[00:00.000 --> 00:00.620]  ...of the future.
[00:00.860 --> 00:08.080]  There will be a reception facilitated by Robert Knight for 6 to 7, followed by a lecture and a book signing from 7 to 10 p.m.
[00:08.540 --> 00:14.420]  at the New York Society for Ethical Culture, 2 West 64th Street at Central Park West.
[00:14.720 --> 00:22.440]  For information, call 212-209-2800 or link on the WBAI.org webpage.
[00:32.960 --> 00:38.980]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York, where the time is 7.01.
[00:39.380 --> 00:41.680]  Time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[00:49.070 --> 00:53.570]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:54.510 --> 00:59.030]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:59.670 --> 01:01.910]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:04.530 --> 01:07.310]  A billy bump for the best, expect the worst.
[01:08.030 --> 01:09.850]  I hope that's understood.
[01:09.990 --> 01:10.890]  One day, let me know.
[02:23.610 --> 02:24.590]  And good evening, everybody.
[02:24.730 --> 02:25.570]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:25.650 --> 02:29.170]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, post-fundraising.
[02:29.490 --> 02:33.730]  Back to our normal programming, as normal as it can be here on WBAI.
[02:34.470 --> 02:36.570]  And I'm joined tonight by Mike.
[02:36.790 --> 02:37.170]  Hello.
[02:37.490 --> 02:37.810]  Dotret.
[02:38.890 --> 02:39.110]  Hello.
[02:39.410 --> 02:39.870]  Rob T.
[02:40.050 --> 02:40.530]  Firefly.
[02:40.910 --> 02:41.310]  Good evening.
[02:41.830 --> 02:42.310]  Redhack.
[02:42.510 --> 02:42.770]  Hello.
[02:43.690 --> 02:43.990]  Kyle.
[02:44.350 --> 02:44.870]  Hi, everybody.
[02:45.410 --> 02:45.730]  Jim.
[02:46.070 --> 02:46.230]  Hello.
[02:46.230 --> 02:47.530]  And Bernie S.
[02:47.570 --> 02:48.110]  down in Philadelphia.
[02:48.430 --> 02:49.750]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:50.770 --> 02:51.170]  Okay.
[02:51.170 --> 02:53.870]  We have a lot of people here, Johnny.
[02:54.410 --> 02:58.110]  I'm not quite sure why, but more people than we've had in quite a while, which is good.
[02:58.210 --> 02:58.870]  And a lot to talk about.
[02:59.970 --> 03:01.910]  Yes, hackers are in the news again.
[03:02.410 --> 03:03.010]  Yet again.
[03:03.510 --> 03:04.930]  Front page of the New York Times.
[03:05.170 --> 03:06.010]  Front page of everything.
[03:06.010 --> 03:12.950]  And, yes, we're going to be talking about that, the latest developments in an ongoing saga that never seems to end.
[03:13.050 --> 03:20.970]  But before we dive into that, I'd like to focus on a couple of other things that might not be quite as momentous, but certainly...
[03:20.970 --> 03:21.970]  Thank you, Jim.
[03:22.050 --> 03:23.750]  He's holding up a headline.
[03:24.290 --> 03:24.830]  Front page.
[03:24.990 --> 03:26.210]  Is that... What paper is that?
[03:26.290 --> 03:27.410]  AM New Yorker?
[03:27.730 --> 03:28.050]  All right.
[03:28.550 --> 03:28.990]  Wow.
[03:29.070 --> 03:29.530]  Front page.
[03:30.270 --> 03:32.070]  What's the... Hackers cracked.
[03:32.110 --> 03:33.370]  That's the headline there.
[03:33.550 --> 03:34.530]  Hackers have been cracked.
[03:35.030 --> 03:35.770]  How about that?
[03:36.670 --> 03:36.890]  Wow.
[03:37.330 --> 03:37.570]  Yeah.
[03:37.710 --> 03:40.070]  We should have a competition for our listeners.
[03:40.090 --> 03:45.010]  What's the worst headline in the country on this one story?
[03:45.210 --> 03:45.430]  Yeah.
[03:45.610 --> 03:47.550]  That wouldn't be too hard to... something.
[03:47.730 --> 03:49.710]  I'm sure there are a lot of competitors for that.
[03:50.030 --> 03:52.350]  OTH at 2600.com if you have an entry.
[03:52.810 --> 03:53.170]  Please.
[03:53.330 --> 03:54.650]  And send us a picture, too.
[03:54.810 --> 03:56.990]  And don't make your own newspaper just to make the headline.
[03:57.690 --> 03:59.510]  We've fallen for that before, and it's not going to happen again.
[03:59.670 --> 04:01.050]  It's got to be a real paper that we can verify.
[04:01.290 --> 04:03.790]  We'll start your own newspaper to be the media.
[04:03.790 --> 04:08.490]  If you start your own newspaper, you're going to have to continue day after day, and then we're going to check up on you.
[04:08.650 --> 04:08.890]  Yeah.
[04:09.270 --> 04:09.510]  All right.
[04:09.570 --> 04:15.090]  I encourage our listeners to do that as well, but it's a lot more investment than just sending us a link to an existing newspaper.
[04:15.370 --> 04:15.630]  All right.
[04:15.710 --> 04:22.890]  So before we get into that, and of course, we'll be taking listener phone calls, too, with a special caveat, which we'll get into later, but we will take listener phone calls.
[04:22.990 --> 04:24.030]  It's just going to be a bit of a challenge.
[04:24.890 --> 04:26.050]  All the fun we have here.
[04:26.830 --> 04:28.510]  This is a story that...
[04:28.510 --> 04:32.310]  Actually, Kyle, you found this, and I've been simply fascinated by it.
[04:32.310 --> 04:36.070]  But a bunch of hackers all over the planet have been looking into this.
[04:36.210 --> 04:40.470]  The headline, basically, is amateur astronomers flash the space station.
[04:41.870 --> 04:49.550]  Now, you might interpret that in all sorts of weird ways, but the only way to really interpret it is that a bunch of hackers on the ground...
[04:49.550 --> 04:50.150]  And I say hackers.
[04:50.310 --> 04:51.010]  They're amateur astronomers.
[04:51.170 --> 04:51.990]  Same thing, okay?
[04:52.110 --> 04:52.990]  It really is the same thing.
[04:53.030 --> 04:58.750]  If you ever hung out with amateur astronomers, you can't be with a more hacker-ish group of people, as far as I'm concerned.
[04:59.750 --> 05:05.110]  And basically, well, Kyle, you seem to know this better than me, as far as what they actually did down there in Texas.
[05:05.330 --> 05:06.490]  Do you want to explain it for us?
[05:06.730 --> 05:12.610]  Yeah, there was a discussion going on, on a list that I participated in, in Seattle.
[05:12.790 --> 05:15.810]  And basically, people were talking a lot about this having been done.
[05:16.050 --> 05:20.750]  And the impetus of it was a blog post by somebody on the space station.
[05:20.750 --> 05:24.430]  And I think Petty, what's the astronaut's name?
[05:25.670 --> 05:27.210]  You put me on the spot here, but...
[05:27.210 --> 05:27.470]  Sorry about that.
[05:27.650 --> 05:28.250]  Don Petit.
[05:28.470 --> 05:29.090]  Don Petit.
[05:29.210 --> 05:29.510]  I'm sorry.
[05:29.890 --> 05:32.910]  And so, he did a blog post about flashing ISS.
[05:33.230 --> 05:44.530]  And when you say flashing ISS, what it really means is people attempting to use light to flash the space station such that the space station sees it.
[05:44.870 --> 05:46.570]  And it sounds kind of easy to do.
[05:46.570 --> 05:52.530]  And we've heard stuff like this before about, like, people using lasers and, like, pointing them at airplanes, doing stupid things like that.
[05:52.870 --> 05:55.850]  This is a little different, but pretty much the same thing.
[05:55.970 --> 06:11.950]  So, there's a video online where you can just see everybody sort of hanging out in a field by an observatory, pointing this laser up and basically flashing it, turning it off, turning it on, or putting something in front of it, and literally pointing it directly at the space station,
[06:11.950 --> 06:13.170]  which you can see up in the sky.
[06:13.170 --> 06:17.570]  By the way, I just want to ask in the room, how many of you have ever seen a space station up in the sky?
[06:18.190 --> 06:19.170]  Dot, you're raising your hand.
[06:19.310 --> 06:19.530]  I have.
[06:19.530 --> 06:21.130]  I'm sure the listeners can appreciate that.
[06:21.230 --> 06:21.850]  Bernie has.
[06:21.950 --> 06:22.510]  Mike, no?
[06:22.670 --> 06:23.650]  I think I have, yeah.
[06:23.790 --> 06:23.950]  Yeah?
[06:24.450 --> 06:24.770]  Rob T.
[06:24.850 --> 06:25.130]  Firefly?
[06:25.250 --> 06:25.330]  No?
[06:25.450 --> 06:25.670]  Red Hat?
[06:26.250 --> 06:26.510]  Jim?
[06:26.850 --> 06:27.070]  Yeah?
[06:27.190 --> 06:27.530]  You saw it?
[06:27.570 --> 06:27.990]  Okay, great.
[06:28.210 --> 06:29.790]  So, of course, Kyle, you have and I have.
[06:30.570 --> 06:31.930]  Yeah, it's an amazing thing.
[06:32.030 --> 06:33.650]  Bernie, you want to share what it's like?
[06:33.790 --> 06:34.650]  It's very easy.
[06:34.890 --> 06:38.510]  It just, it looks like a bright star that's moving across the sky.
[06:38.510 --> 06:42.390]  It's in a low Earth orbit, so it doesn't, it's not in a fixed position.
[06:42.630 --> 06:46.890]  In a few minutes, it'll be out of sight after it crosses the sky.
[06:47.310 --> 06:48.610]  And you can look it up.
[06:48.690 --> 06:49.570]  There's various websites online.
[06:49.570 --> 06:51.790]  You can find what its path is.
[06:52.110 --> 06:53.470]  And it's quite amazing.
[06:53.610 --> 06:55.070]  Some people with telescopes have seen it.
[06:55.430 --> 07:00.770]  You can actually pick out people who have used telescopes, like amateur astronomers, like you're just talking about great hackers.
[07:00.770 --> 07:15.770]  Some of them have actually used, like, charge couple devices, like detectors, solid-state detectors, like from a camera, to get pretty well-defined images of the space shuttle from the ground.
[07:15.950 --> 07:17.510]  You know, you can see the solar panels and everything.
[07:17.690 --> 07:18.850]  That is amazing.
[07:19.590 --> 07:31.750]  So, based on this post that the astronaut had posted, it basically was, people started talking about it because he was remarking that it's been attempted, but no one's ever done it, ever.
[07:32.790 --> 07:38.930]  And so that, it had only been talked about for a couple weeks since he posted his blog post.
[07:39.050 --> 07:42.750]  And I guess, as a response to the original post, a couple weeks later, it happened.
[07:42.830 --> 07:45.110]  In fact, it happened over the weekend on Saturday.
[07:46.130 --> 07:52.650]  And he posted a follow-up or, like, an update, and it actually was successfully done by this group in Texas.
[07:52.830 --> 07:57.390]  So, you've mentioned the people that point lasers up into the sky.
[07:57.410 --> 08:00.610]  And, and cause pilots to get angry and things like that.
[08:01.110 --> 08:13.650]  Now, is there, is there, like, a risk that they could inadvertently do this by pointing a laser up into the sky and anger some airplane pilots at the same, or be seen as, as evil people by, by the powers that be?
[08:13.790 --> 08:14.010]  Yes.
[08:14.170 --> 08:14.350]  Yes.
[08:14.490 --> 08:14.770]  Absolutely.
[08:14.990 --> 08:23.710]  And in fact, in, in the video and, and some of the planning, you, you could tell that they had, they were, they had people looking out for planes and stuff like that.
[08:23.710 --> 08:26.570]  So, it obviously, I think, I think it was a concern, definitely.
[08:27.090 --> 08:34.270]  So, and Don Petit, the astronaut on board, sent an email the next day, according to one of the, the observers on the ground.
[08:34.730 --> 08:38.630]  He told us how bright it was, how he could see the lights, even before we started the flash system.
[08:38.730 --> 08:42.470]  He saw it from 10 degrees above, from the west to 10 degrees from the northeast.
[08:43.350 --> 08:45.970]  And to everyone's surprise, he could also see the blue laser.
[08:46.090 --> 08:54.890]  When the spotlights were off, he said he could still see the blue laser, which was shown steadily, I was pretty surprised that the laser light was that visible from space.
[08:55.530 --> 09:08.670]  And according to, to one of the, the people organizing all of this, of the 65 amateur astronomers who were there, we had two people manually aiming the lights, two people holding plywood up over the lights, and they were manually tracking the space station.
[09:08.770 --> 09:09.710]  It doesn't get any better than that.
[09:10.050 --> 09:17.110]  And this also is something that people, if you're trying to flash the space station, it's something to keep in mind, this, this comes from, from one of the astronauts there.
[09:17.110 --> 09:20.490]  Ironically, when earthlings can see us, we cannot see them.
[09:20.710 --> 09:25.870]  The glare from the full sun effectively turns our windows into mirrors that return our own ghostly reflection.
[09:26.130 --> 09:30.430]  This often plays out when friends want to flash space station from the ground as it travels overhead.
[09:30.570 --> 09:36.490]  They shine green lasers, xenon strobes, and halogen spotlights at us as we sprint across the sky.
[09:36.770 --> 09:40.590]  These well-wishers don't know that we cannot see a thing during this time.
[09:40.710 --> 09:46.450]  The best time to try this is during a dark pass, when orbital calculations show that we are passing overhead.
[09:46.450 --> 09:55.190]  This becomes complicated when highly, a word I've never said before, collimated light, collimated light from lasers are used.
[09:55.330 --> 09:58.230]  It means a light that's all going in one direction.
[09:58.230 --> 10:01.430]  So if you have a light bulb, the light comes out in every which way.
[10:01.530 --> 10:05.730]  But if you have a laser, it's a very narrow fixed beam that's called collimated light.
[10:06.030 --> 10:07.930]  Amazing things you can learn just by listening to the radio.
[10:08.510 --> 10:13.790]  Anyway, since the beam diameter at our orbit distance is about one kilometer, and this spot has to be tracking us while in the dark.
[10:13.790 --> 10:18.950]  And of course, we have to be looking, as often happens, technical details complicate what seems like a simple observation.
[10:18.950 --> 10:22.550]  So far, all attempts at flashing the space station have failed.
[10:22.930 --> 10:23.650]  Until now.
[10:23.950 --> 10:24.190]  That's right.
[10:24.690 --> 10:25.130]  Yeah.
[10:25.430 --> 10:32.470]  As you kind of touched on the whole issue of the collimated light, people are wondering just how newsworthy of a story this is.
[10:32.470 --> 10:38.170]  You realize it's like throwing a dart over 90 miles and hitting a bullseye.
[10:38.470 --> 10:39.690]  I forget the exact distance.
[10:40.170 --> 10:43.070]  And you have atmospheric distortion on top of that.
[10:43.410 --> 10:45.950]  And as an added bonus, all our astronauts are now blinded.
[10:46.170 --> 10:47.370]  I hope you're all very happy.
[10:49.110 --> 10:50.810]  Bernie, any thoughts on this?
[10:50.950 --> 10:55.010]  Yeah, it may not be quite as challenging as was just described.
[10:55.810 --> 11:05.010]  All lasers are not perfectly collimated, and the beam does expand as the distance increases.
[11:05.470 --> 11:15.150]  So the distance to the space shuttle means that the width of the laser beam is probably hundreds, if not thousands, of feet across at that point.
[11:15.290 --> 11:20.890]  I mean, it's still a hard target, but it's not like you're a pencil-thin beam.
[11:20.890 --> 11:23.170]  You're trying to hit the spatial width.
[11:23.170 --> 11:28.730]  Bernie, actually, in the original discussion, people were remarking that by the time the beam gets there, the diameter of it is about a kilometer.
[11:29.050 --> 11:29.190]  Yeah.
[11:29.410 --> 11:38.990]  So they had to compensate, and I don't know exactly what they did technically to change the properties of the beam, but it was all sort of like, you know, their homebrew gear.
[11:39.150 --> 11:42.210]  And it's really remarkable, if you can catch the video and check it out.
[11:42.230 --> 11:55.490]  And the thing is, when you describe this to people, they say, really, you're this emotional about flashing a light from the Earth and spending all this time to get somebody in space to see it, and that makes you happy.
[11:56.210 --> 12:01.370]  And when people say that, implying that it's a tremendous waste of time, that, my friends, is the definition of hacking.
[12:01.590 --> 12:07.010]  That's when people just don't get it, and they don't understand the passion, but you want to spend as much time as possible doing it.
[12:07.430 --> 12:08.350]  That's what it's all about.
[12:08.350 --> 12:10.630]  Well, there are uses for these sorts of things.
[12:10.790 --> 12:15.210]  They always start out as very strange things that few people can see an application by.
[12:15.230 --> 12:19.730]  For instance, when radio waves were first discovered, what did they say about radio waves?
[12:19.810 --> 12:20.830]  Oh, this is useless.
[12:20.850 --> 12:23.690]  It's just some thing that's just there in the background.
[12:23.890 --> 12:26.950]  There's always uses for these things, no matter how strange it might seem.
[12:27.170 --> 12:30.450]  There are still people who say that radio waves are useless, but...
[12:30.450 --> 12:32.610]  I'll say that for anyone who uses cell phones and so on.
[12:32.610 --> 12:34.910]  We'll give out the number for you folks to call in just a little while.
[12:36.010 --> 12:36.270]  Okay.
[12:36.330 --> 12:36.450]  Kyle.
[12:38.350 --> 12:46.190]  Has anyone experimented yet, or have they ever put equipment on the space station yet for modulating any of these light sources?
[12:46.510 --> 12:46.910]  Right.
[12:47.150 --> 12:53.070]  So you could develop like a Ronja system where you get optical data transmission or something?
[12:53.250 --> 12:53.650]  Well, no.
[12:53.770 --> 13:05.170]  More like Alexander Graham Bell's photophone, which he considered a more important invention than the telephone, which modulated a beam of sunlight, but we could do that with lasers and other sources of light.
[13:05.170 --> 13:08.730]  And then you demodulate it into sound at the other end.
[13:08.890 --> 13:10.130]  I think that would be really cool.
[13:10.250 --> 13:13.110]  But you'd have to keep the beam tracked perfectly in everything.
[13:13.770 --> 13:13.910]  Yeah.
[13:13.990 --> 13:14.870]  It would be really interesting.
[13:15.030 --> 13:15.390]  I'm sure...
[13:15.390 --> 13:20.970]  I mean, there's definitely technology to set up a Galvo such that you could track something like that.
[13:21.050 --> 13:22.630]  Or even if it was higher up.
[13:22.710 --> 13:30.690]  I mean, if it was a satellite that stays in a fixed position and tracks Earth, that would be even more practical because then you're not dealing with having to follow it.
[13:30.810 --> 13:31.850]  It's just a straight beam.
[13:32.470 --> 13:34.970]  But yeah, it's definitely possible.
[13:35.150 --> 13:35.870]  It's really interesting.
[13:36.030 --> 13:47.530]  And it's really cool to see people on the ground and people that aren't professionals or part of some agency getting involved and just trying different cool things to reach a milestone like this, you know, because now it's been done.
[13:47.810 --> 13:58.690]  It's probably also worth noting that this is a far easier task than what has been done for decades, which is hitting a retroreflector on the lunar surface.
[13:58.910 --> 14:07.010]  There's retroreflectors on the Moon that scientists have hit with a laser to very precisely measure the Earth-Moon distance.
[14:07.530 --> 14:10.630]  That, my friends, is a tough target.
[14:11.530 --> 14:11.950]  Interesting.
[14:12.170 --> 14:13.890]  Now, what are these things on the Moon?
[14:14.090 --> 14:15.470]  They're called retroreflectors.
[14:15.650 --> 14:17.010]  And does anybody know who put them there?
[14:17.270 --> 14:17.550]  Yeah.
[14:18.350 --> 14:19.790]  The aliens did, of course.
[14:20.010 --> 14:20.830]  Oh, okay.
[14:22.150 --> 14:22.570]  Wow.
[14:23.730 --> 14:25.310]  Again, I'm just learning so much.
[14:25.450 --> 14:26.190]  No, the U.S.
[14:26.250 --> 14:28.090]  has put them up there, the various Apollo missions.
[14:28.470 --> 14:34.250]  There's retroreflectors that are more commonly seen on the tops of, like, sailboats.
[14:34.450 --> 14:36.550]  It's basically, those are like radar retroreflectors.
[14:36.550 --> 14:37.490]  It kind of looks like a...
[14:38.190 --> 14:48.130]  It basically means that when a signal hits it, a wavefront hits it, whether it's a beam of light or a radio signal, it bounces back in the same direction that it was hit from.
[14:49.130 --> 14:54.130]  So if you shoot a laser at a retroreflector, you get a laser beam pointed right back at you at the same direction.
[14:54.290 --> 14:56.150]  Bernie, it's more or less a mirror, yeah?
[14:56.470 --> 15:09.790]  Yeah, but it's a mirror that no matter from what direction you hit it, it will bounce your beam of light back in the same direction you hit it from, unlike a flat mirror, which will We'll bounce it off at some angle if it's not... if it's not perfectly flat against you.
[15:09.930 --> 15:10.870]  So it's a disco ball.
[15:11.610 --> 15:12.270]  Well, no.
[15:12.810 --> 15:14.110]  It's a retro reflector.
[15:14.230 --> 15:14.490]  It's different.
[15:14.630 --> 15:16.250]  A disco ball will shoot it off in different directions.
[15:16.470 --> 15:16.890]  All right.
[15:17.270 --> 15:21.050]  Let's stop trying to poke holes in Bernie's mirror here, or whatever it is.
[15:22.290 --> 15:23.210]  But that's cool.
[15:23.630 --> 15:24.850]  A lot of cool things out there.
[15:24.950 --> 15:25.930]  A lot of cool things in space.
[15:26.110 --> 15:28.570]  And keep reaching for the skies and all that kind of thing.
[15:29.090 --> 15:30.050]  But we must move on.
[15:30.110 --> 15:31.430]  We have other things to discuss.
[15:31.590 --> 15:34.190]  Now, this is a story, actually, that we knew about for a couple of weeks.
[15:35.210 --> 15:38.310]  And it kind of involves us in a weird way.
[15:38.610 --> 15:43.150]  Apparently, the government is going around monitoring social media sites.
[15:43.950 --> 15:55.510]  And according to them, they have a current list of terms that they use to provide situational awareness and establish a common operating picture.
[15:56.650 --> 16:00.550]  As natural or man-made disasters occur, new search terms may be added.
[16:01.030 --> 16:02.390]  But we're already in there.
[16:03.030 --> 16:05.350]  We're already in there for some kind of a disaster.
[16:06.050 --> 16:09.270]  They basically divide these up into different categories.
[16:10.010 --> 16:13.570]  For instance, under DHS and other agencies, they basically list the agencies.
[16:14.130 --> 16:18.490]  Coast Guard, Central Intelligence Agency, Border Patrol, Secure Border Initiative, that kind of thing.
[16:19.370 --> 16:20.210]  Domestic security.
[16:20.210 --> 16:21.530]  A lot of interesting words in there.
[16:21.830 --> 16:28.130]  Assassination, attack, domestic security, cops, shots fired, militia, lockdown, crash, looting, pipe bomb.
[16:28.430 --> 16:28.930]  Things like that.
[16:32.390 --> 16:40.530]  On words like cloud, plume, leak, chemical, burn, nerve agent, anthrax, blister agent, spillover, and North Korea.
[16:42.810 --> 16:44.170]  Health concern.
[16:45.430 --> 16:46.150]  H1N1.
[16:46.370 --> 16:54.610]  Salmonella, smallpox, listeria, agriculture, influenza, bacteria, avion, agro-terror, and swine.
[16:55.570 --> 16:57.270]  Along all sorts of other things.
[16:57.410 --> 16:59.090]  It's really incredible what we have here.
[17:00.290 --> 17:01.170]  Infrastructure security.
[17:02.050 --> 17:13.410]  Basically have a list of all kinds of agencies, such as Port Authority, and BART, and Morda, Metro, collapse, bridge, cancel, delays.
[17:13.730 --> 17:15.990]  I can't believe delays is a word that they would be looking for.
[17:15.990 --> 17:24.530]  So, Amiel, if I say, if I were in San Francisco and I said, gee, it's cloudy today, I think I'll take the BART instead of biking, like, that could get on this list?
[17:24.590 --> 17:25.470]  It could get on this list.
[17:25.610 --> 17:27.030]  I don't exactly know how it works.
[17:27.070 --> 17:28.050]  We're going to get into it in just a moment.
[17:28.150 --> 17:29.810]  Also, Southwest border violence.
[17:30.050 --> 17:30.970]  This is a good one.
[17:32.150 --> 17:39.590]  Gang, violence, drug, narcotics, Yuma, Nueva León, Guzman, all kinds of names of people.
[17:39.750 --> 17:40.550]  Bust is one of them.
[17:41.170 --> 17:42.730]  And then, of course, you have terrorism.
[17:42.970 --> 17:45.290]  And this is basically a who's who of terrorism.
[17:45.290 --> 17:46.550]  You've got IRA.
[17:46.590 --> 17:47.410]  You've got ETA.
[17:47.510 --> 17:48.450]  You've got PLF.
[17:48.510 --> 17:49.330]  You've got PLO.
[17:49.450 --> 17:58.590]  You've got car bombs, jihad, al-Shabaab, Somalia, Nigeria, radicals, Islamist, nuclear, agro, Pakistan, suspicious substance, et cetera.
[17:58.810 --> 17:59.370]  How many words?
[17:59.830 --> 18:01.590]  You know, I didn't count them, but it's quite a few.
[18:01.750 --> 18:02.090]  Quite a few.
[18:02.270 --> 18:03.470]  It's about four pages long.
[18:03.970 --> 18:05.150]  Weather, disaster, emergency.
[18:05.350 --> 18:09.430]  You also have tremor, flood, storm, crest, temblor, all kinds of things like that.
[18:09.430 --> 18:19.990]  Now, when you get to cybersecurity, you get words like hacker, freaking, worm, China, malware, and 2600.
[18:20.250 --> 18:20.590]  Really?
[18:20.910 --> 18:21.570]  Yes, folks.
[18:21.570 --> 18:22.430]  We are in there.
[18:22.550 --> 18:23.230]  We made the list.
[18:23.450 --> 18:32.450]  So whenever you say 2600 in a social media setting, someone somewhere in the government might be monitoring that and taking an interest.
[18:32.550 --> 18:35.310]  I guess that means that people shouldn't reply to the account on Twitter.
[18:35.750 --> 18:36.570]  I don't know.
[18:36.770 --> 18:38.870]  Yeah, we do have our 2600 Twitter account.
[18:38.910 --> 18:42.090]  So maybe if you say something, you might get logged somewhere.
[18:42.310 --> 18:44.310]  But this seems like a really broad net.
[18:44.450 --> 18:45.030]  I mean, it depends.
[18:45.530 --> 18:46.670]  How are they filtering this?
[18:46.750 --> 18:48.410]  If they're just looking for some of these words.
[18:48.530 --> 18:54.490]  I mean, you know, you could be talking about cloud computing and suddenly, you know, that means you're talking about, you know, nuclear disasters.
[18:55.010 --> 18:59.150]  Well, you know, they'll look at you until they realize that you are, in fact, innocent talking about cloud computing.
[18:59.150 --> 19:00.130]  Then they'll move on to the next person.
[19:00.170 --> 19:00.630]  But that's the thing.
[19:00.930 --> 19:07.330]  You know, there's so many updates and so many various things out there that could match, that I can just think of off the top of my head that could match a number of these words.
[19:07.610 --> 19:12.070]  That, you know, are they looking at every single one or do they have some algorithm to parse it out?
[19:12.750 --> 19:21.510]  Because, you know, if you have so much data coming by you, it kind of turns into, like, the London security cameras where there's just so much that you can't process at all.
[19:21.670 --> 19:24.130]  So I wonder how smart they are about it.
[19:24.230 --> 19:27.230]  I don't think it's necessary, but, you know, it's not my call.
[19:27.370 --> 19:27.990]  I counted them.
[19:28.730 --> 19:29.630]  You did count them.
[19:29.690 --> 19:30.310]  Okay, how many are there?
[19:30.410 --> 19:35.630]  I mean, a rudimentary count using a word processor comes up with 1,050 words.
[19:36.570 --> 19:40.310]  And whatever you do, do not review the next action film you see on the Internet.
[19:42.050 --> 19:47.730]  Well, I think, obviously, the amount of terms that are being used here, this definitely has to be running through computers.
[19:47.830 --> 19:59.170]  And that kind of really draws on the point of, with any action you take online and posts you make on various social media, you're going to be getting logged onto several different lists of interest.
[19:59.410 --> 20:03.150]  And there's really... there's no way you can avoid using all these terms.
[20:03.350 --> 20:07.970]  So saying 2,600 in a... like, seriously, you're going to be put in for saying cloud?
[20:08.810 --> 20:10.130]  Everyone's going to be in because of that.
[20:10.130 --> 20:11.170]  Well, maybe if you say both.
[20:11.450 --> 20:20.130]  Maybe if you say... and that's another point to point... thing to make is that the more terms you use, the more often you use, that might increase your noteworthiness.
[20:20.550 --> 20:25.670]  Another one of my favorites on this list is under cybersecurity, one of the terms they look for on social media is social media.
[20:25.670 --> 20:26.230]  Yes.
[20:26.470 --> 20:28.230]  Well, it's kind of predictable.
[20:30.190 --> 20:32.730]  So what's interesting... so this is pretty stupid, right?
[20:32.910 --> 20:36.570]  But what's scary is that their algorithms are only going to get better.
[20:36.730 --> 20:38.950]  And so maybe they don't do anything now.
[20:39.130 --> 20:47.210]  But they're going to be able to detect, at some point in the future, the difference between me saying it's cloudy today, I think I'll take the BART.
[20:47.410 --> 20:54.410]  And on a cloudy day, we will release a cloud of sarin gas on the BART.
[20:54.410 --> 20:57.370]  They're going to be able to detect the difference and come after me.
[20:58.190 --> 20:59.870]  And that is the frightening part.
[21:00.090 --> 21:04.730]  Yeah, I mean, you can apply natural language processing and kind of try to infer meaning a little bit more.
[21:05.170 --> 21:17.930]  Obviously, there are kind of rankings that you could do where, okay, if somebody is mentioning these words in conjunction or, you know, has been talking about this kind of subject a lot, maybe there's something we should look at manually.
[21:18.430 --> 21:20.490]  So there are ways, obviously, to refine it.
[21:20.550 --> 21:23.810]  And it may seem silly for us that these words, you know, seem so broad.
[21:23.810 --> 21:27.150]  But again, you know, they just could be used in some kind of system, right?
[21:27.230 --> 21:29.710]  It doesn't necessarily mean they're just looking at every use of them.
[21:29.850 --> 21:30.030]  Right.
[21:30.090 --> 21:36.470]  And they will probably also rank it such that if you posted the whole list, they'd throw it out because obviously they're trying to mess with you or something.
[21:36.670 --> 21:36.810]  Yeah.
[21:36.850 --> 21:41.990]  So if you're going to do that and add words to your email so that you do get flagged, don't add all the words or they'll just ignore you.
[21:42.130 --> 21:44.710]  Of course, we could be giving them more credit than they deserve.
[21:45.750 --> 21:51.870]  Well, I would have to agree with Mike that the longer this goes on, the better these algorithms are going to work.
[21:54.750 --> 22:05.150]  So there's no telling exactly how much importance might be drawn to a single word or what collection of words and what sort of order or how frequently you actually get flagged or how often someone gets flagged.
[22:05.390 --> 22:07.510]  Chances are everyone gets flagged to some degree, though.
[22:07.870 --> 22:13.350]  The other thing I would caution is that it is not reasonable to assume that this tool will be used wisely.
[22:13.350 --> 22:20.030]  If you remember the case we discussed not that long ago about the kids from, where were they, England, who are flying to the U.S.
[22:20.050 --> 22:30.330]  and they were saying, we're going to dig up Marilyn Monroe's grave, whatever they were saying, and they weren't let in the country because even with human review, the U.S.
[22:30.410 --> 22:33.130]  government was not able to determine that these were harmless kids.
[22:35.070 --> 22:41.210]  So this tool is going to be used to restrict people's civil liberties, whether they're guilty of anything or not.
[22:42.250 --> 22:46.790]  And as the algorithms get better and better, they're only going to be used to repress more and more people.
[22:46.850 --> 22:48.390]  And it's beginning.
[22:48.750 --> 22:50.250]  But you know what word is not on there?
[22:50.450 --> 22:51.330]  The word hope.
[22:51.570 --> 22:53.090]  The word hope is not on that list.
[22:53.190 --> 23:01.170]  So you can say on social media that, yes, I will be attending the HOPE conference this summer in New York City, and you will not be flagged anywhere.
[23:01.350 --> 23:10.810]  However, do not say that you will be visiting the HOPE conference sponsored by 2600 or anything like that, hackers or cyber terror or North Korea.
[23:11.030 --> 23:11.950]  Don't use those words.
[23:12.330 --> 23:13.870]  And everything should be okay.
[23:14.030 --> 23:17.590]  I mean, I think people should say whatever they want, but just be aware that...
[23:17.590 --> 23:18.390]  Well, that's dangerous talk there.
[23:18.530 --> 23:23.170]  Just be aware that whatever you say publicly and whatever you say on the Internet can be used against you.
[23:23.270 --> 23:25.890]  And as we're seeing, more and more will be used against you.
[23:26.030 --> 23:30.850]  So just be aware when you're posting things publicly or even not publicly, who knows, right?
[23:30.970 --> 23:39.070]  I mean, who knows who's working closely with the government that, you know, these things can come back to bite you.
[23:39.290 --> 23:41.250]  Honestly, just remember one thing.
[23:41.350 --> 23:43.570]  The Internet is not really private.
[23:43.570 --> 23:50.250]  If you're going to say anything at all on the Internet, whether you think it's public or private, imagine that many, many, many people are reading.
[23:50.370 --> 23:51.450]  Imagine that it's public.
[23:51.890 --> 23:54.790]  And, you know, you're not going to go very far.
[23:54.790 --> 23:59.670]  You know, as we've seen in the past, you know, the government will make demands of various companies.
[23:59.950 --> 24:02.770]  Twitter happened to, you know, make public that they were...
[24:02.770 --> 24:08.610]  that the private tweets of certain individuals associated with WikiLeaks were requested by the government.
[24:08.610 --> 24:10.450]  But that's not necessarily true all the time.
[24:10.610 --> 24:16.010]  So, like Eli said, you know, it's not necessarily what you think is private or public.
[24:16.930 --> 24:17.410]  Yeah.
[24:17.550 --> 24:17.710]  Yeah.
[24:17.710 --> 24:19.890]  Okay, well, that's certainly...
[24:19.890 --> 24:34.730]  You know, one thing that gets me, though, you notice that every time somebody is accused of plotting some kind of terrorist act, not something that's worse necessarily, but some kind of action, they always somehow go through the FBI first.
[24:34.730 --> 24:43.630]  They always somehow are transferred over to their bomb-making people that supply them with what they think are real bombs or plans for that.
[24:43.790 --> 24:46.630]  And it just makes me wonder, you know, where are the actual terrorists?
[24:46.630 --> 24:53.270]  Because every time you express an interest, whether it be online or in person, to blow something up, you wind up talking to the FBI.
[24:53.610 --> 24:57.510]  It's just amazing how that happens, isn't it?
[24:57.610 --> 25:02.930]  Well, it's fortunate that relatively few people actually do care to bomb things.
[25:03.090 --> 25:04.850]  And most of them work for the U.S.
[25:04.890 --> 25:05.150]  government.
[25:05.310 --> 25:05.970]  It seems that way.
[25:06.090 --> 25:06.690]  It really does.
[25:06.870 --> 25:15.430]  And, you know, I just wonder, if you go out there on the Internet and you express that kind of a desire, who's to say you're not just trying to meet some federal agents?
[25:15.430 --> 25:17.530]  Because that's invariably what you're going to wind up doing.
[25:17.710 --> 25:20.870]  And it could be just some kind of, you know, weird game that you like to play.
[25:20.990 --> 25:22.670]  I mean, no one wants to meet federal agents.
[25:22.790 --> 25:23.950]  Well, some people...
[25:23.950 --> 25:25.010]  Yeah, we won't go into that.
[25:25.370 --> 25:32.070]  I think what we're fortunate in is the fact that most wannabe terrorists aren't very competent and don't really have the connections.
[25:32.070 --> 25:37.830]  And so when they go out seeking the kinds of connections they would need to do anything, they end up, you know, coming across law enforcement before...
[25:37.830 --> 25:40.010]  You'd think by now they'd have the connections, though, you know?
[25:40.010 --> 25:42.790]  Well, worldwide, through the internet, all that kind of thing.
[25:42.870 --> 25:43.170]  It just...
[25:43.170 --> 25:46.590]  It amazes me sometimes how, like you say, they're inept.
[25:46.850 --> 25:49.190]  They can't seem to put it together.
[25:49.410 --> 25:59.050]  But I mean, think about, you know, for example, you know, last week we had the Yes Men on and they're able to fool conferences and large companies into thinking that they're very public entities.
[25:59.310 --> 26:05.890]  And so, you know, how difficult must it be for someone to try to find, you know, a group that's trying to remain clandestine, right?
[26:06.450 --> 26:08.630]  So, yeah, I don't know.
[26:08.770 --> 26:12.230]  I mean, and obviously, if you're law enforcement, you want to be, you know, found, right?
[26:12.390 --> 26:14.090]  If by these wannabe terrorists.
[26:14.370 --> 26:15.170]  So, it's kind of...
[26:15.170 --> 26:17.450]  Did you see the Yes Men's new thing?
[26:17.830 --> 26:22.850]  I saw something yesterday which I knew was the Yes Men before it got identified as the Yes Men.
[26:23.150 --> 26:24.270]  This is the Happy Meal thing, right?
[26:24.350 --> 26:24.550]  Yeah.
[26:24.590 --> 26:24.890]  Yeah, yeah.
[26:25.010 --> 26:25.590]  Tell us about this.
[26:25.630 --> 26:28.010]  Apparently, so people may not know if they're not from New York.
[26:28.150 --> 26:45.170]  The New York Police Department has this thing called Stop and Frisk where if they think you might be up to something, they'll stop you and frisk you and then you probably aren't up to anything so they'll let you go and surprise, surprise, most of the people they do this to are young men of color.
[26:45.830 --> 26:47.790]  Is this the subway thing or is this something else?
[26:48.170 --> 26:49.910]  This is not the thing in the subway.
[26:50.090 --> 26:51.790]  This is just people hanging out on the street.
[26:52.610 --> 26:54.990]  They do it in the subway too but that's a separate program.
[26:55.150 --> 27:05.210]  Anyway, so what the Yes Men did was they sent out a press release from the New York Police Department at McDonald's saying that if you get Stop and Frisk three times you can get a free Happy Meal for it.
[27:05.830 --> 27:13.730]  Which to me just adds insult to injury but apparently enough people thought that was a good thing where they actually expressed happiness about this.
[27:14.390 --> 27:18.810]  What exactly is the point of the frisking to find what weapons, drugs, all of the above?
[27:19.130 --> 27:19.930]  Well, you're missing the point.
[27:19.990 --> 27:20.770]  It's about the Happy Meal.
[27:20.850 --> 27:21.930]  That's what we're talking about.
[27:21.930 --> 27:24.370]  There isn't one as far as I can detect.
[27:24.630 --> 27:24.950]  Fishing.
[27:25.890 --> 27:27.030]  Fishing, you say, Barney?
[27:27.210 --> 27:40.050]  It's their, you know, when they're on duty they really can't go out in the river and lakes and ocean and go fishing so they go fishing amongst the populace and just go on fishing expeditions and see what they can stick their hands into.
[27:40.050 --> 27:52.110]  But we should point out that when you're in the subway and you get approached by one of those nice cops behind a big table that want you to hand over your bag so they can rummage through it you have the right to walk away from that.
[27:52.830 --> 27:55.170]  Of course, you can't get into the subway system.
[27:55.310 --> 27:56.050]  They'll block you from that.
[27:56.090 --> 28:01.210]  Of course, you can't go across the street or to the next subway and get in there or just go to a bus instead.
[28:01.950 --> 28:04.030]  But hopefully you're not about to blow something up.
[28:04.730 --> 28:06.150]  I don't know about on the street though.
[28:06.250 --> 28:07.330]  Can you just walk away from that?
[28:08.330 --> 28:14.690]  I think you can say no but it's intimidating when a group of police officers come and say hey, we're going to frisk you now.
[28:14.990 --> 28:15.190]  Right, right.
[28:16.450 --> 28:17.670]  Most people will comply.
[28:18.210 --> 28:26.530]  And you know, I don't think we should be judging and saying that that's wrong what they do the people that is because until you're in that situation you don't know how you're going to react.
[28:26.630 --> 28:41.870]  The same thing happened to me and this was documented years ago on this radio show in North Carolina where I consented to having my rental car searched because basically I was asked with one cop behind me in a car and another cop sitting next to me and obviously I was in the middle of North Carolina so yeah,
[28:41.990 --> 28:46.890]  I consented and I wasn't happy about it but sometimes you have to do things that you're not happy with.
[28:46.950 --> 28:51.470]  Just remember in most cases you're not under any obligation to comply with the search.
[28:52.150 --> 29:01.970]  The only way that a police officer can search your person or your vehicle or anything like that is if A, they have a warrant or B, they have a reasonable suspicion which
[29:09.350 --> 29:10.690]  they have to say they see something.
[29:10.810 --> 29:11.330]  Big difference.
[29:11.590 --> 29:12.470]  Well, sure.
[29:13.150 --> 29:20.890]  But I mean the point is that you are protected and you don't have to comply with illegal searches even if they tell you that they have every right to search your car.
[29:20.990 --> 29:21.430]  They can lie.
[29:21.570 --> 29:21.890]  Of course.
[29:22.090 --> 29:34.750]  In that track there is also not trying to be arrogant about that right which you're supposed to have and not using what could be interpreted as a condescending tone because then if the cop gets annoyed they can start saying they saw something.
[29:35.330 --> 29:42.090]  You want to make sure that you're not getting on someone's bad side because then it goes from saying I'm exercising my rights to you're not cooperating with an officer.
[29:42.310 --> 29:44.830]  So that's true what you said, Red Hacked.
[29:44.950 --> 29:55.590]  You don't have to comply but this does not absolve the police of the evil they're doing where they're going around asking people if they can search them and that's the problem.
[29:55.610 --> 30:09.170]  So obviously the police are doing something that they shouldn't be doing but I think it also helps just for people to know that they're not allowed to do that and so generally the best thing to do is just say am I free to go or just say no.
[30:09.390 --> 30:11.410]  Don't get into an argument just say no.
[30:11.470 --> 30:14.690]  I mean if they have no reason then they can't really do anything.
[30:14.810 --> 30:17.530]  They can't arrest you for refusing to be searched.
[30:17.770 --> 30:30.530]  Yeah and this is something I've gotten familiar with crossing over into borders basically just say as little as possible and just let them do their thing and try not to have my rights violated too much and just you gotta be you gotta be patient.
[30:30.770 --> 30:45.010]  And they're doing the job too so it's more work for them if they're really trying to make something up and they know it's not gonna stick I mean they really have to want to go out on a limb with some big fabrication so I mean if you just kind of stick to your guns and stay calm right?
[30:45.010 --> 31:04.270]  I think with police officers generally they use people's ignorance that they don't realize that they can refuse and so the moment that you consent then they can search you but as long as you know that you don't have that you have to actively consent then as long as you stick to that then you're all good.
[31:04.710 --> 31:36.190]  Okay, now moving on to our feature presentation of the night this is the story you've probably heard all about and that is should I read one of the headlines here I guess we can read this from the Huffington Post hackers reeling after FBI takedown led by Moll who who was one of the alleged leaders of the anonymous collective known as Sabu yeah it's very interesting because I think some of us have
[31:36.190 --> 31:45.450]  actually talked to him as well in one form or another he's somebody that was very very not You didn't see his face.
[31:45.590 --> 31:51.770]  You didn't know who he was, but he was a name associated with the Anonymous Collective and with LULSEC last year.
[31:52.090 --> 32:19.610]  And to find out that in actuality, this guy was talking to the feds for at least the last nine months or so and helping them to find various people responsible for various hacker activities, I suppose, ranging from Arab Spring activities to to hacking Nintendo's website or the Fox News Network,
[32:19.850 --> 32:21.470]  New York Times, all kinds of things.
[32:22.330 --> 32:24.350]  It's kind of unsettling, kind of unsettling.
[32:24.430 --> 32:25.650]  But, you know, it's not a surprise.
[32:25.650 --> 32:27.970]  I don't know if anybody is really surprised by this.
[32:28.290 --> 32:34.130]  If you are, look at our talk from the Next Hope where, you know, what did we say, Bernie?
[32:34.230 --> 32:35.470]  It was one in four hackers?
[32:35.670 --> 32:36.790]  One in five is an informant?
[32:36.790 --> 32:42.650]  Well, I mean, I think that number was just sort of pulled out of the sky, but it would not be surprising if one... And it varies.
[32:42.830 --> 32:44.490]  It's a fungible number.
[32:44.710 --> 32:46.690]  It could be every other hacker.
[32:46.910 --> 32:48.210]  It could be one in five, one in four.
[32:48.350 --> 32:56.750]  It really depends on the circumstances and how much pressure is applied to the person who the feds want to be an informant.
[32:57.590 --> 33:09.530]  I mean, in this case, the FBI reportedly told Sabu, I don't have his real name here in front of me, but that he would not be able to see his two children, his two young children for a long time.
[33:09.590 --> 33:10.290]  Yeah, and that's the thing.
[33:10.290 --> 33:11.450]  I'm looking at the Fox story.
[33:11.550 --> 33:12.570]  Fox actually broke this.
[33:12.610 --> 33:16.330]  I guess they were very happy to break the story since Anonymous hacked their website.
[33:17.010 --> 33:18.290]  But that was one of the things.
[33:18.750 --> 33:21.130]  Apparently, they did this whole good cop, bad cop thing.
[33:22.710 --> 33:23.970]  Here's how they describe it.
[33:24.450 --> 33:28.290]  The agents worked their prey using the time-honored good cop, bad cop routine.
[33:28.570 --> 33:33.430]  Bad cop stormed out of the apartment yelling, that's it, no deal, it's over, we're locking you up.
[33:34.030 --> 33:40.250]  The computer genius, as they describe him, finally gave in, surrendering to the most cliched tool in the law enforcement arsenal.
[33:40.470 --> 33:42.330]  But the agents had more than just skills.
[33:42.330 --> 33:43.530]  They had leverage.
[33:44.010 --> 33:46.570]  One of the two agents recalled it was because of his kids.
[33:46.570 --> 33:48.030]  He'd do anything for his kids.
[33:48.030 --> 33:50.630]  He didn't want to go away to prison and leave them.
[33:50.910 --> 33:52.110]  That's how we got him.
[33:52.210 --> 33:57.570]  Now, with that in mind, how do we blame somebody for acting like this?
[33:57.690 --> 34:04.510]  How do we blame somebody for turning in his compatriots or working with them to save his family?
[34:04.650 --> 34:05.310]  I don't understand.
[34:05.370 --> 34:06.490]  This happened in his apartment?
[34:06.750 --> 34:06.830]  Yeah.
[34:06.830 --> 34:08.610]  This didn't happen in an interrogation room?
[34:08.650 --> 34:09.670]  No, they burst in as...
[34:09.670 --> 34:11.410]  With a lawyer present or anything like that?
[34:11.430 --> 34:11.550]  Right here in New York City.
[34:11.650 --> 34:12.430]  No, this happened in New York City.
[34:12.430 --> 34:20.490]  These were agents that knocked on his door right by the FDR drive and basically intimidated him.
[34:20.590 --> 34:21.490]  And yeah, that's what happens.
[34:21.610 --> 34:22.650]  It happens all the time.
[34:22.650 --> 34:23.470]  We see it constantly.
[34:23.590 --> 34:24.910]  Bernie, you saw this, right?
[34:25.270 --> 34:25.570]  Sure.
[34:25.910 --> 34:30.090]  I mean, they tried to intimidate me for Secret Service a decade and a half ago.
[34:30.330 --> 34:31.750]  I was not in...
[34:31.750 --> 34:40.810]  You know, in all fairness, you know, I can't claim that, you know, I'm more resilient than Sabu was because I didn't have any kids.
[34:41.070 --> 34:45.350]  I wasn't in a romantic relationship at the time.
[34:45.350 --> 34:51.310]  I had no real family members that were, you know, connected to me closely at that moment.
[34:51.470 --> 34:59.530]  It's just the bottom line is I was sort of a lone person and it didn't matter to me how this would affect people around me.
[34:59.830 --> 35:03.930]  So in his case, he had way more to lose.
[35:04.150 --> 35:04.370]  Right.
[35:04.450 --> 35:06.010]  And these are the authorities that are good at it.
[35:06.090 --> 35:06.550]  Read 1984.
[35:06.590 --> 35:10.310]  They know how to make people betray each other.
[35:10.630 --> 35:15.770]  That is what they do, which is why you never want to put yourself in a position where you can do that or where you're the target.
[35:15.950 --> 35:16.870]  And that was the mistake they made.
[35:16.890 --> 35:20.870]  But what I don't understand is it sounds like from the story that he didn't even have a lawyer or anything to...
[35:20.870 --> 35:21.370]  No, of course not.
[35:21.590 --> 35:21.790]  Right.
[35:21.950 --> 35:23.490]  So that brings another point up.
[35:23.550 --> 35:28.610]  Never talk to the authorities without a lawyer because it will never, ever, ever work in your favor.
[35:28.790 --> 35:37.490]  But of course, this was a guy who was unemployed, was on welfare, was supporting, I think, what, five brothers and two kids and all kinds of things like that.
[35:37.570 --> 35:40.070]  So calling the lawyer probably wouldn't be as easy as...
[35:40.070 --> 35:41.350]  Yeah, but you can still get a public defender.
[35:41.650 --> 35:44.310]  You're under no obligation to talk to the authorities either.
[35:44.490 --> 35:47.150]  I mean, if they're going to arrest you, they're going to arrest you whether or not you talk to them.
[35:47.350 --> 35:47.490]  Right.
[35:48.190 --> 35:49.570]  These are easy things to say.
[35:49.670 --> 35:50.350]  No, I know they're easy things to say.
[35:50.350 --> 35:52.110]  When it's actually happening in your own house.
[35:52.250 --> 35:52.850]  I understand it.
[35:52.890 --> 35:53.650]  And don't get me wrong.
[35:53.730 --> 35:56.050]  You know, I'm not an apologist or any of this stuff.
[35:56.390 --> 35:59.290]  I'm just saying that this happens over and over again.
[35:59.410 --> 36:00.230]  And we need to learn from it.
[36:00.270 --> 36:00.830]  We need to move on.
[36:00.910 --> 36:02.690]  We need to expect this to happen.
[36:02.830 --> 36:04.410]  I'm amazed how many people are surprised by that.
[36:04.410 --> 36:10.650]  But what I'm saying is that right now we have a platform with the radio to tell people that this is... I mean, that kind of thing is unacceptable.
[36:10.690 --> 36:13.690]  If you ever find yourself under arrest, don't talk to the police.
[36:13.810 --> 36:13.930]  Right.
[36:14.030 --> 36:15.030]  Unless you have a lawyer present.
[36:15.170 --> 36:17.790]  Because A, the lawyer will know the law much better than you do.
[36:17.930 --> 36:19.530]  We'll know what the police are trying to do.
[36:20.170 --> 36:21.310]  There's a great talk online.
[36:21.310 --> 36:22.230]  I don't remember off the top of my head.
[36:22.270 --> 36:25.370]  It's a professor talking about why you should never talk to law enforcement.
[36:25.630 --> 36:31.230]  And he had a counter argument given by a police officer who opened with everything that guy just said is right.
[36:31.470 --> 36:31.670]  Right.
[36:34.410 --> 36:35.250]  They will take you away though.
[36:35.330 --> 36:36.170]  And that's something to keep in mind.
[36:36.250 --> 36:37.290]  They will take you...
[36:37.290 --> 36:42.170]  They will arrest you, take you out of your home before you have the ability to make that phone call.
[36:42.510 --> 36:43.370]  And that's something...
[36:43.370 --> 36:44.670]  But it's a right that you have.
[36:44.750 --> 36:45.470]  It's a right you have.
[36:45.550 --> 36:47.350]  And a lot of people won't want that to happen.
[36:47.350 --> 36:49.290]  And that's why they crack at that point.
[36:49.930 --> 36:54.850]  I just wanted to add to what RedHack said that, you know, a lawyer is also going to be much less emotionally attached.
[36:54.950 --> 36:56.550]  They're not, you know, personally threatened.
[36:56.570 --> 36:57.770]  It's not their family necessarily.
[36:57.770 --> 36:59.370]  So they're going to keep sort of a cool head.
[36:59.570 --> 37:01.590]  Whereas you might be, you know, your heart might be racing.
[37:01.730 --> 37:03.870]  You might not know exactly what to say.
[37:03.990 --> 37:05.410]  You might misspeak or something.
[37:05.470 --> 37:06.350]  And they know how to get you.
[37:06.350 --> 37:07.730]  They know how to get your emotions up.
[37:07.750 --> 37:09.790]  Fear is a really strong tool that the police use.
[37:09.870 --> 37:15.090]  But the fact of the matter is that these kinds of things aren't going to be decided based on what you do in those first five minutes.
[37:15.210 --> 37:17.050]  They're going to be decided much later by the courts.
[37:17.050 --> 37:22.530]  And so really you're at a disadvantage if you act rashly, which is what it sounds like he did.
[37:22.690 --> 37:27.030]  So just if, I mean, hopefully none of our listeners ever find ourselves in a similar predicament.
[37:27.110 --> 37:39.010]  But if you do realize that what happens in that instant is not going to affect you in the long term and you're better off just kind of, you know, keeping quiet and sorting everything out and dealing with it as it comes.
[37:39.110 --> 37:44.650]  But the thing to remember is that you will have armed men in your home telling you otherwise.
[37:45.390 --> 37:49.950]  And we can say now that, yeah, don't believe them and listen to what we're saying on the radio tonight.
[37:50.330 --> 37:52.250]  It's going to be very different when that happens.
[37:52.390 --> 37:53.150]  You're going to be intimidated.
[37:53.370 --> 37:54.570]  You're going to want to be their friend.
[37:54.570 --> 37:57.550]  You're going to want to just not have this continue any further.
[37:57.710 --> 37:59.470]  And they will tell you, yeah, you can go get a lawyer.
[37:59.630 --> 38:00.510]  You can go that route.
[38:00.530 --> 38:02.970]  But it's going to be much more unpleasant just like they do on TV.
[38:03.610 --> 38:04.850]  I'm just saying it's...
[38:04.850 --> 38:08.230]  Don't expect it to be easy when that happens because it's very difficult.
[38:08.230 --> 38:12.970]  But realize, you know, what your rights are and that keeping a cool head...
[38:12.970 --> 38:14.890]  Look, you've gotten caught, right?
[38:14.910 --> 38:15.710]  You're in trouble already.
[38:15.890 --> 38:16.630]  You're going to be arrested.
[38:17.410 --> 38:18.790]  There's no way out of that.
[38:19.090 --> 38:29.290]  And so at that moment, you know, if you can, you know, try to keep a cool head then and, you know, try to get a lawyer and all of that because, you know, just talking yourself is just going to talk you into a corner.
[38:29.430 --> 38:34.730]  And nothing that the police officers promise necessarily has to be... is going to be true, right?
[38:34.730 --> 38:36.110]  They can say whatever they want.
[38:36.350 --> 38:39.110]  The police, the authorities are entitled to lie as much as they want.
[38:39.270 --> 38:43.870]  And so, you know, just hopefully, again, none of our listeners ever find ourselves in that situation.
[38:43.890 --> 38:46.090]  But realize... and look up that talk if you can.
[38:46.170 --> 38:49.650]  I can't remember what it's called, but just, you know, look for... never talk to the police.
[38:49.970 --> 38:54.830]  Well, I mean, it's interesting because, you know, you say, yeah, you've been caught.
[38:55.190 --> 38:55.930]  It's all over.
[38:56.070 --> 39:00.530]  But many times when they knock on the door, that's the first moment you ever even suspect you've been caught.
[39:00.530 --> 39:06.210]  And in this particular case, you know, someone with anonymous, you know, it was kind of surprising.
[39:06.370 --> 39:11.510]  And apparently the way he got caught was just once, just once not shielding his IP.
[39:11.650 --> 39:13.290]  And it showed up, I think, in an IRC chat room.
[39:13.370 --> 39:17.030]  And from that, they were able to figure out where he was, who he was.
[39:17.130 --> 39:18.070]  And they went to his door.
[39:18.150 --> 39:18.650]  And here's the thing.
[39:18.730 --> 39:20.610]  He said, when they knocked on the door, it's not me.
[39:20.690 --> 39:21.310]  You got the wrong guy.
[39:21.310 --> 39:22.270]  I don't have a computer.
[39:22.850 --> 39:27.410]  And of course, right behind them, the Ethernet cable and the DSL modem had the lights were flashing on and off.
[39:27.550 --> 39:29.810]  So it wasn't a very good, good roost there.
[39:29.810 --> 39:31.490]  I mean, I don't want to be misinterpreted here.
[39:31.630 --> 39:33.270]  You know, he's alleged to commit crimes.
[39:33.430 --> 39:37.930]  And, you know, those are crimes that if, you know, he's found guilty of, he'll have to be held accountable for.
[39:38.950 --> 39:41.230]  But, you know, sometimes that's not the case.
[39:41.330 --> 39:47.130]  And so I just, you know, I think it's important that people realize that there's a right way to handle things and a wrong way to handle things.
[39:48.450 --> 39:49.910]  And then let the courts decide it.
[39:49.910 --> 39:57.030]  Well, the issue here, like if you really think, if you really think about what we've been saying is, all right, you know, these guys bust in the door and you're scared.
[39:57.030 --> 39:58.610]  You want to get out of, you know, being in trouble.
[39:58.690 --> 40:00.890]  And they're telling you, well, you're going to be in trouble unless you do this.
[40:00.890 --> 40:03.630]  Because you're talking about people being uninformed.
[40:03.950 --> 40:11.050]  And if you're going to be in this sort of issue, I think, like, again, I want to reiterate, hopefully none of our listeners ever find themselves in such of a situation.
[40:12.250 --> 40:12.690]  But...
[40:12.690 --> 40:13.450]  It does tend to happen.
[40:13.690 --> 40:14.750]  It does happen on occasion.
[40:15.990 --> 40:19.630]  And honestly, people, hackers, should be thinking about it like hackers.
[40:19.770 --> 40:24.130]  They should learn about the system before they ever encounter it.
[40:24.130 --> 40:29.970]  You know, if you know what to expect, if you have a basic understanding of how these things work, you'll...
[40:29.970 --> 40:38.130]  If, you know, something like that ever happens, whether you're wrongfully or rightly accused, you'll have an idea of what exactly you're treading into.
[40:38.250 --> 40:39.390]  You know, it's RTFM.
[40:39.510 --> 40:42.970]  You shouldn't just jump into something without any idea of what's going on.
[40:43.010 --> 40:44.510]  Because then you're going to be blindsided.
[40:44.710 --> 40:50.670]  Even if you plan, never do anything illegal, you should still be aware of this.
[40:50.770 --> 40:53.150]  Because, you know, you never know what will happen.
[40:53.150 --> 40:54.350]  You never know what can come...
[40:54.350 --> 40:56.710]  Someone can, you know, use your wireless network.
[40:56.710 --> 40:58.510]  And then suddenly you've got the police at your door.
[40:58.670 --> 41:00.210]  And, you know, you say the wrong thing.
[41:00.370 --> 41:02.810]  And, you know, you end up convicted, even though you've never done anything wrong.
[41:02.870 --> 41:07.470]  So I think that these kinds of rules and things are good to know.
[41:07.790 --> 41:08.210]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[41:08.490 --> 41:11.090]  I just want to follow up on what Redhack said.
[41:11.310 --> 41:24.750]  Not only are federal law enforcement officers and, you know, run-of-the-mill police state and local police encouraged to lie to suspects in order to get them to confess or give up information.
[41:26.090 --> 41:28.030]  So you can expect them to lie to you.
[41:28.070 --> 41:30.790]  But it doesn't work both ways.
[41:30.790 --> 41:35.870]  If you lie to a federal law enforcement officer, you have committed a felony.
[41:36.470 --> 41:39.570]  It's a felony to lie to a federal law enforcement officer.
[41:39.570 --> 41:51.450]  If you just say, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, or I didn't do that, or I wasn't there, and they can convince a jury otherwise, you'll be convicted of a felony.
[41:51.650 --> 41:59.630]  Remember, Martha Stewart, no hacker, she went to federal prison for lying to the FBI, not for insider trading, which she was probably guilty of.
[41:59.710 --> 42:03.190]  But the bottom line is that's why you really need to keep your mouth shut.
[42:03.310 --> 42:06.790]  And you might even be quoted out of context and accused of lying when you didn't.
[42:06.790 --> 42:09.470]  So the best thing is, don't say anything.
[42:10.510 --> 42:10.870]  Exactly.
[42:11.110 --> 42:12.590]  You might not even intentionally lie.
[42:12.730 --> 42:15.310]  And just, you know, like we said before, you're scared, you know, spur of the moment.
[42:15.490 --> 42:22.010]  And it might just come out, or you may speak something, a half-truth, and then you get convicted on that as opposed to, you know, what the original thing was.
[42:22.090 --> 42:25.690]  So just, you know, keep a cool head and don't say anything.
[42:26.770 --> 42:29.110]  It's too bad we couldn't have this broadcast a week ago.
[42:29.330 --> 42:30.230]  That would have happened.
[42:30.530 --> 42:31.950]  Actually, you know what, this is not the case.
[42:32.050 --> 42:34.390]  Yeah, this happened, I think it was last, was it June?
[42:34.570 --> 42:35.530]  When did it actually happen?
[42:36.010 --> 42:39.750]  You know, I didn't really have time to go over the entire thing, but...
[42:39.750 --> 42:42.190]  It's quite long and dense.
[42:42.390 --> 42:44.530]  It is long and dense, much like the authorities.
[42:44.710 --> 42:44.970]  I'm sorry.
[42:45.870 --> 42:46.270]  But...
[42:46.270 --> 42:47.490]  The authorities aren't long.
[42:48.490 --> 42:49.550]  Yeah, okay, I guess not.
[42:49.730 --> 42:51.590]  I have to figure out how to apply that word.
[42:51.790 --> 42:52.010]  Last summer.
[42:52.010 --> 43:01.590]  But what they have here in this document, this indictment, I guess, which was released yesterday, was released on Tuesday.
[43:02.130 --> 43:07.290]  Well, first of all, how did it become clear that Sabu was cooperating?
[43:07.410 --> 43:10.510]  Because none of these documents say it clearly that he was the one.
[43:10.650 --> 43:13.490]  They identify a witness through some kind of code.
[43:13.610 --> 43:18.890]  And I guess maybe if you look at IRC chat logs, you figure out who's actually the one talking?
[43:18.890 --> 43:28.410]  I think also we've talked about this before and that it tends to be, oh, well, this person was convicted or was in court at this date and then suddenly there was an informant, right?
[43:28.490 --> 43:31.650]  And you can kind of put two and two together without doing much.
[43:31.850 --> 43:32.090]  Okay.
[43:32.570 --> 43:34.250]  Yeah, I just wasn't exactly sure how they...
[43:34.250 --> 43:36.970]  I mean, it's obvious, but I just was trying to figure out...
[43:36.970 --> 43:46.550]  Even if the witness isn't named, but, you know, if somebody who is related to that group was suddenly in trouble shortly before there was an informant, then, you know, it's a pretty good chance that that person's the informant.
[43:46.730 --> 43:53.530]  Well, now, in this document, though, in this indictment, there's, you know, it really reads like a resume at, you know, in some places.
[43:54.410 --> 44:05.150]  On or about January 2011, the defendant participated in Operation Tunisia, in which members of Anonymous launched cyberattacks against the computer system used by the government of Tunisia.
[44:05.150 --> 44:07.270]  Operation Algeria, same thing.
[44:07.430 --> 44:08.290]  Operation Yemen.
[44:08.770 --> 44:09.930]  Operation Zimbabwe.
[44:10.190 --> 44:15.690]  All of these totalitarian countries being attacked by a bunch of freedom-loving hackers.
[44:16.190 --> 44:20.130]  But then, of course, and you wonder, you know, are they actually going to get charged with that?
[44:20.230 --> 44:27.170]  Are the United States authorities really going to stand up for repressive regimes and charge these hackers?
[44:27.390 --> 44:28.290]  They do that all the time.
[44:28.290 --> 44:28.710]  Of course.
[44:28.830 --> 44:33.190]  But then you get the more obvious ones and the reasons why this is actually happening.
[44:33.190 --> 44:47.330]  And that's, well, the defendant participated in a cyberattack on computer systems used by HP Gary, a cyberattack on computer systems used by Fox, and all these American corporations that were, I guess, victims.
[44:47.530 --> 44:49.690]  Sony Pictures, Sony Music, the U.S.
[44:49.830 --> 44:55.390]  Senate, InfraGard Atlanta, Bethesda Software, just goes on and on and on.
[44:55.550 --> 44:59.150]  And, you know, I look at all this and I say to myself, so what?
[44:59.150 --> 45:01.570]  It's, you know, these people needed a wake-up call.
[45:01.810 --> 45:12.770]  And in cases where the Arizona Police Department is using racial profiling, I think it's great to release the names of all the cops in Arizona, whatever it is that was done in that particular case.
[45:12.910 --> 45:19.690]  But, of course, then you move on a little further and you see that there was credit card fraud, credit cards allegedly being sold and things like that.
[45:19.690 --> 45:21.670]  And that's what I have problems with.
[45:21.810 --> 45:28.350]  Those are real crimes when people are stealing money or charging things to themselves and making other people pay for that.
[45:28.490 --> 45:31.910]  And if that is alleged to be true, that's really what I consider to be serious.
[45:32.050 --> 45:39.650]  But all this other stuff, it's just, it's growing pains of the net and it's people learning things that I think they have a right to know.
[45:40.030 --> 45:44.910]  Unfortunately, though, your opinion on what should and should not be illegal doesn't change what is and is not illegal, right?
[45:45.230 --> 45:45.510]  That's true.
[45:45.510 --> 45:56.970]  Breaking into the computer systems in the first place, no matter what the intent or no matter what the, you know, whether it's a good cause or a bad cause, doesn't change the fact that that is a crime under, you know, under the law.
[45:57.290 --> 46:01.570]  Well, laws are formed first through opinions and hopefully opinions will change.
[46:01.750 --> 46:12.130]  I would like to talk to talk for a moment about the anonymous connection to this because this guy is being paraded around in the news as a high ranking member of the, of the group anonymous and a big, a big name in anonymous and this and that.
[46:12.510 --> 46:18.850]  But of course they all get it wrong as, as most of these stories do because anonymous is of course not a group and there are no leaders.
[46:19.050 --> 46:21.390]  It routes around damage, including missing Sabus.
[46:21.810 --> 46:27.090]  So, you know, of course there, of course, this is not going to affect anonymous one bit, I don't think, but...
[46:27.090 --> 46:31.130]  No, for every, someone quoted, for every head that gets chopped off, we sprout two.
[46:31.590 --> 46:31.810]  Yeah.
[46:32.010 --> 46:36.750]  And we've said things like that, you know, here, every time they attack us, we just get stronger.
[46:36.950 --> 46:37.470]  It's true.
[46:37.530 --> 46:46.710]  When you have massive groups like this, the thing, the thing I'm concerned about is that it will result in, in all kinds of retaliation and wars and things like that.
[46:46.810 --> 46:47.870]  Everything the media is predicting.
[46:48.090 --> 46:58.770]  And I just think that, that people are bigger than that, that they'll realize some of the things we're saying here, that situations happen sometimes where it's just, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.
[46:58.930 --> 47:01.990]  And, you know, you got to move on and continue with what you believe in.
[47:02.110 --> 47:09.730]  And there's a very good article in the winter edition of 2600 by our friend Aesthetics, which very well explains what anonymous is and isn't.
[47:09.810 --> 47:11.810]  And if you've got a hold of that, you should take a look.
[47:12.070 --> 47:12.470]  All right.
[47:12.530 --> 47:14.810]  Now, we'd like to open this up to phone calls.
[47:15.150 --> 47:18.530]  Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[47:18.530 --> 47:20.090]  Now, I mentioned there was a big caveat to that.
[47:20.510 --> 47:25.750]  The caveat is that for some reason that I cannot fathom, we have lost our hunt sequence.
[47:25.870 --> 47:30.950]  And what that means is that when you call a particular line and it's busy, it's supposed to jump over to the next line.
[47:31.210 --> 47:32.490]  Well, that's not going to happen tonight.
[47:32.730 --> 47:36.870]  Tonight, only one person is going to be able to get through at a time before someone else gets a busy signal.
[47:37.270 --> 47:41.010]  So what we're going to do is pick up the line and hopefully somebody will be there.
[47:41.110 --> 47:43.610]  And then we're going to hang it up and the phone should ring immediately again.
[47:44.030 --> 47:45.810]  And we'll just have to keep doing it like that.
[47:46.110 --> 47:48.950]  It's like one of those radio call-in contests.
[47:49.930 --> 47:51.470]  From the 1950s, yeah.
[47:52.070 --> 47:57.650]  But you'll see, it looks like we only have one call, but we probably have a whole lot of busy signals in there, which we can't see.
[47:58.310 --> 48:00.530]  So undoubtedly, this will be Rebels, so let's get it over with.
[48:00.610 --> 48:00.950]  Good evening.
[48:01.130 --> 48:02.170]  You're on Off the Hook.
[48:03.650 --> 48:04.370]  Speak up, please.
[48:04.510 --> 48:04.670]  Hello.
[48:04.810 --> 48:05.550]  Hey, how you doing?
[48:05.670 --> 48:06.030]  How you doing?
[48:06.070 --> 48:06.370]  What's up?
[48:07.910 --> 48:10.710]  Listen, I wanted to talk to the guys.
[48:10.710 --> 48:12.430]  I'm not... You're talking to them.
[48:12.530 --> 48:12.950]  Make it quick.
[48:13.110 --> 48:13.250]  Hello.
[48:13.550 --> 48:14.130]  I'm sorry, yeah.
[48:14.510 --> 48:17.910]  When we grew up in school, there was always a bad guy or a bad girl.
[48:18.150 --> 48:21.710]  And when we go on in life, there's a bad guy around.
[48:22.310 --> 48:24.750]  There are bad cops and there are good cops.
[48:25.910 --> 48:28.750]  I'm not here to stick up for the cops or be against them.
[48:28.870 --> 48:30.750]  I went through the system myself.
[48:31.150 --> 48:32.790]  Hey, Bernie, this is Brentwood calling.
[48:33.130 --> 48:33.490]  Yes.
[48:33.490 --> 48:37.590]  Anyway, and I taught myself law.
[48:37.830 --> 48:54.190]  If you're someone that doesn't know any law, you can ask someone to guide you through a little law or just read some law yourself to just become familiar with some of the things that go on or somehow the law is written or works or looks before you decide not to talk or to talk.
[48:54.330 --> 48:55.030]  Don't talk.
[48:55.230 --> 48:55.750]  Don't talk.
[48:55.950 --> 48:56.730]  Don't talk.
[48:57.010 --> 49:15.310]  But not only that, some cops and all different levels of cops will lie and put something on you that you didn't have or say you have something or you could slip and give the wrong date for your own birthday, which you were born with and you know.
[49:15.430 --> 49:20.410]  But if you say the 28th instead of the 29th and slip, they may just say, well, that's it.
[49:20.550 --> 49:25.830]  And like the guy said on your show tonight, he said, they can and will use against you.
[49:26.030 --> 49:26.970]  That's what it says.
[49:27.270 --> 49:28.710]  Can and will be used against you.
[49:28.770 --> 49:29.550]  Why can and will?
[49:29.670 --> 49:31.890]  What if you say, you know, I like butterscotch.
[49:32.190 --> 49:35.590]  Why are you already pre-stating that will be used against you?
[49:35.690 --> 49:35.890]  Hello?
[49:37.270 --> 49:37.690]  All right.
[49:37.790 --> 49:38.810]  Thanks so much for that call.
[49:38.970 --> 49:41.730]  And again, our phone number 212-209-2900.
[49:41.790 --> 49:41.990]  Red Hack.
[49:42.210 --> 49:45.230]  You know, it's interesting because there are, you know, people do get Mirandas, right?
[49:45.230 --> 49:46.310]  They get rid their Miranda rights.
[49:46.410 --> 49:51.010]  And this whole, this stems from the fact that people, I guess, in general don't know that they don't have to talk to the police.
[49:51.190 --> 49:54.490]  But I mean, if you listen to it, they're basically telling you that you don't have to talk.
[49:54.970 --> 49:57.730]  And that's, you know, there's a reason that they're telling you that.
[49:57.890 --> 49:59.230]  So, you know, just remember that.
[49:59.310 --> 50:01.810]  In all the times I've been arrested, I've never been read my Miranda rights.
[50:02.210 --> 50:05.630]  The police are very good at avoiding the Miranda warning.
[50:05.830 --> 50:09.030]  And they're also very good at making the Miranda warning seem unimportant.
[50:09.430 --> 50:11.810]  So they only have to read it in very specific circumstances.
[50:11.970 --> 50:14.670]  And they're good at making those circumstances not apply.
[50:14.850 --> 50:23.590]  The circumstances are if you're interrogated after you've been arrested, not if they just bust in your home with the plan of All right, let's take another phone call.
[50:23.870 --> 50:24.290]  Good evening.
[50:24.450 --> 50:25.210]  You're on Off the Hook.
[50:26.470 --> 50:27.190]  Yeah, how are you doing?
[50:27.270 --> 50:28.450]  Calling in from Long Island.
[50:28.850 --> 50:30.990]  Got a few interesting points I'd like to discuss.
[50:31.190 --> 50:31.850]  Okay, make them quickly.
[50:31.850 --> 50:32.230]  Go ahead.
[50:33.650 --> 50:34.750]  Oh, I didn't know I was on.
[50:34.850 --> 50:35.310]  All right, yeah.
[50:35.530 --> 50:40.450]  First of all, when you say $2,600, I've been in the house, the guy that makes the magazine.
[50:40.610 --> 50:41.550]  Are you that guy?
[50:43.050 --> 50:44.190]  You've been in the house.
[50:44.190 --> 50:45.190]  Well, you know what?
[50:46.050 --> 50:49.610]  I guess you didn't trip the alarm or something, but you must be good at what you do.
[50:49.610 --> 50:51.050]  So, I don't know.
[50:51.170 --> 50:51.610]  I'm not sure.
[50:51.790 --> 50:54.970]  There might be multiple people claiming to do that on the island.
[50:56.170 --> 51:02.090]  No, because my friend cat sits for the guy who writes the magazine, and I'm just saying I've been in that house a few times.
[51:02.170 --> 51:03.330]  We would hang out there.
[51:03.630 --> 51:06.130]  But anyways, the other thing I wanted to bring up is...
[51:06.130 --> 51:06.590]  There's no cats.
[51:06.730 --> 51:07.270]  There's only reptiles.
[51:07.370 --> 51:07.810]  Well, never mind.
[51:07.890 --> 51:09.870]  Let's not get into details as to what exactly is there.
[51:10.070 --> 51:11.590]  But do you have a question?
[51:12.190 --> 51:13.250]  Yes, I have a question.
[51:14.390 --> 51:19.370]  I, you know, I'm on Facebook all the time, and I speak my mind.
[51:19.610 --> 51:27.830]  And it seems like when I go to job interviews, something flags me, and I basically almost get escorted out of the building.
[51:28.210 --> 51:32.590]  Not only that, when I went to JCPenney, I took an online exam.
[51:32.590 --> 51:34.310]  You know, you put in all your information.
[51:34.650 --> 51:37.030]  You answer all the questions correctly.
[51:37.030 --> 51:38.530]  And then they're like, oh, we're sorry.
[51:38.530 --> 51:39.550]  You failed the exam.
[51:39.830 --> 51:41.210]  I've been flagged somehow.
[51:41.230 --> 51:46.650]  I know I have, because I'm always on there every other day saying, the president should be in jail for high treason.
[51:46.850 --> 51:50.390]  And is there... And I've called up these places.
[51:50.690 --> 51:53.110]  There's 33 of them that create a profile.
[51:53.410 --> 51:55.230]  And I can't get my own profile.
[51:55.350 --> 51:56.170]  So this is my question.
[51:56.430 --> 51:57.590]  Have I been profiled?
[51:57.590 --> 51:59.650]  And how do I find out what's out there about me?
[52:00.250 --> 52:01.750]  Who wants to tackle this one?
[52:01.890 --> 52:02.170]  Rob?
[52:02.410 --> 52:03.850]  Come to Hope and listen to Steve Rambam.
[52:03.930 --> 52:04.610]  Well, you could do that.
[52:04.850 --> 52:05.370]  Yeah, definitely.
[52:05.630 --> 52:11.210]  But also, when you apply for any job these days, one of the first things that they do is they do a web search on your name.
[52:11.210 --> 52:14.030]  So you do that web search on your name and see what they're seeing when they do so.
[52:14.510 --> 52:14.790]  All right.
[52:14.830 --> 52:15.450]  That's one thing.
[52:15.510 --> 52:17.670]  We're going to move on, because we have a very limited amount of time.
[52:17.790 --> 52:21.790]  But I hope you find the mystery person that you're looking for there.
[52:22.770 --> 52:26.010]  212-2309-2900 is our telephone number.
[52:26.650 --> 52:28.170]  We're on for another couple of minutes.
[52:28.210 --> 52:31.910]  And of course, you can also write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[52:31.990 --> 52:33.910]  Just one quick point for that last caller.
[52:34.170 --> 52:37.990]  You might want to check your privacy settings and make sure not everything you say is public.
[52:38.490 --> 52:42.350]  And if it is, and if you want it to be that way, then, well, I don't know what to tell you.
[52:42.470 --> 52:47.990]  But, you know, there are obviously companies out there that profile people based on their posts.
[52:48.370 --> 52:52.850]  If you try to make yourself private in general, they can't get to that information.
[52:53.110 --> 52:54.330]  But, I mean, there's no guarantee.
[52:55.110 --> 52:56.810]  Until they mess it up and it all becomes public.
[52:56.810 --> 53:00.550]  But if you want to be public about your views to the whole world, then I don't think we can help you.
[53:00.690 --> 53:00.850]  Yeah.
[53:01.510 --> 53:01.810]  Unfortunately.
[53:02.170 --> 53:02.350]  All right.
[53:02.390 --> 53:03.130]  Let's take another phone call.
[53:03.290 --> 53:03.670]  And good evening.
[53:03.790 --> 53:04.590]  You're on the air.
[53:05.850 --> 53:06.270]  Speak up.
[53:06.370 --> 53:06.410]  No, no.
[53:07.230 --> 53:07.670]  Go ahead.
[53:08.330 --> 53:09.130]  How's it going?
[53:09.370 --> 53:09.630]  Pretty good.
[53:09.670 --> 53:09.870]  How are you?
[53:10.870 --> 53:11.390]  Not bad.
[53:11.590 --> 53:12.470]  Just listening to you guys.
[53:12.650 --> 53:15.870]  And I think you have some pretty solid advice with the police.
[53:16.790 --> 53:18.270]  Definitely don't talk to them.
[53:18.370 --> 53:19.110]  They're not your friends.
[53:19.250 --> 53:23.110]  And they're absolutely not looking out for you in any way, shape, or form.
[53:23.550 --> 53:25.090]  I've been in New York all my life.
[53:25.270 --> 53:28.170]  My grandfather looked at me, 95 years old.
[53:28.610 --> 53:33.130]  I asked him in his entire life, is the police officer ever done anything to help you?
[53:33.270 --> 53:34.210]  His answer was no.
[53:34.790 --> 53:36.870]  And I asked my father the same question.
[53:36.870 --> 53:41.730]  I know so many people lived their entire lives and were never helped in any way by the police.
[53:42.070 --> 53:43.930]  So they're out there to screw you.
[53:44.230 --> 53:47.450]  And definitely do not cooperate with them.
[53:47.610 --> 53:51.110]  Because if you do, it's going to be something that you're going to regret.
[53:52.030 --> 53:57.730]  And whenever the police get in any trouble, the first thing they do is they get a lawyer immediately.
[53:58.190 --> 53:59.510]  And they don't cooperate.
[53:59.750 --> 54:01.730]  So you should just take notice from that.
[54:01.910 --> 54:05.130]  Well, not only do they get a lawyer immediately, they also are shielded.
[54:05.190 --> 54:06.490]  Their names don't get released.
[54:06.690 --> 54:12.170]  They have plenty of time to work together with the people they're accused of committing crimes with to get the story straight.
[54:12.170 --> 54:16.630]  And there's all kinds of things that you just cannot believe they actually are able to do.
[54:16.710 --> 54:23.230]  But, you know, I do sort of have to take exception to saying that all cops are bad or that there are no – they don't help ever.
[54:23.470 --> 54:25.190]  Because I've had good experiences with them as well.
[54:25.290 --> 54:26.250]  I've had plenty of bad experiences.
[54:26.250 --> 54:27.170]  Don't get me wrong on that.
[54:27.170 --> 54:30.310]  But there are good people, good cops too.
[54:30.590 --> 54:33.890]  You know, I don't think that police officers are necessarily bad people.
[54:33.910 --> 54:44.870]  But I think that, you know, in the case where you are a suspect, where you're suspected of something, where they're arresting you, the fact of the matter is that it's their job to find whoever committed whatever the crime is.
[54:44.970 --> 54:46.830]  And they're going to try to find out if you did it.
[54:46.910 --> 54:50.930]  And so, you know, unless – just – And they're not detectives.
[54:51.090 --> 54:54.350]  So they're going to go on the lousiest evidence to figure this out.
[54:54.350 --> 54:58.930]  The thing is, you know, in this country, you know, crimes are – you're convicted of a crime in a court.
[54:59.090 --> 55:14.250]  And up until that time, really, unless you have a lawyer who's helping you and representing you and helping you navigate that system, really it's never in your best interest to talk to law enforcement or – I mean, just keep quiet.
[55:14.490 --> 55:14.930]  Yeah.
[55:15.030 --> 55:17.690]  And, you know, if you're guilty of that crime, then that's one thing.
[55:17.810 --> 55:19.550]  And, you know, that will come out in the courts.
[55:19.550 --> 55:23.390]  But it's never in your best interest to talk about it.
[55:23.390 --> 55:26.150]  It's too bad we don't remember this as a rule.
[55:26.330 --> 55:28.890]  Unless, of course, you're reporting a crime and you want to talk to the court.
[55:28.970 --> 55:30.230]  And, of course, there's a difference.
[55:30.330 --> 55:34.610]  I'm saying when you're a suspect, when you're under arrest, that's – you know, then you're on the other side.
[55:34.710 --> 55:37.090]  You're not – that's when you need to be quiet.
[55:37.110 --> 55:39.930]  Oftentimes, especially with the lousy cops, you're a suspect no matter what.
[55:40.010 --> 55:42.330]  They just look at everybody with suspicion and hostility.
[55:42.770 --> 55:43.730]  But that's a whole other issue.
[55:43.830 --> 55:44.650]  Let's take one more phone call.
[55:44.730 --> 55:44.990]  Good evening.
[55:45.110 --> 55:45.950]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:46.890 --> 55:47.210]  Yes.
[55:47.270 --> 55:47.450]  Hi.
[55:47.470 --> 55:47.870]  How are you doing?
[55:47.950 --> 55:48.150]  Hi.
[55:48.210 --> 55:48.590]  What's on your mind?
[55:49.110 --> 55:49.410]  Good.
[55:49.410 --> 56:00.170]  But basically, what I want to say is I just want to say that I agree with the fact that if you ever get in a situation where you're arrested or you're under suspicion, definitely do not talk or at least exercise your right to speak to a lawyer.
[56:00.650 --> 56:11.590]  Because in the end, no matter what the cop says, whether he's allowed to lie or not, or whether you can prove that he lied, in the end, it's a judge that basically decides your fate based on the law.
[56:11.910 --> 56:16.130]  Now, the cop can probably be the nicest guy in the world and say, yeah, we'll help you out.
[56:16.130 --> 56:16.810]  We'll work with you.
[56:16.930 --> 56:17.610]  We'll do whatever you can.
[56:17.770 --> 56:19.070]  We'll let you see your family, whatever.
[56:19.370 --> 56:23.390]  But in the end, it's up to a judge to decide what the law allows you to do.
[56:23.570 --> 56:23.690]  Yeah.
[56:23.770 --> 56:25.850]  And to reiterate, you know, you're not...
[56:25.850 --> 56:27.930]  Most people are not experts in the law.
[56:28.110 --> 56:31.030]  You know, what you say, you may not know that you're committing a crime.
[56:31.570 --> 56:32.610]  And so just...
[56:32.610 --> 56:32.750]  Yeah.
[56:33.050 --> 56:35.350]  Again, just always keep quiet when you're under arrest.
[56:35.430 --> 56:35.590]  Okay.
[56:35.610 --> 56:36.410]  We're out of time.
[56:37.850 --> 56:38.570]  Fascinating material.
[56:38.570 --> 56:41.310]  And of course, we'll be focusing on this story in the weeks ahead.
[56:41.310 --> 56:45.890]  And we'd like to hear more from people, their opinions, any other news stories that they'd like to send us.
[56:46.170 --> 56:49.670]  Our address, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[56:49.810 --> 56:50.650]  We'll see you again next week.
[56:50.730 --> 56:50.890]  Good night.
[57:35.630 --> 57:38.990]  Up on the law and I won.
[57:39.190 --> 57:41.670]  Up on the law and I won.
[58:01.050 --> 58:06.230]  I blew George and Harvey's brains out with my six sons.
[58:06.810 --> 58:08.910]  Up on the law and I won.
[58:09.470 --> 58:11.670]  Up on the law and I won.
[58:17.760 --> 58:24.360]  I fought the law and I won.
[58:36.770 --> 58:39.600]  I fought the law and I won.
[58:39.750 --> 58:42.250]  I fought the law and I won.
[58:42.500 --> 58:44.940]  I fought the law and I won.
[58:45.180 --> 58:46.320]  I am the law.
[59:04.510 --> 59:05.170]  Woo!
[59:06.070 --> 59:06.290]  Yeah!
[59:06.910 --> 59:09.630]  Rock and roll at the same time.