[00:00.000 --> 00:06.520]  Buxton was born because of slavery, and now the community is showing that it's overcome and has moved on.
[00:07.120 --> 00:10.600]  John Terrett, Al Jazeera, Buxton, Ontario, Canada.
[00:20.610 --> 00:27.310]  Thanks for listening to Al Jazeera English on the radio, broadcast exclusively by the Pacifica Radio Network, free speech radio.
[00:32.960 --> 00:36.980]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:37.180 --> 00:39.340]  The time is just about seven o'clock.
[00:39.480 --> 00:40.680]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:46.270 --> 00:50.450]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:51.390 --> 00:55.970]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:56.570 --> 00:58.770]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:01.590 --> 01:04.210]  Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[01:04.790 --> 01:06.730]  I hope that's understood.
[01:06.930 --> 01:07.730]  Bum-diddly-bum!
[02:35.730 --> 02:42.310]  And, of course, this is Off the Hook, hosted by Emanuel, also joined by Mike.
[02:42.550 --> 02:42.990]  Hello.
[02:43.470 --> 02:44.170]  Rob T.
[02:44.490 --> 02:44.930]  Firefly.
[02:45.210 --> 02:45.650]  Good evening.
[02:45.830 --> 02:46.070]  Kyle.
[02:46.550 --> 02:47.050]  Hi, everybody.
[02:47.630 --> 02:48.410]  Dot Rhett.
[02:48.770 --> 02:49.070]  Hello.
[02:49.630 --> 02:50.070]  Voltaire.
[02:50.670 --> 02:50.890]  Hey.
[02:51.090 --> 02:51.410]  Jim.
[02:51.910 --> 02:52.110]  Hello.
[02:52.750 --> 02:53.170]  Bernie S.
[02:53.250 --> 02:53.790]  down in Philadelphia.
[02:54.370 --> 02:55.350]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:55.770 --> 02:57.270]  And special guest Mitch Altman.
[02:57.650 --> 02:58.050]  Hello.
[02:58.350 --> 02:59.950]  Where are you back from today, Mitch?
[03:01.070 --> 03:05.410]  I actually came from San Francisco, but via Burning Man, via Berlin.
[03:05.750 --> 03:05.990]  Uh-huh.
[03:06.210 --> 03:06.370]  Okay.
[03:06.450 --> 03:09.970]  Wait, is this the same Berlin that we just came back from, from the camp last month?
[03:10.110 --> 03:11.250]  Yeah, I was there for a month.
[03:11.250 --> 03:12.550]  I love Berlin.
[03:12.910 --> 03:13.630]  Okay, okay.
[03:13.790 --> 03:14.930]  Well, that beats us.
[03:15.550 --> 03:20.850]  Anything new to report in the hacker space world or hacker hardware world or anything like that?
[03:21.150 --> 03:21.550]  Oh, yeah.
[03:21.690 --> 03:23.070]  Lots of exciting things.
[03:23.190 --> 03:26.950]  You know, the hacker space movement continues to, like, take off in leaps and bounds.
[03:27.230 --> 03:36.950]  And, you know, hundreds of them around the world spawn a lot of enthusiasm, which make other people want to start them because that's the way they start, is individuals like us start them.
[03:37.190 --> 03:44.470]  And, you know, I'm going to Africa to do a three-day hacker space at the Maker Faire Africa.
[03:45.410 --> 03:45.850]  And...
[03:45.850 --> 03:47.090]  Maker Faire Africa.
[03:47.390 --> 03:48.750]  Yeah, there's a Maker Faire in Africa.
[03:48.850 --> 03:50.010]  This will be the third one.
[03:50.170 --> 03:52.530]  And just sort of serendipitously, it'll be in Cairo.
[03:52.790 --> 03:52.990]  Uh-huh.
[03:53.170 --> 03:55.210]  Now, is this a mini Maker Faire or is this a big Maker Faire?
[03:55.250 --> 03:56.130]  It's pretty big.
[03:56.230 --> 03:56.710]  It's pretty big.
[03:56.710 --> 04:00.110]  Okay, because I wasn't sure if this one was counted on the list of the ones.
[04:00.350 --> 04:04.010]  I see Bay Area, I see Austin, didn't see Africa on that list.
[04:04.290 --> 04:13.750]  Yeah, so the official Maker Faires are in the U.S., but they're also Maker Faires by, supported by O'Reilly all around the world.
[04:14.370 --> 04:14.790]  So...
[04:14.790 --> 04:16.030]  Hey, Mitch, where in...
[04:16.030 --> 04:17.670]  Hi, Mitch, it's Bernie in Philadelphia.
[04:17.830 --> 04:21.330]  Where in Africa is this Maker Faire going to happen?
[04:21.490 --> 04:22.430]  In Cairo.
[04:22.890 --> 04:23.970]  Oh, okay, in Egypt.
[04:24.130 --> 04:24.370]  All right.
[04:24.510 --> 04:24.810]  Yeah.
[04:24.810 --> 04:28.170]  So, a lot of exciting things, as we know, happening there.
[04:28.170 --> 04:29.990]  So, it's really good timing to be there.
[04:30.150 --> 04:32.730]  And there are people actually starting a hackerspace there.
[04:32.890 --> 04:43.610]  And by doing this three-day one, we'll show people who go to the Maker Faire how incredibly cool it is to be part of this whole scene of people making and creating in supportive community.
[04:44.170 --> 04:44.930]  Very cool.
[04:45.150 --> 04:45.510]  Amazing.
[04:45.650 --> 04:46.950]  So, when is that again?
[04:47.630 --> 04:50.570]  That's coming up in mid-October.
[04:50.570 --> 04:56.930]  So, I forget the exact dates, but I'm leaving on October 1st to go there.
[04:57.550 --> 04:58.890]  Can I mention the Kickstarter?
[04:59.150 --> 04:59.610]  Please do.
[05:00.190 --> 05:00.390]  Yeah.
[05:00.510 --> 05:03.790]  So, the Maker Faire Africa gave me and Bilal...
[05:03.790 --> 05:07.730]  I'm a co-founder of hackerspace in San Francisco, Noisebridge.
[05:07.910 --> 05:13.330]  And Bilal is a co-founder of hackerspace in Ann Arbor, Michigan, all hands active.
[05:13.330 --> 05:15.670]  And he's also a documentarian.
[05:15.850 --> 05:20.030]  He's gone around the United States documenting the early days of the hackerspace movement.
[05:20.250 --> 05:21.730]  So, we have both...
[05:21.730 --> 05:26.290]  Collectively, we have a lot of experience in starting and supporting hackerspaces.
[05:26.530 --> 05:35.910]  So, we got seed funding by Maker Faire Africa to do this three-day hackerspace and to show other people how to start hackerspaces there.
[05:35.910 --> 05:38.750]  And we need to raise the other mounts.
[05:39.150 --> 05:40.610]  And so, we started at Kickstarter.
[05:40.990 --> 05:42.430]  And we're about halfway there.
[05:42.570 --> 05:43.630]  We've got about two weeks.
[05:43.810 --> 05:50.150]  And if you want to support us, you can search for Kickstarter Maker Faire Africa.
[05:50.630 --> 05:54.190]  Maybe there are some listeners out there who don't know the concept of Kickstarter.
[05:54.470 --> 05:57.130]  And it might be a good time to kind of explain how that works.
[05:57.210 --> 05:59.210]  Anybody, you care to step up to the plate?
[05:59.350 --> 05:59.590]  Rob?
[06:00.210 --> 06:00.650]  Yeah.
[06:00.750 --> 06:05.830]  Kickstarter is a really cool way to crowdsource funding for basically any sort of projects you can imagine.
[06:06.670 --> 06:12.910]  There have been books written, shows produced, events produced, and things like that.
[06:12.990 --> 06:16.930]  And what it is, is you put out a plan for what it is you want to do and what you want to fund.
[06:17.210 --> 06:18.770]  You put out a fundraising goal.
[06:18.950 --> 06:23.590]  And then you have a certain amount of time to raise that amount of pledges.
[06:23.750 --> 06:27.230]  If you manage to hit your goal, then the people who pledged get charged.
[06:27.270 --> 06:27.850]  You get the money.
[06:28.010 --> 06:29.490]  And you can do what you want to do.
[06:29.890 --> 06:31.930]  And if not, then nobody gets charged.
[06:32.030 --> 06:32.730]  Nobody loses anything.
[06:32.730 --> 06:36.490]  So it's a great way to sort of put out your own independent projects.
[06:38.430 --> 06:45.670]  She's not here today, but our friend Gus and I recently did one for the media show, which is the media literacy show that we work on.
[06:45.790 --> 06:46.670]  And it went well.
[06:46.810 --> 06:49.050]  And it was very successful.
[06:49.210 --> 06:49.810]  It's a great way.
[06:50.030 --> 06:56.830]  There are like celebrities and all sorts of people now using Kickstarter to do what they need to do.
[06:58.470 --> 07:00.850]  So you mentioned a three-city tour in Africa.
[07:00.950 --> 07:01.910]  What are the other two cities?
[07:02.150 --> 07:04.630]  Oh, it's a three-day hackerspace, not three cities.
[07:04.630 --> 07:05.850]  So I'll just be in Cairo.
[07:05.950 --> 07:07.870]  But of course, I'll have to see the pyramids and stuff, too.
[07:08.170 --> 07:10.330]  So are there other hackerspaces in Africa?
[07:11.030 --> 07:12.850]  There are very few in all of Africa.
[07:13.050 --> 07:18.290]  There's hackerspaces in pretty much all continents except for Antarctica.
[07:18.890 --> 07:20.230]  And that's a mistake, too.
[07:20.630 --> 07:20.930]  Yeah.
[07:20.930 --> 07:22.950]  Of course, there could be a hackerspace in Antarctica.
[07:23.250 --> 07:24.610]  I mean, there should be one on the moon.
[07:24.910 --> 07:26.210]  There should be everywhere.
[07:26.310 --> 07:29.890]  Everywhere, people want an opportunity to lead more fulfilling lives.
[07:29.890 --> 07:33.030]  So if there are people on the moon, we need more fulfillment there, too.
[07:33.230 --> 07:34.870]  Any hackerspaces in South Africa?
[07:36.150 --> 07:38.410]  There's one in Durban, I think.
[07:38.570 --> 07:38.810]  Okay.
[07:39.010 --> 07:42.730]  But you can check on hackerspaces.org where they all list themselves.
[07:42.730 --> 07:53.410]  And you'll see a huge, gaping hole of land mass, whereas, like, North America is obliterated by little pins where hackerspaces are, and same with Europe.
[07:54.370 --> 07:54.830]  Yeah.
[07:54.890 --> 07:59.150]  So we need to get them in places where people really need them, like Africa.
[07:59.610 --> 07:59.830]  Okay.
[08:00.150 --> 08:06.110]  Now, I don't know if we've talked to you after the chaos camp that took place in Germany last, well, this August.
[08:06.890 --> 08:11.510]  How did it rank as far as the various hacker events you've been to?
[08:11.510 --> 08:14.250]  It was one of the best times of my whole life.
[08:14.470 --> 08:18.710]  I don't know how it ranked for you, but, yeah, that was incredibly high.
[08:19.590 --> 08:26.510]  I, with the help of a lot of people, set up a hardware hacking tent, which was the size of a small Kmart, just about.
[08:26.710 --> 08:37.570]  And it was full almost the whole time of people lining up to learn to solder and make stuff and people fixing projects that they brought there that didn't quite work out and everyone helping one another.
[08:37.570 --> 08:43.890]  I even did a workshop with a popular request of a bunch of parents there.
[08:44.570 --> 08:48.410]  Twenty four-year-olds learned to solder in one workshop towards the end of camp.
[08:48.550 --> 08:50.670]  Well, by the time you reach 24, I guess you should know how to solder.
[08:51.230 --> 08:52.890]  Twenty four-year-olds learning to...
[08:52.890 --> 08:54.690]  Twenty four-year-olds.
[08:54.970 --> 08:55.430]  Twenty four-year-olds.
[08:55.570 --> 08:56.350]  Oh, oh, wait.
[08:56.450 --> 09:01.230]  No, you're saying there were 20 individuals, all of whom were four years old.
[09:01.270 --> 09:01.670]  Exactly.
[09:01.670 --> 09:03.370]  And you were teaching them to solder?
[09:03.570 --> 09:04.210]  Yeah, yeah.
[09:04.470 --> 09:08.130]  A four-year-old with soldering irons and soldering guns running around.
[09:09.030 --> 09:09.430]  Wow.
[09:09.530 --> 09:12.910]  And a lot of them are now turning TVs off and enjoying the hell out of it.
[09:13.050 --> 09:15.710]  Yeah, you know, I've heard the news reports about that.
[09:16.130 --> 09:19.350]  That's sort of an army of TV BeGone people out there.
[09:19.530 --> 09:20.430]  Well, that's pretty cool.
[09:20.570 --> 09:21.070]  That's pretty cool.
[09:21.250 --> 09:25.590]  Hey, also, we've had some listeners asking about the new TV BeGone.
[09:26.070 --> 09:28.490]  Has it arrived in our shores yet?
[09:28.630 --> 09:29.670]  It finally has.
[09:29.670 --> 09:37.530]  Just as of three days ago, the slow boat from China made its way to New York Harbor, and it's in my warehouse in New Jersey.
[09:37.830 --> 09:43.150]  Okay, so those of you who are bringing lawyers to the station about the premiums, that you can just hold off a little bit.
[09:43.150 --> 09:43.710]  They're coming.
[09:43.950 --> 09:45.730]  We're going to send them to everybody who pledged for them.
[09:45.830 --> 09:46.690]  You're going to get them.
[09:46.850 --> 09:48.430]  And tell us how awesome they are.
[09:48.610 --> 09:49.510]  They're totally awesome.
[09:49.630 --> 09:54.050]  They'll turn off TVs from 100 meters away, and they look like a smartphone.
[09:54.050 --> 10:01.490]  No one will ever know that it's something that turns TVs off, and you can make the world a better place everywhere you go.
[10:01.730 --> 10:04.850]  100 meters for the Americans in the audience is almost 4,000 inches.
[10:06.450 --> 10:11.290]  It's a football field of whatever kind of football you think of when you think of it.
[10:11.370 --> 10:15.470]  And you can turn off the football game on the television set when someone thinks to turn that on.
[10:15.950 --> 10:22.350]  All right, speaking of smartphones, we have a very interesting story, and this is something you might have heard of.
[10:22.910 --> 10:27.490]  It actually was, I believe, in the New York Times today, among many other places.
[10:28.910 --> 10:30.310]  Now, I don't have a smartphone.
[10:30.330 --> 10:31.250]  I don't have an iPhone.
[10:31.250 --> 10:32.030]  I don't have any of that.
[10:32.130 --> 10:33.710]  But there are games.
[10:33.870 --> 10:35.970]  There are games that come out that people play.
[10:36.090 --> 10:36.850]  I hear about them.
[10:36.930 --> 10:40.710]  I hear about Angry Birds and various other things like that.
[10:40.710 --> 10:43.110]  But here's one.
[10:43.230 --> 10:46.830]  Here's an app that was released yesterday.
[10:47.130 --> 10:48.490]  And listen to this.
[10:48.710 --> 10:52.090]  This is a press release that actually was sent over to us.
[10:52.430 --> 11:03.930]  To the great surprise of its creators, a funny new iPhone game critical of Apple's human rights record was accepted by the iTunes Store and is being released today.
[11:03.930 --> 11:04.750]  That was yesterday.
[11:05.270 --> 11:13.830]  The app called Phone Story teaches players about abuses in the life cycle of the iPhone by putting them in the manufacturer's shoes.
[11:14.450 --> 11:15.050]  Okay?
[11:15.470 --> 11:20.150]  To win, players must enslave children in Congolese mines.
[11:21.710 --> 11:23.350]  You look amazed, Mitch.
[11:23.530 --> 11:23.690]  Yeah.
[11:23.810 --> 11:26.030]  This is how your smartphone is made.
[11:26.830 --> 11:31.290]  You must catch suicidal workers jumping out of Chinese assembly plant windows.
[11:32.350 --> 11:39.130]  You must conscript the poorest of the world's poor to dismantle toxic e-waste resulting from obsolete phones.
[11:39.670 --> 11:40.870]  Sounds like a great game, right?
[11:41.030 --> 11:42.810]  Especially to play it on a smartphone.
[11:43.050 --> 11:47.130]  The seriously funny new game will sell for a certain amount.
[11:47.210 --> 11:48.730]  We're not going to give the price out over the radio.
[11:48.850 --> 11:49.710]  It would be in bad taste.
[11:50.150 --> 11:51.990]  But you can sell it on iTunes.
[11:53.050 --> 11:54.170]  Why did I say it that way?
[11:54.290 --> 11:54.610]  iTunes.
[11:55.310 --> 12:00.490]  All proceeds will go to organizations fighting to stop the horrors that smartphone production causes.
[12:01.010 --> 12:05.670]  Now, basically, this was put out by an organization called the Yes Lab.
[12:06.050 --> 12:11.150]  They set aside 40 days and 40 nights to reach their goal on the aforementioned Kickstarter.
[12:11.710 --> 12:18.150]  But with the help of various people that press releases were emailed to, they got there in just five days.
[12:18.350 --> 12:19.370]  Five days, yes.
[12:20.550 --> 12:22.370]  Now, since our...
[12:22.370 --> 12:23.690]  This is from their press release.
[12:23.810 --> 12:36.690]  Since our fundraising appeal is doing so well, we're launching our very own curated page on Kickstarter to support other cool projects like Beautiful Trouble, an activism manual and website written by over 40 troublemakers from around the world, including the Yes Men.
[12:37.390 --> 12:43.710]  Beautiful Trouble's goal is to put the best tactics for creative action in the hands of the next generation of change makers.
[12:44.350 --> 12:47.250]  Anyway, back to the whole phone thing.
[12:47.630 --> 12:51.190]  Would you like to force an African child to mine for precious metals at gunpoint?
[12:51.330 --> 12:58.930]  Phone Story, a new iPhone app produced by Mole Industria, puts the player in the unsavory shoes of a smartphone executive.
[12:59.130 --> 13:04.190]  Each level in the game explores a different real-life problem in the consumer electronics life cycle.
[13:04.330 --> 13:16.430]  Slavery and abuse in Colton mines, suicide-inducing manufacturing plants, and health-destroying e-waste processing are reduced to acute low-res aesthetic driven by simple, addictive game play.
[13:16.430 --> 13:21.570]  And again, as we mentioned, that game was available in the iTunes store as of yesterday.
[13:22.130 --> 13:36.930]  Now, game developers Paolo Pedercini and Michael Pinschke said, we wanted to get this story into the hands of consumers on the shiny devices we love to use but are causing this depraved, destructive cycle.
[13:37.850 --> 13:42.530]  The site provides links to organizations with campaigns to hold phone makers accountable for their horrors.
[13:42.750 --> 13:45.350]  100% of proceeds go directly to such organizations.
[13:45.350 --> 13:52.190]  Now, Apple has a well-documented and controversial history of keeping apps that they don't agree with out of the hands of consumers.
[13:52.190 --> 13:56.850]  So it came as a big surprise to the creators when the iPhone store accepted this one.
[13:57.190 --> 14:05.350]  And according to Paolo Pedercini, if this simply slipped under their radar, we can't wait to see how they respond.
[14:05.910 --> 14:09.410]  If it's creative enough, we might have to build a whole other level.
[14:09.990 --> 14:12.230]  So, guess what?
[14:12.230 --> 14:17.190]  But it did make it to the iTunes store and then it was taken down.
[14:17.590 --> 14:22.910]  Yeah, it was taken down, I guess, as soon as they realized what was going on.
[14:23.030 --> 14:29.670]  It was pulled from the iTunes app store Tuesday, 11.35 a.m., only a few hours after its official announcement.
[14:30.130 --> 14:34.430]  Apple explained that the game is in violation of the following guidelines.
[14:34.430 --> 14:39.010]  Apps that depict violence or abuse of children, apps that present...
[14:39.010 --> 14:40.350]  Can I just interrupt you?
[14:40.450 --> 14:40.970]  Yes, please.
[14:41.370 --> 14:57.130]  And it's probably obvious to all of our listeners, but just in case some of them are not so bright, Apple has no problem selling you a telephone that is made in part due to the abuse of real children, the real abuse of real children.
[14:57.290 --> 15:03.790]  But once you've gone through this whole process and obtained the actual phone, they don't want you to see images of abused children.
[15:03.890 --> 15:04.750]  That makes sense to me, yeah.
[15:04.810 --> 15:05.590]  Even if it's fun.
[15:05.750 --> 15:09.610]  Because it's on your phone and people don't want to be reminded of bad things on their phones.
[15:10.150 --> 15:17.330]  But the other three items, apps that present excessively objectionable or crude content will be rejected.
[15:17.590 --> 15:22.330]  Apps that include the ability to make donations to recognize charitable organizations must be free.
[15:22.630 --> 15:26.930]  And the collection of donations must be done via a website in Safari or SMS.
[15:27.550 --> 15:30.710]  Now, we're going to be speaking with one of the coordinators in just a moment.
[15:30.710 --> 15:36.130]  But first, I want to play some excerpts from the game itself as it appeared on a smartphone yesterday.
[15:36.130 --> 15:38.410]  Let's see if this actually comes up on our computer here.
[15:39.110 --> 15:39.890]  We have audio?
[15:41.290 --> 15:42.470]  Okay, I think this is working.
[15:43.130 --> 15:48.670]  Joining us, let me tell you the story of this phone while I provide you with quality entertainment.
[15:55.420 --> 15:59.060]  Once upon a time, there are minerals resting in the bowels of the earth.
[16:00.100 --> 16:05.120]  One of these minerals, called koltan, is found in most electronic devices.
[16:06.540 --> 16:14.580]  The majority of koltan's world supply is located in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, a country torn by a brutal civil war.
[16:15.400 --> 16:20.340]  The increasing demand of koltan produced a wave of violence and massacres in the Congo.
[16:21.760 --> 16:27.360]  Military groups enslaved prisoners of war, often children, to mine the precious material.
[16:29.380 --> 16:33.860]  Directly or not, we are all involved in this complex, illegal traffic.
[16:39.970 --> 16:46.330]  Like most electronic gadgets, this phone was assembled in China, inside a factory as big as a city.
[16:46.330 --> 16:51.590]  The people working there are constantly subjected to abuse and discrimination.
[16:52.150 --> 16:56.830]  They work in inhumane conditions, and are forced into illegal overtime.
[16:58.370 --> 17:04.190]  Over the span of a few months, more than 20 workers committed suicide out of extreme desperation.
[17:05.750 --> 17:09.830]  We addressed this issue by installing suicide prevention nets.
[17:20.040 --> 17:22.140]  Then, you purchased this phone.
[17:22.620 --> 17:24.560]  It was new and sexy.
[17:25.220 --> 17:27.360]  You've waited for it for months.
[17:27.640 --> 17:30.740]  No evidence of its troubling past was visible.
[17:31.320 --> 17:32.820]  Did you really need it?
[17:33.680 --> 17:34.900]  Of course you did.
[17:35.100 --> 17:38.460]  We invested a lot of money to instill this desire in you.
[17:39.380 --> 17:45.660]  You were looking for something that could signal your status, your dynamic lifestyle, your unique personality.
[17:47.300 --> 17:49.140]  Just like everyone else.
[17:57.920 --> 17:59.840]  You didn't meet the goal.
[18:00.060 --> 18:02.200]  Don't pretend you are not complicit.
[18:04.800 --> 18:07.440]  Okay, that's the message you get if you quit the game early.
[18:07.440 --> 18:09.300]  Then, you purchased this phone.
[18:09.440 --> 18:16.320]  There were some graphical images of people jumping out of windows, and you're supposed to try and catch them in nets.
[18:17.020 --> 18:27.220]  This particular part, which followed that, shows, I guess, a merchant, a smartphone merchant, tossing phones at advancing consumers.
[18:27.840 --> 18:36.400]  And the goal is to point the phone at them and hit them with it so that they go away and go away with their smartphone.
[18:38.080 --> 18:46.240]  It's really an incredible thing to see this and to realize that it was on a phone, even for a short period of time.
[18:47.140 --> 18:48.240]  Here's another part of the game.
[18:48.320 --> 18:52.160]  Soon, we'll introduce a new model that will make this one look antiquated.
[18:53.220 --> 18:54.700]  And you will discard it.
[18:54.920 --> 18:58.400]  It will join tons of highly toxic electronic waste.
[19:00.620 --> 19:04.960]  Okay, and that's the phone story right there.
[19:05.340 --> 19:11.740]  Now, joining us on the phone right now is Michael Panischke, one of the coordinators of Phone Story.
[19:11.800 --> 19:12.400]  Are you with us, Michael?
[19:14.700 --> 19:15.680]  Is Michael with us?
[19:16.420 --> 19:16.880]  You are?
[19:17.300 --> 19:17.620]  Yes.
[19:17.780 --> 19:18.380]  Hello, how are you today?
[19:18.400 --> 19:18.720]  Ah, there you are.
[19:18.800 --> 19:19.040]  Okay.
[19:20.040 --> 19:21.920]  Hopefully, we didn't give away the entire game.
[19:22.560 --> 19:24.340]  Is there more to it, or is that the whole thing?
[19:25.140 --> 19:26.660]  There's a little bit more to it.
[19:27.300 --> 19:34.880]  You showed those four levels, and you keep repeating, and the game gets harder and harder as new smartphones come out.
[19:35.140 --> 19:40.100]  And eventually, it gets so difficult that you just can't win, and it maxes out.
[19:40.620 --> 19:40.960]  Incredible.
[19:41.340 --> 19:47.300]  Now, tell us something about, before we get into Apple's reaction to this, something about the history, how this developed.
[19:48.480 --> 19:56.760]  It was developed in the context of the Yes Lab, and there was a little bit of press about the Foxconn suicides, which we address in the game.
[19:57.260 --> 20:09.380]  And I was just sitting there, and I was thinking, wouldn't it be great if there was an app in which you had to save the jumping, people jumping out of a factory from desperation of, you know, working 18-hour days, doing repetitive motion.
[20:10.800 --> 20:19.860]  So, then the Yes Lab thought that was a good idea, and they hooked us up, or we hooked up with Molle and Asuya, and he started working on making it real.
[20:20.900 --> 20:22.900]  And so that's how it came into being.
[20:23.180 --> 20:25.920]  Now, was the intention always to make this an app for the iPhone?
[20:27.100 --> 20:34.360]  Well, yeah, well, a video game, and then, you know, that developed into we should also make it an app, and we should make it, you know, where we should distribute it.
[20:34.860 --> 20:44.420]  So, that was the main goal, because it was, you know, it would be perfect to have people holding the iPhone, or the, whatever smartphone that they have, and looking at it, and saying, oh my gosh, so this is where this comes from.
[20:44.960 --> 20:52.680]  Well, now, when I saw the release yesterday, you really seemed surprised that Apple had accepted it.
[20:52.820 --> 20:54.500]  Why do you think they initially accepted it?
[20:55.640 --> 20:58.000]  Well, maybe, I mean, I don't know.
[20:58.100 --> 21:01.540]  I mean, they shouldn't have, there's no reason why they shouldn't have accepted it.
[21:01.540 --> 21:04.920]  So, we were just, we were just happy.
[21:06.320 --> 21:10.040]  And then we weren't surprised when they banned it, but they saw themselves in it.
[21:10.100 --> 21:11.880]  They weren't mentioned by name directly.
[21:12.040 --> 21:12.960]  There was no Apple in it.
[21:13.540 --> 21:20.300]  There's obviously, like, an allusion to an iPhone or an iStore, but it's not, there's none of their logos.
[21:20.300 --> 21:21.240]  We don't say iPhone.
[21:21.520 --> 21:26.280]  So, the terms of service that they said we violated are a little bit suspect.
[21:26.840 --> 21:28.980]  Well, yeah, let's go over those quickly.
[21:28.980 --> 21:36.900]  Now, Mike has already objected to the rule that says apps that depict violence or abuse of children will be rejected.
[21:37.280 --> 21:41.000]  Ironic, because that's exactly how these phones are developed in the first place.
[21:41.440 --> 21:44.340]  Yeah, that was a, that's exactly, that's a great point, yeah.
[21:44.640 --> 21:44.840]  Uh-huh.
[21:45.620 --> 21:56.780]  Are there any other apps that they currently have that might fit that categorization of depicting violence or implying violence or anything like that?
[21:57.240 --> 22:03.000]  Well, there's definitely a lot of, you know, war shooting games that they have out there, and they're pretty, they're pretty graphic.
[22:04.520 --> 22:08.320]  So, there, you know, there's some more disturbing games out there, I think.
[22:08.500 --> 22:11.700]  And those are perfectly okay as far as, as far as Apple is concerned.
[22:11.880 --> 22:18.520]  You can shoot people in foreign countries as far as they're concerned, but you can't show what they do to get their materials.
[22:18.720 --> 22:19.000]  Interesting.
[22:19.340 --> 22:24.480]  Now, the second point, apps that present excessively objectionable or crude content will be rejected.
[22:24.480 --> 22:25.660]  What does that even mean?
[22:26.580 --> 22:28.240]  Yeah, that's really up to them, isn't it?
[22:29.620 --> 22:36.460]  So, yeah, that shows just what, it must be objectionable to them, but, I mean, they saw themselves in the game, so they found it objectionable.
[22:36.620 --> 22:40.020]  I mean, truth-telling is, nobody likes it when they're in power.
[22:41.220 --> 22:50.060]  I think one of the things about these guidelines, and I'd never actually read them before, but I read them, you know, after I heard about your game.
[22:50.620 --> 22:53.980]  They're really long, and they're, a lot of them are really vague.
[22:55.140 --> 23:01.160]  Probably many of the apps that are currently in the store could be said if you read one of the guidelines to violate them.
[23:01.300 --> 23:05.360]  So it really gives them this sort of discretionary power to ban whatever they want.
[23:06.900 --> 23:08.640]  And I'm sure that's intentional.
[23:09.260 --> 23:12.360]  Now, let's look at the ones involving donations.
[23:13.120 --> 23:18.260]  Apps that include the ability to make donations to recognize charitable organizations must be free.
[23:18.500 --> 23:25.020]  But in your app, correct me if I'm wrong, there isn't actually an ability to make a donation, correct?
[23:25.660 --> 23:28.560]  Yeah, there's no direct action in the game.
[23:28.780 --> 23:39.100]  So it's just, I mean, we refer people to the website where we have more information about what they can do, and then we just pledged that we would take all the profits that we got and donate it to organizations that fight this kind of stuff.
[23:39.260 --> 23:53.700]  So if somebody who made an app or a game or something for an iPhone said, by the way, for all the money that we make on this, we're going to give it to UNICEF or something like that, Apple, by this logic, would kick them off saying that, well, you don't,
[23:53.760 --> 24:03.640]  you're making a donation and you're not making that, you don't have the ability to make that free or something like that, even though they're just saying what they're going to do with the money they make.
[24:04.860 --> 24:05.220]  Yes.
[24:05.520 --> 24:05.740]  Okay.
[24:06.060 --> 24:08.600]  So they would, yeah, I imagine that they would do that, but...
[24:08.600 --> 24:09.220]  By that logic.
[24:09.500 --> 24:14.400]  And then the final one, the collection of donations must be done via a website in Safari or an SMS.
[24:14.400 --> 24:16.100]  I'm not even sure I understand what that means.
[24:16.560 --> 24:26.600]  I think Safari is their proprietary web browser, so SMS is a, I'm not sure, another way to donate via, I believe, text?
[24:26.620 --> 24:27.140]  I'm not sure.
[24:27.880 --> 24:28.240]  Okay.
[24:28.800 --> 24:31.080]  Well, all right, so tell us what happened.
[24:32.280 --> 24:39.380]  Yesterday, you were up, I assume there were parties going on and all kinds of celebrations and all of a sudden, how did you get word that they were taking it off?
[24:39.400 --> 24:40.660]  They sent you some kind of email or something?
[24:41.640 --> 24:49.000]  Yeah, Paolo received, I believe he received a call, and then Paolo was the, from all the industry, I guess, the designer and he made the game.
[24:49.940 --> 24:57.580]  He got a call and I believe an email which kind of outlined the, you know, they gave them the four terms that they said he had violated.
[24:59.560 --> 25:05.720]  And, yeah, he just made an announcement and said, oh, we're out of, we're banned from the app store now.
[25:07.080 --> 25:20.800]  Now, did you find that when you initially released the game, was there a lot of interest, a lot of publicity in it, and then when it was kicked off, was there a lot more interest and publicity?
[25:21.420 --> 25:29.360]  There was a little bit at the get-go, which was pleasing, and then when they banned it, of course, that's when it blew up, so.
[25:30.000 --> 25:30.660]  Streisand effect.
[25:31.420 --> 25:32.320]  Streisand effect, indeed.
[25:32.640 --> 25:38.460]  So, basically, Apple is helping publicize this game that they're banning by banning it in the first place.
[25:39.400 --> 25:39.840]  Yeah.
[25:40.140 --> 25:40.720]  You know, thanks.
[25:40.720 --> 25:41.420]  Yeah.
[25:43.100 --> 25:43.600]  Unreal.
[25:43.880 --> 25:45.100]  So, okay, so what are you guys going to do now?
[25:46.000 --> 25:56.100]  Well, we currently have a version for the Android market that's out there and being well-received by more open-minded individuals, I suppose.
[25:56.620 --> 25:56.840]  All right.
[25:57.000 --> 26:01.200]  So, they haven't banned us, and we've been there since this morning, so we'll see what happens there.
[26:02.440 --> 26:02.940]  Okay.
[26:03.140 --> 26:09.400]  Well, do the Android apps get banned on the same criteria, or is it a lot harder to get banned?
[26:10.280 --> 26:13.160]  I just believe they're a little more open thus far.
[26:13.880 --> 26:15.540]  Now, I know people here have Android phones.
[26:15.620 --> 26:16.540]  Anybody download the game yet?
[26:16.680 --> 26:17.220]  Mike, you have it?
[26:17.320 --> 26:17.920]  Yeah, I have a copy.
[26:18.060 --> 26:18.520]  You have a copy.
[26:18.620 --> 26:19.060]  Okay, great.
[26:19.340 --> 26:20.000]  Have you played it yet?
[26:20.140 --> 26:20.540]  Did you win?
[26:20.580 --> 26:21.640]  You know, so I downloaded it.
[26:21.900 --> 26:28.640]  It got released this morning, and I was at work today, and I downloaded it, and I launched it, and started talking, so I had to, you know, not do that at work.
[26:28.700 --> 26:30.840]  People at work know that you're downloading games while you're working?
[26:31.020 --> 26:31.880]  Yeah, yeah.
[26:32.460 --> 26:34.600]  But I look forward to playing it later this evening.
[26:34.780 --> 26:35.400]  Okay, that right.
[26:35.400 --> 26:47.500]  Yeah, in my personal experience, it has appeared as if the Android market is a bit more lenient towards what's allowed in the market versus, you know, the Apple application market.
[26:47.500 --> 26:58.840]  But also, phone companies can try to lock things out for their particular set of customers, so it's always possible that maybe some customers might be locked out and not others.
[26:59.020 --> 27:04.220]  Now, Voltaire, I know you have an iPhone, and I understand that you've already started proceedings to return your iPhone.
[27:04.380 --> 27:06.520]  Well, I'm sorry, but, you know, people need to know.
[27:07.440 --> 27:11.000]  You're going to be returning your iPhone and demanding a refund?
[27:11.300 --> 27:15.080]  Yes, and replacing it with an equally problematic Android phone.
[27:15.080 --> 27:24.100]  Yeah, well, I mean, that's an important point to make, is that they're each as guilty as far as the evils of this game portray.
[27:24.360 --> 27:30.000]  But let me ask, is this something that any cell phone is guilty of, not just smartphones?
[27:31.040 --> 27:32.940]  Yeah, there's some companies that are...
[27:32.940 --> 27:33.240]  Oh, sorry.
[27:33.400 --> 27:34.160]  I don't know if you're asking me.
[27:34.160 --> 27:35.540]  There's some companies that are better than others.
[27:35.720 --> 27:38.040]  But yeah, it's for smartphones, basically.
[27:38.700 --> 27:41.380]  Okay, what is it about smartphones that makes that unique?
[27:42.560 --> 27:45.580]  For, well, I mean, the factory part, a lot about source labor.
[27:45.760 --> 27:50.580]  But for the coal pan, you know, a lot of that comes from the DRC.
[27:51.040 --> 27:58.740]  And then, you know, other precious metals like tungsten and gold are all mined across the world in similar situations.
[27:59.500 --> 28:02.880]  And they get all bought up by the big companies.
[28:03.020 --> 28:05.260]  So there's a problem, a systemic problem.
[28:05.260 --> 28:19.400]  So that's also what the game addresses is kind of our, you know, our world economic system and this kind of Chicago school policy that throughout drives this ideology that we can just continue living at a ridiculous pace during the environment and people.
[28:19.580 --> 28:21.180]  Why is this coal tan?
[28:21.340 --> 28:24.060]  Why is that essential for smartphones?
[28:25.060 --> 28:25.860]  Or is it?
[28:26.640 --> 28:29.000]  I am not sure it's...
[28:29.000 --> 28:31.980]  They use it, I believe, in the processor.
[28:32.400 --> 28:32.900]  Right.
[28:33.040 --> 28:33.860]  I'm not sure.
[28:33.860 --> 28:33.880]  Sure.
[28:34.400 --> 28:36.100]  Emmanuel, I know the answer to that question.
[28:36.240 --> 28:36.800]  Oh, go ahead, Bernie.
[28:38.240 --> 28:44.700]  Coal tan is a mineral which exists not only in the Congo but in other places, but a lot of it's mined from there.
[28:44.920 --> 28:55.520]  It's used in the manufacturing of cantalum capacitors, which are used not only in smartphones but in laptop computers, desktop computers, TV sets, automobiles.
[28:55.740 --> 29:04.140]  And as Michael does, as the game does point out, it's in virtually all consumer electronics products.
[29:04.140 --> 29:16.420]  I mean, I would argue that the smartphones use a lot less coal tan in them than a laptop computer or a desktop computer or a TV set because there's smaller and fewer cantalum capacitors in a smartphone.
[29:16.420 --> 29:19.940]  I mean, it's good to educate consumers about this, and it is a real problem.
[29:20.180 --> 29:23.340]  Are they disposed of at the same rate as smartphones?
[29:24.000 --> 29:25.180]  Well, that's a good question.
[29:25.760 --> 29:41.360]  I would just, again, argue the mass of the amount of... the mass of tantalum capacitors in a smartphone is probably small compared to that of a laptop computer or a TV or a computer or a desktop computer, you know, or even a car that has a lot of computers in it.
[29:42.420 --> 29:52.360]  And, yeah, people do retire their smartphones every couple years or so, but people also get new laptops and other consumer electronics products on a fairly rapid cycle.
[29:52.740 --> 29:55.580]  So, you know, I don't think we should be focusing on smartphones.
[29:55.760 --> 30:05.320]  I think we should be talking about the use of, you know, tantalum and other materials in electronic... consumer electronics products in general, don't we?
[30:05.320 --> 30:15.080]  For people who are interested in the topic, particularly of Coltan, I just actually this week watched our friend Bicycles Mark's talk.
[30:15.300 --> 30:24.760]  He gave a talk at the Chaos Camp about a project called Fairphone, which is trying to mine these minerals without torturing anyone.
[30:25.080 --> 30:30.160]  And so if you go to his website, which is citizenreporter.org, you can learn a lot more about the topic.
[30:31.020 --> 30:36.140]  Bernie, I just want to point out, like, that there are also quite a few more of these phones.
[30:36.380 --> 30:38.740]  And as you said, the life cycle is a bit shorter.
[30:39.220 --> 30:44.560]  Some countries, people have phones more so than they would have a computer at home or a laptop or something.
[30:44.980 --> 30:45.280]  True.
[30:46.520 --> 30:47.700]  Well, yeah, that's true.
[30:47.780 --> 30:50.800]  But I would also like to, you know, agree with Bernie on this.
[30:50.960 --> 30:57.320]  I feel that the issue really is our obsession with having as many things as possible and as cheap as possible.
[30:57.320 --> 31:03.660]  So we end up, our entire electronics industry ends up being based on slavery in various parts of the world.
[31:04.260 --> 31:16.740]  You know, these cell phones might be recycled quicker, but if you do have other things that are larger, then you have to say, well, what is the ratio and how do enough of these devices get recycled to, you know, exceed it?
[31:16.800 --> 31:20.620]  And even still, it's still bad that your TV depends on this.
[31:21.420 --> 31:22.100]  Mitch, go ahead.
[31:22.100 --> 31:31.560]  Yeah, and as was pointed out in the narrative in the game, a lot of money has gone into manipulating all of us into desiring things we don't really want or need.
[31:32.360 --> 31:49.480]  And I also want to point out that, you know, there are certain chemicals that are definitely toxic waste when you throw these things, any electronics away, but it's a matter of degree there, depending on the design, things can be designed to minimize that.
[31:49.480 --> 31:55.940]  And also, where you manufacture has a huge amount of difference.
[31:56.260 --> 32:05.140]  So, Foxconn, where Apple makes all of the iPhones, is the most notorious for horrible treatment of people.
[32:05.760 --> 32:16.760]  And it really is true that the solution to people committing suicide out of desperation was to put nets in the way of people jumping and hitting anything hard.
[32:16.960 --> 32:17.920]  So, that's real.
[32:18.060 --> 32:18.920]  That's real.
[32:18.920 --> 32:20.640]  Michael, that really happened in China.
[32:21.540 --> 32:22.380]  Yeah, that's...
[32:22.380 --> 32:23.620]  I mean, we saw that news story.
[32:23.740 --> 32:26.600]  We thought, you know, people need to know about this, and we...
[32:26.600 --> 32:28.620]  That's how the game started.
[32:28.880 --> 32:30.620]  See, what I find incredible is...
[32:30.620 --> 32:33.620]  We mentioned people throwing out electronics all the time.
[32:34.020 --> 32:39.120]  Why don't people hold on to electronics, or at least give them to somebody else that might not have any electronics?
[32:39.420 --> 32:41.600]  I mean, I've been carrying the same phone around for many years.
[32:41.600 --> 32:45.100]  I know people who hold on to technology, who collect old computers.
[32:45.100 --> 32:46.900]  And it's fascinating.
[32:47.100 --> 32:47.460]  It's interesting.
[32:47.680 --> 32:50.900]  It doesn't always have to be about having the fastest or the best.
[32:51.600 --> 32:55.580]  Sometimes just having some bit of technology is really kind of cool.
[32:55.740 --> 33:01.380]  Well, a lot of money goes into manipulating all of us into buying things we don't want or need.
[33:01.380 --> 33:05.240]  It's glitzy, it's fancy, it's sexy, as was pointing out in the narrative of the game.
[33:05.460 --> 33:17.760]  But, you know, all the media surrounding us is telling us that we're defined by these things that we buy, and we're totally uncool if we don't have them, and we're totally uncool even if we have them and they're old.
[33:18.180 --> 33:21.180]  And we buy that on some deep emotional level.
[33:23.360 --> 33:24.160]  Redhack, you're here.
[33:24.400 --> 33:24.740]  Yes.
[33:24.740 --> 33:33.380]  I just wanted to mention the talk that Mike mentioned by Bicycle Mark, if anyone wanted to look up the video of it, it's called, Is This the Mobile Gadget World We Created?
[33:33.700 --> 33:35.220]  I went to it, too, and it was pretty interesting.
[33:35.420 --> 33:35.640]  Cool.
[33:35.760 --> 33:36.240]  It's worth watching.
[33:36.260 --> 33:39.220]  And that was from the chaos camp that we've been discussing.
[33:39.480 --> 33:41.300]  Now, Michael, let me ask you.
[33:41.400 --> 33:44.180]  Okay, so we've brought up all these issues.
[33:44.460 --> 33:49.300]  Maybe people listening are hearing about it for the first time and realizing that, yeah, they're uncomplicit as well.
[33:50.260 --> 33:51.760]  What can people do at this point?
[33:52.680 --> 34:04.160]  Well, currently, I mean, for each level in the game on our website, there's a little tab, and it kind of, at the bottom, it talks about things that can be done and groups that are doing things about it.
[34:04.280 --> 34:19.880]  So there's different, for conflict minerals, there's different groups like enoughproject.org, and they work on direct action, getting Congress to pass conflict mineral legislation, and there's problems with that, but that's, you know, there's also a lot of good that can be done.
[34:19.880 --> 34:31.560]  And then there's workers' organizations, groups for the Foxconn level, and then there's all kinds of stuff about, like you were talking about the chaos camp, about anti-consumer or media manipulation.
[34:32.440 --> 34:35.540]  We have some stuff about that, and then recycling.
[34:35.540 --> 34:40.220]  There's a little bit of stuff about how you could recycle the phones better, or electronics.
[34:40.500 --> 34:42.640]  And tell us where your website is.
[34:44.260 --> 34:48.280]  PhoneStory.org is the phone, the game's website.
[34:48.480 --> 34:49.800]  PhoneStory.org.
[34:50.020 --> 34:50.560]  Go ahead, Mitch.
[34:50.780 --> 35:03.500]  Yeah, so I also want to point out that, you know, by consumers pressuring manufacturers, they do not need to manufacture at places as bad as Foxconn.
[35:03.620 --> 35:10.340]  There's a whole gamut, a whole range of different ways that people are treated at manufacturers in China.
[35:11.080 --> 35:15.900]  So TV Be Gone that I make is made in a manufacturer in China.
[35:16.180 --> 35:22.040]  And I chose the one that I chose because they treat their people really well.
[35:23.360 --> 35:28.080]  There's even a chef that makes food for these people, the food that they want.
[35:28.680 --> 35:30.300]  They get paid really well.
[35:30.420 --> 35:33.540]  They're trained really well to make higher quality.
[35:33.540 --> 35:35.540]  And they don't want to lose their investments.
[35:35.880 --> 35:38.360]  So people, there's so many contract manufacturers in China.
[35:38.520 --> 35:39.900]  People can quit one and go to another.
[35:40.440 --> 35:43.640]  So they want to keep the people that they have.
[35:43.740 --> 35:46.520]  And there are a bunch of places that treat their people well.
[35:46.660 --> 35:47.400]  They're in a minority.
[35:48.140 --> 35:49.040]  But they're there.
[35:49.140 --> 35:51.260]  And the difference in price is so little.
[35:51.560 --> 36:00.860]  The difference in price between this rock bottom kind of a place like Foxconn and the place that I chose is maybe 20 cents per unit.
[36:01.300 --> 36:05.160]  And for me, that is incredibly worth that 20 cents.
[36:05.480 --> 36:11.480]  I'm making a product that I make to make life better for people and not at the expense of others.
[36:11.700 --> 36:16.000]  And other manufacturers, other companies can choose to do the same.
[36:16.000 --> 36:20.440]  And if enough consumers pressure the companies, then they can choose so also.
[36:21.080 --> 36:37.520]  Mitch makes a really good point because our... based on the designs of our devices shows where our priorities are, if we really care more about human rights than, say, 20 cents for, you know, what the example he gave, you know, we can easily try to make that switch.
[36:37.940 --> 36:39.280]  You know, the fact that we...
[36:39.280 --> 36:49.460]  if people really care about this, they should try pressuring people because, you know, there's no reason why our lives, what some of these devices need to be based on such horrific things.
[36:50.080 --> 36:50.780]  Hey, Manuel.
[36:51.000 --> 36:51.380]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[36:51.920 --> 37:07.900]  I just want to say it's a complicated problem because unless a manufacturer or unless a contractor who contracts with a manufacturer also looks deep into the supply chain as to where they're sourcing their semiconductors from, in this case, for instance,
[37:08.020 --> 37:22.600]  their tantalum capacitors, where those tantalum capacitors are coming from and where the distributors are getting them from and where the manufacturer... I mean, it goes all the way back to the manufacturer of the tantalum capacitors and where they buy the materials from on a day-to-day basis,
[37:22.600 --> 37:24.240]  from which mines in which countries.
[37:24.500 --> 37:26.360]  I mean, it's a really complex problem.
[37:26.540 --> 37:43.220]  So it may be more effective, really, to... or at least part of the way to solve this problem is to look at the source, where the problem is actually happening in the mines of Congo and places like that, and try to address the problems at their source.
[37:45.360 --> 38:02.800]  And I think that what Mitch mentioned about the 20 cents per unit cost to get a better place that treats its workers well, I think it says a lot that the larger companies that are just looking at the numbers and not looking at the human cost, that saving that 20 cents is worth it to them to deal with somebody like Foxconn.
[38:03.140 --> 38:07.460]  And it says a lot about the people in charge of the large companies that are in charge of a lot of what we do.
[38:08.000 --> 38:09.920]  We're speaking with Michael Paneschi.
[38:10.380 --> 38:11.620]  Am I pronouncing your name right, Michael?
[38:12.300 --> 38:13.740]  It's close to Paneschi, but yeah.
[38:13.840 --> 38:14.360]  Okay, Paneschi.
[38:14.900 --> 38:23.320]  And you're one of the coordinators of the phone story app that appeared for a brief time yesterday on the iPhones, iTunes.
[38:23.700 --> 38:25.620]  What happens if somebody bought the app?
[38:25.740 --> 38:27.160]  I don't have an iPhone, so I don't know how it works.
[38:27.260 --> 38:31.600]  But if somebody purchased that app, did it get wiped from their phone, or do they still have it?
[38:32.160 --> 38:33.500]  They still have it, yeah.
[38:33.720 --> 38:37.340]  So they have a pretty rare collector's edition and game.
[38:37.640 --> 38:40.060]  Now, can they beam that to other iPhones?
[38:40.260 --> 38:41.560]  Can they share it with other people?
[38:42.880 --> 38:44.800]  I'm not sure if they can.
[38:44.900 --> 38:49.000]  I suppose if people know how to jailbreak them, I imagine they could share with each other.
[38:50.140 --> 38:51.920]  Now, you've gotten all kinds of publicity.
[38:52.140 --> 38:53.300]  You're in the New York Times today.
[38:54.040 --> 38:56.580]  What kinds of other media attention have you gotten?
[38:57.680 --> 39:02.960]  We've gotten quite a bit of positive reviews and mentions.
[39:03.220 --> 39:17.020]  I think Wired picked up Gizmodo and a couple of other guys at The Guardian, Washington Post, and a lot of blogs, and I guess are talking about it and reposting, which is great.
[39:17.240 --> 39:19.920]  And no official reaction from Apple?
[39:20.960 --> 39:21.880]  No, not really.
[39:21.960 --> 39:27.380]  I think they haven't officially commented on anything except for, you know, no comment.
[39:27.640 --> 39:30.280]  They violated the terms of service.
[39:30.400 --> 39:32.520]  And I think that's all that they really said to anybody.
[39:32.820 --> 39:39.400]  What I find interesting here is that Apple is no more guilty than any other manufacturer of smartphones.
[39:39.940 --> 39:50.800]  But their reaction makes them seem guiltier by being so restrictive and judging of something that might be a little bit critical of how they do something.
[39:51.100 --> 39:55.160]  And I think that's, that's a lesson that I think a lot of entities can learn.
[39:55.700 --> 39:58.380]  I disagree with you just slightly, Emmanuel.
[39:59.020 --> 40:11.860]  I think in the, excuse me, in the issues raised by the game, the mining and the manufacturing conditions and the marketing, you're right to say that Apple is no worse than any of the other manufacturers of telephones.
[40:12.880 --> 40:20.880]  But I think there is actually a substantive difference between Apple and mostly other companies in their censorship practices.
[40:21.460 --> 40:27.940]  And while it's not directly something that the game points out, it's, it's important as well.
[40:28.100 --> 40:37.940]  I thought that's what I said, that they, they basically judge more than, than say, but it's not just, it's not just this one game that they reject.
[40:37.940 --> 40:42.180]  They have a whole division of their company that's devoted to censorship.
[40:42.180 --> 40:46.900]  And that's the point I'm trying to make is that they, they are judging more than, than others.
[40:47.080 --> 40:47.820]  They're being more restrictive.
[40:48.580 --> 40:50.140]  Um, yeah, I think you agree with me.
[40:50.440 --> 40:50.640]  All right.
[40:50.720 --> 40:51.260]  You just don't know it.
[40:51.640 --> 40:52.020]  Uh, okay.
[40:52.280 --> 40:56.480]  Uh, taking phone calls, 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 100.
[40:56.820 --> 41:08.680]  Uh, we're, uh, speaking with, uh, uh, uh, Michael Baneshi, who is one of the coordinators of phone story, uh, which, uh, is it's available for Android is available for, for laptops at all.
[41:08.680 --> 41:10.840]  Even laptops are, are guilty in this as well.
[41:11.880 --> 41:13.380]  Uh, not, not as of yet.
[41:13.580 --> 41:16.980]  Um, I'm not sure what we're going to do with that, but we'll, we'll see.
[41:17.120 --> 41:20.520]  It might be, I think you may have, uh, really, uh, opened up a Pandora's box here.
[41:20.800 --> 41:22.260]  There's going to be a lot of demand for this.
[41:22.360 --> 41:24.220]  I'm sure there'll be a movie coming along.
[41:24.400 --> 41:25.280]  I mean, and I'm not kidding.
[41:25.480 --> 41:26.980]  This is a story that needs to be told.
[41:27.120 --> 41:32.020]  People need to know what, what goes into the manufacturing of these things that almost all of us carry around.
[41:32.300 --> 41:41.620]  Um, uh, Michael, a lot of developers that have been banned from the, the app store, uh, have turned to the Cydia store, which is, uh, the store for basically that it's not run by Apple.
[41:41.720 --> 41:42.680]  It's for jailbroken phones.
[41:42.800 --> 41:49.240]  Have you considered that as a place to put this app so that, uh, people with iPhones, uh, that are not controlled by Apple can, can get it?
[41:49.940 --> 41:53.680]  Yeah, we've gotten some emails about that and we're, um, we're thinking about that.
[41:54.080 --> 41:56.780]  So yeah, yeah, we have, we've thought about it and we're considering it.
[41:57.580 --> 41:57.980]  Okay.
[41:58.040 --> 42:07.360]  Well, I think you'll find the community has, uh, uh, a lot of support for, uh, for people who, uh, who say controversial things and, and get silenced as a result of saying controversial things.
[42:07.780 --> 42:14.820]  So, uh, I, I assume you're, you're looking upon this as, um, as a positive thing overall that the word is getting out.
[42:16.120 --> 42:18.580]  Yeah, no, it's definitely, that's, that's the goal.
[42:18.720 --> 42:25.480]  I mean, the more people that are talking about this, the more chances we have of hopefully, um, hopefully a changing.
[42:26.320 --> 42:26.680]  Okay.
[42:27.060 --> 42:27.980]  Uh, we're gonna take some phone calls.
[42:28.080 --> 42:29.240]  You're welcome to stay on with us.
[42:29.340 --> 42:31.980]  I'm not sure what your, what your, uh, time restraints are.
[42:33.300 --> 42:34.280]  Um, not sure.
[42:34.360 --> 42:36.120]  I could probably stick around for a bit.
[42:36.320 --> 42:36.340]  Okay.
[42:36.340 --> 42:39.000]  We're on, we're on for about another, uh, 17 minutes or so.
[42:39.100 --> 42:40.820]  So let's, uh, take some phone calls.
[42:40.940 --> 42:43.240]  212-209-2950.
[42:43.580 --> 42:46.000]  And we do ask that people stick to the topic.
[42:46.180 --> 42:56.120]  I know there's all kinds of issues out there, all kinds of things going on in people's lives, but, uh, let's, uh, let's stick to this topic for now and, uh, hopefully, uh, we can address other issues at a, at a future time.
[42:56.600 --> 43:01.880]  212-209-2900 is our phone number.
[43:02.180 --> 43:02.740]  Good evening.
[43:02.860 --> 43:03.800]  You're on off the hook.
[43:04.160 --> 43:04.700]  Oh dear.
[43:05.040 --> 43:07.580]  Well, that person was on the, uh, on the phone.
[43:07.700 --> 43:08.700]  And all the other ones have gone away.
[43:08.800 --> 43:08.900]  Okay.
[43:08.960 --> 43:10.100]  Here, here's a, here's a line.
[43:10.180 --> 43:10.440]  Good evening.
[43:10.580 --> 43:11.180]  You're on off the hook.
[43:12.100 --> 43:12.280]  Yep.
[43:12.680 --> 43:13.160]  Go ahead.
[43:13.240 --> 43:13.640]  You're on the air.
[43:14.280 --> 43:14.800]  Fuck you, Monroe.
[43:15.040 --> 43:15.360]  Fuck you.
[43:16.100 --> 43:16.460]  Okay.
[43:17.000 --> 43:17.360]  Wonderful.
[43:18.040 --> 43:19.820]  Uh, well, uh, let's try this one over here.
[43:19.920 --> 43:20.220]  Good evening.
[43:20.400 --> 43:21.380]  You're on off the hook.
[43:21.940 --> 43:22.700]  Hi, Emmanuel.
[43:23.020 --> 43:25.260]  I had a Verizon cell phone question for you.
[43:25.860 --> 43:25.940]  Okay.
[43:26.100 --> 43:29.400]  That's exactly what we ask people not to do, is talk about things that are off topic.
[43:29.760 --> 43:30.620]  On topic, folks.
[43:30.740 --> 43:32.660]  212-209-2900.
[43:33.020 --> 43:33.500]  Good evening.
[43:33.680 --> 43:34.660]  You're on off the hook.
[43:35.900 --> 43:36.460]  Fuck you, Monroe.
[43:36.820 --> 43:37.300]  Fuck you.
[43:38.480 --> 43:38.880]  Okay.
[43:38.880 --> 43:40.040]  We have one idiot out there.
[43:40.100 --> 43:41.120]  We might have to screen calls.
[43:41.260 --> 43:41.540]  Good evening.
[43:41.700 --> 43:42.520]  You're on off the hook.
[43:43.920 --> 43:44.560]  Go ahead.
[43:45.500 --> 43:45.900]  Hi there.
[43:46.080 --> 43:46.300]  Hi.
[43:46.340 --> 43:46.860]  What's on your mind?
[43:48.500 --> 43:49.260]  Speak up, please.
[43:49.700 --> 43:50.900]  Can you hear me?
[43:51.100 --> 43:51.820]  Yes, I can hear you.
[43:51.900 --> 43:52.320]  Please speak up.
[43:52.460 --> 43:52.560]  Okay.
[43:52.840 --> 43:53.020]  Yeah.
[43:53.140 --> 44:02.440]  A question is, um, see your guests, I think, uh, one of the panel or your guests mentioned earlier that Apple, they pump a lot of money into getting us to buy these products.
[44:02.700 --> 44:11.900]  And one is at a loss here, because you can't really, I mean, if they're spending a lot of money on getting us to buy these products, we can't really turn away from them.
[44:12.040 --> 44:15.220]  Um, and it's like, we're on, we're shooting ourselves in the foot anyway.
[44:15.360 --> 44:19.540]  How does one, I mean, it's such a, Apple is such a huge organization.
[44:19.740 --> 44:21.060]  One can't really go against them.
[44:21.220 --> 44:22.860]  And they're actually showing them what they do now.
[44:23.080 --> 44:23.420]  Okay.
[44:23.740 --> 44:26.760]  Let's let Michael answer that question while you land your spacecraft.
[44:26.920 --> 44:27.200]  Good evening.
[44:27.660 --> 44:27.840]  All right.
[44:27.880 --> 44:28.300]  Go ahead, Michael.
[44:29.660 --> 44:36.340]  Well, I mean, that's why we, we saw that, that happening, that they're the planned obsolescence, the perceived obsolescence.
[44:36.540 --> 44:41.560]  Uh, so we tried to address that, the whole kind of cycle of it, because that produces more demand.
[44:41.820 --> 44:46.180]  So, uh, we, we hope that this will have a little bit of an impact culture, really.
[44:46.260 --> 44:48.160]  That's why I'm talking about it is the best way.
[44:48.240 --> 44:50.900]  I don't think they're exactly a horrible giant.
[44:51.220 --> 44:54.840]  Um, they're not going to, you know, they're not, they're not shadowy.
[44:55.040 --> 44:57.700]  You know, we can, um, we can get them to change.
[44:58.600 --> 44:58.920]  Yeah.
[45:00.000 --> 45:01.260]  Can I ask a personal question?
[45:01.360 --> 45:02.460]  Do you, do you have a smartphone yourself?
[45:03.460 --> 45:03.940]  I do.
[45:04.080 --> 45:04.980]  I do have a droid.
[45:05.620 --> 45:06.480]  So you're complicit.
[45:06.480 --> 45:07.200]  Talk to my family.
[45:07.320 --> 45:08.540]  You're as complicit as anyone.
[45:09.100 --> 45:09.500]  Yeah.
[45:10.080 --> 45:13.300]  Well, that's, um, that's kind of, uh, a relief, I guess.
[45:13.480 --> 45:15.020]  But, uh, we're in this together.
[45:15.240 --> 45:15.520]  Voltaire.
[45:15.660 --> 45:16.700]  You're also complicit, man.
[45:16.920 --> 45:20.480]  I'm complicit too, but I'm not as complicit because my phone is so old.
[45:20.480 --> 45:22.640]  I have not replaced it in a generation.
[45:23.280 --> 45:25.200]  And, um, yeah.
[45:25.200 --> 45:26.220]  And I don't throw them out.
[45:26.260 --> 45:27.280]  I save all my phones.
[45:27.600 --> 45:30.100]  I have an entire room devoted to produce them.
[45:30.240 --> 45:35.560]  I, well, that's true, but at least they're not being dumped in landfills because they're all the landfills in my own house.
[45:35.680 --> 45:38.260]  In other words, you have toxic waste polluting your entire home.
[45:38.360 --> 45:38.440]  Yeah.
[45:38.460 --> 45:39.460]  And I think that's how it should be.
[45:39.560 --> 45:39.700]  Rob.
[45:39.880 --> 45:44.880]  I should point out in Michael's defense that, uh, it's kind of difficult to develop smartphone applications without a smartphone.
[45:45.100 --> 45:45.800]  That's a point.
[45:45.820 --> 45:46.140]  Yes.
[45:46.320 --> 45:46.500]  All right.
[45:46.540 --> 45:47.460]  Let's take another phone call.
[45:48.320 --> 45:49.160]  And good evening.
[45:49.400 --> 45:50.260]  You're on off the hook.
[45:51.900 --> 45:52.300]  Hi.
[45:52.820 --> 45:53.760]  Um, good evening.
[45:53.940 --> 46:02.680]  I've just been listening to your show and you were talking about, um, a device that would allow you to turn the TV off.
[46:03.260 --> 46:03.620]  Okay.
[46:03.780 --> 46:03.900]  Yes.
[46:04.040 --> 46:05.640]  That technically that is something we discussed tonight.
[46:05.820 --> 46:06.960]  So we will, we'll, we'll permit that.
[46:07.400 --> 46:16.380]  Mitch Altman here, uh, is the inventor of a wonderful device called TV Begone, which I think sort of fits along the theme of, uh, what we're discussing here tonight.
[46:16.460 --> 46:19.360]  Mitch, you want to tell us, uh, this, uh, call or something about that device?
[46:19.620 --> 46:21.240]  Yeah, well, uh, it, that's what it does.
[46:21.260 --> 46:22.060]  It has one button.
[46:22.220 --> 46:24.440]  I got, it's just a remote control with one button.
[46:24.560 --> 46:30.700]  I got rid of all those silly buttons that most remote controls have, like channel up and channel down, leaving the only important button, which is of course off.
[46:31.700 --> 46:40.760]  I also created a similar device that could turn off, um, the, uh, what, what am I trying to say here?
[46:41.180 --> 46:54.140]  I've noticed that people are taking a lot of pictures of other people and I wondered if there's a button that would allow you to turn off the camera of various... That's an interesting thought.
[46:54.620 --> 46:58.740]  Or maybe just erect a big black bar in front of your head or something like that.
[46:59.000 --> 46:59.900]  Well, there kind of is.
[47:00.080 --> 47:01.860]  You can do it, um, you can do it electronically.
[47:01.920 --> 47:11.680]  So with the same technology as TV Begone, which is just blinking an infrared light, an invisible light, uh, that the TV receiver can receive, you can have a bunch of those.
[47:11.680 --> 47:18.880]  And people in, um, UK, a lot of activists in the UK, where there is a big problem with surveillance cameras everywhere you go.
[47:19.080 --> 47:24.640]  Uh, they've created hoodies with a lot of infrared, uh, LEDs around the perimeter of the hoodie.
[47:25.060 --> 47:38.040]  And, uh, anyone seeing you in person, they don't see anything but you wearing a hoodie, but the cameras see bright flashing lights that obliterate your face, uh, which make it so that, uh, software can't recognize you.
[47:38.180 --> 47:44.320]  And Mitch, since inventing the TV Begone, how many, you should make an ex Begone, uh, suggestions have you received?
[47:44.320 --> 47:45.880]  I do get a lot of requests.
[47:46.200 --> 47:51.500]  And, um, you know, the thing is, uh, you know, I played my part and I hope other people will play their parts.
[47:51.500 --> 47:55.760]  So, uh, we all have to play our part in making the world better place as we see it.
[47:55.860 --> 48:01.260]  Have you ever been the victim of your own invention where you're trying to watch something on television and someone turns it off thinking they're funny?
[48:01.420 --> 48:02.320]  I don't have a TV.
[48:02.520 --> 48:05.720]  Well, what if there's a documentary about the making of the TV Begone?
[48:05.880 --> 48:06.760]  Wouldn't you want to watch that?
[48:06.860 --> 48:08.880]  And wouldn't you be highly annoyed if somebody kept turning it off?
[48:09.320 --> 48:19.180]  Uh, you know, if, if someone really thought that, uh, it was a public place, they were going, uh, out of their way to be at a public place and no one was watching the TV.
[48:19.500 --> 48:23.520]  Uh, no one leaves their home to watch TV except for sports bars.
[48:23.840 --> 48:24.040]  Let me tell you something.
[48:24.140 --> 48:27.180]  We were walking around the streets of Dayton, Ohio, a couple of years ago.
[48:27.300 --> 48:36.200]  And this is, this gives you a sense that your TV Begone has gotten much better since then, but we were walking around and we were able to turn off TV sets in people's houses as we were walking down the street.
[48:36.200 --> 48:39.700]  I know that's horribly obnoxious and to make it even worse.
[48:39.940 --> 48:41.720]  We, uh, it's a, it's a toggle switch.
[48:41.820 --> 48:42.620]  So it's on off.
[48:42.740 --> 48:48.660]  We were able to turn people's TV sets on, uh, they're sleeping peacefully upstairs and then they come down and the TV is on.
[48:48.980 --> 48:51.820]  And I can, I can only imagine what's, what goes through their minds.
[48:52.020 --> 48:57.640]  Well, you know, when, when you create a tool, there will be people such as yourself who use it for whatever they feel like it.
[48:57.640 --> 48:59.180]  We, we, we, we can't help ourselves.
[48:59.200 --> 49:01.060]  It's just, it's just the nature of it.
[49:01.180 --> 49:13.580]  I, I really made it, I really just wanted one for me and I, cause you know, I can get rid of a TV in my own home, but, uh, when I go to public places and they're popping up more and more and more and more, um, and no one's really even wanting them on and you know,
[49:13.680 --> 49:15.700]  you can't turn them off, but you know, now you can.
[49:15.880 --> 49:18.080]  And it just turned out that more and more people wanted them.
[49:18.540 --> 49:21.680]  And, uh, what people use them for is, you know, it's up to each individual.
[49:22.260 --> 49:22.580]  Okay.
[49:22.800 --> 49:23.320]  Uh, Red Hat, go ahead.
[49:23.320 --> 49:31.420]  I actually remember once back when the TV be gone first came out, I'd never kind of noticed how the ubiquity of TVs in public places.
[49:31.820 --> 49:40.540]  And shortly after we had discussed it, I guess for the first time, I went to a shoe store, I think, and they had like six plasma displays showing, uh, I don't know, something.
[49:40.740 --> 49:43.740]  Uh, and I, you know, I said, well, why is this necessary?
[49:43.860 --> 49:45.000]  You know, what, what is the point of this?
[49:45.040 --> 49:48.660]  All it's doing is wasting energy and nobody's looking at these televisions.
[49:48.860 --> 49:57.640]  Um, and so I think, you know, with this, not only does a TV gun give you the ability to shut off TVs, but it makes you more aware of the fact that there are all these things all over the place.
[49:57.900 --> 49:57.980]  Yeah.
[49:58.020 --> 50:09.460]  And that was certainly my intent is to have a fun way to, uh, bring up these kinds of things because people have been really frustrated without even being conscious that they were frustrated until having a way to think about it, such as TV be gone.
[50:09.880 --> 50:17.400]  And, you know, if I get in the middle of a, uh, a union square on a soapbox and start saying, turn off your TV, then everyone's just going to ignore me.
[50:17.480 --> 50:23.580]  But if I give some, uh, uh, device, a tool that makes it fun to turn off TVs, well, that's another story.
[50:23.740 --> 50:29.080]  Well, I, I sense a common theme between what Mitch is doing, what Michael and his friends are doing with, with the game.
[50:29.580 --> 50:34.920]  And, uh, that's making people aware, making people think, and, uh, kind of breaking some bad habits.
[50:35.100 --> 50:38.040]  And I, I sure hope that that's what, uh, all of this, uh, results in.
[50:38.140 --> 50:40.080]  Uh, comment from .red, then we're gonna take some phone calls.
[50:40.180 --> 50:41.880]  212-209-2900.
[50:42.060 --> 50:44.080]  Again, we do have one idiot out there at least.
[50:44.200 --> 50:48.500]  So, uh, the more calls that come in, the more of a buffer we have against that kind of a thing.
[50:48.600 --> 50:51.460]  Think of it as sort of like a, a united front against stupidity.
[50:51.580 --> 50:52.060]  Go ahead, Pat.
[50:52.080 --> 51:06.020]  Uh, yeah, the, the connection between the TV Begun, what we've just been talking about, and, uh, this, uh, this smartphone game is actually very strong because we were just talking about how we're bombarded with all this information of buy this, buy that.
[51:06.280 --> 51:17.600]  And a lot of times that's done by having these huge, uh, plasma displays or, or useless TVs pointing out of the windows, trying to just, just throw commercial information at people whenever possible.
[51:17.920 --> 51:22.060]  And this is really a very interesting and creative way at trying to combat that.
[51:22.460 --> 51:23.020]  Okay, Rob?
[51:23.220 --> 51:30.720]  And, uh, in a, in a world full of all these gimmicky gadgets, I think it's, uh, there's something very beautiful about using these gadgets to question the place of these gadgets in our lives.
[51:31.080 --> 51:34.000]  All right, let's try to take some phone calls and hopefully I get the right one here.
[51:34.000 --> 51:34.440]  Good evening.
[51:34.640 --> 51:35.700]  You're on off the hook.
[51:37.060 --> 51:37.700]  Go ahead.
[51:38.720 --> 51:47.500]  Yeah, um, somebody had mentioned, uh, that, uh, they, there was a, uh, manufacturer of televisions in China that, uh, had pro-labor practices.
[51:48.880 --> 51:49.320]  Okay.
[51:49.460 --> 51:51.500]  Yeah, I think that was, uh, was that you, Mitch?
[51:51.680 --> 51:53.860]  Well, I didn't talk explicitly about that.
[51:54.020 --> 52:03.300]  I don't know of anyone that have pro-labor, but, you know, in China, um, it's very capitalist place, uh, perhaps paradoxically, uh, maybe even more than us.
[52:03.960 --> 52:07.380]  Uh, so people do things because it's profitable.
[52:07.700 --> 52:23.020]  And there are a lot of places that try to compete through quality, uh, and also through, uh, actually doing things the right way to attract Western businesses to use them, as opposed to using places like Foxconn that have such a terrible reputation.
[52:23.200 --> 52:30.620]  But their prices are so low that corporations such as Apple find it irresistible to use them so they can save a few cents per unit.
[52:30.780 --> 52:49.900]  Um, and the more corporations, or individuals that choose to manufacture anywhere in the world, including China, who choose based on human, uh, rights and human conditions and safety practices and environmental, um, abuse or lack thereof, the more people who make choices positively in that way,
[52:50.000 --> 52:50.480]  the better.
[52:50.660 --> 52:55.420]  And then other companies are going to try to do the same to compete with ones that are doing it.
[52:55.820 --> 53:04.200]  So, um, there, you know, I came to New York to give talks at Maker Faire, which is happening this weekend and Open Hardware Summit, which is happening Thursday.
[53:05.020 --> 53:11.080]  And, um, part of my talk in Open Hardware Summit is to tell people, you, an individual, can manufacture.
[53:11.380 --> 53:19.440]  And one of the things you can use as a criteria, uh, for who you choose to manufacture is how do they treat their people?
[53:19.600 --> 53:20.620]  How do they treat the environment?
[53:20.840 --> 53:25.300]  These are things we can choose as people hiring companies who, who make these things.
[53:25.300 --> 53:26.000]  All right.
[53:26.080 --> 53:31.860]  Can you actually say the name of the company that, that, that's, I guess, more humane in their practices and that was mentioned?
[53:32.560 --> 53:36.860]  Uh, the company that I use is called Etonnet.
[53:37.360 --> 53:40.340]  Um, E-T-O-N-N-E-T.
[53:40.720 --> 53:45.400]  And, uh, it's based in San Rafael, but they have places in, uh, Shanghai.
[53:45.780 --> 53:48.380]  The place I initially use is called CompuTime.
[53:48.720 --> 53:50.880]  Uh, they used to be horrendously awful.
[53:51.000 --> 53:53.060]  They got busted for it and they cleaned up their act.
[53:53.080 --> 53:55.820]  And I found them after they cleaned up their act, and they're great.
[53:56.000 --> 53:58.640]  They're the world's largest manufacturer of remote controls.
[53:58.880 --> 54:00.880]  So it was only apt that I use them.
[54:01.500 --> 54:01.800]  Okay.
[54:02.520 --> 54:02.860]  All right.
[54:02.940 --> 54:03.280]  Well, thanks.
[54:03.380 --> 54:04.060]  Uh, thanks for the info.
[54:04.180 --> 54:05.300]  I hope that answers the question.
[54:05.520 --> 54:11.100]  I guess you don't have any information on who these manufacturers, ultimate clients are.
[54:11.220 --> 54:16.380]  If there are name brands I can go to the store and buy that are made in, you know, these slightly more ethical factories.
[54:16.560 --> 54:18.920]  I guess that's something that's a lot harder to research.
[54:19.220 --> 54:26.760]  Uh, well, I know like for just remote controls, all in one is a huge, uh, remote control manufacturer and they're made by CompuTime.
[54:27.040 --> 54:39.900]  Well, that sounds like a list that, uh, someone, uh, or a group should start compiling because that, that would be another good way to, uh, help put, you know, um, some, uh, demand pressure on which companies do good and which companies, uh, do bad.
[54:39.960 --> 54:40.100]  Oh yeah.
[54:40.180 --> 54:46.520]  And we can also look online and see which manufacturers use Foxconn, which is notoriously, notoriously horrible.
[54:46.920 --> 54:49.140]  And, uh, does your game point that out, uh, Michael?
[54:50.580 --> 54:51.780]  For Foxconn in particular?
[54:52.120 --> 54:52.320]  Yeah.
[54:52.460 --> 54:54.800]  Or, or any of the ones that you know are notorious.
[54:56.160 --> 55:02.160]  We, we mentioned Foxconn on the website, but in that game, it's, uh, it just talks about, um, factory mostly.
[55:02.720 --> 55:03.060]  Yeah.
[55:03.080 --> 55:12.300]  Well, if there's a list of, uh, corporations that use places like that, uh, that's a way that people can be aware of it and then use that in part of their choice for what they may want to buy.
[55:12.740 --> 55:15.040]  Now, uh, Mitch, you mentioned that you're going to be at Maker Faire.
[55:15.200 --> 55:16.420]  That's coming up this weekend.
[55:16.420 --> 55:26.320]  We did a show on it last week, uh, last Wednesday, uh, this weekend, Saturday and Sunday at the, uh, the, um, uh, former World's Fair grounds, the New York, um, Hall of Science.
[55:26.420 --> 55:27.000]  Hall of Science.
[55:27.180 --> 55:28.960]  And, um, what are you going to be doing there?
[55:29.340 --> 55:41.300]  Uh, well, I'm going to, uh, help, uh, Alpha One, uh, labs, uh, hackerspace here, uh, set up a hardware hacking area where we'll teach thousands of people, anyone who wants to, how to solder and how to make cool things.
[55:41.620 --> 55:43.720]  Yeah, teach more four year olds in New York now how to solder.
[55:43.720 --> 55:44.100]  Oh, yeah.
[55:44.180 --> 55:46.300]  We, at Maker Faires, we've taught three and a half year olds.
[55:46.300 --> 55:55.180]  Uh, you know, anyone can learn, uh, if they want to, it's super easy skill and it's a lot of fun and it's useful and you can make way cool things with it.
[55:55.340 --> 55:56.220]  Uh, it's very empowering.
[55:56.220 --> 55:59.400]  You know, you can make something cool and bring it home and show your friends.
[55:59.560 --> 56:10.640]  Uh, one thing too, I found out just like three days ago that, um, uh, they're, they're going to give me an award, uh, on Friday night, which actually I'm still way overwhelmed by.
[56:10.800 --> 56:11.040]  Wow.
[56:11.100 --> 56:11.880]  That's going to be embarrassing.
[56:12.040 --> 56:12.600]  We'll, we'll be there.
[56:12.600 --> 56:13.160]  Okay.
[56:13.240 --> 56:14.820]  You can watch me cry on this stage.
[56:14.920 --> 56:17.100]  In fact, a bunch of us, a bunch of us are going to be there.
[56:17.140 --> 56:21.740]  The 2600 van, I believe we'll be making an appearance, uh, and all kinds of fun things will be happening.
[56:21.820 --> 56:27.560]  And if you want more information on that, MakerFaire.com, that's spelled M-A-K-E-R-F-A-I-R-E.com.
[56:27.660 --> 56:28.740]  Just look up the New York section.
[56:28.860 --> 56:31.260]  It takes place Saturday and Sunday out there in Queens.
[56:31.360 --> 56:39.620]  Now, Michael, uh, I'd like for you to give out any information that, uh, people can use to either help you guys out or just get more information.
[56:42.540 --> 56:45.200]  Um, it's the phone story.org.
[56:45.640 --> 56:52.540]  Uh, yes, lab.org has info about what we're doing as far as all the new interesting hijinks and such.
[56:52.700 --> 56:56.060]  Um, and then our website has links and then play the game with your friends.
[56:56.360 --> 56:56.820]  Talk about it.
[56:57.320 --> 57:03.220]  Yeah, it's, uh, from what I saw, it, it looked pretty, uh, interesting, disturbing, but, but very interesting as well.
[57:03.420 --> 57:07.800]  Uh, now, uh, is there a way people can make donations or help you guys out?
[57:08.680 --> 57:12.200]  Uh, no, just, uh, we, we, we don't, we haven't set up anything.
[57:12.340 --> 57:15.740]  I'm not sure if we're going to, uh, as far as donating directly to us.
[57:15.800 --> 57:29.860]  We just have the, anything we make from the app, we're going to donate away and anything that, uh, it's at a couple art shows, any of the money that they give us, we're giving directly to some workers organizations or, or, um, maybe like other projects that,
[57:29.920 --> 57:31.060]  that fight different levels.
[57:31.240 --> 57:31.320]  Yeah.
[57:31.660 --> 57:31.980]  Okay.
[57:32.320 --> 57:38.720]  Well, it's, uh, it's always inspiration when somebody, uh, uh, does something that wakes people up and, and gets the word out.
[57:38.840 --> 57:43.740]  So I want to thank you for doing that and, and please keep it up and, and let us know if any new projects you're involved in.
[57:44.560 --> 57:45.040]  Yes, sir.
[57:45.140 --> 57:45.700]  Thank you very much.
[57:45.800 --> 57:45.980]  All right.
[57:46.060 --> 57:46.360]  Take care.
[57:46.680 --> 57:53.260]  And, um, one thing that, uh, we do need to, uh, to, to announce, because we've been talking about this for some time.
[57:53.780 --> 57:55.400]  Uh, as you know, we have a history.
[57:55.820 --> 57:57.240]  We've, we, we can't stop ourselves.
[57:57.380 --> 57:58.120]  We can't help ourselves.
[57:58.260 --> 58:00.300]  We have a history of holding conferences every couple of years.
[58:00.300 --> 58:02.580]  The last one was the next hope.
[58:03.020 --> 58:04.720]  And the one before that was the last hope.
[58:04.840 --> 58:04.940]  Okay.
[58:04.980 --> 58:06.580]  We're, we're through confusing ourselves now.
[58:06.920 --> 58:09.180]  Uh, the new one is going to be called hope number nine.
[58:09.700 --> 58:13.240]  I'm embarrassed because I don't have anything in front of me that has a calendar.
[58:13.400 --> 58:14.000]  So I don't know.
[58:14.400 --> 58:19.480]  Does anybody have a smart device that, uh, you have a, Gus, you're here and you have a smart device.
[58:19.480 --> 58:20.040]  I can tell you.
[58:20.240 --> 58:22.460]  No, I know the dates because it's always right before my birthday.
[58:22.620 --> 58:22.800]  Okay.
[58:22.840 --> 58:24.100]  What are the dates of hope?
[58:24.300 --> 58:33.900]  Number nine is going to be the 13th through the 15th of, uh, July of 2012, 2012, 13, 14, 15, wait a minute, 13th, Friday, the 13th.
[58:34.360 --> 58:37.420]  Have we thought this is it before the end of the world or after?
[58:37.680 --> 58:41.660]  Well, it's before because the end of the world is the end of, uh, it's part of December.
[58:41.840 --> 58:43.940]  So yeah, we'll be, we're safe as far as that goes.
[58:44.020 --> 58:48.380]  So, um, more information will be posted at hope.net, but that is the plan.
[58:48.380 --> 58:49.260]  Hotel Pennsylvania.
[58:49.440 --> 58:50.500]  Yes, it will still be standing.
[58:50.500 --> 58:54.380]  We're told it will be July 13, 14, 15, hope number nine.
[58:54.380 --> 58:55.820]  Look for more information on that.
[58:55.960 --> 59:00.580]  And follow hope number nine with the, the, um, the numeral nine on Twitter.
[59:00.740 --> 59:01.900]  Hope number nine on Twitter.
[59:02.040 --> 59:02.540]  Okay, great.
[59:03.100 --> 59:09.080]  Uh, write to us, OTH at 2600.com and, uh, send us stories or any information you have.
[59:09.540 --> 59:10.280]  We'll see you next week.
[59:10.400 --> 59:10.520]  Good night.
[01:00:27.540 --> 01:00:28.440]  All righty.
[01:00:28.520 --> 01:00:29.000]  All righty.
[01:00:29.020 --> 01:00:32.560]  You're listening to WBAI, New York, 99.5 FM.
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