[00:00.000 --> 00:01.500]  Listener-sponsored, children.
[00:01.740 --> 00:03.240]  It's commercial-free.
[00:03.820 --> 00:06.380]  Ooh, changelooja.
[00:08.080 --> 00:14.340]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York, where the time is just about 7 o'clock.
[00:14.720 --> 00:18.120]  Time, once again, for Off the Hook.
[00:19.920 --> 00:24.460]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:25.340 --> 00:29.860]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:30.660 --> 00:32.740]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:33.460 --> 00:35.280]  But if they could, they would.
[00:35.560 --> 00:38.200]  One diddley-bomb, but the best is back the worst.
[00:38.900 --> 00:40.680]  I hope that's understood.
[00:40.900 --> 00:41.780]  One diddley-bomb!
[01:59.550 --> 02:01.130]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:01.250 --> 02:02.370]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:02.690 --> 02:07.790]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Rob T.
[02:07.990 --> 02:08.510]  Firefly.
[02:08.750 --> 02:09.170]  Good evening.
[02:09.430 --> 02:09.810]  Alex.
[02:10.250 --> 02:10.830]  Good evening.
[02:11.130 --> 02:12.370]  And Kyle from Washington.
[02:12.630 --> 02:13.050]  Hi there.
[02:13.550 --> 02:15.550]  And we also have our special guest for tonight.
[02:15.550 --> 02:18.490]  For our special two-hour fundraiser show, Steve Frombaum.
[02:18.610 --> 02:19.070]  Steve, welcome.
[02:19.510 --> 02:19.850]  Good evening.
[02:20.830 --> 02:24.590]  Well, don't we have a lot to talk about in these two hours?
[02:24.930 --> 02:30.970]  As far as, well, Steve, of course, I think you don't even need an introduction.
[02:30.970 --> 02:38.670]  But in case people don't know who you are, you're an infamous private investigator, expert on privacy issues.
[02:39.850 --> 02:42.390]  And a bit of a mischief maker at times, I think.
[02:43.010 --> 02:47.990]  And someone who always is willing to share what he knows with people.
[02:47.990 --> 02:50.910]  Well, you know, you have all the attributes of a true hacker.
[02:51.210 --> 02:52.170]  Well, in this venue anyway.
[02:52.430 --> 02:52.650]  Mm-hmm.
[02:53.450 --> 02:56.590]  And tonight you're going to be telling us, hopefully, some things that we need to know.
[02:56.770 --> 02:58.530]  And maybe some things we didn't know.
[02:59.010 --> 03:00.470]  And we're going to have some very interesting things.
[03:00.830 --> 03:05.110]  And announcing some pretty exciting joint programs.
[03:05.110 --> 03:06.290]  Yes, yes.
[03:06.950 --> 03:17.670]  And we'll also have some excerpts from conferences where you've given some very valuable bits of wisdom to people throughout the world.
[03:19.210 --> 03:20.630]  Information never disappears.
[03:20.990 --> 03:21.690]  No, it doesn't.
[03:21.770 --> 03:22.410]  It certainly doesn't.
[03:22.750 --> 03:26.470]  So let me just start the discussion with you guys.
[03:26.570 --> 03:29.110]  We haven't been on the air, actually, for three weeks.
[03:29.250 --> 03:31.690]  This is our first show since early May.
[03:32.550 --> 03:34.930]  And, well, a bunch of things have happened.
[03:36.750 --> 03:45.250]  And not the least of which is increased surveillance of reporters that we've heard about in the news.
[03:45.550 --> 03:52.950]  And that's something that affects us as hackers, as journalists, as basically people who are just interested in freedom of information.
[03:52.950 --> 03:55.110]  And we're going to be discussing that as well.
[03:55.530 --> 03:57.750]  But also, I mentioned this is a two-hour show.
[03:57.870 --> 03:58.650]  It is a two-hour program.
[03:58.650 --> 04:02.670]  We are here because we need to raise funds for the radio stations, our spring fundraiser.
[04:03.290 --> 04:12.810]  We haven't been on for the last three weeks because other shows have been pitching in our place and hopefully raising enough money to keep the place on the air so that we can continue talking about these sorts of things.
[04:12.810 --> 04:16.350]  So, we have some special items that we'll be getting into in just a little bit.
[04:16.830 --> 04:19.790]  Oh, you know, I neglected to mention Bernie from Philadelphia.
[04:19.970 --> 04:20.470]  Bernie, I'm sorry.
[04:20.710 --> 04:21.330]  No problem.
[04:21.430 --> 04:22.050]  This is Bernie.
[04:22.070 --> 04:24.510]  And I'm actually not in Philadelphia, but I'm somewhere in Pennsylvania.
[04:24.830 --> 04:25.230]  Okay.
[04:25.290 --> 04:27.910]  But, Steve, can you find out exactly where Bernie is?
[04:28.130 --> 04:28.910]  No, he's just good.
[04:28.970 --> 04:30.590]  He'll know exactly where you are.
[04:30.630 --> 04:33.970]  He'll pinpoint your location in the next couple of hours.
[04:35.110 --> 04:38.210]  Well, if you knew my phone number here, I'm calling from the landline.
[04:38.210 --> 04:42.350]  I'm sure you could figure it out in short order, but somewhere in northeastern Pennsylvania.
[04:42.710 --> 04:43.290]  We'll put it that way.
[04:43.450 --> 04:43.570]  Okay.
[04:43.630 --> 04:44.510]  We've got that much to go on.
[04:45.350 --> 05:01.270]  So, Bernie, let me ask you, first of all, what do you make of the revelations that have been taking place in the past few weeks with the Associated Press having reporters basically their phone records analyzed by government officials?
[05:01.530 --> 05:02.750]  I'm not surprised at all.
[05:02.910 --> 05:17.470]  I'm surprised that they did it legally, that it was done using a subpoena as opposed to just getting the information, which is what's been going on for as long as telephones have been around, and pen registers have been around.
[05:18.170 --> 05:22.550]  Government has always been looking at people's phone records, legally or otherwise.
[05:22.990 --> 05:32.910]  This time, it was done using, you know, apparently legal means, although for dubious reasons.
[05:33.950 --> 05:38.290]  And I'm really surprised that people are up in arms that the government would do this.
[05:38.490 --> 05:39.810]  Like, they do it all the time.
[05:39.910 --> 05:42.530]  At this time, it just became publicized.
[05:43.030 --> 05:47.930]  Well, even by government standards, Bernie, I mean, it was ridiculously overbroad.
[05:48.090 --> 05:52.390]  They subpoenaed one reporter's father's telephone records.
[05:52.730 --> 06:03.050]  They subpoenaed the records and the activity from a phone that was used by more than a hundred reporters in the capital.
[06:03.690 --> 06:08.970]  It was a, uh, an amazing fishing expedition.
[06:09.670 --> 06:10.810]  And, um...
[06:10.810 --> 06:12.550]  Isn't that what they call a roving wiretap?
[06:12.710 --> 06:13.570]  No, no.
[06:14.090 --> 06:19.330]  A roving wiretap is targeted at one guy following him everywhere he goes.
[06:19.670 --> 06:25.670]  Uh, this was just basically, uh, uh, a dragnet.
[06:25.850 --> 06:31.990]  Uh, this was the electronic equivalent of in the 1950s, you know, round up all the usual suspects.
[06:31.990 --> 06:35.310]  Here it was, tap every telephone you can think of.
[06:35.490 --> 06:36.810]  Well, it wasn't a tap though, right?
[06:37.230 --> 06:38.810]  No, excuse me.
[06:38.870 --> 06:39.790]  That's exactly correct.
[06:39.790 --> 06:40.770]  It was not a tap.
[06:40.930 --> 06:43.310]  It was, it was a, a records dump.
[06:43.650 --> 06:50.770]  Um, but, but it, it was also a little more insidious this time with the increases in technology.
[06:50.970 --> 06:59.130]  It was not only the calls to and from a cell phone, but it was the location of that cell phone at any moment.
[06:59.490 --> 07:18.470]  And for those of you who, who don't keep up on this sort of thing, um, one of the techniques now being used to hopefully, uh, in the hope of finding these leakers is what's known as a tower dump, uh, generically known as data valence.
[07:18.610 --> 07:35.030]  One of the things that they're doing now is they're identifying a reporter who writes a story, uh, with a source that they want to identify and they grab all of the cell phones that were near that reporter's cell phone for a period of time.
[07:35.370 --> 07:40.990]  And if a potential source for the story pops up, then they have their new target of investigation.
[07:41.290 --> 08:04.650]  In other words, if, if I write a story about, uh, if I'm a reporter for AP and I write a story about, uh, uh, a new prison in, uh, in, uh, Brazil and the FBI determines that, uh, two weeks before the, uh, commander of that prison was, uh, within a hundred feet of me,
[08:05.250 --> 08:07.590]  they know pretty much who my source is.
[08:07.770 --> 08:09.850]  And he wouldn't have even had to been using her phone, correct?
[08:10.330 --> 08:11.110]  That's correct.
[08:11.410 --> 08:12.170]  That's correct.
[08:12.470 --> 08:18.230]  Well, the phone would have had to have been on, but there's, there's a million other ways to do electronic tracking.
[08:19.070 --> 08:37.470]  Um, I'm, I'm amazed by the people who think that, uh, for example, and, and, uh, Emmanuel and I were talking about this before the show, we're going to be announcing something pretty dramatic, I guess, in the second hour of the show, uh, a program that we think is going to very much help these reporters in the future.
[08:37.970 --> 08:47.590]  But, uh, um, you know, there, there are just so many technical means and methods to identify everything and everyone.
[08:47.850 --> 08:57.810]  Now I love it when, when reporters say, well, I got a drop phone and, and they don't realize that that drop phone is spending the night in their house.
[08:57.810 --> 09:02.530]  And that drop phone is walking down the street alongside their regular phone.
[09:02.650 --> 09:06.670]  And that drop phone, uh, is out to dinner with their girlfriend.
[09:07.030 --> 09:09.910]  How hard is it to determine whose drop phone that is?
[09:10.150 --> 09:12.490]  Uh, and so on and so on and so on.
[09:12.750 --> 09:20.750]  Most reporters have the right idea, but they don't have the, the technical, uh, expertise to be anonymous.
[09:20.950 --> 09:22.470]  And we're going to do something about that.
[09:22.590 --> 09:37.790]  And what particularly strikes me about this right now, um, aside of all the chilling effects, um, upon journalism and, uh, you know, protected speech and things like that is the fact that this information is being collected to begin with, um, all in some system beyond anyone's knowledge or control,
[09:37.830 --> 09:43.270]  just waiting for somebody to, uh, dredge up the info out of it and, uh, hand it to someone in the manner that's been done here.
[09:43.590 --> 09:46.850]  So, you know, it's, it's journalists this time, who is it going to be next time?
[09:46.990 --> 09:49.650]  And who is it often when it doesn't, when it doesn't hit the headlines?
[09:51.130 --> 09:59.850]  You know, and, and I think that, you know, these are two very, excuse me, interesting points that have been brought up because, um, you know, this last point about who's collecting the data.
[10:00.010 --> 10:06.490]  Well, in the United States, we're not entirely sure because there is no actual data retention obligation as such right now.
[10:06.630 --> 10:21.230]  But coincidentally in Europe, since 2009, the EU passed the EU data retention directive, which mandates that all communications providers actually store that cut exactly the type of communications data that Steve has just discussed.
[10:21.430 --> 10:37.430]  And I never thought about data balance in that, in that situation, but I think that, uh, you know, that's incredibly troubling from a privacy perspective because then you have communications carriers acting in a judicial capacity and those guys are then going to become the gatekeepers of this private information.
[10:37.550 --> 10:38.430]  What do you think about that, Steve?
[10:38.930 --> 10:43.130]  Well, I, I have to tell you, there's a reason why there isn't a mandate to collect this right now.
[10:43.230 --> 11:06.770]  It's because it is being collected and there's a really insidious thing that's taking place right now in the U S years and years of your phone calls, your emails, your smartphone usage, and more important than that, your location detail every minute of the day is now being kept by AT&T and Verizon and Sprint and what have you.
[11:06.950 --> 11:09.070]  And here's the, here's the bad part.
[11:09.230 --> 11:13.410]  It is a, a, a private business record.
[11:13.810 --> 11:15.370]  You don't own it.
[11:15.650 --> 11:29.010]  If I, if, if, if, if I am working for the, for the FBI and I want to know where you were last Thursday, I can go to your carrier and I can say, tell me where he was last Thursday.
[11:29.130 --> 11:30.410]  And they can say, sure.
[11:30.890 --> 11:36.830]  They don't have to get a warrant and you have nothing to say about it because it's technically not your information.
[11:36.950 --> 11:38.590]  It's the carrier's information.
[11:38.750 --> 11:41.470]  And that applies across the board.
[11:41.670 --> 11:52.930]  Let me tell you, when I run your social security number and I find out every place you've used that social security number, everything you've done with it, I'm getting it from a private business source.
[11:53.110 --> 12:12.390]  If I want to know everywhere your car has been, meaning everywhere you've driven in the state of New York for the past six months, those are private companies that are gathering and aggregating that, that automatic license plate reader information and selling it to the government.
[12:12.390 --> 12:27.970]  Now, even by the way, when customs and border patrol shoots a picture of your license plate going and coming across the Canadian border or the Mexican border, they turn it over to these private companies and they say, here, you aggregate this, you index it,
[12:28.090 --> 12:29.230]  and you just give it back to us.
[12:29.330 --> 12:33.610]  So this goes beyond just easy pass, uh, keeping track of where you've been.
[12:33.910 --> 12:36.910]  Oh, easy passes is so last century.
[12:37.050 --> 12:37.310]  Uh-huh.
[12:37.710 --> 12:52.770]  Uh, uh, uh, uh, listen, without leaving my house, and I mean, this has been the basis of my talks at every hope, but now it is so far exponentially beyond what we discussed even a year ago.
[12:53.170 --> 13:10.990]  Um, without leaving my house, I know everywhere that you've been, everybody you've met with, everybody you've talked to, everything you've purchased, every book you read, every movie you've watched, uh, every time you've been paid.
[13:11.110 --> 13:12.670]  You know, I had a conversation.
[13:12.670 --> 13:17.130]  I'll just say this very, very quickly because we could go on like this for the whole show.
[13:17.530 --> 13:28.030]  Um, I had a, a conversation with somebody yesterday, a really smart young hacker who is going to be rolling out ATMs for Bitcoin.
[13:28.890 --> 13:29.670]  Oh my God.
[13:29.810 --> 13:32.290]  And I said, and I said, this is a game changer.
[13:32.490 --> 13:32.810]  Uh huh.
[13:32.910 --> 13:34.930]  He says, oh yeah, there's been a bunch of us discussing it.
[13:34.990 --> 13:38.810]  There was apparently a Bitcoin conference, which I didn't even know about.
[13:39.110 --> 13:48.110]  I'm, I'm sure two thirds of the people there were from the IRS, but you know, they had this bit Bitcoin convention and they're going to be rolling out ATMs.
[13:48.190 --> 13:55.510]  Now the, the big, the, the big drawback to Bitcoin is how do you, how do you get your money in and how do you get your money out?
[13:55.890 --> 14:03.850]  Well, there's going to be ATMs where you can go to an ATM, put in $5,000 worth of cash and, and convert it to Bitcoins.
[14:04.130 --> 14:14.570]  And then if you want later to cash out some of your Bitcoins, you go to the, to the, uh, uh, ATM and you do whatever you need to do to authenticate and it spits out a hundred dollar bills.
[14:15.670 --> 14:18.490]  I told this guy, this is a brilliant idea.
[14:18.770 --> 14:20.110]  This is a game changer.
[14:20.290 --> 14:22.910]  And I want to be on your legal defense team when you're arrested.
[14:23.070 --> 14:27.510]  Well, do you think something like this is going to be targeted by the powers that be because it is a game changer?
[14:27.710 --> 14:31.570]  It has to be because, because first of all, it kills know your customer.
[14:31.830 --> 14:35.710]  The truth is it will, it will listen.
[14:36.490 --> 14:38.170]  I think Bitcoin is wonderful.
[14:38.550 --> 14:40.570]  I am all for anonymity.
[14:41.010 --> 14:46.330]  Uh, uh, but the fact of the matter is this will facilitate crimes.
[14:46.510 --> 14:48.130]  This will facilitate drug dealing.
[14:48.310 --> 14:51.410]  This will facilitate payment of kidnapping ransoms.
[14:51.570 --> 14:54.830]  This will facilitate terrorism funding.
[14:55.810 --> 14:56.490]  That's it.
[14:56.490 --> 14:57.290]  That's the downside.
[14:57.710 --> 15:09.870]  But Steve Dunn, a lot of other activities, a lot of other, uh, available technologies and things assist all of those types of criminals like automobiles, computers, uh, pens and pencils.
[15:10.470 --> 15:10.990]  Well, okay.
[15:10.990 --> 15:15.210]  I mean, you're, you're being, you're being a little, a little clever about it.
[15:15.210 --> 15:24.010]  But, uh, but, uh, I think pens and pencils are, are actually, are actually probably less important to the terrorists than most things.
[15:24.230 --> 15:31.090]  Well, if we lived in a society where there were no pens and pencils and suddenly they were introduced, I think we might see the same arguments against them and that they could facilitate crime.
[15:31.470 --> 15:33.210]  Frankly, I think we should ban pens and pencils.
[15:33.370 --> 15:34.890]  Well, that's, uh, that's something we could pursue.
[15:35.150 --> 15:36.850]  This could be the topic of our next show.
[15:36.970 --> 15:40.910]  But, um, Bitcoins is, you know, has anyone here ever used paid with anything with a Bitcoin?
[15:41.050 --> 15:41.210]  Nobody.
[15:41.470 --> 15:41.650]  Okay.
[15:41.730 --> 15:42.610]  I, I, I actually have.
[15:42.710 --> 15:43.070]  You have.
[15:43.190 --> 15:45.990]  I did it just to, just to test the process.
[15:46.230 --> 15:47.330]  And, and tell us what it was like.
[15:47.910 --> 15:52.990]  Uh, it was, it was annoying because the penetration is not enormous.
[15:53.130 --> 16:04.530]  Look, Bitcoins are now at the point that PayPal was at about eight years ago when it was pissing everybody off and it was difficult to use and they were losing money and making the payments.
[16:04.750 --> 16:12.470]  And then all of a sudden PayPal became the default for eBay and ultimately became owned by eBay.
[16:12.710 --> 16:23.330]  And then PayPal and eBay swallowed up Skype and you had a communications method and you had a massive user base and you had stuff you could actually spend it on.
[16:23.510 --> 16:28.290]  And you had the ability to say to people, I'll PayPal you.
[16:28.530 --> 16:32.430]  Right now, I can't say, Hey Eric, I owe you a hundred bucks.
[16:32.550 --> 16:33.470]  I'll Bitcoin you.
[16:33.610 --> 16:34.950]  It's not at that point yet.
[16:34.950 --> 16:47.170]  But once these ATMs are at, and once there's a gigantic user base, frankly, the people that want to monitor your money are massively screwed because this isn't just an alternative currency.
[16:47.190 --> 16:49.010]  This is a P2P currency.
[16:49.490 --> 16:54.430]  There's no centralized, there's no federal bank of Bitcoin.
[16:55.390 --> 16:55.990]  Interesting.
[16:56.330 --> 17:06.970]  Well, we, uh, we are living in the dramatic times where businesses are changing, uh, entire cultures are changing, uh, publishing, broadcasting, financial.
[17:07.250 --> 17:09.870]  It's all, it's all turning into something completely different.
[17:10.150 --> 17:18.050]  I recommend that you do what I did, which is you get a house in the hill country of Texas where you barely have a cell signal.
[17:18.390 --> 17:21.150]  You have dial up speed internet.
[17:21.830 --> 17:26.650]  Nobody can find you and, and you live your, your, your nice, quiet life.
[17:26.830 --> 17:28.950]  I've got most of those things, but, uh, the Texas thing.
[17:29.030 --> 17:29.150]  Okay.
[17:29.210 --> 17:31.590]  I'll add, I'll add that, but wow.
[17:31.910 --> 17:35.870]  Um, so, uh, Steven, any new projects that you've been involved in, uh, recently?
[17:36.230 --> 17:40.090]  I have, I have, uh, a couple of things you know about.
[17:40.490 --> 17:43.910]  I am now the, uh, the editor in chief.
[17:44.290 --> 17:47.310]  I made up that title myself because they didn't give me a title.
[17:47.770 --> 17:55.470]  I'm working with a project called the intelligence and investigative library, and we are rolling out 10 books over the next 18 months.
[17:55.730 --> 18:03.490]  Uh, the first one is going to be on a very famous spy ring, the Culper spy ring, whole lot of new information.
[18:03.490 --> 18:11.170]  There are teams of probably some of the best investigators and researchers working on these books, really, really dramatic stuff.
[18:11.610 --> 18:25.890]  Uh, we're putting out a book on Herbert Yardley, uh, who was the writer of the only book ever seized and banned by the U S and he founded what was known as the American black chamber, which became the NSA.
[18:26.630 --> 18:38.530]  Uh, we've got another book coming out on the anti-fraud activities of PT Barnum, which is, which is a remarkable book, but, but more important than all of that.
[18:39.030 --> 18:45.990]  Um, I think we should talk about the project that I and some of my colleagues are going to be doing with you and some of your colleagues.
[18:47.110 --> 18:52.510]  Um, for the past few minutes, we've been talking about all the problems the press has been having.
[18:53.310 --> 19:03.070]  Uh, I just came back from a, uh, a very large convention of private investigators in Florida called the Falley Conference.
[19:03.930 --> 19:15.210]  And, uh, for the first time ever, uh, you know, big problem with private investigators is it's really easy for people to take cheap shots at private investigators.
[19:15.370 --> 19:16.230]  They're keyhole peepers.
[19:16.350 --> 19:20.590]  They do all kinds of illegal things, which is substantially bull.
[19:20.890 --> 19:33.250]  Uh, but the press, the press has not until recently realized that private investigators and journalists are essentially the same animal, just with different licensing requirements.
[19:33.610 --> 19:46.630]  And at this conference, for example, one of the keynote speakers was a, was a highly regarded reporter from the Associated Press who stood up and said, PIs and journalists are separated at birth.
[19:47.610 --> 19:54.910]  And I thought to myself, you know, the, the, the third triplet is hackers.
[19:56.050 --> 20:08.950]  And what the listener doesn't know is that, is that Emmanuel and I have been chatting about this and plotting and conspiring, maybe not the best word to use, but, uh, well, right.
[20:09.290 --> 20:16.870]  Um, and I, I mean, this is to me very, very exciting and this is being announced for the first time.
[20:17.050 --> 20:18.630]  Glad I'm the guy who's doing it.
[20:18.870 --> 20:27.670]  We are going to put together a joint event with the investigative community, the hacker community, and the journalist community.
[20:27.670 --> 20:29.170]  I've spoken to a bunch of journalists.
[20:29.410 --> 20:40.130]  I've spoken to probably some of the best cyber investigators in the country, the people who, who teach the FBI, who speak at the NSA, who speak at the CIA and instruct.
[20:40.770 --> 20:48.690]  Um, uh, I, I, I reached out to, uh, to our mutual friend, Kevin, and he's not opposed some other people.
[20:49.490 --> 21:00.770]  Um, and we are going to put together a, a, you know, the care, the safe care and feeding of anonymous sources conference.
[21:01.070 --> 21:14.310]  This is going to be a conference that's going to teach the press how to handle sources, how to communicate with sources, how to meet with sources, how to be anonymous, how to be untrackable.
[21:14.730 --> 21:24.970]  You know, if you are a whistleblower right now, there is a target on your back and, and it's a huge target.
[21:25.110 --> 21:28.810]  It's an enormous, visible, easily discoverable target.
[21:29.090 --> 21:41.490]  Um, if I want to know who's leaking a story to a particular reporter, there are dozens of new technical means that are available for me to find your identity.
[21:41.650 --> 21:50.370]  And the average reporter, even though they're pretty darn smart, uh, has no clue how dead privacy is dead.
[21:50.590 --> 21:57.150]  They don't understand pervasive video surveillance with analytics and facial recognition.
[21:57.390 --> 22:00.230]  They don't understand what cell phones can really do.
[22:00.390 --> 22:03.670]  They don't understand how useless a drop phone is.
[22:03.830 --> 22:11.750]  They don't understand that, that using Tor is meaningless because every browser is now fingerprinted.
[22:11.830 --> 22:36.990]  They don't understand things like forensic linguistics, where even if you post anonymously, I can run your post through a machine and figure out with a high, high degree of accuracy who posted that anonymous post and, and your group, Eric, 2600 and my crew and some of the best journalists out there,
[22:37.150 --> 22:45.830]  many of whom have already signed on, on board this, we are going to have a joint event and it's not going to, because this is so critical.
[22:46.450 --> 23:07.050]  Um, um, we've all agreed not to wait until the hope conference, which is a year from now, we are going to do, um, uh, essentially a mid winter conference, a, a, uh, 20, 12 and a half conference.
[23:07.670 --> 23:16.230]  And we're going to have a five or six hour event that we're going to pull together, maybe at a J school or maybe at a auditorium.
[23:16.330 --> 23:17.970]  We'll, we'll pick an appropriate venue.
[23:18.110 --> 23:18.750]  We have to find a venue.
[23:18.910 --> 23:20.790]  That's the first order of business is to find a venue.
[23:20.950 --> 23:21.910]  Right, right.
[23:22.350 --> 23:28.850]  I think this is going to be an amazing event and I think it's going to infuriate all the right people.
[23:29.210 --> 23:31.590]  That's always been my, my dream to do that.
[23:31.630 --> 23:34.370]  And, uh, I hope that we've, we succeed in that.
[23:34.490 --> 23:44.370]  And of course, people want to be involved, uh, right to us, right to Steve, right to, uh, uh, all kinds of people, because I think, like you said, these communities will get together on this issue.
[23:44.530 --> 23:51.650]  If you want to attend this conference, if you think you have something to contribute to it, please contact 2600.
[23:52.070 --> 24:02.330]  Uh, if you can suggest a venue, ideally at an academic institution, uh, we, we are going to reach out to, to the Columbia J school.
[24:02.530 --> 24:07.770]  We're going to speak to John Jay, a couple of other schools where, where I've spoken and have some contacts.
[24:08.530 --> 24:14.310]  Uh, anybody, we, we, we need a room of not less than 500 seats.
[24:14.310 --> 24:14.330]  Yeah.
[24:14.330 --> 24:17.710]  We're looking to do this, uh, you know, as cheaply as possible.
[24:17.710 --> 24:21.190]  If we can get a donation of a room that would make it even... Well, ideally zero.
[24:21.370 --> 24:21.630]  Yes.
[24:21.730 --> 24:22.930]  That's what we're shooting for.
[24:23.130 --> 24:28.170]  So if we can, if we can get things donated, then obviously there won't be any charge to get in.
[24:28.450 --> 24:31.170]  Uh, and if we have to pay for something, then there'll be a minimal charge.
[24:31.170 --> 24:37.150]  Well, there's, there's going to be a minimal charge because we have to fly people in, but none of the speakers are going to get paid.
[24:37.650 --> 24:42.110]  Uh, uh, you know, this is definitely going to be a not-for-profit event.
[24:42.290 --> 24:48.290]  I, I think that this is an incredibly, uh, critical and time sensitive thing.
[24:48.370 --> 25:00.790]  And I think if the hacker community and the investigative community can put their expertise at the disposal of, of investigative journalists, I think that'll be a remarkable moment.
[25:01.630 --> 25:04.030]  Bernie, any questions since you're hearing about this for the first time?
[25:04.290 --> 25:18.830]  Well, I mean, I'm, I guess it's the first time I'm hearing about it and I'm really excited and pleased that this is happening because I think that investigative journalists are, uh, some of the most important people in the country as far as, uh, making people aware,
[25:19.170 --> 25:29.110]  uh, making, making everyone aware of abuses and what our, by our government and corporations and what they're all doing.
[25:29.110 --> 25:39.530]  Um, which we would have no way of knowing otherwise without whistleblowers, without reporters who are willing to stick their necks out and report the stories and name names.
[25:39.950 --> 25:42.170]  Uh, we'd be in far worse shape than we are.
[25:42.250 --> 25:48.050]  We're already in really bad shape, but it could be far worse if we didn't know what was going on at all.
[25:49.110 --> 25:49.510]  Absolutely.
[25:49.630 --> 25:50.910]  And we're about getting the knowledge out.
[25:51.130 --> 25:57.130]  And I, I hate to break in here, but we do have to do this to keep the knowledge flowing on this particular radio station, which is an amazing place.
[25:57.290 --> 26:08.370]  The fact that we're able to, uh, to broadcast, uh, words like this and have been doing it since 1988, uh, is, is nothing short of a miracle, but that miracle happens because of support from listeners like you.
[26:08.430 --> 26:19.990]  Now what we're offering today in conjunction with Steve's appearance here, uh, is something really kind of, uh, in the spirit of it all, uh, a bit, uh, a bit sneaky, a bit technological and very educational.
[26:19.990 --> 26:25.730]  Uh, for a pledge of $75, you will get what's known as the digital audio flash drive.
[26:25.910 --> 26:29.070]  And what that gives you, uh, is an eight gig flash drive.
[26:29.190 --> 26:32.710]  You can just plug it into your computer and surreptitiously record people.
[26:32.930 --> 26:33.130]  Yeah.
[26:33.310 --> 26:35.490]  For, uh, a number of hours.
[26:35.650 --> 26:41.530]  Uh, we haven't quite figured out exactly how many estimates range from, uh, a dozen or so to over a hundred.
[26:41.910 --> 26:45.970]  We're not entirely sure we haven't actually used this ourself, but, uh, it's, it's, it's pretty cool.
[26:46.150 --> 26:59.130]  And in addition to that, uh, that eight gig flash drive, uh, in keeping with the spirit of, of maintaining your anonymity when you want to speak to people, or maybe you want to leak a story to the Associated Press and not get, uh, hauled into court for it,
[26:59.150 --> 27:02.830]  uh, we're also going to include a $10 spoof card.
[27:03.030 --> 27:12.330]  Uh, what a spoof card is, uh, it's, it's a special, um, uh, um, I guess, uh, service that allows you to change the phone number you're calling from.
[27:12.410 --> 27:13.530]  You can also change your voice.
[27:13.670 --> 27:15.850]  You know, you can sound like one of those kidnappers on late night TV.
[27:16.250 --> 27:19.530]  Uh, but, uh, we, we don't advise that, at least not the kidnapping part.
[27:19.890 --> 27:26.450]  Uh, so you'll get that in addition to the digital audio flash drive for a pledge of a hundred, uh, $75 for a pledge of 125.
[27:26.470 --> 27:27.290]  You get all that.
[27:27.350 --> 27:36.850]  Plus you get all of Steve Rombaum's talks at every single hope conference, uh, that we recorded him at, which is, uh, I believe, uh, everything from beyond hope up until hope number nine.
[27:37.130 --> 27:44.130]  So that's, uh, that's eight conferences, each one, at least an hour, some of them up to three hours, a lot of DVDs, and you'll learn so much.
[27:44.190 --> 27:54.370]  And you'll also see how Steve was on top of things way back, uh, in the, in the, uh, 1990s and the early two thousands, talking about things that are coming down the pike that have since come down the pike.
[27:54.430 --> 28:00.330]  And now we're waving, uh, at their tail section as they, uh, lead even more scary things into our midst.
[28:00.470 --> 28:08.730]  Uh, the phone number is 516-620-3602, uh, to take advantage of all these, uh, cool items that we're offering.
[28:08.870 --> 28:19.690]  Again, the, uh, the digital audio flash drive for a pledge of $75 and you get the $10 spoof card with that or for one 25, the digital audio flash drive plus DVD set.
[28:19.850 --> 28:40.270]  So you'll get the, uh, the ability to record people surreptitiously from your laptop or, uh, any other device that, uh, you can plug a USB, um, um, thumb drive into, uh, you'll get the, uh, the spoof card, which allows you to, um, to control where you call from and you'll get a whole bunch of DVDs where you'll learn all kinds of things about privacy and just how dead it really is and ways you
[28:40.270 --> 28:41.830]  might be able to preserve your anonymity.
[28:42.090 --> 28:44.410]  516-620-3602.
[28:44.690 --> 28:49.150]  We really need to have a strong show of support, uh, to keep this radio show going.
[28:49.290 --> 28:49.390]  Rob?
[28:49.990 --> 28:58.250]  And indeed, uh, if you, if you can't, uh, give as much as it takes to get those gifts, we still need any bit of help you can spare, any amount, uh, any amount that you can donate.
[28:58.570 --> 29:08.010]  And for those of you listening to us, um, by means other than live audio, whether you're listening to us on MP3s, podcasts, things like that, you can always donate in the name of off the hook.
[29:08.150 --> 29:15.230]  If you go to WBAI.org and follow the links, we can't give you our special premiums, but we can give you the most important one, which is this radio station.
[29:15.430 --> 29:20.750]  Actually, I can, I can monitor because of a new system we have here at WBAI where we have a set number of items.
[29:21.170 --> 29:24.750]  We can actually leave those available until those items are taken.
[29:24.890 --> 29:27.250]  So if they're still available, yeah, we can do that now.
[29:27.370 --> 29:29.170]  If, if there's still, we had no way of doing that before.
[29:29.510 --> 29:31.290]  And now it's a simply an entry in a computer field.
[29:31.470 --> 29:36.270]  Uh, so we have a set number of these items and if they're all taken during this two hour period, then they're all gone.
[29:36.270 --> 29:42.750]  But if, say, there are two or three left over and somebody calls in, the computer can be looked up and they'll say, yeah, we have one.
[29:42.830 --> 29:43.450]  And you can have that.
[29:43.630 --> 29:43.690]  Steve?
[29:43.790 --> 29:52.010]  You, you, you should know that these USB, uh, concealed recording devices are, are actually a lot cooler than, than you, uh, described.
[29:52.010 --> 29:55.710]  They do not have to be plugged into anything to record.
[29:55.830 --> 29:59.090]  Uh, you can plug them, you can plug them into a USB drive.
[29:59.450 --> 30:06.890]  They will recharge the battery and then you can pull it out and just leave it, leave it laying on your desk or have it in your pocket.
[30:06.890 --> 30:12.970]  And if, you know, your, your, your favorite, uh, miscreant is patting you down and says, what's this in your pocket?
[30:13.050 --> 30:14.210]  Oh, it's just my USB drive.
[30:14.330 --> 30:14.850]  Don't worry about it.
[30:14.870 --> 30:25.870]  We should point out that, uh, you should check with your, uh, well, maybe not call them, but look up on the, on the web or something, your local, state, federal authorities, make sure that you're not breaking the law by recording people without their knowledge.
[30:26.230 --> 30:28.650]  Speaking about reporters, there's a great site.
[30:28.650 --> 30:32.230]  If you Google in quotes, can we tape?
[30:32.830 --> 30:39.210]  Uh, it takes you to the, uh, reporters committee on freedom and privacy and they have every state's recording laws there.
[30:39.330 --> 30:41.990]  And of course, uh, laws vary in different countries as well.
[30:42.230 --> 30:46.370]  And, uh, since we offer these things to people worldwide, uh, it's always good to check.
[30:46.370 --> 30:50.550]  You might be imprisoned or tortured for doing these things, uh, in, in your particular locale.
[30:50.990 --> 30:54.630]  But again, the phone number is, uh, 516-620-3602.
[30:54.790 --> 31:06.530]  Pledge of $75 for the, uh, the, uh, special digital audio flash drive and spoof card, uh, or pledge of 125 for the, uh, flash drive, digital audio flash drive, spoof card, and DVD set.
[31:06.830 --> 31:08.990]  516-620-3602.
[31:09.130 --> 31:09.510]  Yes, Bernie?
[31:10.030 --> 31:12.870]  Oh, well... I knew you wanted to say something.
[31:12.890 --> 31:15.130]  No, no, I was, I was on the edge of my seat here.
[31:15.310 --> 31:17.770]  Uh, what, what Steve, uh, said was true, that these things are pretty cool.
[31:17.890 --> 31:23.930]  Like, when I was in, uh, China a couple years ago with Mitch Altman and, uh, and friends, um, I was looking for one of these things.
[31:24.030 --> 31:25.230]  I knew they had to exist.
[31:25.230 --> 31:28.670]  And I went through this whole building that sold, like, cool electronics things.
[31:28.970 --> 31:31.510]  And I found one vendor that had this thing.
[31:31.630 --> 31:32.210]  They had one left.
[31:32.570 --> 31:33.390]  And I got it.
[31:33.490 --> 31:38.290]  And, uh, it looks like it's a regular thumb drive, you know, just a USB flash drive.
[31:38.450 --> 31:43.390]  But that night, we were at a lounge on top of some, uh, big building in Beijing, all 10 of us.
[31:43.930 --> 31:45.950]  And, uh, I thought I'd have some fun.
[31:46.050 --> 31:46.950]  And I, I passed it around.
[31:47.110 --> 31:48.030]  I turned it on to record.
[31:48.490 --> 31:49.770]  And I just passed around.
[31:49.790 --> 31:52.330]  I said, uh, hey, this isn't just a flash drive.
[31:52.530 --> 31:54.490]  Can you figure out what else it does?
[31:55.150 --> 32:00.850]  And for the next, probably at least 10 minutes or so, this thing was passed around the circle.
[32:00.990 --> 32:03.050]  Everybody was like trying to figure out what it is, making comments.
[32:03.610 --> 32:04.010]  Nobody.
[32:04.030 --> 32:06.170]  These are like some of the smartest hackers I know.
[32:06.630 --> 32:18.130]  And none of them figured out what this thing is until I plugged it into my laptop and started playing back their, uh, all their, all their guesses as a high bit rate wave files.
[32:18.270 --> 32:18.930]  And they were stunned.
[32:19.010 --> 32:19.950]  They're like, holy crap.
[32:19.970 --> 32:21.530]  That is all in that little thing.
[32:21.650 --> 32:23.010]  That's the size of a normal fly.
[32:23.050 --> 32:24.150]  It looks like a regular flash drive.
[32:24.190 --> 32:25.290]  You can hang it on your key chain.
[32:25.530 --> 32:30.890]  Nobody would know, um, what it is unless they were really good.
[32:30.970 --> 32:33.030]  So, and there were some really good people looking at them.
[32:33.150 --> 32:48.810]  So I encourage our listeners who enjoy listening to interesting audio on this station and anywhere else and making your own interesting audio recordings to call 516-620-3602 as a, and as a thank you for pledging your support to WBAI of $75.
[32:49.550 --> 32:54.150]  Um, we will give you one of these digital audio flash drives, um, of course, many hours.
[32:54.710 --> 32:58.270]  Um, we'll give you a spoof card that will let you make $10 worth of phone calls.
[32:58.270 --> 33:03.130]  And you can change the caller ID on, on the person's phone that you're, that was receiving your calls.
[33:03.390 --> 33:10.730]  Um, if you're generous enough and able enough to, uh, pledge $125 in support, you'll get all that, plus nine DVDs, at least nine DVDs.
[33:10.750 --> 33:11.750]  More than that, more than that.
[33:11.770 --> 33:16.310]  At least, probably a dozen or more DVDs of Steve Rambam's fascinating talks.
[33:16.650 --> 33:24.750]  And really, they're good to look, listen back to from the early days, because you can see how things have progressed with surveillance and privacy over the years.
[33:24.870 --> 33:37.850]  And it's really tough to, to, to just, just sit and think of how far we've come and how things, how bad things have gotten, unless you have that perspective, call 21, I'm sorry, 516-620-3602.
[33:38.090 --> 33:42.510]  We appreciate your support for this station and we're willing to show it by offering you some great gifts.
[33:42.670 --> 33:44.990]  Please call in and, uh, pledge what you can tonight.
[33:45.210 --> 33:50.750]  Uh, we've got a lot of really, really cool tools and it's, it's not just about having the equipment it's and, and, or the information.
[33:50.750 --> 33:51.910]  It's about how you use it.
[33:52.010 --> 34:00.790]  Uh, whether you're a journalist or a investigator or, or, um, or a hacker, uh, we're here, we want to, we want to disseminate the information, get it out to you.
[34:00.950 --> 34:03.830]  We're here, we're telling you about, you know, how to use this, this equipment.
[34:04.210 --> 34:11.130]  And, uh, what Steve just announced tonight is, is basically that, like it's a, it's a workshop, a massive independent workshop.
[34:11.130 --> 34:17.930]  We want to organize to, uh, to give people tools and resources so that they know how to use, use what's available.
[34:18.070 --> 34:18.490]  It's great.
[34:18.570 --> 34:28.070]  We have a lot of, uh, new technologies that can be used, uh, to counter some of these, these, uh, uh, uh, I don't know, egregious privacy violations.
[34:28.550 --> 34:32.890]  And, uh, what it's really about is not just having it, but knowing how to use it and use it effectively.
[34:33.410 --> 34:38.650]  And, uh, yeah, it only happens and, and, uh, we can only continue to, to tell you about this stuff if you call in and pledge.
[34:40.090 --> 34:49.430]  To bounce off that point, which I think is a fantastic point, and also to bounce back to Steve's point about the protection of sources and how important it is to protect sources of information.
[34:49.830 --> 34:52.810]  I think you should think of WBAI as one of your sources.
[34:52.870 --> 34:54.910]  We've been around for a very, very long time.
[34:55.050 --> 34:56.350]  We've been providing you with information.
[34:56.510 --> 34:58.070]  You need to really protect us.
[34:58.170 --> 35:00.950]  And to protect this source, you need to pledge.
[35:01.150 --> 35:12.090]  You need to call 516-620-3602 and support the station, support this type of programming, support places that also keep your voice on the air, not only ours, but yours as well.
[35:12.770 --> 35:13.170]  Absolutely.
[35:13.350 --> 35:15.430]  Again, 516-620-3602.
[35:15.510 --> 35:21.210]  Now, that's, that might be a strange number to some people because it's, uh, a different area of code than where we usually, uh, take pledges.
[35:21.290 --> 35:32.270]  But what we get, we get an email when, uh, when the pledge is actually, uh, put, it's actually a more efficient system because we immediately know, uh, how many people are pledging, uh, after, after they, um, they send us email that is.
[35:32.390 --> 35:42.210]  So what we'd like to see is a bunch of emails coming in from the, uh, the call center, uh, telling us how many people are out there and whether we can thank you on the air and, and, and things like that.
[35:42.330 --> 35:43.870]  It's a different system, but we're getting used to it.
[35:44.270 --> 35:46.230]  516-620-3602.
[35:46.450 --> 35:47.170]  Again, $75.
[35:47.250 --> 35:52.790]  You'll get the digital audio flash drive and the, uh, the spoof card, which is really a lot of fun to play with.
[35:52.870 --> 35:54.230]  You can call people from the White House.
[35:54.330 --> 35:56.810]  You can call people from their own house and say you're inside their house.
[35:56.950 --> 35:59.870]  Uh, but you can also use it for, uh, people have used these.
[36:00.770 --> 36:10.350]  Yes, it's, I'm just thinking in a sneaky way, but people have used, uh, imagine a contractor comes to your house and does half the job and then doesn't finish the job and he's avoiding your calls.
[36:10.350 --> 36:15.670]  What happens if you call him from his own phone number, from his home number to a cell phone, always picks up.
[36:15.850 --> 36:25.610]  And that has been used so many times to get satisfaction in bad business deals or to call from say an agency that, uh, might be investigating him if they were actually calling him.
[36:26.170 --> 36:26.670]  Things like that.
[36:26.670 --> 36:29.090]  Ways you can, you can use the system to your advantage.
[36:29.290 --> 36:31.930]  It shouldn't just be used by others to hurt you.
[36:32.070 --> 36:33.690]  You should be able to take control of yourself.
[36:33.850 --> 36:34.890]  And this is a means of doing that.
[36:35.010 --> 36:38.350]  That one small item, which is included in both of these packages.
[36:38.530 --> 36:51.810]  But if you add the DVD set into that, if, if you add the, uh, the ability to record the people or, or, or, or happenings, uh, at the drop of a hat, quite literally, uh, you're, you really are well prepared if you, uh, if, if you use some judgment.
[36:52.070 --> 36:59.350]  So the phone number 516-620-3602, pledge of $75, you get the, uh, the flash drive that can record things for, for many hours.
[36:59.550 --> 37:01.810]  And you also get the spliff card for 125.
[37:01.850 --> 37:13.430]  You get all that plus a, uh, a DVD set of at least a dozen DVDs of Steve Rambam talking at various conferences about privacy issues and ways that you can keep your privacy somewhat, uh, secure.
[37:13.570 --> 37:16.690]  But I imagine those ways probably get a little less every year.
[37:16.810 --> 37:17.290]  Is that right, Steve?
[37:17.670 --> 37:18.930]  The things don't work anymore.
[37:19.130 --> 37:27.990]  Well, that's, that's probably why we're sending out the DVDs with a little piece of tinfoil that you can fold into a appropriately sized hat.
[37:28.170 --> 37:32.370]  But if you, if you know what's going on, uh, you're not going to be as susceptible.
[37:32.550 --> 37:34.790]  You might make different choices in your everyday life.
[37:35.030 --> 37:36.770]  You know, and that's the important thing, the information.
[37:36.990 --> 37:46.950]  The truth is that, that the countermeasures that are available are just as good and just as robust as the privacy invading technologies themselves.
[37:47.150 --> 37:58.730]  The reason that, that privacy is being invaded so effectively is that people aren't educating themselves as to what they can do to maintain their privacy, maintain their anonymity.
[37:59.030 --> 38:09.290]  And, uh, uh, that's something that, uh, one of the very few entities that has done any educational outreach has been 2,600.
[38:09.630 --> 38:09.830]  Yeah.
[38:09.990 --> 38:20.530]  Actually, um, through the, through the conferences and actually before I ever, uh, went to hope it was through listening some of the, to some of the audio and your talks in particular changed my life.
[38:20.770 --> 38:30.570]  I mean, I really, that information made me look at my choices using, you know, these, uh, products, these, uh, social media web 2.0 products.
[38:31.150 --> 38:36.750]  It started looking really silly because I had these, these talks, these words, this information in my mind.
[38:36.970 --> 38:44.370]  And I, I'm here today, you know, a much different person than I probably would have been if this, this information hadn't been released, if I hadn't been able to hear it.
[38:44.450 --> 38:48.950]  And I've gone to all, gone to almost every talk you've done at hope since it changed your life.
[38:49.050 --> 38:52.910]  So basically your mother is not going to be calling me and saying it's all your fault, Steve.
[38:53.530 --> 38:54.110]  All right.
[38:54.250 --> 38:54.730]  Very good.
[38:54.870 --> 38:57.630]  What I like to do is I want to thank the people who are calling in so far.
[38:57.730 --> 39:01.630]  People have called in, but they don't want to be thanked on the air, but I want to thank them anyway, but I'm just not going to say their names.
[39:01.710 --> 39:02.210]  How about that?
[39:02.650 --> 39:10.690]  Um, and you can join them 5 1 6 6 2 0 3 6 0 2 ask for the digital audio flash drive or the digital audio flash drive plus DVD set.
[39:10.910 --> 39:12.970]  I'd like to play something from the DVD set.
[39:13.050 --> 39:16.970]  Now, Kyle, you were at this conference, you're at hope number six, but you didn't go to this talk.
[39:17.050 --> 39:19.970]  And the reason you didn't go to this talk is because it didn't happen at the conference itself.
[39:20.290 --> 39:25.890]  It happened a few months later because Steve, you kind of, um, got, uh, sidetracked at the conference.
[39:26.030 --> 39:26.810]  You want to tell us the quick story?
[39:27.070 --> 39:38.290]  Well, I mean, it, it, it, uh, it worked out really well as my, as my friend, uh, Bob Kolakowski told me repeatedly, if I could get arrested like this once every five years, I'd be a billionaire.
[39:38.850 --> 39:43.150]  This was, this was the most remarkable publicity I ever got in my life.
[39:43.450 --> 39:53.390]  Uh, I had been doing, uh, an investigation of somebody who turned out, I didn't know this when I started, um, wouldn't have changed anything, but I didn't know.
[39:53.390 --> 40:04.310]  So, uh, this gentleman whose legal name had been changed to Franz Joseph von Habsburg Lothringen, and he was telling everyone he was the crown prince of Austria.
[40:04.830 --> 40:09.550]  Um, he was what's known as an FBI high echelon informant.
[40:09.730 --> 40:15.930]  Uh, he was also a busy little felon, uh, not, not a good fella.
[40:16.410 --> 40:31.090]  And when I discovered who he was and I discovered that he was a former mental patient and that he had been recruited by the FBI right after his release from, from a mental institution and, uh, a whole host of less than positive things about this fella,
[40:31.330 --> 40:36.130]  the FBI gave me a grand jury subpoena for my investigative file.
[40:36.330 --> 40:47.930]  And I refused and went in front of a federal magistrate and the federal magistrate told the FBI, uh, your subpoena is quashed and do not bother this investigator.
[40:48.230 --> 40:59.130]  So essentially they waited until this they gave me another subpoena and then they marched into the hope conference as I was about to, uh, give a talk.
[40:59.250 --> 41:01.110]  And by the way, that was a joint conference.
[41:01.270 --> 41:05.050]  There were hundreds of investigators and law enforcement or whatever there.
[41:05.190 --> 41:18.210]  We had done a full day seminar before, um, a, a raid team of FBI guys wearing the blue jackets that say FBI with heavy weapons and all of that came in and pulled me out of there.
[41:18.310 --> 41:21.010]  Why did they pick that particular time to do it?
[41:21.090 --> 41:26.730]  That's what they, they, for very obvious reasons, they wanted to, uh, they wanted to embarrass me.
[41:26.890 --> 41:28.830]  They wanted to intimidate the hacker conference.
[41:29.030 --> 41:33.290]  You know, there's, there's a book coming out called the FBI, the Prince of Austria and me.
[41:33.810 --> 41:44.370]  It's a, a going to be a main, a large publishing house is putting it out and a well-known author is writing it, the story of this whole event.
[41:44.930 --> 41:58.210]  And one of the things that you're going to find out is every HOPE conference to remind me, or to, they think, remind me that I need to behave and not bother the FBI, they do something.
[41:58.590 --> 42:02.270]  In 2006, they arrested me right before the HOPE conference.
[42:02.410 --> 42:10.670]  Now, by the way, four of those five FBI agents were either fired, one is under criminal, uh, investigation right now.
[42:10.970 --> 42:14.390]  The two prosecutors who authorized it were booted out.
[42:15.010 --> 42:18.970]  Um, you know, I, to say that I won hands down is ridiculous.
[42:19.210 --> 42:22.850]  I mean, I was released less than 40 hours later and that was that.
[42:23.450 --> 42:38.530]  Um, but before the 208 conference, the same FBI agent that led the team that arrested me in 2006 filed a complaint with the two days before the HOPE conference, tried to get my license yanked.
[42:38.530 --> 42:41.410]  That failed in 2010.
[42:42.130 --> 42:48.790]  They opened an investigation into me again, two days before the HOPE conference, not coincidences that failed.
[42:49.290 --> 42:56.830]  No, I mean, we are getting this book out before the 2014 HOPE conference.
[42:56.950 --> 43:09.950]  And by the way, you don't know this, but this is another thing that Emmanuel and I have been conspiring about a, a, a, a reader's digest version of this book is going to be submitted to 2600 magazine before the HOPE conference.
[43:10.070 --> 43:12.270]  So everybody knows what's happening.
[43:12.310 --> 43:18.650]  And it's going to say at the end of this article and at the end of the book, let's see what happens in 2014.
[43:19.390 --> 43:27.410]  Um, there's one guy left, one FBI agent left who is, I guess, the epitome of the sore loser.
[43:28.190 --> 43:33.650]  And, uh, and he's still out there, you know, twisting in the wind, trying to do something.
[43:34.150 --> 43:57.390]  But, uh, um, what happened is because I was pulled off of the stage, 2600 decided, and I have to tell you, this is, this was something that really, uh, made me pretty emotional at the time because for 2600 to tee up and to, and to so aggressively support me,
[43:57.570 --> 44:03.550]  uh, mind you, everybody else did too, but 2600 really, really led the league.
[44:03.690 --> 44:11.690]  I mean, the investigative community, uh, not just the investigative community, law enforcement agencies contacted me.
[44:11.830 --> 44:15.590]  I mean, serving special agents came and said, we'll testify for you.
[44:15.730 --> 44:20.190]  The, the uproar about what the FBI did was extraordinary.
[44:20.590 --> 44:24.310]  I got about a thousand emails in the first month.
[44:24.610 --> 44:30.190]  Maybe two of them were, you got what you deserved and 998, you know, what can we do?
[44:30.750 --> 44:47.110]  But, uh, uh, uh, uh, a sneaky little, you know, could have been a KGB guy if he wanted to by the name of Arseny Lebedev, um, which when he contacted me, I was sure it was a fake name, but it's not, that's actually someone's name.
[44:47.530 --> 44:50.950]  He called me up and he said, we are doing conference.
[44:51.410 --> 44:51.750]  Yeah.
[44:51.790 --> 44:52.630]  I hate when he does that accent.
[44:52.910 --> 44:53.110]  Yeah.
[44:53.350 --> 44:53.550]  Yeah.
[44:53.590 --> 44:59.270]  It's like, you know, uh, first we get the moose and crazy squirrel anyway.
[44:59.530 --> 45:00.790]  No, he has no accent at all.
[45:00.930 --> 45:01.550]  I'm making that up.
[45:01.610 --> 45:05.690]  But Arseny called me up and he says, I'm working with, with a manual and 2600.
[45:05.910 --> 45:07.250]  And we want you to do your talk.
[45:07.550 --> 45:11.370]  We have the auditorium at Stevens Institute of Technology.
[45:12.050 --> 45:14.870]  And I said, uh, well, okay, great.
[45:15.130 --> 45:18.110]  And he says, look, it only holds 800 people.
[45:18.890 --> 45:20.890]  And I said, excuse me?
[45:21.850 --> 45:24.990]  I said, you know, classroom would be fine.
[45:25.030 --> 45:28.350]  He says, no, no, you don't understand how pissed everybody is.
[45:29.210 --> 45:30.630]  And I want to tell you something.
[45:30.730 --> 45:34.150]  This was, this was what, like 60 days later, something like that.
[45:34.250 --> 45:35.310]  Was it October or November?
[45:35.410 --> 45:35.930]  I don't remember.
[45:36.150 --> 45:36.910]  Uh, it was in the fall.
[45:37.090 --> 45:37.450]  Whatever.
[45:37.490 --> 45:38.710]  It was a couple of months later.
[45:38.870 --> 45:39.850]  And I want to tell you something.
[45:40.070 --> 45:43.350]  I, I, I went over, this is in beautiful Hoboken.
[45:43.930 --> 45:45.170]  Um, Hoboken is beautiful.
[45:45.390 --> 45:47.070]  Well, if you say so.
[45:47.410 --> 45:48.750]  Anyway, it's Jersey.
[45:48.930 --> 45:54.290]  College and Hoboken dial 1-516-620-3602 to support the radio station.
[45:54.470 --> 45:59.110]  And for a donation of $125, I will tell you why there are no volcanoes in New Jersey.
[45:59.290 --> 45:59.950]  Oh, fair enough.
[46:00.230 --> 46:02.550]  Um, or at the end of the show.
[46:02.910 --> 46:10.230]  At, at, at any rate, um, I, I walked into the room and it was beyond standing room only.
[46:10.530 --> 46:15.010]  There were steps leading up into the back of the auditorium full.
[46:15.350 --> 46:19.850]  There were people, there, there were rafters that people were hanging from.
[46:19.950 --> 46:20.030]  Yeah.
[46:20.150 --> 46:21.510]  We had to keep the fire commissioner away.
[46:21.730 --> 46:22.450]  No, that's true.
[46:22.570 --> 46:23.190]  That's true.
[46:23.310 --> 46:29.770]  They actually threw out a fire guy from the, from the local college security there.
[46:29.890 --> 46:32.270]  They're like, get out of here and close the door in front of him.
[46:32.550 --> 46:38.250]  I mean, it was like, it was like 400 people above maximum permitted occupancy.
[46:38.730 --> 46:44.250]  And the dean of students was there and he said, uh, you know, this is, this is unbelievable.
[46:44.470 --> 46:45.270]  Who are you?
[46:45.330 --> 46:45.810]  What did you do?
[46:45.890 --> 46:47.690]  I said, I'm like a notorious criminal.
[46:47.830 --> 46:48.610]  Don't worry about it.
[46:48.810 --> 46:53.390]  And by the way, he later invited me to come and speak at a venture capitalist meeting.
[46:53.650 --> 46:53.890]  Wow.
[46:54.030 --> 46:55.370]  Which was the funniest thing ever.
[46:55.590 --> 46:57.110]  Well, you'll get this talk.
[46:57.250 --> 47:11.090]  You know, you also get the talk that Steve missed where we announced what happened to him at the help number six conference, but you also get talks from, uh, from seven other conferences that Steve has given, uh, with your pledge for $125 to 516-620-3602.
[47:11.170 --> 47:15.670]  You'll get that plus the digital audio flash drive and the spoof cards.
[47:15.830 --> 47:16.170]  Great deal.
[47:16.270 --> 47:18.390]  516-620-3602.
[47:18.490 --> 47:19.330]  Join the people who have called in.
[47:19.430 --> 47:28.830]  I want to thank David from Glenwood, New Jersey for his generous pledge and Jane from New York, uh, along with a bunch of anonymous people that are calling in 516-620-3602.
[47:29.270 --> 47:32.730]  It's a, it's, it's really a great way to show support and to learn a lot too.
[47:32.910 --> 47:39.810]  Let's listen to an excerpt from 2006 from the Stevens Institute, that makeup talk that, uh, Steve Rambam gave.
[47:40.390 --> 47:40.790]  Okay.
[47:40.890 --> 47:42.070]  If we could have your attention.
[47:42.370 --> 47:44.030]  Ready, uh, everybody here?
[47:44.150 --> 47:44.250]  Good.
[47:45.130 --> 47:47.490]  Uh, welcome to the final talk of the Hope Conference.
[47:48.210 --> 47:48.790]  It's, uh,
[47:54.720 --> 47:57.200]  I want to thank you all for braving the elements to get here.
[47:57.440 --> 48:00.080]  I want to, uh, thank Stevens for allowing us to be here.
[48:00.500 --> 48:03.960]  Uh, I want to thank Arseny for arranging all of this and making it possible.
[48:10.000 --> 48:17.620]  And of course, the person to really thank is the person who, uh, stuck through a lot of hell in July and came back to give the talk that he wasn't able to give in July.
[48:18.180 --> 48:19.020]  Steve Rambam.
[48:21.080 --> 48:21.820]  Thank you.
[48:25.100 --> 48:29.720]  As Eric pointed out, this is, uh, quite a bit of unfinished business.
[48:30.420 --> 48:33.040]  Three months late, but, uh, better late than never.
[48:33.380 --> 48:35.240]  Where, where is Arseny, by the way?
[48:37.180 --> 48:42.480]  Uh, before I start, I just very much want to thank Arseny for setting this up.
[48:42.600 --> 48:45.020]  I got an email from him out of the blue.
[48:45.240 --> 48:52.520]  He said, uh, I understand that, uh, no idea who he was, didn't have any affiliation with 2600 that I knew of.
[48:52.880 --> 48:53.260]  Wow.
[48:53.260 --> 48:55.160]  He sent, uh, an email to me.
[48:55.240 --> 48:57.720]  I think I was actually in, in the Far East at the time.
[48:58.640 --> 49:12.320]  And, uh, uh, uh, it said something along the lines of, my name is Arseny Lebedev and I would like you to come to, uh, uh, Stevens Institute of Technology and give this speech.
[49:13.120 --> 49:14.860]  And we emailed back and forth.
[49:15.080 --> 49:20.620]  And, uh, first of all, I didn't believe that somebody with the name Arseny Lebedev existed.
[49:21.680 --> 49:25.780]  And, and, and basically he just kept saying, come to Stevens on the, on the 16th.
[49:25.900 --> 49:26.820]  Everything will be fine.
[49:26.980 --> 49:28.480]  And, you know, can you make it?
[49:28.560 --> 49:29.660]  How big a room do you need?
[49:29.860 --> 49:33.680]  And I'm thinking like, yeah, sure, Borat, I'm gonna fall for this.
[49:34.400 --> 49:42.240]  You know, I, I, I expected to come here and find a guy in a, in a shiny gold thong with a wrestling bear or something.
[49:42.560 --> 49:43.520]  But, uh...
[49:43.520 --> 49:44.340]  That's tomorrow.
[49:44.420 --> 49:45.400]  That's tomorrow.
[49:45.700 --> 49:47.520]  Come back after 12.
[49:48.060 --> 50:02.020]  Uh, the fact that, that this late in the game with crappy weather out of nowhere that we have a, a, a standing room only crowd is entirely, uh, due to arsony.
[50:02.280 --> 50:06.000]  So, give him money, buy him food, do something.
[50:10.050 --> 50:15.150]  Let me, uh, let me very quickly tell you what we're doing here today.
[50:16.190 --> 50:28.090]  Uh, this is normally part of an eight hour full day course, which is half a day computer aided investigation and half a day foreign investigation.
[50:28.090 --> 50:49.210]  The computer aided investigation portion, which we've modified into a privacy seminar, uh, for 2600, uh, is, is essentially designed to teach investigators law enforcement, uh, people with a genuine need to know how to track people down and find things out about them,
[50:49.390 --> 50:51.670]  how to do it before they go out in the field.
[50:52.310 --> 51:02.190]  Computer aided investigation and database, uh, uh, access is now an essential part of any investigator or law enforcement officers toolkit.
[51:02.790 --> 51:11.470]  And then in the afternoon, we move on to the foreign investigation portion of it, where we cover what to do if they have to go out of the country.
[51:13.170 --> 51:19.610]  Over the years, working with 2600, we've put together a speech.
[51:19.610 --> 51:24.790]  And, and we've realized that privacy is, in fact, the mirror image of, of database investigation.
[51:25.190 --> 51:28.570]  You can't talk about access to people's personal information.
[51:28.870 --> 51:35.530]  And you can't talk about who can access it without discussing what's out there and who should be able to access it.
[51:39.630 --> 51:47.490]  As part of the seminar that I was supposed to give 90 days ago and that I'm giving tonight, we asked for a volunteer.
[51:47.750 --> 51:48.610]  We asked for a victim.
[51:48.870 --> 51:57.410]  Somebody to call in or write in and allow us to essentially invade his privacy, find out everything we could about him.
[51:58.050 --> 52:01.330]  And we got a number of, uh, a number of volunteers.
[52:01.350 --> 52:08.410]  Most of them were people who were either too young or too nice to have any sort of history.
[52:10.230 --> 52:13.630]  Thank goodness, uh, a guy by the name of Rick Dakin volunteered.
[52:13.870 --> 52:18.310]  Now, Rick is, uh, very active in the online community.
[52:18.310 --> 52:19.310]  He's also a writer.
[52:19.430 --> 52:21.090]  He most recently wrote Geek Mafia.
[52:21.310 --> 52:22.710]  He's a pretty remarkable guy.
[52:22.870 --> 52:25.370]  And there's a ton of stuff about Rick.
[52:25.470 --> 52:33.950]  And Rick is a very colorful guy, so not, not all of it is, is, uh, just simple, where does he live and where does he work stuff, as you'll, as you'll see.
[52:36.490 --> 52:45.490]  Because of Rick's cooperation, we were able to put together a program, which you'll see in a second, that allows us to talk about what's out there in private hands.
[52:46.050 --> 52:51.570]  Proprietary databases, corporate databases, credit bureaus, non-governmental databases.
[52:52.470 --> 53:05.270]  Let me just dismiss governmental databases today by saying, everything that you see us do here today, the government has 50 times as much, and they have access to everything that you're going to be seeing today.
[53:06.550 --> 53:22.470]  We're not going to talk about NCIC, FinCEN, which is where all your financial history is, TEX, TEX2, any of the incarnations of the databases used by what used to be Treasury, what's now Homeland Security, that sort of thing.
[53:22.610 --> 53:23.850]  We're not going to talk about that.
[53:23.850 --> 53:32.730]  We're going to talk about stuff that a skilled private investigator or a governmental investigator with access to private databases can access.
[53:35.310 --> 53:41.910]  What we're also not going to do today is... what I'm not going to do today is have a point of view.
[53:42.410 --> 53:46.710]  I'm going to lay this out for you in as neutral a manner as possible.
[53:46.710 --> 53:56.730]  Now, granted, seven FBI agents in raid jackets coming in the first time I tried to give this speech has sort of skewed my opinion somewhat.
[53:57.490 --> 54:12.430]  But still, I am not convinced that on one hand, all the databases need to be closed, or on the other hand, all the databases need to be open to the world.
[54:12.430 --> 54:17.350]  I mean, there are legitimate reasons for access, and we're going to be talking about that.
[54:17.510 --> 54:25.350]  So, as I say in all the talks I give, I'm not going to tell you what to think, but I am going to try to tell you what to think about.
[54:27.870 --> 54:32.490]  Database collection has been around forever since the days of the Bible.
[54:32.670 --> 54:33.590]  People have been counted.
[54:33.950 --> 54:35.390]  People have been pigeonholed.
[54:35.530 --> 54:37.290]  People have been categorized.
[54:37.290 --> 54:40.410]  Here's what's different in the past ten years.
[54:40.850 --> 54:43.250]  First of all, computing power and speed.
[54:44.250 --> 54:54.610]  I have now, in my office, more data and more data storage space than the FBI computers had ten years ago.
[54:55.730 --> 55:02.590]  Storage space, you can go now to a store and get a 750 gig drive for, what, about 300 bucks.
[55:02.590 --> 55:16.450]  You can set up an array of computers that will process whatever data you gather so quickly that ten years ago you would have had to use literally a Cray supercomputer to do the equivalent amount of computing.
[55:19.850 --> 55:23.570]  Everything, everything is now in digital format.
[55:23.830 --> 55:34.870]  Everything you do when you fill out an application, when you buy an item, when you make a telephone call, when you go through an easy pass lane or use a metro card.
[55:35.230 --> 55:46.830]  Everything is already in digital format, which means taking it, putting it in a database, analyzing it and indexing it never has to be touched by human hands.
[55:47.810 --> 55:54.510]  You, today, not some third party typing in front of a terminal, you are contributing all the data about you.
[55:56.490 --> 55:58.750]  OCR, optical character recognition.
[55:59.710 --> 56:08.130]  Even the old data, the stuff that's on paper forms, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, is being OCR'd at the speed of light.
[56:08.130 --> 56:10.110]  And it's being sucked into databases.
[56:10.830 --> 56:11.930]  And why?
[56:12.310 --> 56:14.110]  Because data is worth money.
[56:14.870 --> 56:20.710]  You access a database, you typically pay a substantial flat rate to access that database.
[56:20.710 --> 56:22.290]  It can be thousands of dollars a month.
[56:22.430 --> 56:23.970]  Or you pay per search.
[56:24.230 --> 56:32.390]  And the more hits the user gets, the more money the database provider gets, and the happier they are.
[56:32.390 --> 56:36.310]  So they're gonna keep sucking in info, so you'll pay for access to it.
[56:39.780 --> 56:50.460]  People are also willingly, and we're gonna talk about this in great detail tonight, people are also willingly contributing enormous amounts of personal data about themselves.
[56:50.700 --> 56:53.660]  And when I say personal, I don't mean their address and phone number.
[56:53.860 --> 56:55.700]  I mean ridiculously personal things.
[56:55.920 --> 57:07.020]  You go to MySpace pages, people talk about drug use, sexual activity, religion, you know, sexual orientation, politics, things they won't tell their own family.
[57:07.580 --> 57:12.160]  Anybody who accesses their MySpace page is gonna be able to determine immediately.
[57:12.360 --> 57:16.200]  And by the way, all of that data, there are bots right now.
[57:16.580 --> 57:26.680]  My bots, other people's bots, running through MySpace, running through Friendster, running through Bebo and everything else, sucking down that information and categorizing it.
[57:27.560 --> 57:28.440]  Friendster, Steve?
[57:29.100 --> 57:36.860]  Well, I mean, if you... except for the mention of MySpace and Friendster, I think that's still a pretty accurate description.
[57:37.120 --> 57:44.160]  Yeah, we were all talking during this excerpt from 2006 about how it still applies today.
[57:44.160 --> 57:48.520]  It's still very much up to date, but obviously you've given talks since then.
[57:48.600 --> 57:52.800]  And we're also including with this package where you certainly give more information.
[57:52.800 --> 58:04.420]  And if you call 516-620-3602, pledge of $125, you'll get all of those talks, plus the audio drive that you can use to surreptitiously record your surroundings.
[58:04.820 --> 58:09.600]  And you'll also get a spoof card where you can hide your identity on the telephone.
[58:09.600 --> 58:14.820]  You can not only block your number, you can send a different number, so people think you're calling from someplace else.
[58:14.820 --> 58:20.580]  And you can disguise your voice and make it more high-pitched or low-pitched or just completely unidentifiable.
[58:20.740 --> 58:22.600]  516-620-3602.
[58:22.720 --> 58:27.020]  I want to thank Sasha from New York for calling in and pledging.
[58:27.600 --> 58:30.620]  There's other people, too, that are calling in.
[58:30.660 --> 58:34.580]  I have to keep track of the email account that keeps updating.
[58:35.720 --> 58:40.260]  But, wow, we're all just riveted to the radio listening to that talk.
[58:41.840 --> 58:44.600]  That was a three-hour talk, wasn't it, Steve, at Stevens Institute?
[58:45.580 --> 58:54.740]  It actually had an extended Q&A.
[58:54.860 --> 59:00.680]  I think we were basically there until security came in and ran out 1,200 people.
[59:00.680 --> 59:01.680]  Well, they had some questions, too.
[59:02.220 --> 59:05.560]  They asked their questions, and then, yeah, we all had to go on.
[59:05.560 --> 59:09.280]  Yeah, their question was, why do you have 400 more people here than you should?
[59:09.280 --> 59:10.480]  And the answer was, get out.
[59:12.280 --> 59:14.700]  Well, that's three DVDs right there for that one talk.
[59:14.760 --> 59:17.320]  And then, of course, there was the talk that you missed at Hope No.
[59:17.400 --> 59:19.080]  6 because you were being dragged away in cuffs.
[59:19.160 --> 59:22.800]  Well, you weren't really being dragged away in cuffs, but you were being led away against your wishes.
[59:23.120 --> 59:25.060]  And you weren't able to give that particular talk.
[59:25.140 --> 59:28.360]  So that was rather entertaining, having to explain that to 1,000 people.
[59:28.820 --> 59:35.580]  And we also have talks from Beyond Hope, H2K, H2K2, The Fifth Hope, The Last Hope, The Next Hope, and also Hope No.
[59:35.660 --> 59:35.840]  9.
[59:36.440 --> 59:38.520]  How come you didn't have the first hope I was at?
[59:38.520 --> 59:39.500]  You know, I don't even remember.
[59:39.540 --> 59:40.620]  I can barely remember the conference.
[59:40.760 --> 59:42.320]  I was called up and sat on a panel.
[59:42.480 --> 59:42.740]  Uh-huh.
[59:43.020 --> 59:44.100]  I have no memory of that.
[59:44.200 --> 59:46.200]  We do have The First Hope, 1994.
[59:46.340 --> 59:49.020]  We have a bunch of talks, but we don't have you for some reason.
[59:49.020 --> 59:55.240]  There was some little Looney Tune by the name of Mordechai that was there.
[59:55.500 --> 59:56.340]  Mordechai Levy.
[59:56.480 --> 59:57.160]  I remember him, yes.
[59:57.160 --> 01:00:01.460]  That when he saw me up there, he went squealing out of there.
[01:00:01.560 --> 01:00:01.800]  Uh-huh.
[01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:08.620]  And ever since then, he has had a deranged dislike of me.
[01:00:08.620 --> 01:00:11.800]  Well, yeah, J-D-O, J-D-L, one of those organizations.
[01:00:12.040 --> 01:00:12.720]  I don't know.
[01:00:12.720 --> 01:00:14.380]  There was a whole big thing going on.
[01:00:14.560 --> 01:00:16.900]  W-A-C-K-O, A-U-T.
[01:00:17.160 --> 01:00:19.580]  There were articles in the Village Voice and all kinds of newspapers.
[01:00:19.980 --> 01:00:20.380]  Oh, what a banana.
[01:00:20.380 --> 01:00:20.660]  It was.
[01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:23.100]  Yeah, but we love them all.
[01:00:24.140 --> 01:00:24.500]  Yeah.
[01:00:25.100 --> 01:00:31.660]  But that was our first conference, and we had all kinds of people showing up from all over the world, and we still do, but it was just amazing that was our first one.
[01:00:31.660 --> 01:00:37.320]  Yeah, but fortunately, the bananas have sort of self-selected them out of the process.
[01:00:37.420 --> 01:00:40.640]  Well, they've ripened a bit, and some of them have rottened a bit as well.
[01:00:40.700 --> 01:00:40.900]  Yes.
[01:00:41.040 --> 01:00:45.740]  But there's always new bananas coming, unless we probably shouldn't talk about the attendees in that way.
[01:00:45.820 --> 01:00:48.880]  But there are all kinds of amazing people that we learn from.
[01:00:48.900 --> 01:01:03.480]  99.9% of the people that come to these conferences are pretty remarkable, unusually intelligent, ferociously inquisitive people, which frankly is why I show up.
[01:01:03.540 --> 01:01:11.660]  Because I've got to tell you, I walk out of a HOPE conference, and my IQ is temporarily for a few weeks about 20 points higher than it was when I walked in.
[01:01:11.800 --> 01:01:11.940]  Yeah.
[01:01:12.260 --> 01:01:21.480]  But I've got to tell you, there are a few of these death stars, these black holes, that come in and try to suck the life out of the conference.
[01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:30.860]  And I've got to tell you, it really is self-policed to the point where these people are usually gone by the first night, because they are shunned.
[01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:32.460]  The community self-corrects.
[01:01:32.640 --> 01:01:33.920]  It really does.
[01:01:33.940 --> 01:01:34.660]  It's a beautiful thing.
[01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:35.400]  It really does.
[01:01:35.600 --> 01:01:38.760]  Trolls in meat space are ejected also.
[01:01:39.100 --> 01:01:39.660]  Absolutely.
[01:01:40.080 --> 01:01:42.240]  And that's always been the way with the HOPE conferences.
[01:01:42.560 --> 01:01:46.060]  The audience, I think, is the best audience of any of the conferences.
[01:01:46.060 --> 01:01:46.940]  I've said this before.
[01:01:46.940 --> 01:01:59.980]  We've had some very controversial panels and discussions, but even people that we violently disagree with, we treat with respect, and we listen, and we ask questions, and we learn, and we bring that away with us.
[01:02:00.180 --> 01:02:05.520]  Jello Biafra, actually, if you remember, in 2006, mooned the FBI.
[01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:08.320]  So that was an interesting moment.
[01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:11.060]  I still have that image, yeah, burned into my retina.
[01:02:11.200 --> 01:02:13.840]  It's actually on Wikipedia, too, if you look up mooning, I think.
[01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:15.500]  And that made it to, really?
[01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:17.260]  It's the epitome of mooning.
[01:02:17.260 --> 01:02:18.740]  Well, you know what else made it to Wikipedia?
[01:02:19.040 --> 01:02:20.240]  Rombong Second law.
[01:02:20.680 --> 01:02:21.300]  Which is what?
[01:02:21.300 --> 01:02:24.000]  You know how I talk about Rombong's first law and Rombong Second law?
[01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:36.940]  Rombong Second law that all data will be used for unintended purposes will eventually be used for unintended purposes is now up there in Wikipedia, Rombong Second law.
[01:02:37.200 --> 01:02:37.420]  Okay.
[01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:38.480]  I have to ask, what's the first law?
[01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:45.160]  You got to attend the conference or get one of the DVDs.
[01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:53.160]  This is one of the two things that we're holding out for contributors, this and why there's no volcanoes in New Jersey.
[01:02:54.120 --> 01:02:55.360]  Just not letting go of that.
[01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:55.800]  Okay, right.
[01:02:55.800 --> 01:03:01.880]  And all this info and more can be yours with the listening device, with all the other goodies we have.
[01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:10.720]  If you call 516-620-3602, or if you're in the mysterious future, go to WBAI.org and some of these might be left over for you.
[01:03:10.820 --> 01:03:28.840]  If anybody, if anybody, now there's some bigger ticket items, and if anybody, I'll throw this in as a premium, if anybody purchases any of these bigger ticket items and uses the word volcano as their middle name, I will reveal over the air why there are no volcanoes in New Jersey.
[01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:33.640]  Well, that certainly is irresistible, as far as anyone would be calling in.
[01:03:33.820 --> 01:03:36.840]  But we are going to get to the bigger items, because there are some bigger items we want to mention.
[01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:38.400]  But let me just recap once more.
[01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:42.080]  For a pledge of $75, you'll get the digital audio flash drive.
[01:03:42.180 --> 01:03:46.920]  That's eight, not eight megabytes, eight gigabytes of storage.
[01:03:46.980 --> 01:03:51.280]  And that allows you to store a large number of hours of audio.
[01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:56.300]  So you have this basically USB thumb drive looking thing that just looks innocent enough.
[01:03:56.300 --> 01:03:57.700]  You can leave it on a table someplace.
[01:03:58.300 --> 01:04:04.160]  I imagine you can plug it into your computer and leave it there, and it'll record, assuming you tell it to do that, whatever happens around it.
[01:04:04.220 --> 01:04:09.960]  So if you think people are, say, at a board meeting, are conspiring against you, well, you can just leave your laptop there and come back.
[01:04:10.000 --> 01:04:10.800]  Oh, I left my laptop.
[01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:11.780]  Actually, you can't.
[01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:12.600]  That's wiretapping.
[01:04:13.520 --> 01:04:14.980]  Theoretically, you could, and you would be breaking the law.
[01:04:15.080 --> 01:04:15.260]  Yes.
[01:04:15.380 --> 01:04:16.080]  Okay, so don't do that.
[01:04:17.560 --> 01:04:27.880]  In the states where you can covertly record without notifying other parties, it's called one-party consent.
[01:04:28.080 --> 01:04:30.200]  And you are that one party.
[01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:35.080]  When I train investigators, I tell them, here's the rule, and it's almost exactly what you mentioned.
[01:04:35.080 --> 01:04:48.060]  If you go to a meeting with a briefcase, with a recorder inside, and there are 75 people in the room, as long as you're there with that briefcase, it's a legal recording in the state of New York.
[01:04:48.340 --> 01:04:48.500]  If you leave the room...
[01:04:48.500 --> 01:04:58.020]  But if they say, please go outside, Steve, while we discuss this, and you leave that briefcase there while you go out of the room, you have then committed a criminal offense.
[01:04:58.160 --> 01:05:01.200]  What if they force you to leave the room?
[01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:03.980]  You're not willingly committing an offense, but they're forcing you to.
[01:05:04.120 --> 01:05:07.040]  You have to say, wait, wait, I have to take the briefcase.
[01:05:07.240 --> 01:05:07.900]  There's a recorder in there.
[01:05:07.960 --> 01:05:08.540]  I see.
[01:05:08.680 --> 01:05:09.320]  Okay, interesting.
[01:05:09.520 --> 01:05:10.700]  The law is so fascinating.
[01:05:10.780 --> 01:05:11.220]  Isn't that, Alex?
[01:05:11.220 --> 01:05:12.900]  You're a lawyer, so you must be...
[01:05:12.900 --> 01:05:13.720]  You're a lawyer?
[01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:14.160]  Be dad?
[01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:14.580]  Yes, I am.
[01:05:14.580 --> 01:05:15.100]  Isn't that amazing?
[01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:17.420]  Get the forklift and get him out of here.
[01:05:18.500 --> 01:05:20.680]  But Steve does describe it exactly correctly, I think.
[01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:26.560]  Now, if you had another buddy in the room with you who stayed in the room, and he consented, well, then that might be a different story.
[01:05:27.180 --> 01:05:29.680]  Yeah, you could, like, pass a note to somebody and say...
[01:05:29.680 --> 01:05:31.540]  Oh, the backup wiretower.
[01:05:31.580 --> 01:05:33.420]  I'm not advocating lawlessness or anything.
[01:05:33.620 --> 01:05:35.160]  I'm just trying to figure out how to accomplish it.
[01:05:35.380 --> 01:05:35.680]  Absolutely.
[01:05:36.080 --> 01:05:38.980]  Okay, so the phone number is 516-620-3602.
[01:05:39.080 --> 01:05:39.580]  That could be you.
[01:05:39.600 --> 01:05:44.360]  You could have that digital audio flash drive that you can leave wherever you want and record all kinds of things.
[01:05:44.500 --> 01:05:52.800]  And in addition, you get the spoof card, which allows you to basically call up anybody, enter a phone number, and on their caller ID device, they will see that phone number instead of yours.
[01:05:53.040 --> 01:05:57.340]  And they might hear a different voice if you decide to use a spooky voice instead of your normal voice.
[01:05:58.300 --> 01:06:02.580]  That all comes to you for a pledge of $75, 516-620-3602.
[01:06:02.580 --> 01:06:16.200]  For a pledge of $125, you get all of that, plus over a dozen DVDs with Steve Rombaum on them over the years talking about privacy issues and what technology is developing, what governments are doing, things like that.
[01:06:16.260 --> 01:06:17.160]  Things you really need to know.
[01:06:17.340 --> 01:06:20.640]  We just played 2006, and we learned a lot from that.
[01:06:20.780 --> 01:06:24.040]  Imagine what you could learn from listening to 2012, which is also included.
[01:06:24.040 --> 01:06:40.940]  516-620-3602, those two levels, 75 and 125, the, what is it, the, hang on, I have it written down here, the digital audio flash drive plus DVD set is the 125, and the digital audio flash drive by itself is the 75 level.
[01:06:40.940 --> 01:06:43.180]  So, 516-620-3602.
[01:06:43.280 --> 01:06:48.800]  Now, let's mention what we have, a couple of interesting donations by Steve.
[01:06:49.120 --> 01:06:50.720]  Let me preface this.
[01:06:50.740 --> 01:06:51.440]  Yes, preface this.
[01:06:52.240 --> 01:07:03.080]  One of the most amusing things this evening is to watch these pledges come in and seeing that about 50% of them are from Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous Anonymous.
[01:07:03.720 --> 01:07:12.320]  I mean, obviously, they're giving their real credit card, but it's astounding how many of these people are from the very large and well-regarded Anonymous family.
[01:07:12.440 --> 01:07:14.260]  We want to thank Scott from Brooklyn, who is not anonymous.
[01:07:14.700 --> 01:07:15.820]  Thank you, Scott from Brooklyn.
[01:07:16.720 --> 01:07:34.840]  However, this next batch of pledges on my part, or this next batch of things that you can pledge to obtain, because they are of an investigative nature, you cannot be anonymous.
[01:07:35.740 --> 01:07:36.020]  Yes.
[01:07:36.020 --> 01:07:40.800]  I need to know who, essentially, the client is.
[01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:50.920]  I don't want, for example, somebody to be hiring me to locate somebody that has a restraining order against them, or something like that.
[01:07:50.960 --> 01:08:11.380]  And I will tell you, we did this last year, and I will tell you that as a warm-up, for example, we located somebody's girlfriend, an old fella who had gotten divorced, and he kept thinking about his high school sweetheart, a lost love from 42 years ago,
[01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:12.540]  and I found her for him.
[01:08:12.640 --> 01:08:12.920]  Wow.
[01:08:13.120 --> 01:08:14.280]  And of course, she shot him.
[01:08:14.360 --> 01:08:14.920]  No, I'm kidding.
[01:08:15.080 --> 01:08:15.900]  I'm kidding.
[01:08:16.020 --> 01:08:17.860]  But I reunited them.
[01:08:18.580 --> 01:08:27.840]  Bernie, who's on the line, I found a radioactive person with a picture of his face half melted off.
[01:08:28.020 --> 01:08:29.700]  He said, can you find this person?
[01:08:29.880 --> 01:08:39.980]  And little did I know when I started the investigation that this was somebody, and this is not a joke, listeners, who had built a nuclear reactor in his backyard.
[01:08:42.060 --> 01:08:43.940]  So, Bernie, you've got to tell me these things.
[01:08:44.060 --> 01:08:45.920]  Bernie, you need help finding somebody like that?
[01:08:46.080 --> 01:08:47.140]  You think they'd be all over the news.
[01:08:47.260 --> 01:08:51.420]  We were trying to get him to come, also known as a nuclear, the radioactive boy scout.
[01:08:51.540 --> 01:08:52.780]  We were going to try to get him to come...
[01:08:52.780 --> 01:08:54.140]  It's the radioactive boy scout.
[01:08:54.220 --> 01:08:54.980]  I forgot about that.
[01:08:55.140 --> 01:09:02.540]  He built the nuclear reactor as his Eagle Scout project, which I'm going to tell you, this is a weird frickin' country sometimes.
[01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:05.080]  It is, and a weird community of people that we have here.
[01:09:05.080 --> 01:09:10.920]  And I want to thank Claude from Chester, New Jersey, for his generous donation.
[01:09:11.160 --> 01:09:11.440]  Thank you, Claude.
[01:09:11.460 --> 01:09:12.100]  You're a good guy.
[01:09:12.200 --> 01:09:12.420]  Yeah.
[01:09:12.600 --> 01:09:24.080]  Now, what we're offering here now for a pledge of $500, and before you faint dead away and say, wow, that's a lot of money, consider that what we are offering here is worth nearly $2,000 because...
[01:09:24.080 --> 01:09:24.600]  $1,750.
[01:09:25.240 --> 01:09:25.960]  Yeah, $1,750.
[01:09:25.960 --> 01:09:28.120]  What do you generally charge per hour for your services?
[01:09:28.280 --> 01:09:28.300]  Well, no, no, no.
[01:09:28.420 --> 01:09:38.460]  Our stated rate is $250 an hour, our discounted rate, and that's for people who give us more, have given us more than one case, is $1.75 an hour plus expenses.
[01:09:38.700 --> 01:09:38.900]  Okay.
[01:09:39.080 --> 01:09:41.780]  We're waiving the expenses within reason.
[01:09:42.400 --> 01:09:43.100]  I mean, if I need...
[01:09:43.100 --> 01:09:44.100]  So it's really worth $2,500.
[01:09:44.160 --> 01:09:47.760]  If I need to go to Botswana, we're going to chat.
[01:09:47.960 --> 01:09:48.200]  Uh-huh.
[01:09:48.340 --> 01:09:58.820]  But this will buy up to 10 hours of my time for any legally permissible investigation.
[01:09:59.400 --> 01:10:08.240]  Um, it needs to be something that is not, I'll tell you frankly, it needs to be something that is not outrageous or repulsive.
[01:10:08.600 --> 01:10:12.380]  Uh, it needs to be something that does not constitute harassment.
[01:10:12.420 --> 01:10:19.040]  But, you know, typically the 2,600 listeners and participants are pretty darn smart.
[01:10:19.300 --> 01:10:23.520]  I think you can, you can guess what's an acceptable investigation and what isn't.
[01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:28.460]  Um, if you are a victim of a fraud, I'm happy to help you.
[01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:31.800]  And I'll probably throw in a few extra hours if you are a victim.
[01:10:32.140 --> 01:10:44.160]  If you are looking for a missing person, a birth child, a birth parent, uh, I mean, it would take the whole show to detail what is a legitimate, acceptable investigation.
[01:10:44.620 --> 01:10:47.220]  You found war criminals who are trying to hide.
[01:10:47.220 --> 01:10:52.900]  Yes, if you have a particular war criminal you would like located, feel free to make a pledge.
[01:10:53.560 --> 01:10:54.560]  Uh, as long as...
[01:10:54.560 --> 01:10:56.400]  If you are a war criminal, Steve will not help you.
[01:10:56.500 --> 01:10:59.860]  No, if you are a war criminal, I'm happy to locate you for $500.
[01:11:00.280 --> 01:11:02.180]  Right, okay, yeah, that's true.
[01:11:02.240 --> 01:11:06.140]  As long as I don't have to go to Bosnia or Rwanda or Guatemala.
[01:11:06.380 --> 01:11:11.680]  I just want to point out that people are not going to get anything remotely like this for, for that kind of cost.
[01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:19.700]  And probably they would have to spend many times more to get anything even remotely similar to your services, which, and I have to say personally, you have saved my ass a few times.
[01:11:20.080 --> 01:11:20.480]  Well...
[01:11:20.480 --> 01:11:22.000]  And I, I, I gotta thank you for that because...
[01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:23.320]  Let's not admit that publicly.
[01:11:23.400 --> 01:11:31.400]  Well, okay, but, uh, there are lots of things that happen to everybody and you need somebody like Steve to step in and find out what's really going on.
[01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:39.780]  All kidding, all kidding aside, let me just say to the listener, because I really do want them to understand they are getting something of value and not a joke.
[01:11:39.780 --> 01:11:42.820]  I've been an investigator, I'm starting my 30th year as an investigator.
[01:11:42.820 --> 01:11:45.860]  I am a licensed, bonded, insured investigator.
[01:11:46.380 --> 01:11:52.500]  I'm the vice president of a very sizable investigative association, highly regarded association.
[01:11:52.980 --> 01:11:55.160]  I'm on the advisory board of others.
[01:11:55.480 --> 01:12:02.620]  For those of you who know what this is, I'm a CFE and a CPP and a CSAR and a CFCS.
[01:12:03.780 --> 01:12:11.680]  I actually do know what I'm doing and I'm, I'm, you know, not to be egotistical about it, but I'm in demand.
[01:12:12.140 --> 01:12:19.720]  Um, and you will be getting something of considerably greater value than the cost of your pledge.
[01:12:20.300 --> 01:12:31.620]  Um, and, and, uh, despite what you see on TV where these things take months and months and months, I have to tell you, most investigations take about 10 hours.
[01:12:31.820 --> 01:12:35.320]  We, we, we didn't pull that, that, uh, figure out of thin air.
[01:12:35.800 --> 01:12:53.700]  Um, that is, uh, look, obviously if you have a ridiculously complicated investigation, call me separately from this, but, but for, for the vast majority of investigative activity out there, this is more than enough to close the case.
[01:12:53.700 --> 01:12:55.420]  So that's a $500 pledge.
[01:12:55.720 --> 01:12:58.320]  Phone number is 516-620-3602.
[01:12:58.400 --> 01:12:59.660]  The way this works, we only have four of these.
[01:12:59.820 --> 01:13:04.480]  So once the four are taken, we, we can't offer any more because Steve does have to, uh, you know, pay his own bills.
[01:13:04.700 --> 01:13:06.020]  I, and I have a life.
[01:13:06.160 --> 01:13:06.360]  Uh-huh.
[01:13:06.480 --> 01:13:06.840]  Absolutely.
[01:13:07.380 --> 01:13:20.480]  Uh, so, uh, once you, uh, fulfill the pledge and either use your credit card or, or, or send us a check, whatever, once the, the pledge is labeled as paid, uh, then, uh, I believe Steve, you will contact them or we will give you a way of contacting Steve.
[01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:22.820]  No, you will, you will tell me as you did last time.
[01:13:22.900 --> 01:13:23.040]  Yes.
[01:13:23.040 --> 01:13:28.480]  You will give me the list of names of the people who actually paid their pledge.
[01:13:28.940 --> 01:13:33.180]  Uh, and those people will be welcome to contact me.
[01:13:33.580 --> 01:13:33.800]  Okay.
[01:13:34.280 --> 01:13:34.740]  516.
[01:13:35.100 --> 01:13:36.340]  And by the way, I'm not hard to find.
[01:13:36.340 --> 01:13:37.020]  I have a website.
[01:13:37.820 --> 01:13:40.020]  516-620-3602.
[01:13:40.360 --> 01:13:41.200]  It's an amazing deal.
[01:13:41.340 --> 01:13:44.680]  $500, 10 hours of one of the best privatized time.
[01:13:44.940 --> 01:13:48.420]  Uh, and, uh, everybody has something they need to find out.
[01:13:48.580 --> 01:13:53.500]  Some secret from the past or somebody they're trying to locate or just a mystery they're trying to clear up.
[01:13:53.600 --> 01:13:54.900]  And Steve's the guy that can do that.
[01:13:55.060 --> 01:13:56.940]  And in 10 hours, there's quite a lot you can do.
[01:13:57.200 --> 01:14:00.980]  I will add four years ago, I actually was asked to help somebody disappear.
[01:14:01.500 --> 01:14:11.700]  So if you would like to be unfound, um, and, and you're not a fugitive from something, uh, this is probably a good investment of your money also.
[01:14:12.040 --> 01:14:12.620]  All right.
[01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:19.820]  So, uh, yeah, I, I, I love to see people take advantage of that because, uh, they certainly will, uh, get what they pay for and more.
[01:14:20.200 --> 01:14:22.920]  They'll certainly learn whatever it is they're trying to find out.
[01:14:23.640 --> 01:14:26.880]  Um, yeah, 516-620-3602.
[01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:35.980]  In addition to the 75 and 125 level that we already, uh, are offering, uh, with the, uh, audio thumb drives and spoof cards and DVD packages.
[01:14:36.160 --> 01:14:39.380]  But this is really the, the most amazing one, I think.
[01:14:39.700 --> 01:14:42.300]  $500 pledge, 10 hours of a privatized time.
[01:14:43.220 --> 01:14:45.040]  516-620-3602.
[01:14:45.140 --> 01:14:51.480]  And there is, there is something else that we'll be offering just a little while, but it's, it's only one and it's, it's, it's even bigger than this.
[01:14:51.900 --> 01:14:55.480]  Uh, so, but, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll get to that in just a moment.
[01:14:55.560 --> 01:15:00.360]  I did want to talk more about, uh, some of the developments going on with, uh, technology and surveillance.
[01:15:00.500 --> 01:15:10.840]  First of all, the, we've been talking about the Boston Marathon bombing, uh, quite a bit on this show and how that has sort of made people embrace, uh, surveillance more and more.
[01:15:11.080 --> 01:15:15.340]  Uh, and, um, and we were wondering, where do you see that going?
[01:15:15.460 --> 01:15:21.120]  You see more government surveillance, you see more private surveillance, more people just capturing everything on their phones.
[01:15:21.440 --> 01:15:28.720]  Do you think it's a healthy thing when people are asking governments for more cameras and more ways to track people down quickly in such situations?
[01:15:29.380 --> 01:15:32.880]  You know, what a, what a perfect question.
[01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:37.700]  Uh, you could not have cued this, teed this up any better.
[01:15:37.940 --> 01:15:46.780]  Uh, I want to tell you, there's two things that the Boston Marathon tell any sensible person with any technical knowledge.
[01:15:46.960 --> 01:15:55.160]  Number one, there is no amount of surveillance technology that will prevent the terrorist attack.
[01:15:55.800 --> 01:15:57.920]  Uh, these guys were known.
[01:15:57.920 --> 01:16:00.680]  Uh, they were on semi-watch lists.
[01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:05.500]  Uh, you need to look at who these people were.
[01:16:06.340 --> 01:16:10.120]  Uh, their photos were in driver license databases.
[01:16:10.380 --> 01:16:21.520]  In fact, in the first driver's license database in the country to use biometric identifiers and facial recognition, Massachusetts, their photos were in U.S.
[01:16:21.680 --> 01:16:23.640]  government homeland security files.
[01:16:23.860 --> 01:16:30.240]  Both of them had applied for citizenship and submitted photos and fingerprints, by the way.
[01:16:30.720 --> 01:16:34.520]  Their photos were in school databases.
[01:16:34.680 --> 01:16:39.160]  Their photos were in a hundred places on the internet.
[01:16:39.400 --> 01:16:51.500]  And by the way, if you think that law enforcement agencies don't suck down both, both with consent and without consent, every photo that goes up on the net, I have to tell you, I know different.
[01:16:51.880 --> 01:17:11.420]  And despite all of this and all of the photos out there, uh, uh, and the photos that were put out there because of the stupidity that was briefly taking place on Reddit, um, which, which forced the FBI to release these photos, um, these people were not identified.
[01:17:11.900 --> 01:17:19.080]  So point number one, nothing could have prevented this bombing.
[01:17:19.340 --> 01:17:19.880]  Nothing.
[01:17:20.480 --> 01:17:37.600]  Point number two, there is nothing that the FBI or the NYPD have done in the past 12 years since 9-11 that will stop a terrorist.
[01:17:38.700 --> 01:17:39.200]  Nothing.
[01:17:39.540 --> 01:17:49.160]  Now, if it's a knuckleheaded terrorist, like these poor schmoes that go on the internet and say, I'd like to be a jihadi, can anyone help me?
[01:17:49.300 --> 01:17:51.040]  Those are all the people who are being arrested.
[01:17:51.400 --> 01:18:11.420]  When you have people like the Tsarnaevs, Tsarnaevs, who go on the internet themselves, are actually higher level morons in that they can download the bombing manuals and that keep things to themselves, nothing can stop them.
[01:18:12.260 --> 01:18:15.680]  Point number three, facial recognition is bullshit.
[01:18:17.160 --> 01:18:21.500]  Um, did you just hit the bleep button?
[01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:22.720]  Okay.
[01:18:23.140 --> 01:18:31.900]  Facial recognition is not as robust as it's claimed to be.
[01:18:32.040 --> 01:18:43.780]  Now, unfortunately, the FBI is now running all over the place with that and saying, if only we had had a better biometric database, we could have identified these people sooner.
[01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:44.880]  Okay, great.
[01:18:45.120 --> 01:18:48.840]  So you would have known 12 hours sooner who the bombers were.
[01:18:49.820 --> 01:18:51.260]  How would that have helped?
[01:18:52.140 --> 01:18:54.420]  The, the, the barn door was open.
[01:18:54.540 --> 01:18:55.420]  The people were dead.
[01:18:56.620 --> 01:18:58.320]  People's legs were blown off.
[01:18:58.620 --> 01:19:02.000]  Eight year old kids were, were, were, were murdered.
[01:19:02.320 --> 01:19:03.920]  It would not have helped.
[01:19:04.680 --> 01:19:16.100]  Uh, if you properly analyze this event, you'll understand that all of the things that we are being told are substantially false.
[01:19:17.100 --> 01:19:21.780]  You know, and Steven, to, to go back to your, your point one, that these things are not preventable.
[01:19:21.940 --> 01:19:27.920]  I think let's not also forget what happened in London recently with the hacking to death of Lee Rigby.
[01:19:28.240 --> 01:19:32.700]  And those two, uh, attackers, they were also on watch lists, government watch lists.
[01:19:32.820 --> 01:19:38.280]  These Nigerians were being watched and surveillance did not deter or detect these lone wolves.
[01:19:38.440 --> 01:19:53.820]  And I've actually seen some very interesting and some cogent argumentation coming from the British press about why governments should not overreact to these incidents and, and why they shouldn't overreach when it comes to data acquisition.
[01:19:54.000 --> 01:20:05.260]  And when it comes to surveillance, in fact, in the financial times this weekend, there were some really, really great articles about the fact that lone wolf terrorist actions are not preventable by surveillance.
[01:20:05.320 --> 01:20:22.100]  And the government trying to overreach right now and trying to use these instances as excuses to obtain more surveillance powers is absolutely unjust because the government knows that greater surveillance will not deter and, or detect a lone wolf attack.
[01:20:22.260 --> 01:20:27.360]  So why do they need more powers to defend against something which they know it wouldn't defend against in the first place?
[01:20:27.520 --> 01:20:31.520]  I mean, it's a very circular type, but very kind of cogent argument at the same time.
[01:20:31.660 --> 01:20:36.480]  And I thought it was very interesting that, that this kind of argumentation was coming from a paper like the Financial Times.
[01:20:36.520 --> 01:20:41.200]  I think it's very, very interesting, and I think it's something we should learn from here in the States.
[01:20:41.360 --> 01:20:49.500]  You know, there are two things, there are two things that make your point even stronger.
[01:20:49.800 --> 01:20:53.880]  Number one, this was not a lone wolf attack in London.
[01:20:54.200 --> 01:20:56.960]  They've now arrested 10 co-conspirators.
[01:20:57.160 --> 01:21:01.380]  This was actually an organized cell, and it still didn't help.
[01:21:01.760 --> 01:21:12.700]  And second of all, there is no country, in the world, with the exception of China, that deploys as much surveillance equipment as London.
[01:21:13.300 --> 01:21:23.640]  Five years ago, when they last released the count, there were 4.2 million, what they call public security cameras.
[01:21:24.140 --> 01:21:26.480]  4.2 million.
[01:21:26.820 --> 01:21:30.160]  I mean, this is Ray Kelly's wet dream.
[01:21:30.160 --> 01:21:31.440]  It really is.
[01:21:32.780 --> 01:21:34.080]  I can say that, right?
[01:21:34.400 --> 01:21:34.700]  Okay.
[01:21:35.140 --> 01:21:39.160]  I think I got bleeped before, and I apologize to the listeners.
[01:21:39.480 --> 01:21:39.860]  Hey, Steve.
[01:21:40.700 --> 01:21:41.540]  Yeah, Bernie?
[01:21:41.740 --> 01:21:42.980]  Yeah, I just want to ask you a quick question.
[01:21:43.040 --> 01:21:49.540]  We grapple with this dilemma frequently and off the hook, at least over the past few weeks.
[01:21:50.000 --> 01:22:03.100]  How do you convince people that government officials' arguments that more electronic surveillance will make them safer is not true?
[01:22:03.260 --> 01:22:16.140]  I mean, aside from the fact that it's horrible and tragic that Boston bombing was, the number of people that were hurt and killed in that is probably the same number of people that were hurt and killed in every state of the union every day in automobile accidents.
[01:22:16.760 --> 01:22:23.900]  Risk assessment aside, how do you convince people that all these arguments for all this additional electronic surveillance doesn't make them safer?
[01:22:24.080 --> 01:22:29.360]  Well, look, first of all, I'm not opposed to surveillance of the right people.
[01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:32.600]  I think they should surveil the heck out of the right people.
[01:22:32.900 --> 01:22:36.340]  But I don't think that they should cast the net on every American.
[01:22:36.540 --> 01:22:41.560]  And the best way you do that is through education and pointing out the obvious.
[01:22:42.080 --> 01:22:53.880]  If you go to Times Square, there is no more... there is no location in the United States that is more policed than Times Square, both with uniform and undercover agents.
[01:22:54.060 --> 01:23:08.300]  There is no location in the United States that has more cameras, more surveillance of every kind, including some stuff that I know about and I won't say on this show because it would be just wrong.
[01:23:10.280 --> 01:23:18.080]  I'll tell you, they even have radiation detectors, gas detectors, things you would not believe there.
[01:23:18.200 --> 01:23:23.100]  Every technology that's deployed by the city of New York is deployed there first.
[01:23:23.560 --> 01:23:29.860]  And one knucklehead with a van was able to pull up to Times Square and set off a bomb.
[01:23:30.080 --> 01:23:38.180]  Thank goodness he was as incompetent as the rest of most of these terrorists until the Tsarnaevs.
[01:23:38.360 --> 01:23:45.600]  And the bomb fizzled and a hot dog vendor waved over a cop and said, hey, officer, what's that smoke coming from the van?
[01:23:46.160 --> 01:23:52.700]  If that guy had known how to make a detonator, there would have been hundreds of people dead.
[01:23:52.960 --> 01:23:59.340]  That was a massive VBIED, vehicle-borne improvised explosive device.
[01:23:59.500 --> 01:24:02.380]  A big, big, big bomb.
[01:24:02.580 --> 01:24:05.160]  It would have shredded Times Square.
[01:24:05.380 --> 01:24:08.840]  It would have destroyed tourism in New York for a generation.
[01:24:09.540 --> 01:24:16.380]  We would have had checkpoints everywhere in Manhattan, which, frankly, I think is pretty much what we have now at Stop and Frisk.
[01:24:16.760 --> 01:24:31.500]  But if you point out to people who genuinely want to understand that all of these things that are deployed in Times Square were meaningless, well, there you go.
[01:24:31.500 --> 01:24:37.880]  Well, apropos of the carnage you've just described, Steve, I mean, I'd like to play devil's advocate here for a second.
[01:24:38.020 --> 01:24:39.720]  I mean, I just became a parent.
[01:24:40.260 --> 01:24:42.060]  And as another aside is digressions.
[01:24:42.060 --> 01:24:42.460]  Yes, congratulations.
[01:24:42.860 --> 01:24:45.720]  Since the last time you were on the radio, in fact, you've become a parent.
[01:24:45.920 --> 01:24:46.240]  Yes, indeed.
[01:24:46.420 --> 01:24:46.780]  A boy, girl.
[01:24:46.980 --> 01:24:47.640]  It's a boy.
[01:24:47.800 --> 01:24:49.540]  And as a matter of fact, he's 12 days old.
[01:24:49.540 --> 01:24:50.980]  And he also made a pledge.
[01:24:51.100 --> 01:24:53.720]  That pledge from Sasha was from my son.
[01:24:53.980 --> 01:24:55.100]  No, that was from my son.
[01:24:55.180 --> 01:24:55.840]  Your son?
[01:24:55.840 --> 01:24:56.140]  Indeed.
[01:24:56.140 --> 01:24:57.420]  12 days old is pledging?
[01:24:57.420 --> 01:24:57.840]  12 days old.
[01:24:57.960 --> 01:24:59.040]  Well, that should tell listeners.
[01:24:59.040 --> 01:24:59.380]  That's pretty amazing.
[01:24:59.720 --> 01:25:01.660]  Is this kid being grown in a test tube?
[01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:02.940]  He can already use computers?
[01:25:02.940 --> 01:25:04.240]  All right, listeners, you've heard it.
[01:25:04.320 --> 01:25:06.340]  12-day-olds can pledge.
[01:25:06.360 --> 01:25:07.040]  What's your excuse?
[01:25:07.380 --> 01:25:09.100]  516-620-3632.
[01:25:09.380 --> 01:25:11.360]  That's actually the anti-terror hope.
[01:25:11.900 --> 01:25:14.780]  I mean, these kids being grown in test tubes somewhere.
[01:25:14.940 --> 01:25:15.940]  Anyway, congratulations to you, Eric.
[01:25:15.940 --> 01:25:16.260]  Thank you.
[01:25:16.340 --> 01:25:16.860]  Thank you, gentlemen.
[01:25:17.080 --> 01:25:17.700]  I appreciate it.
[01:25:17.820 --> 01:25:18.160]  Thank you.
[01:25:18.280 --> 01:25:18.540]  Thank you.
[01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:26.320]  To go back to this carnage, though, I mean, let me play devil's advocate here for a second because, you know, sometimes surveillance of this sort will actually help us.
[01:25:26.420 --> 01:25:29.500]  It definitely can keep us safer in certain respects.
[01:25:29.680 --> 01:25:38.180]  I mean, sometimes it's completely ineffective, but intelligence agencies and governments will argue that they're able to thwart large-scale terrorist attacks at least once a year.
[01:25:38.380 --> 01:25:40.600]  Whether or not that's accurate remains to be seen.
[01:25:40.700 --> 01:25:42.540]  I don't know the data underlying it, but that's what I've heard.
[01:25:42.860 --> 01:25:50.040]  But to go back to Bernie's point, then, how do we convince these legislators and these governments that surveillance doesn't help?
[01:25:50.380 --> 01:25:52.880]  I think that raises another question, though.
[01:25:52.880 --> 01:25:55.000]  How do we convince them that it's harmful?
[01:25:55.360 --> 01:25:58.360]  And as of now, I think it's very, very difficult.
[01:25:58.360 --> 01:26:00.180]  And I think it's a philosophical question.
[01:26:00.420 --> 01:26:05.180]  How do we quantify the harm that surveillance causes to society?
[01:26:05.460 --> 01:26:07.560]  It's very, very difficult to get into court.
[01:26:07.660 --> 01:26:09.560]  It's very difficult from a standing perspective.
[01:26:10.020 --> 01:26:11.120]  It's subjective.
[01:26:11.120 --> 01:26:12.140]  It's amorphous.
[01:26:12.260 --> 01:26:27.300]  And going back to the 60s, the late 60s with the military monitoring of dissident groups post Martin Luther King assassination, it's been incredibly difficult to convince the courts that there is some justiciable harm that would allow them to act.
[01:26:27.500 --> 01:26:34.780]  And I think what Steve, and what we may have all stumbled upon here with this reporter incident, could be that exact harm.
[01:26:34.920 --> 01:26:36.480]  It really is.
[01:26:36.640 --> 01:26:37.460]  It really is.
[01:26:37.560 --> 01:26:38.900]  This is the tipping point.
[01:26:39.020 --> 01:26:53.460]  And I've got to tell you, the best, the person who is going to do the most for privacy this year is going to be the same guy who's done the most for firearms ownership.
[01:26:53.740 --> 01:26:55.580]  And that's President Obama.
[01:26:56.200 --> 01:27:01.100]  There are now millions more guns in citizens' hands.
[01:27:01.540 --> 01:27:06.920]  And there's going to be the same sort of backlash when it comes to privacy.
[01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:27.800]  And now all of the people who were basically sucking up to Obama because they felt that it was the right thing to do and the patriotic thing to do are realizing that this guy, you know, imagine the scene in the Mission Impossible movie where the guy reaches and peels off the Obama mask and there's Richard Nixon underneath.
[01:27:28.220 --> 01:27:31.100]  I mean, that's what you've pretty well got right now.
[01:27:31.520 --> 01:27:39.540]  Except Obama is smarter and more competent than Richard Nixon when it comes to invading privacy.
[01:27:39.800 --> 01:28:00.840]  I have to tell you that this event that that is going to be put together by the Fraternal Order of Investigators and by 2600 and by, I would be shocked if it's any less than 20 well-known journalists, television and whatnot, we've already got five huge guys signed up.
[01:28:00.940 --> 01:28:03.180]  Well, men and women, I shouldn't say guys.
[01:28:03.180 --> 01:28:06.420]  You don't mean massively obese people, you mean people who are...
[01:28:06.420 --> 01:28:10.720]  I mean significant journalists, people who are household names.
[01:28:12.980 --> 01:28:18.680]  I will tell you that this event... First of all, the problem is education.
[01:28:18.940 --> 01:28:24.960]  One reason why my talks are so popular at 2600 is not because I'm Frank Sinatra.
[01:28:25.200 --> 01:28:33.200]  It's because people are exposed for the first time to what is happening to them.
[01:28:33.340 --> 01:28:34.460]  People don't know.
[01:28:34.620 --> 01:28:35.700]  People don't understand.
[01:28:36.040 --> 01:28:40.420]  And I think that this is really educating people.
[01:28:40.600 --> 01:28:52.680]  People don't realize, oh my God, everywhere I am, everywhere I drive, everybody I talk to, every place I eat dinner, every book I read, all of this is in a database.
[01:28:52.680 --> 01:28:55.680]  And I really, really have a permanent record.
[01:28:55.880 --> 01:29:02.800]  If the FBI decides today I'm a bad guy, they can see where I was sitting to dinner two years ago.
[01:29:03.280 --> 01:29:04.400]  Holy moly.
[01:29:04.680 --> 01:29:06.180]  People don't realize this.
[01:29:06.340 --> 01:29:13.120]  And I have to say, folks, if you're listening to this and you're shaking your head and you're thinking, oh man, what hyperbole.
[01:29:13.240 --> 01:29:13.880]  This is ridiculous.
[01:29:14.360 --> 01:29:16.200]  I'm not exaggerating.
[01:29:16.200 --> 01:29:19.720]  And I'm going to tell you, it is much worse than that.
[01:29:19.800 --> 01:29:35.920]  And if you've ever been to one of my privacy is dead talks, or if you're an investigator or a law enforcement officer, and you've been to one of my privacy is dead, get over it and use it talks, you know that if anything, I'm dramatically understating the case.
[01:29:36.120 --> 01:29:39.640]  And this is a really important event that we're planning.
[01:29:39.820 --> 01:29:49.120]  And basically the discussion we're having is we want to get the real expertise, the heavy hitters, people that know what they're talking about that are out there in the community.
[01:29:49.320 --> 01:29:56.380]  If you're a journalist, if you're involved in the technology community, if you're a security expert, we want to reach out to you.
[01:29:56.440 --> 01:30:07.460]  We want to get all these great minds together and discuss it and open it up, have the discussion and talk about the tools because it's great if one person knows how to use it.
[01:30:07.540 --> 01:30:12.160]  It's great if one journalist is covering a story.
[01:30:12.280 --> 01:30:23.160]  But we need to we need to really just exponentially open it up and have a lot of this discussion flourish so that we can share and have tools and a little bit of cross pollination as it were.
[01:30:23.300 --> 01:30:25.520]  There's and there's got to be a level playing field.
[01:30:25.720 --> 01:30:30.440]  People have to know what's what people have to know what they're facing.
[01:30:30.640 --> 01:30:36.100]  I mean, frankly, the vast majority of Americans today are the numb and the dumb when it comes to this.
[01:30:36.240 --> 01:30:37.640]  They have no clue.
[01:30:38.180 --> 01:30:45.400]  And I think that once people start becoming aware of this, there's going to be there's going to be a groundswell.
[01:30:45.520 --> 01:30:51.640]  You know, about six weeks ago, I was on Dateline and we did a really ridiculous thing.
[01:30:51.780 --> 01:31:01.580]  We got this this undercover investigator, a guy who works with me, Ted Kavaris, and we dressed him up as a swami and we called him the great Kavaris and we put an earpiece in his ear.
[01:31:02.420 --> 01:31:05.380]  And Dateline recruited people from the street.
[01:31:05.560 --> 01:31:13.740]  And between the time they were recruited in the street and the time they got upstairs, we had a whole war room of investigators, six guys at computers.
[01:31:13.960 --> 01:31:18.860]  And between the time they they were recruited and got upstairs, we knew everything about them.
[01:31:19.160 --> 01:31:23.900]  And he sat there and he said, Do you have a tattoo Two on your left buttock.
[01:31:24.460 --> 01:31:26.720]  Do you work in lawn care?
[01:31:27.020 --> 01:31:31.380]  Do you, you know, is there a warrant out for you for failure to appear?
[01:31:31.500 --> 01:31:32.840]  In one case, there actually was.
[01:31:33.660 --> 01:31:36.420]  You know, people were freaking out.
[01:31:36.560 --> 01:31:45.620]  And then Natalie Morales would take the poor, you know, victim, privacy victim, and bring them into the war room and say, this is how we did it.
[01:31:45.620 --> 01:31:52.140]  And I want to tell you, I must have gotten 200 phone calls after that saying, I had no idea.
[01:31:52.440 --> 01:31:53.300]  It's amazing.
[01:31:53.440 --> 01:31:54.800]  I was actually at a family event.
[01:31:54.940 --> 01:31:59.760]  I was talking, as you do with family, about what do you do, what kinds of things are you interested in, what's going on.
[01:32:00.260 --> 01:32:01.440]  I hear this a lot.
[01:32:01.440 --> 01:32:03.120]  I'm sure you guys have heard it as well.
[01:32:03.240 --> 01:32:08.200]  But people often say, well, you know, I'm not that concerned because I'm not a big deal.
[01:32:08.200 --> 01:32:10.180]  I'm not... I'm small potatoes.
[01:32:10.360 --> 01:32:17.340]  But it's this concept of being able to roll the tape back on anybody, as you said, two years ago, five years ago.
[01:32:17.760 --> 01:32:18.620]  Hey, guess what?
[01:32:18.720 --> 01:32:21.680]  It instructs behavior because now we're interested in you.
[01:32:21.860 --> 01:32:26.400]  Now we think you're involved with whatever, dissident organization.
[01:32:26.640 --> 01:32:31.220]  Maybe they don't like what you're doing, your business activities or your religious beliefs, whatever it is.
[01:32:31.220 --> 01:32:32.060]  Guess what?
[01:32:32.220 --> 01:32:33.160]  We can roll it back.
[01:32:33.360 --> 01:32:37.300]  We didn't have to be listening to you, have a whole team focused like we do now.
[01:32:37.420 --> 01:32:39.380]  We've got it on tape, all that.
[01:32:39.680 --> 01:32:47.180]  Not only that, let me tell you, the opportunity for suppression of political thought is enormous now.
[01:32:48.400 --> 01:32:50.700]  I'm not a big fan of Occupy Wall Street.
[01:32:50.860 --> 01:32:53.820]  I think some of them were very good, very well-meaning people.
[01:32:53.820 --> 01:32:59.840]  But the vast majority of them that I saw down there were just goons.
[01:33:00.720 --> 01:33:06.320]  And having said that, nevertheless, I mean, you have a right to be a goon in this country.
[01:33:08.180 --> 01:33:18.300]  If I wanted to know every single person there, and the NYPD wanted to know every single person there, they just grabbed what's called a tower dump.
[01:33:18.300 --> 01:33:23.580]  And they got every cell phone, every email communication, everything from everybody there.
[01:33:23.700 --> 01:33:31.600]  And without photos and without arresting people and without interviewing people, they knew 90% of the people there after the first night.
[01:33:31.840 --> 01:33:33.580]  Yeah, just looking at the picture of the data.
[01:33:33.780 --> 01:33:41.940]  And that's why it's so key that people do what you do at your talks, what we try to do on the show and at the station and at Hope and 2600 and everything else.
[01:33:42.080 --> 01:33:48.000]  And that's get this information out there from the people that have it and from the people that know what they're talking about to the people that need to know.
[01:33:48.300 --> 01:33:52.560]  And in cases like this, it affects every single one of us, no matter how small potatoes you may be.
[01:33:53.020 --> 01:33:56.800]  These issues are out there and they can affect you and you should know what's going on.
[01:33:56.980 --> 01:34:04.200]  And keeping things like this going, keeping the information out there is what we have to do.
[01:34:04.200 --> 01:34:11.580]  So if you can help us keep this station on the air, keep the show on the air, call 516-620-3602.
[01:34:11.580 --> 01:34:15.120]  So we've got some very nice gifts to give you in return for your pledges.
[01:34:15.200 --> 01:34:18.140]  And go to WBAI.org to help out otherwise.
[01:34:18.380 --> 01:34:19.680]  I want to thank a couple of Roberts.
[01:34:19.800 --> 01:34:23.120]  I want to thank Robert from Jamaica, Robert from Rumson, New Jersey, both for pledging.
[01:34:23.480 --> 01:34:24.180]  Excellent names.
[01:34:24.440 --> 01:34:25.360]  Supporting this radio station.
[01:34:25.480 --> 01:34:26.480]  Yes, Rob P. Firefly.
[01:34:27.520 --> 01:34:29.920]  And 516-620-3602.
[01:34:30.080 --> 01:34:34.280]  And as you were saying, yes, the discussion needs to keep going.
[01:34:34.620 --> 01:34:37.780]  All kinds of controversial things are talked about on this particular station.
[01:34:39.300 --> 01:34:42.540]  And all sorts of radio programs that are on these airwaves.
[01:34:42.740 --> 01:34:44.280]  It's vital to keep the place going.
[01:34:44.980 --> 01:34:46.920]  We're offering a bunch of things.
[01:34:47.020 --> 01:34:54.940]  By the way, Steve, people are calling for the 10 hours of your time, which I'm not going to identify who they are because they asked not to be identified.
[01:34:55.480 --> 01:34:56.940]  But we want to thank those people for calling.
[01:34:56.940 --> 01:34:58.360]  Well, they are going to have to be identified at some point.
[01:34:58.380 --> 01:35:00.000]  Well, to you so that you can work with them, obviously.
[01:35:00.060 --> 01:35:02.600]  But we're not going to say their name on the air because we respect their wishes.
[01:35:03.600 --> 01:35:05.020]  516-620-3602.
[01:35:05.020 --> 01:35:09.460]  We'll pledge you $500, you get 10 hours of Steve Romba, his time.
[01:35:09.680 --> 01:35:13.640]  Which may be nine and a half more hours than you actually want, but nevertheless.
[01:35:14.540 --> 01:35:15.200]  So, yeah.
[01:35:15.340 --> 01:35:18.300]  And Steve knows of what he speaks.
[01:35:18.380 --> 01:35:22.660]  And that's something that I think, regardless of whether or not you agree with some of the things you said.
[01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:24.640]  And, you know, I take issue with some of the things you say.
[01:35:24.760 --> 01:35:26.440]  And many people disagree with each other.
[01:35:27.220 --> 01:35:28.560]  But you know what you're doing.
[01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:30.340]  And nobody can disagree with that.
[01:35:30.340 --> 01:35:37.680]  Look, I could not be more politically different than the average person that comes to a HOPE conference.
[01:35:37.840 --> 01:35:43.880]  I am a right-wing, rah-rah, law enforcement-type guy.
[01:35:44.940 --> 01:35:49.400]  Despite that unique interlude with the FBI.
[01:35:50.580 --> 01:35:57.020]  I can tell you that half the people who came to me and were outraged were other FBI agents.
[01:35:57.020 --> 01:35:58.520]  But that's another discussion.
[01:36:00.820 --> 01:36:12.600]  You know, but the one thing, or one of the main things that I have in common with the 2600 crowd is these are people who think critically.
[01:36:13.140 --> 01:36:21.540]  They don't... they are not knee-jerk followers of one political track or another.
[01:36:21.540 --> 01:36:30.780]  They're people who look at a situation and analyze it and take it apart down to the basic nuts and bolts, which, after all, is what hackers do.
[01:36:30.980 --> 01:36:34.020]  They take it apart, they see how the heck it works, and they put it back together.
[01:36:34.200 --> 01:36:41.880]  And these are people who do it not just with computers, but with the political system and with privacy and with everything else that I'm interested in.
[01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:52.880]  And I've got to tell you, I mean, I have people that have been working with me now for the past 20, 25 years that I met at HOPE conferences because they are inquisitive.
[01:36:53.620 --> 01:36:54.520]  They are smart.
[01:36:54.820 --> 01:36:56.560]  They are intellectually honest.
[01:36:57.120 --> 01:37:01.120]  I mean, despite the fact that they're, you know, lefty morons.
[01:37:02.820 --> 01:37:06.020]  But all of the other things, you know, pretty much overshadow that.
[01:37:06.100 --> 01:37:12.980]  I should point out, though, that there are many right-wing hackers, many hackers that I disagree with on various platforms.
[01:37:13.760 --> 01:37:19.160]  And the things I say, the things we say here don't represent the hacker community any more than anybody else.
[01:37:19.180 --> 01:37:20.260]  We're in the 2600 community.
[01:37:20.360 --> 01:37:21.960]  There's a subreddit I'm going to start.
[01:37:22.120 --> 01:37:22.920]  Right-wing hackers.
[01:37:23.200 --> 01:37:24.220]  Well, they...
[01:37:24.220 --> 01:37:25.560]  There's got to be one already.
[01:37:25.580 --> 01:37:29.160]  Anyone who is free-thinking and believes in certain values.
[01:37:29.160 --> 01:37:33.980]  And I think that's something we do agree on are the basic values and things that need to be preserved and defended.
[01:37:34.280 --> 01:37:35.180]  You know, that's absolutely true.
[01:37:35.180 --> 01:37:47.000]  And the truth is there's a component of everybody that shows up at 2600, whether they're substantially right-wing or left-wing or flying on no-wing occasionally.
[01:37:49.300 --> 01:37:53.380]  They are independent people who just want to be left the heck alone.
[01:37:53.560 --> 01:37:54.140]  Mostly, yes.
[01:37:54.140 --> 01:38:04.180]  And there is a huge, wonderful libertarian thread that runs through that whole conference.
[01:38:04.180 --> 01:38:07.980]  People who just want to be able to be inquisitive.
[01:38:07.980 --> 01:38:09.800]  They want to be able to be smart.
[01:38:10.040 --> 01:38:19.560]  They don't want to be, you know, put in jail for 10 years because they revealed a zero-day exploit on an iPad.
[01:38:19.560 --> 01:38:20.920]  And that's something I think we can...
[01:38:20.920 --> 01:38:22.340]  Which just happened yesterday, by the way.
[01:38:22.340 --> 01:38:23.520]  We can all agree on that.
[01:38:23.600 --> 01:38:26.500]  There are so many people that are put in jail for really ridiculous reasons.
[01:38:26.720 --> 01:38:31.420]  I got to tell you, there's a guy in jail right now who I think is one of the most despicable creatures on the planet.
[01:38:31.920 --> 01:38:34.760]  But what he's serving time in jail for is moronic.
[01:38:34.960 --> 01:38:35.240]  Mm-hmm.
[01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:35.880]  Yes.
[01:38:36.200 --> 01:38:36.600]  Yes.
[01:38:36.840 --> 01:38:41.040]  You know, not a guy who I would invite to a bar mitzvah party.
[01:38:41.040 --> 01:38:45.240]  But especially since he puts all this Nazi stuff out on the internet.
[01:38:45.640 --> 01:38:45.980]  All right.
[01:38:46.020 --> 01:38:49.220]  Let me just run down the premiums and thank people for calling in.
[01:38:49.360 --> 01:38:51.300]  516-620-3602.
[01:38:51.420 --> 01:38:52.140]  Again, for...
[01:38:52.140 --> 01:38:54.660]  And you all listening to Off the Hook on WBAI New York.
[01:38:54.660 --> 01:38:57.560]  If you're tuning in for the Personal Computer Show, obviously it's not on this week.
[01:38:57.560 --> 01:38:58.940]  We'll be on, I believe, next week.
[01:38:59.260 --> 01:39:02.040]  Again, the number 516-620-3602.
[01:39:02.040 --> 01:39:11.740]  You'll get 10 hours of Private Eye, Stephen Rambam's time, which is worth $2,500, non-discounted, absolutely, and $1,750 discounted.
[01:39:11.740 --> 01:39:13.340]  But we're offering it for $500.
[01:39:13.460 --> 01:39:14.700]  That's 10 hours.
[01:39:14.880 --> 01:39:17.800]  And, boy, you can uncover quite a bit in 10 hours.
[01:39:18.020 --> 01:39:22.640]  But there is one more, which I made a big...
[01:39:22.640 --> 01:39:23.120]  Oh, I'll get to that.
[01:39:23.300 --> 01:39:27.300]  Which I made a big mistake by not suggesting you raffle it at $2,600.
[01:39:27.300 --> 01:39:28.140]  We'll get to that.
[01:39:28.200 --> 01:39:28.720]  We'll get to that.
[01:39:29.580 --> 01:39:31.180]  516-620-3602.
[01:39:31.180 --> 01:39:32.200]  Assuming they're still around.
[01:39:33.300 --> 01:39:38.960]  Basically, a pledge of $500 gets you 10 hours of Steve Rambam's time, and he'll uncover whatever it is you need to have uncovered.
[01:39:39.940 --> 01:39:45.360]  For a pledge of $75, you'll get the digital audio flash drive and spoof card.
[01:39:45.360 --> 01:39:50.140]  What that means is you'll have a little USB device that you can plug into your computer or not.
[01:39:50.460 --> 01:39:54.420]  Either way, it will record hours of audio wherever you happen to leave it.
[01:39:54.460 --> 01:39:58.060]  Just make sure you know what the law is as far as that goes in your particular locale.
[01:39:58.060 --> 01:40:02.020]  That's a pledge of $75, 516-620-3602.
[01:40:02.160 --> 01:40:03.840]  For $125, you get all that.
[01:40:03.940 --> 01:40:05.700]  You get the digital audio flash drive.
[01:40:05.940 --> 01:40:08.140]  You get the spoof card.
[01:40:08.140 --> 01:40:17.860]  And you get every talk that Steve Rambam has given at the Hope Conferences that we have records of, which amount to eight different conferences and over a dozen hours easily.
[01:40:18.300 --> 01:40:23.020]  That's for a pledge of $125, 516-620-3602.
[01:40:23.220 --> 01:40:29.600]  Okay, so we have one more item that we want to offer to people, and this one is the biggest one of all.
[01:40:29.680 --> 01:40:30.780]  We only have one of them.
[01:40:31.320 --> 01:40:40.020]  And yes, as Steve mentioned, we did want to offer this for $2,600, but we decided to offer it for $2,500 because we're such nice guys.
[01:40:40.840 --> 01:40:42.000]  You want to describe a story?
[01:40:42.000 --> 01:40:45.080]  Well, first of all, the truth is we messed up.
[01:40:45.200 --> 01:40:46.740]  We didn't think of offering $2,600.
[01:40:46.740 --> 01:40:46.900]  All right, yeah.
[01:40:47.180 --> 01:40:49.520]  We're not always thinking of our own name, unfortunately.
[01:40:49.840 --> 01:40:50.120]  Right, right.
[01:40:50.280 --> 01:40:53.860]  But there's only one of these, so describe it in a way that'll get that person.
[01:40:54.120 --> 01:40:57.040]  This is actually a little bizarre, and we thought of this last minute.
[01:40:57.340 --> 01:41:01.120]  But I have to tell you, we saved the best, the coolest, for last.
[01:41:01.120 --> 01:41:07.880]  There is a book coming out on databases, on privacy, on investigation.
[01:41:08.400 --> 01:41:13.780]  A significant component of it is going to be what happened at the Hope Talk.
[01:41:14.760 --> 01:41:20.000]  You heard the tape earlier talking about Rick Dakin.
[01:41:21.060 --> 01:41:25.600]  I had started a book called Stealing Your Own Identity with Rick.
[01:41:25.600 --> 01:41:33.220]  I'm sure Rick is right now saving up money for a hitman to have me killed because of how long it's taken so long to get this book out.
[01:41:33.780 --> 01:41:38.680]  Rick, if you're listening, I will tell you that the book is coming out.
[01:41:38.820 --> 01:41:49.620]  And all of this stuff that started in 2006 only ended about two weeks ago, which you'll be reading about.
[01:41:49.820 --> 01:41:52.180]  We basically squashed every attempt.
[01:41:52.180 --> 01:41:55.000]  And now it's my turn.
[01:41:56.160 --> 01:42:01.520]  And as part of that, we are coming out with the article in 2600 and the longer book.
[01:42:02.480 --> 01:42:09.080]  Rick, if you're listening, I will be coming to you on my knees begging for your cooperation.
[01:42:10.520 --> 01:42:13.060]  Well, maybe not on my knees, but you get the right idea.
[01:42:14.480 --> 01:42:16.140]  And we are updating this book.
[01:42:16.140 --> 01:42:25.120]  And one of the things that I want to do is show today's frighteningly intrusive technologies.
[01:42:25.140 --> 01:42:27.640]  And I want to do that without bothering Rick.
[01:42:28.180 --> 01:42:39.380]  And what I think we, in a very clever moment of synergy, figured out is we need a new privacy victim.
[01:42:40.500 --> 01:42:44.720]  And for this pledge, you can be the privacy victim.
[01:42:45.260 --> 01:42:47.060]  There is one requirement.
[01:42:47.240 --> 01:42:49.200]  You have to have an actual life.
[01:42:50.160 --> 01:42:52.060]  You can't be 18 years old.
[01:42:52.200 --> 01:42:54.480]  No disrespect to the 18 years olds out there.
[01:42:54.680 --> 01:42:57.240]  You probably haven't done enough to be interesting.
[01:42:58.500 --> 01:42:59.400]  You need to be...
[01:42:59.400 --> 01:43:02.700]  That's in the eyes of the authorities and of credit unions and things like that.
[01:43:02.740 --> 01:43:03.760]  We think you're interesting, but...
[01:43:03.760 --> 01:43:05.220]  Well, we think you're interesting.
[01:43:05.420 --> 01:43:06.480]  I'm sure you're a very nice guy.
[01:43:06.620 --> 01:43:09.120]  I'm sure your girlfriend or boyfriend thinks you're interesting.
[01:43:09.120 --> 01:43:15.360]  I'm sure your mom thinks you're interesting, but not sufficient for our purpose.
[01:43:15.540 --> 01:43:17.940]  We need content, not quality.
[01:43:18.040 --> 01:43:19.300]  We also need quantity.
[01:43:20.560 --> 01:43:32.040]  And we're looking for somebody in their late 20s to early 40s, somewhere in there, who is not the Unabomber, who has not been in a cabin in the woods in Montana.
[01:43:32.040 --> 01:43:35.060]  You have to have had an online life and a digital life.
[01:43:35.600 --> 01:43:47.100]  You have to have had a significant online life and digital life, which means you have to be the average person with a Facebook page and Twitter and maybe a blog and this and that and what have you.
[01:43:48.260 --> 01:43:54.600]  You will need to sign a release, which says that I can perform a digital proctology exam on you.
[01:43:55.840 --> 01:44:00.540]  And in return for that, you will be a chapter in the book.
[01:44:00.680 --> 01:44:02.580]  You will be in a book.
[01:44:02.800 --> 01:44:06.340]  This book will be distributed at Hope.
[01:44:06.600 --> 01:44:12.860]  This book will be on Apple and Amazon and Barnes & Noble and everywhere else.
[01:44:13.100 --> 01:44:17.400]  And I can tell you we have 17 books in this line already out.
[01:44:18.340 --> 01:44:20.720]  So clearly we know what we're doing.
[01:44:21.940 --> 01:44:23.880]  This is going to be a big deal.
[01:44:24.600 --> 01:44:40.240]  Uh, we have an offer from a, from an actual big time publisher, which we don't know if we're going to take yet, but you get to be a chapter in a book, not to mention the fact that you get to find out what the world knows about you.
[01:44:40.680 --> 01:44:45.200]  So obviously the more interesting you are, the more interesting the chapter will be, the better the book will be.
[01:44:45.380 --> 01:44:47.640]  And, uh, everybody benefits from all of that.
[01:44:47.800 --> 01:44:56.380]  Uh, so if that's something that you feel, uh, you can do and, and you're interested in being a part of for a pledge of $2,500, you can be that person.
[01:44:56.900 --> 01:45:00.220]  And, uh, it'll be definitely a once in a lifetime experience.
[01:45:00.360 --> 01:45:02.200]  It's called the privacy victim challenge.
[01:45:03.080 --> 01:45:04.940]  516-620-3602.
[01:45:05.060 --> 01:45:06.500]  We've never offered a premium like this before.
[01:45:07.000 --> 01:45:12.640]  And, um, if anyone is out there that will take it out, I mean, I think it'd be awesome if somebody actually did that.
[01:45:12.640 --> 01:45:25.360]  If you want to be immortalized for, for, for all cyber posterity until, you know, the Martians come and delete all the hard drives on earth, uh, you, well, I mean, there'll be print copies too.
[01:45:25.620 --> 01:45:29.280]  So, you know, we'll just translate it into Martian and you'll be fine.
[01:45:29.500 --> 01:45:29.920]  Yeah.
[01:45:29.960 --> 01:45:40.740]  And this is, this is basically a demonstration of the state of the art of, of what, what is out there, what anyone who's really intent on finding information out about you.
[01:45:40.740 --> 01:45:41.400]  That's correct.
[01:45:41.400 --> 01:45:43.520]  It will not be just me.
[01:45:43.760 --> 01:45:57.680]  It will be, you will be signing all kinds of releases and we will be getting your criminal records from everywhere and every lawsuit and every speeding ticket and every phone call and every location and everything.
[01:45:57.840 --> 01:46:06.980]  We are, we will get every digital, you know, bit and bite of your life.
[01:46:07.380 --> 01:46:12.940]  So now, uh, should the person who, uh, takes this, be trying to hide this information from you?
[01:46:13.220 --> 01:46:14.480]  They're not giving you this information.
[01:46:14.600 --> 01:46:16.160]  You're going to find this information on your own.
[01:46:16.300 --> 01:46:16.920]  Oh, no, no, no.
[01:46:17.000 --> 01:46:17.700]  Well, absolutely.
[01:46:17.980 --> 01:46:19.280]  We, we don't, we don't need anything.
[01:46:19.340 --> 01:46:22.040]  I mean, we obviously need a piece of identification.
[01:46:22.100 --> 01:46:23.980]  Give me your driver's license or whatever.
[01:46:24.120 --> 01:46:26.260]  But overall, it'll be transparent to the victim.
[01:46:26.460 --> 01:46:27.920]  They, they're not really going to feel anything.
[01:46:28.040 --> 01:46:31.840]  They'll, they'll pledge, they'll be a part of it, but this is all going to be going on.
[01:46:36.980 --> 01:46:38.700]  Or, or nauseous, but yeah.
[01:46:38.700 --> 01:46:41.140]  They shouldn't really be wanted in any States, right?
[01:46:41.200 --> 01:46:42.600]  Because you would uncover that.
[01:46:43.280 --> 01:46:45.660]  Uh, you, you know, that's actually not a joke.
[01:46:45.660 --> 01:46:47.480]  If you're wanted, I have to turn you in.
[01:46:47.580 --> 01:46:47.800]  Right.
[01:46:47.900 --> 01:46:48.760]  That's, that's not a joke.
[01:46:49.040 --> 01:46:55.260]  I mean, I'm an investigator and if you, if there's a warrant out for you, um, I'm, I'm giving you up.
[01:46:55.380 --> 01:47:05.680]  But, but if that's not the case and you're the type of person, you're, you fit the description that Steve just, just, uh, laid out there and you're maybe second, you're interested and then maybe you're, you got a little trepidation.
[01:47:05.820 --> 01:47:11.200]  You're second guessing yourself because maybe there's some things you, you, you might, you wouldn't want to be, uh, out there.
[01:47:11.340 --> 01:47:12.600]  You're perfect for this.
[01:47:14.420 --> 01:47:25.340]  Uh, you know, the truth is, I mean, if you're kind of an interesting nutty person, I'll be a happy camper.
[01:47:25.540 --> 01:47:25.940]  Believe me.
[01:47:26.200 --> 01:47:30.280]  I mean, the more, the more, the more, you know, ridiculous.
[01:47:30.480 --> 01:47:40.760]  I mean, if there's, if there's, if, you know, if you, if you've got a topless photo at Cancun or you're Jell-O Biafram, well, Jell-O, please don't, don't call in.
[01:47:41.260 --> 01:47:43.940]  Believe me, there's nothing left to discover about you.
[01:47:44.020 --> 01:47:45.600]  Well, we have a lot of information on Jell-O.
[01:47:45.780 --> 01:47:46.000]  Yeah.
[01:47:46.140 --> 01:47:49.440]  I mean, it would be, it would be like shooting Jell-O in a barrel.
[01:47:49.520 --> 01:47:52.540]  Well, he doesn't have an online persona per se, but, uh.
[01:47:52.540 --> 01:47:53.200]  Yeah.
[01:47:53.400 --> 01:47:54.260]  He, he does.
[01:47:54.460 --> 01:47:55.960]  He's just not the guy who's posted it.
[01:47:56.000 --> 01:47:56.200]  Right.
[01:47:56.400 --> 01:47:56.640]  Right.
[01:47:56.860 --> 01:47:57.020]  Yeah.
[01:47:57.200 --> 01:47:57.440]  Interesting.
[01:47:57.620 --> 01:47:57.840]  Isn't it?
[01:47:58.140 --> 01:47:58.660]  So, okay.
[01:47:58.700 --> 01:47:59.940]  So we have only one of these.
[01:48:00.100 --> 01:48:05.360]  And, uh, if someone calls in, they should call in in the next 15 minutes to 516-620-3602.
[01:48:05.520 --> 01:48:08.320]  Again, $2,500, the privacy victim challenge.
[01:48:08.460 --> 01:48:14.220]  You will be a chapter in Steve Rambam's book and, uh, he will uncover everything there is to uncover about you.
[01:48:14.360 --> 01:48:15.300]  So be aware of that.
[01:48:15.740 --> 01:48:20.860]  Uh, if you do pledge for this, uh, we will get your name and, uh, Steve will be in touch.
[01:48:20.860 --> 01:48:22.500]  And Steve will get everything else.
[01:48:22.620 --> 01:48:22.800]  Right.
[01:48:23.020 --> 01:48:24.760]  And you don't have to tell him, uh, the secrets.
[01:48:24.920 --> 01:48:26.060]  Obviously he'll find out those secrets.
[01:48:26.200 --> 01:48:32.420]  Just make sure that any secrets you have, or, uh, you don't have a problem with being revealed and included in that, in that chapter.
[01:48:32.480 --> 01:48:35.840]  You will, you will see a drone above your driveway every day.
[01:48:35.940 --> 01:48:36.440]  That's correct.
[01:48:36.840 --> 01:48:37.800]  It's a unique thing.
[01:48:37.900 --> 01:48:39.980]  One other station can offer you something like that.
[01:48:39.980 --> 01:48:43.560]  Uh, but, uh, for this two hour surveillance special, I, I think it's apropos.
[01:48:43.960 --> 01:48:45.480]  Dial 1-800-STALK-ME.
[01:48:45.640 --> 01:48:46.820]  No, I'm kidding about that.
[01:48:46.820 --> 01:48:49.020]  516-620-3602.
[01:48:49.140 --> 01:48:55.680]  And we still have, uh, a few of the, um, the 10 hours of private eye investigation, uh, uh, uh, uh, premium that we're offering.
[01:48:55.780 --> 01:48:58.240]  10 hours of Steve Rambam's time for a pledge of $500.
[01:48:58.440 --> 01:49:03.860]  10 hours of private eye investigation is what you should ask for when you call 516-620-3602.
[01:49:03.860 --> 01:49:08.300]  And, of course, we also have the $75 and $125 levels.
[01:49:08.540 --> 01:49:17.780]  Uh, $75, you get digital audio flash drive, and you get a spoof card, which allows you to protect your privacy in various ways and record people surreptitiously.
[01:49:18.280 --> 01:49:21.960]  516-620-3602 for a pledge of $125.
[01:49:21.960 --> 01:49:28.940]  You get the digital audio flash drive, you get the spoof card, and you get over a dozen DVDs of Steve Rambam giving talks at HOPE conferences.
[01:49:29.200 --> 01:49:34.240]  That's for a pledge of $125, 516-620-3602.
[01:49:34.400 --> 01:49:34.660]  Alex?
[01:49:34.880 --> 01:49:36.760]  I think this is such an incredible premium.
[01:49:36.960 --> 01:49:37.620]  It's pretty amazing.
[01:49:38.000 --> 01:49:41.240]  Um, I think at once it's, uh, very unique.
[01:49:41.240 --> 01:49:45.140]  It's also somewhat terrifying and enlightening at the same time.
[01:49:45.300 --> 01:49:47.320]  I mean, as it's, it's, it's like an exorcism.
[01:49:47.820 --> 01:49:48.340]  It's great.
[01:49:48.360 --> 01:49:49.720]  We offer terrifying premiums.
[01:49:49.800 --> 01:49:50.260]  It's fantastic.
[01:49:50.680 --> 01:49:51.780]  I think, I think it's wonderful.
[01:49:52.340 --> 01:49:54.620]  And, and this, I think raises an interesting question.
[01:49:54.700 --> 01:49:58.520]  I'd like to ask Steve a question because, you know, this is the surveillance show.
[01:49:58.860 --> 01:50:08.160]  And I think that viscerally we've all been operating under this assumption that surveillance is bad and it has some kind of maybe... Not always.
[01:50:08.400 --> 01:50:09.140]  Well, exactly.
[01:50:09.360 --> 01:50:09.780]  Not always.
[01:50:09.860 --> 01:50:10.300]  Not always.
[01:50:10.440 --> 01:50:13.440]  But the overall collection, total surveillance would be bad.
[01:50:14.040 --> 01:50:17.520]  Some data is not used for proper purposes.
[01:50:18.060 --> 01:50:20.620]  Your second law, as you said, is that it will always be misused.
[01:50:20.820 --> 01:50:25.100]  So there is unintentional but foreseeable consequences that of, of surveillance.
[01:50:25.560 --> 01:50:39.220]  And I, I think, so let's, let's, let's go on that assumption that some surveillance is bad and it is going to have some kind of adverse effect on our civil liberties, uh, on the free exercise of some of our civil liberties.
[01:50:39.660 --> 01:50:45.800]  But doesn't the collection of this data and the conglomeration of it, doesn't it allow you to do your job?
[01:50:52.060 --> 01:50:56.740]  Isn't schizophrenic moments when I speak at, at, at, at, uh, the HOPE conferences.
[01:50:57.000 --> 01:51:16.300]  Look, if you, if you are the average knucklehead out there, um, uh, who is putting every moment, tweeting everything they do of significance and putting every, taking a photograph of every significant moment in your life and uploading it to Instagram or Flickr and,
[01:51:16.460 --> 01:51:19.760]  and, you know, you are no longer using cash.
[01:51:19.940 --> 01:51:28.580]  You're using PayPal and Visa and you're making all your calls, even your local phone calls on a cell phone because you don't have a landline.
[01:51:28.740 --> 01:51:31.120]  I mean, as an investigator, thank you.
[01:51:31.580 --> 01:51:43.360]  I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're a wonderful person and thank you for, for making, giving me the ability to work smarter and cheaper and basically in my underwear in the middle of the night.
[01:51:43.960 --> 01:51:49.720]  But, but having, having said that as an American, you're creeping me out, dude.
[01:51:50.080 --> 01:51:52.500]  You know, I mean, that's the only way to put it.
[01:51:53.280 --> 01:51:59.360]  Why, why if you go and eat a slice of pizza, do you tweet about it?
[01:51:59.840 --> 01:52:02.860]  Honest to God, my own mother doesn't care that I'm eating pizza.
[01:52:03.220 --> 01:52:05.760]  Why do you assume people care about this stuff?
[01:52:05.840 --> 01:52:10.060]  My theory is this intense loneliness and just sort of an exhibitionist, uh, society we live in now.
[01:52:10.060 --> 01:52:11.740]  We just want to be important and notice.
[01:52:11.740 --> 01:52:15.000]  Well, go down to the Hellfire Club and get spanked.
[01:52:15.100 --> 01:52:20.740]  I mean, you know, I, I really, I really don't know what to suggest to these, to these people.
[01:52:20.920 --> 01:52:28.080]  I mean, maybe we need to start having 2,600 meetups other than at the, uh, the Citicorp center.
[01:52:28.320 --> 01:52:29.320]  Meetings, not meetups.
[01:52:29.660 --> 01:52:36.480]  Well, no, I meant of a social nature other than, you know, of a, of a hacker nature.
[01:52:36.640 --> 01:52:39.020]  Look, I, I, I hope that's not what it is.
[01:52:39.100 --> 01:52:43.080]  I hope that there aren't millions of intensely loyal people, lonely people out there.
[01:52:43.080 --> 01:52:47.720]  I do want to, I do want to, at first, I want to thank Jonas from Flanders, New Jersey, Donald from Northport, New York for their generous pledges.
[01:52:47.860 --> 01:52:49.720]  And there's so many people that don't want to be thanked.
[01:52:50.040 --> 01:52:51.260]  Uh, they're smart.
[01:52:51.760 --> 01:52:55.440]  Uh, the, the, the enormous anonymous family.
[01:52:55.500 --> 01:52:55.700]  Yes.
[01:52:55.800 --> 01:52:58.980]  We have given away two of the $500 pledges of your time.
[01:52:59.080 --> 01:52:59.220]  Yeah, baby.
[01:52:59.400 --> 01:53:03.220]  So that's 20 hours of your life, Steve, that are going to be, uh, uh, given to you.
[01:53:03.220 --> 01:53:13.080]  Well, I mean, I, I purposely, I per, look, I think that, you know, this, this, this horrible lefty radio station is, is, is actually critically important.
[01:53:13.080 --> 01:53:16.920]  And I have literally donated a week of my life to this.
[01:53:17.040 --> 01:53:18.280]  I mean, 40 hours of work.
[01:53:18.300 --> 01:53:22.880]  I think that's something we need to look at because a lot of times, and this is criticism I have for people that I agree with.
[01:53:23.000 --> 01:53:24.680]  We don't listen to people we disagree with.
[01:53:24.760 --> 01:53:27.840]  We only listen to people that we, you know, say the same things.
[01:53:27.840 --> 01:53:33.880]  Freedom of speech, unless you're a, freedom of speech, unless you're a Klan member or a Nazi is, is important.
[01:53:34.040 --> 01:53:35.080]  We need to have debates.
[01:53:35.240 --> 01:53:36.220]  We need to have disagreement.
[01:53:36.480 --> 01:53:37.560]  That's what's interesting dialogue.
[01:53:37.720 --> 01:53:38.800]  That's how you progress and learn.
[01:53:38.940 --> 01:53:40.720]  And you need to respect people that you disagree with.
[01:53:40.840 --> 01:53:42.980]  And, and we can talk for hours about that kind of a thing.
[01:53:43.060 --> 01:53:47.920]  But I wanted to ask you in the moments we have left, Google Glass, what's, what do you think of that?
[01:53:48.080 --> 01:53:49.020]  Oh my God.
[01:53:49.260 --> 01:53:50.240]  Look, you know what?
[01:53:50.400 --> 01:53:57.390]  It's, it's, if it wasn't real, it would be a Saturday Night Live skit.
[01:53:58.010 --> 01:53:59.290]  It really would be.
[01:53:59.450 --> 01:54:14.210]  I mean, first of all, you know, these things to the point where, you know, you go, you go, you go into a bathroom to use the urinal and you've, you've, you've embarrassed 27 people.
[01:54:14.950 --> 01:54:16.390]  I mean, it's ridiculous.
[01:54:16.630 --> 01:54:28.150]  There, there are going to be moments where you don't realize you have this damn thing on and you're, you're in some intimate moment or stupid moment or intensely personal moment and you've broadcast it to the world.
[01:54:28.330 --> 01:54:38.470]  And I want to tell you, if there's one thing to learn about cyberspace, it's once a piece of data is out there, you can never get it back.
[01:54:38.990 --> 01:54:39.430]  Never.
[01:54:39.630 --> 01:54:40.330]  It's gone.
[01:54:40.930 --> 01:54:41.370]  Absolutely.
[01:54:41.570 --> 01:54:51.550]  And you know, what bothers me about this, this embracing of technology blindly is that, uh, like you said, they're doing the job of people that want to keep track of you, but it changes the whole landscape.
[01:54:51.550 --> 01:54:52.850]  And we think this is normal.
[01:54:52.950 --> 01:54:55.850]  We think it'll be normal just to record everything in our line of vision.
[01:54:56.230 --> 01:54:59.550]  Uh, we're going to be wearing these things, not knowing it.
[01:54:59.590 --> 01:55:01.790]  We're going to have contact lenses with Google glass in them.
[01:55:01.910 --> 01:55:04.430]  And we're just by default, everything will be recorded.
[01:55:04.570 --> 01:55:05.690]  Our location will always be known.
[01:55:05.870 --> 01:55:06.490]  Anonymity will be.
[01:55:06.730 --> 01:55:08.390]  And by the way, we predicted this.
[01:55:08.510 --> 01:55:13.090]  We actually showed a graphic of it at 2,600 eight years ago.
[01:55:13.290 --> 01:55:13.570]  Wow.
[01:55:13.710 --> 01:55:14.870]  Google glass, if you remember.
[01:55:15.050 --> 01:55:16.830]  Well, you might get some residuals from this then.
[01:55:17.030 --> 01:55:17.190]  Yeah.
[01:55:18.110 --> 01:55:18.510]  Doubtful.
[01:55:18.770 --> 01:55:19.150]  Doubtful.
[01:55:19.330 --> 01:55:21.230]  But I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll say this.
[01:55:21.370 --> 01:55:26.610]  I mean, didn't you want to smack Schmidt when he said, you have to fight for your privacy?
[01:55:27.150 --> 01:55:31.890]  The, the, the, the chief executive officer of Google saying, you have to fight for your privacy.
[01:55:32.630 --> 01:55:37.590]  I mean, you look up hypocrisy in the dictionary and his picture is there.
[01:55:38.410 --> 01:55:38.850]  All right.
[01:55:38.850 --> 01:55:42.790]  We just got rid of another, uh, another 10 hours of your time.
[01:55:42.930 --> 01:55:44.870]  And, and Mike wants to be thanked.
[01:55:45.590 --> 01:55:48.190]  Uh, Mike from Union City, New Jersey wants to be thanked.
[01:55:48.590 --> 01:55:49.390]  Uh-oh, Union City.
[01:55:49.490 --> 01:55:51.290]  I know what type of case is coming out of there.
[01:55:52.190 --> 01:55:53.070]  I won't touch that.
[01:55:53.070 --> 01:55:55.130]  I, I will, I will find the body.
[01:55:55.390 --> 01:55:56.490]  I will not exhume it.
[01:55:58.010 --> 01:55:58.710]  Well, okay.
[01:55:58.990 --> 01:56:00.990]  Uh, so thank you, Mike, for that, uh, generous pledge.
[01:56:01.270 --> 01:56:01.590]  Thank you, Michael.
[01:56:02.110 --> 01:56:03.810]  All kidding, all kidding aside.
[01:56:04.210 --> 01:56:08.530]  And, and Mike, if you want to know privately why there are no volcanoes, I will tell you.
[01:56:08.750 --> 01:56:09.030]  Yes.
[01:56:09.630 --> 01:56:12.670]  Um, now, uh, but getting back to Google Glass just for a moment.
[01:56:13.030 --> 01:56:21.270]  Um, it just makes me afraid because, well, people say, say that, uh, oh, there won't be any advertising because they say there won't be any advertising on it.
[01:56:21.550 --> 01:56:24.470]  Do you think really in five years they'll be saying the same thing?
[01:56:24.710 --> 01:56:27.890]  You know, things will change and we'll be used to this and it'll be the norm.
[01:56:28.510 --> 01:56:30.830]  And, uh, I just, I'm afraid of that society.
[01:56:31.110 --> 01:56:48.330]  Look, I've got to believe that it's such an outrageous thing that they put it out there so that they've moved the boundary so far out so that merely outrageous things are now acceptable in, in lieu of these things that are absolutely insane.
[01:56:48.690 --> 01:57:02.890]  I think they've put Google Glass out there so that we focus on something that is such an idiotic, insane, outrageous thing that we're not going to pay attention to the merely destructive things they're doing.
[01:57:02.930 --> 01:57:05.670]  All that said, though, it is pretty damn cool.
[01:57:05.670 --> 01:57:06.410]  I'll say that.
[01:57:06.610 --> 01:57:07.070]  It is cool.
[01:57:07.210 --> 01:57:08.610]  But it's really not.
[01:57:08.870 --> 01:57:10.310]  Technologically wise, it's really not.
[01:57:10.310 --> 01:57:19.890]  It will be in five years when you're able to put on Google glasses and wear them to a party and, and the person you don't remember, it's like, Hey, it's been a year.
[01:57:20.050 --> 01:57:27.610]  And then, you know, facial recognition pops up and it says, Joan, husband, David has two kids, a dog named spot.
[01:57:27.670 --> 01:57:30.810]  And you go, Hey, Joan, how's your little dog spot?
[01:57:31.010 --> 01:57:33.290]  And she goes, you do remember me.
[01:57:33.410 --> 01:57:36.970]  It'll be like that guy on Veep who, uh, which was into the vice president's year.
[01:57:37.810 --> 01:57:40.970]  This person, this person is, uh, has this daughter and this dog.
[01:57:41.090 --> 01:57:41.950]  Well, that's what we did.
[01:57:42.070 --> 01:57:43.750]  That's what we did with the great Kavaris.
[01:57:43.930 --> 01:57:48.530]  The only difference is you're not going to need a back room of five investigators in a war room.
[01:57:48.650 --> 01:57:50.270]  You're going to have all of Google.
[01:57:50.930 --> 01:57:51.290]  Wow.
[01:57:51.550 --> 01:57:59.670]  This would help me though, because like Brad Pitt, I think I've got face blindness where I don't recognize people all the time and people think I'm being rude, but really I just, I don't have that, that ability.
[01:57:59.850 --> 01:58:03.990]  And it'd be nice to have something that says, this is this person and, uh, this is who they are.
[01:58:04.310 --> 01:58:14.950]  I want to publicly announce the first person who comes into my office or my home wearing Google glass will leave with a smashed Google glass.
[01:58:15.350 --> 01:58:18.930]  Steve, you won't know when they're wearing it in the future because it'll be in their eye.
[01:58:19.310 --> 01:58:20.550]  That's my fear.
[01:58:20.790 --> 01:58:26.450]  If I have to run a drill bit into the eye of everyone who comes into my office, I will do it.
[01:58:26.610 --> 01:58:27.190]  Believe me.
[01:58:27.250 --> 01:58:30.410]  On that note, we must sign off because we are out of time.
[01:58:30.490 --> 01:58:31.810]  But boy, this two hours went so fast.
[01:58:32.170 --> 01:58:33.790]  Hey, thank you everybody who donated.
[01:58:33.970 --> 01:58:34.490]  God bless you.
[01:58:34.490 --> 01:58:35.550]  And we've done really, really well.
[01:58:35.690 --> 01:58:36.190]  Thank you, everybody.
[01:58:36.370 --> 01:58:40.050]  I think there's one, uh, 10 hour, uh, uh, block left.
[01:58:40.190 --> 01:58:43.630]  If, uh, there is, and please call 516-620-3602.
[01:58:43.750 --> 01:58:47.470]  And the $2,500 one will stay up there for two more weeks.
[01:58:47.630 --> 01:58:54.250]  I don't think that one has been taken yet, but again, $2,500, you'll be a chapter in Steve's book and he will find out all kinds of things about you, assuming that, uh, that's what you want.
[01:58:54.750 --> 01:58:59.690]  516-620-3602, one, uh, 10 hour block of Steve Rambam's time to help you with an investigation.
[01:59:00.210 --> 01:59:07.650]  Uh, and also we have the 75 and 125 levels where you'll get the audio recorder, you'll get the, uh, spliff card, you'll get the DVDs.
[01:59:08.330 --> 01:59:09.890]  516-620-3602.
[01:59:10.010 --> 01:59:10.450]  Write to us.
[01:59:10.570 --> 01:59:13.030]  Our email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:59:13.510 --> 01:59:16.250]  And we'll be back next week with a one hour program.
[01:59:16.510 --> 01:59:28.070]  I want to thank everybody for, uh, listening in on this two hour program and stay tuned for next week for the personal computer show, going back to this particular time and keep listening to WBAI for all kinds of interesting things in future hours.
[01:59:28.290 --> 01:59:29.230]  This manual for Off The Hook.
[01:59:29.330 --> 01:59:29.750]  Have a good night.