[00:00.000 --> 00:14.900]  As a homeowner, renter, business, or nonprofit organization can come to any of those disaster recovery centers and get any assistance they need in filling out that loan application and can actually turn in the application right there at the Disaster Recovery Center.
[00:15.100 --> 00:25.020]  For more information on the SBA Disaster Assistance Program, call 1-800-659-2955 or visit sba.gov.
[00:25.020 --> 00:32.580]  That's 1-800-659-2955 or sba.gov.
[00:36.700 --> 00:40.060]  You're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:40.260 --> 00:42.020]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:42.500 --> 00:43.820]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:02.470 --> 02:03.530]  And here we are.
[02:03.770 --> 02:04.910]  Another edition of Off the Hook.
[02:04.990 --> 02:08.190]  In fact, maybe the last edition of Off the Hook from these studios here on Wall Street.
[02:08.730 --> 02:09.810]  Manuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:09.910 --> 02:10.830]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:11.010 --> 02:11.530]  Good evening.
[02:11.670 --> 02:12.050]  Rob T.
[02:12.190 --> 02:12.590]  Firefly.
[02:12.830 --> 02:13.210]  Good evening.
[02:14.070 --> 02:15.950]  Kyle, if I can find your microphone.
[02:16.390 --> 02:16.630]  Hi.
[02:16.870 --> 02:18.210]  Hi, you're all the way on the other side there.
[02:18.750 --> 02:19.550]  Bernie S.
[02:20.870 --> 02:21.230]  Greetings.
[02:21.490 --> 02:22.950]  This is going to be a great freaking show.
[02:23.250 --> 02:28.630]  It is going to be a great freaking show, but if you could turn up your freaking volume a little bit, that would be even better because you're very, very low.
[02:28.670 --> 02:28.670]  Turn it up?
[02:28.790 --> 02:29.010]  Okay.
[02:29.350 --> 02:31.150]  Or shout or something.
[02:31.410 --> 02:32.430]  Or bang the phone.
[02:32.430 --> 02:33.070]  This is what you do.
[02:33.410 --> 02:37.670]  I assume you're talking on a 501 or something, one of those rotary phones.
[02:37.690 --> 02:43.270]  You just basically bang the receiver on the desk, and that loosens up the carbon filaments inside, and you can talk much better.
[02:43.350 --> 02:45.990]  Yeah, those damn carbon filaments get jammed up all the time.
[02:45.990 --> 02:46.250]  Yes.
[02:46.650 --> 02:56.690]  If none of this makes any sense to you listening, it will soon because tonight is a special edition of Off the Hook where we're going to go back into the past and talk about some history.
[02:56.910 --> 03:02.810]  Some history of things that we hold near and dear, or at least things that I hold near and dear, and Kyle, I know you do too.
[03:03.270 --> 03:03.450]  Yes.
[03:03.510 --> 03:07.710]  Rob, I certainly know you do, and Mike, I'm not so sure how near and dear you hold.
[03:07.850 --> 03:09.210]  I have no idea what you're talking about.
[03:09.210 --> 03:09.630]  See what I mean?
[03:10.090 --> 03:10.450]  Carbon?
[03:10.790 --> 03:11.130]  Yeah.
[03:11.150 --> 03:12.930]  That's the thing they make pencils out of, right?
[03:12.930 --> 03:14.290]  Everything comes from carbon.
[03:14.550 --> 03:14.910]  Life.
[03:14.910 --> 03:15.710]  That's all you've got to know.
[03:15.770 --> 03:16.550]  We're talking about life?
[03:16.550 --> 03:17.670]  I can handle that.
[03:17.750 --> 03:18.810]  We're always talking about life.
[03:18.810 --> 03:22.290]  But for the moment, before we get into the life part, let's get into a little bit of death.
[03:22.550 --> 03:24.290]  And that has to do with...
[03:24.290 --> 03:24.790]  Wait, what?
[03:25.010 --> 03:26.250]  No, it's news.
[03:26.350 --> 03:27.750]  It's all part of the news, life and death.
[03:29.630 --> 03:29.950]  Drones.
[03:30.210 --> 03:31.130]  You know about drones, right?
[03:33.170 --> 03:36.970]  Apparently, we're going to be seeing a lot more drones in our day-to-day life.
[03:36.970 --> 03:47.390]  And various states in parts of the country are stepping up fights, according to this article, stepping up fights against the use of surveillance drones by law enforcement.
[03:47.690 --> 04:00.470]  Lawmakers in at least 11 states are proposing various restrictions on the use of drones over their skies amid concerns that the unmanned aerial vehicles could be exploited by local authorities to spy on Americans.
[04:00.470 --> 04:01.650]  What do you think about that?
[04:02.690 --> 04:04.510]  What are the other 39 states doing?
[04:04.790 --> 04:05.770]  They're not doing that.
[04:06.090 --> 04:06.490]  That's...
[04:06.490 --> 04:08.250]  And that is certainly a problem.
[04:08.350 --> 04:10.730]  I'm not sure if we're one of the states here in New York.
[04:10.890 --> 04:12.610]  I know Washington is not one of them, Kyle.
[04:13.250 --> 04:18.750]  You're from Seattle, and I understand, what, the Seattle police are very eager to use drones to spy on people?
[04:19.430 --> 04:20.730]  Yeah, they are...
[04:20.730 --> 04:22.050]  They got permission.
[04:22.430 --> 04:25.070]  I think there was an article a while ago, I don't know if Bernie S.
[04:25.110 --> 04:29.690]  maybe remembers, but I think they got permission from the FAA or something so they could fly them.
[04:31.290 --> 04:37.870]  Around the area in the Seattle metropolitan area and in the city of Seattle directly.
[04:38.630 --> 04:49.710]  And it's actually sort of interesting because there's so many airports in the area, you really can't fly things that high like kites and remote, I guess, remote control stuff, too.
[04:49.930 --> 04:59.030]  I know this from various experiments and things that people have wanted to do with aerial projects or balloons or science stuff at a hackerspace.
[04:59.230 --> 05:05.230]  So it's sort of interesting that the police department's really gung-ho and they've got the go-ahead and they're going to go for it.
[05:05.430 --> 05:08.470]  And basically, it's for public safety and like fires and...
[05:08.470 --> 05:09.190]  Well, that's what they claim.
[05:09.350 --> 05:09.630]  Exactly.
[05:09.810 --> 05:10.350]  That's what they say.
[05:10.390 --> 05:12.290]  That's the story as they'd like it.
[05:12.290 --> 05:21.810]  Well, according to this article, Seattle police received approval from the FAA to train people to operate drones for use in investigations, search and rescue operations, and natural disasters.
[05:22.410 --> 05:33.310]  Residents and the ACLU called on city officials to tightly regulate the information that can be collected by drones, which are not in use yet, but will be at some point.
[05:33.370 --> 05:36.190]  I got a list of also the states that are fighting this.
[05:36.490 --> 05:43.410]  And those states are Montana, California, Oregon, Texas, Nebraska, Missouri, North Dakota, Florida, Virginia, Maine, and Oklahoma.
[05:43.610 --> 05:44.970]  I did not hear New York in that list.
[05:45.210 --> 05:45.790]  That's unfortunate.
[05:46.350 --> 05:46.730]  Yes, Bernie.
[05:46.930 --> 05:57.270]  It might be worth noting that the FBI, the DEA, and other law enforcement agencies, they've been flying surveillance planes over the skies of the United States for decades.
[05:57.950 --> 06:03.270]  And they don't need state permission to fly drones over state airspace.
[06:03.570 --> 06:08.050]  So this might keep your local authorities from using drones if such a bill was passed.
[06:08.250 --> 06:09.770]  But it won't stop the feds.
[06:09.930 --> 06:10.250]  Wow.
[06:10.470 --> 06:14.350]  And it won't stop the military either, or the CIA, or any of those people.
[06:14.350 --> 06:28.230]  Well, in fact, a newly revealed memo of the Obama administration claims authority, I like how you can just claim authority, to target and kill overseas al-Qaeda members, even American citizens, in broad terms that go way beyond previous statements by the president and his top aides.
[06:28.230 --> 06:31.850]  The administration's position has brought objections from some longtime critics.
[06:31.990 --> 06:41.610]  However, the response from Congress has been muted, reflecting the degree to which once controversial practices in drone warfare have become mainstream after more than a decade of conflict.
[06:41.610 --> 06:49.310]  And I think that's a parallel to so many things in our culture, how things that were once controversial now are simply accepted.
[06:49.510 --> 06:53.450]  And we can say that Congress is muted in their response.
[06:53.450 --> 06:56.950]  But I think even beyond that, the American public is muted.
[06:57.110 --> 07:01.690]  The vast majority, 83% of Americans approve of Obama's drone policy.
[07:02.010 --> 07:03.490]  So don't expect changes.
[07:03.830 --> 07:05.570]  83% of Americans don't...
[07:05.570 --> 07:05.690]  83% don't...
[07:05.690 --> 07:05.830]  83% don't...
[07:05.830 --> 07:08.850]  You can't get that kind of consensus for the sun coming up in the morning.
[07:08.850 --> 07:13.350]  Well, this is something apparently they've been scared into agreeing to.
[07:14.810 --> 07:16.090]  So it's scary.
[07:16.270 --> 07:16.950]  Drones, yeah.
[07:17.090 --> 07:18.110]  Drones are...
[07:18.110 --> 07:28.430]  In fact, that story recently, we heard about the horrible case of yet another shooting in Alabama where a kid was held hostage underground for about four or five days.
[07:28.890 --> 07:30.710]  And I read...
[07:32.170 --> 07:35.150]  They're giving out very little information as to what exactly was going on.
[07:35.150 --> 07:41.770]  But they were able to somehow, through a drainage pipe, drop a camera in there that was not noticed by the guy holding the kid hostage.
[07:41.830 --> 07:45.450]  And they say they used drones for this operation.
[07:45.450 --> 07:47.790]  And I'm just wondering, how do drones...
[07:47.790 --> 07:52.950]  For somebody who's underground in a bunker, how do drones help out in a situation like that?
[07:53.050 --> 07:53.990]  Anybody have any theories?
[07:54.530 --> 07:55.730]  Because they're not telling us.
[07:55.870 --> 08:06.130]  I think they help out by being a handy buzzword that they can sneak into a story about a very terrible thing, which is somebody kidnapping a child, and therefore get the word into the public consciousness as something helpful and good.
[08:06.330 --> 08:06.910]  So drones are good.
[08:07.090 --> 08:07.630]  Okay, I get it.
[08:07.650 --> 08:08.190]  I see.
[08:08.350 --> 08:09.430]  Yeah, that's probably likely.
[08:09.570 --> 08:10.890]  Bernie, do you concur with that?
[08:11.530 --> 08:12.250]  Oh, absolutely.
[08:12.450 --> 08:12.970]  I think you...
[08:12.970 --> 08:25.270]  Anything that was a positive outcome, which I think the authorities say this is a positive outcome, if you can toss the word drones in there, that they were involved, then it just sweetens the whole sizzle to selling drones to the public.
[08:25.270 --> 08:25.870]  Uh-huh.
[08:26.590 --> 08:26.970]  Wow.
[08:27.250 --> 08:27.490]  Okay.
[08:27.670 --> 08:30.570]  Well, that's pretty much our look at drones for the day.
[08:31.170 --> 08:31.550]  And...
[08:32.850 --> 08:33.370]  87%, that's the most...
[08:33.370 --> 08:34.090]  83%.
[08:34.090 --> 08:34.570]  83%.
[08:34.570 --> 08:35.550]  Let's not exaggerate, Mike.
[08:35.590 --> 08:37.210]  That's the most depressing thing I've heard today.
[08:37.470 --> 08:41.870]  Well, that is, according to that news report, maybe it'll change, but we'll...
[08:41.870 --> 08:44.130]  Well, let's go on the street and just ask 10 random people.
[08:44.290 --> 08:51.590]  And if 8.3 of them say they agree with drone policy, and who knows how the question was phrased.
[08:51.710 --> 08:55.990]  Maybe it was just, do you believe drones can help us if we're in day danger or something like that?
[08:56.110 --> 08:57.330]  Yeah, is it domestically or internationally?
[08:57.330 --> 08:57.830]  No, that was internationally.
[08:57.970 --> 08:58.330]  It was internationally.
[08:58.350 --> 08:58.750]  That was, yeah.
[08:58.890 --> 09:00.670]  Right, like Obama's policy.
[09:00.670 --> 09:04.790]  It was basically, it was probably phrased, do you think drones should be used to kill evil people overseas?
[09:04.790 --> 09:07.410]  Right, like in Afghanistan or whatever, name your war.
[09:07.490 --> 09:08.810]  And that is how policy works.
[09:08.870 --> 09:09.770]  That's how you get policy.
[09:10.670 --> 09:12.950]  Okay, so that's that.
[09:13.110 --> 09:16.010]  Now, tonight, as I said, this might be our last show from Wall Street.
[09:16.010 --> 09:18.350]  We are moving, and we're not on next week.
[09:18.910 --> 09:22.830]  Not on next week, so the odds of us moving in the next couple of weeks are pretty high.
[09:23.230 --> 09:26.490]  So the next time you hear our voices, well, it's not going to make any difference to you.
[09:26.630 --> 09:31.230]  You know, maybe we shouldn't even be talking about this because it doesn't mean a damn thing to people listening to us.
[09:31.390 --> 09:35.530]  Our voices are going to sound exactly the same, unless the microphones suck where we're going.
[09:35.850 --> 09:36.770]  They could be better.
[09:36.930 --> 09:37.690]  Oh, they could be better.
[09:37.810 --> 09:38.170]  That's true.
[09:38.250 --> 09:39.550]  But how could our voices sound any better?
[09:40.310 --> 09:40.590]  Right?
[09:40.690 --> 09:41.830]  I'd have a cold next week.
[09:41.830 --> 09:42.670]  Indeed, how could they?
[09:42.730 --> 09:42.910]  Yeah.
[09:44.510 --> 09:51.270]  But in any event, it's a big deal for us, and a lot of confusion and reorganization has to take place.
[09:51.370 --> 09:53.210]  So if we sound a little flustered, that's why.
[09:53.690 --> 09:56.790]  And also, this is all, you know, Hurricane Sandy aftermath.
[09:56.810 --> 09:58.050]  We have different phone numbers.
[09:58.230 --> 10:00.550]  In fact, tonight, we're going to introduce yet another phone number.
[10:00.630 --> 10:05.610]  We've had so many since that disaster hit, because tonight is a special fundraising program.
[10:06.490 --> 10:12.210]  And before your eyes roll back into your head, realize that this is February, and we do this every February.
[10:12.210 --> 10:15.010]  It's a necessary part of the radio station's survival.
[10:15.490 --> 10:21.810]  And what we do is we try and make things as pleasant as possible by offering people these amazing gifts.
[10:21.910 --> 10:25.170]  And tonight, boy, do we have an incredible gift for people.
[10:25.270 --> 10:29.190]  Rob, would you like to drop that gift on the table, just to get a sense as to how much it's worth?
[10:30.090 --> 10:30.450]  Yeah.
[10:30.630 --> 10:32.950]  You might know what that is, by the sound of that.
[10:33.030 --> 10:33.750]  I've got one, too.
[10:33.770 --> 10:34.370]  I'm going to drop mine.
[10:36.030 --> 10:37.170]  I'm unbalanced, but...
[10:37.170 --> 10:39.950]  Do other radio programs drop their premiums on the table?
[10:39.970 --> 10:44.510]  No, in fact, and if they do, let me know, because we have the idea patented, and they are not allowed to do that.
[10:44.530 --> 10:45.690]  I don't believe in that sort of patent.
[10:45.710 --> 10:48.090]  I think the Fabergé egg hour tried that once, but it didn't go well.
[10:48.970 --> 10:51.590]  This is a book, and it's an incredible book.
[10:51.690 --> 10:52.570]  It has just come out.
[10:52.890 --> 10:56.890]  It's a book that I have been waiting for for quite some time.
[10:57.190 --> 11:03.690]  Even if I didn't know that the book was coming out, I would be waiting for this book, because it's just so interesting and speaks to the things that I'm fascinated by.
[11:03.690 --> 11:09.570]  And I know many of our listeners are very interested in the history of phone freaking.
[11:10.030 --> 11:13.230]  And phone freaking is basically playing with telephones.
[11:13.430 --> 11:18.110]  It's been going on for many decades, and it's changed so much over the years.
[11:18.110 --> 11:22.530]  And it's really a passion that many of us have.
[11:22.690 --> 11:31.570]  For people that actually might still be unclear on what a phone freak is, this book has the definition on page IX.
[11:32.630 --> 11:40.870]  A phone freak is defined as a noun, a person who is obsessively interested in learning about, exploring, or playing with the telephone network.
[11:41.150 --> 11:42.290]  That's the first definition.
[11:42.410 --> 11:46.790]  The second definition is a person who is interested in making free telephone calls.
[11:47.190 --> 11:48.370]  Yeah, that's a part of it.
[11:48.490 --> 11:52.350]  And it was a big part of it back when phone calls cost a lot of money.
[11:52.510 --> 11:54.430]  And they used to cost a huge amount.
[11:54.590 --> 11:58.370]  Just a call from Long Island to New York City would cost about a dollar.
[11:58.710 --> 12:01.570]  Imagine that for the first three minutes, and then something like 30 cents each minute.
[12:01.710 --> 12:06.090]  And the dollar was worth a lot less back then, or a lot more back then.
[12:06.130 --> 12:06.610]  Wait, which is it?
[12:06.650 --> 12:07.730]  Yeah, it was worth more.
[12:07.950 --> 12:09.210]  A dollar, it was...
[12:09.790 --> 12:10.810]  It was a big deal.
[12:10.850 --> 12:11.890]  It was a big deal, yes.
[12:12.030 --> 12:14.830]  So to spend that kind of money on just a phone call.
[12:14.830 --> 12:18.030]  And now these days, you can call almost anywhere for nothing.
[12:18.030 --> 12:20.090]  So in a way, the phone freaks have won.
[12:20.230 --> 12:24.370]  But we're going to get into that whole discussion as to just what the history is all about.
[12:24.450 --> 12:25.730]  Let's talk about the book a little bit.
[12:25.770 --> 12:32.650]  The book is called Exploding the Phone, The Untold Story of the Teenagers and Outlaws Who Hacked Ma Bell.
[12:33.150 --> 12:34.650]  It's written by Phil Lapsley.
[12:34.790 --> 12:38.330]  Phil joins us on the phone, appropriately enough.
[12:38.570 --> 12:39.370]  Phil, are you with us?
[12:39.750 --> 12:40.710]  I am with you.
[12:40.890 --> 12:41.310]  Can you hear me?
[12:41.370 --> 12:42.470]  Yes, I hear you just fine.
[12:42.470 --> 12:44.610]  Can I ask what part of the world you are in?
[12:44.970 --> 12:49.310]  I am in Santa Rosa, California, up in somewhat rural Northern California.
[12:49.570 --> 12:50.150]  How exotic.
[12:50.170 --> 12:50.530]  Wow.
[12:50.950 --> 12:52.330]  I'm actually speaking to you.
[12:52.430 --> 13:00.090]  You were joking before about a 501 Series rotary phone, but I'm actually speaking to you from my brother's old 500 Series rotary phone here.
[13:00.250 --> 13:01.890]  Can you dial a 6 for us?
[13:02.430 --> 13:02.910]  Sure.
[13:04.730 --> 13:05.610]  There you go.
[13:05.790 --> 13:06.150]  Wow.
[13:06.310 --> 13:07.950]  What color is it?
[13:08.310 --> 13:09.010]  Black, of course.
[13:09.110 --> 13:10.170]  Of course it's black, Kyle.
[13:10.330 --> 13:12.070]  I just had to ask.
[13:12.070 --> 13:12.390]  Yeah.
[13:13.610 --> 13:14.170]  I think...
[13:14.470 --> 13:15.530]  Rob, do you have old phones?
[13:16.250 --> 13:17.330]  I enjoy old phones.
[13:17.450 --> 13:19.510]  I don't own very many at the moment, though, sadly enough.
[13:19.990 --> 13:21.010]  They're not hard to get.
[13:21.230 --> 13:24.970]  Garage sales and HamFest, you can find all kinds of old phones.
[13:25.110 --> 13:26.530]  And they last forever.
[13:26.670 --> 13:27.390]  They sound great.
[13:27.630 --> 13:29.790]  They're kind of fun to refurbish and fix up.
[13:29.910 --> 13:33.090]  And the electronics by today's standards are pretty simple to understand.
[13:33.290 --> 13:34.610]  And it's a good way to get your hands on them.
[13:34.770 --> 13:39.190]  And, you know, Bernie, not to put you on the spot or anything like this, I just would like to make this little demonstration now.
[13:39.210 --> 13:49.890]  Since we have someone who's on a 501 rotary phone and you're on a modern newfangled cell phone, I would like you both to say you're listening to WBAI.
[13:49.890 --> 13:51.710]  And let's see who sounds better.
[13:51.850 --> 13:52.710]  Bernie, would you begin, please?
[13:53.890 --> 13:56.430]  You are listening to WBAI-FM.
[13:56.870 --> 13:57.310]  All right.
[13:57.350 --> 13:58.870]  You don't have to add things to it.
[13:58.950 --> 13:59.050]  Okay.
[13:59.090 --> 14:00.130]  Now, Phil, could you do that, please?
[14:00.530 --> 14:02.470]  You are listening to WBAI.
[14:02.670 --> 14:04.210]  I rest my case.
[14:04.470 --> 14:06.090]  I mean, he just sounds so much better.
[14:06.750 --> 14:06.950]  Okay.
[14:07.070 --> 14:10.350]  But now, Phil, tell us something about how you got into the whole...
[14:10.350 --> 14:15.890]  You've spoken at Hope many times about the history of the phone network and phone freaks and things like that.
[14:15.950 --> 14:17.270]  How did you get into it in the first place?
[14:17.270 --> 14:20.530]  Well, it turned like so many things related to phone freaking.
[14:20.710 --> 14:34.570]  It turned into sort of an innocent curiosity that then turned into a hobby that turned into an obsession and ended up eating up, as Bernie likes to keep saying, the better part of a decade of my life, which is probably could be said of almost any phone freak as well.
[14:35.570 --> 14:45.530]  But, you know, I had gotten involved in phone freaking a little bit when I was much younger in high school, kind of like 1978, 1980 time frame.
[14:45.530 --> 14:48.150]  And I'd always remained really interested in it.
[14:48.570 --> 14:51.370]  I later got involved in computers and computer security.
[14:51.510 --> 14:57.610]  And it always struck me that phone freaking was sort of this unacknowledged precursor to computer hacking.
[14:58.210 --> 15:02.810]  And, you know, and I mean that in both, you know, the good and the bad senses of computer hacking, right?
[15:02.910 --> 15:08.410]  The joy of exploring a computer system, as well as, you know, potentially breaking into a computer system.
[15:08.590 --> 15:09.810]  Same thing for the telephone network.
[15:09.810 --> 15:14.770]  And so I've always been curious about this stuff, and I've got a little bit of a history gene that runs in the family.
[15:15.030 --> 15:17.910]  One of my brothers is a historian by trade.
[15:18.830 --> 15:22.090]  And I just, around 2005, I was in a hotel room.
[15:22.090 --> 15:22.930]  I was bored.
[15:23.130 --> 15:25.710]  I was looking at Wikipedia, and I was reading the phone freaking article.
[15:25.830 --> 15:32.590]  And I remember thinking, well, you know, half the stuff here I know isn't right, and the other half might be right, but maybe it's not.
[15:32.650 --> 15:33.710]  There's no citations on it.
[15:33.710 --> 15:43.550]  And I just, I started wondering, like, where did the first phone freaks come from, and what made them think about it, and how did they learn about this stuff, and what prompts somebody to get involved in this hobby?
[15:43.930 --> 15:48.350]  And I just started collecting documents and talking to people and doing research.
[15:49.170 --> 15:55.890]  And before you know it, I started a website and started amassing documents, and then eventually it turned into a book project.
[15:56.090 --> 16:00.170]  So it was really, you know, it was a labor of love and curiosity more than anything else.
[16:01.090 --> 16:08.550]  This book is over 400 pages, and it looks like you had no problem finding content to include here.
[16:09.590 --> 16:10.870]  No, no problem at all.
[16:10.890 --> 16:20.270]  In fact, there's actually on the website, explodingthephone.com, there's actually an extras section where you can find additional content that I, you know, just couldn't fit in the book, you know.
[16:20.430 --> 16:23.930]  And even now, people are emailing me, oh, you forgot to talk about this.
[16:24.050 --> 16:25.030]  I'm like, oh, crap, you're right.
[16:25.130 --> 16:26.230]  I did forget to talk about that.
[16:26.390 --> 16:28.610]  So, yeah, no shortage of content at all.
[16:28.610 --> 16:31.070]  So what kinds of interviews did you do?
[16:31.910 --> 16:37.550]  So I've, the research for the book was spread out over a bunch of different areas.
[16:37.810 --> 16:41.190]  I mean, you know, the main one, you know, one of the main ones, obviously, was talking to the phone freaks.
[16:41.350 --> 16:49.970]  And what I was really trying to figure out was, how did people get into this stuff, you know, as early as possible, like 1950s, early 1960s?
[16:50.030 --> 16:54.210]  Because, you know, probably a lot of people have read the Esquire article.
[16:54.210 --> 16:59.090]  There's a famous Esquire article in 1971, which made, kind of brought phone freaking into the mainstream.
[16:59.310 --> 17:01.990]  And so a lot of people associate that that is the dawn of phone freaking.
[17:02.070 --> 17:04.270]  But I was curious, what happened earlier than that?
[17:04.570 --> 17:06.590]  So some of it was talking to phone freaks.
[17:06.830 --> 17:19.090]  But then I also spent a lot of time tracking down former Bell system people, you know, people who worked in their security groups, engineers who worked at Bell Labs, you know, operations people at the Bell operating companies, and talking to them.
[17:19.090 --> 17:22.170]  And then also FBI agents who are involved in this stuff as well.
[17:22.370 --> 17:27.690]  So my interview is really just kind of, you know, span the gamut of people involved in this.
[17:28.390 --> 17:34.130]  I'll let you read a little bit from the promotional flyer that comes with the book that was sent to us.
[17:34.610 --> 17:46.170]  Before smartphones and iPads, before the internet or the personal computer, a misfit group of technophiles, blind teenagers, hippies, and outlaws figured out how to hack the world's largest machine, the telephone system.
[17:46.170 --> 17:57.150]  By the middle of the 20th century, the telephone system had grown into something extraordinary, a web of cutting-edge switching machines and human operators that linked together millions of people like never before.
[17:57.390 --> 18:03.790]  But the network had a billion-dollar flaw, and once people discovered it, things would never be the same.
[18:04.250 --> 18:23.130]  Phil Lapsley's exploding the phone traces the birth of long-distance communication and the telephone, the rise of AT&T's monopoly, the creation of the sophisticated machines that made it all work, the discovery of Ma Bell's Achilles heel, Lapsley weaves together the clandestine network of phone freaks who broke into the system to satisfy their curiosity,
[18:23.310 --> 18:31.670]  the mobsters who exploited its flaws to avoid the feds, and the counterculture movement that argued you should rip off the phone company to fight against the war in Vietnam.
[18:32.350 --> 18:34.990]  Now, this is interesting, and a lot of people might not know this.
[18:34.990 --> 18:44.810]  AT&T responded with Green Star, an unprecedented project that would ultimately tap some 33 million telephone calls and record 1.5 million of them.
[18:44.950 --> 18:51.610]  The FBI fought back, too, especially when a phone freak showed a confidential informant how he could remotely eavesdrop on FBI calls.
[18:51.850 --> 19:03.310]  Phone freaking exploded into the popular culture, with famous actors, musicians, investors caught up with blue boxes, many of them built by two young phone freaks named Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
[19:03.730 --> 19:07.890]  Soon, the phone freaks, the feds, and the phone company were at war.
[19:08.550 --> 19:12.630]  Now, Phil, it sounds so dramatic, but it really was dramatic, wasn't it?
[19:13.450 --> 19:14.670]  I think it really was.
[19:14.850 --> 19:20.370]  I mean, to me, it's really quite an amazing story, and not really one that you could have predicted.
[19:22.150 --> 19:27.990]  The thing that keeps striking me is kind of the unintended consequences that come up all the time, right?
[19:28.050 --> 19:37.310]  You look at the AT&T engineers trying to build an automated long-distance telephone system so that people can directly dial long-distance calls.
[19:37.450 --> 19:40.710]  They can make calls faster and, you know, have the whole thing work a little bit better.
[19:40.950 --> 19:42.610]  And there ends up being this flaw in it.
[19:42.650 --> 19:50.970]  And this flaw allows people not just to make free phone calls, but in some ways to take control of the telephone system and to do things that normally only an operator would be able to do.
[19:51.230 --> 19:57.910]  And it just ends up having, you know, the cliche about, you know, the butterfly flapping its wings and you end up with, you know, hurricanes later.
[19:58.170 --> 20:06.030]  All these things end up coming from that, you know, and AT&T ends up doing this warrantless wiretapping campaign to try and figure out how many people are doing it.
[20:06.170 --> 20:07.570]  The mob gets involved.
[20:08.030 --> 20:10.230]  You know, the yippies get involved.
[20:10.490 --> 20:11.390]  It's really quite incredible.
[20:11.670 --> 20:14.190]  Now, you mentioned the Achilles heel.
[20:14.590 --> 20:18.670]  Now, I think the phone company, and it was the phone company back then.
[20:18.790 --> 20:21.170]  It was Ma Bell, AT&T, one company.
[20:21.690 --> 20:23.510]  They had more than one Achilles heel, didn't they?
[20:23.570 --> 20:36.570]  They had the whole MF tones using blue boxes, things like that, but they also had the red box using a very simple frequency to make as many free pay phone calls as you could possibly want.
[20:36.950 --> 20:40.490]  Yeah, they certainly did have multiple vulnerabilities in their network.
[20:40.690 --> 20:51.450]  And I mean, you know, if you think about it now, there's so many, when you deploy any network technology, right, and immediately people start playing with it and hacking at it and, you know, pretty soon you quickly realize, oh my gosh, there's this hole that I got to fix in this hole.
[20:52.070 --> 20:55.810]  And, you know, these guys, these guys, meaning the AT&T people, they didn't know from phone freaks.
[20:55.870 --> 20:56.610]  They didn't know from hackers.
[20:56.850 --> 21:00.290]  They're really, you know, these were the first network hackers, the phone freaks.
[21:00.550 --> 21:03.050]  And so you can kind of forgive them for deploying the system.
[21:03.170 --> 21:17.510]  But, you know, the big Achilles heel was they had built this system for long distance calling where the tones for controlling the calls and the tones for controlling whether or not billing had started were all sent over the same wires as your voice.
[21:17.630 --> 21:28.730]  And so if you had the ability to mimic those Either by building something like a blue box or by, if you were good, by whistling, you could actually, you know, make free calls and reroute your calls and do all sorts of things.
[21:29.310 --> 21:29.850]  All right.
[21:30.070 --> 21:30.950]  At this... what was that?
[21:31.710 --> 21:33.190]  I heard a 2600 hertz tone.
[21:33.230 --> 21:34.330]  I heard a 2600 hertz tone.
[21:34.510 --> 21:35.410]  Barney, what are you doing?
[21:36.050 --> 21:38.750]  Oh, I'm playing with a tone generator.
[21:38.950 --> 21:40.450]  You got a Captain Crunch whistle, don't you?
[21:40.930 --> 21:41.310]  Mm-hmm.
[21:41.750 --> 21:42.170]  All right.
[21:42.230 --> 21:45.170]  No, I'm running a little... I'm actually... I'm cheating.
[21:45.350 --> 21:49.030]  I'm using a computer program that generates 2600 hertz.
[21:50.090 --> 21:51.090]  And MF tones.
[21:51.350 --> 21:53.150]  Oh, that's kind of sad that...
[21:54.170 --> 21:55.470]  We'll get into this in a moment.
[21:55.570 --> 21:57.150]  We have all kinds of sounds to play.
[21:57.270 --> 22:01.510]  But I wanted to give out the phone number for people that are interested in this book because it is an amazing book.
[22:01.750 --> 22:05.490]  We've just been... we have a couple of copies here at the station.
[22:05.630 --> 22:06.670]  We've been poring through it.
[22:07.350 --> 22:09.830]  And every chapter is really fascinating.
[22:10.770 --> 22:15.930]  And we're offering it tonight as a premium in two different levels for a pledge of $75.
[22:16.390 --> 22:18.630]  Let me first of all give you the phone number because it's a different phone number.
[22:18.630 --> 22:20.930]  You want to write down the phone number so you have it in front of you.
[22:21.250 --> 22:23.530]  It's 516 area code.
[22:25.490 --> 22:28.550]  516-620-3602.
[22:29.670 --> 22:31.590]  It's complete... we have a different system now.
[22:31.790 --> 22:35.570]  We have people in a different location taking phone calls.
[22:35.650 --> 22:37.010]  So we have a different phone number.
[22:37.170 --> 22:38.870]  And it's all new.
[22:39.070 --> 22:39.650]  It's something we're trying.
[22:39.730 --> 22:40.770]  So hopefully it'll be successful.
[22:41.010 --> 22:42.650]  That's really... it's up to you, our listeners.
[22:42.650 --> 22:47.850]  The number is 516-620-3602.
[22:48.210 --> 22:51.290]  And what we're offering... we're offering for a pledge of $75.
[22:51.290 --> 22:56.150]  We're offering a copy of this massive book, Exploding the Phone.
[22:56.470 --> 22:57.430]  Heavy book.
[22:57.730 --> 22:58.730]  400 pages plus.
[22:58.930 --> 23:00.190]  By Phil Lapsley.
[23:00.330 --> 23:06.610]  All about the phone freaks, teenagers, outlaws that fought against Ma Bell.
[23:06.610 --> 23:08.170]  What the technology was all about.
[23:08.450 --> 23:09.050]  A lot of history.
[23:09.190 --> 23:11.050]  Things that really we need to know.
[23:11.190 --> 23:12.030]  We need to preserve this.
[23:12.150 --> 23:13.110]  We need to educate people.
[23:13.550 --> 23:20.390]  In addition to that, you get a 60-minute spoof card that was donated to us by the spoof card people.
[23:20.510 --> 23:23.750]  Does anybody want to describe what a spoof card is briefly?
[23:24.030 --> 23:28.730]  So it's like these prepaid calling cards that you can just buy and make long-distance calls.
[23:28.770 --> 23:30.890]  But it has extra special features.
[23:30.890 --> 23:33.150]  It can disguise your caller ID.
[23:33.490 --> 23:34.810]  It can disguise your voice.
[23:36.170 --> 23:39.030]  And you can just do all these things right from your phone.
[23:39.190 --> 23:39.430]  Yeah.
[23:39.570 --> 23:44.190]  I mean, I don't want to say it's perfect for people that kidnap and do all kinds of horrible things.
[23:44.470 --> 23:48.570]  But it is something that would confuse anybody that's trying to track you down.
[23:49.210 --> 23:52.130]  It wouldn't prevent them from tracking you down if they really were...
[23:52.130 --> 23:53.670]  If it was like a Steve Rombon type of a thing.
[23:53.990 --> 23:59.950]  But you can call somebody from the White House because you can change your phone number to call from there.
[23:59.950 --> 24:02.790]  Or you could sound like the Unabomber or something.
[24:02.890 --> 24:03.930]  I can't know what he sounded like.
[24:04.010 --> 24:09.010]  But you know that voice that you get when you disguise your voice and say you've got to deliver the goods to this address.
[24:09.210 --> 24:10.790]  I don't think the Unabomber used telephones.
[24:10.790 --> 24:11.810]  He didn't use telephones, did he?
[24:11.990 --> 24:12.130]  No.
[24:12.810 --> 24:13.970]  He used a typewriter.
[24:14.370 --> 24:19.530]  I think you mean like the voice they use in movies when somebody's being held for ransom or something.
[24:19.530 --> 24:19.710]  Yeah.
[24:19.710 --> 24:21.210]  I don't want to just use the negative examples.
[24:21.230 --> 24:21.730]  But it's like a toolkit.
[24:21.730 --> 24:24.590]  I'm sure there's plenty of positive times when people have used that voice.
[24:24.750 --> 24:25.330]  It's a toolkit.
[24:25.330 --> 24:32.390]  There's lots of times you don't want various... if you're calling a complaint to a company or something, you don't want them to know your phone number.
[24:32.630 --> 24:34.250]  Or perhaps you need to...
[24:34.250 --> 24:36.590]  Yeah, but if you're talking about a Darth Vader type voice, what are they going to think?
[24:36.710 --> 24:39.710]  Well, I was thinking of features about changing your caller ID.
[24:39.710 --> 24:40.370]  Oh, the caller ID, yes.
[24:40.370 --> 24:42.190]  Well, it's a bunch of different tools, right?
[24:42.330 --> 24:43.250]  As Mike described.
[24:43.530 --> 24:44.530]  So that'd be useful.
[24:44.730 --> 24:46.350]  And changing your voice sometimes could be helpful.
[24:46.350 --> 24:48.710]  Maybe you need to call somebody and get some information.
[24:48.710 --> 24:49.630]  It's the kind of tool...
[24:49.630 --> 24:53.930]  Imagine if phone freaks of the 60s had had this kind of a tool, the fun they would have had with it.
[24:53.990 --> 24:55.570]  So it's a perfect complement to the book.
[24:55.690 --> 25:01.110]  So for a pledge of $75, you get 60 minutes of that kind of fun in addition to the book.
[25:01.250 --> 25:03.710]  Again, the number is 516-620-3602.
[25:04.270 --> 25:09.110]  Now, we also have a $125 level, which gets you the book, gets you the spoof card.
[25:09.110 --> 25:22.770]  It gets you 15 DVDs filled with talks about phone freaking and the old phone network and some current things as well that's taken from the nine home conferences that we've had over the years.
[25:22.890 --> 25:30.790]  That's for a pledge of $125, 15 DVDs, spoof card, and a brand new book, 516-620-3602.
[25:31.310 --> 25:36.990]  We don't see the phones ringing anymore, but we do get emails that get sent to us.
[25:36.990 --> 25:39.770]  And what we can do is we'll see people calling in.
[25:39.870 --> 25:42.010]  If you want to be thanked on the air, we will thank you on the air.
[25:42.270 --> 25:43.230]  It's a new system.
[25:43.350 --> 25:45.570]  Bear with us as we get used to it.
[25:45.670 --> 25:52.650]  But one thing that would certainly help us test out this system and know that it's working properly is to get a bunch of calls.
[25:52.830 --> 25:58.330]  So please, if you're interested in this subject matter, call up now.
[25:58.470 --> 26:00.690]  For a pledge of $75, you get the book and the spoof card.
[26:00.690 --> 26:07.670]  Or for a pledge of $125, you get the book, the spoof card, and 15 DVDs filled with information about phone freaking and Ma Bell and all that.
[26:07.990 --> 26:10.870]  516-620-3602.
[26:11.450 --> 26:11.870]  Emmanuel.
[26:12.070 --> 26:12.570]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[26:13.170 --> 26:15.230]  What is the origin of this radio show?
[26:15.770 --> 26:17.530]  The origin of this radio show?
[26:18.350 --> 26:19.590]  Okay, this is a trick question.
[26:19.770 --> 26:23.010]  The origin... you mean the... off the hook, the noise?
[26:23.010 --> 26:31.130]  Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, and what's the... I mean, what was... what was this show... what were the ideas around this show when it started back in, what, 1988?
[26:31.490 --> 26:33.150]  1988 was when we did a special.
[26:33.870 --> 26:44.470]  And, yeah, what we did was we went on the air talking about telephones and various ways, conferencing, new services that were being offered.
[26:44.470 --> 26:46.930]  And it came about through 2600 Magazine.
[26:47.010 --> 26:49.310]  That's what we've been involved with since 1984.
[26:50.270 --> 26:56.450]  We found there was a tremendous interest in technology based on telephones and eventually computers.
[26:57.490 --> 27:00.890]  And we wanted to get out to the people to talk to them about this.
[27:00.950 --> 27:03.570]  That's why you don't have to be a phone freak to appreciate this.
[27:03.710 --> 27:07.470]  You don't have to be a phone freak to read the book or to ask a bunch of questions or to learn.
[27:07.470 --> 27:15.410]  You just have to be somebody that notices things, that appreciates things, that is curious, and it's a tremendous benefit.
[27:15.690 --> 27:17.690]  516-620-3602.
[27:17.730 --> 27:19.010]  Did I answer your question properly, Bernie?
[27:19.650 --> 27:20.730]  I think you did.
[27:20.830 --> 27:28.810]  I mean, we have discussed phone freaking and freaks and phone freaking culture on this show for a long, long time.
[27:28.810 --> 27:42.710]  And I am just overjoyed that Phil has devoted, as I say, the better part of a decade of his life to this labor of love, putting together this 400-plus-page hardcover book about the history of phone freaking.
[27:42.910 --> 27:49.230]  Because, you know, I'm an aficionado of this information, but there's a lot of stuff in this book I did not know about.
[27:49.770 --> 27:53.170]  And there's just some great, great stories in this book.
[27:54.050 --> 27:55.210]  This is just amazing.
[27:55.430 --> 28:00.090]  This is like the holy grail for anybody who's interested in telecommunications to have this book.
[28:00.410 --> 28:10.030]  And I thank Phil for putting it together and for doing all the work and the research and the hundreds of FOIA requests he put in and coming on this show.
[28:10.350 --> 28:23.730]  And I think it's a perfect thing to offer listeners to this radio show who have stuck with us all these years and be interested in this topic, that they can support the show and get a copy of Phil's book and a spoof card, which is a neat, fun thing to play with,
[28:24.250 --> 28:32.490]  and a whole set of DVDs, a 50 DVDs about freaking by calling area code 516-620-3602.
[28:32.490 --> 28:34.810]  This is a perfect combination to support this station.
[28:35.110 --> 28:35.690]  Yes, indeed.
[28:35.910 --> 28:37.590]  And I've been looking through this book.
[28:37.810 --> 28:40.590]  And although, you know, although I...
[28:40.590 --> 28:42.430]  Okay, I know a lot about the technical side of phone freaking.
[28:42.570 --> 28:43.870]  I've been a phone freak for a long time.
[28:43.870 --> 29:03.670]  But this book is written so that not only am I learning things that I didn't know in the, you know, 20-whatever years that I've been studying this stuff, but the way that it's written and the way that Phil has of putting these things out there, it just brings things to the surface at a level where you don't even need to be particularly technical to appreciate this.
[29:03.770 --> 29:07.110]  It's good for people who are just a bit curious about these things.
[29:07.110 --> 29:10.090]  It's good for people who maybe want to learn a little more about these things.
[29:10.090 --> 29:15.570]  But it's at that level where it's... and it doesn't talk down to you or anything like that.
[29:15.670 --> 29:23.510]  But what it does is it presents the information in really neat, easy to appreciate, easy to digest sorts of ways.
[29:23.710 --> 29:26.530]  And this is a book that, you know, I could give my mom to read.
[29:27.190 --> 29:28.710]  And she's not particularly technical.
[29:28.910 --> 29:32.810]  This is a book... this is also a book, though, that as a technical person, I'm getting a whole lot out of.
[29:32.810 --> 29:35.010]  So it really works on all those levels.
[29:35.210 --> 29:43.870]  And you could get a copy if you call us at 516-620-3602 and pledge at least $75 and you'll get the SPOF card.
[29:44.090 --> 29:50.370]  And I'd like to know who will be our first caller because we have yet to actually use this brand new system.
[29:50.670 --> 29:57.450]  And I'm watching a page on the computer next to me that's supposed to alert me when somebody makes a pledge.
[29:58.530 --> 30:01.630]  And we'll either thank that person or not thank them depending on what they request.
[30:01.810 --> 30:06.950]  But please let us see a bunch of people calling in because I want to see this system work.
[30:07.070 --> 30:08.470]  I'm curious about how it works myself.
[30:09.730 --> 30:12.050]  516-620-3602 is the phone number.
[30:12.190 --> 30:13.450]  Again, this is a tremendous deal.
[30:13.550 --> 30:15.190]  It's only being offered for this one hour.
[30:15.290 --> 30:17.090]  In fact, there's only a half hour of it left right now.
[30:17.570 --> 30:23.110]  $75, you get a brand new book on phone freaking, which is something years in the making.
[30:23.790 --> 30:25.450]  And just simply incredible.
[30:25.530 --> 30:26.590]  You will not put this down.
[30:26.590 --> 30:32.750]  You'll get a 60-minute spoof card as well, which how much fun you have with that is completely up to you.
[30:32.950 --> 30:41.430]  And for a pledge of $125, you get all of that plus 15 DVDs all about phone freaking and the hacker world and some incredible things.
[30:41.810 --> 30:44.570]  Again, 516-620-3602.
[30:44.570 --> 30:50.570]  I hope to see that screen light up with people calling in on this brand new system.
[30:50.670 --> 30:52.830]  516-620-3602.
[30:52.830 --> 30:59.930]  Phil, now, to speak to what Rob was saying, did you write this with a broad audience in mind?
[31:00.790 --> 31:01.830]  It's a great question.
[31:01.830 --> 31:04.250]  And it was something I really struggled with for a while.
[31:04.950 --> 31:06.470]  You know, I'm a technical guy.
[31:06.610 --> 31:08.170]  I'm an engineer by training.
[31:08.430 --> 31:12.270]  And, you know, one of my goals was to write something that would be technically accurate.
[31:12.270 --> 31:18.030]  But at the same time, you know, the thing which really struck me about phone freaking is it's such an interesting story.
[31:18.030 --> 31:24.830]  And it would be better if more people were able to, you know, read it and hear about it and learn about it.
[31:25.150 --> 31:30.350]  And so, you know, the two things is I wanted it to be technically accurate and historically accurate.
[31:30.350 --> 31:34.630]  But I also wanted it to be accessible, you know, to a broad base of people, right?
[31:34.650 --> 31:38.470]  So it makes me very happy to hear that somebody could give it to their mom and they'd be able to understand it.
[31:38.930 --> 31:45.670]  But one of the things I did, and the way I kind of worked around this, was by putting a really thick section of notes at the back.
[31:45.750 --> 31:50.150]  And I don't think I've ever said to somebody, you should really read the notes in this book.
[31:50.150 --> 31:52.190]  But you should really read the notes in this book.
[31:52.230 --> 31:58.390]  Because if you're interested in this stuff and a little bit technical, this is where all the technical stuff is going to be.
[31:58.390 --> 32:11.530]  And in a lot of cases, not just is there notes in the back of the book, but there will actually be these things we call DB numbers, which are direct links to my website on explodingthephone.com, where you can actually see the original document.
[32:11.730 --> 32:23.990]  So, for example, when I talk about, you know, how Bell Labs wrote a memo in 1971 after the Esquire article came out, talking about, you know, well, here's what we think about this article and what are we going to do about it.
[32:23.990 --> 32:31.450]  And, you know, with a few mouse clicks, you can actually be reading that very memo, the same memo that I read, because I scanned in all these documents, and I have them on the web now.
[32:31.870 --> 32:32.130]  Wow.
[32:33.470 --> 32:43.190]  The other thing, though, which took some work for me was, you know, somebody said to me, a friend told me, he said, tell stories, because stories are what people really respond to.
[32:43.290 --> 32:44.710]  And so that's what I've really tried to do.
[32:45.110 --> 32:50.530]  And, you know, a lot of these, a lot of these, the chapters really boil down to stories about people.
[32:50.530 --> 32:55.850]  And that's, I think, what really makes it a lot more accessible to people who are, you know, not hardcore phone freaks.
[32:57.330 --> 33:06.430]  We're speaking with Phil Lapsley, author of the book, Exploding the Phone, the untold story of the teenagers and outlaws who hacked Ma Bell.
[33:06.970 --> 33:15.250]  A fascinating read, all kinds of history to be learned here, all kinds of technical information from the past into the present.
[33:15.890 --> 33:23.890]  Something that really is the backbone of what we've been doing for so many years, both at the HOPE conferences and on this particular radio program and in the magazine, of course.
[33:24.490 --> 33:36.390]  It's yours for a pledge of $75, along with a special 60-minute spoof card that will allow you to disguise your voice on the phone and send fake caller ID and also just make regular phone calls, too, if you're so inclined.
[33:36.510 --> 33:39.050]  But who makes regular phone calls anymore?
[33:40.690 --> 33:44.470]  Again, 516-620-3602 is the phone number.
[33:44.670 --> 33:47.830]  Now, I'm not sure if the emails are slow getting to us.
[33:47.910 --> 33:50.970]  We can see the phones ringing, so I kind of don't like that.
[33:51.030 --> 33:52.510]  We don't know if a lot of people are calling in.
[33:52.610 --> 33:56.370]  Maybe they're just writing down all their names and they haven't emailed us yet.
[33:56.830 --> 34:04.250]  But please, take pity on us and call now so that we can at least see a few names come in and know that the system is working.
[34:04.250 --> 34:06.110]  516-620-3602.
[34:06.130 --> 34:08.050]  Again, $75, you get the book, the spoof card.
[34:08.450 --> 34:14.450]  $125, you get the book, the spoof card, and 15 DVDs on the world of phone freaking taken from the H.O.P.
[34:14.510 --> 34:14.850]  conferences.
[34:15.150 --> 34:33.150]  But of course, most importantly, you get the radio station, which is the only place that we could find that would give us this kind of voice and this kind of avenue to take things like the mysterious world of phones and computers and technology and bring them out into the world and try and break things down so that more folks know what's going on.
[34:33.150 --> 34:37.970]  That's absolutely the reason to do it in the first place is to support the radio station, keep us going.
[34:38.490 --> 34:40.270]  And, you know, we are making changes.
[34:40.970 --> 34:45.050]  We're ditching this place, which is a money pit as far as rent goes.
[34:45.290 --> 34:47.350]  We're looking to buy a building of our own.
[34:47.530 --> 34:52.790]  We're moving into the 21st century and it's going to be interesting and we want you to come with us.
[34:53.250 --> 34:59.950]  The way to help, the way to invest in the place is to call 516-620-3602 and pledge the amounts that we've talked about.
[34:59.950 --> 35:02.810]  Now, what I'd like to do now, I'd like to play an excerpt from one of the talks.
[35:02.830 --> 35:08.250]  We have a whole bunch of talks that we're offering, as we said, for the 125 level, 15 DVDs.
[35:08.650 --> 35:11.470]  And this is a piece from just one of them.
[35:11.790 --> 35:18.770]  It comes from a panel that was put on in the Fifth Hope, which was in the year 2004.
[35:19.350 --> 35:23.270]  It was hosted by Cheshire Catalyst, our good friend Cheshire, and Captain Crunch.
[35:23.710 --> 35:25.870]  And it's called Freaking in the Early Days.
[35:25.870 --> 35:30.650]  Let's listen to a little bit of what the early days of phone freaking was all about.
[35:31.470 --> 35:35.790]  Again, our phone number, 516-620-3602.
[35:35.990 --> 35:37.530]  Let's jam those phone lines.
[35:37.690 --> 35:39.070]  Pledge whatever you can afford.
[35:39.190 --> 35:39.710]  Get the book.
[35:39.830 --> 35:40.670]  Get the spoof card.
[35:40.790 --> 35:41.510]  Get the DVDs.
[35:41.590 --> 35:44.110]  516-620-3602.
[35:44.190 --> 35:45.830]  Let's go back to 2004.
[35:45.830 --> 35:53.770]  The way I like to tell the story, when you placed, and I'm going to use past tense, because remember, blue boxes are just totally obsolete now.
[35:53.930 --> 36:00.970]  The only reason 2600 has the shirts with the blue box schematics on them is because they're cool, yes.
[36:01.250 --> 36:03.890]  But the thing is, people still wanted the schematic.
[36:04.310 --> 36:13.630]  And the question was, how to provide the schematic, provide value for money, and know that it was totally useless to you as a schematic.
[36:13.910 --> 36:16.770]  So they printed it on the t-shirt to make it a cool t-shirt.
[36:17.190 --> 36:37.670]  And of course, up in the corner is the littler schematic of the black box, the drawing from Abbie Hoffman's book, Steal This Book, where on page 87, he explains how a black box works, but you'll have to find the disgruntled New England telephone engineer to find the actual schematic.
[36:37.950 --> 36:40.790]  And turn the page to 88, and there's the schematic.
[36:42.590 --> 36:57.890]  When you placed a long-distance phone call, your telephone, your touch-tone telephone, produced a certain set of frequencies that told the central office, incoming register, where you wanted your call to go.
[36:58.710 --> 37:04.710]  It would pass that information on to the trunk equipment that would pass along the phone call.
[37:05.670 --> 37:20.250]  A blue box, well, when you ask the operator to place the call for you, she was at a higher level than your central office, and her touch-tone pad put out a different set of frequencies that directly controlled the long lines equipment.
[37:20.550 --> 37:20.970]  Right.
[37:20.970 --> 37:24.950]  This is at a trunk level, as opposed to a subscriber level.
[37:27.030 --> 37:33.950]  So, the blue box operator basically has a touch-tone pad with the operator's frequencies.
[37:35.370 --> 37:40.710]  Now, to place a blue box call, actually, should we take this story here?
[37:40.730 --> 37:48.130]  In fact, I'd like to start off here by giving you guys a little course on how the blue box works, and I also have a special treat.
[37:48.310 --> 37:52.230]  I have the biggest tandem stack ever on recording.
[37:52.630 --> 37:56.870]  And as a special treat tonight, I'm going to give you what it's all about.
[37:56.870 --> 38:01.510]  You get to actually experience the thrill of the use of a blue box.
[38:02.330 --> 38:06.030]  This tape was... this tape... I want to give credit where the credit is due.
[38:06.250 --> 38:09.150]  This I obtained from Richard Cashton.
[38:09.810 --> 38:11.350]  Richard Cashton's website.
[38:11.510 --> 38:14.010]  He used to be Mark Bernet back in the old days.
[38:14.610 --> 38:17.790]  Well, Richard Cashton has a website called PhoneTrips.
[38:18.650 --> 38:21.990]  Wideweb.net or wideweb.com slash phone trips.
[38:22.110 --> 38:24.730]  And I believe that this recording was from that.
[38:24.730 --> 38:28.170]  I have special permission from Richard to have you hear this tonight.
[38:28.730 --> 38:30.970]  Audio people, are you ready to patch in the audio?
[38:31.110 --> 38:31.730]  Here we go.
[38:32.250 --> 38:38.870]  Step one was to get onto the long-distance network, usually by just simply dialing a long-distance call.
[38:39.310 --> 38:46.210]  Anything that was more than about 75 miles out would go over a type of carrier system that would respond to 2600.
[38:53.480 --> 39:02.560]  By the way, what you're hearing there is a number one crossbar subscriber-level line.
[39:03.480 --> 39:05.040]  These do not exist anymore.
[39:17.580 --> 39:20.060]  The number that's ringing at this point doesn't matter.
[39:20.300 --> 39:27.340]  What's important is that this call has gone over a trunk from New York to a distant 4A, which can be reset by 2600.
[39:32.850 --> 39:34.590]  That's the supervision handshake.
[39:34.750 --> 39:35.810]  Off hook, on hook.
[39:35.810 --> 39:39.150]  And now it's waiting for new digits, which Ben will supply.
[39:42.710 --> 39:48.190]  Stopping the tape now, what he dialed was 216-054-064.
[39:48.610 --> 39:50.690]  These are old routing codes.
[39:50.950 --> 39:57.030]  The network of the 1970s had routing codes for tandems in all major cities.
[39:57.550 --> 40:02.970]  The first code, 216-054, is the routing code for Youngstown, Ohio.
[40:02.970 --> 40:10.170]  The 064 in the area code of 216 is the routing code for Canton, Ohio.
[40:10.690 --> 40:12.630]  Both of these are crossbar tandems.
[40:13.050 --> 40:22.210]  When Ben keys in this sequence, the 4A into which he is keying picks up the trunk to Youngstown, Ohio and sends 064.
[40:23.570 --> 40:28.430]  That tick is the 4A cutting through to Youngstown, Ohio after having sent 064.
[40:29.290 --> 40:32.090]  Now what does Youngstown do with the 064?
[40:32.090 --> 40:34.510]  Well, it picks up a trunk to Canton.
[40:34.770 --> 40:36.010]  That's the code for Canton.
[40:36.410 --> 40:44.930]  But having been sent only the routing code and no digits to follow it, it simply dumps us into the Canton trunk without sending anything.
[40:45.350 --> 40:47.210]  In other words, it stacks.
[40:48.850 --> 40:52.410]  That's the sound of Youngstown, Ohio dumping us into a trunk to Canton.
[40:54.290 --> 40:56.330]  And that's the handshake from Canton.
[40:56.670 --> 40:59.710]  Canton, Ohio is now ready to receive digits.
[41:04.500 --> 41:05.780]  That's 054064.
[41:06.160 --> 41:10.480]  This causes Canton to pick up a trunk to Youngstown and send 064.
[41:11.900 --> 41:20.320]  Now we're in Youngstown again, which stacks into Canton and then Canton gives us the handshake.
[41:20.520 --> 41:22.720]  And we'll do another 054064.
[41:26.040 --> 41:27.580]  Now we're in Youngstown again.
[41:28.500 --> 41:29.920]  Youngstown stacks to Canton.
[41:32.740 --> 41:33.800]  That's the handshake.
[41:34.100 --> 41:34.740]  And here we go again.
[41:37.300 --> 41:38.120]  Same digits.
[41:38.800 --> 41:39.300]  Youngstown.
[41:39.840 --> 41:40.260]  Canton.
[41:42.940 --> 41:43.440]  Handshake.
[41:46.080 --> 41:49.340]  Now the connection has gotten so long that the handshake is all you can hear.
[41:52.060 --> 41:57.840]  Now on that supervision flash, you could really hear multiple links, both on the off hook and the on hook.
[42:00.300 --> 42:01.460]  He's going around again.
[42:05.440 --> 42:08.660]  That was such a short flash that you didn't get to hear all the on hooks.
[42:12.360 --> 42:19.140]  You've been listening to the beginning of the original 1975 tape, stretched, to allow me to describe what's going on.
[42:19.580 --> 42:23.100]  Let me go back and play this part again without stopping to talk on it.
[42:52.180 --> 42:53.720]  By the way, I wanted to say one thing.
[42:54.360 --> 42:58.220]  There are two tones at the beginning and at the end.
[42:58.700 --> 43:00.800]  One is called the key pulse and the other is start.
[43:01.060 --> 43:02.740]  And the announcer failed to mention that.
[43:31.030 --> 43:32.490]  Okay, I'm going to fade this down now.
[43:32.650 --> 43:34.450]  It's music to my ears, for sure.
[43:35.450 --> 43:38.810]  And Rob, you mentioned while we were playing this how much you missed these sounds.
[43:38.990 --> 43:42.250]  Not necessarily the sounds of phone freaking, but the sounds of all the clicking of relays.
[43:42.750 --> 43:46.710]  Yeah, just the general clicks and stuff that you used to hear whenever you dialed long distance.
[43:47.670 --> 43:49.070]  You don't hear it anymore.
[43:49.170 --> 43:49.710]  You don't hear it anymore.
[43:49.830 --> 43:57.170]  That was an excerpt from one of the 15 talks that we're offering for a pledge of $125 in addition to the book and the spoof card.
[43:57.630 --> 43:59.990]  That particular panel was Telephone...
[43:59.990 --> 44:01.290]  Not Telephone Systems of the World.
[44:01.390 --> 44:04.210]  That was Freaking in the Early Days by Captain Crunch and Cheshire Catalyst.
[44:04.310 --> 44:07.790]  Telephone Systems of the World is another talk by the late, great Bill SF.
[44:07.930 --> 44:19.310]  And there are just so many other talks that we're offering from hacking CDMA PRLs to boxing, cellular cloning, Project MF, Phone Freaking 101.
[44:20.210 --> 44:21.950]  We can just go on and on about this.
[44:22.030 --> 44:27.310]  But the important thing is that there's a lot of content here, a lot of information to learn.
[44:27.470 --> 44:41.850]  If you call 516-620-3602, pledge $125, you'll get all 15 of those talks plus the brand new just released book Exploding the Phone by Phil Lapsley and also a one-hour spoof card.
[44:42.070 --> 44:44.690]  And you can get just the latter two for a pledge of $75.
[44:44.690 --> 44:47.690]  But again, the phone number 516-620-3602.
[44:47.810 --> 44:48.830]  We are getting some calls.
[44:48.970 --> 44:50.790]  I see them coming in on the email system.
[44:51.570 --> 44:53.670]  We don't know how long ago they called in, though.
[44:53.830 --> 44:56.250]  So please keep calling.
[44:56.390 --> 45:00.730]  Please keep calling so we can say thanks to as many people as possible before the hour is over.
[45:00.890 --> 45:07.730]  I do want to read very quickly before we introduce somebody else something from the book, Exploding the Phone.
[45:09.110 --> 45:15.150]  Basically, we're talking about one of the phone freaks that Phil Lapsley interviewed.
[45:16.270 --> 45:21.110]  And this particular phone freak is Bill Acker.
[45:22.110 --> 45:25.770]  And where it was at for Acker was technology.
[45:26.460 --> 45:29.430]  He had been fascinated with technology for as long as he could remember.
[45:29.630 --> 45:32.990]  As a kid, going outside was almost like a punishment, he says.
[45:32.990 --> 45:34.390]  There was nothing from the outside.
[45:34.570 --> 45:35.870]  There was no technology outside.
[45:36.270 --> 45:37.170]  Ah, but inside.
[45:37.350 --> 45:40.590]  Inside, there was AM radio, shortwave radio, television.
[45:41.310 --> 45:45.450]  Acker spent much of his childhood learning about radios, how they work, and how to make them work better.
[45:45.970 --> 45:46.510]  DXing.
[45:46.830 --> 45:53.090]  Hunting down radio signals from places as distant as possible was the equivalent of collecting baseball cards for young Bill Acker.
[45:53.470 --> 45:57.910]  DXing required patience, perseverance, and a solid understanding of how radio worked.
[45:58.250 --> 46:00.190]  Acker had these qualities in spades.
[46:00.390 --> 46:04.750]  Before he became a teenager, Acker needed almost no sleep and didn't like staying in bed.
[46:04.930 --> 46:11.450]  There was an unspoken understanding so long as I didn't disturb anybody, I could stay up late or wake up really early like 3.30 a.m.
[46:11.550 --> 46:12.610]  and do whatever I wanted.
[46:12.930 --> 46:19.630]  So on many occasions, Acker tuned old radios and searched for faint transmissions from faraway places in the wee hours of the morning.
[46:21.130 --> 46:28.630]  In 1963, when Acker was 10 years old, his mother thought her son needed to get out more, so she pushed for him to attend a camp in Vermont.
[46:28.990 --> 46:36.930]  He reluctantly agreed to go, but only because he saw it as an opportunity to bring his radio and hear new DX signals from places he hadn't been to.
[46:37.810 --> 46:43.370]  And he came from Farmingdale, Long Island, so a chance to hear new radio signals from different places.
[46:43.950 --> 46:46.830]  I remember being five or six years old, picking up the phone.
[46:47.570 --> 46:58.690]  If you picked up the phone and you waited for the dial tone to go away, he said you got a high tone, a loud, incessant tone that indicated you had left your phone off the hook and that reminded you to hang it up, designed to get your attention.
[46:59.150 --> 47:01.590]  And that tone succeeded in getting Acker's attention.
[47:01.790 --> 47:02.410]  It intrigued him.
[47:02.550 --> 47:03.130]  What was it?
[47:03.210 --> 47:03.930]  How did it work?
[47:04.410 --> 47:05.790]  These are amazing things.
[47:05.910 --> 47:06.810]  These speak to me.
[47:07.750 --> 47:20.270]  These are attributes that so many people that I know have, this curiosity, this wanting to play with things, wanting to learn more about particular bits of technology, something so many people don't get.
[47:20.370 --> 47:22.270]  They think you're wasting your time, but you're really not.
[47:22.270 --> 47:23.250]  You're learning so much.
[47:23.250 --> 47:29.610]  And it's just, it's great to see this in the written word in this particular book, Exploding the Phone.
[47:29.770 --> 47:31.890]  And Bill Acker, you're joining us now, are you not?
[47:32.610 --> 47:33.570]  I certainly am.
[47:33.810 --> 47:34.150]  Great.
[47:34.330 --> 47:35.450]  And where are you located right now?
[47:35.730 --> 47:36.110]  Denver.
[47:36.390 --> 47:36.790]  Denver.
[47:36.970 --> 47:37.450]  Okay, great.
[47:37.610 --> 47:39.730]  Well, you have the best sounding phone connection of all.
[47:39.930 --> 47:42.790]  Well, it's a Tone Commander 610 on ISDN.
[47:43.010 --> 47:46.590]  So, you know, 300, 500 series phones are fun.
[47:46.590 --> 47:48.090]  And I have, I collect them actually.
[47:48.090 --> 47:55.270]  If they have the old-fashioned 425E networks, please don't take one apart.
[47:55.450 --> 47:56.550]  Don't take the network apart.
[47:56.690 --> 47:57.330]  You'll regret it.
[47:57.450 --> 47:59.130]  You'll really regret it.
[47:59.230 --> 47:59.970]  Yes, absolutely.
[48:00.690 --> 48:02.510]  And I have a question for Bernie.
[48:03.050 --> 48:04.370]  Bernie, are you on a smartphone?
[48:05.870 --> 48:07.170]  Unfortunately, I am, yes.
[48:07.450 --> 48:08.570]  Well, no, that's a good thing.
[48:08.710 --> 48:13.750]  Go download a VoIP application, and the next time you call a radio station, please use it.
[48:14.030 --> 48:14.670]  Please, Bernie.
[48:15.330 --> 48:17.550]  Well, it's a really old smartphone, so it doesn't...
[48:17.550 --> 48:18.110]  Update the phone.
[48:18.210 --> 48:19.230]  It doesn't have that ability to...
[48:19.230 --> 48:19.370]  Update it.
[48:19.830 --> 48:20.510]  Get a new phone.
[48:20.590 --> 48:21.010]  Thank you.
[48:21.170 --> 48:21.710]  Bill, thank you.
[48:21.830 --> 48:24.890]  We've been trying for so long to get him to do this, and it's just, yeah.
[48:25.030 --> 48:26.390]  Call me for recommendations.
[48:27.210 --> 48:27.910]  Okay, I'll do that.
[48:28.170 --> 48:28.730]  I've got your network.
[48:29.570 --> 48:30.670]  Well, everybody does.
[48:30.970 --> 48:32.270]  So, Bill, tell...
[48:32.270 --> 48:32.990]  It's in the book.
[48:33.190 --> 48:33.470]  Yeah.
[48:33.590 --> 48:34.590]  It's in the book, yes.
[48:34.710 --> 48:35.210]  It's in the book.
[48:36.030 --> 48:37.970]  So that's actually worth talking about for a second.
[48:38.450 --> 48:40.850]  I couldn't resist putting some Easter eggs in the book.
[48:41.450 --> 48:48.870]  And so if you go through the book and you look, you'll occasionally find, oh, say, the occasional phone number, and some of those phone numbers are worth calling.
[48:49.110 --> 48:52.770]  Some of them are disconnected, but you might get treasure at the end of one of those lines.
[48:52.950 --> 48:56.990]  Well, one number worth calling right now is 516-620-3602.
[48:57.110 --> 49:04.450]  That is how we're able to have discussions like this on the radio, on a huge radio station in the middle of New York City, because that's kind of a hack in and of itself.
[49:05.010 --> 49:10.670]  Your pledge and your support helps keep it going and helps us make it through another year.
[49:11.410 --> 49:13.110]  516-620-3602.
[49:13.230 --> 49:17.210]  We're offering this incredible book filled with all sorts of stories of the people that we're talking to tonight.
[49:17.450 --> 49:19.490]  So let us talk to them some more.
[49:19.630 --> 49:29.230]  If you call us up, 516-620-3602, and pledge either 75 or 125, you will be able to keep conversations like this on WBAI.
[49:30.310 --> 49:36.230]  Now, Bill, what do you think of the way the phone network has changed over the years, how it is right now?
[49:36.250 --> 49:37.630]  Is it a good thing, a bad thing?
[49:37.630 --> 49:45.030]  Well, you might have gotten an unintended, but certainly a good hint of it by what I just said to Bernie.
[49:45.930 --> 49:51.070]  I'm so sorry to hear all this wonderful stuff or to not hear it, except thanks to Wide Web.
[49:51.070 --> 49:54.650]  I get to hear lots of it, not to mention my own tapes as well.
[49:55.710 --> 50:06.130]  But anyway, the way I phone freak these days is by building voice over IP networks using Asterisk and FreeSwitch and, you know, whatever.
[50:06.390 --> 50:08.430]  In fact, FreeSwitch makes a marvelous soft phone.
[50:08.890 --> 50:10.270]  I run that on my laptop.
[50:10.530 --> 50:12.870]  And I do that.
[50:12.890 --> 50:14.210]  And so I'm happy.
[50:14.710 --> 50:21.010]  I'm, you know, Linux and Internet Protocol version 6 are my primary focus these days.
[50:22.250 --> 50:24.370]  So, you know, that's what I'm up to.
[50:25.410 --> 50:25.930]  Awesome.
[50:26.670 --> 50:29.130]  Any stories you'd like to share with us?
[50:29.130 --> 50:33.190]  Were you ever in trouble with the authorities for playing with the phones too much?
[50:33.550 --> 50:34.150]  Well, yeah, a bit.
[50:34.290 --> 50:38.410]  I was indicted in the Middle District of Florida.
[50:39.230 --> 50:42.090]  That was a little less than fun.
[50:42.310 --> 50:48.090]  They dismissed the charges because they went about getting the evidence in a way that the judge wouldn't have appreciated.
[50:49.010 --> 50:53.810]  They used that, I think it's part of the Omnibus Crime Act.
[50:53.890 --> 50:54.770]  I need more coffee.
[50:56.690 --> 51:05.950]  Where they could listen to a phone call long enough to determine who was making the call, triggered by a 2,600 detector that they'd placed on a phone line.
[51:06.090 --> 51:09.410]  But that's all they could use is the information for.
[51:09.650 --> 51:11.010]  That's the very one.
[51:11.490 --> 51:11.890]  Absolutely.
[51:12.270 --> 51:13.110]  And yes...
[51:13.110 --> 51:14.710]  Bernie's doing that with a computer.
[51:14.890 --> 51:18.110]  Yeah, Bernie's doing that and I heard he sent one, two, three before.
[51:18.810 --> 51:24.790]  By the way, to get that smartphone, at least on Android, you can download a blue box application and that's a lot of fun.
[51:25.470 --> 51:25.870]  Awesome.
[51:27.450 --> 51:39.710]  And anyway, so, you know, it was only designed to determine who made the call and as a result, they couldn't use the information against me.
[51:39.870 --> 51:49.130]  It didn't help my buddy who called me but it certainly helped me and so I was not actually convicted but it was not fun.
[51:49.310 --> 51:50.350]  I can assure you it wasn't fun.
[51:50.730 --> 52:14.890]  I'm actually really in awe of the stuff that you guys got to do because a lot of the phone network had already been changed out into digital systems by the time I was a teenager and starting to even read about this stuff decades later when I sort of got introduced to 2600 and that kind of stuff but what I find is like getting involved at like reading about this stuff in history and getting
[52:14.890 --> 52:33.350]  involved at the telephone museum in Seattle I'm able to look at the older systems the electromechanical stuff and I find it But really, really instructive to implementing the kinds of software, like you're talking about FreeSwitch and some of the exciting modern stuff,
[52:33.650 --> 52:35.850]  for instance, with IPv6 or VoIP.
[52:36.630 --> 52:49.370]  So it's really good to go back, and even though I didn't actually get to do any of this stuff with the phone network, I vaguely remember the sound of the system being different when I was a lot younger.
[52:49.370 --> 52:55.110]  But it's really... it's mostly all just simulated as far as the sounds now.
[52:55.290 --> 52:58.470]  So they're there as a convention, a matter of convention only.
[52:58.710 --> 53:01.750]  And anyway, I'm in awe that you guys actually got to do it.
[53:01.830 --> 53:12.490]  And again, I just try to go back and learn myself and apply some of the structure of how the system works to my own interests in implementing some of the newer stuff.
[53:13.370 --> 53:19.530]  Yeah, and I loved being interviewed by Phil for the reason that I was able to relive it.
[53:19.710 --> 53:21.530]  And to me, that was so much fun.
[53:22.390 --> 53:23.710]  I can tell you how much fun.
[53:23.970 --> 53:25.570]  Quick question for Bill and Phil.
[53:25.730 --> 53:32.910]  Is it surprising to you that there is still this kind of interest in the stories of what you folks got up to so long ago?
[53:33.090 --> 53:36.930]  Like, did you think that you would still be talking about it so many years later?
[53:38.030 --> 53:46.950]  Well, if you were talking about back then, I was hoping to continue to do it, not realizing that the network events were going to overtake me.
[53:47.930 --> 53:50.350]  But I guess I'm surprised.
[53:50.550 --> 53:56.530]  And that's why I was so thrilled that Bill put my number in the book just to see how many people will call.
[53:56.730 --> 53:57.770]  I've already gotten one.
[53:58.070 --> 53:58.650]  Have you?
[53:58.650 --> 53:59.370]  Yes.
[53:59.370 --> 54:02.170]  I have gotten one from a newer phone freak.
[54:02.970 --> 54:05.110]  And so we talked for about 45 minutes.
[54:05.710 --> 54:06.110]  Wow.
[54:06.410 --> 54:07.030]  And that was fun.
[54:07.190 --> 54:15.470]  Bill, something I think is fascinating about your case in particular, you know, you got interested in the phone, you know, late 60s, kind of 1968 timeframe.
[54:15.570 --> 54:15.970]  Yes.
[54:16.470 --> 54:19.290]  And, you know, it was really your passion for...
[54:19.290 --> 54:21.550]  It was your passion as a phone freak for many years.
[54:21.750 --> 54:26.270]  But you went on to work for the phone company for 27 years, right?
[54:26.350 --> 54:26.950]  Yes, that's right.
[54:26.950 --> 54:27.230]  Yes.
[54:27.590 --> 54:29.850]  And it remains still your passion.
[54:29.970 --> 54:30.550]  Absolutely.
[54:34.050 --> 54:35.250]  Well, that's...
[54:35.250 --> 54:36.750]  It's great to know that.
[54:36.870 --> 54:42.090]  Great to know that people are still into this and fascinated by it.
[54:43.250 --> 54:55.950]  Let me ask you guys, because we're almost out of time, for kids that are playing around now with technology, what would you say to them to get them on the right path to have that spirit of curiosity?
[54:57.310 --> 54:59.050]  And developing new things.
[54:59.350 --> 55:00.830]  What would you say to inspire them?
[55:02.670 --> 55:02.690]  What would you say to inspire them?
[55:02.690 --> 55:03.750]  Uh, Linux and VoIP?
[55:06.350 --> 55:06.930]  Uh-huh.
[55:07.770 --> 55:09.370]  Bill is always selling Linux and VoIP.
[55:09.830 --> 55:10.870]  Yes, yes, exactly.
[55:11.030 --> 55:11.210]  Yes.
[55:11.430 --> 55:12.490]  Because you could...
[55:12.490 --> 55:15.650]  You know, we had to hack into the phone network.
[55:17.390 --> 55:23.290]  You guys, or we all now today, can just build our own phone network and our own computer networks.
[55:23.450 --> 55:23.710]  Uh-huh.
[55:23.710 --> 55:24.290]  It's wonderful.
[55:24.910 --> 55:25.050]  Uh-huh.
[55:25.110 --> 55:26.990]  The tools are there and they're free.
[55:28.010 --> 55:29.290]  But where's the mischief?
[55:29.730 --> 55:31.310]  You know, it's a whole thing of...
[55:31.310 --> 55:31.970]  Mischief?
[55:31.990 --> 55:33.070]  I don't know anything about mischief.
[55:33.410 --> 55:41.750]  I mean, you know, what I mean is, you know, I guess I'm about as mischievous as the average person, but, you know, it wasn't about mischief.
[55:41.750 --> 55:47.370]  It was about having fun, learning with the network, playing with it, making it do all sorts of wonderful stuff.
[55:48.390 --> 56:00.750]  And that's another reason this book is so great for, I think, younger folks today who are interested in this, because you get to see this, you get to see events unfold through the eyes of the people who were there back when you didn't have instant access to the entire world,
[56:00.770 --> 56:01.710]  as a matter of course.
[56:02.010 --> 56:09.410]  It's really good at showing you what it was like for people back then who had this in front of them and were into this.
[56:09.510 --> 56:10.990]  So, yeah, learn your roots.
[56:10.990 --> 56:14.630]  In my day, Suddy, we had to use a blue box to call Australia.
[56:16.210 --> 56:20.930]  I read something today that somebody forwarded to me, which was a quote from a Nobel Prize winning scientist.
[56:21.350 --> 56:28.270]  And he talked about how, when he was a kid, all of his friends' parents would ask his friends in school, what did you do today?
[56:28.510 --> 56:32.930]  And when he got home, his parents would ask him, did you ask any good questions today?
[56:34.230 --> 56:37.910]  And that was, I think, that sense of curiosity, right?
[56:37.910 --> 56:45.310]  That, you know, so many of the stories in the book are people hearing something or seeing something and just being curious about it.
[56:45.390 --> 56:49.550]  And so, in so many ways, I really, I view this book as really a celebration of curiosity.
[56:50.150 --> 56:55.250]  So, I think if, you know, we can encourage young people to be curious, I think that's where we want to go.
[56:55.250 --> 56:57.690]  Let me give the phone number out one more time.
[56:58.070 --> 57:01.230]  All right, it's 516-620-3602.
[57:01.350 --> 57:09.170]  For a pledge of $75, you'll get a copy of the just-released book, Exploding the Phone, by Phil Lapsley, The Untold Story of Teenagers Net Laws Who Hacked My Bell.
[57:09.530 --> 57:10.870]  Hardcover over 400 pages.
[57:11.110 --> 57:17.630]  You'll also get a one-hour spoof card, which is no end of fun for people that like to play around with the existing phone network today.
[57:17.630 --> 57:24.370]  And for a pledge of $125, you'll get all that plus 15 DVDs filled with talks about phone freaking and the telephone network.
[57:24.570 --> 57:27.710]  Again, the phone number 516-620-3602.
[57:27.850 --> 57:34.130]  In closing, I just want to ask you two guys, Phil and Bill, something concerning the way things have changed.
[57:34.250 --> 57:37.550]  Back then, it was hard to make phone calls for the average person.
[57:37.630 --> 57:38.190]  It was expensive.
[57:38.510 --> 57:42.450]  And today, it's basically like the phone freaks.
[57:42.510 --> 57:44.130]  You can call anywhere for nothing.
[57:44.790 --> 57:45.770]  Did we win?
[57:46.770 --> 57:48.330]  I suppose so.
[57:48.850 --> 57:57.510]  Or technically, we just won by the fact that technology just overtook any idea that we might have had what...
[57:57.510 --> 57:58.350]  I'm sorry.
[57:58.650 --> 58:01.970]  That we might have had how this was going to turn out.
[58:02.090 --> 58:03.730]  I mean, I never would have thought of it.
[58:03.930 --> 58:05.230]  Right now, I have like...
[58:05.230 --> 58:08.190]  You know, I have an IRC channel open to the IPv6 channel.
[58:08.190 --> 58:10.850]  I have email, of course.
[58:10.850 --> 58:13.830]  I've got, you know, free switch running on my laptop.
[58:13.830 --> 58:16.330]  And if somebody were to call, it would ring on my laptop.
[58:16.590 --> 58:18.770]  I've got just amazing access.
[58:19.130 --> 58:20.830]  Oh, I've even got gTalk open.
[58:21.090 --> 58:23.890]  And so, there's just amazing ways of communicating.
[58:25.430 --> 58:30.130]  Well, both of you guys, Bill and Phil, I'd love to thank you so much for what you've done.
[58:30.310 --> 58:34.130]  You've been a true inspiration to all of us and hopefully to many, many more people as well.
[58:34.590 --> 58:37.930]  And I hope you just keep doing what you're doing in the future.
[58:39.110 --> 58:40.190]  Thank you very much.
[58:40.490 --> 58:40.970]  All right.
[58:41.110 --> 58:45.930]  And once again, that phone number, 516-620-3602.
[58:46.870 --> 58:48.410]  516-620-3602.
[58:48.510 --> 58:55.790]  I only have a couple of minutes left to get the Phone Freak book, Exploding the Phone, to get the 15 DVDs, to get the spoof card.
[58:56.350 --> 58:58.090]  516-620-3602.
[58:58.230 --> 58:58.910]  We'll see you in two weeks.
[58:59.290 --> 58:59.830]  Good night.
[59:00.030 --> 59:02.010]  And maybe for the last time from Wall Street.
[59:02.710 --> 59:03.090]  I
[59:16.000 --> 59:16.780]  don't want to be a freak.
[59:16.800 --> 59:17.880]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:17.920 --> 59:20.100]  Oh, but I can't help myself.
[59:20.100 --> 59:20.860]  Say what?
[59:20.960 --> 59:21.920]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:21.940 --> 59:22.200]  Uh-huh.
[59:22.420 --> 59:24.060]  But I can't help myself.
[59:24.260 --> 59:24.300]  Say what?
[59:24.520 --> 59:24.800]  Say what?
[59:24.940 --> 59:26.020]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:26.060 --> 59:28.100]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:38.380 --> 59:38.900]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:38.900 --> 59:40.340]  But I can't help myself.
[59:45.160 --> 59:46.420]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:46.820 --> 59:48.520]  But I can't help myself.
[59:48.900 --> 59:49.500]  But I can't help it.
[59:49.500 --> 59:50.500]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:50.600 --> 59:51.100]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:51.100 --> 59:52.620]  But I can't help myself.
[59:52.680 --> 59:53.580]  But I can't help it.
[59:53.580 --> 59:54.580]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:54.660 --> 59:55.160]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:55.160 --> 59:56.700]  But I can't help myself.
[59:57.020 --> 59:57.640]  But I can't help it.
[59:57.640 --> 59:58.640]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:58.700 --> 59:59.520]  I don't want to be a freak.
[59:59.520 --> 01:00:01.740]  I can't help myself, but I can't help it.
[01:00:01.740 --> 01:00:05.920]  I don't want to be a freak, but I can't help myself, but I can't help it.