[00:00.000 --> 00:11.400]  Crossroads Rally and March on Monday, June 17th, at the East Capitol Lawn in Albany, New York, to say no to fracking and yes to renewable energy.
[00:11.960 --> 00:17.900]  For buses, call Food & Water Watch 718-943-8064.
[00:18.240 --> 00:22.480]  That's 718-943-8064.
[00:23.980 --> 00:31.400]  To show my rainbow race, it's too soon to die.
[00:34.180 --> 00:37.740]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:37.880 --> 00:38.740]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:38.980 --> 00:40.920]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:57.490 --> 00:58.990]  Couldn't get much worse.
[01:01.780 --> 01:04.400]  From Billy Bump, but the best is back from worst.
[01:05.100 --> 01:06.900]  I hope that's understood.
[01:07.080 --> 01:07.940]  From Billy Bump!
[02:32.120 --> 02:34.500]  And a very good evening to ride the program is Off the Hook.
[02:34.600 --> 02:41.460]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening for a very special program that technically should not even be here.
[02:41.540 --> 02:46.740]  But it's important enough that we broadcast tonight and discuss some very important issues.
[02:47.340 --> 02:51.100]  Emmanuel Goldstein here, joined by Mike.
[02:51.440 --> 02:51.940]  Hi there.
[02:52.960 --> 02:53.360]  Alex.
[02:53.920 --> 02:54.300]  Good evening.
[02:54.580 --> 02:55.080]  Rob T.
[02:55.360 --> 02:55.760]  Firefly.
[02:55.980 --> 02:56.380]  Good evening.
[02:56.600 --> 02:56.880]  Kyle.
[02:58.000 --> 02:58.400]  Hi.
[02:58.940 --> 03:00.020]  Who's on the other side of the room.
[03:00.460 --> 03:01.420]  And Bernie S.
[03:01.480 --> 03:02.180]  down in Philadelphia.
[03:02.560 --> 03:04.100]  Or Pennsylvania someplace.
[03:04.480 --> 03:05.480]  Yeah, I'm in Pennsylvania.
[03:05.560 --> 03:06.100]  Somewhere in Pennsylvania.
[03:06.100 --> 03:07.040]  Somewhere in Pennsylvania, yeah.
[03:07.340 --> 03:09.540]  He's lying low for reasons we'll get into later.
[03:10.340 --> 03:12.920]  And visiting us is Voltaire, voice from the past.
[03:13.200 --> 03:13.720]  Hi, Voltaire.
[03:13.920 --> 03:14.120]  Hello.
[03:14.620 --> 03:15.360]  Good to see you again.
[03:16.980 --> 03:21.020]  So, before we get into the whole PRISM thing, and we are going to talk about PRISM.
[03:21.020 --> 03:25.240]  And if you haven't heard about PRISM, you haven't been paying attention, because that's been all over the news.
[03:25.360 --> 03:31.160]  And other NSA leaks that have been taking place in the last week, since we went off the air last Wednesday.
[03:31.920 --> 03:34.200]  But, as I said, this show should not be on the air.
[03:34.220 --> 03:35.860]  Not because it's too objectionable.
[03:36.000 --> 03:36.100]  No.
[03:36.340 --> 03:40.660]  BAI realizes controversial subjects need to be on the air.
[03:41.640 --> 03:46.420]  This show was to have been preempted by an emergency extension of the fundraiser.
[03:46.520 --> 03:47.280]  We did great.
[03:47.960 --> 03:49.600]  Off the Hook did great on the fundraiser.
[03:49.720 --> 03:52.720]  But, overall, the station has not yet met its goal.
[03:53.180 --> 03:56.220]  And we are in a very critical state where we need to do that.
[03:56.220 --> 04:10.740]  So, I am asking, I am asking people, so that we can have this conversation unfettered, to please call during the time that we are talking about these important issues, and pledge as much as you can to this radio station.
[04:11.120 --> 04:12.180]  There's two ways you can do it.
[04:12.240 --> 04:16.240]  You can go to the website, give2wbai.org, and the two should be a number.
[04:16.240 --> 04:19.820]  So, G-I-V-E-2-W-B-A-I.org.
[04:20.040 --> 04:22.240]  Make sure you mention that Off the Hook is your favorite show.
[04:22.720 --> 04:28.120]  Or you can call 516-620-3602 and pledge that way.
[04:29.100 --> 04:33.160]  And either one of those will help this radio station survive.
[04:33.420 --> 04:34.960]  Now, there are very important things going on.
[04:35.040 --> 04:39.860]  Right now, at this very moment, folks are meeting over at what looks like it'll be our new facility.
[04:39.940 --> 04:41.100]  We're not going to give out details.
[04:41.200 --> 04:42.440]  I'm not sure of any details I've been giving out.
[04:42.540 --> 04:44.840]  But we are actually moving forward.
[04:44.840 --> 04:49.120]  Yeah, you know, there are all kinds of miscues and stumbles and things like that.
[04:49.240 --> 04:54.200]  But in the end, it is our hope to actually own a building in the New York metropolitan area.
[04:54.420 --> 04:56.440]  So, your help is making that possible.
[04:56.440 --> 04:58.700]  And that will make the station stronger than ever.
[04:58.880 --> 05:01.520]  So, please, 516-620-3602.
[05:01.680 --> 05:07.940]  We have a couple of things left over from the previous weeks of fundraising.
[05:09.240 --> 05:12.600]  Two of which involve a form of spying.
[05:14.500 --> 05:15.740]  And, well, let me get into that.
[05:15.860 --> 05:20.240]  The digital audio flash drive, that's a USB flash drive.
[05:20.300 --> 05:20.920]  Have you ever seen one of those?
[05:21.020 --> 05:21.700]  They're tiny little things.
[05:21.780 --> 05:23.140]  It can record audio.
[05:23.420 --> 05:24.460]  Hours and hours of audio.
[05:25.000 --> 05:26.400]  You don't have to plug it into a computer.
[05:26.540 --> 05:32.440]  You just leave it in a room and you can record people surreptitiously and then plug it into a computer later and listen to what you've retrieved.
[05:32.720 --> 05:38.080]  Yeah, that's yours for a pledge of $75 to 516-620-3602.
[05:38.200 --> 05:39.540]  Emmanuel, what is the name of that?
[05:39.540 --> 05:43.180]  That is called the digital audio flash drive.
[05:43.520 --> 05:50.980]  So, you call 516-620-3602 and you say, I would like to support the station and in exchange receive the digital audio flash drive.
[05:51.100 --> 05:51.380]  Right.
[05:51.600 --> 05:57.940]  Now, if you want more, and I can't imagine why you wouldn't, you can get the digital audio flash drive plus DVD set.
[05:57.940 --> 06:05.300]  And that DVD set will be filled with talks from our friend, private investigator Stephen Rambam, at the various HOPE conferences.
[06:05.380 --> 06:15.740]  And if you want somebody to tell you all about the things that the world is learning about right now as far as surveillance and eavesdropping and pen registers and wiretaps and things like that, this is the guy to listen to.
[06:15.740 --> 06:22.780]  This is the guy I listened to five years ago, ten years ago even, because what he told us back then is being revealed now.
[06:22.960 --> 06:24.300]  And that's how you learn these things.
[06:24.960 --> 06:26.660]  516-620-3602.
[06:26.720 --> 06:34.240]  Again, we are counting on you to please call up while we are talking about the major issues that have taken place in the last week.
[06:34.920 --> 06:39.820]  We're going to look at the tally at the half-hour mark, and if it's doing okay, we're going to keep going.
[06:39.920 --> 06:43.300]  If it's not doing okay, then we've got to stop and beg people to call in.
[06:43.460 --> 06:47.240]  So, remember, this kind of thing is not being discussed in other places.
[06:47.260 --> 06:48.260]  Yeah, it's in the news.
[06:48.440 --> 06:49.560]  It's all over the news.
[06:49.940 --> 06:52.800]  But it's not being discussed the way we are going to discuss it.
[06:52.880 --> 06:55.560]  It's not being analyzed the way we're going to analyze it.
[06:55.840 --> 07:02.840]  And this is the kind of thing that we live for, revelations like this, leaks like this, the technology that's involved.
[07:04.220 --> 07:06.760]  Bernie, it's hard to believe these things keep happening, right?
[07:07.240 --> 07:08.000]  I mean, what a week.
[07:08.180 --> 07:17.320]  I mean, it seems like the weight just keeps getting heavier and heavier on our shoulders about all the surveillance going on around us in every form imaginable.
[07:17.440 --> 07:18.000]  It's crazy.
[07:19.100 --> 07:19.540]  Absolutely.
[07:19.820 --> 07:23.040]  But what's not crazy is keeping this radio station on the air.
[07:23.680 --> 07:25.220]  That is what is essential.
[07:25.220 --> 07:40.680]  If we're going to have any kind of a dialogue concerning eavesdropping privacy, civil rights, all the things that are going to be facing us as technology gets more and more advanced, it's really kind of scary, kind of scary to see the potential here.
[07:41.140 --> 07:44.800]  516-620-3602, please give a call.
[07:44.960 --> 07:55.200]  We also have leftover DVDs from... well, they're not leftover anymore because they haven't been made yet, but it's from the upcoming OM conference, OHM.
[07:55.760 --> 08:00.700]  In Holland, that will be taking place in late July, early August.
[08:01.000 --> 08:06.480]  So what we're offering to you is a collection of all the talks on DVD.
[08:07.200 --> 08:08.900]  We're calling it the OM DVD Collection.
[08:08.900 --> 08:11.460]  That's for a pledge of 125.
[08:12.000 --> 08:14.520]  Yes, 516-620-3602.
[08:14.600 --> 08:16.420]  So I think we've said everything we can say about that.
[08:16.580 --> 08:19.200]  Anyone want to add anything as far as why people should call?
[08:19.600 --> 08:21.380]  I mean, I think you're right that we've said it all.
[08:22.260 --> 08:23.500]  516-620-3602.
[08:24.040 --> 08:29.240]  You call, you show your support, you keep us on the air, and you let us talk about the things that are important to you.
[08:30.200 --> 08:30.600]  Absolutely.
[08:30.980 --> 08:31.320]  Alex?
[08:31.580 --> 08:44.280]  And I think, despite what we're about to talk about, I think you should have absolutely no qualms about picking up the phone and calling 516-620-3602 and making a pledge, despite who's listening and who's watching.
[08:45.160 --> 08:45.960]  That's right.
[08:46.120 --> 08:46.560]  Yeah, okay.
[08:46.980 --> 08:47.300]  Definitely.
[08:47.500 --> 08:48.160]  Barney, did you have something?
[08:48.740 --> 08:49.740]  I was just laughing.
[08:49.900 --> 08:59.780]  I thought that's apropos, because clearly a lot more is being listened to and logged and monitored than we suspected.
[09:00.000 --> 09:03.440]  Well, maybe we suspected it, but now we have proof, and we'll be talking about that tonight.
[09:03.440 --> 09:15.200]  Yeah, and that's a really big deal, and you're part of that, like, as our listenership for keeping us on the air in the past, and these phone drives are what continue to, like, have our programming be available via WBAI.
[09:15.200 --> 09:19.140]  So, please support the station and this show as a consequence.
[09:19.640 --> 09:20.080]  Yes.
[09:20.560 --> 09:26.040]  Radio is so very relevant these days, despite what you might hear in various forums.
[09:26.640 --> 09:30.940]  This is where you can just turn on a device and hear important issues like this.
[09:30.980 --> 09:31.160]  Rob?
[09:31.300 --> 09:44.420]  And, of course, for our podcast listeners and archive listeners, you can't call us live in that case, but you can always go to WBAI.org and follow the links to support us, support our show, support our station, and keep this station on the air.
[09:45.080 --> 09:47.040]  Okay, we've said what we can say.
[09:47.300 --> 09:49.660]  Now, let's talk about what has happened.
[09:50.140 --> 10:00.940]  This started, actually, right after our show last week, when one leak was revealed in various media organizations, and it continued, continued through the weekend.
[10:01.340 --> 10:01.840]  U.S.
[10:01.960 --> 10:11.180]  National Security Agency, Federal Bureau of Investigation, have access to servers at Google, Facebook, and other major Internet services, collecting audio, video, email, other content for surveillance.
[10:11.180 --> 10:16.140]  That's according to the Washington Post, who reported this on Thursday, and also The Guardian over in the U.K.
[10:17.040 --> 10:30.160]  That particular part of the story, surveillance, is taking place under a classified program called PRISM, which was begun back in 2007 under the Bush administration to investigate foreign threats to the United States.
[10:30.160 --> 10:40.580]  Most of the major Internet services, including Microsoft, Yahoo, Skype, Apple, and AOL, as well as Google and Facebook, knowingly participate in PRISM, according to The Post.
[10:40.820 --> 10:47.180]  And that report came from a leak by an intelligence officer who supplied The Post with PowerPoint slides about PRISM.
[10:47.440 --> 10:51.520]  The newspaper posted some of those slides with its article.
[10:51.660 --> 10:54.900]  And I say some of them because I think, how many did they actually show?
[10:55.060 --> 10:55.380]  Three?
[10:55.380 --> 10:58.020]  I think four or five, but very few.
[10:58.320 --> 11:00.320]  Very few, because there are a lot more than that.
[11:00.560 --> 11:03.400]  There's 41, and only five of them have we seen.
[11:04.300 --> 11:08.500]  Now, this led to quite a bit of consternation.
[11:09.040 --> 11:11.680]  The New York Times, in fact, had a scathing editorial.
[11:11.760 --> 11:19.600]  This based mostly on the revelation that Verizon was giving out all kinds of information to the government.
[11:19.700 --> 11:19.800]  Mike?
[11:19.800 --> 11:23.280]  Yeah, I think the Verizon story is actually more important.
[11:23.500 --> 11:25.280]  It's a lot clearer of a story.
[11:25.580 --> 11:27.260]  And we know...
[11:27.260 --> 11:29.980]  Look, I think if you're not American, you deserve privacy, too.
[11:30.180 --> 11:34.500]  But the rules of the government say you're only supposed to spy on not Americans.
[11:34.720 --> 11:38.080]  And this program very clearly targets Americans explicitly.
[11:39.160 --> 11:45.000]  And I don't want to say this story's got lost, but I think the PRISM thing has sort of overshadowed it.
[11:45.100 --> 11:46.400]  And I think that's really not right.
[11:47.140 --> 11:48.700]  Well, it's competition of the leaks.
[11:48.820 --> 11:50.760]  But the leaks, they came from the same guy, right?
[11:50.940 --> 11:51.000]  Yeah.
[11:51.260 --> 11:51.580]  All right.
[11:51.700 --> 11:53.900]  Well, maybe he should have timed it better or something.
[11:54.040 --> 11:57.760]  Well, I mean, it was Glenn Greenwald for The Guardian who wrote the stories.
[11:58.000 --> 12:01.060]  And I don't think it's anyone's fault.
[12:01.060 --> 12:05.620]  I just think that we need to pay attention at least as much to this Verizon story.
[12:05.840 --> 12:09.240]  Then let me say what the New York Times had to say about the Verizon story.
[12:09.460 --> 12:12.860]  They said the administration has now lost all credibility on this issue.
[12:12.860 --> 12:20.440]  Mr. Obama is proving the truism that the executive will use any power it has given and very likely abuse it.
[12:20.520 --> 12:33.020]  That is one reason we have long argued that the Patriot Act, enacted in the heat of fear after the 9-11 attacks by members of Congress, not the 9-11 attacks by members of Congress, but they might as well have been because there have been so many attacks on our freedom since then,
[12:33.020 --> 12:41.560]  who mostly had not even read it, the Patriot Act that is, was reckless in its assignment of unnecessary and overbroad surveillance powers.
[12:41.800 --> 12:57.100]  Based on an article in The Guardian published Wednesday night, we now know the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency used the Patriot Act to obtain a secret warrant to compel Verizon's Business Services Division to turn over data on every single call that went through its system.
[12:57.100 --> 13:05.620]  We know that this particular order was a routine extension of surveillance that has been going on for years, and it seems very likely that it extends beyond Verizon's Business Division.
[13:05.820 --> 13:16.720]  There is every reason to believe the federal government has been collecting every bit of information about every American's phone calls, except the words actually exchanged in those calls.
[13:16.720 --> 13:21.160]  That might seem like, okay, well, they're not listening in, so how bad can it possibly be?
[13:21.160 --> 13:30.200]  Bernie, I believe you were saying earlier that the information that they're privy to actually contains more information than if they had been listening in on the conversation.
[13:30.360 --> 13:41.700]  Yeah, if you're gathering intelligence, I think there's more, generally, there could be more value obtained from all this so-called metadata than from the actual call content itself.
[13:41.980 --> 13:47.620]  By the metadata, we're talking about the originating phone number, the ending phone number.
[13:47.620 --> 13:53.020]  This stuff used to be called pen register stuff back in the day, but who called whom?
[13:53.240 --> 13:55.560]  Well, the president said, oh, we don't have the names.
[13:55.600 --> 13:56.620]  This isn't the names.
[13:56.800 --> 13:57.600]  But that's nonsense.
[13:57.880 --> 14:03.380]  It's like a... it's incredibly... it's trivial to see whose name is associated with the phone number.
[14:03.460 --> 14:19.060]  But the originating caller, the receiving caller, how long the call was, where each party was when they made or received the call, where they were traveling during this, and even when they're not on the phone, the information about where your phone was at any given time.
[14:19.100 --> 14:19.960]  So we now have proof.
[14:20.140 --> 14:21.580]  We've long suspected this.
[14:21.700 --> 14:29.940]  We now have proof from a federal... the federal surveillance court that...
[14:29.940 --> 14:31.680]  the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
[14:31.760 --> 14:39.840]  We now have proof that our locations are being logged by virtue of our cell phones, which are, in effect, tracking devices.
[14:40.400 --> 14:43.220]  Yeah, Bernie, I just want to highlight one thing that you did say.
[14:43.740 --> 14:46.240]  The president has said, oh, we don't have the names of the people.
[14:46.340 --> 14:47.260]  We just have their phone numbers.
[14:48.300 --> 14:53.340]  Of course, no one in their right mind would believe that the NSA does not have access to the phone book.
[14:53.520 --> 15:01.160]  I mean, this is just... it just goes to show the level of dishonesty that we're still being subjected to, even after some information has come out.
[15:01.820 --> 15:12.880]  And also, other senators, like Senator Dianne Feinstein, who's the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, she was saying, oh, this is only the information that's on your phone bill.
[15:13.160 --> 15:14.480]  That is a lie.
[15:14.640 --> 15:15.380]  She is lying.
[15:15.640 --> 15:26.600]  Because my phone bill doesn't show the location of the people I'm calling, or where I was when I made a call, or other information that she's saying, oh, it's just on your phone bill.
[15:26.600 --> 15:28.860]  Well, you know, people... we're being lied to.
[15:28.920 --> 15:31.240]  We're being lied to by the director of national intelligence.
[15:31.240 --> 15:32.640]  We're being lied to by the president.
[15:32.640 --> 15:34.080]  We're being lied to by senators.
[15:34.360 --> 15:39.980]  We're being lied to by probably internet service providers, too, based on their denial.
[15:40.140 --> 15:48.120]  To address that issue of being lied to, and you mentioned that the director of national intelligence named James Clapper has, in fact, lied.
[15:48.140 --> 15:48.820]  Well, let's look at that.
[15:48.900 --> 15:51.460]  Let's look at what he said.
[15:52.120 --> 15:58.360]  Now, last year, Senator Ron Wyden asked James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, a simple question.
[15:58.440 --> 16:02.860]  Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?
[16:03.600 --> 16:05.300]  Now, Wyden had good reason to worry.
[16:05.360 --> 16:19.840]  As a member of the Intelligence Committee, he had access to classified information and had been warning from the Senate floor that the American people would be shocked, and that's in quotes, to find out how the government was interpreting the FISA Amendments Act and the Patriot Act in secret.
[16:19.840 --> 16:21.900]  Now, Clapper's answer was simple.
[16:22.020 --> 16:23.740]  No, sir, not wittingly.
[16:23.860 --> 16:26.860]  Now, according to an EFF release, this just is not true.
[16:27.060 --> 16:40.340]  We've known for years that the government has been conducting surveillance on millions of ordinary Americans, and now we know that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court issued an order in April requiring Verizon to hand over all call records, foreign or domestic,
[16:40.560 --> 16:43.900]  of every call of every customer to the NSA.
[16:43.900 --> 16:47.120]  Simply put, Clapper's statement was not the truth.
[16:47.240 --> 16:49.340]  Now, here's what's really, really interesting to me.
[16:49.860 --> 16:54.420]  It's their wordplay, how they actually use the English language.
[16:54.600 --> 17:09.960]  Under Department of Defense regulations, information is considered to be collected only after it has been received for use by an employee of a DOD intelligence component, and data acquired by electronic means is collected only when it has been processed into intelligible form.
[17:10.080 --> 17:10.480]  What does that mean?
[17:10.540 --> 17:21.720]  It means that when you ask the Director of National Intelligence, how much information have you collected, he can say none until somebody has actually read it, and in his little world, he won't be lying.
[17:21.880 --> 17:24.160]  So it's really kind of bizarre and weird.
[17:24.620 --> 17:24.860]  Emmanuel?
[17:25.180 --> 17:25.820]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[17:25.980 --> 17:37.240]  Somebody mentioned, I forget who it was, some wag said, that's like saying, that's asking someone like, do you collect books on astronomy and on your bookshelf at home?
[17:37.540 --> 17:48.080]  And if you have a shelf full of these books, and you say no because you didn't open any of the books and read them yet, then you haven't collected those books on your bookshelf.
[17:48.220 --> 17:49.020]  It's ludicrous.
[17:50.000 --> 17:51.540]  It's like a foreign language.
[17:52.140 --> 17:53.260]  That's how ludicrous it is.
[17:53.320 --> 17:53.440]  Mike?
[17:53.680 --> 18:03.640]  I highly recommend that people who have the time look up this clip of Wyden asking Clapper this question, because Wyden clearly knows the games these people play.
[18:05.000 --> 18:08.760]  Clapper had previously denied having dossiers on millions of Americans.
[18:09.000 --> 18:11.700]  So Wyden is like, look, I don't know what a dossier is.
[18:12.060 --> 18:14.160]  Let's leave that word out of this.
[18:14.280 --> 18:16.260]  Just have you collected any information at all?
[18:16.400 --> 18:17.520]  And then Clapper says no.
[18:17.520 --> 18:18.360]  And you can tell.
[18:18.600 --> 18:19.640]  You look at Wyden's face.
[18:19.640 --> 18:26.120]  He knows he is being lied to, but he can't tell us the truth at that point in time.
[18:26.120 --> 18:27.420]  He's got that incredulous look.
[18:27.540 --> 18:28.900]  Did you really just say that?
[18:29.040 --> 18:29.640]  He's not allowed to.
[18:29.820 --> 18:30.240]  Right, right.
[18:30.240 --> 18:33.800]  He wasn't allowed to call him on the lie because it's classified information.
[18:35.640 --> 18:36.120]  Amazing.
[18:36.360 --> 18:42.120]  Well, now, this also was a very interesting quote that I think we should note here.
[18:42.400 --> 18:50.240]  On Thursday, Representative Jim Sensenbrenner, who's a Republican of Wisconsin, he's the guy who introduced the Patriot Act back in 2001.
[18:50.480 --> 18:57.320]  He says, The National Security Agency overstepped its bounds by obtaining that secret order to collect phone log records from millions of Americans.
[18:57.320 --> 19:02.800]  As the author of the Patriot Act, I am extremely troubled by the FBI's interpretation of this legislation.
[19:03.040 --> 19:08.740]  While I believe the Patriot Act appropriately balanced national security concerns and civil rights, I have always worried about potential abuses.
[19:09.280 --> 19:13.100]  Seizing phone records of millions of innocent people is excessive and un-American.
[19:13.600 --> 19:20.900]  And as opposed to the Patriot Act, as I am, when the guy who wrote it expresses these concerns, you damn well better be concerned.
[19:21.260 --> 19:22.940]  I mean, there's just no other way to look at it.
[19:24.560 --> 19:25.960]  So, we have...
[19:26.530 --> 19:28.240]  The story just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
[19:30.380 --> 19:32.340]  Obviously, there's more to it.
[19:32.500 --> 19:41.120]  The justification that we have heard in very many mass media reports is that this helped to stop terrorism.
[19:41.120 --> 19:43.020]  This is an important tool.
[19:44.040 --> 19:56.720]  Now, lawyers and intelligence experts with direct knowledge of two intercepted terrorist plots that the Obama administration says confirm the value of the NSA's vast data mining activities, which includes the other part of this that we're going to get into,
[19:57.860 --> 20:04.400]  these lawyers and intelligence experts have questioned whether these surveillance sweeps played a significant role, if any, in foiling the attacks.
[20:04.680 --> 20:16.180]  The defense of the controversial data collection operations, which were highlighted in a series of Guardian disclosures over the past week, has been led by Dianne Feinstein, chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and her equivalent in the House,
[20:16.340 --> 20:17.220]  Mike Rogers.
[20:17.480 --> 20:25.260]  The two politicians have attempted to justify the NSA's use of vast data sweeps, such as PRISM and Boundless Informant.
[20:25.260 --> 20:39.880]  That's another interesting one, by pointing to the arrests and convictions of would-be New York subway bomber Najibullah Zazi in 2009, and David Headley, who was serving a 35-year prison sentence for his role in the 2008 Mumbai attacks.
[20:40.060 --> 20:42.640]  But court documents, lodged in the U.S.
[20:42.660 --> 20:51.360]  and U.K., as well as interviews with involved parties, suggest that data mining through PRISM and other NSA programs played a relatively minor role in the interception of the two plots.
[20:51.600 --> 21:01.660]  Conventional surveillance techniques in both cases, including old-fashioned tip-offs from intelligence sources in Britain, appeared to have initiated the investigations.
[21:02.020 --> 21:13.060]  Now, in the case of Zazi, who was an Afghan-American who planned to attack the New York subway, the breakthrough appears to have come from Operation Pathway, which was a British investigation, into a suspected terrorism cell in the northwest of England in 2009.
[21:13.060 --> 21:28.640]  That investigation discovered that one of the members of the cell had been in contact with an al-Qaeda associate in Pakistan via the email address, take note here, sana-paktana, that's S-A-N-A underscore P-A-K-H-T-A-N-A at yahoo.com.
[21:28.840 --> 21:30.620]  Yes, yahoo.com.
[21:30.820 --> 21:31.960]  That's what al-Qaeda uses.
[21:32.360 --> 21:34.720]  I love The Guardian because they print email addresses.
[21:35.000 --> 21:35.660]  It's incredible.
[21:35.840 --> 21:40.620]  But what this basically points out is that it's good old-fashioned investigative techniques that worked.
[21:40.620 --> 21:54.760]  So, I think you're right about this, but let's just assume for a moment that this program actually did catch these two guys, one of whom was caught before blowing anything up, one of whom was caught after the attacks in Mumbai.
[21:55.380 --> 22:00.780]  We're spending how many millions and billions of dollars on the NSA to catch two idiots?
[22:00.980 --> 22:05.260]  I mean, we'd save a lot more lives if we redirected this money to heart disease research.
[22:05.420 --> 22:11.380]  And how many thousands and millions of other people's rights were similarly violated in order to catch these two idiots?
[22:11.560 --> 22:13.220]  How much collateral damage is acceptable?
[22:13.500 --> 22:16.720]  How many of all our rights can we all give up if it catches one idiot somewhere?
[22:16.940 --> 22:18.240]  Where's the line to be drawn?
[22:18.660 --> 22:41.240]  One thing I wanted to clarify is the rationale behind the NSA basically lying to us and having all these caches of information is so that if there is some kind of foreign investigation, they can quickly reference their own database for however many years going back and then sift through it to look for the things that they are authorized to investigate.
[22:41.880 --> 22:47.820]  And so that's why they have to have everything on like all the Americans' metadata at least.
[22:47.960 --> 22:51.080]  But it could go beyond that, as I think you guys were pointing out.
[22:51.080 --> 22:55.660]  And that's, of course, trusting them with all this data on the honor system, basically.
[22:55.980 --> 23:01.920]  Okay, we'll let you collect all this data, but you're not really going to use it until maybe you need to pick through it later for something that you feel you need.
[23:02.200 --> 23:14.380]  But in the meantime, I think the fact that this data is being collected at all as a matter of routine, as a matter of systematic nationwide violation of all our rights worldwide, that's just not acceptable.
[23:14.520 --> 23:23.800]  It's not an acceptable tradeoff to me to have that sort of level of invasion of my own rights and my own privacy for the sake of possibly catching someone doing something else down the line.
[23:24.120 --> 23:24.500]  Emmanuel?
[23:24.920 --> 23:25.560]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[23:26.220 --> 23:35.760]  I think the leaker that had been working with NSA and CIA, who was interviewed by The Guardian, Ed Snowden, I think he explained this danger really well.
[23:35.880 --> 23:36.780]  I'm going to quote him.
[23:36.920 --> 23:38.220]  It's a short paragraph here.
[23:38.320 --> 23:44.320]  He says, quote, Because even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded.
[23:44.580 --> 23:54.580]  And the storage capacity of these systems increases every year consistently, by orders of magnitude, to where it's getting to the point where you don't have to have done anything wrong.
[23:54.800 --> 24:00.420]  You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong phone call.
[24:00.580 --> 24:16.660]  And then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis to derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer,
[24:16.800 --> 24:17.260]  end quote.
[24:17.260 --> 24:34.340]  And I'd like to add that, personally, I know there's thousands, thousands of federal criminal laws on the books that fill tens of thousands of pages of text, many of them with very vague language, such as Title 18, Section 1030, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,
[24:34.380 --> 24:35.060]  which we've talked about.
[24:35.160 --> 24:36.860]  Aaron Schwartz was prosecuted under that.
[24:37.600 --> 24:42.460]  Title 18, Section 1029, which I was prosecuted under even before that law appeared in any law books.
[24:43.280 --> 24:48.400]  And this presents an irresistible level of governmental power over people's lives, in my opinion.
[24:48.860 --> 25:07.000]  Far too many laws for any one person to possibly be aware of and understand, combined with a detailed government dossier of their personal communications, movements, and other activities going back for years, makes it possible for the government to criminally prosecute and imprison almost anyone they choose to target.
[25:07.280 --> 25:09.280]  In my opinion, that's one of the government's goals.
[25:09.280 --> 25:13.540]  And I speak that from personal experience, but this is more than Orwellian.
[25:13.680 --> 25:17.800]  This is like Orwell raised in order of magnitude.
[25:20.360 --> 25:24.600]  Well, I'd like to just offer a devil's advocate position here.
[25:25.020 --> 25:32.480]  I think, you know, we're throwing around a lot of terms here, and I think what Bernie has addressed is really the threat of future harm here.
[25:32.480 --> 25:38.500]  If we do something wrong in the future, we may be prosecuted based on the data that the government has collected.
[25:38.500 --> 25:42.180]  And this is some kind of, according to the courts, this isn't enough.
[25:42.280 --> 25:45.440]  This is some kind of amorphous fear that something bad might happen in the future.
[25:46.020 --> 26:00.240]  What I would like to say, and what I think that we're going to address a little bit later, when we talk about some ACLU issues in the lawsuit that they've recently filed, but the problem here is demonstrating articulable harm that is caused by surveillance.
[26:00.240 --> 26:09.140]  And, I mean, to go back to the station and to pitch for one second here, this is what we talked about two weeks ago with the Steam Red Band surveillance special.
[26:09.360 --> 26:10.740]  Where is the harm in surveillance?
[26:10.860 --> 26:11.780]  Why is it bad?
[26:12.020 --> 26:14.840]  How does it necessarily affect our civil liberties?
[26:14.840 --> 26:20.580]  Because if we don't know about surveillance and we don't change our patterns, how are we harmed?
[26:20.980 --> 26:23.120]  Rob had mentioned that our rights were violated.
[26:23.120 --> 26:34.000]  But if we went around and we exercised our right of free expression and our right of free association without knowing that there was a surveillance program in place, how were we harmed?
[26:34.160 --> 26:35.520]  How was our action changed?
[26:35.880 --> 26:44.320]  Now, I think the ACLU lawsuit that's coming up that we're going to address actually can solve this puzzle a little bit, possibly, perhaps.
[26:44.580 --> 27:01.320]  There was just recently a Supreme Court decision handed down just a few months ago that said the threat of, basically, the threat of surveillance on international phone calls between lawyers and clients, that wasn't even sufficient to get into court.
[27:01.660 --> 27:05.380]  So we need to, I think, understand the nature of surveillance a little bit better.
[27:05.460 --> 27:07.020]  We need to understand how it harms us.
[27:07.100 --> 27:09.380]  And we need to be able to articulate that harm.
[27:09.520 --> 27:12.920]  And I think we have to really understand the interaction between the Fourth Amendment.
[27:13.140 --> 27:15.560]  That's the violation of our privacy rights there.
[27:15.560 --> 27:21.140]  How that affects our freedom of association and our freedom of free expression in the First Amendment.
[27:21.340 --> 27:25.380]  How these rights are basically inextricably tied together.
[27:25.660 --> 27:28.620]  Especially if you communicate with people outside the country.
[27:28.860 --> 27:34.360]  Like, if you have foreign friends under a lot of this stuff, it's my understanding that you very well are of interest.
[27:34.360 --> 27:41.420]  And they'll, like, yeah, perhaps be scrutinizing who you associate with or perhaps who your foreign friends or family associate with.
[27:42.520 --> 27:43.640]  Yeah, absolutely.
[27:43.640 --> 27:43.740]  Absolutely.
[27:44.080 --> 27:55.620]  And, you know, this is a very interesting topic, I think, because it raises the question of, well, if we know about the surveillance and we know this is going on, is it better for it to be secret?
[27:55.820 --> 28:00.600]  Because if it's secretive, then it will never affect the way in which we exercise our rights.
[28:00.840 --> 28:06.680]  Now, this is something that nobody is talking about, and you won't hear on any other station, and you haven't seen it in other papers as far as I know.
[28:06.680 --> 28:12.200]  But let's talk about what's been going on in Europe for several years now under the EU Data Retention Directive.
[28:12.340 --> 28:34.060]  Now, what's been going on in Europe is that this exact same, quote, metadata, unquote, has been captured by all communications carriers, including the IP address of someone sending an email, instant message information, all the hardware and software and geolocation information that are associated with making telephone calls that are captured under this Verizon court order have been being captured
[28:34.060 --> 28:35.860]  in Europe for several years.
[28:36.020 --> 28:41.460]  And there doesn't seem to have been a major erosion of civil liberties in the European Union.
[28:42.060 --> 28:47.500]  In other words, if you don't keep logs in the EU, you have to.
[28:47.820 --> 28:49.640]  Yes, you actually have to.
[28:49.700 --> 28:53.580]  All communications carriers under the EU Data Retention Directive are mandated by law.
[28:53.760 --> 29:00.560]  It's a data retention directive by the EU, and then that had to be transposed into national legislation by the EU member states.
[29:00.960 --> 29:08.900]  Everybody's gone about it a bit differently, and there's still many, many difficulties about access to that data and how it's collected.
[29:09.100 --> 29:10.860]  But that data is being collected.
[29:11.420 --> 29:16.300]  So we've talked about data retention on this program before, and I think we've opposed it generally.
[29:16.760 --> 29:22.620]  What we've learned is that, contrary to what you might expect, in the U.S., we have data retention as well.
[29:22.680 --> 29:23.860]  We've just socialized it.
[29:23.860 --> 29:28.940]  The government retains all the data for us so that the communication providers don't have to.
[29:30.300 --> 29:33.220]  I would rather it not be retained at all.
[29:33.440 --> 29:36.960]  But between the two, I'm not really sure what's worse.
[29:37.180 --> 29:42.820]  Well, let's focus a little bit on the actual person who leaked this information.
[29:43.120 --> 29:46.440]  His name came out late last week, Edward Snowden.
[29:48.760 --> 29:59.300]  He released a statement from Hong Kong and basically took a very, what I consider to be a very noble stance against this kind of surveillance and putting his neck on the line.
[29:59.440 --> 30:03.720]  And, you know, it didn't take very long for smears to begin.
[30:03.880 --> 30:07.300]  In fact, Julian Assange was predicting this almost from the start.
[30:07.300 --> 30:12.780]  I'd like to read some of what a friend of his, David Brooks, writing for the New York Times, said.
[30:13.320 --> 30:15.600]  The smears against Edward Snowden have begun.
[30:16.320 --> 30:21.120]  He could not successfully work his way through the institution of high school, they say.
[30:21.260 --> 30:25.480]  And he has not been a regular presence around his mother's house for years.
[30:26.200 --> 30:34.020]  Yeah, that's Jeffrey Toobin of The New Yorker, writes that Snowden is a grandiose narcissist who deserves to be in prison.
[30:34.320 --> 30:44.940]  In a really marvelous piece called 10 Things to Know About Edward Snowden, Politico decided that the most important thing you need to know is that he doesn't have a high school diploma and, number three, he wasn't a friendly neighbor.
[30:45.420 --> 30:47.880]  These smears would be laughable if they weren't sad.
[30:47.880 --> 30:51.900]  When people have nothing intelligent to say, they resort to name-calling and ad hominem attacks.
[30:52.420 --> 30:56.140]  Snowden's relationship with his mother has nothing to do with, well, anything.
[30:56.480 --> 30:57.320]  This isn't new.
[30:57.560 --> 31:03.020]  Whenever revelations like these appear, the media launches a coordinated effort to smear the character of the revealer.
[31:03.320 --> 31:10.340]  Back in the 1970s, a guy named Daniel Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers, which showed that the government had lied about Vietnam and dragged the U.S.
[31:10.440 --> 31:14.080]  into a war that it knew it couldn't win and would kill many more people than they said it would.
[31:14.440 --> 31:16.660]  After the leak, the government went into full attack mode.
[31:16.740 --> 31:18.900]  They even broke into the office of Ellsberg's psychiatrist.
[31:19.240 --> 31:21.740]  They investigated dozens of his family, friends, and colleagues.
[31:21.900 --> 31:25.820]  To find anything damaging that could distract him from what he was saying.
[31:26.160 --> 31:28.740]  The sad thing is, this stuff works.
[31:28.980 --> 31:36.080]  A lot of my friends are incredibly smart people, but when you ask most of them about Julian Assange, I hear comments like, oh, he's a bit creepy, or he seems really narcissistic.
[31:36.240 --> 31:40.720]  People largely stopped talking about what WikiLeaks revealed years ago.
[31:40.900 --> 31:46.560]  And now, discussion of Assange is dominated by the usual cliches about him being arrogant or a rapist, etc.
[31:47.080 --> 31:49.840]  That's when you know the character assassination has worked.
[31:49.840 --> 31:52.420]  When even smart people have forgotten about the real point.
[31:52.600 --> 31:58.700]  As Assange himself said to CNN, do you want to talk about deaths of 104,000 people or my personal life?
[31:58.980 --> 32:01.680]  We can't expect the mainstream media to do a great job on this.
[32:01.880 --> 32:03.780]  Let's step up and do it ourselves.
[32:04.040 --> 32:08.040]  I'd like to also focus on another person who...
[32:08.040 --> 32:11.480]  You might not have heard of this guy, or you might remember him.
[32:12.720 --> 32:14.820]  Before it was known, there was a guy named Mark Klein.
[32:14.820 --> 32:23.980]  He was a telecommunication technician who alleged that AT&T was allowing US spies to siphon vast amounts of customer data without warrants.
[32:24.020 --> 32:27.120]  This is what he has to say about Edward Snowden.
[32:27.280 --> 32:38.640]  My feeling is, and I don't expect this to happen, is Congress should give Edward Snowden retroactive immunity for standing and defending the Constitution.
[32:38.740 --> 32:44.780]  He's done a service for the entire country and he should get retroactive immunity.
[32:45.040 --> 32:50.280]  What's revealed politically by this is that both parties are in on this.
[32:50.360 --> 32:54.920]  This is a bipartisan, secret program against the American people.
[32:55.720 --> 32:58.360]  And both parties are in on it.
[32:58.460 --> 33:02.460]  Everybody's personal data, Facebook, Google, Yahoo.
[33:02.460 --> 33:09.040]  This affects everybody in a very personal way, whereas before it seemed more abstract.
[33:10.150 --> 33:21.160]  And also people know now about how they've been looking at the Associated Press's phone calls in bulk, which is a total violation of the First Amendment.
[33:21.380 --> 33:29.320]  So you put all that together, and I think it's finally dawning on a lot of people that this government and this NSA is totally out of control.
[33:29.920 --> 33:34.560]  And they think the entire American population is suspect.
[33:36.280 --> 33:41.440]  And that certainly rings true, and we're hearing that from so many informed people.
[33:41.900 --> 33:42.160]  Emmanuel?
[33:42.360 --> 33:43.100]  Yes, Bernie, please.
[33:43.260 --> 33:47.720]  There's another quote I'd like to read from Daniel Ellsberg this week, which I think is the quote of the week.
[33:48.040 --> 33:57.640]  And he says, quote, In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material.
[33:57.840 --> 34:01.620]  And that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers from 40 years ago.
[34:02.080 --> 34:02.440]  End quote.
[34:02.740 --> 34:03.600]  That says a lot.
[34:03.980 --> 34:04.120]  Yeah.
[34:04.280 --> 34:16.800]  And to go back to what we were saying about the smear campaign and the beginning character assassination against Edward Snowden, the minute any info about this guy came out, the one thing that struck me was, okay, how are they going to try and make this guy look bad?
[34:16.820 --> 34:26.960]  Now, with people like Assange and like Manning and people like that who have each done this sort of work, but they also...
[34:26.960 --> 34:27.500]  Talk about Ellsberg.
[34:27.600 --> 34:28.060]  Yeah, Ellsberg.
[34:28.120 --> 34:29.320]  They really tried to assassinate him.
[34:29.400 --> 34:29.680]  Right.
[34:29.900 --> 34:31.580]  They literally tried to assassinate him.
[34:31.700 --> 34:32.960]  Yeah, and they've got...
[34:32.960 --> 34:34.900]  But like Assange, okay, he's creepy.
[34:35.020 --> 34:35.560]  Let's use that.
[34:35.720 --> 34:39.400]  Okay, Manning, okay, he had some gender issues and some sexuality issues.
[34:39.560 --> 34:46.480]  Okay, let's use that to make him look more like the other, look more like someone scary, look more like somebody that's going to scare somebody sitting on their couch watching the evening news.
[34:46.840 --> 34:53.280]  And now you have Snowden, who is basically very, very average and normal and unassuming.
[34:53.560 --> 34:55.680]  And okay, what can we get on him?
[34:56.220 --> 34:58.340]  He doesn't spend a lot of time at his mom's house.
[34:58.600 --> 34:59.700]  He didn't finish high school.
[34:59.840 --> 35:00.820]  I didn't finish high school either.
[35:00.820 --> 35:04.140]  I don't have a high school diploma because I got out a year early.
[35:04.260 --> 35:20.140]  But like that's something else that we can just watch this and watch them reaching for things to say about this guy and consider that if it's you, you out there listening to this or anyone you know or anyone in your family, they can find things like this to say about any of you.
[35:20.340 --> 35:23.640]  And that's in part because they're gathering so much information on you.
[35:24.000 --> 35:27.260]  So like who is so clean?
[35:27.400 --> 35:28.200]  Who is so normal?
[35:28.340 --> 35:32.240]  Who is so regular and average Joe that they would be immune to any of this?
[35:32.360 --> 35:32.700]  Nobody.
[35:33.140 --> 35:33.580]  Nobody.
[35:33.580 --> 35:34.380]  None of us are safe.
[35:34.540 --> 35:35.120]  Nobody at all.
[35:35.120 --> 35:37.320]  Now, I want to focus on PRISM.
[35:37.400 --> 35:50.820]  We haven't really talked much about PRISM, which is the NSA program that allegedly exists to pull information out of major providers such as Google and AOL and Apple.
[35:51.520 --> 36:00.860]  And what's interesting, in addition to the character assassination of Edward Snowden, is the denials that we're hearing that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, that these kinds of things are not happening.
[36:01.100 --> 36:04.500]  In fact, every one of the companies, I believe, has issued a strongly worded denial.
[36:04.920 --> 36:15.840]  And we need to analyze this and see if there's any possibility that maybe it's been overgeneralized or there's something inaccurate about it.
[36:15.900 --> 36:17.000]  And if so, what?
[36:17.200 --> 36:21.320]  And if this is, in fact, a major story and just what these technological companies are saying.
[36:21.440 --> 36:21.560]  Mike?
[36:21.700 --> 36:28.720]  So I read the denials from Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook and Larry Page of Google.
[36:28.720 --> 36:32.460]  And the first thing that's striking is that these denials are almost the same.
[36:32.760 --> 36:33.660]  It's really...
[36:33.660 --> 36:36.480]  There are people who've taken and highlighted the similarities.
[36:36.760 --> 36:37.640]  They say the same thing.
[36:37.800 --> 36:39.680]  So they say, we never heard of the PRISM program.
[36:39.840 --> 36:40.880]  And that's totally believable.
[36:41.100 --> 36:45.000]  Like, why would the NSA tell them the name of the program to which they're contributing data?
[36:45.860 --> 36:52.360]  And then they go into this carefully worded thing where we deny this allegation and that allegation.
[36:52.360 --> 36:54.700]  And we don't know what's going on.
[36:55.120 --> 36:56.120]  It's possible.
[36:56.500 --> 37:03.420]  One possibility is that the NSA is in these companies' data centers without the company's permission.
[37:03.900 --> 37:09.200]  That would allow Google to be telling the truth and the slides to be telling the truth.
[37:09.440 --> 37:13.060]  Another possibility is that these companies are required to lie to us.
[37:13.180 --> 37:15.560]  They're lying to us because they want to.
[37:15.800 --> 37:32.820]  We really don't know what's going on, but we do know that Glenn Greenwald, who has seen the entire slide deck and knows probably a little more about this than the rest of us, has heard the company's denials and said, you know, they don't convince him in the slightest.
[37:33.120 --> 37:33.720]  So who knows?
[37:33.860 --> 37:39.880]  Well, I'd like to look at one critic of the actual leaker himself.
[37:40.260 --> 37:45.700]  This comes from Bob Seska from the dailybanter.com.
[37:45.700 --> 37:54.380]  And he takes issue with the phrase direct access that reporter Glenn Greenwald used as an unobstructed direct server access.
[37:54.680 --> 37:56.240]  He used this phrase four times in his article.
[37:56.560 --> 38:02.940]  Most prominently in his lead, the National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of Google, Facebook, Apple, and other U.S.
[38:03.080 --> 38:06.100]  internet giants, according to a top secret document obtained by The Guardian.
[38:06.580 --> 38:11.440]  Unless the tech companies were collectively lying, Greenwald's use of direct access is inaccurate.
[38:11.440 --> 38:15.560]  And if it's inaccurate, the most alarming aspect of this NSA story is untrue.
[38:15.700 --> 38:22.120]  I find it interesting that he's concluding that it's inaccurate, presumably based on the denials of these companies.
[38:22.120 --> 38:25.160]  So I'm not quite sure where the proof is that it's inaccurate.
[38:25.700 --> 38:35.780]  On Twitter, Greenwald defended his reporting by reiterating that the NSA said within the PRISM document that there had been collection directly from the servers of these U.S.
[38:35.900 --> 38:38.000]  service providers, Microsoft, Yahoo, etc.
[38:38.440 --> 38:45.220]  But this could mean that the data was drawn from the servers, vetted, and handed over to the NSA per Google's stated process of legal vetting.
[38:45.320 --> 38:55.780]  And if the data was made available, it's possible that the tech companies posted it on a server for the NSA analyst to download, just as you might download a file from work or a friend via Dropbox or an FTP server.
[38:56.120 --> 39:06.320]  Regardless, it seems as if Greenwald's entire story hinges on a semantic interpretation of the PRISM language, and his mistake was to leap from collection directly from servers to direct access.
[39:06.940 --> 39:19.940]  Maybe it's me, but to me, those two things don't seem that far apart and there's a whole lot of conditions in this defense here that, yes, you know, it could have been done this way and they could have put it on this server and that would mean collection directly from servers.
[39:20.180 --> 39:29.480]  It just seems like a lot of leeway is being given to the technology companies and I'm not seeing the evidence that this definitely was not happening.
[39:29.920 --> 39:30.320]  Alex?
[39:30.320 --> 39:54.380]  There's no question that a lot here is hinging on semantics and as Mike rightly pointed out, there's so much similarity, semantic similarity in all of the denials from the various technology companies and in that similarity you often find the statements that they have only released data and they only released data in accordance with formal legal process or upon receiving an order from a court of
[39:54.380 --> 39:56.580]  competent jurisdiction, something like that.
[39:56.840 --> 40:05.080]  Now, what this brings up then, raises is, okay, so they're doing it in response to a court order, but what's the court order?
[40:05.540 --> 40:07.000]  What's the scope of the court order?
[40:07.100 --> 40:07.980]  What are the terms of it?
[40:08.040 --> 40:08.720]  What are the conditions?
[40:08.940 --> 40:09.620]  How does it work?
[40:09.760 --> 40:13.980]  What was the evidence that was submitted to the court to obtain that order?
[40:14.120 --> 40:15.080]  What are the government statements?
[40:15.380 --> 40:19.520]  What did the court rely upon and what's their legal reasoning behind their opinion?
[40:19.760 --> 40:24.000]  And this is another thing that the ACLU is trying to find out.
[40:24.140 --> 40:29.800]  They're trying to get the legal reasoning behind the foreign Unintelligence Surveillance Courts orders.
[40:30.240 --> 40:33.720]  And I think this is something that, you know, we're going to get to again in a few minutes.
[40:33.960 --> 40:38.260]  But because of this semantic similarity, I think that there may be veracity.
[40:38.460 --> 40:39.400]  I also agree.
[40:39.520 --> 40:40.580]  I think that they're telling the truth.
[40:40.720 --> 40:46.560]  But what I think remains opaque is the scope of these orders and what went into their creation.
[40:47.420 --> 40:56.920]  And the other interesting thing is that the entire process, we just don't really know technically what's going on in these companies because they won't really say in any sort of technical detail.
[40:57.460 --> 41:02.380]  And the entire... just the fact that they're like, yeah, maybe they have like a FTP server.
[41:02.500 --> 41:03.500]  It's really like simple.
[41:04.980 --> 41:08.820]  And then all this process for, you know, getting court orders and all of that.
[41:08.920 --> 41:16.160]  I mean, it provides a really good cover for anything else that's going on that we will never know or cannot know or ought not to know that's...
[41:16.560 --> 41:32.920]  Perhaps more expansive or more direct as in, like, just taking everything in real time and sending it to a processing facility and, you know, being able to go through it later without, you know, for perhaps things you didn't get an order in time for.
[41:33.440 --> 41:39.420]  And then, you know, perhaps the company got rid of it or something like that as part of their normal operations.
[41:40.720 --> 41:41.420]  Well, okay.
[41:41.600 --> 41:47.060]  You know, I just have to stop for a moment here because I did just look at the incoming tally.
[41:47.520 --> 41:49.160]  And I want to thank the people who have called in.
[41:49.260 --> 41:50.800]  A few people have called in, but not enough.
[41:50.940 --> 41:59.600]  We need more people to call, pledge support to the radio station so that we can keep having this conversation and not have to break up the entire hour with fundraising.
[41:59.600 --> 42:05.580]  We are in dire straits here at the station, but the future is promising.
[42:05.900 --> 42:08.140]  We're offering a bunch of cool things.
[42:08.140 --> 42:19.300]  If you call 516-620-3602, you can get the Off the Hook DVD archive, for instance, for a pledge of, let's see, for a pledge of $125.
[42:19.380 --> 42:20.880]  You can get that.
[42:21.020 --> 42:27.880]  You can get the OM DVD collection, OHM, the hacker camp taking place this summer in the Netherlands.
[42:27.880 --> 42:32.760]  You can get that for a pledge of $125, 516-620-3602.
[42:33.300 --> 42:38.920]  You can also get the digital audio flash drive for a pledge of $75.
[42:39.420 --> 42:44.040]  That's a device you can just leave on the table and record people surreptitiously yourself, just like the NSA does.
[42:44.760 --> 42:53.000]  And you can get it, plus a DVD set of Steve Rambam's talks at the Hope Conferences, all about privacy and surveillance and things like that, for a pledge of $125.
[42:53.620 --> 42:59.560]  The important thing is that you call up and support the radio station while we're having this conversation so we can continue to be here in the future.
[42:59.560 --> 43:00.620]  Imagine if we weren't.
[43:00.660 --> 43:02.480]  Imagine if we weren't here to have this conversation.
[43:02.680 --> 43:04.500]  You would have to rely on the mass media.
[43:04.500 --> 43:07.540]  516-620-3602 is the number to call.
[43:07.960 --> 43:11.860]  You can call any time, that phone number, and support the radio station.
[43:11.960 --> 43:14.720]  You can also go online, give2wbai.org.
[43:14.900 --> 43:17.400]  That's the number 2, give2wbai.org.
[43:17.440 --> 43:21.940]  So please, I hope by the end of the show we'll see a lot more calls coming in, a lot more results.
[43:22.760 --> 43:32.540]  It's essential because one day this frequency could be replaced by something a lot more acceptable to those people that don't want to curtail our freedom of speech.
[43:32.640 --> 43:32.880]  Right, guys?
[43:33.220 --> 43:37.440]  Yeah, 516-620-3602 is the number to call, as Emmanuel said.
[43:37.660 --> 43:40.500]  And I know we do this a lot.
[43:40.500 --> 43:41.700]  We ask for your support.
[43:41.860 --> 43:46.120]  But it is really the only way that we can maintain our independence.
[43:46.540 --> 43:50.920]  The other radio stations that you may listen to, they don't say, hey, give us money.
[43:51.040 --> 43:56.080]  They say, hey, Verizon, hey, Chrysler, give us some money.
[43:56.200 --> 43:58.540]  And then we'll sell you the ears of our listeners.
[43:58.780 --> 43:59.880]  We don't do that.
[44:00.360 --> 44:04.620]  We ask you, you call 516-620-3602.
[44:04.820 --> 44:13.600]  And we ask you to support us directly, not when you buy a car, some like tiny percentage of it goes to provide you with the entertainment.
[44:14.180 --> 44:18.320]  And so this way we have our independence and we can report stories like this.
[44:18.440 --> 44:21.220]  We can report all kinds of things unfettered.
[44:21.320 --> 44:25.720]  We don't have to worry that we might offend Verizon and they might pull their advertising dollars.
[44:26.000 --> 44:29.180]  So please, 516-620-3602.
[44:30.320 --> 44:34.400]  Then we, and you know, if you call now, we won't have to spend more time asking you.
[44:35.000 --> 44:35.600]  All right.
[44:35.740 --> 44:42.680]  I trust our listeners to do the right thing because you've gotten us here since the year 1960 when this radio station first went on the air.
[44:43.340 --> 44:45.660]  It's been supported 100% by our listeners.
[44:46.200 --> 44:48.860]  So let's get back to the story because it's so fascinating.
[44:48.860 --> 44:54.600]  The NSA leaks, Edward Snowden and PRISM and all that kind of thing.
[44:54.860 --> 44:59.200]  The American Civil Liberties Union, of course, has been involved heavily in this.
[44:59.320 --> 45:02.000]  In fact, the ACLU has sued senior U.S.
[45:02.100 --> 45:03.020]  government officials.
[45:03.340 --> 45:11.140]  They did this yesterday to challenge the constitutionality of the National Security Agency's telephone surveillance program, saying it violates rights to free speech and privacy.
[45:11.760 --> 45:18.640]  This suit asked the court to immediately halt the NSA's vast tracking program of telephone calls, declare the program illegal, and ordered the U.S.
[45:18.760 --> 45:21.900]  government to purge all databases of the call records.
[45:22.340 --> 45:25.600]  So it's good to know people are looking out for us.
[45:25.860 --> 45:36.340]  Joining us on the phone right now is ACLU National Security Fellow Patrick Toomey, who I believe is the author of one of these complaints.
[45:36.740 --> 45:37.620]  Patrick, are you with us?
[45:38.360 --> 45:38.740]  Yeah, I'm here.
[45:38.860 --> 45:39.680]  Thanks for having me, Emmanuel.
[45:39.680 --> 45:41.180]  Well, thank you for everything you're doing.
[45:41.300 --> 45:44.460]  Can you tell us something about the lawsuit you're involved in?
[45:45.480 --> 45:45.940]  Sure.
[45:46.040 --> 45:57.620]  The lawsuit we filed yesterday challenges the government's dragnet collection of phone records for Verizon business customers, and we believe that that's not permitted by the Fourth Amendment or the First Amendment, nor the Patriot Act.
[45:59.000 --> 45:59.460]  Okay.
[46:00.060 --> 46:03.620]  And what kind of reaction have you gotten so far?
[46:04.720 --> 46:15.200]  So far, we've actually had a lot of support from people all across the country who've been reaching out to the ACLU to say that they support our effort, and they actually have been asking for ways that they can help us.
[46:15.320 --> 46:30.260]  And we love to hear that from people, and we urge people especially to look at our complaint, to look at our website, and to reach out to their congressmen about ways that they can urge the government to reform our surveillance laws.
[46:31.140 --> 46:38.660]  You know, Patrick, I think you're absolutely right there, and I think you make a fantastic point that, you know, this is really a very, very hot-button political issue.
[46:38.840 --> 46:43.260]  It threatens to be... to really sully the Obama administration's legacy.
[46:43.480 --> 46:45.900]  And if it's a political issue, we need political action.
[46:46.040 --> 46:49.360]  Without public support, there can be no political action.
[46:49.640 --> 47:01.960]  And I think, you know, we can request something like another church committee to look into these surveillance overreaching by the NSA in a surveillance capacity.
[47:02.040 --> 47:06.600]  I think we can ask for these types of things, and ultimately, they may be stonewalled.
[47:07.020 --> 47:14.220]  And ultimately, you know, do you think that this case would, you know, is going to release any further information that would make something like that possible?
[47:15.440 --> 47:30.600]  We have high hopes that this litigation will get a more transparent and public court involved in really adjudicating the Fourth Amendment constitutional issues and First Amendment issues that this dragnet surveillance raises.
[47:30.800 --> 47:34.560]  And we're optimistic, because right now, the only court that's looked at this is a secret court.
[47:34.560 --> 47:41.740]  And we believe that the public should understand the ways that our judges are interpreting our laws and what they mean.
[47:42.420 --> 47:45.240]  Well, I think this raises two issues here as well.
[47:46.140 --> 47:54.700]  The ACLU, if I'm not mistaken, also filed a motion to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court asking them to reveal the details of what the government submitted.
[47:54.700 --> 47:55.280]  Is that correct?
[47:55.780 --> 47:57.020]  That's exactly right.
[47:57.040 --> 48:14.640]  We filed a motion with that secret court on Monday asking it to release essentially the legal reasoning behind the order that was released by the Guardian permitting the government to collect this mass amount of Americans' phone records.
[48:14.640 --> 48:21.000]  And what if... we haven't really seen much coming from the FISC, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
[48:21.220 --> 48:23.180]  What if these are summary orders?
[48:23.200 --> 48:27.300]  What if the information that is submitted is submitted and that remains secret?
[48:27.860 --> 48:33.000]  And what the judge essentially says in his opinion, it's not a well-reasoned, lengthy legal opinion.
[48:33.120 --> 48:40.760]  What if he just simply says, based on the information provided to me, I issue the order in accordance with the government's request?
[48:40.880 --> 48:43.800]  What would the ACLU do in response to something like that?
[48:45.660 --> 48:52.060]  We really think that there is more behind the FISC opinions than just summary orders, and we hope to get them.
[48:52.180 --> 49:01.560]  We know from the Freedom of Information Act request that the ACLU has filed that the government has disclosed not the content of those orders, but their existence.
[49:01.740 --> 49:09.540]  And there seems to be at least one 86-page opinion out there that has been listed as withheld by the government.
[49:09.840 --> 49:19.480]  So we don't know what it contains, but we think that it probably addresses the constitutional and legal reasoning that the court supplied in order to approve these programs.
[49:20.640 --> 49:21.140]  Patrick?
[49:22.120 --> 49:22.280]  Yes.
[49:22.520 --> 49:23.960]  Hi, this is Bernie in Pennsylvania.
[49:23.960 --> 49:31.620]  I just wanted to ask, what about these revelations this past week from Ed Snowden, who had worked with the NSA?
[49:31.920 --> 49:42.420]  What about these recent revelations and his foreign intelligence surveillance court order made the ACLU rush to get this out now?
[49:42.520 --> 49:43.680]  Why didn't you do it sooner?
[49:45.260 --> 49:53.780]  We have filed lawsuits previously to challenge the government surveillance programs based on what we knew from the face of the laws.
[49:53.960 --> 50:05.580]  But the courts have been very resistant to hearing those efforts because we were not previously able to show with certainty that our communications or those of our plaintiffs had been, in fact, monitored.
[50:05.580 --> 50:20.240]  But with the disclosure of this order and the fact that the ACLU is a Verizon customer, and in fact, I'm participating in this show from a Verizon phone, so there's a log of this record in the government's database or soon will be.
[50:20.960 --> 50:25.820]  So that's what gives us now a chance to really litigate this case on the merits.
[50:26.540 --> 50:28.400]  So now the ACLU has standing.
[50:28.540 --> 50:33.980]  And before, the courts rejected that the ACLU had any standing in this kind of a thing.
[50:34.760 --> 50:36.080]  That's exactly right.
[50:36.320 --> 50:38.880]  The standing hurdle has been a hard one for us.
[50:38.960 --> 50:50.760]  And the courts in these other cases have accepted the government's insistence that the type of surveillance and monitoring of communications that we were alleging was entirely speculative.
[50:51.040 --> 51:00.940]  But the revelations from the Guardian and Mr. Snowden have really shown that the ACLU was legitimately pursuing its rights.
[51:01.280 --> 51:04.760]  And that, in fact, those cases should have proceeded.
[51:05.640 --> 51:13.680]  Patrick, is it possible, do you think, or I'm playing devil's advocate here, that the information is still speculative?
[51:13.900 --> 51:15.800]  And we know that the information is being collected.
[51:16.080 --> 51:23.440]  But the targeting, it seems like, has been the real issue in terms of demonstrable harm, especially look after Amnesty v.
[51:23.440 --> 51:34.780]  Clapper, the recent opinion from the Supreme Court, where they found that these phone calls going overseas to foreign aid workers and lawyers back at home in the U.S., that that harm was speculative.
[51:35.180 --> 51:36.820]  Here, it could also, they could split hairs.
[51:37.000 --> 51:45.700]  Could the court also say, you have not demonstrated sufficiently that your particular clients were, in fact, targeted by some kind of data mining activity?
[51:45.860 --> 51:49.840]  We may have collected intelligence about them, but we never actually looked at it.
[51:49.900 --> 51:51.540]  If we didn't look at it, how could they be harmed?
[51:52.640 --> 52:06.160]  I think that the seizure of the records alone, which is clear that it's occurred from the face of the order, is enough of an injury in the court's jurisprudence to get past that hurdle at the first stage of the case.
[52:06.280 --> 52:11.660]  And I think the government will make the argument that you raise that the information is just being collected.
[52:11.800 --> 52:13.020]  We're hearing that from them already.
[52:13.240 --> 52:21.540]  But under the Fourth Amendment, the government's not simply permitted to collect all of our information and then come up with a reasonable suspicion later.
[52:21.760 --> 52:23.580]  That really turns the Fourth Amendment on its head.
[52:23.820 --> 52:35.160]  Patrick, I'd like to ask about one aspect of all this that disturbs me, and that's... and if nothing of this turns out to be even true, this being revealed is significant.
[52:35.220 --> 52:47.520]  And that's that the majority of people in the United States, according to this Washington Post poll, say that the NSA's program tracking the telephone records of millions of Americans is an acceptable way for the government to investigate terrorism.
[52:48.240 --> 52:55.020]  Substantial minority, though, 41% says it's unacceptable, but the majority still seems to think this kind of thing is okay.
[52:55.020 --> 53:01.320]  And I just fear that that could be seen as a green light to all kinds of future surveillance by various entities.
[53:01.560 --> 53:02.760]  What do you make of those numbers?
[53:03.840 --> 53:12.460]  No, we share your concerns, but we think that people are still... this is still sinking in, and that the public conversation around this issue is just starting.
[53:12.780 --> 53:21.840]  And it's only going to get more complex and more involved, you know, on the basis of this lawsuit, on the basis of congressional hearings.
[53:22.040 --> 53:36.560]  And we think that the public is really in a position to continue learning about what the government is doing, and is entitled to know that, and that, you know, people will come around to understand the extent of the government's wiretapping as they learn more.
[53:37.080 --> 53:40.420]  Yeah, Emmanuel, I just want to add, like, this survey was done.
[53:40.560 --> 53:42.720]  We don't know what the government is doing.
[53:42.820 --> 53:47.800]  The government fights very hard to prevent us from knowing what they're doing.
[53:48.060 --> 53:54.140]  So it's a little bit dishonest to ask people, is whatever the government's doing, we don't know what that is.
[53:54.160 --> 53:54.700]  Is that okay?
[53:55.340 --> 53:57.300]  I don't know that I could answer that question.
[53:57.320 --> 54:01.160]  I certainly don't know how, you know, a survey population could.
[54:01.200 --> 54:03.340]  Well, I think it's the unknown that's a part of the question.
[54:03.620 --> 54:05.860]  Basically, are you okay with them doing anything?
[54:06.020 --> 54:09.000]  Looking into your phone records, reading your email, things like that.
[54:09.080 --> 54:16.420]  And a disturbing number of people seem to think that, well, I'm not up to anything, but that's, if I was up to something, I should be worried, but I'm not.
[54:16.780 --> 54:23.200]  The thing is, 20 years from now, when you're running for office or something, things will come up.
[54:23.400 --> 54:29.060]  Things are guaranteed to come up that will embarrass you, that will thwart your efforts.
[54:29.380 --> 54:32.220]  And nobody has nothing to hide.
[54:32.960 --> 54:35.380]  Nobody has no interest in privacy.
[54:35.660 --> 54:37.320]  And we all have that particular right.
[54:37.400 --> 54:39.800]  That right is being erased little by little.
[54:39.800 --> 54:44.200]  And if we just let it happen, we accept it, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
[54:44.680 --> 54:45.060]  Kyle?
[54:45.200 --> 54:46.500]  I think that's exactly right.
[54:46.500 --> 54:52.800]  And what the government is really asserting the right to create here is essentially a time machine, where it can gather everything.
[54:53.060 --> 55:06.160]  And at any point in the future, when it decides it wants to look into you on whatever basis, it can go back and pick out the pieces at that point in time and build its story from there rather than having to do it the other way around.
[55:06.680 --> 55:07.500]  Yeah, absolutely.
[55:07.740 --> 55:10.500]  And I think that people aren't, it hasn't really sunk in yet.
[55:10.720 --> 55:14.140]  And the discussion, as we're talking about it now, I don't think it's just getting started.
[55:14.260 --> 55:17.880]  I think people really need to actually invest some thought in it.
[55:18.060 --> 55:27.980]  I think there's the quick, man, I'm this kind of person, you know, I'm very, you know, I'm in the public or I'm not, or, you know, I'm a good guy this way or that.
[55:28.120 --> 55:31.940]  But you really have to think about it and be a bit imaginative.
[55:32.260 --> 55:34.180]  I mean, this is like high technology.
[55:34.340 --> 55:38.040]  There are things that haven't been developed yet, and that will continue to develop.
[55:38.320 --> 55:40.640]  And there may be things that you could do with this data.
[55:40.780 --> 55:46.300]  I mean, in old libraries, like information, the way it was stored back then, we didn't store it in the same way.
[55:46.420 --> 55:48.680]  And we weren't storing the same kind of information.
[55:49.100 --> 55:55.500]  And in a like way, reading and doing those kinds of things, like actually enjoying the information was done in a different way.
[55:55.640 --> 56:02.180]  And so there are technologies and processes, I think, going forward that we should be a bit concerned about, because you may not care about it today.
[56:02.400 --> 56:11.320]  But given some human or machine development, that processes the information in a way we can't even foresee yet, you might have a different attitude then.
[56:11.860 --> 56:12.300]  Emmanuel?
[56:12.780 --> 56:13.360]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[56:13.560 --> 56:25.500]  I just wanted to say, I think one of the reasons the public seems to not be terribly excited about this is because they're being lied to by the President of the United States, or at least misled by the President of the United States, by the Director of National Intelligence,
[56:25.500 --> 56:42.660]  James Clapper, who at ACLU has just sued this week, being lied to by Senator Dianne Feinstein, who is the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and by other top-level politicians and agency heads.
[56:43.080 --> 56:59.380]  We are being lied to, and we're being expected to allow our government to do things based on the lies that we're being told, which is why I am so pleased that the ACLU is taking this effort to get the truth out to the public.
[56:59.620 --> 57:05.880]  And I wanted, Patrick, to tell us, listeners, how they could support the ACLU's efforts.
[57:06.080 --> 57:09.220]  Is there, I guess the website is ACLU.org.
[57:09.220 --> 57:10.900]  They could get more information about this, Patrick?
[57:11.620 --> 57:12.000]  That's right.
[57:12.000 --> 57:13.640]  There's plenty of information on our website.
[57:13.640 --> 57:24.460]  There's a useful explainer about the content of the FISC order that was disclosed last week, and there is also information about the website, sorry, the lawsuit that we filed yesterday.
[57:24.460 --> 57:43.480]  But we also think that in addition to visiting our website, that you should visit your congressman's website or call his office and, you know, let him know that that that call is being recorded, not just maybe by him, but by the NSA, and tell them that you're not happy about what you're seeing our government doing in terms of our records and its surveillance.
[57:43.900 --> 57:52.600]  Patrick, we only have a couple of seconds left, but I want to ask you quickly, what do you make of the denials by the various technology companies on this particular issue?
[57:53.980 --> 58:03.600]  You know, we're still trying to make sense of that ourselves, but we know that the, we believe that the surveillance is very extensive, although we don't know technically how it's happening.
[58:04.900 --> 58:05.520]  All right.
[58:05.580 --> 58:07.500]  Well, that's certainly something that we're going to be following.
[58:07.740 --> 58:20.080]  I know Google has issued a public letter asking for permission from the federal government to release more information so they can prove that they're not culpable in all of this, which is a genius PR move.
[58:20.080 --> 58:23.880]  It really is to put the government on the spot like that.
[58:23.940 --> 58:27.160]  And I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the response, if any, to that will be.
[58:27.380 --> 58:28.220]  Emmanuel, real quick.
[58:28.340 --> 58:28.740]  Real quick.
[58:28.820 --> 58:48.940]  I just wanted to say, those 41 slides, only five of which have been replaced to the public, that this leaker gave to the Guardian, there's still a whole lot of these classified documents that haven't been made available to the public yet, but are in the hands of the Guardian and perhaps the Washington Post.
[58:49.160 --> 58:53.060]  And that, I think, will contain the technical information that we need to know what's really going on.
[58:53.100 --> 59:01.840]  I really wish they had given out that information to other organizations as well, like Cryptome, WikiLeaks, or even us, because we would have released it all.
[59:02.380 --> 59:05.200]  But we'll find out, I guess, more in the days and weeks ahead.
[59:05.540 --> 59:10.160]  Patrick, I want to thank you very much for being a guest here and wish you the best of luck with that lawsuit.
[59:10.860 --> 59:16.180]  And stay tuned, folks, because there's an interview with Julian Assange coming up on a special episode of Democracy Now!
[59:16.540 --> 59:17.920]  OTH at 2600.com.
[59:17.920 --> 59:18.720]  That's our email address.
[59:18.980 --> 59:19.180]  Thanks.
[59:19.300 --> 59:19.500]  Good night.
[59:21.240 --> 59:28.580]  Do you know what they've got on you?
[59:30.500 --> 59:37.660]  They know everything you do.
[59:39.280 --> 59:42.080]  Don't make a sound.
[59:42.260 --> 59:44.300]  They're all around.
[59:44.300 --> 59:46.660]  They see it all.
[59:46.800 --> 59:49.060]  They hear it all.
[59:49.460 --> 59:53.360]  Each time you call, no fireball.
[01:00:07.460 --> 01:00:14.280]  Do you trust that they'll do you right?
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[01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:28.520]  You're listening to WBAI New York.
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[01:00:30.660 --> 01:00:32.720]  with an interview with Julian Assange.
[01:00:42.660 --> 01:00:47.540]  This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, the War and Peace Report.
[01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:49.900]  I'm Amy Goodman with Nermeen Shaikh.
[01:00:50.180 --> 01:00:54.700]  And our guest is Julian Assange, the Editor-in-Chief, the founder of WikiLeaks.