[00:00.000 --> 00:03.080]  Next time you see the poison blue, you cock your camera back and point the shooting.
[00:03.120 --> 00:08.420]  Two new videos surfaced today in the shooting death of a young man by a BART police officer.
[00:08.860 --> 00:12.080]  One witness captured the actual shooting with a cell phone.
[00:12.400 --> 00:16.040]  You may find the video disturbing to watch, and may want to turn away.
[00:17.440 --> 00:18.660]  Film the police.
[00:19.000 --> 00:21.060]  Film the police.
[00:22.200 --> 00:23.100]  Film the police.
[00:23.340 --> 00:24.300]  I got the Canon 70.
[00:24.640 --> 00:27.000]  High definition for when they trying to arrest and lynch them.
[00:27.120 --> 00:28.140]  Then lie and protest the whipping.
[00:28.280 --> 00:29.400]  I serve and protect their victims.
[00:29.520 --> 00:30.600]  They murderous, threats and hitmen.
[00:30.680 --> 00:32.540]  Observe them and let the witness be the iPhone.
[00:32.800 --> 00:34.460]  Never let bygones be bygones.
[00:34.620 --> 00:36.960]  Get your flip cam before they get in the whip and ride on.
[00:37.180 --> 00:42.020]  It's vital, cause our survival could depend on the video going viral with more viewers than American Idol.
[00:42.020 --> 00:46.340]  So instead of having to bury your childhood, the cops shot, cause they thought he carried a rifle.
[00:46.620 --> 00:48.740]  Them same cops will go to court and swear on the Bible.
[00:49.000 --> 00:51.260]  The smile to show the teeth that they preparing to lap through.
[00:51.400 --> 00:54.040]  Whether it's rips or piru, fights, falls, and gangsta, disciple.
[00:54.360 --> 00:57.280]  Make sure your camera lens gets an eye full, and they liable.
[00:57.500 --> 00:58.520]  They try and confiscate it.
[00:58.580 --> 01:00.940]  Better hold on to that sh** like you constipated.
[01:01.140 --> 01:03.260]  Cause don't pretend them injuries were not related.
[01:03.320 --> 01:05.960]  Like when we arrived, we saw them dive head first off the pavement.
[01:06.180 --> 01:10.820]  So keep the minicam stashed in the dash of your minivan, cause they'll flash and smash on any man.
[01:10.820 --> 01:14.220]  Pull out your blackberry, cause cops will take a shot at your blackberry.
[01:14.320 --> 01:15.740]  Till they see another blackberry.
[01:15.920 --> 01:18.000]  Don't like scary, cause they'll empty the gad on you.
[01:18.060 --> 01:21.300]  Then stand over your body just to sprinkle the crack on your police attack.
[01:21.460 --> 01:25.060]  And you don't wanna see their reflections like Dracula if a camera was captured.
[01:25.220 --> 01:27.860]  You're too busy using your flashlights to back to us.
[01:28.160 --> 01:30.120]  To notice John Singleton was my passenger.
[01:30.840 --> 01:32.460]  So point, click, and shoot they asses.
[01:32.460 --> 01:34.840]  It's the only way to get the real truth to the masses.
[01:34.840 --> 01:37.400]  Just serious, I'm making movies like Spike Lee.
[01:37.520 --> 01:39.980]  I won't be alone or the special victim like Ice-T.
[01:39.980 --> 01:41.060]  Film the police.
[01:41.260 --> 01:43.360]  Film, film, film the police.
[01:43.940 --> 01:48.200]  Film, film, film the police.
[01:49.280 --> 01:50.760]  Film, film, film the police.
[01:51.380 --> 01:53.060]  Film, film, film the police.
[01:54.480 --> 01:55.440]  Film, film, film the police.
[01:56.080 --> 01:57.760]  Film, film, film the police.
[01:58.520 --> 01:59.000]  Film,
[02:05.800 --> 02:05.800]  film, film the police.
[02:06.420 --> 02:08.760]  Film, film, film, film the police.
[02:09.820 --> 02:11.700]  Film, film, film the police.
[02:12.660 --> 02:14.260]  Film, film, film the police.
[02:14.600 --> 02:15.640]  Film, film, film, film the police.
[02:15.640 --> 02:15.940]  Film, film, film, film, film the police.
[02:28.480 --> 02:31.580]  It's three minutes after seven o'clock, so we just had to let that play.
[02:31.680 --> 02:32.800]  There was just no question about it.
[02:35.020 --> 02:38.880]  It's WBAI, New York, a little late for off the hook, but better late than never.
[02:49.410 --> 02:51.330]  But because we're so late, we're not going to play the theme.
[02:51.330 --> 02:52.770]  And instead, we're going to introduce everybody.
[02:52.890 --> 02:53.310]  Hi, Mike.
[02:53.590 --> 02:53.710]  Hello.
[02:54.070 --> 02:54.490]  Dot Rhett.
[02:54.670 --> 02:54.890]  Hello.
[02:55.110 --> 02:55.550]  Rob T.
[02:55.710 --> 02:56.090]  Firefly.
[02:56.290 --> 02:56.650]  Good evening.
[02:56.790 --> 02:57.230]  Rhett Hacked.
[02:57.330 --> 02:57.510]  Hello.
[02:57.730 --> 02:58.090]  Bernie S.
[02:58.150 --> 02:58.790]  down in Philadelphia.
[02:59.490 --> 03:00.430]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[03:00.710 --> 03:01.690]  Kyle out in Seattle.
[03:02.190 --> 03:03.590]  Hey, everybody, I'm here.
[03:03.890 --> 03:04.270]  Okay.
[03:05.550 --> 03:07.910]  I thought that was just an awesome song, Film the Police.
[03:07.970 --> 03:08.950]  That's exactly what you got to do.
[03:09.010 --> 03:12.350]  And how many of us have gotten in trouble for doing just that or trying to do just that?
[03:13.590 --> 03:14.810]  I'm afraid to do that.
[03:15.810 --> 03:16.190]  Yeah.
[03:17.250 --> 03:18.470]  It's good sentiment.
[03:18.470 --> 03:21.510]  And I think it's something that's sort of the theme of journalism.
[03:21.550 --> 03:35.430]  There was an editorial or an article in the New York Times this week about journalists being harassed by the cops and how if the NYPD does not obey their own laws, whose laws are they going to obey?
[03:36.850 --> 03:43.930]  Basically, rules that say that cops are supposed to let journalists in, especially journalists with NYPD credentials.
[03:44.110 --> 03:45.930]  And this was the whole thing I went through back in 2004.
[03:46.210 --> 03:48.030]  I didn't have the NYPD credentials.
[03:48.330 --> 03:50.990]  So that's why I got taken away.
[03:51.370 --> 03:55.950]  But now, you know, even if you have that, first of all, the cops threaten you and say, you know, we gave you that.
[03:56.010 --> 03:57.390]  We can take it away if we don't like you.
[03:58.070 --> 04:01.530]  They're abusing their power and something we have to speak up about.
[04:01.630 --> 04:03.750]  Those NYPD credentials are utter nonsense.
[04:04.030 --> 04:09.130]  It's completely insane that the New York Police Department gets to choose who is and who isn't a journalist.
[04:09.390 --> 04:21.490]  And the criteria for getting those credentials are that you have to demonstrate that you've already published a number of stories that require you to go behind police lines, which you can't do unless you have the credentials.
[04:21.490 --> 04:24.110]  Well, you can fake the story.
[04:24.270 --> 04:24.910]  You fake the story.
[04:25.150 --> 04:33.370]  So new media like the Gothamist cannot get those credentials because they don't have a history of publishing stories that you need the credentials to get.
[04:33.770 --> 04:38.950]  It's this insane circular logic and the police department somehow gets away with it.
[04:39.070 --> 04:39.910]  Here's your article, in fact.
[04:40.050 --> 04:40.690]  Go ahead, that right.
[04:40.810 --> 04:46.190]  Well, it's their fault for not trying to start outside New York City, get their experience elsewhere.
[04:46.470 --> 04:46.990]  Maybe so.
[04:47.150 --> 04:47.570]  Why are they in New York?
[04:47.850 --> 04:48.350]  Yeah, maybe.
[04:48.490 --> 04:49.170]  No one asked them to be here.
[04:49.250 --> 04:50.190]  Maybe a place like Belarus.
[04:50.310 --> 04:51.290]  Well, we'll get to that in a second.
[04:52.150 --> 04:53.350]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[04:53.870 --> 05:14.990]  Here in Philadelphia, our police commissioner, Charles Ramsey, just a couple of months ago, issued a public memorandum that Philadelphia police officers were no longer permitted to go after members of the public who are using cell phones or video recorders,
[05:15.430 --> 05:23.870]  cell phones or video recorders, to go after, I mean, go after people who are videoing police.
[05:23.870 --> 05:30.390]  And that was implicitly stated in that memorandum that those would include audio as well.
[05:30.390 --> 05:32.550]  So this is a sea change in Philadelphia.
[05:33.430 --> 05:34.570]  I haven't heard...
[05:34.570 --> 05:43.270]  I've heard several cases of police going after and arresting people for doing this prior to that memorandum, but I haven't heard of any cases since then, a couple months ago.
[05:43.270 --> 05:45.210]  So this is a positive thing.
[05:45.210 --> 05:51.130]  Yeah, but you know, Bernie, not to be negative here, especially being a new year, and I'm trying to be positive, but they are only words.
[05:51.130 --> 05:53.950]  And we had those words, too, in late November.
[05:54.170 --> 05:55.150]  I'm reading from the article now.
[05:55.710 --> 06:00.590]  In late November, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly ordered every precinct in his domain to read a statement.
[06:00.890 --> 06:03.850]  And that took the whole day, because it's a challenge, believe me.
[06:04.610 --> 06:10.670]  Officers, the commissioner said, must respect the public's right to know about these events and the media's right of access to report.
[06:10.850 --> 06:16.610]  Any officer who unreasonably interferes with reporters or blocks photographers will be subject to disciplinary actions.
[06:17.210 --> 06:19.270]  And according to the article, these are fine words.
[06:19.270 --> 06:29.270]  Of course, his words followed on the heels of a few days in mid-November, when the police arrested, punched, kicked, and used metal barriers to ram reporters and photographers during the Occupy Wall Street protests.
[06:29.570 --> 06:32.670]  Recent events suggest that the commissioner should speak more loudly.
[06:33.930 --> 06:39.230]  Ryan DeVarro, a reporter, serves as Exhibit 1A, that all is not well.
[06:39.570 --> 06:47.630]  On December 17th, he covered a demonstration at Duarte Square on Canal Street for Democracy Now!, a news program carried on 1,000 stations.
[06:49.370 --> 06:52.750]  Ragamuffin demonstrators surged, and that's not really a nice way to describe them.
[06:53.170 --> 06:54.650]  The police pushed back.
[06:55.010 --> 06:58.550]  A linebacker-sized officer grabbed the collar of this reporter.
[06:58.730 --> 07:00.910]  He wore an ID identifying him as a reporter.
[07:01.230 --> 07:06.350]  The cop jammed a fist into his throat, turning him into a de facto battering ram to push back protesters.
[07:06.970 --> 07:08.870]  I yelled, I'm a journalist, he said.
[07:09.030 --> 07:11.670]  But he kept shoving his fist and yelling to his men, pushboys.
[07:12.510 --> 07:16.850]  Eventually, with curses and threats, to arrest the reporter, the officer relaxed his grip.
[07:17.150 --> 07:18.430]  You don't have to take his word.
[07:18.490 --> 07:27.490]  An Associated Press photograph shows this uniformed fellow grinding a meat-hook fist into the larynx of Mr. DeVarro, who was about 5 foot 5 inches.
[07:27.790 --> 07:37.910]  A video, easily found online, shows an officer blocking a photographer for the New York Times at the World Financial Center, jumping to put his face in front of the camera as demonstrators are arrested in the background.
[07:37.910 --> 07:50.010]  Three nights ago, at a New Year's Eve demonstration at Zuccotti Park, a captain began pushing Colin Moynihan, a reporter covering the protest for the New York Times, after the reporter asked the captain to stop.
[07:50.130 --> 07:52.810]  Another officer threatened to yank away his police press pass.
[07:53.070 --> 07:54.130]  That's a boss.
[07:54.250 --> 07:56.430]  You do what a boss tells you, the officer said.
[07:56.970 --> 08:00.670]  You got that credential you're wearing from us, and we can take it away from you.
[08:01.570 --> 08:07.190]  Reporting and policing can be high adrenaline jobs, but the decade-long trajectory in New York is toward expanded police power.
[08:07.190 --> 08:15.850]  Officers routinely infiltrate groups engaged in lawful dissent, spy on churches and mosques, and often toss demonstrators and reporters around with impunity.
[08:16.050 --> 08:22.490]  When this is challenged, the police commissioner and the mayor often shrug it off and fight court orders.
[08:22.730 --> 08:29.670]  The mayor even argued that to let the press watch the police retake Zuccotti Park would be to violate the privacy of protesters.
[08:29.830 --> 08:31.690]  It wouldn't be fair, he said.
[08:32.430 --> 08:35.530]  It's just this 1984 way of speaking.
[08:37.190 --> 08:50.950]  As arguments go, this is perversely counterintuitive, but the mayor's words reflect, as State Senator Eric Adams, the civil liberties lawyer that Norman Siegel and two others wrote in a recent letter to the commissioner, a misunderstanding of long-established patrol guide procedures.
[08:51.050 --> 08:52.110]  The regulations are clear.
[08:52.310 --> 08:58.610]  The media will be given access as close to the activity as possible with a clear line of sight and within hearing range of the incident.
[08:58.610 --> 09:06.270]  Precisely the opposite occurred on November 15th, when police officers herded reporters into a pen out of sight and sound of Zuccotti Park.
[09:07.270 --> 09:11.770]  The next day, the protesters moved north, briefly occupied a lot owned by Trinity Church.
[09:12.030 --> 09:17.110]  As the police closed in on demonstrators, they also handcuffed and arrested Associated Press and Daily News reporters.
[09:17.770 --> 09:21.950]  Mayoral press representatives stoutly insisted that the police acted properly.
[09:21.950 --> 09:25.950]  It is impossible to say the reporters were not breaking the law, a spokesman wrote.
[09:27.190 --> 09:32.610]  Now, it's just incredible to see this misrepresented so many times and abused.
[09:33.090 --> 09:36.010]  And so the crazy thing, this is how the police are treating the press.
[09:36.130 --> 09:42.990]  The press, which they at least state gets special consideration, that they should treat everyone nicely.
[09:44.510 --> 09:48.570]  And it's just insane to think that they think they can get away with when they're being nice.
[09:48.750 --> 09:51.490]  I love the bit about violating the privacy of protesters.
[09:51.490 --> 09:54.710]  I mean, whatever you may think of protesters, I mean, I've been one myself.
[09:55.050 --> 10:00.570]  But, you know, one thing that everyone can agree on about protesters is they're not there to be quiet and not seen and not heard.
[10:01.030 --> 10:01.710]  Yeah, exactly.
[10:01.950 --> 10:02.150]  Exactly.
[10:02.290 --> 10:05.410]  I mean, you can say that, you know, anonymous is involved.
[10:05.610 --> 10:08.630]  It doesn't mean that when you're there, you're anonymous, especially if you're showing your faces.
[10:09.730 --> 10:13.790]  And that's it's just it's an obvious end run around around their own rules.
[10:14.190 --> 10:16.190]  And if their own rules, they can't follow their own rules.
[10:16.510 --> 10:19.430]  Maybe, you know, they shouldn't be the ones making the rules in the first place.
[10:19.430 --> 10:23.550]  And in the case of the Occupy Wall Street protesters, anyway, they had their own media set up.
[10:23.650 --> 10:25.190]  They had their own broadcasts of things.
[10:25.310 --> 10:34.170]  So obviously, you know, there was no interest in privacy from coverage, but especially if they had their own organizations, you know, grassroots organizations doing it as well.
[10:34.350 --> 10:34.570]  Uh-huh.
[10:34.570 --> 10:36.730]  Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's silly statement.
[10:36.930 --> 10:41.790]  Well, having having your own media obviously makes all the difference in being able to see this unfold in front of you.
[10:41.930 --> 10:49.670]  And that's something that I think was very important throughout all this throughout the autumn through and into the winter where people could actually tune in.
[10:49.730 --> 10:51.250]  And I know, Kyle, you were doing this.
[10:51.350 --> 10:58.410]  You were watching what people were doing live as it was happening from Zuccotti Park, from other parts of the country.
[10:58.410 --> 10:59.290]  Same thing, Bernie.
[10:59.430 --> 11:00.570]  I'm sure you were watching this as well.
[11:01.150 --> 11:01.350]  Yes.
[11:02.290 --> 11:07.990]  Yeah, finally, people are using technology in ways that may affect social and political change.
[11:08.530 --> 11:08.810]  Yeah.
[11:08.930 --> 11:15.690]  And hopefully we'll be able to talk about ways that people can use technology to claim their rights.
[11:15.930 --> 11:21.850]  And by that, I mean, like, new cool stuff that isn't just like a trick or like, you know, toy thing.
[11:21.850 --> 11:26.290]  It's something that, like, is powerful and we're not just oogling at it.
[11:26.390 --> 11:32.810]  We're actually going to employ it to make our feelings hurt and all of that.
[11:32.990 --> 11:33.330]  Oogling.
[11:33.350 --> 11:34.710]  Is that a new company, Oogle?
[11:37.190 --> 11:38.210]  That's an adjective.
[11:38.610 --> 11:39.950]  I think...
[11:39.950 --> 11:40.970]  That's what people do after Christmas.
[11:41.410 --> 11:43.650]  I think it starts off as a toy.
[11:43.950 --> 11:47.870]  And then we realize ways we can use these toys to do something effective.
[11:47.870 --> 11:55.090]  When YouTube started, did anyone think YouTube was going to be the key to social change, you know, to revolutions around the world?
[11:55.190 --> 11:55.950]  You thought that, Mike?
[11:56.030 --> 11:56.730]  No, but...
[11:56.730 --> 11:57.470]  You raised your hand.
[11:57.510 --> 11:58.410]  But there's nothing new here.
[11:58.550 --> 12:06.590]  Look, political activists have always used the best technology available to them, whether or not that's the same technology as available to other people.
[12:06.690 --> 12:09.010]  The printing press has been used to affect social change.
[12:09.170 --> 12:10.870]  That was a new technology when it came out.
[12:11.370 --> 12:20.050]  Every technology that's worth its salt, I would say, I'd almost argue that you can tell if a technology is any good because it can be used to affect social change.
[12:20.170 --> 12:20.550]  Well, that's what I mean.
[12:20.650 --> 12:25.070]  I mean, a speak-and-spell is a great thing, but it was never used for, you know, for social unrest.
[12:25.290 --> 12:26.450]  YouTube, when YouTube came out...
[12:26.450 --> 12:28.370]  What's great about speak-and-spell, really?
[12:28.590 --> 12:32.930]  I'm just saying that it was not an effective tool for social change, whereas YouTube has turned into that.
[12:33.010 --> 12:34.010]  And I don't think that's...
[12:34.010 --> 12:38.650]  When we first saw YouTube, I don't think we were saying, yeah, this can be used in this particular manner.
[12:39.050 --> 12:40.110]  And it's great that it is.
[12:40.310 --> 12:41.550]  And Twitter as well.
[12:41.550 --> 12:44.730]  You know, something with the name of Twitter, I laughed at when I first heard about it.
[12:44.810 --> 12:46.310]  And now it's something serious.
[12:46.550 --> 12:47.430]  I still laugh at it.
[12:47.510 --> 12:49.050]  Yeah, well, there's plenty to laugh at.
[12:49.070 --> 12:55.210]  And I'm not sure that the people who started these things saw that either, or are particularly happy that that's what's happening.
[12:55.330 --> 12:56.530]  Some of the people, I think, are.
[12:56.970 --> 12:57.870]  Well, I hope so.
[12:57.930 --> 12:58.290]  I hope so.
[12:59.070 --> 13:00.410]  Now, I mentioned Belarus.
[13:00.570 --> 13:01.650]  I'd like to get back to Belarus.
[13:01.830 --> 13:03.570]  Well, I wouldn't like to get back to Belarus, actually.
[13:03.570 --> 13:04.550]  Boy, that was something.
[13:05.230 --> 13:11.210]  Yeah, Kyle, you and I did a show, actually, that aired yesterday, first part of it, on Off the Wall, where we visited Belarus.
[13:11.570 --> 13:12.670]  We talked about it on this show.
[13:13.750 --> 13:15.030]  How would you describe it, Kyle?
[13:18.650 --> 13:19.450]  Eastern European.
[13:20.830 --> 13:25.310]  First of all, I've never been to Russia at all, ever, anywhere in Russia.
[13:25.490 --> 13:28.590]  Yeah, but now you've been to the Soviet Union, because that's what Belarus pretty much is.
[13:28.870 --> 13:29.090]  Right.
[13:29.530 --> 13:33.130]  So, but, you know, it sort of fulfilled some of those expectations.
[13:33.130 --> 13:36.750]  I can imagine Moscow's entirely, very much huger.
[13:36.750 --> 13:39.810]  But, no, no, Belarus was very Eastern European.
[13:40.470 --> 13:42.170]  A lot of emphasis on sport.
[13:42.370 --> 14:03.810]  And that, in the, coming out of that whole experience traveling there, if I could sum it up, I would say sport is a way, and in Belarus in particular, I think is a great example of how countries that maybe, yeah, misunderstood, maybe not quite the same as maybe Western countries,
[14:03.810 --> 14:10.850]  I think sport is a real diplomatic way of communicating with the rest of the world.
[14:11.010 --> 14:14.890]  If we don't agree on anything else, you know, we can get along with sport.
[14:14.890 --> 14:20.730]  I remember saying that there, and I still feel that way now, after having explored it a little bit.
[14:20.850 --> 14:28.990]  It just seemed like sports were the one thing that you could speak about that was sort of neutral, but you could still communicate.
[14:29.350 --> 14:30.310]  Does that make any sense?
[14:30.410 --> 14:32.270]  Yeah, because you sure couldn't talk about politics.
[14:32.270 --> 14:34.190]  Right, right, right, right, exactly.
[14:34.310 --> 14:34.970]  That kind of crap.
[14:36.210 --> 14:37.290]  Bernie, you said something?
[14:37.890 --> 14:48.710]  Yeah, I mean, I would argue that here in the United States, sports is a huge distraction from our populace paying attention to domestic and foreign policy.
[14:49.030 --> 14:54.430]  I mean, how many people pay attention to sports versus how many people pay attention to domestic and foreign policy issues?
[14:54.570 --> 15:06.050]  And the facts that they know, the information that they store in their heads, the things that they're able to talk about intelligently too, but if only that brain power was used for things that actually change the way people live.
[15:06.490 --> 15:23.470]  And so that's really emblematic of my experience there, was that, you know, that you're either lock stock with the military, you know, doing your tenure as a youth, or perhaps you've been in the service for a while, or you're into something different,
[15:23.630 --> 15:24.350]  perhaps sports.
[15:24.950 --> 15:26.990]  But I really didn't see much middle ground.
[15:27.130 --> 15:29.990]  I didn't see a lot of international business going on in Belarus.
[15:30.410 --> 15:41.510]  I think we discussed this on the radio program, that most stuff was, it seemed or felt state-owned, you know, all the way down to the toothpaste that you're buying and the stores that you're walking into.
[15:41.870 --> 15:46.930]  There are a couple of companies from other parts of the world, but it's really sort of a closed society.
[15:47.030 --> 15:48.270]  It's very, very clean.
[15:48.270 --> 15:56.230]  No garbage anywhere, that was something I think, his name is, no, Lukashenko, yes.
[15:56.450 --> 15:56.850]  Lukashenko.
[15:57.030 --> 15:59.190]  Yes, the last dictator of Europe.
[15:59.550 --> 15:59.670]  Correct.
[15:59.670 --> 16:00.870]  Even says that on his door.
[16:01.250 --> 16:02.490]  But he's really proud of that.
[16:02.510 --> 16:05.130]  I don't know, I've never actually seen his door, but it could.
[16:05.550 --> 16:08.670]  If you'd seen his door, you wouldn't be around to make jokes about it.
[16:08.810 --> 16:09.050]  Really?
[16:09.070 --> 16:10.050]  His door, is that restricted?
[16:10.270 --> 16:10.470]  Yeah.
[16:11.390 --> 16:11.750]  All right.
[16:12.410 --> 16:13.210]  Go ahead, go ahead, Carl.
[16:13.650 --> 16:17.670]  I just, lastly, the society seemed just, you know, closed.
[16:18.730 --> 16:27.330]  That's the best way I can say it, is that it just felt a bit closed off, a little bit isolated, and concerned with their own things.
[16:27.730 --> 16:36.330]  So, the norm is, as I said, being a part of the military, or maybe you run a small business and you're into sports.
[16:36.330 --> 16:40.650]  But there wasn't a lot of diversity beyond any of that.
[16:40.650 --> 16:45.930]  It was sort of very vanilla in a lot of what you saw.
[16:46.130 --> 16:48.410]  Red Hecht, I can't help but notice that you're doubled over in laughter.
[16:48.550 --> 16:52.910]  You find sports funny or distracting or irrelevant?
[16:53.190 --> 16:54.170]  I find the description amusing.
[16:54.510 --> 16:56.090]  Well, yeah, but it's true.
[16:56.270 --> 17:03.690]  I mean, there are posters everywhere about the athletes and how they're going to bring glory back to the motherland or whatever it is that it's referred to over there.
[17:05.030 --> 17:14.630]  And definitely similar to what happens here, as Bernie said, kind of swaying the populace away from those things that really do matter.
[17:15.150 --> 17:18.550]  You know what there's not posters of in Belarus, foreign websites?
[17:18.930 --> 17:23.670]  Yeah, and I'm getting into that because Belarus, coincidentally enough, is in the news.
[17:23.830 --> 17:26.090]  Now, we had planned this program for quite some time.
[17:26.090 --> 17:27.250]  We went over there in August.
[17:27.950 --> 17:33.910]  And if you want to hear the first part of it, it's up on www.2600.com slash off the wall.
[17:34.170 --> 17:35.550]  Part two airs next week.
[17:35.730 --> 17:47.430]  And I think the theme that is encompassed in the first part of it sort of is fear and paranoia on our part, because we were in a train station with a microphone and a MP3 player recording audio.
[17:47.570 --> 17:50.130]  We weren't sure if we were supposed to do that, if we were going to get arrested.
[17:50.470 --> 17:54.170]  And we were kind of talking in subdued tones and not sure what we could say and what we couldn't say.
[17:54.170 --> 17:57.070]  Sounds like you should buy some lavaliers or something.
[17:57.250 --> 18:00.990]  Well, that too could be problematic if you're questioned.
[18:01.190 --> 18:02.290]  It's kind of scary.
[18:02.530 --> 18:03.090]  It really is.
[18:03.270 --> 18:12.510]  The knowledge, just knowing the attitudes and that you possibly could be perceived in a way that is counter to what they consider normal.
[18:12.730 --> 18:17.650]  I mean, just the self-checking, the paranoia, I think, was the worst.
[18:17.650 --> 18:21.070]  I think we were pretty... we were policing ourselves.
[18:21.070 --> 18:25.270]  We were concerned, you know, because everything could be interpreted one way or another.
[18:25.450 --> 18:29.010]  And you felt like it was a strict society, even if that wasn't outwardly it.
[18:29.110 --> 18:37.230]  And when we were recording, I believe that we were feeling the most brazen that we had felt there, most likely because we were leaving.
[18:37.830 --> 18:42.590]  And on one of my previous trips there, I've been there three times now, I find it interesting.
[18:42.750 --> 18:44.090]  I like going to interesting places.
[18:44.090 --> 18:46.030]  I would go to North Korea again if I had the opportunity.
[18:47.950 --> 18:50.190]  It's just fascinating to see the changes.
[18:50.330 --> 18:53.210]  Of course, I was also sick when I was over there, so it wasn't nearly as much fun.
[18:53.710 --> 18:58.930]  But it's fascinating to just go into the huge buildings and see that there are no people in them and that they're all dimly lit.
[18:59.070 --> 19:02.290]  And if you go into a store, there's 20 people working there and no customers.
[19:03.670 --> 19:04.470]  Things like that.
[19:04.990 --> 19:11.250]  But on one of my previous trips, I remember the place I stayed in, the person at the hotel told me that Wi-Fi was illegal.
[19:11.430 --> 19:13.390]  You couldn't have Wi-Fi in the whole country.
[19:13.390 --> 19:14.410]  I think that's changed.
[19:14.630 --> 19:16.550]  Did we use Wi-Fi while we were over there?
[19:17.090 --> 19:17.530]  Absolutely.
[19:17.750 --> 19:17.890]  Yeah.
[19:17.990 --> 19:18.170]  We did.
[19:18.210 --> 19:20.270]  Wireless was completely unblocked.
[19:20.370 --> 19:24.370]  I feel like we could have searched for anything without really having any repercussions.
[19:24.490 --> 19:35.190]  Well, we might have caused some problems then by doing that because on December 21st of last year, a particular law was published in Belarus.
[19:35.850 --> 19:46.150]  And basically, what this says, this says that restrictions are being imposed on visiting and or using foreign websites.
[19:46.730 --> 19:49.590]  This is for Belarusian citizens and residents.
[19:49.770 --> 19:58.330]  Under this new law, the violation of these rules is recognized as a misdemeanor and is punished by fines of varied amounts up to the equivalent of 125 U.S.
[19:58.370 --> 20:00.150]  dollars, which is a lot of money over there.
[20:00.150 --> 20:02.090]  There's a lot of money over here, too.
[20:02.590 --> 20:14.970]  The law requires that all companies and individuals who are registered as entrepreneurs in Belarus use only domestic internet domains for providing online services, conducting sales, or exchanging email messages.
[20:15.430 --> 20:24.990]  It appears that business requests from Belarus cannot be served over the internet if the service provider is using online services located outside of the country.
[20:24.990 --> 20:32.830]  The tax authorities, together with the police and secret police, are authorized to initiate, investigate, and prosecute such violations.
[20:32.890 --> 20:35.470]  By the way, the secret police are still known as the KGB.
[20:36.110 --> 20:37.630]  Russia, they're not known as that anymore.
[20:37.710 --> 20:38.750]  They're known as FSB over there.
[20:39.210 --> 20:52.090]  And additionally, the law states that the owners and administrators of internet cafes or other places that offer access to the internet might be found guilty of violating this law and fined and their businesses might be closed.
[20:52.090 --> 21:06.410]  If users of internet services provided by these places are found visiting websites located outside of Belarus, and if such behavior of the clients was not properly identified, recorded, and reported to the authorities.
[21:06.690 --> 21:16.090]  The law states that this provision may apply to private individuals if they allow other persons to use their home computers for browsing the internet.
[21:16.090 --> 21:17.690]  Mike, this sounds insane.
[21:24.250 --> 21:30.970]  Is there any blocking going on by the government or by the ISPs, or is it just, you better not go to a website?
[21:31.710 --> 21:34.610]  Well, as Kyle said, when we were there, there didn't seem to be any blocking.
[21:34.710 --> 21:36.850]  I don't know if blocking is going on now, but...
[21:36.850 --> 21:38.630]  We had access through Bell Telecom.
[21:38.810 --> 21:43.350]  Bell, B-E-L, Telecom is the name of the major telco there.
[21:43.550 --> 21:48.570]  And all of the access points, the wireless that we were using was very open, very free.
[21:48.690 --> 21:54.930]  I don't think we had any problems browsing or using any other ports or other services.
[21:55.490 --> 21:56.610]  But this law is new.
[21:56.730 --> 21:59.210]  So, I mean, things could have changed in the meantime, right?
[21:59.270 --> 22:00.090]  It didn't exist before.
[22:00.090 --> 22:00.290]  Absolutely.
[22:00.290 --> 22:01.410]  So there was no reason to block it.
[22:01.410 --> 22:11.890]  Now, this might just be a symptom of how much of a disconnect there is between our world and this apparently Belarusian enclave.
[22:12.230 --> 22:16.330]  But the language that I'm hearing in this article does seem a little confusing.
[22:16.850 --> 22:22.670]  When they say people registered as entrepreneurs have to follow these rules, what requirements are there for that?
[22:22.750 --> 22:24.630]  Can people avoid being registered as such?
[22:25.590 --> 22:27.430]  They're going back and forth to a couple of things.
[22:27.570 --> 22:29.170]  Like, for instance, is this just banned?
[22:29.390 --> 22:31.930]  Or is there a technology being implemented to stop people?
[22:32.470 --> 22:35.450]  I haven't heard too much about the actual specifics of this.
[22:35.610 --> 22:36.670]  And I'm a little curious about that.
[22:36.670 --> 22:43.850]  I think in terms of the entrepreneurs, they're just saying that if you have a business website, you better have a bellow Russian domain because it's illegal to reach the rest.
[22:43.850 --> 22:49.350]  But I'm also seeing that emails, you can't exchange emails with people from other parts of the world.
[22:49.370 --> 22:51.890]  What if you get a spam message from somewhere else in the world?
[22:52.030 --> 22:52.610]  What happens then?
[22:52.610 --> 23:04.410]  Well, I think receiving might be different than... It just... It seems the ultimate in paranoia and just... And, you know, this would also involve countries like Russia and supposedly friendly countries.
[23:04.570 --> 23:05.990]  So it's very bizarre.
[23:06.230 --> 23:14.050]  So, I mean, I think the lesson here is that you have a repressive government and for a repressive government, no amount of repression is sufficient.
[23:14.270 --> 23:16.090]  They always have to add another rule.
[23:16.410 --> 23:19.750]  And I suspect that this law will not be universally enforced.
[23:19.990 --> 23:24.830]  It will probably, I'm guessing, be enforced only against people that the government already doesn't like.
[23:24.950 --> 23:27.550]  And here's yet another tool to get those people in trouble.
[23:28.250 --> 23:41.890]  And I think there, even though I don't think it's going to be anytime soon that the US will go to set up such a law as this, I think there's still a lesson here for us, which is that, you know, you have to stop censorship attempts like this.
[23:41.990 --> 23:46.970]  Just for comparison purposes, when you were in North Korea, was there internet access at all?
[23:47.030 --> 23:47.230]  Oh, no.
[23:47.370 --> 23:54.590]  Now, what you could do is you could go, you could go down to the hotel lobby and you could ask to send an email message and it would be sort of added to a queue.
[23:55.470 --> 24:00.930]  And they would just send it out on mass at some point, but you did not have access yourself.
[24:01.130 --> 24:01.850]  So who had access?
[24:02.470 --> 24:03.790]  It was sent someplace.
[24:04.070 --> 24:06.010]  I didn't obviously watch what they did.
[24:06.210 --> 24:08.810]  Did they mail a letter to some other ISP in another country?
[24:08.950 --> 24:11.630]  It was something that was typed into a computer.
[24:11.750 --> 24:15.610]  I know that much, but it was sent, a whole bunch of them were sent to some provider someplace.
[24:15.850 --> 24:17.610]  Of course, it was all checked before that happened.
[24:17.790 --> 24:18.070]  Right.
[24:18.130 --> 24:19.870]  And then they would go out maybe once a day.
[24:20.030 --> 24:20.990]  It was like the real mail.
[24:21.210 --> 24:22.010]  It went out once a day.
[24:22.070 --> 24:23.250]  What if you needed to receive email?
[24:23.490 --> 24:28.570]  I don't think... Maybe somebody would read it to you over the phone in your room or something like that.
[24:29.350 --> 24:30.550]  It was very strange.
[24:30.770 --> 24:33.970]  I was able to make phone calls, but then again, I was a tourist.
[24:34.150 --> 24:35.690]  But so they don't even have the internet there.
[24:35.990 --> 24:36.990]  No, they really don't.
[24:37.050 --> 24:38.190]  Not in the country.
[24:38.330 --> 24:40.350]  I mean, I'm sure the upper echelon does.
[24:40.570 --> 24:40.870]  Right, right.
[24:40.950 --> 24:45.670]  But oddly enough, a lot of the internet that does get into North Korea is provided through Japan.
[24:45.670 --> 24:49.170]  And that's kind of interesting there.
[24:49.350 --> 24:50.250]  Go ahead.
[24:50.990 --> 24:53.370]  We were talking about Wi-Fi in other countries.
[24:53.730 --> 25:09.770]  The federal government of Malaysia just recently required their... passed a law that requires operators of metropolitan restaurants and eateries, you know, like diners, to provide Wi-Fi.
[25:09.770 --> 25:13.430]  It can be either free or fee-based.
[25:14.210 --> 25:29.850]  And the city government of Bangkok, Thailand, has just decided to provide 40,000 over this past year and coming forward year, 40,000 free wireless access points provided by the government.
[25:29.990 --> 25:30.650]  I have a theory.
[25:30.910 --> 25:41.130]  The governments are pushing for Wi-Fi, knowing that its citizens will be using it, and then using surveillance technologies to better monitor what their citizens are doing.
[25:41.130 --> 25:44.790]  You know, Bernie, sometimes I think there's nothing that will make you happy.
[25:44.970 --> 25:50.210]  If we take away the access, we tell people they can't do things, that's bad.
[25:50.210 --> 25:54.430]  And if we give it to them and force them to use it, then that's also bad.
[25:54.430 --> 25:55.330]  I mean, come on.
[25:55.450 --> 25:56.670]  Can the government ever do any right?
[25:57.870 --> 25:58.830]  I don't know.
[25:59.450 --> 25:59.850]  Wow.
[25:59.990 --> 26:00.130]  Okay.
[26:00.190 --> 26:02.510]  And also in Thailand, I think there's something similar, right?
[26:03.210 --> 26:03.470]  Yeah.
[26:03.550 --> 26:04.890]  Bangkok is in Thailand.
[26:05.170 --> 26:06.290]  Oh, I thought you said Malaysia.
[26:06.290 --> 26:14.850]  I said Malaysia, and I said the city government of Bangkok decided they're going to provide 40,000 free wireless access points.
[26:15.070 --> 26:25.990]  That's different than Malaysia, which is the federal government is requiring their city restaurants and eateries to provide wireless access points free or otherwise.
[26:26.250 --> 26:34.610]  But whereas in Bangkok, the government itself is providing 40,000 free wireless access points to the internet.
[26:35.530 --> 26:51.990]  But again, my theory is that maybe these not necessarily forward-thinking progressive governments in Malaysia and Thailand are just providing citizens with more means to be monitored by.
[26:53.190 --> 26:55.950]  I can't imagine they would not take advantage of that.
[26:56.130 --> 27:03.990]  Well, they could just be, as Bernie said, being monitored or simply could just be, let's provide something to make people feel as if they're getting information but will censor it.
[27:04.830 --> 27:13.370]  However they might deal with that, I still think it's nice to see governments trying to, you know, increase internet access.
[27:13.670 --> 27:16.490]  You know, there are ways around these various means of censorship.
[27:16.490 --> 27:20.230]  If people are so motivated, it could still, you know, be a good thing.
[27:20.370 --> 27:21.370]  Let's be honest, though.
[27:21.490 --> 27:26.730]  I mean, if the government really wants to monitor their citizens' activities, it would be much easier just to do at the ISP level.
[27:27.150 --> 27:30.830]  I don't think that setting up a bunch of, you know, Wi-Fi monitoring.
[27:31.050 --> 27:37.550]  The only advantage to monitoring open Wi-Fi would be that, okay, well, you don't have to actually ask the ISP for permission.
[27:38.350 --> 27:40.190]  And so there's maybe no paper trail.
[27:40.330 --> 27:50.970]  But I mean, in reality, right, if you're not using, if your connection is not encrypted with the end site, you know, as long as it passes through some router that the government controls, they can monitor what you're doing.
[27:52.130 --> 27:52.570]  So...
[27:52.570 --> 28:04.630]  You know, good or bad, I still like when governments actually display knowledge of what the internet is and how it works, versus completely disconnected from reality legislation that doesn't seem to quite know what's going on.
[28:04.870 --> 28:10.350]  Yeah, you know, I kind of prefer it when they don't know what's going on, because then you can sort of operate with impunity.
[28:10.390 --> 28:12.930]  Well, I mean, no, we know what happens when they don't know what's going on.
[28:13.030 --> 28:14.090]  They pass laws like SOPA.
[28:14.270 --> 28:19.650]  But are we really complaining that these governments in Asia are setting up Wi-Fi access points?
[28:19.810 --> 28:22.490]  I'm finding it hard to figure out what we're complaining about.
[28:22.490 --> 28:23.630]  Yeah, we have to complain about something.
[28:23.790 --> 28:27.170]  But I'd rather complain about what's going on here in the United States.
[28:27.230 --> 28:29.390]  Actually, I can't really find a reason to complain about this.
[28:29.510 --> 28:44.070]  But on the subject of Wi-Fi, apparently, all those buses driving in and out of cities, they've boosted their trips by 32% over the last year, because travelers are leaving their cars behind and surfing the internet while they're traveling.
[28:44.310 --> 28:53.950]  That's right, the popularity of US intercity buses picking up passengers at the curb rather than in the terminal has been growing since the industry reversed a 46-year decline in 2006.
[28:55.350 --> 29:00.990]  And basically, there's free Wi-Fi in all these buses and everyone's jumping at it.
[29:01.370 --> 29:06.490]  And it's changed the entire bus industry, I guess.
[29:06.490 --> 29:10.530]  Yeah, I have to say that I took a train last weekend instead of driving.
[29:11.510 --> 29:15.630]  And the convincing argument for me was, oh, well, there's Wi-Fi on it.
[29:15.730 --> 29:17.470]  And you can just surf the web.
[29:17.550 --> 29:18.750]  And I said, all right, sounds great.
[29:18.870 --> 29:20.490]  Why would I want to drive then?
[29:20.490 --> 29:24.350]  If the train would lower its prices, then we'd have more trains, more people riding the trains.
[29:24.430 --> 29:28.590]  And of course, they are much better for the environment than a whole lot of buses driving around.
[29:29.030 --> 29:30.370]  Buses are okay for the environment.
[29:30.770 --> 29:31.510]  But regardless...
[29:31.510 --> 29:31.770]  Really?
[29:31.990 --> 29:33.110]  You're going to say buses are okay?
[29:33.170 --> 29:35.690]  I got stuck behind a bus today, and I don't think it was that good for the environment.
[29:35.750 --> 29:36.930]  Yeah, but there were 40 people on it.
[29:37.210 --> 29:37.890]  No, there weren't.
[29:37.970 --> 29:38.730]  There were three people on it.
[29:38.750 --> 29:47.010]  The carbon footprint, in theory at least, or in general, is better because more people ride a single bus versus, say, three or four people in one car.
[29:48.030 --> 29:48.210]  Trains.
[29:48.550 --> 29:50.930]  But regardless, if we had more trains, I think we'd be...
[29:50.930 --> 29:53.190]  They use the same internet connection technology, though.
[29:53.470 --> 29:56.010]  So on that front, it's going to be...
[29:56.010 --> 30:00.970]  The thing is, I just think we're tied to our Wi-Fi connections way too much.
[30:01.130 --> 30:01.790]  We're always connected.
[30:01.930 --> 30:04.890]  We're always doing things and not talking to the people next to us.
[30:05.130 --> 30:06.150]  You don't have to use it.
[30:06.390 --> 30:07.390]  Well, no, I know that.
[30:07.390 --> 30:09.330]  But the person next to me always is.
[30:09.410 --> 30:10.290]  Don't blame the Wi-Fi.
[30:10.690 --> 30:11.770]  I'm not blaming the Wi-Fi.
[30:11.790 --> 30:16.070]  I'm just saying that we're a little bit, I guess, enslaved to it.
[30:16.070 --> 30:16.870]  So, Brenna, yes?
[30:17.110 --> 30:21.750]  I just wanted, for our listeners who don't know how this works, you know, not everyone...
[30:21.750 --> 30:32.890]  It might not be obvious to everyone how internet can be provided wirelessly in a bus, or how internet connectivity at all can be provided in a bus traveling down the highway.
[30:33.950 --> 30:50.390]  What they've been doing for several years is putting a, basically, a network bridge in there, connecting a mobile, like, PCS or cellular internet connection, like from Verizon or Sprint or AT&T or one of those carriers.
[30:51.170 --> 30:59.430]  And that is then provided over a bridge to a Wi-Fi, you know, a wireless access point in the bus.
[30:59.950 --> 31:15.010]  So, your Wi-Fi connection in the bus is actually going out through one of these, like, kind of like one of these Verizon wireless access cards or Sprint wireless access cards or another carrier's wireless access card to an antenna on the roof of the bus.
[31:15.550 --> 31:16.910]  And that's how it works.
[31:17.130 --> 31:23.530]  So, you know, you may lose connectivity if you go through a tunnel or a bad spot.
[31:23.630 --> 31:27.230]  So, it's not like you're in your house using a Wi-Fi connection.
[31:27.230 --> 31:30.810]  It's going to suffer some loss, depending on where the bus is.
[31:31.010 --> 31:33.550]  And the same is actually true for other mobile internet.
[31:33.810 --> 31:38.770]  So, trains and airplanes, the airplane systems use cellular connections as well.
[31:39.230 --> 31:40.130]  So... All right.
[31:40.230 --> 31:47.410]  Speaking of trains, this is actually something that came out of the recent Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin that none of us attended this year.
[31:48.590 --> 31:53.010]  Apparently, a shift to a mobile communications technology...
[31:53.450 --> 31:54.390]  Oh, I hate this.
[31:54.410 --> 31:55.490]  This is from BBC, too.
[31:55.610 --> 31:56.370]  BBC says this.
[31:56.430 --> 31:57.330]  Listen to how they phrase it.
[31:57.350 --> 32:01.830]  A shift to a mobile communications technology could expose rail networks to hackers.
[32:02.170 --> 32:11.590]  Now, I know that's not how it was presented at CCC, but that's how the mass media chooses to portray it, that the only threat to an insecure system is a hacker.
[32:11.830 --> 32:15.230]  No, it's anybody that wants to do harm to it.
[32:15.310 --> 32:18.530]  And it's shoddy security in the first place.
[32:18.670 --> 32:19.490]  That's a threat to everybody.
[32:20.130 --> 32:30.590]  The professor who was speaking, Steven Katzenbeiser, said the systems which switch trains from one line to another could be shut down if encryption keys went astray.
[32:31.050 --> 32:34.890]  He stressed that trains would not be in danger, but there could be delays.
[32:35.510 --> 32:41.230]  Now, Kyle, I know you were watching a lot of the talks because they had a really good online system from Berlin.
[32:41.530 --> 32:42.650]  Did you happen to see this one?
[32:43.270 --> 32:44.730]  No, I didn't catch that one, actually.
[32:45.090 --> 32:47.870]  Well, I've heard people talking about this quite a bit.
[32:48.030 --> 33:01.890]  It's GSM Railway, GSM-R, a more secure version of the 2G wireless standard, allows traffic controllers and train drivers to talk to each other and for data to be transmitted, recording the vehicle's speed and location.
[33:02.250 --> 33:13.290]  When used with the European train control system, the signalers can utilize the data to give the train permission to enter the next part of the track, theoretically making trackside signals unnecessary.
[33:13.710 --> 33:16.890]  The technology is already being used in parts of Europe, Africa, and Asia.
[33:17.490 --> 33:18.750]  Note, not America.
[33:19.270 --> 33:24.450]  Network Rail is rolling it out in the UK and aims to cover all of Britain's rail lines by the end of 2014.
[33:24.830 --> 33:30.990]  Now, Professor Katzenbeiser believes the system is relatively secure from hackers under normal circumstances.
[33:30.990 --> 33:44.230]  However, the computer science expert from Technische Universität Darmstadt, which I believe is in Germany, says, the encryption keys used to protect the communications could pose risks.
[33:44.390 --> 33:47.430]  The main problem I see is a process of changing keys.
[33:47.630 --> 33:51.610]  This will be a big issue in the future, how to manage these keys safely.
[33:52.670 --> 33:55.390]  The risk would occur if one of them fell into the wrong hands.
[33:55.590 --> 34:02.690]  This could allow hackers to mount a denial of service attack by overwhelming the signal system with traffic, forcing it to shut down.
[34:02.690 --> 34:07.890]  Trains could not crash, but services could be disrupted for some time.
[34:08.110 --> 34:11.610]  A spokesman for National Network Rail played down the risk.
[34:11.770 --> 34:17.570]  GSMR is a robust and secure system, and Network Rail does not comment in detail on security.
[34:17.730 --> 34:19.490]  Probably a wise thing.
[34:20.390 --> 34:20.830]  Well, I...
[34:20.830 --> 34:21.050]  Emanuel.
[34:21.330 --> 34:22.690]  Go ahead, Bernie, and then thought, Rhett.
[34:23.010 --> 34:28.990]  Well, you know, you remember you had one of those cellular jammers you demonstrated on the show a few years back.
[34:29.270 --> 34:44.290]  If someone had one of those on the band that the train is using their GSM-R connection on, the train would effectively be... you could effectively shut down a train by just turning on a jammer on a train.
[34:44.310 --> 34:45.770]  I am certainly not advocating that.
[34:45.890 --> 34:47.870]  I'm just saying that that potentially exists.
[34:48.470 --> 34:51.210]  Well, you know, if it's possible to do that, yeah, we should know about it.
[34:51.290 --> 34:53.210]  It doesn't mean that the only people that are going to do it are hackers.
[34:53.350 --> 34:54.890]  Hackers are the ones that are going to tell you how to do it.
[34:54.950 --> 34:57.010]  Shut down the train, or just the communication system?
[34:57.290 --> 34:58.150]  I mean, it's...
[34:58.150 --> 35:06.930]  The train, if it realizes it's not getting its signaling, would have to go on, like, manual eyeball... They're probably going to want to shut it down.
[35:07.190 --> 35:09.890]  Yeah, they're going to want to shut it down, because they don't know which way the tracks are switched.
[35:10.230 --> 35:12.450]  It really would basically force the train to shut down.
[35:13.330 --> 35:14.690]  Now, that's actually very interesting.
[35:14.850 --> 35:21.830]  And then I start getting images in my head of someone putting some device, a jammer on the train that has a delay, so they walk up the train.
[35:21.830 --> 35:27.710]  But basically, the whole lesson of this is you can have a fairly robust system, but it all really depends on how it's implemented.
[35:27.830 --> 35:37.250]  I think the attack here in question, though, isn't to do with a self... I mean, a radio jammer, a radio frequency jammer, but actually with the encryption system used to protect the communications.
[35:37.970 --> 35:43.070]  And so, I mean, yeah, maybe in theory, you could use a jammer to accomplish the same thing.
[35:43.210 --> 35:47.070]  But if you can start adding your own messages, it becomes far more interesting.
[35:47.630 --> 35:50.010]  How did we ever drive trains before GSM and encryption?
[35:50.010 --> 35:51.210]  Yeah, exactly, you know?
[35:51.490 --> 35:55.470]  So the answer to your question is we didn't drive them at 400 kilometers an hour.
[35:55.670 --> 36:00.730]  Like, you need new technologies to enable trains to go at the speeds they go in civilized countries.
[36:00.750 --> 36:01.490]  Just better reflexes.
[36:01.530 --> 36:03.090]  Well, what you're saying is true.
[36:03.170 --> 36:13.370]  And also, it's more efficient, if you think about it, to have some sort of virtual controls versus building all this physical infrastructure to work all the signaling out.
[36:13.590 --> 36:17.210]  It's a lot easier to reimplement new and better improvements.
[36:17.210 --> 36:22.490]  But the problem then comes down to, no matter how robust you have it, if you're talking about encryption, how are you managing the keys?
[36:22.710 --> 36:24.290]  You know, human error type things.
[36:24.450 --> 36:24.770]  Well, okay.
[36:24.850 --> 36:27.510]  We have to move on because I would like to take some phone calls a little bit later on.
[36:28.890 --> 36:32.770]  This is a story, though, about traveling, which none of us have done this winter.
[36:33.350 --> 36:34.450]  But this guy did.
[36:34.630 --> 36:36.830]  He was coming to the United States from Canada.
[36:36.830 --> 36:38.050]  And guess what he did?
[36:39.090 --> 36:40.810]  Well, he got into the country for one thing.
[36:40.810 --> 36:47.050]  He got into the country by showing a scanned copy of his passport on his Apple iPad.
[36:48.010 --> 36:48.530]  Yeah.
[36:49.110 --> 36:49.630]  What?
[36:49.910 --> 36:50.830]  He did this.
[36:51.290 --> 37:01.930]  Martin Reich was a half hour from the border when he decided to try to gain entry rather than turn back and make it a two-hour trek back home to Montreal to fetch his passport.
[37:01.930 --> 37:06.610]  He told the customs officer... Kyle, we probably have met this customs officer.
[37:06.910 --> 37:07.230]  I'm sure we have.
[37:07.230 --> 37:10.250]  We probably spent time in the office being questioned by him.
[37:10.570 --> 37:12.970]  He told this officer he was heading to the U.S.
[37:13.030 --> 37:15.470]  to drop off Christmas gifts for his friend's kids.
[37:15.910 --> 37:16.490]  Oh, my God.
[37:16.510 --> 37:17.590]  We should have used that story.
[37:17.750 --> 37:24.870]  He said that true story, the scanned passport and his driver's license, helped him get through last week.
[37:24.910 --> 37:28.970]  He said the officer seemed mildly annoyed when he handed him the iPad.
[37:30.970 --> 37:33.770]  I thought I'd at least give it a try, Mr. Reich said.
[37:33.950 --> 37:35.870]  He took the iPad into the little border hut.
[37:36.230 --> 37:38.550]  He was in there a good five, six minutes.
[37:38.770 --> 37:39.670]  It seemed like an eternity.
[37:40.070 --> 37:44.190]  When he came back, he took a good long pause before wishing me a Merry Christmas.
[37:45.530 --> 37:47.130]  And then he was allowed into the country.
[37:47.250 --> 37:47.610]  And guess what?
[37:47.650 --> 37:51.430]  He used the exact same method to get back into Canada, and that worked as well, an iPad.
[37:51.870 --> 37:56.130]  Yeah, I just feel bad for him because, of course, then the officer had to stamp his iPad screen.
[37:58.990 --> 38:00.090]  Ah, it's just...
[38:00.090 --> 38:00.810]  I find it amazing.
[38:00.870 --> 38:04.250]  I'm a citizen of this country, and I can't get in that easily, and someone can use an iPad.
[38:04.510 --> 38:10.190]  You know, this brings up a very interesting question because we were just talking about physical infrastructure being replaced by virtual with trains.
[38:10.290 --> 38:14.150]  This makes me wonder, when are we going to have virtual passports, and I don't need to have a physical one.
[38:14.150 --> 38:19.610]  I can just, you know, have a virtual passport that I can display on my mobile devices and get in and out of countries that way.
[38:19.730 --> 38:20.110]  You really...
[38:20.110 --> 38:21.030]  You're wishing for this, aren't you?
[38:21.190 --> 38:21.650]  All right.
[38:21.790 --> 38:25.730]  As a graphic designer, I am wishing for the era of virtual ID because that would be fun.
[38:26.510 --> 38:26.870]  Amazing.
[38:28.970 --> 38:36.390]  We have, speaking of conferences and things like that, we have our own conference coming up in July, and there's been some movement.
[38:36.530 --> 38:38.050]  There have been some interesting developments.
[38:38.910 --> 38:41.150]  First of all, we have a website up now.
[38:42.150 --> 38:44.130]  HopeNumber9.net is finally up.
[38:44.270 --> 38:45.170]  Do you have to spell out nine?
[38:45.390 --> 38:45.930]  I'm sorry?
[38:46.090 --> 38:47.730]  Do you have to spell out N-I-N-E nine?
[38:47.910 --> 38:48.090]  Yeah.
[38:48.190 --> 38:48.790]  Is that a challenge?
[38:48.990 --> 38:50.130]  Well, some people it might be.
[38:50.270 --> 38:55.230]  You know, I think maybe the number nine works too, but I know N-I-N-E is the official one.
[38:55.230 --> 38:56.710]  Well, that's good to know.
[38:57.350 --> 39:02.530]  Hope .net will take you to the little telephone dial, which, you know, I guess I should tell people this.
[39:02.750 --> 39:05.910]  And, Kyle, I think you already know this because you helped scan it.
[39:06.490 --> 39:08.430]  But that telephone dial, that's...
[39:08.430 --> 39:08.950]  That's photographing.
[39:09.110 --> 39:09.370]  Yeah.
[39:09.590 --> 39:12.650]  That's my telephone dial from when I was growing up as a kid.
[39:12.870 --> 39:13.990]  Your family telephone.
[39:14.090 --> 39:15.050]  Your family dial.
[39:15.210 --> 39:18.090]  How many people out there grew up with one telephone?
[39:19.190 --> 39:20.210]  Anybody here in this room?
[39:20.330 --> 39:20.630]  You did.
[39:20.710 --> 39:20.990]  Yes.
[39:20.990 --> 39:21.250]  Yes.
[39:21.250 --> 39:22.430]  And I still have the dial from it.
[39:22.550 --> 39:23.410]  And Bernie, you did too.
[39:23.610 --> 39:24.310]  I did too.
[39:24.310 --> 39:25.750]  And do you still have your dial?
[39:26.490 --> 39:26.790]  No.
[39:27.070 --> 39:27.890]  It was actually...
[39:27.890 --> 39:30.590]  We had dial and then we got a touch tone in the 70s.
[39:31.770 --> 39:32.950]  But yeah, it was one house.
[39:33.090 --> 39:34.670]  It was one phone and it was in the kitchen.
[39:35.650 --> 39:40.970]  And then, a couple years later, I found an old rotary dial phone at the county dump.
[39:41.690 --> 39:43.350]  And I pulled it out of the muck.
[39:43.410 --> 39:45.370]  Why were you at the county dump to start with?
[39:45.750 --> 39:46.270]  Never mind.
[39:46.450 --> 39:47.010]  And then I...
[39:47.010 --> 39:48.450]  Well, that's where we had to dump our trash.
[39:48.470 --> 39:49.470]  It lived in a rural area.
[39:49.590 --> 39:49.770]  Okay.
[39:49.770 --> 39:54.570]  Then I cleaned it up and I got it working and I had a secret illegal phone in my bedroom.
[39:54.730 --> 39:55.290]  I loved it.
[39:55.730 --> 39:56.650]  I did the same thing.
[39:56.870 --> 39:59.810]  You know, back then it was illegal to have your own phone just to hook it up on your own.
[39:59.950 --> 40:00.310]  Yes.
[40:00.530 --> 40:02.550]  I bought a rotary phone at Radio Shack.
[40:02.610 --> 40:08.790]  I hooked it up in my room and I thought the cops would come because it was against the law to have an extension without paying for it.
[40:09.390 --> 40:11.250]  Paying my bell a monthly fee.
[40:12.150 --> 40:13.830]  So, yeah, those were scary days.
[40:13.950 --> 40:18.170]  But the main phone, yeah, you know, it was stored in my garage or something.
[40:18.390 --> 40:20.250]  And, Kyle, you took a picture of it.
[40:20.370 --> 40:23.850]  And I didn't realize the significance of it until it's sitting up there on Hope.net.
[40:23.890 --> 40:25.090]  That is my rotary phone.
[40:25.210 --> 40:30.590]  That every phone call that I made growing up involved that particular device.
[40:30.610 --> 40:31.750]  And it still works, too.
[40:31.850 --> 40:32.790]  I still use that phone.
[40:32.950 --> 40:36.070]  I don't dial numbers very often, but I can still talk.
[40:36.190 --> 40:36.990]  And it sounds better.
[40:37.410 --> 40:37.890]  I'm sorry?
[40:37.910 --> 40:40.490]  I think we refurbished it a little bit, didn't we?
[40:40.490 --> 40:44.590]  Well, you refurbished it at the Telecommunication Museum in Seattle.
[40:44.870 --> 40:48.450]  Yes, and then I sent it back to you to make sure it was in working order.
[40:49.170 --> 40:52.030]  You've been doing that a lot, actually, as far as refurbishing telephones.
[40:52.170 --> 40:54.550]  We were talking earlier about candlestick phones, I think.
[40:55.010 --> 40:58.670]  Yeah, my neighbor, I gave him one of the phones that I refurbished.
[40:58.750 --> 40:59.410]  It was sitting around.
[40:59.590 --> 41:02.410]  And I just thought, eh, yeah, give it away.
[41:02.550 --> 41:04.210]  It's the holidays, you know.
[41:04.350 --> 41:07.230]  And why I have a bunch of clutter around it, it was a cheap phone.
[41:07.230 --> 41:10.130]  And candlesticks, yeah, I mean...
[41:10.130 --> 41:11.670]  What is a candlestick phone?
[41:11.990 --> 41:15.610]  It's an old, like, pre...
[41:15.610 --> 41:20.270]  I want to say pre-30s, pre-20s, but I might be getting the error totally wrong.
[41:21.310 --> 41:22.910]  Well, they're still in Staten Island, too.
[41:23.470 --> 41:23.750]  Yeah.
[41:23.850 --> 41:24.890]  I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
[41:25.250 --> 41:26.030]  We've got to get letters.
[41:26.530 --> 41:30.550]  No, but the candlestick phones are the old-fashioned kind, where it's basically in two pieces.
[41:30.550 --> 41:32.610]  You talk into something, and you hold something up to your ear.
[41:32.610 --> 41:38.490]  Right, the transmitter's on a stick, and you hold that, and then you hold the receiver up to your ear.
[41:40.390 --> 41:52.090]  And, yeah, it's the era prior to what you might consider a desk phone, where it's a receiver and the transmitter are in one handset.
[41:52.270 --> 41:54.810]  And there are some models, too, where you crank it, right?
[41:55.370 --> 42:02.390]  Yeah, those are the old wall phones, when you had to provide the ringing voltage, or I'm not sure now.
[42:02.530 --> 42:19.390]  You had to crank something to get some voltage, and this is way before my time, so I don't know the details about how it worked precisely, but you crank the voltage to get, I guess, ringing voltage or something, or to ring the operator, and then she would connect you to whoever you were requesting.
[42:19.390 --> 42:32.990]  I actually, I think you brought that up because I made a cranking motion, and the reason, one of those wall phones jumped in my head because when I was a kid, I found one at a garage sale or something, and I ended up getting my parents to buy it, and I had it at home for a long time.
[42:33.130 --> 42:33.650]  Where is it now?
[42:33.890 --> 42:35.090]  I have no idea.
[42:35.330 --> 42:36.050]  We have to find it.
[42:36.150 --> 42:38.410]  All right, well, I might have thrown it out, but...
[42:38.410 --> 42:39.610]  You threw out a candlestick phone?
[42:39.770 --> 42:42.530]  No, it was the wall one with the cranking thing.
[42:42.610 --> 42:42.830]  Okay.
[42:43.030 --> 42:43.230]  Yeah.
[42:43.430 --> 42:45.330]  If it was an original, that's a real fine.
[42:45.330 --> 42:47.970]  If it's one of the remade ones, or...
[42:47.970 --> 42:48.890]  I don't remember.
[42:49.090 --> 43:00.230]  Point being is, these things were built to last forever, and they're antiques, and you can restore them, and there's parts all over flea markets and garage sales and all over the internet.
[43:00.450 --> 43:10.070]  And if you have leads on candlestick phones or old phones in general, you know, the kind that are made out of metal that you could kill somebody with in an Alfred Hitchcock story, email us, OTH at 2600.com.
[43:10.170 --> 43:10.610]  We're very interested.
[43:10.810 --> 43:12.850]  It's not anyone I know that you're going to kill?
[43:13.390 --> 43:14.130]  Not yet.
[43:14.270 --> 43:14.670]  Not yet.
[43:15.090 --> 43:16.710]  And they do still work.
[43:16.710 --> 43:22.610]  I mean, SS7 includes pulse dialing.
[43:22.750 --> 43:22.950]  Yeah.
[43:23.030 --> 43:23.610]  It still works.
[43:23.630 --> 43:24.130]  They'll use it.
[43:24.370 --> 43:25.930]  Do I have to get a phone line to use one of these?
[43:26.090 --> 43:26.670]  Oh, come on.
[43:26.730 --> 43:28.170]  People don't even have phone lines anymore.
[43:28.290 --> 43:29.270]  They don't even have land lines.
[43:29.390 --> 43:31.230]  They don't know how good a phone call can sound.
[43:31.430 --> 43:32.930]  Does my VoIP line support pulse dialing?
[43:34.090 --> 43:34.550]  All right.
[43:35.570 --> 43:36.210]  Moving on.
[43:36.570 --> 43:37.690]  We're talking about the conference.
[43:37.930 --> 43:38.930]  I don't know how we got into this.
[43:38.970 --> 43:41.470]  All I mentioned was the rotary dial on the Hope.net site.
[43:41.470 --> 43:44.610]  So, yeah, the conference is July 13th through 15th.
[43:45.190 --> 43:47.230]  We're about to open up speaker submissions.
[43:48.350 --> 43:55.850]  We're talking about providing a network and all kinds of other fun things, new ideas.
[43:56.550 --> 43:56.970]  Yeah.
[43:57.190 --> 43:59.730]  Anything that stands out that you guys want to discuss?
[43:59.730 --> 44:00.330]  Yes.
[44:01.250 --> 44:04.830]  We think, you know, this has to do with Hope.
[44:04.990 --> 44:09.990]  We think we're hearing that Hotel Pennsylvania might have a stay of execution.
[44:09.990 --> 44:11.050]  I was going to get to that.
[44:11.410 --> 44:12.170]  Well, Rob, you first.
[44:12.230 --> 44:13.190]  I'll get to that in a moment.
[44:13.430 --> 44:13.630]  Yeah.
[44:13.770 --> 44:17.210]  Just speaking of ideas, we have some of our own, but we also need yours.
[44:17.330 --> 44:20.770]  We need you to get involved on talk.hope.net, which is still going.
[44:20.850 --> 44:22.670]  We've had that going for the last couple of conferences.
[44:22.790 --> 44:27.310]  And it's a really great way to get involved and get the info on things as it comes out.
[44:27.310 --> 44:29.850]  And, yeah, help us out.
[44:29.990 --> 44:31.370]  Anything you guys on the phone want to mention?
[44:31.670 --> 44:39.410]  I'd like to just say we're just getting started, as Rob alluded to, and we're coming out the gate, getting some momentum going.
[44:40.010 --> 44:48.670]  And we're excited that perhaps this conference will have this new technology known as Gigabit.
[44:49.670 --> 44:50.670]  Giga-what now?
[44:51.030 --> 44:52.030]  Yeah, Gigabit.
[44:52.150 --> 44:53.050]  It's new.
[44:53.210 --> 44:54.350]  It's new technology, yeah.
[44:54.570 --> 44:54.950]  Wow.
[44:54.950 --> 44:56.730]  Tell us something about...
[44:56.730 --> 44:57.490]  You were following this.
[44:57.570 --> 45:00.650]  The CCC in Berlin a couple of weeks ago.
[45:01.190 --> 45:01.410]  Yeah.
[45:01.530 --> 45:03.270]  What kind of connectivity did they have?
[45:03.650 --> 45:04.650]  Oh, man.
[45:05.190 --> 45:05.610]  Really?
[45:06.050 --> 45:06.490]  They're ill.
[45:06.490 --> 45:12.050]  Is it fair to say that the CCC is connected to the Internet or that the Internet is just, you know, part of the CCC?
[45:12.050 --> 45:13.110]  I think they are the Internet.
[45:13.170 --> 45:14.570]  The Internet connects to them.
[45:15.470 --> 45:33.530]  Okay, so some of my friends, some folks that I've gotten to know, and I really like the style, the aesthetics, the way they set things up, they were summing up the event network that was at the camp this summer, as well as the Congress this winter.
[45:33.750 --> 45:41.190]  So they, if you want to check it out, check up the NOC closing talk at 28C3.
[45:41.450 --> 45:47.390]  But they described the camp network and what they had for the Congress this year.
[45:47.390 --> 45:55.850]  In the case of the Congress, they had twin 10-giggy connections over CWDM.
[45:56.050 --> 45:56.470]  Giggy?
[45:56.590 --> 45:57.450]  Giggy, is that a word?
[45:57.690 --> 45:58.790]  10-giggy.
[45:58.990 --> 46:01.330]  So that's like 10 gigabit.
[46:01.730 --> 46:05.150]  Two 10-gigabit connections over CWDM.
[46:05.270 --> 46:09.470]  That's two strands of fiber running two different wavelengths of 10-gigabit Ethernet.
[46:09.590 --> 46:12.710]  So that's a total of 20 gigabits of Ethernet.
[46:12.710 --> 46:19.510]  And then they had about five other providers that amounted to about three gigabits of uplink.
[46:19.670 --> 46:23.770]  So they had 23-giggy uplink total.
[46:24.030 --> 46:37.190]  They had... they could accommodate 15, the rest being used for headroom for protocol, handshake and, you know, keeping the connection up.
[46:37.350 --> 46:39.370]  And they only used five.
[46:39.690 --> 46:41.750]  They had 23 and they only used five.
[46:41.750 --> 46:45.890]  They had 23, they could accommodate 15, and they only used five.
[46:46.070 --> 46:48.950]  And we've never approached anything like five, have we?
[46:49.110 --> 46:52.030]  We've never gotten anywhere close to five for an uplink.
[46:52.430 --> 47:02.690]  But I'm excited to announce that just the local network itself, something I'm excited and pushing for is this new technology called Gigabit.
[47:03.250 --> 47:03.770]  All right.
[47:03.890 --> 47:06.030]  Well, you know, I'm looking forward to this.
[47:06.170 --> 47:13.230]  And it's just, you know, if folks want to get involved in developing the new HOPE conference, please write to us.
[47:14.510 --> 47:17.090]  Volunteers at HOPE.net is one address you can use.
[47:17.170 --> 47:22.670]  Just go to HOPE9.net or HOPE.net and you'll see what we need, what we're looking into.
[47:22.970 --> 47:26.570]  And if afterward it didn't work, I think we're on record as saying it was all Kyle's fault.
[47:26.570 --> 47:27.670]  Yeah, we will say that.
[47:27.930 --> 47:28.830]  I'll stop that.
[47:29.010 --> 47:29.730]  Bernie, go ahead.
[47:30.210 --> 47:35.750]  You'd asked to comment about the whole speakers situation.
[47:36.030 --> 47:38.650]  We typically have about 100 or so speakers.
[47:38.750 --> 47:39.290]  Oh, more, yes.
[47:39.290 --> 47:46.010]  It's amazing the amount of knowledge that's imparted to attendees to these HOPE conferences.
[47:46.490 --> 47:49.290]  But, yeah, it's really a lot of work.
[47:49.290 --> 47:58.990]  It's fun, it's exciting to come up working, you know, the volunteer of the HOPE conference to come up with topics and find speakers or that sort of thing.
[47:59.070 --> 48:11.030]  But we really, as Kyle mentioned, we really want people not only to submit their own papers, but to make suggestions.
[48:11.030 --> 48:14.750]  It's like, we'd really like to see someone talk about this.
[48:14.750 --> 48:17.990]  We'd really like to have this person talk about this sort of thing.
[48:17.990 --> 48:19.490]  But we haven't done that before.
[48:19.490 --> 48:26.390]  And I'd really like to see that because I think there's a lot of good ideas out there that we don't have that we'd like to take advantage of.
[48:26.690 --> 48:34.770]  And we have a great record of diverse speakers, I think, that come to our conferences and talk about all kinds of things.
[48:35.210 --> 48:37.370]  And we want to continue that and expand that.
[48:37.730 --> 48:43.110]  And we'll be opening up speaker submissions in the next week or so along with pre-registration.
[48:43.550 --> 48:45.790]  And I think also, this is kind of cool.
[48:45.790 --> 49:00.970]  If you go to our internet store, store.2600.com, and click on the DVDs and videos, the first two conferences we have, which is 94 and 97, Hope and Beyond Hope, we now have an embedded player there.
[49:01.910 --> 49:07.810]  And on that embedded player, you can click on those talks and just see them, the non-DVD versions.
[49:07.910 --> 49:12.310]  But you can see the actual talks there as hosted on Blip TV.
[49:12.990 --> 49:15.410]  And later this month, we're going to be releasing H2K.
[49:15.410 --> 49:19.310]  And we're going to try and release a different conference every month leading up to Hope No.
[49:19.410 --> 49:19.690]  9.
[49:19.810 --> 49:22.950]  So all the talks are being archived and saved.
[49:22.990 --> 49:25.970]  And it's a great history lesson to see just what it was that we were talking about.
[49:26.150 --> 49:30.370]  And every conference we've had has been really enlightening as far as the kind of talks that we get.
[49:30.710 --> 49:31.890]  Okay, I'd like to open up the phone lines.
[49:32.010 --> 49:32.730]  We only have a few minutes left.
[49:32.830 --> 49:34.370]  212-209-2900.
[49:34.370 --> 49:40.570]  But the thing we alluded to as far as the hotel, yeah, somehow we all missed this story.
[49:40.570 --> 49:46.390]  And I really do think, as we said on our website, the reason we missed it was because it was in the New York Post.
[49:46.830 --> 49:50.930]  And I think only Jim reads the New York Post, and he hasn't been here the last couple of weeks.
[49:51.050 --> 49:53.130]  So nobody knew about this.
[49:53.230 --> 50:03.870]  But apparently, as you may know, we've been talking about saving the Hotel Pennsylvania, how it's been slated for destruction, how Vernado wants to build a huge office tower.
[50:04.270 --> 50:08.070]  And according to the story in the New York Post, they're now having second thoughts about that.
[50:08.570 --> 50:21.270]  Due to the state of the economy, due to the fact that the West Side Yards are being developed and all kinds of buildings are going up over there, that would be competition as far as getting tenants for a huge office tower.
[50:21.470 --> 50:25.590]  Due to the fact that the World Trade Center is going to be opening and more tenants down there.
[50:25.590 --> 50:37.470]  due to the fact that the hotel makes a lot of money, might make more sense to refurbish the hotel, keep it standing, and basically not go through with those plans.
[50:37.630 --> 50:40.610]  I guess reserve the plans, have the right to do it in the future if they shall choose.
[50:41.330 --> 50:47.430]  But what seems to be a really good outcome, a really good decision, keeping Hotel Pennsylvania right where it is.
[50:47.530 --> 50:53.670]  That's what it looks like right now, at least for the interim, at least for the next couple of conferences, if you want to measure time that way.
[50:54.170 --> 50:58.430]  So I think that's... it's a great bit of news to start the new year with.
[50:58.570 --> 51:02.470]  So you mean as soon as the economy does better again, then all of a sudden...
[51:02.470 --> 51:03.330]  I don't know.
[51:03.530 --> 51:04.210]  I don't know.
[51:04.350 --> 51:06.210]  Let's keep our fingers crossed that it doesn't get any better.
[51:06.390 --> 51:09.490]  Probably if they invest money in the renovation, they're not going to tear it down.
[51:09.690 --> 51:11.410]  You don't know how capitalism works, do you?
[51:12.210 --> 51:14.750]  But also, maybe it'll look nicer.
[51:15.590 --> 51:17.630]  Also, maybe it'll be too expensive for us to use in the future.
[51:17.750 --> 51:18.130]  But you know what?
[51:18.150 --> 51:22.610]  If we did get kicked out of there because it's too expensive, I'd still rather have the hotel standing than not standing.
[51:23.070 --> 51:27.510]  Yeah, and just to put everyone's mind at rest, we will definitely have it for this summer.
[51:27.930 --> 51:32.290]  Yeah, they've assured us that the likelihood of being torn down during the conference is slim.
[51:33.130 --> 51:34.350]  So that's good to know.
[51:34.470 --> 51:34.990]  That'd be fun.
[51:35.230 --> 51:36.210]  Well, no, I don't think so.
[51:36.450 --> 51:37.810]  212-209-2900.
[51:37.930 --> 51:38.570]  Let's take some phone calls.
[51:38.630 --> 51:38.910]  Good evening.
[51:39.050 --> 51:39.830]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:40.090 --> 51:40.830]  Oh, hi.
[51:40.950 --> 51:53.730]  You know, Emmanuel, a few years ago, many years ago, actually, you gave out a number on the air that people could call from their own home phone, you know, a landline phone, in order to have the phone ring, like to test the phone.
[51:53.830 --> 51:54.450]  Okay, yeah.
[51:54.590 --> 51:55.610]  Well, where are you located?
[51:55.810 --> 51:58.050]  I'm in the village, East Village.
[51:58.390 --> 51:59.330]  All right, it's possible.
[51:59.330 --> 52:01.130]  I haven't done this in a long time.
[52:01.130 --> 52:07.230]  But the way it used to work in New York City was 660, followed by your full seven-digit phone number.
[52:07.350 --> 52:09.050]  You'd get some kind of a dial tone.
[52:09.450 --> 52:12.610]  You'd flash the switch hook, and your phone would ring back.
[52:12.610 --> 52:13.790]  I don't know if that still works.
[52:13.790 --> 52:21.170]  In some parts of the state, it was 230, followed by the last four digits of your number, 250, all kinds of different things.
[52:21.170 --> 52:24.690]  I'm not sure they even still use that system anymore, but that's what it used to be.
[52:24.790 --> 52:25.070]  Okay.
[52:25.430 --> 52:25.730]  All right?
[52:25.890 --> 52:29.630]  What you can always do, which is always fun, is dial 958 to get your phone number.
[52:30.210 --> 52:32.490]  That still amazes people that you can do things like that.
[52:33.010 --> 52:33.550]  All right.
[52:33.890 --> 52:35.190]  212-209-2900.
[52:35.270 --> 52:35.510]  Good evening.
[52:35.610 --> 52:36.350]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:37.670 --> 52:38.210]  Speak up.
[52:38.370 --> 52:38.730]  Oh, Rebel.
[52:38.870 --> 52:39.670]  No, he's running through the phone.
[52:40.030 --> 52:40.650]  Good evening.
[52:41.210 --> 52:42.270]  I cut him off at the pass.
[52:42.370 --> 52:42.570]  Good evening.
[52:43.890 --> 52:44.370]  Hello?
[52:44.630 --> 52:45.030]  Yes, go ahead.
[52:46.650 --> 52:55.190]  Speaking on the early subject of countries that censor the Internet, could you provide any kind of information about Internet censorship in Cuba?
[52:56.410 --> 52:57.290]  That's my question.
[52:57.290 --> 52:59.370]  Well, Mike and I went to Cuba.
[52:59.610 --> 53:04.010]  Mike, I think you actually went into the Cuban Internet Cafe that was only for Cuban citizens.
[53:04.270 --> 53:05.970]  Yeah, that was much less interesting.
[53:06.230 --> 53:07.270]  Should I not have said that?
[53:07.270 --> 53:15.590]  The primary censorship that they do in Cuba is just to make it very expensive and thus unaffordable to most people.
[53:16.250 --> 53:18.730]  There's some blocking of websites.
[53:19.130 --> 53:22.970]  And, of course, things may have changed since we were last there, although not a whole lot.
[53:24.910 --> 53:36.610]  If you want to get around censorship in Cuba or anywhere else, you should check out a program called Tor, and T-O-R is the name, and download that, and it will help you defeat censorship.
[53:36.670 --> 53:38.310]  Wait, you're not actually calling from Cuba, are you?
[53:39.130 --> 53:39.690]  Excuse me?
[53:39.770 --> 53:41.050]  You're not calling from Cuba, are you?
[53:41.230 --> 53:42.050]  No, I wish.
[53:42.290 --> 53:42.450]  Okay.
[53:42.450 --> 53:49.010]  No, but I do communicate with some folks there, and they're very careful about what they write.
[53:50.690 --> 53:52.450]  They kind of write in code.
[53:53.110 --> 53:55.190]  Yeah, that happens in a lot of places.
[53:55.790 --> 54:04.070]  Well, it seems that Cuba is one of them right here on the continent, and also I've been told that until recently, you just couldn't go in and buy a computer.
[54:05.170 --> 54:10.250]  That has been modified recently, but for many, many years, you couldn't even buy one.
[54:10.250 --> 54:25.090]  You had to have a register, or the only access that you had on the internet was through, for instance, if you're a doctor working at a government hospital, then you have a lot, I think you told me, about 20 hours a month.
[54:26.190 --> 54:32.610]  Well, it's interesting because there are a lot of countries that monitor what their citizens do on the internet.
[54:32.610 --> 54:34.330]  They are very paranoid about this.
[54:34.530 --> 54:47.970]  You know, I say that almost every country in the world condemns what North Korea does as far as total control of its citizens and the way that they have supposedly everybody brainwashed, but there is not one government in the world that does not take notes and say,
[54:48.050 --> 54:49.130]  wow, how could we do this?
[54:49.510 --> 54:50.590]  Thanks for that call.
[54:50.670 --> 54:52.570]  Let's take one more, if we can squeeze it in.
[54:52.670 --> 54:53.030]  Good evening.
[54:53.150 --> 54:53.930]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:54.810 --> 54:56.150]  Hey, how's it going, guys?
[54:56.250 --> 54:56.610]  Hi, what's up?
[54:57.410 --> 55:00.310]  Yeah, I just wanted to say, you know, I think you guys are just outstanding.
[55:00.710 --> 55:07.070]  The 2600 magazine was like one of the greatest, positivist moments in my life when I came in contact with that magazine.
[55:07.070 --> 55:07.550]  Well, thanks.
[55:07.630 --> 55:08.530]  I hope it can continue.
[55:08.990 --> 55:09.530]  Oh, absolutely.
[55:09.750 --> 55:12.950]  And I tell everybody that I know, I say, read this magazine.
[55:13.130 --> 55:14.330]  This is what's going on.
[55:14.470 --> 55:14.650]  All right.
[55:14.670 --> 55:16.970]  Not to sound too much like an infomercial, but...
[55:16.970 --> 55:17.450]  No, no, no.
[55:17.450 --> 55:17.890]  I don't mean it.
[55:17.950 --> 55:18.350]  I just...
[55:18.350 --> 55:19.190]  It had a great effect.
[55:19.270 --> 55:20.570]  I'm not a computer enthusiast.
[55:20.630 --> 55:22.390]  I'm really a philosopher, first of all.
[55:22.390 --> 55:24.070]  And I think you guys are taking...
[55:24.630 --> 55:28.850]  You know, you guys are raising some questions that are just not really being raised anywhere else.
[55:28.930 --> 55:30.070]  But I just want to...
[55:30.070 --> 55:35.190]  What I want to say is that I would like to see the hackers step up in this day of activism.
[55:35.190 --> 55:36.150]  You know, I think...
[55:36.150 --> 55:37.190]  Oh, I think you're seeing that.
[55:37.330 --> 55:37.870]  I think you're seeing that.
[55:37.870 --> 55:38.210]  Oh, yeah.
[55:38.430 --> 55:38.770]  Oh, yeah.
[55:38.950 --> 55:39.350]  Definitely.
[55:39.690 --> 55:44.850]  But, I mean, Anonymous as a particular organization, I mean, the dialogue that you guys bring to the table.
[55:45.010 --> 55:49.070]  I would like you guys to have more say in what goes on at BAI.
[55:49.270 --> 55:58.490]  And I'd like you guys to be maybe not so modest in a way about putting some real proposals forward about some things that we need to change in our daily lives as conscientious people.
[55:58.490 --> 55:58.890]  Okay.
[55:59.110 --> 56:00.850]  Well, we're out of time, but write to us with more specifics.
[56:01.030 --> 56:02.490]  O-T-H at 2600.com.
[56:02.610 --> 56:03.790]  Great points there.
[56:04.210 --> 56:05.990]  Any last words from our folks on the phone?
[56:08.050 --> 56:08.410]  Oh.
[56:09.190 --> 56:09.750]  Yeah, it'll be you.
[56:12.590 --> 56:14.490]  I can only concur with our caller.
[56:14.790 --> 56:20.590]  It's a 2600 magazine is a great adjunct to off the hook.
[56:20.670 --> 56:20.930]  Okay.
[56:21.050 --> 56:21.910]  And you can't have one...
[56:21.910 --> 56:23.270]  It's like peanut butter and jelly.
[56:23.390 --> 56:24.370]  You can't have one without the other.
[56:24.530 --> 56:25.310]  Anything from Seattle?
[56:25.970 --> 56:28.670]  Hey, everybody, stay tuned and pay attention.
[56:28.670 --> 56:43.610]  And if you can, contribute and volunteer, get out there, affect change in your world, and be a part of some of the things that we're talking about, like the conference or anything happening with technology and stuff that's impacting your world.
[56:43.770 --> 56:46.690]  Yeah, visit www.hope.net for more information on that.
[56:46.850 --> 56:49.710]  Yeah, and one more way to get out there, 2600 meetings everywhere this Friday.
[56:50.110 --> 56:50.390]  All right.
[56:50.450 --> 56:50.990]  Thanks for listening.
[56:51.110 --> 56:51.870]  We'll see you next week.
[56:53.890 --> 56:58.870]  The computer, an extension of the human intellect.
[57:00.670 --> 57:13.590]  The Encom 511, center of the most calculating intelligence on Earth, programmed by master control to survive by all means.
[57:15.030 --> 57:20.210]  Soon, the ultimate tool will become the ultimate enemy.
[59:01.770 --> 59:03.850]  Hey, all right.
[59:04.050 --> 59:08.050]  It's WBAI, New York 99.5 FM.