[00:00.000 --> 00:02.180]  14 years after Columbine.
[00:02.420 --> 00:03.380]  Guns in America.
[00:03.640 --> 00:09.100]  A Brooklyn for Peace forum with speakers from New Yorkers Against Gun Violence and Moms Demand Action.
[00:09.300 --> 00:11.640]  Thursday, April 25th, 7 p.m.
[00:11.760 --> 00:14.640]  at 388 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.
[00:14.840 --> 00:19.180]  For more information, call 718-624-5921.
[00:19.600 --> 00:24.120]  This event is co-sponsored by Peace Action New York State and New Yorkers Against Gun Violence.
[00:24.400 --> 00:26.860]  Thursday, April 25th, 7 p.m.
[00:26.960 --> 00:29.820]  at 388 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.
[00:30.940 --> 00:33.780]  And this is radio station WBAI New York.
[00:33.980 --> 00:36.620]  The time is 7 o'clock on a Wednesday.
[00:36.980 --> 00:38.760]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:02.220 --> 02:03.840]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:03.960 --> 02:05.120]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:05.220 --> 02:07.020]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:07.020 --> 02:08.240]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:08.480 --> 02:08.680]  Hello.
[02:08.900 --> 02:09.380]  Rob T.
[02:09.520 --> 02:09.940]  Firefly.
[02:10.140 --> 02:10.500]  Good evening.
[02:10.920 --> 02:11.620]  And Bernie S.
[02:11.700 --> 02:11.960]  Somewhere.
[02:12.480 --> 02:13.620]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:13.860 --> 02:14.360]  From Pennsylvania.
[02:14.520 --> 02:15.000]  Okay, great.
[02:15.000 --> 02:24.600]  And we're here again tonight on this wonderful spring evening talking about technology and court cases and all kinds of fun things like that.
[02:24.600 --> 02:27.540]  Because that's what the hacker world seems to be all about these days.
[02:28.580 --> 02:32.120]  We have this development that we have heard about.
[02:32.180 --> 02:33.000]  You might have heard about it too.
[02:33.300 --> 02:34.420]  This comes from the Boston Globe.
[02:34.880 --> 02:35.500]  The U.S.
[02:35.540 --> 02:39.780]  Attorney's Office in Boston has agreed to release documents in the Aaron Schwartz case.
[02:40.540 --> 02:51.660]  However, the officials are seeking to have some specific identities and materials withheld as the legal wrangling continues into the investigation of the federal prosecution of the late internet activist.
[02:52.020 --> 02:56.200]  And in calling for those redactions of names and materials, the Office of U.S.
[02:56.480 --> 03:02.020]  Attorney Carmen Ortiz expressed concerns about the safety of individuals and organizations involved in the case.
[03:02.100 --> 03:15.420]  You know, when I read that, I think to myself, isn't Carmen Ortiz the number one name that would have to be concerned about that because she's the one pretty much who spearheaded that ridiculous prosecution that eventually led Aaron to take his own life.
[03:15.580 --> 03:16.960]  Am I far off in that?
[03:17.120 --> 03:27.120]  I would assume that she's not trying to redact her own name, although these people are so crazy that it wouldn't be the first time that the government tries to redact information that everyone already knows.
[03:27.580 --> 03:32.220]  But there may be other people involved in the case, people that they talk to, witnesses.
[03:32.240 --> 03:32.860]  I don't know.
[03:32.960 --> 03:33.980]  The whole thing is kind of nuts.
[03:34.180 --> 03:34.540]  Emmanuel.
[03:34.680 --> 03:34.880]  Yes.
[03:34.880 --> 03:50.120]  I also wanted to point out that before this became a... before Aaron Schwartz's case became a federal case, when it was a Massachusetts state case, the Secret Service inserted itself into that local case and made it a federal case.
[03:50.420 --> 03:54.200]  So I think the names of those Secret Service agents should be publicized.
[03:54.380 --> 03:54.800]  Absolutely.
[03:54.940 --> 03:55.180]  Absolutely.
[03:55.300 --> 04:03.400]  And I think there are many people in the hacker community who would volunteer to expose the names once the redacted document is released because we can figure things out pretty easily.
[04:03.400 --> 04:06.020]  And, you know, looking at other cases, it wouldn't be very hard to do.
[04:06.080 --> 04:07.600]  I do think people have the right to know that.
[04:08.400 --> 04:14.400]  And I really... I don't feel good about protecting people who acted in this manner.
[04:15.080 --> 04:22.800]  And, you know, to put everything in perspective, he was arrested back in 2011, charged with hacking into MIT's network, downloading millions of articles from JSTOR.
[04:23.660 --> 04:27.800]  And there was no victim in this particular, quote-unquote, crime.
[04:27.800 --> 04:34.720]  And everybody knew that, yet they still pursued him and made him feel like he was going to spend a significant amount of time in prison.
[04:34.720 --> 04:36.780]  He would be labeled as a felon for the rest of his life.
[04:38.200 --> 04:39.080]  And basically...
[04:39.080 --> 04:43.360]  And you have to realize that these people that are doing this, this is what they do.
[04:43.360 --> 04:49.880]  It's like a career criminal type of a thing, if you want to have a metaphor or a parallel of some sort.
[04:50.980 --> 04:53.560]  If not Aaron, then they would be doing it to somebody else.
[04:53.560 --> 04:55.300]  They probably are doing it to other people right now.
[04:55.420 --> 04:56.980]  So, yeah, those names do need to come out.
[04:57.140 --> 04:57.520]  Emmanuel?
[04:57.740 --> 04:57.880]  Yes.
[04:57.880 --> 05:14.720]  Another point, you mentioned all the sort of overbearing conditions that Aaron Schwartz was looking at, including being branded a federal fed felon for the rest of his life and spending a significant amount of time in federal prison.
[05:15.220 --> 05:20.560]  He was almost certainly going to face perhaps a year...
[05:20.560 --> 05:24.940]  Well, he would certainly have faced at least three years of federal supervised release.
[05:24.940 --> 05:38.900]  And it's very likely that the terms of that supervised release would have forbade him from using a computer or being online, which was a large part of his life.
[05:38.980 --> 05:41.700]  And I'm sure that was part of what was going through his mind.
[05:41.920 --> 05:50.980]  Being removed from his community, which was largely online, for years, I think was probably something that was weighing heavily on his mind.
[05:50.980 --> 06:00.440]  And this, despite the amazing amount of support that the community was showing for him, it just goes to show that it's not enough.
[06:00.620 --> 06:09.080]  It's not enough when someone is being persecuted the way he was, that you can have all the people standing behind you and saying, yeah, we're with you.
[06:09.180 --> 06:13.660]  But in the end, it is just you that is facing that time, that's facing that label.
[06:14.180 --> 06:17.520]  And the people that perform these prosecutions, they know this.
[06:17.660 --> 06:26.160]  They know how to get inside your head and to make you either turn against your friends or confess to things you didn't do or just feel miserable for the rest of your life.
[06:26.800 --> 06:30.140]  And it's a tragedy the way this particular case ended.
[06:30.140 --> 06:35.640]  So here's a chance at least to at least have some facts that are revealed.
[06:35.640 --> 06:46.060]  Now, two weeks ago, the Schwartz estate filed a motion for the release of all discovery materials in the case, which are prohibited from public disclosure by a protective order.
[06:46.780 --> 06:56.160]  They're seeking to have minimal redactions to the documents saying the protective order hinders the public's access to vital information about Aaron's case without any substantial justifications.
[06:56.700 --> 07:01.000]  Other than covering asses, that's really what the justification is, as far as I know.
[07:02.080 --> 07:11.300]  Yeah, and there's a particular irony to this particular case because all this suppression of information pretty much goes entirely counter to what Aaron was trying to achieve in any of his work.
[07:11.400 --> 07:13.380]  He was all about opening things up and spreading access.
[07:13.560 --> 07:18.000]  And here we are fighting to get any meaningful access to the facts of his own case.
[07:18.160 --> 07:23.620]  Yeah, I think that would be no better tribute to Aaron to get all those facts released about what they were doing to him.
[07:24.560 --> 07:25.080]  All right.
[07:25.080 --> 07:33.260]  Now, we have a couple of interesting cases that were not decided so much as rulings were issued in various ways.
[07:34.140 --> 07:42.140]  There's this company called... and someone please tell me how to pronounce it because, you know, all the good names are taken now, so all the silly names are now being taken, and I don't know how to say them.
[07:43.680 --> 07:44.040]  Redigi?
[07:44.040 --> 07:44.400]  Redigi?
[07:44.600 --> 07:45.300]  How do you say it?
[07:45.380 --> 07:46.660]  R-E-D-I-G-I.
[07:46.800 --> 07:47.480]  I think it's Redigi.
[07:47.640 --> 07:49.740]  And the D is capitalized for some reason.
[07:51.000 --> 07:52.060]  Mike, do you want to weigh in on this?
[07:52.060 --> 07:56.420]  I want to, but I have nothing to say about this name.
[07:56.660 --> 07:57.020]  Emmanuel.
[07:57.100 --> 07:58.120]  Well, you've got to call it something.
[07:58.240 --> 07:58.720]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[07:58.920 --> 08:04.980]  I have heard it reported in more than one mainstream media outlet on audio as Redigi.
[08:05.260 --> 08:09.080]  Well, that's what I said, but don't parallel me to a mainstream news outlet.
[08:09.240 --> 08:12.900]  I don't want to be of that ilk, but, I mean, how are you supposed to say it?
[08:12.920 --> 08:13.400]  I don't know.
[08:13.640 --> 08:14.240]  Well, it makes sense.
[08:14.240 --> 08:23.040]  What they do was basically allow people to, weren't they, this isn't the company that was allowing, like, a broker for selling your MP3 files?
[08:23.100 --> 08:24.720]  Well, don't spoil the story, yeah.
[08:24.820 --> 08:25.320]  I'm sorry.
[08:25.420 --> 08:26.040]  Well, then it makes sense.
[08:26.280 --> 08:28.200]  Redigi is, like, it just makes sense.
[08:28.320 --> 08:30.280]  Well, Digi isn't really a word now, is it?
[08:30.380 --> 08:31.760]  Then when's the last time you Digied something?
[08:32.680 --> 08:32.980]  You know?
[08:33.200 --> 08:33.560]  Redigi?
[08:34.040 --> 08:35.500]  It's like recycling, sort of.
[08:35.780 --> 08:36.280]  Well, yeah.
[08:36.520 --> 08:37.880]  Well, cycling is a word.
[08:37.900 --> 08:40.500]  I assume the story is not actually about their name?
[08:40.500 --> 08:40.800]  Yes.
[08:41.060 --> 08:47.140]  Well, if we were able to get the transcripts of the case, we might hear the judge say it and hopefully say it properly.
[08:47.280 --> 08:48.520]  But we're going to say...
[08:48.520 --> 08:49.500]  Can we say...
[08:49.500 --> 08:50.580]  How do you want to say it, Bernie?
[08:50.780 --> 08:51.640]  I just want to get it right.
[08:51.700 --> 08:52.460]  I'll say Redigi.
[08:53.420 --> 08:53.720]  Redigi?
[08:54.260 --> 08:54.560]  Redigi.
[08:54.800 --> 08:55.180]  Not E.
[08:55.340 --> 08:55.640]  Redigi?
[08:56.460 --> 08:57.720]  Redigi, as in digital.
[08:58.340 --> 08:58.640]  Redigi.
[08:58.800 --> 08:59.860]  Yeah, but it ends in an I.
[09:00.700 --> 09:01.700]  Redigi, as in digital.
[09:01.920 --> 09:02.220]  Redigi.
[09:02.340 --> 09:03.800]  I'm going to say this, but I feel stupid.
[09:04.840 --> 09:05.380]  A U.S.
[09:05.440 --> 09:13.840]  district court in New York has ruled that Redigi, an online marketplace, that allows users to sell their purchased music files, is violating copyright law.
[09:13.920 --> 09:15.420]  Now, they're based in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
[09:15.700 --> 09:17.940]  I guess we could call them to see how they pick up their phone.
[09:19.340 --> 09:30.160]  They basically started that service back in October of 2011, and they claim to be the world's first real legal alternative to expensive online music retailers and to illegal file sharing.
[09:30.580 --> 09:39.280]  But the recording industry did not agree with that, and Capital Records, back in 2012, filed suit against them, alleging mass copyright infringement.
[09:40.440 --> 09:43.640]  Now, basically, hold on, I'm going to try to say it.
[09:44.140 --> 09:44.460]  Redi...
[09:45.240 --> 09:46.260]  I forgot how to say it.
[09:46.400 --> 09:46.720]  Redigi.
[09:47.200 --> 09:47.520]  Redigi?
[09:47.720 --> 09:48.040]  Redigi.
[09:48.200 --> 09:48.540]  I can't...
[09:48.540 --> 09:49.180]  That's not a normal word.
[09:49.180 --> 09:49.620]  I mean, that's what...
[09:49.620 --> 09:52.480]  I don't know if it's right, but that's what we agreed upon a few seconds ago.
[09:52.480 --> 09:53.760]  I'm going to pretend the I is an A.
[09:54.340 --> 09:55.720]  Yeah, I just can't do that looking at it.
[09:55.720 --> 10:10.480]  But Redigi's defense hinged upon an argument that digital files are covered under the first sale doctrine, and that states that a legitimate purchaser of a copyrighted work has the right to sell that item to someone else.
[10:10.540 --> 10:12.060]  Have you ever sold an MP3?
[10:12.720 --> 10:14.080]  Apparently, it's very hard.
[10:14.260 --> 10:18.080]  You get sued by Capital Music or whoever you said.
[10:18.400 --> 10:20.300]  Well, yeah, here's the thing.
[10:20.780 --> 10:25.600]  Now, Redigi allegedly supplied its users with a marketplace app.
[10:26.210 --> 10:38.160]  That purported not only to verify that each music track offered for sale had been legitimately purchased, but deleted the music files from their PCs or phones or whatever once the transactions closed.
[10:38.660 --> 10:48.400]  They said, in this way, Redigi gives digital goods physicality, bringing the familiar process of selling a physical good, CD, vinyl, book, et cetera, into the digital age.
[10:49.020 --> 11:02.520]  However, in an 18-page ruling on Saturday, District Judge Richard Sullivan found that despite the technical measures that are directed, redigitous service infringed on copyright owners' exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute their works.
[11:02.780 --> 11:07.060]  You know, there's just something about that that kind of makes me question.
[11:08.140 --> 11:17.940]  They say that they basically have the means to delete the file from your computer or your phone.
[11:18.900 --> 11:22.100]  But to me, that sort of is like DRM, isn't it?
[11:22.280 --> 11:26.780]  They're keeping track of if you sold it or not, and they're going in and deleting it.
[11:26.860 --> 11:29.200]  And of course, wouldn't there be a way to get around that fairly easily?
[11:29.380 --> 11:32.740]  I assume that's the copyright holder's argument, is that there is a way to get around it.
[11:32.740 --> 11:50.160]  But it's interesting, this case, particularly in light of the decision, I think we reported just last week, about the textbook case where people were purchasing textbooks in India, bringing them to the United States and selling them here, where for some reason they're more expensive.
[11:51.140 --> 12:05.040]  And so even with books where the first sale doctrine is long established, although it was upheld in that case, you see that the copyright industry really just doesn't like it that you can sell things when you're done with them.
[12:05.180 --> 12:08.780]  Well, they don't like the fact that you could sell records in the past, secondhand records.
[12:08.940 --> 12:10.420]  They were against that.
[12:10.580 --> 12:13.000]  But in the case of the textbooks, those are physical textbooks.
[12:13.140 --> 12:14.180]  They actually did print them.
[12:14.240 --> 12:15.220]  They actually did make them.
[12:15.460 --> 12:17.740]  In this particular case, it is an MP3.
[12:17.740 --> 12:19.500]  You can make a lot of copies of it.
[12:19.560 --> 12:31.800]  I'm just wondering, is it realistic to assume that that particular type of technology that allegedly goes in and deletes it and keeps track of it is enough to ensure that someone isn't making a mint, selling a whole lot of...
[12:31.800 --> 12:39.080]  Not that I know anybody that would buy MP3s secondhand from somebody, but it just seems that's not the best argument they could have used.
[12:39.200 --> 12:40.560]  What's wrong with secondhand MP3s?
[12:40.620 --> 12:41.400]  The bits don't degrade.
[12:41.500 --> 12:43.740]  No, nothing wrong with it technologically.
[12:43.900 --> 12:49.800]  But if you think that they only have one and that's it when they sell it, they're not going to have any more.
[12:50.160 --> 12:54.120]  I just think that might be a tad naive because that's not how the technology is designed.
[12:54.220 --> 12:54.340]  Rob?
[12:54.340 --> 13:06.680]  This is still pretty massive, though, because in the content industry in general, every past generation has had hard media to resell when they didn't want it anymore and used media to get for a lower price.
[13:06.880 --> 13:20.860]  And now, since everything is going to digital, music, films, games, software, whatever, everything is going to soft media, stuff that you don't have the guarantee of having continued access to as long as you've rightfully paid for it.
[13:20.860 --> 13:25.420]  But so we really... it's kind of a big deal and it needs a lot of figuring out.
[13:25.620 --> 13:31.420]  I don't know if... I don't have any easy answers to it either way, but there are people selling their work as digital to begin with.
[13:31.500 --> 13:33.700]  And so there is no hard media to argue with.
[13:33.800 --> 13:36.160]  And so is the secondhand market dead entirely?
[13:36.460 --> 13:43.740]  Well, obviously, there has to be some kind of loyalty to whoever it is that's providing you with the content where you want to support them.
[13:44.080 --> 13:53.180]  And it's not just about downloading everything for nothing and getting as much as you can and not paying a penny for that, for something that you want and enjoy.
[13:54.820 --> 14:00.460]  One thing I think I can say with certainty is that the way the industry is going about this is completely the wrong way to do it.
[14:00.520 --> 14:10.740]  If you buy a DVD, for instance, you have to sit through at least 30 seconds of warnings about not stealing the DVD or not pirating or copying without authorization or things like that.
[14:10.820 --> 14:13.220]  Odds are, if you bought the DVD, you're not the person doing that.
[14:13.220 --> 14:17.440]  That the people who do that are able to cut those little warnings out.
[14:17.460 --> 14:18.800]  So they're the ones who don't see it.
[14:19.060 --> 14:25.860]  And it just, it kind of upsets me when basically, if I buy a movie on a DVD, the first thing I see is a threat.
[14:25.980 --> 14:28.180]  And the last thing I see in the closing credits is a threat.
[14:28.880 --> 14:31.440]  It just makes you kind of want to say, you know what?
[14:31.480 --> 14:32.800]  The pirates don't seem so bad.
[14:33.280 --> 14:35.040]  Maybe you guys don't deserve anything.
[14:35.220 --> 14:48.080]  And it does have to be about voluntarily supporting things that you want to support though, because effectively, you know, legally, there's one thing, but technologically, effectively, realistically, people have access to get anything they want basically for free now.
[14:48.380 --> 14:50.320]  And so every purchase is...
[14:50.320 --> 14:51.340]  Well, not food, unfortunately.
[14:51.820 --> 14:52.000]  Well, not food.
[14:52.300 --> 14:53.640]  Media-wise, though.
[14:53.980 --> 14:54.140]  Media-wise, yeah.
[14:54.300 --> 15:06.180]  Media-wise, you can basically get anything you want for free if you look for it, which means that people have to basically adapt to a new reality where you have to convince the public that you're worth paying for instead of just stealing.
[15:06.180 --> 15:07.020]  And, you know...
[15:07.020 --> 15:10.000]  I think, you know, we underestimate the public.
[15:10.560 --> 15:11.200]  I was...
[15:11.200 --> 15:23.980]  Admittedly, I was a little worried when we went on the Kindle and the amount of people that came out and said, yeah, you know, I'm going to subscribe to 2600 on the Kindle, you know, put us ahead of Forbes magazine.
[15:24.100 --> 15:25.040]  That's how many did it.
[15:25.160 --> 15:26.940]  And that tells me that people...
[15:26.940 --> 15:29.840]  Yeah, you can probably figure out how to get the content for free.
[15:30.080 --> 15:31.500]  Not too difficult to do that.
[15:31.720 --> 15:42.180]  But if you believe in something and you want to support it, much like this radio station, much like people can listen to the radio for nothing, but if you contribute something, it makes it stronger, it keeps it around.
[15:42.500 --> 15:44.600]  I think people do that.
[15:44.740 --> 15:51.920]  They naturally want to do that, but they don't react well when they're basically taken advantage of.
[15:51.980 --> 15:52.960]  And I see that so much.
[15:53.140 --> 15:53.600]  Emmanuel.
[15:53.820 --> 15:54.200]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[15:54.200 --> 16:00.980]  This isn't really anything new, and it's really nothing to do with... necessarily has to do with digital technology.
[16:01.340 --> 16:05.160]  As Rob was pointing out, I remember back in the 1970s...
[16:05.160 --> 16:06.580]  Yes, I was around back then.
[16:06.780 --> 16:07.300]  Do you remember?
[16:07.500 --> 16:08.060]  And you were too.
[16:08.220 --> 16:19.820]  Do you remember when the RIA, the Recording Industry Association of America, the RIAA, was... basically went to federal court and said that anybody who buys blank recording tape is a thief?
[16:19.820 --> 16:23.900]  I was playing with baseball cards and jacks and things like that.
[16:23.900 --> 16:26.220]  I wasn't paying attention to what court cases were going on.
[16:26.320 --> 16:33.780]  You know, I was doing that too, but they were saying that anybody who buys blank recording tape is a thief.
[16:34.140 --> 16:51.800]  And they successfully imposed a tax on all blank recording tape, saying that if you buy blank tape, you're a thief and should have to pay a portion of what the total thievery of the of people using blank recording tape was...
[16:51.800 --> 16:56.200]  And of course, the vast majority of blank recording tape was not being used to violate copyright.
[16:56.380 --> 16:58.340]  People were recording their own stuff for all kinds of things.
[16:58.460 --> 16:58.620]  Right.
[16:59.340 --> 16:59.780]  Yet...
[16:59.780 --> 17:00.540]  So this isn't anything new...
[17:00.540 --> 17:01.600]  Well, it's this fear.
[17:01.700 --> 17:03.100]  It's this fear of anything new, Bernie.
[17:03.220 --> 17:10.340]  It's basically anytime something innovative comes along or new technology, the existing dinosaurs of industry want to fight it.
[17:10.380 --> 17:11.200]  They want to control it.
[17:11.320 --> 17:14.480]  They're worried that they're going to lose whatever control they have.
[17:14.480 --> 17:23.080]  And we're seeing that in so many different arenas today with the advent of all sorts of new technologies, seeing in the whole publishing world, in the recording industry, the film industry.
[17:23.340 --> 17:28.360]  I just found some old recorded tapes for my family from many decades ago.
[17:28.540 --> 17:30.840]  And one of the things that people kept doing...
[17:30.840 --> 17:32.260]  This goes back to the 1950s.
[17:32.300 --> 17:34.360]  People were recording music off the radio.
[17:34.600 --> 17:36.300]  And it's really amazing to hear this.
[17:36.440 --> 17:39.700]  But people want to hear things on their own terms.
[17:39.700 --> 17:40.920]  They want their own copy.
[17:40.920 --> 17:46.400]  And yeah, I guess you could say back then, recording something off the radio, was that legal or not?
[17:46.400 --> 17:47.280]  Nobody really knew.
[17:47.420 --> 17:48.440]  It wasn't tested.
[17:48.780 --> 17:50.600]  And you didn't have file sharing.
[17:50.740 --> 17:52.140]  You didn't have MP3s back then.
[17:52.260 --> 17:54.900]  That was the closest you could probably get to piracy.
[17:55.140 --> 17:56.240]  Do you remember, Emanuel?
[17:56.420 --> 18:05.720]  There was a radio format, I'm sure you remember, album-oriented rock, where a lot of stations, they would make it a point to broadcast an entire album.
[18:06.000 --> 18:07.840]  The 12 o'clock album side, I remember that.
[18:07.840 --> 18:12.520]  From beginning to end, without any commercial breaks, so that you would be able to record it without interruption.
[18:13.200 --> 18:16.380]  And so radio station DJs were actively promoting this.
[18:17.080 --> 18:20.060]  But of course, people, once they would make their own recording, be like, you know what?
[18:20.060 --> 18:21.880]  This is so good, I'm going to go out and buy the LP.
[18:22.380 --> 18:23.620]  And that was the point of it.
[18:23.620 --> 18:25.940]  If it was good content, you'll buy it and support it.
[18:26.420 --> 18:26.740]  Absolutely.
[18:27.120 --> 18:34.740]  Even today, I find myself buying MP3s of old songs I used to listen to on the radio back then, because I hear them again, and I want a decent copy of them.
[18:34.740 --> 18:35.120]  But you know what?
[18:35.140 --> 18:40.020]  They never sound as good as they did on that cruddy tape player when you recorded it off an AM radio.
[18:40.820 --> 18:44.760]  Okay, continuing here with more court cases and another crazy name of a company.
[18:44.900 --> 18:45.960]  All right, how do we pronounce this one?
[18:46.040 --> 18:47.220]  A-E-R-E-O.
[18:47.480 --> 18:47.900]  Aereo.
[18:48.100 --> 18:48.540]  Aereo?
[18:48.660 --> 18:49.280]  Is that really how you...
[18:49.280 --> 18:51.100]  Okay, that's not how I would spell Aereo.
[18:51.160 --> 18:52.680]  I think we should pronounce it re-digy.
[18:53.680 --> 18:54.660]  Re-dig-a.
[18:54.920 --> 18:55.240]  All right.
[18:56.380 --> 18:57.260]  Okay, Aereo.
[18:57.640 --> 19:00.940]  They're another company that's doing something a little controversial.
[19:02.500 --> 19:10.920]  They challenged the television business, basically, by, I guess, re-transmitting without paying fees to re-transmit.
[19:11.180 --> 19:13.980]  Well, that's the copyright owner's argument.
[19:14.200 --> 19:15.400]  Yeah, that's what they...
[19:15.400 --> 19:17.960]  I don't want to spoil the case, but that argument lost in court.
[19:18.440 --> 19:20.720]  Well, you just did spoil the whole story, Mike.
[19:20.880 --> 19:21.520]  Yeah, well, I don't want to.
[19:21.680 --> 19:22.140]  I just...
[19:22.140 --> 19:22.920]  Some things...
[19:22.920 --> 19:33.180]  The Federal Appeals Court in New York on Monday upheld a ruling in favor of Aereo, which is the startup internet service that streams television stations without compensating them.
[19:34.220 --> 19:34.700]  The...
[19:34.700 --> 19:36.360]  I don't understand that.
[19:36.520 --> 19:37.540]  I'll get to that in a moment.
[19:37.680 --> 19:42.060]  I just don't understand the concept of compensating a station because people are able to see it.
[19:43.200 --> 19:44.060]  All right, whatever.
[19:44.700 --> 19:49.920]  The broadcasters were very surprised and disappointed, and they said they were confident they would prevail eventually.
[19:50.680 --> 19:57.260]  Now, Aereo is available only in New York City right now, but they plan to offer their service in nearly 2,000 more cities this year.
[19:57.360 --> 19:58.120]  Now, it's...
[19:58.780 --> 20:01.620]  It was started by the media mogul Barry Diller.
[20:02.320 --> 20:03.840]  Wasn't he an enemy at one point?
[20:05.060 --> 20:05.540]  I'm sorry?
[20:05.700 --> 20:06.720]  He started QVC.
[20:06.840 --> 20:08.620]  Yeah, but didn't he also run some other...
[20:08.620 --> 20:09.840]  Maybe I'm mixing it up with somebody else.
[20:09.880 --> 20:12.300]  Oh, yeah, he played both sides of this copyright game, I'm sure.
[20:12.440 --> 20:12.600]  Uh-huh.
[20:12.700 --> 20:20.180]  But he's a very innovative guy, and this is a very innovative company as far as their work around on how they do this.
[20:20.460 --> 20:21.940]  You're familiar with how Aereo works?
[20:22.180 --> 20:25.400]  Well, I was about to explain that, unless you want to ruin that part of the story.
[20:27.220 --> 20:33.580]  Aereo is able to stream broadcast stations by operating an array of tiny antennas that pick up over-the-air signals.
[20:33.920 --> 20:36.120]  If someone sees one of those antennas, please point it out to me.
[20:36.220 --> 20:38.100]  I assume they're in a data center somewhere.
[20:38.780 --> 20:40.100]  What, the antennas are in a data center?
[20:40.260 --> 20:41.940]  I don't think they're just hanging out on the street.
[20:41.940 --> 20:43.880]  Well, that's where you get a better signal is outside.
[20:44.020 --> 20:44.400]  On the roof.
[20:44.640 --> 20:45.540]  Yeah, that's where I would put them.
[20:46.320 --> 20:53.320]  Subscribers pay about $8 a month, and they receive control over one antenna, and they can select programming over the internet.
[20:53.640 --> 20:55.160]  I think that's an awesome idea.
[20:55.460 --> 20:57.600]  And let me tell you, in Canada, this is how we do it.
[20:57.700 --> 21:00.220]  And I say we because I have a Canadian dish, and I feel like a Canadian.
[21:00.660 --> 21:04.160]  I'm able to watch television in whatever city I feel like.
[21:04.400 --> 21:04.860]  All right?
[21:04.920 --> 21:07.580]  I can see things delayed several hours.
[21:07.580 --> 21:09.420]  I can see things before they show up here.
[21:09.420 --> 21:14.600]  I can see even American channels in various markets, because in Canada, this is not a big deal.
[21:14.820 --> 21:15.780]  It's called time shifting.
[21:16.140 --> 21:19.360]  And you simply watch what's going on in another city.
[21:19.540 --> 21:20.320]  You see their newscast.
[21:20.460 --> 21:21.460]  You see their weather forecast.
[21:21.700 --> 21:24.140]  Is this related to the half an hour later in Newfoundland?
[21:24.620 --> 21:26.100]  It's a half hour earlier in Newfoundland.
[21:26.180 --> 21:26.800]  Half hour earlier?
[21:26.920 --> 21:27.120]  Yeah.
[21:27.600 --> 21:27.720]  Yeah.
[21:28.180 --> 21:28.580]  Yeah.
[21:28.680 --> 21:31.760]  Atlantic Time is one hour before us, and Newfoundland is a half hour before them.
[21:31.800 --> 21:33.660]  But the television programs, they're on a half hour later.
[21:33.840 --> 21:35.700]  And St. Pierre and Miquelon is a half hour before that.
[21:39.420 --> 21:43.580]  In this particular case, I don't get what the big deal is, why they're upset at this.
[21:43.800 --> 21:53.180]  If somebody, say, in San Francisco, is able to watch a New York City television station, why would the New York City television station not feel that's a good thing for them?
[21:53.180 --> 21:54.980]  They're seeing their advertising, right?
[21:55.720 --> 21:59.840]  They can charge their advertisers more because all of a sudden their audience has gotten bigger.
[21:59.980 --> 22:01.940]  It's like they've gotten a free transmitter in another city.
[22:02.780 --> 22:04.640]  Am I misrepresenting this?
[22:04.640 --> 22:05.680]  No, I think it's...
[22:05.680 --> 22:07.560]  I mean, they're helping the TV stations.
[22:07.720 --> 22:09.660]  Basically, more people are going to see their commercials.
[22:11.180 --> 22:12.000]  It's a great idea.
[22:12.100 --> 22:14.080]  The antennas, by the way, are about the size of your thumbnail.
[22:14.940 --> 22:21.800]  And they're soldered on a circuit board that are in great big arrays of antennas up on the roof of this data center.
[22:22.220 --> 22:23.720]  And you're also renting...
[22:23.720 --> 22:25.560]  For the $8 a month, you're not just renting the antenna.
[22:25.740 --> 22:30.560]  You're renting a digital television receiver and a virtual DVR.
[22:30.560 --> 22:41.360]  So not only can you stream, you know, see the live stream from any of these New York TV stations, but you can also record them, just like if you were sitting there in New York doing it.
[22:41.800 --> 22:43.400]  But you're renting it for $8 a month.
[22:43.560 --> 22:53.320]  And I see no downside to the broadcasters here, except they're not getting what they feel is owed them, that they get paid from the cable companies.
[22:53.380 --> 22:57.780]  The cable companies have to pay the TV broadcasters a retransmission fee.
[22:58.420 --> 23:01.260]  And Barry Diller's company, Aereo, is circumventing that.
[23:01.560 --> 23:02.520]  But, you know, what's the difference?
[23:02.540 --> 23:08.740]  When you're watching a TV there in New York, you're not paying a fee to anybody.
[23:08.920 --> 23:11.160]  You're paying that in watching the ads.
[23:11.300 --> 23:11.460]  Right.
[23:11.540 --> 23:12.540]  And I always thought...
[23:12.540 --> 23:15.920]  Wasn't it true in the past that cable companies didn't have to pay anything?
[23:16.100 --> 23:18.100]  They were called must-carry TV stations?
[23:18.220 --> 23:19.980]  So it's more complicated than that.
[23:19.980 --> 23:25.640]  The way the must-carry thing works is a television station can choose.
[23:25.800 --> 23:29.460]  Either the television station says, Hey, cable companies, you must carry us.
[23:30.040 --> 23:35.640]  Or the TV station says, You don't have to carry us, but if you want to carry us, you have to pay us.
[23:35.720 --> 23:41.920]  So the TV channel gets to choose whether they're carried for free or they want to try and negotiate something.
[23:42.140 --> 23:47.560]  But if they choose the latter option and the negotiations fail, then they don't get carried.
[23:47.560 --> 23:52.820]  So only the most popular stations would be paid in that logic.
[23:52.980 --> 23:53.360]  Emmanuel?
[23:53.640 --> 23:53.880]  Yes.
[23:53.980 --> 23:55.960]  It's actually even more complicated than that.
[23:56.120 --> 23:57.640]  It's ridiculously complicated.
[23:57.860 --> 24:10.880]  But on the basic tier of the cable TV service, like the lowest price you could pay for cable TV service, the FCC requires the cable company to carry all the local TV stations.
[24:11.240 --> 24:17.700]  But if you want any of the upper-tier channels, I'm not even talking about HBO or Showtime, that kind of stuff.
[24:17.880 --> 24:20.740]  I'm talking about just the next tier up, because there are several tiers.
[24:21.260 --> 24:25.760]  Then they are not required to carry the local stations.
[24:27.160 --> 24:29.400]  And the broadcaster can say, Aha!
[24:29.680 --> 24:32.460]  For anything but the basic tier, you have to pay us a retransmission.
[24:32.460 --> 24:32.640]  Right.
[24:32.660 --> 24:37.580]  But the local stations can circumvent that by saying, If you want to carry us, you have to pay us.
[24:37.580 --> 24:44.220]  And if they don't pay them, you see what happened with Channel 11 and Cablevision not too long ago, where you get a blank screen or some other channel.
[24:44.720 --> 25:00.100]  But it used to be, I'm pretty sure, it used to be that channels just were carried by cable TV networks, and it was considered a service, because people didn't have to worry about putting antennas on their roofs, and the TV stations were coming in crystal clear throughout a wider range.
[25:00.200 --> 25:01.100]  And it was good for the stations.
[25:01.200 --> 25:08.120]  I don't know when that changed or why it had to change, but now it's gotten extremely litigious and unpleasant.
[25:08.320 --> 25:12.160]  But in any event, this particular ruling, I think, is a good thing of the broadcast industry.
[25:12.240 --> 25:14.120]  And that includes PBS of all networks.
[25:14.260 --> 25:18.620]  PBS says they intend to move to trial about this.
[25:18.820 --> 25:23.140]  Today's decision is a loss for the entire creative community, they said in the statement.
[25:23.780 --> 25:29.480]  The court has ruled that it's okay to steal copyrighted material and retransmit it without compensation.
[25:30.020 --> 25:33.240]  How is it stealing copyrighted material?
[25:33.300 --> 25:36.460]  It's broadcast over the free airwaves in the first place.
[25:36.720 --> 25:38.080]  You know, you should be encouraged.
[25:38.260 --> 25:39.960]  You should be required to retransmit it.
[25:40.200 --> 25:45.460]  In fact, if anyone's listening to this right now, we want you to retransmit and copy and spread around.
[25:45.600 --> 25:46.740]  That's why we broadcast.
[25:46.960 --> 25:47.280]  Emmanuel?
[25:47.520 --> 25:47.760]  Yes.
[25:47.900 --> 25:55.100]  One of the big ironies in all this is that the television broadcasters, not only are they broadcasting this over the free airwaves, they are doing so freely.
[25:55.360 --> 26:02.780]  The FCC is allocating those frequencies to them, which have a huge financial value, these frequencies, almost free of charge.
[26:02.900 --> 26:06.420]  The license fees they pay are really a pittance compared to their revenue.
[26:07.520 --> 26:23.420]  So TV broadcasters are reaping the benefits of this public resource, the public airwaves, to transmit or to stream over the air, programming including all kinds of commercials, which is how they make their revenue.
[26:23.420 --> 26:32.340]  And now they're complaining to the courts, the very government that is allowing them to use this public resource for free, that they're not getting a bigger piece of the pie.
[26:32.500 --> 26:33.540]  It's just greed is what it is.
[26:33.580 --> 26:43.900]  And what I was alluding to before with their dinosaur-like actions with any new technology, where they have to fight it and see it as the enemy, instead of embracing it, figuring out ways it can be advantageous to them.
[26:43.900 --> 26:45.600]  It's just... it's really sad to see.
[26:45.740 --> 26:58.100]  Another development, though, with this case, or a related case, the broadcasters are cheered up, in part, by a victory in December, out in Los Angeles, against another company that's like Aereo.
[26:58.160 --> 27:00.040]  In fact, the company is called Aereo Killer.
[27:00.620 --> 27:02.020]  And I don't understand that.
[27:02.020 --> 27:04.120]  If they're like Aereo, why do they want to kill them?
[27:04.640 --> 27:05.340]  Aereo Killer.
[27:05.460 --> 27:08.060]  But it's backed by a rival billionaire named...
[27:08.060 --> 27:09.460]  Oh, let me try to get this right.
[27:10.180 --> 27:11.100]  Alcaviades David.
[27:11.860 --> 27:13.200]  Maybe it's Alcaviades David.
[27:13.200 --> 27:14.580]  Maybe that's how you're supposed to say that name.
[27:14.640 --> 27:15.240]  Giller rhymes with Giller.
[27:15.940 --> 27:16.640]  Oh, really?
[27:16.760 --> 27:20.560]  Okay, well, it's probably some kind of competition between two billionaires here.
[27:20.780 --> 27:32.560]  So CBS alluded to that particular ruling when it said in the statement on Monday, as the courts continue to consider this case and others like it, we are confident that the rights of content owners will be recognized and that we will prevail.
[27:32.800 --> 27:33.960]  That kind of scares me.
[27:34.140 --> 27:42.280]  Yeah, and we at this show have experience with this sort of thing because every so often we get approached by people who say, hey, I have this shortwave signal or this other signal.
[27:42.280 --> 27:43.620]  Can I rebroadcast off the hook?
[27:43.800 --> 27:45.400]  And we send our lawyers after them.
[27:45.540 --> 27:46.140]  We totally do.
[27:46.480 --> 27:49.800]  No, as we usually say, we're generally okay with that thing.
[27:49.880 --> 27:54.700]  Just say where you got it and do what you like because the reason we do this show is for people to hear it.
[27:54.960 --> 27:56.300]  We're broadcast freely over the air.
[27:56.400 --> 27:57.880]  We're broadcast freely over the net.
[27:58.020 --> 27:59.480]  And we're podcasting everything else.
[27:59.620 --> 28:04.380]  And yeah, we're generally okay with more people hearing the show that we do for people to hear.
[28:04.580 --> 28:06.240]  That doesn't make any sense to me at all, Rob.
[28:06.240 --> 28:07.840]  That's not what the purpose of broadcasting is.
[28:07.840 --> 28:12.160]  If we were paid a lot of money, would we feel the same way?
[28:12.860 --> 28:16.960]  Actually, I don't see why we wouldn't feel the same way because we still get paid a lot of money and more people would hear us.
[28:18.000 --> 28:19.320]  I don't understand it.
[28:19.320 --> 28:24.840]  Rich people have very silly priorities that I think we're just not capable of understanding.
[28:25.040 --> 28:34.080]  If you're a rich person, please call us or write to us and let us know how the logic works because I'm all into figuring things out and this is something I genuinely am puzzled by.
[28:34.780 --> 28:39.420]  Bernie, there was a development in your city of Philadelphia concerning security cameras.
[28:39.560 --> 28:39.820]  What's this?
[28:39.920 --> 28:44.000]  The city is giving organizations money to put up spy cameras now?
[28:44.260 --> 28:50.060]  Well, not just organizations, but any business, like a small business, just like your mom-and-pop bodega on the street corner.
[28:50.220 --> 28:59.720]  They are encouraging them to install surveillance cameras pointing out into the public streets and sidewalks by paying them up to $3,000.
[29:00.220 --> 29:01.280]  $3,000?
[29:01.280 --> 29:17.520]  Yeah, to subsidize up to 50% of the cost of their exterior TV cameras, with one requirement, that the Philadelphia police be allowed 24-7 access to the streaming video from these surveillance cameras.
[29:17.520 --> 29:32.880]  So, this is really interesting that the city of Philadelphia's government is bribing shop owners and business owners to set up surveillance cameras that the police can use.
[29:34.060 --> 29:39.100]  I was trying to think of, of course, lots of privacy implications for this, but I was trying to think of a legal implication.
[29:39.280 --> 29:51.020]  And one of this is, if the government is subsidizing the little computer box, the DVR that streams the video, then that would be considered a protected computer under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.
[29:51.020 --> 30:07.720]  So, if anybody, like, put a sock over one of those cameras or otherwise disabled them pointing at the street because they wanted more privacy, like if one of the cameras happened to be pointed into your bedroom window and you decided on which to put a piece of spray some paint over that lens,
[30:07.940 --> 30:16.140]  you could be charged federally under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which was what was, you know, our friend Aaron Schwartz was charged with.
[30:16.140 --> 30:16.660]  Hey, Bernie.
[30:17.060 --> 30:17.380]  Yes.
[30:17.580 --> 30:24.560]  So, people on this radio program, people in this community, people in the hacker community, whatever, are a lot smarter than federal prosecutors.
[30:24.720 --> 30:26.800]  They would not have thought of this for years.
[30:26.940 --> 30:28.600]  Why are you giving them the idea?
[30:29.000 --> 30:31.860]  Well, you know, I give them credit, though.
[30:31.960 --> 30:35.980]  They are very good at figuring out ways to charge people because that's their bread and butter.
[30:36.100 --> 30:39.640]  That's how they make their living is by these notches on their guns.
[30:39.840 --> 30:44.340]  But it would be 10 years before they figured out that the computer inside the camera is a computer.
[30:44.340 --> 30:46.300]  You know, I blew it.
[30:46.360 --> 30:46.700]  I'm sorry.
[30:47.420 --> 30:47.740]  All right.
[30:47.840 --> 30:53.040]  Well, so, it seems kind of clever by the Philly Police Department there that they don't have to put out the cameras themselves.
[30:53.040 --> 31:02.320]  They can simply bribe companies to do it and reap all the material that they collect and do God knows what with it.
[31:03.540 --> 31:07.180]  So, is that the first time this has happened in this nation that you know of?
[31:07.400 --> 31:07.600]  No.
[31:07.600 --> 31:16.420]  I don't know of any other cities where it's been doing, but they've been talking about this for a couple years here in Philly, but they finally just announced it as of April 1st, and it was an April Fool's joke.
[31:16.920 --> 31:19.500]  They were going to pay up to $3,000, up to half the cost.
[31:19.780 --> 31:20.440]  So, I don't...
[31:20.440 --> 31:22.960]  And taxpayers, of course, are paying that, which is the ultimate irony.
[31:23.300 --> 31:24.280]  But, Mike, you know of other places?
[31:24.280 --> 31:43.620]  So, it's not exactly the same, but in San Francisco, a lot of entertainment businesses, nightclubs or bars or whatever, are required on their permit in order to get their alcohol permit or however it works to provide surveillance systems and live access and free access to the police.
[31:43.620 --> 31:50.440]  So, the city isn't paying for it in that case, except by not shutting the bars down.
[31:50.620 --> 31:55.520]  And, of course, the few bars that actually try and fight this generally win because it's totally absurd.
[31:55.720 --> 31:57.740]  But most places just say, yeah, sure.
[31:58.080 --> 31:58.820]  I would...
[31:58.820 --> 32:08.120]  If I was running a bar in San Francisco, and it's not beyond the realm of possibility, I would simply have a recorded program that I would simply transmit to the police every night.
[32:08.120 --> 32:08.920]  Or maybe I'd have a few.
[32:09.100 --> 32:11.120]  Maybe I'd have a different one, Tuesday night version and Wednesday night.
[32:11.300 --> 32:12.660]  And they would just see...
[32:12.660 --> 32:17.560]  It would be of the bar, but we'd pay performers to put on a little show for them.
[32:17.780 --> 32:19.620]  And they would think that's what's going on.
[32:19.640 --> 32:22.020]  And they'd wonder why the same thing happened week after week.
[32:22.260 --> 32:24.960]  But, eventually, I think they'd get bored and stop watching.
[32:25.080 --> 32:25.820]  Or we'd get new viewers.
[32:26.160 --> 32:26.240]  Yeah.
[32:26.880 --> 32:27.160]  All right.
[32:27.260 --> 32:28.340]  That sounds like a lot of work.
[32:30.060 --> 32:36.040]  Well, it's called protecting your client's privacy, people inside, and your own, too.
[32:36.620 --> 32:37.540]  Uh, okay.
[32:37.680 --> 32:38.780]  Uh, it's an auspicious occasion.
[32:38.920 --> 32:40.500]  It usually is in one form or another.
[32:40.680 --> 32:42.620]  I'm not sure how accurate this actually is, though.
[32:42.860 --> 32:55.540]  Uh, but, um, 40 years ago today, April 3rd, 1973, Motorola engineer Martin Cooper made a call in downtown Manhattan on a Motorola DynaTAC.
[32:55.820 --> 33:01.000]  Uh, the device is widely credited with being used for the first mobile conversation.
[33:01.420 --> 33:06.860]  It was 9 inches tall, used 30 circuit boards, and took 10 hours to recharge.
[33:07.900 --> 33:12.960]  And, uh, that is, uh, something that allegedly happened 40 years ago today.
[33:13.120 --> 33:15.220]  The first mobile phone call, Bernie?
[33:15.700 --> 33:16.580]  No, they've actually...
[33:16.580 --> 33:18.300]  Mobile phones have been around since the 40s.
[33:18.320 --> 33:23.060]  This was really the first cellular phone call that, uh, Motorola developed as a proof of concept.
[33:23.100 --> 33:23.780]  Hang on a second.
[33:23.780 --> 33:25.720]  I've seen a lot of movies in the 1940s.
[33:25.760 --> 33:27.300]  I've never seen anybody talking on a cell phone.
[33:27.300 --> 33:27.660]  Oh, I have.
[33:27.780 --> 33:31.200]  I've seen some old black-and-white movies where they're driving around on a, on a, on a, talking on a phone.
[33:31.320 --> 33:31.620]  There were...
[33:31.620 --> 33:33.020]  The capacity was very limited.
[33:33.020 --> 33:36.940]  Only, like, a handful of people in any given city could access the limited radio channels.
[33:37.200 --> 33:45.620]  The whole point of cellular was you could divvy up those radio, radio channels into little cells across a whole metropolitan area, which made it a mass market thing.
[33:45.820 --> 33:48.400]  This phone, by the way, I used to have a DynaTAC.
[33:48.480 --> 33:49.080]  You remember that thing?
[33:49.180 --> 33:54.180]  It was, it was, it was, like you said, about 9 inches tall, but the, but the antenna was also about 9 inches tall.
[33:54.240 --> 33:56.380]  So the thing was about a foot and a half tall.
[33:56.380 --> 33:57.500]  Wait, you used to have one?
[33:57.560 --> 33:58.580]  Why would you get rid of this?
[33:58.900 --> 34:03.980]  Well, um, the Secret Service actually confiscated it from me during 1995, and they raided my home.
[34:04.540 --> 34:05.620]  And they never gave it back, huh?
[34:05.940 --> 34:06.260]  No.
[34:07.220 --> 34:07.700]  Oh, well.
[34:07.840 --> 34:08.080]  Wow.
[34:09.040 --> 34:10.120]  Okay, I'm sorry about that.
[34:10.200 --> 34:11.500]  That really, uh, that's terrible.
[34:11.860 --> 34:18.220]  But it was, it was, it was, you know, think of how it has changed our lives, having a phone anywhere we go.
[34:18.700 --> 34:19.560]  I mean, when we...
[34:19.560 --> 34:23.560]  You know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to talk to you about that, Bernie, because, uh, I've been thinking a lot about this.
[34:23.560 --> 34:26.360]  I'm not so sure it's changed our lives in a very good way.
[34:26.480 --> 34:31.580]  I think it's, uh, it's kind of, uh, torn apart all kinds of, uh, of social interaction.
[34:31.580 --> 34:33.380]  It's, it's, it's lowered our intelligence.
[34:33.380 --> 34:36.260]  It's made us, uh, uh, slaves to this technology.
[34:36.800 --> 34:44.760]  You know, and I love technology, but I see the way people are, are, are walking around today, glued to their, to their cell phones, their smartphones.
[34:45.140 --> 34:47.860]  And I got a question, how good a thing it really is.
[34:48.040 --> 34:50.480]  I'm not saying it's, it's a, it's a great thing for society.
[34:50.480 --> 34:51.520]  It's got its downsides.
[34:51.680 --> 35:01.000]  I'm just saying, I'm just saying change for the, for the better or worse, it has changed our, our, our society or our lives in, in truly dramatic ways.
[35:01.000 --> 35:08.020]  Not just the phone aspect of it, but of all the other access, it gives us text, text communications, internet communications, anywhere you go.
[35:08.220 --> 35:12.520]  It has dramatically altered how we interact with people for good and bad.
[35:13.560 --> 35:14.000]  Yeah.
[35:14.160 --> 35:25.160]  And I, I just, I'm not, I'm not tearing down the entire industry, uh, or the idea of, of, uh, staying in touch, but I, I just think that, um, that it's, it's gone a little too far.
[35:25.420 --> 35:43.460]  I, I look around outside, walking around and the majority of people are staring into little tiny screens as they, as they walk on the street or as they sit on a bus or nobody can, can read a newspaper anymore or, or can, uh, uh, can, can basically do anything like have a conversation with people you're sitting next to inside a cafe,
[35:43.460 --> 35:47.740]  you know, go around, look around and see what, how many people are with other people yet.
[35:47.860 --> 35:55.100]  They're talking, I don't know if they're talking to people or they're just advertising where they are, who they're with or, or, or whatnot, but I don't know.
[35:55.160 --> 35:56.100]  Am I, am I alone in this?
[35:56.200 --> 35:56.720]  I think I am.
[35:57.340 --> 35:57.660]  Right.
[35:57.900 --> 35:58.140]  Yeah.
[35:58.240 --> 35:59.280]  You guys aren't going to agree with me.
[35:59.840 --> 36:03.540]  So we had this new story that we didn't use on the air, uh, a few weeks ago.
[36:03.700 --> 36:05.980]  And I, I knew, I, I thought you were going to use it.
[36:06.080 --> 36:13.600]  So I prepared a rebuttal, a defense of modernity, um, which I, which I can, I don't have it in front of me cause it was a couple of weeks ago.
[36:13.660 --> 36:14.740]  Oh, wait, you mean, hold on.
[36:14.800 --> 36:15.260]  I might have that.
[36:15.320 --> 36:16.380]  The end of the hangup, that one?
[36:16.580 --> 36:16.900]  Yeah, that one.
[36:16.980 --> 36:17.160]  Okay.
[36:17.380 --> 36:18.580]  You want to, you want the story?
[36:18.660 --> 36:22.680]  I want to give you all the time you need to, to go through this story.
[36:22.680 --> 36:29.440]  All it was, all it was, was simply, uh, reminiscing about landlines and old fashioned telephones.
[36:29.560 --> 36:32.200]  It's something that I still think are, are, are really good to have.
[36:32.200 --> 36:38.640]  And I can't imagine, see, this is, this is part of my gripe is that people feel they have to dismiss things from the past to embrace the future.
[36:38.860 --> 36:40.840]  And I think you can combine the two things.
[36:40.860 --> 36:45.740]  I think that, uh, you know, if we had the sound quality of landlines on cell phones, wow, that'd be great.
[36:45.920 --> 36:54.480]  Uh, if we had the, uh, just the, uh, robustness of, um, of a wired system as opposed to a wireless system, uh, that'd be great too.
[36:54.600 --> 36:59.260]  Or just basically having one to back up the other when, when one fails, because things do happen.
[36:59.260 --> 37:03.900]  But this particular article, uh, it was, uh, published in the Atlantic, uh, a couple of weeks ago.
[37:04.160 --> 37:05.640]  I'll just read an excerpt of it.
[37:05.860 --> 37:08.840]  Um, it basically has to do with the romance of, of the phone.
[37:08.980 --> 37:14.720]  My father took great pride in hanging up our model 554 phone violently when something went awry.
[37:14.900 --> 37:20.140]  Uh, an inbound wrong number dialed twice in a row, an unwelcome solicitor clang.
[37:20.240 --> 37:29.240]  The handset's solid mass crashed down on the hook, the bell assembly whimpering from the impact, the mechanical nature of telephones made hangups a material effect.
[37:29.260 --> 37:30.860]  Fair as much as a social one.
[37:31.380 --> 37:33.720]  And, uh, and the person on the other end would feel it.
[37:33.820 --> 37:35.620]  They'd feel your, your wrath, your anger.
[37:36.000 --> 37:39.100]  And I just wonder if our kids today, are they able to do that?
[37:39.200 --> 37:43.660]  Are they able to slam down a phone and say, you know, go to hell or whatever to the person on the other end?
[37:43.740 --> 37:45.060]  It's a way of expressing yourself.
[37:45.280 --> 37:47.100]  Uh, it's a way of releasing some anxiety.
[37:47.100 --> 37:50.520]  And if you did that with a cell phone, you'd wind up breaking it, you know?
[37:52.300 --> 37:54.460]  Bernie, Bernie, you've, you've hung up some phones in your time, right?
[37:54.460 --> 37:54.580]  Oh, yeah.
[37:54.740 --> 37:56.540]  And in fact, there was an art to hanging up the phone.
[37:56.700 --> 38:04.980]  If you really wanted the other person to hear that you hung up, instead of just hearing a click, you could, you could, you could slam the handset down just a little bit off the hook switch.
[38:05.020 --> 38:08.020]  It would hit those little things poking up around the hook switch.
[38:08.020 --> 38:13.200]  So they'd hear the full audio effect of the slam before it depressed the hook switch.
[38:13.360 --> 38:13.860]  You ever do that?
[38:14.480 --> 38:16.440]  Uh, no, that's, that's advanced.
[38:16.960 --> 38:17.360]  That's...
[38:17.360 --> 38:19.840]  They would, they would really hear the slam down that way.
[38:20.040 --> 38:25.820]  Because if you got it, if you, if you slammed it right down out of the hook switch, they would just hear the click before the slamming and ringing noise.
[38:25.820 --> 38:26.780]  Here's the thing, okay?
[38:27.000 --> 38:28.820]  Uh, the technology was solid.
[38:28.980 --> 38:30.800]  And that's why these phones are still around today.
[38:31.480 --> 38:32.900]  And that's another thing I don't like.
[38:32.980 --> 38:33.640]  I don't like waste.
[38:33.840 --> 38:37.920]  And so many people I know have, who have iPhones, for instance, I've gone through four or five of them.
[38:38.160 --> 38:39.340]  Where are all the other ones?
[38:39.400 --> 38:41.100]  In a landfill someplace, probably.
[38:41.340 --> 38:47.320]  I still have telephones from the 1940s and 50s that have been passed down to me and they still work and they sound better.
[38:47.600 --> 38:49.840]  Uh, so I just think that's something to, uh, to consider.
[38:49.920 --> 38:52.300]  Why don't we make technology that lasts anymore?
[38:52.740 --> 38:56.240]  Uh, and, and hang up the phone with a violent action.
[38:56.340 --> 38:56.820]  Let me continue here.
[38:57.220 --> 39:03.920]  Uh, hang up on someone as a physical act, a violent one, even, uh, one that produces its own pleasure by discharging acrimony.
[39:04.360 --> 39:09.460]  And, uh, it's not just try to hang up your iPhone or your Samsung galaxy.
[39:09.660 --> 39:21.880]  I don't mean just ending a call, but hanging up for real as if you meant it, uh, for a moment, you might consider throwing the handset against a wall before remembering that you, uh, shelled out three, four or $500 for the device, uh, and the thing that you,
[39:21.940 --> 39:26.500]  uh, cradle in a, in a, uh, cozy as if it were a kitten or a newborn.
[39:26.900 --> 39:28.320]  Uh, and that's another thing.
[39:28.440 --> 39:39.280]  People spend so much on these devices and, uh, you know, it's, they do without in so many other ways, but, um, but their phones, they just, um, they're so fragile.
[39:39.400 --> 39:40.520]  Look, here's, here's my phone.
[39:40.740 --> 39:41.800]  Mike, how would you describe my phone?
[39:44.020 --> 39:45.420]  Um, in, in what way?
[39:45.420 --> 39:46.780]  Well, I mean, it's my cell phone.
[39:46.880 --> 39:48.860]  It's the cell phone I've carried with me for a number of years now.
[39:48.960 --> 39:51.620]  It's a, it's a sort of early smartphone, which isn't very smart.
[39:51.700 --> 39:54.920]  It's a Nokia, it's a, it's a, it's a candy bar, candy bar style.
[39:55.160 --> 39:57.780]  It's S60, I think, for people who are into that.
[39:57.880 --> 39:58.060]  Uh-huh.
[39:58.140 --> 39:59.680]  Or maybe S40, S something.
[39:59.880 --> 40:01.100]  It's, it does what I need.
[40:02.560 --> 40:03.460]  What did I just do?
[40:03.520 --> 40:04.040]  Oh my God.
[40:04.340 --> 40:04.920]  Did you hear me?
[40:05.020 --> 40:06.420]  I dropped the phone on the floor.
[40:06.540 --> 40:07.960]  It bounced all the way to the other side of the room.
[40:08.400 --> 40:09.800]  But this carpeted floor.
[40:10.020 --> 40:10.320]  All right.
[40:10.680 --> 40:13.140]  Take your smartphone right there and do the same thing to it.
[40:13.160 --> 40:15.300]  My phone is already cracked, if that's the point you're trying to make.
[40:15.300 --> 40:16.560]  Take your phone and do the same thing.
[40:16.560 --> 40:17.100]  Will you do it?
[40:17.240 --> 40:19.340]  My phone, I told you, my phone is already cracked.
[40:19.340 --> 40:21.820]  Let the record show that Mike will not drop his phone on the floor.
[40:22.140 --> 40:22.480]  All right?
[40:22.560 --> 40:23.500]  This is my point.
[40:23.700 --> 40:24.120]  I'll drop Mike's phone on the floor.
[40:24.120 --> 40:25.280]  Rob, how about you?
[40:25.420 --> 40:26.100]  You're a smartphone.
[40:26.300 --> 40:27.780]  Yeah, I'd be happy to drop Mike's phone on the floor.
[40:27.780 --> 40:28.760]  No, how about your phone?
[40:30.040 --> 40:31.560]  But, no, but I promise...
[40:31.560 --> 40:32.520]  The reluctance here.
[40:32.620 --> 40:35.880]  I promise to listen to your argument and, and, and let you have your say.
[40:36.120 --> 40:36.400]  All right.
[40:36.520 --> 40:38.120]  Well, I'm, I'm just making a point.
[40:38.220 --> 40:39.400]  I have to remember to pick up my phone later.
[40:39.480 --> 40:41.920]  But, you know, the thing, my point is, my phone is not broken.
[40:42.100 --> 40:43.480]  You drop your phone, it probably will break.
[40:43.560 --> 40:45.180]  In fact, I saw a poor girl on the subway today.
[40:45.180 --> 40:49.120]  Drop her, her, her phone, and it broke on the, on the, on the platform.
[40:49.560 --> 40:50.600]  Oh, the language.
[40:51.120 --> 40:51.560]  Unbelievable.
[40:51.880 --> 40:57.380]  But why do we, why do we have these massively expensive items that we really can do without?
[40:57.560 --> 41:02.880]  They're fun toys, but they also are, are kind of, um, uh, enslaving us.
[41:03.140 --> 41:10.460]  I mean, we can't have conversations anymore where we ask a question because somebody is going to go to Wikipedia on their phone and, and find out the definitive answer.
[41:10.540 --> 41:17.800]  So you can't really have a discussion and argument, uh, without somebody, uh, being a wise guy and, and, and showing you all these facts that then you have to dispute.
[41:18.020 --> 41:23.340]  And if, if there's a song playing, you can't think about what the song is because somebody has got an app to hold up to immediately identify the song.
[41:23.520 --> 41:28.960]  You can't get lost when you drive anymore, which some people might think is a good thing, but, you know, sometimes it's good to explore.
[41:29.900 --> 41:33.320]  I just think we're losing a lot of our humanity with, with, uh, with this technology.
[41:33.480 --> 41:34.780]  I, you know, again, I love the technology.
[41:34.780 --> 41:35.580]  I love to play with it.
[41:35.800 --> 41:39.200]  I just think people get, um, get so drawn into it.
[41:39.260 --> 41:39.920]  There's this picture.
[41:40.340 --> 41:48.600]  There's this picture that's floating around on the internet, uh, having to do with, um, uh, crowds of people in Rome waiting to hear who the new Pope is going to be.
[41:48.760 --> 41:53.360]  There's a picture of people doing this in 2005 and a picture of people doing this in 2013.
[41:53.360 --> 41:59.260]  Now, if you look at 2005, you see a bunch of people standing in a crowd, uh, and you see one, one person holding up a phone.
[41:59.980 --> 42:08.520]  2013, you see nothing but phones, nothing but little screens being held up by everybody recording the event and missing out on it in real life.
[42:09.020 --> 42:10.020]  Uh, there was an incident.
[42:10.140 --> 42:17.440]  I talked about this on the other show, uh, during the, um, inauguration parade this year when, when someone let Joe Biden off his leash and he went charging through the crowd.
[42:17.580 --> 42:18.120]  Remember that?
[42:18.320 --> 42:28.120]  And he went tearing towards these kids that were standing on the sideline and, uh, they all were just basically filming it on their phones rather than seeing it with their own eyes.
[42:28.300 --> 42:33.340]  I mean, having, having a guy like that charge at you is something that will be ingrained in your mind for a long, long time.
[42:33.480 --> 42:36.620]  But I guess they felt it was more important to put it on YouTube and to actually experience it.
[42:36.920 --> 42:37.800]  This is what I mean.
[42:37.940 --> 42:39.280]  You know, yeah, it's a tool.
[42:39.880 --> 42:44.580]  The smartphones are tools, but a crutch is also a tool and we don't, we don't choose to use a crutch.
[42:44.920 --> 42:45.220]  All right.
[42:45.300 --> 42:46.340]  So that's my point.
[42:46.480 --> 42:50.640]  I think, I think Mike wants to, uh, wants to tear my argument apart, but if you want to say something first, Bernie, quickly.
[42:52.160 --> 42:52.480]  Emmanuel?
[42:52.840 --> 42:53.220]  Yes, please.
[42:53.420 --> 42:57.080]  I just want to say, have you played this game with yourself or you're like, it's a complicated arrangement.
[42:57.240 --> 43:06.600]  You're going to meet people at a certain time or a place and there's a lot of people involved and, um, things are a little unclear and we all managed to do this before cell phones.
[43:06.800 --> 43:08.640]  We're carrying them around in our pockets all the time.
[43:08.760 --> 43:08.860]  Right.
[43:08.980 --> 43:16.980]  I remember when I got a beeper and that was a big deal because someone could beep me while I was driving and then I'd pull into a pay phone and call the person back and ask what they wanted.
[43:17.300 --> 43:22.380]  And that was a, that was a change from before the times of beepers when you just met people when you said you were going to meet them.
[43:22.500 --> 43:25.460]  And then of course, uh, cell phones and, and texting.
[43:25.700 --> 43:30.380]  And the funny thing is everyone calls them phones, but so few people actually use them as phones.
[43:30.560 --> 43:34.960]  They use them as all kinds of other devices and it's like they never are able to get away from the office.
[43:35.240 --> 43:40.720]  I remember one of the early advertisements from one of the companies, uh, was imagine getting a fax on the beach.
[43:41.160 --> 43:45.560]  And back then I was asking myself, why would I want to get a fax on the beach?
[43:45.680 --> 43:51.640]  Why would I want to be able to answer email, uh, when I'm away from the place that I'm supposed to be answering email?
[43:51.980 --> 43:56.860]  It just seems like, uh, you know, you're kind of getting roped into something and you're going voluntarily.
[43:57.080 --> 43:58.780]  Didn't it require more creative thought though?
[43:58.880 --> 44:00.060]  You had to plan ahead.
[44:00.200 --> 44:07.520]  Like if you're going ahead to all be there at a certain place or time, or if you were at a place you knew it's possible you were going to get separated from people.
[44:07.780 --> 44:07.960]  Right.
[44:08.100 --> 44:09.480]  You had to make arrangements ahead of time.
[44:09.600 --> 44:15.600]  It's like, all right, if we get separated, we'll meet at this place at half past the hour or something like that.
[44:15.720 --> 44:15.860]  Yeah.
[44:16.020 --> 44:22.800]  And it was, but required a lot of more thinking, which I think our brains are probably atrophying as a result of not doing that.
[44:22.800 --> 44:28.200]  When you actually got together with the people, you probably talked to them as well instead of, instead of, uh, four squaring and tweeting.
[44:28.700 --> 44:29.020]  All right.
[44:29.040 --> 44:32.460]  Now I'm going to let Mike have his, uh, have his say while I go find my phone and see if it's broken.
[44:32.640 --> 44:34.040]  First of all, you don't like the beach.
[44:34.720 --> 44:35.380]  That's not true.
[44:36.060 --> 44:36.680]  Um, but...
[44:36.680 --> 44:37.600]  I just don't like to sit on the beach.
[44:37.960 --> 44:38.280]  Okay.
[44:39.240 --> 44:47.360]  Um, and especially, so I don't think the faxes would really affect your experience, but, uh, but the, the fact of the matter is that I have, um, it's on the table.
[44:47.540 --> 44:51.220]  It's sometimes in my pocket, this, uh, this computer and it cost me about $300.
[44:51.860 --> 44:52.020]  Yeah.
[44:52.080 --> 44:52.300]  Yeah.
[44:52.320 --> 44:53.340]  You're, you're, you're pointing to your phone.
[44:53.440 --> 44:53.520]  Yeah.
[44:53.620 --> 44:54.320]  But you call the computer.
[44:54.420 --> 44:55.320]  And my phone, by the way, it's fine.
[44:55.500 --> 44:55.820]  Here it is.
[44:55.960 --> 44:56.060]  Good.
[44:56.400 --> 44:57.200]  I just dropped it on the table.
[44:57.400 --> 45:08.900]  So I have this computer or phone, whatever it is, uh, it costs me about $300 and I pay, um, about $30 a month, uh, exactly, actually exactly $30 a month for service on this computer.
[45:09.060 --> 45:10.520]  And may I say, I do like that part.
[45:10.660 --> 45:14.920]  You have a very good plan and that's something you should share with people is your plan because I think you're doing that the right way.
[45:15.040 --> 45:15.160]  Yeah.
[45:15.260 --> 45:16.340]  I mean, anyone can get it.
[45:16.460 --> 45:33.720]  Um, and so what I, what I get for my $30 is I get to make a hundred minutes of phone calls and I get, uh, five gigabytes of, of data, which is enough to download, you know, the whole works of Shakespeare a thousand times or, uh, to get a whole, uh, week's worth of audio.
[45:33.720 --> 45:35.800]  And, and I don't mean like nine to five for a week.
[45:35.900 --> 45:37.200]  I mean like 160 hours.
[45:37.380 --> 45:38.480]  Do you read Shakespeare on your phone, Mike?
[45:38.620 --> 45:39.060]  I could.
[45:39.220 --> 45:40.020]  But you don't.
[45:40.300 --> 45:41.220]  That's my point.
[45:41.320 --> 45:41.700]  No one does.
[45:41.720 --> 45:43.020]  I don't read it in a book either.
[45:43.240 --> 45:45.800]  So it's hardly my phone's fault.
[45:45.920 --> 45:46.360]  Please continue.
[45:46.520 --> 45:48.820]  I downloaded, uh, the complete works of Shakespeare.
[45:49.020 --> 45:51.780]  It's now sitting on my computer when I, when I was doing research for this.
[45:52.260 --> 45:54.280]  Um, and so now I have it.
[45:54.360 --> 45:55.200]  So now I could read it.
[45:55.440 --> 46:15.560]  Um, but so, so for this $30 and I can access the complete work, you know, the complete sum basically of human knowledge, some of it I would have to pay for, but basically anything I want to know, I can know it, uh, you know, in, in a minute and anywhere I am.
[46:15.640 --> 46:16.740]  But it's not coming from your own brain.
[46:16.920 --> 46:18.180]  It's coming from some other place.
[46:18.180 --> 46:21.460]  It's like, you know, you're putting your brain on hold because you always have this device.
[46:21.800 --> 46:22.380]  I'm not that bright.
[46:22.880 --> 46:23.600]  Well, all right.
[46:23.660 --> 46:24.540]  We can argue that later.
[46:24.640 --> 46:36.140]  Um, so, so that's, that's, that's deal A and you know, there are trade-offs, but so deal B, uh, the, the, the landlines that people are, are fetishizing.
[46:36.400 --> 46:37.700]  Um, I went on...
[46:37.700 --> 46:38.220]  Fetishizing?
[46:38.400 --> 46:38.580]  Really?
[46:39.060 --> 46:39.460]  Okay.
[46:39.660 --> 46:39.980]  No, go ahead.
[46:39.980 --> 46:51.020]  I went on the website of the local, uh, incumbent local exchange carrier, um, to find out what it costs to get a landline in New York City where I live in 2013.
[46:51.420 --> 46:51.600]  Yeah.
[46:51.740 --> 46:51.860]  Okay.
[46:51.940 --> 46:53.240]  Verizon is one of the dinosaurs.
[46:53.660 --> 46:57.320]  They still have calling plans for like Eastern Suffolk and Western Suffolk.
[46:57.880 --> 46:59.100]  Uh, it's, it's really, yeah.
[46:59.280 --> 47:01.080]  The cheapest plan is $25.
[47:01.340 --> 47:02.100]  I don't defend them.
[47:02.300 --> 47:08.120]  It's $25 and, uh, you know, $25 is, is a great deal compared to how it used to be.
[47:08.120 --> 47:11.460]  Um, you know, adjusted for inflation and, and whatnot.
[47:11.640 --> 47:17.360]  But for those $25, I get, uh, a grand total of 15 minutes of talk time.
[47:17.740 --> 47:21.660]  If I want, and I get, uh, zero, uh, bytes of data.
[47:22.140 --> 47:31.900]  And, uh, if I want to make additional long distance calls, whatever long distance is, I don't know, uh, that, that costs 40 cents a minute.
[47:32.600 --> 47:34.780]  Um, 40 cents a minute?
[47:34.880 --> 47:35.280]  40 cents a minute.
[47:35.480 --> 47:37.340]  So, so that's like a, that's a ripoff, whatever.
[47:37.340 --> 47:39.040]  So if you pay three more dollars a month.
[47:39.080 --> 47:39.200]  Okay.
[47:39.200 --> 47:43.080]  But you're talking about the business, not the technology, the business end of it, which I agree is stupid.
[47:43.300 --> 47:57.640]  Uh, so if I pay three more dollars a month, then I get the, the, the, this more sensible plan, which costs $6 a minute for national long distance, but it costs nine cents a minute for, remember this, uh, I don't, but there was this thing, uh, intrastate interlata.
[47:57.740 --> 47:58.080]  Oh yeah.
[47:58.240 --> 48:00.580]  That costs three cents more to call Albany.
[48:00.820 --> 48:05.520]  I'm not that I've ever, I think called Albany, but if I wanted to, it costs three cents more than to call California.
[48:05.520 --> 48:05.860]  Yeah.
[48:05.940 --> 48:06.500]  No, that's stupid.
[48:06.600 --> 48:07.420]  That's, that's antiquated.
[48:07.480 --> 48:10.200]  And it costs 11 cents for this and nine cents for that.
[48:10.320 --> 48:14.180]  And you know, it costs $8 a month extra for a call waiting in 2013.
[48:14.940 --> 48:21.980]  Well, I mean, I was one of the, uh, people against the whole touchstone fee for many, many years and they finally got rid of the touchstone fee to their credit.
[48:22.360 --> 48:33.980]  Um, and so it's just, it's not surprising that most people are choosing the technology that is basically the same cost that does way more that follows you around.
[48:33.980 --> 48:39.000]  You don't ever have to, uh, you know, so this is a thing that, that people do.
[48:39.140 --> 48:42.780]  They call and the person they don't want to talk to is not the one who answers the phone.
[48:42.940 --> 48:44.240]  This is not a thing that happens anymore.
[48:44.440 --> 48:45.600]  You, you now can call people.
[48:45.740 --> 48:48.440]  You can get in touch with people instead of locations.
[48:48.740 --> 48:49.140]  This is...
[48:49.140 --> 48:50.620]  Yeah, but then why are we talking to people less?
[48:50.760 --> 48:51.640]  That's, that's what I don't get.
[48:51.820 --> 48:54.920]  I, I, I spend less time on the phone now that everyone has cell phones.
[48:54.920 --> 49:03.220]  I did when people had landlines and, uh, I'll get a text from somebody instead of a phone call, which takes a lot longer to go back and forth to convey a message.
[49:03.700 --> 49:10.860]  And I guess the, the cell phone companies make some money off that too, cause you wind up paying per text after a certain amount and it's a lot more than, than paying for a phone call.
[49:10.860 --> 49:12.780]  My $30 includes unlimited texting.
[49:12.880 --> 49:13.400]  Well, good for you.
[49:13.520 --> 49:15.120]  But, um, I don't know.
[49:15.220 --> 49:18.460]  I, I, I think there, there could be a good combination of, uh, of old and new.
[49:18.860 --> 49:23.260]  People are choosing the service that makes the most sense for them and the new technology is winning.
[49:23.940 --> 49:24.380]  All right.
[49:24.420 --> 49:27.180]  Well, uh, let's open up to the, to, uh, the listeners.
[49:27.460 --> 49:34.480]  If, uh, you want to call in and be a part of this discussion in the, uh, five or so minutes we have left 2 1 2 6 5 0 5 7 8 2.
[49:34.920 --> 49:40.960]  Uh, we'd like to, uh, to hear your thoughts and, and, and, and feelings or, um, anything along those lines.
[49:41.120 --> 49:45.660]  You know, the, um, the phone company building out by me in Long Island, I just passed by it.
[49:45.720 --> 49:54.880]  It was, it was where the operators were, uh, and directory assistants, the what now, you know, the old, the 4 1 1 and zero gutted completely.
[49:54.880 --> 49:56.080]  I just drove by it.
[49:56.200 --> 49:57.900]  And the thing, this is in Port Jefferson.
[49:58.100 --> 49:59.260]  It's just gone.
[49:59.460 --> 50:01.640]  They, they, they imploded it or something.
[50:01.880 --> 50:09.480]  And then around the corner, it was the, um, uh, the equipment building where all the telephone repair trucks went and that's abandoned, gone.
[50:10.000 --> 50:12.120]  It's like they left town in the middle of the night.
[50:12.720 --> 50:16.260]  So, uh, and that these, these phone company buildings have been there forever.
[50:16.720 --> 50:17.820]  You know, these are, these are buildings.
[50:17.900 --> 50:24.020]  It's not the central office, not where the switching takes place, but these are our call centers and equipment centers and things like that.
[50:24.140 --> 50:27.180]  So yeah, there are massive changes and I'm not saying massive change is bad.
[50:27.460 --> 50:28.540]  In fact, it's overdue.
[50:28.800 --> 50:31.020]  Uh, I just always question where we're going.
[50:31.500 --> 50:32.020]  Uh, okay.
[50:32.120 --> 50:33.340]  Let's, uh, take a phone call.
[50:33.600 --> 50:34.040]  Good evening.
[50:34.220 --> 50:35.240]  You're on off the hook.
[50:35.700 --> 50:36.220]  Oh, hi.
[50:36.320 --> 50:36.560]  Yes.
[50:36.660 --> 50:37.620]  Just a trivial point.
[50:37.740 --> 50:39.000]  Maybe you resolved this already.
[50:39.280 --> 50:44.520]  Uh, I had to tune away for a while and do something else and come back, uh, on the pronunciation of re-digy.
[50:45.160 --> 50:45.780]  Oh, okay.
[50:45.780 --> 50:46.780]  You pronounced it re-digy.
[50:46.780 --> 50:47.000]  Okay.
[50:47.200 --> 50:53.860]  I'll tell you what, the only reason I'm doing that is, uh, uh, Amy Goodman reported this, I think yesterday and she pronounced it re-digy.
[50:53.980 --> 50:55.160]  Now, I don't know whether she...
[50:55.160 --> 50:56.160]  No, that's good enough for me.
[50:56.160 --> 50:57.660]  Yeah, I think so too.
[50:57.880 --> 51:02.440]  Because I think what it is, is it's just, uh, re-digitize, you know?
[51:02.660 --> 51:05.200]  And so re-digy is kind of short for re-digitize.
[51:05.400 --> 51:05.820]  All right.
[51:06.020 --> 51:06.240]  All right.
[51:06.280 --> 51:06.460]  We're going to...
[51:06.460 --> 51:07.640]  You're going to rise with Bemidji.
[51:07.800 --> 51:08.960]  You know, Bemidji, Wisconsin.
[51:11.020 --> 51:12.380]  We're going to take that as gospel.
[51:12.520 --> 51:14.180]  Bernie, are you going to say re-digy now?
[51:14.180 --> 51:14.900]  Yeah, good to me.
[51:15.020 --> 51:15.360]  All right.
[51:15.460 --> 51:16.060]  Is that Wisconsin?
[51:16.760 --> 51:17.640]  Isn't it Minnesota?
[51:18.040 --> 51:19.820]  People in the Midwest can send us an email.
[51:20.220 --> 51:20.460]  Yes.
[51:20.820 --> 51:21.200]  Is it an Indian name?
[51:21.340 --> 51:21.980]  American Indian?
[51:22.260 --> 51:24.580]  Uh, well, we can debate that and ask our listeners again.
[51:24.580 --> 51:28.060]  O-T-H at 2600.com is our email address.
[51:28.160 --> 51:30.620]  So please write to us with facts and figures and things like that.
[51:30.720 --> 51:35.600]  Bernie, before the next call comes in and makes noise on the line, anything you wanted to add?
[51:35.940 --> 51:36.680]  About re-digy?
[51:36.820 --> 51:37.620]  Or anything else?
[51:37.980 --> 51:38.840]  Um, no.
[51:38.880 --> 51:39.920]  I think we covered a lot tonight.
[51:39.960 --> 51:40.580]  It was a good show.
[51:40.860 --> 51:41.780]  Yeah, well, it's still going on.
[51:41.840 --> 51:42.720]  We still have nine minutes left.
[51:43.040 --> 51:45.460]  Our listeners can make it even better by calling in.
[51:45.460 --> 51:48.160]  2-1-2-6-5-0-5-7-8-2.
[51:48.260 --> 51:56.800]  I want to thank everybody who called in over the past few weeks for the Emergency Transmitter Fund, which I believe we have met, and I think the station is in much better shape than it has been in quite some time.
[51:56.980 --> 51:59.760]  If you think it's not in good enough shape, you can still give money.
[51:59.900 --> 52:00.540]  That's right, you can.
[52:01.220 --> 52:02.180]  How do they do that, Mike?
[52:02.560 --> 52:09.740]  They can call, I think, still 516-620-3602, or they can go on WBAI.org, or they can mail us a check.
[52:09.900 --> 52:11.660]  And Bernie is really good at saying the address.
[52:12.260 --> 52:12.480]  Okay.
[52:12.600 --> 52:14.400]  Bernie, quickly, because there's a phone call coming in.
[52:14.400 --> 52:18.080]  I don't have the address at my fingertips, but I'll have it before the end of the show.
[52:18.100 --> 52:19.060]  Okay, there's that noise.
[52:19.060 --> 52:20.160]  That means the call's coming in.
[52:20.320 --> 52:21.000]  And good evening.
[52:21.000 --> 52:22.000]  You're on Off The Hook.
[52:23.200 --> 52:23.720]  Yes, hello.
[52:24.040 --> 52:24.840]  Hi, speak up, please.
[52:26.280 --> 52:27.780]  Yeah, I just had a statement.
[52:28.120 --> 52:28.500]  Go ahead.
[52:29.580 --> 52:36.260]  Well, basically, as far as the phone companies are concerned, we as the consumers are not really doing anything about it.
[52:36.360 --> 52:39.100]  We're pretty much accepting any and every change that comes about.
[52:39.100 --> 52:44.260]  So I think we play a part as well, the negative aspect of it.
[52:44.400 --> 52:44.680]  Okay.
[52:45.280 --> 52:47.120]  Well, how negative?
[52:47.260 --> 52:47.620]  In what way?
[52:48.220 --> 52:56.700]  Well, for instance, every time a new phone comes out, the price is astronomical, bigger than the next one.
[52:56.820 --> 52:58.080]  I mean, the one before it.
[52:58.320 --> 53:02.740]  And people still go out and pay the exuberant amount of money for it.
[53:02.740 --> 53:03.260]  Yeah, that's the thing.
[53:03.340 --> 53:04.740]  It's like the new Nike, you know?
[53:04.920 --> 53:11.120]  Everyone, people I know who can't pay the rent, they always have the newest, most technologically advanced phone.
[53:11.460 --> 53:12.220]  That is so true.
[53:12.280 --> 53:20.900]  And I don't think people should do without, but I do question that we accept that something has to cost that amount, whereas other things don't.
[53:21.500 --> 53:22.340]  That's my point, yeah.
[53:22.520 --> 53:22.640]  Yeah.
[53:23.500 --> 53:23.900]  All right.
[53:23.960 --> 53:25.080]  Thanks for that call.
[53:25.120 --> 53:26.480]  And let's see if we have room for others.
[53:26.640 --> 53:29.540]  We only have one incoming line right now, so that's why there's a bit of a pause.
[53:29.660 --> 53:32.000]  But the number is 212-650-5782.
[53:32.000 --> 53:34.660]  The day will come again when we have multiple lines.
[53:34.840 --> 53:36.260]  I'd like to issue a challenge to you guys.
[53:36.560 --> 53:37.720]  We're going to hang out after the show.
[53:38.400 --> 53:41.240]  How do you guys feel about putting these things away?
[53:41.240 --> 53:47.460]  If we get an incoming call or an incoming text, okay, we can look at it, but no outgoing or no staring at it while we're supposed to be talking to each other.
[53:48.000 --> 53:50.820]  You know, this puts the pressure on you to be engaging.
[53:51.520 --> 53:52.560]  Well, I can try.
[53:52.840 --> 53:55.180]  I'm willing to try something new, you know?
[53:55.320 --> 54:02.900]  So the rule is that we keep the phones away, and only if they make noise or they vibrate and we're alerted to them can we pick them up.
[54:02.960 --> 54:08.200]  And if that happens too many times, and it can't be by one of us doing it, but if it happens too many times, that's going to be the merit, too.
[54:08.500 --> 54:09.980]  You don't have to accept this deal.
[54:10.760 --> 54:12.040]  What do we get out of it?
[54:12.040 --> 54:14.480]  Well, next week we can talk about how we did.
[54:14.660 --> 54:20.020]  It's a challenge to see if we can get through a night without being enslaved to our phones like I'm talking about anyway.
[54:21.860 --> 54:23.220]  Long silence, long pause.
[54:23.340 --> 54:24.640]  Bernie, would you have trouble doing this?
[54:25.300 --> 54:26.080]  I could do it.
[54:26.160 --> 54:27.720]  I've turned off my phone at times.
[54:27.840 --> 54:28.600]  I didn't say turn it off.
[54:28.680 --> 54:30.460]  I did not say turn it off, although maybe I should.
[54:30.720 --> 54:31.840]  I said just put it away.
[54:31.960 --> 54:33.300]  It's not being waved in front.
[54:33.420 --> 54:34.820]  It's not part of the conversation.
[54:35.480 --> 54:37.540]  If someone tries to reach you, fine.
[54:37.540 --> 54:42.220]  If it's an emergency or something like that or somebody we're trying to meet, but I think all the people we're going to meet will be with us.
[54:42.640 --> 54:43.720]  Well, think about it.
[54:43.800 --> 54:45.420]  We'll see how it goes next week.
[54:45.680 --> 54:46.000]  Good evening.
[54:46.120 --> 54:46.620]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:47.240 --> 54:47.820]  Oh, dear.
[54:49.260 --> 54:49.940]  That's the other thing.
[54:50.060 --> 54:51.880]  You know, that's an actual dial tone.
[54:52.000 --> 54:52.960]  You don't get those anymore.
[54:53.140 --> 54:53.740]  It's a PBX.
[54:53.920 --> 54:54.760]  I know, I know.
[54:54.860 --> 54:56.260]  It's not a real, real dial tone.
[54:56.320 --> 54:56.580]  Good evening.
[54:56.660 --> 54:57.200]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:57.200 --> 54:57.840]  Yeah.
[54:58.100 --> 55:04.740]  What's the name of the service that he claimed was pretty low-key?
[55:05.800 --> 55:07.000]  What, Mike's service?
[55:07.200 --> 55:07.420]  Yeah.
[55:07.880 --> 55:09.060]  20 or 30...
[55:09.060 --> 55:09.860]  Okay, go ahead.
[55:09.900 --> 55:10.300]  Tell us, Mike.
[55:10.400 --> 55:11.220]  I'm sure this will be popular.
[55:11.220 --> 55:13.180]  I'm a customer of a company called T-Mobile.
[55:13.620 --> 55:14.400]  T-Mobile.
[55:14.600 --> 55:15.840]  And so they're weird.
[55:15.860 --> 55:18.820]  You have to sign up for their thing online or at Walmart.
[55:18.840 --> 55:20.960]  They won't sell it to you in their own stores.
[55:21.680 --> 55:22.220]  It's bizarre.
[55:22.220 --> 55:23.740]  You have to go to Walmart to get this plan?
[55:23.740 --> 55:24.800]  Or the internet.
[55:25.140 --> 55:28.700]  And their internet was broken, and I called them, and they were like, go to Walmart.
[55:28.700 --> 55:31.180]  And I was like, I don't know, Walmart, what is that?
[55:31.340 --> 55:32.900]  I'm not going there if I find out.
[55:33.040 --> 55:36.640]  Yeah, I mean, if they actually succeed in getting you to go to a Walmart, that's a real feather in their cap.
[55:36.640 --> 55:37.640]  But you can get it on the internet.
[55:38.660 --> 55:39.380]  All right, great.
[55:40.320 --> 55:40.860]  Thanks a lot.
[55:41.300 --> 55:42.620]  All right, thanks for that call.
[55:42.660 --> 55:44.640]  And there are competitors that are similarly priced.
[55:44.760 --> 55:47.060]  Some of the resellers, I don't have a list in front of me.
[55:47.060 --> 55:50.440]  But the idea is to... This isn't a prepaid plan, right?
[55:51.000 --> 55:51.900]  It is prepaid.
[55:51.960 --> 55:52.340]  It is prepaid.
[55:52.420 --> 55:52.580]  Okay.
[55:53.120 --> 55:54.900]  Is that the secret to paying that little?
[55:55.140 --> 55:57.660]  Because people pay hundreds of dollars a month for phone service.
[55:57.860 --> 56:05.780]  So the thing is, you have to purchase, you have to pay full price for the device in advance, which is not something that everyone can do.
[56:05.920 --> 56:09.980]  Not everyone has the price of a mini computer sitting in their bank account.
[56:09.980 --> 56:11.240]  So that is sort of unfair.
[56:11.240 --> 56:16.000]  But if you can do that, then you can pay $30 or whatever a month.
[56:16.000 --> 56:18.460]  All right, 212-650-5782.
[56:18.460 --> 56:20.560]  I think we have time for one more phone call.
[56:21.040 --> 56:25.180]  If you have anything that you'd like to ask us or you want to weigh in on anything that we've been talking about tonight.
[56:25.320 --> 56:26.540]  Let's see who's on the line.
[56:26.620 --> 56:26.940]  Good evening.
[56:27.060 --> 56:27.780]  You're on Off The Hook.
[56:28.780 --> 56:29.880]  Real quick, Emmanuel.
[56:30.100 --> 56:32.340]  I'd like to agree with you about landline.
[56:32.460 --> 56:32.780]  Uh-huh.
[56:33.660 --> 56:35.720]  Because I hold on to my landline.
[56:35.720 --> 56:44.180]  I got, you know, I got a little throwback, T-Mobile, Samsung, and they wanted to upgrade me today.
[56:44.280 --> 56:49.040]  But I said, no, let me keep my old analog because you can't track you as much as a so-called smartphone.
[56:50.100 --> 56:50.440]  Uh-huh.
[56:50.600 --> 56:52.480]  No, that's, you're right there.
[56:52.560 --> 56:53.260]  They definitely can't.
[56:53.860 --> 56:59.500]  But I just want to agree with you about the landline because a lot of companies want you to have a landline, too, if you want to hire you.
[56:59.600 --> 57:01.740]  It doesn't sound like you're calling from a landline, though.
[57:01.740 --> 57:02.660]  No, not now.
[57:02.780 --> 57:04.300]  I'm calling on my T-Mobile celly.
[57:04.380 --> 57:04.600]  Uh-huh.
[57:04.660 --> 57:05.420]  I can tell the difference.
[57:05.580 --> 57:09.340]  I can tell the, you know, if people call from landlines, you would hear the difference on the radio, too.
[57:09.360 --> 57:10.160]  It just sounds better.
[57:10.640 --> 57:14.040]  Yeah, I have my landline with Tom Warner.
[57:14.600 --> 57:15.040]  Uh-huh.
[57:15.800 --> 57:19.640]  Okay, that's sort of not the true landline, but we can get into that some other time.
[57:19.780 --> 57:20.620]  That's through a cable coming.
[57:20.700 --> 57:25.160]  But thanks so much for your call, and thanks to everybody else who didn't make it through this week.
[57:25.260 --> 57:27.560]  And we'll talk to you again, hopefully, in future weeks.
[57:28.180 --> 57:31.140]  Our email address is othat2600.com.
[57:31.140 --> 57:33.480]  And Rob, I believe there are 2600 meetings this Friday, are there not?
[57:33.600 --> 57:34.100]  There are indeed.
[57:34.340 --> 57:37.980]  Go to www.2600.com slash meetings and find one near you.
[57:38.600 --> 57:39.000]  Okay.
[57:39.260 --> 57:43.740]  And they exist all throughout the world, and they always take place on the first Friday of the month.
[57:43.960 --> 57:45.760]  All right, that's going to do it for Off the Hook this week.
[57:45.980 --> 57:48.240]  Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show coming up next.
[57:48.660 --> 57:50.000]  We'll be back again next week.
[57:50.000 --> 57:50.300]  Good night.
[57:50.740 --> 57:53.800]  Went out today to try and phone you.
[57:54.160 --> 57:57.520]  I guess you didn't recognize my call.
[57:57.820 --> 58:02.040]  The lady on your end said you've got caller ID.
[58:02.600 --> 58:08.480]  But I'm feeling sorry that you've been woken up so much.
[58:09.040 --> 58:11.080]  And I'm feeling guilty.
[58:11.680 --> 58:12.840]  Just talk to me.
[58:13.060 --> 58:14.220]  Please talk to me.
[58:14.220 --> 58:16.580]  I hardly know you.
[58:17.200 --> 58:20.080]  Is it too late to even try?
[58:20.320 --> 58:21.920]  I want to know you.
[58:23.000 --> 58:25.320]  Another 20 cent goodbye.
[58:30.410 --> 58:33.710]  I found a pay phone and it's busted.
[58:34.150 --> 58:35.750]  Well, they're broken hearted.
[58:36.010 --> 58:38.970]  But still I pick up the receiver.
[58:39.270 --> 58:39.830]  I'm sorry.
[58:40.290 --> 58:41.470]  Touching someone's true.
[58:41.670 --> 58:43.330]  Please make this worth it.
[58:43.330 --> 58:46.770]  But you're all I'm thinking of today.
[58:47.710 --> 58:49.870]  I know you're worth it.
[58:50.210 --> 58:51.490]  Just talk to me.
[58:51.710 --> 58:52.930]  Please talk to me.
[58:53.370 --> 58:55.230]  I hardly know you.
[58:55.810 --> 58:58.870]  Is it too late to even try?
[58:59.110 --> 59:00.610]  I want to know you.
[59:01.470 --> 59:04.110]  Another 20 cent goodbye.
[59:08.620 --> 59:09.500]  Goodbye.
[59:12.200 --> 59:14.760]  Another 20 cent goodbye.
[59:27.440 --> 59:30.600]  Another 20 cent goodbye.