[00:30.820 --> 00:34.020]  1900 hours in New York City and across the eastern seaboard.
[00:34.400 --> 00:41.100]  You're listening to WBAI New York, where it's time once again for the sound of Off the Hook.
[02:22.520 --> 02:23.920]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:24.040 --> 02:28.280]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:29.260 --> 02:31.640]  Here on WBAI.
[02:32.460 --> 02:34.500]  Emmanuel, joined tonight by Mike.
[02:34.980 --> 02:36.380]  You sure you don't have to look that up?
[02:36.900 --> 02:39.040]  Okay, you know, I've had a fever for the last few days.
[02:39.060 --> 02:39.720]  Bear with me.
[02:39.900 --> 02:41.660]  I'm trying to just figure out where everything is.
[02:41.660 --> 02:43.160]  It's been hell.
[02:44.060 --> 02:46.320]  That's what happens when the temperature keeps going back and forth.
[02:46.920 --> 02:47.720]  Yes, Mike is here.
[02:48.280 --> 02:48.940]  Rob T.
[02:49.080 --> 02:49.560]  Firefly.
[02:49.920 --> 02:50.320]  Good evening.
[02:50.860 --> 02:51.440]  That Rhett.
[02:51.640 --> 02:51.820]  Hello.
[02:52.020 --> 02:52.300]  Jim.
[02:52.860 --> 02:53.160]  Hello.
[02:53.680 --> 02:58.100]  And down somewhere where there's whistling Bernie S.
[02:59.160 --> 03:00.300]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[03:00.580 --> 03:00.820]  Okay.
[03:02.200 --> 03:02.680]  Sorry about that.
[03:02.700 --> 03:03.640]  What, what, are you in a drugstore?
[03:03.940 --> 03:06.260]  There's actually a robot that dispenses medication.
[03:06.600 --> 03:09.340]  There's a robot dispensing medication somewhere in Pennsylvania.
[03:09.780 --> 03:10.180]  That's right.
[03:10.180 --> 03:12.180]  Yeah, that about ties into the kind of day I've been having.
[03:12.300 --> 03:12.760]  All right, fine.
[03:12.920 --> 03:13.780]  I wasn't trying to do that.
[03:13.880 --> 03:15.160]  It was in the way here.
[03:15.300 --> 03:15.520]  Yeah.
[03:16.100 --> 03:16.380]  All right.
[03:17.160 --> 03:18.320]  Bernie battling robots.
[03:18.500 --> 03:18.680]  Okay.
[03:18.980 --> 03:23.000]  Well, we have all kinds of things to update people on.
[03:23.220 --> 03:25.300]  This is our last program.
[03:25.940 --> 03:26.340]  Yay.
[03:27.620 --> 03:28.340]  Shut up, Jim.
[03:29.560 --> 03:33.280]  Our last program before the spring fundraiser.
[03:33.280 --> 03:38.460]  And I know people are rolling their eyes into the back of their heads right now saying, oh my God, yet again, there's going to be another fundraiser.
[03:38.520 --> 03:39.100]  Well, you know what?
[03:39.520 --> 03:41.060]  We're not in charge of the seasons.
[03:41.100 --> 03:42.000]  It's how it works.
[03:42.040 --> 03:42.200]  Okay.
[03:42.280 --> 03:42.700]  It's May.
[03:42.960 --> 03:44.020]  We always do this in May.
[03:44.400 --> 03:46.640]  So, you know, time might be passing faster for you.
[03:46.780 --> 03:47.200]  I don't know.
[03:47.420 --> 03:49.760]  But May is when we do the fundraiser for spring.
[03:49.920 --> 03:51.900]  Because if we do it in June, part of it's going to be in summer.
[03:52.020 --> 03:52.840]  And then that gets confusing.
[03:52.840 --> 03:54.060]  So we do it in May.
[03:54.240 --> 03:55.500]  And yes, it starts next week.
[03:55.600 --> 03:57.180]  We have a special two-hour program.
[03:57.500 --> 03:58.720]  So you get more of us.
[03:58.800 --> 04:02.000]  But you get more annoying versions of us because we'll be asking for money.
[04:02.100 --> 04:12.540]  But we're going to try and make it as pleasant as possible with all kinds of cool things to give out in exchange for your generous donation that keeps this radio station on the air.
[04:12.740 --> 04:19.780]  Our listeners, by the way, can help us make it as pleasant as possible by pledging quickly so that we don't have to keep asking for money.
[04:19.840 --> 04:20.440]  Are you sick too?
[04:21.060 --> 04:21.700]  Everyone's sick.
[04:21.860 --> 04:22.400]  You got a cold.
[04:22.400 --> 04:23.240]  I can tell from your voice.
[04:23.340 --> 04:23.560]  Wow.
[04:23.900 --> 04:25.840]  And Redhack is not here because he is sick.
[04:26.740 --> 04:28.040]  And I think he's also getting jitters.
[04:28.160 --> 04:29.080]  But that's another thing.
[04:29.920 --> 04:30.240]  Yes.
[04:30.480 --> 04:31.200]  I'm not sick.
[04:31.240 --> 04:32.600]  But I'm locked in a booth with you guys.
[04:32.600 --> 04:34.200]  So I expect to be sick by the end of the hour.
[04:34.400 --> 04:36.360]  About this booth, it's way too small.
[04:36.580 --> 04:36.940]  It's about...
[04:36.940 --> 04:38.420]  Imagine the size of a telephone booth.
[04:38.540 --> 04:40.540]  And you've got six of us crammed in here.
[04:40.860 --> 04:41.480]  It's just...
[04:41.480 --> 04:42.160]  It's not right.
[04:42.300 --> 04:43.860]  And that's how we get sick all the time, too.
[04:44.380 --> 04:44.880]  But okay.
[04:44.980 --> 04:46.100]  On the subject...
[04:46.100 --> 04:47.040]  And Bernie, too.
[04:47.120 --> 04:48.340]  Of course, he's in the phone booth as well.
[04:48.440 --> 04:49.960]  But he's just vocalized.
[04:50.080 --> 04:51.020]  But believe me, that's enough.
[04:52.400 --> 04:52.920]  Of...
[04:52.920 --> 04:54.340]  Robot phone booth.
[04:54.600 --> 04:55.120]  Speaking...
[04:55.120 --> 04:55.240]  Yeah.
[04:55.380 --> 04:56.100]  The robot as well.
[04:56.720 --> 05:07.880]  Speaking of radio stations and futures and things like that, I do have some rather sobering news and some rather, you know, something to be worried about.
[05:08.460 --> 05:11.080]  As you know, radio is constantly in flux.
[05:11.300 --> 05:17.280]  Radio is something where one day the format might change and things are completely different.
[05:18.600 --> 05:22.620]  And the FM dial in New York City is no exception to that.
[05:23.140 --> 05:24.460]  We've seen it many, many times.
[05:24.460 --> 05:26.240]  We've seen all kinds of changes over the years.
[05:26.520 --> 05:27.860]  And we will see it again.
[05:27.860 --> 05:29.260]  We will see it many, many times.
[05:30.300 --> 05:37.280]  Now, as you know, sports has become something of a phenomena over the past however many eons.
[05:38.480 --> 05:42.020]  And, you know, years ago, there didn't used to be a 24-hour sports station.
[05:42.020 --> 05:43.040]  Now, there's several of them.
[05:43.260 --> 05:48.040]  And, in fact, they've figured out ESPN has a radio station in New York.
[05:48.820 --> 05:56.140]  And they decided that they want to have a Spanish sports station now in New York City.
[05:56.340 --> 06:01.260]  I think they're going to put that at WEPN at 10.50 a.m.
[06:01.760 --> 06:03.000]  So, now, here's the deal.
[06:03.580 --> 06:08.420]  They're planning on moving one of the sports...
[06:08.420 --> 06:09.340]  I can't keep track of them all.
[06:09.420 --> 06:11.720]  But one of the sports stations, they want to move to FM.
[06:11.880 --> 06:13.200]  They want to move to the FM dial.
[06:13.940 --> 06:16.640]  They were originally going to try and use KROQ 92.3.
[06:16.780 --> 06:17.840]  That's not going to work out.
[06:17.940 --> 06:19.260]  They were going to do 101.9.
[06:19.360 --> 06:20.180]  That's not going to work out.
[06:20.180 --> 06:26.040]  So, instead, what they have decided to do is buy a station in New York City.
[06:26.260 --> 06:32.400]  Buy, in fact, a non-commercial station above 92 in New York.
[06:33.040 --> 06:34.660]  Yeah, there aren't very many of those, are there?
[06:35.220 --> 06:36.440]  And we happen to be one of them.
[06:37.920 --> 06:39.100]  Dun, dun, dun, dun.
[06:39.280 --> 06:39.700]  Well, no.
[06:39.860 --> 06:41.040]  No reason to say that, DiRet.
[06:41.180 --> 06:43.880]  Because the station I'm referring to, apparently...
[06:43.880 --> 06:44.800]  Well, actually, I don't know this.
[06:44.800 --> 06:46.240]  Because, you know, we could be surprised.
[06:46.240 --> 06:47.060]  It could happen.
[06:47.420 --> 06:48.620]  This is how radio works.
[06:48.620 --> 06:51.820]  You know, you find the locks changed one day, and all of a sudden, you're playing country music.
[06:52.740 --> 06:58.380]  But in this particular case, it looks as if the station they're looking at is one we've discussed before.
[06:58.380 --> 07:08.700]  Not WBAI 99.5 FM, but WFME 94.7 Family Radio, the religious station that we talked about going up for sale.
[07:08.720 --> 07:14.700]  In fact, when we talked about this a few months ago, the challenge we issued was for somebody to buy it and do something different with it.
[07:14.940 --> 07:17.600]  And I don't know if 24-hour sports is different.
[07:17.600 --> 07:24.180]  It's certainly different on the FM dial in New York City, but kind of was hoping for something a little bit more alternative than that.
[07:24.320 --> 07:29.360]  But at least, you know, if this does happen, we're not affected by it in a bad way.
[07:29.500 --> 07:32.960]  Now, wasn't Family Radio Network the folks that were saying the world was going to end last year?
[07:33.080 --> 07:34.360]  Yes, and their world did end.
[07:34.660 --> 07:36.580]  And now their station is evaporating.
[07:37.540 --> 07:38.780]  I think they should have given it away.
[07:38.780 --> 07:41.000]  If the world was going to end, why sell it?
[07:41.000 --> 07:41.400]  Exactly.
[07:41.660 --> 07:50.320]  Well, what I want to know is, whatever happened to these, you know, smaller digital stations that are supposed to be a little sandwiched in all the, you know, older, larger frequencies?
[07:50.600 --> 07:52.200]  You know, why do they have to buy a whole station?
[07:52.200 --> 08:01.260]  Well, there is going to be a little station on May 1st, a digital station that the folks at Occupy Wall Street will be running on May 1st.
[08:01.260 --> 08:05.880]  And they're looking for talent to do radio programming on that day.
[08:06.640 --> 08:07.300]  You know what?
[08:07.340 --> 08:08.920]  I don't have it in front of me.
[08:09.220 --> 08:11.740]  Does anybody have access to our mailing list?
[08:11.860 --> 08:13.080]  Because it was posted there.
[08:13.400 --> 08:13.840]  No?
[08:14.140 --> 08:14.480]  Okay.
[08:14.640 --> 08:16.480]  Well, maybe we can find it by the end of the show.
[08:16.580 --> 08:21.460]  But I do know, in fact, the show you just heard, Occupy Wall Street Radio, they were talking about that.
[08:21.940 --> 08:26.740]  May 1st will be a micro-broadcasting station right on in the Wall Street environs.
[08:26.920 --> 08:29.780]  And they're looking for people to get involved.
[08:29.780 --> 08:31.500]  It's a great way to get involved with radio.
[08:31.880 --> 08:35.100]  And somehow it's completely legal, which I think is awesome.
[08:35.780 --> 08:36.180]  Yeah.
[08:36.600 --> 08:45.300]  I don't know anything about this specific station, but I guess if you keep under a certain power limit, then you can do whatever you want, even if what you want is to be on Wall Street.
[08:45.420 --> 08:53.260]  I was just reading, actually, about a concert that took place in Watkins Glen, New York, back in, I think, 1973, 1974.
[08:53.700 --> 08:56.240]  And they had a pirate radio station.
[08:56.900 --> 09:03.620]  I think it was called CFN or something like that, three-letter call sign that began with C.
[09:04.020 --> 09:06.480]  And they told everybody they were Canadian radio.
[09:06.760 --> 09:11.060]  And basically, they were broadcasting the entire event, which lasted for several days.
[09:11.300 --> 09:19.920]  They were right smack next to New York State troopers who actually went on the radio a few times to advise crowds about various things they should be aware of.
[09:19.920 --> 09:28.120]  And they were just operating right there out in the open and doing a great job serving the community and completely illegally because they never could have gotten a license otherwise.
[09:28.120 --> 09:29.480]  But it worked out great.
[09:29.600 --> 09:31.180]  And I just read about that.
[09:31.320 --> 09:32.260]  I've never heard about this before.
[09:32.460 --> 09:33.800]  Bernie, have you ever heard about anything like that?
[09:34.840 --> 09:35.660]  Well, yeah.
[09:35.680 --> 09:47.520]  In general, these low-power stations, they fall under an FCC regulation called Part 15, which has various peculiarities to it, like the size of the antenna and the height of the antenna and the power limit.
[09:47.520 --> 09:48.940]  But it's not like measured in milliwatts.
[09:49.040 --> 09:54.260]  It's usually like, you know, microwatts per cubic square centimeter and so forth.
[09:54.420 --> 10:01.160]  But it basically averages out so you can't have a signal more than, say, about 100 milliwatts, which is a tenth of a watt.
[10:01.780 --> 10:07.360]  But most of the people that say that they're Part 15 really sort of push the envelope, and it's a little more power than that.
[10:07.820 --> 10:09.160]  Otherwise, you won't be heard very far.
[10:09.260 --> 10:09.660]  But that's it.
[10:09.720 --> 10:12.420]  Part 15 is legal if you follow the rules.
[10:12.420 --> 10:13.540]  Okay.
[10:13.860 --> 10:14.780]  Good to know.
[10:14.920 --> 10:17.800]  Good to know that these things are possible.
[10:18.600 --> 10:19.260]  Okay.
[10:19.260 --> 10:27.860]  We had an interesting news story that occurred last week about a server being seized here in New York City.
[10:28.600 --> 10:32.440]  RiseUp.net had a server seized by the U.S.
[10:32.740 --> 10:35.160]  federal authorities on Wednesday.
[10:35.740 --> 10:37.380]  Actually, just about a week ago.
[10:39.240 --> 10:44.920]  Basically, a co-location facility shared by RiseUp Networks and May 1st slash PeopleLink here in New York City.
[10:46.480 --> 10:52.600]  This server was operated by the European Counter Network, ECN, which is the oldest independent internet service provider in Europe.
[10:53.040 --> 10:58.220]  And one of the things they do is provide an anonymous remailer service known as MixMaster.
[10:59.000 --> 11:12.020]  MixMaster turned out to be the target of an FBI investigation, supposedly into those bomb threats that are against the University of Pittsburgh, where apparently every five minutes there's a new bomb threat that's made anonymously, and everybody has to leave the building.
[11:14.080 --> 11:19.340]  We'll get into the server seizure in a moment, but an update on those bomb threats.
[11:19.540 --> 11:38.340]  Supposedly, a group calling itself the Threateners has claimed responsibility for the University of Pittsburgh bomb threats, and says the threats will stop now that Chancellor Mark Nordenberg met their demand to drop the $50,000 reward that Pitt offered for information on the bomb.
[11:38.480 --> 11:41.520]  That doesn't seem like a very good condition for bomb threats.
[11:41.880 --> 11:46.200]  You drop the reward for the bomb threats, and we won't make any more bomb threats.
[11:46.640 --> 11:47.500]  I don't know.
[11:47.840 --> 12:02.520]  The bomb threats started in February with a message scrawled on a wall of Pitt's Chevron Science Center, and they've become so disruptive that some professors began to hold classes outdoors, offer them online, and have led some students to stay off campus.
[12:03.120 --> 12:08.460]  An email forwarded on Friday to the Pitt News, the University student newspaper, detailed the Threateners' demand.
[12:08.720 --> 12:21.520]  This all began when you, Nordenberg, put out a $10,000, then $50,000 reward for some young kid who'd pranked the university, and simply withdraw the reward and we will end our actions permanently.
[12:24.000 --> 12:26.420]  Well, this really is a bit silly.
[12:26.540 --> 12:35.220]  But what's not silly is when innocent people are targeted, of course, by bomb threats, but also by FBI coming and taking computer systems.
[12:35.560 --> 12:39.220]  What is the advantage to taking an anonymous re-mailer?
[12:39.520 --> 12:41.920]  Will they actually be able to find any information on that?
[12:42.100 --> 12:44.920]  No, they won't be able to find any information on the anonymous re-mailer.
[12:44.920 --> 12:46.380]  So that's why it's anonymous.
[12:46.520 --> 12:52.620]  But what they will be able to find is whatever else is going on on this server that the ECN is running.
[12:54.000 --> 12:55.980]  And that could be anything.
[12:56.300 --> 12:56.760]  Yeah, yeah.
[12:56.820 --> 12:59.800]  I happen to know that the Yes Men are also hosted in the same facility.
[13:00.000 --> 13:07.480]  And, of course, a week ago today, the Yes Men kind of angered the Bank of America with various press releases and denials and things like that.
[13:07.560 --> 13:08.420]  So who knows?
[13:08.500 --> 13:12.880]  Who knows what kind of information can be seen just by taking a server out of a co-location facility?
[13:13.080 --> 13:14.460]  Well, information is one thing.
[13:14.460 --> 13:17.240]  The other side is the service which is being rendered.
[13:17.520 --> 13:27.000]  There's going to be many people who use this anonymous re-mailer that no longer will be able to, which could be, in this particular case, these threateners, but also lots of other people as well.
[13:27.100 --> 13:33.940]  So they can also do... if that might be what they also want to do, is just simply cut off people from a readily available service.
[13:34.340 --> 13:35.280]  It's a chilling effect.
[13:35.280 --> 13:43.000]  But, you know, I think really the most negative part about all this is that it basically shows being anonymous as being evil.
[13:43.380 --> 13:51.880]  So only anonymous people will make bomb threats, and that means that if you have an anonymous re-mailer, you're basically opening up a door for them and serving that crowd.
[13:51.880 --> 13:56.660]  And if you've got nothing to hide, why are you hiding behind, you know, a mask of some sort?
[13:57.260 --> 13:59.940]  So basically, you know, the average person might think that.
[13:59.940 --> 14:00.440]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[14:01.060 --> 14:10.020]  I'd like to see the affidavit of probable cause that the police used to seize that anonymous, you know, the MixMaster server.
[14:10.180 --> 14:20.620]  Because the technology really, as Mike pointed out, it's not going to allow them to gain access to the information that they're supposedly seeking.
[14:21.560 --> 14:25.580]  So I'd really... interesting legal challenges could be made.
[14:26.280 --> 14:32.580]  I mean, it's already been seized and taken down, which sort of just fait accompli.
[14:32.700 --> 14:45.020]  But I mean, I'd like to see what the affidavit of probable cause was, because most of these affidavits are just full of just really ignorant statements about from law enforcement people that don't understand the technology that they're seizing.
[14:45.540 --> 14:54.660]  Well, they may not understand the technology, but they certainly do understand how to screw it up and how to have a chilling effect and scare people and basically influence public opinion.
[14:54.660 --> 15:07.360]  So, you know, we're here to counter that and to show the advantages of anonymity and the value and just the basic right of people not to have to identify themselves constantly.
[15:08.500 --> 15:24.440]  For every act of stupidity, such as a bomb threat, we can point to a hundred examples of something that's worthy of being anonymous and getting the word out about something important, and some kind of a leak or a whistleblower or various things like that.
[15:25.740 --> 15:26.880]  It's vital, in fact.
[15:27.880 --> 15:30.700]  What's interesting is that they didn't try and subpoena the records.
[15:30.860 --> 15:33.020]  The records don't exist anyway, so it wouldn't have done any good.
[15:33.140 --> 15:34.060]  But they didn't even try.
[15:34.640 --> 15:36.500]  They just went in and seized the server.
[15:36.660 --> 15:42.060]  And I would like to see what would happen if they would do this, you know, if they suspected information was stored on a Google server.
[15:42.240 --> 15:44.360]  Would they just walk in and seize the Google server?
[15:44.600 --> 15:46.620]  It would be very interesting to find out.
[15:47.200 --> 15:48.420]  Yeah, I'd like to see that.
[15:48.420 --> 15:52.640]  Well, that's why I bring up the whole issue of simply removing the service in general.
[15:52.900 --> 16:01.360]  If they didn't even try to subpoena records because they know they're not there, then taking the server down simply seems to serve only the purpose of removing the service.
[16:02.320 --> 16:03.740]  Of course, it didn't remove the service.
[16:03.900 --> 16:06.180]  I believe things kept operating.
[16:06.460 --> 16:07.740]  Well, this server...
[16:07.740 --> 16:12.320]  I mean, RiseUp and May 1st run a number of services, most of which were not on this server.
[16:12.820 --> 16:18.120]  So the core operations of those two entities were not affected, but this server is gone.
[16:18.420 --> 16:18.960]  Mm-hmm.
[16:19.340 --> 16:21.200]  And not coming back any time soon, supposedly.
[16:22.600 --> 16:23.220]  All right.
[16:23.780 --> 16:26.740]  Here's an interesting little bit of history.
[16:26.920 --> 16:27.020]  Oh, Emmanuel.
[16:27.300 --> 16:27.800]  Yeah, go ahead, Bernie.
[16:28.300 --> 16:35.560]  I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm wondering if there's any safe harbor provision in this, if there was any mail services running on that server.
[16:36.080 --> 16:54.700]  Doesn't the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the ECPA of, what was that, 1986, provide some safe harbor, or actually maybe some penalties, civil penalties for a law enforcement agency that would seize a server that has mail on it?
[16:54.780 --> 16:57.340]  Didn't that happen in the Steve Jackson Games case back then?
[16:57.340 --> 16:57.580]  Bernie.
[16:57.900 --> 17:01.800]  This is only relevant if you believe that the law enforcement is actually going to follow the law.
[17:02.760 --> 17:03.620]  This is true.
[17:03.800 --> 17:04.880]  I'm kind of an idealist.
[17:04.880 --> 17:05.600]  I agree.
[17:05.740 --> 17:07.740]  But it does provide civil penalties.
[17:08.120 --> 17:21.320]  And in the case of Steve Jackson Games back in, what was that, it was, you know, a long time ago, the Secret Service had to pay thousands of dollars to people who were adversely affected by their illegal action.
[17:21.320 --> 17:27.480]  It happens occasionally, but people don't remember, unfortunately, and it doesn't happen nearly often enough.
[17:28.920 --> 17:39.420]  Speaking of history, though, and right about that time, basically, what we have here is a Los Angeles television station.
[17:39.420 --> 17:48.620]  I believe it's a Los Angeles television station that's decided to go back and reminisce fondly about the good old days of the L.A.
[17:48.680 --> 17:53.520]  riots and have a live Twitter feed of 20 years ago.
[17:53.800 --> 17:56.720]  And right now what I'm looking at, I'm looking at the Twitter feed of real-time L.A.
[17:56.820 --> 17:57.220]  riots.
[17:58.200 --> 18:05.140]  And basically, it's, I guess, lined up to where it was 20 years ago on this day.
[18:06.120 --> 18:09.040]  Attorneys and judge meet again for jury messages.
[18:09.040 --> 18:10.540]  That happened six hours ago.
[18:11.440 --> 18:12.760]  Deliberations, day three.
[18:12.960 --> 18:14.160]  Jury working through weekend.
[18:14.460 --> 18:17.940]  Obviously, it's not the weekend now, but 20 years ago this day, I guess it was.
[18:17.940 --> 18:21.940]  Judge Stanley Weisberg defines beat as to hit or strike repeatedly.
[18:22.360 --> 18:24.360]  And basically, various questions are being asked.
[18:24.540 --> 18:27.260]  So, if you follow the Twitter account real-time L.A.
[18:27.320 --> 18:31.700]  riots, you'll get to experience the thrill and excitement of the L.A.
[18:31.740 --> 18:34.400]  riots as they occur all over again 20 years later.
[18:34.640 --> 18:35.340]  Isn't that something?
[18:35.520 --> 18:36.900]  What you can do with Twitter.
[18:37.780 --> 18:45.240]  There was another interesting use of Twitter over the weekend with the French elections, which I thought was really kind of interesting.
[18:45.420 --> 18:51.380]  Now, in France, they have this law and they're very strict about it as far as predicting winners of elections.
[18:51.380 --> 18:54.580]  You can't do this before, I believe, it's around 8 p.m.
[18:54.660 --> 18:55.860]  their time when the polls close.
[18:56.080 --> 19:02.580]  And if you're a media organization and you predict based on exit polls or anything like that, you will be fined 75,000 euros.
[19:02.800 --> 19:05.780]  And they will wake a judge up and fine you on the spot.
[19:06.100 --> 19:19.060]  So, what happened was Twitter users turned Sunday's presidential election into a battle between a green Hungarian wine and a red Dutch cheese in a bid to get round tough laws banning result predictions.
[19:19.700 --> 19:38.600]  The pound Radio Laundrie hashtag, that's Radio L-O-N-D-R-E-S, hashtag was the top France trend on Twitter during the first round presidential vote in homage to World War II codes broadcast to resistance fighters in Nazi-occupied France from the BBC in London.
[19:39.400 --> 19:49.420]  French citizens have written a new code book in a subversive bid to get around laws that mean anyone announcing vote predictions before polls closed could be fined up to 75,000 euros, about $100,000.
[19:49.960 --> 19:56.860]  Tune in to Radio Laundrie so as not to know the figures we don't want to know before 8 p.m., said one ironic tweet.
[19:57.100 --> 20:07.560]  As a result, incumbent Nicolas Sarkozy became either Takaji Wine, which, like his father, comes from Hungary, or Rolex because of his perceived bling-bling lifestyle.
[20:07.680 --> 20:18.580]  His socialist opponent, Francois Hollande, was either Gouda cheese from Holland or a soft, sweet, flamby caramel dessert and hold an unforgiving nickname for the portly frontrunner.
[20:19.160 --> 20:33.500]  For our right candidate, Marine Le Pen was associated with the names of totalitarian regimes or rodents, and the communist party-backed Jean-Luc Mélenchon was either a rotten tomato or something linked to the former Soviet Union.
[20:33.740 --> 20:44.580]  The tweets were witty, bemused, or cruel, with many including links to francophone media websites in Belgium or Switzerland that are beyond the reach of French law and thus able to publish leaked estimates.
[20:44.800 --> 20:52.820]  Dutch cheese at 27 euros, Tokai Wine at 25 euros, read one tweet as poll percentage predictions were published abroad.
[20:53.520 --> 20:56.920]  This Belgian site has excellent weather forecasts, said another.
[20:57.100 --> 20:58.520]  The sea temperature is 16 degrees.
[20:58.900 --> 21:05.980]  Global warming is indeed happening, said one tweet in an apparent reference to the score of the far-right candidate's first name, Marine.
[21:07.360 --> 21:15.980]  Who's doing the 75,000 euro tweet then, said one tweet, with only 10 French election officials reportedly tasked with monitoring social networks for breaches of the law.
[21:16.380 --> 21:18.500]  Web users felt free to enjoy themselves.
[21:18.980 --> 21:30.260]  This is amazing that they actually think they can control people saying that so-and-so is set to win, but it just shows that people will always figure out a way to get around this.
[21:30.460 --> 21:34.420]  Well, this particular law seems to have to do with an older mode of happening.
[21:34.620 --> 21:51.800]  So, you know, they're talking about old-style media organizations where they didn't want them to possibly influence the outcome of these elections, but now that things like Twitter are around and the definition of media is getting hazy, it's going to be very hard to try to tell every single person on the Internet not to say anything.
[21:52.020 --> 22:01.600]  Yeah, and it's always been a technical reality of how the Internet is designed that it's supposed to route around damage, and it's great to see that the human components of the Internet can also route around censorship in interesting ways like this.
[22:01.680 --> 22:02.620]  It's always going to happen.
[22:02.880 --> 22:04.220]  You can never silence people.
[22:04.360 --> 22:10.400]  You can never keep them from saying something that's on their minds, and certainly an election is something where a lot of people have something to say.
[22:11.600 --> 22:22.100]  Continuing with Twitter, because Twitter is in the news, this is interesting, this article from the Village Voice, Twitter messages, obviously, are public.
[22:22.300 --> 22:24.960]  That's the point of social media, to share, to broadcast.
[22:25.320 --> 22:36.780]  But one of the reasons people continue to tweet and to post incriminating photographs of their youthful keg stands on Facebook is the illusion that they have some measure of control over what they're putting out there.
[22:36.880 --> 22:46.800]  They can take it down if they choose to, or rest secure in the knowledge that when they've posted enough new tweets, the old ones will recede beyond the event horizon of tweets lost to the ages.
[22:46.800 --> 22:49.060]  Of course, all of that is an illusion.
[22:49.360 --> 22:54.380]  As Judge Matthew Scarino ruled recently, your tweets aren't actually your tweets.
[22:54.640 --> 23:03.220]  He was ruling on motions in the case of Malcolm Harris, the managing editor of the new inquiry, charged in connection with last September's Occupy Wall Street march on the Brooklyn Bridge.
[23:03.660 --> 23:07.640]  You might also remember Harris as the guy behind last fall's Radiohead concert hoax.
[23:08.320 --> 23:16.160]  The Twitter feed in question, which is named Destructure Mal, currently only displays tweets going back to February.
[23:16.800 --> 23:22.880]  But it's a fair guess that somewhere deep in Twitter services, in their servers, older deleted tweets are preserved.
[23:23.260 --> 23:32.340]  Prosecutors claim that if they can get at those tweets, it will disprove Harris's contention that he only entered the roadway of the Brooklyn Bridge because he was under the impression that police were allowing it.
[23:32.840 --> 23:39.080]  But as Scarino ruled, the end user agreement Harris signed when he joined Twitter means he doesn't have any say in the matter.
[23:39.200 --> 23:43.780]  Twitter's license to use the defendant's tweets means that the tweets the defendant posted were not hit.
[23:43.780 --> 23:45.840]  I can't believe a judge is actually talking like this, but it's true.
[23:46.280 --> 23:48.200]  The tweets are not actually his.
[23:48.580 --> 23:51.160]  And I have to say also, you know, I can't be that surprised by this.
[23:51.260 --> 23:57.720]  Anyone who signs up for Twitter thinking that they have full control over what it is they post there, it's really fooling themselves.
[23:57.880 --> 24:06.600]  Obviously, this is something that's going to be archived deep within Twitter's bowels and something that you're not going to be able to erase ever from their records.
[24:06.980 --> 24:13.460]  You know, it's not like making a phone call where you make a phone call to somebody and it's between you, the phone company, and that person.
[24:14.060 --> 24:22.000]  But if you're broadcasting it to the entire world, even if Twitter didn't keep track of it, someone else can easily do that because the whole world can see it.
[24:22.400 --> 24:30.380]  So it's just kind of surprising to me that people would actually think that tweets are a secure way of communicating or that they can be protected.
[24:30.380 --> 24:30.600]  Rob?
[24:30.780 --> 24:31.720]  Yeah, and it's not just Twitter.
[24:31.940 --> 24:34.620]  Like, ever since, you know, there's Facebook where you can...
[24:34.620 --> 24:40.880]  you have the illusion of posting something only to your friends or other social networks, even back to the days of, like, LiveJournal, AOL, everything else.
[24:41.460 --> 24:49.900]  But, you know, if you face every posting you ever make to the internet, textual, graphical, whatever, as something that the entire internet can see, because that's the truth.
[24:50.560 --> 24:58.240]  So just assume that when you post something, your friends will see it, your family will see it, your future bosses will see it, because that's really the reality of the situation.
[24:58.460 --> 24:58.740]  All right.
[24:58.740 --> 25:03.040]  Yeah, I think a really big issue is these user agreements.
[25:03.240 --> 25:09.980]  Most people just, you know, sign, click whatever the little button is, and just go onto the service happily, never really have any idea what it is they actually signed up for.
[25:10.420 --> 25:11.520]  Well, who can read all that?
[25:11.560 --> 25:12.380]  Who can read all that tiny text?
[25:12.380 --> 25:13.380]  It's a really big problem.
[25:13.680 --> 25:14.620]  It's a really big problem.
[25:14.740 --> 25:23.220]  You have people basically entering into contracts that they're totally unaware of, and they don't know how their information is being used and what rights they have or really don't have at all.
[25:23.220 --> 25:33.600]  I think if you just assume it's going to be abused, it's going to be used the way you don't want it to be, maybe you'll find another way of communicating that doesn't involve broadcasting to the entire world and having some corporation...
[25:33.600 --> 25:42.020]  Well, there are definitely better ways that you can communicate over the internet and not have to worry about your rights being violated quite so often.
[25:42.020 --> 25:50.060]  But as Rob said, the best course of action is to assume that anything you put on over the internet can and will be seen by everyone.
[25:50.300 --> 25:51.960]  I tried installing Jabber the other day.
[25:52.520 --> 25:53.380]  Anybody ever use that?
[25:53.520 --> 25:54.820]  Boy, what a pain in the ass.
[25:55.060 --> 25:55.840]  It's a little bit hard.
[25:56.140 --> 25:57.300]  Okay, you can help me later then.
[25:57.400 --> 26:04.180]  I kept getting unauthorized and won't find the people that I'm trying to talk to, and it's just, it's not intuitive, I'll say that.
[26:04.260 --> 26:05.520]  And that's part of the problem.
[26:05.780 --> 26:09.340]  You know, we have to make these things easier for people to use, then more people will use them.
[26:09.340 --> 26:13.140]  You know, it shouldn't need a degree to, like, install these things.
[26:13.380 --> 26:15.100]  There are other clients you could use.
[26:15.300 --> 26:16.280]  Well, okay, fine.
[26:16.280 --> 26:18.380]  Other clients too, but find me the right one.
[26:18.440 --> 26:19.040]  Yes, Bernie, go ahead.
[26:19.360 --> 26:26.020]  I just want to point out, we were talking about people thinking that what they tweet eventually will be, you know, private or not searchable.
[26:26.360 --> 26:29.820]  Didn't Twitter Corporation a year or two ago...
[26:29.820 --> 26:32.580]  I'm sorry, Bernie, I just had a break in because it's a late-breaking thing with the LA riots.
[26:32.780 --> 26:33.680]  No verdict yet.
[26:33.780 --> 26:35.900]  Jurors deliberated 3.5 hours today.
[26:36.080 --> 26:36.540]  Sorry, go ahead.
[26:37.600 --> 26:38.340]  Wow, thank you.
[26:39.380 --> 26:51.140]  Didn't Twitter Corporation a year or two ago do this big PR stunt by donating their entire archive of tweets that everybody had ever posted to the U.S.
[26:51.200 --> 26:52.160]  Library of Congress?
[26:52.340 --> 26:55.760]  Yeah, you know, I always thought that was a practical joke, but apparently that's something that...
[26:55.760 --> 26:57.360]  I guess they have to continue doing it.
[26:57.500 --> 27:04.320]  They have to install a T1 or something into the Library of Congress to totally update them every single minute with all the nonsense people are saying.
[27:04.320 --> 27:11.780]  But, yeah, if that's the case, then, you know, all the FBI has to do is go there to look up whatever anybody said at any time.
[27:12.840 --> 27:14.220]  It's really pretty silly.
[27:15.740 --> 27:16.180]  Okay.
[27:17.980 --> 27:18.500]  Let's see.
[27:18.580 --> 27:20.160]  What else is going on here?
[27:21.240 --> 27:24.620]  We have all kinds of fun things coming up.
[27:26.080 --> 27:26.700]  Let's see.
[27:26.900 --> 27:27.540]  I don't know where to...
[27:27.540 --> 27:27.700]  Oh, yeah.
[27:27.780 --> 27:27.900]  Okay.
[27:28.220 --> 27:31.640]  Sticking with Twitter just for a moment, and then we're going to move on to something else.
[27:32.700 --> 27:34.440]  This is the story of a kid...
[27:34.440 --> 27:35.960]  Where is this?
[27:36.520 --> 27:39.780]  So I'll figure it out as I read the story.
[27:40.240 --> 27:41.420]  A kid somewhere...
[27:41.420 --> 27:41.960]  It might be in Iowa.
[27:42.160 --> 27:45.000]  I think it might be in Iowa, because it's in Des Moines.
[27:45.060 --> 27:46.560]  The only other Des Moines I know is in Washington.
[27:47.740 --> 27:54.360]  This kid was using Twitter, and he used bad language on Twitter, and he got expelled from his high school as a result.
[27:54.660 --> 27:59.460]  Yeah, Austin Carroll, a student at Garrett High School and resident of Indiana.
[27:59.720 --> 28:00.760]  Is it Des Moines, Indiana?
[28:00.760 --> 28:01.200]  Okay.
[28:01.960 --> 28:07.220]  It was expelled from school after he posted offensive language on his personal Twitter account.
[28:07.920 --> 28:09.580]  If my account is on my...
[28:09.580 --> 28:15.060]  If my account is on my own personal account, I don't think the school or anybody should be looking at it.
[28:15.880 --> 28:16.300]  All right.
[28:16.360 --> 28:19.860]  I guess that makes some sense, because it's my own personal stuff, and it's none of their business.
[28:20.420 --> 28:27.420]  True, but it is posted publicly, but being expelled for using bad language on a site that has nothing to do with the school is insane.
[28:27.920 --> 28:35.180]  The school claims it was justified in removing Carroll from school because they believe he used a school computer to access his account.
[28:36.000 --> 28:37.880]  Carroll maintains he tweeted from home.
[28:37.980 --> 28:43.720]  This, again, is something that Twitter can help the authorities with if they so choose to, or if they're commanded to.
[28:44.400 --> 28:50.280]  I totally didn't agree with what Austin said, said his mother, but I didn't agree with an expulsion either.
[28:50.860 --> 28:57.260]  I mean, if they suspended him for three days or something, I would be fine with that, but to kick him out of school his senior year, three months to go, that is just wrong.
[28:57.420 --> 29:11.220]  You know, I don't think suspending him for a minute is called for if he's using a system that's not the school system and just using language that's got nothing to do with anything the school should be looking at.
[29:11.520 --> 29:14.620]  Does it say if it was during school hours when the tweet went out?
[29:14.900 --> 29:16.100]  You know, I'm looking into this.
[29:16.640 --> 29:17.500]  Okay, yeah.
[29:17.660 --> 29:19.700]  In fact, they address it right here.
[29:19.760 --> 29:26.140]  The principal of Garrett High School said their system tracks all tweets when someone accesses Twitter using a student logon.
[29:26.280 --> 29:30.440]  However, Carroll and his mother both claim the tweets were sent out at approximately 2.30 a.m.
[29:30.460 --> 29:35.020]  Well, this is something that anybody can check just by looking at the account and seeing what time it was posted.
[29:35.560 --> 29:42.280]  I didn't post the thing at school, but their computer is saying that I did post it and I shouldn't be getting in trouble for stuff I did on my own free time on my own computer.
[29:42.360 --> 29:42.600]  You know what?
[29:42.640 --> 29:46.080]  I say even if he did post it from school, there's still not a reason to expel somebody.
[29:46.100 --> 29:52.360]  For God's sake, you only expel people for really serious things, you know, like setting the school alight or something like that.
[29:53.500 --> 29:54.860]  For language, you know?
[29:55.000 --> 29:55.540]  Come on.
[29:55.840 --> 29:56.620]  Where are we now?
[29:56.720 --> 29:57.440]  What did the kid say?
[29:57.800 --> 29:59.100]  You want me to say that on the air?
[29:59.640 --> 30:01.080]  I'll be expelled from here if I do that.
[30:01.080 --> 30:01.760]  Can we get a hint?
[30:03.500 --> 30:07.100]  And was it just like random curse words or was he threatening to hurt someone?
[30:08.540 --> 30:09.080]  Let's see.
[30:09.200 --> 30:09.840]  Okay, here we go.
[30:10.180 --> 30:16.540]  One of my tweets was beep is one of those beep words you can beep put anywhere in a beep sentence and it's still beep makes sense.
[30:18.000 --> 30:18.460]  All right.
[30:18.540 --> 30:18.940]  Yeah, you know what?
[30:18.980 --> 30:19.620]  I've changed my mind.
[30:19.700 --> 30:20.560]  This guy is a real threat.
[30:20.680 --> 30:22.680]  He should be imprisoned as well as expelled.
[30:22.900 --> 30:31.940]  The moral of the story is do not hand out your Facebook and Twitter account IDs to bosses and or school officials.
[30:32.140 --> 30:33.480]  And let me also correct myself.
[30:33.620 --> 30:39.840]  This has nothing to do with Des Moines or anything like that because apparently what I looked at was a reference to a previous case Tinker v.
[30:39.940 --> 30:45.800]  Des Moines Independent Community School District which allows students to express their First Amendment rights inside public school.
[30:46.280 --> 30:49.460]  They are not subject to repression during school hours.
[30:49.980 --> 30:51.480]  Have you been inside a school lately?
[30:51.660 --> 30:58.900]  However, a limited free speech can apply at school sponsored events or when the student is discussing sexual innuendos or illegal drugs.
[30:59.660 --> 31:00.160]  Okay.
[31:00.160 --> 31:05.260]  It just goes to show how insane things are sometimes, right?
[31:06.100 --> 31:07.220]  Tinker v.
[31:07.360 --> 31:08.540]  Des Moines is a very important case.
[31:09.080 --> 31:18.940]  The plaintiffs, I guess Tinker, were got in trouble for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War and the Supreme Court said you can do that at school.
[31:20.120 --> 31:23.380]  But apparently they didn't learn the lesson here in Indiana.
[31:23.620 --> 31:29.920]  Imagine if you were protesting the Vietnam War back then somewhere else and you got expelled from school for doing that.
[31:30.200 --> 31:30.820]  That's even crazier.
[31:31.020 --> 31:31.860]  They didn't even...
[31:31.860 --> 31:33.480]  Des Moines didn't even think of doing that.
[31:33.640 --> 31:33.800]  Yeah.
[31:33.960 --> 31:35.440]  But this is where we are right now.
[31:36.420 --> 31:37.340]  Pretty crazy.
[31:37.700 --> 31:37.860]  Okay.
[31:38.040 --> 31:46.720]  We have joining us on the phone right now Bill Degnan from the Vintage Computer Festival East 8.0.
[31:46.980 --> 31:47.600]  Bill, are you there?
[31:48.140 --> 31:48.800]  Yes, I am.
[31:48.940 --> 31:49.160]  Hello.
[31:49.560 --> 31:50.340]  How are you doing?
[31:50.560 --> 31:55.960]  So now the Vintage Computer Festival is coming up again this spring.
[31:55.960 --> 31:57.420]  You want to tell us when and where?
[31:58.020 --> 31:58.480]  Sure.
[31:58.800 --> 32:07.560]  It's May 5th and May 6th and it's at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey.
[32:08.500 --> 32:20.180]  And for those of you that are interested in getting the details and directions and such you can go to vintage.org and click on the link for the Vintage Computer Festival 8 or you can go to infoage.org.
[32:20.380 --> 32:22.420]  Those two are the web pages.
[32:22.840 --> 32:25.280]  Okay, now you guys have been doing this for quite some time.
[32:25.420 --> 32:29.360]  You want to tell us something about what kind of people show up, what sort of equipment they can expect to see?
[32:29.940 --> 32:33.840]  Well, this is going to be the biggest one yet.
[32:34.080 --> 32:44.120]  This will be the eighth one and we've done at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey the last six of them, I suppose.
[32:44.900 --> 33:05.440]  And there's going to be a large collection of people it's a collection of people that span your hacker types that are interested in people who have been hacking for many years who've had old computers and they've stepped one after the other as time has progressed to today's world but they still work on the old systems.
[33:06.180 --> 33:11.020]  There's historians, there's people who collect computers kind of like a car show.
[33:11.180 --> 33:15.480]  There's those who want the original box and they want all the original software and everything.
[33:15.700 --> 33:23.740]  There are people that are interested in particular manufacturers like the Apple or the Commodore or the IBM or the S100 bus systems and so on.
[33:24.840 --> 33:28.360]  There's technicians, there's people that are interested in getting involved in the hobby.
[33:28.500 --> 33:35.260]  Maybe their father or their grandfather gave them a computer and they heard about this festival they live relatively nearby and they thought they'd just check it out.
[33:36.000 --> 33:40.660]  A lot of times that's the spark that will get somebody really involved in the hobby.
[33:40.960 --> 33:45.700]  And we do have registered guests from all over the world this year as we usually do.
[33:46.460 --> 33:50.720]  coming as far as Australia and there's a number of people coming from the West Coast as well.
[33:51.660 --> 33:54.220]  So now there's a West Coast version of this as well?
[33:54.880 --> 33:57.940]  There was, but there hasn't been one in many years.
[33:58.260 --> 34:04.000]  So this is considered to be probably the biggest one in the world, although I can't speak about the...
[34:04.680 --> 34:18.680]  There was one in England and I believe there was one in Germany or the Netherlands somewhat recently, so I can't speak for how large those are, but probably this is the largest one partly because there is no other large-scale event in California.
[34:19.060 --> 34:27.600]  Now, do you find that interest in vintage computers is increasing over the years or are people starting to forget about these ancient relics?
[34:28.040 --> 34:34.840]  Well, I believe that it's increasing partly because the amount of vintage computers is increasing.
[34:34.840 --> 34:51.840]  Every year, just like with antique automobiles and antique clocks and whatever, antique radios, the number of vintage computers increases because the clicker for what is considered vintage and not vintage moves up by one year every year.
[34:52.020 --> 34:52.960]  So we might...
[34:52.960 --> 34:56.900]  A lot of people consider right now 1989 to be where the cutoff is.
[34:57.120 --> 35:06.200]  So there are people that are interested in computers from the 50s, from the 60s, such as those that are going to see the lecture given by Kirk...
[35:06.200 --> 35:13.460]  I mean, sorry, Kurtz, Thomas Kurtz, who invented BASIC with his co-founder at Dartmouth University.
[35:16.060 --> 35:17.240]  He's going to be there to speak.
[35:17.340 --> 35:19.600]  So there's going to be people who want to meet Thomas Kurtz.
[35:19.680 --> 35:20.180]  He's a legend.
[35:20.480 --> 35:20.960]  Somebody that...
[35:21.540 --> 35:23.500]  One of the two people that invented BASIC.
[35:25.260 --> 35:31.260]  There will be people who will be interested in the newer computers, Apple computers, Apple II, because that's what they had when they were at school.
[35:31.520 --> 35:39.000]  So you have this large collection and variety of people from ages, really between 15 and about 80.
[35:39.260 --> 35:40.440]  It's really that broad.
[35:40.680 --> 35:42.700]  So an Apple II is considered vintage now?
[35:43.300 --> 35:43.700]  Yes.
[35:44.240 --> 35:44.440]  Wow.
[35:44.560 --> 35:46.860]  Bernie, do you remember we used to publish 2600?
[35:46.980 --> 35:48.400]  I think it was on an Apple II, was it not?
[35:48.800 --> 35:54.160]  Yeah, I think you used a Heath Zedith Z100 machine for a while.
[35:54.340 --> 35:56.800]  We did use that, but that was just used for hacking.
[35:57.020 --> 36:02.480]  I mean, it was just used for communication, rather, and we didn't actually publish the magazine using that machine.
[36:03.200 --> 36:04.760]  I still have that machine, in fact.
[36:05.160 --> 36:13.020]  Believe it or not, it was stored in a garage for many years, and when we opened it up, there was actually an abandoned mouse nest inside it.
[36:14.120 --> 36:18.760]  So that's a challenge to get a machine like that up and running again, but we intend to do it at some point.
[36:19.420 --> 36:21.580]  I didn't know that the Heath Zedith 100 had a mouse.
[36:21.820 --> 36:22.080]  It didn't?
[36:22.440 --> 36:23.500]  Yeah, it was an add-on.
[36:23.580 --> 36:25.340]  It was not something that came with the machine.
[36:25.580 --> 36:26.120]  I get it.
[36:26.280 --> 36:26.420]  Yeah.
[36:27.460 --> 36:28.740]  Don't these guys show up?
[36:28.860 --> 36:32.080]  Now, Bill, isn't there a tie-in with the Hope Conference here?
[36:32.600 --> 36:48.220]  And I remember you guys coming to the Hope Conference for the past several years and having an amazing demo, a working demo that people can get their hands on and play with some of these vintage computers, and haven't you given talks at the Hope Conference about this stuff,
[36:48.240 --> 36:48.420]  too?
[36:48.560 --> 36:49.520]  Correct, correct.
[36:49.520 --> 36:50.920]  I have done a few talks.
[36:51.120 --> 36:59.000]  This year, I'm doing one with Evan Koblenz, and it's going to be portable hacks over history, different kinds of...
[37:00.180 --> 37:17.260]  different hack stories about how portable computers were used, hacking in a little bit of a broader term, not just breaking into things, but techniques for and stories behind portable computing and how they were made to work or work with other things.
[37:17.740 --> 37:18.700]  That should be interesting.
[37:19.000 --> 37:21.680]  New things you could do with a portable computer you couldn't do before.
[37:22.580 --> 37:38.020]  We have exhibits, and we're planning on, just like we always, every year, we bring a number of our club members, bring portable, bring whatever kind of vintage computers and demonstrate them that guests that hope can sit down and use them.
[37:38.200 --> 37:44.520]  My intention is to bring a 1959 Donnern 3,500 if I can get the thing up and running.
[37:44.680 --> 37:50.980]  It's an analog computer, and I guess it would be used for calculating trajectories and things like that.
[37:51.120 --> 37:54.440]  So that's going to be my project, hopefully to get that up and running by July.
[37:54.620 --> 37:58.860]  Well, we do need to calculate quite a few trajectories for the conference, so that would be very useful.
[37:59.900 --> 38:08.220]  The talk that Bill and Evan will be giving is entitled Historic Hacks in Portable Computing, and that's going to be definitely one of the highlights of the conference, and of course there will be a display.
[38:08.920 --> 38:10.860]  But that's the Hope Conference coming up in July.
[38:10.860 --> 38:13.160]  You can get more information on that, www.hope.net.
[38:13.300 --> 38:24.940]  But as far as what's happening with the Vintage Computer gathering, the festival, give us the information one more time and maybe a way of getting down there for people from New York and perhaps a website as well.
[38:25.560 --> 38:26.080]  Okay.
[38:26.280 --> 38:40.760]  The website is vintage.org, V-I-N-T-A-G-E dot org, and all the directions and information that a person would need would be available by just clicking on the VCF East, Vintage Computer Festival East 8.0 link.
[38:41.540 --> 38:43.620]  It's going to be in Wall, New Jersey.
[38:44.600 --> 38:48.020]  And I'm not actually from the area, but it's in central New Jersey.
[38:48.020 --> 38:49.840]  It's about an hour west of Trenton.
[38:50.120 --> 39:00.700]  So however you would get to the beach, essentially, I'm sorry, an hour east of Trenton, an hour east of Trenton, off of Interstate 195.
[39:03.800 --> 39:05.640]  And I'm not sure what airport is the closest.
[39:05.900 --> 39:08.820]  You know, I guess I would take Philadelphia, but other people, I guess, would take Newark.
[39:08.920 --> 39:11.580]  So I'm not going to speak for the airlines and such.
[39:11.700 --> 39:14.480]  But that kind of information is available through vintage.org.
[39:14.820 --> 39:16.240]  And Bernie, you said you can get there by train?
[39:16.500 --> 39:18.360]  You can get almost there by train.
[39:18.480 --> 39:19.340]  You just have to walk...
[39:19.340 --> 39:20.340]  You have to walk...
[39:20.340 --> 39:21.760]  Well, you can take like a series of trains.
[39:21.880 --> 39:24.840]  I don't remember the lines, but it's on the website, vintage.org.
[39:24.840 --> 39:31.920]  And you just have to take a nice, beautiful walk where you see the water and so forth for maybe 15 minutes.
[39:32.220 --> 39:34.840]  And so you don't have to own an automobile or an airplane.
[39:35.000 --> 39:36.900]  You can take public transportation there.
[39:37.100 --> 39:38.460]  And, Bill, the date once again?
[39:39.240 --> 39:41.000]  It's May 5th and 6th.
[39:41.580 --> 39:41.980]  Okay.
[39:42.020 --> 39:44.060]  And that's not this weekend, but the weekend following?
[39:44.560 --> 39:45.000]  Correct.
[39:45.160 --> 39:45.420]  Correct.
[39:45.680 --> 39:45.980]  Okay.
[39:46.020 --> 39:49.480]  And you wouldn't have by any chance to know why it's called Wall, New Jersey, would you?
[39:50.000 --> 39:50.740]  Is there a wall there?
[39:50.740 --> 39:52.360]  Well, it's near Brick, New Jersey.
[39:52.600 --> 39:52.940]  No.
[39:53.160 --> 39:53.340]  Really?
[39:54.180 --> 40:03.740]  And they were making the bricks someplace, and so they needed to bring them somewhere, and they stacked them, and they made a wall.
[40:04.400 --> 40:06.580]  American history is just so fascinating sometimes.
[40:06.800 --> 40:07.580]  Well, it's...
[40:07.580 --> 40:09.100]  No, I think I have no idea.
[40:09.380 --> 40:09.620]  Okay.
[40:09.800 --> 40:14.440]  Well, I'm sure we'll have some Wall listeners calling us to...
[40:15.100 --> 40:16.660]  Yeah, and correct us with all that.
[40:16.740 --> 40:21.180]  Bill, best of luck with this, and thanks for updating us, and hopefully we'll be able to make it down there as well.
[40:21.300 --> 40:21.520]  Okay.
[40:21.520 --> 40:22.780]  One other quick note.
[40:23.100 --> 40:24.660]  Bill Hurd will also be there.
[40:24.840 --> 40:40.740]  He's the inventor, the chief engineer for the Commodore C-128, and he'll be there, and I thought I should also mention that Daniel Kotke, who was a friend of Steve Jobs, will be there, and so he's going to talk and do a talk about the Apple III and so on.
[40:40.740 --> 40:41.540]  I've met the guy before.
[40:41.540 --> 40:42.320]  He's a nice guy.
[40:42.560 --> 40:42.820]  Okay.
[40:43.120 --> 40:43.520]  Vintage...
[40:43.520 --> 40:47.780]  There's plenty more than just that, what I just mentioned, but I just thought I'd mention some of those highlights.
[40:47.780 --> 40:53.420]  Vintage.org is the site to get all the information about the Vintage Computer Festival coming up in May.
[40:54.080 --> 40:56.480]  And Bill, best of luck with that and we'll see you at Hope for sure.
[40:57.060 --> 40:57.240]  All right.
[40:57.340 --> 40:58.140]  Well, thank you very much.
[40:58.280 --> 40:58.500]  All right.
[40:58.500 --> 40:58.880]  Have a nice day.
[40:59.020 --> 40:59.340]  Take care.
[41:00.260 --> 41:10.280]  Yeah, it's great having all these events happening, taking place in various parts of the world and as far away as Wall, New Jersey, but that's actually pretty close, so I might try to make it down there.
[41:11.420 --> 41:12.500]  Actually, I can't make it down.
[41:12.540 --> 41:15.840]  I've got the bicycle thing on Sunday, right?
[41:15.940 --> 41:16.880]  It's that weekend, isn't it?
[41:16.980 --> 41:18.160]  The five-barrow ride.
[41:19.080 --> 41:20.060]  Well, maybe I can do both.
[41:20.280 --> 41:20.600]  Who knows?
[41:20.700 --> 41:21.480]  There's always something to do.
[41:21.600 --> 41:23.620]  So all kinds of things to experience.
[41:24.700 --> 41:25.140]  All right.
[41:25.280 --> 41:28.540]  We have listener phone calls we'll be getting to in just a moment.
[41:28.680 --> 41:29.880]  212-209-2900.
[41:30.920 --> 41:32.980]  Let's look at some listener mail.
[41:33.180 --> 41:35.420]  Here's a piece of listener mail I actually would like to get to.
[41:36.420 --> 41:40.560]  This is somebody addressing my online music rant on the last Off the Hook.
[41:40.800 --> 41:42.820]  I was ranting for quite a bit and I apologize for that.
[41:42.900 --> 41:46.380]  But imagine you want to buy MP3s from outside the USA.
[41:46.580 --> 41:48.900]  This is a real pain in the neck.
[41:49.480 --> 41:50.160]  I hear you.
[41:50.260 --> 41:52.580]  I hear you because I experience it in the other direction to a degree.
[41:53.200 --> 42:00.620]  For example, the album Au Naturel by The Satisfaction, spelled all kinds of crazy ways, I listened to one song on the radio.
[42:00.720 --> 42:01.240]  I liked it.
[42:01.360 --> 42:02.340]  I wanted to buy the album.
[42:02.460 --> 42:10.500]  Since it's 2012, I figured the purchase of the album as MP3 files should be easy and cheap enough because it's just a bunch of small files plus everything is globalized.
[42:10.620 --> 42:11.920]  We have free and perfect markets, don't we?
[42:12.400 --> 42:13.380]  I was wrong.
[42:13.560 --> 42:16.120]  Living in Germany at the moment, these are the current prices.
[42:16.500 --> 42:19.900]  To buy the MP3 on Amazon.de, you can't do it.
[42:20.100 --> 42:23.060]  If you want to buy the CD, $20.94.
[42:24.240 --> 42:26.500]  And you can also buy it on vinyl for $23.55.
[42:26.740 --> 42:31.680]  Now, you can go to Amazon.com and buy the MP3 for $5.99.
[42:32.560 --> 42:32.960]  Yeah.
[42:33.340 --> 42:39.020]  Unfortunately, I am not allowed to buy the MP3 via Amazon.com using a German IP address or a German credit card.
[42:39.640 --> 42:43.140]  This item cannot be purchased is the message you will get.
[42:43.300 --> 42:49.620]  We're sorry, but due to concerns regarding sales to certain countries, you will not be able to purchase this gift.
[42:49.840 --> 42:51.100]  It's funny how they assume it's a gift.
[42:51.820 --> 42:58.340]  Besides using a US-based IP, it seems you also have to have a credit card registered with a US-based postal address to be able to buy each MP3.
[42:58.480 --> 43:04.240]  And even if you have all that, you also need a proprietary piece of software called Amazon Downloader to purchase a complete album.
[43:04.460 --> 43:10.900]  But at least I'm able to listen to another The Satisfaction song via the official promo video published by their record company, right?
[43:11.620 --> 43:16.780]  So I went to YouTube.com to watch the video off of Sub Pop Records.
[43:17.160 --> 43:17.700]  Wrong again.
[43:17.860 --> 43:20.040]  YouTube.com is sorry to inform me.
[43:20.160 --> 43:26.800]  Unfortunately, this video is not available in Germany because it may contain music for which GEMA has not granted the respective music rights.
[43:27.020 --> 43:28.020]  Sorry about that.
[43:28.980 --> 43:30.200]  Signed, George there.
[43:30.200 --> 43:32.640]  You know, I'm sorry too.
[43:32.760 --> 43:33.620]  It's embarrassing.
[43:33.900 --> 43:43.240]  There's only one thing that I can help George with and that is there's a free software program called Clams, C-L-A-M-Z so you don't have to run Amazon's proprietary downloader.
[43:43.400 --> 43:44.560]  It doesn't help him in this case though.
[43:44.760 --> 43:45.340]  But it won't help him.
[43:45.420 --> 43:48.540]  It'll only help people who can get there in the first place.
[43:48.820 --> 43:53.800]  This is just extra bizarre to me because I'm sure that band would love to sell their music to somebody who wants to hear it.
[43:53.880 --> 43:54.220]  Of course.
[43:54.600 --> 44:03.880]  When I do artwork and I put it up for sale sometimes and I love selling it to people who want to get hold of it from me and, you know, I don't care where they live because I appreciate their interests.
[44:04.040 --> 44:05.120]  Here's what I don't get.
[44:05.320 --> 44:05.380]  Okay?
[44:05.580 --> 44:08.680]  If an MP3, it's not region coding.
[44:08.780 --> 44:11.100]  This is an attempt to make artificial region coding.
[44:11.780 --> 44:26.040]  Now, if somebody from Germany wants to buy an MP3, an MP3 album that they're not allowed to buy off their store and I buy it for them and they pay me and then I send them the file and presumably erase it on my end, am I breaking a law?
[44:26.040 --> 44:27.320]  And if so, what law am I breaking?
[44:27.340 --> 44:29.220]  And how much sense does that make?
[44:29.860 --> 44:33.880]  Do you want to go to court with a record industry lawyer to find out?
[44:33.940 --> 44:35.400]  I'm going to wind up there any way you know it.
[44:35.480 --> 44:42.900]  So why not just at least test the system and see just what exactly the logic is behind all of this because basically they want to buy something.
[44:43.000 --> 44:52.280]  They want to listen to music which last I heard was still legal and show me where you're not allowed to listen to something in a certain country that's supposedly democratic.
[44:52.440 --> 44:53.620]  I don't see it.
[44:53.620 --> 44:58.980]  So if I buy somebody is it illegal for me to buy them a CD and send them that and they can make MP3s?
[44:59.180 --> 45:00.920]  Kind of getting around the law that way aren't I?
[45:01.180 --> 45:06.440]  This is just an example of how over bureaucratic some portions of our society have really become.
[45:06.620 --> 45:16.820]  This is just about people needing to sign all these sorts of deals to guarantee various forms that they know where they're getting their revenue and it's just silly stuff.
[45:16.840 --> 45:20.500]  You've hit the record executive right on the head with that one and let me give you an example.
[45:20.500 --> 45:29.940]  Another example that I was faced with the last couple of days there's this television program which I happen to think is utter genius and nobody in America understands.
[45:29.940 --> 45:43.440]  It's called Summer Heights High comes from Australia and it's an incredible program I highly recommend it good luck getting it though because obviously it's a different region and who knows if you're even allowed to watch it in this country but they have a soundtrack album.
[45:43.580 --> 46:00.240]  They have a soundtrack album and you know it's not that great a soundtrack album but I still want to have it I'm willing to buy it and I went to Amazon it's not on Amazon it's on Amazon.co.uk the British one and of course I was willing to buy it there but I'm not allowed to buy it.
[46:00.340 --> 46:19.040]  Here's the funny thing you can sample all the songs that are on this you can sample them but you can't buy them and some of the songs are well under 30 seconds long 30 seconds is the amount of time you're allowed to sample a song so you're able to hear all these songs for nothing simply by sampling them.
[46:19.040 --> 46:28.720]  I'm going to give you an example of one of the songs let's play one of the one of the clips from Summer Heights High is this actually going to work?
[46:30.220 --> 46:34.820]  okay I assume that the thing was going to okay let's try that one more time hold on
[46:39.230 --> 46:46.470]  as you can see Amazon doesn't always do what you expect it to let's try it one more time here's here's the sample clip that we're hearing for absolutely nothing
[46:53.870 --> 47:15.030]  that's the entire track right there it's eight seconds long and you know what it goes for 69p because they are so automated and bureaucratic that they don't know how to separate songs by value something that lasts 25 minutes is also going to cost 69p but if you know if you really want to get this this particular song 69p You can download it,
[47:15.310 --> 47:17.550]  but you have to be in Europe.
[47:17.970 --> 47:19.630]  Okay, well, that's another song.
[47:20.270 --> 47:22.710]  There's all kinds of little pieces here.
[47:23.770 --> 47:26.490]  They all go for the same price, but you can't buy them.
[47:26.650 --> 47:27.390]  You can listen to them.
[47:27.490 --> 47:28.890]  You can get free samples.
[47:28.930 --> 47:31.690]  You can hear the whole thing as a free sample, but you can't buy.
[47:31.930 --> 47:32.630]  It's silly.
[47:32.810 --> 47:33.290]  It's stupid.
[47:33.430 --> 47:34.470]  It needs to be changed.
[47:34.690 --> 47:35.910]  Am I insane here?
[47:36.130 --> 47:42.090]  Yeah, and also, you know, I very often bought CDs from other countries and had them imported.
[47:42.090 --> 47:44.110]  But then you have to pay to ship them and stuff.
[47:44.270 --> 47:48.650]  So what is the difference between that and buying an MP3 from another site, from another country, rather?
[47:49.670 --> 47:55.270]  Except that you shouldn't... it should be like any other digital sale where you don't have to pay the shipping and it's more convenient.
[47:55.430 --> 47:57.350]  And the thing is, I've done this.
[47:57.530 --> 48:05.570]  This is something new because a couple of years ago, I had no trouble buying MP3s in other countries from other sites, legally, legitimately.
[48:05.890 --> 48:08.110]  But they changed something to get more control over it.
[48:08.110 --> 48:18.650]  And this time, I don't even think they have law behind them because there is no DMCA restriction, as far as I know, on music, on MP3s, downloading, things like that.
[48:18.770 --> 48:20.370]  There's no region coding on music.
[48:20.570 --> 48:21.690]  No, they just have a cartel.
[48:22.410 --> 48:23.490]  It's very easy.
[48:23.990 --> 48:25.910]  Yeah, and it's being abused.
[48:26.830 --> 48:28.210]  Okay, let's take some phone calls.
[48:28.250 --> 48:30.450]  But first, very quickly, an update on CISPA.
[48:30.450 --> 48:45.350]  We talked about this last week, CISPA being the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act intended to facilitate sharing of information on online threats across different federal agencies and private companies, being criticized by both activists and politicians,
[48:46.090 --> 48:50.210]  both Democrats and Republicans, for vague wording, insufficient safeguards.
[48:50.530 --> 48:55.390]  Basically, it's the next step in control over information, privacy, that kind of thing.
[48:55.390 --> 49:00.250]  Supposedly, the Obama administration is opposed to CISPA.
[49:00.730 --> 49:03.350]  Yeah, that's according to a Hillary Clinton advisor.
[49:03.630 --> 49:10.770]  The president opposes the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act, which is pretty good.
[49:10.870 --> 49:13.370]  According to The Guardian, the Obama administration opposes CISPA.
[49:13.470 --> 49:16.070]  The president has called for comprehensive cybersecurity legislation.
[49:16.440 --> 49:19.710]  There is absolutely a need for comprehensive cybersecurity legislation.
[49:19.710 --> 49:27.510]  But parts of what has been communicated to congressional committees is that we want legislation to come with necessary protections for individuals.
[49:27.950 --> 49:33.110]  So, obviously, we need to stand up and say, yeah, this is exactly the case.
[49:34.170 --> 49:36.530]  Oppose this, and you'll have our support.
[49:37.250 --> 49:39.670]  You know, sign on to this, and you won't, right?
[49:39.670 --> 49:50.210]  The Obama administration, though, has shown, as with plenty of previous administrations, that their standards for comprehensive privacy protections for individuals do not meet my standards.
[49:50.310 --> 49:51.090]  Okay, okay, okay.
[49:51.390 --> 49:52.970]  I mean, you're going to go down this road.
[49:53.130 --> 49:56.410]  But on this particular case, can we support them on this?
[49:58.450 --> 50:03.350]  If the bill passes and they veto it, then I'll be impressed.
[50:03.990 --> 50:15.750]  I suspect that what will happen is they'll try and get some, like, concessions so that they'll say that there are privacy protections and that those privacy protections will not actually protect anyone's privacy.
[50:15.830 --> 50:16.690]  Well, then we'll oppose that as well.
[50:16.710 --> 50:26.970]  But in this particular case, I just think we need to, you know, stand with people that are against something that we don't like and make sure that it doesn't ever come to the point of being passed.
[50:26.970 --> 50:39.470]  Well, yes, we should, because if we don't support them in opposing such legislation, then they may be more passive and let it go by, and then we'd end up with laws we don't like.
[50:39.610 --> 50:49.350]  But what really annoys me is the fact that this is still being pushed after PIPA and SOPA were all, you know, stomped out because of public opinion.
[50:49.350 --> 50:49.910]  It's never going to stop.
[50:50.030 --> 50:51.010]  It's never going to end.
[50:51.010 --> 51:00.250]  This is supposedly supposed to be something that vaguely resembles a democracy, yet when two bills in a row get stomped out by public opinion, they just push the next one through.
[51:00.250 --> 51:04.770]  Because the public gets weary of all this, and eventually they stop trying, and they count on that.
[51:04.830 --> 51:06.090]  That's how everything happens.
[51:06.690 --> 51:11.510]  So, yeah, we have to constantly remain vigilant and keep looking at EFF.
[51:11.710 --> 51:17.530]  Go to their site and see what's coming down the pike and know what your rights are and know what to oppose.
[51:17.530 --> 51:25.670]  And speaking of that, this is the last week, I believe, where you'll be able to support EFF by buying your HOPE tickets, www.hope.net.
[51:26.070 --> 51:32.270]  10% of every sale goes to the Electronic Frontier Foundation, probably one of the most vital organizations around today.
[51:32.530 --> 51:33.950]  So spread the word.
[51:34.330 --> 51:42.570]  You'll get to go to an amazing conference and support one of the most important civil rights organizations that exist in this day.
[51:43.110 --> 51:45.250]  All right, 212-209-2900.
[51:45.330 --> 51:45.470]  Mike?
[51:45.470 --> 51:50.610]  I just want people to know that there was a hearing today and yesterday and tomorrow in the Bradley Manning case.
[51:50.930 --> 51:54.250]  Bradley Manning accused of giving all those documents to WikiLeaks.
[51:55.090 --> 51:58.550]  The defense is trying to get the charges reduced or dropped.
[51:58.730 --> 51:59.630]  We'll see if they succeed.
[51:59.830 --> 52:05.470]  But meanwhile, the judge has ruled that no, the media cannot have access to just about any information in the case.
[52:06.010 --> 52:11.650]  And they really want to do this under as much secrecy as possible because I guess they know what people will think.
[52:12.110 --> 52:13.730]  Okay, Julian, you know what you have to do now.
[52:14.370 --> 52:14.670]  All right.
[52:15.830 --> 52:17.290]  212-209-2900.
[52:17.410 --> 52:17.730]  Good evening.
[52:17.910 --> 52:18.910]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:19.690 --> 52:20.510]  Yeah, hi there.
[52:20.750 --> 52:21.450]  Hi, what's on your mind?
[52:22.130 --> 52:27.330]  Okay, the FBI supposedly was protecting the Internet against people who are going to take over your computers.
[52:27.410 --> 52:36.660]  And if you don't go to a government website, they're saying that your computer may be infected and they have to uninfect it at the government website.
[52:37.130 --> 52:42.750]  Yeah, this smacks of something that's not at all true, right?
[52:42.750 --> 52:47.490]  Well, I won't rely on the government decontaminating my computer, that's for sure.
[52:48.030 --> 52:54.530]  But it's www.dcwg.org, and that's the government's website they want everybody to go to.
[52:54.530 --> 52:58.050]  If it was a government website, it would be .gov, not .org.
[52:58.430 --> 53:03.190]  But I'm sure anybody that visits that website now will have a fun time disinfecting their computers.
[53:03.310 --> 53:04.590]  Thanks very much for that.
[53:04.610 --> 53:05.470]  Let's go to another phone call.
[53:05.550 --> 53:05.770]  Good evening.
[53:05.890 --> 53:06.590]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:08.490 --> 53:09.130]  Speak up.
[53:09.270 --> 53:09.550]  Hello?
[53:10.830 --> 53:11.090]  Hello?
[53:12.570 --> 53:13.010]  Phone!
[53:13.350 --> 53:14.510]  What, you take a field trip?
[53:14.630 --> 53:15.070]  Come on.
[53:15.290 --> 53:15.610]  Hello?
[53:15.950 --> 53:16.230]  Yes.
[53:16.570 --> 53:17.130]  Hey, how you doing?
[53:17.190 --> 53:17.670]  What's going on?
[53:20.390 --> 53:22.650]  Yeah, Voyager CD-ROMs.
[53:24.190 --> 53:27.510]  Is there any way to play them on a PC?
[53:27.850 --> 53:29.090]  What is a Voyager CD...
[53:29.090 --> 53:30.070]  All right, lay off the touchdowns.
[53:30.090 --> 53:31.350]  What is a Voyager CD-ROMs?
[53:31.370 --> 53:31.790]  Anybody know?
[53:32.290 --> 53:38.790]  These were really beautiful, you know, pre-recorded...
[53:39.350 --> 53:45.890]  You know, there were CD-ROMs like on Shakespeare, and it was put out by a company called Voyager.
[53:46.010 --> 54:01.610]  They were bought by Criterion, and they're, you know, they're interactive, but they're, you know, CD-ROMs in that they're sort of like, you know, it's recorded material, but it won't...
[54:01.610 --> 54:05.830]  It doesn't play on my Windows XP, and I was just wondering if you guys...
[54:05.830 --> 54:07.090]  Windows XP?
[54:07.370 --> 54:09.250]  Okay, well, Bernie, can you answer this question?
[54:09.650 --> 54:16.130]  I thought he was referring to the optical media that was sent on a spacecraft by NASA.
[54:16.410 --> 54:18.030]  Why would he be trying to read that?
[54:18.410 --> 54:19.690]  Well, because it was really amazing.
[54:20.830 --> 54:22.850]  He was far away at the beginning, not that far away.
[54:23.170 --> 54:23.990]  It's not the Voyager spacecraft.
[54:24.670 --> 54:26.770]  It's the Voyager with the name of the company.
[54:26.790 --> 54:29.010]  Yeah, it's not a very imaginative name, is it, but...
[54:29.610 --> 54:42.270]  They put out beautiful collections of CD-ROMs that were, you know, it says systems requirements 486, SX-33 or higher.
[54:42.710 --> 54:43.870]  Well, get it in your computer.
[54:43.990 --> 54:45.030]  And they were also playable on...
[54:45.030 --> 54:46.410]  These were from the 90s.
[54:46.550 --> 54:48.050]  I mean, I thought you...
[54:49.170 --> 54:54.250]  I seem to be baffling you, which I'm totally surprised at, but...
[54:54.250 --> 54:55.310]  It was a long time ago.
[54:55.310 --> 55:04.050]  Well, Voyager was a great provider of what we used to call shovelware, which was the CD-ROMs that you got shoveled into the box when you bought a new computer back in, like, the 90s.
[55:04.070 --> 55:05.350]  It was also a mediocre TV show, too.
[55:05.670 --> 55:11.230]  Yeah, and what they used to do was take a lot of public domain material, like NASA stuff and Shakespeare and that.
[55:11.710 --> 55:17.550]  But if you want to get hold of that sort of material, it's all actually out there on the internet now for you to get hold of.
[55:17.630 --> 55:18.690]  NASA has their photos online.
[55:18.710 --> 55:20.510]  There's plenty of sites that have Shakespeare online.
[55:20.990 --> 55:25.650]  So, you know, throw in a couple of web searches for what you're looking for, and you'll probably find them in better quality than you have on that CD.
[55:25.650 --> 55:27.270]  I think he wants it from his CD-R, though.
[55:27.450 --> 55:30.850]  But the thing is, I bet if you go to the Vintage Computer Festival, somebody there will know how to do this.
[55:30.930 --> 55:32.210]  But thanks for that phone call.
[55:32.530 --> 55:33.130]  Let's take another phone call.
[55:33.170 --> 55:33.430]  Good evening.
[55:33.550 --> 55:34.290]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:35.410 --> 55:35.970]  Oh, dear.
[55:36.230 --> 55:37.490]  That's always sad when that happens.
[55:37.570 --> 55:38.170]  Someone gave up.
[55:38.550 --> 55:40.830]  Our number is 212-209-2900.
[55:40.990 --> 55:44.790]  We've only got a couple minutes left, and then we're doing fundraising for the next month.
[55:44.830 --> 55:46.630]  So if you have something to say, say it now.
[55:46.710 --> 55:46.970]  Good evening.
[55:47.070 --> 55:47.670]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:47.910 --> 55:48.190]  Hi.
[55:48.250 --> 55:48.830]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[55:48.830 --> 55:49.590]  This is New Line.
[55:49.590 --> 55:59.830]  I mean, forgive me if you guys talked about this already, but if anybody was at the Jacob Applebaum seminar at the Whitney with the former NSA agent...
[55:59.830 --> 56:00.330]  I was there.
[56:00.390 --> 56:00.850]  So was Mike.
[56:01.670 --> 56:07.250]  Boy, how upsetting was it when Jacob said, look, I need you guys to know I'm never committing suicide.
[56:07.390 --> 56:10.610]  I mean, this is the point we've gone to, and it's just very upsetting.
[56:10.610 --> 56:13.090]  Well, yeah, you do have to make that clear sometimes, I guess.
[56:13.310 --> 56:15.970]  Of course, you can never change your mind either, but...
[56:15.970 --> 56:21.230]  The Godfather would, you know, if some accident or some bolt of lightning should hit me, you know, I'm going to blame you people.
[56:21.330 --> 56:23.190]  Well, because things happen.
[56:23.190 --> 56:31.290]  When people are dealing with sensitive information and pissing off very powerful people, you have to be a bit paranoid, and that's just an unfortunate reality.
[56:31.670 --> 56:32.630]  Hey, we're out of time.
[56:33.510 --> 56:36.590]  So thanks, everybody, for calling in and for writing in.
[56:36.590 --> 56:39.310]  And please keep listening to this radio station.
[56:39.430 --> 56:42.650]  Remember to listen next week when we'll be giving away all kinds of fun things.
[56:43.510 --> 56:46.190]  Our email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[56:46.330 --> 56:46.530]  Good night.
[56:46.690 --> 56:53.970]  It's come to my attention about these new light laws, and it's my recommendation that we should stay indoors.
[56:54.490 --> 56:57.550]  We all need policing if we call a cop around.
[56:58.070 --> 57:01.510]  We're all going to jail or the mental home.
[57:01.510 --> 57:09.030]  We have to be careful about who we are let, cause what they seem to not know amounts to Nick Clare.
[57:09.350 --> 57:12.870]  We all need the system to sometimes work for us.
[57:13.090 --> 57:16.590]  Coming in by ambulance and commandeered bus.
[57:16.750 --> 57:20.230]  There's bills to be paid and criminal bills.
[57:20.430 --> 57:23.770]  They're only interested in filling their tills.
[57:25.050 --> 57:27.690]  Marginalised and sent to the back.
[57:27.970 --> 57:31.210]  Do what you're told or get the sack.
[57:31.510 --> 57:38.410]  The system doesn't work for us, and that is a fact.
[57:38.750 --> 57:45.430]  If the system doesn't work for us, then we should take it back.
[57:46.710 --> 57:52.870]  As for good causes and charity, let's start with the state.
[57:52.870 --> 58:00.410]  And if it's not a priority, it's probably too late.
[58:01.210 --> 58:08.050]  And all the human reservoirs are trying to get a life.
[58:08.050 --> 58:15.350]  Just a little rain would do instead of so much strife.
[58:16.270 --> 58:23.810]  If bills to be paid and criminal bills, they're only interested in filling their tills.
[58:24.910 --> 58:27.690]  Marginalised and sent to the back.
[58:27.990 --> 58:31.330]  Do what you're told or get the sack.
[58:31.330 --> 58:38.030]  The system doesn't work for us, yet we pay our tax.
[58:38.610 --> 58:45.410]  If the system doesn't work for us, then we should take it back.
[58:45.410 --> 58:52.890]  Do you think there's ample time to do your turn so cutely?
[58:54.030 --> 59:00.330]  Remember that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
[59:16.100 --> 59:20.100]  So ban all the bones and represent what I say.
[59:20.380 --> 59:23.760]  Cause it's not your life and you are giving away.
[59:23.760 --> 59:27.620]  The system is broken and we're not insured.
[59:27.960 --> 59:31.130]  We got no receipt and it was made abroad.
[59:31.840 --> 59:35.140]  They're supposed to be paid and criminal bills.
[59:35.440 --> 59:38.840]  They're only interested in filling their tills.
[59:39.960 --> 59:42.620]  Marginalised and sent to the back.
[59:43.240 --> 59:46.340]  Do what you're told or get the sack.
[59:46.660 --> 59:53.180]  The system doesn't work for us, and that is a fact.
[59:53.180 --> 01:00:00.400]  If the system doesn't work for us, then we should take it back.
[01:00:01.160 --> 01:00:08.280]  The system doesn't work for us, and that is a fact.
[01:00:08.640 --> 01:00:15.360]  If the system doesn't work for us, we should take it back.
[01:00:15.640 --> 01:00:15.900]  Woo!
[01:00:16.940 --> 01:00:18.720]  Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:21.260]  You're listening to WBAI, New York 99.5 FM.