[00:06.700 --> 00:09.760]  Hello, this is your old friend, Radio's Uncle Sidney.
[00:09.980 --> 00:11.860]  Well, it's fundraising time again.
[00:12.060 --> 00:16.200]  And like you, I can't help but notice how badly these things are crapping out.
[00:16.480 --> 00:18.340]  Geez, we've tried everything on you rubes.
[00:18.560 --> 00:24.560]  Magic beans, tinfoil mind reading hats, even them special glasses that let you see folks naked.
[00:24.800 --> 00:26.740]  Hell, we even told the truth a few times.
[00:27.000 --> 00:27.740]  No dice.
[00:27.940 --> 00:29.280]  I thought we was doomed.
[00:29.740 --> 00:30.900]  However, there's a solution.
[00:31.040 --> 00:32.060]  Yes, a solution.
[00:32.320 --> 00:34.900]  And it was right under our noses the whole time.
[00:34.900 --> 00:37.700]  Yes, moms and dads, girls and boys.
[00:37.940 --> 00:52.200]  Yes, from now on, as supplies last, with every subscription to our beloved WBAI, that's WBAI.org, with every sub, we'll send you, yes, you, a liberally weighted nickel bag of genuine medical marijuana.
[00:52.600 --> 01:02.120]  Oh, yes, we've come into possession of a vast amount of this green and natural miracle weed, which, by the way, has been thoroughly tested by our staff.
[01:02.120 --> 01:11.100]  So, if you want to support Radio WBAI and have your mind thoroughly blown, then call today and join the WBAI family.
[01:11.360 --> 01:12.660]  You'll be glad you did.
[01:13.180 --> 01:14.300]  This offer void.
[01:14.440 --> 01:15.340]  We're prohibited by law.
[01:15.460 --> 01:16.820]  The preceding were the work of satire.
[01:16.920 --> 01:17.700]  Please don't arrest us.
[01:24.130 --> 01:30.230]  And this is WBAI New York, where it's Wednesday evening, 7 o'clock.
[01:30.670 --> 01:37.330]  And I'm about to hit a button on a CD player that says it skips, but it's the only one available for this particular intro music.
[01:37.330 --> 01:41.170]  So let's all join hands and pray that it doesn't go bad.
[01:41.550 --> 01:42.890]  Off the Hook begins now.
[01:48.150 --> 01:50.010]  The telephone keeps ringing.
[01:50.410 --> 01:52.550]  So I ripped it off the wall.
[01:53.590 --> 01:55.530]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:56.130 --> 01:58.050]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:58.750 --> 02:00.890]  We couldn't get much worse.
[02:03.650 --> 02:06.310]  Fun diddly bump for the best, expect the worst.
[02:06.970 --> 02:08.810]  I hope that's understood.
[02:09.050 --> 02:09.790]  Fun diddly bump!
[03:05.960 --> 03:07.460]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[03:07.560 --> 03:08.420]  The program is Off the Hook.
[03:08.520 --> 03:10.900]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you, joined tonight by Mike.
[03:10.900 --> 03:11.300]  Hi.
[03:11.520 --> 03:11.920]  Rob T.
[03:12.060 --> 03:12.500]  Firefly.
[03:12.720 --> 03:13.040]  Good evening.
[03:13.400 --> 03:13.740]  Jim.
[03:14.100 --> 03:14.360]  Hello.
[03:14.640 --> 03:15.160]  Welcome back.
[03:15.500 --> 03:16.220]  Bernie S.
[03:16.400 --> 03:16.780]  somewhere.
[03:17.140 --> 03:18.380]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[03:18.860 --> 03:21.060]  And is that not Kevin I see over there?
[03:21.220 --> 03:22.060]  Unfortunately it is.
[03:22.140 --> 03:22.880]  What do you mean unfortunately?
[03:23.180 --> 03:24.420]  Well, why would you say unfortunately?
[03:24.880 --> 03:27.600]  Shouldn't it be a good thing that you've made it to the studio after so long?
[03:28.220 --> 03:28.660]  Maybe.
[03:28.980 --> 03:29.640]  We'll see.
[03:29.980 --> 03:31.660]  We haven't seen you since Hope No.
[03:31.740 --> 03:36.600]  9, which concluded, oh, what was it, on the 15th of July.
[03:37.040 --> 03:38.080]  How have you been since then?
[03:38.080 --> 03:39.100]  Very well.
[03:39.380 --> 03:40.120]  Well, that's good.
[03:40.340 --> 03:41.060]  That's good.
[03:41.300 --> 03:43.740]  Well, hopefully that'll continue now that you're here.
[03:43.920 --> 03:44.260]  I don't know.
[03:44.360 --> 03:45.160]  Now I might have just shipped it.
[03:45.820 --> 03:46.220]  Yeah.
[03:46.400 --> 03:47.280]  Well, we'll see.
[03:47.400 --> 03:47.680]  We'll see.
[03:48.540 --> 03:51.020]  Bernie, anything to report down in Pennsylvania land?
[03:52.580 --> 04:02.780]  Well, yesterday and the day before, I was at the ACES conference in Philly, which is a big international trade show for the security industry.
[04:03.520 --> 04:19.100]  And I like to go to shows like trade shows like that to keep up on the latest in electronic surveillance technology and how governments are throwing lots of money and grants for get communities to deploy this stuff.
[04:19.300 --> 04:22.460]  And it's enlightening and kind of scary at the same time.
[04:23.240 --> 04:24.080]  Yeah, definitely.
[04:25.360 --> 04:30.500]  Well, the important thing is that you came out of it enlightened and educated and able to share with the rest of us.
[04:30.620 --> 04:31.700]  Yeah, we should all be informed.
[04:31.940 --> 04:35.800]  And I encourage anybody next time this year to go to...
[04:35.800 --> 04:37.900]  It's ASIS is the name of the conference.
[04:37.900 --> 04:43.780]  And it's like a Disneyland of electronic surveillance technology vendors.
[04:44.100 --> 04:44.660]  It's really great.
[04:44.660 --> 04:44.840]  Wow.
[04:45.020 --> 04:50.460]  Disneyland of... That's... I guess that sort of... They fit together pretty well.
[04:50.840 --> 04:51.560]  Very much, yeah.
[04:51.720 --> 04:52.480]  Disney surveillance.
[04:52.480 --> 04:53.780]  It's all pretty much the same thing.
[04:55.000 --> 04:55.360]  Wow.
[04:55.500 --> 04:55.720]  Okay.
[04:56.280 --> 04:58.520]  Anything else happening in the world that I need to know about?
[04:58.540 --> 05:00.960]  Because I've been sort of away from it for a little while.
[05:01.160 --> 05:01.600]  I've been working on it.
[05:01.600 --> 05:03.220]  Well, there's a lot of stuff going on in the world.
[05:03.380 --> 05:03.940]  I mean, it's...
[05:03.940 --> 05:04.560]  Obviously, yes.
[05:04.740 --> 05:07.660]  I meant particular to... This particular program is what I meant.
[05:07.920 --> 05:09.440]  Well, you mean like news-wise?
[05:10.140 --> 05:10.880]  News-wise?
[05:10.880 --> 05:11.140]  News-wise?
[05:12.620 --> 05:15.020]  Evil legislation that perhaps has gone through?
[05:15.480 --> 05:19.200]  More Big Brother Orwellian type things that we focus upon week after week?
[05:19.560 --> 05:20.060]  Stuff like that.
[05:20.060 --> 05:41.220]  Well, I think a federal district court judge ruled this past week that having an open Wi-Fi connection does not make you liable for users of it who may download copyright movies.
[05:41.220 --> 05:43.040]  It doesn't make you liable for that.
[05:43.160 --> 05:55.040]  And basically what the judge said is that people don't have a legal responsibility to prevent others from violating copyright law through your open Wi-Fi connection.
[05:55.040 --> 05:59.900]  She found no requirement that that's the case.
[06:00.020 --> 06:04.120]  Of course, it's only a California district court decision, so it doesn't affect all of us.
[06:04.120 --> 06:09.280]  Only it affects really people in that part of California, but we'll see.
[06:09.380 --> 06:23.820]  I hope that that becomes a Supreme Court case and then people can have their open Wi-Fi connections without worrying about being sued by copyright troll lawyers who want you to pay a lot of money or go to court.
[06:24.120 --> 06:27.380]  Yeah, you know, these copyright people, they are out of control.
[06:27.380 --> 06:45.620]  We talk about this week after week, but, you know, oftentimes in news reports that you might read in other places, the people who are advocating copyright protection, quote unquote, are seen as the underdogs, as the victims of piracy and things like that.
[06:45.620 --> 07:01.120]  But, you know, I'd like to focus more on how they're the aggressors and how they're shutting down legitimate forms of expression and how they really are gaining so much ground and so much technological ability.
[07:01.640 --> 07:07.300]  And that's something that I want to focus on in weeks to come as we get more involved in challenging that.
[07:07.400 --> 07:13.320]  And of course, we always want to hear from our listeners with words as to their experiences and things like that.
[07:13.320 --> 07:15.040]  OTH at 2600.com.
[07:15.220 --> 07:16.240]  That's our email address.
[07:16.420 --> 07:16.900]  Mike, what do you have?
[07:17.140 --> 07:19.020]  Yeah, so this just happened today.
[07:19.180 --> 07:25.760]  The FISA, one of our favorite bills, which is the thing that lets the government spy without a warrant.
[07:25.960 --> 07:27.000]  How do you spell that acronym?
[07:27.180 --> 07:28.140]  F-I-S-A.
[07:28.240 --> 07:28.540]  All right.
[07:28.900 --> 07:34.100]  It got the House passed today a reauthorization for it.
[07:34.380 --> 07:38.780]  So five more years if it all goes according to the plan.
[07:39.000 --> 07:40.400]  This is the warrantless wiretapping thing?
[07:41.060 --> 07:42.820]  Yeah, warrantless everything.
[07:43.280 --> 07:44.680]  Wiretapping, warrantless.
[07:44.680 --> 07:45.280]  It's amazing.
[07:45.900 --> 07:46.920]  It saves paper, doesn't it?
[07:47.200 --> 07:47.220]  Yeah.
[07:47.680 --> 07:53.720]  There's this court, the FISA court, which we've talked about in the past, which is basically required to approve everything that comes before it.
[07:53.880 --> 07:57.020]  But isn't that something that they're impatient with as well?
[07:57.360 --> 07:58.200]  That's not enough?
[07:58.320 --> 07:59.000]  They want more?
[07:59.300 --> 08:00.620]  I don't know what more they could want.
[08:00.720 --> 08:06.800]  There's a provision in the law, and this is a provision that exists now, that they can start the wiretapping and then get the court order.
[08:06.800 --> 08:08.280]  They have up to a week to do so.
[08:08.620 --> 08:10.280]  So I don't know what kind of hurry they're in.
[08:11.100 --> 08:12.720]  118 people voted against it.
[08:12.940 --> 08:14.000]  301 voted for it.
[08:14.120 --> 08:15.120]  But I guess there's some...
[08:15.120 --> 08:15.940]  By the people you mean representatives.
[08:16.140 --> 08:16.280]  Yeah.
[08:16.440 --> 08:16.780]  All right.
[08:16.920 --> 08:22.180]  I don't think they would ever trust, like, the people, capital, you know, P, to vote on this.
[08:23.620 --> 08:24.640]  And this is in the House.
[08:24.820 --> 08:25.440]  This is in the House.
[08:25.580 --> 08:26.920]  So it goes to the Senate next.
[08:29.220 --> 08:36.540]  And the Senator Wyden from Oregon, who's, I guess, the only senator to believe in civil liberties, he's put a hold on the bill in the Senate.
[08:36.720 --> 08:42.460]  He says, you know, hey, hey, all right, you can do this, but you have to just, like, tell us how many Americans you spy on.
[08:43.040 --> 08:47.280]  And the wiretapping services say that this is impossible.
[08:47.280 --> 08:48.960]  They can't possibly know such a thing.
[08:49.040 --> 08:50.280]  And they don't want it.
[08:50.440 --> 08:53.020]  They can't tell how many people they're wiretapping?
[08:53.220 --> 08:55.360]  How do they wiretap anybody then, if they can't tell that?
[08:55.540 --> 08:59.140]  My guess is they just wiretap everyone, and that's too big for them to count.
[08:59.260 --> 08:59.760]  But I don't know.
[08:59.760 --> 09:05.940]  So just, you know, what I suggest, people come up with a worst-case scenario as to how it could possibly be.
[09:06.060 --> 09:09.200]  And that's pretty much the goal of these folks here.
[09:09.280 --> 09:11.520]  This is probably what they want and what they're shooting for.
[09:11.640 --> 09:13.720]  So that's the best way to understand it.
[09:14.260 --> 09:16.280]  It's not good.
[09:17.140 --> 09:31.780]  There's another story, a slight update to something we talked a little bit about last week, which was the database of a million Apple UUIDs that was leaked by Anonymous, reportedly off a laptop of an FBI agent.
[09:32.280 --> 09:32.640]  Now...
[09:32.640 --> 09:33.960]  So it didn't come from the FBI?
[09:34.300 --> 09:35.100]  That's what they're saying.
[09:35.160 --> 09:36.120]  It didn't come from Apple?
[09:36.880 --> 09:38.160]  That's also what they're saying.
[09:38.160 --> 09:39.140]  So who did it come from?
[09:39.540 --> 09:43.380]  Apparently, it came from a small Florida publishing company called Blue Toad.
[09:44.680 --> 09:45.480]  Blue Toad?
[09:45.600 --> 09:45.740]  Yeah.
[09:45.940 --> 09:46.900]  Who is Blue Toad?
[09:46.900 --> 09:47.740]  What's that all about?
[09:47.980 --> 09:48.540]  I don't know.
[09:48.820 --> 10:01.400]  But apparently, their CEO, Paul DeHart, has claimed that he downloaded, his firm downloaded the data released by Anonymous, compared it to their own database, and found a 98% correlation between the two data sets.
[10:01.540 --> 10:04.480]  So based on this, they're saying that it was their data, not the FBI's.
[10:04.740 --> 10:09.240]  And they had how many millions of subscriber bits of information?
[10:10.120 --> 10:12.680]  Anonymous posted 1 million and claimed to have 12 million.
[10:12.680 --> 10:14.620]  So why does this company have 12 million?
[10:15.080 --> 10:16.700]  What's their reason for that?
[10:17.040 --> 10:17.980]  I don't know.
[10:18.040 --> 10:20.060]  But it seems awfully suspicious, I think.
[10:20.160 --> 10:30.780]  I think there's a good chance that maybe this small Florida publishing company, if it indeed exists, was maybe made to take responsibility, take a fall for it.
[10:30.800 --> 10:32.520]  Well, it should be easy enough to find out if they exist.
[10:32.820 --> 10:37.180]  And as far as whether or not they're taking a fall for the FBI, that's a serious allegation there.
[10:37.220 --> 10:38.720]  So we got to look into that as well.
[10:38.720 --> 10:40.460]  But there's all kinds of other possibilities.
[10:40.940 --> 10:47.320]  One is that they gave the data to the FBI and it got taken from them, either illegally or illegally or whatever.
[10:47.800 --> 11:02.400]  But really, even if they're telling the truth, which they'd be the first party in any of this to be telling the truth, but if they were telling the truth, then it's really frightening that a company that no one ever heard of, that no one is aware of doing business with,
[11:02.580 --> 11:04.100]  has data about 12 million people.
[11:04.880 --> 11:07.280]  That is frightening enough.
[11:07.280 --> 11:08.080]  Absolutely.
[11:08.380 --> 11:08.720]  Absolutely.
[11:09.720 --> 11:10.280]  All right.
[11:10.340 --> 11:14.460]  Well, listen, we have some important information that we're going to share tonight.
[11:14.600 --> 11:16.880]  We have an interview with Julia O'Dwyer.
[11:17.200 --> 11:34.180]  You may recall she was on the show once before talking about her son, Richard, who was being extradited to the United States from the UK for the crime of running a website that told people where they could download TV shows, something that was not even a crime in his hometown in the United Kingdom.
[11:34.340 --> 11:42.580]  However, due to some bizarre treaty, the United Kingdom is allowing him to be extradited to the United States for prosecution.
[11:42.660 --> 11:43.600]  It's insane.
[11:43.760 --> 11:44.180]  It's bizarre.
[11:44.380 --> 11:51.500]  And in a few minutes, you'll hear, as we visited Julia at her home in the UK, you'll hear her story and what she's been going through.
[11:51.580 --> 11:57.360]  But before we get into that, something that we're doing here at the radio station today that's rather important.
[11:57.600 --> 12:01.800]  Yeah, I know your eyes are going to roll into the back of your heads when you say that we're doing a fundraiser.
[12:01.980 --> 12:03.160]  But this one's different.
[12:03.360 --> 12:09.140]  This one is something that is designed to make it more palatable in the future.
[12:09.320 --> 12:14.220]  Imagine, imagine if you will, a BAI without fundraisers.
[12:14.400 --> 12:17.540]  And what I mean by that is a BAI that remains BAI.
[12:17.620 --> 12:20.380]  It doesn't turn into a country 99.5 and has no fundraisers.
[12:20.460 --> 12:20.640]  No, no.
[12:21.040 --> 12:29.640]  No commercials, alternative programming, controversial subject material, all the stuff that you've come to know and love, but no fundraisers.
[12:29.780 --> 12:30.840]  How is that possible?
[12:30.980 --> 12:33.480]  It's possible if you become a BAI buddy.
[12:34.060 --> 12:39.120]  And that might be a term that you've heard thrown around on the station today quite a bit because it just got introduced today.
[12:39.640 --> 12:42.400]  And Jim has a big book that says BAI, what was it?
[12:42.460 --> 12:43.500]  The BAI buddy manual?
[12:44.600 --> 12:45.160]  Okay.
[12:45.220 --> 12:47.000]  It's really, it's simple.
[12:47.320 --> 12:49.100]  It's a great idea.
[12:50.240 --> 12:55.720]  And it's something that other stations are doing, other networks are doing, and it's working.
[12:56.480 --> 13:02.920]  The idea is to donate a small amount, something on the order of say $10 a month.
[13:02.920 --> 13:06.960]  I think that comes to 33 cents a day or something like that.
[13:07.100 --> 13:08.920]  But imagine $10 a month.
[13:09.140 --> 13:09.700]  All right.
[13:09.840 --> 13:17.820]  If we get 10 people today to call 212-209-2950 and say, yes, I'll become a BAI.
[13:17.920 --> 13:20.780]  Well, you don't have to say I'll become a BAI buddy, but you will become a BAI buddy.
[13:20.900 --> 13:22.060]  You just can't avoid that.
[13:22.640 --> 13:30.220]  But by pledging as little as $10 a month, that will basically enable us to have less fundraising.
[13:30.480 --> 13:32.860]  So for instance, we need 10 people today to call in.
[13:33.020 --> 13:34.480]  212-209-2950.
[13:34.720 --> 13:35.800]  Pledge $10 a month.
[13:36.020 --> 13:36.880]  Become a BAI buddy.
[13:37.000 --> 13:38.520]  You'll get all kinds of interesting things.
[13:38.560 --> 13:45.580]  You'll get the BAI tote bag, a BAI buddy membership card, and a bunch of other things.
[13:45.660 --> 13:55.100]  The important thing though is that you're supporting the radio station and you're making it possible for us not to have to do this in the future and have these month-long fundraisers.
[13:55.100 --> 14:02.320]  This is just a day or two that we're doing here in September, but October is going to be massive fundraising like we do every October.
[14:02.500 --> 14:06.760]  However, if we get a really, really strong response, we want 10 people today.
[14:06.760 --> 14:14.740]  But if we get another 20 between now and October, we can get rid of one day of that fundraiser for us.
[14:14.900 --> 14:16.340]  And that would be monumental.
[14:16.960 --> 14:20.300]  There are all kinds of facts and figures that are being thrown around here.
[14:20.380 --> 14:30.460]  For instance, if 415 people, not very many people, but if 415 people were to do this, were to pledge $10 a month, we wouldn't have to do the September thing at all.
[14:30.720 --> 14:32.540]  That could just be wiped off the map.
[14:33.180 --> 14:38.000]  And slightly higher numbers allow other drives to just disappear.
[14:38.540 --> 14:48.560]  If everybody who was a BAI member, everybody who has pledged over the past year were to do this, we wouldn't have to have any fundraising at all on the air.
[14:48.800 --> 14:49.460]  And imagine that.
[14:49.620 --> 14:50.560]  Imagine how cool that is.
[14:50.620 --> 15:05.960]  Now, in this universe of kickstarting and all kinds of online fundraising, what better way to show support for this place and to keep it strong and build upon that than for people to pledge what they can afford, small amounts.
[15:06.080 --> 15:10.980]  And again, I should point out, $10 is... I can say that a fairly small amount, $10 a month.
[15:11.540 --> 15:13.220]  But you can donate more than that.
[15:13.340 --> 15:17.180]  If somebody were to donate, say $100 a month, that's all we would need today.
[15:17.320 --> 15:18.300]  That's 10 times 10.
[15:18.440 --> 15:21.780]  So that would basically cover us and we'd be done for today.
[15:22.140 --> 15:31.280]  So a couple of people doing that, if two people pledged $100 a month, then we could wipe out a day of the October fundraiser from two people.
[15:31.560 --> 15:38.980]  So imagine if a bunch of people donate other amounts as well, $10 a month.
[15:39.280 --> 15:41.580]  It really is... In fact, I'm going to do this myself.
[15:41.720 --> 15:42.820]  I'm putting my money where my mouth is.
[15:43.380 --> 15:45.280]  Just to show that this is a good idea.
[15:45.400 --> 15:49.000]  This is something that can work if we all join forces together.
[15:50.100 --> 15:53.680]  We can have a better sound and we can do more on this place.
[15:53.740 --> 15:55.800]  We can play more interviews like the one we're going to play right now.
[15:55.960 --> 15:59.880]  So what I am going to do... So I'm going to launch into this interview.
[16:00.240 --> 16:00.800]  All right.
[16:00.920 --> 16:06.420]  And we're going to hear Julia O'Dwyer as we spoke to her at her home in the UK, I believe in May.
[16:07.120 --> 16:18.120]  And you'll hear firsthand what she's been going through as the mom of somebody who's being extradited to this country to face all kinds of ridiculous charges that were not even a crime in the country that he lived in.
[16:19.220 --> 16:21.520]  And that's something I think people need to hear.
[16:21.740 --> 16:30.220]  Now, it's better for you to hear that than to hear me asking for support week after week, every few months.
[16:30.480 --> 16:31.840]  We're trying to address that.
[16:31.960 --> 16:35.320]  We're aware that that is something that people don't want as much.
[16:35.960 --> 16:42.000]  You listen to BAI for the sound, for the information, for the interviews, for the various other things that we can bring you.
[16:42.380 --> 16:47.520]  Well, we can bring you that, but it takes people to support the place, to keep it going.
[16:47.700 --> 16:49.900]  So 212-209-2950.
[16:50.720 --> 16:54.640]  If 10 people call today, then we're done and we don't have to worry about that.
[16:55.420 --> 17:01.620]  And if 10 people don't call, then we're going to be back later on begging some more because there's just no other way to do this.
[17:02.460 --> 17:04.860]  Again, 212-209-2950.
[17:05.780 --> 17:06.820]  I'm going to go into the interview.
[17:06.940 --> 17:08.720]  You guys in the studio have anything to add to this?
[17:09.180 --> 17:13.820]  I just want to say that this is not necessarily a new idea in the world of non-profits.
[17:14.260 --> 17:17.820]  I do this sort of thing for a couple other non-profits I support.
[17:18.180 --> 17:21.940]  And it's really not a lot of money every month, $10, whatever.
[17:22.640 --> 17:28.420]  But then they sent me a statement at the end of the year saying how much money I've given to these causes that I support.
[17:28.560 --> 17:29.420]  And it adds up.
[17:29.600 --> 17:32.240]  And if other people are doing this, it adds up.
[17:32.320 --> 17:34.760]  And I hope our listeners will help us in this.
[17:34.920 --> 17:36.340]  I see we have three calls on the line, which is great.
[17:36.420 --> 17:37.900]  So it just takes another seven more people.
[17:38.540 --> 17:42.220]  If you count me, then that's six more people pledging $10 a month.
[17:42.380 --> 17:46.320]  And you know, $10 a month, it really is not that much.
[17:46.440 --> 17:47.320]  33 cents a day.
[17:47.400 --> 17:50.180]  If someone walked up to you once a day and said, can I have 33 cents?
[17:50.240 --> 17:51.400]  That would be annoying as hell, I know.
[17:51.520 --> 17:54.280]  But you probably have the 33 cents in your pocket.
[17:54.380 --> 18:04.260]  Now imagine that contributing to this place and keeping us fund drive free and just 100% programming, that would be worth 33 cents a day.
[18:04.340 --> 18:10.100]  And I dare say, there's very little else that you could pay 33 cents a day for and maintain that level of quality.
[18:10.300 --> 18:10.880]  Yes, indeed.
[18:11.060 --> 18:22.520]  And if you become a BAI, buddy, in addition to the benefits of cutting down on the amount of fundraising that we have to do on the air and supporting the station and this show, there are all these sort of goodies you get.
[18:22.620 --> 18:26.980]  You can get a tote bag, you can become eligible for on-air giveaways that are going to happen.
[18:27.040 --> 18:30.980]  You get to participate in a member perks discount program at certain local shops and museums.
[18:31.700 --> 18:37.600]  And once your donation meets or exceeds $25 for the year, you also become a full voting member of the station.
[18:37.860 --> 18:42.860]  So become a BAI buddy with benefits and call 212-209-2950.
[18:43.100 --> 18:47.780]  And those benefits extend to people outside the broadcast range as well.
[18:47.780 --> 18:51.860]  So you can still vote and you'll still get the tote bag and all kinds of other things.
[18:52.040 --> 18:54.040]  And it's a good feeling.
[18:54.160 --> 18:54.420]  It really is.
[18:54.540 --> 18:55.760]  212-209-2950.
[18:56.000 --> 18:57.080]  Let's go into the interview now.
[18:57.080 --> 18:58.080]  Julia O'Dwyer.
[18:58.300 --> 19:01.860]  This is Kyle and I visiting her in the UK last May.
[19:02.540 --> 19:02.740]  All right.
[19:02.840 --> 19:11.400]  We're here with Julia O'Dwyer, who is going through quite an adventure with the legal system of both the UK and the US.
[19:12.200 --> 19:16.980]  Your son, Richard, we've had him on... Actually, we've talked about the case on Off the Hook.
[19:17.740 --> 19:34.860]  Your son, Richard, basically has been targeted by the US government for extradition from the United Kingdom, even though he has not been accused of committing a crime in the UK and has not been in the United States since he was five years old.
[19:37.180 --> 19:46.220]  We've talked about this in the past, this case, having to do with running afoul of the Motion Picture Association of America.
[19:48.140 --> 19:50.340]  This is pretty much a first, isn't it?
[19:50.500 --> 20:09.140]  I mean, there are other people who are being threatened with extradition, but nothing of this nature, where a college kid simply posting links on a website is threatened with being dragged into another country to face prosecution and imprisonment for something of this nature.
[20:10.580 --> 20:11.980]  Is this something...
[20:11.980 --> 20:14.620]  are there any other people who are facing something like this?
[20:15.780 --> 20:17.220]  No, not really.
[20:17.440 --> 20:32.640]  There are other people facing extradition to America for different alleged offences, but all of those people have never been... not been to America.
[20:33.040 --> 20:49.160]  So... and some of those people, what they have been accused of is alleged internet-associated crimes from the UK, from, you know, from sitting...
[20:49.160 --> 20:53.900]  Obviously, if you have a website, it goes to the whole world, doesn't it?
[20:54.000 --> 20:55.600]  Wherever there is internet access.
[20:56.560 --> 20:57.240]  So...
[20:58.560 --> 21:03.700]  There are a few people facing allegations of different crimes.
[21:03.980 --> 21:09.380]  Crimes that would be crimes here in this country, or things that are tied to something a bit more serious.
[21:10.020 --> 21:10.520]  Well...
[21:10.520 --> 21:13.460]  Not excusing it, not saying that they should be extradited, but just...
[21:13.460 --> 21:18.240]  It seems like they maybe tie it to terrorism or international intrigue somehow.
[21:18.520 --> 21:25.200]  But this is a kid with a website that is not committing a crime in this country, and they're going after him.
[21:25.200 --> 21:26.020]  Yeah, yeah.
[21:26.360 --> 21:31.940]  I mean, yes, some of those other cases have been accused of terrorism.
[21:33.800 --> 21:38.480]  But... and I'm not, you know, I don't know anything about guilt or innocence in those matters.
[21:39.940 --> 21:48.860]  All I know is, in terms of what Richard is alleged to have done, he wasn't intending to commit a crime.
[21:48.860 --> 21:51.100]  He set his website up as a hobby.
[21:53.900 --> 21:59.600]  And he didn't think he was anything to do with America by doing that in his own country.
[22:00.060 --> 22:08.000]  Now, if it turns out that what he did is a crime in this country, then he should be charged with an offence in this country.
[22:08.260 --> 22:09.720]  Because this is where he was.
[22:10.420 --> 22:12.460]  Now, it doesn't work the other way, does it?
[22:12.640 --> 22:36.080]  Well, no, it doesn't, because actually I discovered recently a freedom of information request from the British Home Office that somebody kindly sent to me, which states that not one American citizen has been extradited from the US to the UK under this current law for any offence which they have committed on US soil.
[22:36.080 --> 22:45.180]  So, you know, it's quite clear that America protects its own citizens in a better way than the British government protects its citizens.
[22:45.360 --> 22:49.200]  So, what we want is, we don't want any favours off America, we just want the same.
[22:49.720 --> 22:53.300]  So, how is it that your government agreed to this in the first place?
[22:53.300 --> 22:56.120]  It sounds insane that they let this happen.
[22:56.120 --> 22:59.700]  Well, it wasn't the current government, it was the previous, the Blair government.
[23:00.300 --> 23:07.780]  And it, I mean, you know, if you, you know, just to remind you, this all came about after the Twin Towers terrorist attack.
[23:07.980 --> 23:16.460]  So, it was a knee-jerk response from America and from Britain to that, to try and combat terrorism.
[23:16.460 --> 23:37.600]  And the thing is, the British government signed up to it much more readily than America did because America was concerned about offending the Irish-American movement because there was concerns that there might be ex-IRA terrorists sheltering in America.
[23:37.920 --> 23:49.160]  And those people didn't want to see themselves getting shipped back to the UK, you see, to face charges on terrorist crimes associated with their IRA membership.
[23:49.160 --> 23:49.820]  Interesting.
[23:49.920 --> 24:05.560]  So, America took quite a long time to ratify that treaty and they made sure they got reassurance from the British government that no IRA terrorists would be extradited from America to the UK.
[24:05.920 --> 24:10.560]  But Britain just signed it up with no parliamentary scrutiny.
[24:10.860 --> 24:17.220]  It was pushed through the back door and signed up by the Queen who probably never even got a proper chance to read it or understand it.
[24:17.220 --> 24:30.380]  And ever since that day, people have been fighting against it, including some of the MPs in Parliament who said, who objected to having this law pushed through without the normal scrutiny.
[24:30.500 --> 24:33.520]  And so, we've been paying the price ever since.
[24:33.720 --> 24:44.000]  While American citizens have been offered greater protections and they don't get extradited because, you know, America's got five times the population of the UK.
[24:44.000 --> 24:52.940]  So, potentially, there should be five times as many people committing crimes on the internet, you know, potentially, that ought to be extradited to the UK.
[24:52.940 --> 24:54.900]  But nobody's looking for them.
[24:55.040 --> 24:56.480]  Nobody's sending them over.
[24:56.700 --> 25:01.060]  Do you know if other countries in the EU have similar treaties with the US?
[25:01.680 --> 25:03.880]  Well, a lot of countries have treaties.
[25:04.160 --> 25:07.100]  You know, we do need our extradition treaties, don't we, obviously.
[25:07.340 --> 25:10.580]  But other countries protect their citizens.
[25:11.000 --> 25:17.720]  For example, Ireland will not allow the extradition of one of its citizens for something that they've done in Ireland.
[25:17.720 --> 25:23.780]  And I think some countries won't extradite their people at all to America.
[25:24.000 --> 25:29.660]  And I'm not too sure, but I think France and Germany are great to protect their citizens.
[25:29.740 --> 25:37.220]  You know, not extraditing them or allowing them to be tried in their own country if they've done something in their own country.
[25:37.220 --> 25:44.100]  Well, one thing that we were discussing a little bit before was the United States, the Amanda Knox case, for instance.
[25:44.160 --> 25:45.040]  Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
[25:45.100 --> 25:47.540]  She was the girl, I believe, from Seattle.
[25:47.720 --> 25:48.220]  Yes, yes.
[25:48.220 --> 25:51.460]  She's in Seattle now, and she was a student in Italy.
[25:51.840 --> 25:52.980]  She's accused of murder?
[25:53.200 --> 25:53.580]  Is that it?
[25:53.960 --> 25:54.960]  Yeah, she was involved.
[25:55.180 --> 26:02.920]  They couldn't really... it was dubious, the whole thing, but she was involved with a sort of love triangle that went sour.
[26:02.920 --> 26:04.020]  I'll say.
[26:04.360 --> 26:04.560]  Oh boy.
[26:04.740 --> 26:14.040]  There was a horrific murder in Italy, and she was implicated, and then basically was able to get back to the U.S., or found innocent some way or another in the Italian courts.
[26:14.260 --> 26:19.160]  The Italian courts want to try her in Italy, and the United States' reaction to that is to say no.
[26:19.380 --> 26:34.180]  Well, she's had a trial, and she was found not guilty, but they are potentially... the Italians will appeal that decision, will want to appeal, and as such, if they do want to appeal, they'll want her back there for the appeal.
[26:34.400 --> 26:38.720]  But America, I understand, has already stated that they won't be allowing her to go back.
[26:38.900 --> 26:53.120]  Then you have the case of the soldier in Afghanistan who massacred a bunch of villagers, and was ferried out of the country secretly and protected by the United States, brought back to this country, never even the possibility of him standing trial in that country,
[26:53.120 --> 27:02.060]  and yet we bring people routinely who have never been to the United States accused of being enemy combatants for trial and imprisonment at Guantanamo.
[27:02.260 --> 27:04.080]  So, yeah, it's definitely a disparity.
[27:04.080 --> 27:24.280]  I mean, it's crazy, really, because I found out recently that the very first person extradited to America under this law was actually... was actually an American who was in the UK, and he was accused of terrorist crimes of aiding the enemy.
[27:24.920 --> 27:35.980]  So what he did was he supplied waterproof clothing and socks to another guy who was a terrorist.
[27:36.580 --> 27:42.860]  So for supplying somebody with waterproof outdoor clothing, they called him a terrorist.
[27:43.600 --> 27:49.440]  And he's there, he's over there in jail for life, or however many hundreds of years they want to imprison him in America.
[27:49.440 --> 27:54.360]  I suppose if you hold the door for somebody who's accused of terrorism, you could be subject to that.
[27:55.160 --> 27:56.060]  Aiding and abetting.
[27:56.640 --> 27:59.880]  Right, right, or you pull out a chair for them, any sort of gesture.
[28:00.240 --> 28:23.240]  I'm told that if, for example, if you were a lawyer and somebody came to you who may have turned out at some point to be a terrorist, if a man came to you for some legal advice and then he was found to be a terrorist, the lawyer would be considered a terrorist also for aiding the enemy.
[28:23.520 --> 28:30.460]  He might never even know the guy was a terrorist, but he gave him legal advice, so he would be labeled in the same way.
[28:30.640 --> 28:31.620]  In the United States?
[28:31.620 --> 28:32.280]  Everybody's a terrorist, yeah.
[28:32.280 --> 28:33.300]  Everybody's a terrorist, yeah.
[28:33.460 --> 28:38.180]  Because we have such a thing as lawyer-client confidentiality, which I think still exists.
[28:38.480 --> 28:38.980]  I don't know.
[28:39.060 --> 28:50.380]  What this sounds like to me, I hear a lot of like, when you were talking about the Blair administration sort of acquiescing or basically signing the treaty, letting it happen.
[28:50.580 --> 28:51.440]  It sounds like posturing.
[28:51.580 --> 28:52.340]  It sounds like...
[28:52.340 --> 29:04.620]  Because I got a lot of this from after, like post-2001 stuff, that basically people were almost competing to prove their country is like stronger on terrorism.
[29:04.620 --> 29:09.340]  And it seems like it's that kind of attitude that sort of slipped through in the UK.
[29:09.720 --> 29:17.380]  And whatever, basically it allowed that relationship between the US and the UK, you know, certain other things in other areas.
[29:18.040 --> 29:20.860]  But to the fault, to a fault, because it's being abused.
[29:21.220 --> 29:25.040]  And this is a clear case of it being abused is what's happening to your son.
[29:26.080 --> 29:28.940]  Can you give us a brief timeline as to when it all began?
[29:28.940 --> 29:40.560]  Well, that began, the very first bit it began was when in the summer of 2010, Richard, I remember he was at home because of the college was closed.
[29:40.560 --> 29:43.880]  He said, oh, somebody stuck something on my website.
[29:44.760 --> 29:48.840]  So the big red thing, that thing with the eagle and all that on it.
[29:48.940 --> 29:49.940]  The splash page.
[29:51.180 --> 29:53.340]  It's been slapped on his website.
[29:53.600 --> 29:55.740]  The takedown notice from ICE or whatever.
[29:55.740 --> 30:00.020]  No, it's like saying, we've got this website and this is all about copyright infringement.
[30:00.600 --> 30:06.400]  So Richard, you know, that's... then he just thought, phew, America, nothing to do with me.
[30:06.560 --> 30:07.800]  I'll soon fix that, mate.
[30:08.200 --> 30:14.260]  So off he went and just got another domain name and got that up and running.
[30:14.500 --> 30:14.800]  And then...
[30:15.440 --> 30:16.660]  There was no contact beforehand.
[30:16.800 --> 30:18.280]  They just slapped it on his site.
[30:18.460 --> 30:18.460]  No, no, correspondence.
[30:18.460 --> 30:19.220]  No, just slapped on.
[30:19.220 --> 30:25.020]  And so nothing then until this day in November when they went to...
[30:25.020 --> 30:32.260]  They came here and they went to Richard in his student accommodation to ask him about his website and took him to be questioned.
[30:32.260 --> 30:33.940]  They had two Americans with them.
[30:34.300 --> 30:35.940]  I think they were from the ICE.
[30:36.280 --> 30:37.820]  So they visited him at school.
[30:38.040 --> 30:38.400]  They didn't...
[30:38.400 --> 30:40.900]  No, in his accommodation, his student digs, you know.
[30:40.900 --> 30:41.440]  Right.
[30:41.640 --> 30:45.880]  But he didn't, you know, as sort of... not quite an adult yet.
[30:46.060 --> 30:46.620]  That's a bit...
[30:46.620 --> 30:48.360]  That's a bit much to be...
[30:48.360 --> 30:49.740]  They knocked, you know, knocked on his...
[30:49.740 --> 30:52.260]  He was up, I think, ready to go to classes, you know.
[30:52.400 --> 30:53.380]  But that's confrontational.
[30:53.460 --> 30:57.540]  That can be really scary for a young person to be confronted when you're sort of on your own.
[30:57.680 --> 31:03.040]  You're just getting out on your own and being independent from your folks and stuff like that to not have the support.
[31:03.200 --> 31:05.120]  That's probably a scary moment for him.
[31:05.200 --> 31:09.700]  But he... I think he was probably a bit, you know, clued.
[31:09.700 --> 31:11.500]  I mean, he's never had any dealings with the police.
[31:11.700 --> 31:13.960]  So they just said, do you want to come to the...
[31:13.960 --> 31:15.560]  Well, they looked in his room to see...
[31:15.560 --> 31:18.300]  Looking for the trappings of wealth, which obviously weren't there.
[31:18.540 --> 31:20.460]  And these two American guys were there.
[31:20.860 --> 31:22.440]  They all went to the police station.
[31:22.440 --> 31:23.840]  He had to show them where it was.
[31:24.180 --> 31:27.560]  And the guys from America didn't come in on the questioning.
[31:28.520 --> 31:30.850]  But I think they, in terms of...
[31:31.420 --> 31:32.340]  Well, I don't know why they were there.
[31:32.580 --> 31:35.440]  Whether it was to confirm his identity or what.
[31:35.620 --> 31:36.960]  Or supervise the process.
[31:37.120 --> 31:37.820]  But they weren't there.
[31:37.920 --> 31:39.040]  They weren't present, you know.
[31:39.040 --> 31:42.480]  And so the police questioned him for about 45 minutes.
[31:42.480 --> 31:44.220]  And he told them all about his website.
[31:44.680 --> 31:50.900]  And the Americans then just shook his hands and said, Okay, Richard, we don't think you'll be needing to go to America.
[31:51.480 --> 31:53.460]  Well, clearly that was a lie, wasn't it?
[31:54.100 --> 31:54.920]  Well, heaven after that.
[31:55.580 --> 31:57.780]  They said to Richard, he must be on bail.
[31:58.380 --> 32:01.840]  And he had to go back to a police station in London six months later.
[32:01.840 --> 32:03.640]  We never heard a word from them in the meantime.
[32:03.960 --> 32:05.200]  They took away his computer.
[32:07.940 --> 32:12.020]  That still remains untouched somewhere down in London.
[32:12.340 --> 32:14.560]  And when's the first time they started talking about the extradition?
[32:14.560 --> 32:18.000]  Well, when we went to the bail, they came out, because I went with him.
[32:18.360 --> 32:22.140]  They said, oh, the criminal investigation in the UK has been dropped.
[32:22.940 --> 32:26.060]  So we kind of breathed a bit of a relief there.
[32:26.460 --> 32:31.380]  But then in the next sentence, they said, but we've got an extradition warrant for you instead for America.
[32:31.380 --> 32:32.320]  Oh, thanks.
[32:32.940 --> 32:33.680]  One way pass.
[32:34.520 --> 32:40.560]  And then he was quickly put in handcuffs and hurried off to the nearest court, the extradition court.
[32:40.820 --> 32:42.180]  He was actually put in handcuffs?
[32:42.380 --> 32:42.520]  Yeah.
[32:43.360 --> 32:47.000]  Well, it must be a health and safety thing, because he was going in the police car.
[32:47.140 --> 32:48.620]  Because I said, what are you doing with handcuffs?
[32:48.720 --> 32:50.140]  And he said, oh, we've got to, it's the rules.
[32:50.340 --> 32:53.240]  So, but I never could get a chance to speak to him.
[32:53.340 --> 32:55.060]  I had to find my own way there.
[32:55.060 --> 32:58.980]  He was locked up in the court, so I couldn't communicate with him.
[32:59.820 --> 33:03.000]  Somebody got a barrister to come a few hours later.
[33:03.200 --> 33:08.600]  And I was just watching hundreds of people being rubber stamped for extradition.
[33:08.620 --> 33:11.920]  And I thought, God, this is going to be Richard next when it's his turn.
[33:12.100 --> 33:14.380]  And you had absolutely no idea this was going to happen.
[33:14.500 --> 33:15.640]  It was a complete surprise.
[33:16.100 --> 33:16.220]  No.
[33:17.100 --> 33:17.400]  Wow.
[33:17.800 --> 33:23.680]  Because we had not had any correspondence to, any correspondence for Richard comes to this house.
[33:23.680 --> 33:28.260]  Because he changes addresses when he's at uni, so it's safer for mail to come here.
[33:28.260 --> 33:36.700]  So, no correspondence from any rights holders in America about copyright or anything.
[33:37.020 --> 33:37.160]  No.
[33:37.840 --> 33:44.080]  Because he did have a takedown request to remove a link from, is it Aardman Productions?
[33:44.380 --> 33:46.760]  The one who did, them who did Wallace and Gromit.
[33:47.480 --> 33:47.760]  Okay.
[33:47.760 --> 33:51.820]  That film company, a British company, asked him to remove a link and he removed the link.
[33:52.480 --> 33:52.500]  Sure.
[33:52.500 --> 33:58.080]  But he said that any such requests that he got from America, they weren't correct.
[33:58.080 --> 34:02.700]  They didn't have the proper information for a link to be removed, so he just ignored them.
[34:04.080 --> 34:04.260]  Interesting.
[34:04.260 --> 34:12.460]  But no mail came, because I would open all the mail and I would have, if anybody had written to Richard and said, hey we don't like what your website's doing, I'd have been on it, you know.
[34:13.080 --> 34:14.120]  But nobody did.
[34:14.400 --> 34:15.420]  Yeah, no correspondence.
[34:15.740 --> 34:15.900]  No.
[34:16.320 --> 34:21.580]  We were talking earlier about Richard and you said that he really, he's incapable of not telling the truth.
[34:21.880 --> 34:22.780]  No, no, no.
[34:22.780 --> 34:27.000]  Just step up and say, yeah, this is what I was doing, this is what this was.
[34:27.140 --> 34:27.620]  Yeah, yeah.
[34:27.780 --> 34:31.700]  And I think that's a very admirable thing, to be able to do that.
[34:31.900 --> 34:34.840]  Even more so, because there's very little fault here in his eyes.
[34:34.980 --> 34:35.420]  I mean, what?
[34:36.220 --> 34:44.620]  Well, when you're getting told in your own country, that what you did isn't actually a crime in your own country, it just becomes even more ridiculous, doesn't it?
[34:45.560 --> 34:57.120]  To expect that, for America to expect that citizens in other countries should abide by their laws, does American citizens follow British law?
[34:57.360 --> 34:58.880]  We don't even know what British law is.
[34:59.200 --> 34:59.340]  Exactly.
[34:59.400 --> 35:00.220]  And you wouldn't, would you?
[35:00.340 --> 35:00.960]  I don't know.
[35:01.100 --> 35:06.860]  And actually, there are so many states in America, and some of those states, the laws will be different, won't they?
[35:07.260 --> 35:07.660]  Absolutely.
[35:07.900 --> 35:10.780]  We're extremely confused over there as well, as far as following the law.
[35:10.880 --> 35:12.040]  We don't know when we're breaking the law.
[35:12.600 --> 35:15.040]  You have to assume you're always breaking the law somehow.
[35:15.040 --> 35:28.300]  But it's a dangerous thing because, you know, for students or young people, not just those people, the internet is widely used in this present day, isn't it?
[35:28.660 --> 35:38.640]  So, are we all at risk of being extradited to America because we've broken, done something that may offend them in one of their states of America that we don't follow the laws of?
[35:39.940 --> 35:43.940]  It seems we just want to bring a whole lot of new immigrants over to our country.
[35:43.940 --> 35:45.640]  You want to fill them private prisons, don't you?
[35:46.100 --> 35:46.680]  Yeah, right.
[35:46.860 --> 36:00.600]  And it seems like it was just sort of a fishing expedition where they cast a really, really wide net and try to implicate, you know, all kinds of different sites in this sort of lumped in...
[36:00.600 --> 36:06.780]  But you see, Richard, being Richard, his name and address was there attached to his domain name.
[36:06.780 --> 36:08.300]  But he didn't try to hide his name at all.
[36:08.400 --> 36:16.960]  No, no, because he wouldn't, you know, he was not... he wasn't intending to commit any crime, so he wouldn't do that, you know.
[36:17.500 --> 36:17.900]  Again...
[36:17.900 --> 36:25.180]  He would find it impossible to do... to tell a lie like that, you know, or to think, oh, I'll have a postal box instead or I'll...
[36:25.180 --> 36:26.740]  It's a bit of a testament to his character.
[36:26.980 --> 36:27.740]  Yeah, yeah.
[36:28.040 --> 36:33.120]  So the reaction since all of this happened seems to have been pretty strong from various quarters.
[36:33.120 --> 36:50.400]  Yeah, a lot of the people from the government, some MPs, quite high up people have spoken out saying this is a misuse of the extradition law and this is totally wrong, this is not what the extradition treaty was meant to be for.
[36:51.120 --> 37:01.800]  But, you know, we keep shipping them over to you because the government is too slack to get their fingers pulled out and make the necessary protections in the law.
[37:02.240 --> 37:05.320]  Same as American citizens have in the law already.
[37:05.860 --> 37:08.320]  Do you know what it would take to change this?
[37:08.320 --> 37:10.560]  It wouldn't take much at all.
[37:11.000 --> 37:20.620]  All it would take and the clause is written ready on the statute books because people tried to introduce it before and it's called the forum amendment.
[37:21.340 --> 37:34.880]  And just simply, that states that if somebody has committed a crime and either a significant amount of that activity was committed in this country, then they should be tried in this country.
[37:35.080 --> 37:35.880]  That's all.
[37:36.060 --> 37:39.460]  That is what already happens in America.
[37:39.900 --> 37:42.440]  So it's sort of honouring what's been said already.
[37:43.020 --> 37:48.220]  Well, no, that is an additional clause that would need to be actioned into the law.
[37:48.500 --> 37:49.580]  But it's written already.
[37:49.880 --> 37:51.480]  It's already been debated.
[37:52.560 --> 37:55.340]  Because people have been fighting this law since it came in.
[37:55.600 --> 37:55.920]  Got it.
[37:56.160 --> 38:02.760]  So, the intellectual arguments about the need for the law to be changed in this way have already been won.
[38:04.040 --> 38:06.840]  We are waiting for the government, for the whole office.
[38:06.840 --> 38:07.280]  So it's about the will.
[38:07.540 --> 38:08.620]  It's the will, yes.
[38:08.960 --> 38:08.960]  Yeah.
[38:09.420 --> 38:17.000]  Well, it's interesting here is that we're saying that if Richard committed a crime in this country, that, okay, try him in this country, don't exorcise him.
[38:17.080 --> 38:21.760]  But it's not even at that level because according to the law here he didn't even commit a crime.
[38:21.960 --> 38:24.820]  So it's impossible to try him in this country because there was no crime.
[38:25.260 --> 38:32.320]  Yeah, and America is saying he committed a crime either against America or in America.
[38:32.320 --> 38:38.820]  Well, he didn't, you know, because, actually, the biggest users of his site were in Russia and China.
[38:38.820 --> 38:43.780]  So if he committed a crime, he was more there than in America, wasn't he?
[38:44.000 --> 38:46.700]  Because there were more internet users in those countries.
[38:47.040 --> 38:58.900]  Well, imagine if China or Russia or any country just said, you know, we want your citizens to come over here because they insulted maybe our religion or they did some kind of copyright thing that we don't agree with.
[38:58.900 --> 39:04.600]  Just imagine the nightmare of that, having to basically face off against every nation on earth and their laws.
[39:05.960 --> 39:21.340]  Now, I'm very curious because, Julia, you have been extremely active in defending your son, which of course any mother would do, but you've really hit the ground running as far as just being tied into every aspect of it online, doing interviews, tweeting left and right about this.
[39:21.500 --> 39:21.940]  Ranting.
[39:22.500 --> 39:24.580]  I mean, have you done this before?
[39:24.800 --> 39:25.900]  You seem awfully good at it.
[39:26.020 --> 39:30.660]  How did you how did you just get it so quickly together?
[39:31.100 --> 39:36.980]  Well, you know, as soon as that word extradition was mentioned, no other information was given to us.
[39:37.700 --> 39:40.900]  You know, you don't get a leaflet saying all about extradition.
[39:41.000 --> 39:41.640]  You get nothing.
[39:42.020 --> 39:49.920]  So when we got away from the court that day, and Richard had to stay in prison actually that night because they wanted his passport.
[39:50.360 --> 39:53.140]  We didn't go to London expecting to need the passport.
[39:53.560 --> 39:53.660]  Right.
[39:54.100 --> 39:55.500]  And they wanted money.
[39:55.880 --> 39:57.020]  And because the court...
[39:57.020 --> 39:59.200]  So because you couldn't exchange it, he had to stay overnight.
[39:59.600 --> 39:59.780]  He had to stay.
[40:00.120 --> 40:02.120]  And then I had to...
[40:02.120 --> 40:02.900]  We had to get money.
[40:03.120 --> 40:05.340]  And when we came out of the court, they were closing.
[40:05.540 --> 40:08.840]  I could have got the money that night, but they wanted to close.
[40:09.020 --> 40:10.780]  So he got taken to prison.
[40:10.880 --> 40:12.520]  And I had to sort it out the next day.
[40:12.520 --> 40:21.900]  Luckily, my sister lives in London and I could stay overnight and it wasn't easy to sort everything out because they are so inefficient down there in the courts at that time.
[40:23.080 --> 40:24.300]  But Richard had to stay in prison.
[40:24.400 --> 40:26.000]  Yeah, he stayed in prison for a night.
[40:26.520 --> 40:31.040]  And so when we got home, then I had to get on here.
[40:31.200 --> 40:33.560]  And I've been stuck on this laptop since.
[40:34.560 --> 40:43.000]  Researching, I had to find out about the extradition law, I had to start looking about copyright law in America, in this country, looking up legal cases.
[40:43.300 --> 40:45.000]  And I had to find people.
[40:45.280 --> 40:50.440]  Because I was Googling about extradition, you know, it brought me up a few other victims.
[40:50.480 --> 40:52.200]  So I got in touch with them.
[40:52.500 --> 40:57.550]  It brought me up our media supporter who...
[40:57.900 --> 41:07.960]  This is a lady who has a crisis media type company who helps people who've got big crisis things happening in their lives.
[41:07.960 --> 41:11.240]  She helps them... Well, she's a business.
[41:11.260 --> 41:16.280]  So she helps handle the media for them and tell them how to best handle the media themselves.
[41:16.700 --> 41:22.700]  So I found that company and found that she had been helping other victims of this extradition.
[41:23.100 --> 41:29.120]  But I didn't know, like, I'm not going to be able to pay for this sort of advice.
[41:29.300 --> 41:31.660]  But I was like, we were going to the court.
[41:31.820 --> 41:35.340]  When we had to go back to the court, I was like, Oh my God, there might be some press people there.
[41:35.420 --> 41:36.080]  What will I do?
[41:36.380 --> 41:38.240]  How is that going to be?
[41:38.600 --> 41:46.300]  What would we... So I just phoned her or emailed her from my sisters and she got straight on to me and told me, Don't worry.
[41:46.320 --> 41:47.080]  This is what to do.
[41:47.160 --> 41:47.820]  Just smile at them.
[41:47.920 --> 41:48.380]  Be polite.
[41:48.540 --> 41:48.860]  Blah, blah, blah.
[41:49.080 --> 41:50.600]  But she's helping us for free.
[41:50.680 --> 41:53.460]  And she has helped all these extradition victims for free.
[41:53.900 --> 41:55.220]  She's got a business to run.
[41:55.280 --> 41:56.140]  That is her business.
[41:56.300 --> 42:01.760]  But she has been fighting against this extradition law for years since it came in.
[42:01.920 --> 42:06.320]  Since she started helping the NatWest 3, the bankers that were extradited.
[42:06.880 --> 42:11.820]  And she has been doing that herself for free, not charging any of us.
[42:11.820 --> 42:15.000]  So she has been a really good source of support.
[42:15.220 --> 42:19.220]  And then I found Gary McKinnon's mother through on the internet.
[42:19.360 --> 42:20.820]  She told me about Twitter.
[42:21.320 --> 42:26.220]  So I thought, well, I don't go do like Facebook and Twitter, but I quickly had to learn it.
[42:26.520 --> 42:28.500]  So that's why I'm on it all the time.
[42:28.640 --> 42:31.460]  So it's been a very sharp learning curve.
[42:31.460 --> 42:34.280]  And now I'm on this all the time and I'm not at work.
[42:34.400 --> 42:36.420]  Really, I haven't got time to go to work, but...
[42:36.420 --> 42:37.620]  And what is your Twitter ID?
[42:38.180 --> 42:39.460]  Ah, JRO Dwyer.
[42:39.460 --> 42:39.500]  Yeah.
[42:40.060 --> 42:42.360]  For anybody who wants to follow and keep updated.
[42:42.740 --> 42:42.820]  Yeah, yeah.
[42:42.820 --> 42:47.520]  Such amazing strength that it's emanating from you with this.
[42:47.520 --> 42:52.480]  But you have to, because to think that you're fighting against not only your own government, but America.
[42:52.740 --> 42:54.640]  And I know what happens in America.
[42:54.680 --> 42:59.340]  You don't get taken there to a place which is trial ready.
[42:59.340 --> 43:02.320]  You get banged up in one of those federal prisons.
[43:02.720 --> 43:07.440]  Christopher Tappin was extradited there in February and he was put into solitary confinement.
[43:07.440 --> 43:14.740]  And America fed out this bull**** sorry story that he'd requested to go into solitary confinement.
[43:14.960 --> 43:18.800]  But when he came out on bail, they eventually let him have bail.
[43:19.040 --> 43:22.020]  He told us all he didn't request solitary confinement.
[43:22.240 --> 43:26.380]  So they're peddling lies, you know, about what happens at the other end.
[43:26.380 --> 43:30.660]  Why would a businessman need to be put into solitary confinement?
[43:30.980 --> 43:36.580]  You know, a white collar criminal, if any criminal, doesn't need to be put in solitary confinement.
[43:37.200 --> 43:38.420]  Other than to break them.
[43:38.420 --> 43:39.260]  Well, exactly.
[43:39.620 --> 43:40.620]  And that's part of the...
[43:40.620 --> 43:42.640]  So, you know, that could likely happen to Richard.
[43:42.840 --> 43:51.480]  They leave you to stew in their manky jails until you get weakened and ground down so that you'll plead, yes, I did it, to anything.
[43:51.700 --> 43:54.880]  But actually, Richard's not saying he didn't do anything anyway.
[43:55.020 --> 43:56.780]  He's already told them about his website.
[43:56.780 --> 43:57.960]  You know.
[43:58.900 --> 43:59.500]  Wow.
[43:59.980 --> 44:01.640]  But if they, you know, that's what...
[44:01.640 --> 44:03.500]  I know what the procedure is.
[44:03.620 --> 44:13.900]  And I know what misinformation gets peddled out of the American Embassy in the UK and other people who like to say, we're wonderful in America.
[44:13.900 --> 44:15.940]  We've got a fantastic judicial system.
[44:15.940 --> 44:20.560]  But that's not what you find if you do a little bit of research.
[44:20.960 --> 44:24.540]  You can't look through rose-colored glasses with something so serious.
[44:24.540 --> 44:28.260]  I went to a public meeting this week on extradition.
[44:28.360 --> 44:32.940]  We had two American lawyers on Skype speaking about what happens.
[44:33.380 --> 44:38.900]  One of them works at the Centre for Constitutional Rights, I think it's called, a lawyer.
[44:39.060 --> 44:42.620]  And he says, we have a corrupt judicial system in America.
[44:43.580 --> 44:46.300]  And that is coming from an American lawyer.
[44:47.060 --> 44:47.600]  You...
[44:47.600 --> 44:49.020]  Obviously, there isn't a...
[44:49.020 --> 44:52.560]  You know, he doesn't feel too good about the system in his own country.
[44:52.560 --> 44:58.680]  What has the reaction been like from America that you can see so far from people, from lawyers, politicians?
[44:59.000 --> 45:06.680]  Well, I haven't had any reaction from politicians in America because I don't involve myself...
[45:07.100 --> 45:09.860]  You know, we don't have access to American politicians.
[45:09.860 --> 45:11.780]  I did write to a couple of American...
[45:11.780 --> 45:31.240]  I wrote to Ron Wyden, Senator Ron Wyden, and Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren because I know that those two people have been raising objections to the behaviours of ICE in seizing domain names and trying to criminalise linking on a website.
[45:31.240 --> 45:34.440]  So, I did write to them, but I haven't heard anything from them.
[45:34.540 --> 45:37.360]  But, on Twitter, I've had a lot of support from America.
[45:37.640 --> 45:48.200]  I've had people signing Richard's petition, the online petition, saying, this makes me ashamed of my country, basically, and that this is all wrong.
[45:48.440 --> 45:50.660]  So, I've had a lot of support from the public in America.
[45:50.840 --> 45:53.880]  We can change things, and I think the way to do that is to get the word out.
[45:53.880 --> 45:59.300]  We can certainly check with those Senators to make sure they're getting their mail, because they should respond to you.
[45:59.320 --> 46:10.000]  Well, I sent a written... I sent proper letters in the post, and I did follow Ron Wyden on Twitter, and they did follow me back.
[46:10.000 --> 46:13.000]  So, I thought, is that a little message to say they've got the letter?
[46:13.000 --> 46:13.880]  I don't know, but...
[46:13.880 --> 46:17.100]  I think it might be an automated script that does that, but we can check that, too.
[46:17.240 --> 46:18.760]  I'm sure they don't follow back everybody, do they?
[46:18.960 --> 46:19.560]  I don't know.
[46:19.820 --> 46:20.240]  I'm not sure.
[46:20.340 --> 46:22.740]  It depends on how many followers they have, how many people they're following.
[46:22.740 --> 46:31.600]  But the actual... when you talk about this, do you get responses from people who live in America, as well, that are outraged by this?
[46:31.840 --> 46:34.600]  Yeah, I get lots of people on Twitter following me.
[46:35.660 --> 46:42.000]  As I said, comments... people often leave comments on the petition, and I can see where they're from.
[46:42.180 --> 46:47.400]  In fact, you know, I think the majority of people who've signed the petition are in America, actually.
[46:47.400 --> 46:57.500]  Now, we were talking about this earlier, who in this country would support sending somebody like Richard to America to face charges for something that isn't even a crime here?
[46:57.520 --> 47:00.840]  We couldn't think of anybody that would support that, a UK citizen.
[47:01.180 --> 47:07.380]  No, I certainly haven't had any feedback from anybody supporting that Richard should go to America at all.
[47:07.380 --> 47:10.760]  So, I think that's a galvanizing type of a thing.
[47:10.920 --> 47:16.620]  You have all this potential popular support, if it can be explained to them in terms that they understand.
[47:16.820 --> 47:23.160]  Like, for instance, you know, would someone's grandmother understand why this is a huge threat and why it needs to be stopped?
[47:23.160 --> 47:30.480]  Well, as I said, we did say, you know, this has got massive implications in all walks of life, really, for people that use the internet.
[47:30.820 --> 47:35.840]  People either that use the internet socially, for entertainment, or for business.
[47:35.840 --> 47:53.360]  You know, and already, people, some people, since Christopher Tappan was extradited, and while Richard's case has been going, a few people have publicly said they are dropping their .com domain names and moving away from US domain names.
[47:53.500 --> 48:05.180]  Because somebody from ICE, Eric Barnett, has tried to say that anybody who's got an American domain name, you know, you're under our jurisdiction, so we'll be coming for you.
[48:05.700 --> 48:14.980]  But, so, quite a lot of British businesses have said they're dropping their .coms and moving to non-US domain names.
[48:15.160 --> 48:17.480]  That's an encouraging sign.
[48:17.640 --> 48:23.540]  I mean, there's a bit of solidarity there, that people can kind of show their support in that way.
[48:23.760 --> 48:30.800]  Just in that sense, but of course, as we all know, having a .com site does not mean that the data goes through the United States.
[48:30.800 --> 48:38.920]  Well, this is because ICE are not completely technically educated in what they're talking about.
[48:39.080 --> 48:52.760]  I don't know all about that, but I've read blogs that people have said, that is a load of rubbish anyway, because just because you've got a .com domain name technically does not mean anything, really, about what he's trying to say.
[48:52.760 --> 49:15.160]  So, but that lack of the proper technical understanding is a common thread through what he says and also through the affidavit and the information coming about Richard's case from America, because it's clear that the, you know, people, the agents investigating are not fully technically literate anyway.
[49:15.160 --> 49:21.500]  They obviously are experienced in what they're trying to do, but they're not fully technically educated about it.
[49:21.780 --> 49:25.180]  So, it's actually a bit of a misleading show of support and people...
[49:25.180 --> 49:30.620]  It speaks to the criticality of having an understanding of what's really going on here.
[49:30.740 --> 49:38.680]  Yeah, and actually what Eric Barnett stated about the domain names is not referred to at all in any of the documents that we have from America.
[49:38.680 --> 49:41.700]  So, that was just a statement he made to the press.
[49:43.040 --> 49:43.600]  Interesting.
[49:43.940 --> 49:50.380]  Well, it shows how nobody really knows what's going on, how anything works at that level, which is pretty sad.
[49:50.660 --> 49:59.720]  Well, a lot of support I've had from the tech community, from copyright lawyers on Twitter, from other experts in that field.
[49:59.860 --> 50:06.240]  Even I've had support from media, from like film companies following me on Twitter.
[50:06.240 --> 50:07.740]  You wouldn't expect them.
[50:07.760 --> 50:11.400]  You'd think they would sign up for, yeah, shipping off to America.
[50:11.600 --> 50:13.180]  Not the major film companies, I'll bet.
[50:13.440 --> 50:13.980]  Well, no.
[50:14.160 --> 50:15.460]  Warner Brothers or...
[50:15.460 --> 50:21.120]  Although, you know, Warner Brothers did ask Richard, approach Richard, and ask if they could put their videos on his site.
[50:21.540 --> 50:22.260]  You're kidding.
[50:22.480 --> 50:22.640]  No.
[50:23.600 --> 50:25.520]  But they've done that to other sites, haven't they?
[50:25.540 --> 50:27.340]  Because I've read about it in the online journals.
[50:27.340 --> 50:31.000]  They have done that to several of these similar websites.
[50:31.000 --> 50:35.780]  As sort of a, sort of a, a grassroots sort of promotion.
[50:36.080 --> 50:40.080]  But they want to, they want you then to make that website only available to America.
[50:40.660 --> 50:42.420]  So Richard didn't want to do that, you see.
[50:42.660 --> 50:45.560]  Because he wanted everybody to look at his website free, you know, share.
[50:45.940 --> 50:47.120]  The scope of it would limit it.
[50:47.120 --> 50:47.860]  So, but they did.
[50:48.000 --> 50:54.380]  And they have done, it has been reported in the press, in the tech journals, that they have done that to other websites.
[50:54.700 --> 50:55.080]  Interesting.
[50:56.080 --> 51:01.000]  Well, we're pretty much closing out here, but I just want to know how Richard is holding out.
[51:01.280 --> 51:02.680]  Is he in good spirits?
[51:02.980 --> 51:04.940]  Well, he doesn't like to talk about it, you know.
[51:05.240 --> 51:13.440]  And I don't think anybody talks to him about it, other than me, or if we've got to see the lawyers, or if we've got a planned interview.
[51:13.640 --> 51:20.920]  But if I, I can only talk to him about it in little bite-sized bits, because he'll say, I don't want to talk about it now.
[51:22.900 --> 51:29.080]  He's trying to blank it off, you know, because it spoils what he's doing, and I'm just getting on and doing all this.
[51:29.080 --> 51:33.100]  He doesn't know half of what I've been doing, really, for him.
[51:33.340 --> 51:34.920]  Because I'm just getting on with it, you know.
[51:34.980 --> 51:39.100]  And I don't want to bother him with it, because he doesn't, you know, I don't really know how he feels.
[51:39.100 --> 51:56.940]  How would you feel if somebody was going to rip you out of your country and take you off to a place that has terrible prison conditions and is going to bang you up for, even before, you know, innocent until proven guilty, they put you in prison straight away before a trial in America if you get extradited.
[51:57.160 --> 51:58.180]  Just for speech?
[51:58.180 --> 52:00.420]  Just for him writing something on a public website?
[52:00.860 --> 52:03.560]  Well, no matter what it was for...
[52:03.560 --> 52:11.640]  Actually, it wasn't even him, it was a user, the users were submitting the links anyway, so it wasn't really him publishing it, he was just facilitating other people's speech.
[52:11.640 --> 52:16.280]  But, normally, you don't get put to prison before you found guilty of the crime.
[52:16.620 --> 52:19.820]  But if you are extradited to America, you get prison first.
[52:20.020 --> 52:22.480]  Well, we can't have foreigners walking around the streets, can we?
[52:22.640 --> 52:22.880]  Oh, no.
[52:23.200 --> 52:27.680]  We have to put them in a safe prison and in solitary confinement because they request that.
[52:28.160 --> 52:31.500]  It's amazing what we're learning about our own system through cases like this.
[52:31.640 --> 52:46.080]  But I hope Richard is aware that there is so much support and that you're at the forefront of it, but many people throughout, certainly the UK and the US, are fighting for this and to keep future cases like it from occurring.
[52:46.400 --> 52:48.000]  A lot of potential victims out there.
[52:48.400 --> 52:49.940]  Can you tell us what's next?
[52:50.320 --> 52:51.980]  What are we looking at down the road?
[52:52.100 --> 52:59.820]  Well, we're waiting for our appeal date, and that, as I told you earlier, that's been delayed now, so it'll be probably in October or November.
[53:00.060 --> 53:03.140]  So that gives us time to prepare for the appeal.
[53:03.460 --> 53:15.360]  And it also gives the government time, the British government time, to make the changes that they said they were going to make to the extradition law in the... now they've got a few months.
[53:15.480 --> 53:19.100]  But they'll all clear off for the summer holiday soon, and then they won't be doing any work.
[53:19.240 --> 53:23.320]  But at least October and November does give a bit more time for them to...
[53:23.900 --> 53:29.680]  and we can be, you know, putting together our appeal, and exploring any other avenues.
[53:30.120 --> 53:32.440]  This must have had a tremendous toll on your life as well.
[53:32.860 --> 53:33.300]  Completely.
[53:33.580 --> 53:35.560]  I mean, you know, it's taken over.
[53:36.400 --> 53:38.900]  Because I'm strapped to a laptop all the time.
[53:39.080 --> 53:42.700]  If I go to work, I'm strapped to a laptop all the time, and then come home, I'm stuck to it.
[53:42.760 --> 53:47.620]  I had about six months of work in the beginning, because it was just on my mind too much.
[53:47.620 --> 53:49.520]  I couldn't concentrate on anything else.
[53:50.660 --> 53:55.100]  And so all my time, when not at work, is spent...
[53:55.100 --> 53:58.140]  I'm not researching so much now, because we've done...
[53:58.140 --> 54:05.620]  we've done all the research about the case and about the law, and I know the extradition law, but, you know, we've got the Twitter campaign going.
[54:05.800 --> 54:08.700]  I help... we all... there's a few of us.
[54:08.820 --> 54:10.680]  We're all in it together, if you like.
[54:10.680 --> 54:13.260]  So we help each other's Twitter campaigns.
[54:15.520 --> 54:20.840]  You know, last week I was down in London, speaking to one of the good MPs in Parliament.
[54:21.800 --> 54:23.940]  So there's a fair bit to do.
[54:24.240 --> 54:26.360]  You're speaking to me today at half four.
[54:26.480 --> 54:28.360]  Some other radio channels are going to ring me up.
[54:29.300 --> 54:34.120]  At one time, you know, or at least when we're at court, that becomes full on for a few days.
[54:34.360 --> 54:37.580]  Because if there's a court appearance, the media are interested.
[54:37.580 --> 54:40.220]  And the media have been very supportive.
[54:40.220 --> 54:42.880]  We have not had any negative press at all.
[54:43.080 --> 54:44.540]  Well, it's such an unbelievable case.
[54:44.540 --> 54:52.940]  I would love to hear the justification of anybody who was opposed to Richard succeeding in this fight.
[54:54.160 --> 54:58.500]  Julia, you're a tremendous inspiration to us, and I'm sure to people all over the world.
[54:59.000 --> 55:01.840]  And anybody would be lucky to have you on their side.
[55:02.100 --> 55:03.700]  You shouldn't cross others, you know.
[55:05.400 --> 55:06.480]  Absolutely not.
[55:06.600 --> 55:07.240]  Absolutely not.
[55:08.040 --> 55:09.420]  We're going to keep following this.
[55:09.840 --> 55:10.000]  Good, good.
[55:10.000 --> 55:11.020]  I appreciate that.
[55:11.380 --> 55:14.400]  And we'll be talking about this in the future.
[55:14.400 --> 55:18.260]  And we know you'll prevail and hopefully change things for the better.
[55:18.380 --> 55:19.500]  I'll make a lot of noise if I don't.
[55:20.860 --> 55:22.260]  Thanks for having us today.
[55:22.380 --> 55:24.500]  Thank you for giving me some time.
[55:25.400 --> 55:26.140]  All right.
[55:26.300 --> 55:31.860]  And that was an interview that Kyle and I did with Julia O'Dwyer at her home in the United Kingdom.
[55:32.640 --> 55:33.160]  Wow.
[55:33.380 --> 55:34.220]  Don't cross mothers.
[55:34.380 --> 55:48.080]  I think that's really what we learned from this as she fights to keep her son from being extradited to the United States for the crime of running a website that showed people where they could download television programs and things like that.
[55:48.080 --> 55:52.960]  And I understand Julia is listening now from her Twitter ID, J-R-O-D-W-Y-E-R.
[55:53.080 --> 55:55.900]  That's J-R-O-D-W-Y-E-R.
[55:56.100 --> 55:59.280]  So greetings to Julia out there and to everybody else.
[55:59.280 --> 56:02.860]  And let me just ask the question, is that not worth that kind of interview?
[56:02.960 --> 56:04.880]  Is that not worth 33 cents a day?
[56:05.240 --> 56:05.500]  Yeah.
[56:05.720 --> 56:19.720]  If you call 212-209-2950 and pledge that amount, you can help keep a full-fledged fundraiser from taking over the show for at least one week next month.
[56:19.720 --> 56:21.980]  We have five Wednesdays in October.
[56:22.180 --> 56:25.480]  That means we could be doing five fundraising shows.
[56:25.480 --> 56:40.820]  Or if enough people call 212-209-2950 and pledge $10 a month, $10 a month, 33 cents a day, we can actually raise enough to keep one of those programs normal and not have to do more fundraising.
[56:40.820 --> 56:43.480]  So it's your choice, really.
[56:44.160 --> 56:48.580]  I've already opted in on this myself and hopefully other people will as well.
[56:48.680 --> 56:50.100]  212-209-2950.
[56:50.300 --> 56:51.100]  We're almost out of time.
[56:51.220 --> 56:53.020]  So guys, any thoughts on what you just heard?
[56:53.300 --> 56:56.620]  Do we know, has there been any updates since the time of the interview?
[56:56.700 --> 57:00.480]  Well, I exchanged email with Julia last night and she said nothing new.
[57:00.640 --> 57:02.060]  They're still waiting on appeals.
[57:03.040 --> 57:09.040]  So I think October was mentioned as one of the months that they were going to hear something.
[57:09.040 --> 57:12.560]  So, of course, if we find out anything, we'll pass it along to listeners.
[57:12.660 --> 57:17.020]  But this is one case that we're definitely riveted to and we'll be following that in the months ahead.
[57:17.580 --> 57:17.980]  Emmanuel?
[57:18.180 --> 57:18.340]  Yes.
[57:19.340 --> 57:23.440]  I believe this case was filed out of New York.
[57:23.540 --> 57:23.980]  Isn't that right?
[57:24.780 --> 57:26.620]  I don't have that information, but...
[57:26.620 --> 57:27.600]  Yeah, I believe I'm reading about it.
[57:27.660 --> 57:35.420]  I had corresponded with Julia in the past to get her on the show months ago.
[57:35.420 --> 57:41.400]  And, yeah, I believe this was filed out of New York District Court, federal court.
[57:41.720 --> 57:55.380]  So in the unfortunate event that Richard is extradited to the U.S., he'll be right there in WBAI listener area, which would be a tragic thing that he would be extradited.
[57:55.380 --> 57:59.320]  But my point is this strikes home.
[57:59.560 --> 58:04.960]  He's going to come to right where we are if this injustice happens and if he is extradited to the U.S.
[58:05.460 --> 58:05.980]  All right.
[58:06.080 --> 58:13.120]  We're going to have to leave it there, but that is one case, one case of many that we'll be following here on Off the Hook.
[58:13.320 --> 58:17.080]  And another reason that I think people should support the program, support the station.
[58:17.500 --> 58:21.920]  Again, 212-209-2900 if you pledge $10 a month.
[58:22.600 --> 58:24.880]  I think we just need a total of 10 people.
[58:24.980 --> 58:25.800]  I'm not sure how many we have.
[58:25.900 --> 58:28.720]  We have not been able to get a number yet.
[58:28.720 --> 58:29.440]  We'll find out.
[58:29.860 --> 58:36.020]  But if we get 10 for tonight, that pretty much fills our goal for this one-day fundraiser.
[58:36.620 --> 58:41.780]  And if we get another 20 on top of that, we can wipe out a day in October and just have a normal show.
[58:41.780 --> 58:42.960]  So think about that.
[58:43.300 --> 58:50.760]  If you're listening to this program later on, go to www.wbai.org and you can pledge online.
[58:50.940 --> 58:57.940]  Just click on the WBAI Buddy section and you'll be able to do however much a month you want to do.
[58:58.240 --> 59:04.900]  Send us your name and we'll verify that against the station records and we'll count that towards next month as well.
[59:05.000 --> 59:06.620]  OTH at 2600.com.
[59:06.740 --> 59:08.980]  Thanks to everybody who has called in so far.
[59:08.980 --> 59:14.460]  Those of you who have not called in, the number is 212-209-2950.
[59:14.960 --> 59:15.840]  We'll see you next week.
[59:16.020 --> 59:16.400]  Good night.
[01:01:33.330 --> 01:01:34.950]  Oh, where's the music?
[01:01:35.270 --> 01:01:35.450]  Ah!
[01:01:35.450 --> 01:01:35.470]  Yes!
[01:01:35.790 --> 01:01:35.990]  There he is!