[00:00.000 --> 00:03.620]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-4-1.
[00:03.860 --> 00:07.280]  That's 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-4-1.
[00:07.500 --> 00:10.700]  Can't wait to see you there to set the fall off right.
[00:11.120 --> 00:14.240]  99.5 WBAI.
[00:20.160 --> 00:21.300]  Yo, check this out.
[00:21.350 --> 00:27.480]  This is Chuck, the Republic Enemy, number one, the rapper without a pause, bringing the noise and fighting the power right here to the Sights and Sound.
[00:27.580 --> 00:30.520]  That's right, Sights, 99.5 WBAI.
[00:34.210 --> 00:37.630]  And it's 7 o'clock, and you are listening to WBAI New York.
[00:37.810 --> 00:40.290]  It's time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:33.130 --> 02:34.790]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:34.890 --> 02:36.210]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:36.350 --> 02:37.370]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:37.370 --> 02:38.910]  Yes, I'm here on time this week.
[02:38.990 --> 02:39.510]  Imagine that.
[02:39.950 --> 02:41.210]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:41.450 --> 02:42.390]  I'm also here on time.
[02:42.530 --> 02:43.690]  Yeah, well, you're always here on time.
[02:43.910 --> 02:44.090]  Huh.
[02:44.750 --> 02:45.610]  And Rob T.
[02:45.730 --> 02:46.030]  Firefly?
[02:46.290 --> 02:47.290]  I might be here on time.
[02:47.590 --> 02:48.630]  Bernie S., somewhere?
[02:48.890 --> 02:49.990]  I'm in Pennsylvania time.
[02:50.150 --> 02:50.550]  All right.
[02:50.710 --> 02:52.570]  Well, we're all here on time, which is amazing.
[02:53.170 --> 02:54.210]  But we don't know.
[02:54.290 --> 02:55.350]  Someone could still show up.
[02:55.530 --> 02:59.150]  Yeah, well, we locked the door, so that's not going to have an easy time getting in.
[02:59.670 --> 03:02.150]  But, you know, the fates were against me.
[03:02.330 --> 03:07.150]  I was on the downtown 6 platform, not on the downtown 6.
[03:07.410 --> 03:17.570]  And, you know, those little signs that we now have in New York City, the ones they've had in London since the 18th century, that say when the train is coming, all it said was 6 delay.
[03:18.130 --> 03:19.790]  And underneath that, it said 3 minutes.
[03:19.910 --> 03:20.910]  I don't know how to interpret that.
[03:21.390 --> 03:22.890]  And, you know, I will say this.
[03:22.990 --> 03:27.110]  They have an announcement now on the station platform, which is very succinct and very clear.
[03:27.110 --> 03:29.250]  And for some reason, it's in a British accent.
[03:29.310 --> 03:30.570]  Or it sounds like it's in a British accent.
[03:30.670 --> 03:32.930]  Maybe that's just what clear pronunciation sounds like.
[03:34.310 --> 03:40.590]  But the crux of the matter is that they canceled the downtown 6 train because one of them stalled up on 14th Street.
[03:40.850 --> 03:50.010]  So they were telling people with this announcement to go on the other platform, go uptown, get a downtown 4 or 5 on the express track, and bypass the station that I was at.
[03:50.690 --> 03:56.670]  Now, you know, the question is, when you cross the street and go back inside the subway, you've already paid, so what do you do then?
[03:57.410 --> 04:03.290]  Well, what you do is you go to the guy at the token booth clerk station, and you hand him your card.
[04:03.290 --> 04:07.230]  He checks to make sure that you actually paid on the other side, and then he lets you in for free.
[04:07.690 --> 04:12.890]  But if that guy's not there, if they budget cut him out of the picture, what do you do then?
[04:12.970 --> 04:14.190]  You know, that's the question I have.
[04:14.770 --> 04:17.610]  So that was my challenge today, getting here.
[04:17.750 --> 04:24.010]  What you do then is you take the secret passage from the conservatory, and then you do not pass go.
[04:25.490 --> 04:34.890]  Well, you know, if it had been the other way around, if I was trying to go uptown and that 6 got canceled and I had to go to the other side where they don't have a token clerk, I would have hopped a turnstile.
[04:34.970 --> 04:35.550]  It's no other choice.
[04:35.890 --> 04:37.750]  You know, sometimes you have to do that.
[04:37.850 --> 04:39.070]  Sometimes it's the right thing to do.
[04:40.130 --> 04:44.310]  Okay, we are sweating to death in here because for some reason, again, the air conditioning's not working.
[04:44.310 --> 04:47.670]  So this noise, yeah, that's the fan.
[04:48.410 --> 04:48.970]  Hear that?
[04:49.070 --> 04:50.890]  That's, it's really uncomfortable.
[04:50.890 --> 04:52.010]  It worked last week, right?
[04:52.230 --> 04:53.330]  It worked last week, yeah.
[04:53.370 --> 04:59.370]  As I recall, when I ran in here after getting through the floods, at least the studio was cool.
[04:59.510 --> 05:01.590]  But now I'm on time and the studio is...
[05:01.590 --> 05:02.850]  Maybe it only works when it's raining.
[05:03.470 --> 05:04.470]  Yeah, yeah.
[05:05.490 --> 05:07.670]  So, okay, but we're all here.
[05:07.870 --> 05:08.550]  That's the important thing.
[05:08.650 --> 05:13.790]  And we have an action-packed show for you tonight with updates on a number of news items.
[05:13.790 --> 05:16.350]  And we'll be taking phone calls a little bit later on.
[05:17.270 --> 05:18.550]  You guys have anything?
[05:18.870 --> 05:20.110]  Rob, it looks like you have something to say.
[05:20.350 --> 05:21.190]  Yeah, something...
[05:21.190 --> 05:24.070]  I've accomplished something this past week which you might be interested in.
[05:24.250 --> 05:24.390]  Okay.
[05:24.750 --> 05:25.970]  I got a landline installed.
[05:26.990 --> 05:28.930]  Is it just because of what we were saying on the radio?
[05:29.170 --> 05:30.190]  Not just because of that.
[05:30.450 --> 05:32.270]  You felt guilty and wanted to get a landline?
[05:32.350 --> 05:33.410]  Yeah, I can't take credit for it.
[05:33.450 --> 05:35.130]  One of my roommates was the driving force behind it.
[05:35.230 --> 05:43.570]  But the long and the short of the matter is there is now a phone in my apartment which actually connects to copper and has a dial tone.
[05:43.790 --> 05:48.790]  You realize though that the copper is only like you know, whatever, a few thousand feet and then it connects to a fiber optic.
[05:49.350 --> 05:49.590]  Mm-hmm.
[05:49.850 --> 05:53.350]  Are you saying that makes it the same quality as a cell phone?
[05:53.510 --> 05:56.570]  I'm just saying like copper not so much of it anymore.
[05:56.750 --> 05:57.370]  Yeah, but the point...
[05:57.370 --> 05:59.630]  I mean, a fiber optic connection is just fine and dandy.
[06:00.550 --> 06:01.430]  You have...
[06:01.430 --> 06:09.030]  I mean, Bernie, you can probably speak hours about the quality of the voice signal over that kind of a method as opposed to wireless, right?
[06:09.030 --> 06:09.870]  It's better.
[06:10.770 --> 06:12.470]  I was hoping to say more than just that.
[06:12.710 --> 06:13.350]  Well, it's just way better.
[06:13.550 --> 06:14.670]  It's just like...
[06:14.670 --> 06:15.250]  You don't...
[06:15.250 --> 06:17.210]  You're not suffering the vagaries of a...
[06:17.210 --> 06:18.010]  Of a...
[06:18.010 --> 06:18.630]  Of a...
[06:18.630 --> 06:20.070]  Of a inconsistent radio connection.
[06:21.550 --> 06:22.030]  The...
[06:22.030 --> 06:22.930]  The...
[06:22.930 --> 06:24.210]  It is a digital...
[06:24.210 --> 06:25.050]  Even though it sounds like...
[06:25.050 --> 06:26.930]  It seems like an analog phone line.
[06:27.190 --> 06:29.090]  It is converted at...
[06:29.090 --> 06:30.310]  Like where the...
[06:30.310 --> 06:34.950]  Where the copper hits the fiber it is converted to a digital signal but at a very much...
[06:34.950 --> 06:39.510]  A very higher digital bit stream than your cell phones are allotted.
[06:40.970 --> 06:45.170]  And I'm a little curious how long the batteries last at the junction point where the...
[06:45.170 --> 06:46.870]  Where the copper meets the fiber.
[06:47.070 --> 06:48.030]  How long do you...
[06:48.030 --> 06:51.030]  Can you still use the phone when the power goes out?
[06:51.390 --> 06:57.790]  Well, I imagine they have backup generators that'll kick in and keep it going for quite some time.
[06:57.790 --> 07:03.350]  We'd have to knock out the power for a number of days, I would imagine, to see the answer to that question, Bernie.
[07:03.350 --> 07:04.390]  Well, that's not...
[07:04.390 --> 07:08.810]  No, what Mike was just making a point of that it's only a few thousand feet, it may...
[07:08.810 --> 07:10.450]  There may be a copper...
[07:10.450 --> 07:14.270]  Where the copper hits the fiber may be before it gets to the central office.
[07:14.890 --> 07:15.650]  And at that...
[07:15.650 --> 07:18.050]  You know, at the central office, yes, they have big generators and all that.
[07:18.130 --> 07:24.110]  In fact, if you look at any central office building, if you look on the side of the building or on the top, there's always like this...
[07:24.110 --> 07:28.390]  I think it looks like a giant muffler with an exhaust pipe coming out of it.
[07:28.830 --> 07:31.130]  That's the exhaust for the generator.
[07:31.330 --> 07:31.950]  They all have them.
[07:31.950 --> 07:35.790]  And by central office, you mean telephone company, central office.
[07:36.050 --> 07:39.890]  And by telephone company, we mean one of the original bell companies.
[07:39.930 --> 07:41.330]  In our case, it would be Verizon.
[07:41.590 --> 07:43.530]  They're generally brick buildings without windows.
[07:43.970 --> 07:49.530]  And you should know where your local central office is for landlines, for your local telephone company.
[07:49.790 --> 07:49.930]  Yep.
[07:50.390 --> 07:56.870]  So, okay, so you're saying that where the copper meets the fiber optic, that happens before it gets to the central office?
[07:57.030 --> 07:57.490]  It may.
[07:57.730 --> 08:03.810]  They may be one of these little underground vaults, and in which case, they may not be a generator per se there.
[08:03.910 --> 08:05.070]  It could be just a bank of batteries.
[08:05.670 --> 08:15.570]  If your copper phone line runs right to the central office, which in many cases is the case, there's diesel generators that, like you said, will probably run for days.
[08:16.330 --> 08:26.690]  But if, like Mike says, sometimes it doesn't reach all the way to the central office, it converts the fiber before that, then your mileage may vary.
[08:26.730 --> 08:30.690]  You may only get, I don't know, a few hours, depending on how long the power outage is.
[08:31.070 --> 08:39.050]  But in any case, your quality of your phone signal and your audio would always be much better on a copper wire line phone line.
[08:39.110 --> 08:40.990]  And you are not speaking to us on one of those right now.
[08:41.010 --> 08:42.430]  No, I am actually.
[08:42.430 --> 08:46.190]  I'm speaking on a cordless phone, but it's connected to a copper phone line where I am.
[08:46.350 --> 08:46.730]  I'm not home.
[08:46.830 --> 08:47.210]  Oh, okay.
[08:47.470 --> 08:47.790]  All right.
[08:47.990 --> 08:49.110]  I'm somewhere else in Pennsylvania.
[08:49.110 --> 08:52.570]  But yes, so I probably sound better than I do on my Sprint phone.
[08:53.210 --> 08:53.650]  Okay.
[08:54.070 --> 08:56.070]  Well, now, one more question and then we'll move on.
[08:56.630 --> 09:04.070]  Now, you say that if the line switches to fiber optic, then the power issue becomes a potential problem.
[09:05.010 --> 09:05.770]  Why is that?
[09:05.810 --> 09:08.250]  Is it because fiber optic requires power?
[09:08.570 --> 09:10.950]  Well, not really.
[09:11.070 --> 09:28.910]  No, because typically your phone line, the 48 volts that goes to your, or the six volts, I'm sorry, the six volts that's carried to your phone, telephone, from the central office over a pair of wires cannot be carried over fiber.
[09:29.190 --> 09:29.330]  Okay.
[09:29.330 --> 09:34.470]  Copper carries electricity, but you cannot send electricity through a glass fiber.
[09:34.610 --> 09:36.030]  It doesn't, it's not an electrical conductor.
[09:36.530 --> 09:43.430]  So, your phone is powered by the, by the six volts that comes from the central office.
[09:43.550 --> 09:44.950]  Yeah, a lot of people don't think about this.
[09:45.210 --> 09:53.530]  Your phone rings, something has to give it power to make that ring, or a phone might light up, something has to be given, it's not the electric company giving you that power.
[09:54.150 --> 09:54.390]  Yep.
[09:54.390 --> 10:13.530]  So, to answer your question, if you're, if there's, if it converts to fiber before it gets to the central office, they're going to have to have a source of power at the point where the fiber starts, connects to the copper, you know, down a few blocks down the road in one of these underground vaults or something.
[10:13.770 --> 10:18.690]  So, I was just speculating initially in this conversation how long those batteries last.
[10:18.690 --> 10:29.770]  I know the ones at the central office last for days, and they've got a backup generator, but they may not have, if they certainly don't have as big a bank of batteries or a great big generator in one of these small underground vaults.
[10:30.350 --> 10:30.510]  Okay.
[10:30.570 --> 10:37.690]  Well, next power failure, we're definitely going to be going around taking notes at various, various strategic points in the city to see just how long things last.
[10:37.710 --> 10:39.950]  We'll call Rob and see if he answers.
[10:40.270 --> 10:40.590]  Yeah, absolutely.
[10:40.810 --> 10:42.710]  And I will sound fantastic.
[10:42.830 --> 10:45.770]  Well, welcome to the world of landlines.
[10:46.030 --> 10:47.110]  You've had one before, though.
[10:47.250 --> 10:48.450]  Yes, it's nice to be back.
[10:48.450 --> 10:50.610]  Yeah, and landlines are...
[10:50.610 --> 10:51.830]  It's a good thing to have.
[10:51.930 --> 10:57.310]  For the most part, they stay up when other things go down, so it's a bit comforting.
[10:58.030 --> 11:01.930]  Okay, you know, we just watched something kind of interesting here from our Wall Street studios.
[11:02.030 --> 11:04.710]  We saw Obama arrive by helicopter.
[11:05.310 --> 11:08.790]  Basically, there's five helicopters now parked outside our window.
[11:09.190 --> 11:18.090]  We saw two land right away and a bunch of people get out and then all these cars went up the FDR drive and I figured that he was in the first bunch of cars.
[11:18.430 --> 11:19.730]  You know what the last...
[11:19.730 --> 11:22.250]  I'm going to ask people this if they care to guess.
[11:22.330 --> 11:25.730]  What the last vehicle in the procession...
[11:26.390 --> 11:31.670]  Basically, the first one was a police car and there were a couple of other big SUV-type vehicles.
[11:31.790 --> 11:34.510]  I imagine Obama or his staff were in one of those.
[11:34.630 --> 11:39.170]  But what do you suppose the very last vehicle in that train of cars was?
[11:39.530 --> 11:40.410]  Bernie, you first.
[11:41.750 --> 11:42.730]  I have a question.
[11:43.050 --> 11:44.050]  You have a question?
[11:44.190 --> 11:45.570]  Okay, I was asking you a question, but go ahead.
[11:45.950 --> 11:47.210]  Does that vehicle...
[11:47.210 --> 11:48.150]  It's related.
[11:48.450 --> 11:49.790]  Does that last vehicle have a...
[11:49.790 --> 11:51.270]  sprouting a whole bunch of antennas?
[11:51.710 --> 11:57.150]  Okay, you know, if I tell you something like that, I'm telling you information that you should be telling me.
[11:57.350 --> 11:59.730]  Why don't you guess and I'll tell you if you're right later.
[12:00.030 --> 12:17.450]  If that vehicle you're describing is sprouting like way more antennas like a porcupine than any other vehicle in the convoy, then it's the one operated by the National Security Agency under cover of the White House and what it has is mobile jammers.
[12:17.450 --> 12:29.450]  It jams potential remote detonators from improvised explosive device terrorist wielding people and it does a lot of other things.
[12:29.610 --> 12:33.150]  It monitors everything going on, the radio spectrum around the president.
[12:33.590 --> 12:34.610]  It's just...
[12:34.610 --> 12:36.670]  It's an amazing piece of radio technology.
[12:36.870 --> 12:43.110]  That's really fascinating and it just shows that you really know your stuff but you could not be more wrong on this.
[12:43.770 --> 12:48.150]  That vehicle may very well have been in the convoy but it was not the last vehicle in the convoy.
[12:48.230 --> 12:49.450]  Mike, would you get a guess?
[12:49.870 --> 12:50.490]  A tank.
[12:51.330 --> 12:52.970]  A tank going up the FDR drive.
[12:53.050 --> 12:54.710]  Do you really think that road can handle a tank?
[12:55.450 --> 12:56.350]  We could find out.
[12:56.450 --> 12:56.550]  No.
[12:56.650 --> 12:58.050]  First of all, a tank couldn't go that fast.
[12:58.150 --> 12:59.590]  They were going about 50 miles an hour.
[12:59.770 --> 13:01.230]  So, no.
[13:01.370 --> 13:02.390]  You want to give a real guess?
[13:02.610 --> 13:03.530]  That was my real guess.
[13:03.550 --> 13:04.430]  That's not a real guess.
[13:04.490 --> 13:05.190]  I don't accept it.
[13:05.290 --> 13:08.070]  So, what kind of vehicle do you think was the last vehicle in the convoy?
[13:08.210 --> 13:08.870]  A limousine?
[13:09.190 --> 13:09.990]  A limousine.
[13:10.090 --> 13:11.190]  Well, that's a good guess.
[13:11.330 --> 13:13.450]  A kind of boring guess but no, it's not a limousine either.
[13:13.630 --> 13:13.970]  Rob?
[13:15.110 --> 13:16.550]  The presidential ice cream truck?
[13:17.110 --> 13:20.650]  You know, I think that you're just not taking this seriously and I really...
[13:20.650 --> 13:21.170]  serious business.
[13:21.350 --> 13:25.130]  No, I don't think any ice cream truck can go 50 miles an hour on the FDR drive.
[13:25.170 --> 13:30.550]  Plus, not only that, it's a commercial vehicle and commercial vehicles are not allowed on the FDR drive so it's wrong for two reasons.
[13:31.130 --> 13:32.190]  So, please, a serious guess.
[13:32.390 --> 13:34.070]  The president's limo is not a commercial vehicle?
[13:34.070 --> 13:34.830]  No, it's not.
[13:35.250 --> 13:36.230]  It's a livery.
[13:36.450 --> 13:37.350]  Is it a livery or a livery?
[13:37.490 --> 13:44.210]  I don't know, but if the president had his own ice cream truck that would not sell to members of the general public, I don't know if that would be a commercial vehicle or not.
[13:44.290 --> 13:45.730]  Please move off the subject of ice cream.
[13:45.810 --> 13:46.910]  It's got nothing to do with any of this.
[13:46.910 --> 13:47.570]  It's really warm in here.
[13:48.250 --> 13:51.710]  Yeah, that's wonderful and all we need is sticky ice cream to make us feel more refreshed.
[13:51.890 --> 13:53.590]  No, Rob, a serious guess, please.
[13:54.650 --> 13:57.930]  I would guess some kind of spooky van with scary people inside.
[13:58.930 --> 14:03.330]  What's kind of interesting is the two of you were there by the window too, and if you had been looking more carefully...
[14:03.330 --> 14:06.450]  No, I went in the other room to discuss important business with station personnel.
[14:06.570 --> 14:09.490]  Okay, but that room also has a big window that looks out over...
[14:09.490 --> 14:10.610]  Well, any event.
[14:10.750 --> 14:13.110]  Okay, so neither of you noticed what the last vehicle was.
[14:13.190 --> 14:16.770]  The last vehicle was an NYPD tow truck.
[14:17.850 --> 14:19.250]  That's the vehicle that they...
[14:19.250 --> 14:23.510]  I guess because if Obama's limousine breaks down, they want to be able to tow it immediately.
[14:24.510 --> 14:25.650]  And I just...
[14:25.650 --> 14:26.710]  I was kind of surprised by that.
[14:27.050 --> 14:33.310]  There were just maybe about eight vehicles moving at high speed, fairly high speed, and the last one in the convoy was a tow truck.
[14:33.870 --> 14:35.350]  So that's just something to keep in mind.
[14:36.270 --> 14:42.950]  Okay, so that's a little bit of news for you that's happening right here in New York City at the moment.
[14:43.630 --> 14:45.250]  Now, I want to play something.
[14:45.770 --> 14:47.370]  Rob, I think you alerted us to this.
[14:48.070 --> 14:54.710]  I'm going to play a little clip from a Disney TV program that appeared this week.
[14:55.270 --> 14:59.150]  And then we're going to talk about just what was said here.
[14:59.310 --> 15:02.070]  This is from a program called Shake It Up.
[15:02.110 --> 15:02.890]  I have no idea.
[15:02.930 --> 15:05.010]  I never watched this channel.
[15:05.170 --> 15:08.330]  I have no idea what they're doing on this network at all.
[15:08.410 --> 15:12.710]  But I imagine lots and lots of kids around the country are glued to it.
[15:13.250 --> 15:15.270]  And so this is how they get their values.
[15:15.430 --> 15:16.630]  This is how they get information.
[15:16.630 --> 15:19.150]  This is how they learn what is right and what is wrong.
[15:19.370 --> 15:25.190]  And let's listen to a smidgen of something from this program called Shake It Up.
[15:25.830 --> 15:27.590]  Well, don't just sit there.
[15:27.670 --> 15:28.210]  Do something.
[15:28.770 --> 15:32.730]  Did you use open source code to save time and the virus was hidden in it?
[15:33.410 --> 15:33.930]  Maybe.
[15:35.990 --> 15:36.930]  Rookie mistake.
[15:39.170 --> 15:39.570]  Okay.
[15:40.570 --> 15:44.830]  Did you use open source and a virus was hidden in it?
[15:44.910 --> 15:46.470]  What in God's name are these people saying?
[15:46.570 --> 15:47.630]  What are they saying to our kids?
[15:47.770 --> 15:50.850]  That if you use open source you're going to get a virus?
[15:51.070 --> 15:52.030]  Disney is saying this?
[15:52.170 --> 15:54.850]  I don't understand the placement of the laugh track either.
[15:55.230 --> 15:56.570]  Well, it's not very funny.
[15:56.930 --> 15:58.090]  Yeah, that doesn't make sense.
[15:58.370 --> 16:00.910]  Is that something that a general audience would laugh at?
[16:00.950 --> 16:01.350]  I don't know.
[16:01.770 --> 16:03.490]  Let's listen to it from that perspective again.
[16:04.690 --> 16:06.330]  Well, don't just sit there.
[16:06.410 --> 16:06.930]  Do something.
[16:07.630 --> 16:11.450]  Did you use open source code to save time and the virus was hidden in it?
[16:12.270 --> 16:12.670]  Maybe.
[16:14.750 --> 16:17.390]  I think it was the sheepish way that they said maybe.
[16:17.510 --> 16:18.310]  I think that's what it was.
[16:18.450 --> 16:19.130]  Wasn't that funny?
[16:19.550 --> 16:21.830]  No, but the expression on the person's face.
[16:22.110 --> 16:22.670]  Oh, I can't see it.
[16:22.690 --> 16:26.570]  It's on the other side of It's a TV program, so there's a lot of visuals going on here.
[16:26.910 --> 16:41.550]  We should explain for people who can't see the clip that in the beginning these characters are bringing a computer that's ostensibly down to a stereotypical nerdy kid with glasses and a sweater vest to fix it for them and he then asks them that question.
[16:42.230 --> 16:48.670]  Okay, so basically what kids learn from this is that using open source software opens you up to viruses.
[16:48.930 --> 16:50.270]  It's the exact opposite, isn't it?
[16:50.530 --> 16:56.690]  Yeah, it's really hard to hide something in open source code by the very nature that the code is open and you can look at it.
[16:57.150 --> 17:13.450]  Now, do you think this is something that there's people writing material who have no idea what it is they're talking about like Hollywood people tend to do or do you think perhaps this being Disney, they have some more ulterior motive behind saying things like this?
[17:13.690 --> 17:19.490]  I really hate to give Disney the benefit of the doubt on anything but I'm going to have to go with the first option here.
[17:19.870 --> 17:21.450]  I think they are that dumb.
[17:21.930 --> 17:23.510]  Okay, well it could be both too.
[17:23.750 --> 17:24.650]  Bernie, what do you think?
[17:24.890 --> 17:49.510]  I would not put it past Disney to slip in some anti-open source software propaganda since they are certainly not open source embracers and in fact have gone after people who have released open source software that allowed people to take full advantage of the intellectual property that they purchased.
[17:50.230 --> 17:57.330]  So, you know, we obviously will never know the answer to your question but I wouldn't put it past Disney to do that.
[17:57.550 --> 18:02.350]  They're pretty powerful and secretive organization.
[18:02.770 --> 18:22.270]  Yeah, and to put yourself in Disney's shoes, you know, if you were a huge megacorporation that had all this intellectual property and were in fact a backer of things like SOPA and PIPA and all these efforts and lawsuits who might have sued certain people that we know over issues related to intellectual property,
[18:23.190 --> 18:35.090]  you know, if you had this sort of empire and you also had the means to sort of put little bits of fear, uncertainty and disinformation out there about technical issues that were maybe not in your favor, would you do it?
[18:35.190 --> 18:36.050]  And I think you would.
[18:37.390 --> 18:40.010]  All right, well, that's what power can be used for.
[18:40.250 --> 18:43.230]  I just wonder, I don't know who the audience for this program is.
[18:43.370 --> 18:53.630]  I don't know nothing about this program, but I would wonder if they would question things like this, if they would call something out, you know, if it passed me wrong.
[18:53.770 --> 18:59.250]  I mean, all I'm saying is that Disney, which owns ABC, owns shows that people actually watch.
[18:59.290 --> 19:05.330]  And if they wanted to campaign against free software, they could probably do so.
[19:05.450 --> 19:07.350]  But they wouldn't want to be too strident about it.
[19:08.230 --> 19:10.610]  subtlety is the way to really get into people's minds.
[19:11.010 --> 19:11.610]  I guess.
[19:11.890 --> 19:16.110]  Yeah, and for generations, Disney has been expert in the field of specifically marketing toward children.
[19:16.670 --> 19:20.250]  So maybe get them while they're young and you'll have them on your side when they're older.
[19:20.410 --> 19:21.950]  Are children amused by that program?
[19:22.070 --> 19:22.430]  I don't know.
[19:22.630 --> 19:25.450]  If you're a kid, let us know if this program speaks to you.
[19:25.570 --> 19:26.030]  What's it called?
[19:26.670 --> 19:27.650]  I forgot already.
[19:28.270 --> 19:28.830]  Shake it up.
[19:29.030 --> 19:29.930]  That's how well trained I am.
[19:30.050 --> 19:30.830]  Hang on, let me look over here.
[19:30.850 --> 19:32.470]  Doesn't it say on the computer you were just
[19:37.350 --> 19:37.710]  Shake It Up?
[19:37.790 --> 19:38.930]  Oh, you knew that pretty quickly.
[19:39.090 --> 19:40.790]  Yeah, Shake It Up is the name of the program.
[19:41.050 --> 19:46.810]  Another interesting thing about this is I took a look at a packet from Disney's web server and they're running Apache.
[19:47.250 --> 19:51.530]  So Disney themselves appears to have used open source code to save time.
[19:51.810 --> 19:52.050]  Really?
[19:52.290 --> 19:52.490]  Yes.
[19:52.690 --> 19:53.090]  Interesting.
[19:53.770 --> 19:56.370]  Well, we wait to hear from Disney on this.
[19:56.930 --> 20:00.790]  You know, an official statement would be nice to know where they stand.
[20:01.410 --> 20:03.050]  Okay, we've got some other things.
[20:03.130 --> 20:08.950]  I'd like to actually read a couple of letters so that we don't lose that in the shuffle because sometimes we do if we read it at the end of the show.
[20:09.030 --> 20:10.550]  So let's read it at the beginning of the show this time.
[20:11.110 --> 20:22.470]  Hi, I was listening to Off the Hook radio program last week, which was the 15th of August, when the subject that most of our government representatives do not read bills before they are voted on came up.
[20:23.070 --> 20:27.250]  I wanted to make sure that you're aware of a campaign that is trying to have an effect on this very issue.
[20:27.370 --> 20:34.350]  It's being conducted by Gerald LeBaron, who created a movie on this subject entitled Fools on the Hill.
[20:34.590 --> 20:35.250]  What a great title.
[20:35.690 --> 20:41.390]  He has a website with the petition for this effort and a Facebook page, foolsonthehillmovie.com.
[20:42.510 --> 20:43.790]  Basically, here's a quote from the webpage.
[20:43.970 --> 20:47.970]  No more adding hundreds of pages to a bill in the middle of the night and passing it the next morning.
[20:48.110 --> 20:51.050]  No more deals made behind closed doors just before the vote.
[20:51.210 --> 20:54.750]  No more special interest influencing our laws at the last possible minute.
[20:54.930 --> 20:58.570]  We want to see the absolute final version of the bill well before the vote.
[20:58.910 --> 21:05.030]  For more information and to sign the petition, go to foolsonthehillmovie.com slash read dash post dash bills.
[21:05.450 --> 21:07.870]  And thank you, Susan, for sending that to us.
[21:08.250 --> 21:12.290]  How realistic do you guys think it is that this will ever turn into reality?
[21:12.830 --> 21:14.570]  You're laughing pretty heartily there, Ross.
[21:14.770 --> 21:16.690]  I don't think you think it's very realistic, do you?
[21:16.850 --> 21:19.370]  I'm somewhat dubious, but you know, hopeful.
[21:19.570 --> 21:21.410]  I try and hope for the best in all things.
[21:21.650 --> 21:24.390]  Bernie, any possibilities might become reality?
[21:24.390 --> 21:40.450]  I think it's a wonderful idea, and it's the only way that we as citizens can be aware of what our legislators are voting on before they vote for it, so we can tell them what we think, like, hey, you shouldn't vote for this for this reason, or you should vote for this for this reason.
[21:40.510 --> 21:45.750]  We have no choice if they can add all this stuff in at the last minute, and you don't know what it's going to say before they vote on it.
[21:45.870 --> 21:47.630]  But I think that's just...
[21:48.090 --> 21:54.250]  I think it is naive to think this has a realistic chance of happening.
[21:54.390 --> 21:58.510]  anytime soon, but if enough people got angry enough, it could happen.
[21:59.470 --> 22:00.350]  I'm just curious.
[22:00.530 --> 22:16.050]  I know we have an international audience, and maybe if anyone in any other country knows if there are... if this is actually done anywhere, if there's a way to sort of slow down the legislature such that people have time to comment on the things that it proposals,
[22:16.330 --> 22:18.210]  I'd be curious to learn about that.
[22:18.450 --> 22:23.230]  Yeah, you know, what's kind of ironic about this, such a...
[22:24.090 --> 22:29.110]  such a rule that is being suggested would have to be decided on by the very people that it's aimed at.
[22:30.650 --> 22:35.630]  And, you know, how often do you think people are going to vote to change the way they do their own job?
[22:35.730 --> 22:38.330]  They're going to try to keep doing it the way that they are used to.
[22:39.190 --> 22:43.210]  But, you know, as we've said, if people speak up and get angry enough, remember PIPA.
[22:43.370 --> 22:44.730]  I think that should be our rallying call.
[22:45.730 --> 22:46.090]  That...
[22:46.090 --> 22:47.790]  or SOPA, actually, is probably the better...
[22:47.790 --> 22:48.890]  Is it PIPA or PIPA?
[22:49.450 --> 22:51.330]  I'm not really sure how you pronounce acronyms.
[22:51.590 --> 22:52.350]  PIPA, PIPA.
[22:52.710 --> 22:53.950]  PIPA, PIPA, PIPA.
[22:54.150 --> 22:54.750]  Yeah, it's one...
[22:54.750 --> 22:56.250]  Okay, well, you know, SOPA, I think we can all agree on.
[22:56.350 --> 23:00.090]  So remember SOPA, because we defeated that by getting angry and getting loud.
[23:01.130 --> 23:07.310]  And there are numerous examples of people getting angry and loud and changing things that they thought they couldn't change.
[23:07.510 --> 23:09.990]  So the power is there if you choose to use it.
[23:10.250 --> 23:12.610]  So, I mean, one thing that's interesting about the U.S.
[23:12.730 --> 23:18.850]  Congress is that the people in it are as aware as anyone how awful the system is.
[23:19.110 --> 23:21.270]  And they do occasionally vote to change it.
[23:21.470 --> 23:32.050]  They voted for some sort of moderate campaign finance reform that the Supreme Court overturned because they themselves, the Congress people, are sick of fundraising all day, every day.
[23:32.390 --> 23:36.590]  So it does happen occasionally.
[23:37.830 --> 23:54.350]  Yeah, and whether or not the Congress critters are right now ready to change this, the first step is always spreading awareness and how many people are really aware that this is how things are done, that people might have this idea in their heads in general that these people that are voting on these laws have read them.
[23:54.510 --> 23:56.410]  So it's getting the word out that's important.
[23:56.670 --> 23:57.750]  Yeah, it's common sense.
[23:57.910 --> 24:05.570]  I mean, if you're going to make changes in laws and create new laws and things like that, it makes sense to read it before you pass it.
[24:05.650 --> 24:08.970]  It makes sense to not have it attached to something that's completely unrelated.
[24:09.430 --> 24:13.290]  These are just basic things that most people, I think, would agree with.
[24:13.590 --> 24:22.810]  But if the system is set up in a completely different way and you feel like you can't change it, you get the sort of hopeless feeling that it doesn't matter and nothing can ever change.
[24:22.950 --> 24:24.450]  And that's very far from the truth.
[24:25.430 --> 24:26.830]  Okay, let's move on.
[24:26.970 --> 24:31.450]  We have this interesting news update, which is a bit bizarre.
[24:32.310 --> 24:47.450]  Apparently, if you're writing a letter to a prisoner in one of seven jails run by the San Diego County Sheriff's Department, well, you'd better finish it pretty quickly because after September 1st, prisoners will be allowed to receive only postcards and email,
[24:47.450 --> 24:49.130]  but no letters.
[24:49.130 --> 24:53.370]  No letters except from their attorneys or other justice system officials.
[24:53.790 --> 25:02.570]  Now, the goal, according to Sheriff's Commander Rich Miller, is to reduce the amount of drugs, weapons, and other contraband being smuggled into the jails.
[25:03.130 --> 25:04.990]  I thought they opened the envelopes.
[25:05.090 --> 25:06.990]  What kind of weapon can you fit inside a letter?
[25:06.990 --> 25:07.690]  I don't know.
[25:07.870 --> 25:09.590]  I guess someone knows and will tell us.
[25:09.730 --> 25:11.970]  Something very effective if you can get it into an envelope.
[25:12.270 --> 25:13.730]  Words are the greatest weapons there are.
[25:13.790 --> 25:14.150]  They are.
[25:14.350 --> 25:14.830]  They certainly are.
[25:14.870 --> 25:16.190]  But you can put words on a postcard as well.
[25:16.910 --> 25:21.190]  Now, among other things, there have been attempts to smuggle hypodermic needles to prisoners in letters.
[25:21.310 --> 25:21.790]  Now, you know what?
[25:22.230 --> 25:31.550]  I'm not what you would call a first-class detective, but I do think that I could tell if there was a hypodermic needle inside an envelope of a letter that was being sent.
[25:31.550 --> 25:32.590]  It's not that hard.
[25:32.690 --> 25:34.250]  They don't fold flat.
[25:35.230 --> 25:49.730]  And especially if I have permission to open the letter, which I imagine people in prisons give themselves permission to open all the correspondence with prisoners, yeah, you're going to find the hypodermic needle unless it's, you know, something that you pour water on and it suddenly becomes a hypodermic needle.
[25:49.810 --> 25:51.470]  No, we don't have that technology.
[25:51.690 --> 25:52.750]  And there are metal detectors.
[25:52.950 --> 25:57.930]  They could just put a whole stack of mail through metal detector and if there's a metal needled in it, it would set off the alarm.
[25:57.930 --> 26:03.290]  I think, you know, the real reason behind this is because they...
[26:03.290 --> 26:06.270]  all these letters mean a lot more words.
[26:06.450 --> 26:15.290]  A lot more words mean they have to read a lot more and a lot of the people who run these prisons can't read or don't read very well and they'd rather not.
[26:15.470 --> 26:18.710]  So that's what I think they're doing is cutting down on the amount of words they get to process.
[26:19.150 --> 26:22.130]  And if it's an email, there's all kinds of advantages for the prison staff.
[26:22.270 --> 26:25.130]  They can keep all the emails and still give a copy to the prisoners.
[26:25.310 --> 26:26.790]  They can search them for keywords.
[26:26.790 --> 26:28.470]  There's a lot of things they can do with emails.
[26:28.470 --> 26:30.570]  They can save it and show it to their loved ones at home.
[26:30.670 --> 26:31.750]  They can do all kinds of things.
[26:32.130 --> 26:37.550]  And yeah, a piece of regular mail, though, they'd have to Xerox it to make copies of.
[26:37.670 --> 26:39.270]  But email, they can do anything they want.
[26:39.590 --> 26:47.130]  And it's also just another way to make life a little more miserable, I think, for the inmates who no longer get letters to hold on to and read and reread.
[26:47.230 --> 26:50.630]  Always the goal to make things just a little bit more miserable for the people inside.
[26:52.270 --> 26:55.330]  Now, the postcards, they say also, had better be clean.
[26:55.330 --> 26:56.630]  No depictions of nudity.
[26:57.350 --> 27:05.110]  Weapons, gang references, criminal activity, racism, or images or writing that may incite violence.
[27:05.810 --> 27:09.750]  Well, at least they won't get campaign materials from their local congressmen and politicians.
[27:10.430 --> 27:10.990]  Right.
[27:11.270 --> 27:17.050]  You know, what's weird about this, this is a Los Angeles Times story, the last sentence of this story.
[27:17.170 --> 27:22.670]  After September 1st, letters, as Elvis famously said, will be marked return to sender.
[27:22.770 --> 27:25.430]  Why was it necessary to say it like that?
[27:25.730 --> 27:29.250]  To give Elvis Presley the credit for saying return to sender.
[27:29.670 --> 27:32.790]  Why do we need an Elvis reference in a news story like that?
[27:32.930 --> 27:33.670]  I just don't get it.
[27:33.810 --> 27:34.650]  It's the Los Angeles Times.
[27:34.690 --> 27:37.950]  You have to tie in a Hollywood reference at every opportunity.
[27:37.950 --> 27:39.930]  It's the Memphis reference more than a Hollywood.
[27:40.170 --> 27:40.750]  Okay, whatever.
[27:42.010 --> 27:48.050]  Okay, we have a couple of other items here that I'd like to read first before we get into a bigger item.
[27:48.810 --> 27:49.950]  Okay, how about an announcement?
[27:50.150 --> 27:52.470]  We have another hacker camp.
[27:52.470 --> 27:54.890]  Yes, another hacker camp on the horizon.
[27:55.030 --> 27:56.390]  We knew about this one.
[27:56.510 --> 27:57.330]  We knew this one was coming.
[27:57.750 --> 28:00.710]  Every four years, the Dutch have a hacker camp.
[28:01.110 --> 28:02.510]  It happened last...
[28:02.510 --> 28:03.030]  Okay, you know what?
[28:03.110 --> 28:04.870]  Bernie, I'm going to put you on the spot here.
[28:04.990 --> 28:10.470]  I'm going to ask you to name all of the hacker camps that have taken place.
[28:10.490 --> 28:12.630]  I'm going to actually start it off.
[28:12.910 --> 28:14.390]  1989 was when it began.
[28:14.570 --> 28:15.590]  It wasn't a camp.
[28:15.590 --> 28:19.450]  It was an historic conference that took place in the middle of Amsterdam.
[28:20.370 --> 28:21.730]  And that was called...
[28:21.730 --> 28:23.690]  Does anybody want to say that for extra points?
[28:24.310 --> 28:25.850]  Is that the H-E-U?
[28:26.050 --> 28:26.650]  No, no, no.
[28:26.810 --> 28:27.130]  Nope, nope.
[28:28.210 --> 28:29.790]  That is one of them, but it's not that one.
[28:29.930 --> 28:32.590]  This was the Galactic Hacker Party that took place in 1989.
[28:32.650 --> 28:45.450]  In fact, if you go back in the archives of Off the Hook, and listen to the shows around July or August of 1989, you'll hear me going to Europe for the first time or talking about going to Europe for the first time.
[28:45.590 --> 28:47.950]  And that's why I went to experience that.
[28:48.050 --> 28:48.690]  And it was really...
[28:48.690 --> 28:56.830]  It was life-changing because first time I ever saw European hackers and we started communicating back and forth between our various nations.
[28:57.010 --> 29:01.990]  And it was really cool and it led to a lot of really neat things over the next bunch of years.
[29:02.390 --> 29:06.670]  But from that point, the tradition got started every four years there would be an event.
[29:07.110 --> 29:11.150]  And the next one was in 1993, four years from 1989.
[29:12.670 --> 29:14.090]  And Bernie, what was that one called?
[29:14.410 --> 29:16.230]  H-E-U, Hacking at the End of the Universe.
[29:16.410 --> 29:16.910]  That is correct.
[29:16.910 --> 29:17.250]  Yes.
[29:17.370 --> 29:18.210]  Hacking at the End of the Universe.
[29:18.330 --> 29:19.170]  And I was at that one too.
[29:19.630 --> 29:23.290]  And that was the first, I believe, the first hacker camp.
[29:23.610 --> 29:25.570]  And I was a bit dubious going into that.
[29:25.690 --> 29:27.110]  How can hackers have a camp?
[29:27.710 --> 29:28.870]  How is that going to work out?
[29:28.990 --> 29:33.350]  Don't hackers need technology, electricity, network connectivity, things like that.
[29:33.510 --> 29:39.090]  Well, they got all that and more, but they built a community in a particular area in Holland.
[29:39.110 --> 29:40.870]  And it was really cool and inspirational.
[29:40.990 --> 29:42.270]  And I think it was that.
[29:42.410 --> 29:45.010]  The Galactic Hacker Party was inspirational to a degree.
[29:45.610 --> 29:51.390]  But H-E-U really inspired us to go ahead and do something massive in this country.
[29:51.410 --> 29:53.670]  And that is how Hackers on Planet Earth got started.
[29:53.770 --> 29:56.050]  The first HOPE conference followed the year afterwards.
[29:56.050 --> 29:59.810]  And that was the first major hacking conference in this country.
[30:00.410 --> 30:03.930]  The first one to draw over a thousand people at the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[30:04.150 --> 30:07.290]  And after that, a bunch of conferences started drawing more and more people.
[30:07.430 --> 30:09.310]  And it got really big.
[30:09.430 --> 30:12.830]  I think we owe a lot to the Dutch for showing us that, yeah, you know what?
[30:12.870 --> 30:14.330]  We don't have to hide.
[30:14.330 --> 30:16.690]  We don't have to have only tiny gatherings.
[30:16.690 --> 30:21.890]  We can actually be open to the public and do something in the middle of society.
[30:22.690 --> 30:23.790]  Anyway, that was 1993.
[30:24.050 --> 30:24.690]  Okay, so 1997.
[30:24.850 --> 30:25.670]  What happened then?
[30:26.850 --> 30:27.250]  Oof.
[30:27.530 --> 30:28.630]  I know it wasn't Hal.
[30:28.870 --> 30:30.250]  Because that was the next one after that.
[30:30.610 --> 30:31.590]  I'll give you a hint.
[30:31.810 --> 30:32.290]  I'll give you a hint.
[30:33.430 --> 30:36.550]  1997 was the year of our second conference.
[30:37.370 --> 30:39.190]  Right now, our conference is every two years.
[30:39.330 --> 30:40.830]  Back then, they were every three years.
[30:41.270 --> 30:42.850]  And this one was in 1997.
[30:43.650 --> 30:50.350]  This particular Dutch event happened at the very same time as Beyond Hope for the next round, Bernie.
[30:50.350 --> 30:52.050]  What was the name of that camp?
[30:52.230 --> 30:57.630]  We even had this special light bulb switching thing where we could turn a light bulb on there and they could turn it on at our end.
[30:57.770 --> 30:58.650]  It was very exciting, yes.
[30:58.770 --> 30:59.170]  It was cool.
[30:59.570 --> 31:00.530]  I can't remember.
[31:00.750 --> 31:02.990]  Boy, we're getting old and forgetful.
[31:03.030 --> 31:04.170]  Now you're getting old and forgetful.
[31:04.350 --> 31:06.190]  I think everybody else remembers this.
[31:06.390 --> 31:07.270]  Do you remember it, Rob?
[31:07.570 --> 31:07.890]  No?
[31:08.050 --> 31:09.090]  I do not remember it, no.
[31:09.170 --> 31:09.470]  Mike?
[31:11.010 --> 31:13.470]  To say I remember it, I wasn't aware of it at the time.
[31:13.910 --> 31:15.170]  Well, but you're aware of it now.
[31:15.170 --> 31:16.230]  You could be aware of it now.
[31:17.190 --> 31:17.750]  That's true.
[31:19.010 --> 31:19.670]  Well, you know what?
[31:19.670 --> 31:20.490]  You're not very hip.
[31:21.710 --> 31:22.290]  That's the name.
[31:22.290 --> 31:22.590]  Really?
[31:22.770 --> 31:23.050]  Really?
[31:23.610 --> 31:24.710]  Hacking in progress.
[31:25.090 --> 31:25.270]  Yes.
[31:25.330 --> 31:26.010]  That's what it was.
[31:26.290 --> 31:26.810]  Okay, fine.
[31:26.910 --> 31:27.250]  No problem.
[31:27.350 --> 31:30.790]  1997, that was the Dutch hacker conference then or hacker camp.
[31:31.110 --> 31:32.890]  So now we move to 2001, Bernie.
[31:33.250 --> 31:34.110]  That was how?
[31:34.970 --> 31:35.890]  Hacking at large.
[31:36.030 --> 31:37.050]  Hacking at large, correct.
[31:37.390 --> 31:37.710]  All right.
[31:37.850 --> 31:39.750]  And then four years from then, 2005?
[31:42.030 --> 31:42.590]  Let's see.
[31:42.690 --> 31:43.370]  That was...
[31:43.370 --> 31:44.230]  What the hack?
[31:45.230 --> 31:47.130]  Is that your answer or is that an exclamation?
[31:47.370 --> 31:47.970]  What the hack?
[31:49.130 --> 31:50.210]  What the hack indeed.
[31:50.530 --> 31:50.770]  All right.
[31:50.970 --> 31:53.670]  And then we move on to the most recent one, 2009.
[31:54.250 --> 31:54.650]  Har.
[31:54.830 --> 31:55.530]  Hacking at random.
[31:56.170 --> 31:56.730]  That's right.
[31:56.890 --> 31:57.070]  Har.
[31:57.230 --> 31:58.090]  Hacking at random.
[31:58.690 --> 31:59.090]  Okay.
[31:59.210 --> 32:01.030]  So now we move to the future.
[32:01.190 --> 32:02.570]  We move to the year 2013.
[32:03.270 --> 32:06.770]  The next Dutch hacker camp is going to be called OM.
[32:07.010 --> 32:08.230]  O-H-M.
[32:08.590 --> 32:09.890]  And Mike, what does that stand for?
[32:10.350 --> 32:11.390]  Observe, hack, make.
[32:12.170 --> 32:12.570]  Interesting.
[32:13.050 --> 32:13.390]  All right.
[32:13.590 --> 32:14.490]  Observe, hack, make.
[32:14.790 --> 32:24.750]  That will be taking place July 31st through August 4th of the year 2013 at a place we're all very familiar with, Giesmerambacht.
[32:24.990 --> 32:25.270]  Right.
[32:25.490 --> 32:25.750]  Right?
[32:25.810 --> 32:26.430]  Did I say it right?
[32:26.610 --> 32:26.870]  No.
[32:27.270 --> 32:27.450]  All right.
[32:27.470 --> 32:27.990]  You say it.
[32:28.130 --> 32:29.170]  I can't say it right.
[32:29.170 --> 32:30.290]  How do you know I didn't say it right?
[32:30.370 --> 32:32.210]  Because the G is like in Dutch.
[32:32.410 --> 32:33.090]  I know that much.
[32:33.630 --> 32:35.650]  How much can I pay you never to make that sound again?
[32:36.150 --> 32:36.950]  How much you got?
[32:37.150 --> 32:37.510]  All right.
[32:38.050 --> 32:39.710]  Well, it's somewhere in the Netherlands.
[32:39.790 --> 32:42.570]  That's a really long word and hard for us to pronounce.
[32:43.390 --> 32:46.270]  But this is the next chapter in the saga.
[32:46.790 --> 32:47.850]  OM 2013.
[32:50.230 --> 32:52.310]  And it was announced officially this week.
[32:53.130 --> 32:53.530]  Yes.
[32:53.830 --> 32:54.090]  All right.
[32:54.190 --> 32:58.530]  Well, apparently it was secretly announced at a conference none of us were at like a week ago.
[32:58.690 --> 33:00.370]  But now it's officially announced to everyone.
[33:00.610 --> 33:01.550]  We knew it was coming.
[33:01.690 --> 33:03.130]  We just didn't know exactly when it was coming.
[33:03.630 --> 33:06.230]  And we knew it was coming in the summer of next year.
[33:06.290 --> 33:07.710]  We didn't know the exact dates.
[33:08.370 --> 33:09.310]  But yeah, okay.
[33:09.490 --> 33:12.710]  So now I guess the call for participation is open.
[33:13.130 --> 33:20.670]  You can go to OM2013.org and probably find all kinds of information there as far as what people are looking for.
[33:21.210 --> 33:24.550]  Yeah, I don't even know if the CFP is quite open yet, but it will be soon.
[33:25.290 --> 33:29.410]  And I'm sure we'll be giving updates as they give us updates to update.
[33:29.550 --> 33:31.850]  Yeah, and a lot of interesting things happening in Europe.
[33:31.850 --> 33:37.090]  Of course, we talked recently about the Chaos Communication Congress moving to Hamburg from Berlin.
[33:38.030 --> 33:39.770]  that happening later this year.
[33:40.010 --> 33:42.650]  So that's going to be interesting to a much larger space.
[33:44.310 --> 33:45.910]  So things are happening.
[33:46.190 --> 33:46.890]  Things are always happening.
[33:47.290 --> 33:48.630]  It's hard to keep up with them all.
[33:48.770 --> 33:49.150]  Yes, Bernie.
[33:49.450 --> 33:56.870]  I just want to point out to our listeners who've never been to one of these Dutch hacker camps, they are truly life-changing experiences.
[33:56.870 --> 34:04.070]  You get to meet people from all over the world in a different country where cultures and traditions are different than ours here.
[34:04.070 --> 34:14.870]  and it is such a feeling of what this world could be if everybody was if everybody was a hacker.
[34:15.420 --> 34:26.970]  If everybody was pretty smart and well-informed and creative and liked to work together with other people and do amazing stuff in a cool setting.
[34:27.010 --> 34:30.170]  That's what the world could be like if we all tried harder.
[34:30.810 --> 34:38.750]  Yeah, and you know every time that there is an event like this we always hear from people that say oh, I want to go but I just can't make the time for it.
[34:38.810 --> 34:51.810]  Well, we're telling you a year in advance now so there's you know there are still reasons I'm sure but you know maybe you can plan for this and change your life because as Bernie said they are life-changing in a good way.
[34:52.090 --> 35:02.410]  You know, it really is inspirational and you see a lot of the positivity that has come out of events like that in the past how it's affected affected us here in the states and people all around the world.
[35:02.550 --> 35:08.870]  Well, this is an example of that and you can be a part of it and bring it back to wherever it is that you come from as well.
[35:09.050 --> 35:17.390]  It's a global community and the hacker community has always been a global community so it's really cool to meet people from other parts of the world.
[35:18.530 --> 35:23.210]  All right, so OM 2013 looking forward to that that is coming up.
[35:24.090 --> 35:30.390]  Okay, so now the big story this week of course is our friend Julian Assange still in the news.
[35:30.570 --> 35:32.990]  Incredible how that story never seems to end.
[35:33.770 --> 35:41.670]  Now, last week we were speculating as to whether or not he was about to get asylum.
[35:42.110 --> 35:48.830]  Yeah, asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy in London and yes, the reports were true.
[35:48.990 --> 36:04.650]  He did get asylum and I think a lot of that was based on the meatheaded words that the United Kingdom said to the Ecuadorian authorities that you know what we're going to use force to get him out of there if you don't accede to our demands.
[36:05.170 --> 36:24.910]  This is kind of a veiled threat and of course they didn't take that very well and they basically now have a standoff with Julian inside the embassy and not able to leave because the British authorities have surrounded the place and it's not the kind of place you can just drive up and throw somebody in a car and drive to the airport.
[36:25.070 --> 36:30.470]  No, it's very different and they'll grab him as soon as he actually leaves.
[36:30.590 --> 36:57.790]  He gave an address on Sunday from the window of the building to a huge crowd outside and to the global audience that was watching and I don't know if people saw this but there was a shout out to our friend William Binney who gave the keynote at Hope Number 9 the whistleblower at the National Security Agency one of the heroes one of the heroes of our community people who give out information people
[36:57.790 --> 37:16.750]  who question authority there are so many people like that now the question of course with Julian it's kind of I see a lot of debate going on as to whether he's doing the right thing whether he should actually go to Sweden to answer these charges ...whether it's all about him and not about WikiLeaks.
[37:17.290 --> 37:24.590]  But, you know, I do think... I do think watching all of this, it's pretty clear that there is more going on behind the scenes.
[37:24.810 --> 37:34.810]  And the authorities have taken an interest of Julian that goes well beyond the charges that he's facing in Sweden.
[37:35.730 --> 37:40.170]  All they really have to say is, you know, and then the ball will be in his court.
[37:40.830 --> 37:44.330]  They have to say that, no, we're not going to extradite you to the United States.
[37:44.530 --> 37:52.770]  The Swedish authorities, the British authorities, the American authorities, the Australian authorities, nobody has done this.
[37:52.870 --> 37:54.170]  But, of course, they can't.
[37:54.450 --> 37:55.150]  Why can't they?
[37:55.190 --> 37:55.890]  Why can't they do that?
[37:55.990 --> 37:59.550]  Because they can't comment on an extradition request they haven't seen.
[37:59.730 --> 38:03.790]  Like, the Swedish state is not going to promise not to comply with the U.S.
[38:03.990 --> 38:07.090]  extradition treaty before they've seen a specific request.
[38:07.090 --> 38:07.370]  Mm-hmm.
[38:07.670 --> 38:10.370]  Then it's... then the ball's in the American court then.
[38:10.490 --> 38:12.670]  They have to say that we're not going to do this.
[38:12.730 --> 38:17.310]  We promise we're not going to extradite Julian Assange if he goes to Sweden.
[38:17.590 --> 38:18.670]  Just that one statement.
[38:18.930 --> 38:19.890]  And then this would be over.
[38:20.850 --> 38:21.830]  Who's going to say that?
[38:22.230 --> 38:22.850]  Well, I don't know.
[38:22.950 --> 38:25.630]  I'm sure they could draw straws at the State Department and somebody could say it.
[38:25.750 --> 38:29.570]  But, I mean, is there a reason they can't simply make that statement?
[38:29.750 --> 38:30.590]  Who's going to say it?
[38:30.770 --> 38:31.450]  I don't know.
[38:31.570 --> 38:32.330]  That's not my problem.
[38:32.530 --> 38:33.150]  Who's going to say it?
[38:33.230 --> 38:35.510]  But whoever is in charge would say that.
[38:35.510 --> 38:36.030]  No one's in charge.
[38:36.030 --> 38:37.750]  The point is...
[38:37.750 --> 38:38.510]  That's not the way the U.S.
[38:38.590 --> 38:39.130]  government works.
[38:39.130 --> 38:42.730]  It seems pretty obvious that this is not about the charges in Sweden.
[38:42.930 --> 38:48.550]  I'm not dismissing the charges in Sweden, but it seems pretty obvious that there's more to this story than just that.
[38:48.970 --> 38:57.210]  And this is why Julian is holed up in the embassy because it's pretty obvious that there's something else afoot.
[38:57.730 --> 39:04.770]  We've heard rumors about all kinds of sealed indictments and investigations going on in the United States.
[39:04.770 --> 39:15.390]  And obviously, they want to bring this guy in because of the harm that he caused, completely overlooking the good that was caused by the revelations that WikiLeaks made a couple of years ago.
[39:17.050 --> 39:20.730]  And I just think that's really where the problem lies.
[39:21.150 --> 39:22.430]  And I don't know.
[39:22.530 --> 39:26.010]  I mean, if we could say... we could say right now... we know people listen to the program.
[39:26.250 --> 39:30.870]  If we could say to any of the major players, this is how you can resolve this.
[39:31.030 --> 39:31.870]  Do we have any suggestions?
[39:32.030 --> 39:33.850]  Or maybe our listeners can weigh in on this.
[39:34.290 --> 39:34.730]  Anybody?
[39:35.010 --> 39:35.190]  Bernie?
[39:35.190 --> 39:42.690]  I just wanted to point out, just for clarification, that Julian Assange has not been charged with any crime in Sweden or anywhere else in the world.
[39:43.230 --> 39:45.370]  He is wanted for questioning.
[39:46.230 --> 39:57.610]  And the Swedish government has not responded or refused to accept an offer to question Julian in the UK.
[39:58.270 --> 40:06.770]  And Sweden has a precedent of going to other countries to question people about criminal matters where there have been no charges yet.
[40:06.770 --> 40:08.290]  But they're not doing it in this case.
[40:08.350 --> 40:09.430]  And there's probably a reason.
[40:09.630 --> 40:14.350]  I don't know what that reason is, but it's interesting that they refuse to ask him.
[40:14.510 --> 40:16.310]  They could just email the questions to him.
[40:16.750 --> 40:17.950]  I just don't understand.
[40:17.950 --> 40:21.970]  If they want to send a representative from Sweden to the UK to interview him, he's been invited.
[40:21.970 --> 40:26.270]  They've been invited to the Ecuadorian embassy to question him there.
[40:26.590 --> 40:29.290]  But no, why do they have to go to Sweden to answer questions?
[40:30.030 --> 40:31.270]  This doesn't... I don't know.
[40:31.370 --> 40:32.490]  I don't get this part.
[40:32.650 --> 40:36.350]  Okay, well, I do have a question to counter the other questions that I've raised.
[40:36.490 --> 40:40.330]  Because, you know, I've not made up my mind on any of this, but I'm always asking questions about it.
[40:40.730 --> 40:51.150]  Now, the United Kingdom, and we've talked about this with the Richard O'Dwyer case, the United Kingdom has a very good relationship with the United States as far as extraditing whoever it is the United States wants extradited.
[40:51.150 --> 40:59.710]  And wouldn't Julian be in more trouble, at more risk, in the United Kingdom for being extradited to the United States than in Sweden?
[41:00.450 --> 41:01.710]  I've long wondered this.
[41:01.870 --> 41:03.170]  It doesn't make any sense to me.
[41:03.710 --> 41:04.150]  Okay.
[41:04.370 --> 41:04.950]  You're right, though.
[41:05.110 --> 41:09.270]  They have extradited people to the U.S.
[41:09.390 --> 41:09.690]  before.
[41:10.330 --> 41:16.890]  And there's more extradition requests being processed as we speak from the U.S.
[41:16.970 --> 41:17.730]  to the U.K.
[41:18.210 --> 41:19.290]  And the U.K.
[41:19.310 --> 41:23.790]  certainly could consider an extradition request from the U.S.
[41:24.230 --> 41:24.890]  for Julian.
[41:25.170 --> 41:34.810]  Well, right now, he can't, because he's on, effectively, he's on Ecuadorian soil in, you know, at the Ecuadorian embassy in Knightsbridge, but in the U.K.
[41:34.990 --> 41:35.190]  Right.
[41:35.310 --> 41:40.290]  But, yeah, for months I've been wondering, well, why would he be at more risk when he extradited from Sweden to the U.S.
[41:40.450 --> 41:41.350]  than from the U.K.
[41:41.410 --> 41:42.010]  to the U.S.?
[41:42.010 --> 41:44.790]  And that part of this whole thing doesn't make any sense to me.
[41:45.290 --> 41:49.870]  The other thing that makes very little sense is the unprecedented response.
[41:50.890 --> 42:07.950]  Instead of just ignoring the situation like they would with anybody else, any other bail offender who either violates bail or goes into an embassy or whatnot, they have responded in such force that it's clear that this is not just a simple case.
[42:07.950 --> 42:13.390]  I mean, we're talking about somebody who's being charged with something that wouldn't even have been a crime in the country he's in right now.
[42:13.530 --> 42:14.770]  It's not to negate it at all.
[42:14.870 --> 42:18.410]  It's just to say that, let's look at the proportion here.
[42:18.550 --> 42:24.390]  In 1984, somebody fired shots outside the Libyan embassy and killed a policewoman in London.
[42:24.590 --> 42:29.110]  The entire staff of that building was allowed to leave without even being questioned.
[42:29.470 --> 42:32.630]  So it just seems a little bit disproportional, the response.
[42:32.910 --> 42:34.190]  That's what makes me wonder.
[42:34.190 --> 42:41.290]  See, the problem is that I agree that something's up, and I really would like to know what.
[42:41.470 --> 42:52.530]  But the problem is that Assange and some of his defenders spout these utter nonsense that makes it hard for me to take the rest of his position seriously.
[42:52.890 --> 43:05.050]  The stuff that he is charged with, and I have no idea if he did it or not, but the stuff that he is charged with is a serious crime that is a crime in the United Kingdom, is a crime in the United States, is a crime in any sensible jurisdiction.
[43:05.310 --> 43:06.190]  Not what he was accused of.
[43:06.270 --> 43:08.910]  That's not a crime at all in the United Kingdom or the United States.
[43:09.030 --> 43:10.410]  It's not.
[43:10.990 --> 43:20.270]  Sweden has very, very strident laws on what is defined as rape, more so than any other country in the world.
[43:20.270 --> 43:24.030]  The crime may or may not be called rape in all countries, although it should be.
[43:24.030 --> 43:29.570]  But what he's accused of is a crime in the United Kingdom and the United States.
[43:32.030 --> 43:33.610]  So this is the problem.
[43:33.850 --> 43:41.570]  Like, Assange takes these weird positions, and it makes it hard to take the rest of his positions seriously, even though, I agree, you're right, like, something is up.
[43:41.670 --> 43:47.810]  There is no reason for all these people to be guarding someone who jumped bail on a rape charge.
[43:47.950 --> 43:49.130]  Like, they don't do that normally.
[43:50.290 --> 43:50.710]  All right.
[43:50.830 --> 43:55.570]  Well, I mean, we can debate whether or not this is a charge that would be filed in any other country.
[43:56.230 --> 44:01.110]  But the point is, and I think we all agree on this, there is definitely something else going on here.
[44:01.990 --> 44:03.390]  And I don't know where it's going to go.
[44:03.630 --> 44:07.390]  I mean, any predictions as to how this is going to get resolved, if it's ever going to get resolved?
[44:07.490 --> 44:07.610]  Rob?
[44:08.570 --> 44:09.650]  I'm not sure of that.
[44:09.750 --> 44:16.430]  But to address the earlier question, too, I mean, I would be interested to see what would happen if he were actually brought up on some charges.
[44:16.930 --> 44:26.950]  Right now, there's all this extradition talk going on and asylum being claimed and all this over just being wanted for questioning, which, you know, is such... he's not being charged with a crime.
[44:27.110 --> 44:33.770]  If he's suspected of a crime and if there's evidence to imply that it might be him, then bring him up on the charges and go from there.
[44:33.910 --> 44:35.710]  There are processes in place for that sort of thing.
[44:35.710 --> 44:41.430]  But to go to all this trouble for somebody who's just wanted for questioning is very strange, no matter how you look at it.
[44:41.570 --> 44:51.890]  And it's just indicative of how, I think, people are seeing this one person who's set up now as a sort of figurehead for the sort of thing he does.
[44:52.030 --> 44:57.850]  When, in the meantime, there are people doing what Assange does all over the Internet, and there will be many more, I'm sure.
[44:57.850 --> 44:58.750]  All right.
[44:59.030 --> 45:01.990]  I'd like to take some phone calls, talk about this, and talk about some other issues.
[45:03.130 --> 45:17.790]  And keep in mind that our show is heard all throughout the world, so your words could basically be heard in different parts of the planet and affect the way people think, change the direction of the conversation.
[45:18.310 --> 45:20.210]  A lot of power in the hands of our listeners.
[45:20.510 --> 45:22.930]  Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[45:22.930 --> 45:30.830]  If I could simply also add to what I said last week, again, I don't mean to be harsh, but it's very simple, very simple.
[45:31.450 --> 45:33.710]  And, you know, I don't think... I really was very harsh.
[45:33.850 --> 45:39.110]  I just am saying that if you're going to call the radio station when we start speaking, and what you hear, you hear...
[45:39.110 --> 45:42.310]  I would demonstrate it now, except all of our lines are ringing, and there's no free lines.
[45:43.110 --> 45:45.070]  But you'll hear a little burst of static.
[45:45.330 --> 45:49.110]  That's the sound you hear right before you're put on the air.
[45:49.110 --> 45:53.410]  You will hear me say something to the effect of, good evening, you're on off the hook.
[45:54.470 --> 45:57.090]  That is your cue to start speaking back.
[45:57.390 --> 46:01.090]  Instead, what we've... and let's listen to last week's show to get examples of this.
[46:01.410 --> 46:10.970]  Even after I ask people not to, periods of two or three seconds of complete silence, people all puzzled, having their radio up, driving.
[46:11.270 --> 46:12.150]  Don't drive and call.
[46:12.390 --> 46:14.790]  Pull over and make sure you have a good signal.
[46:15.750 --> 46:17.190]  Asking if they're on the air.
[46:17.310 --> 46:18.890]  Obviously, you're on the air if I say you're on the air.
[46:19.330 --> 46:19.770]  Things like that.
[46:19.850 --> 46:20.670]  So much time is wasted.
[46:20.730 --> 46:23.070]  I know I'm wasting time by explaining it, but I'm just trying to...
[46:23.070 --> 46:25.150]  I'm trying to make it more pleasant for everybody.
[46:25.310 --> 46:26.330]  You know, I don't mean to be harsh.
[46:26.530 --> 46:27.870]  And turn your radio down, please.
[46:28.050 --> 46:32.590]  Please turn your radio down, because if you don't turn your radio down, you'll hear yourself seven seconds later.
[46:32.770 --> 46:33.930]  And then you'll be listening to that.
[46:33.930 --> 46:34.710]  You'll be pausing.
[46:34.910 --> 46:35.990]  We'll be hearing that as well.
[46:36.410 --> 46:38.430]  Everybody's going to get in a bad mood, and it just...
[46:38.430 --> 46:40.650]  It changes the whole pace of the program.
[46:45.610 --> 46:48.610]  And they, you know, the callers are sharp.
[46:48.730 --> 46:49.250]  They're on top of...
[46:49.250 --> 46:50.570]  We have the best callers in the world.
[46:50.730 --> 46:51.710]  No question about that.
[46:52.070 --> 47:00.930]  So there's no need for, you know, for the Ted Koppel effect, which is basically when you're speaking to somebody on a satellite connection, and it takes five seconds for them to hear you.
[47:01.110 --> 47:02.230]  We shouldn't have that.
[47:02.230 --> 47:07.010]  Unless you're on the South Pacific Ocean on a satellite phone, you should be able to hear us immediately.
[47:07.370 --> 47:08.270]  What if someone is?
[47:08.350 --> 47:08.910]  We'll never know.
[47:09.310 --> 47:11.030]  Well, then that's the first thing you should say.
[47:11.130 --> 47:12.210]  Say, I'm on a satellite phone.
[47:12.210 --> 47:13.410]  Then we'll give you a little bit more leeway.
[47:13.550 --> 47:14.170]  How about that?
[47:14.290 --> 47:14.530]  All right.
[47:14.810 --> 47:17.130]  212-209-2900.
[47:17.410 --> 47:20.330]  Let's see if these words have any effect.
[47:20.590 --> 47:21.250]  Good evening.
[47:21.450 --> 47:22.270]  You're on off the hook.
[47:23.030 --> 47:23.990]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[47:24.330 --> 47:25.730]  Oh, it's Bobson from Bulgaria.
[47:26.950 --> 47:27.350]  Yes.
[47:27.490 --> 47:28.210]  We have caller ID.
[47:28.250 --> 47:28.650]  We can tell.
[47:29.470 --> 47:31.150]  Actually, we don't have caller ID on this phone.
[47:31.250 --> 47:41.450]  Last week, because someone showed up on IRC from Ireland saying about what was happening at the embassy in London with the police trying to get in and all that.
[47:42.430 --> 47:52.690]  But someone, something was not quite working on the telephone, so off the hook last week, missed the chance to break that story from last Wednesday night.
[47:52.830 --> 47:53.510]  But that's not...
[47:53.510 --> 48:02.850]  I just wanted to remind everyone there hasn't been any charges that the media, that anyone's aware of in Sweden against Sanch.
[48:02.970 --> 48:05.550]  They're just an investigation because of allegations.
[48:06.550 --> 48:14.730]  Yeah, I mean, I just wish we can cut through all the nonsense, ask the damn questions, ask them publicly if you need to, or just go there, go to the Ecuadorian embassy.
[48:15.290 --> 48:26.630]  Ecuadorian embassy, if you're listening, please let the Swedes in when they knock on the door, have them stay, give them coffee or whatever, ask Julian however many questions they want to ask him, and then take it from there.
[48:26.810 --> 48:28.010]  It just seems like we're stuck.
[48:31.190 --> 48:46.610]  As far as I heard, the Ecuadorian embassy has invited Sweden to send the investigators for the questioning to the embassy, but Sweden has not done that yet.
[48:47.170 --> 48:58.670]  Yeah, I know a lot of Swedes, and they're very nice people, they're very open and forthcoming, so it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't take the Ecuadorians up on that offer.
[48:59.670 --> 49:01.250]  So, all right, Bobson, anything else?
[49:01.330 --> 49:02.310]  We've got to move on to other calls.
[49:03.590 --> 49:13.910]  Well, I hope this issue gets resolved soon, and have a good night, and thank you for a nice show, and kudos to all the people at IRC tonight.
[49:13.910 --> 49:17.810]  There's quite a few people listening in, and come on to the show.
[49:17.910 --> 49:23.650]  Okay, and please convey our best to the people of Bulgaria, if you would, just, I know it's about one in the morning there, just shout out the window to everybody.
[49:23.830 --> 49:25.510]  Well, it's nearly 3 a.m.
[49:25.610 --> 49:27.210]  Oh, I'm sorry, it's nearly 3 a.m.
[49:27.490 --> 49:33.270]  Well, still, you'll get their attention if you just shout out that people in New York wish the people of Bulgaria...
[49:33.270 --> 49:34.350]  Are you in Sofia?
[49:35.170 --> 49:35.530]  Yeah.
[49:35.730 --> 49:42.170]  Okay, yeah, say that we wish them the best, and I'm sure that you'll get all kinds of feedback as well.
[49:42.670 --> 49:46.230]  All right, 212-209-2900, good evening, you are on Off the Hook.
[49:48.850 --> 49:50.670]  See, that's the confusion I'm talking about.
[49:50.890 --> 49:51.830]  Yes, okay, now...
[49:51.830 --> 49:52.710]  Did I confuse you?
[49:52.730 --> 49:54.110]  Oh, it's Rebel, that's why.
[49:54.270 --> 49:57.610]  Okay, why, Rebel, did you wait three seconds before speaking?
[49:57.770 --> 49:58.930]  Maybe you can enlighten us.
[49:59.770 --> 50:00.130]  Anyway...
[50:00.130 --> 50:05.010]  No, no, no, I asked you a direct question, and I would prefer that you answer rather than talk while I'm talking.
[50:05.130 --> 50:08.610]  Okay, now, because I was turning down my radio, like you said, now...
[50:08.610 --> 50:12.470]  Couldn't you turn down your radio before I picked up the phone, you know?
[50:12.750 --> 50:18.230]  Yes, I'd like to mention that every radio station except for WBAI is annoying.
[50:18.430 --> 50:21.030]  Every radio station is an iHeart radio station.
[50:21.090 --> 50:21.730]  What does that mean?
[50:22.070 --> 50:23.950]  I don't know, Bernie, maybe you know what that means.
[50:23.970 --> 50:25.170]  An iHeart station?
[50:25.170 --> 50:25.810]  What does that mean?
[50:26.630 --> 50:30.310]  It's a brand owned by Clear Channel to listen to radio on the internet.
[50:30.770 --> 50:31.330]  Oh, really?
[50:31.550 --> 50:31.770]  Yeah.
[50:31.770 --> 50:32.350]  I never heard this.
[50:32.590 --> 50:38.630]  So you have to be owned by Clear Channel to be in it, and WBAI is one of the few stations not owned by Clear Channel, so we're not in it.
[50:38.630 --> 50:39.090]  Well, I know that.
[50:39.090 --> 50:40.630]  I just didn't know about this iHeart thing.
[50:40.670 --> 50:41.590]  Yeah, it's a thing.
[50:41.730 --> 50:42.510]  It's a smartphone thing.
[50:42.630 --> 50:43.850]  We've spent enough time talking about this.
[50:43.890 --> 50:44.290]  Let's move on.
[50:44.370 --> 50:44.730]  Good evening.
[50:44.890 --> 50:45.790]  You're on Off the Hook.
[50:46.670 --> 50:47.030]  Hi.
[50:47.190 --> 50:47.370]  Hi.
[50:47.510 --> 50:48.210]  How are you?
[50:48.350 --> 50:48.650]  I'm good.
[50:48.730 --> 50:48.910]  I'm good.
[50:49.030 --> 50:53.190]  I want to comment about your little prison thing there.
[50:53.490 --> 50:54.430]  What little prison thing?
[50:54.570 --> 51:00.730]  You know, when you said that the prisoners were no longer going to be allowed mail service?
[51:00.830 --> 51:01.530]  Yeah, in San Diego.
[51:01.770 --> 51:05.290]  Okay, and I said, nothing is easy as it is.
[51:06.010 --> 51:08.270]  I thought three things right away.
[51:08.510 --> 51:14.770]  Number one, they're trying to get rid of the mail service as it is, all over the country.
[51:15.170 --> 51:23.970]  Now, suppose that these people have been informed, if you do this, then we'll do that for you, so they'll become a little test market for this.
[51:23.970 --> 51:27.570]  If it works, Steve and the other ones that will adopt this.
[51:27.650 --> 51:29.750]  Well, who is it that's trying to get rid of mail service?
[51:31.650 --> 51:42.990]  They're trying to get a hold of the pension and all of this, and you can do it because all over now, they're cutting it out to, they want to cut it down to five days.
[51:50.010 --> 51:55.930]  Yeah, we've all heard about the budget cutbacks and how post offices are being closed and things like that.
[51:55.930 --> 52:06.110]  They want to get to a further privatization where each mail service will be, let's say, owned by some major corporation or who can do this.
[52:06.190 --> 52:09.070]  But I don't think you'll be able to FedEx anything to a prison anytime soon.
[52:09.070 --> 52:10.930]  Yeah, but I don't know.
[52:11.090 --> 52:16.990]  But what I'm just simply saying is that it's not as simple as you're making it sound, trust me.
[52:17.130 --> 52:30.950]  Because the other thing is, unless each prisoner has their own computer or own device where they can get their email, they may not be able to get them if you only have two computers.
[52:30.950 --> 52:31.910]  Mm-hmm.
[52:32.010 --> 52:33.070]  No, that's very true.
[52:33.290 --> 52:33.810]  That's very true.
[52:34.150 --> 52:45.310]  So, and then the other thing is, you cannot keep track of a prisoner without something happening, you know, interaction with some type of mail or whatever.
[52:45.410 --> 52:47.090]  I'm talking about the family.
[52:47.570 --> 52:48.050]  Mm-hmm.
[52:48.130 --> 52:59.290]  And on BAI, you were talking a lot about having prisoners, you know, now do a whole lot of work outside the prisons and all of this type of stuff.
[52:59.290 --> 53:01.530]  Now, they could send the prison there anywhere.
[53:01.770 --> 53:03.150]  And how are you going to track them?
[53:03.670 --> 53:16.810]  And it sort of ties into something we've talked about on the show in the past, which is how prison inmates are exploited by telephone companies who charge ridiculous amounts for things like collect calls or, you know, calls to the family or things like that.
[53:16.850 --> 53:22.950]  So if we're looking at a similar situation with the sending of mail, then that would be an extreme worry.
[53:23.110 --> 53:39.130]  By the way, I just want to point out, I don't usually do this, but in our next issue, in the autumn issue of 2600, there is a great article about the Bureau of Prisons, their computer system, all kinds of revelations, things that we don't know about that will be revealed in that issue.
[53:39.150 --> 53:39.830]  That's all I'm going to say.
[53:39.950 --> 53:40.930]  Thanks very much for that call.
[53:41.070 --> 53:43.050]  A lot of interesting topics and concerns there.
[53:43.670 --> 53:44.830]  212-209-2900.
[53:44.950 --> 53:45.750]  We have a couple more minutes.
[53:46.510 --> 53:52.230]  If anyone else has anything to say on either the Hassan situation or anything else that we've discussed tonight, let's see who's out there.
[53:52.310 --> 53:52.650]  Good evening.
[53:52.790 --> 53:53.590]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:55.270 --> 53:55.630]  Hi.
[53:55.630 --> 53:56.870]  My name is Jesse Rose.
[53:57.570 --> 53:57.770]  Okay.
[53:57.930 --> 54:00.250]  No need for your full name, but what's up, Jesse?
[54:00.290 --> 54:00.730]  You're on the air.
[54:01.210 --> 54:01.650]  Oh, sorry.
[54:01.770 --> 54:03.210]  I thought it was feedback for a second.
[54:04.210 --> 54:16.990]  I'm calling because I've been listening to the show for a really long time, and when I first started listening, a lot of the commentary and the discussion had to do with really specific facts, and it gave a lot of information, and that's the reason I like the show.
[54:17.570 --> 54:36.650]  But this discussion seems to be a lot of just general conclusions and assumptions about what's going on, and it seems like you guys would benefit from maybe having somebody with a computer sitting there and looking up some of the information instead of commentating about assumptions about what's going on with the case.
[54:36.650 --> 54:43.150]  Like, for example, I mean, can Sweden charge Julian Assange before he's extradited?
[54:43.310 --> 54:47.030]  Do they charge people while they're out of the country before they arrest them?
[54:47.730 --> 54:47.810]  Yes.
[54:47.810 --> 54:53.610]  Do they issue warrants typically in these cases, or is it something where they're not going to charge them until they have a conversation with them?
[54:54.530 --> 54:55.370]  Bernie, you had something?
[54:55.850 --> 55:01.710]  Yes, I have researched this, and Sweden has in the past charged people who were not in Sweden at that moment.
[55:02.670 --> 55:05.130]  So, to answer your question, yes, they could do that.
[55:05.650 --> 55:08.790]  But with... I mean, this is a really minor crime in Sweden.
[55:09.010 --> 55:10.670]  It's like the equivalent of a misdemeanor.
[55:12.010 --> 55:14.990]  Here, so... I mean, is this... I mean, do they typically charge people?
[55:15.190 --> 55:17.510]  And it's something that happened in Sweden, and they filed a complaint.
[55:17.870 --> 55:22.430]  I mean, maybe if it was a murder or a felony, then that's something that they would charge.
[55:22.430 --> 55:29.090]  There are indications of different crimes that Sweden has charged people extra, you know, outside of Sweden with.
[55:29.370 --> 55:37.070]  But they have charged plenty of people outside of Sweden with crimes in the past when they weren't, you know, when they weren't in Sweden.
[55:37.950 --> 55:39.470]  So, I suppose they could do it.
[55:39.930 --> 55:40.610]  Of this magnitude?
[55:40.830 --> 55:42.230]  I mean, it's a really minor crime.
[55:42.390 --> 55:43.030]  It's like...
[55:43.030 --> 55:44.530]  Well, I mean, that's a matter of opinion.
[55:44.610 --> 55:49.130]  Yeah, and, you know, we don't want to go down that road where we're trivializing the accusations.
[55:49.130 --> 55:59.950]  But we do have to look at it in perspective and see if this is the kind of thing that would be charged in a different country, and what kinds of things have happened in the past, and how they've been treated in the U.K.
[56:00.530 --> 56:02.710]  But, I mean, well, if you look at it...
[56:02.710 --> 56:04.970]  Well, first, you can't look at it from how the U.K.
[56:04.970 --> 56:11.910]  is going to charge him, because an extradition has nothing to do with, you know, the country's laws that they're being extradited from.
[56:12.450 --> 56:17.630]  And no crime was ever committed in the U.K., so there's no jurisdiction for them to charge him with anything.
[56:17.810 --> 56:21.450]  Well, now the crime is bail violation, so that is...
[56:21.450 --> 56:30.090]  I mean, we don't have in our phone books, I don't think any of us, a Swedish law expert, and that's kind of a shame, but I don't know where to get one.
[56:30.230 --> 56:32.470]  Well, maybe we can look for one this week coming up.
[56:32.610 --> 56:36.690]  We're out of time, though, and I want to thank everybody for calling in and for being part of the discussion.
[56:36.690 --> 56:44.370]  If you'd like to continue the dialogue, you can write to us through e-mail, and please say whatever is on your mind, and maybe we'll read it on the air.
[56:44.970 --> 56:48.830]  O-T-H at 2600.com is our e-mail address.
[56:49.610 --> 56:55.770]  And, yeah, all kinds of exciting things happening in the computer world, the hacker world.
[56:56.190 --> 56:58.570]  We have the Hacker Camp coming up next summer.
[56:58.570 --> 57:01.210]  We have the Chaos Communication Congress coming up in December.
[57:01.670 --> 57:05.230]  We have another HOPE conference, I believe, in the year 2014.
[57:05.230 --> 57:07.350]  And 2014, but that's way ahead.
[57:07.910 --> 57:11.150]  So, we'll be back again, I believe we'll be back again next week.
[57:11.370 --> 57:15.370]  I'm told we will be back next week, even though there is a convention happening someplace.
[57:16.350 --> 57:18.230]  We'll have all kinds of information about that, I'm sure.
[57:18.590 --> 57:21.410]  Again, O-T-H at 2600.com is our e-mail address.
[57:21.550 --> 57:22.290]  It's a manual for Off The Hook.
[57:22.730 --> 57:23.830]  Have yourselves a good night.
[01:00:35.470 --> 01:00:36.410]  Yes.
[01:00:37.610 --> 01:00:40.930]  They have said very interesting music here.
[01:00:41.570 --> 01:00:46.330]  At WBAI, August 22nd, 2012.
[01:00:46.950 --> 01:00:49.090]  That fan is way too loud.
[01:00:49.110 --> 01:00:49.210]  So, yeah, I think it's the Wi-Fiرض.
[01:00:49.230 --> 01:00:49.330]  I love you.
[01:00:49.330 --> 01:00:49.370]  It's a great multinational work aroundthree billion soldiers.
[01:00:49.370 --> 01:00:49.390]  It's good for yourself.
[01:00:49.770 --> 01:00:49.830]  So, yeah.