[00:31.840 --> 00:34.540]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:34.720 --> 00:36.180]  The time is 7.01.
[00:36.510 --> 00:38.660]  That means it's time for Off the Hook.
[00:49.600 --> 00:51.540]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:52.060 --> 00:54.060]  Now I can't make a cough.
[00:54.920 --> 00:56.920]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:59.700 --> 01:02.320]  Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[01:02.980 --> 01:04.860]  I hope that's understood.
[01:05.040 --> 01:05.860]  Bum-diddly-bum!
[02:03.900 --> 02:04.980]  And good evening to it right.
[02:04.980 --> 02:06.120]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:06.200 --> 02:08.340]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:08.340 --> 02:10.640]  I'm joined tonight by Mike, Rob T.
[02:10.900 --> 02:17.860]  Firefly, .ret, Redhack, Jim, down in Philadelphia, Bernie S.
[02:19.620 --> 02:22.980]  And boy, do we have an exciting program planned for you tonight.
[02:23.160 --> 02:31.620]  You might have even heard about it on our news site, or other news sites, or through Twitter, or just word on the street.
[02:31.640 --> 02:32.500]  People are talking about it outside.
[02:32.500 --> 02:33.620]  I saw it before.
[02:34.520 --> 02:37.300]  Well, they asked me what I was going to do tonight, and I told them, so that counts.
[02:38.400 --> 02:43.060]  But we have a couple of news items to update people on.
[02:43.480 --> 02:44.440]  First off, look at this.
[02:44.560 --> 02:49.280]  I've got the brand new issue of 2600, which, this is the only copy in the city right now.
[02:49.400 --> 02:56.100]  So, yes, you can pass it around, but I expect it back, along with the plastic bag it came in after the show.
[02:56.280 --> 02:57.240]  No, I want that bag.
[02:57.360 --> 02:58.300]  You can't get those anymore.
[02:59.700 --> 03:05.560]  Yeah, and we have this news that just came in fairly recently.
[03:05.800 --> 03:07.520]  We talked about Facebook last week.
[03:07.640 --> 03:14.320]  We talked about how, apparently, employers are forcing people to give out their passwords, which I still can't believe.
[03:14.560 --> 03:17.340]  But I just thought this was a nice little addendum to that story.
[03:17.440 --> 03:25.680]  House Republicans have blocked a measure, they did this last night, that would have let the FCC prevent employers from forcing workers to reveal their Facebook passwords.
[03:26.400 --> 03:37.080]  Democrats offered the legislation as part of a bill to slap new restrictions on FCC rules after a string of reports about employers insisting on access to the social media network.
[03:39.180 --> 03:45.780]  And, basically, the measure failed 184 to 236 with no Republicans voting for it.
[03:45.780 --> 03:49.720]  So, I can't imagine the logic behind that.
[03:50.000 --> 03:54.460]  But, yeah, apparently, that's where it stands right now.
[03:54.880 --> 03:55.580]  Sad, isn't it?
[03:55.700 --> 03:57.080]  Well, I can explain the logic.
[03:57.300 --> 03:57.960]  Okay, explain the logic.
[03:57.960 --> 04:01.040]  The logic is the Democrats propose the bill, so the Republicans have to oppose it.
[04:01.460 --> 04:03.100]  It's like being in kindergarten, isn't it?
[04:03.520 --> 04:04.180]  It really is.
[04:05.480 --> 04:09.000]  Okay, and that's pretty much the only bit of that and the new issue.
[04:09.000 --> 04:17.260]  Oh, and, of course, the conference is continuing to unfold or come together, as it were, week by week.
[04:17.680 --> 04:21.760]  Have you joined the Twitter account, HopeNumber9, with nine being a digit?
[04:22.520 --> 04:25.020]  H-O-P-E-N-U-M-B-E-R 9.
[04:25.240 --> 04:26.860]  That's the account you should join.
[04:27.080 --> 04:32.240]  And you'll get, I believe, updates several times a day on various things that are happening.
[04:32.240 --> 04:41.900]  Everything from speakers that are being announced to new projects and openings of various activities that you can participate in.
[04:42.340 --> 04:43.840]  Bernie, why don't you pick one at random?
[04:45.820 --> 04:46.560]  Anything that's going on, though?
[04:46.560 --> 04:48.500]  I just wanted to put you on the spot there.
[04:48.660 --> 04:55.880]  And, yes, what kind of activity at HopeNumber9 this July do you think is particularly exciting?
[04:56.000 --> 05:01.200]  Despite about 100 or so stimulating speakers on all kinds of topics you want to learn about?
[05:01.200 --> 05:02.180]  Yeah, there's that.
[05:02.320 --> 05:02.560]  There's that.
[05:02.640 --> 05:03.560]  We all know about the speakers.
[05:03.560 --> 05:12.220]  We all know that we have the best lineup ever of people speaking about technology and hacking and activism and all kinds of interesting things like that.
[05:12.300 --> 05:13.660]  Here's one that we haven't even announced yet.
[05:13.700 --> 05:29.060]  I was talking to the Prometheus Radio Project people the other day, and they're going to be presenting a workshop on literally building your own low-power FM radio transmitter right there at the Hope Conference.
[05:29.060 --> 05:30.820]  You can build one for yourself and take it home.
[05:31.660 --> 05:33.720]  That is news to me, even.
[05:34.100 --> 05:34.740]  So, yeah.
[05:34.820 --> 05:35.000]  Yeah.
[05:35.360 --> 05:38.680]  So, yeah, every day we find out something new.
[05:38.840 --> 05:40.040]  So, there you go.
[05:40.740 --> 05:41.120]  Send your details.
[05:41.400 --> 05:45.320]  Yeah, go to www.hope.net for the latest information.
[05:45.320 --> 05:47.220]  You can join the mailing list there.
[05:47.360 --> 05:55.340]  The mailing list will send you to your email account all kinds of announcements and the latest news less frequently than the Twitter account.
[05:55.340 --> 05:58.120]  So, follow the Twitter account, HopeNumber9, with the nine being a digit.
[05:59.660 --> 06:04.700]  And I think that's about it as far as things you can follow other than listening to us each week.
[06:04.780 --> 06:04.960]  Oh, yeah.
[06:05.020 --> 06:11.140]  Of course, if you have an idea for a topic to speak on, we're wide open to all kinds of different ideas.
[06:11.280 --> 06:15.960]  We've had everyone from high school kids to college professors to international spa.
[06:15.960 --> 06:19.420]  I guess I shouldn't reveal secret information about people.
[06:19.520 --> 06:23.280]  But, yeah, there are all kinds of interesting people submitting talk ideas and being accepted, too.
[06:24.240 --> 06:28.240]  Hope is a tremendous coming together of minds of all sorts.
[06:28.240 --> 06:32.300]  So, if you think you're not qualified, you probably are.
[06:32.720 --> 06:40.340]  And if you assume that you're overqualified, you're probably not or something like that.
[06:40.540 --> 06:40.680]  Yeah.
[06:41.300 --> 06:46.680]  Speakers at Hope.net is the address to write to as far as talk presentations and ideas.
[06:47.260 --> 06:53.520]  It's still open for at least the indefinite future until the conference begins, July 13th through 15th.
[06:54.160 --> 06:56.520]  Okay, that's it as far as announcements go.
[06:58.240 --> 07:03.960]  We have this story that we talked about in weeks past, maybe even beyond that.
[07:04.040 --> 07:09.000]  It certainly has been making the rounds in various news organizations.
[07:09.000 --> 07:09.740]  Not enough.
[07:09.880 --> 07:11.140]  Certainly not enough in this country.
[07:11.280 --> 07:16.160]  What I'd like to do, I'd like to read something briefly.
[07:16.300 --> 07:17.080]  Then we're going to make a phone call.
[07:18.180 --> 07:20.940]  This is a story or part of a story from last year.
[07:21.220 --> 07:23.580]  And it's dated June 17th.
[07:23.720 --> 07:26.400]  And, of course, obviously we have updates since then.
[07:26.400 --> 07:29.020]  But this is where it stood back then.
[07:29.080 --> 07:31.580]  This is how incredible it all seemed.
[07:32.960 --> 07:40.960]  The question in this story, which comes from the website TechDirt, the question is, why is the Justice Department pretending U.S.
[07:41.080 --> 07:43.580]  copyright laws apply in the U.K.?
[07:43.580 --> 07:46.160]  We already mentioned the attempt by the U.S.
[07:46.320 --> 07:48.560]  to extradite Richard O'Dwyer, who was a U.K.
[07:48.760 --> 07:56.260]  student, who ran tvshack.net and tvshack.cc, both of which were seized by I.C.E.
[07:56.260 --> 07:58.460]  Who would like to say what I.C.E.
[07:58.600 --> 07:59.300]  stands for, Mike?
[07:59.520 --> 08:01.340]  Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
[08:01.740 --> 08:03.960]  And we also ask you, is it proper to say I.C.E.
[08:03.960 --> 08:05.020]  or should I be saying ICE?
[08:05.240 --> 08:05.500]  ICE.
[08:05.920 --> 08:06.740]  I would say ICE.
[08:06.740 --> 08:07.820]  I don't want to say ICE.
[08:07.980 --> 08:09.100]  That makes them sound cool.
[08:09.520 --> 08:10.540]  They don't deserve that.
[08:11.120 --> 08:11.820]  I'm sorry.
[08:12.080 --> 08:13.460]  Call them Immigration Enforcement.
[08:14.060 --> 08:15.760]  I don't have that much time, all right?
[08:16.140 --> 08:17.560]  You can call them La Migra.
[08:17.920 --> 08:18.620]  You know what?
[08:18.620 --> 08:19.740]  I'm calling them I.C.E.
[08:19.740 --> 08:21.160]  because that's what I feel like calling them.
[08:21.280 --> 08:23.580]  And write a letter if you don't like it.
[08:24.280 --> 08:26.640]  Unfortunately, most of the press reports out of the U.K.
[08:27.160 --> 08:27.880]  So I can say U.K.
[08:27.980 --> 08:28.860]  So why can I say ICE?
[08:30.180 --> 08:30.900]  Lack details.
[08:36.740 --> 08:37.480]  Mike Mesnick.
[08:38.200 --> 08:40.740]  Or if there was just fear on the part of the O'Dwyer family.
[08:40.920 --> 08:43.960]  Now, after some digging, it appears that this is absolutely the case.
[08:44.160 --> 08:47.280]  The Justice Department out of the Southern District of New York, that's us.
[08:47.380 --> 08:48.120]  That's right here.
[08:49.300 --> 08:55.820]  The same DOJ offices that have been involved in the ICE seizures and ICE via the U.S.
[08:55.900 --> 08:59.080]  Embassy in London made the request to extradite O'Dwyer.
[09:02.000 --> 09:10.300]  Basically, what it comes down to is that Dwyer has not violated any U.K.
[09:12.720 --> 09:12.780]  law.
[09:13.120 --> 09:14.900]  Pretty much everyone agrees on this.
[09:15.240 --> 09:18.380]  In the initial post, we discussed a few similar cases in the U.K.
[09:18.460 --> 09:21.320]  that showed such site administrators were not liable.
[09:21.840 --> 09:22.500]  U.K.
[09:22.660 --> 09:25.780]  legal experts have been saying that what O'Dwyer did is legal in the U.K.
[09:25.780 --> 09:33.680]  as it matches up almost entirely with previous cases where people doing nearly identical things were found to have not violated the law.
[09:33.940 --> 09:38.540]  So, this is a massive jurisdictional and sovereign disaster waiting to happen.
[09:38.840 --> 09:40.400]  Basically, the U.S.
[09:40.440 --> 09:44.540]  appears to be claiming that if you do anything on the internet, you're subject to U.S.
[09:44.600 --> 09:45.060]  laws.
[09:46.060 --> 09:47.020]  That's crazy.
[09:47.580 --> 09:49.100]  Yes, and that was in italics.
[09:49.180 --> 09:52.440]  That's crazy and is going to come back to haunt U.S.
[09:52.520 --> 09:53.100]  law enforcement.
[09:53.100 --> 09:58.060]  Do they not realize that this is the same thing that other countries have tried to do to U.S.
[09:58.540 --> 09:58.540]  citizens?
[09:59.040 --> 09:59.740]  The U.S.
[09:59.940 --> 10:03.400]  even passed a law, the Speech Act, to make it clear that U.S.
[10:03.740 --> 10:09.120]  citizens were not subject to the liability of other national laws just because such things happen on the internet.
[10:09.480 --> 10:14.420]  To then turn around and pretend the opposite is true for everyone else is just massive hypocrisy.
[10:15.180 --> 10:18.480]  I'm kind of surprised this guy is at shock by it.
[10:19.100 --> 10:23.300]  But separate from all that, it's highly questionable if O'Dwyer is even violating U.S.
[10:23.420 --> 10:27.680]  criminal copyright law because there is no such thing as contributory criminal infringement.
[10:28.080 --> 10:31.560]  There is for civil copyright law, but it's nowhere to be found in criminal law.
[10:31.640 --> 10:34.820]  And that's a legal question we'll be getting into in just a little bit.
[10:36.420 --> 10:38.240]  So effectively, it appears that the U.S.
[10:38.320 --> 10:50.280]  government wants to see someone and drag them across the ocean to face federal charges for doing something that was perfectly legal in his home country and probably legal in the U.S.
[10:50.840 --> 10:53.000]  Do they not see how that might create some issues?
[10:54.160 --> 10:54.460]  All right.
[10:54.940 --> 10:59.380]  Well, what we are doing right now is we are connecting to England.
[11:00.200 --> 11:01.800]  Do you want to hear a dial tone?
[11:02.340 --> 11:04.240]  No, I was hoping it would be dialing by now.
[11:04.360 --> 11:05.520]  Okay, go ahead and dial the number.
[11:05.700 --> 11:06.780]  We have the number there.
[11:07.640 --> 11:16.480]  And we are connecting to someone very familiar with the case, Richard O'Dwyer's mother in the U.K.
[11:17.040 --> 11:20.480]  And let's hope that this goes through in the first attempt.
[11:22.780 --> 11:23.660]  Okay, there's a U.K.
[11:23.800 --> 11:24.400]  ring right there.
[11:28.360 --> 11:28.720]  Hello?
[11:29.100 --> 11:30.880]  Hi, is this Julia O'Dwyer?
[11:31.160 --> 11:31.960]  Yes, it is.
[11:32.140 --> 11:34.200]  Hello, it's Emanuel from Off the Hook.
[11:34.200 --> 11:36.360]  You're live on the radio in New York City right now.
[11:36.580 --> 11:37.340]  Okay, right.
[11:37.460 --> 11:37.740]  Hi.
[11:38.040 --> 11:38.440]  How are you doing?
[11:38.520 --> 11:39.360]  What part of the U.K.
[11:39.360 --> 11:39.780]  are you in?
[11:40.560 --> 11:42.920]  Um, do you know the U.K.?
[11:42.920 --> 11:43.820]  A little bit, a little bit.
[11:44.160 --> 11:48.700]  Up, um, northwards towards Sheffield.
[11:49.200 --> 11:49.600]  Sheffield?
[11:49.720 --> 11:50.440]  No kidding, really?
[11:50.900 --> 11:53.180]  Just a little way outside of Sheffield.
[11:53.240 --> 11:53.800]  That's extraordinary.
[11:53.920 --> 11:56.740]  I just saw a film last night that was all about Sheffield.
[11:56.800 --> 11:57.960]  Have you ever heard of Threads?
[11:59.000 --> 11:59.400]  No.
[11:59.600 --> 12:01.920]  It's about, uh, it's about a nuclear disaster.
[12:02.720 --> 12:13.800]  It's, it's, uh, it's not the cheerful, most cheerful film ever, but I highly recommend it because it, it, it shows how, um, how we can get dragged into real hell by our leaders if we're not careful.
[12:13.920 --> 12:16.840]  And I guess that's sort of a, a prelude to what we're talking about here tonight.
[12:16.960 --> 12:18.400]  I like the hell that we're in now.
[12:18.520 --> 12:19.800]  Exactly, exactly, yeah.
[12:20.100 --> 12:22.420]  Uh, might not be a nuclear hell, but it is a hell all the same.
[12:22.640 --> 12:29.280]  Now, we, we just, uh, looked at a story from last year, uh, that seemed to be approaching this whole thing with a bit of shock.
[12:29.520 --> 12:32.360]  How could such a thing like this actually happen?
[12:32.360 --> 12:36.420]  And it's, it's, it's not something that, uh, seems at all likely.
[12:37.060 --> 12:50.860]  However, uh, the postscript to what I just read now is that on, uh, January 13th of this year, uh, a UK magistrate ruled that, um, that your son can be extradited to the United States for running a website.
[12:50.860 --> 12:52.560]  And, and we should say what the website did.
[12:52.680 --> 13:00.400]  The website allegedly was posting links to pirated TV shows and films, not, not hosting the content, posting links.
[13:00.760 --> 13:06.560]  This is something that, uh, as far as I understand, is not even a crime in the United Kingdom.
[13:06.840 --> 13:08.140]  Is, is, so far, is that correct?
[13:08.340 --> 13:08.800]  No, no, it's not.
[13:09.040 --> 13:12.760]  Um, that's what we are trying to argue, that fact.
[13:13.060 --> 13:16.400]  But, um, we'll have to do that at an appeal.
[13:17.340 --> 13:17.840]  Uh-huh.
[13:17.920 --> 13:24.260]  Um, the court that we were at in January was, um, just the magistrate's court.
[13:24.340 --> 13:26.940]  In fact, just only really an extradition court.
[13:27.580 --> 13:33.420]  So it wasn't, you know, those judges, all they do is extradition cases.
[13:34.220 --> 13:38.840]  So it's very difficult for them to think outside of that box.
[13:39.660 --> 13:39.980]  Uh-huh.
[13:40.560 --> 13:52.340]  Uh, it, it seems like it almost is, um, uh, a case where they just agree to, uh, extradite whoever is, um, is, is being requested to be extradited by whatever, whatever government.
[13:52.340 --> 13:55.580]  Uh, they do, they do that with, uh, the U.S.
[13:55.960 --> 13:56.000]  government.
[13:56.820 --> 14:03.680]  Um, this is, uh, standard procedure for all American extradition requests to the U.K.
[14:04.980 --> 14:05.440]  Mm-hmm.
[14:05.840 --> 14:14.540]  Now, can you tell us something about, um, uh, how this all unfolded, uh, back in, um, um, I guess last year when it all started?
[14:14.720 --> 14:16.680]  Uh, what was your first inkling that this was going on?
[14:17.140 --> 14:30.900]  Well, um, first of all, about six months before, well, uh, in the November, it was November 2010, police came to question Richard about his website and he told them all about it.
[14:31.320 --> 14:34.340]  Um, they took him to the police station to be questioned.
[14:34.340 --> 14:38.180]  He had no lawyer with him because he never had any dealings really with the police.
[14:38.340 --> 14:41.440]  So he didn't even know that he would need to do that.
[14:41.980 --> 14:49.040]  And, um, they took away his computer and then they told him he was on bail for six months.
[14:49.600 --> 14:52.500]  We never heard a word from them in all of that time.
[14:52.720 --> 14:58.820]  So I went with him to the bail in May, May, uh, the end of May, 2011.
[14:59.240 --> 15:06.260]  We went to London to the bail and they said, um, the criminal investigation in the U.K.
[15:06.420 --> 15:07.200]  had been dropped.
[15:07.200 --> 15:11.080]  So we kind of had a brief sigh of relief.
[15:11.420 --> 15:18.140]  And then in the next sentence, they said, but we've got an extradition warrant for America now instead.
[15:19.720 --> 15:20.320]  Wow.
[15:20.820 --> 15:21.480]  Well, yeah.
[15:21.680 --> 15:29.340]  So it was like handcuffs on and straight down to the nearest court to start to be processed for extradition.
[15:30.620 --> 15:33.720]  So it sounds like they, they basically traded charges.
[15:33.720 --> 15:36.280]  We'll drop the charge, but now we're going to hand it over to the United States.
[15:36.400 --> 15:37.140]  Is that how it played out?
[15:37.320 --> 15:44.160]  Well, they have to do that, you see, because, um, you can't be charged for the same offense twice.
[15:44.220 --> 15:45.540]  You know, he couldn't be charged.
[15:45.700 --> 15:47.940]  He hadn't, he has never been charged with anything yet.
[15:48.440 --> 15:53.420]  So they couldn't, if they charged him in this country, they would have to prosecute the case in this country.
[15:54.140 --> 15:59.580]  So they, I think it was all intentional that it was going to be an extradition.
[16:01.820 --> 16:02.480]  Are you there?
[16:03.000 --> 16:03.480]  Uh, yeah.
[16:03.600 --> 16:03.760]  Sorry.
[16:03.880 --> 16:04.800]  We just, uh, yeah.
[16:04.800 --> 16:05.020]  Okay.
[16:05.080 --> 16:08.080]  Didn't tell us that, you know.
[16:08.600 --> 16:15.900]  Now, um, what was the reaction when, uh, when you first heard about this, this, uh, push for extradition?
[16:17.360 --> 16:27.740]  Well, you know, I was there with Richard, so we were just totally shocked, but we didn't really know what all that meant because they never gave us any information.
[16:28.660 --> 16:44.640]  So, you know, we were quickly taken, well, Richard was quickly taken to the court and locked up there and had to wait several hours to go into the court where loads of people were being processed for extraditions to Europe.
[16:44.820 --> 16:50.320]  So I was watching all these people being rubber stamped through for extradition.
[16:50.420 --> 16:54.440]  And I just thought, God, this is going to be happening to Richard in a few minutes.
[16:55.040 --> 17:01.340]  Um, we had no assistance, you know, because we didn't expect that to be happening to us on that day.
[17:02.020 --> 17:17.000]  And so when it, when we got out of there, you know, I had to go home and start looking on the internet and trying to find, find out all about the law and places where I could get help, you know, from other people who might know about this.
[17:17.200 --> 17:19.580]  And so that's really what I've been doing ever since.
[17:19.580 --> 17:31.700]  So you're saying on that, on that day, when you went into court, you had no idea that extradition was even on the table and you were actually looking at the possibility of it being approved on that very same day?
[17:31.900 --> 17:38.540]  Well, in the, when we went to the court, we knew we were going there about the extradition because they told us that at the police station.
[17:38.560 --> 17:51.680]  But we didn't know because I was watching all these other people going to Europe to be extradited really quickly, you know, um, I thought, God, when it's Richard's turn, that's what they're going to do to him.
[17:52.000 --> 17:56.940]  Now, it's interesting too, because Richard has not been to the United States since he was five years old.
[17:57.360 --> 18:08.820]  And, uh, apparently, uh, because this is the logic that, uh, is being used here because, uh, the, um, the website that, uh, he was running ended in .net.
[18:09.000 --> 18:15.800]  The United States is alleging that, uh, that means they have jurisdiction, any site that ends in .com or .net.
[18:15.800 --> 18:18.440]  And they actually, they actually phrase this in an interesting way.
[18:18.520 --> 18:23.620]  They seem to think that, um, uh, that means that it goes through the United States at some point.
[18:23.620 --> 18:27.340]  But obviously, if you have any knowledge of the internet, uh, that's not the way it works.
[18:27.500 --> 18:31.000]  Uh, you do not have to actually route it through the United States in any way.
[18:31.240 --> 18:35.440]  Uh, we're bringing in, uh, Mitch Staltz from, uh, the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[18:35.580 --> 18:36.760]  Mitch, are you with us in California?
[18:36.940 --> 18:37.300]  I'm here.
[18:37.360 --> 18:37.600]  Hi there.
[18:37.780 --> 18:38.260]  How are you doing?
[18:38.380 --> 18:39.600]  Are you familiar with this case?
[18:40.220 --> 18:40.700]  I am.
[18:41.000 --> 18:48.120]  Well, it's, uh, it's, it's mind blowing because, uh, uh, we're hearing all of this, um, um, developing week by week.
[18:48.420 --> 19:00.480]  And it just seems extraordinary that somebody who, uh, has done something in the United Kingdom where it's not even a crime can actually in reality be extradited to this country to face charges.
[19:00.620 --> 19:13.880]  I mean, if we, if we applied it to United States citizens and we were being exported to, uh, oh, I don't know, countries like Iran or Malaysia for various crimes that we might've committed online in their country, but not here, uh, it just seems bizarre,
[19:13.880 --> 19:16.320]  but apparently it doesn't work the other way.
[19:17.540 --> 19:18.440]  It is bizarre.
[19:18.660 --> 19:23.760]  Uh, and I'd add on top of that, it's not entirely clear that this is a crime in the United States or should be.
[19:24.020 --> 19:26.340]  Could you tell us something about how that could be?
[19:26.460 --> 19:31.180]  I understand civilly it, it, it might be considered a crime, but not criminally.
[19:31.280 --> 19:31.540]  Is that right?
[19:32.620 --> 19:34.840]  It's actually not even clear that it's a civil offense.
[19:35.300 --> 19:44.100]  Um, um, Richard's website, as I understand it, only provided links to files that may have been infringing.
[19:44.200 --> 19:46.600]  It didn't host any files itself.
[19:47.360 --> 19:51.780]  And in the civil area, the cases go both ways on that.
[19:51.880 --> 19:57.700]  But for the most part, the consensus is that, that just linking to infringing content is not a copyright violation.
[19:57.860 --> 20:00.640]  And that's doubly true in the criminal world.
[20:00.780 --> 20:05.880]  It's, it's, it's never been, there's never been a criminal conviction based on linking as far as I know.
[20:05.880 --> 20:15.840]  Uh, the closest I can think is our own case with the MPAA back in 2000, where we were, uh, basically ordered not to link to the ECSS code anymore.
[20:15.840 --> 20:23.000]  And what we wound up doing to, um, to counter that is simply taking out the link part of it and just listing the URLs instead.
[20:23.320 --> 20:28.460]  I'm not sure if that tactic would have worked for, for Richard's case probably would have angered, uh, the authorities even more.
[20:28.980 --> 20:32.360]  Um, but, uh, it, it, it certainly doesn't bode well.
[20:32.460 --> 20:41.680]  Is this the first case that you're aware of, of something so egregious where, where someone doing something so, uh, I, I want to say harmless because it is harmless.
[20:41.680 --> 20:47.300]  Simply it's, it's not doing anything that Google doesn't already do as far as pointing to where certain things are.
[20:47.580 --> 20:52.640]  Uh, are you aware of any of the case where, where someone is actually in threat of being extradited for this?
[20:53.640 --> 20:55.160]  Uh, no, I'm not.
[20:55.260 --> 21:03.560]  I mean, I mean, there's, there may be some parallels to, to, to mega upload, uh, in which, you know, some, some, uh, uh, residents of New Zealand were arrested in their houses.
[21:03.700 --> 21:06.520]  And, uh, I think, uh, the U.S.
[21:06.540 --> 21:16.200]  is seeking extradition, but, uh, of that was, you know, again, a site that actually stored files, uh, rather than just pointing people to files that were stored elsewhere.
[21:16.440 --> 21:20.220]  Uh, Julia, your son doesn't have mansions or lots of cars or things like that?
[21:20.220 --> 21:20.220]  Yeah.
[21:20.940 --> 21:33.960]  Well, well, no, I mean, the, when the police came, cause they came here to, to the home as well as to Richard's flat, you know, his student accommodation, and they were looking for, you know, trappings of wealth.
[21:35.440 --> 21:44.580]  Um, you know, it was funny on that day because we had no staircase because the joiner was putting a new stairs in for us, but you know, there was no trappings of wealth.
[21:44.780 --> 21:51.560]  And when they searched Richard's, um, belongings, they said, well, he hasn't got anything, has he?
[21:51.740 --> 21:56.040]  You know, he's got his TV and he's got his computer and a camera and his iPhone.
[21:56.280 --> 21:56.840]  That's it.
[21:56.980 --> 21:58.060]  He doesn't have anything.
[21:58.480 --> 22:01.120]  He's got, you know, no trappings of wealth.
[22:01.160 --> 22:06.500]  So he's not a Mr. Big, the Mr. Big that they thought they were coming looking for.
[22:06.940 --> 22:11.000]  Did the police seem to realize the absurdity of the situation at any point?
[22:12.020 --> 22:18.480]  Um, I'm, I'm not too sure because they were just doing this work for the Americans.
[22:19.500 --> 22:30.200]  You know, they were obviously doing the, uh, primary, um, bit of, you know, information gathering for the U S in preparation for this extradition.
[22:31.400 --> 22:44.380]  They weren't, um, uh, they weren't, you know, I mean, they, they were a bit sloppy anyway, because they came here and they took away a couple of, um, compute our, you know, the home computers.
[22:44.380 --> 22:57.180]  And after they'd gone, we, you know, there were, we, we, we found another laptop because they're all over the, well, they're not all over the place, but we've got a couple of broken ones as well, you know, so they were just there and they've not even looked,
[22:57.380 --> 22:58.560]  searched the place properly.
[22:58.700 --> 23:06.780]  They were supposed to be searching the place, you know, for, for, um, they thought they were going to find a load of knockoff DVDs or something.
[23:06.940 --> 23:10.680]  There was nothing like that because that's not what Richard's website was about.
[23:11.020 --> 23:13.820]  They expected to find that a pirating studio or something like that.
[23:13.920 --> 23:13.920]  Yeah.
[23:13.960 --> 23:21.560]  They found a great big, we have a great big basket full of CDs and DVDs and they, they went to this box thinking, oh, great.
[23:21.800 --> 23:29.340]  But they were all legitimately proper, the proper ones bought, you know, there weren't any, um, copies or anything like that.
[23:29.420 --> 23:30.500]  They must have been so disappointed.
[23:30.980 --> 23:33.500]  Yeah, they were disappointed, I think.
[23:33.960 --> 23:34.440]  Yeah.
[23:34.880 --> 23:35.280]  Wow.
[23:35.840 --> 23:37.640]  Um, that's, that's unbelievable.
[23:38.000 --> 23:43.740]  Uh, now, when this happened, when this first occurred, and when, when was that raid last year?
[23:43.920 --> 23:50.160]  That was, um, on the 29th of, I'll tell you when it was, it was 29th of November, 2010.
[23:50.540 --> 23:51.020]  Oh, wow.
[23:51.120 --> 23:55.920]  And it was the same day that they did all the others in the operation in our sites thing.
[23:56.100 --> 23:56.380]  Mm-hmm.
[23:56.700 --> 23:57.520]  It was that day.
[23:57.700 --> 24:01.220]  So, now, when this happened, what was the media coverage like in the UK?
[24:01.420 --> 24:03.440]  Did they get the story or did they just blindly follow?
[24:03.460 --> 24:04.180]  Well, no, they didn't.
[24:04.340 --> 24:10.380]  So, there was nothing on that day because, um, um, uh, you know, Richard only went to the police station.
[24:10.620 --> 24:19.400]  So, it wasn't until, um, we went to the second extradition court that there was any media coverage, really.
[24:20.140 --> 24:33.140]  Because the first time we went, we didn't even know we were going and there was no journalists there because, you know, it's not that kind of a court, really, unless there's a prominent case, which they didn't know about Richard then.
[24:33.360 --> 24:34.580]  So, there was no publicity.
[24:34.900 --> 24:43.780]  But then the next time we went, the press knew about it because somebody had seen the list, the name listed, you know, and decided to turn up.
[24:43.960 --> 24:48.520]  So, after that, every time we've been, since, there's been a lot of media coverage.
[24:48.860 --> 24:51.400]  And what has that coverage been like for the most part?
[24:51.920 --> 24:52.440]  Good.
[24:52.660 --> 24:54.700]  Very, uh, supportive.
[24:55.320 --> 24:57.240]  Everybody's, uh, horrified.
[24:57.640 --> 25:05.560]  You know, the press coverage, TV and the newspapers has all been, you know, more or less saying, this is ridiculous.
[25:05.640 --> 25:06.880]  Why is this happening?
[25:07.220 --> 25:14.040]  So, there hasn't been, uh, the kind of tabloid journalism that, that, is making Richard out to be evil or... No, no, no.
[25:14.300 --> 25:14.300]  Good.
[25:14.300 --> 25:14.800]  Not at all.
[25:14.920 --> 25:34.640]  In fact, you know, I, um, I'm on Twitter a lot of the time and I've got so many people sending me messages of support, like copyright lawyers, tech people, uh, even film make, you know, people out of the movie industries contacting me, sending me information,
[25:35.020 --> 25:36.500]  giving me messages of support.
[25:37.100 --> 25:45.920]  I haven't had any bad, um, you know, bad, we haven't had any bad press, we haven't had any bad messages or anything.
[25:46.120 --> 25:49.820]  All, it's all been really positive and good.
[25:50.020 --> 25:51.280]  And, and how is Richard holding up?
[25:51.900 --> 26:07.640]  Well, he tries to, not ignore it, but he's just trying to get on with his life really, because he's, you know, he's at university, he's on a work placement this year, he's got his mates, so he just tries to ignore it as much as he can, except when there's,
[26:07.640 --> 26:11.180]  um, a court appearance or something like that going on.
[26:11.380 --> 26:17.260]  I'm sure it's on his mind all the time, but he doesn't want to talk about it much, you know, and he doesn't want it in his face.
[26:17.440 --> 26:24.760]  Well, it's amazing how quickly he can be in the, in the limelight just by starting a simple website that simply gives addresses of other websites.
[26:25.120 --> 26:40.760]  Mitch, let me, let me ask you, um, this, uh, contention that the United States controls anything that, uh, happens on a website that ends in .com or .net and presumably other probable domains as well, uh, do you think that has any legal standing whatsoever?
[26:43.140 --> 27:03.220]  I think there, there may be legal standing for the idea that the, the, the government can, or at least this is what they claim based on a law that was passed in 2010, um, that, that, that for websites that end in .com or .net, the, the registry, the, the official organization in charge of handing out those names is in the United States.
[27:03.780 --> 27:19.140]  And based on that, they could presumably go to that registry and say, we want you to shut down this domain name, but go, go, and that's not, that's not a hundred percent airtight, but that is the basis of, of the, the, the, the seizures, the operation in our site seizures that,
[27:19.140 --> 27:21.580]  that they, that they, that they are claiming to rely on.
[27:21.740 --> 27:31.620]  Well, that's just, that's just shutting down, that's just shutting down a website, taking away the domain name, but actually prosecuting somebody because of something that happened on that domain because it ends in .net or .com.
[27:31.840 --> 27:33.400]  That's, that seems like a big stretch.
[27:34.060 --> 27:35.320]  That does seem like a big stretch.
[27:35.520 --> 27:40.440]  That is a pretty bold assertion of the U.S.
[27:40.920 --> 27:43.580]  jurisdiction, potentially anywhere in the world.
[27:44.340 --> 27:49.880]  If the extradition were to proceed and it would be tried in the U.S., what kind of trial would be held?
[27:51.900 --> 27:57.520]  It would be a standard of criminal copyright infringement trial.
[27:57.520 --> 28:02.900]  Now, they've charged copyright infringement and conspiracy.
[28:02.900 --> 28:08.540]  Now, I think the conspiracy charge is an attempt to get around this linking problem.
[28:09.440 --> 28:18.100]  Like I said, there's been no case that I know of saying that simply linking to infringing material is itself an illegal act.
[28:18.100 --> 28:22.940]  But I think what they might try to do is say that linking...
[28:22.940 --> 28:30.300]  By linking, he was somehow forming a conspiracy with the people who were actually hosting the movie files.
[28:32.360 --> 28:34.540]  Probably anonymous and anywhere in the world.
[28:35.220 --> 28:42.980]  And that, too, is a theory that I don't think has ever been tried or in a serious way.
[28:43.020 --> 28:44.440]  None that I've heard of.
[28:44.440 --> 28:46.240]  But I think that's...
[28:46.240 --> 28:47.980]  You know, I think they're trying to make a new law.
[28:48.100 --> 28:52.560]  And if that becomes the law, you know, the implications are pretty scary.
[28:52.940 --> 29:07.760]  Well, now, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that since the registries are located in the U.S., that whenever someone... whenever a query is being sent out, that at some point, queries do... for the URL still at some point are traveling back to the U.S.
[29:07.940 --> 29:08.380]  occasionally.
[29:08.880 --> 29:13.300]  There's a request for the IP address of the domain in question.
[29:13.300 --> 29:19.200]  But even that doesn't necessarily have to... the server answering that query doesn't necessarily have to be in the U.S.
[29:19.200 --> 29:20.400]  It could be located elsewhere.
[29:20.560 --> 29:24.060]  Well, now, I believe that, in general, that there are many machines.
[29:24.240 --> 29:30.820]  But I'm wondering if this also somehow plays into them trying to say that the crime somehow is connected to U.S.
[29:30.940 --> 29:31.180]  soil.
[29:31.360 --> 29:31.660]  I don't know.
[29:31.700 --> 29:32.680]  This seems very shaky.
[29:32.780 --> 29:33.460]  Right, but the content...
[29:33.460 --> 29:34.560]  I think that's what they're trying to do.
[29:34.560 --> 29:44.060]  But the implications of that, again, are pretty astounding because that will cover almost any activity on the Internet anywhere in the world.
[29:44.420 --> 29:45.240]  And, yeah.
[29:45.420 --> 30:00.400]  Now, if I were to get on the Internet, on Twitter or, you know, whatever, and say that if you were right now at this moment to go to YouTube.com, type in the name of your favorite television show, and some of the results back would be the copyrighted material uploaded by people who don't own it.
[30:00.400 --> 30:09.040]  But, you know, if I were to say that on the Internet or even on the radio, would that be comparable to what Richard's website was doing and on a practical level?
[30:10.840 --> 30:13.480]  Well, on a practical level, I think the only difference would be volume.
[30:13.920 --> 30:16.500]  And also YouTube would be liable, too, under that.
[30:16.740 --> 30:23.980]  Well, they have the safe harbor laws, which basically, as long as they take down the content within...
[30:23.980 --> 30:32.040]  When they receive a request from the copyright owner, then they're not liable for it, which is good because otherwise there'd be a lot of things on the Internet that wouldn't exist.
[30:32.800 --> 30:43.560]  Well, obviously, the danger in this is that people can be flown all over the world now every time they violate some kind of rule in different countries.
[30:44.320 --> 30:46.080]  Mitch, let me ask you, where does it end?
[30:46.080 --> 30:51.060]  And once they open up this door, how do they prevent U.S.
[30:51.440 --> 30:54.920]  citizens from being shipped all over the place and U.K.
[30:55.340 --> 30:59.380]  citizens and European citizens and people from all over the world being sent to foreign prisons?
[31:00.280 --> 31:01.740]  This certainly sends that message.
[31:01.980 --> 31:07.000]  Now, I don't think it directly opens that door because this is based on a particular treaty between the U.S.
[31:07.000 --> 31:07.560]  and the U.K.
[31:08.460 --> 31:10.420]  From what I've seen, a lot of people in the U.K.
[31:10.580 --> 31:14.820]  have criticized that treaty because it's not very symmetrical.
[31:14.820 --> 31:16.000]  It gives the U.S.
[31:16.780 --> 31:25.500]  the right to extradite British citizens under a lot sort of lower threshold than in the opposite direction.
[31:25.800 --> 31:27.840]  Yeah, and Julia, let me ask you about that.
[31:28.020 --> 31:30.000]  Obviously, there's been a lot of talk about that treaty.
[31:32.140 --> 31:42.940]  What's your understanding of how exactly it works and how something like that got to be signed in the first place, where it's easy for the United States to extradite citizens of the U.K., but not the other way around?
[31:42.940 --> 31:59.340]  Well, firstly, it was signed this side in a hurry, really, and it was not given any parliamentary scrutiny because it was done as a response to the 9-11 terrorist attacks.
[31:59.640 --> 32:01.140]  And so the U.K.
[32:01.140 --> 32:04.020]  signed it up very quickly, but the U.S.
[32:04.440 --> 32:09.460]  took several years later before they actually signed their part of the bargain.
[32:10.040 --> 32:11.200]  That's the first thing.
[32:11.320 --> 32:18.240]  But actually, I think, and I don't know an awful lot about American law and the Constitution, but as I understand it, U.S.
[32:18.680 --> 32:32.780]  citizens have some greater protection against being extradited in that they are allowed a bit of a trial to which they can challenge and bring evidence to fight their extradition.
[32:32.780 --> 32:42.380]  And I'm not too sure whether America would allow a citizen to be extradited for something the same as Richard's done from America.
[32:42.780 --> 32:46.140]  You know, they wouldn't let an American be extradited to the U.K.
[32:46.480 --> 32:49.360]  on a copyright charge for something on the Internet.
[32:49.980 --> 32:53.460]  Well, copyright laws are very different in different countries.
[32:53.840 --> 32:54.100]  Yeah.
[32:54.260 --> 33:01.740]  I don't think America would allow a citizen to be extradited for something that they have done in their own country.
[33:02.440 --> 33:18.160]  My understanding is that when the motion picture entities and recording industry, when they try to reach a settlement with an alleged violator, in the United States, it's ridiculous figures, millions of dollars, whereas in the U.K.
[33:18.160 --> 33:24.900]  it's something a lot more reasonable, putting that in quotes, but something like $1,000 or something like that.
[33:25.260 --> 33:26.560]  Mitch, is that your understanding, too?
[33:26.560 --> 33:33.860]  Well, I haven't really gone into that, because previous cases of linking sites in the U.K.
[33:34.040 --> 33:37.820]  have all been dismissed and found not guilty.
[33:38.160 --> 33:40.660]  So that issue has never arisen.
[33:40.940 --> 33:42.260]  Well, that's interesting, too.
[33:42.380 --> 33:42.980]  Mitch, you were saying?
[33:43.600 --> 33:45.100]  Oh, the law in the U.S.
[33:45.900 --> 33:48.440]  provides automatic penalties in...
[33:48.440 --> 33:49.660]  And this is civil copyright law.
[33:49.800 --> 33:51.640]  This isn't even getting to criminal cases.
[33:51.640 --> 33:56.960]  It's a minimum of $750,000 per copyrighted work and maximum of $150,000.
[33:57.240 --> 34:07.540]  And that's regardless of what the work is actually worth, whether we're talking about a $0.99 sound song download or a $10 movie download.
[34:08.280 --> 34:09.920]  Minimum of $750,000.
[34:10.180 --> 34:13.640]  And that's the basis for those huge settlements.
[34:13.720 --> 34:16.340]  It's because if you go to court, that's what you risk.
[34:17.580 --> 34:18.100]  Interesting.
[34:18.440 --> 34:18.800]  Go ahead, Mike.
[34:19.300 --> 34:23.660]  Julia, you said that this had started not last November, but the November before.
[34:23.840 --> 34:28.260]  Do you have any sense of how much longer this process can be drawn out?
[34:29.100 --> 34:38.060]  Oh, we don't really want it to be drawn out a long time, because we have this hanging over us and interfering with our lives, really.
[34:38.060 --> 34:43.520]  And Richard's about to, you know, next year is his final year at university.
[34:43.580 --> 34:46.480]  So that's a very important year.
[34:47.360 --> 34:57.140]  And the other thing is that, you know, the MPAA, through their British organisation, FACT, have offices in this country.
[34:57.640 --> 35:02.920]  And so there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have dealt with this in this country.
[35:03.860 --> 35:14.080]  You know, where Richard has been at all times, you know, they have the facilities, they have the connections, they could have easily done that.
[35:14.580 --> 35:26.220]  But I guess maybe they didn't do that, because they knew they wouldn't get a prosecution here, because, as I said to you, previous cases of linking websites in the UK have been found not guilty.
[35:26.780 --> 35:31.500]  Now, Julia, you mentioned the day when you went in and everyone was being rubber stamp extradited.
[35:32.160 --> 35:38.740]  Could you tell us some of the other offences that some of the other people were facing versus Richard's one?
[35:39.000 --> 35:45.420]  Well, it's a little bit different, because there's a different kind of arrangement between the UK and Europe.
[35:45.820 --> 35:51.160]  So there are many more cases than the ones that are getting extradited to America.
[35:52.320 --> 36:06.460]  Because the ones who are getting extradited back to Europe, they are usually European people who have left Europe and come to live in the UK, and then somebody's trying to get them back, you know, to Poland or somewhere for an offence.
[36:06.640 --> 36:18.780]  And they can be offences like non-payment of a mobile phone bill, you know, or the theft of a couple of chickens, really trivial, minor little offences.
[36:19.020 --> 36:19.280]  Wow.
[36:21.140 --> 36:24.020]  Well, Richard was in the United States when he was five years old.
[36:24.080 --> 36:27.660]  Did he do anything while he was here that the authorities might want to get him back for?
[36:27.960 --> 36:28.460]  No.
[36:29.700 --> 36:33.300]  He just enjoyed himself around Disney.
[36:34.200 --> 36:34.560]  Julia?
[36:35.800 --> 36:37.880]  That sort of thing.
[36:38.980 --> 36:39.160]  Julia.
[36:39.160 --> 36:40.260]  I have heard of some other...
[36:40.260 --> 36:40.940]  Yeah, yeah.
[36:41.980 --> 36:42.520]  Somebody...
[36:42.520 --> 36:42.960]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[36:43.500 --> 36:44.180]  Hi, Julia.
[36:44.400 --> 36:46.200]  This is in Philadelphia.
[36:47.200 --> 36:56.640]  I was reading about this case online, and I've got to say, Richard is one very lucky lad to have such a supportive mom.
[36:57.380 --> 37:08.700]  For the past year and a half, you have gone to so much effort to try to publicize this injustice, and it's really extraordinary what you've done.
[37:08.840 --> 37:14.460]  You've set up a blog, and one thing that really struck me is something that you were quoted as saying on the BBC.
[37:14.940 --> 37:18.700]  It was just a short paragraph, and I'm wondering, do you happen to have what you'd said?
[37:19.040 --> 37:19.820]  I have, yeah.
[37:19.820 --> 37:22.620]  Because it made such an impact on me when I read that.
[37:22.720 --> 37:24.100]  Could you say that again?
[37:24.460 --> 37:27.360]  Well, some of it's a little out of date, because it's...
[37:27.360 --> 37:33.140]  I'll read it out to you anyway, because I have it here, and I made this comment, you know, a week or so ago.
[37:33.980 --> 37:40.660]  And I believe this is where you refer it to other people who are also either facing the same extradition process or have already gone through it.
[37:40.960 --> 37:41.380]  On the email.
[37:41.940 --> 37:48.540]  And I said, today another... what happened was another man got signed for extradition.
[37:48.540 --> 37:55.240]  And so I made this statement of, today, yet another British citizen is being sold down the river by the British government.
[37:55.860 --> 38:08.740]  Richard's life, his studies, his work opportunities, financial security is being disrupted for who knows how long, because the UK government has not introduced the much-needed changes to the extradition law.
[38:08.740 --> 38:14.540]  The US is coming for the young, the old and the ill, and our government is paving the way.
[38:14.820 --> 38:23.380]  By rights, it should make for an interesting conversation between the Obamas and the Camerons aboard Air Force One, but I'm not holding my breath.
[38:23.620 --> 38:28.840]  If Richard appears to have committed a crime in this country, then try him in this country.
[38:28.840 --> 38:43.280]  But instead, the Home Secretary wants to send him thousands of miles away and leave him languishing, just like Christopher Tappin, in a US jail, before he has a chance to demonstrate his innocence under British law of any allegations made against him.
[38:43.980 --> 38:49.460]  Julie, you have a... you set up a blog, too, haven't you, with detailing information about this?
[38:49.680 --> 38:52.040]  Could you... could you read that URL over the air?
[38:52.500 --> 38:53.880]  Right, just let me find it, then.
[38:54.340 --> 38:55.880]  Hang on, I'll just put the phone...
[38:55.880 --> 38:56.980]  Actually, I have it here.
[38:56.980 --> 38:58.720]  Uh, the, um...
[38:58.720 --> 38:59.640]  Actually, I think I have it here.
[38:59.780 --> 39:00.520]  You know what, I'm not sure.
[39:00.980 --> 39:01.480]  I have it, too.
[39:01.480 --> 39:01.860]  I'll get it.
[39:02.060 --> 39:05.180]  Yeah, Julia's blog dashed the fight of our lives.
[39:05.440 --> 39:07.160]  Well, this dash is between all those words.
[39:07.480 --> 39:08.520]  Yeah, yeah, it's just...
[39:08.520 --> 39:12.360]  Yeah, Julia's blog dashed the fight of our lives blog spot.
[39:12.920 --> 39:18.560]  You see, I've had to learn a few techie skills in order to find out how to set up a blog.
[39:19.120 --> 39:20.480]  Well, you've done an amazing job.
[39:20.480 --> 39:24.560]  I have to say, uh, you hit the ground running with, uh, the, the activism here.
[39:24.560 --> 39:30.580]  Uh, were you prepared to do that as soon as, uh, as, as the raid happened back in 2010?
[39:31.280 --> 39:44.280]  No, no, not at all, really, because this came about because I was looking on the internet, and then I found out about the other people who had been extradited or who were, they were trying to extradite.
[39:44.880 --> 40:00.160]  Um, so, you know, I just looked to them up on the internet, and I managed to get in touch with these people, and, um, I joined on Twitter, and so, you know, I could see what was going on, and a few people said to me, have you got a campaign website?
[40:00.520 --> 40:04.140]  And I thought, well, I haven't even got a campaign, never mind a website.
[40:04.600 --> 40:11.760]  So, and I knew that Richard wouldn't want to make a website about extradition because he just wouldn't want that in his face all the time.
[40:12.000 --> 40:19.640]  So, um, I just thought, well, I better find out what a blog is then, and maybe I can make something myself.
[40:20.000 --> 40:20.940]  So, that's what I did.
[40:20.940 --> 40:29.600]  I just found on, um, on the blog spot thing, and I thought, well, I'll just make this blog, and I'll keep, like, a diary of events.
[40:29.780 --> 40:30.880]  That, that was the main thing.
[40:30.940 --> 40:35.120]  I just wanted to keep a bit of a record of, of what was happening at the time.
[40:35.120 --> 40:38.140]  Um, and so, it's just grown from there, really.
[40:38.860 --> 40:42.100]  Um, and that's, that's what I've done.
[40:42.480 --> 40:57.400]  Julie, you, you'd mentioned just then that, uh, the conversations between the Obamas and the Camerons, uh, your, your Prime Minister, uh, David Cameron, he was, he was over here visiting, uh, our President just recently, a week or two ago.
[40:57.400 --> 41:00.520]  And, uh, I've understood from reading some U.S.
[41:01.000 --> 41:07.560]  reports that Obama and David Cameron were, uh, were, were, one of the topics of their conversation here in the U.S.
[41:07.640 --> 41:09.280]  were, was this extradition treaty.
[41:09.600 --> 41:17.140]  So, this is really being discussed at the highest levels of these two, two global superpowers.
[41:17.360 --> 41:22.820]  And it's amazing to me that this is not getting the media coverage in the United States that it should.
[41:23.880 --> 41:36.920]  Well, um, I mean, you know, the, the, I don't think, um, the, the, the two of them will have discussed, uh, Richard's case, but they will have discussed, um, probably the Gary McKinnon case.
[41:37.060 --> 41:38.440]  And you might've heard about that.
[41:38.560 --> 41:41.880]  This is a man who's been fighting extradition for nearly 10 years.
[41:42.140 --> 41:42.580]  Uh-huh.
[41:42.740 --> 41:46.500]  Uh, he hacked into the Pentagon 10 years ago.
[41:46.680 --> 41:52.660]  He's got Asperger's syndrome and they've been trying to get him over to America ever since then.
[41:52.860 --> 42:01.780]  And so, and he has frequently been mentioned at these types of, um, meetings of the President Obama and, um, David Cameron.
[42:02.060 --> 42:04.880]  So, um, I'm sure they mentioned his case.
[42:04.880 --> 42:10.180]  I'm not sure they'll have mentioned any others, but they did definitely speak about extradition anyway.
[42:11.060 --> 42:12.720]  Um, when they were together.
[42:13.120 --> 42:23.540]  Now, um, I'm not too sure whether, whether it would be a good thing to have publicity, more publicity over there or, or not really.
[42:23.540 --> 42:31.200]  I mean, we've had, um, a bit of publicity with President Obama's Hangout session.
[42:31.720 --> 42:33.620]  I don't know if you know about that, but, um...
[42:33.620 --> 42:34.360]  Google Plus.
[42:34.700 --> 42:35.460]  Yeah, yeah.
[42:35.600 --> 42:38.120]  But he got asked a question about Richard.
[42:39.700 --> 42:40.820]  Um, at the Hangout.
[42:40.820 --> 42:41.420]  What did he say?
[42:41.540 --> 42:41.840]  Do you know?
[42:41.840 --> 42:44.800]  Um, the President doesn't get involved.
[42:46.500 --> 42:48.200]  I had a, I had a question.
[42:48.360 --> 43:00.480]  I don't know who's best equipped to answer this, Julia or Mitch, but, um, uh, if you were to, uh, win the appeal, um, and not be, and Richard weren't extradited to the U.S., what would that, uh, mean vis-a-vis his traveling to the U.S.
[43:00.520 --> 43:00.920]  in the future?
[43:01.040 --> 43:04.780]  Would he be, uh, in danger of being arrested here if he, if he came to the country?
[43:05.000 --> 43:08.200]  Or, uh, um, you know, what would that, what would happen, I guess?
[43:08.200 --> 43:24.300]  Well, that, exactly, that would, in fact, not only, um, would he be at risk, he would be at risk even if he stepped out of the U.K., because many other countries have, you know, security arrangements with America.
[43:24.800 --> 43:30.140]  So, um, you know, even if he went to Europe, he would be at risk of being picked up.
[43:30.660 --> 43:34.260]  So even if we win the appeal, that is not over.
[43:35.240 --> 43:35.880]  Um, but...
[43:35.880 --> 43:37.220]  What the statute of limitations is?
[43:37.220 --> 43:38.200]  We would...
[43:38.200 --> 43:39.140]  On the law?
[43:39.440 --> 43:44.760]  Do you know what the statute of limitations is, in terms of how long he can be, it is before he can be charged, uh, while he can be...
[43:44.760 --> 43:45.660]  Oh, I don't know about that.
[43:46.020 --> 43:48.380]  I, I believe it's four years, but...
[43:48.380 --> 43:48.820]  Oh, is it?
[43:49.760 --> 43:51.540]  Does the United States even respect that?
[43:51.620 --> 43:53.420]  Yeah, but that's potentially longer if he's essentially...
[43:55.640 --> 43:56.640]  No, I take that back.
[43:56.760 --> 43:59.740]  Uh, uh, uh, uh, I, I, I, I believe it's four years.
[43:59.980 --> 44:00.340]  Okay.
[44:00.760 --> 44:01.020]  Rob?
[44:01.280 --> 44:09.420]  Um, I would like to ask you, Mitch, um, let's assume, uh, for a moment, the worst happens and, uh, you know, the appeal fails and Mitch gets extradited here.
[44:09.580 --> 44:14.700]  What sort of precedent do you see that, uh, um, setting for other cases that might be like this that might come up?
[44:17.580 --> 44:24.400]  So, I'll talk, I'll talk law and I'll talk, uh, sort of politics and atmospherics on the law.
[44:25.640 --> 44:32.940]  Like I said, I don't think there's ever been a case, uh, where, where pure linking has led to a criminal conviction.
[44:34.140 --> 44:40.300]  I think if, if, you know, you know, I, I think there'll be a lot of parties very interested in Richard's defense.
[44:40.740 --> 44:48.740]  I think there'll be a lot of people, a lot of people be, be very interested in seeing that, that, that bad precedent does not get set, but of course, ultimately it would be up to a judge.
[44:49.660 --> 45:07.040]  Um, I think you'd see a lot of, probably some more conversation about criminal copyright law in general, whether it goes too far, whether this is really, uh, a civil issue where this is really about, you know, certain companies, movie studios being, you know,
[45:07.200 --> 45:08.600]  suffering financial losses.
[45:08.820 --> 45:09.600]  What are those losses?
[45:09.760 --> 45:10.680]  Are there really losses?
[45:11.300 --> 45:16.460]  Shouldn't they be able to go to court and sue for their losses without the government's help?
[45:17.100 --> 45:19.520]  Is this really a criminal issue?
[45:19.760 --> 45:25.260]  And the, the lines there are, are, are pretty blurry to the point that, that, that criminal cases are rare.
[45:25.500 --> 45:38.800]  And, and especially on the internet, criminal cases are usually for, you know, people who have, um, bootleg DVD factories, you know, where, where, where the, the, the infringement is, is, is sort of massive and obvious, and you can photograph it, point to it.
[45:40.200 --> 45:41.360]  So, uh, two questions.
[45:41.520 --> 45:45.140]  One, uh, you mentioned that it would be up to a judge, so this, this wouldn't be a jury trial?
[45:45.280 --> 45:46.620]  It would be, be decided by a judge?
[45:46.640 --> 45:48.260]  This would be, this, this would absolutely be a jury trial.
[45:48.400 --> 45:48.840]  Oh, it would be, okay.
[45:49.220 --> 45:49.360]  Yeah.
[45:49.400 --> 45:49.960]  So it would be up to a jury.
[45:50.500 --> 45:51.980]  Um, okay, that's it.
[45:52.920 --> 46:13.040]  Okay, uh, now, uh, we're speaking with, uh, Julia O'Dwyer, the mother of Richard O'Dwyer, who, uh, is facing extradition to the United States for the crime of running a website that had links that linked to various, uh, videos that, um, uh, various entities in the United States claim were done without permission,
[46:13.740 --> 46:26.440]  uh, pirated movies, pirated TV shows, things like that, uh, did not host the content by all admissions, just simply had links to, uh, various websites facing extradition to the United States for that.
[46:26.680 --> 46:32.220]  And, um, we're also speaking with, uh, Mitch Stoltz from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[46:32.880 --> 46:37.140]  Um, it, has there been any talk about, uh, worst case scenario?
[46:37.280 --> 46:42.040]  He's, he's, uh, extradited to the United States and, and put on trial what kind of penalty he's facing?
[46:43.520 --> 46:45.300]  Are you, are you asking me that?
[46:45.400 --> 46:46.280]  Well, anybody who knows.
[46:46.520 --> 46:46.880]  Yeah, yeah.
[46:47.200 --> 46:48.160]  Well, if I can...
[46:48.160 --> 46:50.920]  The, the, the legal penalty is five years in jail.
[46:51.400 --> 46:53.060]  Again, I don't know how often that happens.
[46:53.200 --> 46:59.320]  I think, I think when that happens, it's usually against, uh, like I said, people who run bootleg DVD factories and the like.
[47:00.640 --> 47:00.780]  Okay.
[47:00.900 --> 47:05.360]  And is that five years for the entire thing or for every single video that they can find a link to?
[47:07.240 --> 47:09.720]  Well, I understand there are two charges.
[47:09.720 --> 47:10.860]  One is the conspiracy.
[47:10.860 --> 47:12.780]  One is the copyright infringement.
[47:12.900 --> 47:16.280]  And the, the maximum is five years for each of those.
[47:16.460 --> 47:22.260]  But they haven't kind of said, they'd never be able to count the links for a start.
[47:23.040 --> 47:23.880]  I don't know.
[47:23.880 --> 47:33.920]  I'm not, I'm not a criminal law expert, but as far as I know, um, if you're convicted of both conspiracy and the thing that you are conspiring to do, then it's just one penalty.
[47:34.420 --> 47:35.100]  Oh, is it?
[47:35.140 --> 47:37.580]  So that would be, so that would be, that would be five years.
[47:38.040 --> 47:46.620]  Julia, obviously this has taken quite a toll on, on your family life and on, on Richard's, um, uh, school career and all that.
[47:47.240 --> 47:51.580]  Um, are you happy with the legal representation that you've gotten so far?
[47:51.700 --> 47:52.200]  Has it been adequate?
[47:52.840 --> 47:53.620]  Yeah, yeah.
[47:53.760 --> 47:53.840]  Yeah.
[47:53.840 --> 47:54.540]  I mean, it's good.
[47:54.620 --> 48:00.960]  You know, we've got one of the top, um, extradition barristers, but the thing is here though, we're not fighting the crime.
[48:01.480 --> 48:03.500]  We're fighting the extradition law.
[48:04.120 --> 48:20.480]  And so, and it's most frustrating because, you know, if, if Richard was charged with a crime, whether it was in America or here, then you'd expect to, you know, you could mount a defense and you'd either be found guilty or innocent and you'd take the penalty.
[48:20.800 --> 48:22.360]  But we're not even doing that.
[48:22.520 --> 48:24.160]  We're fighting the extradition law.
[48:24.440 --> 48:31.780]  And it's extremely difficult to fight extradition to America because for a start, America won't let go.
[48:32.640 --> 48:33.460]  And, um...
[48:33.460 --> 48:34.720]  That's our slogan, in fact.
[48:35.440 --> 48:35.740]  Huh?
[48:35.880 --> 48:36.660]  We won't let go.
[48:36.780 --> 48:38.140]  That's, uh, that's the government slogan.
[48:38.340 --> 48:38.820]  Yeah, they won't let go.
[48:39.000 --> 48:46.480]  Uh, but the other thing is everybody who gets extradited to America is imprisoned immediately in a federal prison.
[48:46.720 --> 48:47.960]  There is no bail.
[48:48.760 --> 48:57.720]  And so, and they don't want you to have a trial because they want to deal with you quickly and they want to get a conviction and they want to tick all the boxes.
[48:57.720 --> 49:03.740]  So they'll let you stew in that jail until such time as you decide to go for a plea bargain.
[49:04.260 --> 49:10.700]  And if you don't do that, they'll just leave you there until you do decide to do that because they don't want you to have a trial.
[49:10.880 --> 49:14.060]  And you're not even allowed in the same room as your lawyer.
[49:14.060 --> 49:20.480]  So I don't know how you're expected to even mount a legal defense because you can't, you're in jail.
[49:20.480 --> 49:24.440]  You can't meet with your lawyer, um, in the same room.
[49:24.580 --> 49:29.720]  You can't store papers in your cell or, well, if you don't have a cell or whatever, wherever you're kept.
[49:29.960 --> 49:38.020]  But, you know, this, uh, makes it extremely difficult to even mount your defense and have a trial.
[49:38.220 --> 49:39.980]  So, and they don't want you to have a trial.
[49:40.260 --> 49:46.500]  So you either plea bargain and even whether you're guilty or innocent, you have to pretend you're guilty, don't you?
[49:46.680 --> 49:48.660]  Just to get out of jail kind of thing.
[49:49.160 --> 49:57.800]  So for like in this country, nobody would ever be put into prison like that for a copyright infringement.
[49:58.180 --> 50:03.120]  You know, you'd be, in fact, you wouldn't be put in prison at all for even doing it.
[50:03.340 --> 50:07.500]  You know, you'd, you'd just get on bail and then you'd probably get a fine or a probation.
[50:08.300 --> 50:08.740]  Whereas...
[50:08.740 --> 50:11.620]  And in the United States, it's extremely rare.
[50:12.780 --> 50:18.800]  Yeah, but it's because of extradition because they won't allow you bail because they consider that you're a flight risk.
[50:19.600 --> 50:29.940]  Even though they've taken your passport away, they just insist on you being, um, like the guy who went there a month ago, the retired businessman.
[50:29.940 --> 50:33.040]  He's in a federal prison in New Mexico.
[50:34.400 --> 50:35.620]  Well, he's harmless.
[50:35.820 --> 50:37.480]  You know, he's not a danger to society.
[50:37.480 --> 50:38.640]  He hasn't got any money.
[50:38.820 --> 50:39.660]  He hasn't got a passport.
[50:39.920 --> 50:41.660]  How can he leave the country?
[50:42.120 --> 50:51.400]  You know, they could easily tag him and put him somewhere, but they have him in this federal, um, detention center in New Mexico.
[50:51.860 --> 50:58.460]  You know, it's, it's sad with all these cases too, because it almost feels like the prosecutors are testing what they can get away with.
[50:58.640 --> 51:07.620]  And, and, you know, in the meantime, they're basically experimenting with, with people's lives, you know, that it's, and it's, and so it, you know, it's, it's really sad that it's come to this kind of thing.
[51:07.800 --> 51:10.620]  And these are, these are, you crimes.
[51:10.880 --> 51:18.660]  I mean, you know, it's crazy that, that they're extraditing people for, for, you know, sending, for having, putting bits on the internet, you know, it's, it's really.
[51:18.800 --> 51:23.020]  No, I'd like to just jump in and say, uh, just amend something that Redhack just says.
[51:23.040 --> 51:24.800]  It's, I wouldn't even want to call it a crime.
[51:24.960 --> 51:28.380]  I mean, yes, this might, this arguably could be against some U.S.
[51:28.540 --> 51:41.460]  law, but you know, the, the point that we're, that we're all dancing around here is that someone's life is, you know, in the wind here, blowing in the wind, and it's based on laws of the country that he didn't even know he had to pay attention to.
[51:42.080 --> 51:42.260]  Yeah.
[51:43.160 --> 52:00.700]  Julia, I wanted to ask, if your, uh, if your son Richard is extradited to the United States, and I hope that doesn't happen, um, he will most certainly need, uh, need a lawyer, a United States, a United States lawyer who's familiar with both, uh, uh, federal criminal copyright law.
[52:01.140 --> 52:01.500]  Yeah.
[52:01.700 --> 52:01.840]  Yeah.
[52:01.840 --> 52:06.660]  Uh, uh, in, here in the U.S., and that could be a rather expensive proposition.
[52:07.120 --> 52:07.680]  Yeah, yeah.
[52:07.680 --> 52:14.200]  And in this country, we, we're all too familiar with the, you know, you have the best justice that money can buy.
[52:14.900 --> 52:28.700]  And, uh, I'm really concerned that, uh, you know, to mount an effective legal defense in this case, and it seems like the whole United States government is, uh, is really gunning for, for your son in this, or they wouldn't be going through all this effort to extradite him,
[52:29.240 --> 52:34.280]  that you're going to need a serious, a serious legal defense team to, uh, to defend him.
[52:34.440 --> 52:39.640]  So, I'm wondering, is there anything that our listeners could do to help financially?
[52:39.660 --> 52:46.260]  I know we're, I'd be putting the cart before the horse here, but I imagine your blog, if you could read it one more time, we'll have information about that.
[52:46.380 --> 52:48.440]  Should, it should be extradited, how people can help.
[52:48.940 --> 53:07.180]  Well, I haven't got to that stage on the blog, because we're trying not to, um, envisage that happening, but, but first of all, as I said to you before, it would be unlikely to have, for there to be a trial, because, you know, that would mean that Richard would be in prison,
[53:08.260 --> 53:20.060]  um, in jail, waiting for a trial, and they would try and actively, um, persuade him not to have a trial by keeping him in, in the jail, so that he would agree to plea bargain instead.
[53:20.140 --> 53:21.360]  That's the first thing.
[53:21.580 --> 53:33.940]  But on the matter of, um, a trial, somebody, an American citizen has already offered to fund any legal costs in the, in America, should Richard need them.
[53:34.380 --> 53:35.740]  Oh, that's wonderful news.
[53:36.360 --> 53:36.640]  Pardon?
[53:37.120 --> 53:38.520]  That's, that's very good news.
[53:38.700 --> 53:43.120]  Yeah, that's, um, um, a billionaire called Alki David.
[53:43.800 --> 53:44.880]  Do you know that name?
[53:45.120 --> 53:52.100]  Well, we don't really hang on very many billionaires, but, uh, I'm sure there will be many people that will come forward and, and offer help in various ways.
[53:52.100 --> 53:53.900]  I know we'll certainly get the word out.
[53:54.000 --> 53:56.160]  There'll be mass rallies in the street, if necessary.
[53:56.460 --> 54:01.600]  And this is, this is a news story that needs to be known by everybody in this country.
[54:01.600 --> 54:12.000]  And if it actually comes to that, where they, they force him to come to this country to face these charges, um, I think we all have the, uh, the obligation to make sure that, uh, everybody, everybody knows about it.
[54:12.200 --> 54:17.100]  We have only a minute or two left, but I want to ask you, Mitch, is there any way to sort of make the U.S.
[54:17.180 --> 54:19.800]  government stop short of bringing, uh, Richard here?
[54:20.040 --> 54:23.600]  Is there just, is there any way to start something in the U.S.
[54:23.720 --> 54:27.360]  court, uh, while Richard's still in the U.K.?
[54:28.340 --> 54:29.100]  In court?
[54:29.360 --> 54:31.240]  I don't, um, not that I know of.
[54:31.460 --> 54:41.980]  I think there is a lot of, you know, there's, there are ways to influence the government outside of court and, or at least, uh, you know, have a public conversation about this.
[54:42.380 --> 55:01.740]  You know, the, um, movie and music industries have repeatedly tried and are, and are continuing to, to, to try for, uh, more and bigger copyright enforcement mechanisms to have the government, uh, do more and more to enforce, uh, the, the, the copyrights of those industries.
[55:01.780 --> 55:09.140]  They, they go to Congress, they go to courts, they go to internet service providers, uh, wanting more and more.
[55:09.480 --> 55:26.380]  I think for us simply to say this, uh, you know, look what they are doing with the tools they already have available to them that they can reach, you know, across an ocean and, and try to, to, to drag in a citizen of another country based on the laws that they already have.
[55:27.060 --> 55:29.160]  Um, and yet they're still wanting more.
[55:29.480 --> 55:31.240]  That's, that's a conversation we really need to have.
[55:31.500 --> 55:33.680]  Well, we are pretty much out of time now.
[55:33.800 --> 55:38.600]  We've been speaking with, uh, Richard O'Dwyer's mother, Julia O'Dwyer from Sheffield in the U.K.
[55:39.100 --> 55:42.740]  and, uh, EFF staff attorney Mitch Stoltz from San Francisco.
[55:43.020 --> 55:50.900]  And I want to give you guys the opportunity to give out any, uh, web addresses, email addresses, anything that you'd like to, um, uh, to share with our listeners in the remaining moments.
[55:52.460 --> 55:54.480]  Well, I'll, I guess I'll shout out our website.
[55:54.660 --> 55:55.700]  It's EFF.org.
[55:55.820 --> 55:58.780]  We have a blog there where we cover, uh, this and similar issues.
[56:01.540 --> 56:01.940]  Okay.
[56:02.100 --> 56:02.280]  Julia?
[56:02.940 --> 56:03.160]  Yeah.
[56:03.280 --> 56:07.460]  And you, uh, you've got my, my blog and, um, on, I'm on Twitter mainly.
[56:07.460 --> 56:12.140]  That's where everything's going on for me, um, which is at J.R.O.
[56:12.280 --> 56:12.600]  Dwyer.
[56:12.900 --> 56:13.500]  I'm on Twitter.
[56:14.800 --> 56:15.200]  Okay.
[56:15.480 --> 56:18.140]  We wish you the best of, uh, of, of fortune.
[56:18.140 --> 56:23.360]  And we certainly will be following this story and, uh, uh, hats off for all the strength that you've shown.
[56:23.600 --> 56:29.840]  And, uh, please, uh, make sure that Richard knows that we all support him and, uh, and we will be fighting for him if necessary.
[56:30.380 --> 56:30.740]  I will.
[56:30.800 --> 56:33.880]  And thank you, uh, very much for giving this some good air time.
[56:34.380 --> 56:34.620]  All right.
[56:34.620 --> 56:37.420]  Well, it's definitely, definitely a story that needs to be heard.
[56:37.420 --> 56:40.260]  Our email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[56:40.260 --> 56:41.040]  This has been off the hook.
[56:41.220 --> 56:42.380]  We'll see you again next week.
[56:42.480 --> 56:42.600]  Good night.
[59:07.850 --> 59:09.570]  Ooh, man.
[59:09.570 --> 59:14.750]  That's some very interesting music here at WBAI New York 99.5 FM.
[59:14.950 --> 59:17.290]  Also streaming on the web at WBAI.org.