[00:00.000 --> 00:01.920]  Hi, my name is Elsa.
[00:02.180 --> 00:06.900]  And I always have my radio tune to 99.5 FM WBAI.
[00:07.040 --> 00:13.240]  When I visit my family in Paramaribo, Suriname, I listen on the web at WBAI.org.
[00:26.440 --> 00:37.480]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI in New York.
[00:37.760 --> 00:40.060]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:40.540 --> 00:41.500]  Time for Off the Hook.
[00:49.160 --> 00:52.060]  It's ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:53.060 --> 00:55.040]  I cut myself while shaving.
[00:55.620 --> 00:57.600]  Now I can't make a cough.
[00:58.280 --> 01:02.920]  We couldn't get much worse, it would.
[01:03.160 --> 01:05.820]  Bum-diddly-bump, but the best it's made the worst.
[01:06.420 --> 01:08.320]  I hope that's understood.
[01:08.540 --> 01:09.400]  Bum-diddly-bump!
[02:34.560 --> 02:35.920]  And the very good evening to everybody.
[02:35.980 --> 02:37.200]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:37.300 --> 02:40.400]  Emmanuel Golsini with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:41.240 --> 02:43.260]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:43.520 --> 02:44.080]  Good evening.
[02:44.080 --> 02:44.560]  Rob T.
[02:44.680 --> 02:45.140]  Firefly.
[02:45.320 --> 02:45.720]  Good evening.
[02:46.140 --> 02:46.620]  Mitch Altman.
[02:46.880 --> 02:47.360]  Hello.
[02:47.820 --> 02:48.380]  Bernie S.
[02:49.040 --> 02:50.120]  Hello from Philadelphia.
[02:50.980 --> 02:55.140]  And this is going to be a rather sad show.
[02:55.140 --> 03:04.000]  I'm sure many of you have heard because this has actually been something that has been talked about in the mainstream media.
[03:04.000 --> 03:21.800]  We lost somebody that was extremely significant to our community, somebody who was a very bright, shining star in the world of the internet, in the world of hackers, in the world of just smart, amazing people, of which we know so many.
[03:21.800 --> 03:29.880]  Aaron Schwartz, as I'm sure you've heard from the mainstream newscast, took his life on Friday.
[03:32.700 --> 03:38.820]  And it's stunning, really, speaking personally, because I only met the guy once.
[03:39.020 --> 03:43.840]  I met him here, in fact, on Off the Hook in August of last year, just a few months ago.
[03:45.760 --> 03:54.880]  And he's one of these people, and I'm sure we've all met people like this, that just immediately grab you as far as, wow, this is an interesting person.
[03:54.940 --> 03:55.780]  This is somebody who has ideas.
[03:55.880 --> 03:56.940]  This is somebody who has spirit.
[03:57.080 --> 04:00.980]  This is someone I like to get to know better and have conversations with.
[04:01.420 --> 04:06.680]  And, of course, so many of us in the community knew him so much better and talked to him so many more times.
[04:07.780 --> 04:14.180]  And to have something like this happen, just out of the blue, so it seemed, it's a punch in the gut.
[04:14.280 --> 04:17.880]  And it's something that we're all coming to terms with.
[04:17.880 --> 04:31.340]  And this hour, this hour, we're going to be devoting to Aaron, to what he stood for, what he has accomplished, and also what claimed him.
[04:31.940 --> 04:46.500]  Whether we believe that to be the charges that were being filed against him, the unfair charges, or the depression that drove him over the edge.
[04:48.280 --> 04:58.140]  And we have people here that have had quite a bit of experience, both personally and in the community, talking about such things.
[04:58.160 --> 05:02.280]  And I'm glad we have the people here to talk about this.
[05:02.600 --> 05:04.480]  Rob, you're the one who brought him to the studio.
[05:04.660 --> 05:06.720]  You're the one who reached out to him in August.
[05:06.880 --> 05:10.860]  And I want to thank you for that, because without that, I never would have met him in the first place.
[05:11.080 --> 05:13.620]  And I would have realized just what an incredible person he was.
[05:14.580 --> 05:15.220]  Yes, indeed.
[05:15.860 --> 05:17.040]  I'm grateful for that, too.
[05:18.000 --> 05:19.460]  I got wind that he'd be in town.
[05:19.600 --> 05:25.020]  He was doing a talk, I think that week, about SOPA and about what he had accomplished.
[05:25.200 --> 05:30.840]  And so I thought it'd be a good idea to have him on the show to talk about that, which is, of course, a very important subject.
[05:30.900 --> 05:33.600]  But also, just the opportunity to talk to him.
[05:33.660 --> 05:39.100]  I mean, I had the opportunity to thank him for RSS, which so many of us use.
[05:40.440 --> 05:44.260]  And there is just so much wrapped up in what he was doing, who he was.
[05:44.260 --> 05:48.100]  And I had hoped that we'd get the chance to speak with him again.
[05:48.120 --> 05:49.580]  And now that won't happen.
[05:49.860 --> 05:50.000]  Yeah.
[05:50.340 --> 05:52.260]  And somebody...
[05:52.260 --> 05:55.680]  I mean, this is somebody who was responsible for the creation of RSS.
[05:56.080 --> 05:56.920]  Yeah, when he was 14.
[05:57.140 --> 05:57.820]  14 years old.
[05:57.820 --> 06:08.500]  And helped with Reddit, helped get that, his company merged with Reddit, and it wouldn't be the same without his input, obviously.
[06:09.060 --> 06:14.240]  And so many other things, so many things that will never happen now as a result of this tragedy.
[06:15.500 --> 06:23.900]  And then to counter that with this guy being thought of as a criminal by authorities that really had no clue.
[06:24.060 --> 06:25.720]  We'll get into that perhaps a bit later.
[06:25.840 --> 06:34.160]  I don't want to take away from his life by focusing on the idiots who really weighed him down.
[06:34.880 --> 06:40.220]  And, you know, I hesitate to point the finger and say, this is why, this is the reason, it's your fault.
[06:40.340 --> 06:47.320]  And I know there's a lot of people are doing that, and maybe rightfully so, but it's a combination of factors.
[06:47.640 --> 06:51.140]  But at best, at best, it sure didn't help.
[06:51.660 --> 06:52.080]  Yeah.
[06:52.260 --> 06:57.680]  And that's the end result of what happened with a suicide.
[06:57.900 --> 07:02.040]  Well, none of us will ever really know, because the only one who could have told us is no longer with us.
[07:02.040 --> 07:02.540]  Right.
[07:02.840 --> 07:05.580]  And as far as we know, there was no note left.
[07:06.080 --> 07:20.140]  You know, like so many things in life, it could be just a spur-of-the-moment thing, just a moment of feeling crappy, and just a decision made in that particular moment.
[07:20.300 --> 07:28.040]  What I'd like to do, before we start actually talking amongst ourselves, go back to August of last year.
[07:28.040 --> 07:35.760]  So recently, I remember him sitting across from me, seeing him for the first time, hanging out afterwards for a little bit, having all kinds of conversations.
[07:36.600 --> 07:42.640]  But let's hear a little bit of what we talked about on the air, August 15th of 2012, here on Off the Hook.
[07:42.800 --> 07:43.380]  So, okay.
[07:43.760 --> 07:45.040]  So SOPA is dead.
[07:45.240 --> 07:45.740]  Can we say that?
[07:45.800 --> 07:46.300]  SOPA is dead?
[07:46.980 --> 07:47.620]  Yeah, amazingly.
[07:47.620 --> 07:48.440]  I think it's true.
[07:48.640 --> 07:49.860]  But you know there's going to be another SOPA.
[07:49.960 --> 07:51.640]  There's going to be something else that they try.
[07:51.880 --> 07:54.680]  How are they going to, you know, try and get past these people?
[07:54.680 --> 07:57.300]  Yeah, they've tried to bring it back in a couple of ways.
[07:57.460 --> 08:00.860]  And so far, I think what's happened is there's been a sea change in awareness.
[08:01.060 --> 08:07.440]  It's not like it used to be, where people thought, oh, you know, we'll just be on the internet, and government can't stop us because we'll use encryption, right?
[08:07.560 --> 08:09.980]  Now people realize this stuff matters, and they're paying attention.
[08:10.320 --> 08:18.500]  And so we saw a couple months ago, there was this cybersecurity bill, where they thought, oh, there's all these cyber criminals, so we need cybersecurity to cyber stop them or something.
[08:20.860 --> 08:27.160]  They've already tried this, though, because, you know, SOPA hasn't been dead that long, only a few months, but they've already tried to resurrect it.
[08:27.460 --> 08:28.580]  Yeah, no, it was amazing.
[08:28.740 --> 08:31.500]  They gave a big speech upon introduction of this bill.
[08:31.620 --> 08:34.040]  I want to be very clear, you know, because they do talk like that.
[08:34.140 --> 08:36.220]  I want to be very clear, this bill is not SOPA.
[08:36.440 --> 08:37.620]  It's not anything like SOPA.
[08:37.740 --> 08:39.360]  It doesn't have copyright in it anywhere.
[08:39.880 --> 08:41.440]  You should not be worried about this bill.
[08:41.720 --> 08:42.800]  Go worry about the other bills.
[08:42.960 --> 08:47.960]  And, you know, they thought, oh, if we just tell them it's not SOPA, they'll suddenly stop paying attention.
[08:48.160 --> 08:52.100]  But in fact, it didn't work, and people paid attention, and we managed to get that bill killed, too.
[08:52.100 --> 08:52.540]  Uh-huh.
[08:52.620 --> 08:53.900]  But they're not going to stop.
[08:54.060 --> 08:54.960]  They're going to keep trying.
[08:55.140 --> 09:03.400]  And eventually, they're going to figure out some method of getting around people's backs or maybe hiding it in something else.
[09:04.160 --> 09:06.600]  Are we prepared for those kind of tactics?
[09:06.940 --> 09:10.040]  Well, I think the question is not, you know, can we keep stopping it?
[09:10.120 --> 09:11.020]  Can we keep stopping it?
[09:11.100 --> 09:13.940]  But is there something positive we can do to move the ball forward?
[09:13.940 --> 09:15.560]  So we get some stuff that we want.
[09:15.700 --> 09:28.620]  We get maybe DMCA reform, or we get compulsory licensing or something that will actually solve these problems instead of, you know, Hollywood's attempts to continue to criminalize people, to continue to increase punishments, and not actually accomplish anything positive.
[09:28.860 --> 09:29.120]  Yeah.
[09:29.220 --> 09:42.400]  I think another effect of all of this, another really good effect, and a great precedent that's been set, is since it was basically the users of the internet that killed SOPA, and we've all, we all have experienced this now and have seen it happen and have gone from a mindset where,
[09:42.760 --> 09:51.800]  okay, this stuff is all in the hands of these people who don't understand anything, and there's nothing that can be done about it, to, hey, we beat this thing once, and when the next bad thing comes around, we can beat that too.
[09:52.140 --> 10:04.620]  So it's really, it's really sort of an empowering feeling to have seen this all happen and think, okay, well, next time, maybe it won't be so terrible, because maybe we'll, we'll be able to rally our troops and, and, and do what's right again.
[10:04.800 --> 10:07.600]  Yeah, I mean, that's the most amazing thing is that people pulled this off.
[10:07.740 --> 10:11.320]  You know, I talked to staffers in Congress, and even members of Congress and senators.
[10:11.600 --> 10:14.920]  And when you bring up SOPA, they just, their eyes go wide.
[10:14.960 --> 10:17.160]  And they were like, I've never seen anything like it.
[10:17.340 --> 10:19.120]  It's totally, you know, it totally terrified them.
[10:19.240 --> 10:20.520]  They were completely scared.
[10:20.640 --> 10:23.900]  We had a real impact in a way that I think nobody thought was possible.
[10:24.320 --> 10:28.880]  You know, even Chris Dodd, a former senator and head of the plan to pass SOPA, the guy who dreamed the whole thing up.
[10:28.880 --> 10:30.040]  He's the head of the MPAA, right?
[10:30.040 --> 10:33.700]  He's now the head of the MPAA, and their chief lobbyist and invented the bill and tried to get it passed.
[10:34.140 --> 10:42.440]  You know, basically, my, my chief nemesis, even he said he'd never seen anything like this in his 50 years, you know, watching politics, he was completely blown away by it.
[10:43.660 --> 10:49.040]  And that was from August 15th of last year, when Aaron Schwartz was here in our studios.
[10:49.980 --> 10:58.600]  And talking about SOPA, something that he, he fought very vigorously, and helped win, helped win that particular battle.
[10:59.720 --> 11:08.540]  And I just remember that was that was a real turning point, because we're not used to winning, you know, not used to, to battles actually going our way.
[11:09.260 --> 11:14.500]  And in this particular case, we can claim that, that something was changed.
[11:14.540 --> 11:16.880]  As he said there, Congress were, they were blown away.
[11:17.020 --> 11:30.080]  Everyone was blown away, because he helped, a number of people helped, but I think his, his, his spirit that really sort of personified the entire thing and made it a victory worth relishing for a while.
[11:30.180 --> 11:33.360]  But again, he knew better than anybody that there would be more fights ahead.
[11:34.360 --> 11:38.400]  But these, these are the kinds of fights I think that Aaron enjoyed.
[11:39.060 --> 11:51.540]  Whereas the fight against him, where he was facing prison time, for doing something which I would imagine, at worst could be thought of as a harmless prank.
[11:53.760 --> 11:55.280]  That's something he didn't relish as much.
[11:55.280 --> 12:00.760]  That's something that, I'm sure Bernie, you can probably speak to this, because you actually served time in prison.
[12:01.040 --> 12:05.560]  And you actually were facing all kinds of horrible things for something that victimized nobody.
[12:06.660 --> 12:15.440]  The things that go through your head, facing, facing that kind of, it's nothing short of torture, I don't think.
[12:15.440 --> 12:24.620]  It's the uncertainty, Emmanuel, of your fate, in the hands of really a government agency, the U.S.
[12:24.960 --> 12:45.940]  Department of Justice, who has virtually unlimited resources to walk you into a cage for a long time, a physical metal cage, and brand you as a felon, which most people think are dangerous people, which many felons are, but a lot of felons are not.
[12:46.920 --> 12:52.400]  Even if, you know, especially if they were charged and convicted of something that the government even admitted there were no victims in.
[12:53.860 --> 13:13.840]  I think Aaron was, nobody can read what was in his mind, but clearly he was very troubled that he could not work out a plea agreement with the Department of Justice Justice and learned two days before his death that they would not accept any offer that did not involve prison time or branding him,
[13:14.080 --> 13:15.540]  and branding him as felon.
[13:16.120 --> 13:17.580]  And I think he felt trapped.
[13:17.960 --> 13:20.980]  And I have been there.
[13:22.440 --> 13:23.740]  I know how he felt.
[13:24.460 --> 13:28.020]  And I felt I was at my end of my road, too.
[13:31.080 --> 13:37.200]  It's hard to describe to anybody who hasn't been through it, but it's indescribable.
[13:38.540 --> 13:44.100]  And of course, as you say, you know, nobody really knows what you're going through.
[13:44.600 --> 13:45.860]  But we're all individuals.
[13:45.860 --> 13:46.580]  We're all unique.
[13:46.720 --> 13:49.900]  And we all have different ways of dealing with problems.
[13:49.900 --> 13:53.020]  And we can't always read how other people are dealing.
[13:53.020 --> 14:07.480]  And in Aaron's case, this tremendous pressure that was placed upon him was certainly the breaking point of whatever was going through his head at the time.
[14:07.520 --> 14:10.640]  And as we said, he suffered from depression in the past.
[14:11.160 --> 14:16.000]  And to face something as horrible as prison... Now, let's be honest.
[14:16.100 --> 14:20.120]  He was being threatened with, I think, 35 years in prison.
[14:20.260 --> 14:22.520]  I don't think anybody expected him to get 35 years in prison.
[14:22.520 --> 14:31.340]  But the plea agreement that I believe the federal government was pursuing was that he served some time in prison and maybe even something as short as six months.
[14:31.720 --> 14:32.900]  Doesn't sound like much.
[14:33.060 --> 14:33.960]  It's a lot.
[14:34.080 --> 14:34.700]  It's a lot.
[14:34.840 --> 14:43.700]  I mean, for what I went through, which was nothing, a day or two in the tombs here in New York, that was torture.
[14:43.700 --> 14:48.280]  But imagine six months of that in some other environment.
[14:48.280 --> 14:49.560]  And imagine being...
[14:49.560 --> 14:55.900]  facing more uncertainty and just being castigated in that way when you know what your motives were.
[14:56.000 --> 15:05.220]  You know that you want to be doing more interesting things rather than fighting just to stay free and not be imprisoned by idiots who don't understand.
[15:06.240 --> 15:08.840]  Sometimes that pressure is just too much to bear.
[15:09.020 --> 15:09.180]  Rob?
[15:09.180 --> 15:29.020]  And we've seen that happen with people in our community, so many people in our community, too many people in our community, where you're not only locked up with an uncertain future, but you know that if the one certainty you have is that the people who have you in prison want to keep you there and want to make an example of you for this horribly scary thing you did,
[15:29.120 --> 15:30.720]  which in the end victimized no one.
[15:30.720 --> 15:40.720]  We've seen that with Bernie, we've seen that with so many other people, where you just know that they have all the power and they want to exert it.
[15:40.780 --> 15:44.860]  They want to put you through things just because of what they're afraid of.
[15:44.980 --> 15:47.760]  And that's not a position that I would wish on anyone.
[15:48.020 --> 15:55.780]  Would anyone like to briefly just describe what it was he was accused of, what it was he actually was alleged to have done, Mike?
[15:55.780 --> 15:56.880]  Sure.
[15:57.100 --> 16:22.220]  So as far as I understand it, there's this system called JSTOR, which is a bunch of academic journals are in this thing called JSTOR, and you can go on it and read academic articles, except that you and I can't do it because it is only accessible either at a very high per article fee or through some educational institution,
[16:22.220 --> 16:24.620]  which has paid a lot of money to be in it.
[16:24.620 --> 16:28.760]  And the interesting thing about JSTOR is this money, it doesn't go to the authors of these articles.
[16:28.760 --> 16:30.300]  It just goes to JSTOR.
[16:30.880 --> 16:52.700]  So what Aaron allegedly did was he put a laptop in a closet at MIT, which has access to JSTOR, and just started downloading as much of this academic knowledge as he could, presumably, possibly with the plan to redistribute it, but really just getting his hands on it.
[16:52.700 --> 16:54.960]  And it's meant to be freely available.
[16:55.120 --> 16:58.540]  The fact that JSTOR charged for it is academic.
[16:58.840 --> 17:01.340]  It was... the authors certainly wanted it to be freely available.
[17:01.340 --> 17:05.000]  It was written with that in mind, and he was, I guess, liberating that information.
[17:05.620 --> 17:08.340]  And I believe JSTOR did not want to press charges.
[17:10.860 --> 17:17.700]  MIT, shamefully, didn't back down nearly as much as they could have, and I think that definitely hurt.
[17:18.000 --> 17:24.520]  And of course, the federal government just went after him, guns blazing, as if he was some kind of a master criminal.
[17:24.740 --> 17:24.820]  Rob?
[17:24.820 --> 17:31.120]  Yeah, and it's important to point out that Aaron wasn't breaking into anything through this, because he had access to JSTOR through MIT legitimately.
[17:32.040 --> 17:36.480]  So this is, like, nothing was, as far as I know it, nothing was falsified.
[17:36.480 --> 17:43.020]  He was just using the access which he was given to a higher degree than perhaps they thought.
[17:43.020 --> 17:58.620]  Well, I think, you know, to Aaron it was just a form of sparring with a nemesis, as he calls them, somebody who doesn't get it, somebody who wants to control information and attach unreasonable fees and things like that.
[17:58.920 --> 18:07.560]  And he was all about making things accessible to people and basically preserving freedom of speech, freedom of choice.
[18:08.380 --> 18:13.840]  And it was a symbolic act, but it was met with a very, very real reaction.
[18:14.000 --> 18:14.140]  Mitch?
[18:14.500 --> 18:21.780]  Well, and isn't it the case now that anyone can download articles on JSTOR for free?
[18:22.000 --> 18:22.240]  Yeah.
[18:22.680 --> 18:23.360]  Certainly not.
[18:23.480 --> 18:24.320]  It's expensive.
[18:24.960 --> 18:25.600]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[18:26.580 --> 18:35.820]  To address your question, what he was actually accused of is federal wire fraud and federal computer fraud.
[18:37.520 --> 18:44.720]  specifically unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer and recklessly damaging a protected computer.
[18:45.220 --> 18:47.640]  But as far as I know, no computer was damaged.
[18:47.640 --> 18:51.240]  It may have overloaded the JSTOR servers for a period of time.
[18:51.980 --> 19:08.860]  And the wire fraud and computer fraud, I believe, just pertains to his using a fictitious name online, which we have all done, just like Gary Host, which G Host is an inside joke ghost, as a user name.
[19:09.240 --> 19:11.920]  Again, he was affiliated with the M.A.T.
[19:11.920 --> 19:14.660]  and had legal access to the documents.
[19:14.880 --> 19:33.340]  But downloading so many of them and using a name that was not his to do that, apparently merited multiple felony counts, which, if you add them up as consecutive, could have earned him 35 years in prison and a fine of up to a million dollars.
[19:34.000 --> 19:38.400]  And that's what the government was holding over his head in order to make him buckle and plead guilty.
[19:39.180 --> 19:45.620]  And I think it's worth pointing out that now that JSTOR's opened up, there's still like a limited amount of articles that you can access for free.
[19:45.760 --> 19:46.520]  I think it's three.
[19:47.340 --> 19:47.840]  All right.
[19:47.840 --> 19:57.220]  What I'd like to do now is go back 12 years to something from our friends at WBEZ in Chicago.
[19:58.340 --> 20:03.340]  This is a part of an interview with Aaron Schwartz back then.
[20:04.360 --> 20:08.320]  Aaron Schwartz is a high school sophomore who lives on Chicago's North Shore.
[20:08.680 --> 20:10.260]  But he isn't your typical kid.
[20:10.860 --> 20:15.440]  Aaron's just 14 years old and he happens to be one of the most respected computer minds around.
[20:16.380 --> 20:21.300]  Aaron is one of a select group of people working to develop the next phase of the World Wide Web.
[20:21.940 --> 20:26.020]  If you log on to Aaron's website, you'll find out about his involvement in SWAG.
[20:26.420 --> 20:29.380]  That's an acronym for the Semantic Web Agreement Group.
[20:29.380 --> 20:33.440]  You'll also find out more about his personal philosophy of unschooling.
[20:33.940 --> 20:35.720]  Aaron calls it schoolyard subversion.
[20:36.320 --> 20:39.200]  Last year, MIT recognized Aaron's computer brilliance.
[20:39.400 --> 20:46.140]  The university selected his website as one of the 10 best non-commercial websites developed by someone 18 or younger.
[20:47.100 --> 20:50.120]  Veteran technology reporter Lou Cook caught up with Aaron recently.
[20:50.340 --> 20:54.300]  They talked about his computer exploits and something called the W3C.
[20:54.840 --> 20:56.740]  Aaron began with a simple definition.
[20:56.740 --> 21:06.160]  Well, the W3C is the World Wide Web Consortium, which was started by Tim Berner's lead to sort of carry out the work of the web, to bring it to its full potential is their motto.
[21:06.620 --> 21:20.600]  And so they maintain the standards that they've already written, but they also do things like the Semantic Web, which is built on creating new standards and doing research for really updating the web and making it something that it really isn't, but that they want it to be.
[21:21.700 --> 21:24.440]  Okay, so it's a forward-looking development.
[21:24.800 --> 21:35.480]  Yeah, it's really like an organization with multiple people and what they call working groups to really build different parts of it and develop it and move it, you know, move it forward, move it into the future.
[21:35.480 --> 21:38.120]  All right, let's move into the future.
[21:38.980 --> 21:40.000]  You're 14.
[21:41.220 --> 21:49.720]  Give me a scenario of what is likely to be doing on the web, on the internet, two years from now.
[21:50.000 --> 21:52.700]  And then, I mean, two years from now, you'll be 16.
[21:53.040 --> 22:02.440]  And then let's look out five years from now, which I think is probably almost as far as you can reasonably get, and when you'll be 19.
[22:02.860 --> 22:05.880]  So what's it going to be like two years from now?
[22:06.940 --> 22:13.340]  Two years from now, it's, you know, often it's said it's harder to predict the short-term future than the long-term future.
[22:13.600 --> 22:24.420]  But, you know, I think what we're going to see is slowly moving towards the Semantic Web and slowly moving to what's called the two-way web, where users of the web can really write their own web pages and really take part.
[22:24.460 --> 22:31.720]  And so it's not just a passive medium where you sit and read what other people have written, but really everyone can get a space on the web and something to write.
[22:31.940 --> 22:35.680]  And I think we'll see much more development in the two-way web in the short term.
[22:37.000 --> 22:42.100]  Now, let's go out, when you're 19, five years from now, what's it going to be?
[22:42.660 --> 22:46.620]  Well, I mean, I really hope we have something closer to the Semantic Web.
[22:46.740 --> 22:55.620]  I think the first thing we'll start to see happen is, with search engines right now, you can only ask one question of the web, which is, what pages have this word in it?
[22:55.620 --> 23:03.660]  And so I think, you know, in five years, maybe we'll start being able to ask new questions, like, what documents has Aaron written recently?
[23:03.660 --> 23:08.120]  Or what new articles are there about, you know, about school or about education?
[23:08.520 --> 23:13.020]  And we'll be able to have the web give answers to that and send emails when something new comes up.
[23:15.220 --> 23:17.780]  And that just blows me away.
[23:18.640 --> 23:30.640]  Hearing a 14-year-old Aaron Schwartz, how bright that kid was, how filled with potential, and the tragic end that we all know about now.
[23:31.500 --> 23:42.740]  Joining us on the phone is our friend Virgil Griffith from California, a good friend of Aaron, and somebody that has the same kind of spirit, I think.
[23:42.960 --> 23:43.640]  Virgil, are you with us?
[23:44.240 --> 23:44.860]  Yeah, I'm here.
[23:46.080 --> 23:51.500]  So, you know, for years, I know you were trying to introduce Aaron to me.
[23:51.800 --> 23:56.020]  And I know that when you came to New York, it was Aaron that you'd stay with.
[23:56.020 --> 24:00.340]  And I just, I'm trying to picture the two of you conspiring and thinking together.
[24:00.340 --> 24:06.100]  And boy, the trouble that you could get into and just the amazing things you could accomplish.
[24:08.820 --> 24:09.780]  It must...
[24:10.380 --> 24:14.860]  We're still trying to process it here, but I can't even imagine what it must be like for you.
[24:15.600 --> 24:17.520]  No, it's been...
[24:17.840 --> 24:20.080]  No, actually, it was really...
[24:20.080 --> 24:21.420]  No, it was sad.
[24:21.600 --> 24:24.140]  I actually read about it first in the New York Times.
[24:25.380 --> 24:25.740]  Right.
[24:26.040 --> 24:27.280]  And I was just like, what?
[24:27.580 --> 24:27.900]  You know?
[24:28.760 --> 24:31.940]  And, I don't know, it actually was kind of fitting that I read about it at the Times.
[24:32.180 --> 24:33.100]  Because, I mean, like...
[24:33.100 --> 24:34.160]  I mean, because I would always read...
[24:34.160 --> 24:39.120]  I mean, I would first hear about things about Aaron from, like, the news.
[24:39.420 --> 24:41.840]  So, I used to subscribe to, like, Aaron's blog.
[24:43.060 --> 24:44.560]  But then I emailed them.
[24:44.720 --> 24:45.820]  You know, I'd done it for, like, a few months.
[24:45.940 --> 24:52.120]  Then I emailed them saying that I was unsubscribing from his blog, because I didn't actually need a separate...
[24:52.120 --> 24:55.680]  I said because it was redundant with all my other news sources.
[24:55.840 --> 24:58.780]  Because everything he did made me some other news channel.
[24:58.920 --> 25:00.840]  So, I didn't actually need to subscribe to his blog.
[25:02.920 --> 25:03.320]  So...
[25:03.320 --> 25:03.660]  Yeah.
[25:03.860 --> 25:07.760]  I was looking at his website, and it is filled with all kinds of interesting things.
[25:07.760 --> 25:08.340]  It's still...
[25:08.340 --> 25:09.000]  It's still up.
[25:09.160 --> 25:10.580]  It's still, I think, untouched.
[25:10.980 --> 25:11.460]  Yeah.
[25:11.720 --> 25:12.900]  AaronSW.com.
[25:14.100 --> 25:14.580]  Yeah.
[25:14.580 --> 25:14.900]  And...
[25:15.800 --> 25:16.280]  Yeah.
[25:17.740 --> 25:28.780]  Is there any kind of story of a particular bit of mischief or creativity that you might remember?
[25:29.520 --> 25:30.000]  Yeah.
[25:30.000 --> 25:30.060]  Sure.
[25:30.220 --> 25:31.020]  Well, I mean, so...
[25:31.020 --> 25:32.340]  There were a few ones.
[25:32.540 --> 25:33.000]  So, I mean...
[25:33.000 --> 25:34.500]  So, I remember...
[25:34.500 --> 25:35.240]  Okay.
[25:35.240 --> 25:36.040]  So, what is it?
[25:36.520 --> 25:37.240]  So, um...
[25:37.980 --> 25:41.280]  So, Aaron wanted to re-download the PACER database.
[25:41.640 --> 25:43.420]  You know, because the thing he got...
[25:43.880 --> 25:44.440]  He got...
[25:44.440 --> 25:45.600]  I don't think he got arrested.
[25:45.760 --> 25:47.340]  Anyway, he got raided once for it.
[25:47.540 --> 25:47.940]  And...
[25:47.940 --> 25:49.260]  But he only got like...
[25:49.260 --> 25:50.680]  He only downloaded like a third of the database.
[25:51.160 --> 25:51.640]  Um...
[25:51.640 --> 25:54.300]  But he basically got away with like a slap on the wrist.
[25:54.840 --> 25:55.060]  And he...
[25:55.060 --> 25:57.100]  And he told me, Virgil, I...
[25:57.580 --> 26:00.640]  I got a new free trial to the PACER database.
[26:20.180 --> 26:20.660]  Um...
[26:20.660 --> 26:22.800]  And so, I was like, Aaron, well, you know, um...
[26:22.800 --> 26:23.820]  Don't go around charging...
[26:23.820 --> 26:25.540]  Charging hundreds of thousands of dollars on my card.
[26:25.580 --> 26:26.800]  He's like, no, I promise I will.
[26:26.900 --> 26:27.860]  I'm like, okay, here you go.
[26:27.940 --> 26:28.440]  Here's the card.
[26:29.180 --> 26:30.600]  And so, um...
[26:30.600 --> 26:30.760]  Yeah.
[26:32.500 --> 26:33.140]  And, um...
[26:33.140 --> 26:33.660]  And, uh...
[26:34.320 --> 26:35.240]  And then I know...
[26:35.240 --> 26:36.220]  Then I know, like...
[26:36.220 --> 26:36.700]  Then I know, um...
[26:36.700 --> 26:38.160]  Like a few days later, I got...
[26:38.160 --> 26:41.160]  I got a call from like the Department of Justice asking...
[26:41.160 --> 26:41.540]  Asking...
[26:42.000 --> 26:43.620]  Asking why I was downloading so much.
[26:43.680 --> 26:44.320]  And I was like, ah!
[26:45.360 --> 26:45.720]  Yeah.
[26:45.720 --> 26:47.020]  And, um...
[26:47.020 --> 26:47.300]  Yeah.
[26:47.480 --> 26:47.780]  I don't know.
[26:48.180 --> 26:48.540]  There...
[26:48.540 --> 26:49.660]  I mean, working...
[26:49.660 --> 26:51.460]  Working with Aaron was always exciting.
[26:51.840 --> 26:52.200]  Right.
[26:52.520 --> 26:52.880]  Um...
[26:52.880 --> 26:53.520]  I think...
[26:53.520 --> 26:55.080]  I think because...
[26:55.080 --> 26:55.740]  I mean, I don't know.
[26:55.760 --> 26:56.320]  What would he do?
[26:56.560 --> 26:57.160]  I mean, I don't know.
[26:57.260 --> 26:57.540]  He would...
[26:57.540 --> 26:59.860]  He would do things...
[27:02.740 --> 27:03.100]  Um...
[27:03.560 --> 27:04.860]  He would do things in kind of a...
[27:04.860 --> 27:06.460]  In kind of a brute force kind of way.
[27:06.640 --> 27:06.880]  Or...
[27:06.880 --> 27:07.080]  Or...
[27:07.080 --> 27:07.780]  I don't know.
[27:07.860 --> 27:09.260]  Like, he would take no for an answer.
[27:09.480 --> 27:10.360]  He was...
[27:10.360 --> 27:11.320]  He was very tenacious.
[27:11.600 --> 27:12.280]  Yeah, no, no.
[27:12.320 --> 27:13.040]  This is the example.
[27:13.040 --> 27:13.280]  Yeah.
[27:13.380 --> 27:14.180]  So, the example was...
[27:14.180 --> 27:16.460]  So, he got rid of once for the PACER database.
[27:17.460 --> 27:18.340]  And, um...
[27:18.340 --> 27:20.400]  So, he knew he was raided for it.
[27:20.720 --> 27:21.020]  Um...
[27:21.020 --> 27:23.440]  It turned out what he was doing was actually legal.
[27:23.700 --> 27:24.580]  So, so, so...
[27:24.580 --> 27:27.500]  So, the next chance he got, he's like, oh, oh, I'm gonna do that again.
[27:29.680 --> 27:30.660]  Well, and he sounds...
[27:30.660 --> 27:33.920]  He sounds extremely determined like any good hacker would be.
[27:34.400 --> 27:34.840]  And...
[27:34.840 --> 27:35.000]  Yeah.
[27:35.260 --> 27:39.040]  Just somebody who went about something until he got the desired result.
[27:39.240 --> 27:41.200]  And, and I guess pretty relentless in that regard.
[27:42.100 --> 27:42.640]  Yeah, definitely.
[27:43.040 --> 27:43.780]  Bernie, go ahead.
[27:44.200 --> 27:47.820]  I just want to point out for our listeners that don't know what the PACER database is.
[27:47.900 --> 27:53.100]  It's, I mean, it's a federal database, uh, called Public Access to Court Records.
[27:53.280 --> 27:57.600]  And anybody can get an account on PACER and download documents for about eight cents a page.
[27:57.600 --> 28:11.940]  Um, but these are, these are court, what these documents are, are case law, which, case law is the decisions made by, by judges in courts, or around the country, which are looked at by judges when they make new decisions.
[28:11.940 --> 28:15.100]  And this is vitally important information to the public.
[28:15.540 --> 28:21.260]  And this is vitally important information to the public that, uh, Aaron clearly strongly believed everyone should have access to without having to pay money.
[28:21.260 --> 28:32.020]  And, uh, that's what this was all about, freeing, you know, taxpayer, publicly funded documents being made available to the public.
[28:32.020 --> 28:35.700]  Same with JSTOR, almost all that academic research was, was publicly funded.
[28:36.280 --> 28:45.640]  Um, I think that's what Aaron was trying to get at, that the government is trying to lock, uh, intellectual property that we paid for, behind a paywall.
[28:45.820 --> 28:48.460]  And he thought that was wrong, and I think all of us do too.
[28:48.780 --> 28:52.360]  Uh, Virgil, I, I, I, you know Aaron better than any of us.
[28:52.760 --> 28:58.960]  Um, I think it was always the pursuit of justice that, that motivated him, uh, more than anything else.
[28:59.200 --> 28:59.880]  Would you agree?
[29:00.000 --> 29:00.340]  Always.
[29:00.760 --> 29:01.080]  Always.
[29:01.380 --> 29:05.920]  I mean, I don't know, I mean, um, I mean, uh, social justice was always his thing.
[29:06.120 --> 29:08.400]  It was, it was, it was always things he was passionate about.
[29:08.520 --> 29:10.740]  I mean, I mean, I mean, he was, he was idealist.
[29:11.320 --> 29:14.060]  I mean, I mean, maybe even to a fault.
[29:14.240 --> 29:15.000]  I mean, I, I don't know.
[29:15.120 --> 29:17.740]  I mean, I, I, I guess, I guess where, where one draws the line.
[29:17.900 --> 29:22.380]  But I mean, I, I know, I mean, I, I know I was usually like the moderating influence.
[29:22.660 --> 29:26.600]  And if I'm the moderating influence, I mean, usually that's, that's not a good sign.
[29:26.820 --> 29:27.080]  Wow.
[29:27.080 --> 29:27.100]  Wow.
[29:27.840 --> 29:31.780]  And knowing you, yes, that does, that is something to fathom.
[29:32.000 --> 29:34.880]  Yeah, I was like, no, Aaron, don't do that.
[29:35.180 --> 29:36.440]  That's a little too aggressive.
[29:36.800 --> 29:38.180]  And he's just like, no, it's great.
[29:40.240 --> 29:45.400]  Yeah, it was that spirit, definitely that spirit, which was so captivating and contagious.
[29:47.600 --> 29:48.040]  Right.
[29:48.040 --> 29:51.200]  I think one, I mean, this whole thing has been really sad.
[29:51.360 --> 30:03.520]  I think at least one thing that's coming away from this is that I think, is that I think that the tech community is taking depression, you know, more seriously.
[30:03.800 --> 30:05.920]  I mean, so there was a hope panel last time.
[30:06.020 --> 30:10.120]  And this is, I mean, this is yet one more reason to keep having that hope panel.
[30:10.420 --> 30:17.300]  I mean, if I were to say something to fight listeners out there, I mean, depression is like, it's like, it's like a real deal.
[30:17.580 --> 30:18.700]  It really is.
[30:19.200 --> 30:21.620]  And, and it can be fatal.
[30:22.060 --> 30:23.560]  Like, case in point.
[30:24.000 --> 30:25.100]  Like, I mean, right.
[30:25.100 --> 30:37.200]  And, and if you're suffering, like, go see someone for real, like, really go see someone because, because if left unchecked, you might eventually die.
[30:39.520 --> 30:42.020]  And, I mean, yes, do that.
[30:43.160 --> 30:46.520]  And, and, and I hope people, like, start just to take it more seriously.
[30:46.820 --> 30:47.420]  I mean, I don't know.
[30:47.600 --> 30:58.540]  I mean, I guess it's become sort of like, I mean, I guess, I guess, I guess more of a larger problem with people not taking, like, mental, mental, like, non-delesional mental illnesses seriously.
[30:58.540 --> 31:01.160]  They say, Oh, well, if you're depressed, just like, snap out of it.
[31:01.340 --> 31:01.480]  Right.
[31:01.900 --> 31:10.100]  Um, the, I think the answer is that it's, I think the answer is that it's really, really hard to do that or almost, or almost impossible without help.
[31:10.420 --> 31:17.440]  Um, no, I, I really liked the thing that, so, so Aaron actually just, she described his depression on his, on his web blog.
[31:17.860 --> 31:24.520]  Um, I actually didn't know Aaron, Aaron was, I mean, I mean, he, I mean, he might've been just, um, just straight up, uh, clinically depressed.
[31:24.520 --> 31:25.880]  Uh, I mean, I, I don't know.
[31:26.000 --> 31:27.800]  I mean, I, I, I knew he was like moody.
[31:28.060 --> 31:29.940]  Um, but he has this on his web blog.
[31:30.020 --> 31:31.880]  If you want to, you can go to Google and search for it.
[31:32.100 --> 31:34.220]  Just do Aaron S.W.'s face, very sick.
[31:34.680 --> 31:36.320]  Um, and that will, he'll get it to you.
[31:36.480 --> 31:42.640]  Anyway, so, so, so, so apparently, so apparently Aaron had had several various illnesses and, and, and he was, I talked about them.
[31:42.740 --> 31:44.540]  We talked about them like this one time.
[31:44.940 --> 31:49.020]  And at the very bottom, uh, it says, it says, it says depressed mood.
[31:49.880 --> 31:53.240]  And he's describing how it feels for him to have depressed mood.
[31:53.700 --> 31:54.240]  Here it is.
[31:55.020 --> 31:57.700]  Everything you think about seems bleak.
[31:57.880 --> 32:02.180]  The things you've done, the things you hope to do, the people around you.
[32:02.340 --> 32:05.120]  You want to lie in bed and keep the lads off.
[32:05.720 --> 32:07.240]  Depressed mood is like that.
[32:07.440 --> 32:09.500]  Only it doesn't come for any reason.
[32:09.660 --> 32:11.700]  And it doesn't go for any reason either.
[32:11.700 --> 32:17.460]  If you go outside and get some fresh air or cuddle with a loved one, you don't feel any better.
[32:17.640 --> 32:23.000]  You're only more upset at being unable to feel the joy that everybody else feels.
[32:23.380 --> 32:25.280]  Everything gets colored by sadness.
[32:26.660 --> 32:32.860]  Sometimes you tell yourself your thinking is irrational, that it's simply a mood disorder, and that you should get on with your life.
[32:32.960 --> 32:34.500]  But sometimes this is worse.
[32:35.060 --> 32:39.280]  You feel as if, as if the streaks of pain are running through your head.
[32:39.500 --> 32:43.720]  You thrash your body, you search for escape, and you, but you find none.
[32:43.720 --> 32:46.240]  And this is one of the more moderate forms.
[32:48.920 --> 32:49.460]  Yeah.
[32:51.420 --> 32:54.940]  Yep, that's what it's like to be depressed Aaron Schwartz.
[32:55.860 --> 32:58.800]  Virgil, thanks so much for sharing that with us.
[32:58.980 --> 33:03.160]  And our deepest, deepest condolences to you as his close friend.
[33:03.500 --> 33:11.220]  And we'll talk again in the future, and hopefully we can do something to help people as well, or just figure this out.
[33:11.220 --> 33:14.060]  We're going to get into that in just a moment as well.
[33:14.180 --> 33:15.620]  But thanks again, Virgil.
[33:16.660 --> 33:17.520]  Thanks for having me.
[33:17.780 --> 33:18.100]  All right.
[33:18.780 --> 33:25.120]  And I think this brings us to a very important part of this unfortunate topic.
[33:25.800 --> 33:32.120]  Virgil made reference to a panel discussion that we had at Hope No.
[33:32.200 --> 33:33.420]  9 this past July.
[33:35.020 --> 33:37.800]  A panel that Mitch, you were a part of.
[33:37.800 --> 33:50.980]  I'd like to play a piece by a brief excerpt of that from one of the participants, Jimmy Rogers, who was describing a bit of what Virgil was just talking about.
[33:51.100 --> 33:51.360]  Let's listen.
[33:51.880 --> 33:55.460]  Around the time I was 16, I was extremely, extremely unhappy.
[33:55.460 --> 33:59.940]  And finally, just one morning, I woke up, and I found my state in that...
[34:00.660 --> 34:05.800]  I've described it to a number of other people, and they've had similar experiences, where you get completely apathetic.
[34:05.940 --> 34:10.120]  Just like, no emotions whatsoever, and everything is almost like pure logic.
[34:10.560 --> 34:16.100]  And I came to the logical conclusion that I should just kill myself, because that was the correct answer.
[34:16.240 --> 34:20.180]  Because otherwise, when I was outside of that, I was going to be experiencing pain again.
[34:20.180 --> 34:27.800]  I couldn't end that pain, and I got to the point of having the gun in my mouth, being ready to pull the trigger, and then I heard my mom come home.
[34:28.080 --> 34:36.640]  And I just had this profound realization at that moment of how much that would affect not just me being a permanent solution.
[34:38.160 --> 34:42.480]  You know, because that is a one-time thing, so you're done with that.
[34:42.480 --> 34:47.580]  And so then my mother came home, and I realized, oh, my mom, being a nurse, she would try to resuscitate me.
[34:47.680 --> 34:51.920]  And if I had done this correctly, and I died, then she would probably just pick up the gun and kill herself.
[34:52.120 --> 34:55.000]  And then my sister would come home, and then she'd find both of us dead.
[34:55.120 --> 34:57.320]  And then that would scar her for life.
[34:57.380 --> 34:58.580]  And then, oh, yeah, my stepdad.
[34:58.740 --> 35:00.820]  And then all of this stuff, like, started cascading.
[35:00.960 --> 35:02.500]  And then I started thinking about friends and family.
[35:02.560 --> 35:09.320]  And it was just this moment of sitting on the floor, realizing just how much I affected everybody, and how much that was going to change everything.
[35:09.320 --> 35:13.800]  And so from that point on, I've actually never gotten back to the suicidal point.
[35:14.100 --> 35:24.600]  Whenever I get to that logical, emotionless state, my solution is always go to a crisis center or call somebody instead of continuing on.
[35:24.700 --> 35:29.320]  I've been there a couple of other times, and it always seems to build up over time and eventually get there.
[35:31.300 --> 35:34.760]  But I'm very open with talking to people about this.
[35:35.000 --> 35:43.720]  I've had, unfortunately, a couple of friends and even close family members both attempt and successfully kill themselves as well.
[35:44.060 --> 35:46.000]  And it's a really...
[35:48.300 --> 35:51.680]  I mean, it's difficult to deal with.
[35:51.820 --> 35:57.660]  So I'm seriously willing to talk to anybody at any time about these types of things.
[36:00.300 --> 36:03.620]  So various points in my life, I've been on and off medications.
[36:03.980 --> 36:08.440]  I highly recommend going on medications and seeing a good therapist when you get to these states.
[36:08.440 --> 36:14.100]  The medications aren't going to fix everything, but they do help you deal with some of the problems.
[36:14.260 --> 36:15.820]  It takes the edge off sometimes.
[36:16.720 --> 36:19.900]  Because I get these crazy anxieties over just silly stuff.
[36:20.040 --> 36:24.180]  It's like you get so depressed and I can't bother opening my email.
[36:24.380 --> 36:25.860]  Just even looking at the email.
[36:26.560 --> 36:27.800]  It's like doing laundry.
[36:27.980 --> 36:29.400]  It's just some arbitrary things.
[36:29.480 --> 36:34.820]  I need to do this one thing, or the dishes are piled up, or I need to go and buy bread.
[36:35.020 --> 36:38.220]  It's just these tiny things, but they're so huge.
[36:39.000 --> 36:43.860]  That's an excerpt from the Geeks and Depression panel, which took place at Hope No.
[36:43.960 --> 36:44.600]  9 this July.
[36:45.140 --> 36:48.640]  I recommend everybody listen to that entire panel.
[36:48.820 --> 36:49.920]  It's riveting.
[36:50.360 --> 36:51.520]  You can get to it.
[36:51.600 --> 36:59.580]  Go to www.hope.net, and then click on the talks for that particular conference, and just search for Geeks and Depression.
[36:59.700 --> 37:00.580]  You'll find the audio right there.
[37:00.580 --> 37:02.580]  Now, Mitch, I want to thank you.
[37:02.740 --> 37:15.720]  I want to thank everybody who was a part of that panel discussion, because it was a 90-minute discussion that I think really needed to be had, and continues, obviously, to be needed in our community.
[37:17.540 --> 37:21.920]  And it's something that we haven't addressed in the past, not like this.
[37:22.020 --> 37:24.000]  And obviously, we haven't addressed it enough.
[37:27.980 --> 37:32.000]  What compelled you to become a part of that particular discussion?
[37:32.520 --> 37:45.420]  Well, I organized the panel because, well, first of all, I lived the first half of my life with total depression, and managed to, you know, eventually learn to live a life that I really love living.
[37:46.300 --> 37:54.800]  And I understand depression, and a year ago, a little more than a year ago, my friend Ilya killed himself.
[37:55.100 --> 38:01.120]  And it's the first time someone I was close to, who I felt close to, killed themselves.
[38:01.840 --> 38:02.660]  Killed themselves.
[38:02.940 --> 38:06.160]  And, you know, there's nothing like it.
[38:06.160 --> 38:15.640]  And I wrote a very personal blog post on NoiseBridge's, the Hackerspace NoiseBridge, which I co-founded on the blog.
[38:15.960 --> 38:30.900]  And I got over 100 emails and comments all put together of people saying how much they were thankful that I talked about this subject that they thought was taboo.
[38:31.730 --> 38:35.900]  In Ilya's case, there were no outward signs of the prey.
[38:35.900 --> 38:44.320]  Yeah, he was actually quite successful, and people didn't apparently know what he was going through.
[38:44.660 --> 38:48.260]  Yeah, very few people knew that he was depressed at all.
[38:48.460 --> 39:00.060]  And even myself, who I'm very sensitive to other people's depression since I've been through it, and sensitive to what other people go through, I couldn't pick up on it, even though I hung out with him quite a bit.
[39:00.060 --> 39:07.440]  And I talked about my past experience with depression with him, and I had no clue he was feeling that depressed.
[39:07.540 --> 39:11.720]  And it took me and all of his friends by surprise.
[39:12.040 --> 39:30.140]  And, you know, and I kept feeling angry at him, which is kind of absurd, but which is actually somewhat typical of people who are left alive behind the person, you know, their friend or family member, lover or whatever, who killed themselves.
[39:30.780 --> 39:34.560]  Like, why the hell didn't he ask for help?
[39:34.560 --> 39:39.620]  Not only me, but so many other people would have done anything to help him.
[39:39.620 --> 39:46.640]  And, but I think what Aaron wrote, what Jimmy talked about, everything just seems bleak.
[39:46.760 --> 39:47.360]  It doesn't matter.
[39:47.820 --> 39:49.000]  Nothing else matters.
[39:49.020 --> 39:50.440]  And I could relate to that too.
[39:50.580 --> 39:56.440]  I hid my depression from everyone the best I could, because you're not supposed to be depressed.
[39:57.160 --> 39:58.660]  And it's not okay.
[39:58.960 --> 40:08.220]  And that's one of the reasons why I created Geeks in Depression Meetup in San Francisco, and that helping it spread in Geeks in Depression Meetups at other cities.
[40:08.900 --> 40:15.460]  And eventually, um, uh, a panel at, uh, uh, 28 C3, and then at Hope.
[40:15.720 --> 40:19.220]  And we're going to do it again at OM 2013 this summer.
[40:19.360 --> 40:23.960]  I think it should be a part of every, every gathering, uh, in this community.
[40:24.120 --> 40:28.260]  And we say in this community, because, well, we're seeing it, obviously, uh, in our community.
[40:28.860 --> 40:33.300]  And it does seem to be, and maybe you could speak to this, it seems to be out of proportion.
[40:33.680 --> 40:40.740]  It seems to me like there are more, maybe because, uh, people feel ostracized for being different, for being bright, for being a bit mischievous.
[40:41.240 --> 40:49.380]  And in Ilya's case, he was one of the co-founders of a very successful open source, uh, uh, social media.
[40:49.740 --> 40:50.520]  Yeah, diaspora.
[40:50.700 --> 40:50.860]  Yeah.
[40:51.040 --> 40:53.780]  And, uh, how do you see that coming?
[40:54.060 --> 40:58.940]  I mean, obviously there's more to it than just, yeah, I run a successful business.
[40:59.200 --> 41:03.560]  There are all kinds of pressures, all kinds of things that might be going on inside your head.
[41:03.560 --> 41:04.280]  We don't know.
[41:04.400 --> 41:12.220]  We don't know unless we talk to each other, check in on each other constantly, and just, um, never take anything for granted.
[41:12.740 --> 41:13.460]  Yeah, yeah.
[41:13.640 --> 41:21.240]  And, um, you know, if we are a community that, um, cares about one another, then we can talk about all of who we are.
[41:21.500 --> 41:28.920]  You know, we don't have to only talk about the good stuff, uh, and then hide aspects of ourselves that we think other people don't want to hear about.
[41:28.920 --> 41:31.780]  But, um, you know, whether that's depression or whatever.
[41:32.220 --> 41:35.960]  But, uh, you know, depression, as, as Virgil said, can be deadly.
[41:36.380 --> 41:39.920]  And if people hold that in, they feel there's no one who can relate.
[41:40.140 --> 41:41.180]  That'll make it much worse.
[41:41.660 --> 41:46.040]  So I'd love to see, uh, our community be a place where people can reach out for help.
[41:46.660 --> 41:53.520]  You know, this, uh, you know, with Ilya, that was, you know, a driving force is to have it be okay to ask for help.
[41:53.740 --> 41:57.040]  And, boy, I wish Aaron would have as well.
[41:57.040 --> 42:02.780]  Um, it's too late for many of these people now, but it's not too late for anyone else.
[42:02.980 --> 42:11.040]  I'm sure that there are people listening either live or in the future that are going through crap in their lives right now and don't know where to turn.
[42:11.760 --> 42:15.640]  And, uh, I guess the first thing you say is that you're not alone.
[42:15.920 --> 42:17.360]  If that helps, does that help?
[42:18.120 --> 42:35.260]  Uh, evidently it helps with a lot of people because those hundred or so comments and emails that I received and also so many people after the panel at Hope and these other ones thank me for doing the panel and the other people on the panel said similar things.
[42:35.480 --> 42:36.220]  People were thanking them.
[42:36.360 --> 42:38.500]  They felt much better knowing they weren't alone.
[42:39.060 --> 42:46.520]  Uh, often that might not be enough, but, uh, please know whatever you're going through and life can suck sometimes.
[42:46.520 --> 42:50.960]  It can suck really, really bad and it can seem like it's hopeless and there's no way out.
[42:51.560 --> 42:52.820]  Life will suck.
[42:53.040 --> 42:53.640]  Life will suck.
[42:53.960 --> 42:55.020]  It will definitely suck.
[42:55.220 --> 42:56.780]  You will feel crappy.
[42:57.160 --> 42:58.060]  It's normal.
[42:58.340 --> 42:59.280]  It happens to everybody.
[42:59.280 --> 43:01.800]  Obviously we all feel it in different ways.
[43:01.800 --> 43:02.900]  We're all different people.
[43:03.000 --> 43:05.680]  And even if it seems like it won't change ever, it does.
[43:06.000 --> 43:07.340]  Life is ups and downs.
[43:07.540 --> 43:08.700]  It's constant change.
[43:08.700 --> 43:19.980]  So please just do whatever you can to get through the, uh, crisis time even if it doesn't feel that way and feel free to contact me anytime for any reason.
[43:20.240 --> 43:23.800]  Uh, my email is mitch at cornfield electronics dot com.
[43:24.960 --> 43:33.960]  Uh, I'd also like to mention there are so many people unfortunately that, uh, that have been victims here.
[43:34.600 --> 43:36.420]  Uh, Len Sassaman is another name.
[43:37.020 --> 43:43.560]  Len spoke at Hope a few years back and, um, committed suicide I think a couple of years ago.
[43:44.440 --> 44:01.020]  Um, and what I'd like to do now is, is play an excerpt from, uh, uh, from the panel Geeks and Depression uh, where his partner Meredith Patterson um, describes some of what that was, uh, that was like.
[44:01.260 --> 44:09.420]  Those of you who met Len, you know, at any point in the, in the last I guess four or five years probably remember he walked with a cane.
[44:09.740 --> 44:15.440]  Um, that was because, um, his, uh, his back was slowly degenerating on him.
[44:17.900 --> 44:31.920]  He was, he was terrified, just absolutely terrified of, you know, of losing his mobility, of not being able to finish his Ph.D., of, you know, of disappointing, uh, everybody that he respected and, uh, and who cared about him.
[44:32.120 --> 44:42.000]  And, you know, despite the fact that we always told him, you know, look, you know, we, we love you, we know you're brilliant, you don't have to prove anything to us.
[44:42.480 --> 44:44.920]  You know, he still felt like he had to prove it to himself.
[44:45.720 --> 45:05.500]  And, so, yeah, um, last summer I had to, um, had to go to Houston, uh, abruptly, um, because of a, well, now it seems kind of silly, but my, my elderly cat who we left with my parents, when I moved to Belgium.
[45:08.850 --> 45:09.990]  Yeah, the cat died.
[45:12.290 --> 45:14.190]  I flew home to see my family for a little bit.
[45:14.590 --> 45:17.630]  Turned out I was going to have to stick around for a bit longer for work.
[45:18.610 --> 45:26.970]  um, so I arranged for a friend of mine to, well, a friend of both of ours really to fly out to Belgium and just, you know, take care of him.
[45:28.590 --> 45:33.490]  You know, take care of any of the stuff that he needed help with around the house because of the mobility problems he was having.
[45:34.410 --> 45:56.550]  And, and, uh, so, yeah, Ted gets to Belgium on the morning of July 3rd, goes to the apartment, um, nobody, no answer at the doorbell, so he went to the, um, he went to the church up the street, borrowed a ladder, climbed in the window and found Len hanging from a wardrobe.
[45:57.390 --> 45:57.910]  So,
[46:02.680 --> 46:15.240]  and I think the hardest part about that, really, was that there were very, very few people who had any idea, um, just how far things had gone.
[46:15.420 --> 46:17.560]  I mean, even, even I really didn't know.
[46:18.270 --> 46:28.600]  But, you know, the, the, the one refrain that I just heard over and over again in the days following was, you know, we, we never knew.
[46:28.740 --> 46:30.340]  He always seemed like he was doing fine.
[46:30.660 --> 46:31.640]  But that's the point.
[46:31.900 --> 46:41.200]  You know, when he would come to conferences, that was, you know, we had, we had friends, of course, you know, who would come over and hang out in Belgium.
[46:41.660 --> 46:46.790]  Um, but, you know, he didn't really, he, he wasn't physically able to get out a lot.
[46:47.080 --> 46:50.300]  Um, and, you know, he, he loved going to conferences and seeing people.
[46:50.580 --> 47:03.880]  Um, but, you know, that was, that was also a lot A lot of stress on him because he just felt like he had to keep up this facade of being the same hyper-competent guy that everybody had gotten to know when he moved to the Bay Area back in 99.
[47:05.980 --> 47:15.260]  And I think the reason for that is, like I said, there's this stigma that's attached to depression.
[47:15.600 --> 47:17.760]  People think, well, what do you have to be sad about?
[47:17.760 --> 47:18.680]  Your life is fine.
[47:18.820 --> 47:20.840]  And it's not about being sad.
[47:20.840 --> 47:23.820]  You know, I've experienced episodic depression.
[47:23.820 --> 47:26.080]  I've had other friends of mine kill themselves, too.
[47:27.770 --> 47:36.640]  But that's not the same as having, you know, your brain chemistry constantly sabotaging you on a daily basis.
[47:37.640 --> 47:39.560]  And that is nobody's f***ing fault.
[47:40.220 --> 47:41.640]  That is nobody's fault.
[47:41.740 --> 47:43.040]  That is just bad f***ing luck.
[47:43.820 --> 47:52.020]  And so, you know, if there's one thing I want to accomplish out of this, it's to get rid of that f***ing stigma because that's what kills people.
[47:57.710 --> 47:58.810]  So, yeah.
[48:13.520 --> 48:19.150]  And I heard of Patterson from Geeks and Depression at the Hope No.
[48:19.210 --> 48:21.690]  9 conference last July.
[48:23.090 --> 48:25.750]  And I don't think truer words could be spoken.
[48:29.580 --> 48:44.650]  So, in the wake of the tragedy that happened with Aaron Schwartz on Friday, we look ahead to hopefully better communications amongst ourselves.
[48:46.710 --> 48:49.960]  And also, maybe a change.
[48:50.230 --> 48:50.880]  Maybe a change.
[48:50.880 --> 48:54.860]  Maybe a change in the things that were plaguing him.
[48:55.300 --> 49:03.250]  There's been talk of perhaps the law that was being abused.
[49:03.500 --> 49:05.440]  And I don't think there's any other word for it.
[49:06.590 --> 49:08.650]  Being changed in some way.
[49:09.270 --> 49:14.380]  Bernie, do you have any details on what is being proposed now?
[49:14.380 --> 49:22.620]  There's a bill being proposed that some are calling Aaron's Law that would primarily...
[49:22.620 --> 49:28.250]  There's a federal statute called the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, or Title 18, Section 1030.
[49:28.540 --> 49:35.520]  And basically, it says that if you use a computer in any way that is unauthorized, then it's a felony.
[49:35.940 --> 49:43.170]  But that also includes the terms of service, you know, that we all ignore the terms of service pretty much.
[49:43.170 --> 49:52.210]  Most people ignore the terms of service on a website or any kind of online account thing where you have to read pages and pages of yada, yada, yada.
[49:53.220 --> 50:00.120]  And if you violate that in any way, according to federal criminal law, you're a felon.
[50:01.480 --> 50:12.600]  And, you know, in this case, the terms of service for JSTOR that Aaron Swartz allegedly violated made him a felon.
[50:12.600 --> 50:17.500]  But it wasn't stealing of anything that people couldn't already get.
[50:19.250 --> 50:20.880]  Same with the JSTOR documents.
[50:21.060 --> 50:22.420]  So it's...
[50:22.420 --> 50:24.190]  Or sorry, the PACER documents, rather.
[50:24.480 --> 50:27.340]  So I hope this legislation goes somewhere.
[50:27.500 --> 50:36.880]  It's a small step because there's other federal statutes that are equally vague and broad that have also been misused by federal prosecutors.
[50:36.880 --> 50:38.440]  But it's a step in the right direction.
[50:40.570 --> 50:41.210]  Yeah.
[50:41.340 --> 50:54.170]  And just to add a little bit to that, right now, there's absolutely no difference in the law whether you download stuff that is personal information that you'll use for your own personal...
[50:54.170 --> 50:56.500]  Or for your own greed and gain.
[50:56.940 --> 51:05.770]  And stuff that's done on computers that's maybe mischievous or for fun or for more noble causes like freedom.
[51:06.210 --> 51:14.480]  So having different penalties to fit the crimes is, I believe, what part of this is aiming towards.
[51:16.820 --> 51:26.730]  And it's with Representative Zoe Lofgren who has introduced that amendment to the CFAA.
[51:28.940 --> 51:31.650]  And, yeah, you know, it's...
[51:32.550 --> 51:40.920]  I guess a lot of us kind of look at that with some skepticism, but in this particular case, it seems like something that's necessary.
[51:40.920 --> 51:44.190]  And something has to change, something has to be done.
[51:45.190 --> 51:52.230]  I'd like to read a couple of quotes from Aaron's funeral yesterday in Illinois.
[51:54.120 --> 51:59.060]  Particularly from his father, which I can certainly understand the sentiment here.
[52:00.250 --> 52:02.730]  Aaron did not commit suicide, but was killed by the government.
[52:03.190 --> 52:07.500]  Someone who made the world a better place was pushed to his death by the government.
[52:07.500 --> 52:18.770]  And I think, obviously, we can look at what he was facing and just his fragile state as it was.
[52:20.800 --> 52:22.920]  And, yeah, there's complicity there.
[52:23.100 --> 52:24.250]  There's no humanity.
[52:24.420 --> 52:29.520]  There's no looking at somebody as an individual, but rather looking at somebody as a statistic.
[52:30.280 --> 52:33.460]  This person is in violation of this particular code.
[52:33.650 --> 52:37.120]  So, therefore, we must go after them with all of the might that we have.
[52:37.150 --> 52:38.420]  And we have a lot at our disposal.
[52:39.600 --> 52:40.230]  It's sick.
[52:40.320 --> 52:40.750]  It's pathetic.
[52:41.020 --> 52:42.750]  And it's very costly.
[52:42.900 --> 52:44.790]  And there's no better example than this.
[52:45.120 --> 52:50.770]  And, I mean, just thinking of the magic of Aaron, what he would have contributed.
[52:50.770 --> 52:56.120]  And I can honestly say that the world will not be as good a place in five years, in ten years.
[52:56.540 --> 52:59.500]  The things he could have done, the things he could have created, the things he could have developed.
[53:04.590 --> 53:19.360]  This quote also from his father, talking about how Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, in their early days, would criminally defraud the phone company by selling blue boxes, something that we're very familiar with.
[53:21.710 --> 53:26.440]  And even Bill Gates' development of Microsoft BASIC was sketchy at best.
[53:27.380 --> 53:32.100]  These are people, he said, who are lionized, treated like idols in our culture.
[53:32.940 --> 53:35.620]  How is it that Aaron did something that legally wasn't illegal?
[53:35.880 --> 53:37.340]  And he was destroyed by it.
[53:37.960 --> 53:41.290]  We tried and tried to get MIT to help and show compassion, he said.
[53:41.400 --> 53:46.250]  But their institutional concerns were more important than compassion.
[53:46.650 --> 53:51.580]  And that's something that I think is a very sad note to end on.
[53:51.580 --> 54:05.650]  But let us try to end on something a bit more positive and let people know that there are avenues, there are channels, there are ways to reach out and talk, and we must be listening as well.
[54:08.060 --> 54:15.540]  And Mitch, anything that you can offer as far as where people can turn or what we can do to help?
[54:15.540 --> 54:16.550]  Yeah.
[54:18.250 --> 54:26.440]  You know, it's scary to face your inner demons.
[54:27.340 --> 54:33.620]  And it's kind of bizarre, but it might actually feel like it's easier to kill yourself.
[54:33.840 --> 54:34.750]  And you know what?
[54:34.820 --> 54:38.650]  It actually is okay to kill yourself.
[54:39.340 --> 54:43.400]  It's the last option, however, you'll ever make.
[54:43.520 --> 54:48.620]  And there are a lot of options worth exploring, I think, if you're considering that one.
[54:48.820 --> 54:54.290]  And please consider exploring them with the help of other people.
[54:55.500 --> 54:58.080]  You know, I already gave my email address.
[54:58.730 --> 55:00.840]  Jimmy gave his at the panel.
[55:00.980 --> 55:01.820]  Why don't you give yours again?
[55:02.440 --> 55:06.020]  Mitch at cornfieldelectronics.com.
[55:06.190 --> 55:11.120]  If you don't remember that, O-T-H at 2600.net, is it?
[55:11.290 --> 55:11.670]  Dot com.
[55:11.880 --> 55:12.270]  Dot com.
[55:12.560 --> 55:12.960]  Network as well.
[55:13.230 --> 55:15.650]  And that'll get to me as well.
[55:15.820 --> 55:18.860]  So please, you know, look at other options.
[55:18.860 --> 55:19.860]  There are a lot of them.
[55:20.120 --> 55:21.500]  And live another night.
[55:21.750 --> 55:22.750]  It's worth it.
[55:23.270 --> 55:23.650]  All right.
[55:23.730 --> 55:34.230]  And I think we all just need to be listening and realizing that people are human beings, no matter how successful and prosperous they may seem.
[55:35.770 --> 55:36.600]  We're all humans.
[55:36.600 --> 55:39.940]  And we all have weaknesses and needs.
[55:40.170 --> 55:42.120]  And we all have to take care of each other.
[55:42.290 --> 55:44.920]  I want to go out with something positive.
[55:45.000 --> 55:54.750]  I want to go out with the words of Aaron Schwartz at a keynote he was giving at a conference about a year and a half ago, I believe, talking about the fight.
[55:54.750 --> 55:58.400]  What he relished more than anything was the fight against injustice.
[56:00.270 --> 56:01.820]  You've been listening to Off the Hook on WBAI.
[56:02.380 --> 56:02.960]  We'll see you next week.
[56:03.230 --> 56:05.120]  Those of you who met...
[56:05.120 --> 56:05.770]  I'm sorry.
[56:05.840 --> 56:07.250]  We have the wrong audio there.
[56:08.650 --> 56:10.900]  This is Aaron Schwartz.
[56:19.570 --> 56:23.730]  But I knew that the Supreme Court had a blind spot around the First Amendment.
[56:23.970 --> 56:24.970]  More than anything else.
[56:25.070 --> 56:26.410]  More than slander or libel.
[56:26.550 --> 56:27.250]  More than pornography.
[56:27.490 --> 56:29.290]  More even than child pornography.
[56:30.390 --> 56:31.790]  Their blind spot was copyright.
[56:33.150 --> 56:38.850]  When it came to copyright, it was like the part of the justice's brain shut off, and they just totally forgot about the First Amendment.
[56:39.330 --> 56:44.330]  You got the sense that deep down, they didn't even think the First Amendment applied when copyright was at issue.
[56:45.110 --> 56:56.190]  Which means that if you did want to censor the internet, if you wanted to come up with some way that the government could shut down access to particular websites, this bill might be the only way to do it.
[56:56.590 --> 57:01.490]  If it was about pornography, it probably would get overturned by the courts, just like the adult bookstore case.
[57:01.870 --> 57:05.150]  But if you claimed it was about copyright, it might just sneak through.
[57:06.250 --> 57:09.830]  And that was especially terrifying, because as you know, copyright is everywhere.
[57:10.250 --> 57:14.970]  If you want to shut down WikiLeaks, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that you're doing it because they have too much pornography.
[57:15.570 --> 57:18.730]  But it's not hard at all to claim that WikiLeaks is violating copyright.
[57:20.130 --> 57:21.450]  Because everything is copyrighted.
[57:21.450 --> 57:24.750]  The speech, you know, the thing I'm giving right now, these words are copyrighted.
[57:25.250 --> 57:27.490]  And it's so easy to accidentally copy something.
[57:27.610 --> 57:35.770]  So easy, in fact, that the leading Republican supporter of COICA, Orrin Hatch, had illegally copied a bunch of code into his own Senate website.
[57:37.790 --> 57:47.030]  So if even Orrin Hatch's Senate website was found to be violating copyright law, what's the chance that they wouldn't find something they could pin on any of us?
[57:50.140 --> 58:20.700]  There's no place in this world where I'll belong when I'm gone And I won't know the right from the wrong when I'm gone And you won't find me singing on this song when I'm gone So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here And I won't feel the flowing of the time when I'm gone.
[58:20.980 --> 58:26.300]  All the pleasures of love will not be mine when I'm gone.
[58:27.220 --> 58:31.820]  My pen won't pour a lyric line when I'm gone.
[58:31.900 --> 58:36.320]  So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here.
[58:39.080 --> 58:44.540]  And I won't breathe the bracing air when I'm gone.
[58:44.600 --> 58:50.160]  And I can't even worry about my cares when I'm gone.
[58:51.220 --> 58:55.420]  Won't be asked to do my share when I'm gone.
[58:55.420 --> 58:59.760]  So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here.
[59:03.750 --> 59:09.290]  And I won't be running from the rain when I'm gone.
[59:09.330 --> 59:14.970]  And I can't even suffer from the pain when I'm gone.
[59:14.970 --> 59:20.430]  Can't say who's to praise and who's to blame when I'm gone.
[59:20.450 --> 59:25.230]  So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here.
[59:27.010 --> 59:27.850]  All my days won't be dances of delight when I'm gone.
[59:27.850 --> 59:31.790]  Won't see the golden of the sun when I'm gone.
[59:32.350 --> 59:37.490]  And the evenings and the mornings will be one when I'm gone.
[59:38.410 --> 59:43.250]  Can't be singing louder than the guns while I'm gone.
[59:43.390 --> 59:47.650]  So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here.
[59:48.790 --> 59:49.710]  And I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone.
[59:49.710 --> 59:54.490]  All my days won't be dances of delight when I'm gone.
[59:54.990 --> 01:00:00.170]  And the sands will be shifting from my side when I'm gone.
[01:00:01.210 --> 01:00:05.710]  Can't add my name into the fight while I'm gone.
[01:00:05.710 --> 01:00:10.030]  So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here.
[01:00:14.300 --> 01:00:15.300]  There's no place in this place where I'm gone.
[01:00:15.300 --> 01:00:19.900]  And I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone.
[01:00:20.420 --> 01:00:26.040]  And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone.
[01:00:27.120 --> 01:00:31.980]  Can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone.
[01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:36.600]  So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here.
[01:00:39.200 --> 01:01:08.720]  There's no place in this world where I'll belong when I'm gone And I won't know the right from the wrong when I'm gone And you won't find me singing on this song when I'm gone So I guess I'll have to do it, I guess I'll have to do it Guess I'll have to do it,
[01:01:08.720 --> 01:01:10.560]  while I'm here