[00:00.580 --> 00:09.600]  You are, that's the second, you're not only possessing it, you are delivering it to someone not authorized to receive it any more than you were.
[00:10.120 --> 00:21.780]  Well, words like that mean that literally, as far as the words are concerned, everybody here reads a classified document in the New York Times, and certainly the journalists, can be prosecuted under that.
[00:21.780 --> 00:26.820]  And obviously, a breadth aspect there, and in vagueness, is enormous.
[00:27.000 --> 00:28.640]  Well, that's never gone to the Supreme Court.
[00:29.000 --> 00:30.940]  The Supreme Court has never ruled on that.
[00:31.180 --> 00:33.840]  That law should be found unconstitutional.
[00:34.510 --> 00:37.500]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:37.640 --> 00:39.140]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:39.280 --> 00:40.320]  It's Wednesday night.
[00:40.560 --> 00:41.920]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:55.550 --> 00:57.110]  Now I can't make a call.
[00:57.890 --> 00:59.850]  We couldn't get much worse,
[01:03.570 --> 01:05.410]  so the best is back for worst.
[01:06.130 --> 01:07.910]  I hope that's understood.
[01:08.090 --> 01:08.950]  One day, let me know!
[01:38.970 --> 01:40.230]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:40.330 --> 01:41.330]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:41.430 --> 01:43.550]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[01:43.690 --> 01:45.010]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[01:45.210 --> 01:45.470]  Hi there.
[01:45.750 --> 01:46.230]  Rob T.
[01:46.350 --> 01:46.810]  Firefly.
[01:46.990 --> 01:47.350]  Good evening.
[01:47.530 --> 01:47.930]  And Kyle.
[01:48.250 --> 01:48.810]  Hi, everyone.
[01:49.210 --> 01:57.490]  And we're all in the studio this week, so it's a little smaller than usual, but I think we're going to find it a lot of fun like we usually do.
[01:57.610 --> 01:58.810]  And we have a telephone, too.
[01:59.290 --> 02:00.350]  We have a telephone.
[02:00.470 --> 02:01.550]  We're not going to be using it, though.
[02:01.730 --> 02:06.170]  But we're encouraging our listeners to use their phones to call our pledge line.
[02:06.250 --> 02:07.090]  I'll give out the number now.
[02:07.270 --> 02:07.970]  Get that out of the way.
[02:08.590 --> 02:11.190]  Area code 516, which is local, by the way.
[02:11.330 --> 02:13.530]  516 is right around here.
[02:15.230 --> 02:16.030]  620-3602.
[02:16.170 --> 02:17.950]  516-620-3602.
[02:18.230 --> 02:22.970]  We're going to be detailing the premiums we're offering tonight for this edition of Off the Hook.
[02:22.970 --> 02:26.090]  And I should point out also that we are not on the air next week.
[02:26.890 --> 02:31.530]  Next week is going to be some kind of a special, but we'll be back in two weeks.
[02:31.630 --> 02:33.010]  And so this is our last fundraising show.
[02:33.590 --> 02:38.390]  So we hope to get a good performance, a good turnout from our listeners.
[02:38.570 --> 02:40.050]  And the thing is, you know, we're still...
[02:40.050 --> 02:49.290]  We're in our brand-new studios here up at Harlem Community, Community Radio, thanks to the generosity of WHCR and the folks up here.
[02:50.950 --> 02:54.210]  So we don't know how we're doing as far as calls.
[02:54.290 --> 02:57.710]  We can't see the calls coming in because it's going to a call center on Long Island somewhere.
[02:57.850 --> 02:59.570]  516-620-3602.
[02:59.650 --> 03:00.290]  That's their phone number.
[03:00.450 --> 03:01.990]  But we don't see the calls coming in.
[03:02.250 --> 03:03.850]  And we don't have internet connectivity.
[03:04.130 --> 03:10.550]  So that one week, a bunch of weeks ago, where we were able to see emails coming in when we had pledges, we don't even have that now.
[03:10.550 --> 03:19.230]  So we have to basically sort of sense it out, you know, that out there in the ether someplace, people are calling in and that our words are landing.
[03:19.490 --> 03:21.390]  And I feel people calling already.
[03:21.650 --> 03:22.490]  Do you guys feel it?
[03:23.050 --> 03:24.150]  Tell me you feel it.
[03:24.210 --> 03:30.030]  It's hard to say, but if people call 516-620-3602, maybe we can do an experiment.
[03:30.290 --> 03:35.850]  They call the number and we'll see if there's like shaking or something in the room or...
[03:36.410 --> 03:37.210]  Yeah, we could do that.
[03:38.390 --> 03:45.490]  And we're going to mention the premiums in a bit, but really the greatest premium of all, of course, is keeping WBAI on the air, keeping us on the air.
[03:45.610 --> 03:47.010]  And you can get that premium right away.
[03:47.130 --> 03:48.650]  Just call and say you want to make a pledge.
[03:49.830 --> 03:51.570]  516-620-3602.
[03:51.730 --> 03:52.810]  And they'll be happy to help you.
[03:52.930 --> 03:54.890]  And tell them your favorite radio show is off the hook.
[03:55.390 --> 03:56.030]  That's important.
[03:56.350 --> 03:56.930]  It really is.
[03:57.010 --> 03:58.210]  And you can do that anytime.
[03:58.530 --> 03:59.510]  You can do that anytime.
[03:59.510 --> 04:01.690]  Or you can go to WBAI.org and pledge there.
[04:02.330 --> 04:05.190]  I think after midnight, that's how we do it now.
[04:05.830 --> 04:10.550]  But if it's during regular hours, you can call 516-620-3602 at any time.
[04:10.970 --> 04:11.250]  Emmanuel?
[04:11.450 --> 04:11.610]  Yes.
[04:11.770 --> 04:13.090]  My favorite radio show is off the hook.
[04:13.810 --> 04:14.570]  Well, that's good.
[04:14.650 --> 04:15.030]  That's good.
[04:15.070 --> 04:17.830]  But I don't see you with a telephone in your hand making a pledge.
[04:17.830 --> 04:18.670]  And that's important.
[04:18.790 --> 04:19.590]  That's an important part of it.
[04:19.730 --> 04:22.470]  I know people stop me in the street all the time and say that.
[04:23.010 --> 04:24.250]  And it's gratifying.
[04:24.450 --> 04:25.290]  It never gets old.
[04:25.850 --> 04:34.150]  But for this particular hour, our last hour during this fun drive, we would really appreciate people calling in and helping to keep this place going.
[04:34.290 --> 04:36.530]  This place really manages to survive.
[04:36.530 --> 04:38.330]  We're in a new temporary home.
[04:39.130 --> 04:41.610]  And we're still coming to you.
[04:41.730 --> 04:43.470]  We're going to find a better place to be.
[04:43.650 --> 04:45.950]  We got out of Wall Street in the nick of time, I think.
[04:47.330 --> 04:49.490]  And the future is going to be very interesting.
[04:49.690 --> 04:55.830]  And we'd like to take as many listeners with us as possible into that future, which I think is going to be exciting and fun.
[04:57.430 --> 05:00.110]  So we have some stories that we're going to focus on.
[05:00.210 --> 05:06.850]  And we'll go into the main focus of the hour, which will be, I think, a lot of fun for people.
[05:06.950 --> 05:09.370]  Again, that phone number, 516-620-3602.
[05:09.410 --> 05:10.210]  But first, some news.
[05:11.230 --> 05:15.070]  And this is something that, Mike, I think maybe you could give us more background on.
[05:15.070 --> 05:17.290]  But there was something happened yesterday with the Supreme Court.
[05:17.450 --> 05:25.570]  They turned back a challenge to a federal law that broadened the government's power to eavesdrop on international phone calls and emails.
[05:25.890 --> 05:27.390]  It's a five to four vote.
[05:28.150 --> 05:37.670]  And it basically, according to the New York Times, they say it probably means the Supreme Court will never rule on the constitutionality of that 2008 law.
[05:37.970 --> 05:39.850]  First of all, what is this law?
[05:40.110 --> 05:41.070]  There's so many laws.
[05:41.070 --> 05:47.310]  This is a law that was made in 2008 that basically involves international phone calls and emails.
[05:47.630 --> 05:53.090]  Yeah, this is the amendments to the FISA bill, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
[05:53.330 --> 06:01.730]  And in 2008, there were some amendments which make it even easier, basically, for the government to spy on your international telephone calls.
[06:01.730 --> 06:12.550]  So there was a lawsuit brought, and this one in particular was brought by a number of human rights activists and journalists and attorneys who want to be able to make international phone calls.
[06:12.670 --> 06:14.990]  And for various reasons, they don't want the U.S.
[06:15.090 --> 06:17.310]  government to be listening to those calls surreptitiously.
[06:18.650 --> 06:21.830]  Their contacts overseas may not want the U.S.
[06:21.930 --> 06:24.230]  government to be listening to those calls.
[06:24.230 --> 06:29.790]  So it affects the willingness of those contacts to, to talk to the people in the United States.
[06:30.450 --> 06:35.410]  And so they filed a bill, they filed a lawsuit to challenge this law.
[06:35.530 --> 06:40.510]  And what the Supreme Court ruled was not that it is legal for the government to do these things.
[06:40.630 --> 06:42.610]  They didn't rule on that question at all.
[06:42.610 --> 06:49.790]  What they ruled is that these plaintiffs may not challenge the law.
[06:49.910 --> 06:51.970]  They do not have standing to challenge the law.
[06:52.090 --> 06:56.830]  And that's really almost doubly frightening, because maybe the law is unconstitutional.
[06:56.970 --> 06:59.930]  Maybe the Supreme Court, if you ask them, they would say this law is unconstitutional.
[07:00.010 --> 07:02.330]  But what they've said is, we're not going to tell you.
[07:02.330 --> 07:04.930]  We don't want to think about this bill itself.
[07:05.230 --> 07:08.630]  Well, now they're saying that the plaintiffs lacked...
[07:08.630 --> 07:09.750]  What's the word they used?
[07:09.930 --> 07:10.310]  Standing.
[07:10.530 --> 07:12.150]  Standing to challenge the law.
[07:12.150 --> 07:15.510]  Okay, so if they lack standing, who has standing?
[07:15.610 --> 07:16.870]  Who can challenge this law?
[07:16.950 --> 07:17.930]  Do they even say that?
[07:18.130 --> 07:18.970]  Why would they say that?
[07:19.070 --> 07:19.850]  That would make it too easy.
[07:19.970 --> 07:22.790]  So nobody can challenge these laws.
[07:22.990 --> 07:25.950]  I mean, that's my interpretation of this.
[07:25.950 --> 07:27.190]  I mean, that's what the Times is saying.
[07:28.170 --> 07:32.370]  The EFF and the ACLU have sort of pinned their renewed hopes.
[07:32.570 --> 07:38.390]  There's a lawsuit in San Francisco filed by Mr. Jewell, who is...
[07:38.970 --> 07:40.210]  We've mentioned him on the show in the past.
[07:40.290 --> 07:42.030]  He used to work for AT&T.
[07:42.150 --> 07:48.350]  And so he has seen the secret room where the NSA interconnects with AT&T's equipment.
[07:48.590 --> 07:50.070]  Where is the secret room?
[07:50.690 --> 07:54.230]  The one he saw was in San Francisco, which is why the lawsuit's out there.
[07:54.390 --> 08:00.550]  But presumably there's one in many of AT&T's large international switching facilities.
[08:02.450 --> 08:24.390]  And so he has potentially a little bit more ground to stand upon to file the lawsuit because he actually has firsthand knowledge that the spying is going on rather than these other journalists and whatnot who are speculating with very good reason but haven't proven that they're being spied upon.
[08:24.390 --> 08:28.350]  So there's some hope for that lawsuit, but I don't know.
[08:29.710 --> 08:30.350]  All right.
[08:30.490 --> 08:31.910]  Well, it doesn't sound very optimistic.
[08:32.330 --> 08:33.070]  It sounds a little scary.
[08:33.070 --> 08:36.530]  It's only one law of many that we're concerned about.
[08:36.530 --> 08:42.290]  And it's not nice to know that nobody seems to have standing to question it.
[08:42.290 --> 08:50.770]  I mean, so what we're building in this country is a system of secret law that no one knows what the law is and no one knows who enforces it and no one knows what they're doing.
[08:52.470 --> 08:58.170]  And, I mean, I should be more frightened by this, but it's happening so much that I almost am numb to it.
[08:58.190 --> 09:01.530]  Well, that's part of the strategy, isn't it, to make you kind of resign to it.
[09:01.670 --> 09:05.210]  It happens all the time, so it's nothing new, and we just grow to accept it.
[09:05.210 --> 09:08.070]  And that's kind of sad and scary.
[09:08.930 --> 09:10.530]  Okay, there's this other story, too.
[09:10.770 --> 09:15.090]  I don't know if this is related or not, or so many different things going on.
[09:15.190 --> 09:16.230]  It's kind of hard to keep track of it all.
[09:16.870 --> 09:31.110]  Several members of the Senate Intelligence Committee wrote to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court this month to ask the court to prepare summaries of classified opinions that represent significant interpretations of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act,
[09:31.230 --> 09:34.910]  FISA, in order to facilitate their declassification and public release.
[09:34.910 --> 09:36.510]  Can you translate what I just said?
[09:36.610 --> 09:41.230]  Because this is really kind of overwhelming.
[09:41.470 --> 09:42.610]  All right, I can try.
[09:43.670 --> 09:54.190]  So, as we mentioned, the FISA Act allows the government to spy on foreign nationals and also the conversations between U.S.
[09:54.450 --> 09:55.750]  people and foreigners.
[09:56.850 --> 10:02.350]  And sometimes the government has to apply for a warrant under this act.
[10:02.350 --> 10:09.190]  But the thing they apply to is this court, the secret court called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, FISC.
[10:10.430 --> 10:15.990]  And what's special about this court is not only that there's only... only the government goes there.
[10:16.050 --> 10:18.250]  The person being spied upon doesn't get to be represented.
[10:18.470 --> 10:27.010]  And also, all their decisions are secret because I guess they're going to use this information for secret purposes, so they don't want to know what information they're getting.
[10:27.250 --> 10:29.950]  So, everything is secret here.
[10:30.110 --> 10:34.090]  And what these Congress people have asked... and do you have the names of the Congress people?
[10:34.670 --> 10:35.790]  Oh, gosh.
[10:35.970 --> 10:36.970]  Hang on a second.
[10:37.190 --> 10:41.230]  Yes, the Senator Merkley, Senator Dianne Feinstein.
[10:42.410 --> 10:44.650]  They're from the Senate Intelligence Committee.
[10:44.650 --> 10:51.490]  So, the Senate Intelligence Committee is supposed to oversee, you know, intelligence gathering in the United States.
[10:51.690 --> 10:54.010]  But they do not know what this court is deciding.
[10:54.170 --> 10:58.290]  Not only we don't know, but the people overseeing the court don't know what the court is doing.
[10:58.450 --> 10:59.530]  They don't know what the government's doing.
[11:00.510 --> 11:04.310]  We've seen some numbers released that say that this court basically never says no.
[11:06.110 --> 11:12.470]  But what these senators have asked, you know, hey, court, is there any reasoning behind your decisions?
[11:12.670 --> 11:14.370]  Why are you approving everything all the time?
[11:14.530 --> 11:17.390]  And don't tell us necessarily, like, who is being spied upon.
[11:17.550 --> 11:18.630]  Don't give up any of the secrets.
[11:18.810 --> 11:33.410]  But just, like, tell us the laws that you're making up, the case law that you're making up, so that we as the public and they as the Congress can know what laws are being applied and the Congress can maybe even change them if they want.
[11:33.410 --> 11:34.990]  Should we be trusting these senators?
[11:35.250 --> 11:36.350]  Are they looking out for us?
[11:36.990 --> 11:37.990]  I mean, sure.
[11:38.550 --> 11:43.510]  It's better that they get what they want, for sure, than that they don't get it.
[11:43.730 --> 11:49.510]  I would, you know, any reasonable person, I think, would prefer that we don't have secret courts making secret laws at all.
[11:49.730 --> 11:54.810]  But if we do have that, then I guess it would be nice to have a summary of what they're doing.
[11:54.950 --> 11:56.290]  But that takes away all the secrecy.
[11:56.610 --> 11:58.610]  Just a little bit of secrecy.
[11:59.390 --> 12:09.870]  But the really scary thing about all this is that the average person walking down the street going about their business has to know what the laws are in order not to break them, you know, in certain cases.
[12:09.870 --> 12:20.410]  If you suddenly found out that something mundane that you do in your daily life that doesn't hurt anybody is illegal, but they're not allowed to tell you it's illegal, but you're just breaking the law and you're going to be punished for it, that would be ridiculous.
[12:20.410 --> 12:21.950]  But that's the position we're in now.
[12:22.050 --> 12:23.170]  There are laws in place.
[12:23.290 --> 12:24.090]  There are laws being enforced.
[12:24.090 --> 12:25.630]  And we don't know what they are.
[12:25.750 --> 12:26.710]  We're not being told what they are.
[12:26.850 --> 12:34.230]  And if our Congress people can ask this question and get rebuffed and not get the answer, then who can?
[12:35.970 --> 12:38.670]  Well, that is something to ponder.
[12:39.830 --> 12:45.830]  And as we said, there are so many laws, so many new things going into effect that we can't keep track of it all.
[12:45.990 --> 12:49.850]  And of course, we depend on our listeners to help us out as far as that goes.
[12:49.850 --> 12:52.970]  Send us email, OTH at 2600.com.
[12:52.970 --> 12:59.350]  Tell us if you have heard something that concerns you or that you have questions about it that you've heard in the news.
[12:59.470 --> 13:02.250]  There is another law that apparently is going into effect.
[13:02.310 --> 13:03.830]  If you've seen this story around...
[13:03.830 --> 13:04.530]  More laws, really?
[13:04.530 --> 13:07.490]  Well, just more restrictions and surveillance and things like that.
[13:07.550 --> 13:11.850]  This involves ISPs that are now monitoring for copyright infringement.
[13:12.770 --> 13:24.470]  This, according to WIRE, the nation's major internet service providers on Monday, only two days ago, said they are beginning to roll out an initiative to disrupt internet access for online copyright scofflaws.
[13:24.570 --> 13:28.130]  Note that phrase, to disrupt internet access.
[13:28.390 --> 13:31.030]  Now, it's a so-called copyright alert system.
[13:31.150 --> 13:33.010]  It's backed by the Obama administration.
[13:33.010 --> 13:36.050]  It was pushed heavily by record labels and Hollywood Studios.
[13:36.250 --> 13:37.630]  So you know it's got to be good.
[13:38.290 --> 13:47.350]  Yeah, the plan, more than four years in the making, includes participation by AT&T, Cablevision, Comcast, Time Warner, and Verizon, and others could join soon.
[13:47.590 --> 14:05.050]  Now, after four offenses, this plan calls for those particular residential internet providers to initiate so-called mitigation measures that might include reducing internet speeds and redirecting a subscriber's service to an educational landing page about infringement.
[14:05.490 --> 14:07.630]  Yeah, let the doctrinization begin.
[14:07.630 --> 14:12.590]  Again, the plan does not prevent content owners from suing internet subscribers.
[14:12.950 --> 14:17.710]  The Copyright Act allows damages of up to $150,000 per infringement.
[14:18.110 --> 14:26.350]  The Center for Copyright Information, which is the group running the program, maintains it is not designed to terminate online accounts for repeat offenders.
[14:26.550 --> 14:35.010]  However, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the DMCA, our old friend, demands that internet service providers kick off repeat copyright scofflaws.
[14:35.670 --> 14:40.950]  The program monitors peer-to-peer file-sharing services via internet snoop mark monitor.
[14:41.270 --> 14:42.790]  It's not a guide, that's a program.
[14:42.970 --> 14:45.070]  Mark monitor of San Francisco.
[14:45.790 --> 14:53.590]  The surveillance was to have been deployed sooner, but the various delays included Hurricane Sandy and ISP reluctance to join.
[14:55.210 --> 14:55.850]  I don't know.
[14:55.930 --> 14:56.790]  What do you guys think about this?
[14:57.090 --> 15:01.150]  So one thing that's amazing about this is that you made a slight mistake at the beginning.
[15:01.290 --> 15:02.110]  You said this is a new law.
[15:02.110 --> 15:12.370]  This is not a law, this is a voluntary program that your internet service provider is complying with whether you want it to or not, even though there's no legal requirement that they do.
[15:13.530 --> 15:20.790]  If we had, you know, competition in this country between internet service providers, then maybe you could go to a different one, but we don't have that.
[15:21.810 --> 15:22.630]  Well, yes, you're right.
[15:22.630 --> 15:23.890]  But it's an agreement.
[15:24.410 --> 15:29.290]  And don't you think, though, they could easily pass a law and make this something...
[15:29.290 --> 15:30.950]  Or maybe this is the prelude to passing a law.
[15:31.370 --> 15:37.390]  If it was a law, then look, we've criticized the Congress on many occasions on this program.
[15:37.390 --> 15:39.030]  They deserve a lot of the criticism.
[15:39.190 --> 15:42.890]  But at least there is some process for public input into laws.
[15:42.890 --> 15:45.670]  There is no process for public input into this thing.
[15:45.830 --> 15:48.510]  And that's great, you know, just great.
[15:48.730 --> 15:51.050]  So this will be monitoring peer-to-peer networking.
[15:51.410 --> 15:58.150]  And usually people don't take enough precautions when they hook up to these things.
[15:58.510 --> 16:01.470]  Your IP addresses will be easily sent over.
[16:01.710 --> 16:03.110]  And you might get...
[16:03.110 --> 16:11.610]  On the first offense, you'll receive an email alert from your ISP saying the account may have been misused for online content theft.
[16:11.610 --> 16:17.690]  Now, on the second offense, the alert might contain an educational message about the legalities of online file sharing.
[16:17.970 --> 16:26.850]  On the third and fourth infractions, the subscriber will likely receive a pop-up notice asking the subscriber to acknowledge receipt of the alert.
[16:26.850 --> 16:34.530]  I can hardly wait to see these little pop-ups and see how we can defeat them and figure out ways around this.
[16:34.570 --> 16:37.350]  But it's really kind of intrusive and crazy.
[16:37.590 --> 16:46.550]  Yeah, but what might be fun about this is that, you know, all of us in this room where, you know, writers and artists, photographers, you know, people that have copyrighted material, I mean, those copyrights are automatic.
[16:46.650 --> 16:48.270]  The minute we create something, it's our copyright.
[16:48.810 --> 16:52.010]  So there's stuff floating around the net that I think all of us have had a hand in.
[16:52.150 --> 16:58.630]  And I think it's nice of them to voluntarily scan everybody in the world who's using torrents for our work and to protect our interests.
[16:58.650 --> 17:04.210]  Because, you know, what if somebody's selling a t-shirt with like one of my paintings on it without asking me or crediting me, you know, that wouldn't be cool.
[17:04.330 --> 17:05.290]  So for them to be scanning...
[17:05.290 --> 17:05.670]  Wait, wait.
[17:05.850 --> 17:12.730]  Is this something that's just for large, perhaps, organizations with lots of money that make copyrighted material or...
[17:12.730 --> 17:14.350]  We all create things in this room.
[17:14.350 --> 17:18.470]  And I don't think any of us have received an invitation to be protected by this.
[17:18.590 --> 17:19.290]  So yeah, you're right.
[17:19.330 --> 17:25.470]  It's only for the people that make a ton of money as it is and who basically benefit from all this.
[17:25.750 --> 17:36.470]  When people are trading free television programs online, I think that sort of raises the attention of those particular pieces of crap that they're trading online.
[17:37.310 --> 17:42.410]  So it's just a way that they think they can make more money off of people and a way to intimidate others.
[17:42.630 --> 17:46.330]  We've seen people victimized horribly already by these accusations.
[17:46.490 --> 17:48.770]  And it's just not a healthy place to be going.
[17:49.670 --> 17:56.550]  I think that broadband in general, like the bigger issue in this country, broadband is like pretty lousy and very overpriced in this country.
[17:56.770 --> 18:15.810]  And that these kinds of things ultimately are going to be seen as like hostile towards the public and that we are probably going to be moved to assemble our own sort of like public utilities and create broadband deployments that we actually own as like,
[18:16.050 --> 18:18.830]  you know, you see in some rural areas with public utility commissions.
[18:18.830 --> 18:20.470]  It's just, it's pretty hostile.
[18:20.810 --> 18:36.930]  And, and you're like, like was said that like, there's not that much competition, um, for broadband access and, and people ultimately, I think are going to build their own networks, uh, when pushed, like, because you shouldn't feel like not only are you paying for lousy service,
[18:37.170 --> 18:46.390]  uh, an exorbitant rate, but now you're, you're like participating, you're volunteered in this sort of like drag net to make you basically a criminal for, for sharing information online.
[18:47.050 --> 18:51.450]  I mean, the other thing about these programs is that they don't work.
[18:51.650 --> 18:58.070]  Uh, all these programs that have been tried for automated copyright enforcement, they all have a ton of false positives.
[18:58.270 --> 19:07.970]  Uh, if you create a legal, uh, satire of, of a copyrighted work, your, your satire might get dragged into this, uh, drag net and you might get, get these notices.
[19:08.370 --> 19:14.650]  Uh, the, the educational thing, uh, whatever it is, I'm sure it will not... Fair use?
[19:14.870 --> 19:21.150]  No, they said there's some education, you'll be sent into retraining or, uh, re-education.
[19:21.250 --> 19:23.410]  Right, the splash page of learning how to, yeah.
[19:23.590 --> 19:29.470]  Whatever that is, I'm sure it will not be audited for actual, uh, correctness about what the law says.
[19:29.710 --> 19:42.310]  The, the YouTube I know has something, some copyright school and, and some people who have been sent to YouTube copyright school report that it is just, it takes this copyright maximalist position that is not actually what the law says.
[19:42.430 --> 19:44.150]  And I'm sure this thing will be similar.
[19:44.510 --> 19:45.630]  It's, it's all insane.
[19:45.750 --> 19:45.870]  Right.
[19:45.930 --> 19:54.090]  Like there's no uniformity in, in that kind of, uh, the statements that are made that are like independently, uh, implemented across like the private carriers.
[19:54.230 --> 19:57.770]  So you have this breadth of opinion that none of it's actually very accurate.
[19:57.930 --> 19:58.930]  That's entirely possible.
[19:59.190 --> 19:59.430]  Yeah.
[19:59.550 --> 20:01.770]  And the thing, and you mentioned the YouTube copyright school.
[20:01.910 --> 20:13.010]  Now, I hope you guys will all continue to be friends with me after I admit this, but I was once sent to YouTube copyright school and, uh, it was, it was on, uh, it was over a video that I had up that was later.
[20:13.410 --> 20:16.670]  The, uh, takedown was later overturned because I was allowed to use what I was using.
[20:17.230 --> 20:21.270]  Um, however, I still had to watch this copyright school thing in order to be allowed back into YouTube.
[20:21.630 --> 20:24.450]  And yeah, it was every, it was everything that Mike said and more.
[20:24.650 --> 20:29.370]  And, uh, it was done with, uh, quote unquote, cute little cartoon animals as well.
[20:29.570 --> 20:30.110]  It was terrible.
[20:30.710 --> 20:40.830]  Another really interesting thing is that the people that are like serious about, um, getting these kinds of like forms of media and whatever that they're going to find better ways anyway.
[20:41.690 --> 20:55.650]  Um, so the, I don't know, dragging in again, dragging in people that are more or less innocent or sort of small potatoes, it's not actually going to, it's actually going to solve a problem of, you know, systemic file sharing, that kind of thing.
[20:56.150 --> 20:56.690]  All right.
[20:56.730 --> 21:10.130]  I want to continue this discussion about, um, um, tracking people by their IPs and things like that because there's all sorts of, uh, of other ways that's done and how it's affecting the entire community and it will affect people in the future.
[21:10.350 --> 21:19.350]  But we need to focus on getting calls to come in because this is, as we mentioned, our final pledge drive show of the winter season.
[21:19.850 --> 21:23.570]  And, uh, we have something special lined up for you guys tonight.
[21:23.570 --> 21:30.130]  Uh, it's called the hardware, the hacker hardware, um, extravaganza or, or, or, or whatnot.
[21:30.310 --> 21:35.430]  What we are offering, we're offering, uh, two levels, two, um, two package levels here.
[21:35.730 --> 21:38.890]  Uh, one for $75 and one for $125.
[21:39.550 --> 21:42.270]  Phone number again, 516-620-3602.
[21:42.790 --> 21:48.530]  Now for the $75 package, you will get one of those amazing digital multimeters.
[21:48.990 --> 21:51.470]  And Rob, I know you were playing with the multimeter last time.
[21:51.470 --> 21:52.230]  I was.
[21:52.270 --> 21:58.570]  We don't have one here with us right now, but, uh, uh, uh, what kinds of things can one do with a digital multimeter that you would call?
[21:58.710 --> 21:59.730]  Oh, all sorts of things.
[21:59.870 --> 22:12.510]  If you're interested in hardware, you can use it to, uh, test levels of, uh, voltage of, uh, con, you can test for continuity in a circuit and all these things, which are basically different ways to probe and explore, um, a device that you have in front of you,
[22:12.650 --> 22:23.670]  um, or, or test one that you're building if you're, if, uh, your interest is at that level or just repair things around the house, uh, see if power outlets in your house are working, um, things like, uh, things like that.
[22:23.810 --> 22:27.830]  So you, you can, you can, uh, get hold of one of these and it's a really handy thing to have.
[22:27.970 --> 22:37.550]  And there are lots of, uh, you know, little tutorials on YouTube and stuff about the, um, some of the beginner stuff you can do with, uh, one of these and they are, they are just very, very handy.
[22:37.810 --> 22:40.050]  And every, uh, every hacker needs one in their toolbox.
[22:40.050 --> 22:40.530]  Yeah.
[22:40.690 --> 22:41.630]  It's, it's so useful.
[22:41.630 --> 22:47.950]  You cannot actually like understand how something works or fix something if you can't measure what's going on electrically.
[22:48.370 --> 22:55.630]  Uh, so it has settings for like resistance and, um, as, as Rob said, voltage and, and current and things like that.
[22:55.750 --> 23:03.390]  And it's, it's absolutely critical that you can figure out what actual numbers are going through the circuit and get, do the math and get the right resistance.
[23:03.390 --> 23:05.790]  And it makes, basically makes things safer too.
[23:05.970 --> 23:18.010]  I mean, instead of having something that could, you know, smoke and blow up and all that, you know, you, you actually have things right as far as, um, the way the voltage is and the way the circuit is meant to be just like designed properly and that kind of thing.
[23:18.190 --> 23:26.850]  So you can, you can basically have, um, uh, all kinds of things being built and assembled with, uh, with a multimeter, but it's a great way to learn.
[23:27.010 --> 23:33.550]  It's a great way to get introduced to the whole, um, uh, hardware aspect of, of the hacker world, but that's not all we're offering for a pledge of $75.
[23:33.790 --> 23:43.270]  We're also offering, uh, 12 DVDs, 12 hardware, hardware related talks from the various hope conferences, uh, that comes with that package.
[23:43.450 --> 23:53.190]  Uh, so you get the digital multimeter and you get the 12 hardware related talks, uh, from, from hope conference for a pledge of $75 to 516-620-3602.
[23:53.370 --> 23:53.910]  I'm sorry.
[23:53.990 --> 23:54.630]  How many talks?
[23:54.890 --> 23:55.170]  12.
[23:55.470 --> 23:55.650]  12?
[23:55.830 --> 23:55.910]  12.
[23:56.070 --> 23:58.310]  That, that's, that, and they're hour long each.
[23:58.470 --> 23:58.690]  Yeah.
[23:58.890 --> 24:00.470]  Well, approximately about 54 minutes.
[24:00.490 --> 24:09.150]  So it's basically 12 hours of, of some of the best information you can get about how hardware is created, how you can make your own hardware.
[24:09.370 --> 24:11.930]  Yeah, I have an excerpt of one, uh, that's, that's rather unusual.
[24:11.950 --> 24:22.470]  But let me first tell people if they want to pledge $125, we really do appreciate when people call in and pledge more, uh, because, uh, it, it helps, helps the station, helps keep us on the air.
[24:22.830 --> 24:23.750]  And that's what it's all about.
[24:23.930 --> 24:25.810]  516-620-3602.
[24:25.930 --> 24:33.250]  For a pledge of $125, you get the digital multimeter, you'll get the 12 DVD talks, and you'll get spy pens.
[24:33.650 --> 24:40.830]  Yeah, the ever popular spy pens that we gave away, uh, last year, and, uh, the phones almost broke from all the people calling in for those.
[24:41.010 --> 24:46.070]  $125, you'll get your own spy pen, and that allows you, well, Kyle, I think you know something about these, right?
[24:46.070 --> 24:46.730]  They're really cool.
[24:46.950 --> 24:56.370]  Uh, actually, it's about, it's about the size of a, a cigar or like a fountain pen, a really, and they're designed much like a fountain pen, very classy, sort of, but a very large... Well, it looks exactly like it.
[24:56.550 --> 24:57.970]  I mean, is it, does it write too?
[24:58.270 --> 24:59.570]  Um, I'm not sure if it writes.
[24:59.630 --> 25:01.150]  I didn't pull the cap off and test it for that.
[25:01.150 --> 25:02.350]  I think we actually tried that.
[25:02.530 --> 25:05.370]  Uh, I'm sure they probably have some, some sort of writing ability.
[25:05.430 --> 25:17.930]  If not, I mean, it looks very, very much like a fountain pen if it was in your pocket or something like that, but basically it holds a SD card and it has a USB and some sort of battery and it can record at a fairly decent, uh, HD TV quality.
[25:17.930 --> 25:21.530]  I believe it's like 720 progressive or something like that.
[25:21.810 --> 25:23.150]  HD TV on a fountain pen.
[25:23.150 --> 25:23.470]  Yeah.
[25:24.090 --> 25:25.470]  What a time to be alive, really.
[25:26.730 --> 25:30.310]  But you can 516-620-3602.
[25:30.650 --> 25:34.170]  So what I do is I call 516-620-3602.
[25:34.250 --> 25:38.750]  And if I want this, I say, I would like hacker hardware package number one.
[25:39.010 --> 25:39.350]  Okay.
[25:39.530 --> 25:39.750]  Yeah.
[25:39.990 --> 25:44.330]  I think that's, I think you have to say it the right way because, uh, we, we can't run down the hall to these people.
[25:44.470 --> 25:45.930]  They're somewhere there in a different city.
[25:46.090 --> 25:48.590]  Uh, but yeah, hardware package and hacker hardware package.
[25:48.750 --> 25:55.090]  Number one is a $75 package, uh, with a digital multimeter and the 12 talks, uh, hacker hardware package.
[25:55.250 --> 26:05.730]  Number two is the $125 version of that with the digital multimeter, the 12 hardware related talks on DVD and the spy pens, 516-620-3602.
[26:05.970 --> 26:13.730]  Uh, we're only offering this between now and 8 PM Eastern time on February 27th, 2013.
[26:14.330 --> 26:20.810]  So if you're debating getting this, we would suggest making that phone call now 516-620-3602.
[26:21.010 --> 26:35.170]  Now what we have, we have lined up an excerpt from one of the talks and you will get this talk with either package, uh, and, and, and 11 more, not like it, but, uh, with a similar theme because every talk is, is different in, in, in one way or another.
[26:35.530 --> 26:37.790]  This one has to do with graffiti.
[26:38.090 --> 26:46.470]  And I think that's pretty interesting because it's not what your, your, your typical, uh, what you might think hackers are, are involved in building things and, and, uh, electronics and all that.
[26:46.630 --> 26:52.890]  This is a presentation from hope number six back in 2006 by the graffiti research lab.
[26:52.890 --> 27:01.070]  And, and they were dedicated to, they are dedicated to outfitting graffiti writers, street artists, protesters with all sorts of open source technologies for urban communication.
[27:01.610 --> 27:13.070]  And the panel discussion here gives an introduction to geek graffiti and, uh, focuses on the iBeam open lab with, uh, all kinds of attention paid to public domain, do it yourself, hardware hacking.
[27:13.510 --> 27:25.530]  So, uh, we're going to take a brief listen to, um, uh, to that, uh, an excerpt from that talk in 2006, one of 12 talks that you will get with your pledge to 516-620-3602.
[27:25.630 --> 27:40.550]  Again, $75, you'll get the 12 talks, you'll get the digital multimeter, and for 125, you'll get that plus a bonafide spy pen that you can use for all kinds of nefarious purposes and maybe, uh, not nefarious purposes as well.
[27:40.690 --> 27:48.050]  But for now, let's go back to 2006, hope number six, and the new engineers of graffiti.
[27:48.990 --> 27:51.750]  Um, yeah, this is one we get a lot.
[27:51.890 --> 28:00.990]  It's probably fairly relevant in that, you know, what the materials that we do, you know, use do cost more money than, say, a can of spray paint that someone's, you know, stole.
[28:01.310 --> 28:02.950]  You can also steal LEDs, too.
[28:03.310 --> 28:05.190]  Spray paint is very expensive these days.
[28:05.390 --> 28:09.290]  It's not quite that big a discrepancy, but yeah, no, we do.
[28:10.730 --> 28:12.710]  Yeah, I guess that's a good question.
[28:13.110 --> 28:17.130]  The cost of covering the cube?
[28:17.310 --> 28:24.070]  Well, it's somewhere between 25 to 50 cents per LED throw, depending on how many we buy.
[28:24.310 --> 28:27.750]  So, something like the cube where there were 600, you know, you guys can do the math.
[28:27.910 --> 28:34.350]  It's not, it's certainly not as expensive as the shows that the, the art non-profit we work for puts on, you know?
[28:34.910 --> 28:35.950]  Um, it's not as...
[28:35.950 --> 28:36.530]  So, you got funded then?
[28:36.770 --> 28:38.950]  Like, were you getting money to do that?
[28:39.110 --> 28:40.050]  We are getting money.
[28:40.170 --> 28:45.090]  We're funded by, uh, a number of sort of very prestigious art grants to do this.
[28:46.870 --> 28:48.310]  MacArthur Foundation and whatnot.
[28:48.830 --> 28:51.430]  They do.
[28:51.650 --> 29:04.030]  I mean, the, the process for the first throwie video, I think, laid out what would happen for all the future ones in that, you know, we go, we do this, you know, we're up there throwing these throwies on the building, you know, pretty lame, whatever.
[29:04.690 --> 29:09.310]  And then a group of people who are totally unassociated with us come up and they immediately get it.
[29:09.670 --> 29:14.730]  I like that young gentleman who ran up and, you know, did the, like, two-foot vertical grab of those throwies.
[29:14.970 --> 29:18.970]  Right before that, he had turned to me and said, you guys are bombing this, yo.
[29:19.330 --> 29:20.310]  And then he went and did it.
[29:20.390 --> 29:21.450]  So he got it right away.
[29:22.030 --> 29:24.430]  Um, so that's actually the more cool part.
[29:24.530 --> 29:27.210]  But so those guys don't actually, they're not, like, on our agenda.
[29:27.570 --> 29:30.590]  You know, they actually are more interested in kind of getting something for themselves.
[29:30.590 --> 29:35.130]  So they go out and they grab them, they throw them back a few times, and they're like, I'm just going to take as many as I can.
[29:35.470 --> 29:46.050]  And that's cool too, because it's a bit like the subway system hacks, uh, that graffiti artists did in the 70s and 80s, and that they would use the subway to transport their, you know, giant paintings all over the city.
[29:46.270 --> 29:51.670]  So they would get the whole, you know, all five boroughs using just, you know, one, one train car.
[29:52.270 --> 29:55.450]  Um, and we've also had the joy to work with a lot of kids.
[29:55.770 --> 29:57.990]  You know, kids are great because they're all anarchists.
[29:58.730 --> 30:01.010]  Um, none of them vote.
[30:05.430 --> 30:07.930]  So, and I thought this was a very sort of astute comment.
[30:08.110 --> 30:22.210]  And not only did they sort of predict, you know, this, the, the youth of today, their involvement in the graffiti tomorrow, but they also predicted that they would eventually sell out and allow their work to just be sort of co-opted into the similitude of,
[30:22.210 --> 30:22.670]  of art.
[30:23.490 --> 30:24.890]  Um, okay.
[30:25.090 --> 30:28.850]  So, so you saw we, a lot of the stuff that we do, we're not particularly hardcore.
[30:29.170 --> 30:30.670]  We're pretty soft core guys.
[30:30.930 --> 30:34.110]  Um, and people don't really take a lot of our stuff very hardcore.
[30:34.450 --> 30:38.530]  They actually tend to go, uh, in the opposite direction as hard as they can.
[30:38.530 --> 30:45.310]  So here's a site, Parent Hacks, where people have figured out that they can use throwies to mark their, like, soccer mom caravan.
[30:45.850 --> 30:52.610]  Um, and if we were really worried about looking like putzes, like, this would be really hurtful for us.
[30:54.250 --> 30:54.990]  But we're not.
[30:55.130 --> 30:55.770]  It's totally cool.
[30:55.990 --> 31:00.830]  I mean, it's, it's really, it's really pretty cool that, that people can find other ways to use it.
[31:01.690 --> 31:07.210]  Um, you know, not, not everything that other people have done has made us sort of happy.
[31:07.210 --> 31:21.970]  Uh, sometimes we feel like, um, Eric from Instructables said that we have a lot of vanilla ice nemesises, nemesis, who, um, are out there trying to take our projects in a very sort of soft and fluffy direction.
[31:22.430 --> 31:26.190]  But then again, when they do it, they tend to innovate, and they improve it.
[31:26.750 --> 31:34.310]  Um, Fridge Lights, who refuses to attribute his electrograph to our, um, sort of work that we did preceding him.
[31:34.590 --> 31:37.230]  Because I got in an argument with him in a comment thread.
[31:37.650 --> 31:41.370]  Um, has actually brought a lot of innovations to the electrograph.
[31:41.490 --> 31:43.850]  He uses AC power, he made a kind of different setup.
[31:44.390 --> 31:50.150]  The only thing that sucks is that now I have to ask, people ask me, like the guys from Solar Robotics, oh, that's awesome.
[31:50.190 --> 31:52.070]  You guys do these, these murals.
[31:52.230 --> 31:55.770]  It's cool that you guys have learned from Fridge Lights, how to make them.
[31:56.350 --> 31:58.950]  So, but either way, we suck it up.
[31:59.310 --> 32:06.690]  Um, certainly, there's other people that are out there who are interested in our, you know, little games and fun for their own commercial game.
[32:06.830 --> 32:08.790]  And we actually buy LEDs from this company.
[32:08.910 --> 32:09.870]  They're really nice dudes.
[32:10.150 --> 32:12.330]  They're really like, with it kind of guys.
[32:12.590 --> 32:25.010]  They actually suggested they would give the 2600 staff 10,000 throwies, if someone could get them root server error log access.
[32:25.150 --> 32:26.730]  I really don't know what they were asking.
[32:27.270 --> 32:34.370]  I forwarded it on to a manual, but there's like, some promise of a lot of throwies, I think, if you could do something really illegal for this Chinese company.
[32:37.050 --> 32:38.150]  This is close to home.
[32:38.270 --> 32:39.810]  These guys are just in New Jersey.
[32:40.150 --> 32:44.130]  We've done a sort of, you know, who is, this is the... Okay, we're gonna fade it down right there.
[32:44.210 --> 32:46.130]  We're not gonna comment on whether or not we help them out.
[32:46.430 --> 32:53.350]  But that's just one of 12 talks that you'll get with the, with the two packages that we're offering tonight.
[32:53.550 --> 32:57.710]  The hacker hardware package number one, and the hacker hardware package number two.
[32:58.650 --> 33:03.950]  The first one $75, the second one $125, 516-620-3602.
[33:04.110 --> 33:05.790]  Again, 12 hardware related talks.
[33:06.070 --> 33:11.150]  The talk on the new engineers of graffiti is only one of those talks.
[33:11.330 --> 33:16.330]  We have 11 others that you will get for your pledge to 516-620-3602.
[33:16.470 --> 33:19.130]  And again, you'll get the digital multimeter as well.
[33:19.570 --> 33:28.730]  And for a pledge of $125, in addition to all that, you will get a spy pen, which will allow you to spy on people or things or whatever suits your fancy.
[33:29.290 --> 33:31.690]  516-620-3602.
[33:31.990 --> 33:38.930]  And if 75 is a lot, and for many people it is, you can donate any amount.
[33:39.070 --> 33:39.890]  Every little bit helps.
[33:40.010 --> 33:45.870]  And while we can't, while we won't be able to give you our premiums for less than 75, we still really appreciate your support.
[33:45.870 --> 33:48.930]  And it still counts toward keeping this show and this station on the air.
[33:49.330 --> 33:52.090]  516-620-3602.
[33:52.090 --> 33:53.930]  And we do stay on the air.
[33:54.050 --> 34:07.330]  In fact, Kyle and I were talking about this before the show, the history of the station, how we've survived so many tumultuous adventures over the decades, many before my time back in the 70s and 80s.
[34:07.690 --> 34:09.670]  All kinds of things have happened.
[34:09.850 --> 34:21.130]  So people look at what's happening now, where we suddenly find ourselves uptown in Harlem, where, you know, very different from where we've been for the last bunch of years, down in Wall Street, and before that, 35th Street.
[34:22.070 --> 34:26.030]  We had a church at one point, we had a different studio in a different place.
[34:26.470 --> 34:33.590]  There have been, there have been strikes on the air, there have been shutdowns, there have been all kinds of things over the years.
[34:33.590 --> 34:42.110]  But one thing always happens, we always come back on the air and we survive to tell about it and to do all kinds of other alternative things.
[34:42.170 --> 34:55.770]  In fact, if you look at the FM radio dial in New York City, we're at 99.5, right there in the middle of the commercial dial, if you look at all the other radio stations, you'll be hard pressed to find any that have lasted the 53 years that WBI has.
[34:55.950 --> 35:01.690]  And I think with your support, we will last another 53, assuming FM lasts another 53 years.
[35:02.150 --> 35:06.910]  And we will continue to be the most interesting station on the air.
[35:07.030 --> 35:10.690]  And you know, I say that because lots of times people hear things they disagree with.
[35:11.230 --> 35:14.310]  And they might lose track of the fact that, you know, it's still interesting.
[35:14.430 --> 35:19.450]  Even if you don't agree with what you're listening to at the moment, it's still fascinating.
[35:19.490 --> 35:20.450]  It's still different.
[35:20.690 --> 35:26.790]  It's still something that, you know, if it makes you stand up and start shouting, well, okay, that's good radio as far as I'm concerned.
[35:26.790 --> 35:30.710]  And I don't think very many other radio stations are doing that.
[35:30.810 --> 35:34.890]  They kind of lull you to sleep and they want you to not, only to pay attention to the ads.
[35:35.390 --> 35:36.710]  And we don't have ads.
[35:36.810 --> 35:37.770]  We have you.
[35:37.990 --> 35:42.690]  We have you, our listeners, 516-620-3602.
[35:42.870 --> 35:52.670]  Please call in now, pledge for either the hacker hardware package number one or the hacker hardware package number two, 75 or 125 or anything else that is being offered over there.
[35:52.730 --> 35:57.270]  The important thing is to make that call, make that pledge, keep WBAI going strong.
[35:58.650 --> 36:02.130]  I just want to add that, uh, the DVDs are full color video.
[36:02.530 --> 36:14.350]  And, um, so we're playing expert excerpts of, uh, the audio from those, but there's lots of diagrams and, uh, uh, different characters associated, um, with the community and they're, they're describing things.
[36:14.350 --> 36:17.410]  A lot of times they have visual aids and stuff and the video is really great.
[36:17.410 --> 36:28.310]  If you can put it on your big screen or whatever, sit back and, uh, maybe work on some things on your machine and glance up and have, uh, uh, interesting content to, to watch and, and listen to while you're doing something else, maybe.
[36:28.530 --> 36:29.430]  You've been doing this, haven't you?
[36:29.830 --> 36:30.370]  Yeah, yeah.
[36:30.370 --> 36:34.870]  I like to sit down and, well, I test some of this stuff and, uh, I've been helping, uh, archive it.
[36:34.990 --> 36:39.530]  And, and that's one of the things that's really interesting about what 2600 does and, and the HOPE conferences are all about.
[36:39.810 --> 36:40.590]  We record things.
[36:40.710 --> 36:50.510]  We've been recording things for quite a long time with these conferences and, um, it's, it's great content and it's, uh, it's, it's, there's so much stuff going on during the events.
[36:50.610 --> 36:58.070]  I don't know if, if anybody's been to an event, it's really hard to catch everything, but to go back and see it then and compare it with like the news and what's going on now.
[36:58.210 --> 37:07.770]  And the way people looked at the issues and the way they approached them, the way they hacked stuff, the way they got around certain things and, and push the, the dialogue for, you know, further.
[37:08.030 --> 37:11.230]  And I don't know, it's, it's a great, great way to look at the history.
[37:11.450 --> 37:17.730]  And it's just, um, really, really special that, that it was captured at the time and that we have it here to offer tonight.
[37:17.730 --> 37:21.390]  So please call 516-620-3602.
[37:21.390 --> 37:22.070]  Yeah.
[37:22.230 --> 37:31.670]  You know, the history part of it, it, it never ceases to amaze me, whether it's, it's the radio show or the magazine or the conferences, uh, we capture the history and we learn from that.
[37:31.890 --> 37:42.490]  Uh, kids today are, are watching things that happened before they were born and finding it really, really interesting or, or reading things that were written in another time when technology was completely different.
[37:42.670 --> 37:45.790]  You don't learn anything by not studying the past.
[37:45.870 --> 37:52.270]  And I think that's something that, uh, applies not only to our show here at WBAI, but to almost every program that you listen to.
[37:52.530 --> 37:56.930]  And that's why the radio station itself needs to survive, needs to last, needs to prosper.
[37:57.070 --> 37:58.950]  516-620-3602.
[37:59.050 --> 38:00.410]  You can help make that happen.
[38:00.490 --> 38:05.270]  The hacker hardware package number one and number two, 75 and 125 get the digital multimeter.
[38:05.450 --> 38:07.970]  You'll get the 12 hardware related talks from the hope conferences.
[38:08.310 --> 38:13.790]  And for the 125 package, you will get a spy pen, which is all sorts of fun.
[38:14.830 --> 38:20.010]  I, it, it's, I just, what speaks to what you're saying that kids, they, they, they don't, they don't know a world.
[38:20.090 --> 38:22.150]  A lot of young people say they don't know a world without broadband.
[38:22.290 --> 38:32.550]  And here we are talking about how, how it's, uh, how there's, you know, limitations being set and throttling, all these kinds of things because of the types of traffic you're generating online.
[38:32.870 --> 38:39.490]  And I think when you go back and listen to the history, you realize that the, the internet and digital communications are still evolving.
[38:39.830 --> 38:41.030]  We get to define it.
[38:41.210 --> 38:46.610]  That's empowerment, knowing that like we get to help and we get to stand up and say like, this is wrong.
[38:46.810 --> 38:55.990]  And, and young people need to hear that, I think, and, and, um, get the stories of how it came about because it, it's not just, it hasn't always been this way.
[38:56.150 --> 39:01.470]  It may be their perspective, but, uh, it's still evolving and we, we're still building that network.
[39:02.030 --> 39:11.230]  And, uh, as I said, maybe, um, young people stand up and, and create their own public utilities before Google or somebody else comes and decides to give them connectivity.
[39:11.470 --> 39:18.710]  Well, that's an important point saying that, uh, it hasn't always been this way because when you don't know of any other way, of course, it's always been that way.
[39:18.770 --> 39:25.890]  But when you go back into history and you actually see things that have taken place a decade or two ago, you learn that, no, it was different.
[39:25.890 --> 39:30.610]  If you read something, you learn that, uh, it, it, this isn't necessarily the right way to do things.
[39:30.730 --> 39:36.430]  We didn't always have secret courts and, uh, and warrantless wiretapping and all the other horrors that we have today.
[39:36.890 --> 39:43.170]  But the way you learn about that is by listening, reading, watching, and, uh, talking amongst yourselves.
[39:43.170 --> 39:47.290]  When we say, uh, we get to do these things, we mean you get to do these things as well.
[39:47.310 --> 39:55.430]  If you join us, if you become part of the community, if you come to the conferences, read the magazine, listen to the radio show and keep the station on the air.
[39:55.750 --> 39:58.250]  516-620-3602.
[39:58.670 --> 40:03.630]  Hardware package number one, hardware package number two, uh, 75 and 125.
[40:03.930 --> 40:05.570]  You'll get the digital multimeter.
[40:05.770 --> 40:11.390]  You'll get the 12 DVD talks from hope, and you'll get the spy pens for 125.
[40:11.870 --> 40:13.070]  They are so much fun.
[40:13.350 --> 40:19.270]  Hey, I want to talk about, um, uh, I said, I want to mention something about tracking people by IP and there's a story that's been in the news.
[40:19.270 --> 40:24.530]  We've talked about this before, you know, anonymous, uh, they're always in the news and that's, that's a fun thing.
[40:24.650 --> 40:25.230]  I think it's great.
[40:25.390 --> 40:27.810]  I think it, it really keeps people paying attention.
[40:28.050 --> 40:33.010]  Uh, for instance, just today I read that, uh, in, in Bahrain, they have outlawed the guy Fox mask.
[40:33.570 --> 40:37.230]  And that's really, that shows how governments just are so clueless.
[40:37.510 --> 40:39.690]  They, they never know how to deal with these things.
[40:40.150 --> 40:45.850]  Um, so you've got that, you've got, uh, reports that the anonymous Twitter account was hacked.
[40:46.130 --> 40:46.890]  Listen to this.
[40:47.290 --> 40:54.650]  Hacking group anonymous has had a taste of its own medicine with its Twitter account hacked by little known group Russell league.
[40:54.830 --> 40:56.810]  This from sky news of Australia.
[40:57.630 --> 41:05.310]  Uh, you know, as if there's just one anonymous Twitter account, Rob, I know you had some, some thoughts about that.
[41:05.430 --> 41:07.050]  It's not exactly accurate, is it?
[41:07.050 --> 41:09.590]  Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of, uh, wonderfully ridiculous.
[41:09.590 --> 41:16.090]  Uh, the idea that there would be one official, um, Twitter account to anonymous, which by itself, by definition is decentralized.
[41:16.090 --> 41:18.010]  There is no official anything of anonymous.
[41:18.190 --> 41:19.850]  There's no official Twitter of anonymous.
[41:19.970 --> 41:26.050]  There's at least a dozen high profile, like high traffic, you know, informative Twitter accounts that are anonymous in one way or another.
[41:26.230 --> 41:32.350]  There are probably hundreds more that are, that are popping up every day, just because anybody can start one and anybody can do it.
[41:32.410 --> 41:37.290]  And it's just as valid and just as much a part of the whole, um, banner of anonymous as, uh, as anything else.
[41:37.390 --> 41:42.790]  And they say that the, uh, Anonymous' Twitter account was down for around three hours before they regained control.
[41:42.890 --> 41:44.130]  Now, I'm just wondering, how does that work?
[41:44.190 --> 41:46.270]  You call up, say, yeah, I'm the president of Anonymous.
[41:46.510 --> 41:47.650]  My Twitter account was hacked.
[41:47.750 --> 41:49.090]  Please reset the password.
[41:49.870 --> 41:56.350]  It's just, it's laughable, the way that it's being portrayed in the mass media, how these things actually operate.
[41:56.550 --> 42:01.090]  So I was planning to hack the official Twitter account of anarchism.
[42:01.190 --> 42:03.590]  Are you telling me this is a bad idea or...?
[42:03.590 --> 42:05.390]  Yeah, you need to apply for that.
[42:05.550 --> 42:07.130]  It's a lot of paperwork involved.
[42:07.850 --> 42:19.530]  But okay, so getting back to the subject of Anonymous and IP tracing, the story of the Lowell Sec, the supposed one of the main members of Lowell Sec, who turned out to be a narc himself.
[42:19.530 --> 42:20.950]  We're talking about Sabu.
[42:22.010 --> 42:29.410]  He was in the news because his sentencing was postponed again, according to the story in The Guardian.
[42:29.810 --> 42:35.450]  And he could face 124 years, which is pretty insane, obviously, for any kind of a crime.
[42:35.790 --> 42:39.170]  But yeah, that's what they're talking about.
[42:39.170 --> 42:52.210]  Now, they basically are saying that he was due to appear at a Manhattan federal court on Friday for sentencing on 10 counts of hacking, one count of bank fraud, and one of identity theft.
[42:52.310 --> 42:54.110]  That's what adds up to 124 years.
[42:54.210 --> 43:05.270]  Now, he's also alleged to have had four vehicle motors worth $3,450 sent to his address in New York, which, you know, I don't know why that's not even included in what he's being sentenced for.
[43:05.270 --> 43:07.510]  Maybe that's something else that he's being sentenced for.
[43:07.570 --> 43:09.470]  Maybe he hasn't been found guilty of that, or I don't know.
[43:10.230 --> 43:15.390]  He also is alleged to have used... and this story, by the way, doesn't say alleged anywhere, so I'm kind of wondering about that.
[43:15.570 --> 43:24.910]  He used more than a dozen stolen credit card details, they say, to make a number of purchases worth more than $1,000, which is the floor level for higher penalties under the federal code.
[43:26.790 --> 43:40.590]  And supposedly, by being involved with Losec and Anonymous, helped with DDoS attacks on places like Tunisia, Algeria, Yemen, Zimbabwe, PayPal, Visa, and MasterCard.
[43:40.830 --> 43:42.950]  You like how I included them in with the countries.
[43:43.330 --> 43:48.850]  Also, Fox News, Chicago Tribune, Sony Pictures Europe, Sony Music Entertainment, PBS, Nintendo.
[43:48.850 --> 44:03.730]  So, anyway, the point is, a lot of stuff here, but what they say in this story, which kind of rubs me the wrong way, they say his FBI handlers discovered him selling stolen credit card details on Facebook.
[44:03.950 --> 44:04.650]  Okay, fair enough.
[44:04.990 --> 44:14.290]  They traced him to his home, though, when he used an unguarded internet connection to go on the 2600.com site, which is popular with young and old hackers.
[44:15.010 --> 44:16.930]  Okay, several things there.
[44:16.990 --> 44:19.470]  Obviously, that's something we're involved with, 2600.com.
[44:20.110 --> 44:21.270]  What are they talking about?
[44:21.390 --> 44:27.270]  Are they talking about him logging into his shell account, which he had a shell account on the 2600.com machine?
[44:27.830 --> 44:31.990]  Are they talking about going to the website at 2600.com and viewing something there?
[44:32.110 --> 44:39.170]  Both of those imply, through this story, that as soon as you connect to that site, people know who you are, and they trace you.
[44:39.270 --> 44:45.010]  And I can assure you, we don't do that, and if we were aware of anyone else doing that, we would certainly be screaming about it.
[44:45.490 --> 44:53.610]  What I suspect, and I think, Rob, you agree with me on this, is that he was actually using the IRC network, which is technically not 2600.com.
[44:53.750 --> 44:56.670]  It's 2600.net, IRC.2600.net.
[44:56.970 --> 44:59.710]  Hi, all you people on the IRC network listening to us now.
[45:00.530 --> 45:11.130]  And what happened was, incredibly to me, he logged in directly from his home, and his IP address showed up as soon as he signed into a channel, and that's what they used to track him.
[45:11.130 --> 45:21.110]  Which, again, I don't understand, because if he's having engines sent to his home, and they know that he's committing credit card fraud, isn't that all that they need to find out who he is?
[45:21.570 --> 45:29.490]  It just seems like this was kind of dropped in there to make it seem like, oh, you can't trust those people at 2600.com, because as soon as you go there, you're going to get traced.
[45:29.490 --> 45:35.890]  Yeah, they want to, they want to, it seems to me like they want to paint this picture of this guy as some devious master hacker with his fingers and everything.
[45:36.090 --> 45:53.330]  But, like, if you're any kind of a devious master hacker, and you're engaging in credit card fraud, and as the story also says, selling credit card data on Facebook, which itself is goofy, and then ordering three automobile engines to his house with stolen credit card info,
[45:54.090 --> 45:59.070]  if you're doing that kind of thing, you're not a very smart person, let alone a devious master hacker of any sort.
[45:59.710 --> 46:17.550]  But, you know, to add to all of that, oh, you know, he's doing this, he's defrauding this, and he's going to that 2600 site that old and young hackers alike are into, it's, I don't see how any of this could possibly be connected, you know, apart from being part of some weird narrative that they want to weave around this guy.
[46:17.670 --> 46:33.230]  And we have to consider also that everything we hear is subject to being misrepresented, to being used for propaganda purposes, to make somebody look like they're stupid when they're not, to make us look like we're up to something when we're not, to plant doubt in people's minds,
[46:33.270 --> 46:35.330]  or to plant assumptions in people's minds.
[46:35.430 --> 46:41.590]  So always take everything you hear, whether it's from us or from the government or from anybody, with a grain of salt, find out for yourself, get the facts.
[46:41.990 --> 46:42.210]  Right?
[46:42.310 --> 46:42.990]  That's what it's all about.
[46:43.770 --> 46:50.490]  All right, but one thing that you shouldn't take with a grain of salt is the fact that we do need your pledge, because that is a fact.
[46:51.130 --> 46:52.950]  516-620-3602.
[46:53.330 --> 46:58.090]  I want to play an excerpt from another talk, because we are going to run out of time if we don't do that pretty soon.
[46:58.690 --> 47:02.070]  And this comes from our most recent HOPE conference, HOPE No.
[47:02.210 --> 47:02.530]  9.
[47:02.970 --> 47:10.950]  And what we have here is a talk by Deviant Alam, who has been on this radio program, and he's discussing the world of locks.
[47:11.170 --> 47:15.410]  In fact, this particular talk was called Mastering Master-Keyed Systems.
[47:15.550 --> 47:17.210]  One of 12 talks.
[47:17.330 --> 47:18.310]  Now you know two of the talks.
[47:18.490 --> 47:21.670]  One will be the graffiti talk, one will be a lock-picking talk.
[47:22.030 --> 47:29.890]  And you'll get 12 talks total for a pledge of either $75 or $125 to 516-620-3602.
[47:30.430 --> 47:33.130]  Just ask for the Hacker Hardware Package No.
[47:33.210 --> 47:35.270]  1 or the Hacker Hardware Package No.
[47:35.350 --> 47:35.530]  2.
[47:35.530 --> 47:40.950]  The difference is, you'll get the 12 hardware-related talks on DVD with both packages.
[47:40.950 --> 47:42.830]  You'll get the digital multimeter with both packages.
[47:42.830 --> 47:51.150]  For the 125 package, you will get a spy pen, in addition, that will allow you to record in HD on a device that looks just like a pen.
[47:51.610 --> 47:54.270]  516-620-3602.
[47:54.930 --> 48:00.790]  So let's take a brief listen to a little bit of this talk from Hope No.
[48:00.890 --> 48:04.950]  9 in 2012 from New York City.
[48:05.250 --> 48:08.610]  How many people get to other conferences around the world, around the country?
[48:09.030 --> 48:09.510]  Excellent.
[48:09.750 --> 48:16.750]  Support other cons, support your hackerspaces, support your makerspaces, support anyone who wants to learn fun stuff.
[48:17.050 --> 48:18.990]  And we love it, love it, love it.
[48:19.050 --> 48:28.730]  When people come by the lockpicking area, we love that in the lockpick village, most people get it, that locks are not these magical black boxes that you're not supposed to look inside.
[48:28.850 --> 48:32.770]  We think that you should look in and play with all of them and see how they work.
[48:32.950 --> 48:34.610]  Understand what your locks are doing.
[48:34.970 --> 48:36.510]  Understand what they're capable of.
[48:36.830 --> 48:38.290]  Understand what you're capable of.
[48:38.570 --> 48:40.610]  And we're going to talk a lot about that right now.
[48:41.490 --> 48:44.610]  So yes, I'm up here because I'm dressed in a black t-shirt.
[48:44.790 --> 48:45.850]  You know that I am with Tool.
[48:46.190 --> 48:49.030]  If you see me in nicer clothes, I'm usually with my company.
[48:49.270 --> 48:51.970]  But all in the same, they kind of just, we do the same thing.
[48:51.970 --> 48:53.450]  We break into stuff.
[48:53.630 --> 48:55.770]  One, because we think it's fun if I'm with Tool.
[48:56.050 --> 48:59.230]  And if I'm with my core company, I'm getting paid to break into stuff.
[48:59.490 --> 49:04.270]  So if you've ever considered a career in physical pen testing, I can tell you, it's a hoot.
[49:04.630 --> 49:09.290]  Running down stairwells while security's coming after you and you've got a backpack full of financial records.
[49:09.630 --> 49:11.590]  And you're totally never going to jail for it.
[49:12.710 --> 49:14.770]  It's pretty choice, I'll let you know.
[49:16.970 --> 49:21.510]  So Tool, where we don't get paid, is actually where we honestly have even more fun.
[49:21.510 --> 49:23.730]  Tool is the open organization of lock pickers.
[49:24.110 --> 49:31.290]  And all we do is go around teaching people about this because we think locks are beautiful little puzzles that should be dissected and understood.
[49:31.770 --> 49:33.150]  Tool was founded in Holland.
[49:33.510 --> 49:34.930]  Tool is now here in the U.S.
[49:35.130 --> 49:41.990]  And as long as you follow the two golden rules of lock picking or lock opening, we'll say, you're usually fine legally.
[49:42.150 --> 49:42.770]  We're not lawyers.
[49:43.090 --> 49:46.830]  Ask Alex or pay him, Alex Montz, or somebody else, and they'll tell you the law.
[49:46.830 --> 49:56.610]  But ultimately, if you do not pick locks that you don't own, and if you do not try to open locks on which you rely regularly, you should always avoid hassle.
[49:57.130 --> 50:02.710]  And we can get into more about what we mean there, and we always top off every lesson in the lock pick village with these rules.
[50:02.890 --> 50:07.610]  But ultimately, none of this knowledge is illegal unless you do illegal things with it.
[50:08.830 --> 50:21.450]  So really quickly, just in case you haven't been downstairs where we show you that all these different mechanisms are really one and the same, I want to give a quick hit on how locks function just to make sure we're all starting on the same page.
[50:21.630 --> 50:24.570]  Then we'll go through the real meat, which is master keyed systems.
[50:25.770 --> 50:29.330]  Most of you do know, I think, that locks involve pins.
[50:29.610 --> 50:31.790]  Somewhere in the most locks involve pins, right?
[50:32.250 --> 50:35.270]  So internally, this is a pin tumbler lock.
[50:36.050 --> 50:40.150]  From the outside, you can only see a little piece of one pin here.
[50:40.270 --> 50:41.370]  This is this reddish pin.
[50:41.510 --> 50:42.570]  We would call that the key pin.
[50:43.250 --> 50:50.010]  Inside, you see it's the key pin and the driver pin here, topped off by a spring, making this pin stack.
[50:50.710 --> 50:56.690]  Now, at rest, this lock cannot be turned if you have no key in it, because that driver pin is binding.
[50:56.850 --> 50:57.450]  It is in the way.
[50:58.250 --> 51:02.730]  Every time you use a lock, every time you operate it with a key, key goes in.
[51:02.890 --> 51:12.530]  That lifts the pin stack just enough so that the sheer line between those two pins is at the edge of the plug, everything is free to turn because there's nothing obstructing.
[51:12.670 --> 51:13.170]  Make sense?
[51:13.990 --> 51:14.650]  Very good.
[51:15.230 --> 51:16.470]  This is from the side.
[51:16.770 --> 51:18.190]  Same song, different verse.
[51:18.310 --> 51:21.690]  It's just a number of pin stacks reaching back into the lock.
[51:21.810 --> 51:23.250]  And they're all the same construction.
[51:23.250 --> 51:25.710]  It's just different heights on those red key pins.
[51:26.030 --> 51:36.270]  Every time you use your key, the cuts on your key, that's called the bidding of the key, has to have the exact right combination of up, down, up, down, matching all the heights, and there you are.
[51:37.010 --> 51:37.710]  Make sense again?
[51:38.410 --> 51:39.150]  Everybody nod.
[51:39.350 --> 51:40.550]  Nice and clear diagrams.
[51:40.750 --> 51:40.890]  Yes.
[51:42.450 --> 51:52.410]  Using lock picks, if you come down to the village, you will learn that it's possible to get those pins into the right position, to get all the pins right at the edge of the plug without a key.
[51:52.790 --> 51:54.490]  We're happy to show you how to do that.
[51:54.670 --> 51:58.690]  It involves basically just stressing the system slightly, as with a lot of hacking.
[51:58.850 --> 52:00.930]  You twist and bang on it and see what falls out.
[52:01.150 --> 52:10.930]  You know, you stress the system and just the right way, you cause some force and some tension and some binding, and you reach around and you can manipulate pins with sort of a hunting, seeking action.
[52:11.410 --> 52:13.550]  Please come on down if you've never tried it.
[52:13.790 --> 52:14.810]  Once again, let's see those hands.
[52:14.910 --> 52:15.750]  Who's done some lock picking?
[52:16.470 --> 52:17.250]  Is it easy?
[52:18.050 --> 52:18.450]  Yes.
[52:18.450 --> 52:20.630]  Who has never opened a lock with picks before?
[52:21.670 --> 52:22.070]  Beautiful.
[52:22.250 --> 52:23.790]  I want all those people downstairs.
[52:24.110 --> 52:26.650]  I want you downstairs after Ray does his handcuff demo.
[52:26.830 --> 52:27.650]  We're going to stick around.
[52:27.690 --> 52:28.850]  We're around all weekend.
[52:29.150 --> 52:30.310]  We love for you to come by.
[52:30.430 --> 52:32.350]  We really appreciate whenever you come by and learn.
[52:32.470 --> 52:34.710]  And it's just as easy as pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.
[52:35.290 --> 52:37.070]  Now, let's say you don't have picks.
[52:37.090 --> 52:42.850]  Or let's say you're in a situation where you're attacking a more complicated lock, something not quite so simple.
[52:43.850 --> 52:46.850]  Let's say you're in a large institution-type building.
[52:47.110 --> 52:52.450]  Big offices often will not want to have a billion different keys for every door.
[52:53.110 --> 52:57.630]  Big institutions of education, colleges, a lot of college campuses and dorms.
[52:57.750 --> 53:00.150]  All of these are master-keyed systems.
[53:00.470 --> 53:04.570]  Many of you are probably familiar with this term, yes, where there's different levels of permission.
[53:04.950 --> 53:06.950]  Some keys will only open one door.
[53:07.150 --> 53:09.590]  Other keys will open a whole series of doors, et cetera.
[53:10.110 --> 53:12.790]  Which is, you know, I realize it's not a very applicable talk.
[53:12.830 --> 53:14.770]  You don't have, like, a lot of big buildings in this city.
[53:15.070 --> 53:19.210]  But there are probably a couple, I'm going to guess, that are master-keyed.
[53:20.750 --> 53:21.690]  How does it work?
[53:21.690 --> 53:23.330]  In a nutshell, this is it.
[53:24.430 --> 53:25.170]  That's all it is.
[53:26.270 --> 53:31.070]  Additional pins in some, or all, but usually just some, of the pin stacks.
[53:31.670 --> 53:34.230]  So we have our red key pins that we saw before.
[53:34.750 --> 53:35.890]  Blue pins are all just...
[53:35.890 --> 53:37.270]  And I'm afraid I'm going to have to fade it down there.
[53:37.350 --> 53:40.390]  But I'd just like to point out, this looks so much better when you can see it.
[53:40.830 --> 53:56.470]  You're listening to it over the radio, and if you find yourself captivated by it, imagine how captivated you'll be by seeing the real thing, which you can do if you pledge 516-620-3602, pledge of $75, you'll get this, plus 11 other talks and a digital multimeter.
[53:56.850 --> 54:00.310]  For a pledge of $125, you'll get all that, plus a spy pen.
[54:00.410 --> 54:03.970]  You guys here in the studio, you were listening to this lockpicking talk as well.
[54:04.090 --> 54:05.430]  It's one of our better ones, I think.
[54:05.590 --> 54:06.430]  It really is.
[54:06.650 --> 54:15.050]  Deviant Dahlem is one of the best people you could get to speak on that subject, and he's a friend of the show, and it's just great to watch him go on about his passions like that.
[54:15.490 --> 54:21.130]  And lockpicking has always been something that's been fascinating to the hacker world, and kids are into it.
[54:21.390 --> 54:22.150]  It's just...
[54:22.150 --> 54:23.070]  It's really something.
[54:23.230 --> 54:26.190]  And, you know, you might frown upon it and think it's illegal.
[54:26.190 --> 54:26.790]  It's not.
[54:26.950 --> 54:30.870]  It's not illegal to know how a lock in your home or office works.
[54:31.150 --> 54:34.350]  It's education, and that's what we're all about.
[54:34.550 --> 54:45.390]  Yeah, a former roommate of mine had the best use of that talent that I've seen where he got locks for the apartment that he couldn't pick, and so he knew they were more secure than your standard ones.
[54:45.390 --> 54:46.710]  Yeah, education.
[54:46.970 --> 54:48.730]  That's what we stand for.
[54:48.810 --> 54:50.170]  That's what the radio station stands for.
[54:50.270 --> 55:01.010]  That's why I firmly believe that we should be supporting this place, keeping it on the air no matter where it is we're broadcasting from because the signal travels so far, so incredibly.
[55:01.350 --> 55:04.390]  The fact that this place exists in the first place is a miracle.
[55:04.710 --> 55:10.210]  There's no way you could have this kind of a signal in New York City and have this kind of programming.
[55:11.230 --> 55:14.530]  Mike, you were saying that no other radio station would broadcast this kind of material, right?
[55:14.690 --> 55:21.750]  I mean, we were only able to play a brief excerpt, but what other radio station would play on the radio how to pick a lock?
[55:22.730 --> 55:24.410]  Are there any in New York?
[55:24.570 --> 55:25.630]  Are there any in the world?
[55:25.750 --> 55:29.230]  Not at this time, certainly, and I don't think at any time do they talk about this.
[55:29.350 --> 55:30.570]  It's not because it's not interesting.
[55:30.790 --> 55:36.170]  It's because it's controversial, because big companies that sponsor radio stations wouldn't like it.
[55:36.310 --> 55:51.650]  And we're not only playing it on the radio, we're offering you a chance to get the entire piece and learn how to do this yourself, along with 11 other DVDs full of technical info on all sorts of hardware subjects if you call 516-620-3602 and get Hacker Hardware Package No.
[55:51.710 --> 55:53.570]  1 or Hacker Hardware Package No.
[55:53.630 --> 55:57.490]  2, which also includes the digital multimeter and the spy pen.
[55:57.830 --> 56:01.210]  But Rob, I hate to be the voice of doom here.
[56:01.450 --> 56:05.650]  We can only offer this package until the top of the hour.
[56:06.190 --> 56:08.010]  After that, it's not available.
[56:08.150 --> 56:09.610]  After that, you can still support the radio station.
[56:09.770 --> 56:12.110]  You can still even say Off the Hook is your favorite program.
[56:12.250 --> 56:13.810]  You can join the BAI Buddy System.
[56:13.930 --> 56:16.450]  You can go to WBAI.org and pledge there.
[56:16.550 --> 56:18.790]  But if you want the Hacker Hardware Package No.
[56:18.830 --> 56:19.330]  1 or No.
[56:19.410 --> 56:21.510]  2, you've got to call in the next 5 minutes.
[56:21.750 --> 56:24.350]  516-620-3602.
[56:25.090 --> 56:26.950]  Now, we can't see how many calls are coming in.
[56:27.110 --> 56:41.010]  We have to have faith that our listeners are there for us as we do all these transitions and move to a new studio and have a system where we can't see the calls coming in or get verification of calls coming in and how much has been pledged for.
[56:41.090 --> 56:42.170]  But we know that you're out there.
[56:42.430 --> 56:47.410]  We know this is the kind of thing that you like and we hope that you respond and keep us going.
[56:47.550 --> 56:49.670]  Again, 516-620-3602.
[56:50.170 --> 56:52.090]  Once more, the Hacker Hardware Package No.
[56:52.130 --> 56:59.670]  1 for $75 digital multimeter and 12 hardware-related talks from the HOPE conferences that have been taking place since 1994.
[57:00.630 --> 57:01.750]  Hacker Hardware Package No.
[57:01.830 --> 57:08.510]  2, digital multimeter, the 12 talks, and a spy pen, which if you're good, you won't get into any trouble with.
[57:08.630 --> 57:09.990]  You'll use it responsibly.
[57:10.470 --> 57:11.370]  That's no fun.
[57:11.610 --> 57:14.330]  Well, yeah, you're right, but at least you won't get caught.
[57:14.350 --> 57:14.950]  How about that?
[57:15.630 --> 57:16.650]  So this is it.
[57:16.710 --> 57:17.630]  We're off.
[57:17.630 --> 57:20.330]  We'll be gone for the next couple of weeks.
[57:20.730 --> 57:23.650]  You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:23.790 --> 57:24.650]  We'd love to hear from you.
[57:24.850 --> 57:33.130]  But please, in these last few moments, give a call to 516-620-3602.
[57:33.250 --> 57:36.610]  And during these last few moments, I'd just like to quickly mention a couple events going on this week.
[57:36.810 --> 57:41.490]  If you remember Phil Lapsley, who wrote the book Exploding the Phone about the history of phone freaking.
[57:41.530 --> 57:42.770]  We had him on the show about a month ago.
[57:42.950 --> 57:44.170]  He is in town.
[57:44.370 --> 57:46.930]  He will be doing a New York stop on his book tour.
[57:46.930 --> 57:51.550]  He will be doing a reading from the book at Alpha One Labs on Tuesday, March 5th at 7 p.m.
[57:51.970 --> 57:52.470]  in Brooklyn.
[57:52.970 --> 57:56.530]  More information on that can be found at alphaonelabs.com.
[57:57.350 --> 58:02.070]  This Friday, there are also 2,600 meetings going on everywhere, including near you, whether or not you're in town.
[58:02.170 --> 58:06.170]  So go to 2,600.com slash meetings and find your local hacker scene.
[58:06.390 --> 58:10.110]  And do give a call to 516-620-3602.
[58:10.370 --> 58:13.010]  There's seconds left, but we know you're out there.
[58:13.150 --> 58:13.990]  We know you care.
[58:14.350 --> 58:15.110]  This is Manuel for Off the Hook.
[58:15.210 --> 58:15.710]  See you in two weeks.
[58:15.810 --> 58:15.930]  Good night.
[58:16.930 --> 58:52.540]  They keep right on going Machines, machines They keep right on going But I am weak Well, I want to go on home I'm too tired to speak But they won't let me alone Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah Machines, machines Machines, machines They keep right on moving Machines,
[58:53.120 --> 59:09.780]  machines They keep right on moving Well, I've got to find A place to rest my head Machine, he smiled at me And say, I'm gonna be all baby
[59:27.410 --> 01:00:05.970]  Machines, machines We made them to serve us Machines, machines We built them to serve us But till the day I'm buried in my grave Just right until that day I know I'm gonna be a slave A slave A slave A slave A slave To the machines Machines They keep right on winning Machines Machines
[01:00:24.180 --> 01:00:24.700]  Wonderful.
[01:00:25.380 --> 01:00:30.060]  Hey, I love the music that comes from them, and it's WBAI.
[01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:32.200]  So you know how we do it here.