are not remotely controllable.
[21:39.250 --> 21:41.130]  Yeah, no one's come up with that brilliant idea.
[21:41.230 --> 21:41.310]  Yeah.
[21:41.850 --> 21:43.450]  We have three calls on the line, I believe.
[21:43.470 --> 21:47.010]  I think they're the same three, which means we would have seven left.
[21:47.550 --> 21:49.170]  So these things are going pretty fast.
[21:49.170 --> 21:52.510]  Remember, a pledge of 125, you get the most powerful TV Begon ever made.
[21:52.510 --> 22:14.330]  And Mitch, I know every time you appear someplace, whether it be in Berlin or New York or Beijing or Tokyo, all kinds of adventures are started by somebody turning off a television set and having the proprietor or somebody who wants the TV set on getting all flustered and confused as to why this is happening and how they have no control over the situation.
[22:14.330 --> 22:25.510]  But I think it's a really good thing to be able to use this responsibly if something is bugging you and it's a place that you're in that you have a right to be in, you should be able to control your environment.
[22:25.810 --> 22:30.530]  And I think for the most part people get that, although there are occasions where people don't get that.
[22:30.910 --> 22:38.790]  I refer back to an instance in Germany a couple of years ago where I believe there was some consternation at a local mall.
[22:38.790 --> 22:39.350]  Do you remember that?
[22:40.170 --> 22:40.610]  Yeah.
[22:40.730 --> 22:42.310]  There was a local mall.
[22:42.310 --> 22:48.030]  It just happened to build itself across the street from where the Chaos Communications Congress was happening.
[22:48.490 --> 22:58.770]  And it was really nice of them to do so because it provided target practice for all the people first learning to solder by making TV be-gones in the workshop I was making in the Congress.
[22:59.450 --> 23:12.150]  And so people went across the street and they had a lot of fun turning off TVs and they had in there right at the top of the escalators you go into the big huge TV showroom was the largest TV in the world.
[23:12.310 --> 23:13.630]  That's what they said anyway.
[23:13.770 --> 23:15.570]  The largest TV in the world.
[23:15.850 --> 23:16.990]  The largest TV in the world.
[23:17.030 --> 23:20.090]  It was kind of awesome in its own incredible way.
[23:20.410 --> 23:24.630]  And of course that's the first thing you see so that's the first thing that you practice on.
[23:24.850 --> 23:40.710]  So people would turn it off and eventually the people who ran the show over at the new mall figured out that there were all these scruffy weird looking people coming over and that correlated with the TVs turning on and off.
[23:40.710 --> 23:47.390]  so they started banning people for one year who were caught with one of these devices in their hand.
[23:47.610 --> 24:00.590]  And so that became a badge of honor and people actually put up a spreadsheet on the wall on the main door that was across the street from this mall and people added their names to it as they got banned for a year.
[24:00.710 --> 24:05.250]  And a year is actually perfect because the next year they could go in again.
[24:05.330 --> 24:06.610]  The next conference is a year for...
[24:06.610 --> 24:07.050]  Oh boy.
[24:07.590 --> 24:08.290]  That's beautiful.
[24:08.510 --> 24:13.190]  And that means that that mall has a year-long banning list that they keep track of.
[24:13.310 --> 24:18.010]  I wonder if they're lesser offenses you get six months or maybe a lifetime ban is what you should be shooting for.
[24:18.470 --> 24:28.590]  But the fact of the matter is I think they tried to say that it caused damage to the TV set to turn it off and turn it on basically what happens to it when you turn it off.
[24:28.990 --> 24:37.730]  But it's very easy to protect yourself if you're in a situation where you think these damn kids are going to come and cause all kinds of problems for you.
[24:37.850 --> 24:41.890]  You just cover up the infrared sensor on your TV set, correct?
[24:42.150 --> 24:51.630]  You have to do it well however because if you do it with duct tape or electrical tape that turns out to be only translucent to infrared which is how these remote controls work.
[24:52.810 --> 24:56.650]  So TV Gone Pro will go through electrical tape and duct tape.
[24:57.790 --> 25:02.350]  So if you use aluminum foil and then some tape that would work.
[25:02.750 --> 25:03.230]  Okay.
[25:04.070 --> 25:08.050]  Well you know it's interesting because I know I think Bernie you were instrumental on this.
[25:08.230 --> 25:29.930]  When we had the HOPE conference at the Hotel Pennsylvania not too long ago we actually went around explaining to the people in the hotel lobby the employees there how they could protect their television sets because they have a whole wall of them and we didn't want the entire weekend to be this running battle between the hotel and the hackers of turning TVs off and on so we told them all you got
[25:29.930 --> 25:32.690]  to do is cover this up and you'll be protected right?
[25:32.950 --> 25:51.990]  Well it should have gone that way I was there a few days early because I'm one of the HOPE organizers this was I guess about a couple of hopes ago it was the first year they had all these big flat screen TVs behind the hotel front desk and I explained to them hey this is going to be a big problem you're going to have thousands of hackers descending on this hotel in a couple of days and I don't
[25:51.990 --> 26:12.410]  want them to disrupt your screens back there which did show information related to the hotel too so I showed them I demonstrated to them how my TV began on my keychain turned off their TVs I said, now listen, you need to put two or three layers of electrical tape over all the infrared windows on these TV sets or you're going to have a serious problem.
[26:12.550 --> 26:17.250]  And I talked to the main guy behind the desk and I assured them that this is going to be a problem.
[26:17.390 --> 26:18.450]  Please take care of this.
[26:18.770 --> 26:25.170]  And then a couple days later when the start conference game started, the security staff started running up to me.
[26:25.190 --> 26:29.110]  Our own internal security, I hope, said, oh, the hotel management's really upset.
[26:29.110 --> 26:30.830]  All the TVs at the front desk are going off.
[26:30.910 --> 26:31.410]  I went down there.
[26:31.510 --> 26:32.970]  They didn't cover any of them up.
[26:32.970 --> 26:34.450]  I said, look, I warned you.
[26:34.570 --> 26:35.530]  Why didn't you do this?
[26:35.810 --> 26:37.090]  Then they covered up them.
[26:37.330 --> 26:40.690]  So sometimes you just can't get people to listen.
[26:40.830 --> 26:41.710]  You've got to listen to hackers.
[26:41.830 --> 26:43.250]  When hackers say something, you've got to listen.
[26:43.410 --> 26:44.370]  Most of the time it makes sense.
[26:44.510 --> 26:51.710]  Yeah, I don't know if they explained this to you, but the fact is that it's a union hotel and they had to get the union electrician in order to apply that tape.
[26:52.010 --> 26:52.890]  Oh, my goodness.
[26:53.630 --> 26:57.790]  All right, listen, I'm not sure how many of these we gave away so far.
[26:57.950 --> 27:01.350]  I think we had about five calls come in and we have open phone lines now.
[27:01.350 --> 27:12.570]  So this may be your only chance to get this amazing brand new TV Begon that has expanded range, new codes, because new TV sets are always coming out and they have new codes.
[27:12.750 --> 27:22.250]  It's kind of a battle between some of the electronics manufacturers and, I guess, Mitch, as far as figuring out what the code is to turn off various television sets.
[27:22.250 --> 27:27.330]  So this is your chance to get in on the ground floor, I guess, of this brand new model.
[27:27.470 --> 27:28.390]  Remember, 100 meters.
[27:28.550 --> 27:38.930]  I don't know if people can appreciate how far away 100 meters is, but I know one of the older models that is basically probably has less of a range than this one.
[27:38.930 --> 27:53.750]  And we were going uptown on the M15, which is a bus, and pressing the button as we were passing various bars on First Avenue, and the TVs were just turning off one after the other.
[27:53.870 --> 27:55.810]  It was like being a god almost.
[27:55.810 --> 27:57.910]  It was the most incredible feeling.
[27:58.290 --> 28:07.810]  And I think one of the improvements in this new model, which has not yet come out, it's not yet available anywhere, one of the improvements is battery life.
[28:07.810 --> 28:08.390]  Is that right, Mitch?
[28:08.930 --> 28:15.630]  Yeah, so this one has a really large battery inside that's rechargeable, and it comes with a recharger.
[28:16.190 --> 28:20.950]  And it comes with, you know, they're not released yet, like you said.
[28:21.450 --> 28:36.550]  I'm still working on... I have a bunch of prototypes, and they work perfectly, and these are ones that will be mass-produced, and those are the ones that are going to go to you folks who pledge 125 or more to this incredible radio show on this incredible community radio station.
[28:36.550 --> 28:38.770]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[28:38.950 --> 28:41.530]  We still have open lines, and I think we only have five of these left.
[28:41.670 --> 28:43.910]  Budget 125, you get the brand new TV.
[28:44.070 --> 28:46.030]  Be gone with a range of 100 meters.
[28:46.610 --> 28:54.650]  And what's really cool, and we always had a problem with this in the past, you don't need a different version overseas from here in the United States anymore.
[28:54.650 --> 28:55.930]  You just need to throw the switch.
[28:55.930 --> 29:01.870]  And I guess when you charge a thing, you need the converter for the AC, but that's...
[29:01.870 --> 29:08.750]  Yeah, actually not even a converter, just a converter plug, because the recharger works anywhere for any voltage anywhere in the world.
[29:08.890 --> 29:09.090]  Right.
[29:09.230 --> 29:15.490]  And I have two different styles of plugs, one for the European Type-C and one for the regular American Type-A.
[29:15.490 --> 29:18.890]  Okay, I see two calls on the line, 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[29:19.090 --> 29:20.950]  So we might only have three of these left.
[29:21.710 --> 29:26.090]  So if you want to take advantage of this, now is the time to call.
[29:26.310 --> 29:29.570]  We might not have this in the next five minutes if you don't give a call now.
[29:29.930 --> 29:32.390]  You want me to take Visa, MasterCard, all those credit card things.
[29:33.550 --> 29:41.930]  Keep in mind, though, the reason why we're doing this, the reason why Mitch has been generous enough to donate this and so many other things over the years is because WBAI is a treasure.
[29:41.930 --> 29:50.950]  It's one of these places that exists despite the odds, has existed since the year 1960, and hopefully with your help will continue to exist.
[29:51.050 --> 29:52.430]  We can talk about things like this.
[29:52.490 --> 30:08.190]  We can talk about ways to subvert technology, to take control of technology, to battle various corporations and laws and governments and things like that, and also to innovate, to invent new things, to expand our minds, to be creative.
[30:08.870 --> 30:12.950]  If you look around on the commercial band, you're not going to find any of that, really.
[30:12.950 --> 30:16.170]  You're not going to find any of that because it doesn't sell products.
[30:16.330 --> 30:19.450]  And that's really what every broadcast medium is about, selling products.
[30:19.950 --> 30:21.770]  And we're not about that.
[30:21.910 --> 30:23.710]  You're the investors in this radio station.
[30:23.850 --> 30:24.570]  You're the sponsors.
[30:24.690 --> 30:25.890]  You're the people that make it possible.
[30:26.030 --> 30:32.050]  And see how different it is when it's up to people instead of companies simply trying to sell you things.
[30:32.050 --> 30:34.010]  You wind up with conversations.
[30:34.450 --> 30:38.510]  I mean, this is not the kind of radio station that you have on in the background in a supermarket.
[30:38.750 --> 30:39.110]  Why?
[30:39.410 --> 30:47.410]  Well, because people tend to listen to what we're saying, not simply have us on so that it can sound pleasant in an elevator or something like that.
[30:47.470 --> 30:48.770]  I mean, we sound pleasant in an elevator.
[30:48.770 --> 30:50.410]  I know we sound pleasant in taxi cabs.
[30:50.510 --> 30:52.310]  We're being broadcast right now in a lot of them.
[30:52.570 --> 30:59.790]  But the fact is, when you're in a taxi cab, you kind of want to listen to what's being said on the radio.
[30:59.790 --> 31:04.070]  Sometimes people don't even get out of the taxi when they arrive at their destination because they're listening to our show.
[31:04.230 --> 31:05.650]  And this has been a problem, actually.
[31:05.870 --> 31:08.270]  So people wind up paying a lot more in fares.
[31:08.310 --> 31:08.950]  But it's worth it.
[31:09.050 --> 31:12.330]  But instead of doing that, why don't you give us a call?
[31:12.470 --> 31:13.150]  Pledge $125.
[31:14.150 --> 31:16.250]  And hopefully there are TV Begons left.
[31:16.390 --> 31:18.230]  212-209-2950.
[31:18.490 --> 31:21.470]  125 gets you the most powerful one yet, the most versatile one yet.
[31:21.870 --> 31:24.990]  And you'll be supporting the radio station and doing a really good thing.
[31:25.130 --> 31:26.010]  You'll feel great doing that.
[31:26.130 --> 31:28.750]  212-209-2950.
[31:29.790 --> 31:31.290]  Anything you want to add?
[31:31.650 --> 31:32.330]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[31:32.950 --> 31:46.790]  And, again, anybody who pledges in right now at 212-209-2950, we'll get a free admission ticket to the Vintage Computer Festival this weekend in Wall, New Jersey, which I've attended several times.
[31:46.930 --> 31:55.470]  It's an awesome hacker event with people bringing computers from the 1970s, earlier than that, from the 60s, 70s, maybe early 80s.
[31:55.470 --> 31:56.790]  It's a lot of fun.
[31:57.890 --> 32:00.110]  We're going to be talking about it a little bit on the show soon.
[32:00.230 --> 32:12.530]  But if you pledge now, 212-209-2950, as a gift for supporting the station, you'll get not only the most modern and high-power TV Begons, but free admission to the Vintage Computer Festival.
[32:13.210 --> 32:13.850]  Go ahead.
[32:14.330 --> 32:14.630]  Go ahead.
[32:15.090 --> 32:16.050]  212-09-2950.
[32:16.230 --> 32:16.450]  All right.
[32:16.790 --> 32:23.830]  And for those of you who are in different parts of the country or the world who say that, well, I'm nowhere near New Jersey, I can't possibly make it there this weekend, that's fine.
[32:23.830 --> 32:24.270]  But you know what?
[32:24.270 --> 32:26.270]  You can give this to anybody you want.
[32:26.310 --> 32:28.150]  Your name will simply be put on a list.
[32:28.850 --> 32:33.530]  And that name will be able to get into that conference this weekend.
[32:33.530 --> 32:39.510]  And if you know somebody else, just give them that information, and they'll be able to get in as a present from you.
[32:40.550 --> 32:46.430]  Just one thing we're offering, one thing that the good folks at the Vintage Computer Fair have offered to us, and we'll be talking to one of them in a little bit.
[32:47.010 --> 32:48.570]  212-209-2950.
[32:48.570 --> 32:56.230]  What I'd like to do now, since I'm not sure if we've given away all of the TV Begons yet, we're going to find out, I want to move into something else.
[32:56.230 --> 32:58.090]  We're offering other things right now.
[32:59.190 --> 33:02.870]  And Greg, I think you'll remember this, as part of the Hope Conference.
[33:03.170 --> 33:07.990]  We are offering, and this was very successful last time we offered it, so we're offering it again.
[33:08.650 --> 33:14.630]  We are offering a Best of DVD compilation from the last three Hopes.
[33:14.990 --> 33:21.330]  Now, those last three Hopes, the most recent one was called The Next Hope, the one before that was called The Last Hope, and the one before that was called Hope No.
[33:21.410 --> 33:21.650]  6.
[33:22.070 --> 33:24.610]  And we have two different packages.
[33:24.610 --> 33:33.290]  We have a package of 20 DVDs for a pledge of $75, and we have a package of 40 DVDs, 4-0 DVDs for $125.
[33:33.750 --> 33:40.510]  And what you'll get in both of those packages is really some of the most well-received talks of those three conferences.
[33:40.750 --> 33:43.590]  And we're talking three different conferences here, not just one, three.
[33:43.970 --> 33:44.610]  One is enough.
[33:45.070 --> 33:54.830]  One certainly, you'll have a lot of quality material here, but with these three, you're going to get all kinds of amazing speakers, and you'll learn a ton.
[33:54.830 --> 34:04.090]  One, what I want to do now is play an excerpt from one of the conferences, and this is by far one of the more popular talks that we offer.
[34:04.810 --> 34:10.610]  This is Steve Rambam, who's a private investigator who's spoken at just about all the conferences that we've ever had.
[34:11.030 --> 34:15.230]  And what's particularly good about this is this particular talk.
[34:15.230 --> 34:19.930]  It counts as one of the DVDs in either the 20 DVD set or the 40 DVD set.
[34:20.370 --> 34:23.610]  It counts as one, one talk, but it's actually three hours long.
[34:23.750 --> 34:32.430]  So you get a couple of DVDs, but you're going to get either 19 more talks or 39 more talks, depending on which package you get.
[34:32.830 --> 34:35.150]  2-1-2, 2-0-9, 2-9-5-0.
[34:35.470 --> 34:39.730]  Again, $75, you'll get a package of 20 DVDs from the last three conferences.
[34:39.730 --> 34:44.950]  For $1.25, you'll get a package of 40 DVDs from the last three conferences.
[34:45.250 --> 35:04.370]  So what I'd like to do now is just play an excerpt from the most recent talk that Steve gave at The Next Hope back in 2010, where he's talking about some things that I think would be very much of interest to our listeners as far as privacy, how your privacy is being threatened,
[35:04.370 --> 35:07.010]  and how maybe you can protect yourself.
[35:07.010 --> 35:16.390]  Yeah, I should set up Steve also, because his bio I think you'd still find on the Hope websites, but he's a professional private investigator, and he's a very serious guy.
[35:16.570 --> 35:23.330]  He's very much a technology-oriented person, but he's a professional private investigator.
[35:23.410 --> 35:25.210]  So he does this stuff for a living, and he's just amazing.
[35:25.210 --> 35:29.250]  He's been featured on CBS News, 60 Minutes, 48 Hours.
[35:29.250 --> 35:33.430]  He's been in the Yorker.
[35:33.630 --> 35:35.450]  This guy is the real thing.
[35:35.590 --> 35:36.050]  Very serious.
[35:36.230 --> 35:44.150]  He's the real McCoy, and we're honored to have him at the conference speaking on these issues, which he knows so much about, and demonstrating right there on stage.
[35:44.370 --> 36:01.570]  The demos are amazing, because what he does is he'll call on people, or he'll get names of the people in the audience or people that they designate, and he'll find stuff about them, that some of it, of course, is through for fee, you know, pay type of services that maybe only private investigators can get legitimate access to.
[36:01.670 --> 36:09.350]  What he talks about here is material that anybody has access to, that is open source, available on the internet, and it's shocking.
[36:09.470 --> 36:12.110]  It's shocking how much information about us is out there.
[36:12.210 --> 36:13.650]  So let's play a little bit of this.
[36:13.810 --> 36:16.230]  Again, the number, 212-209-2950.
[36:16.230 --> 36:27.250]  We may still have some TV Beguns left for $125, but we also are offering the Hope Greatest Hits 20 DVD package for $75.
[36:27.310 --> 36:37.510]  We're offering the 40 DVD package for $125, and everybody who calls and pledges any amount will get a free admission to the Vintage Computer Fair this weekend in Wall, New Jersey.
[36:37.830 --> 36:39.270]  More details on that coming up.
[36:39.490 --> 36:41.490]  212-209-2950.
[36:41.490 --> 36:42.450]  Let's listen to Steve.
[36:43.650 --> 36:49.770]  With any starting point, it is possible to build a complete dossier on someone.
[36:50.630 --> 36:56.450]  Doesn't matter what it is, a social security number, a MAC address, an email address, a license plate.
[36:56.710 --> 37:01.750]  From that information, it's possible to discover everything about someone.
[37:02.110 --> 37:05.490]  Sometimes you can only link one piece of information to another.
[37:05.850 --> 37:08.090]  Sometimes you can grab things wholesale.
[37:08.550 --> 37:11.770]  Before we continue, I'd like to emphasize one thing.
[37:11.770 --> 37:17.290]  Everything that we're going to be discussing today is open source or semi-open source.
[37:17.590 --> 37:27.270]  By semi-open source, I mean available to investigators, available to security professionals, probably available to half or more of the people in this room.
[37:27.510 --> 37:30.090]  We're not going to discuss FinCEN.
[37:31.050 --> 37:32.810]  We're not going to discuss NCIC.
[37:33.310 --> 37:39.690]  We're not going to discuss any governmental databases or anything that is, by definition, exclusive or closed.
[37:39.690 --> 37:46.610]  We are going to discuss what is available easily and quickly on each of... everyone in this room.
[37:48.550 --> 37:53.410]  Primarily, we're going to be discussing the information that you, yourself, contribute.
[37:53.850 --> 38:00.990]  The vast majority of the information that's available out there today is information that you gave up, either knowingly or unknowingly.
[38:01.590 --> 38:13.610]  You surrendered that information, your name, your address, your phone number, your date of birth, your social security number, your photo, which, once upon a time, was the holy grail of investigation.
[38:14.290 --> 38:22.390]  When I started out as an investigator, I would be paid $500 or $1,000 to get somebody's photo so he could be ID'd.
[38:22.390 --> 38:26.150]  Today, all you need is to Google somebody.
[38:27.270 --> 38:38.550]  Information like sexual orientation, politics, finances, activities, business relationships, friends, family, all of that is open source these days.
[38:38.870 --> 38:44.810]  When I started out almost 25 years ago, this was confidential information that you had to hire an investigator for.
[38:45.990 --> 38:47.770]  This is how it used to work.
[38:48.890 --> 38:54.230]  And a lot of what we're going to be discussing today is going to be how much things have changed.
[38:55.110 --> 39:01.750]  Not just how much things have changed since I first started speaking at Hope, but how much they've changed in the past few years.
[39:04.030 --> 39:09.290]  As an investigator, for example, somebody would give me a telephone number.
[39:09.630 --> 39:12.950]  From that telephone number, I would get the name and address.
[39:12.950 --> 39:15.710]  Everybody here knows how to pull a C and A.
[39:15.970 --> 39:19.010]  From there, I'd get date of birth and social security number.
[39:19.250 --> 39:39.610]  From there, addresses, family, place of employment, businesses, real property, marriages, divorces, everything that's public records, criminal records, civil records, other semi-public records of public records, driver's licenses, motor vehicles, and so on and so on.
[39:39.610 --> 39:43.710]  All of that, starting out with one piece of information.
[39:44.210 --> 39:49.490]  Maybe not a telephone number, but an email address, an address, a name and a date of birth.
[39:49.670 --> 39:50.850]  That's how it used to be.
[39:51.170 --> 39:57.090]  You would take an end of a string, you'd start pulling, and by the time you were done, you would have a complete dossier on someone.
[39:57.270 --> 39:59.330]  And by the way, I mean, there's much, much more.
[39:59.330 --> 40:01.770]  I ran out of space on the page.
[40:04.190 --> 40:05.810]  Today, not necessary.
[40:06.030 --> 40:17.470]  Today, you start with a telephone number, you plug in a telephone number, and you immediately get a comprehensive report, or a combo report, or whatever it's called on the system that you're using.
[40:17.470 --> 40:30.870]  I plug in your phone number, and I immediately have your name, address, social security number, date of birth, driver's license, motor vehicles, family, residence history, employment history, and so on and so on.
[40:31.610 --> 40:34.670]  It's no longer necessary to do it piecemeal.
[40:35.130 --> 40:37.190]  Everything is cross-referenced.
[40:37.550 --> 40:41.650]  Everything is available in one glob.
[40:42.610 --> 40:45.850]  Let's talk about what's changed in the past few years.
[40:45.850 --> 40:48.330]  Now, this says what's changed in the past 10 years.
[40:48.610 --> 40:51.350]  Frankly, let's talk about what's changed since the last hope.
[40:51.910 --> 40:55.010]  First of all, computing power and speed.
[40:55.910 --> 41:01.050]  When I started out, I had a Mac with a 128K floppy disk.
[41:01.490 --> 41:07.550]  I had to put in the program, pop it out, save the data, put in the program, pop it out.
[41:08.210 --> 41:13.770]  I mean, now you have four processors, eight, you know, quad core, whatever.
[41:14.390 --> 41:15.650]  Speed is unbelievable.
[41:15.650 --> 41:16.970]  Storage is unbelievable.
[41:17.410 --> 41:23.810]  I routinely buy more RAM than I had in a hard drive.
[41:25.710 --> 41:30.330]  You know, I'm glad to see that people in the front few rows are approximately my age.
[41:30.630 --> 41:37.310]  Sometimes I talk about this to trainees, people in their early 20s who are becoming detectives, becoming federal agents.
[41:37.310 --> 41:40.590]  And a lot of this is like talking about the Stone Age.
[41:43.130 --> 41:47.650]  Storage power, processing power, exponential increases.
[41:48.970 --> 41:52.910]  Department of Homeland Security, who I understand, dropped by yesterday.
[41:52.910 --> 41:58.930]  They save 75 years now of entry and exit in the U.S.
[41:59.090 --> 42:01.850]  They will never throw anything away ever again.
[42:03.310 --> 42:05.550]  Everything is now digital from the get-go.
[42:05.830 --> 42:08.290]  Everything is now digital from the point of inception.
[42:08.290 --> 42:11.530]  Your medical record, keyed in at the nurse's desk.
[42:11.810 --> 42:15.950]  Your travel, it's not a paper handwritten ticket anymore.
[42:16.250 --> 42:19.070]  Your credit card records, immediately.
[42:19.070 --> 42:27.850]  You can, I can have somebody, I can do a charge over the phone, log on to my Visa account and see the charge within 30 seconds.
[42:28.110 --> 42:29.890]  Everything is immediately digital.
[42:30.110 --> 42:33.410]  And it goes into the databases just as quickly.
[42:34.010 --> 42:38.970]  No keying time, more important, because this is all about money, as you're going to see.
[42:39.130 --> 42:40.630]  No keying costs.
[42:41.070 --> 42:45.730]  Your information is digital from point zero, and it's in the databases immediately.
[42:46.870 --> 42:48.710]  Let's talk about old stuff.
[42:49.710 --> 42:51.550]  OCR sucks in everything.
[42:52.210 --> 43:04.470]  Google Books, newspapers, documents from 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 100 years ago, are fed into high-speed sheet-reading scanners.
[43:05.210 --> 43:09.030]  An entire book can be done in an hour, and pretty accurately.
[43:10.750 --> 43:11.630]  Cell phones.
[43:11.750 --> 43:13.890]  We're going to talk a lot about cell phones today.
[43:14.430 --> 43:18.610]  Cell phones are one of the three big game changers we're going to talk about.
[43:19.510 --> 43:21.770]  Everybody here carries a cell phone.
[43:22.210 --> 43:27.090]  Everybody here, without me checking, carries a smartphone.
[43:27.410 --> 43:28.770]  Very few people don't.
[43:29.410 --> 43:41.770]  Because you carry these items, and you use these items, and you never turn them off, or you can't turn them off, I know everything there is to know about you, and we're going to cover this in great detail.
[43:42.050 --> 43:44.810]  Cell phones are a huge game-changer.
[43:45.270 --> 44:01.530]  Routine cross-referencing, name translation, similars, artificial intelligence scripts, it's not just, here's an address history database, here's a telephone history database, here's a purchasing history database.
[44:02.150 --> 44:07.610]  Immediately, these things are cross-referenced, and linked by every possible link.
[44:07.950 --> 44:14.330]  I can put in your phone number, and have your credit card charges for the next month, for the last month, rather.
[44:14.330 --> 44:18.030]  I can put in your phone number, next month would be cooler, I know.
[44:19.950 --> 44:26.850]  I can put in your telephone number, and from your telephone number, have all of your email addresses.
[44:26.850 --> 44:37.810]  And that's unheard of, that was unheard of a year ago, I can put in your email address, and have your name, your address, your telephone number, and all of that.
[44:38.110 --> 44:50.170]  Now, by the way, just let me digress and say one thing, last year, after the talk, we hung out in the room, and spoke, and unfortunately screwed the following speaker.
[44:51.230 --> 45:07.750]  He got about five minutes, instead of one hour, we are going to finish on time today, I hope, but more important than that, Emmanuel and the crew have given us a table, we are going to leave here, go to a table, one of the things that we're going to do,
[45:07.910 --> 45:20.370]  other than answer any follow-up questions that we didn't have time for during the Q&A, is I'm going to let anybody who wants to come over and play with all of our investigative databases, not just the stuff, but, oh, yeah.
[45:25.070 --> 45:32.450]  Listen, as I'm going to be discussing in great detail over the next couple hours, I'm a great believer in openness.
[45:32.770 --> 45:36.690]  I'm a great believer in PI FOIA.
[45:37.210 --> 45:40.550]  There is nothing that I do that I'm ashamed of.
[45:40.830 --> 45:44.510]  I think that I make the world a better place, a more just place.
[45:44.650 --> 45:46.230]  I know these folks here do.
[45:47.230 --> 45:51.150]  It's not like you see on TV, peeping in keyholes and all of that.
[45:51.950 --> 45:54.930]  And I want you guys to know and understand what we do.
[45:57.630 --> 46:02.990]  As far as cross-referencing and mashups and all of that, let me give you one ridiculous example.
[46:03.250 --> 46:05.390]  I call this comp stat for drunks.
[46:06.710 --> 46:09.730]  There's something in DC called Stumble Safely.
[46:10.430 --> 46:24.130]  A guy took the entire past couple of years of crime reports and he took the list of all the bars in the downtown area of DC and he just put them together.
[46:24.130 --> 46:29.710]  Took him about one evening of programming and he put up a thing called Stumble Safely.
[46:30.050 --> 46:37.170]  You can check a bar and see how many muggings in the area, how many robberies, how many assaults, how many shootings.
[46:37.170 --> 46:40.330]  You can determine is that a safe place to get drunk.
[46:40.610 --> 46:43.790]  Now, for me, this is a hilarious thing.
[46:43.930 --> 46:44.750]  You can check it out.
[46:45.110 --> 46:46.310]  StumbleSafely.com.
[46:47.170 --> 46:57.790]  This sort of thing ten years ago, five years ago, three years ago would have required a skilled programmer, would have required massive outlays for data.
[46:58.650 --> 47:00.650]  A trained monkey can do this now.
[47:00.810 --> 47:02.610]  And I know because some of them work for me.
[47:03.330 --> 47:04.570]  No, no, just kidding.
[47:05.590 --> 47:06.830]  What else has changed?
[47:07.530 --> 47:10.090]  GPS and the ability to track you.
[47:10.430 --> 47:14.450]  Listen, your cell phone is glued to your ass 24-7.
[47:15.110 --> 47:18.530]  Because your cell phone is with you, I know where you are.
[47:18.670 --> 47:20.510]  And we're going to go into that in great detail.
[47:20.510 --> 47:29.690]  GPS, Skyhook, people going around, Google Skyhook going around, and mapping every Wi-Fi node in North America.
[47:29.850 --> 47:31.050]  Every single node.
[47:33.890 --> 47:46.570]  Creation of new searching and new indexing, including translation, including voice-to-text, including video-to-text, which I'm going to show you, which I find spooky.
[47:47.310 --> 47:51.830]  And last but by no means not least, one of the other game-changers we're going to talk about.
[47:53.070 --> 48:00.710]  Intelligent cameras with onboard analytics, onboard facial recognition, attached to massive high-speed databases.
[48:01.010 --> 48:13.550]  Now, I know that earlier today there were, or over the past 24 hours, there have been talks here saying, yeah, you can hide from facial recognition databases, and you can opt out, and you can do this, and you...
[48:13.550 --> 48:14.250]  No, you can't.
[48:14.790 --> 48:15.690]  No, you can't.
[48:16.110 --> 48:17.010]  You can't.
[48:17.150 --> 48:17.430]  Period.
[48:17.670 --> 48:18.490]  I'm going to show you.
[48:18.490 --> 48:29.750]  I have great respect for the speaker that was talking earlier today about facial recognition, and how you can dodge the governmental databases and the DL databases.
[48:30.110 --> 48:31.050]  You can't.
[48:31.230 --> 48:32.690]  You absolutely can't.
[48:32.930 --> 48:34.070]  I'm an investigator.
[48:34.070 --> 48:35.870]  I've been doing this for 25 years.
[48:36.190 --> 48:37.830]  I do a lot of work with law enforcement.
[48:37.990 --> 48:42.990]  These guys are formal law enforcement and special agents and state cops, and they're PIs forever.
[48:43.530 --> 48:45.090]  You can ask us all about it.
[48:45.270 --> 48:45.930]  You can't.
[48:46.970 --> 48:50.610]  Another thing is ridiculously accurate precision target marketing.
[48:52.010 --> 48:57.890]  The name of the game here, guys, is not that there's people out there that are big brother that want to invade your privacy.
[48:58.330 --> 48:59.550]  They want to sell you stuff.
[48:59.950 --> 49:01.470]  This is all about money.
[49:01.690 --> 49:03.030]  It's not nefarious.
[49:03.170 --> 49:03.990]  It's not sinister.
[49:03.990 --> 49:07.130]  This is all an attempted engine of capitalism.
[49:07.330 --> 49:07.710]  That's it.
[49:07.970 --> 49:09.270]  They want to sell you stuff.
[49:09.470 --> 49:13.750]  They want to know everything about you so they can sell you stuff.
[49:14.210 --> 49:18.110]  And it results in you each getting a digital proctology exam.
[49:18.990 --> 49:20.750]  There's no escape from it.
[49:20.850 --> 49:22.570]  But it's not a sinister motive.
[49:22.790 --> 49:24.190]  They want to sell you stuff.
[49:24.370 --> 49:26.870]  They want to own your eyeballs.
[49:27.910 --> 49:29.890]  We're going to talk about augmented reality.
[49:30.210 --> 49:35.030]  We're going to talk about it a little bit with actual augmented reality.
[49:35.130 --> 49:39.230]  But we're going to talk about other things, like Google Goggles.
[49:39.330 --> 49:40.750]  I don't know how many of you are familiar with that.
[49:40.850 --> 49:41.850]  We're going to talk about that.
[49:42.630 --> 49:45.630]  Everybody wants to know what your cell phone sees.
[49:45.630 --> 49:54.990]  So they're encouraging you to use it for things like barcode scanning, visual recognition of things like paintings, and augmented reality.
[49:55.170 --> 50:13.410]  They want to know that you're in New York, and you're at the Empire State Building, not just from OCR, and not just from your purchases, and not just from you buying a ticket through your cell phone, but because you've taken a photo of a building, and you've used augmented reality to ID that building.
[50:13.410 --> 50:16.470]  And again, it's all about money.
[50:18.810 --> 50:20.330]  Data storage costs.
[50:20.850 --> 50:23.090]  Somebody sent this to me about two months ago.
[50:23.430 --> 50:25.670]  This is a no-lie ad.
[50:26.010 --> 50:27.630]  I don't know if you can see this.
[50:28.690 --> 50:33.070]  $3,400 for a 10-meg drive.
[50:35.850 --> 50:37.910]  This is in my lifetime, folks.
[50:37.910 --> 50:47.770]  I can go down to the lowest form of life, a Staples tech salesman.
[50:48.810 --> 50:52.810]  And I can say, give me your biggest disk.
[50:53.690 --> 50:59.230]  And for $160, I can walk out of there with a two-terabyte disk.
[50:59.230 --> 51:07.970]  I can tell you, when I started as an investigator, there wasn't two terabytes of investigative data in the country.
[51:08.090 --> 51:09.070]  That's a fact.
[51:11.310 --> 51:17.350]  This was the reality, not just when I started, but well into my career.
[51:17.350 --> 51:26.610]  The main thing that's changed, one of the main things that's changed, there's no erasing, there's no deleting, there's no forgetting.
[51:27.090 --> 51:43.150]  Everything you've ever done, every stupid photo, every ranting, troll-like blog post, every drunken text message, everything, is saved forever.
[51:43.710 --> 51:44.190]  Forever.
[51:45.190 --> 51:52.450]  It's saved, and it's not just saved, it's indexed, and it's cross-referenced, and it's tied to your name forever.
[51:53.010 --> 51:53.970]  You don't believe it?
[51:54.050 --> 51:55.810]  Come by the table later, and I'll show you.
[51:56.930 --> 51:57.450]  Wow.
[51:57.790 --> 51:58.070]  Okay.
[51:58.070 --> 52:02.530]  That's an excerpt from the Next Hope conference we had last year.
[52:02.750 --> 52:10.030]  Steve Rombon, private investigator, giving just a guideline of the things that his three-hour talk is going to cover in great detail.
[52:10.590 --> 52:21.610]  And I'll tell you, Greg, I was just blown away by the thoroughness of it all, how so much of our lives are just being saved and documented and cross-referenced.
[52:21.610 --> 52:28.550]  And I got to say, you know, Steve has one perspective on this, where it's just for sales, it's not that nefarious.
[52:28.630 --> 52:30.610]  I think it can be nefarious if it's not already.
[52:30.890 --> 52:31.210]  Oh, absolutely.
[52:31.230 --> 52:44.310]  I mean, so, you know, the sales absolutely, you know, there's no doubt that if AT&T could make more money, you know, getting you to sell ads, you know, and essentially be targeted by ads, they would do that instead of paying $90 for your iPhone subscription.
[52:44.310 --> 52:48.070]  Also, the things that governments can do with this information, or just evil people in general.
[52:48.210 --> 52:50.150]  I'll tell you, the dollar figures are even better.
[52:50.150 --> 53:00.210]  You look at Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, these companies that are doing the massive data analytics, the data processing collection, your IBMs, places like that.
[53:00.790 --> 53:02.790]  Actually, there's bigger money probably on that side.
[53:02.850 --> 53:06.630]  This is just one talk that we're offering in the package tonight.
[53:06.790 --> 53:15.030]  This is a three-hour talk, and there are 19 others that you can get for a $75 pledge, and they are all riveting.
[53:15.030 --> 53:22.970]  They are all amazing talks from the most recent Hackers on Planet Earth conferences that took place in 2010, 2008, and 2006.
[53:23.710 --> 53:28.210]  For a pledge of $125, you'll get 40 of the best talks from those three conferences.
[53:28.970 --> 53:32.110]  But you've got to give a call now, 212-209-2950.
[53:32.110 --> 53:36.410]  We're over the 1,000 mark, which I'm thrilled about, and we're on for two hours tonight.
[53:36.410 --> 53:43.310]  But we need to double that number at the very least in order to get to where we need to be, 212-209-2950.
[53:43.310 --> 53:49.690]  I think this talk, in and of itself, is worthy of people calling in.
[53:49.830 --> 53:59.810]  But when you consider that you get 19 others for the $75 level, and you get 39 others for the $125 level, it's the deal of the week, I think, almost any place.
[54:00.190 --> 54:02.250]  212-209-2950.
[54:02.650 --> 54:04.090]  We have open phone lines.
[54:04.150 --> 54:06.250]  And Bernie, I know that you know how to fix that, right?
[54:06.250 --> 54:07.670]  Well, I hope so.
[54:07.870 --> 54:13.930]  I was just going to say, I wish we could have listened to all three hours of Steve Rambam on this show tonight.
[54:14.110 --> 54:16.810]  But we have limited air time, although we are on for two hours tonight.
[54:17.130 --> 54:27.110]  But I just want to remind our listeners that Steve went on during that next three hours of his talk to demonstrate how you can easily do this stuff that he was describing.
[54:27.290 --> 54:31.290]  He goes into great detail, and you can watch this on a DVD.
[54:31.610 --> 54:33.850]  It's a tutorial how to do this stuff.
[54:33.850 --> 54:34.730]  But that's not all.
[54:34.910 --> 54:43.090]  There's dozens of examples of this kind of information on this DVD set you can call.
[54:43.270 --> 54:58.010]  And that's just what you're giving to everyone calling as a gift for supporting this radio station, which is the only station in New York or really in a country that really talks about these issues at length and how you can find out what's being done with your personal information,
[54:58.670 --> 55:04.770]  how you can protect yourself from it the best you can, and how to take advantage of what this technology offers.
[55:05.010 --> 55:07.030]  212-209-2950.
[55:07.630 --> 55:11.370]  Call and pledge any level of support to this radio station, WBAI.
[55:11.490 --> 55:12.870]  You're not going to hear it anywhere else.
[55:12.970 --> 55:18.710]  We know you like listening to this show that it has great value to you, or you wouldn't be listening to us right now.
[55:18.890 --> 55:20.550]  Join the three callers on the line.
[55:20.550 --> 55:21.310]  Good job, Ernie.
[55:21.410 --> 55:22.110]  You got three calls in.
[55:22.230 --> 55:23.950]  212-209-2950.
[55:24.450 --> 55:27.330]  And remember, what we're playing here, it's audio.
[55:27.950 --> 55:32.050]  You don't see the video on the radio, but you do see the video when you get the DVDs.
[55:33.870 --> 55:34.670]  Great information.
[55:34.870 --> 55:37.490]  212-209-2950.
[55:37.710 --> 55:43.790]  Support this radio station that brings you this kind of information because you're not going to get it at any other radio station you listen to, frankly.
[55:44.190 --> 55:53.050]  We've had some really popular return speakers over the years at the HOPE conferences, and I'm sure some of those are represented, the popular folks come back.
[55:53.050 --> 56:03.150]  I'm always impressed also, though, by the first-timers because often you have people that have spent certainly weeks, maybe months, maybe years putting together content, and they just come and share it.
[56:03.210 --> 56:04.050]  They give away their knowledge.
[56:04.270 --> 56:05.670]  That's what we try to do with the conferences.
[56:05.670 --> 56:17.050]  We try to blend it, people who are brand new, kids, people who have never talked to an audience before, and those polished people who do this professionally, who go around the world talking to audiences.
[56:17.050 --> 56:22.490]  And some of them, you know, quite distinguished audiences, but they always want to talk to the hackers as well.
[56:22.670 --> 56:29.070]  And they're always out there being very open and honest with their assessment of technology and how people can get control of it.
[56:29.190 --> 56:30.450]  And that's the magic of it.
[56:30.470 --> 56:32.390]  And I think it's encompassed in Steve's talks.
[56:32.730 --> 56:46.750]  And I'll tell you this, those of you who are fans of this kind of thing, if you pledge for the 125 level, the 40 DVDs, you'll get every single one of Steve's talks at the last three conferences, including the one where he was arrested in 2006.
[56:47.530 --> 56:49.310]  That's a big story in and of itself.
[56:50.090 --> 56:51.670]  212-209-2950.
[56:51.890 --> 56:55.470]  Considering that his talks generally go for three hours, that's a great deal right there.
[56:55.510 --> 56:56.810]  You're getting a lot of video.
[56:57.330 --> 57:01.830]  We say 40 talks, but you're getting a lot more than 40 hours.
[57:02.130 --> 57:03.190]  You're getting a lot more than that.
[57:03.330 --> 57:05.410]  212-209-2950.
[57:05.950 --> 57:09.130]  Again, pledge for $75 for the 20 DVD set.
[57:10.030 --> 57:12.370]  125 for the 40 DVD set.
[57:12.510 --> 57:14.370]  212-209-2950.
[57:14.690 --> 57:17.150]  We have, oh, six calls on the line.
[57:17.330 --> 57:19.390]  And Voltaire, I think they're going to need your help back down there.
[57:19.890 --> 57:21.030]  You came over here.
[57:21.190 --> 57:22.590]  Things are pretty hectic down there, aren't they?
[57:22.750 --> 57:23.370]  In the tally room.
[57:23.870 --> 57:24.110]  All right.
[57:24.170 --> 57:25.750]  Well, I guess we should run down the hall then.
[57:25.970 --> 57:26.590]  Don't hurt anybody.
[57:27.770 --> 57:28.390]  This is good.
[57:28.510 --> 57:30.850]  When we have to send people down the hall, that's always a good thing.
[57:30.990 --> 57:31.650]  We have operators.
[57:31.950 --> 57:33.470]  Operators are standing by to take your call.
[57:33.470 --> 57:35.390]  Operators are running down the hall, too, and take your call.
[57:35.650 --> 57:43.410]  And they are able to take it at the different levels and keep track of the premiums and also sign you up for the vintage computer.
[57:43.710 --> 57:44.250]  That's right.
[57:44.370 --> 57:45.010]  And that's another thing.
[57:45.130 --> 57:47.690]  Everybody who calls in, pledges any amount, gets a free ticket.
[57:47.970 --> 57:52.150]  Their name will be on the list, the Vintage Computer Festival.
[57:52.750 --> 57:53.650]  I keep saying it wrong.
[57:53.730 --> 57:54.910]  I keep saying fair and festival.
[57:55.090 --> 57:57.790]  I had the same problem with the Trenton computer, whichever one that was.
[57:58.350 --> 58:00.230]  But this one is in Wall, New Jersey.
[58:00.310 --> 58:02.330]  In just a moment, we're going to be speaking at one of the organizers there.
[58:02.930 --> 58:10.990]  And again, if you're not in the area, you can certainly give your name to somebody else and they can show up and have fun and learn things about computers as well.
[58:11.190 --> 58:14.290]  That's just an extra thing we're throwing in just to sweeten the pot a bit.
[58:14.450 --> 58:21.210]  But the real reason to call is to support the radio station, keep us going, so we can have programs like this for many years.
[58:21.210 --> 58:28.630]  And, you know, I got to say, there probably wouldn't be hope conferences were it not for the amazing response that we get from people by being on the radio.
[58:28.630 --> 58:30.650]  That sort of serves as a barometer.
[58:30.850 --> 58:39.250]  While this kind of thing is receptive, this is something that audiences are interested in, and it's just a great way of reaching out to people throughout the world.
[58:39.250 --> 58:52.390]  And that's the magic of radio which you're investing in by calling 212-209-2950, pledging whatever you can, getting the DVD packages, either 20 or 40, and just supporting one of the best radio stations around.
[58:52.390 --> 58:59.830]  It's really an opportunity to sort of vote with your pocketbook or vote with your wallet and show the support for what you do like.
[58:59.830 --> 59:03.430]  And we see this also with the Hacker Conferences, as a matter of fact.
[59:03.490 --> 59:04.850]  And I'm just always amazed at that.
[59:04.970 --> 59:12.690]  We see people like Rambam and many other people up on the stage, and they're incredible experts, as we were just saying, but they're also usually very modest.
[59:12.710 --> 59:20.830]  They say, well, I don't know everything, and I really respect the audience, and I'm here to help you, but I'm also here to learn from you.
[59:20.830 --> 59:23.990]  And the thing that's always amazing to me is that it's open.
[59:24.530 --> 59:39.830]  These conferences are open to people with ideas, and in this sort of meritocracy-driven attitude that we have, every year there are new people, people that we haven't heard of, that are stepping up and presenting their own interests, their own findings to the group.
[59:40.570 --> 59:42.050]  So that's another way of getting involved.
[59:42.330 --> 59:44.970]  And we're not even talking about the magazine.
[59:45.130 --> 59:47.470]  I mean, people send articles in as well, the same thing.
[59:47.610 --> 59:50.650]  I'm just always so impressed by the incredible skill level we have.
[59:51.410 --> 59:52.170]  I've got to tell you something.
[59:52.470 --> 01:00:02.890]  Since the magazine has gone online, meaning available on various devices like Kindle and Nook, we've received so many more people interested in being a part of it.
[01:00:02.990 --> 01:00:04.490]  We've received a lot more article submissions.
[01:00:05.010 --> 01:00:14.210]  And I think it shows that when technology changes, you need to dive right in and be a part of it, and start shaping it yourself, and not be afraid.
[01:00:14.430 --> 01:00:16.870]  And this is something that I think the big companies don't get yet.
[01:00:16.870 --> 01:00:18.090]  And it's because they don't listen.
[01:00:18.210 --> 01:00:22.810]  They don't come to the hacker conferences and hear what people are saying and be a part of the innovation.
[01:00:23.350 --> 01:00:25.450]  It's a magical time for so many people.
[01:00:25.450 --> 01:00:29.970]  And you can really become a part of that magic by looking at these DVDs.
[01:00:30.590 --> 01:00:34.830]  20 DVDs for a pledge of $75, 40 for a pledge of $125.
[01:00:35.090 --> 01:00:35.670]  And actually, you know what?
[01:00:35.670 --> 01:00:37.910]  That's not entirely correct because you're getting more than 20.
[01:00:37.910 --> 01:00:38.910]  You're getting more than 40.
[01:00:38.910 --> 01:00:42.550]  You're getting 20 talks and 40 talks, respectively.
[01:00:42.890 --> 01:00:44.730]  But some talks are more than one DVD.
[01:00:45.030 --> 01:00:46.450]  So you're getting a lot of material.
[01:00:46.830 --> 01:00:52.070]  And it's what we consider to be the most popular, the most educational.
[01:00:52.790 --> 01:00:57.770]  Join the five callers on the line, 212-209-2950.
[01:00:58.270 --> 01:01:02.610]  Show your support to WBAI and be a part of the magic.
[01:01:02.610 --> 01:01:10.410]  And also, those of you who pledge will get your name on the list for the Vintage Computer Festival.
[01:01:10.570 --> 01:01:17.310]  Now, we also have, joining us on the line right now, Bill Degnan, I believe is how you pronounce this name, right?
[01:01:17.670 --> 01:01:19.430]  From the Vintage Computer Festival.
[01:01:19.570 --> 01:01:20.130]  Bill, are you with us?
[01:01:20.370 --> 01:01:21.590]  Yes, I am.
[01:01:21.630 --> 01:01:22.190]  That is correct.
[01:01:22.190 --> 01:01:22.790]  Bill Degnan.
[01:01:23.130 --> 01:01:23.490]  Great.
[01:01:23.910 --> 01:01:27.610]  Now, tell us something about this computer festival.
[01:01:27.710 --> 01:01:30.970]  I understand that this has been going on for how many years?
[01:01:31.590 --> 01:01:37.210]  Well, this is the seventh one, but it's actually been going on on the West Coast even before that, in the late 90s.
[01:01:37.490 --> 01:01:48.410]  So this is the seventh East Coast fair, but there have been fairs in Munich and England and then out in California and then, of course, in Wall, New Jersey.
[01:01:48.830 --> 01:01:49.850]  Wall, New Jersey.
[01:01:50.050 --> 01:01:50.650]  Where the festival east is.
[01:01:50.710 --> 01:01:52.730]  And it was in Boston, I think, a few times ago.
[01:01:52.730 --> 01:01:53.050]  Uh-huh.
[01:01:54.310 --> 01:01:55.110]  That's amazing.
[01:01:55.110 --> 01:01:57.550]  Now, what kinds of things can people expect to see?
[01:01:57.550 --> 01:02:01.370]  Well, we've got a number of very exciting things.
[01:02:01.670 --> 01:02:13.330]  We have 23 exhibitors who are going to be bringing their carefully crafted and hacked vintage computers to display for the public to see.
[01:02:13.470 --> 01:02:17.710]  And they'll be in action where you can sit down and actually, in most cases, use them.
[01:02:17.710 --> 01:02:22.710]  They'll be everything from, uh, Apple One replicas, Commodore 64s.
[01:02:23.050 --> 01:02:29.090]  We're going to be rebuilding an IBM 1130, uh, system or computer printer and whatnot.
[01:02:29.290 --> 01:02:31.690]  And, uh, we've got, uh, PDP-8.
[01:02:31.990 --> 01:02:32.890]  Uh, it goes on and on.
[01:02:33.590 --> 01:02:34.090]  Wow.
[01:02:34.170 --> 01:02:35.030]  That's, that's incredible.
[01:02:35.350 --> 01:02:36.730]  And that's just one, one thing.
[01:02:36.810 --> 01:02:44.290]  There's also, uh, you've got, uh, speakers and we've got workshops where you can actually sit down and work on computers or transistors and so forth.
[01:02:45.230 --> 01:02:52.030]  Now, of course, you guys also, uh, um, show up at the HOPE conferences and I think you get, uh, quite a good, uh, response from the people there, right?
[01:02:52.510 --> 01:02:53.410]  Right, right, yes.
[01:02:53.550 --> 01:02:57.970]  We, uh, we've been, we've been doing exhibits for the past, I think, three, uh, HOPE conferences.
[01:02:58.430 --> 01:02:58.770]  Uh-huh.
[01:02:59.050 --> 01:03:12.030]  Yeah, it's, it's something, I, I've met so many hackers who, uh, they're into the newest thing, they're into all the innovation, but they're also into the history, into the, um, uh, the old computers, into seeing how things work, how things were put together once.
[01:03:12.030 --> 01:03:19.110]  I don't know if you heard in the most recent talk, but, uh, Steve Rambaugh made reference to a 10 megabyte hard drive going for, I think, $3,400.
[01:03:19.730 --> 01:03:21.310]  Things like this fascinate people.
[01:03:21.450 --> 01:03:29.590]  Being able to look at, at these huge devices that were brand new back then and, and the cutting edge of technology and just seeing how far we've come.
[01:03:29.590 --> 01:03:33.290]  Um, but in a sense, we've also kind of, we've lost some of the magic.
[01:03:33.330 --> 01:03:43.430]  Because I remember those days when, when big hard drives were considered 10 megs and it really seemed like, uh, like some kind of, uh, alien device that no one had ever used before.
[01:03:43.430 --> 01:03:46.390]  And I think maybe now we sort of take things for granted.
[01:03:47.230 --> 01:03:48.550]  Well, I think that's very true.
[01:03:48.730 --> 01:03:53.610]  I mean, I, I am a, uh, you know, I work in a modern computer world during the day and at night.
[01:03:53.650 --> 01:04:00.730]  And in my spare time, I like to work on the old computers because you can get your hands on them in the same way that you can get your hands on an old car.
[01:04:00.730 --> 01:04:08.510]  Working on an old Volkswagen engine is something that you can actually, you know, turn the, turn the, uh, the wrench and actually make adjustments.
[01:04:08.710 --> 01:04:11.770]  Whereas with a modern car, uh, there's not a lot you can do with it.
[01:04:11.870 --> 01:04:14.790]  You just have to take it into the shop and let them plug it into a computer.
[01:04:14.990 --> 01:04:17.670]  You know, Bill, don't even get me started on, on, on today's cars.
[01:04:17.670 --> 01:04:19.970]  I have a, a smart car, which is not so smart.
[01:04:20.010 --> 01:04:23.770]  And, uh, every time something goes wrong with it, I can only take it to one place in Canada.
[01:04:24.170 --> 01:04:27.210]  Uh, right now I have a problem with, with, with the remote control on the key.
[01:04:27.210 --> 01:04:30.990]  And the only people who can sync it again to the car are in Canada.
[01:04:30.990 --> 01:04:35.130]  So I really have to travel hundreds of miles just to fix something relatively minor.
[01:04:35.250 --> 01:04:36.510]  So yeah, that's totally true.
[01:04:36.510 --> 01:04:38.370]  What, uh, what has happened with today's technology.
[01:04:38.730 --> 01:04:39.130]  Right.
[01:04:39.190 --> 01:04:39.670]  And it's fun.
[01:04:39.830 --> 01:04:48.670]  It's fun to work on computers where you can actually get in there and solder on the board and fix things or, or make adjustments, uh, because you can see the circuit board a little bit better.
[01:04:48.870 --> 01:04:53.430]  There's not, there's not as much micro circuitry and a surface mount, uh, part.
[01:04:53.430 --> 01:05:04.190]  So you can actually replace a voltage regulator or, or, or, or upgrade a crystal and get some faster communications because you can, with a magnifying glass at the most, see what you're actually working on.
[01:05:04.750 --> 01:05:05.390]  Hey, Bill.
[01:05:05.850 --> 01:05:06.190]  Yes.
[01:05:06.630 --> 01:05:07.070]  Hey, Bill.
[01:05:07.190 --> 01:05:07.390]  It's Bernie.
[01:05:07.670 --> 01:05:14.650]  I just wanted to say that the, the, the, the several years I've attended to the, the, the vintage computer, vintage computer festival in Wall, New Jersey.
[01:05:15.230 --> 01:05:16.110]  By the way, you have a website.
[01:05:16.290 --> 01:05:17.610]  I think it's vintage.org.
[01:05:17.750 --> 01:05:18.030]  Is that right?
[01:05:18.510 --> 01:05:18.990]  That's correct.
[01:05:19.190 --> 01:05:19.910]  Vintage.org.
[01:05:19.910 --> 01:05:24.010]  Click on the links and it'll take you to the complete details of the Vintage Computer Fest.
[01:05:24.290 --> 01:05:31.990]  The displays that people bring, the exhibitors, this is really first class museum quality displays people put together.
[01:05:32.170 --> 01:05:35.830]  I mean, whole booths with, with, you can tell these were labors of love.
[01:05:36.010 --> 01:05:45.850]  People obviously spend months putting together these really detailed displays just for you to benefit and see how, uh, how these vintage computers work.
[01:05:45.950 --> 01:05:47.210]  And some of them are decades old.
[01:05:47.210 --> 01:05:52.690]  What I find interesting is that a lot of these computers are, are considerably older than a lot of the attendees.
[01:05:53.130 --> 01:05:55.450]  And, but that's not, that's not a problem.
[01:05:55.610 --> 01:05:58.750]  They want to sit, people want to come, young people want to come and sit down at these old computers.
[01:05:58.890 --> 01:06:01.030]  Bernie, a lot of them are bigger than some of the attendees too.
[01:06:01.250 --> 01:06:02.170]  Oh, that much bigger.
[01:06:02.250 --> 01:06:02.750]  Well, I don't know.
[01:06:02.850 --> 01:06:04.230]  Some of the attendees are pretty big too.
[01:06:04.530 --> 01:06:17.670]  But, uh, Bill, didn't you say you're, you're going to set up a, uh, a teletype workshop or even people can use, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, the much loved ASR 33 teletype machine and, and won't actually one be given away at the festival this year.
[01:06:17.970 --> 01:06:18.870]  That is very true.
[01:06:19.050 --> 01:06:23.890]  We're going to be giving away a handpicked, uh, serviceable, what we're calling serviceable teletype.
[01:06:24.230 --> 01:06:40.050]  Um, and we're going to actually, uh, take the thing apart right then and there in the workshop and, uh, go through piece by piece and, and try to hook it up to a computer and get the thing running as a demonstration to everyone that attends at the workshop so that they can go home and then they can work on their own teletype,
[01:06:40.150 --> 01:06:44.530]  uh, that they've either purchased or won or given one away, uh, as a, as a prize.
[01:06:44.770 --> 01:06:47.830]  And, uh, um, it, it's a great way to get in there.
[01:06:47.950 --> 01:06:53.810]  There's gonna be some real experts there who can help answer almost any question about teletypes and how to hook them up to a computer.
[01:06:54.450 --> 01:06:54.870]  All right.
[01:06:54.910 --> 01:07:02.730]  We just want to remind people at this point that everybody who calls in tonight will have their name added to, uh, the guest list at the, uh, Vintage Computer Festival in Walton, New Jersey.
[01:07:02.730 --> 01:07:03.270]  This weekend.
[01:07:03.970 --> 01:07:12.650]  And, uh, it's something that we encourage people, um, uh, who might be hearing this show later on, uh, go on down and attend and learn something about, uh, computers.
[01:07:12.890 --> 01:07:14.730]  It's, it's, it's great fun for the whole family.
[01:07:15.030 --> 01:07:16.030]  Learn something about history.
[01:07:16.570 --> 01:07:19.570]  Uh, it's, um, it, it just never stops being fascinating.
[01:07:19.570 --> 01:07:20.590]  It's like anything else.
[01:07:20.810 --> 01:07:22.010]  Uh, Bill brought up cars.
[01:07:22.130 --> 01:07:23.130]  Cars is, is one example.
[01:07:23.250 --> 01:07:24.390]  Cameras, another example.
[01:07:24.690 --> 01:07:38.870]  Uh, when, when, uh, Kyle and I travel in various parts of the world, uh, he has an old camera and, uh, and kids just flock around because they see this old camera that, of course, you can't see the picture after you take it because it's film, but they're fascinated by,
[01:07:39.030 --> 01:07:48.510]  by the mechanics, by the fact that it's something old, something that still works, something that probably is still a lot better than things that are, that are operating today, many things that are operating today.
[01:07:48.510 --> 01:07:55.270]  So I think it's that, that magic of, uh, of, of the oldness of technology and how it, how it underlines what we do today.
[01:07:55.550 --> 01:07:56.010]  Yeah.
[01:07:56.010 --> 01:08:00.510]  And there's also that style that some, some computers really had a style to them.
[01:08:00.590 --> 01:08:01.590]  There was weird colors.
[01:08:01.790 --> 01:08:02.890]  Sometimes there were orange.
[01:08:03.070 --> 01:08:03.970]  Sometimes they were blue.
[01:08:04.190 --> 01:08:10.290]  They had metal cases and, and all these strange shapes and, uh, and, and weird things printed on them.
[01:08:10.410 --> 01:08:18.990]  There was definitely a, a uniqueness and artisticness to, uh, some of these early computers, you know, as well as cameras and cars and, you know, anything else.
[01:08:19.090 --> 01:08:24.950]  And now we have just three or four different models of brands of cars you can buy and, you know, three or four different types of computers.
[01:08:24.990 --> 01:08:41.090]  Uh, but there was a time when, um, there were so many different operating systems and there were so many different, uh, uh, disc storage formats, whether it was teletypes or cassette or, or, or five and a quarter inch discs or three and a half inch discs or three inch discs or eight inch discs.
[01:08:41.690 --> 01:08:45.890]  And you had all these different kinds of competing, uh, models of computer.
[01:08:45.890 --> 01:09:01.350]  And what a lot of attendees to the Vintage Computer Festival find is they'll walk around the corner and they'll see that computer that brings back all those memories of when they had their first job or when they were in high school or elementary school,
[01:09:01.370 --> 01:09:05.110]  and it reminds them of the first computer and their first computer experience.
[01:09:05.110 --> 01:09:12.590]  And it really brings back a lot of pleasant memories for most people, except for perhaps people who got fired from their original jobs.
[01:09:12.830 --> 01:09:24.330]  But it really... that's something that whenever a person visits an exhibit like these, they tend to want to tell you their story.
[01:09:24.550 --> 01:09:26.470]  There's always a story behind a computer.
[01:09:26.670 --> 01:09:35.250]  It's not just a thing, but it's the thing that I wrote my paper on, or it's the computer that I played my first games on.
[01:09:35.310 --> 01:09:37.530]  I've learned how to play Pac-Man on it or whatever.
[01:09:37.810 --> 01:09:44.390]  And there's always a human touch to the computers that you don't necessarily feel today.
[01:09:44.530 --> 01:09:47.450]  Well, Bill, I wish we could talk about this for longer.
[01:09:47.650 --> 01:09:52.750]  We have to do an entire show based on vintage computers because it's such a fascinating topic and one that's very dear to my heart.
[01:09:53.370 --> 01:10:04.850]  And I want to thank you for the generosity of authoring the tickets, but please give out the details for people who might be tuning in late as to just where and when this is and the website.
[01:10:05.190 --> 01:10:05.630]  Okay.
[01:10:05.870 --> 01:10:14.950]  Well, first of all, you want to go to vintage.org, V-I-N-T-A-G-E dot org, and click on the link to the Vintage Computer Festival East 7.0.
[01:10:15.390 --> 01:10:19.370]  It's at the InfoAge Science Center, which is in Wall Township, New Jersey.
[01:10:20.770 --> 01:10:27.130]  The event itself is Saturday, May 14th and Sunday, May 15th at the InfoAge Science Center.
[01:10:27.430 --> 01:10:33.470]  And it's sponsored by the Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyist Association and Vintage Tech.
[01:10:34.050 --> 01:10:36.090]  Doors open at 10 each day.
[01:10:36.310 --> 01:10:46.810]  Speakers, which we didn't really talk about, but some great speakers, some real important people in the history of computing that will be speaking, that begin at 10, 15 in the morning and end at 2.
[01:10:46.810 --> 01:10:55.290]  And then the exhibits in the marketplace, we have consignees with vintage computers, which you can actually purchase them, will be open at 2 o'clock p.m.
[01:10:55.330 --> 01:10:58.250]  And then the Vintage Computer Festival itself runs until 7 p.m.
[01:10:58.570 --> 01:10:59.730]  Saturday and 5 p.m.
[01:10:59.770 --> 01:11:00.210]  on Sunday.
[01:11:00.310 --> 01:11:02.530]  So it's a whole weekend of vintage computing.
[01:11:03.110 --> 01:11:08.230]  All right, Bill Degnan, thanks so much for being part of the show tonight, and best of luck with the conference.
[01:11:08.250 --> 01:11:09.410]  Hope to make it down there myself.
[01:11:09.910 --> 01:11:11.790]  And we'll see you at Future Hopes as well.
[01:11:12.130 --> 01:11:12.530]  Okay.
[01:11:12.830 --> 01:11:13.410]  Thank you very much.
[01:11:13.490 --> 01:11:14.070]  All right, take care.
[01:11:14.070 --> 01:11:21.470]  We are going to move on to some more material, but first let me just point out that the Personal Computer Show is not on tonight.
[01:11:21.710 --> 01:11:22.530]  They've been preempted tonight.
[01:11:22.610 --> 01:11:26.730]  They will have a two-hour show next week, though, so tune in for them as well.
[01:11:26.790 --> 01:11:27.390]  This is off the hook.
[01:11:27.390 --> 01:11:30.810]  We'll be going for another hour or another 50 minutes, actually.
[01:11:31.450 --> 01:11:34.130]  We're at 1740, and that's great.
[01:11:34.230 --> 01:11:35.850]  We're almost at the 2000 level.
[01:11:36.090 --> 01:11:40.130]  And, of course, you know, we like to break 2600 at some point during our two-hour shows.
[01:11:40.130 --> 01:11:42.990]  Our phone number, 212-209-2950.
[01:11:42.990 --> 01:11:50.990]  Everybody who calls and pledges any amount gets a ticket to the Vintage Computer Festival that we just talked about that will be happening in Wall, New Jersey, this weekend.
[01:11:51.650 --> 01:11:55.710]  We'll be back in just a moment with the next part of our program.
[01:11:55.890 --> 01:11:56.310]  Stay tuned.
[01:12:08.700 --> 01:12:39.100]  Living in a city of immigrants I don't need to go traveling Open my door into where I'll send Living in a city of immigrants Living in a city that never sleeps Heart keep the time to a thousand beats Singing the languages I don't speak Living in a city of immigrants City of black City of white City of light.
[01:12:40.460 --> 01:12:42.060]  City of innocence.
[01:12:43.300 --> 01:12:44.760]  City of sweat.
[01:12:46.100 --> 01:12:47.640]  City of tears.
[01:12:48.900 --> 01:12:50.460]  City of prayers.
[01:12:51.740 --> 01:12:53.420]  City of immigrants.
[01:13:06.590 --> 01:13:14.970]  Living in a city where the dreams of men reach up and touch the sky and then tumble back down to earth again.
[01:13:15.810 --> 01:13:17.670]  Living in a city that never quits.
[01:13:17.970 --> 01:13:26.550]  Living in a city where the streets are paved with good intentions and a people's faith in the sacred promises that you made.
[01:13:26.770 --> 01:13:29.030]  Living in a city that never quits.
[01:13:29.910 --> 01:13:31.450]  City of stone.
[01:13:32.710 --> 01:13:34.110]  City of steel.
[01:13:35.570 --> 01:13:37.190]  City of wheels.
[01:13:38.730 --> 01:13:40.130]  Constantly spinning.
[01:13:41.210 --> 01:13:42.730]  City of bone.
[01:13:44.030 --> 01:13:45.430]  City of skin.
[01:13:45.810 --> 01:13:48.410]  City of pain.
[01:13:48.970 --> 01:13:51.310]  City of immigrants.
[01:13:53.390 --> 01:14:00.000]  City of
[01:14:27.630 --> 01:14:29.390]  pain.
[01:14:31.470 --> 01:14:31.470]  City of immigrants.
[01:14:32.650 --> 01:14:33.790]  Hey!
[01:14:33.790 --> 01:14:37.550]  Every dollar, every sun.
[01:14:38.630 --> 01:14:42.950]  Everyone is everyone.
[01:14:44.230 --> 01:14:48.050]  All of us are immigrants.
[01:14:49.730 --> 01:14:51.130]  Everyone.
[01:14:53.890 --> 01:14:56.470]  Living in a city of immigrants.
[01:14:56.470 --> 01:14:59.670]  The river flows out and the sea rose in.
[01:14:59.950 --> 01:15:02.610]  Washing the way never on my sins.
[01:15:02.810 --> 01:15:04.530]  Living in a city of immigrants.
[01:15:06.130 --> 01:15:06.970]  City of blood.
[01:15:07.030 --> 01:15:08.910]  And thank you, Steve Earle.
[01:15:09.290 --> 01:15:12.190]  We're back with the second part of Off the Hook.
[01:15:12.410 --> 01:15:14.110]  I want to thank a whole bunch of people.
[01:15:14.530 --> 01:15:17.330]  There's a whole lot of people who didn't want to be thanked publicly on the air.
[01:15:17.430 --> 01:15:19.390]  And we respect that, so we're not going to say anything.
[01:15:19.470 --> 01:15:24.230]  But we do want to thank Paul from Aberdeen, New Jersey, for his generous pledge.
[01:15:24.230 --> 01:15:26.910]  Nicholas, from Astoria.
[01:15:27.410 --> 01:15:30.150]  Robert, over there in Red Bank, New Jersey.
[01:15:30.890 --> 01:15:31.230]  Andy.
[01:15:31.610 --> 01:15:33.530]  Andy, from Kilkenny, Ireland.
[01:15:34.050 --> 01:15:35.170]  Bless your heart.
[01:15:35.310 --> 01:15:36.970]  It's good to hear from the old country.
[01:15:37.970 --> 01:15:40.470]  Alberto, from San Francisco.
[01:15:41.210 --> 01:15:42.950]  Adrian, from New York.
[01:15:43.450 --> 01:15:46.630]  Abdul, also from Manhattan or New York.
[01:15:46.630 --> 01:15:49.410]  David, from Crystal Bay, Minnesota.
[01:15:50.310 --> 01:15:51.910]  And Hugh, also from New York.
[01:15:51.990 --> 01:15:52.750]  A lot of people from New York.
[01:15:52.870 --> 01:15:54.270]  So that's great to hear.
[01:15:54.730 --> 01:16:01.630]  And hopefully a lot of you will take the trip down to Walnut, New Jersey, this weekend for the Vintage Computer Festival.
[01:16:02.030 --> 01:16:04.710]  Great to hear this kind of response.
[01:16:05.010 --> 01:16:08.190]  And we're over... we're almost at $1,900, which is great.
[01:16:08.290 --> 01:16:09.530]  That is an amazing response.
[01:16:09.530 --> 01:16:11.790]  And we're not done yet because we have more.
[01:16:11.930 --> 01:16:14.050]  We have more to show you, to share.
[01:16:14.930 --> 01:16:21.550]  This is actually an excerpt from what I think is probably the most historic panel that we did.
[01:16:22.110 --> 01:16:23.630]  And Greg, I think you know what we're talking about here.
[01:16:23.810 --> 01:16:24.110]  Yeah.
[01:16:24.150 --> 01:16:26.130]  In fact, I was rather involved with this.
[01:16:26.210 --> 01:16:27.790]  I was actually behind the scenes.
[01:16:27.890 --> 01:16:29.310]  I don't know if that's a good story to tell you.
[01:16:29.390 --> 01:16:31.770]  Maybe you want to set up the panel and I can mention what I was doing.
[01:16:31.770 --> 01:16:32.870]  Well, I hope we talk about the same thing.
[01:16:33.010 --> 01:16:33.090]  Yeah.
[01:16:33.390 --> 01:16:38.630]  Basically, the whole WikiLeaks thing happened under our watch while we were organizing the conference.
[01:16:38.790 --> 01:16:42.010]  We had Julian Hassan scheduled to be the keynote speaker.
[01:16:42.010 --> 01:16:50.550]  And of course, everything hit the fan right before the conference, where a former hacker, Adrian Lamo, turned in Bradley Manning to the authorities.
[01:16:50.550 --> 01:16:53.910]  And that made Julian Assange persona non grata in the United States.
[01:16:53.910 --> 01:16:57.670]  He could not travel here, could not be part of the actual keynote.
[01:16:57.830 --> 01:17:01.330]  We did get a keynote, a WikiLeaks keynote, but not from Julian.
[01:17:01.970 --> 01:17:14.510]  But what we did do, since all these people were involved in the conference and we had this interesting story going on, we figured why not confront the issue head on and have Adrian actually tell his story in front of a crowd.
[01:17:14.510 --> 01:17:37.610]  And I think this is one of the shining moments of the hacker community, where basically we had people who obviously disagreed quite vehemently with what Adrian had done, turning in somebody, turning in somebody who had allegedly released all these documents and basically ruining his life because he probably will never get out of prison.
[01:17:37.610 --> 01:17:39.230]  At least that's the way it seems right now.
[01:17:40.110 --> 01:17:42.510]  But listening, listening to that perspective.
[01:17:42.650 --> 01:17:54.430]  And I think we can learn so much from that, from being able to actually keep an open mind, then reach your conclusions, rather than just shouting somebody down or being otherwise unpleasant.
[01:17:54.710 --> 01:17:59.550]  Best to let somebody sync themselves with their own words, if that's the way it goes.
[01:17:59.730 --> 01:18:03.070]  But most importantly, give somebody the chance to at least explain it.
[01:18:03.070 --> 01:18:07.790]  Now, being able to listen and learn is a key characteristic of the community.
[01:18:07.930 --> 01:18:13.330]  In fact, you see that all the time in the letters section where people are writing in saying, how do I become a hacker?
[01:18:13.450 --> 01:18:15.250]  And the answer is, well, you show up, you listen, you learn.
[01:18:15.970 --> 01:18:18.850]  And, of course, that's endemic in the audience.
[01:18:19.050 --> 01:18:23.990]  Now, it's interesting because I asked you to set it up, and now I don't know whether we're talking about the Jacob Applebaum...
[01:18:23.990 --> 01:18:25.070]  Oh, you're talking about...
[01:18:25.070 --> 01:18:27.510]  WikiLeaks talk, or are we talking about the panel?
[01:18:27.550 --> 01:18:29.070]  We're talking about the informants panel.
[01:18:29.070 --> 01:18:37.370]  The informants panel, what happened was we had the panelists, and I think we're going to play from the beginning, so we're going to hear from Kevin and some of the other panelists.
[01:18:37.530 --> 01:18:38.510]  It was just fascinating.
[01:18:38.550 --> 01:18:39.790]  Actually, we're going to hear the beginning of it.
[01:18:39.850 --> 01:18:53.870]  Now, what's interesting about this, we had myself, we had Bernie, we had Phiber Optik, we had Kevin Mitnick, all on this panel talking about informants that have touched our lives, all really interesting stories, but we only had 90 minutes for the entire panel,
[01:18:53.870 --> 01:19:00.590]  and we had Adrian Lama to bring up on stage and basically talk about all this in the midst of all the WikiLeaks drama.
[01:19:00.810 --> 01:19:04.770]  So we have some really good stories, but obviously we can't play them all tonight.
[01:19:04.990 --> 01:19:15.090]  But what I do want to start off with is just the beginning of the actual panel, which is history in and of itself, because, well, we're at the stage.
[01:19:15.410 --> 01:19:19.230]  We're at the stage of bringing somebody extremely controversial out onto stage.
[01:19:20.530 --> 01:19:28.550]  And I've got to say, I've been warned by so many people not to do this, and it just went against everything that I believe in to shy away from something controversial.
[01:19:29.330 --> 01:19:45.250]  So, please, by calling us, 212-209-2950, and pledging either 75 for the 20-DVD set or 125 for the 40-DVD set, you'll get this and so many more talks from the last three conferences, and you'll hear just how it all unfolded.
[01:19:45.250 --> 01:19:49.330]  Let's just play the beginning of this, and we'll be back in just a moment.
[01:19:50.270 --> 01:19:56.150]  All right, we have a couple more people that will be showing up on stage, but this is enough to start off with right now.
[01:19:56.710 --> 01:20:02.390]  This talk is called Informants, Villains, or Heroes.
[01:20:03.250 --> 01:20:12.370]  And we all have stories in our lives as to how informants have played a part one way or another.
[01:20:13.810 --> 01:20:15.650]  None of us are informants, are we?
[01:20:16.470 --> 01:20:17.030]  Not I.
[01:20:17.250 --> 01:20:21.990]  The thing is, in the hacker world, the odds are, what is it, one in four, one in five?
[01:20:22.690 --> 01:20:31.530]  It's a ridiculous percentage, but the number of people who become informants or who are working for two different sides at the same time, it's extraordinarily high.
[01:20:31.530 --> 01:20:33.050]  This has always been the case.
[01:20:33.190 --> 01:20:41.970]  From the very beginning, back in the 1960s and 70s with phone freaks, you could bet that one in a handful of people would be ratting their friends out.
[01:20:42.390 --> 01:20:45.990]  And the question that I think we need to ask you today is, why do people do this?
[01:20:46.110 --> 01:20:46.990]  Why does this happen?
[01:20:47.130 --> 01:20:50.310]  What gets into someone's head when they'll do something like this?
[01:20:50.610 --> 01:20:53.010]  And what would you do in a similar situation?
[01:20:53.010 --> 01:20:58.030]  And can you judge somebody that you have not been in their shoes?
[01:20:58.630 --> 01:21:02.570]  Very quickly, I'll tell my story, and then these two will tell theirs.
[01:21:03.350 --> 01:21:24.290]  Back when I got into trouble in the mid-'80s, hacking into NASA and the White House and various other things via GTE's Telenet system, the unfortunate aftermath of that was that federal agents descended on the radio station that I worked at, at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
[01:21:25.370 --> 01:21:35.090]  And that caused all kinds of confusion because, well, first of all, I didn't own a computer at the time, so I wasn't seen to be a suspect.
[01:21:35.130 --> 01:21:38.910]  So I had to actually tell the federal authorities who the suspect was.
[01:21:39.030 --> 01:21:40.790]  It wasn't the guy on the computer.
[01:21:40.950 --> 01:21:42.530]  It was the guy who was actually using the computer.
[01:21:42.730 --> 01:21:44.690]  So, you know, send your subpoenas this way.
[01:21:46.070 --> 01:21:53.050]  After that happened, I noticed people started acting kind of strange because, well, when federal agents are lurking about, people get scared.
[01:21:53.050 --> 01:21:56.050]  People have all kinds of unpredictable reactions.
[01:21:56.350 --> 01:21:57.950]  And the thing I noticed most...
[01:21:57.950 --> 01:21:59.710]  Well, first of all, a lot of people stopped talking to me.
[01:21:59.790 --> 01:22:06.410]  And I guess that's something that happens whenever you're under investigation by some kind of law enforcement agency.
[01:22:06.410 --> 01:22:13.170]  People kind of freak out and they say, I don't want to be seen with him because I could be busted for something else or guilt by association and whatnot.
[01:22:14.130 --> 01:22:16.070]  So there are those people who stopped talking to me.
[01:22:16.150 --> 01:22:22.210]  But then there was one person that I found out later because other people didn't know to keep their mouth shut.
[01:22:22.430 --> 01:22:40.230]  I found out that this guy had gone to the university legal people and volunteered information, volunteered things that he had heard me say that might make me somewhat suspect and maybe I'm up to something more because the federal authorities were very interested in who I was,
[01:22:40.230 --> 01:22:40.830]  what I was doing.
[01:22:41.350 --> 01:22:44.210]  And at the time, I was floored.
[01:22:44.210 --> 01:22:45.490]  How could somebody do this?
[01:22:45.570 --> 01:22:58.790]  Why would somebody who's not under investigation themselves voluntarily go to somebody and turn in evidence or what they think is evidence or suspicion or gossip or whatever without any reason to?
[01:22:58.850 --> 01:22:59.650]  I mean, we were friends.
[01:22:59.810 --> 01:23:02.210]  This was somebody I talked to, somebody I saw every day.
[01:23:02.430 --> 01:23:08.650]  And again, the only reason I found out was because some idiot in the university office told somebody else and it got back to me.
[01:23:09.550 --> 01:23:16.230]  And yeah, I was pissed off as hell when this happened because this guy's screwing me over for no reason and never did anything to him.
[01:23:16.510 --> 01:23:17.970]  And it's like a witch hunt now.
[01:23:18.170 --> 01:23:19.950]  I mean, I was very open about what I did.
[01:23:20.090 --> 01:23:24.090]  I even went to the feds and told them so that somebody else wouldn't get in trouble for it.
[01:23:24.470 --> 01:23:26.870]  And here are people looking to make it even worse.
[01:23:27.690 --> 01:23:30.830]  It was very, very hard for me to understand this at the time.
[01:23:32.090 --> 01:23:33.510]  Afterwards, I tried.
[01:23:33.770 --> 01:23:50.590]  I tried hard to put myself in their shoes and understand what they must have been thinking when they did this and how scared somebody can be just at the sight of a cop, at the sight of a federal agent, and who knows what demons they have lurking in their closet.
[01:23:51.050 --> 01:23:51.930]  People panic.
[01:23:52.210 --> 01:23:56.010]  People panic and do things that we don't understand why they do it.
[01:23:56.010 --> 01:23:58.210]  And the authorities count on this.
[01:23:58.390 --> 01:24:07.350]  The authorities live for this kind of thing so that they get as much information, they get all of us telling other people about other people.
[01:24:07.650 --> 01:24:15.750]  This is how every authoritarian government in history has worked by getting their citizens to spy on each other and report to the authorities, and then more people do it to them.
[01:24:16.970 --> 01:24:27.550]  So without the dialogue, and that's what I hope we accomplish here today, the dialogue where we actually try and understand where we're all coming from, maybe we can prevent this kind of thing from continuing to happen.
[01:24:27.730 --> 01:24:34.830]  But right now, and as you'll hear with some of the stories today, this is a part of our community that has always been there.
[01:24:35.270 --> 01:24:49.330]  The amount of people who turn into informants, the amount of people who turn people in, the amount of people that you think you can trust with information that you really can't, that has always been with us, and likely will be for quite some time.
[01:24:50.910 --> 01:25:01.090]  Okay, that's me speaking at the next HOPE conference in 2010 at the intro to the informants panel, which we're going to play a little bit more of.
[01:25:01.150 --> 01:25:14.110]  But I just wanted to point out to people that this is one of the DVDs that you will get by pledging $75 for the 20 DVD pack or $125 for the 40 DVD pack of the last three HOPE conferences.
[01:25:14.110 --> 01:25:25.130]  And, wow, this panel in and of itself is just amazing because of the controversy, because of the amazing people on the panel, like Bernie.
[01:25:25.510 --> 01:25:29.290]  You told some really interesting stories and gave a lot of insight.
[01:25:29.430 --> 01:25:31.150]  Kevin Mitnick, fiber optic.
[01:25:31.730 --> 01:25:37.670]  It would be an amazing panel in and of itself without all the WikiLeaks drama that accompanied it.
[01:25:37.970 --> 01:25:39.190]  But this was real history.
[01:25:39.310 --> 01:25:45.810]  This was history for the hacker community, having all of this up on stage at the same time, while the whole world was watching.
[01:25:46.210 --> 01:25:46.650]  Emmanuel?
[01:25:46.790 --> 01:25:47.250]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[01:25:47.470 --> 01:25:50.850]  You could feel the tension in the air there.
[01:25:50.850 --> 01:25:52.070]  It was incredible.
[01:25:52.070 --> 01:25:59.590]  And you can feel it too, if you see the DVD video of this panel, because it was really history in the making.
[01:25:59.710 --> 01:26:16.490]  And it addressed a topic that all of us in the hacker community really are kind of afraid to talk about, or at least a lot of people lack the perspective because they haven't been on one side or either side of that equation before, either whether they're being informed about or whether they were pressured to inform on someone else.
[01:26:16.610 --> 01:26:19.350]  But it was really good information to cover.
[01:26:19.350 --> 01:26:20.910]  I've got to hand it to you for putting that together.
[01:26:21.010 --> 01:26:23.550]  A lot of people were involved in putting it together, but it was your idea.
[01:26:23.790 --> 01:26:24.990]  And I thank you for that.
[01:26:25.210 --> 01:26:25.830]  Well, you're welcome.
[01:26:25.850 --> 01:26:32.670]  And we had a lot of doubts, second thoughts as to whether or not this might actually backfire on us.
[01:26:32.730 --> 01:26:34.570]  It could be a really bad thing.
[01:26:34.570 --> 01:26:46.130]  But I had to look at my history with the hacker community, the people I've known over the decades, and ask myself, how much faith do I actually have in the integrity of the community?
[01:26:46.710 --> 01:26:53.130]  And the answer came back every time that this is one of the best communities out there.
[01:26:53.230 --> 01:26:58.010]  And that if we can't do this, if we can't pull this off, then I don't think anybody can.
[01:26:58.250 --> 01:27:00.510]  This story fell right into our laps.
[01:27:00.510 --> 01:27:04.470]  We have the main players right here in front of us.
[01:27:04.870 --> 01:27:11.930]  Let's hash this out and have an actual conversation and see where it all goes from there.
[01:27:12.110 --> 01:27:14.930]  Yeah, I personally am glad that this panel actually happened.
[01:27:15.050 --> 01:27:16.570]  It was an amazing panel.
[01:27:16.710 --> 01:27:21.430]  And I thought it was, from personal experience, was a great show of maturity.
[01:27:21.670 --> 01:27:31.010]  And it's even more amazing that we managed to squeeze so much of all those issues, those very important issues that, as you said, were hashed out in 90 minutes.
[01:27:31.190 --> 01:27:33.530]  It was tough, because we all had such interesting stories to tell.
[01:27:33.610 --> 01:27:39.010]  And I feel bad just playing my story, because Kevin had a great story, and I know, Bernie, you had a great story as well, and Fiber.
[01:27:39.510 --> 01:27:40.630]  But you get all of that.
[01:27:40.710 --> 01:27:44.010]  When you pledge for the DVD, you will get all of that and so much more.
[01:27:44.210 --> 01:27:46.490]  212-209-2950.
[01:27:46.930 --> 01:27:48.890]  I want to play the rest of the intro.
[01:27:48.890 --> 01:27:56.490]  I want to actually show people how it all came to happen, where we brought Adrian up on stage.
[01:27:56.490 --> 01:28:05.130]  And even at that moment, you know, in the back of my mind, I was wondering, okay, what's going to happen when we actually bring Adrian up on stage?
[01:28:05.470 --> 01:28:08.330]  So I had to sort of enter into a pact with the audience.
[01:28:08.550 --> 01:28:16.290]  And to their amazing credit, they were absolutely phenomenal, as far as just listening with an open mind.
[01:28:16.470 --> 01:28:20.490]  And you'll hear, you'll hear Adrian has his supporters, and he certainly has his detractors.
[01:28:20.930 --> 01:28:26.210]  But for the most part, you could hear everything that was being said, and he was able to present himself.
[01:28:26.330 --> 01:28:29.750]  And he gets a lot of credit too, for having the guts to come up on stage and do that.
[01:28:29.870 --> 01:28:31.070]  That does mean something.
[01:28:31.150 --> 01:28:34.370]  And that's also a part of the hacker community that I think we should acknowledge.
[01:28:35.310 --> 01:28:36.790]  212-209-2950.
[01:28:36.930 --> 01:28:38.130]  Join the caller on the line now.
[01:28:38.390 --> 01:28:40.570]  We, by the way, we're at 2,190, which is amazing.
[01:28:40.910 --> 01:28:42.190]  We have to hit 2,600 though.
[01:28:42.290 --> 01:28:44.570]  It's just, it's a badge for us that we got to get there.
[01:28:44.570 --> 01:28:47.710]  So if you pledge $125, you'll get 40 DVDs.
[01:28:47.790 --> 01:28:49.730]  40 DVDs of talks like this.
[01:28:49.890 --> 01:28:51.130]  Well, not quite like this.
[01:28:51.170 --> 01:28:51.990]  This is unbelievable.
[01:28:52.230 --> 01:28:53.910]  But you get the Steve Rombaum talks.
[01:28:54.610 --> 01:28:58.630]  For a $40 DVD set, you'll get all the Steve Rombaum talks.
[01:28:58.710 --> 01:28:59.990]  You'll get the keynotes.
[01:29:00.030 --> 01:29:03.810]  You'll get this talk, the informants panel, and so much more.
[01:29:03.910 --> 01:29:11.650]  For a 20 DVD set, for $75, you'll get this plus 19 others, including the Steve Rombaum talk we played earlier.
[01:29:11.650 --> 01:29:20.730]  And, of course, everybody who calls in gets a ticket to this weekend's Vintage Computer Festival that either you can attend yourself or send somebody in your place.
[01:29:20.850 --> 01:29:23.750]  It's just one more way that we're sweetening the pot for you.
[01:29:23.850 --> 01:29:26.150]  212-209-2950.
[01:29:26.150 --> 01:29:31.030]  Let's go back into this panel, though, because this is too fascinating not to listen to the rest of.
[01:29:31.110 --> 01:29:32.270]  212-209-2950.
[01:29:32.270 --> 01:29:33.810]  I wish we had given this panel two hours.
[01:29:33.910 --> 01:29:36.110]  We have another 30 minutes, but we have so much ground to cover.
[01:29:36.110 --> 01:29:48.950]  I'm sure you've all heard of the latest case, which probably many of you are here for, concerning the keynote speaker here at Hope, Julian Assange of WikiLeaks.
[01:29:49.310 --> 01:30:03.010]  An interesting story that is behind that, where this kid in the Army was allegedly releasing classified information, including videotapes that were very damning to the U.S.
[01:30:03.430 --> 01:30:03.490]  military.
[01:30:05.030 --> 01:30:18.630]  And what wound up happening, according to a report in Wired, is that this particular person in the Army befriended somebody within the hacker community and proceeded to tell him all kinds of interesting things.
[01:30:18.630 --> 01:30:25.890]  And that person in the hacker community felt compelled to turn him in.
[01:30:26.210 --> 01:30:34.210]  Now, I've been told by many, many people that it's insane to dive into this.
[01:30:34.490 --> 01:30:49.050]  That even though this is happening right here at Hope, that we have the keynote speaker running WikiLeaks involved in this, we have the person who turned in the person who leaked information...
[01:30:49.050 --> 01:30:49.250]  The alleged.
[01:30:49.490 --> 01:30:50.270]  The alleged, yes.
[01:30:50.810 --> 01:30:51.930]  Well, no, he did turn him in.
[01:30:52.130 --> 01:30:54.130]  Oh, no, you turned in the... and you were about to...
[01:30:54.130 --> 01:30:55.250]  I was getting to the alleged, yes.
[01:30:55.630 --> 01:30:56.790]  We have to use alleged all the time.
[01:30:56.790 --> 01:30:57.590]  It's going to be very clear here.
[01:30:57.610 --> 01:30:57.770]  I'm not a lawyer.
[01:30:59.210 --> 01:31:02.270]  So, we have that person who has been attending the conference.
[01:31:03.690 --> 01:31:06.530]  Should we avoid the controversy, or should we dive right into it?
[01:31:06.830 --> 01:31:08.630]  I say, of course, we dive right into it.
[01:31:08.670 --> 01:31:11.010]  We confront this thing head-on, right?
[01:31:15.450 --> 01:31:20.110]  But, it involves a leap of faith, and I have that faith in you guys.
[01:31:20.310 --> 01:31:36.410]  Being civil, listening, coming to your own conclusions, letting people who we disagree with, we may disagree with severely, have their say, so that we can judge for ourselves, and not just based on what we're told by our friends, what we're told in the mass media.
[01:31:37.070 --> 01:31:42.770]  I get into arguments with people on both sides of the spectrum, because I don't like being told how I should feel, what I should say.
[01:31:42.770 --> 01:31:43.310]  All right?
[01:31:43.390 --> 01:31:48.030]  I want to reach that conclusion myself, and that's going to involve asking questions of everybody.
[01:31:49.130 --> 01:31:54.530]  So, do we all agree that we're going to let this guy have his say in a civil manner?
[01:32:00.780 --> 01:32:12.420]  And I think we also need to acknowledge it takes a lot of balls to show up in a crowd that's potentially very hostile and stand your ground, no matter what you think of what he stands for or what he did.
[01:32:12.640 --> 01:32:12.960]  All right?
[01:32:13.040 --> 01:32:13.840]  Do we agree on that, too?
[01:32:14.380 --> 01:32:14.980]  All right.
[01:32:18.060 --> 01:32:25.720]  With that, I'd like to introduce Adrian Lamo, and we'll let him say his piece, ask some questions, and hopefully learn something.
[01:32:26.120 --> 01:32:26.700]  Adrian?
[01:32:28.040 --> 01:32:28.740]  All right.
[01:32:28.800 --> 01:32:29.180]  You can vote.
[01:32:29.300 --> 01:32:29.580]  Go ahead.
[01:32:35.180 --> 01:32:35.940]  Let's go.
[01:32:42.380 --> 01:32:45.920]  Good day, friends, neighbors, and opponents.
[01:32:46.520 --> 01:32:54.080]  Although, I would say from the get-go, I don't feel that I'm the opponent of anybody in this crowd.
[01:32:54.080 --> 01:32:59.160]  You may feel differently, and I respect your right to do so.
[01:33:00.910 --> 01:33:15.180]  But before I dive into the WikiLeaks-related controversy, I want to go back to a story that is very similar to several of the ones that have been told here just now.
[01:33:16.520 --> 01:33:20.860]  In 2003, I was arrested by the FBI.
[01:33:20.860 --> 01:33:25.800]  I was given basically the same talk.
[01:33:26.180 --> 01:33:28.100]  Hey, you know what would really be cool?
[01:33:28.300 --> 01:33:32.280]  If you added all of your friends to us as being career criminals.
[01:33:33.100 --> 01:33:35.140]  And I did not do that.
[01:33:35.360 --> 01:33:48.120]  You can hop onto PACER, and you can get the court transcripts, and what you will find is that I allocated responsibility because I believe people own their actions.
[01:33:49.320 --> 01:33:55.460]  Some of you may have been here last night for the screening of the film Hackers Wanted.
[01:33:55.740 --> 01:34:08.220]  What I was doing at that time is what I do believe Private First Class Manning was doing, which is acting one's conscience.
[01:34:09.140 --> 01:34:28.200]  In my case, I wanted to set a precedent whereby hackers could approach corporations and have the outcome be positive, have the outcome be one where corporations walked away saying, hey, you know what, that wasn't so bad.
[01:34:28.540 --> 01:34:31.440]  These hacker people can actually help us.
[01:34:31.440 --> 01:34:33.040]  They're not all out to get us.
[01:34:34.420 --> 01:34:37.440]  The New York Times Corporation disagreed.
[01:34:38.120 --> 01:34:39.420]  They pressed charges.
[01:34:39.420 --> 01:34:44.220]  As I always said that I did, I pled guilty because I was guilty.
[01:34:44.960 --> 01:34:47.820]  And that was my acceptance of responsibility.
[01:34:50.760 --> 01:34:52.720]  Fast forward a couple of years.
[01:34:54.260 --> 01:35:01.500]  One in a long series of people sent me a random instant message saying, hey, have a look at what I did.
[01:35:01.680 --> 01:35:02.780]  And I was like, yeah, cool.
[01:35:03.160 --> 01:35:03.700]  Whatever.
[01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:04.960]  I'll get to that.
[01:35:05.160 --> 01:35:13.560]  Because a lot of people do approach me with information about their ongoing computer hacking.
[01:35:14.160 --> 01:35:21.140]  When that hacking involves things that are actually genuinely cool and interesting, I'll say, hey, sure, yeah, sure.
[01:35:21.300 --> 01:35:21.880]  Tell me more.
[01:35:22.040 --> 01:35:22.600]  I'm interested.
[01:35:23.240 --> 01:35:39.920]  When it involves crimes, be they financial or otherwise hurtful to actual individuals in the real world but not life threatening, I'll tell them, hey, shut the hell up and let me put you in touch with this attorney I know.
[01:35:41.380 --> 01:35:49.800]  In this case, I didn't really have either of those two choices because the die was already cast.
[01:35:52.500 --> 01:36:04.420]  I was made aware that over a quarter million documents had been allegedly leaked that were classified State Department cables.
[01:36:05.240 --> 01:36:07.240]  They had been sent to WikiLeaks.
[01:36:07.580 --> 01:36:09.860]  WikiLeaks had a presence here at this conference.
[01:36:10.100 --> 01:36:12.980]  I think that they gave an interesting talk.
[01:36:14.320 --> 01:36:17.300]  But conspicuously, they didn't mention those cables.
[01:36:18.480 --> 01:36:23.820]  And I can't really say why that is.
[01:36:23.940 --> 01:36:32.440]  I'm operating on about three hours of sleep and I didn't know up until right before this was happening that I was going to be talking.
[01:36:32.440 --> 01:36:35.320]  So please forgive me if I come off a little bit rough.
[01:36:38.140 --> 01:37:14.020]  The information that was allocated to me via instant messenger was that information had been downloaded, cables, essentially a whole fracking lot of cables, more cables, cables in this case being an anachronism for the diplomatic version of email, had been downloaded onto a computer in Iraq that had then used another route to submit them to WikiLeaks.
[01:37:17.840 --> 01:37:32.000]  Is there anybody here in this audience that thinks that they could go through 250,000 multi-page documents that contain classified information about diplomacy throughout the world and say for certain that it's not going to cost anybody's life?
[01:37:33.580 --> 01:37:34.220]  Anyone?
[01:37:34.220 --> 01:37:34.300]  Anyone?
[01:37:42.560 --> 01:37:45.780]  I don't see any hands, but the lights are kind of bright.
[01:37:49.130 --> 01:37:53.530]  In that case, I felt compelled.
[01:37:54.690 --> 01:37:57.190]  Compelled, I don't believe, is too strong a word.
[01:38:01.920 --> 01:38:03.920]  What did you feel compelling?
[01:38:04.400 --> 01:38:06.540]  In what way did you feel people would put at risk?
[01:38:08.460 --> 01:38:12.600]  There are a number of ways in which that information could put people at risk.
[01:38:12.840 --> 01:38:18.060]  The State Department is involved in a number of intelligence operations throughout the world.
[01:38:19.440 --> 01:38:23.100]  They're not supposed to be, but they're looking out for the interests of Americans.
[01:38:30.620 --> 01:38:33.100]  The State Department activities put other people...
[01:38:33.100 --> 01:38:34.060]  Okay, you'll have your say.
[01:38:34.200 --> 01:38:34.600]  You'll have your say.
[01:38:34.700 --> 01:38:35.180]  We'll take some questions.
[01:38:35.400 --> 01:38:44.840]  I'll be open for a Q&A, and I think the Q&A is probably the most important thing, because you guys know better than I do what you want to know.
[01:38:44.960 --> 01:38:47.420]  We'll be handing out darts and bows and arrows, so don't worry.
[01:38:48.500 --> 01:38:53.740]  Also, if anybody thought to bring pitchforks and maybe some torches, that would be cool, too.
[01:38:54.600 --> 01:38:58.300]  If people want to ask questions, they can line up behind the second microphone there.
[01:38:58.520 --> 01:39:01.860]  There's a second microphone and leave your weapons behind.
[01:39:03.120 --> 01:39:04.800]  But let Adrian finish first.
[01:39:05.600 --> 01:39:16.520]  As I was stating, State Department operations throughout the world involve both American intelligence activities and the activities of American tourists and travelers abroad.
[01:39:17.640 --> 01:39:25.520]  If you assume the most innocent possible scenario that it would do nothing but make the U.S.
[01:39:25.640 --> 01:39:31.440]  look bad in countries abroad, that would still leave people...
[01:39:31.440 --> 01:39:40.940]  Okay, we've got to fade out there because we're running low on time, but that was Adrian Lamo giving his side of the story at the Next Hope Conference in July of 2010 here in New York.
[01:39:41.080 --> 01:39:45.600]  And, boy, what an incredible, incredible experience, incredible panel that was.
[01:39:45.640 --> 01:39:46.680]  But what if people want to hear more?
[01:39:46.760 --> 01:39:47.720]  What if people want to hear more?
[01:39:47.800 --> 01:40:03.060]  If they want to hear more, all you've got to do is call in 212-209-2950, pledge either $75 for that talk and 19 others, or pledge $125 for that talk and 39 others.
[01:40:03.060 --> 01:40:04.720]  It's an incredible deal.
[01:40:04.920 --> 01:40:07.440]  And these are talks from the last three conferences.
[01:40:07.720 --> 01:40:10.260]  So you're getting the best of the best.
[01:40:10.580 --> 01:40:23.120]  And by calling 212-209-2950, you're taking advantage of an opportunity that doesn't come along very often, where we offer these talks at really an incredible bargain.
[01:40:23.660 --> 01:40:30.160]  You're not only getting incredible DVDs, but you're supporting the radio station, keeping this show on the air.
[01:40:30.160 --> 01:40:32.620]  Now, I mentioned before, we're at $2,190.
[01:40:32.740 --> 01:40:33.880]  That's where we are right now.
[01:40:34.380 --> 01:40:39.000]  We've got open phone lines, and we need to reach $2,600.
[01:40:39.160 --> 01:40:46.500]  Because if we can't raise $2,600 in two hours, it just leaves a sour taste with us.
[01:40:46.580 --> 01:40:50.160]  Because, you know, you don't get many opportunities to hit that magical number.
[01:40:51.980 --> 01:40:54.920]  So, yeah, I guess I got to ask Bernie to bring in those phone calls again.
[01:40:55.080 --> 01:40:57.020]  212-209-2950.
[01:40:59.320 --> 01:41:05.680]  If you want to hear more of the panel that we just started to play a little bit of, there's so much more to that.
[01:41:05.840 --> 01:41:06.640]  There's the Q&A.
[01:41:06.780 --> 01:41:08.440]  There are the talks by Kevin Mitnick.
[01:41:08.440 --> 01:41:11.260]  There's the Bernie story.
[01:41:11.480 --> 01:41:12.300]  There's Fiber's story.
[01:41:12.440 --> 01:41:14.420]  There are all kinds of back and forth with Adrian.
[01:41:14.860 --> 01:41:20.340]  And in addition to this, you'll get the WikiLeaks keynote from the Next Hope conference.
[01:41:20.800 --> 01:41:23.820]  And you'll get privacy talks by Steve Rambam.
[01:41:23.900 --> 01:41:32.240]  You'll get all kinds of amazing speakers from all around the world who show up at these conferences and talk about an incredible variety of topics.
[01:41:32.420 --> 01:41:34.020]  We have three calls on the line.
[01:41:34.020 --> 01:41:38.620]  Again, I think we can make that six because this is the kind of thing that comes along once in a lifetime.
[01:41:38.620 --> 01:41:40.100]  This sort of material.
[01:41:40.540 --> 01:41:45.580]  This is something that was unprecedented even for the Hope conferences.
[01:41:45.580 --> 01:41:47.200]  And we always have very good talks.
[01:41:47.380 --> 01:41:51.120]  But wow, this whole WikiLeaks thing happening right then, right there.
[01:41:51.300 --> 01:41:55.580]  And all of the people playing a part in it somehow being around.
[01:41:55.820 --> 01:41:57.680]  That was unprecedented.
[01:41:57.680 --> 01:41:59.460]  And you get to see the whole thing.
[01:41:59.460 --> 01:42:02.260]  212-209-2950.
[01:42:02.260 --> 01:42:04.480]  20 DVDs or 40 DVDs.
[01:42:04.560 --> 01:42:05.080]  Your choice.
[01:42:05.620 --> 01:42:06.920]  Whatever you can afford.
[01:42:07.540 --> 01:42:08.340]  Please pledge.
[01:42:08.640 --> 01:42:10.560]  And you'll be supporting the radio station.
[01:42:10.700 --> 01:42:12.460]  Keeping content like this coming your way.
[01:42:12.640 --> 01:42:14.380]  And again, everybody who calls in.
[01:42:14.460 --> 01:42:21.100]  Everybody who calls in gets their name on the guest list for the Vintage Computer Festival happening this weekend in Wall, New Jersey.
[01:42:21.740 --> 01:42:23.300]  Now, Greg, I know you have something to say.
[01:42:23.380 --> 01:42:25.760]  And then Bernie's going to bring in the rest of the phone calls, I hope.
[01:42:25.900 --> 01:42:26.200]  Oh, sure.
[01:42:26.200 --> 01:42:27.940]  Yeah, I really just want to make a comment.
[01:42:28.220 --> 01:42:32.880]  And Adrian actually said it in his extract there.
[01:42:32.960 --> 01:42:33.820]  And so did you.
[01:42:34.120 --> 01:42:36.100]  Which is, there's a lot of values going on.
[01:42:36.200 --> 01:42:37.840]  There's a lot of people talking about what they value.
[01:42:37.940 --> 01:42:39.780]  And they're using that to guide their actions.
[01:42:39.780 --> 01:42:48.360]  And the parallel here, and of course, it's interesting how sometimes you can have people with essentially very strong worlds that are conflicting.
[01:42:48.600 --> 01:43:03.120]  But the parallel here is that with 212, 209, 2950, people get to act upon their own values and sort of speak up and say that this is content here on WBAI, not only off the hook, but the station as a whole that they value.
[01:43:03.120 --> 01:43:04.980]  So it's quite an opportunity.
[01:43:05.160 --> 01:43:07.180]  Country code one, by the way, in case you're outside the country.
[01:43:07.280 --> 01:43:09.040]  And yes, the DVDs will play in any region.
[01:43:09.040 --> 01:43:12.160]  We do not encode our DVDs to be restricted to one place to another.
[01:43:12.160 --> 01:43:12.920]  That's another value.
[01:43:13.140 --> 01:43:14.880]  We're at 2364.
[01:43:15.620 --> 01:43:15.980]  64?
[01:43:16.120 --> 01:43:17.080]  How did we do that?
[01:43:17.300 --> 01:43:21.000]  Somebody, someone's a wise guy out there and plays with a dollar or $4 or something like that.
[01:43:21.060 --> 01:43:21.500]  Okay, fine.
[01:43:21.580 --> 01:43:22.560]  You know, we'll take any amount.
[01:43:23.020 --> 01:43:24.160]  It all, it all counts.
[01:43:24.160 --> 01:43:26.540]  It all adds up and makes it, makes it all possible.
[01:43:26.780 --> 01:43:28.560]  212, 209, 2950.
[01:43:28.560 --> 01:43:30.520]  We have three calls on the line right now.
[01:43:30.640 --> 01:43:31.600]  Bernie, can you make that six?
[01:43:31.860 --> 01:43:33.080]  I hope so, Emmanuel.
[01:43:34.140 --> 01:43:54.580]  As most of our listeners know, a strong part of the hacker ethic is to share information, sometimes forbidden information, sometimes information that you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask, or the information that nobody ever told you about before but you just had this sneaking suspicion or hunch that you really wanted to know how something worked.
[01:43:54.800 --> 01:43:57.640]  Well, we want to share that information.
[01:43:57.640 --> 01:43:59.000]  That's what we do on this radio show.
[01:43:59.080 --> 01:44:00.300]  That's what we do at the Hope Conferences.
[01:44:00.500 --> 01:44:04.900]  That we do in 2600 Magazine and in our day-to-day lives.
[01:44:05.420 --> 01:44:10.440]  And WBAI is a radio station that allows us to do that.
[01:44:10.860 --> 01:44:13.820]  But frankly, it's expensive running a radio station.
[01:44:14.280 --> 01:44:20.240]  There's studios, there's leasing expenses for the offices, the staff.
[01:44:20.720 --> 01:44:21.780]  We don't get paid anything.
[01:44:21.920 --> 01:44:22.340]  We do this.
[01:44:22.480 --> 01:44:27.160]  It costs us money, all of us who are on this show, to do this personally, out of our pocket.
[01:44:27.300 --> 01:44:37.440]  And I should point out, there are so many people who have donated something tonight, whether it be Bill with the Vintage Computer Festival tickets, whether it be Mitch with the TV Begons, 2600 with the DVDs.
[01:44:37.580 --> 01:44:40.340]  There are so many people just offering so much.
[01:44:40.480 --> 01:44:49.540]  And of course, the people who speak at the Hope Conferences donating their time to spread knowledge to various people from all around the world, at the conference and beyond after we put out DVDs.
[01:44:50.180 --> 01:44:52.540]  So yeah, there's a lot of contributing going on here.
[01:44:52.660 --> 01:44:59.020]  And you can close the cycle by contributing to the radio station and keeping it all going.
[01:44:59.140 --> 01:45:01.620]  212-209-2950.
[01:45:01.900 --> 01:45:04.500]  We've got four calls on the line, Bernie, so that's not bad so far.
[01:45:04.500 --> 01:45:22.960]  And I wanted to say, too, that there is a radio transmitter atop the Empire State Building broadcasting the effective radiated power of about 50,000 watts into four states, the New York metropolitan area, Connecticut, Northern New Jersey, parts of Pennsylvania,
[01:45:23.380 --> 01:45:25.480]  and also to across the world through the Internet.
[01:45:25.480 --> 01:45:29.320]  And this sharing of information is what we are about.
[01:45:29.540 --> 01:45:38.000]  And we encourage you to call 212-209-2950 to support this free exchange of information.
[01:45:38.300 --> 01:45:39.740]  Free isn't really free.
[01:45:39.880 --> 01:45:42.960]  You have to really put your money where your mouth is if you want to.
[01:45:43.040 --> 01:45:47.440]  You know the old saying, the freedom of the press belongs to those who own the press or own a press.
[01:45:47.600 --> 01:45:49.140]  Well, this is a printing press.
[01:45:49.300 --> 01:45:52.420]  The radio station, WBAI, is in effect a printing press.
[01:45:52.420 --> 01:45:55.720]  We are printing information for all of us to share.
[01:45:55.740 --> 01:45:56.940]  But it costs money.
[01:45:57.100 --> 01:45:57.560]  There's paper.
[01:45:57.680 --> 01:45:58.120]  There's ink.
[01:45:58.220 --> 01:45:59.480]  There's the printing press.
[01:45:59.640 --> 01:46:02.300]  There's the electric power that costs to run printing press.
[01:46:02.300 --> 01:46:03.560]  Yeah, unavoidable costs.
[01:46:03.840 --> 01:46:04.200]  Absolutely.
[01:46:04.460 --> 01:46:07.540]  You can't yet do this for absolutely nothing.
[01:46:07.780 --> 01:46:11.700]  This costs money to run this transmitter, to support this radio station.
[01:46:11.820 --> 01:46:17.520]  There's also, you know, the other seven days of the week, there's amazing other radio shows on WBAI.
[01:46:17.520 --> 01:46:24.300]  But listeners to this station obviously value this program and some of the other programs on WBAI.
[01:46:24.400 --> 01:46:25.680]  You wouldn't be listening to it right now.
[01:46:25.680 --> 01:46:31.880]  You know what's incredible, Bernie, is the fact that this radio station in and of itself is one of the most amazing hacks I've ever seen.
[01:46:31.880 --> 01:46:44.520]  Being able to have a station with the amount of power that you made reference to, in the middle of the FM dial in New York City, broadcasting off the top of the Empire State Building and not having a single commercial ever.
[01:46:45.080 --> 01:46:45.460]  Wow!
[01:46:45.660 --> 01:46:46.660]  How is that possible?
[01:46:47.040 --> 01:46:49.480]  And we've been doing it since 1960.
[01:46:49.480 --> 01:46:58.960]  And the only reason we're still on the air is because of our listeners and because of the spirit that has been encompassed in the last couple of hours here on this radio station.
[01:46:58.960 --> 01:47:02.480]  And we have right now, let's see, one, two, three, four, five calls coming in.
[01:47:02.560 --> 01:47:04.140]  I think we had another one just before.
[01:47:04.860 --> 01:47:06.800]  So we're almost there.
[01:47:06.940 --> 01:47:08.700]  We're certainly going to get, we're at 2509.
[01:47:08.780 --> 01:47:10.040]  So I know we're going to hit 2600.
[01:47:10.760 --> 01:47:13.900]  But now Mitch rejoins us from the Bay Area.
[01:47:14.060 --> 01:47:20.480]  And Mitch, I have the solemn news of telling you that we only gave away five of the TVBGON.
[01:47:20.480 --> 01:47:21.960]  So there are five more left.
[01:47:22.880 --> 01:47:30.300]  So, actually, I guess that's not too solemn because it's good for the listeners who are tuning in right now who might be a little bit late to the party.
[01:47:30.680 --> 01:47:31.340]  Well, okay.
[01:47:31.660 --> 01:47:34.940]  Mitch has been kind enough to donate Super TVBGONs.
[01:47:34.940 --> 01:47:36.740]  What I mean by Super TVBGONs.
[01:47:37.060 --> 01:47:39.160]  Is that actually the real name for them, Mitch?
[01:47:39.820 --> 01:47:42.780]  TVBGON Pro, SHP, Super High Power.
[01:47:43.060 --> 01:47:43.440]  Okay.
[01:47:43.700 --> 01:47:46.600]  Well, I'm going to call them Super anyway because they're really, they're really cool.
[01:47:46.600 --> 01:47:56.460]  Uh, but you can, you can basically turn off any television set that has a remote control and, and, and the vast majority of them do at a range of a hundred meters.
[01:47:56.860 --> 01:48:03.200]  Now, I know we live in the United States where the metric system is illegal, but a hundred meters is pretty far.
[01:48:03.340 --> 01:48:12.260]  And, uh, I, I think, uh, it's, it's a 10th of a kilometer, which makes it about, um, what, uh, as far as miles, a 20th of a mile and 18th of a mile.
[01:48:12.260 --> 01:48:15.200]  Uh, well, you people getting their calculators out.
[01:48:15.320 --> 01:48:21.300]  Uh, it's, it's far, you can, you can, uh, what's the furthest you've turned the TV set off from, Mitch?
[01:48:21.560 --> 01:48:31.420]  I've actually done, uh, a Sony TV at 110 meters at this huge mall where they have, uh, tiles that are one foot long and you can count them.
[01:48:31.420 --> 01:48:32.280]  Wow.
[01:48:32.500 --> 01:48:32.720]  Okay.
[01:48:33.000 --> 01:48:48.860]  So for a pledge of one 25, you'll get your own super duper TV be gone, uh, that can turn TVs off at a range of a hundred meters will work in any part of the world and has not yet been introduced to the general public.
[01:48:48.860 --> 01:48:58.120]  This is a brand new design, a rechargeable battery, uh, incredibly, um, uh, um, incredible innovations and advancements in the technology.
[01:48:58.280 --> 01:49:02.160]  We only have five left to one to two zero nine to nine five zero.
[01:49:02.300 --> 01:49:03.760]  We have four calls on the line.
[01:49:03.920 --> 01:49:07.460]  If those four people are calling in, that could mean we only have one left.
[01:49:07.640 --> 01:49:13.500]  So, uh, if, if you're thinking of doing this, apart from the fact that we're off the air in another 12 minutes, this is the time to call.
[01:49:13.500 --> 01:49:14.960]  We will not have this next week.
[01:49:14.960 --> 01:49:20.460]  I can tell you that with a surety 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0 dot red.
[01:49:20.680 --> 01:49:28.720]  Uh, just an FYI for, uh, those who aren't very familiar with metric, a hundred, uh, meters comes out to just over 328 feet.
[01:49:29.320 --> 01:49:30.100]  You and your smartphone.
[01:49:30.280 --> 01:49:30.460]  Okay.
[01:49:30.540 --> 01:49:30.760]  Yeah.
[01:49:30.840 --> 01:49:31.060]  Yeah.
[01:49:31.060 --> 01:49:31.920]  Me and my smartphone.
[01:49:32.260 --> 01:49:35.580]  That's, uh, well, considering, okay, you're sitting there in the living room, turning off your TV set.
[01:49:35.620 --> 01:49:36.560]  How many feet away are you?
[01:49:36.740 --> 01:49:37.040]  Three?
[01:49:37.600 --> 01:49:37.780]  All right.
[01:49:37.940 --> 01:49:41.940]  There's another plus for that though, uh, which is also, uh, bouncing the signal around.
[01:49:42.040 --> 01:49:43.060]  Maybe you don't have a clear shot.
[01:49:43.060 --> 01:49:45.020]  You could try pointing at a wall and bouncing back.
[01:49:45.300 --> 01:49:47.180]  People do that with their TV remotes all the time.
[01:49:47.300 --> 01:49:48.020]  And you can do that.
[01:49:48.360 --> 01:49:53.400]  Who knows, uh, um, at what strange distances with, with something that shoots that far off.
[01:49:53.560 --> 01:49:54.400]  We're at 2584.
[01:49:54.680 --> 01:49:57.240]  So another 16 bucks and we're over 2600, which is great.
[01:49:57.360 --> 01:49:58.240]  That makes me very happy.
[01:49:58.520 --> 01:50:04.600]  Uh, but let's, let's, uh, take Mitch up on his generous offer and give away all 10 of these TV be gone for pledges of 125.
[01:50:05.400 --> 01:50:10.880]  Uh, and, uh, you know, you may ask what, what possible reason would you have for turning off somebody else's television set?
[01:50:10.880 --> 01:50:20.560]  Well, I'll tell you, it can be pretty annoying sometimes to have a TV blaring at you in a restaurant or in a bar or various other public places where you're part of the public.
[01:50:20.660 --> 01:50:23.540]  And, uh, it's, it's your environment as much as anyone else's.
[01:50:23.800 --> 01:50:30.520]  And sometimes, sometimes that action, and I know it's happened with me many times, that action is welcomed by the people who are inside.
[01:50:30.720 --> 01:50:33.480]  Now we don't suggest doing it during the NBA finals or anything like that.
[01:50:33.480 --> 01:50:34.580]  That's a good way to get a black eye.
[01:50:35.100 --> 01:50:38.840]  But if you get caught, that is, and you have to learn how to do it surreptitiously too.
[01:50:39.420 --> 01:50:41.300]  But, uh, there are many instances.
[01:50:41.620 --> 01:50:48.180]  Uh, I know I was in a, a sushi restaurant, uh, somewhere, uh, years ago, uh, where they had this big screen.
[01:50:48.260 --> 01:50:49.040]  It was so inappropriate.
[01:50:49.040 --> 01:50:50.020]  It was a nice place.
[01:50:50.160 --> 01:50:53.500]  It was a place where, where you just wanted to dine with your fellow diners and have conversation.
[01:50:53.500 --> 01:50:55.040]  But there was a stupid TV set.
[01:50:55.040 --> 01:50:56.340]  It had commercials and everything.
[01:50:56.760 --> 01:50:58.920]  And, you know, we just turned the thing off.
[01:50:59.160 --> 01:51:00.600]  And it stayed off for about three minutes.
[01:51:00.620 --> 01:51:03.760]  And then somebody went and turned it back on at, on the staff.
[01:51:04.000 --> 01:51:05.400]  And then we turned it off again.
[01:51:05.400 --> 01:51:11.720]  And then the, the chef actually came out from behind the sushi chef to figure out how to turn the TV back on.
[01:51:11.900 --> 01:51:17.520]  And it was incredible how much effort they were spending on getting the damn TV to work and not on, on the restaurant itself.
[01:51:17.680 --> 01:51:21.700]  Eventually after about three or four back and forth, they just gave up.
[01:51:21.700 --> 01:51:25.720]  And they went to the, back to the business of making food and keeping their customers happy.
[01:51:25.860 --> 01:51:28.080]  And believe me, nobody was watching the TV set in the first place.
[01:51:28.400 --> 01:51:31.700]  This is, and, and, and that was maybe, uh, a distance of 10 feet.
[01:51:31.860 --> 01:51:33.820]  Imagine what you can do at a distance of a hundred meters.
[01:51:34.640 --> 01:51:34.960]  Yeah.
[01:51:35.220 --> 01:51:36.940]  A lot of good can be spread from this.
[01:51:37.100 --> 01:51:37.240]  Yeah.
[01:51:37.300 --> 01:51:38.660]  You can, you can cause mischief too.
[01:51:38.900 --> 01:51:39.420]  I know that.
[01:51:39.500 --> 01:51:40.800]  And mischief isn't always a bad thing.
[01:51:40.920 --> 01:51:44.020]  You know, you hear about these guys that got caught in the second avenue subway tunnel.
[01:51:44.400 --> 01:51:46.160]  They're being treated as potential terrorists.
[01:51:46.320 --> 01:51:49.280]  And, and back in the old days, exploring tunnels was encouraged.
[01:51:49.460 --> 01:51:50.180]  It was something cool.
[01:51:50.180 --> 01:51:51.640]  It still is in my eyes.
[01:51:51.940 --> 01:52:01.360]  So we don't have to buy into this post nine 11 mentality where everything that's mischievous is bad or evil or potentially, uh, a chaos of, of a negative sort.
[01:52:01.780 --> 01:52:03.960]  You can do something positive with this device.
[01:52:04.080 --> 01:52:05.940]  2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0.
[01:52:06.020 --> 01:52:10.300]  We have four calls on the line now and, uh, only five of these devices to give away.
[01:52:10.460 --> 01:52:13.020]  So however many are given away, uh, that's it.
[01:52:13.120 --> 01:52:13.800]  That's all we have.
[01:52:13.900 --> 01:52:14.100]  Dotret.
[01:52:14.100 --> 01:52:15.120]  Uh, yeah.
[01:52:15.300 --> 01:52:27.880]  You know, anyone who believes, uh, that the amount of mass media we have being just pumped into our daily lives and that it's mind numbing or just inappropriate or just, you know, influential, just influencing us in ways that isn't necessarily right.
[01:52:28.020 --> 01:52:34.500]  You can now, you know, try to, you know, remove that presence in a certain, uh, uh, to a certain degree from your life.
[01:52:34.500 --> 01:52:38.920]  We ask people to be responsible in their use of this, of this device.
[01:52:39.120 --> 01:52:44.140]  And there are times, for instance, you know, if there's a news bulletin on the air, that's not the time to turn off the TV, obviously.
[01:52:44.360 --> 01:52:44.580]  Okay.
[01:52:44.780 --> 01:52:53.220]  Common sense kicks in, but there are so many other instances and, and, and they far outnumber, uh, the instances where a TV is doing something good being blared in your face.
[01:52:53.780 --> 01:52:55.800]  And, uh, it's, it's, it's a bit of fun.
[01:52:55.900 --> 01:52:56.720]  It's a bit of liberation.
[01:52:56.720 --> 01:52:58.880]  It's a bit of taking technology into your own hands.
[01:52:58.980 --> 01:53:02.880]  And, and Mitch, I have to say, uh, over the years, when did the TV begun?
[01:53:02.880 --> 01:53:05.940]  The first TV begun, the key chain one, when did that first come onto the market?
[01:53:06.600 --> 01:53:08.280]  October 19th, 2004.
[01:53:08.660 --> 01:53:08.740]  Wow.
[01:53:08.800 --> 01:53:10.120]  You had the exact date.
[01:53:10.540 --> 01:53:10.940]  Okay.
[01:53:11.280 --> 01:53:16.500]  Uh, of course that, that is basically just like a regular TV remote that has a range of, uh, say a living room or something like that.
[01:53:16.620 --> 01:53:18.900]  We're talking much, much further with this, with this new one.
[01:53:19.020 --> 01:53:23.900]  But over the years, the response has been overwhelmingly positive, correct?
[01:53:24.520 --> 01:53:26.380]  Yeah, it's been almost entirely positive.
[01:53:26.740 --> 01:53:27.700]  It's, it's really amazing.
[01:53:27.900 --> 01:53:31.240]  You know, like a lot of people really didn't even know how frustrating it was.
[01:53:31.240 --> 01:53:37.140]  The TVs were blaring at them, filling their heads, filling all of our heads full of messages that aren't there for our benefit.
[01:53:37.420 --> 01:53:46.980]  You know, people weren't really even aware of how frustrating it was until this came along that gave people, you know, the concrete thought that, yeah, you know, it would be fun to turn these things off.
[01:53:46.980 --> 01:53:48.780]  I got, I, this brings back memories.
[01:53:49.040 --> 01:53:54.880]  Long before the TV began existed, I had this, um, this FM transmitter that I would walk around with sometimes.
[01:53:55.060 --> 01:54:01.420]  And what you could do is you could, uh, it was very low power, but you could tune to a particular frequency and take over that frequency.
[01:54:01.420 --> 01:54:13.420]  So that a radio say playing 99.5, uh, in Astoria Queens or something, uh, if you get within a hundred feet of that radio, uh, you could send your own signal over there instead.
[01:54:13.680 --> 01:54:21.900]  Uh, and it was, it's, it was cool for supermarkets and for various places where stupid music was being blared at all the customers all the time.
[01:54:21.900 --> 01:54:27.740]  While you just walk in there with your little FM transmitter and all of a sudden you're playing rap music in the supermarket.
[01:54:27.960 --> 01:54:35.100]  I never forget the reaction when something like that started going over the loudspeakers, people running down the, down the aisles in sheer panic.
[01:54:35.340 --> 01:54:36.560]  Oh my God, what's happening.
[01:54:36.680 --> 01:54:38.560]  It's, it's the end of the world as we know it.
[01:54:38.980 --> 01:54:42.240]  Uh, but sometimes you just need to do something like that.
[01:54:42.240 --> 01:54:42.900]  It's a statement.
[01:54:43.060 --> 01:54:45.520]  It's a great way to, um, to reach out and feel liberated.
[01:54:45.820 --> 01:54:49.960]  And that can, that can be part of, uh, of, of what you're, uh, what you're all about.
[01:54:49.960 --> 01:54:59.460]  If you, if you get one of these TV be gone, one of these super TV be gone and turn off a TV at a hundred meters, 212-209-2950.
[01:55:00.440 --> 01:55:02.280]  Tony, our program director is joining us.
[01:55:02.760 --> 01:55:09.820]  I is because I'm, I'm looking at the tally and I've just come out of the phone room and I'm seeing that we just need another $500 to get to our goal.
[01:55:10.200 --> 01:55:12.440]  Uh, we have, I think four of the TV be gone's left.
[01:55:12.740 --> 01:55:17.200]  Let's get folks on the phone to make that pledge of support at the $125 level.
[01:55:17.200 --> 01:55:19.800]  Just those four will get us to our goal.
[01:55:20.800 --> 01:55:22.300]  212-209-2950.
[01:55:22.320 --> 01:55:25.700]  We only have six minutes left folks for us to get that other $500 in here.
[01:55:25.860 --> 01:55:27.780]  This is a fantastic program.
[01:55:28.220 --> 01:55:30.180]  Everybody, this is a unique audience, Emmanuel.
[01:55:30.300 --> 01:55:33.560]  Many people who tune into this show don't tune into other programs on the station.
[01:55:33.560 --> 01:55:39.680]  So we want those of you who are faithful right here to off the hook to come up and do your part.
[01:55:39.780 --> 01:55:42.960]  Now, make a pledge of support at the $125 level.
[01:55:43.140 --> 01:55:49.840]  Take out your MasterCard American Express or Visa card and pledge and support your favorite program on WBAI.
[01:55:49.940 --> 01:55:51.880]  It's the only way we're able to get this done.
[01:55:51.980 --> 01:55:53.420]  There are no commercials as you know.
[01:55:53.940 --> 01:55:57.660]  So it's your job to do your part to keep this station on the airwaves.
[01:55:57.860 --> 01:56:00.320]  212-209-2950.
[01:56:00.660 --> 01:56:03.680]  Just four more of you pledging at the $125 level.
[01:56:03.800 --> 01:56:06.140]  You can also get the Hope Conference DVDs, of course.
[01:56:06.540 --> 01:56:08.960]  And you can get that other thing I saw on the board and I don't remember what it is.
[01:56:09.120 --> 01:56:09.940]  We have so much.
[01:56:10.060 --> 01:56:11.440]  We have five calls on the line now.
[01:56:11.620 --> 01:56:12.400]  So, Tony, stick around.
[01:56:12.840 --> 01:56:13.160]  Apudate.
[01:56:14.340 --> 01:56:15.500]  212-209-2950.
[01:56:16.140 --> 01:56:18.020]  But we have the 20-DVD set.
[01:56:18.060 --> 01:56:19.200]  We have the 40-DVD set.
[01:56:19.200 --> 01:56:21.080]  And we have the TV Begons.
[01:56:21.300 --> 01:56:23.000]  And if all five of these people...
[01:56:23.000 --> 01:56:26.840]  Now, six of these people calling in want one of those where we don't have any more.
[01:56:27.000 --> 01:56:28.660]  But call in and find out.
[01:56:28.840 --> 01:56:30.720]  Well, they weren't taking them when I was back there a moment ago.
[01:56:30.800 --> 01:56:32.000]  There were still four sitting there.
[01:56:32.040 --> 01:56:35.560]  So you can probably call now and still get yourself one of the TV Begons.
[01:56:35.840 --> 01:56:40.980]  But it's imperative that you donate to support the kind of programming that you want to hear on WBAI, folks.
[01:56:41.200 --> 01:56:41.880]  Do that now.
[01:56:42.000 --> 01:56:42.860]  Make your pledge of support.
[01:56:43.380 --> 01:56:43.800]  Thanks, Tony.
[01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:45.620]  Tony, 212-209-2950.
[01:56:45.720 --> 01:56:48.320]  You're going to have to get back down the tally because we're going to need to help them.
[01:56:48.440 --> 01:56:50.780]  Well, before I do, there's just one last thing I need to say.
[01:56:50.920 --> 01:56:52.380]  And it happens every time.
[01:56:52.380 --> 01:57:00.040]  And without fail, people always contact us saying, Can I still get that premium that you offered yesterday or last week?
[01:57:00.060 --> 01:57:04.700]  And there is absolutely no guarantee that we'll ever offer anything we have on right now again.
[01:57:04.720 --> 01:57:08.400]  And you have less than five minutes before the show is over.
[01:57:08.440 --> 01:57:08.880]  This is the time to call.
[01:57:09.080 --> 01:57:10.720]  212-209-2950.
[01:57:11.220 --> 01:57:11.820]  Do that.
[01:57:11.820 --> 01:57:14.320]  212-209-2950.
[01:57:14.560 --> 01:57:15.180]  Make your voice heard.
[01:57:15.480 --> 01:57:16.860]  Keep these guys on the airwaves.
[01:57:16.860 --> 01:57:23.820]  I love tuning into the show and hearing how different it sounds from the rest of WBAI, but how well produced the program is, how young sounding it is.
[01:57:23.980 --> 01:57:25.360]  There's freaking cross talk.
[01:57:25.720 --> 01:57:26.360]  It's awesome.
[01:57:26.480 --> 01:57:27.160]  It's like real radio.
[01:57:27.700 --> 01:57:28.700]  I appreciate that.
[01:57:28.820 --> 01:57:31.620]  If you appreciate that as well, do your part.
[01:57:31.880 --> 01:57:33.380]  You cannot wait for your neighbor to do it.
[01:57:33.440 --> 01:57:34.320]  You cannot wait for your friend.
[01:57:34.420 --> 01:57:38.040]  You can't look at the guy in the next cubicle or the woman in the next cubicle or in the car next to you.
[01:57:38.040 --> 01:57:41.320]  It's your responsibility to keep community radio alive.
[01:57:41.480 --> 01:57:44.040]  212-209-2950.
[01:57:44.800 --> 01:57:51.900]  And one thing, Tony, we learned from this show is we hear from people all over the world and we see them at conferences and different countries and things like this.
[01:57:52.220 --> 01:57:53.080]  People tune in.
[01:57:53.220 --> 01:58:04.260]  They listen to the station and they wish there was a station like this in their city, but if there isn't, they at least are able to listen on the internet and hear all the range of topics we talk about in the course of just a normal day.
[01:58:04.260 --> 01:58:06.200]  So, you're supporting that.
[01:58:06.340 --> 01:58:16.600]  You're supporting that concept of alternative thought and presentation by calling 212-209-2950 and pledging at the level you can afford and keeping it going as it has been since 1960.
[01:58:17.060 --> 01:58:17.800]  Imagine that.
[01:58:18.080 --> 01:58:20.080]  51 years we have been here doing this.
[01:58:20.120 --> 01:58:21.040]  51 years.
[01:58:21.200 --> 01:58:22.640]  And it's because of you folks.
[01:58:22.640 --> 01:58:24.840]  It's because of your pledges of support to this station.
[01:58:25.020 --> 01:58:29.000]  We would not be here if you hadn't made the choice to make those phone calls.
[01:58:29.000 --> 01:58:39.840]  You know, I tell people all the time, Emmanuel, that Democracy Now!, which I think is the best news show in the country, people can hear it in my small hometown in South Carolina because the people in New York pledged in support of that program.
[01:58:39.940 --> 01:58:42.320]  That is a gift to all of us, an international gift.
[01:58:42.380 --> 01:58:43.600]  That show is heard around the world.
[01:58:43.920 --> 01:58:45.840]  That's how important your pledge is, folks.
[01:58:46.240 --> 01:58:48.060]  Make the choice to keep this station alive.
[01:58:48.220 --> 01:58:52.060]  212-209-2950, just a pledge of $125.
[01:58:52.700 --> 01:58:55.720]  We will accept your American Express, your MasterCard, or your Visa.
[01:58:56.420 --> 01:58:59.660]  Greg here was talking about Democracy Now!, actually, on his Alaska station.
[01:58:59.840 --> 01:59:02.620]  He's from Alaska, and they play it 29 hours after it airs.
[01:59:03.460 --> 01:59:04.680]  I'm not sure why.
[01:59:04.880 --> 01:59:05.080]  Slight podcast delay.
[01:59:05.460 --> 01:59:06.700]  Slight podcast delay there.
[01:59:06.780 --> 01:59:08.100]  Look, I want to make the parallel here.
[01:59:08.240 --> 01:59:12.880]  The TV Be Gone is all about empowering yourself in the face of technology that's in your face.
[01:59:12.940 --> 01:59:13.860]  You don't know what to do about it.
[01:59:14.100 --> 01:59:17.640]  This radio show is all about empowering yourself, learning about the technology.
[01:59:17.640 --> 01:59:27.600]  And the same thing is when you pick up the phone and call the number, 212-209-2950, to empower yourself on the radio, where normally you feel like there's just nothing you can do.
[01:59:27.700 --> 01:59:30.680]  They're not paying attention to you on the airwaves.
[01:59:30.740 --> 01:59:31.260]  And here they do.
[01:59:31.380 --> 01:59:32.200]  Guys, we've got to get out of here.
[01:59:32.340 --> 01:59:33.200]  We've got to make out of here.
[01:59:33.280 --> 01:59:35.580]  It's unfortunate, but let's keep those phone calls coming.
[01:59:36.480 --> 01:59:38.380]  212-209-2950.
[01:59:38.380 --> 01:59:39.480]  All right, thanks.
[01:59:39.660 --> 01:59:41.020]  Thanks, everybody, for calling in.
[01:59:41.400 --> 01:59:43.420]  Again, if there are TV Begins left, give a call.
[01:59:43.540 --> 01:59:45.600]  I'm sure we can help you out there.
[01:59:45.760 --> 01:59:47.960]  And, of course, the DVD sets 20 and 40.
[01:59:48.340 --> 01:59:50.780]  We'll see you again next week for a regular one-hour program.
[01:59:51.100 --> 01:59:54.320]  Stay tuned to WBAI for all kinds of other amazing things coming your way.
[01:59:54.980 --> 01:59:57.040]  And, again, thanks to everybody calling in.
[01:59:58.420 --> 02:00:00.280]  212-209-2950.
[02:00:00.400 --> 02:00:01.500]  That is our phone number.
[02:00:01.600 --> 02:00:06.020]  And, again, we take all kinds of credit cards and all kinds of other payment options.
[02:00:06.020 --> 02:00:08.740]  But you're getting an incredible radio station.
[02:00:08.960 --> 02:00:13.300]  An amazing voice with all sorts of different flavors to it.
[02:00:13.680 --> 02:00:15.220]  212-209-2950.
[02:00:15.800 --> 02:00:19.540]  Join the three callers remaining on the phone line in the next few minutes.
[02:00:19.900 --> 02:00:20.820]  Emmanuel for Off The Hook.
[02:00:21.000 --> 02:00:22.000]  See you next week.
[02:00:22.300 --> 02:00:22.580]  Good night.
[02:00:23.960 --> 02:00:25.040]  Swan Nanak from House.
[02:00:25.040 --> 02:00:29.460]  O 'Rourke Science Occupation by Muslim in the equals room.
[02:00:30.720 --> 02:00:36.080]  Invaded Ethiopia killing us one by one.
[02:00:39.120 --> 02:00:43.200]  Occupation by Muslim in the equals room.
[02:00:45.080 --> 02:00:49.920]  And they had us, came from the vertical.
[02:00:54.640 --> 02:00:57.800]  1935, 3rd of October.
[02:00:58.860 --> 02:01:04.360]  They crossed the borders, war in Ethiopia.
[02:01:05.600 --> 02:01:11.960]  A nation of 42 million, attacking a nation of 12 million.
[02:01:12.520 --> 02:01:16.720]  It was the beginning, oh yeah, of the world.
[02:01:20.500 --> 02:01:25.260]  Systematic extermination, by barbarous means.
[02:01:26.040 --> 02:01:31.120]  The victims of the poisonous gas, fell on the ground.
[02:01:33.240 --> 02:01:36.320]  Mutilation of men, women and children.
[02:01:36.920 --> 02:01:39.780]  Killing of our living creatures.
[02:01:40.400 --> 02:01:45.200]  Showing Rastafari, them two features.
[02:01:47.220 --> 02:01:51.600]  Occupation, by mausolean it was wrong.
[02:01:52.780 --> 02:01:58.180]  Inverded Ethiopia, killing us one by one.
[02:02:00.680 --> 02:02:05.140]  Occupation, by mausolean it was wrong.
[02:02:07.140 --> 02:02:11.860]  And the others, came from the vertical.
[02:02:13.000 --> 02:02:17.000]  See, last time I went to the League of Nations.
[02:02:17.360 --> 02:02:22.320]  He had a proclamation he wanted to aid.
[02:02:23.760 --> 02:02:27.680]  Italy's invasion, in Ireland.
[02:02:28.200 --> 02:02:33.540]  But all 52 nations, they all turned their vows.
[02:02:33.540 --> 02:02:39.320]  Add Ethiopia, who ran away, stand up and fight for their lives.
[02:02:39.980 --> 02:02:44.060]  I remember the massacre of 1937.
[02:02:44.620 --> 02:02:47.300]  So don't come tell I about you ever.
[02:02:47.300 --> 02:02:52.500]  So much gain, Ethiopian life.
[02:02:54.900 --> 02:02:59.760]  Occupation, by Masolini it was wrong.
[02:03:01.220 --> 02:03:06.180]  Invaded Ethiopia, killing us one by one.
[02:03:08.400 --> 02:03:13.000]  Occupation, by Masolini it was wrong.
[02:03:13.000 --> 02:03:19.460]  And the others came from the water.
[02:03:42.510 --> 02:03:46.150]  It's majesty, it's majesty.
[02:03:56.200 --> 02:03:59.820]  It's majesty, it's majesty.
[02:03:59.820 --> 02:04:08.600]  I want peace and love.
[02:04:10.640 --> 02:04:14.120]  Only peace and love, Gary.
[02:04:16.920 --> 02:04:22.220]  So why, why, baby, baby.