[00:01.470 --> 00:05.130]  Hi, this is Julian Joyello, and I'm a listener and supporter of WBAI.
[00:05.370 --> 00:08.410]  I'm 20 years old, and I'm a student at NYU, and I live in New York City.
[00:08.570 --> 00:11.430]  And I want to shout out to the other young listeners of WBAI.
[00:11.650 --> 00:16.790]  We have to help keep this station going, and the easiest way to do it is through the WBAI buddy system.
[00:17.250 --> 00:22.050]  If you donate as little as $10 a month, you have proactively promoted free speech radio.
[00:22.430 --> 00:27.130]  Go to the website WBAI.org, click the donate button, and make a difference.
[00:33.180 --> 00:39.060]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York, where the time is exactly 7 o'clock.
[00:39.400 --> 00:41.620]  And that means it's time for Off the Hook.
[02:11.100 --> 02:12.280]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:12.420 --> 02:13.340]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:13.440 --> 02:15.680]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:15.840 --> 02:17.140]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:17.400 --> 02:17.920]  Good evening.
[02:18.200 --> 02:18.700]  Rob T.
[02:18.920 --> 02:19.360]  Firefly.
[02:19.560 --> 02:19.940]  Good evening.
[02:20.820 --> 02:21.700]  Bernie S.
[02:21.960 --> 02:24.100]  down in Philadelphia via Skype.
[02:24.760 --> 02:26.200]  Yes, greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:26.440 --> 02:27.580]  Wow, you sound better than we do.
[02:27.960 --> 02:28.380]  Amazing.
[02:28.700 --> 02:29.640]  I don't know about that.
[02:29.640 --> 02:31.800]  At some point, I'm going to stop marveling over it.
[02:31.880 --> 02:34.040]  But yes, it really is.
[02:34.140 --> 02:35.460]  We're entering the 20th century, finally.
[02:35.680 --> 02:39.020]  And there he is in Philadelphia, but yet sounding as if he's in the studio.
[02:39.220 --> 02:41.560]  We have a couple of special guests with us tonight.
[02:42.120 --> 02:47.240]  We have Bicycle Mark over from... You know, I never know where to say you're over from because you're so many different places.
[02:47.240 --> 02:49.160]  You're based in the Netherlands.
[02:49.480 --> 02:49.960]  That is correct.
[02:50.060 --> 02:50.420]  Good evening.
[02:50.780 --> 02:54.360]  But you've been... Well, we're going to get into this because you've been all kinds of places.
[02:54.620 --> 02:56.280]  But for now, you came over from Jersey.
[02:56.800 --> 02:57.200]  That is correct.
[02:57.200 --> 02:57.540]  All right.
[02:57.660 --> 02:59.520]  But it's going to get more exciting than that.
[02:59.640 --> 03:02.640]  And also, a special guest visiting us from Brazil, Chico.
[03:03.280 --> 03:03.580]  Hello.
[03:03.880 --> 03:04.320]  You're a listener.
[03:04.660 --> 03:05.700]  Yes, yes, I'm a listener.
[03:06.180 --> 03:09.280]  But tonight, you're actually going to speak as well as listen.
[03:09.620 --> 03:10.660]  So how does that feel?
[03:11.320 --> 03:12.040]  Oh, it's great.
[03:12.080 --> 03:13.020]  It's great to be here.
[03:13.120 --> 03:14.120]  You have to move closer to the microphone.
[03:14.300 --> 03:16.200]  These are the things that we have to tell listeners.
[03:16.540 --> 03:16.900]  Yes.
[03:18.160 --> 03:19.580]  What do you think of BAI?
[03:20.400 --> 03:21.780]  I think it's awesome.
[03:22.080 --> 03:26.140]  It's really cool to see the place after so many years of listening.
[03:26.140 --> 03:26.900]  Uh-huh.
[03:27.280 --> 03:28.740]  Well, we're glad to have you here.
[03:28.880 --> 03:32.120]  And we have listeners all over the world, obviously.
[03:32.600 --> 03:34.260]  This is your second time in New York City.
[03:35.100 --> 03:41.540]  And it's an honor that you see fit to visit us as part of your trip here.
[03:43.000 --> 03:44.840]  Are there many people in Brazil that listen to the show?
[03:46.640 --> 03:50.340]  Well, unfortunately, I think I'm the only one I know of.
[03:50.600 --> 03:52.800]  No, I know you're not because we get mail from Brazil.
[03:53.180 --> 03:55.900]  For instance, would somebody please insult Brazil somehow?
[03:56.680 --> 03:58.360]  And we'll get letters and you'll see.
[03:58.600 --> 04:00.940]  I think Bicycle Mark could insult Brazil.
[04:01.120 --> 04:06.080]  In Portuguese, there's got to be all kinds of excellent opportunities to do that.
[04:06.180 --> 04:08.280]  Yeah, but he speaks Portuguese Portuguese, not Brazilian Portuguese.
[04:08.280 --> 04:10.000]  I'm sure they'll be all the more offended.
[04:10.000 --> 04:11.100]  The insults are different.
[04:11.260 --> 04:12.240]  Yeah, the insults are different.
[04:12.240 --> 04:15.840]  Plus, I don't think the people in Brazil are capable of understanding the Portuguese.
[04:16.500 --> 04:17.800]  Oh, there's the insults.
[04:17.800 --> 04:18.780]  I'm trying to get the letters.
[04:18.920 --> 04:19.280]  That's all.
[04:19.420 --> 04:20.980]  OTH at 2600.com.
[04:21.020 --> 04:24.540]  He'll probably say something very nice about Brazil and they'll take it as an insult.
[04:24.800 --> 04:26.200]  Can you say something in Portuguese, though?
[04:26.280 --> 04:29.740]  That's clean because the FCC even checks in different languages.
[04:30.040 --> 04:31.880]  Yes, I can say, Boa noite, Brasil.
[04:32.080 --> 04:32.900]  E bem-vindo ao programa.
[04:33.700 --> 04:34.040]  Okay.
[04:34.260 --> 04:37.900]  And that means that Brazil will have both the Olympics and the World Cup coming up in a few years.
[04:38.080 --> 04:39.120]  They get everything they want now.
[04:39.120 --> 04:39.820]  That's not fair.
[04:40.200 --> 04:41.040]  That's not fair.
[04:41.680 --> 04:42.180]  All right.
[04:42.240 --> 04:46.260]  So we have all kinds of people here this week and all sorts of stories to tell.
[04:46.380 --> 04:58.260]  We have a brand new phone number because, well, things are still so incredibly fouled up down here in lower Manhattan that Verizon says the phones aren't going to be ready for a very long time.
[04:58.460 --> 05:02.260]  And there are going to be a lot more changes coming down the pike as well.
[05:02.420 --> 05:07.440]  So it's going to be interesting next few weeks here at the radio station and at the show.
[05:07.440 --> 05:08.760]  So stay tuned.
[05:08.940 --> 05:10.660]  I think you'll find it very entertaining.
[05:10.960 --> 05:14.460]  But for those of you who want to call in later, let me give you the phone-in number.
[05:14.580 --> 05:15.640]  It's a brand new phone number.
[05:16.740 --> 05:17.060]  917.
[05:17.220 --> 05:17.900]  Yes, that's right.
[05:18.240 --> 05:19.580]  I don't think you're calling a cell phone.
[05:19.700 --> 05:21.480]  It used to be 917 was only for cell phones.
[05:25.440 --> 05:27.240]  917-580-6020.
[05:27.560 --> 05:29.040]  That is our phone number.
[05:29.340 --> 05:31.120]  And I believe we can take multiple calls on that.
[05:31.240 --> 05:33.360]  So that's going to be a lot of fun.
[05:33.980 --> 05:34.340]  All right.
[05:34.420 --> 05:37.800]  I want to start tonight with this whole Instagram mess.
[05:37.980 --> 05:40.380]  Now, everyone's been talking about this.
[05:40.460 --> 05:43.020]  People stopping me on the street, wanting to know what it means for them.
[05:43.980 --> 05:45.120]  No, really, it happens.
[05:46.000 --> 05:49.660]  And I have to say, first of all, if you put your pictures...
[05:49.660 --> 05:53.300]  And we're going to get into exactly what Instagram is in a moment for people who have no idea what we're talking about.
[05:53.340 --> 06:04.640]  But if you put your pictures on some company's website that purports to be a social networking site, you can't be surprised when they abuse it one way or another, right?
[06:04.680 --> 06:05.760]  Can we all agree on that?
[06:06.180 --> 06:06.580]  Yes.
[06:06.780 --> 06:08.980]  I'm not sure that it's so obvious.
[06:08.980 --> 06:13.280]  I think it's pretty obvious because, you know, you're not paying them anything.
[06:13.640 --> 06:18.320]  So some companies you do pay and some companies do make promises to their users.
[06:18.460 --> 06:20.820]  Instagram fits into neither of those categories.
[06:20.960 --> 06:22.980]  So I think in Instagram's case, you can't be surprised.
[06:23.140 --> 06:25.280]  But there are companies that would surprise me.
[06:25.540 --> 06:25.880]  Okay.
[06:26.080 --> 06:32.260]  Well, there are nice companies, but then nice companies either turn evil or get bought out by companies that are evil and then turn them evil.
[06:32.280 --> 06:33.360]  It happens all the time.
[06:33.360 --> 06:40.820]  The only way to maintain control over your content is to have your content on your site or under your control somehow.
[06:41.400 --> 06:44.880]  And that's really a lesson I think we learn over and over again.
[06:45.120 --> 06:45.240]  Okay.
[06:45.300 --> 06:51.240]  But now for the people who have no idea what Instagram is, who would like to explain it, how it relates to, what is it, Facebook?
[06:52.480 --> 07:04.400]  Instagram started out as a service that would let you easily upload photos that you take with your mobile device to the web and post it to your social networking profiles at Facebook, Twitter, what have you.
[07:04.460 --> 07:05.540]  Isn't that what TwitPic does?
[07:05.760 --> 07:07.260]  I can't believe I just said that on the air.
[07:07.560 --> 07:07.940]  TwitPic.
[07:08.080 --> 07:08.900]  That's what it's called, right?
[07:09.220 --> 07:12.940]  Instagram makes you make your photo be a square.
[07:13.180 --> 07:13.440]  Yes.
[07:13.440 --> 07:15.440]  And they let you put funny effects on it.
[07:15.800 --> 07:16.180]  They...
[07:16.180 --> 07:17.240]  And this is very popular.
[07:17.420 --> 07:17.580]  Wow.
[07:17.660 --> 07:18.740]  They figured out how to do that, huh?
[07:18.920 --> 07:19.980]  They make your photos...
[07:19.980 --> 07:28.280]  They make your clear digital photos from a top-of-the-line digital device look like they were taken with a washed-out 35, 110 camera.
[07:28.280 --> 07:29.740]  This is your mistake.
[07:30.020 --> 07:33.480]  What they do is they make your iPhone photo...
[07:33.480 --> 07:36.100]  They were originally only on iPhone, which is a terrible camera.
[07:36.340 --> 07:41.220]  And they make it look like differently bad so that you can't tell it's an iPhone photo.
[07:41.220 --> 07:43.660]  It just looks like you messed it up on purpose.
[07:43.840 --> 07:44.620]  That is what they do.
[07:44.720 --> 07:47.720]  Now we're going to get email from iPhone users because you just insulted them.
[07:48.760 --> 07:48.940]  Okay.
[07:49.120 --> 07:50.620]  You want to insult Brazilian iPhone users?
[07:50.760 --> 07:51.400]  Like make it complete?
[07:51.540 --> 07:52.100]  Are there a lot?
[07:52.320 --> 07:53.060]  I'll find out.
[07:53.060 --> 07:54.980]  Chico, are there a lot of iPhone users in Brazil?
[07:55.240 --> 07:55.960]  Yes, many.
[07:56.240 --> 07:57.180]  I'm not one of them.
[07:57.180 --> 07:59.880]  What kind of phone do you use, if we may be so bold as to ask?
[07:59.980 --> 08:02.120]  I use an Android from Sony.
[08:02.500 --> 08:03.400]  Do we approve of that?
[08:03.960 --> 08:04.400]  All right.
[08:04.460 --> 08:05.500]  I approve of the Android part.
[08:05.500 --> 08:06.140]  We'll let it go for now.
[08:06.240 --> 08:06.460]  All right.
[08:06.960 --> 08:09.920]  So continue with the Instagram explanation.
[08:10.920 --> 08:16.260]  So Instagram, which would let you put greasy-looking filters on your photos and crop them to a square...
[08:16.260 --> 08:17.700]  That's not what they say.
[08:17.920 --> 08:18.720]  They probably...
[08:18.720 --> 08:20.160]  I think that's the actual tagline they use.
[08:20.220 --> 08:21.460]  ...present it a little differently than that.
[08:21.460 --> 08:27.100]  But they were so successful at what they do that they were bought by Facebook for rather a lot of money.
[08:27.220 --> 08:28.320]  Like a billion dollars, right?
[08:28.320 --> 08:28.920]  A billion dollars.
[08:29.140 --> 08:31.660]  How do you even buy anything for a billion dollars?
[08:32.000 --> 08:36.600]  Well, part of it is Facebook stock, which is now worth less than it was at the time of the purchase.
[08:36.740 --> 08:38.720]  But some of it was cash.
[08:38.900 --> 08:40.360]  Facebook has a lot of cash for some reason.
[08:40.360 --> 08:42.140]  I mean, for a billion dollars, you could go to the moon.
[08:42.260 --> 08:43.740]  You could have an NBA player for a year.
[08:43.880 --> 08:48.140]  You can do all kinds of really important things, you know?
[08:49.380 --> 08:55.360]  Somewhat important detail to Instagram, for those who are into it or were, is that there's also the community aspect.
[08:55.360 --> 08:57.660]  So you post your photo, but you also have your timeline.
[08:57.880 --> 08:58.800]  I know this sounds familiar.
[08:59.020 --> 09:01.080]  You have a timeline where you see everybody's photos.
[09:01.220 --> 09:04.580]  So you can have your community and you can follow each other.
[09:04.660 --> 09:06.560]  And that's also a big use of it.
[09:06.600 --> 09:07.840]  They can't hear your air quotes.
[09:10.880 --> 09:11.320]  Community.
[09:11.860 --> 09:14.740]  Yes, I'm an Instagram user to a certain extent.
[09:15.180 --> 09:17.540]  Not, you know, one every few days, maybe.
[09:18.120 --> 09:18.560]  Okay.
[09:18.720 --> 09:19.520]  Well, how do you use it?
[09:19.620 --> 09:21.560]  Maybe people would benefit from hearing that.
[09:21.740 --> 09:32.360]  Oh, it's simply, you take a photo with your phone and you can take it either with the application or you can take it outside of the application and turn on the application and pull the photo in.
[09:32.580 --> 09:34.960]  And you can edit it as you wish.
[09:35.060 --> 09:36.860]  There's a few filters, the greasy filter.
[09:37.640 --> 09:39.200]  I think that's not the official name.
[09:39.200 --> 09:45.160]  And then you can geolocate yourself because, you know, some people want to be found and to show where they are.
[09:45.260 --> 09:48.220]  And some people, like in Central America, don't want to be found.
[09:48.440 --> 09:49.520]  And they were found.
[09:49.700 --> 09:51.060]  Anybody want to go into this?
[09:52.440 --> 09:53.880]  Mr. McAfee, I believe.
[09:54.160 --> 09:55.260]  You might have heard of him.
[09:55.640 --> 09:56.980]  That wasn't an Instagram, though.
[09:57.260 --> 10:02.680]  Well, it wasn't Instagram, but it was GPS that led to him being apprehended.
[10:02.860 --> 10:04.400]  Have we talked about McAfee on this show at all?
[10:04.400 --> 10:05.920]  Let's make it very brief.
[10:06.120 --> 10:12.740]  But this is the guy who started the antivirus software conglomerate, no longer a part of it, I believe.
[10:13.020 --> 10:13.240]  Right.
[10:13.480 --> 10:31.100]  He was somewhat, I don't want to say implicated, but a person that they were very curious to talk to down there about the murder of somebody, a neighbor of his who he had all kinds of altercations with, and he was in hiding until he wound up being interviewed by...
[10:31.100 --> 10:31.840]  Does anybody know who it was?
[10:31.860 --> 10:34.760]  Yeah, Vice Magazine was following him around in hiding, which is...
[10:34.760 --> 10:35.440]  The folks at Vice.
[10:35.660 --> 10:36.020]  Oh, they're great.
[10:36.020 --> 10:38.080]  They gave him a blog, I think, to post to.
[10:38.300 --> 10:39.720]  They do great travel logs.
[10:39.940 --> 10:40.560]  Okay, but...
[10:40.560 --> 10:41.060]  Someone else...
[10:41.060 --> 10:42.980]  No, someone else made the blog via...
[10:42.980 --> 10:47.420]  I mean, if you're hiding, I don't know why you invite journalists to follow you around anyway, but I'm not him.
[10:47.640 --> 10:51.260]  They didn't strip the GPS information from the photographs they took.
[10:51.260 --> 10:55.920]  And somebody was able to figure out exactly where he was based on what was put on the internet.
[10:56.240 --> 11:02.520]  And by exactly where he was, they were able to find out, like, which swimming pool in the resort complex he was at.
[11:02.740 --> 11:05.080]  Right, so they could have aimed a drone at him any time.
[11:05.300 --> 11:06.980]  So it's something to beware of.
[11:07.120 --> 11:08.560]  But okay, so that's...
[11:08.560 --> 11:09.600]  Let's go back to Instagram.
[11:09.760 --> 11:20.940]  After you've put the geolocation and you're getting found in Central America, there's a few other little things you can do before posting the photo to your Instagram, and then you can choose to have it automatically go to Facebook, to Twitter.
[11:21.260 --> 11:23.580]  To Tumblr, to email.
[11:24.080 --> 11:26.020]  And so it's sort of all in one.
[11:26.160 --> 11:31.720]  One photo going to many places, which, you know, for those of us who are trying to save time, can sometimes be very useful.
[11:32.280 --> 11:34.260]  Okay, so what happened...
[11:34.260 --> 11:35.280]  Was it yesterday?
[11:35.460 --> 11:35.940]  The day before?
[11:36.180 --> 11:37.520]  I think it was Monday this happened.
[11:37.640 --> 11:43.680]  Instagram put out new terms of service that basically said all kinds of things.
[11:43.740 --> 11:47.720]  They said that your pictures could wind up in advertisements without your knowledge.
[11:48.980 --> 11:51.440]  That the ads might not even be labeled as ads.
[11:51.560 --> 11:52.940]  You won't get a penny out of it.
[11:53.040 --> 11:57.540]  You have no control to keep your pictures from being used in this way.
[11:57.720 --> 12:00.320]  And the only way to opt out basically is to delete your account.
[12:00.440 --> 12:02.840]  Doesn't sound very friendly when phrased this way.
[12:03.440 --> 12:05.960]  But am I phrasing it approximately right?
[12:06.140 --> 12:06.960]  Yeah, pretty much.
[12:07.040 --> 12:08.520]  That was the concern that people had.
[12:08.620 --> 12:11.140]  When they changed the terms of service, people poured over them.
[12:11.140 --> 12:13.540]  And this is what they came away with it.
[12:13.820 --> 12:34.940]  And so basically, Instagram would own the rights to use your photos for whatever they pleased, including using them in ads, which is troublesome when you consider things like personality rights, which exist in this country, which basically say that your image can't be used to promote something if you don't approve of it,
[12:35.040 --> 12:40.340]  unless you've done certain things like sign your photo over to a stock photo agency or model photographer or what have you.
[12:40.480 --> 12:50.100]  But so the long and the short of it is that it was opening up every photo posted to Instagram to be used in things like ads or be sold to themselves.
[12:50.340 --> 12:54.340]  Now, my question is, when you post something to Instagram, can you control who sees it?
[12:54.540 --> 12:56.240]  Only your friends, everybody in the world?
[12:56.400 --> 12:57.640]  Do you have some kind of control over that?
[12:57.880 --> 12:59.100]  Ostensibly, you can.
[12:59.280 --> 13:04.100]  You can post photos like to friends only or to things like that.
[13:04.240 --> 13:05.600]  But the attitude that I...
[13:05.600 --> 13:06.880]  Is Instagram always your friend?
[13:07.000 --> 13:08.820]  Can you exclude Instagram themselves?
[13:09.120 --> 13:10.180]  Or do they see everything?
[13:10.740 --> 13:12.380]  Instagram is everyone's friend, I think.
[13:12.560 --> 13:23.920]  But the thing about the whole friends only thing on any sort of social networking service, you know, going back to LiveJournal and things back in the day, is that if one person besides you can see it, it's basically on the internet.
[13:24.320 --> 13:29.900]  You know, the long and the short of it is that somebody out there can see it, somebody can copy it, somebody can repost it, do whatever with it.
[13:30.040 --> 13:36.460]  So, you know, posting things to quote unquote closed groups on the entire internet is never a functional thing.
[13:37.040 --> 13:42.320]  If Instagram can claim that they can use whatever photos they find, why can't I make the same claim?
[13:42.380 --> 13:47.720]  Why can't I go out and say, it's on Instagram, it's on Facebook, I'm going to use this picture for advertising something of mine.
[13:47.840 --> 13:53.620]  Because nobody has clicked an OK button on your terms of service when they joined up with Instagram, but they did click the OK button on Instagram.
[13:53.620 --> 13:57.160]  But didn't they change what's behind the OK button just yesterday?
[13:57.160 --> 14:03.760]  Yeah, so one of the terms, all these services have this great term in their terms, which says we can change the terms at any time, but you can't.
[14:03.920 --> 14:04.760]  They all have that clause.
[14:04.760 --> 14:09.240]  So I just have to get somebody to click something that says that, and I can do whatever I want with their images.
[14:09.520 --> 14:09.760]  All right.
[14:09.940 --> 14:11.860]  But this all changed now, as of today.
[14:12.080 --> 14:13.760]  Well, I don't know about all, but some.
[14:13.760 --> 14:14.640]  Okay, well, some of it changed.
[14:14.780 --> 14:18.260]  Instagram put out a statement that is headlined, thank you, and we're listening.
[14:18.880 --> 14:23.560]  Yesterday, we introduced a new version of our privacy policy in terms of service that will take effect in 30 days.
[14:23.800 --> 14:31.420]  These two documents help communicate as clearly as possible our relationship with the users of Instagram so you understand how our data will be used and the rules that govern blah, blah, blah.
[14:31.820 --> 14:39.940]  Okay, since making these changes, we've heard loud and clear that many users are confused and upset about what the changes mean.
[14:40.320 --> 14:41.680]  I am writing this today.
[14:42.000 --> 14:44.780]  I assume this is a person of importance at Instagram.
[14:44.980 --> 14:52.100]  I'm writing this today to let you know we're listening and to commit to you that we will be doing more to answer your questions, fix any mistakes, and eliminate the confusion.
[14:52.600 --> 15:01.920]  As we review your feedback and stories in the press, your stories in the press, that's good, we're going to modify specific parts of the terms to make it more clear what will happen with your photos.
[15:01.980 --> 15:03.640]  I'm not hearing they're going to change anything.
[15:03.640 --> 15:08.880]  I'm hearing they're just going to try and explain it better for us dense heads out there that don't get it the first time.
[15:09.200 --> 15:12.660]  Are they actually changing the policies that they put into place?
[15:12.800 --> 15:15.020]  It looks like they're changing the ones that people were complaining about.
[15:15.140 --> 15:23.660]  But what really gets me about this whole non-apology of theirs is that they seem to try, they seem to be trying to put out the narrative that, oh, this is just something unclear.
[15:23.660 --> 15:26.500]  We never intended to do all this dark stuff with your things.
[15:27.300 --> 15:29.040]  But Instagram is owned by Facebook.
[15:29.260 --> 15:30.660]  It's one of the biggest companies on the web.
[15:30.800 --> 15:33.300]  They have fleets and fleets of lawyers.
[15:33.540 --> 15:44.300]  I don't know if it's a school of lawyers, the collective pronoun, but, but, but they have, they have the people whose very job it is to craft each and every word and each and every sentence and go over them again and again before they, before they put them out there.
[15:44.300 --> 15:53.620]  So, um, people like, uh, people reading these terms that were put out, we're not inferring anything that, um, Instagram was not aware that people could infer from this.
[15:53.700 --> 15:54.900]  This was, this was no misunderstanding.
[15:55.080 --> 15:56.440]  This was no unclear wording.
[15:56.580 --> 15:59.960]  This was, this was very clear as to what it would allow Instagram to do.
[16:00.320 --> 16:10.360]  And this is a grand tradition, which Facebook championed, which is release terms of service, new ones that are somewhat unreasonable or more commercial about selling something.
[16:10.360 --> 16:12.000]  And then people rebel.
[16:12.180 --> 16:19.240]  And this goes back to what we were talking about before with, uh, does everybody understand that when you put your photos on a service and then they do something you don't like?
[16:19.640 --> 16:20.400]  Well, they can.
[16:20.820 --> 16:27.300]  Um, there's this weird thing that Facebook does and no coincidence, they now own Instagram where they suddenly change the terms.
[16:27.540 --> 16:28.400]  Everybody gets angry.
[16:28.540 --> 16:33.320]  And then to some extent they, maybe they back off or at least they publish an apology.
[16:33.540 --> 16:35.140]  And then maybe they change the terms of service.
[16:35.140 --> 16:41.380]  This is a sort of forced democracy with a very tiny D, um, corporate democracy.
[16:41.640 --> 16:41.920]  I don't know.
[16:42.220 --> 16:43.080]  It's weird.
[16:43.080 --> 16:46.740]  And, uh, an interesting study in, in, in social, uh, relationships.
[16:47.200 --> 16:49.800]  Uh, and I imagine they make a change anyway.
[16:50.080 --> 16:56.180]  It's a, it says, they might not make the big step they want to make, but they make a little step and people feel like they've won something.
[16:56.400 --> 17:10.580]  So Facebook had this thing where they would, uh, post their terms, their proposed terms, and they would have a vote and it was hilarious because they decreed that there was a quorum of 30% of all Facebook users or otherwise the vote didn't count.
[17:10.780 --> 17:22.120]  So even though they had the vote and the vote was like 90%, no, it, I mean like of my, of the Facebook accounts that I control, I couldn't bother to look up the passwords for 30% of them to get them to vote.
[17:22.280 --> 17:22.540]  What do you mean?
[17:22.660 --> 17:25.160]  Well, Facebook accounts that you can, how many do you control?
[17:25.340 --> 17:26.000]  You're one person.
[17:26.160 --> 17:27.400]  You're not allowed to have more than one.
[17:27.880 --> 17:29.300]  We should get to that in a second.
[17:29.300 --> 17:34.500]  There's actually a story about that, but I have, you know, five or six for testing things, testing, testing things.
[17:34.680 --> 17:34.960]  Wow.
[17:35.120 --> 17:41.440]  If you want to write software that interacts with the Facebook platform, which I, is a terrible experience, but sometimes you have to do it.
[17:41.860 --> 17:44.040]  Um, then you, you might need more than one account.
[17:44.380 --> 17:47.100]  Technically I shouldn't have an account at all because I'm not using my real name.
[17:47.720 --> 17:51.260]  Let's, let's go to this story because there's a story from Germany just today.
[17:51.900 --> 17:53.520]  Um, you're going to a story on your phone.
[17:53.600 --> 17:53.760]  Okay.
[17:53.820 --> 17:56.620]  I actually printed it out, but I forgot to bring the print out.
[17:56.640 --> 17:57.440]  I thought it was on Facebook.
[17:57.440 --> 18:05.260]  Um, the, the, uh, the data protection agency for the German state of Schleswig-Holstein, which I'm pronouncing wrong.
[18:05.400 --> 18:10.240]  And people from that particular place, uh, the email address, OTH at 2610.com.
[18:10.440 --> 18:14.380]  Send us like a, uh, an MP3 or a WAV file of how to pronounce it correctly.
[18:14.380 --> 18:16.360]  And we'll just play that next time we want to say.
[18:16.460 --> 18:17.300]  We'll, we'll do it too.
[18:17.440 --> 18:20.620]  If somebody, you have to be from there, we're going to check, we're going to check your email address.
[18:20.620 --> 18:23.460]  Um, but anyway, it's in Northern Germany, uh, just below Denmark.
[18:23.880 --> 18:29.340]  Um, they have said that it is against German law to require real names on Facebook.
[18:29.860 --> 18:37.140]  Uh, the, the privacy laws in Germany require you, according to this agency, to allow your users to use pseudonyms.
[18:37.360 --> 18:38.100]  Thank you, Germany.
[18:38.100 --> 18:45.600]  So, so this, this order so far only applies in the state, which I won't try and pronounce again, but it's possible that other German states could follow its lead.
[18:45.760 --> 18:48.360]  You know, just for that, I'm going to, my next car is going to be a German car.
[18:48.500 --> 18:49.700]  That's how much that means to me.
[18:49.800 --> 18:54.480]  Yeah, no, I mean it because if Germany says something like that, uh, it's worthy of support there.
[18:54.900 --> 18:55.460]  All right.
[18:55.660 --> 18:58.900]  Bernie, now, how do you keep your images from falling into the wrong hands?
[18:59.280 --> 19:04.760]  Uh, I don't use Facebook and I don't use Instagram, but I have used like companies like Flickr, which is owned by Yahoo.
[19:05.140 --> 19:05.260]  All right.
[19:05.260 --> 19:06.240]  Why is Flickr okay?
[19:06.240 --> 19:08.200]  You can actually own your photos there.
[19:08.340 --> 19:15.180]  You can, you can make them available to others or copyright them or make them non-copyrighted or...
[19:15.180 --> 19:17.340]  Until they change their terms of service.
[19:17.620 --> 19:27.000]  You have options with your, with your intellectual property content when you use, uh, Yahoo's Flickr and there's like a free version of it, which is very limited use.
[19:27.160 --> 19:27.760]  Wait, Yahoo owns Flickr?
[19:27.820 --> 19:29.980]  You can pay them so much a month or a year.
[19:30.280 --> 19:31.980]  Well, Bernie, you know, it's the way it should be, I think.
[19:32.560 --> 19:34.260]  Wow, this isn't a two-way connection, is it?
[19:34.660 --> 19:37.100]  I didn't know, you can't hear me when I'm talking, Bernie, can you?
[19:37.320 --> 19:42.220]  I don't know what it's called, but when Skype sends audio, when one person is talking, it stops the other from going through.
[19:42.420 --> 19:45.620]  All right, Skype has to improve that because it's important to have a bi-directional conversation.
[19:45.740 --> 19:51.220]  Bernie, uh, so now, couldn't Flickr just change their terms of service and be just like Instagram then?
[19:51.980 --> 20:10.700]  Yes, but they're, they don't, as, as, uh, um, as Mike was saying, they're, they don't have this, uh, this thing, or as Mark was saying, I guess, they're not like Facebook from the standpoint of, they just kept coming out with these outrageous, uh, changes in terms of service all the time and then people yell and scream and then they back it off a little bit or just apologize.
[20:10.700 --> 20:18.900]  You know, Flickr, Yahoo isn't quite as bad in, in that respect, but this whole story, people are missing the basic business one-on-one aspect to it.
[20:19.460 --> 20:21.740]  Facebook is now a publicly held company.
[20:21.860 --> 20:29.780]  They have shareholders, stockholders, and they have a fiduciary responsibility to earn a profit for their shareholders, stockholders.
[20:30.000 --> 20:41.680]  And when Facebook bought Instagram for a billion dollars, that's a thousand million dollars, um, they have a fiduciary responsibility for getting a return on that investment.
[20:41.820 --> 20:45.960]  In other words, making back not just that billion, but a good profit on top of that billion.
[20:46.140 --> 20:48.780]  And how are they going to do that with, with Instagram?
[20:49.140 --> 20:50.420]  They got to figure out a way to do that.
[20:50.520 --> 20:53.940]  And they figured, I guess, uh, well, we'll sell people's, everybody's photos.
[20:54.100 --> 20:56.880]  How else are they going to make back more than a billion dollars?
[20:57.400 --> 20:58.780]  All right, let's hear from Chico from Brazil.
[20:59.380 --> 20:59.780]  Yeah.
[21:00.080 --> 21:13.820]  Um, I just came up with a question because Bernie doesn't have a Facebook account or an Instagram account, but what if someone else takes a picture of Bernie and puts it on Instagram, can they do that?
[21:13.920 --> 21:15.760]  And can they use it on a commercial then?
[21:15.880 --> 21:16.660]  What are you going to do about that?
[21:17.300 --> 21:18.780]  That's, I'm sure that's going to happen.
[21:18.980 --> 21:20.860]  And it's going to raise some interesting legal questions.
[21:21.060 --> 21:23.320]  Maybe not of me, but of somebody, it's going to happen.
[21:23.600 --> 21:24.920]  Why do you think Bernie is only on the phone?
[21:25.000 --> 21:26.240]  So no one can take a picture of him.
[21:26.420 --> 21:28.620]  No one has ever successfully taken a picture of Bernie.
[21:28.780 --> 21:31.560]  But, but Flickr is owned by Yahoo, which is also publicly traded.
[21:31.560 --> 21:35.760]  And it's true that thus far Flickr has seemed to be less evil.
[21:36.660 --> 21:41.020]  Um, possibly because Yahoo management is incompetent, possibly because they're nice people.
[21:41.140 --> 21:41.520]  I don't know.
[21:41.700 --> 21:43.020]  Oh, now the Yahoo email is going to come in.
[21:43.860 --> 21:46.160]  But, uh, that could change at any moment as well.
[21:46.480 --> 21:56.520]  And, but the important thing to consider when you're dealing with any profit making enterprise like Facebook, like Instagram, like Yahoo even, um, if you're not paying to use the product, you're not the customer.
[21:56.660 --> 22:01.740]  You're the product being sold to the customers, whether that be, um, advertisers, whether that be, uh, something else.
[22:01.740 --> 22:01.900]  Exactly.
[22:02.080 --> 22:02.920]  You're not the customer.
[22:02.920 --> 22:03.600]  You're the product.
[22:03.740 --> 22:04.620]  People have to remember that.
[22:04.720 --> 22:05.340]  Very good point.
[22:05.940 --> 22:09.060]  And, uh, that's why, uh, you really don't have much of a say.
[22:09.520 --> 22:16.220]  This whole 30%, uh, having to, uh, vote on Facebook strikes me as more than they have to do, even in my opinion.
[22:16.440 --> 22:19.260]  And I don't think they'll be doing that for the indefinite future.
[22:19.440 --> 22:19.700]  Oh, no.
[22:19.780 --> 22:23.500]  But part of the recent round of changes was to get rid of this sham process.
[22:23.840 --> 22:25.400]  I mean, it sounds very idealistic, but, uh...
[22:25.400 --> 22:27.760]  So people voted against it, but not enough.
[22:27.940 --> 22:32.160]  So if Facebook bought Instagram for $1 billion, how much would it cost to buy Facebook?
[22:32.720 --> 22:35.380]  Well, I mean, it's a publicly traded company.
[22:35.560 --> 22:37.340]  You can look it up, but more than I can afford.
[22:38.080 --> 22:38.360]  Wow.
[22:39.000 --> 22:39.280]  Okay.
[22:39.380 --> 22:40.140]  Well, that's interesting.
[22:40.340 --> 22:42.300]  Uh, and, uh, we'll be following that.
[22:42.480 --> 22:46.960]  Uh, is there any, any concluding remarks we need to make about, uh, this, uh, whether we want to recommend to people, Mark?
[22:47.160 --> 22:48.080]  Well, there are...
[22:48.080 --> 22:48.340]  I'm sorry.
[22:48.500 --> 22:48.660]  Go ahead.
[22:48.660 --> 22:51.440]  There are, of course, alternatives to Instagram.
[22:51.500 --> 22:53.980]  I don't know that you want me to start naming them, but they exist.
[22:54.120 --> 22:55.340]  And actually, I think a lot are gonna...
[22:55.340 --> 22:56.600]  We name names here in this program.
[22:56.680 --> 22:56.840]  Go ahead.
[22:56.900 --> 22:58.140]  A lot are gonna pop up.
[22:58.380 --> 22:59.900]  Um, you mentioned Flickr.
[23:00.000 --> 23:05.920]  I don't know if this is interesting, but Flickr now is pushing their mobile app so that you can do a lot of the same things that Instagram does.
[23:05.920 --> 23:07.200]  It looks very similar.
[23:07.460 --> 23:09.100]  I don't know if that's, again, good or bad.
[23:09.320 --> 23:12.960]  There's also these sort of independent ones like, I think this is called Stream Zoo.
[23:13.400 --> 23:18.200]  Stream Zoo is trying to make its name now by saying, you know, we don't do that evil stuff.
[23:18.400 --> 23:21.220]  Can you take pictures of things that aren't animals with Stream Zoo?
[23:21.220 --> 23:21.580]  You can.
[23:21.760 --> 23:23.220]  It's just a zoo of people's images.
[23:23.720 --> 23:27.180]  I mean, because the internet is made out of cats, so I don't know if that's related here.
[23:27.400 --> 23:28.800]  I don't know where I'm going with this.
[23:28.900 --> 23:29.060]  Anyway.
[23:29.320 --> 23:33.560]  But yeah, there's gonna be a rise of apps that say, we don't do that evil stuff.
[23:33.660 --> 23:38.780]  And it's up to us, I guess, to figure out who we prefer if we're gonna leave Instagram.
[23:40.240 --> 23:40.760]  All right.
[23:41.280 --> 23:42.000]  Moving along.
[23:43.500 --> 23:46.540]  A couple of stories that I'd just like to touch upon just for a moment.
[23:46.540 --> 23:54.520]  Uh, there's this so-called Hollywood hacker, uh, who was sentenced to prison, uh, for his crimes on Monday.
[23:54.580 --> 24:03.660]  Federal judge on Monday sentenced a man, uh, who hacked into the personal online accounts of Scarlett Johansson, uh, Mila Kunis.
[24:03.740 --> 24:04.780]  Am I pronouncing these names right?
[24:04.800 --> 24:06.840]  They're apparently starlets that I don't know.
[24:06.840 --> 24:10.240]  And other women to 10 years in prison, uh, U.S.
[24:10.620 --> 24:11.540]  District Judge S.
[24:11.820 --> 24:22.200]  James Otero, I wonder what the S stands for, uh, sentenced Christopher Cheney in Los Angeles after hearing from a tearful Johansson in a videotaped statement.
[24:22.640 --> 24:31.520]  Uh, the biggest spectacle in the case was the revelation that nude photos taken by Johansson herself and meant for her then-husband, Ryan Reynolds, were placed on the internet.
[24:31.860 --> 24:33.420]  Uh, how were these pictures obtained?
[24:33.440 --> 24:35.200]  Because they were on her phone or something?
[24:35.220 --> 24:36.880]  Or was it really...
[24:36.880 --> 24:43.820]  Again, you put pictures in a place, somebody accesses them, whether it's a corporation or, uh, you know, a mischievous individual.
[24:44.200 --> 24:46.300]  Um, you can't really be that surprised, right?
[24:46.500 --> 24:56.160]  Yeah, I don't think it was made clear in this case, uh, in any of the public reports about it, if it was photos just on her phone or photos that she had sent from her phone to some service or something else.
[24:56.280 --> 24:59.420]  But, uh, one way or another, this fellow got hold of him and made them public.
[24:59.420 --> 24:59.440]  Right.
[24:59.620 --> 25:03.080]  Now, uh, he, uh, is 35 years old from Jacksonville, Florida.
[25:03.260 --> 25:08.100]  He pleaded guilty to counts that included wiretapping and unauthorized access to a computer.
[25:08.740 --> 25:11.100]  Uh, Bernie, where do you think the wiretapping comes in here?
[25:11.460 --> 25:22.360]  Well, the federal, the federal statutes, um, there are federal laws against wiretapping and it doesn't include just physically, it doesn't mean just physically connecting to a pair of telephone wires.
[25:22.500 --> 25:31.740]  It can mean a whole lot of things, like all kinds of audio, electronic surveillance is considered, um, audio and just different kinds of electronic surveillance is called wiretapping.
[25:31.860 --> 25:34.160]  It's like sort of a broad brush the feds use.
[25:34.320 --> 25:37.480]  And he was found guilty of, of wiretapping.
[25:37.740 --> 25:38.700]  Right, but what, what, what was that?
[25:39.020 --> 25:41.300]  I know it's a felony, but what was the wiretapping?
[25:41.400 --> 25:43.560]  What was the actual act that was considered wiretapping?
[25:44.080 --> 25:46.160]  Uh, that's a really good question.
[25:46.300 --> 25:54.100]  I haven't read the indictment, but, um, it, it, it apparently has something to do with him accessing, uh, her cell phone.
[25:54.340 --> 25:58.280]  Now, wiretapping doesn't mean just accessing stored information.
[25:58.480 --> 26:01.680]  Wiretapping, I think, has to be something that's in transit.
[26:01.920 --> 26:11.480]  So he may have somehow figured out a way to intercept stuff as it was coming from her phone to her, to Scarlett Johansson's phone to her, to her husband's phone, that sort of thing.
[26:11.560 --> 26:15.380]  There was some sort of interception he was involved with, apparently, and convicted of.
[26:15.380 --> 26:17.500]  Um, but that's a felony.
[26:17.720 --> 26:24.540]  And then the, uh, the other stuff, the unauthorized access to a computer, that's, uh, that's Title 18, Section 1030, which some of our friends have been convicted of.
[26:24.640 --> 26:27.740]  That's unauthorized, you know, accessing a computer you don't have permission to access.
[26:28.080 --> 26:29.180]  And that's a felony.
[26:29.480 --> 26:35.180]  And supposedly he, uh, allegedly did this to scores of, of people, scores of women.
[26:35.360 --> 26:41.980]  Well, he also, uh, supposedly did it to, uh, two women he knew, sending nude, nude photos of one former coworker to her father.
[26:42.560 --> 26:44.240]  Uh, they both knew Cheney.
[26:44.440 --> 26:47.000]  They said their lives have been irreparably damaged by his actions.
[26:47.160 --> 26:48.580]  One has anxiety and panic attacks.
[26:48.660 --> 26:49.880]  The other is depressed and paranoid.
[26:50.400 --> 26:52.800]  Both say Cheney was calculated, cruel, and creepy.
[26:53.140 --> 26:59.980]  It doesn't seem to be a question that this is not a very nice person, but does it warrant 10 years in prison for doing this?
[27:00.060 --> 27:00.200]  Mike?
[27:00.380 --> 27:02.220]  I think they got the wrong Cheney.
[27:03.020 --> 27:04.300]  I mean, for wiretapping?
[27:04.420 --> 27:05.640]  Well, this one is spelled with an A.
[27:05.740 --> 27:06.060]  I know.
[27:06.360 --> 27:12.720]  And look, I agree with you that this, this guy is, is not a nice man and, and probably even a criminal, but 10 years in prison does seem excessive.
[27:13.420 --> 27:13.740]  Yeah.
[27:13.920 --> 27:18.460]  I'm not, uh, you know, again, we seem to solve all of our problems by sending people to prison.
[27:18.620 --> 27:24.860]  And yeah, there's no question that from what we are hearing that this isn't a very nice person, but, uh, does this solve the problem?
[27:24.960 --> 27:26.540]  Is this an appropriate response?
[27:27.260 --> 27:28.380]  Um, I don't know.
[27:28.540 --> 27:29.600]  I mean, I, I, I'm not sure.
[27:29.860 --> 27:31.760]  I, I'd like to know, uh, the answer to that.
[27:31.880 --> 27:33.580]  So, uh, that's a story.
[27:33.740 --> 27:33.820]  Yeah.
[27:33.820 --> 27:34.240]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[27:34.760 --> 27:35.340]  Uh, real quick.
[27:35.380 --> 27:54.620]  I just want to mention the, uh, the prosecutor, the federal prosecutors in this case only asked for a six year sentence, but the judge reportedly, uh, got angry at the defendant for having, uh, uh, allegedly kept doing this stuff after the fed seized his computer and then supposedly he kept doing it.
[27:54.820 --> 28:05.460]  So the judge in his, uh, you know, remarks in court in his ruling said that this guy, uh, really just didn't learn a lesson and he, he really needs to learn at this time.
[28:05.720 --> 28:09.500]  So maybe it could also be, uh, uh, defined as some kind of an addiction.
[28:09.500 --> 28:10.480]  He couldn't stop.
[28:10.620 --> 28:11.520]  He couldn't help himself.
[28:11.700 --> 28:17.800]  I mean, the, the way, uh, these kinds of, um, of, of actions are categorized are increasingly strange.
[28:18.000 --> 28:22.980]  Um, so I'm not sure, um, what the proper approach is, but it's interesting.
[28:23.100 --> 28:33.020]  He was arrested in October, 2011, and you might not have heard of this as part of a year long investigation of celebrity hacking that authorities dubbed operation hackarazzi.
[28:33.620 --> 28:34.060]  Yeah.
[28:34.220 --> 28:35.300]  I never heard of this.
[28:35.700 --> 28:37.500]  That is the silliest thing ever.
[28:37.980 --> 28:46.100]  Um, and his computer had, um, uh, his hard drive, uh, contain numerous private, uh, celebrity photos and a document that compiled their extensive personal data.
[28:46.220 --> 28:47.160]  That's according to a search warrant.
[28:47.200 --> 28:51.880]  Now, my question is, would this even be news if it didn't include celebrities?
[28:51.880 --> 28:54.840]  Is that the reason why a, this case is prosecuted?
[28:54.900 --> 28:56.880]  B, this case is talked about in the first place.
[28:57.580 --> 28:58.020]  Yes.
[28:58.240 --> 29:00.020]  And see why the sentence was so high.
[29:00.180 --> 29:00.420]  Uh-huh.
[29:00.620 --> 29:01.520]  To protect celebrities.
[29:02.020 --> 29:02.260]  Yeah.
[29:02.480 --> 29:05.740]  Would he have gotten 10 years if this, if these were just, uh, random people?
[29:05.880 --> 29:11.060]  I mean, I've seen people drop docs on IRC and be very nasty and, and relentless.
[29:11.540 --> 29:14.020]  And, uh, you know, it's kind of brushed off.
[29:14.220 --> 29:24.100]  I'm not saying this is something that can be brushed off, but, uh, um, again, I'm not sure if 10 years in prison or, you know, prison at all is, is the message to send in this particular case.
[29:24.200 --> 29:30.540]  But we'd like to hear O-T-H at 2600.com if you have, um, any ideas or thoughts about that or call us later.
[29:30.920 --> 29:35.720]  Now, uh, Bicycle Mark, you have been to some very interesting places since we talked to you last.
[29:35.920 --> 29:41.420]  In fact, very recently, uh, you have been journeying in parts of the world that even I would fear to tread.
[29:41.800 --> 29:43.580]  Um, tell us something about where you've been.
[29:44.140 --> 29:44.280]  Okay.
[29:44.460 --> 29:50.340]  Uh, in the last month, over the course of five weeks, I went to Tunisia, Egypt, and Lebanon.
[29:50.740 --> 29:53.060]  And the goal was to do a series of interviews.
[29:53.180 --> 29:54.900]  I do audio, I do podcasting.
[29:55.100 --> 29:56.220]  Wait, why didn't you go to Syria?
[29:56.960 --> 29:59.000]  Um, I couldn't get the visa.
[29:59.240 --> 29:59.560]  Okay.
[29:59.740 --> 30:00.080]  All right.
[30:00.320 --> 30:00.720]  No, no.
[30:00.840 --> 30:02.820]  Cause the goal was not to be a frontline reporter.
[30:02.820 --> 30:05.620]  I'm not known for that, nor do I think I'm good at that.
[30:05.860 --> 30:21.760]  The goal was to speak with, in this case, artists, but I, we kept the definition broad, uh, to talk about what's going on with their work, but especially with their country today, to add more details to what we normally get in mainstream media about what's going on there.
[30:22.280 --> 30:25.100]  And, uh, so I went, I, I crowdfunded the project.
[30:25.280 --> 30:25.680]  Thanks everybody.
[30:26.100 --> 30:30.940]  Uh, and got what I needed to, uh, handle housing, transportation.
[30:31.480 --> 30:34.100]  Of course, I'm an expert at traveling cheap as, as I think we all are.
[30:34.500 --> 30:36.440]  And so, uh, I had an amazing time.
[30:36.540 --> 30:40.100]  I spent three weeks in Cairo, uh, one week in Tunis, which is...
[30:40.100 --> 30:44.360]  But you were in, and Tartuia Square, uh, during one of the massive demonstrations recently.
[30:44.360 --> 30:58.940]  Yeah, I, just by sheer coincidence that the week that I was there, I mean, the first week that I was there, uh, the President Mohamed Morsi made a big declaration that he is above the law, or if you want to get more specific, it was more legalese than that.
[30:59.540 --> 31:02.320]  And, uh, people were, of course, outraged.
[31:02.500 --> 31:05.900]  And all of a sudden, I mean, the square came alive again.
[31:05.980 --> 31:08.140]  When I first arrived, Tahrir Square was not that busy.
[31:08.420 --> 31:13.220]  It was the anniversary of a slaughter that took place on this graffiti street, Mohamed Mahmoud Street.
[31:13.460 --> 31:14.080]  Graffiti Street?
[31:14.300 --> 31:16.600]  Yeah, there's a street that's... they don't call it Graffiti Street.
[31:16.700 --> 31:17.600]  I'm, I'm giving it that name.
[31:17.720 --> 31:18.620]  It's Mohamed Mahmoud Street.
[31:18.800 --> 31:21.860]  And it's where this very famous graffiti is.
[31:22.180 --> 31:28.560]  It's, it's, it's constantly, every day people are graffitiing the images of people who died during the protests in 2011, during the revolution.
[31:29.140 --> 31:34.100]  And then the authorities are always trying to wipe it down and repaint it, and then people come back and paint again.
[31:34.440 --> 31:39.400]  It's, it's a beautiful place, but it's also a place with a lot of sad memories because people died there.
[31:39.780 --> 31:42.600]  And at first, it was pretty quiet on Tahrir Square.
[31:42.760 --> 31:56.560]  But after this announcement from the president, all of a sudden, the protests returned, people were coming back, people who lived those 18 days in the square were, were saying, you know, this is, this is just like then, or at least trying to say this is almost like then.
[31:56.840 --> 32:03.160]  So I was in the square, it was full, it was full of life, and so much energy.
[32:03.560 --> 32:05.160]  And I had a great time.
[32:05.360 --> 32:08.080]  I don't know if we're supposed to say things like that during a time of struggle.
[32:08.280 --> 32:09.020]  But I did.
[32:09.560 --> 32:18.200]  Well, there were counter demonstrations that follow, then there was allegations of torture, interrogation right there on the square by members of the government.
[32:18.580 --> 32:19.760]  Were you there for that?
[32:19.880 --> 32:22.000]  Or had you left before that happened?
[32:22.200 --> 32:29.900]  I left right before people started to really push and be in front of the presidential palace, because Tahrir Square is sacred.
[32:30.600 --> 32:35.600]  I would dare to say these days that you won't catch big confrontations in Tahrir Square.
[32:36.080 --> 32:37.340]  Revolutionaries own that square.
[32:37.660 --> 32:44.080]  I saw one confrontation where someone was accused of being of the Muslim Brotherhood, and slapped a lot.
[32:44.460 --> 32:49.360]  And then they sort of calmed down, and they removed the guy saying that he was some kind of a spy.
[32:49.460 --> 32:50.000]  It was a little weird.
[32:50.080 --> 32:51.580]  There's always that that danger sometimes.
[32:51.860 --> 32:53.780]  But otherwise, it was an extremely nice place.
[32:53.960 --> 32:56.280]  That's that's one case out of a couple hundred thousand.
[32:56.520 --> 33:05.160]  But yes, after I left, this would be in the last week, or two weeks, in front of the presidential palace, there have been confrontations where people were killed and injured.
[33:05.440 --> 33:06.860]  Not the case where I was.
[33:06.980 --> 33:11.760]  And at that time, the Muslim Brotherhood was canceling a lot of counter demonstrations.
[33:12.120 --> 33:14.660]  I think that they were afraid of what might happen.
[33:14.860 --> 33:23.680]  And of course, you know, it wasn't necessary for them to come out and purposely crash or clash with the revolutionaries at that time.
[33:23.800 --> 33:25.160]  So this stuff has happened.
[33:25.260 --> 33:40.320]  But while I was there, I got to see a lot of great demonstrations and see a lot of the art and the creative minds that have been working on different things, including, you know, actors, documentary filmmakers, old writers, young writers.
[33:41.080 --> 33:41.960]  It's amazing.
[33:42.180 --> 33:51.340]  I mean, it's not representative of everybody in Egypt, because, of course, Egypt has its illiterate, and it's poor, and they weren't running out to talk to me.
[33:51.440 --> 33:52.320]  It's harder that way.
[33:53.460 --> 33:56.080]  But then again, I set the goal to talk with artists.
[33:56.200 --> 33:58.380]  I wasn't trying to talk to the most successful.
[33:58.560 --> 34:01.460]  I wanted to talk to starting, struggling artists, and I did.
[34:02.180 --> 34:06.560]  So I got an amazing picture of what is a very complicated place.
[34:07.240 --> 34:15.560]  I can give you as much good news as I can give you bad news, but I saw tremendous change and something going on in that country on a very personal level.
[34:15.700 --> 34:19.440]  Now, you've recorded a bunch of audio from these visits.
[34:19.720 --> 34:21.360]  Where can people hear them and when?
[34:22.560 --> 34:27.400]  So, audio has been going up all along the journey and still now, and that's on citizenreporter.org.
[34:27.520 --> 34:28.400]  That's my website.
[34:28.400 --> 34:32.880]  But I was in cooperation with Christopher Lydon from radio opensource.org.
[34:33.000 --> 34:35.260]  I was just up in Boston, still working on the audio.
[34:35.580 --> 34:38.740]  A lot of the big interviews have gone on his website at this point.
[34:38.780 --> 34:49.300]  So that's in both places where audio is going to continue to go up, because every day we were doing two or three interviews and long walks, and there's just still so much to talk about.
[34:49.300 --> 34:56.080]  And this is only the beginning for us because, of course, it's a massive country with an amazing history and there's just too much to cover.
[34:56.280 --> 35:08.280]  Is there anything you can say to people that would be interested in doing that kind of a job, going out, talking to people in a potentially contentious environment?
[35:09.080 --> 35:10.440]  Do you have a lot of equipment?
[35:10.960 --> 35:12.540]  How do you make yourself known?
[35:13.240 --> 35:14.200]  Yeah, it's funny.
[35:14.340 --> 35:20.340]  We went with... Chris brought a, for example, a shotgun microphone, which is a terrible name for a microphone to begin with.
[35:20.920 --> 35:24.500]  And I brought a very portable recorder that looks like a mobile phone.
[35:24.600 --> 35:27.500]  I know from experience, a shotgun microphone will get a lot of attention immediately.
[35:27.780 --> 35:27.980]  Yeah.
[35:28.120 --> 35:35.200]  And a lot of people have been tortured and survived some very violent situations, looked at the mic and kind of looked at me like, do we have to?
[35:35.580 --> 35:36.600]  And I thought, oh.
[35:36.600 --> 35:36.600]  No.
[35:36.720 --> 35:39.600]  So we had brought that along for its quality of sound.
[35:39.640 --> 35:46.280]  But when I used a recorder that was the size of a mobile phone, a cell phone, it was so much easier and no one paused.
[35:46.460 --> 35:48.100]  I mean, in general, people were so happy to talk.
[35:48.220 --> 35:57.840]  And that's something that I noticed when I was in Egypt, I was getting constant messages from here in New Jersey, in the New Jersey area where I come from, and from Europe saying, be careful, be safe, be careful, be safe.
[35:58.940 --> 36:06.520]  When I was there, I felt extremely safe, especially we're talking not even when you're at the protest, when you're just living normal life or normal life for a visitor.
[36:07.320 --> 36:08.080]  Extremely safe.
[36:08.220 --> 36:12.540]  And I saw that people were, Egyptians, were extremely glad to see you.
[36:12.640 --> 36:14.020]  You've probably had this in a few countries.
[36:14.020 --> 36:14.280]  Yes.
[36:14.900 --> 36:24.060]  In the ones you went to probably post war years later, but still Egypt that didn't even have a war, people are concerned that the world is afraid of them.
[36:24.220 --> 36:26.040]  And that's how I interpreted it.
[36:26.200 --> 36:31.740]  What I got was when I walked the streets and somebody would spot me as a foreigner, which didn't always happen, they would say, welcome.
[36:32.200 --> 36:32.540]  Welcome.
[36:32.840 --> 36:33.460]  Glad you're here.
[36:33.620 --> 36:33.840]  Welcome.
[36:34.060 --> 36:34.320]  Enjoy.
[36:34.580 --> 36:39.240]  Well, in most places, I'd say all places I've been to, people just want to tell their story.
[36:39.320 --> 36:42.400]  And this goes from North Korea to Kosovo.
[36:43.200 --> 36:44.800]  People want to be heard.
[36:44.920 --> 36:49.380]  They want the world to know their perspective, what they are going through, how they feel.
[36:50.140 --> 36:53.240]  And it's great to go out there and listen to bring a microphone.
[36:53.540 --> 37:00.660]  Well, maybe not to North Korea to bring a microphone, but at least to listen and to learn something from that and to share that.
[37:01.380 --> 37:06.240]  So any valuable lessons you learned from going to these places, things you didn't know beforehand?
[37:06.840 --> 37:09.780]  I didn't know how much individual lives were changing.
[37:09.940 --> 37:19.500]  And I'm saying a daughter, a brother in a family starting to stand up to parents when parents are saying things that are unreasonable or they're demanding things that are unreasonable of them.
[37:20.080 --> 37:21.860]  People are in their regular lives.
[37:21.920 --> 37:24.300]  There was a transport strike, something we hate here in New York City.
[37:24.380 --> 37:24.840]  Well, some people.
[37:25.400 --> 37:27.720]  There was a transport strike in Cairo while I was there.
[37:28.160 --> 37:29.760]  I thought, okay, that must be standard.
[37:30.080 --> 37:31.040]  And they said, absolutely not.
[37:31.120 --> 37:35.800]  It's the first one in recent memory that under Mubarak, never could we have a transport strike.
[37:36.220 --> 37:43.940]  It's things like this that may seem like small potatoes, but in the individual lives in Egypt, I think a lot is changing.
[37:44.160 --> 37:47.480]  And a lot of people are going, let's go, hurry up, hurry up.
[37:47.540 --> 37:48.400]  You know, what's going on?
[37:48.420 --> 37:49.280]  Is the revolution done?
[37:49.420 --> 37:49.820]  Are you ready?
[37:50.260 --> 37:51.180]  What's this constitution?
[37:51.360 --> 37:56.560]  But I saw just in regular lives, so many changes for women, for young people.
[37:56.880 --> 37:59.600]  And, you know, the old people, their lives are changing too.
[37:59.740 --> 38:01.060]  And some of them are scared about it.
[38:01.220 --> 38:01.980]  They're worried.
[38:02.740 --> 38:05.080]  Maybe, maybe it'll get worse than it was before.
[38:05.240 --> 38:06.520]  It was bad, but maybe it'll be worse.
[38:06.640 --> 38:08.420]  So you also have the scared people.
[38:08.580 --> 38:12.660]  That's a big part of the population in any country, but including in Egypt.
[38:12.840 --> 38:14.500]  How about the other countries you visited?
[38:14.500 --> 38:21.500]  Uh, Tunisia was very interesting, especially for, they love cartoonists and cartoons.
[38:21.880 --> 38:24.080]  I've never seen a country that is so into cartoons.
[38:24.080 --> 38:27.580]  I feel like in our newspapers in America, I see less and less cartoons.
[38:28.600 --> 38:35.060]  And Tunisia is in an interesting situation and also frustrating, where a lot of the old structures are still in place.
[38:35.180 --> 38:36.300]  The police are still the enemy.
[38:36.560 --> 38:43.160]  The police still think that this whole democracy thing is dangerous, is a threat to them.
[38:43.300 --> 38:45.000]  So that was worrying.
[38:45.260 --> 38:50.680]  And then a whole separate talk is, I went to Lebanon to look around and see what it's about.
[38:51.120 --> 38:54.160]  And, uh, that's a whole, that's not the revolution.
[38:54.920 --> 38:57.620]  That's fear of the return of a civil war.
[38:57.820 --> 39:00.320]  And at the same time, it's every day is fun.
[39:00.520 --> 39:01.700]  The food is fantastic.
[39:01.700 --> 39:03.640]  And, and you'd say, oh, why are we talking about food?
[39:03.720 --> 39:08.340]  But food is so important to Lebanese people that, that food is in everything.
[39:08.500 --> 39:09.300]  Food is political.
[39:09.600 --> 39:10.420]  Food is artistic.
[39:10.680 --> 39:20.780]  So I'm not a very, uh, I'm not a guy who eats a lot, but in Lebanon, I grew to respect food a great deal and, and, and listen to what people were saying about it and around it.
[39:20.880 --> 39:24.980]  And I imagine people were very generous and open with food and, and hospitality in general.
[39:25.100 --> 39:26.820]  That's what I found everywhere I've been.
[39:27.280 --> 39:27.720]  Absolutely.
[39:27.920 --> 39:28.120]  Absolutely.
[39:28.320 --> 39:34.240]  Egyptians are used to visitors and, and we can call visitors of different kinds, colonialism in the past and in the present.
[39:34.580 --> 39:38.900]  So in a way they weren't impressed all the time, you know, especially for an interview.
[39:39.000 --> 39:42.360]  They've done a lot of interviews, some of these artists, which is also interesting.
[39:42.500 --> 39:47.000]  You know, every Egyptian has, of course, family or an experience outside of that country.
[39:47.220 --> 39:50.500]  So, uh, they're, they're also quite savvy when it comes to the world.
[39:50.580 --> 39:53.580]  They know about what's going on in, in the U S somewhat.
[39:53.840 --> 39:58.720]  I was there during the election as it's, so when Obama was reelected and that was another thing.
[39:58.820 --> 40:03.900]  We kept sort of asking people, you were following the elections and they sort of shrugged their shoulders and said, yeah, it's good.
[40:04.060 --> 40:04.740]  He's reelected.
[40:04.920 --> 40:08.460]  You know, we don't like the policies towards this region, regardless of who's elected.
[40:08.860 --> 40:10.260]  Did you find any Romney fans over there?
[40:10.260 --> 40:11.540]  No, no, I did not.
[40:12.180 --> 40:13.460]  Not a single one.
[40:13.640 --> 40:14.560]  No, no.
[40:14.580 --> 40:14.860]  Okay.
[40:14.900 --> 40:22.580]  We're speaking with Bicycle Mark, who has, uh, just been to, uh, Lebanon and, uh, Egypt and Tunisia and, and, and the Netherlands as well.
[40:22.840 --> 40:23.020]  Yeah.
[40:23.160 --> 40:26.780]  There's a hacker space in Cairo that I, I missed out on.
[40:26.880 --> 40:28.180]  I was going to ask about that.
[40:28.360 --> 40:29.720]  Uh, first I want to give out the phone number.
[40:29.880 --> 40:31.180]  Uh, it's a different number.
[40:31.320 --> 40:32.060]  So, so write it down.
[40:32.200 --> 40:33.560]  We'll be taking phone calls in just a minute or two.
[40:33.900 --> 40:36.080]  917-580-6020.
[40:36.400 --> 40:36.860]  Give us a call
[40:40.260 --> 40:40.900]  technology in general.
[40:41.260 --> 40:46.260]  Uh, technologies, of course, the mobile phone rules, cell phones everywhere, including when you're out in the square.
[40:46.500 --> 40:50.640]  I have so many images of people taking images because I thought that's kind of interesting to see.
[40:50.880 --> 40:53.140]  Um, so that's definitely the tool.
[40:53.520 --> 40:59.660]  Um, you don't see so many tablets that, you know, I think that's still a cost that people don't want to jump into.
[40:59.800 --> 41:04.180]  Although I noticed some people would have a tablet and not have a computer at all.
[41:04.180 --> 41:08.420]  Uh, so there's, there's a mix of how people are using technology.
[41:09.100 --> 41:14.240]  Um, and there's something else about, uh, technology and... What would you say is, is, is a difference?
[41:14.440 --> 41:17.140]  Something that, uh, we might not expect over there.
[41:17.320 --> 41:23.420]  Maybe something people have or don't have access to, or a way that they, they use technology that perhaps we don't?
[41:25.260 --> 41:31.080]  Twitter is a big deal, but okay, that's a big deal here, especially for Tahrir Square and what's going on in Egypt.
[41:31.400 --> 41:34.700]  People rely seemingly more on Twitter than they do on newspapers.
[41:35.240 --> 41:38.340]  We say that that's happening here, but they're, they're very much there.
[41:38.740 --> 41:42.060]  Um, I think that's also a tradition that started around the revolution.
[41:42.060 --> 41:45.400]  There were people in the square that weren't famous for anything else.
[41:45.520 --> 41:52.780]  They weren't columnists in a newspaper, but they started tweeting consistently about different subjects in the square and about the revolution.
[41:52.780 --> 41:54.900]  So they, to this day, they're reference points.
[41:54.960 --> 41:57.980]  And every now and then I got to meet one of these and I said, oh, you know, I know you from Twitter.
[41:58.100 --> 42:01.900]  And they, they were almost a little bit, you know, famous, too famous.
[42:02.080 --> 42:02.660]  They were like, yeah, hello.
[42:02.820 --> 42:02.960]  Hello.
[42:03.080 --> 42:04.020]  I've met many people like you.
[42:04.140 --> 42:04.280]  Hi.
[42:04.560 --> 42:04.900]  Interesting.
[42:05.140 --> 42:10.140]  How about over the air, uh, media, radio, television, you notice anything there?
[42:10.340 --> 42:15.440]  Well, there's still the, I think it's a ghost of, uh, of state television that still exists.
[42:15.440 --> 42:23.380]  And there's also still censorship of media, which is not supposed to happen, but these things like constitutions and stuff are not yet ironed out.
[42:23.480 --> 42:24.820]  So you still have censorship.
[42:25.360 --> 42:26.960]  Uh, TV is still very important.
[42:27.240 --> 42:32.440]  Uh, football on TV is still very important or soccer, uh, unfortunately I think.
[42:32.680 --> 42:35.720]  Uh, so TV still has a lot of power in that country.
[42:35.840 --> 42:39.180]  Email address for soccer fans, OTH at 2600.com.
[42:39.400 --> 42:40.080]  Try to keep it civil.
[42:40.320 --> 42:41.700]  And I'm probably from Brazil.
[42:41.840 --> 42:43.520]  They're going to be the, the, the, the emails.
[42:43.860 --> 42:45.940]  Um, that's what we can say to offend Brazil.
[42:46.200 --> 42:46.460]  Yeah.
[42:46.500 --> 42:49.600]  Watch out for Chico behind you because he's from Brazil and I imagine soccer is important.
[42:50.460 --> 42:50.900]  Yeah.
[42:52.560 --> 42:58.680]  So, um, the technology and, and television is still very big, mobile phones.
[42:58.920 --> 43:00.200]  And I don't know, that's about it.
[43:00.380 --> 43:03.840]  Uh, I used, I relied on a lot of, what do you call it?
[43:04.040 --> 43:10.300]  Uh, why a wireless, no mobile internet, because I couldn't always get DSL in a, in an apartment where I was staying.
[43:10.400 --> 43:11.340]  I didn't stay at hotels.
[43:11.460 --> 43:13.740]  I stayed at people's houses as best I could.
[43:14.080 --> 43:15.180]  And that's the way to do it.
[43:15.460 --> 43:15.860]  Yeah.
[43:15.940 --> 43:16.160]  Absolutely.
[43:16.420 --> 43:16.540]  Yeah.
[43:16.640 --> 43:30.340]  And oftentimes I had to go, I really got to know all the telecom companies of Egypt and Tunisia, especially because I would stand in line and negotiate whatever USB stick for my computer or a SIM card for my phone that would have internet.
[43:30.600 --> 43:33.500]  So I had to incur all these costs and all these extra details.
[43:33.500 --> 43:34.700]  USB stick with internet.
[43:35.140 --> 43:35.520]  Yeah.
[43:35.760 --> 43:35.980]  Oftentimes.
[43:36.340 --> 43:38.180]  And a lot of people use it as their primary internet.
[43:38.700 --> 43:46.480]  You don't have landline in your house or any kind of DSL in your house, but you go to the nearest telecom and you ask for mobile internet.
[43:46.560 --> 43:49.600]  They give you a USB stick that in it actually has the SIM card.
[43:49.840 --> 43:51.280]  Uh, I actually traveled this way.
[43:51.340 --> 43:53.740]  I have one of these, I can put different SIM cards in.
[43:53.740 --> 44:00.660]  And, uh, then I, you put it into your computer and you now have internet via, via the mobile network.
[44:00.920 --> 44:02.240]  And I can go further with that.
[44:02.360 --> 44:05.420]  I can put it in a MiFi device or whatever they call them these days.
[44:05.460 --> 44:12.080]  And I can make, um, a local wireless network from, for wherever I am in the house, uh, using mobile internet.
[44:12.260 --> 44:18.160]  And what's interesting is I found mobile internet to be much faster in, for example, in Tunisia than it is in the Netherlands.
[44:18.440 --> 44:19.480]  Uh, I was impressed.
[44:19.480 --> 44:25.320]  I don't, in the United States, in New York City, my mobile internet is, is faster than my cable modem from Time Warner.
[44:26.300 --> 44:26.700]  Interesting.
[44:26.940 --> 44:28.420]  Which is not supposed to be the case.
[44:28.740 --> 44:32.580]  Did you find this to be very expensive or, uh, time consuming to, to, to get?
[44:33.120 --> 44:34.140]  Time consuming, yes.
[44:34.300 --> 44:35.500]  Cause you, it's prepaid.
[44:35.640 --> 44:36.420]  So you have to refill.
[44:36.660 --> 44:41.840]  There's not much for people like me who are, who are long-term yet short-term visitors, two weeks, three weeks.
[44:42.220 --> 44:44.840]  Uh, so I often had to go back to the shop to refill.
[44:44.980 --> 44:47.420]  There weren't a lot of options to go to a kiosk.
[44:47.900 --> 44:56.500]  Sometimes there were like, you know, fruit stand that you could, behind the fruit, there were SIM cards for sale, but you really had to check a lot of fruit stands, um, for that.
[44:56.680 --> 44:57.020]  Yes.
[44:57.420 --> 44:57.780]  All right.
[44:57.940 --> 45:02.180]  Uh, let's take some phone calls because, uh, we have, uh, I see our, our phone bank is lighting up.
[45:02.640 --> 45:06.040]  Again, phone number 917-580-6020.
[45:06.620 --> 45:08.440]  That's our new temporary number.
[45:08.880 --> 45:09.860]  Let's see if it works.
[45:10.440 --> 45:11.180]  And good evening.
[45:11.360 --> 45:12.240]  You are on off the hook.
[45:13.360 --> 45:14.160]  Is anyone there?
[45:15.880 --> 45:16.960]  I'm hitting all the right buttons.
[45:16.960 --> 45:17.260]  Okay.
[45:17.340 --> 45:18.180]  Well, no one's on that one.
[45:18.220 --> 45:18.700]  Let's try this one.
[45:18.800 --> 45:19.060]  Good evening.
[45:19.160 --> 45:19.780]  You're on off the hook.
[45:20.940 --> 45:22.140]  Oh, I still hear that.
[45:23.180 --> 45:24.300]  No, it's not working.
[45:24.600 --> 45:25.420]  Uh, let's try over here.
[45:25.520 --> 45:25.800]  Good evening.
[45:25.980 --> 45:26.700]  You're on off the hook.
[45:27.500 --> 45:28.220]  Oh, hi.
[45:28.440 --> 45:28.780]  Hi.
[45:28.960 --> 45:29.180]  Yeah.
[45:29.180 --> 45:29.820]  Let me turn the radio.
[45:30.000 --> 45:34.180]  Um, oh, I just wanted to ask a quick question about something you mentioned last week.
[45:34.420 --> 45:40.200]  Did you, you said that if you press star 67, you can have your number blocked.
[45:40.660 --> 45:42.860]  Um, does that work with 800 numbers?
[45:42.940 --> 45:44.540]  Cause I normally have my number blocked.
[45:44.540 --> 45:44.840]  Yeah.
[45:44.920 --> 45:48.620]  It doesn't work with 800 numbers because they use a different technology known as A&I.
[45:48.960 --> 45:54.040]  And, uh, since they're paying for the call that you, uh, you call them and they, they pick up the charge.
[45:54.340 --> 45:58.760]  If there is any charge these days, uh, they're entitled to see that number, but it uses a different technology.
[45:58.980 --> 45:59.700]  It's not caller ID.
[45:59.780 --> 46:06.380]  It's the rationale why they're entitled to see the number, but I understand if they're paying for the call, it is a different kind of technology.
[46:06.640 --> 46:11.320]  Sometimes that technology, uh, uh, falls into play in regular phone calls as well.
[46:11.400 --> 46:19.360]  In other words, you can block your phone number and somehow your phone number is transmitted anyway because A&I is being used.
[46:19.500 --> 46:29.080]  So it's not a surefire way, but usually Star 6-7 followed by a regular phone number, not a toll-free number, and certainly not calling the cops.
[46:29.080 --> 46:30.020]  That's not going to work either.
[46:30.440 --> 46:31.520]  Well, I understand that.
[46:31.700 --> 46:32.440]  It'll block your number.
[46:32.560 --> 46:33.360]  I understand why you call the cops.
[46:33.380 --> 46:36.620]  They would want to know who's calling because it might be an emergency or something like that.
[46:36.880 --> 46:37.760]  That makes sense.
[46:37.760 --> 46:41.120]  But I couldn't understand 800 numbers because, you know, these are businesses.
[46:41.120 --> 46:41.960]  You're calling them.
[46:41.960 --> 46:44.740]  I mean, you don't necessarily want them to know who called.
[46:44.860 --> 46:46.060]  Maybe you don't want their product.
[46:46.080 --> 46:47.740]  You don't want to be harassed or anything.
[46:47.960 --> 46:55.960]  In that case, I would advise calling a regular local phone number rather than the 800 number because then you have a better chance of blocking it with Star 6-7.
[46:56.120 --> 46:56.200]  Rob?
[46:56.420 --> 46:56.640]  Right.
[46:56.800 --> 47:03.360]  Generally speaking, if you got a phone bill for your regular phone line and it was itemized, you could see every phone number you called and what it cost.
[47:03.700 --> 47:05.620]  With an 800 number, it works the other way.
[47:05.680 --> 47:10.700]  So they would get a bill with every number that called to them and the cost of those calls.
[47:11.460 --> 47:13.480]  So, yeah, you're part of their bill.
[47:15.320 --> 47:16.360]  Any other questions?
[47:16.720 --> 47:17.480]  A&I?
[47:17.860 --> 47:19.140]  It's called A&I, yes.
[47:19.540 --> 47:20.580]  Automatic number identification.
[47:20.640 --> 47:21.200]  A&I or A&I.
[47:21.280 --> 47:23.080]  It's automatic number identification, A&I.
[47:23.120 --> 47:23.360]  Ah, okay.
[47:23.500 --> 47:24.280]  Thank you very much.
[47:24.340 --> 47:24.560]  Sure.
[47:24.580 --> 47:31.780]  And the other method that used to be common to call an 800 number without having your own number given out was to just go to a pay telephone.
[47:31.780 --> 47:33.740]  But if you can still find such a thing where you live.
[47:33.740 --> 47:34.100]  Yeah.
[47:34.640 --> 47:37.980]  There's some prepaid phone cards that you can call toll-free numbers with.
[47:38.440 --> 47:39.240]  That's true as well.
[47:39.700 --> 47:39.720]  Yeah.
[47:40.120 --> 47:42.940]  And op diverting where you go through an operator.
[47:43.260 --> 47:46.060]  And sometimes your number is blocked that way, but not always.
[47:46.300 --> 47:49.100]  You know, it's really hard to count on anything these days.
[47:49.500 --> 47:50.420]  Let's take another phone call.
[47:50.660 --> 47:51.060]  Good evening.
[47:51.200 --> 47:51.900]  You're on Off the Hook.
[47:52.560 --> 47:53.340]  Hello, guys.
[47:53.500 --> 47:57.600]  Pleasure to talk with you after all the, you know, phone problems.
[47:57.680 --> 48:01.480]  It's been a while, yes, since we actually had a full bank of phones to play with.
[48:01.480 --> 48:02.740]  So it's good to see that back.
[48:02.920 --> 48:05.200]  I have to say, guys, I'm a huge fan of you guys.
[48:05.460 --> 48:07.920]  I pick up every copy of the magazine.
[48:07.920 --> 48:12.320]  I don't understand anything that's in it, but I read it cover to cover every time.
[48:12.720 --> 48:17.240]  I think just theoretically what you guys are talking about is really on the next level.
[48:18.320 --> 48:25.240]  Not in terms of technology, in terms of really like the social theory and the philosophical aspect of all you guys bring up.
[48:25.240 --> 48:33.400]  You guys need to come up with some kind of manual, or like pamphlets, like a pamphlet series.
[48:34.080 --> 48:49.700]  Because I hear people on some of the other programs on WBAI, and for people who are not within the realm of technology, it's like, you know, stuff that was old news in the hacker world is like, oh my God, news two, three years after the fact.
[48:49.840 --> 48:51.760]  And then five years after that, it hits the mainstream.
[48:52.040 --> 48:52.240]  Yes.
[48:52.240 --> 49:13.080]  And, you know, like, for example, the implication, not the implication, the facts of what William Binney has spelled out at the HOPE conference, and I'm sure before and after that, everyone needs to understand that the fundamental implication of, I'm forgetting the name of the program now,
[49:13.500 --> 49:16.280]  changing wind or stellar wind.
[49:16.480 --> 49:17.060]  Stellar wind.
[49:17.240 --> 49:17.960]  Stellar wind.
[49:18.760 --> 49:25.140]  You know, right off, you know, there's a lot of those kind of things, like, everyone needs to know what stellar wind is, and then let's just take it from there.
[49:25.280 --> 49:28.000]  But we can't keep reinventing the wheel with some of this stuff.
[49:28.120 --> 49:31.480]  It's like, everyone who listens to BAI needs to know what that is.
[49:31.840 --> 49:34.000]  It shouldn't be esoteric just to hackers.
[49:34.180 --> 49:36.100]  Well, thanks for listening and paying attention.
[49:36.320 --> 49:37.200]  It means a lot to us.
[49:37.540 --> 49:38.300]  It means a lot to me.
[49:38.440 --> 49:38.580]  Thank you, guys.
[49:38.580 --> 49:39.180]  All right, take care.
[49:39.180 --> 49:41.580]  Bernie, why don't you tell us quickly what stellar wind is?
[49:42.500 --> 49:52.220]  Well, it is for people that were at the most recent HOPE conference, or they can go on HOPE.net and download his keynote talk.
[49:52.320 --> 49:58.740]  William Binney was a high-ranking cryptologist and mathematician at the National Security Agency for many years.
[49:58.740 --> 50:11.620]  And he resigned over his concerns that the NSA was violating federal law and people's constitutional rights by intercepting their communications.
[50:11.920 --> 50:19.040]  And stellar wind was a system by which – is a system by which the NSA builds – it's kind of like what Facebook does.
[50:19.040 --> 50:20.980]  It builds social networks.
[50:21.260 --> 50:23.240]  It builds – it maps out social networks.
[50:23.240 --> 50:27.940]  Who's communicating with whom, how often, from what locations.
[50:28.440 --> 50:40.980]  And you can – just by doing all this traffic analysis, you can determine an awful lot about people who are organizing politically or maybe revolutionary likewise.
[50:41.400 --> 50:52.980]  I mean it's actually at least as dangerous as people intercepting phone calls for a government to have a bird's-eye view of who's communicating to whom, when, how often, from where.
[50:53.240 --> 51:03.080]  And in proximity of others, it's really – it's a really scary power that the NSA is just taking upon themselves in violation of federal law.
[51:03.160 --> 51:05.600]  And William Binney made – made – went public with that.
[51:05.660 --> 51:08.800]  And he's been persecuted and prosecuted for doing it.
[51:09.440 --> 51:13.040]  As will anybody who brings these things to the public eye.
[51:13.100 --> 51:13.880]  But that's what we're here for.
[51:14.280 --> 51:15.220]  Let's take another phone call.
[51:15.640 --> 51:16.540]  And good evening.
[51:16.560 --> 51:17.700]  You're on Off the Hook on WBAI.
[51:18.380 --> 51:20.740]  Yeah, you were talking about the finding people.
[51:20.740 --> 51:32.020]  I was just wondering, I was just listening to Bernie, if the government can do all this tracking and all this, how come we can't find like missing children or criminals or missing people or things like that?
[51:32.140 --> 51:33.040]  I'm just wondering, you know.
[51:33.080 --> 51:35.000]  Bernie, you want to tackle that quickly?
[51:35.540 --> 51:36.820]  It's kind of off topic.
[51:36.960 --> 51:38.000]  But yes, it can be done.
[51:38.180 --> 51:43.920]  Anybody with a mobile device can typically be found in short order if the government wants to do that.
[51:44.120 --> 51:46.800]  But lost children don't necessarily have a cell phone with them.
[51:47.360 --> 51:48.540]  But it could happen.
[51:49.020 --> 51:50.640]  And I believe lots of people are being found.
[51:50.940 --> 51:51.220]  Yes.
[51:51.260 --> 51:52.440]  Including people who don't want to be found.
[51:52.780 --> 51:53.920]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[51:54.200 --> 51:54.760]  Good evening.
[51:54.920 --> 51:55.500]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:56.700 --> 51:57.400]  Speak up, please.
[51:58.020 --> 51:59.480]  Hello, I'm calling for the show.
[51:59.540 --> 52:00.280]  Yes, come to the phone.
[52:01.000 --> 52:01.780]  I am at the phone.
[52:01.880 --> 52:02.400]  Am I on?
[52:02.480 --> 52:03.620]  You're on the air right now.
[52:04.020 --> 52:04.760]  How are you doing?
[52:05.020 --> 52:06.040]  We're doing just great.
[52:06.320 --> 52:07.660]  The show is really interesting.
[52:07.980 --> 52:08.140]  Thank you.
[52:08.220 --> 52:13.280]  I'd like the fact that one of the guys was saying when he traveled, everybody was calling him and telling him to be safe.
[52:13.280 --> 52:17.540]  You know, that matrix part of America, I think the jig is up where they don't...
[52:17.540 --> 52:24.480]  I think it's to stop people from traveling, making people believe that everybody hates us and everybody who tried to get us and we need to stay safe.
[52:24.700 --> 52:26.780]  So I think it's to stop people from traveling.
[52:26.900 --> 52:29.580]  I think that, you know, that's about up by now.
[52:29.720 --> 52:35.920]  But I like the fact that, you know, a lot of people didn't tell me lately they go to other places and they feel very safe.
[52:36.100 --> 52:37.880]  Not what was advertised over here.
[52:37.940 --> 52:38.500]  You know what I'm saying?
[52:39.120 --> 52:40.700]  So that's all I want to say to you guys.
[52:40.860 --> 52:41.160]  Thank you.
[52:41.160 --> 52:41.720]  All right.
[52:41.840 --> 52:42.080]  Thanks.
[52:42.280 --> 52:43.260]  Thanks for that phone call.
[52:43.900 --> 52:44.040]  Yeah.
[52:44.320 --> 52:44.560]  Yeah.
[52:44.680 --> 52:46.080]  I mean, things can go wrong.
[52:46.260 --> 52:47.160]  They can go wrong.
[52:47.320 --> 52:52.080]  I don't mean to say that everything is great all the time, for example, in Egypt these days.
[52:52.120 --> 53:00.100]  But I think more often things go quite fine, especially you as a human visitor from wherever you may come from.
[53:01.140 --> 53:01.960]  You can go.
[53:02.220 --> 53:02.960]  There are a lot of places.
[53:02.960 --> 53:05.340]  And oftentimes it's the place where everyone tells you not to go.
[53:05.740 --> 53:05.940]  That's true.
[53:05.940 --> 53:07.400]  Mike and I were in Havana, Cuba.
[53:08.060 --> 53:09.840]  I was in Pyongyang, North Korea.
[53:09.980 --> 53:13.040]  Carl and I went to Kosovo and Sarajevo and places like that.
[53:13.420 --> 53:17.940]  And in all cases, it was an eye-opening, marvelous experience.
[53:18.840 --> 53:24.340]  And all the naysayers and people who say it's a very bad idea were proven wrong.
[53:24.480 --> 53:27.680]  And of course, you do have to keep your wits about you.
[53:27.760 --> 53:29.600]  You have to know what to look out for.
[53:30.180 --> 53:31.740]  But also be open.
[53:32.580 --> 53:33.420]  Listen to people.
[53:33.880 --> 53:35.820]  And I think that's 90% of it right there.
[53:36.000 --> 53:42.260]  If you go in there with an open mind and are open and generous to people who talk to you, they'll be the same.
[53:42.460 --> 53:44.320]  I'll tell you, what's strange to see...
[53:44.320 --> 53:45.840]  I mean, let's get into tourism for a second.
[53:46.020 --> 53:50.340]  You go to the pyramids, the pyramids, and there are not that many people around.
[53:50.860 --> 53:51.880]  You can walk.
[53:52.040 --> 53:55.360]  You can be alone, except for the people chasing you with camels and horses.
[53:55.360 --> 53:56.500]  Yeah, they want you to ride camels.
[53:56.860 --> 54:02.620]  But you are one of the few people that's visiting these days, which is sad.
[54:02.860 --> 54:04.100]  Oh, because of the troubles.
[54:04.400 --> 54:04.580]  Sure.
[54:04.760 --> 54:05.900]  The pyramids are suffering.
[54:05.980 --> 54:07.740]  My friend told me people cancel all the time.
[54:07.860 --> 54:10.660]  They have the trips, especially from Europe, because it's easier to get to.
[54:10.760 --> 54:11.140]  It's faster.
[54:11.320 --> 54:14.700]  They cancel that visit to the pyramids within a few weeks' notice.
[54:14.780 --> 54:15.680]  Let me ask you one other thing.
[54:15.680 --> 54:16.960]  You mentioned that you were traveling cheaply.
[54:17.020 --> 54:17.640]  How did you travel?
[54:18.240 --> 54:23.000]  So, I mean, the airfares we can't avoid if we're coming from outside of the country.
[54:23.140 --> 54:24.660]  I mean, there's probably a way to do it by land.
[54:24.720 --> 54:25.280]  There's no train.
[54:25.360 --> 54:25.860]  No.
[54:26.020 --> 54:30.860]  So, I did have to fly in, but everything else was as affordable as possible.
[54:31.360 --> 54:32.600]  I've used couch surfing.
[54:32.800 --> 54:40.580]  In the case of Tunisia and Egypt, I used Airbnb, which is a sort of individuals offering their places.
[54:40.840 --> 54:43.200]  It could be a room or it could be a whole apartment.
[54:43.400 --> 54:48.100]  So, I used this system because it's very fairly priced and you can negotiate and you know what you're going to get.
[54:48.200 --> 54:50.700]  And you can read people's reputations, their reviews.
[54:50.700 --> 54:53.540]  People have written about each place and why they like it.
[54:53.540 --> 54:55.360]  And so, that was one method.
[54:55.540 --> 55:05.720]  And in each country beforehand, because of Twitter, because of internet, I've studied in the Netherlands, I have, I know people, I have contacts that would be there to sort of receive me.
[55:05.720 --> 55:08.420]  Even if it was just for a day or two, they would take care of me.
[55:08.420 --> 55:14.460]  I reached out to Egyptian photographers who I knew from Twitter and said, you know, would you like to work together?
[55:14.580 --> 55:18.380]  Maybe I can pay you with some of the money I've raised and you stick with me.
[55:18.500 --> 55:19.940]  Make sure I don't step in a hole.
[55:20.440 --> 55:21.300]  And they did.
[55:21.420 --> 55:23.280]  And they came out and we became extremely good friends.
[55:23.380 --> 55:24.360]  I miss them a lot, actually.
[55:24.520 --> 55:25.340]  There are holes to step in.
[55:25.340 --> 55:32.500]  And I remember when I was in Mongolia, big gaping holes in the sidewalk at, actually, an off-the-hook listener was very kind and pointing out, don't step in that.
[55:32.740 --> 55:33.460]  And I didn't.
[55:34.420 --> 55:35.500]  Guys, we're out of time.
[55:35.640 --> 55:37.080]  But any final thoughts?
[55:37.220 --> 55:39.380]  Because the end of the world is coming on Friday.
[55:39.500 --> 55:41.020]  I don't know if you guys marked that on your calendar.
[55:41.020 --> 55:44.160]  If you have a hacker calendar, it's right there in a big black square.
[55:45.360 --> 55:46.000]  Any thoughts?
[55:46.200 --> 55:46.720]  Final thoughts?
[55:46.720 --> 55:51.640]  I'm not going this year, but I'm curious who's going to the Hacker Congress in this room because it's coming up.
[55:51.840 --> 55:53.140]  The one in a couple of days?
[55:53.160 --> 55:54.500]  I don't think anyone in this room is going.
[55:54.640 --> 55:55.100]  I'm just checking.
[55:55.240 --> 55:57.460]  But it is taking place in Hamburg in Germany.
[55:57.660 --> 55:59.300]  The 27th, I think it starts.
[55:59.460 --> 56:00.520]  Is there still time to buy tickets?
[56:00.700 --> 56:01.320]  I guess so.
[56:01.560 --> 56:04.020]  Ccc.de is the web address for that.
[56:05.020 --> 56:07.560]  Bernie, good to hear from you on Skype down there in Philly.
[56:07.660 --> 56:07.800]  Thank you.
[56:08.000 --> 56:08.240]  Thank you.
[56:08.380 --> 56:10.280]  And Chico, welcome to this country.
[56:10.340 --> 56:12.200]  I hope you enjoy the rest of your visit from Brazil.
[56:12.420 --> 56:12.680]  Cool.
[56:12.760 --> 56:13.580]  It's great to be here.
[56:13.920 --> 56:16.700]  And Bicycle Mark, stay safe in New York City because I hear that.
[56:16.720 --> 56:17.500]  It's dangerous as well.
[56:17.720 --> 56:18.200]  Thank you.
[56:18.400 --> 56:18.620]  All right.
[56:18.680 --> 56:19.580]  We are out of time.
[56:20.580 --> 56:24.600]  And we'll be back again next week on the loneliest day of the year, December 26th.
[56:25.740 --> 56:27.420]  That's assuming the world doesn't end this Friday.
[56:28.040 --> 56:28.380]  All right.
[56:30.100 --> 56:32.020]  Shout out to AutoJack for this piece.
[56:32.620 --> 56:33.260]  Have a good night.
[57:15.340 --> 57:17.700]  It's Christmas time.
[57:19.000 --> 57:21.880]  Deck the halls with shallow lies.
[57:22.380 --> 57:27.660]  Kill a tree and manalize your neighborhood with lights.
[57:49.820 --> 57:50.940]  Time
[58:18.280 --> 58:22.400]  to make them think it's someone else.
[58:24.930 --> 58:27.230]  It's Christmas time.
[58:28.350 --> 58:31.290]  Time to watch for flying deer.
[58:31.710 --> 58:38.090]  Time to worship spiteful gods that want you to drink their blood.
[58:38.410 --> 58:39.890]  Here comes the fat man.
[59:13.640 --> 59:18.960]  And you're tuned to WBAI in New York.
[59:18.960 --> 59:22.260]  And WBAI.org.
[59:23.060 --> 59:25.680]  It's 7-59-16.
[59:26.040 --> 59:28.460]  And at 8 p.m.
[59:28.460 --> 59:31.480]  we will be hearing the personal computer show.
[59:31.740 --> 59:35.660]  How many decades are you guys up now?
[59:36.200 --> 59:37.120]  I mean, what is it?
[59:37.280 --> 59:38.500]  Holy crap.
[59:38.780 --> 59:39.560]  30 years.
[59:39.860 --> 59:41.000]  Well, that's nothing.
[59:41.000 --> 59:42.540]  I've been here for 34 years.
[59:42.640 --> 59:42.780]  Oh.
[59:43.760 --> 59:44.080]  Yeah.
[59:44.080 --> 59:44.720]  Anyway.
[59:45.260 --> 59:49.340]  Yes, and we're all going to have a party on the 21st, which marks the end of the world.
[59:50.580 --> 59:51.920]  That's befitting that.
[59:52.640 --> 01:00:01.740]  And not only that, I think it can be said publicly now, WBAI is moving from this rat hole to a new gopher hole.
[01:00:01.940 --> 01:00:03.820]  And we shall see how that works out.
[01:00:04.160 --> 01:00:04.640]  Okay.
[01:00:04.640 --> 01:00:05.540]  Here we go.
[01:00:06.500 --> 01:00:09.000]  You're tuned to WBAI in New York.
[01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:13.760]  And we hear next the personal computer show.