[00:00.000 --> 00:05.820]  I have felt frustrated and betrayed by the state of the mainstream media in this country.
[00:06.260 --> 00:10.800]  A media whose priorities seem out of step with their responsibilities.
[00:12.960 --> 00:17.960]  We need a media that strengthens democracy, not a media that strengthens the government.
[00:18.300 --> 00:24.020]  We need a media that enriches public discourse, not one that enriches corporations.
[00:24.020 --> 00:31.720]  Hi, I'm Jane Fonda, and this is WBAI, listener-supported, non-commercial radio in New York.
[00:33.700 --> 00:38.120]  And, yes, this is indeed WBAI New York, 99.5 FM.
[00:38.280 --> 00:41.660]  It's 7 o'clock, and time once again for Off The Hook.
[00:46.950 --> 00:51.350]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it up more.
[00:52.370 --> 00:56.850]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:57.730 --> 00:59.490]  We couldn't get much work.
[01:05.920 --> 01:07.680]  I hope that's understood.
[01:08.000 --> 01:08.700]  One little bit more.
[02:05.200 --> 02:06.380]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:06.480 --> 02:07.790]  The program is Off The Hook.
[02:08.040 --> 02:09.270]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:09.600 --> 02:10.760]  Joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:10.830 --> 02:11.270]  Firefly.
[02:11.540 --> 02:11.940]  Good evening.
[02:12.920 --> 02:21.160]  Okay, and, well, Mike is actually in the other room, visibly registering some premiums for us, which came in last minute, apparently.
[02:21.390 --> 02:23.660]  And, I don't know, do we have Bernie S.?
[02:23.660 --> 02:24.640]  Yes, Bernie S.
[02:24.770 --> 02:25.420]  is in Pennsylvania.
[02:25.420 --> 02:27.320]  Okay, I wasn't sure if you were connected yet.
[02:27.560 --> 02:27.770]  Mm-hmm.
[02:28.570 --> 02:29.330]  All right, good.
[02:31.000 --> 02:35.800]  Sorry, we're a little bit disorganized tonight because all these things happened at the last minute.
[02:35.890 --> 02:37.890]  We didn't know they were going to happen at the last minute, but they did.
[02:38.500 --> 02:44.440]  So let's, while we wait for things to get back on track, let's go over a couple of news items.
[02:44.440 --> 02:48.100]  And we have some really interesting things to talk about tonight, some interesting premiums.
[02:48.180 --> 02:48.900]  What's that noise?
[02:49.270 --> 02:49.880]  You hear that?
[02:50.960 --> 02:52.100]  I didn't hear anything.
[02:52.300 --> 02:53.060]  I heard...
[02:53.060 --> 02:53.760]  Oh, it's Mike's phone.
[02:53.800 --> 02:54.360]  He left his phone.
[02:54.360 --> 02:55.480]  I think it's in vibrate mode.
[02:55.880 --> 02:56.710]  That's what that is.
[02:56.960 --> 02:59.020]  We can tweet at him or something.
[02:59.180 --> 03:01.520]  Do we need a code to answer his phone or...?
[03:02.540 --> 03:03.710]  No, just permission.
[03:03.940 --> 03:04.580]  It's just flashing.
[03:04.700 --> 03:05.480]  Your phone's ringing, Mike.
[03:06.240 --> 03:07.040]  Oh, sorry.
[03:07.200 --> 03:07.440]  All right.
[03:07.830 --> 03:09.760]  Did you run here just to answer the phone or did you...?
[03:09.760 --> 03:10.300]  I should have.
[03:10.460 --> 03:10.800]  All right.
[03:11.580 --> 03:12.500]  Is everything okay?
[03:13.160 --> 03:14.260]  Things are going to be okay.
[03:14.620 --> 03:16.400]  No, I want things to be okay now.
[03:17.400 --> 03:18.080]  What was...?
[03:18.080 --> 03:20.960]  The okayness process has begun, is all I can promise.
[03:20.960 --> 03:21.960]  And that can take a long time.
[03:22.090 --> 03:22.700]  Yeah, well...
[03:22.700 --> 03:22.880]  All right.
[03:22.940 --> 03:27.740]  Well, just to update you, it's me, Rob, and Bernie S is on the phone right now.
[03:27.830 --> 03:28.180]  Oh, good.
[03:28.380 --> 03:29.270]  And now you're back.
[03:29.380 --> 03:30.150]  So that's good.
[03:30.260 --> 03:36.200]  But I'm still going to read this news story before we tear into things tonight because we have all sorts of exciting things.
[03:37.140 --> 03:38.560]  Today, kind of a somber thing.
[03:38.560 --> 03:41.580]  Well, actually, kind of a somber thing a day or so ago.
[03:42.420 --> 03:43.920]  It's the end of CFAX.
[03:44.140 --> 03:45.820]  Do you guys know what CFAX is or was?
[03:46.640 --> 03:49.440]  I saw this story and I was reminded what it was.
[03:49.620 --> 03:51.480]  I don't know that I would have remembered if I hadn't seen the story.
[03:51.480 --> 03:52.640]  Well, Bernie, I know you know what it was.
[03:54.120 --> 03:54.740]  Maybe he doesn't.
[03:54.760 --> 03:55.580]  Do I know what?
[03:55.740 --> 03:57.020]  What CFAX was.
[03:57.020 --> 04:03.560]  Yes, it was a really great TV videos text messaging service that they had in the UK.
[04:03.590 --> 04:05.680]  They've had in other countries, too, something similar.
[04:05.980 --> 04:06.650]  Not in this country.
[04:06.820 --> 04:07.560]  They did not have it here.
[04:07.590 --> 04:08.300]  No, they tried in this country.
[04:08.480 --> 04:11.940]  They just, you know, with our economic system, they just couldn't get it off the ground.
[04:11.940 --> 04:13.240]  There was too many competing interests.
[04:13.240 --> 04:23.640]  Basically, every over-the-air TV channel, I'm not sure if it worked in other channels as well, but definitely over-the-air channels in England had teletext as well as the TV signal.
[04:23.760 --> 04:27.640]  So you click a little button on your remote and the picture would disappear.
[04:27.830 --> 04:29.480]  The sound would remain, but the picture would disappear.
[04:29.710 --> 04:39.880]  And then this Commodore 64 looking screen would come on and you'd be able to read news stories, get sports scores, horoscopes, lottery numbers, things like that.
[04:39.980 --> 04:40.520]  Very slow.
[04:40.770 --> 04:41.480]  It took a long time.
[04:41.480 --> 04:44.270]  You'd have to enter a three-digit page number.
[04:44.400 --> 04:50.240]  And it would literally scroll through until it got to that particular page number and then display the text.
[04:50.380 --> 04:54.140]  Every channel had its own little lineup of pages.
[04:54.900 --> 05:00.320]  And from the first time I went to England back in 1989 until fairly...
[05:00.320 --> 05:02.180]  Actually, the last time I was in England, I didn't see it.
[05:02.640 --> 05:09.820]  Me and Carl looked for it, but it wasn't actually displaying anymore, at least not on the sets that we had access to.
[05:09.820 --> 05:17.240]  But, you know, it was kind of cool because you could see news stories, you could find out other things, but it was rather slow.
[05:17.440 --> 05:26.620]  But anyway, BBC CFAX had its final bow on the 23rd of October.
[05:26.620 --> 05:27.220]  That was yesterday.
[05:27.620 --> 05:31.740]  After nearly four decades to make way for the UK's digital switchover.
[05:31.740 --> 05:36.340]  So this is yet another advantage of digital that you cannot get this anymore.
[05:37.540 --> 05:38.600]  Yeah, I was just...
[05:38.600 --> 05:43.860]  Before I came over here, I was looking at digital TV because I have access to an over-the-air digital television.
[05:43.860 --> 05:49.420]  It is so much worse than regular television was because you can't get a bad signal.
[05:49.560 --> 05:51.160]  You either get a signal or you get no signal.
[05:51.320 --> 05:52.940]  And most of the time, you get no signal.
[05:53.220 --> 06:00.100]  Right here in New York City, right near where all the transmitters are, if a building's in the way or something just isn't quite right, you get no signal.
[06:00.100 --> 06:03.540]  And it's just... it's not an improvement, not in any sense.
[06:04.300 --> 06:05.000]  I'm sorry.
[06:05.100 --> 06:06.520]  I give it a big fat D.
[06:07.080 --> 06:14.560]  So with the advent of digital television in the UK, you can no longer get this presumably digital service that I was displaying on.
[06:14.680 --> 06:20.020]  But what digital computer-based services are there that you can say have run for decades?
[06:22.180 --> 06:22.900]  Let's see.
[06:23.100 --> 06:23.580]  AOL?
[06:23.780 --> 06:23.960]  No.
[06:24.580 --> 06:25.540]  I don't know.
[06:26.240 --> 06:27.580]  What about the news wires?
[06:27.720 --> 06:28.140]  How do they work?
[06:28.140 --> 06:34.860]  Well, I'd like to... I like to sort of ask that question in the other direction and say, what's going to be around in four decades that everybody is attaching themselves to now?
[06:35.040 --> 06:35.660]  How about that?
[06:36.560 --> 06:36.820]  Yeah.
[06:37.040 --> 06:39.200]  So maybe you don't want to store all your pictures...
[06:39.200 --> 06:39.560]  Yeah, probably.
[06:39.820 --> 06:55.620]  You want to store all your pictures in one place or put all your email in some other place or, you know, have all your social contacts in the hands of some corporation someplace because probably something's going to go out of business or cut over to something else or become obsolete and you'll be stranded.
[06:55.620 --> 07:07.340]  Meanwhile, people with books and people with photographs and things like that, they'll be able to laugh loud and long into the next few centuries, at least, until the earth gets scorched.
[07:07.660 --> 07:09.060]  Anyway, continuing...
[07:09.060 --> 07:10.280]  Let's get more positive than this.
[07:10.680 --> 07:11.600]  BBC CFAX.
[07:11.680 --> 07:13.100]  Yes, the death of BBC CFAX.
[07:13.160 --> 07:15.100]  That's not positive either, but let's at least get through the story.
[07:15.920 --> 07:26.820]  The much-loved service was taken off the air after 38 years, bringing to an end the service, which was the first port of call for breaking news, sports, weather, and more in the pre-Internet age.
[07:26.820 --> 07:39.760]  The world's first teletech service ended at 1130 PM when Olympic champion Dame Mary Peters turned off the last analog TV signal in Northern Ireland.
[07:40.000 --> 07:43.400]  Wow, that's an honor to turn off the last analog TV signal.
[07:44.240 --> 07:45.600]  Not the last analog TV.
[07:45.980 --> 07:49.000]  I don't know if she went to someone's house, although they can probably do that in the UK.
[07:49.000 --> 07:55.080]  They can find out if you have a TV set on and go in and turn it off if she really takes an interest like that.
[07:55.440 --> 07:59.120]  But on CFAX's final day, the Plain English campaign...
[07:59.120 --> 08:00.340]  The Plain English campaign?
[08:00.500 --> 08:01.780]  That sounds kind of scary.
[08:02.520 --> 08:03.540]  I don't trust it.
[08:03.980 --> 08:04.240]  All right.
[08:04.300 --> 08:06.040]  The Plain English campaign announced...
[08:06.040 --> 08:07.380]  It's a British thing, though.
[08:07.460 --> 08:09.600]  You can just tell by the sound of it, the Plain English campaign.
[08:09.600 --> 08:13.700]  They announced they were handling a Lifetime Achievement Award...
[08:14.260 --> 08:19.400]  No, handing a Lifetime Achievement Award to the service for clarity and use of everyday words.
[08:20.080 --> 08:21.560]  And therefore, they were ending it.
[08:22.540 --> 08:23.020]  Yes.
[08:23.300 --> 08:30.040]  A journalist at CFAX itself gave it a heartfelt send-off by writing an emotional farewell letter, which was displayed over the weekend.
[08:30.040 --> 08:31.560]  And we have that letter in front of us right now.
[08:31.620 --> 08:34.500]  In fact, we have it in CFAX format, which you can't see over the air.
[08:34.900 --> 08:36.670]  But it's...
[08:36.670 --> 08:38.170]  How would you describe this?
[08:38.170 --> 08:39.050]  It was in color.
[08:39.360 --> 08:40.430]  Not the way it's printed here.
[08:40.500 --> 08:41.400]  It's very blocky.
[08:41.520 --> 08:45.620]  It's what would be today referred to as like retro 8-bit looking text.
[08:46.070 --> 08:46.260]  Yeah.
[08:46.520 --> 08:47.860]  Definitely 8-bit looking text.
[08:47.930 --> 08:49.170]  But not 8-bit speech.
[08:49.760 --> 08:50.260]  That's for sure.
[08:51.380 --> 08:52.980]  BBC CFAX, it says in big letters.
[08:53.160 --> 08:56.660]  And above that, I might as well tell you what it says on the other bits of data.
[08:57.100 --> 08:58.860]  It says CFAX and then 100.
[08:58.980 --> 09:03.810]  100 was the main channel, the main page of most of these teletext services.
[09:04.310 --> 09:09.170]  And then it says Sunday 21 October 23 56 slash 31.
[09:09.450 --> 09:13.120]  So it's 23 colon 56 and slash 31 for the seconds just so you know what it looks like.
[09:13.450 --> 09:18.860]  Underneath the big headline BBC CFAX, it says, Dear viewer, by the time you read this, I will be dead.
[09:19.420 --> 09:23.280]  When I started out in 1974, I was the future...
[09:23.600 --> 09:24.570]  I will be dead?
[09:24.760 --> 09:25.040]  Yes.
[09:25.840 --> 09:26.160]  Look.
[09:26.400 --> 09:27.260]  This is awfully grim.
[09:27.260 --> 09:28.380]  Can we get through this, please?
[09:28.600 --> 09:29.280]  Evidently not.
[09:29.450 --> 09:31.070]  By the time you read this, I will be dead.
[09:31.220 --> 09:35.760]  When I started out in 1974, I was the future, TV's first robot newsreader.
[09:35.950 --> 09:46.120]  But what once seemed cutting edge is now regarded as hopelessly old fashioned, and I have been frozen out by the powers that be, yet another victim of BBC ageism.
[09:46.670 --> 09:49.540]  This is the thing that won the award for plain English communication?
[09:49.670 --> 09:52.170]  Well, what came before this probably won the award.
[09:52.320 --> 09:55.760]  This is just some bitterness that was being expressed in the last possible moments.
[09:56.360 --> 09:56.960]  Continuing here.
[09:57.540 --> 09:58.640]  I can't take it anymore.
[09:58.720 --> 10:04.580]  It's a struggle to get up for the night shift, and my poor pixels are tired.
[10:04.900 --> 10:07.160]  My friend Oracle said it would end like this.
[10:07.820 --> 10:08.880]  Goodbye, cruel world.
[10:09.580 --> 10:12.260]  And then it says, CFAX, the world at your fingertips.
[10:12.420 --> 10:16.760]  I think that's just their standard signature, but that's how it ended.
[10:17.180 --> 10:17.580]  Wow.
[10:17.720 --> 10:20.540]  So everyone saw that on their TVs, if they looked, and I'm sure most people didn't.
[10:21.360 --> 10:23.560]  It's sad, but we never had anything like this.
[10:24.120 --> 10:26.400]  The closest thing we have to this is closed captioning.
[10:26.620 --> 10:27.780]  And that's not very exciting.
[10:27.960 --> 10:37.200]  There was something back in analog TV days where if you hit the CCTV button enough times, you got a big black square on your set.
[10:37.360 --> 10:41.560]  And I have no idea what that was ever supposed to be used for, but I don't think it ever was used.
[10:41.620 --> 10:42.380]  Bernard, do you have any idea?
[10:43.000 --> 10:48.640]  Not that particular thing, but the way this text was sent over analog television is...
[10:48.640 --> 10:53.580]  Those of us old enough remember the old analog TVs where there was a vertical hold knob.
[10:53.840 --> 10:56.980]  If you turn that thing, you'd see that black bar that would go up and down.
[10:57.480 --> 11:07.140]  Well, there was bits of data that could be modulated into that vertical interval signal, and that could be used to modulate data, kind of like a modem.
[11:08.360 --> 11:16.320]  But, you know, with the BBC, they regulated the TV sets and the programming and all that, so they could just dictate that they were going to have this service.
[11:16.420 --> 11:21.360]  In the U.S., it didn't work that way because the government didn't provide the programming in our country.
[11:21.360 --> 11:36.900]  So it was this chicken-and-egg situation where the TV stations didn't want to buy the content and buy the equipment to broadcast it over their channels, and the TV manufacturers didn't want to spend the money to build the decoding circuitry in their TV sets,
[11:37.320 --> 11:40.340]  or individuals didn't want to buy the decoder boxes.
[11:40.520 --> 11:42.080]  So it just never happened here.
[11:42.160 --> 11:54.280]  But it happened in other countries, including Syria, which just earlier this year, the Syrian Arab News Agency's TV tech service in Damascus, it was hacked by rebels who posted revolutionary messages.
[11:54.620 --> 11:58.220]  And that caused a lot of, you know, concern there to the government.
[11:58.280 --> 11:59.140]  I just think that's great.
[11:59.320 --> 12:01.160]  How long did it take the government to even find out it was happening?
[12:01.340 --> 12:02.380]  Because maybe they don't look at it.
[12:02.520 --> 12:04.640]  Apparently not very long, but they shut it down quickly.
[12:04.980 --> 12:13.740]  Well, I mean, every possible way of communicating something is a possible means of getting the word out of the truth when things get tough.
[12:13.740 --> 12:22.480]  So whether it's SMS or Twitter or teletech services, getting a handle on how it all works and taking it over when you need to.
[12:22.860 --> 12:23.960]  Important skills to have.
[12:24.120 --> 12:24.720]  Oh, and a manual.
[12:24.940 --> 12:25.140]  Yes.
[12:27.060 --> 12:29.500]  What CFAX said in his goodbye message...
[12:29.500 --> 12:30.580]  His goodbye message?
[12:30.720 --> 12:31.440]  His goodbye message.
[12:31.520 --> 12:32.380]  When did it become a mail?
[12:33.080 --> 12:33.760]  Or her...
[12:33.760 --> 12:34.120]  Okay.
[12:34.440 --> 12:35.520]  In its goodbye message.
[12:35.560 --> 12:36.020]  Better, yes.
[12:36.600 --> 12:39.240]  Which said, my friend Oracle said it would end like this.
[12:39.240 --> 12:46.020]  Oracle is a very similar TV text service that was broadcast over ITV, which is...
[12:46.020 --> 12:51.320]  ITV was the UK's commercial broadcast network there.
[12:51.400 --> 12:52.900]  BBC, obviously, was government operated.
[12:53.060 --> 12:55.480]  ITV was a private sector service.
[12:55.480 --> 12:58.820]  But they also had a competing text over TV service called Oracle.
[12:59.000 --> 12:59.380]  So that's...
[12:59.380 --> 12:59.880]  They were not...
[12:59.880 --> 13:00.320]  So...
[13:00.320 --> 13:02.120]  And so did Channel 4 and Channel 5.
[13:02.280 --> 13:03.500]  I don't know if theirs are still operating.
[13:03.500 --> 13:06.180]  I don't know what the channel numbers were, but that's what CFAX was referring to.
[13:06.240 --> 13:10.700]  ITV is Channel 3 and it's regional, but Channel 4 and Channel 5 are two other commercial channels.
[13:11.210 --> 13:16.720]  And last I checked, when I was able to check this, they had teletech services as well, but I don't know if they've turned theirs off.
[13:17.120 --> 13:18.760]  I'm sure our British listeners can tell us this.
[13:18.780 --> 13:20.480]  It has nothing to do with Larry Ellison, this Oracle.
[13:20.480 --> 13:20.700]  No.
[13:20.820 --> 13:24.400]  And also, in France, they recently got rid of Minitel.
[13:24.580 --> 13:24.940]  Minitel.
[13:25.120 --> 13:27.800]  Yeah, which was another pre-internet computerized service.
[13:27.900 --> 13:28.800]  But that was over the phone lines.
[13:28.960 --> 13:29.300]  Right.
[13:29.660 --> 13:30.000]  Yeah.
[13:30.080 --> 13:33.160]  And just to straighten things out, the BBC is, in fact, female.
[13:33.420 --> 13:34.900]  Ask anyone who ITV is.
[13:35.700 --> 13:36.140]  All right.
[13:36.320 --> 13:37.980]  I'm sure we'll get all kinds of mail.
[13:38.000 --> 13:41.520]  And the address to send the mail to is OTH at 2600.com.
[13:41.800 --> 13:43.360]  Staying with television for a moment.
[13:43.360 --> 13:49.540]  It's about to get a bit more difficult to illegally download TV shows or movies or even music online.
[13:49.540 --> 13:53.500]  A new alert system will be rolling out in the next couple of months.
[13:53.660 --> 14:00.620]  And it's going to repeatedly warn and possibly punish people who violate digital copyrights.
[14:00.700 --> 14:02.440]  The Copyright Alert System.
[14:02.660 --> 14:03.580]  Get used to that name.
[14:03.840 --> 14:06.340]  Copyright Alert System was announced last July.
[14:06.340 --> 14:08.080]  And it's been four years in the making.
[14:08.640 --> 14:15.740]  And if you use AT&T, Cablevision, Comcast, Time Warner, or Verizon, then good luck not using one of those as your internet service provider.
[14:15.740 --> 14:20.740]  Does anybody in this room or on the phone not use one of those companies for their internet service provider?
[14:21.600 --> 14:22.520]  I don't hear anything.
[14:22.620 --> 14:22.680]  I don't.
[14:22.680 --> 14:23.080]  You don't?
[14:23.300 --> 14:24.140]  Who do you use, Bernie?
[14:24.920 --> 14:29.540]  I use a wireless WiMAX service through Clearwire.
[14:30.020 --> 14:30.420]  Okay.
[14:30.620 --> 14:30.980]  All right.
[14:31.660 --> 14:33.900]  Well, I'm sure they'll be bought by one of those entities at some point.
[14:34.100 --> 14:34.480]  Oh, maybe.
[14:34.860 --> 14:37.080]  AT&T, Cablevision, Comcast, Time Warner, or Verizon.
[14:37.080 --> 14:42.140]  If you use any of those as your ISP, you could receive the first of one of these notes starting in the next two months.
[14:42.140 --> 14:48.020]  And a special prize to the person who mails us the note they get before anybody else.
[14:48.220 --> 14:56.160]  Now, the internet provider is delivering the message, but the legwork is being done by the copyright owners, which will monitor peer-to-peer networks such as BitTorrent.
[14:56.160 --> 15:04.180]  They use a service called MarkMonitor, which uses a combination of people and automated systems to spot illegal downloading.
[15:04.420 --> 15:07.800]  It'll collect the IP addresses of offenders, but no personal information.
[15:08.000 --> 15:14.380]  Then the IP addresses are turned over to the internet providers, and they match up the address with the right customer and send the notification.
[15:15.100 --> 15:18.140]  Now, the warning system is described as a graduated response.
[15:18.280 --> 15:23.060]  First, the internet provider lets the customer know that their internet connection is being used to download content illegally.
[15:23.060 --> 15:30.700]  The note will include information to steer them away from their life of crime, including tips on how they can download content legally.
[15:31.500 --> 15:41.140]  There will also be tips on securing internet connections just in case you are unaware that your neighbor was downloading Season 3 of Dexter using your unprotected wireless network.
[15:41.660 --> 15:48.900]  The progressive series of alerts is designed to make consumers aware of activity that has occurred using their internet accounts.
[15:48.900 --> 15:54.700]  Educate them on how they can prevent such activity from happening again, said the CCI in an announcement.
[15:55.000 --> 15:59.860]  Now, after the educational phase, the customers will be asked to acknowledge that they received the warning.
[16:00.080 --> 16:09.640]  If they continue to download content illegally, the alerts will threaten mild punishments, such as forcing the copyright violator to read educational materials.
[16:10.020 --> 16:12.900]  That's the punishment, that they have to read educational materials.
[16:12.900 --> 16:16.600]  I can guess how bad these so-called educational materials will be.
[16:16.720 --> 16:17.840]  It might actually be a punishment.
[16:18.040 --> 16:19.340]  Sounds like something they do in China.
[16:19.520 --> 16:22.400]  You'd be forced to sit in a room and read educational materials.
[16:24.180 --> 16:25.060]  Or throttling...
[16:25.880 --> 16:26.320]  Throttling...
[16:26.320 --> 16:27.020]  No, no, don't panic.
[16:27.120 --> 16:33.880]  Throttling their internet connection so that it is slow, making it harder to download large files.
[16:33.880 --> 16:40.800]  Now, terminating the internet service apparently is not one of the options, but making 300 baud apparently is.
[16:40.960 --> 16:42.740]  So that could be where we're heading.
[16:43.100 --> 16:56.160]  The entire system is going to be overseen by an organization called the Center for Copyright Information, which includes content owners such as our good friends at the MPAA and the RIAA, as well as individual members, including Disney, Sony Pictures, Fox,
[16:56.540 --> 16:58.100]  EMI, and Universal.
[16:58.460 --> 17:01.840]  And each ISP will have a slightly different version of the system.
[17:01.840 --> 17:04.060]  You know, I'm very curious about this.
[17:04.180 --> 17:11.100]  If I already subscribe to all the channels and I download a TV program, is that still illegal?
[17:11.380 --> 17:14.990]  Or if I own the album and I download the music, is that still illegal?
[17:15.210 --> 17:19.530]  Under the copyright maximalists' interpretation of the law, yes.
[17:19.640 --> 17:21.060]  What's a copyright maximalist?
[17:21.210 --> 17:25.470]  The people who try and say that everything's against the copyright law.
[17:26.330 --> 17:28.490]  And you read their names earlier.
[17:29.590 --> 17:37.340]  You know, I was faced with this problem again, and I've talked about this before, where I was trying to download an album and it wasn't available on a domestic site.
[17:37.360 --> 17:38.860]  It was available on the UK site.
[17:39.010 --> 17:40.100]  It wasn't allowed to do it.
[17:40.180 --> 17:42.120]  It wasn't allowed to download the album.
[17:42.400 --> 17:48.140]  And the only way to find it was through one of those suspicious sites where it's really, really cheap or for free.
[17:48.340 --> 17:52.680]  I decided to go with the one that cost a little bit of money, but I could have done it for free just as easily.
[17:53.380 --> 17:54.790]  And they make it hard.
[17:55.010 --> 17:58.360]  So, a lot of times people are driven to this because they make it so hard.
[17:59.140 --> 18:03.580]  Other times, you know, you have to wonder just how much of the law is on their side.
[18:03.580 --> 18:12.040]  It's just funny seeing how far things have come because about a hundred years ago, I was an early adopter of cable internet out on Long Island when I used to live there.
[18:12.230 --> 18:16.780]  And one of these notices showed up at my house.
[18:16.880 --> 18:29.100]  Not this particular notice, but it's great, great, great grandfather because it was just kind of a casual note written by what sounded like a bemused sysadmin going, hey, it looks like so-and-so was downloaded off your account, just cut that out, would you?
[18:29.860 --> 18:31.760]  And it was a far more casual thing.
[18:31.900 --> 18:35.280]  And, you know, legal mumbo-jumbo didn't even enter into it.
[18:35.420 --> 18:39.840]  So, that's... and that was fine, you know?
[18:40.020 --> 18:45.140]  So, I don't think this is going to stop anyone from downloading because nobody doesn't know.
[18:45.820 --> 18:47.660]  There are ways of bypassing.
[18:47.700 --> 18:53.040]  You can use Tor, you can use various other methods of not being tracked so easily.
[18:53.040 --> 18:55.710]  And there was also the matter of the educational materials.
[18:55.710 --> 18:57.470]  If it's anything like YouTube's...
[18:57.470 --> 19:03.120]  Some time ago, I had one of my videos on YouTube that I owned falsely identified by Fox as their property.
[19:03.340 --> 19:05.960]  And so my account got put under copyright notice.
[19:06.100 --> 19:21.420]  And before I could do anything else, even dispute the claim, I had to watch YouTube videos of what they called copyright school, which was cartoon furry animals in all sorts of scenarios about, like, this is, you know, copyrighted material and you can't have this and you can't upload that.
[19:21.420 --> 19:23.730]  And it was really as bad as it sounds.
[19:23.800 --> 19:38.760]  You know, what's really annoying is when you pay for the content, when you buy the damn DVD and you have to sit through a minute and a half of lectures about downloading content or pirating movies or things like that, when you have bought the damn thing and the people who do pirate it cut that out so they don't even see it.
[19:39.200 --> 19:42.730]  So, you know, that really makes me not want to buy it in the future.
[19:42.970 --> 19:45.320]  And also, you know, the amount of time it takes to open it too.
[19:45.320 --> 19:51.380]  Yeah, it's just the latest move by the industry to punish their legitimate customers while making life no more difficult for the pirates.
[19:51.680 --> 19:51.920]  Mm-hmm.
[19:52.120 --> 19:52.660]  Yeah, absolutely.
[19:53.900 --> 19:57.710]  So, yeah, that's progress, I guess, progress of a sort.
[19:58.960 --> 20:01.380]  Anything else in the news that we want to discuss?
[20:01.380 --> 20:10.000]  I think we should move on to the program as far as our fundraising tonight because, yes, it is, in fact, another fundraising show.
[20:10.720 --> 20:16.640]  And we are, in fact, doing another special program.
[20:17.940 --> 20:21.230]  And Bernie, perhaps you'd like to introduce our special guest who joins us now on the telephone.
[20:21.600 --> 20:22.600]  Oh, Andrew.
[20:22.840 --> 20:23.680]  Is Andrew on the line?
[20:23.780 --> 20:24.420]  I think he is.
[20:24.920 --> 20:25.260]  All right.
[20:25.600 --> 20:26.970]  In fact, I hear us.
[20:27.080 --> 20:29.280]  If someone could turn down their radio on the phone, that would be very helpful.
[20:29.520 --> 20:35.960]  Well, I will introduce Andrew Patrick Zahn, who is an artist and curator in Philadelphia.
[20:36.730 --> 20:40.560]  And he convened a really interesting panel at the Hope No.
[20:40.640 --> 20:48.210]  9 conference this past July about art in the hacker community or hacking in the art community.
[20:48.400 --> 20:49.730]  It was called...
[20:51.420 --> 20:52.920]  Gee, what was it called, Andrew?
[20:53.230 --> 20:56.470]  The Emergence of Hacker as Artist and Artist as Hacker.
[20:57.000 --> 20:57.700]  There you go.
[20:58.580 --> 20:59.020]  Yes.
[20:59.280 --> 21:01.420]  The Emergence of Hacker as Artist and Artist as Hacker.
[21:01.540 --> 21:01.600]  Okay.
[21:01.800 --> 21:03.260]  Well, Andrew, let me ask you then.
[21:03.260 --> 21:07.440]  This is something that we've seen happen over the years.
[21:07.880 --> 21:12.440]  We've seen hackers and artists sort of share the stage.
[21:12.620 --> 21:15.320]  We've seen more artistic expression in the hacker world.
[21:15.320 --> 21:19.120]  And we see more of an interest in what hackers are doing in the artistic world.
[21:19.710 --> 21:27.620]  Tell us something about what you discussed in this panel discussion and how you see the hacker world evolving in a more artistic way.
[21:28.680 --> 21:37.800]  Well, really, the panel was three artists who also kind of considered themselves hackers in a way.
[21:37.940 --> 21:42.800]  And not so much hackers who have become artists.
[21:43.000 --> 21:49.180]  But in a way, after some discussion, it kind of became clear that it was going both ways.
[21:49.180 --> 21:54.360]  So, the panel mostly was about that.
[21:55.320 --> 21:58.240]  And I'm not sure if you have any of the clips that I sent you.
[21:58.920 --> 22:01.260]  Maybe you could play a couple of them that might be helpful.
[22:01.680 --> 22:02.840]  Actually, we do have a clip.
[22:03.340 --> 22:04.760]  Should we play that right away?
[22:04.840 --> 22:06.560]  Or would you like to intro it a little bit more?
[22:07.560 --> 22:08.200]  Yeah, sure.
[22:08.340 --> 22:10.180]  I don't know which clip you are going to play.
[22:10.340 --> 22:11.160]  We're going to play all of them.
[22:11.220 --> 22:13.480]  It's only about six minutes long.
[22:13.640 --> 22:14.800]  But it's basically sort of a...
[22:15.400 --> 22:19.660]  It's a good collage of people describing what we're talking about tonight.
[22:20.380 --> 22:21.840]  Yeah, well, I would say so.
[22:22.860 --> 22:29.500]  We have William Cromar, who is a kind of installation artist.
[22:30.260 --> 22:36.300]  And we have Katherine Bennett, who is also kind of a sound installation artist.
[22:36.720 --> 22:40.760]  And Chris Thompson, who is kind of the most hackery of the three.
[22:40.900 --> 22:46.060]  And he is a member of Hive 76, which is a hacker space in Philadelphia.
[22:47.920 --> 23:02.100]  And he's doing some stuff with 3D printing and kind of, I guess, bit distortions or kind of experimenting with more patterns and things like this.
[23:02.540 --> 23:03.100]  So...
[23:03.100 --> 23:03.240]  All right.
[23:03.280 --> 23:13.760]  Well, let's hear from some of those people who appeared in the panel discussion at this year's HOPE conference, The Emergence of Hacker as Artist and Artist as Hacker.
[23:13.760 --> 23:19.660]  And when we come back, we'll get into what it is that we're offering tonight, which I think you'll be blown away by.
[23:20.480 --> 23:25.680]  A lot of diverse things, including some things from right here in the studio and some things from different parts of the country.
[23:26.400 --> 23:30.700]  But for now, let's have a very brief listen to some of that panel discussion.
[23:30.920 --> 23:37.680]  So, I would like you to describe sort of maybe if you could describe in a specific project that you've done.
[23:37.680 --> 23:53.940]  And if you could come up with, like, what's your own take on, like, what the definition of art or what art is for you and then sort of like to clarify if you're a hacker artist or an artist who uses, like, tools of the hacking community.
[23:54.220 --> 23:54.940]  Like, of course.
[23:55.680 --> 23:57.360]  I mean, everything goes.
[23:57.600 --> 24:00.360]  This is not a value judgment, just to clarify the terms.
[24:01.180 --> 24:02.500]  Hi, my name is Catherine.
[24:03.200 --> 24:06.100]  I come from an actual artist background.
[24:06.440 --> 24:08.500]  I started out in sculpture.
[24:09.140 --> 24:14.740]  And I came to technology because I was working with lights and I wanted to do more things with lights.
[24:14.940 --> 24:23.260]  So, it's a really gradual pull, even though my father and my brothers are all engineers and they all had computers going all the time.
[24:23.500 --> 24:29.360]  And around the Thanksgiving table, we always talked about, like, internet and all kinds of technological things.
[24:29.500 --> 24:31.600]  And my mother and I really hated that.
[24:32.320 --> 24:44.440]  But, um, as time wore on in my practice and I started wanting to do things more with lights, I got into timing and sensors and then wanting to control them on my own instead of having to work with engineers.
[24:44.660 --> 24:46.560]  So, I really wanted independence with that.
[24:47.660 --> 24:54.820]  So, I kind of hacked into it that way, if you could say, rather than, like, coming from, like, a straight technological, like, background.
[24:54.820 --> 25:03.800]  But now I do all kinds of things, like, I'm working with Asterix and, you know, working with, like, websites and PHP and all kinds of fun things.
[25:04.880 --> 25:20.080]  I'm thinking, well, a text that we use, um, in, in new media to kind of gear the people up for what they're about to enter, um, is, uh, Paul Graham's, uh, Hackers and Painters.
[25:20.080 --> 25:25.260]  This was an article that he wrote about, or, like, an essay that he wrote about ten years ago.
[25:25.400 --> 25:26.460]  Is anybody familiar with it?
[25:27.340 --> 25:31.380]  Um, you can find it pretty easy on Paul Graham's website.
[25:31.780 --> 25:35.500]  Um, and what he does is kind of interesting in there.
[25:35.620 --> 25:43.280]  He kind of talks about, in even slightly more than metaphorical ways, how hackers are like painters and how painters are like hackers.
[25:43.280 --> 25:44.720]  And he has a pretty good sense.
[25:44.880 --> 25:47.980]  He comes at it from a kind of computing perspective.
[25:48.600 --> 25:52.820]  He has a pretty good sense of what makes a painter a painter and how they relate.
[25:53.080 --> 26:03.000]  And one of the things that he does in there, and I think this is maybe, uh, 2003, so it's maybe, maybe the first time that these, that this kind of rhetoric is coming out.
[26:03.180 --> 26:05.160]  He calls them all makers.
[26:05.830 --> 26:10.600]  The last collaborative project I did, I did with my girlfriend, I wanted to learn book design.
[26:10.960 --> 26:17.040]  And so I did the book design for, um, Edgar Allan Poe book, uh, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym.
[26:17.540 --> 26:23.260]  And she did, she's a book artist, so she did, like, the, um, the construction and the cover.
[26:23.580 --> 26:28.800]  And it never got finished, and we fought about it, and I didn't really want to do anything like that anymore.
[26:30.560 --> 26:32.540]  But there's another book project.
[26:32.540 --> 26:35.880]  I want to make an exploding book of secrets.
[26:36.180 --> 26:43.360]  So you can take cotton and soak it in some acid, I forget, and it turns into gun cotton, which is explosive.
[26:43.680 --> 26:53.380]  So I want to make a book out of, like, nice cotton paper, and everyone's going to write their secrets in it in pencil, and then we're going to turn it into an explosive and set off a book of secrets.
[26:54.240 --> 26:54.760]  Yeah.
[26:55.080 --> 26:57.160]  So I need, I need a performance.
[26:57.160 --> 26:58.980]  I need, I need a chemist.
[26:59.200 --> 27:03.900]  I need a, a vat, a vat of acid, if anyone wants to collaborate on exploding book of secrets.
[27:04.440 --> 27:05.320]  Oh, all right.
[27:06.620 --> 27:07.280]  Moving on.
[27:07.560 --> 27:22.840]  I always have a lot of problem with this, you know, because I started out in, in sculpture, and so when I was using, you know, I'd say I'm a sculptor that uses technology, and this is before I really, I was abroad for a while, and relatively under a rock,
[27:22.920 --> 27:27.040]  I guess you could say, you know, and I had no idea what people were doing with interactivity.
[27:27.500 --> 27:36.060]  So when I talk about, like, interaction, and design, and, you know, when I try to talk to other people, it really becomes a challenge.
[27:36.260 --> 27:38.380]  If I, to me, it really depends on the audience.
[27:38.380 --> 27:46.640]  You know, if I'm talking to a hacker, you know, say someone here, it's very different than if I'm at another technology conference.
[27:46.840 --> 27:52.880]  It's very different if I'm at an art opening, you know, it's very different if I'm talking to a grandmother.
[27:53.300 --> 28:00.240]  You know, it, it really depends how I, how I classify myself, because it's, to me, it's more about communicating with that individual.
[28:01.340 --> 28:06.160]  So it's, I don't feel like I have, like, a steady label, unfortunately.
[28:06.160 --> 28:13.380]  And maybe that's a great thing in, in having it be something that's relatively fresh and something that's relatively evolving.
[28:13.820 --> 28:27.280]  I don't think I would ever really consider myself a hacker, but the more I think about it, you know, over the last few months, and the more I think about, like, my approach to technology than some other individual's approach to technology and being here,
[28:27.380 --> 28:32.660]  it is quite different, you know, because I look at technology as, as a means to an end.
[28:32.900 --> 28:36.780]  You know, I think it's a beautiful thing when you can achieve certain things in technology.
[28:37.220 --> 28:46.120]  And sometimes, you know, you kind of go along and you're on these paths and, you know, you have a goal and then, you know, along the way you realize these other things that can happen.
[28:46.360 --> 28:50.940]  You realize the other possibilities of that medium or of that language that you're within.
[28:51.140 --> 28:55.540]  But that doesn't necessarily mean that I'll be married to that language for forever.
[28:55.540 --> 29:06.780]  Or I'll be married to that, that particular medium for forever, you know, because I'm, I'm after a different, I have a different thing that drives me than some other people may.
[29:07.060 --> 29:16.480]  So my, as a result of that, I think how I label myself tends to evolve a bit as a result of who I'm talking to in order to satisfy that.
[29:16.480 --> 29:17.280]  Okay.
[29:17.480 --> 29:23.600]  And that was a piece from the Hope panel called The Emergence of Hacker as Artist and Artist as Hacker.
[29:24.260 --> 29:26.500]  And it's, it's one of the things that we're offering tonight.
[29:26.500 --> 29:28.340]  We're going to get into the details of that in just a moment.
[29:28.500 --> 29:32.160]  We're on the phone with Andrew Zahn, who was part of that.
[29:32.380 --> 29:39.220]  And Andrew, I believe you're also putting together a book of, of hacker art, which we're also offering here tonight.
[29:39.600 --> 29:41.000]  Can you describe that a little bit?
[29:41.000 --> 29:42.040]  Yeah.
[29:42.260 --> 29:45.160]  So I just want to back up a little bit.
[29:45.320 --> 29:50.680]  So this panel discussion was the second one that we did.
[29:50.840 --> 30:00.700]  So the first one was that this Hack Philly event that was part of Hack Philly Tech Week back in April.
[30:00.960 --> 30:20.060]  And so this whole project and this whole concept came out of research I was doing about hackerspaces and realizing that people in these spaces were really creating art in a lot of cases, but they, there was no forum for them or venue for them to kind of display this work.
[30:20.200 --> 30:25.580]  And also the language they were using was quite different from that of, of artists that I, that I deal with.
[30:25.640 --> 30:30.360]  And I, you know, I'm, I'm an artist, but also a designer and I guess a hacker on some level.
[30:30.360 --> 30:35.600]  And, um, so this, this event, it was called Hack Philly.com.
[30:35.880 --> 30:59.240]  And basically it invited, uh, hackers from different hacker spaces in Philadelphia to submit work that was, you know, uh, really kind of hackery, you know, things that they were doing that, that were art, but at the same time, um, some kind of technology based work.
[30:59.240 --> 31:08.220]  So, uh, the, the actual exhibition was called hack colon and technology based, uh, art and design exhibition.
[31:08.680 --> 31:11.540]  So, so what was your question?
[31:12.100 --> 31:18.820]  Uh, well, actually I'd like you to describe the book because, uh, I just want to do that for the benefit of listeners who want to get involved in this.
[31:19.280 --> 31:19.740]  Yeah.
[31:19.820 --> 31:49.320]  So basically, um, this exhibition, um, featured approximately, um, I would say, I think 16 hacker artists, um, and so this book is some research that I did about hacker spaces and also kind of new media and how the two are kind of starting to merge together that the hackers and artists are sort of becoming one thing.
[31:49.820 --> 31:54.280]  Um, and there's, there's no longer kind of a barrier, um, between the two.
[31:54.280 --> 32:16.320]  And so, and so this, this, this catalog or book that, um, I've been putting together is a full color, um, catalog of the work that was exhibited in the show as well as kind of, um, statements and conceptual, um, pieces from, from the, um, the hacker artists themselves.
[32:17.000 --> 32:21.600]  And also, like I said, um, a lot of research about, about this.
[32:21.960 --> 32:27.140]  Um, so, uh, what's, what's the, uh, what's the title of the book?
[32:28.020 --> 32:32.120]  Well, I mean, it's, I, I think it's, it's the same title.
[32:32.280 --> 32:36.880]  It's called hack and, or hack a technology based design and art exhibition.
[32:36.880 --> 32:54.280]  And so it's kind of like, you know, about the exhibition, but it's also about kind of all the research and synthesis that I did to come to this point, um, about our hackerspaces and people working hackerspaces like artists or who are artists working.
[32:54.640 --> 32:55.160]  Okay.
[32:55.380 --> 33:01.180]  Uh, so that book, uh, is something that we're offering to listeners tonight who call in to support the radio station.
[33:01.380 --> 33:04.120]  Uh, but we're also offering a couple of things with that.
[33:04.120 --> 33:08.100]  In fact, for a pledge of $75, you have a choice right now.
[33:08.220 --> 33:09.800]  And we're going to get into the choice in just a moment.
[33:10.240 --> 33:19.980]  Um, for a pledge of $75, you get the book, uh, which, um, is, is being put together right now and should be, should be ready in a, I guess about a month or so.
[33:20.440 --> 33:22.220]  Uh, it's a perfect bound book.
[33:22.480 --> 33:24.280]  That's, that's the printing terminology.
[33:24.580 --> 33:25.100]  Perfect bound.
[33:25.320 --> 33:26.120]  You've heard it before, right?
[33:26.580 --> 33:27.740]  I don't know who hasn't.
[33:28.340 --> 33:29.040]  I don't know.
[33:29.140 --> 33:30.160]  Maybe somebody hasn't.
[33:30.460 --> 33:33.040]  Well, then they should pledge for the premium.
[33:33.220 --> 33:33.340]  Okay.
[33:34.120 --> 33:34.320]  Yeah.
[33:35.100 --> 33:35.200]  Anyway.
[33:35.380 --> 33:42.500]  So, um, uh, the, the, the, the book on hacker art, uh, for a pledge of $75, but you have a choice of, and this is interesting.
[33:42.580 --> 33:42.940]  Pay attention.
[33:43.120 --> 33:43.700]  It's very interesting.
[33:44.000 --> 33:48.940]  Hacker painting, a hacker painting or some hacker photographs.
[33:49.100 --> 33:51.280]  Now we're going to get into the painting first and we're going to get into the photographs.
[33:51.440 --> 33:51.980]  Now, Rob T.
[33:52.080 --> 33:56.300]  Firefly, you're the person putting together the hacker paintings.
[33:56.400 --> 33:58.640]  I believe they're five by seven in measurement.
[33:59.080 --> 34:01.600]  Um, you want to tell us something about what these will be?
[34:01.600 --> 34:02.480]  Yes, indeed.
[34:02.880 --> 34:04.900]  Um, I, uh, I am a painter.
[34:05.060 --> 34:12.280]  I've, uh, I've, I've, uh, I created paintings, uh, seen on the walls that, uh, past hopes and, uh, things like that.
[34:12.280 --> 34:19.230]  And, um, this time what I'm going to be doing is are some five by seven paintings in acrylic paint on stretched canvas.
[34:19.460 --> 34:22.520]  This is an actual canvas, not a canvas board or cardboard or anything like that.
[34:22.880 --> 34:30.280]  And, uh, I'm going to be painting some old computers, some, uh, just some various, uh, some various old, uh, computers from computing history.
[34:31.520 --> 34:36.050]  And I'm, uh, I'm going to be, I'm going to be offering this for a pledge of $75.
[34:36.640 --> 34:39.650]  So you get that and you get the book for a pledge of $75.
[34:39.780 --> 34:41.040]  And every painting is going to be different.
[34:41.170 --> 34:41.360]  Yes.
[34:41.460 --> 34:43.570]  Every painting is going to be different, uh, signed, numbered.
[34:43.800 --> 34:46.280]  I'm only doing the series for, for this event.
[34:46.400 --> 34:50.920]  So you have to call today during the next, uh, 25 minutes or so to get hold of one.
[34:50.920 --> 34:51.670]  Okay.
[34:51.900 --> 35:00.130]  Now, um, we have Kyle on the phone from Seattle, who is, uh, the, um, the staff photographer for, uh, 2600 and, and various other entities.
[35:00.610 --> 35:06.860]  And, uh, recently Kyle, uh, you were involved in helping to put together the surveillance calendar for next year, 2013.
[35:07.840 --> 35:15.230]  And, uh, I believe that involved a couple of, um, of real standout, uh, pictures that we're offering tonight for, uh, for a different pledge of $75.
[35:15.520 --> 35:15.790]  Is that correct?
[35:16.610 --> 35:17.070]  Um, yeah.
[35:17.070 --> 35:24.850]  Uh, we selected two of the photos in particular that, that were, um, part of my contribution to the 2013 Hacker Calendar.
[35:25.190 --> 35:33.000]  And, um, I'm going to print them as, um, archival digital offset prints, uh, 13 by 19 inches.
[35:33.570 --> 35:37.160]  And, um, each pledge will get two copies.
[35:38.000 --> 35:40.170]  They'll be, um, signed and, uh, numbered.
[35:40.540 --> 35:44.850]  Uh, and so it's a little bit bigger format than, um, than what you would see on the calendar.
[35:44.850 --> 35:50.960]  And, and we felt those were the, the two that, um, sort of epitomized the, uh, the theme of the calendar.
[35:51.150 --> 35:54.850]  And I think that's a nice gift for people that, uh, donate to WBAI tonight.
[35:55.050 --> 35:55.400]  Absolutely.
[35:55.590 --> 35:57.770]  And let me just briefly describe these, these two pictures.
[35:57.900 --> 35:59.070]  I was on scene for each of them.
[35:59.570 --> 36:05.290]  Uh, one involves, uh, the National Security Agency, uh, taking that great personal risk.
[36:05.290 --> 36:08.520]  And in fact, we wound up in a bit of trouble for being there for too long.
[36:08.850 --> 36:12.460]  Uh, and it's basically, uh, a picture of the compound.
[36:12.850 --> 36:13.960]  Um, pretty clear.
[36:14.110 --> 36:14.980]  I mean, very clear actually.
[36:15.420 --> 36:23.190]  Uh, but, uh, clear as far as, as showing where the buildings are and things that they kind of don't want you to see, even though it's right there in public view.
[36:23.270 --> 36:25.670]  If you try to take pictures of this, you will get pulled over.
[36:25.810 --> 36:26.570]  You will get in trouble.
[36:26.570 --> 36:34.330]  The other picture is from Menwith Hill in Northern England, uh, which, uh, I think it's, it's the other end of the NSA.
[36:34.330 --> 36:42.350]  It's where there's a lot of, uh, listening going on in Europe, uh, to, um, uh, to various, uh, you want to describe that Kyle, that, that particular, uh, place.
[36:42.460 --> 36:44.070]  Cause that was really strange.
[36:44.610 --> 36:57.690]  Yeah, it's, uh, it's in a really quiet, um, sort of, uh, farming, uh, area, big rolling hills and, uh, you know, grass and just beautiful, um, English landscapes there.
[36:58.000 --> 36:59.290]  And it's, it's really quiet.
[36:59.460 --> 37:02.630]  And then you, you see all these sort of golf ball looking structures.
[37:02.670 --> 37:03.850]  That's how they've been described.
[37:04.050 --> 37:05.750]  They're, they're ray domes is what they're called.
[37:05.850 --> 37:10.050]  And they're, they're white round domes, um, off in the distance.
[37:10.230 --> 37:27.130]  And this, this whole comp compound is a, um, is a listening post that's, um, managed or secured by the, um, RAF and then operated by the Americans to, um, to catch, uh, all kinds of, uh, radio signals and stuff like that.
[37:27.250 --> 37:31.350]  So it, it's a really, really quiet place that has a whole lot of noise.
[37:32.090 --> 37:36.850]  Well, and again, it's, uh, it, it's, it's really risky to take pictures of this.
[37:36.940 --> 37:42.500]  Uh, what you left out though was the fact that there are some, uh, some very nice looking sheep in the foreground of this picture.
[37:42.590 --> 37:47.050]  In fact, that's what we spent about an hour and a half pretending to look at while you were taking pictures of the ray domes.
[37:47.290 --> 37:47.710]  Yeah.
[37:47.880 --> 38:05.750]  We, we sort of, um, uh, adopted, uh, one of the farms for ourselves and, uh, um, uh, had pleasant company, uh, with, with, uh, the sheep being there and, uh, just chatted and, uh, enjoyed the view and, uh, captured a couple photographs of, of this iconic,
[38:05.750 --> 38:08.270]  um, listening post.
[38:08.590 --> 38:10.270]  So this is what we have tonight, folks.
[38:10.400 --> 38:12.750]  We've got the, um, um, two possibilities.
[38:12.750 --> 38:15.570]  You can go with the, um, the hacker painting that Rob T.
[38:15.670 --> 38:17.210]  Firefly is, is going to put together.
[38:17.770 --> 38:28.290]  Especially for you, you'll have the only one of its kind, signed, numbered, uh, and you'll also get a copy of the, uh, the hacker art book, uh, that our friend Andrew Zahn is putting together.
[38:28.290 --> 38:46.460]  Um, or for a $75 pledge, you'll get the book plus two of Kyle's photographs of surveillance capitals of the planet, which, uh, you know, if you hang these up, um, you might want to take them down if the authorities come knocking because we live in a society where,
[38:46.730 --> 38:48.810]  uh, you're not supposed to be watching the watchers this much.
[38:48.980 --> 38:53.670]  This is the best, uh, kind of picture you will get of these entities.
[38:53.670 --> 39:00.310]  Go ahead, try finding a picture of the NSA or men with Hill that you can simply, uh, hang up on your wall, 13 by 19.
[39:00.670 --> 39:05.270]  And, uh, uh, it's, uh, very detailed, very, very, uh, very much detailed.
[39:05.380 --> 39:15.960]  If now, if you, if you're a split and you're going crazy and you want both of them, we have a solution for you for a pledge of $125, you'll get both the painting, the two photographs and the book.
[39:16.040 --> 39:19.710]  Plus we'll even throw in four hacker art DVDs.
[39:19.710 --> 39:27.540]  And what I mean by that is there were four different talks at the, uh, the hacker conference, the hope hacker conference this summer, uh, that had to do with hacker art.
[39:27.610 --> 39:30.810]  There was, uh, the emergence of hacker as artists and artists as hacker, which we played a little bit of.
[39:30.940 --> 39:43.170]  Uh, there was a, uh, for Macon's talk, community fabrication, four years later, um, uh, dead in a pool of blood and millions of dollars of net art with Jeremiah Johnson and Don Miller, known as no carrier and, uh, no sleep.
[39:43.170 --> 39:51.350]  Um, and also hacking mindsets, conceptual approaches to transmission, art, improvisation, circuit bending, and gaming technology.
[39:51.520 --> 39:55.250]  You get all four of those talks thrown in for a pledge of $125 as well.
[39:55.350 --> 40:09.170]  So again, $75, you get a choice of the hacker painting or the hacker photos, plus the hacker art book for $125, you get everything plus the hacker art, uh, DVDs from, uh, from various talks at the, uh, hope conference.
[40:09.170 --> 40:12.090]  It's 212-209-2950 is the number to call.
[40:12.230 --> 40:19.880]  Again, we're only offering this for, uh, for the next few minutes, uh, while we're on the air tonight, because that's how rare these are.
[40:20.210 --> 40:27.960]  Uh, we, our two artists in residence are, are, are signing and numbering each one of these, uh, these particular prints because they're not available anyplace else.
[40:28.540 --> 40:34.790]  And the hacker art book is, uh, is, is also something that, uh, you're not going to see in a whole lot of plays.
[40:34.900 --> 40:38.310]  You're not going to see it in, in, in, um, uh, mainstream America.
[40:38.310 --> 40:40.480]  It's going to be something really pretty cool.
[40:40.650 --> 40:44.460]  Now, uh, Andrew, how, uh, um, how long have you been working on this book?
[40:45.910 --> 40:49.670]  Uh, I've been working on this book since, um, since May.
[40:50.810 --> 40:53.150]  And, um, it's, it's coming along.
[40:53.380 --> 40:54.310]  It's, it's a lot of work.
[40:54.500 --> 40:59.480]  But, um, you know, uh, also I, I will throw in, I will also sign the book.
[41:01.290 --> 41:01.690]  Awesome.
[41:01.940 --> 41:03.770]  So we have a lot of things being signed.
[41:03.920 --> 41:06.880]  A lot of things are being signed tonight, but, um...
[41:06.880 --> 41:08.350]  Good night to be a pen manufacturer.
[41:08.350 --> 41:09.150]  It is, yes.
[41:09.330 --> 41:09.550]  Yeah.
[41:10.040 --> 41:12.540]  Um, so that's, that's really, uh, cool as well.
[41:12.610 --> 41:14.130]  So it's a, it's a well-rounded package.
[41:14.330 --> 41:27.210]  I recommend the 125 myself because you get the painting, you get two photographs of, um, of surveillance, um, that, uh, really will stand out and, and draw a lot of, well, not, it's not gonna draw a lot of, uh, attention you don't want.
[41:27.400 --> 41:30.850]  It'll draw a lot of attention from your friends and, and loved ones who say, wow, look at that.
[41:30.960 --> 41:34.040]  And so much detail, uh, that, uh, that you'll see there.
[41:34.290 --> 41:39.770]  Uh, you'll get the books, the book, you'll get the, uh, four DVDs, uh, 212, 209, 2950.
[41:39.960 --> 41:41.670]  Most importantly though, you're supporting the radio station.
[41:41.770 --> 41:44.570]  That's why we do this so that we can stay on the air talking about such things.
[41:44.670 --> 41:52.440]  I mean, we talk about, uh, the, the, uh, merging of the hacker community and the artistic community, uh, where else we hear a conversation like that.
[41:52.520 --> 41:53.730]  We talk about surveillance.
[41:53.920 --> 42:00.880]  We talk about, uh, the dangers of, uh, of everyone being listened to constantly, uh, throughout the world.
[42:00.980 --> 42:02.880]  You're not gonna hear that any place else as well.
[42:03.230 --> 42:09.170]  So your call to 212, 209, 2950 is a voice of support so that we can continue having these conversations.
[42:09.230 --> 42:19.230]  And as a result of you supporting us, you also get these really, really cool things that are donated by these artists that, uh, that are a very big part of the hacker community.
[42:21.380 --> 42:26.550]  I mean, it's a, it's a really, uh, go ahead in a second, Bernie, but I just want to say it's really amazing.
[42:26.550 --> 42:29.770]  You get all this art, um, for not a very large amount of money.
[42:29.880 --> 42:33.790]  Uh, in addition to help keeping us on the air, you can decorate, you know, your whole apartment.
[42:34.070 --> 42:38.710]  If you have a small apartment, like many of us have, um, 212, 209, 2950.
[42:39.040 --> 42:40.550]  You, you'll, for your pledge is $75.
[42:40.710 --> 42:48.730]  In addition to the, uh, to the catalog, the book, you'll, you'll get, uh, your choice of a painting or, um, a set of two photographs.
[42:49.090 --> 42:53.690]  And if that's not, uh, making that choice is too difficult for you, then pledge $125.
[42:54.210 --> 43:06.610]  You'll get the painting, the catalog, the photographs, and, uh, the, the DVDs, which is just really, you'll be immersed in this sort of nascent intersection of the hacker community and the art community.
[43:06.610 --> 43:08.440]  And I think it's really kind of amazing.
[43:08.750 --> 43:10.090]  And, uh, let me just point out two things.
[43:10.150 --> 43:15.090]  First of all, um, uh, I, I was looking at some, uh, some online art shows that are taking place.
[43:15.230 --> 43:16.940]  In fact, WBAI is having one right now.
[43:17.330 --> 43:24.710]  Uh, and, uh, you know, I'm amazed by the things people contribute, the, uh, the artwork and the things that are being produced today.
[43:25.190 --> 43:37.920]  And if you look at what art goes for, if you go to an art show on, on the west side or you just wander around an art gallery, uh, you see pictures, uh, and when we say pictures or photographs, we're not really doing it justice because they're prints, they're,
[43:37.920 --> 43:40.310]  they're big prints, uh, suitable for framing.
[43:40.730 --> 43:46.480]  Um, they go for a couple of thousand dollars many times if it's especially good print.
[43:46.620 --> 43:50.480]  And these are very good prints and, and, and Rob is a very good painter.
[43:50.750 --> 43:56.120]  Uh, so these are works of art that, uh, were they in a gallery would have no hesitation.
[43:56.290 --> 43:57.700]  And I'm not, I'm not kidding.
[43:57.770 --> 44:02.420]  When I say this, no hesitation in people bidding for them, uh, quite fiercely, I think.
[44:02.420 --> 44:08.850]  And in fact, I look forward to the day when you guys are in, uh, some kind of art auction and you see just how valuable, uh, your work is.
[44:09.270 --> 44:11.120]  And, uh, I mean, you guys are just beginning.
[44:11.290 --> 44:15.350]  You guys are just beginning and, and there was just so much left to do, left to express.
[44:16.250 --> 44:19.660]  And, um, what we're offering here tonight is a gift to our listeners.
[44:19.830 --> 44:20.400]  It really is.
[44:20.600 --> 44:33.160]  Um, by, by you helping us out, we want to extend this to you from, from really talented individuals, uh, in the form of the book, in the form of the painting, in the form of the, of the, uh, the prints, the photographs.
[44:33.640 --> 44:38.210]  Um, and something that I think you'll treasure for, for the remainder of your days on this planet.
[44:38.380 --> 44:39.580]  That's, that's how good I think it is.
[44:39.680 --> 44:41.290]  212-209-2950.
[44:42.520 --> 44:50.180]  Uh, Kyle, could you just describe the, uh, the, the nature of the print, like what kind of process it is so people know, uh, what, what exactly they're getting?
[44:50.950 --> 44:52.020]  Oh, yeah, sure.
[44:52.230 --> 45:06.160]  Um, so yeah, we're just reminding people that, um, you know, we need to support the station and so we can continue to keep our ear to the ground, all puns intended, um, uh, with off the hook and, uh, bringing news to people.
[45:06.310 --> 45:10.440]  And as far as, uh, the print goes, uh, they are good reminders.
[45:10.600 --> 45:23.330]  Like if you're decorating your place, you can remember the station and remember, um, the issues that we bring, um, bring to you, like, uh, from the hacker kind of underworld, as we say, and, and community and, and keep people informed.
[45:23.330 --> 45:40.480]  Um, but these reminders, um, are going to be printed, um, as, uh, archival prints on really good quality paper and, uh, uh, uh, using a digital offset process, which is sort of the latest, latest version of, um, uh, inkjet printing.
[45:41.000 --> 45:45.210]  Um, and it's, uh, it's like, uh, pretty close to museum quality.
[45:45.420 --> 45:47.770]  So you're going to get prints that are going to last for a long time.
[45:47.980 --> 45:51.480]  And I'm going to go and print them for everyone that calls.
[45:51.480 --> 46:02.060]  So this is sort of like, uh, custom, um, uh, finish job for you, uh, to hang on your wall or do whatever you like with, um, and, uh, there'll be a limited number.
[46:02.160 --> 46:03.060]  We don't, we don't know how many.
[46:03.200 --> 46:06.180]  So, um, please call in and support the station.
[46:06.310 --> 46:12.290]  As I said, uh, this is a time when, well, we remind you that, uh, the station needs support.
[46:12.480 --> 46:24.540]  And, uh, so we can continue to keep the website going and keep the, the transmitter going and, and, uh, good programming like this and, uh, um, people, uh, available to, to create the programming and develop new ideas.
[46:24.710 --> 46:26.580]  And just, just like what we bring to off the hook.
[46:26.790 --> 46:30.960]  So, uh, we can go out and do more projects and, and keep people informed as I said.
[46:31.200 --> 46:33.580]  Well, now you say it's a limited number and we don't know how many.
[46:33.680 --> 46:39.620]  Well, we will know how many at eight o'clock because the amount of people who call in and pledge for this, that's how many we're not making any more.
[46:39.620 --> 46:45.350]  Uh, now these, these prints, uh, yes, you can see them in the 2013 surveillance calendar.
[46:45.680 --> 46:48.660]  Uh, but, uh, these are bigger.
[46:48.900 --> 46:50.290]  They don't have writing on them.
[46:50.420 --> 46:52.040]  Uh, they're, they're suitable for framing.
[46:52.210 --> 46:53.230]  It's, it's not a calendar.
[46:53.440 --> 46:54.100]  It's an actual print.
[46:54.210 --> 46:55.440]  It's the actual original print.
[46:55.710 --> 46:55.980]  Yeah.
[46:56.020 --> 47:00.810]  So that's something that, uh, uh, won't be offered anyplace else at any other time.
[47:01.210 --> 47:08.160]  But until the day when, when Kyle is, is, uh, is a famous photographer who, uh, who has, uh, shows all the time.
[47:08.160 --> 47:10.640]  And maybe this will go for, for several grand.
[47:10.810 --> 47:13.210]  I don't know, but you'll have one of the originals.
[47:13.350 --> 47:15.540]  And, you know, we're not kidding when we say this.
[47:15.810 --> 47:20.540]  Uh, there are so many talented people in the hacker world that, uh, I marvel at.
[47:20.560 --> 47:21.060]  I really do.
[47:21.210 --> 47:23.100]  And, uh, many of them I know personally.
[47:23.290 --> 47:27.580]  So 212-209-2950 is the number to call to take advantage of this.
[47:27.680 --> 47:35.580]  Again, $75, you get, uh, uh, Kyle's prints and the book, or you get, uh, Rob's, uh, painting and the book for 125.
[47:35.580 --> 47:39.350]  You get all of that plus four hacker art DVDs, Rob.
[47:39.580 --> 47:48.020]  And, uh, this is some brilliant stuff because not everyone is, uh, not everyone would consider themselves maybe an art person or, you know, you just want to scatter some stuff around the house that, that looks nice.
[47:48.270 --> 47:54.750]  But, uh, not everybody has all that much access to, um, actual works of art direct from the people who created them.
[47:54.920 --> 48:02.120]  And what we have here are some photographic prints, um, direct from the, uh, from the photographer who, who, uh, who captured that image and who produced them.
[48:02.120 --> 48:09.160]  We have a great book, um, direct directly from the person, uh, who put it together and curated it and, uh, paintings for me, which I'm going to be creating myself.
[48:09.160 --> 48:21.680]  And these are all of us, uh, we, we're all of us are artists who are donating our work to the station, um, to the station's listeners, because we believe in the show and we believe in the station and we want to thank people who support our ability to,
[48:21.830 --> 48:22.700]  uh, to bring this to you.
[48:22.700 --> 48:36.160]  So if you call 212-209-2950, you'll be getting ahold of, uh, you'll be getting ahold of some great things done by, uh, brilliant people plus myself and you will, and, uh, you'll, you'll have this chance that, uh, isn't going to happen again.
[48:36.440 --> 48:37.790]  We've only got about 12 minutes left on this.
[48:37.940 --> 48:38.900]  Two calls on the line.
[48:39.060 --> 48:40.040]  Let's make that five.
[48:40.210 --> 48:41.120]  Let's make that eight.
[48:41.250 --> 48:42.400]  We can easily do that.
[48:42.640 --> 48:43.770]  212-209-2950.
[48:44.520 --> 48:49.080]  When Rob describes the process, keep in mind what it takes to do this.
[48:49.080 --> 48:53.200]  He is going to sit down and, and create a painting just for you.
[48:53.480 --> 48:55.640]  Uh, and that is a real labor of love.
[48:55.770 --> 48:57.350]  A lot of hard work is involved in that.
[48:57.700 --> 49:03.500]  What Kyle had to go through to make those prints is simply staggering, uh, great personal risk.
[49:03.600 --> 49:04.420]  I am not exaggerating.
[49:04.500 --> 49:05.160]  I was there.
[49:05.310 --> 49:11.810]  Uh, we had police on our tail, both in England and in the, uh, in Maryland, uh, at the National Security Agency.
[49:11.980 --> 49:18.290]  In fact, they caught us there and we were delayed for about half an hour with no less than four separate cop cars, uh, questioning us.
[49:18.290 --> 49:19.620]  But we got the pictures.
[49:19.810 --> 49:23.560]  We have the pictures and now you can have them hanging proudly in your home.
[49:23.810 --> 49:28.750]  Uh, very, uh, uh, very easily just by calling 212-209-2950.
[49:28.750 --> 49:33.080]  We have the book, uh, that, uh, that, that's being put together by Andrew.
[49:33.290 --> 49:36.920]  Uh, that is taking an incredible amount of work as well.
[49:37.310 --> 49:50.520]  Um, and, and it's something that you can get by just supporting the radio station, ensuring that these kinds of topics are talked about in the future and, uh, ensuring that the voice is here for so many people that, uh, we have not yet heard from, uh,
[49:50.640 --> 49:51.960]  that I know will benefit from it.
[49:52.120 --> 49:53.660]  212-209-2950.
[49:53.830 --> 49:54.180]  $75.
[49:54.500 --> 49:58.000]  You get your choice of the painting or the, uh, the photographic print plus the book.
[49:58.080 --> 50:00.830]  For $125, you get all of that plus the four DVDs.
[50:00.920 --> 50:02.100]  Now, Bernie, I know you had something to say.
[50:02.100 --> 50:09.000]  Yeah, I just wanted to say that, uh, you know, being at the HOPE number nine conference is one of the, one of the many people that helped put it together.
[50:09.160 --> 50:25.480]  I got a lot of great feedback from, uh, from the thousands of people that came about the, the unique content of all the panel discussions and talks that were there, uh, in particular those that, um, made a good attempt at bridging the communities of, uh,
[50:26.140 --> 50:32.520]  of artists and hackers, which is what we had several talks, several panel discussions at the HOPE conference this year about that.
[50:33.200 --> 50:38.790]  Um, I was just thrilled to see this, the creativity of people being, uh, being exhibited.
[50:38.980 --> 50:41.100]  We also had, uh, some art exhibits at the HOPE conference.
[50:41.420 --> 50:45.900]  Um, but these panels really discussed the, uh, the bridging of these communities.
[50:46.310 --> 50:54.270]  Um, and I think these premiums we're offering, uh, through WBA tonight, would be great for our non-technical listener audience.
[50:54.440 --> 51:00.750]  I know there's a lot of geeks that listen to the show, but there are a lot of non-technical people that, that like to get stuff from the show too, um, from a content standpoint.
[51:00.940 --> 51:13.960]  But here's some premiums that would, uh, it'd make, uh, really creative holiday gifts, or just, if you're just really a creative person and want something that's not technical in your house, a beautiful, like, coffee table art book by Andrew Cameron Zahn,
[51:14.440 --> 51:20.960]  uh, uh, a hand, uh, two, two, uh, hand-created, uh, painting by Rob T.
[51:21.060 --> 51:22.460]  Firefly, two photographic prints.
[51:22.770 --> 51:26.140]  We have, we have a variety of things, but just call 212-209-2950.
[51:27.210 --> 51:28.100]  There's two packages.
[51:28.520 --> 51:31.250]  Both of them include the four DVDs from the Hope Conference.
[51:31.440 --> 51:34.380]  And this is a very, uh, this is a unique package.
[51:34.540 --> 51:39.080]  We've never put anything together like this with so many different pieces of art in one pledge drive.
[51:39.200 --> 51:40.810]  212-209-2950.
[51:40.960 --> 51:42.700]  Actually, let me just, uh, correct you on one thing.
[51:42.700 --> 51:46.920]  The only the, uh, the $125 package includes the four DVDs.
[51:47.060 --> 51:49.440]  And, uh, Rob, I believe it's, it's one painting, right?
[51:49.710 --> 51:50.080]  Yes, indeed.
[51:50.180 --> 51:50.620]  That you're making.
[51:50.830 --> 51:53.940]  And, uh, there's two photographs, uh, that Kyle is providing.
[51:54.210 --> 51:58.440]  Uh, but there, there are so many, uh, amazing bits of, of artwork here.
[51:58.440 --> 52:04.940]  You will kick yourself if you do not take advantage of this and the years go by and you see just how, how amazing these are and how historical they are.
[52:05.200 --> 52:09.460]  Uh, and we're only offering it, uh, this week, tonight, uh, not past eight o'clock.
[52:09.460 --> 52:12.440]  212-209-2950.
[52:12.440 --> 52:32.180]  Again, your choice of the hacker painting, the, uh, the NSA and, uh, men with Hill, uh, photographic prints, uh, 13 by 19, uh, the, uh, that, the hack, um, art book and, um, uh, the DVDs, uh, your choice for $75 or everything for $125, 212-209-2950.
[52:32.180 --> 52:35.710]  Let's have, uh, a last minute flurry of people calling in.
[52:35.980 --> 52:37.440]  Let's keep this place going.
[52:37.440 --> 52:47.750]  Let's, uh, let's show our appreciation for, for not just the technical part of the hacker world, but the artistic part, because that is every bit as important as something that is inspirational and, and, and drives us all.
[52:47.830 --> 52:56.980]  Having, having these things adorning your walls or, or on your coffee table, uh, will inspire you in, in, in future years to do something more amazing.
[52:57.140 --> 53:02.270]  And just to answer the question that we do still get every week, we can only do this now while we're broadcasting live.
[53:02.270 --> 53:07.540]  If you're listening to us on a podcast or an MP3 or anything like that, unfortunately you've missed your chance.
[53:07.710 --> 53:10.060]  We've only got seven more minutes that we're doing this.
[53:10.270 --> 53:13.750]  Um, if you'd like to support us any other time, go to wbai.org.
[53:13.920 --> 53:15.120]  You can, uh, support us online.
[53:15.250 --> 53:17.850]  We can't give you our premiums, but, uh, there's some other cool stuff.
[53:18.020 --> 53:19.120]  There are other premiums you can get then.
[53:19.230 --> 53:30.060]  And the reason we do that is because, well, imagine, uh, uh, Rob and, and, and, uh, Andrew and, uh, and, and Kyle would have to be working around the clock to produce all of this because people will be calling in 24 hours a day.
[53:30.180 --> 53:31.850]  That's how, that's how popular it would get.
[53:31.850 --> 53:33.710]  And we've seen that happen in the past.
[53:34.100 --> 53:36.730]  So that's what we can only offer it while we're on the air.
[53:36.880 --> 53:38.900]  2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0.
[53:39.060 --> 53:52.790]  I mean, frankly, if you are listening live, it's, if it's a 7 53 for you on the 24th of October, uh, or, or the appropriate offset, if you're in a different time zone, you should call and pledge and like resell your premiums to someone who isn't listening live because they're going to want these things.
[53:52.920 --> 53:53.400]  Is that legal?
[53:53.850 --> 53:54.310]  Isn't it?
[53:54.310 --> 53:55.380]  I guess, I guess it's all right.
[53:55.460 --> 53:56.160]  Yeah, that's fine.
[53:56.440 --> 53:56.580]  Okay.
[53:56.660 --> 53:59.080]  So we have two calls on the line, uh, two more calls, which is good.
[53:59.500 --> 54:03.100]  Can we get two more before the hour or no, you know what?
[54:03.180 --> 54:03.560]  Three more.
[54:03.700 --> 54:04.770]  We can get three more, right, Bernie?
[54:05.420 --> 54:05.730]  Absolutely.
[54:06.000 --> 54:06.210]  All right.
[54:06.440 --> 54:09.000]  Let's get three more 2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0.
[54:09.120 --> 54:09.290]  Come on.
[54:09.350 --> 54:10.350]  This is a, this is important.
[54:10.920 --> 54:23.440]  Let's, let's show our support, not only for the radio station, but for the hard work of Andrew and, and, and Rob and Kyle for, uh, just putting it all together and, and expressing themselves and, uh, just opening their hearts up to the world.
[54:23.890 --> 54:25.580]  And, uh, that's what it's all about.
[54:25.710 --> 54:25.900]  Isn't it?
[54:26.100 --> 54:27.620]  2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0.
[54:28.210 --> 54:28.540]  Emmanuel.
[54:28.790 --> 54:28.960]  Yes.
[54:29.120 --> 54:37.600]  I just wanted to point out, I've been looking at some of the photos that, uh, there's one call that some of the photos that, uh, Andrew took for this, uh, for this, uh, hack art book.
[54:37.750 --> 54:39.440]  Uh, they're on his, uh, website.
[54:40.060 --> 54:40.770]  There's two calls.
[54:40.770 --> 54:42.460]  A C Zahn dot com.
[54:42.620 --> 54:44.500]  That's A C Z A H N dot com.
[54:44.710 --> 54:45.210]  There's three calls.
[54:45.500 --> 54:46.810]  There's a lot of the, a lot of the photos that are in this book.
[54:46.900 --> 54:48.020]  This is really an amazing book.
[54:48.400 --> 54:49.230]  Uh, four calls.
[54:49.580 --> 54:55.850]  This is, this is going to be what, like 60, a hundred pages of, uh, color and, and, and black and white prints in this book.
[54:57.790 --> 54:58.140]  Yeah.
[54:59.040 --> 54:59.380]  Approximately.
[54:59.680 --> 55:00.850]  It's not really clear at this point.
[55:00.960 --> 55:01.230]  Right, right.
[55:01.330 --> 55:04.160]  So dozens, dozens of pages, uh, many of them color.
[55:04.770 --> 55:05.380]  Many of them color.
[55:05.380 --> 55:08.700]  Uh, it's eight and a half by 11 book, uh, hard, hard, perfect bound.
[55:08.900 --> 55:12.500]  Um, this is a quality book and you're, you're self publishing this book yourself.
[55:12.660 --> 55:12.960]  Is that right?
[55:13.380 --> 55:13.620]  Yes.
[55:13.620 --> 55:14.440]  I'm self publishing.
[55:14.750 --> 55:20.900]  It's, uh, it's going to be a high, high gloss, um, paper, uh, the best quality paper you can get.
[55:21.120 --> 55:23.980]  And, uh, the, the full color printing is beautiful.
[55:24.960 --> 55:26.770]  And, uh, yeah, self publish.
[55:26.980 --> 55:34.100]  So it is still being, being put together if that has not become obvious, but, uh, you expect it to be finished within what, another month or so?
[55:34.790 --> 55:35.660]  Uh, yeah.
[55:36.460 --> 55:36.810]  Yeah.
[55:37.080 --> 55:38.850]  I probably, at least by the end of the year.
[55:38.940 --> 55:40.980]  So 212-209-2950.
[55:41.290 --> 55:44.330]  We have four calls on the line and I want to thank those people for calling in.
[55:44.580 --> 55:46.350]  Here's a fifth call coming in right now.
[55:46.770 --> 55:49.440]  Let's, uh, let's really give the people down the hall run for the money.
[55:49.680 --> 55:51.830]  Literally 212-209-2950.
[55:52.730 --> 55:56.230]  And just to drive that point home, it's a self published book by the person who put it together.
[55:56.420 --> 56:01.520]  Um, you know, self produced photos from the photographer and self produced paintings from myself, the painter.
[56:01.660 --> 56:03.270]  This is not stuff that you're going to find everywhere.
[56:03.270 --> 56:05.600]  This is not stuff that you're going to find altogether again, ever.
[56:05.850 --> 56:09.830]  This is not stuff that you're going to see on the rack at Kmart next to the poster of dogs playing poker.
[56:10.040 --> 56:14.500]  This, these are, these are all very unique things that, uh, this is your pretty much your only chance to get hold of.
[56:14.560 --> 56:26.060]  Now, I'd like to ask our three artists before we sign off tonight, uh, just to say a couple of words to those people listening who fancy themselves as artists too, but haven't quite found their way of expressing themselves.
[56:26.060 --> 56:34.310]  Any, any words of inspiration or advice that you can give towards, uh, maybe participating in the hacker world somehow, right?
[56:34.920 --> 56:35.460]  Yes, indeed.
[56:35.600 --> 56:37.580]  There's, there is so much inspiration in the hacker world.
[56:37.790 --> 56:42.680]  Um, for myself, uh, my, my hacker side and my artist side are very often the very same side.
[56:42.810 --> 56:49.180]  And there is just so much crossover, especially at an event like hope where you could go and see all this great hacker stuff and all this great art stuff in one place.
[56:49.180 --> 56:51.480]  And there is just such a crossover between the worlds.
[56:52.160 --> 56:52.600]  Andrew?
[56:54.100 --> 56:54.540]  Yes.
[56:55.200 --> 56:59.290]  Uh, any, any words of inspiration to future artists, uh, or who happen to be hackers as well?
[57:00.500 --> 57:11.210]  Well, I would say, um, the word that comes to mind is, is, you know, just really push yourself and, uh, experiment and don't get frustrated by the technology.
[57:11.460 --> 57:17.250]  You know, really use the technology as, as a tool and not necessarily as an end to a means.
[57:18.020 --> 57:26.160]  Um, and, and really, you know, um, really experimenting is, is the key, um, here.
[57:26.420 --> 57:37.830]  And really looking at, you know, uh, Catherine likes to say on really staying on the bleeding edge of technology, um, is, is very important for new media work.
[57:38.400 --> 57:47.520]  Um, but also, you know, traditional or old school, you know, analog techniques are, uh, I find really interesting and I work with a lot too.
[57:48.290 --> 57:56.480]  Um, to also look back to the past, you know, uh, 60s and 70s technology, um, you know, analog circuits.
[57:57.380 --> 57:57.620]  Okay.
[57:57.790 --> 57:58.770]  I would say...
[57:58.770 --> 57:59.020]  Go ahead.
[57:59.020 --> 58:00.020]  Yeah, really.
[58:00.210 --> 58:08.600]  I mean, uh, you know, and this is, you know, kind of, uh, you know, Mitch, Mitch Altman just kind of pushes, you know, really learn soldering.
[58:10.620 --> 58:11.000]  Absolutely.
[58:11.640 --> 58:13.880]  Well, I just want to give Kyle the last, uh, word on this.
[58:13.920 --> 58:16.810]  Uh, if you have any words of inspiration to future, uh, hackers slash artists.
[58:17.600 --> 58:17.790]  Yeah.
[58:18.040 --> 58:21.500]  Um, be open to making mistakes and then go back and fix them.
[58:22.080 --> 58:25.500]  Um, don't ever forget that you're an artist because that happens.
[58:25.500 --> 58:26.580]  You get busy in life.
[58:26.810 --> 58:28.060]  You're, you're doing school or whatever.
[58:28.200 --> 58:29.270]  Don't forget that you're an artist.
[58:29.420 --> 58:30.230]  Make time for yourself.
[58:30.400 --> 58:34.790]  Make, make force yourself to relax a little bit and use that creative part of your brain.
[58:34.940 --> 58:42.600]  And then also, um, look at your support network, just like with like hacker spaces and hacker groups, find places where artists like you hang out.
[58:42.750 --> 58:51.040]  Um, I will shout out a little bit right now to, uh, the photographic center Northwest, which is a photo school in Seattle.
[58:51.040 --> 58:56.770]  And, and that's, that's where I do a lot of, uh, of my work, uh, finishing printing, developing stuff like that.
[58:56.920 --> 59:12.250]  But being around people, being able to teach and learn, um, and, uh, be in a community of, of other people, you, you find that, that kindred spirit similar to like what you might see at a hacker event, like hope, uh, where you guys speak the same language.
[59:12.250 --> 59:18.160]  You know, you're talking about films, you're talking about, you know, anecdotally what's happening to Polaroid or this or that, the other thing.
[59:18.160 --> 59:24.980]  There's all that kind of interesting stuff that you can learn so much by being in an environment where artists like you are likely to hang out.
[59:25.270 --> 59:26.350]  Okay, Kyle, thank you so much.
[59:26.420 --> 59:31.960]  And thank you to Rob and thank you to Andrew for, uh, all your, um, amazing work and inspiration and all that.
[59:32.040 --> 59:37.790]  And again, one more time, 212-209-2950 is the number to call to support and get some of this amazing artwork.
[59:38.160 --> 59:39.960]  We'll see you next week for another edition of Off the Hook.
[59:40.080 --> 59:41.770]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[59:41.880 --> 59:42.960]  Stay tuned for the personal computer show.
[59:43.060 --> 59:43.210]  Good night.
[01:00:23.680 --> 01:00:26.660]  You are tuned to WBAI in New York.
[01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:27.960]  The preceding program.
[01:00:28.200 --> 01:00:31.940]  We're going to support you live with portions on recording.
[01:00:32.180 --> 01:00:34.640]  We hear next, the personal computer show.
[01:00:35.500 --> 01:00:35.620]  Music.
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