[00:00.000 --> 00:01.660]  ...a $5 contribution and it's yours.
[00:01.840 --> 00:03.840]  If you want to get Cypherpunks, his book, $80.
[00:04.220 --> 00:05.900]  Put them together for $120 or $10 a month.
[00:06.100 --> 00:07.120]  Long Island, we need you.
[00:07.200 --> 00:08.100]  Connecticut, are you listening?
[00:08.220 --> 00:09.320]  New Jersey, we need your support.
[00:09.400 --> 00:14.160]  New Rochelle and Yonkers and anywhere in Manhattan, Staten Island, Queens, Brooklyn, we need your support.
[00:14.660 --> 00:17.100]  516-620-3602.
[00:17.720 --> 00:19.780]  516-620-3602.
[00:19.940 --> 00:23.760]  Or you can pledge online at give2wbai.org.
[00:23.860 --> 00:25.680]  That's give2wbai.org.
[00:25.860 --> 00:27.380]  Whatever you can do, do it now.
[00:27.520 --> 00:28.320]  Your call counts.
[00:28.440 --> 00:29.220]  We need your support.
[00:29.220 --> 00:30.160]  I'm Amy Goodman.
[00:30.300 --> 00:31.180]  Thank you so much.
[00:33.920 --> 00:37.900]  And you are listening to WBAI New York.
[00:38.080 --> 00:39.560]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:39.840 --> 00:42.320]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:41.340 --> 01:46.560]  Hi, I'm Michael Sutton, head of product development here in Washington at the National Security Agency.
[01:46.940 --> 01:52.260]  Lately, we've been catching a lot of flack from you and, well, the entire nation about our intrusive practices.
[01:52.260 --> 01:55.640]  Look, on behalf of the entire NSA, we're sorry.
[01:56.100 --> 02:02.020]  To make it up to you, we're very excited to introduce our latest product to the market, NSA Flicks.
[02:02.820 --> 02:04.820]  NSA Flicks, but I already have Netflix.
[02:05.140 --> 02:05.360]  No.
[02:05.740 --> 02:06.880]  Allow me to explain.
[02:06.880 --> 02:11.960]  On Netflix, you have access to hundreds of thousands of hours of premium entertainment content.
[02:12.260 --> 02:20.840]  But on NSA Flicks, we can offer you literally millions of hours of unedited, raw phone calls, videos, and exciting email threads.
[02:21.120 --> 02:25.280]  Everyone watches Mad Men on Netflix, but why not watch real alcoholics cheat on their wives?
[02:25.280 --> 02:32.760]  Sure, Netflix has exciting categories like quirky female sitcoms, cult comedies from the 1980s, and Because You Watched Weeds.
[02:32.980 --> 02:37.860]  But with NSA Flicks, we have an equal amount of exciting categories to browse through.
[02:38.360 --> 02:40.380]  Try elderly people using Skype.
[02:41.080 --> 02:42.000]  Laugh a minute.
[02:42.560 --> 02:44.180]  Puppy store security footage.
[02:44.700 --> 02:44.900]  Aw.
[02:45.280 --> 02:49.120]  And maybe your ex on the phone with anyone that isn't you.
[02:51.820 --> 02:53.140]  That's more of a sad one.
[02:53.320 --> 02:55.180]  Payment could not be easier.
[02:55.280 --> 03:01.420]  For only $7.99 a month, we'll give you access to unlimited streaming on a wide variety of devices.
[03:01.740 --> 03:06.340]  Now you can read what your boss really thinks about you, all from the comfort of your Xbox 360.
[03:06.920 --> 03:07.940]  Don't like streaming?
[03:08.180 --> 03:13.360]  For the same price, we'll send you one DVD crammed with private conversations every month.
[03:13.460 --> 03:17.400]  And as an added bonus, every other month, you'll get two DVDs.
[03:17.600 --> 03:19.260]  The second, Love Actually.
[03:19.560 --> 03:24.660]  To begin your one-month free trial, simply log on and enter all of your personal information.
[03:26.680 --> 03:27.520]  I'm just kidding.
[03:28.460 --> 03:29.880]  We already have all that.
[03:30.700 --> 03:31.500]  All of it.
[03:31.780 --> 03:39.560]  Sometimes we play social security number bingo, where we just read social security numbers and then say, bingo, there's no game.
[03:40.380 --> 03:42.980]  We just like knowing everything about you.
[03:43.160 --> 03:44.120]  It's easy to get started.
[03:44.360 --> 03:48.940]  To begin your one-month free trial, simply say, yes, I want this.
[03:49.120 --> 03:53.580]  Out loud, right now, preferably near a Verizon phone, but we'll get it anyway.
[03:53.780 --> 03:56.320]  And we'll install it on your everything.
[03:56.320 --> 03:56.420]  I think.
[04:01.030 --> 04:01.430]  Great.
[04:02.170 --> 04:04.510]  Welcome to NSA flicks, everyone.
[04:06.370 --> 04:06.770]  Okay.
[04:07.190 --> 04:11.390]  I don't know how signals got crossed there, but that should not have got out of the air.
[04:11.950 --> 04:12.930]  Rob, what was that?
[04:13.370 --> 04:16.570]  That was a nice little spoof by a group called Official Comedy.
[04:16.730 --> 04:18.010]  You can find them on YouTube under that name.
[04:18.270 --> 04:18.530]  Awesome.
[04:18.950 --> 04:19.850]  This is Off the Hook.
[04:20.030 --> 04:20.870]  Emmanuel Goldstein with you.
[04:20.930 --> 04:23.650]  That was the voice of Rob over there, also joined tonight by Mike.
[04:23.930 --> 04:24.290]  Hi there.
[04:24.290 --> 04:25.090]  Alex.
[04:25.610 --> 04:25.950]  Good evening.
[04:26.110 --> 04:26.370]  Kyle.
[04:27.010 --> 04:27.790]  Hi, everybody.
[04:28.130 --> 04:28.870]  And Bernie S.
[04:29.830 --> 04:31.050]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[04:31.430 --> 04:37.470]  And as you no doubt have heard, the story about the NSA just continues.
[04:37.490 --> 04:40.670]  It seems to be with us for quite some time.
[04:40.670 --> 04:43.850]  Although the mass media seems to have turned it around a little bit.
[04:44.010 --> 04:53.770]  And it's not so much about all the surveillance that is being perpetrated against the American public and the world, but rather against this one guy who apparently is the problem.
[04:53.770 --> 04:56.170]  Is anyone surprised by this?
[04:56.750 --> 04:57.190]  Shocked.
[04:57.330 --> 04:57.490]  No?
[04:57.730 --> 04:58.470]  No, not really?
[04:58.590 --> 04:58.970]  Barney, you?
[05:00.410 --> 05:01.410]  Blaming the messenger?
[05:01.730 --> 05:02.390]  Yeah, exactly.
[05:02.790 --> 05:04.070]  I mean, we knew this was going to happen.
[05:04.190 --> 05:05.690]  This is what people were expecting.
[05:06.070 --> 05:17.150]  But what disappoints me quite a bit is the reaction of the American public, who seemed to be strongly in favor of prosecuting Ed Snowden, which I find to be unconscionable.
[05:17.430 --> 05:19.990]  Is that so, or is it just the talking heads on the media?
[05:20.030 --> 05:21.370]  Oh, that's what the polls are saying.
[05:21.370 --> 05:23.090]  I don't know how else to accurately...
[05:23.090 --> 05:34.930]  I mean, I find it actually quite reassuring that despite the talking heads on the media, huge numbers of Americans know what's going on and don't want Snowden prosecuted, or at least want the NSA stopped as well.
[05:35.450 --> 05:36.850]  I mean, I'd like to believe that.
[05:36.890 --> 05:38.130]  And I know there are people like that.
[05:38.250 --> 05:42.270]  But I think the majority, the majority are in favor of...
[05:42.270 --> 05:43.430]  They see him as a threat.
[05:43.550 --> 05:46.470]  They see these secrets as something that shouldn't have been revealed.
[05:46.470 --> 05:54.090]  And in fact, a lot of people, a lot of smart people I know, say it's not a problem to have all their information being watched in the ways that have been reported.
[05:54.910 --> 05:56.010]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[05:56.850 --> 06:10.490]  I think one of the reasons that many Americans seem to feel that Ed Snowden should be prosecuted for espionage and, you know, capital crimes, death penalty stuff, is they believe...
[06:10.490 --> 06:12.490]  They still believe their government.
[06:12.670 --> 06:29.930]  They still believe the president of the United States and the head of the Department of Justice, Eric Holder, and senators like Dianne Feinstein, and the head of national intelligence, Clapper, James Clapper.
[06:29.930 --> 06:38.430]  They believe all these top officials we have that this guy, Ed Snowden, endangered national security and put Americans' lives at risk.
[06:38.610 --> 06:39.630]  I don't buy it.
[06:39.810 --> 06:41.190]  They've been proven to be liars.
[06:41.570 --> 06:44.470]  And we should take everything they say with a big grain of salt.
[06:45.150 --> 06:48.270]  Bernie, I think that's a fantastic point that you raised there, too.
[06:48.310 --> 06:51.630]  And I think that this also gets to the issue of damages here.
[06:52.030 --> 06:54.330]  I mean, who's really damaged by these revelations?
[06:54.330 --> 06:55.970]  I mean, it is silly.
[06:56.190 --> 07:03.910]  It's absolutely silly to imagine that terrorists didn't know that Britain and the United States were monitoring certain types of electronic communications.
[07:04.070 --> 07:05.230]  I mean, that's absolutely crazy.
[07:05.710 --> 07:11.150]  John Kerry's statements that people would die as a result of these disclosures just makes him look absolutely ridiculous.
[07:11.150 --> 07:12.530]  We lose the moral high ground.
[07:12.990 --> 07:14.010]  It's very, very silly.
[07:14.110 --> 07:15.210]  Now, who's damaged by this?
[07:15.470 --> 07:22.010]  It's the politicians and it's the journalists that are engaging in these ad hominem and outrageous attacks against Snowden.
[07:22.010 --> 07:24.890]  These are the people that were supposed to be watching out for us.
[07:25.070 --> 07:36.710]  These members of HIPSE and SISI, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, these are the guys that were supposed to be engaging in meaningful oversight of intelligence activities and they either,
[07:36.870 --> 07:40.830]  one, turned a blind eye to it, or two, were absolutely negligent in their duties.
[07:41.030 --> 07:48.990]  And is it shocking that these are the exact same people that are right now demonizing Snowden and calling him a leaker as opposed to a whistleblower?
[07:48.990 --> 07:51.770]  I mean, it's a distinction without a difference, in my opinion.
[07:51.950 --> 07:56.830]  And I think we really have to focus on what the real issue is, the disclosure.
[07:57.050 --> 08:07.730]  All of this while the rest of the world is kind of taking pause and looking at their own sovereignty and their own ability to, yeah, control their information.
[08:07.750 --> 08:14.130]  And they're looking at the United States position, like controlling a lot of this infrastructure and wanting to know more.
[08:14.290 --> 08:24.790]  They're interested in the actual programs, the actual issues at stake, while the American media and powers that be continue to just run around crazy, getting into manhunt mode.
[08:25.530 --> 08:26.650]  That's the truth.
[08:27.310 --> 08:36.450]  If you look at the main news organizations that most people get their information from, unfortunately, it's all about how do we catch this guy?
[08:36.450 --> 08:52.250]  How much of a further threat can he pose to us without even taking a look at the threat that's already been posed to us as far as taking away all of our, I guess, expectations of privacy because people don't think they even deserve to be private anymore.
[08:52.290 --> 08:54.870]  And if you are, there's something suspicious about you.
[08:54.930 --> 09:00.970]  In fact, there's an article, I saw this in a column called Law and Disorder, Civilization and Discontents.
[09:00.970 --> 09:08.210]  The use of Tor and email crypto could increase chances that the NSA keeps your data.
[09:08.610 --> 09:13.790]  So this kind of thinking makes it something suspicious.
[09:13.790 --> 09:20.130]  If you actually act to anonymize or encrypt your communications, you must have something to hide then.
[09:20.190 --> 09:22.690]  So if you do that, you right away become more suspicious.
[09:23.070 --> 09:30.270]  Well, it makes it more likely that they'll try and keep your communications, but as far as we know, much less likely that they'll succeed in reading them.
[09:30.270 --> 09:32.270]  So I think on balance, you come out ahead.
[09:32.670 --> 09:33.730]  I'd like to think that.
[09:33.870 --> 09:38.610]  But of course, the NSA has a lot of computing power and a lot of money behind it.
[09:38.750 --> 09:46.850]  So something that might seem uncrackable now in a few years, and since they're storing everything forever, maybe that's something that won't be the case anymore, Rob.
[09:46.950 --> 09:52.030]  And also, all the encryption in the world is only any good until they capture you and force you to reveal your keys.
[09:52.430 --> 09:53.110]  Right, exactly.
[09:53.210 --> 09:55.550]  It's not always true, but...
[09:56.050 --> 10:01.030]  Well, if they torture you and force you to reveal your password, I don't see what protection there is against that, you know?
[10:01.490 --> 10:05.210]  I mean, you have to have the data still for them to be able to torture it out of you.
[10:05.390 --> 10:07.730]  Okay, most people, though, aren't this savvy.
[10:08.050 --> 10:09.810]  Most people are rather sloppy, in fact.
[10:10.090 --> 10:10.730]  And if you...
[10:10.730 --> 10:11.850]  I mean, it's not that hard.
[10:11.850 --> 10:20.250]  Like, when you use Tor or when you just use a normal encrypted website, you don't know the encryption key.
[10:20.490 --> 10:28.410]  Like, if you go to Google and you use the HTTPS and it's encrypted, so Google still has all your data and there's plenty of privacy problems there.
[10:28.510 --> 10:34.410]  But an eavesdropper can't see exactly what you're saying to Google.
[10:34.550 --> 10:35.890]  They can see that you're talking to Google.
[10:35.890 --> 10:41.090]  And the encryption key that is generated when you talk to Google is not something you know.
[10:41.690 --> 10:43.410]  It's not something that's dealt with manually.
[10:43.890 --> 10:46.490]  The Tor browsers are similar.
[10:46.710 --> 10:47.870]  They're pretty easy to use.
[10:47.950 --> 10:50.210]  I've used them at least off and on.
[10:50.630 --> 10:51.370]  Tried it out.
[10:51.570 --> 10:52.430]  Yeah, seen what it's all about.
[10:52.630 --> 10:53.730]  Okay, so now you're on the list.
[10:53.870 --> 10:58.030]  But the point is that if you use this, fine.
[10:58.990 --> 11:00.730]  An eavesdropper can't listen in.
[11:00.970 --> 11:02.890]  But the NSA is more than an eavesdropper.
[11:02.890 --> 11:08.210]  They can retain data and they can get backdoor access in various ways.
[11:08.990 --> 11:17.510]  And that doesn't even take into account what they might be able to get if they simply seize your hardware and find things that you've left in the clear, which I think everybody does.
[11:17.810 --> 11:23.670]  And also, if the social attitudes keep shifting, as you say, toward the, well, you shouldn't be trying to hide anyway.
[11:23.850 --> 11:27.190]  If you haven't got anything to hide, you should be okay with being monitored.
[11:27.390 --> 11:32.390]  All you have to do then in a society like that is be using encryption to be labeled a bad guy.
[11:32.390 --> 11:40.450]  How long until somebody is found guilty of something just because their communications were encrypted without even considering what might have or might not have been in those communications?
[11:40.730 --> 11:59.610]  It's not hard to sway the public opinion because people have been informed by CNN and Associated Press and all the agencies that terrorists now are thinking differently because of the information that's been revealed about all these spying programs and is actually having an effect on the way terrorists think.
[11:59.610 --> 12:02.590]  And, of course, that can only be interpreted one way.
[12:02.690 --> 12:04.170]  It means that they're getting more sophisticated.
[12:04.170 --> 12:05.650]  They're going to figure out ways to bypass.
[12:05.890 --> 12:09.550]  Now that they know that they're being listened in on, they're going to do something else.
[12:09.690 --> 12:16.770]  And, first of all, I don't know how any self-respecting terrorist would assume that he wasn't being listened in on to start with and take some kind of precaution to begin with.
[12:17.770 --> 12:26.870]  But it's just that mentality that, okay, the secret's out now and only the bad guys will benefit from this and we have no right to actually benefit from it ourselves.
[12:27.130 --> 12:28.370]  That's really disturbing.
[12:28.530 --> 12:29.490]  That's what's happening.
[12:29.730 --> 12:31.710]  I mean, even if you accept the...
[12:31.710 --> 12:33.270]  This is what's so weird to me.
[12:33.350 --> 12:40.610]  Even if you accept that the NSA is stopping terrorists, they claim to have stopped 50 terrorists and they can tell us about four of them.
[12:40.750 --> 12:48.570]  And one is this New York City bomber, subway bomber case that is trotted out every time anything bad happens.
[12:48.570 --> 12:56.510]  As an example of a guy we stopped, apparently we've spent like, you know, tens and hundreds of billions of dollars to stop this one guy.
[12:56.690 --> 13:03.630]  And the other cases are people who sent money overseas and maybe even to bad people overseas.
[13:03.630 --> 13:06.650]  But like, terrorist masterminds, these aren't.
[13:06.750 --> 13:08.630]  And these are the three that they're telling us about.
[13:08.810 --> 13:10.910]  The other 46 have got to be even worse.
[13:12.510 --> 13:14.150]  So, worse as in stupider.
[13:14.650 --> 13:22.330]  So, I don't think we're getting our money's worth even if you accept this whole mentality, which you probably shouldn't do.
[13:22.690 --> 13:33.210]  You know, and going back to these several instances that you just mentioned, Mike, what's also disturbing to me is that most of these instances actually involve U.S.
[13:33.610 --> 13:35.150]  citizens and the communications of U.S.
[13:35.510 --> 13:35.510]  citizens.
[13:35.670 --> 13:40.410]  I would like to know what the other 46 involved, the other 47, 46, whatever it is.
[13:40.570 --> 13:55.530]  But I find the notion that the communications of American citizens are only incidental to the program to be harder and harder to believe the more and more we learn about the various plots that were supposedly interrupted by the surveillance program.
[13:56.510 --> 13:56.910]  Well, I mean...
[13:57.770 --> 13:58.690]  Mike, then, Bernie.
[13:58.930 --> 14:08.250]  The thing is, Alex, that if people are overseas and remain overseas, it's considerably more difficult to physically harm people in the United States.
[14:08.250 --> 14:12.630]  So at some point, of course, either U.S.
[14:13.150 --> 14:15.150]  nationals or people physically in the U.S.
[14:15.270 --> 14:16.370]  are going to be involved.
[14:18.170 --> 14:20.710]  So, of course, they're spying on Americans.
[14:20.950 --> 14:23.830]  Like, this is nothing that should surprise anyone.
[14:24.090 --> 14:24.650]  All right, go ahead, Bernie.
[14:25.670 --> 14:32.690]  What Mike brought up, the case that always seems to be trotted out is the New York subway alleged terror, subway bomber.
[14:32.910 --> 14:41.870]  If you actually read the indictments of these cases, the few that the government will even say were like the shining examples of why we need all the surveillance.
[14:42.170 --> 14:54.170]  If you read the indictments, you can see that these people really were just really utterly incompetent morons who were really incapable of pulling anything off.
[14:54.170 --> 14:55.690]  In fact, this guy, he gave up.
[14:55.890 --> 14:56.750]  He gave up.
[14:56.810 --> 15:02.890]  And then they arrested him after he gave up because he was incapable of accomplishing anything evil.
[15:03.930 --> 15:07.450]  Not morally, but he just didn't have any basic whatever.
[15:08.070 --> 15:10.430]  The other thing I want to pry down is like this whole...
[15:10.430 --> 15:12.530]  I think it's all semantics when it comes to a U.S.
[15:12.570 --> 15:14.450]  citizen or important citizen.
[15:14.790 --> 15:23.530]  As we all know, NSA is only supposed to be monitoring foreign communications, ostensibly foreign communications with Americans in some cases if there's that nexus.
[15:24.170 --> 15:30.430]  But we mentioned last week and this week the British equivalent to NSA, GCHQ.
[15:31.310 --> 15:34.490]  There's something that's been in existence since, I think, 1946.
[15:35.010 --> 15:36.930]  It's called the UK-USA Alliance.
[15:37.690 --> 15:50.070]  It is a compact, an agreement between the National Security Agency, GCHQ, and the equivalent electronic surveillance agencies in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
[15:50.070 --> 15:52.390]  And they all scratch each other's backs.
[15:52.470 --> 15:57.130]  And each country has their own rules about monitoring the communications of their own citizens.
[15:57.610 --> 16:01.810]  It's kind of off-limits, but it's okay to monitor the foreigners.
[16:02.070 --> 16:13.490]  Do you think it's possible that these electronic intelligence agencies are maybe scratching each other's back and exchanging data, like the GCHQ is giving U.S.
[16:13.690 --> 16:15.690]  American communications and vice versa?
[16:15.950 --> 16:17.630]  Would that be a stretch to believe?
[16:19.630 --> 16:20.350]  No, Bernie.
[16:20.450 --> 16:21.350]  It would not be a stretch.
[16:21.610 --> 16:26.750]  And I think more importantly, though, people who are not Americans deserve privacy, too.
[16:26.890 --> 16:28.770]  People who are not British deserve privacy, too.
[16:28.890 --> 16:31.030]  People who are not from New Zealand deserve privacy, too.
[16:31.170 --> 16:37.110]  And I'm not really that interested in this distinction between Americans and non-Americans in the first place.
[16:37.750 --> 16:53.910]  And just to clarify here, I'm looking at a poll, a recent poll by the Pew Research Center and USA Today, who say that 54% of adults believe the federal government should move forward with a criminal case against the NSA leaker.
[16:54.430 --> 16:58.130]  And 38, only 38% think that he should not face criminal charges.
[16:58.290 --> 17:00.050]  That's one poll, and I'm sure there are others.
[17:00.230 --> 17:01.350]  I think that's amazing.
[17:01.810 --> 17:07.590]  38% of Americans who are being subjected to this propaganda non-stop don't buy it.
[17:07.710 --> 17:08.570]  I think that's amazing.
[17:09.010 --> 17:11.890]  Yeah, but I think it should be a lot closer to 100%.
[17:12.350 --> 17:13.990]  And 38% is not going to do it.
[17:14.110 --> 17:16.390]  It's not going to change anyone's mind in Washington.
[17:16.570 --> 17:17.650]  They're going to say, yeah, this is working.
[17:18.630 --> 17:21.350]  It's not a significant majority, but it's good enough.
[17:21.550 --> 17:30.650]  But can you imagine if more Americans could hear the kind of analysis that you hear on WBAI that you don't hear on the NBC News?
[17:30.810 --> 17:32.550]  I think we'd be at 100%.
[17:32.550 --> 17:33.110]  That would be nice.
[17:33.230 --> 17:33.570]  That would be nice.
[17:33.650 --> 17:38.370]  Well, if you can figure out a way to get our words, our signal out there to the populace, please do.
[17:38.530 --> 17:43.510]  Please copy our show and spread it all over the place because that's one way to reach people.
[17:44.010 --> 17:44.870]  And just to...
[17:44.870 --> 17:53.290]  We didn't really actually talk about this, but for those who haven't been paying any attention to the story about Edward Snowden, he was officially charged.
[17:54.310 --> 17:54.930]  What was it?
[17:55.010 --> 17:55.610]  A few days ago?
[17:55.810 --> 17:57.070]  It was on Friday, I think.
[17:57.210 --> 18:01.310]  Well, he was charged the week before, but it was announced that he was charged last week.
[18:01.310 --> 18:02.290]  He was secretly charged.
[18:02.450 --> 18:04.270]  Everything's a secret with these people.
[18:04.470 --> 18:10.390]  And yeah, somebody found out and then they released it and he was actually charged with espionage.
[18:10.850 --> 18:13.830]  And wow, that carries certain penalties, doesn't it?
[18:14.610 --> 18:18.130]  Ten years, I think, for both offenses, actually.
[18:18.270 --> 18:21.530]  And he was charged with two separate offenses here.
[18:21.670 --> 18:29.390]  The unauthorized communication of national defense information and the willful communication of classified communications intelligence information.
[18:29.390 --> 18:35.430]  And what I think here, it's important to note that there's no question that he violated these laws.
[18:35.430 --> 18:37.970]  And I don't think that he's contesting that he violated these laws.
[18:38.130 --> 18:44.510]  And what nobody's really talking about is that this really should be classified as an act of political civil disobedience.
[18:44.810 --> 18:53.890]  He was trying to, by breaking one law, draw attention to what was a massive surveillance program that affected, as Mike pointed out, both U.S.
[18:53.970 --> 18:55.630]  citizens and foreign nationals.
[18:55.770 --> 19:02.770]  The damage here, again, was basically to politicians, to journalists, to people whose communications have been compromised.
[19:04.150 --> 19:08.610]  But this then raises the question, should he or should not be prosecuted?
[19:08.690 --> 19:15.690]  Because some people would argue that civil disobedience requires some kind of punishment or some form of punishment in order to actually complete the act.
[19:15.710 --> 19:19.550]  And that fleeing the jurisdiction actually undermines this type of claim.
[19:19.710 --> 19:22.230]  I don't necessarily find that to be so compelling.
[19:22.230 --> 19:25.630]  I think what we're dealing with here is at heart an issue of morality.
[19:26.350 --> 19:29.150]  And that's what's implicit in the Constitution here.
[19:29.270 --> 19:31.430]  And that's what Snowden was really trying to get at.
[19:31.630 --> 19:39.850]  He was trying to shed light on this immoral program that the government was engaged in without the consent of the United States and without the benefit of political discourse.
[19:40.170 --> 19:43.930]  That's what we should be focusing on, not whether he was a leaker or a whistleblower.
[19:44.310 --> 19:47.290]  And what exactly is the difference between a leaker and a whistleblower?
[19:47.530 --> 19:48.750]  One you like, one you don't.
[19:48.990 --> 19:52.610]  But I like leakers and I like whistleblowers, so where does that put me?
[19:53.830 --> 19:55.450]  I think right in the middle.
[19:55.690 --> 19:56.470]  Yeah, Bernie, go ahead.
[19:57.650 --> 20:00.990]  I think one of the reasons that the U.S.
[20:01.070 --> 20:24.230]  government from the president to the head of the Department of State to the Department of Justice, I mean, all the time for a government official and why they want this guy's head stood and head on a stick is because they want to scare the hell out of anybody else who's thinking about being a whistleblower and blowing their cover about the evil deeds they're doing against us instead of protecting
[20:24.230 --> 20:25.830]  us, which is what they're supposed to be doing.
[20:26.030 --> 20:31.250]  So I think this is really an effort to send a message to the...
[20:31.770 --> 20:32.370]  What is it?
[20:32.450 --> 20:32.770]  How many...
[20:32.770 --> 20:33.830]  It's like over...
[20:33.830 --> 20:40.690]  How many millions of government contractors are there that private, you know, civilians that work in...
[20:40.690 --> 20:46.630]  that have classified clearances, that deal with classified information about what our government's doing behind our backs?
[20:46.630 --> 20:47.670]  Well, Bernie, I think...
[20:47.670 --> 20:50.890]  I don't know the exact number, but there were certainly a lot.
[20:51.010 --> 20:55.310]  And when I was working for the government, these were the people that had green badges.
[20:56.110 --> 20:59.150]  Everyone else had different color badges and the government contractors...
[20:59.150 --> 21:00.250]  There was a reason why...
[21:00.250 --> 21:06.210]  Well, at least there was a joke that the reason why their badges were green was because they basically made at least two or three times as much as the actual government employees.
[21:06.830 --> 21:08.410]  And there were a lot of them.
[21:09.270 --> 21:12.870]  Let me just point out something else that I think really deserves to be mentioned.
[21:13.070 --> 21:16.110]  There's this thing called the 1917 Espionage Act.
[21:16.970 --> 21:17.330]  1917.
[21:18.690 --> 21:20.930]  And there have been a total...
[21:20.930 --> 21:22.410]  It's only been used nine times.
[21:22.570 --> 21:27.170]  Only nine indictments have come down for this Espionage Act from back in 1917.
[21:27.550 --> 21:31.350]  And do you know of those nine, six of them have been under the Obama administration.
[21:31.390 --> 21:32.410]  What does that mean?
[21:32.610 --> 21:33.030]  What does that...
[21:33.030 --> 21:34.310]  Who wants to interpret that, Mike?
[21:34.390 --> 21:35.630]  Is it true that there have only been...
[21:35.630 --> 21:35.950]  I'm sorry.
[21:36.290 --> 21:39.970]  Is it true that there have only been nine total or nine of people who are not actual spies?
[21:40.110 --> 21:43.670]  Because there have been some actual spies every once in a while who get charged with this thing.
[21:43.710 --> 21:45.030]  Actually, yeah, I was wrong about this.
[21:45.250 --> 21:48.610]  Actually, Snowden will be the seventh individual when he's formally indicted.
[21:48.870 --> 21:53.970]  So actually, seven of ten in that case will be...
[21:53.970 --> 21:55.530]  Does that answer your question in any way?
[21:55.650 --> 21:56.930]  No, it's a different question.
[21:57.050 --> 21:59.390]  But anyway, yeah, I mean...
[21:59.390 --> 22:01.930]  So part of the thing is that it's a lot easier to copy things.
[22:02.090 --> 22:14.510]  If you read the history of Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers, just the effort required to physically photocopy thousands of pages of documents back several decades ago was incredibly difficult.
[22:14.510 --> 22:17.990]  And now you can fit it all on a thumb drive and carry it all around the world.
[22:18.170 --> 22:21.270]  So probably there are more leakers than there used to be.
[22:21.530 --> 22:28.030]  But the Obama administration's crackdown on leakers is also unprecedented and really disturbing.
[22:28.410 --> 22:29.930]  There was a really...
[22:29.930 --> 22:33.630]  I criticize CNN a lot, but occasionally they print something which is really genius.
[22:33.990 --> 22:44.730]  And in this particular case, they printed an opinion piece by Simon Tisdale, who is an assistant editor and foreign affairs columnist of The Guardian, the same paper that broke the story.
[22:45.490 --> 22:49.490]  And this is about the hunt for Edward Snowden.
[22:49.770 --> 22:53.590]  They conclude nobody except perhaps Snowden himself is coming out of this well.
[22:54.370 --> 22:56.430]  And it seems to be quite true.
[22:56.870 --> 22:58.150]  Now, John Kerry, U.S.
[22:58.410 --> 23:05.750]  Secretary of State, warned China and Russia of consequences if, as seems probable, they have conspired to deliberately thwart U.S.
[23:05.850 --> 23:08.250]  justice by twisting the long arm of the law.
[23:08.470 --> 23:15.010]  Like too many American politicians, Kerry seems to believe the law is what the White House Council and U.S.
[23:15.290 --> 23:22.930]  Justice Department deem it to be on any given day and that this made-in-America law applies inexorably to every country in every corner of the world.
[23:23.270 --> 23:23.970]  Wrong, John.
[23:24.150 --> 23:26.810]  It's like invading somebody else's country without a U.N.
[23:26.910 --> 23:30.130]  Security Council resolution or entering a home without a warrant.
[23:30.270 --> 23:34.650]  Not advisable unless you relish hand-to-hand combat and enlist sarcasm.
[23:35.350 --> 23:36.710]  And it goes on from there.
[23:36.710 --> 24:04.450]  But basically, I think the world, the rest of the world is looking at this with a combination of horror and just laughing at us because it really seems so outrageous that here we are, this country obsessed with surveillance and spying on people and we're trying to condemn this guy for spying on them and expecting the rest of the world to see that and cooperate with us.
[24:05.050 --> 24:08.690]  I think you brought up some really, really great points there, Emanuel.
[24:08.950 --> 24:13.170]  I mean, the extraterritorial legal application of U.S.
[24:13.250 --> 24:17.110]  law is one thing and extradition treaties are another.
[24:17.410 --> 24:41.490]  I mean, here is a principle of international law that has essentially gone back to Egyptian times and in the absence, and it is still the same today, in the absence of some kind of extradition treaty between nations, a nation has absolute sovereignty and absolute authority over the citizens within its borders and that is what we have basically been told by China and by Hong Kong.
[24:41.810 --> 24:45.150]  I'm sorry, China, Hong Kong and Russia at this point.
[24:45.310 --> 24:49.470]  And here we are on the other side and we just start to look really bad.
[24:49.590 --> 24:59.030]  We start to look like a child who's throwing a temper tantrum and who's being ignored and then starts kicking their legs up and throwing their feet a little bit louder and more wild.
[24:59.030 --> 25:05.770]  And if these countries give in, it's like giving in to a child who's having a temper tantrum that only reinforces the bad behavior.
[25:05.930 --> 25:16.190]  And for one, I'm not afraid to say I'm very, very glad that neither China nor Russia handed Snowden over to us because we would have lost even more moral high ground at that point.
[25:16.230 --> 25:30.270]  If we had prosecuted him in the same way that we prosecuted Bradley Manning or in some, you know, with secret evidence and a bunch of in-camera conferences, it just would have been made more a mockery of this process than has already been.
[25:30.690 --> 25:43.670]  I think, though, that these temper tantrums are intentional because they distract us from the crimes, the much grosser crimes that are being committed by the NSA, by the surveillance apparatus.
[25:44.210 --> 25:58.450]  So I think it's a very intentional thing that John Kerry and all these other powerful people are doing when they try and focus our attention on Snowden himself and maybe he's in Russia or, you know, who cares where he is?
[25:58.530 --> 25:59.810]  Who cares what his motives are?
[26:00.430 --> 26:03.330]  You know, all evidence is that his motives are actually quite good.
[26:03.430 --> 26:07.130]  But even if his motive is to destroy the United States, who cares?
[26:07.150 --> 26:14.310]  The things that he is allowing us to see are really disturbing and I think we need to focus on them.
[26:14.590 --> 26:16.650]  And John Kerry really doesn't want that.
[26:16.990 --> 26:23.890]  Yeah, and I think a lot of basically their goal is to get him and get control because right now they don't have control over the situation.
[26:24.030 --> 26:28.290]  I think this has been spoken to a little bit but it's simply that and it's very similar with Bradley Manning.
[26:28.390 --> 26:56.250]  They want to be able to control the situation and then run it through kind of a more or less corrupt process like judicially like the court systems and stuff and then attach all kinds of precedent to it legally so that a lot of these programs and these contracts and these infrastructure these points where infrastructure is being sort of used by the government so that they can just expand it and
[26:56.250 --> 27:05.690]  grow it further and basically point to these cases as reasons now for this kind of surveillance.
[27:05.790 --> 27:06.290]  And you've said it before.
[27:06.390 --> 27:08.330]  I mean, you never get that back, right?
[27:08.610 --> 27:11.910]  It's just once those programs begin they're always there.
[27:12.090 --> 27:16.530]  I mean, unless I really I would hate to say this but it's probably true.
[27:16.530 --> 27:21.770]  We're not going to see a lot of equipment being hauled off to the curb in front of Google or some of these big companies.
[27:21.930 --> 27:33.570]  We'd like to see it but I don't know that these data closets or data centers are going to have gear from the NSA just kind of sitting in the trash bin because they decided to go back on these things.
[27:33.790 --> 27:39.790]  And once that massive data center in Utah opens up for the NSA it's never going to close.
[27:40.170 --> 27:46.070]  What would it take to close on a military base such a massive collection of data?
[27:46.070 --> 27:49.990]  Yeah and the misdirection here is just really intensely frightening.
[27:50.690 --> 27:59.930]  The news is full of today you know all these stories about Snowden and how this man is a criminal and the polls say this man is a criminal and he faces 10 years or more in prison if he gets dragged back here.
[28:00.570 --> 28:04.410]  Meantime he's a criminal because he exposed a massive crime on the part of the government.
[28:04.610 --> 28:09.030]  Where is the investigation into the governmental officials who okayed this whole situation?
[28:09.270 --> 28:12.510]  The people who set up this anti-constitutional surveillance system?
[28:12.510 --> 28:19.610]  These people who are violating your constitutional rights on a daily basis now where are the charges that these people are being brought up on?
[28:19.790 --> 28:28.330]  Just like where are the charges against the people responsible for a collateral murder that the video that Bradley Manning revealed to the world?
[28:28.490 --> 28:33.030]  That's a crime people needed to see and I don't think anything's been done to those people.
[28:33.590 --> 28:39.350]  Now an interesting name that we might remember Valerie Plame you remember who Valerie Plame is don't you Bernie?
[28:39.990 --> 28:45.190]  Oh yeah, I think Dick Cheney's office kind of...
[28:45.190 --> 28:45.590]  She was a...
[28:45.590 --> 28:47.410]  Wouldn't she be a covert CIA officer?
[28:47.430 --> 29:00.350]  She was a former CIA agent Yeah, and the members of the Bush administration kind of leaked her name which is a really boneheaded thing to do for somebody who...
[29:00.350 --> 29:01.050]  It's illegal too.
[29:01.350 --> 29:01.590]  It's a felony.
[29:01.750 --> 29:21.730]  Yeah, but of course nobody faced any charges for that but they put her at great risk by revealing her name for some political agenda that they were engaged in at the moment but anyway she said that she views NSA leaker Edward Snowden as neither a hero nor a traitor but that Americans should be grateful that he brought the conversation about liberty and security to the national forefront.
[29:21.970 --> 29:26.450]  That's somebody I think we should listen to someone who's been through it and it's...
[29:27.030 --> 29:29.470]  I just hope more people pay attention.
[29:30.570 --> 29:30.850]  Now...
[29:30.850 --> 29:31.030]  Emmanuel?
[29:31.230 --> 29:31.930]  Yes, Bernie, please.
[29:32.470 --> 29:50.850]  I just want to say one of the most entertaining kabuki dance temper tantrums this week over this whole thing was, you know, the president and the department Eric Holder of the Department of Justice were hopping mad because China through, you know, Hong Kong did not extradite...
[29:50.850 --> 30:05.370]  Hong Kong obviously being part of China did not extradite Snowden and if you look at the facts that's going on here when China got the extradition request it's reported that it lacked...
[30:05.370 --> 30:23.510]  it had his middle name wrong had Ed Snowden's middle name wrong and it didn't have his passport number on the document so reportedly the government of Hong Kong the officials the elite the justice officials in Hong Kong wrote back to the DOJ and the United States and said well,
[30:23.690 --> 30:27.290]  we need conservation on this and it took a couple days for the U.S.
[30:27.330 --> 30:37.870]  to get back to them with this stuff meanwhile that's when Snowden left hang on, hang on Bernie you're saying that the United States did not include his passport number or...
[30:37.870 --> 30:40.790]  and it got his middle name wrong too and so then the U.S.
[30:40.870 --> 30:41.810]  said that there were no discrep...
[30:41.810 --> 30:42.670]  when the U.S.
[30:43.090 --> 30:43.350]  first...
[30:43.350 --> 30:53.730]  when Hong Kong justice officials said there were some discrepancies and we requested some clarification and meanwhile Snowden left the country because we had no reason to detain him the U.S.
[30:53.830 --> 31:00.770]  government said oh, there were no discrepancies in our documents but now it's coming out that the documents didn't have his passport number or...
[31:00.770 --> 31:10.790]  and they had his middle name wrong too so I was really curious about this so the only other extradition order I'm personally familiar with was our friend Richard Dwyer who ran TV Shack in the U.K.
[31:11.390 --> 31:31.730]  and his mom Julia Dwyer we had on the show several times she had months ago when we had her on the show she sent me a copy of that extradition order which people rarely get to see an extradition order they're really amazing documents so I looked at it and I see who composed that extradition order for Richard Dwyer a couple years ago her name was Lystra G.
[31:31.910 --> 31:36.930]  Blakes he's the associate director of the Office of International Affairs Criminal Division U.S.
[31:37.250 --> 32:03.910]  Department of Justice I was able to get her on the phone today you called her wow well first of all how do you spell that first name I'm just curious the first name is Lystra L-Y-S-T-R-A last name Blake B-L-A-K-E okay well I know how to spell that but I was just curious about the name your phone number it was very easy to find and I called it's funny it was a 202 phone number obviously it ended in
[32:03.910 --> 32:19.430]  0000 and I was like this number can't be right I called it somebody answered I just said Lystra Blake please and they said hold on and then Lystra Blake answered the phone and I'm like this is great So I asked her, I said, this is with WBAI Radio in New York,
[32:19.570 --> 32:24.010]  and I asked if she had prepared the extradition docs for Edward Snowden.
[32:24.330 --> 32:29.430]  And she demanded to know who I was and why I was calling, and she refused to answer my question.
[32:29.430 --> 32:31.190]  I just said, just answer yes or no.
[32:31.290 --> 32:34.810]  It's a simple, factual... She's had it very defensive.
[32:35.130 --> 32:36.970]  She wouldn't answer the question, and she hung up.
[32:36.970 --> 32:45.810]  Now, I'm not sure if she's the person who screwed up here, but it looks, from my research, it looks like she's the one who prepares the extradition documents for the Department of Justice.
[32:46.690 --> 32:50.090]  And it came out of the same office.
[32:50.810 --> 32:54.130]  And her name appears on other extradition documents as the preparer.
[32:54.650 --> 33:10.710]  So I just think somewhere, ironically, in the NSA's database of entertaining phone recordings, there's probably a phone call from Eric Holder or some other officials to Leister Blake, ask or whoever prepared these reportedly flawed extradition documents,
[33:10.850 --> 33:12.950]  saying, how could you screw that up?
[33:13.050 --> 33:14.090]  How could you get that wrong?
[33:14.250 --> 33:15.510]  We just looked out of our fingers.
[33:15.970 --> 33:25.010]  I love that you took the initiative and did this, Bernie, because this is like a prime example of what everyone needs to know, and they need to feel empowered that they can talk to these people.
[33:25.010 --> 33:27.990]  Like, we're paying for their office, for what they do.
[33:28.030 --> 33:30.030]  So please, we must feel free.
[33:30.050 --> 33:33.250]  And I think more people should take that opportunity.
[33:33.510 --> 33:38.710]  And not only that, you probably could have given her information like the middle name and passport number that we can easily find.
[33:38.830 --> 33:40.350]  Apparently, they have difficulty with.
[33:40.430 --> 33:42.650]  So I actually want to disagree with you, Kyle and Bernie.
[33:42.690 --> 33:43.850]  I think this is a total distraction.
[33:43.850 --> 33:49.270]  I don't care who prepared the document that misspelled Edward Snowden's middle name.
[33:49.430 --> 33:54.510]  I want to know more about the surveillance programs that Edward Snowden is telling us about.
[33:55.010 --> 33:57.010]  It's good practice to ask questions like this.
[33:57.170 --> 33:58.630]  Yeah, and it's not an either-or thing.
[33:58.830 --> 33:59.990]  It's a way of...
[33:59.990 --> 34:04.730]  But it is an either-or thing, because the media is focusing on where is Edward Snowden.
[34:04.730 --> 34:08.410]  You heard about this stupid plane flight to Havana full of journalists who couldn't drink.
[34:08.550 --> 34:12.130]  And we heard about this plane flight full of journalists who can't drink endlessly.
[34:12.370 --> 34:16.630]  And we stopped talking for a day about the NSA surveillance program.
[34:17.110 --> 34:21.730]  Well, every other news story that anything is being focused on is also taking away from the discussion.
[34:21.730 --> 34:25.730]  I think this helps to color it a little bit more to see just how absurd and ridiculous...
[34:25.730 --> 34:31.570]  I'm glad you reminded me about the Cuba thing, because that is rather indicative of how the media operates.
[34:31.590 --> 34:37.770]  A bunch of press people got tickets on the plane that he was flying from, allegedly flying from Moscow to Havana.
[34:37.930 --> 34:38.790]  He didn't show up.
[34:38.910 --> 34:46.970]  They had to take a, what, 11-hour flight from Moscow to Havana, and they couldn't even drink anything, because for some reason it was a no-alcohol flight.
[34:46.970 --> 34:48.490]  And then they're stuck in Cuba.
[34:48.790 --> 34:50.810]  So, I think that's retributive justice.
[34:51.170 --> 34:51.470]  They're stuck in Cuba for at least three days.
[34:51.670 --> 34:52.010]  I'm sorry?
[34:52.610 --> 34:54.310]  They're stuck in Cuba for at least three days.
[34:54.810 --> 34:59.670]  Apparently, according to Cuban law, they have to stay there three days before they can leave.
[35:00.730 --> 35:04.770]  So, well, they're probably just going to run up big hotel bills and stuff.
[35:04.910 --> 35:06.530]  But, I mean, and Mike's right.
[35:06.650 --> 35:07.610]  These are all distractions.
[35:07.610 --> 35:19.910]  But, you know, we sometimes need some levity in all this to point out how ludicrous and incompetent our government is and how untrustworthy they are, and our media are, you know, supposedly journalists.
[35:20.410 --> 35:27.630]  We need to look at what they're really doing and take everything they say with a grain of salt when we're looking at the big picture.
[35:28.750 --> 35:31.470]  Now, there's another aspect to all this I'd like to focus on for a moment.
[35:31.470 --> 35:48.950]  There was a letter written by a couple of senators, Senators Wyden and Udall, wrote to General Keith Alexander of the NSA urging him to correct inaccurate and misleading statements in the NSA's recently released fact sheet on Section 702 of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act,
[35:49.050 --> 35:49.230]  FISA.
[35:50.110 --> 36:00.930]  In our judgment, they say, this inaccuracy is significant as it portrays protections for Americans' privacy being significantly stronger than they actually are.
[36:01.470 --> 36:05.710]  And I believe this led to some kind of a change, but it's all very mysterious.
[36:06.250 --> 36:08.210]  Yeah, this is a really amazing document.
[36:08.470 --> 36:19.670]  So Senators Wyden and Udall are really leading the charge in Congress, and they're following all the laws, and I wish they would kind of be a little less cautious, but their caution is amazing in its way.
[36:19.950 --> 36:32.850]  They wrote this letter to General Alexander, and they provided a classified attachment, which the rest of us can't read, saying, like, here is where you lied, General Alexander, only much more politely than that.
[36:34.070 --> 36:46.870]  And the NSA apparently received this letter and the classified attachment, and they were like, oh, oh, yeah, this document that we prepared explaining how we don't spy on Americans has actually got some mistakes in it.
[36:46.930 --> 36:48.170]  So they took the document down.
[36:48.170 --> 36:49.950]  Well, what's in the document?
[36:50.110 --> 36:52.070]  What could possibly be wrong in there?
[36:52.150 --> 37:00.550]  The document purported to explain how people's privacy is maintained through the NSA spying program.
[37:01.030 --> 37:01.510]  Okay.
[37:01.750 --> 37:06.470]  And apparently it was a little bit untrue.
[37:06.710 --> 37:11.570]  So, okay, but a little bit untrue, but by taking the whole document down, we don't know which part is untrue.
[37:11.830 --> 37:14.070]  Well, unfortunately, yes.
[37:14.070 --> 37:16.550]  Is there any way we can get that information somehow?
[37:16.790 --> 37:19.310]  Is that something these senators aren't allowed to talk about?
[37:19.510 --> 37:24.610]  I mean, if the senators are not allowed to talk about, that's why they had to classify the attachment in the first place.
[37:24.710 --> 37:25.370]  This is insane.
[37:25.510 --> 37:25.910]  You realize that?
[37:25.910 --> 37:26.550]  Oh, of course.
[37:27.010 --> 37:27.630]  Bernie, go ahead.
[37:27.750 --> 37:28.110]  Emmanuel.
[37:28.590 --> 37:28.910]  Go ahead.
[37:29.230 --> 37:30.670]  I have a little...
[37:30.670 --> 37:32.990]  I don't have, obviously, a classified document, but...
[37:32.990 --> 37:34.750]  Are you going to make another phone call to the senators now?
[37:34.870 --> 37:35.750]  I would appreciate that.
[37:36.010 --> 37:37.070]  Well, maybe I could try.
[37:37.150 --> 37:39.150]  I don't think they're going to leak classified information to me.
[37:40.090 --> 38:02.370]  In a letter to Senator Wyden and Udall, General Alexander, the head of the NSA, said that he agreed that the fact sheet posted on the NSA website last week, quote, could have more precisely described, end quote, the requirements governing the collection of email and other Internet content from U.S.
[38:02.450 --> 38:02.730]  companies.
[38:02.870 --> 38:04.930]  It's about the PRISM program.
[38:05.270 --> 38:11.210]  So, I mean, the way these people mince words and dance around, you know, like, what was it a week or two ago?
[38:11.210 --> 38:15.550]  So, Alexander was testifying, and he said he chose to...
[38:15.550 --> 38:16.610]  Actually, it was before that.
[38:16.790 --> 38:24.410]  He said that when he was caught lying before Congress before, he said he chose the least untruthful way of saying something.
[38:24.590 --> 38:25.810]  That was a bizarre statement.
[38:27.410 --> 38:30.730]  By the way, Director Clapper, not General Alexander.
[38:31.010 --> 38:31.390]  I'm sorry.
[38:31.510 --> 38:31.630]  Thank you.
[38:31.750 --> 38:33.770]  They're all the same, but yeah.
[38:33.910 --> 38:34.450]  Yeah, you're right.
[38:34.830 --> 38:35.970]  I don't think they're all the same.
[38:36.070 --> 38:39.690]  I think there's a weak one amongst them, and we can get to them, and they'll spill everything.
[38:40.770 --> 38:59.650]  Okay, so speaking of authority figures, though, the FBI Director, Robert Mueller, told lawmakers, some of whom might already be a little bit skeptical of government surveillance, but they're afraid to actually say so, he said that the feds may need additional powers to track down criminals who hide their activities online.
[39:00.070 --> 39:13.870]  Buried in his prepared testimony last week to the Senate Judiciary Committee, he reaffirmed the Obama administration's long-held view that there's a growing gap between law enforcement's legal authority to conduct electronic surveillance and its ability to conduct such surveillance.
[39:14.030 --> 39:26.450]  The rapid pace of advances in mobile and other communication technologies continues to present a significant challenge for conducting court-approved electronic surveillance of criminals and terrorists, along with everybody else.
[39:26.630 --> 39:38.530]  Because of this gap, law enforcement is increasingly unable to gain timely access to the information to which it is lawfully authorized and that it needs to protect public safety, bring criminals to justice, and keep America safe.
[39:39.810 --> 39:41.790]  So, look for expansion.
[39:42.350 --> 39:42.850]  I'm sorry?
[39:43.750 --> 39:44.490]  Timely access.
[39:44.590 --> 39:46.490]  That's the phrase that we need to focus on here.
[39:46.490 --> 39:46.930]  Yes, yes.
[39:46.930 --> 39:47.590]  Timely access.
[39:47.730 --> 39:48.290]  What does that mean?
[39:48.490 --> 39:53.790]  As far as the FBI is concerned, I think they mean timely access means real-time access to everything.
[39:54.670 --> 39:55.150]  Timely.
[39:55.350 --> 40:06.910]  So, I mean, what you just read is another example of these people's amazing ability to misdirect us because what they said is exactly this.
[40:07.170 --> 40:13.730]  What they said is, we are able to spy on people in ways that we don't currently consider legal.
[40:14.050 --> 40:17.250]  Please fix the law so that we can spy on more people.
[40:17.610 --> 40:19.850]  But, of course, if they said it like that, no one would do it.
[40:20.090 --> 40:20.830]  So, they...
[40:20.830 --> 40:26.610]  Yeah, and it gets me how they keep going back to, well, this is all legal, especially the senators.
[40:27.130 --> 40:29.150]  say, yeah, everything is completely legal.
[40:29.270 --> 40:31.510]  But, ask yourself, go back 20 years.
[40:31.570 --> 40:33.230]  How illegal would it have been then?
[40:33.450 --> 40:35.430]  So, I mean, that's also what's insane.
[40:35.730 --> 40:42.430]  We're learning about so much that they consider legal that they can't tell us about because if we knew about it, we'd be...
[40:42.430 --> 40:44.030]  you know, we'd fire them all.
[40:44.790 --> 40:46.330]  And they think that's not enough.
[40:46.470 --> 40:48.810]  They want to do things that even they don't think are legal yet.
[40:49.290 --> 40:49.530]  Yeah.
[40:49.690 --> 40:51.730]  And once that happens, it's very hard to go back.
[40:51.850 --> 40:52.050]  Alex?
[40:53.110 --> 40:53.750]  Absolutely, here.
[40:53.790 --> 40:55.590]  I think there's two issues here.
[40:55.590 --> 41:07.170]  I think, Bernie, focusing on the language of timely access is absolutely right because what they must be speaking about there is the obligation to go to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and request access as opposed to having it in real time.
[41:07.310 --> 41:15.070]  And if they could avoid that small burden of making a showing to the FISC, they would be all the more happy, I think.
[41:15.290 --> 41:18.910]  And the other issue here is, yes, these programs were absolutely legal.
[41:19.050 --> 41:24.230]  And the Obama administration had made sure that these surveillance programs were on firmer legal footing than they had been previously.
[41:24.230 --> 41:27.690]  And I think that's an important point that a lot of the media is missing right now.
[41:27.790 --> 41:34.950]  But it's also imperative that we don't mix up legal and moral because not everything that is legal is moral.
[41:35.210 --> 41:37.590]  This program is arguably immoral.
[41:38.210 --> 41:42.310]  Poll taxes were immoral and those laws were disobeyed and they're not on the books anymore.
[41:42.650 --> 41:50.090]  You know, we cannot forget that there is often a distinction between what's legally authorized and what is or is not morally repugnant.
[41:50.970 --> 41:53.970]  And public opinion plays a big part in all that, too.
[41:54.130 --> 42:01.510]  So if you know people that aren't quite getting it or are repeating verbatim the party line, have a talk with them.
[42:01.590 --> 42:02.190]  Have a discussion.
[42:02.390 --> 42:12.390]  I know we've been tweeting about this on the 2600 Twitter account and the responses I'm seeing from people that think he should be prosecuted at Stonehenge should be prosecuted are much greater than I expected.
[42:13.130 --> 42:16.190]  So a lot of people are of different opinions.
[42:16.430 --> 42:16.890]  And you know what?
[42:17.090 --> 42:25.870]  Convince us if you think we're wrong but you're going to have a tough time with it because this is the kind of thing we've been following for a very long time and it's quite disturbing.
[42:26.230 --> 42:29.630]  Our phone number is 212-650-5782.
[42:29.790 --> 42:31.330]  We'll be taking listener phone calls in just a moment.
[42:31.530 --> 42:34.690]  I'd like to ask that we get as many new people as possible.
[42:34.830 --> 42:44.510]  If you're somebody who calls every week, well, take a week off so that we can get some new voices on the air because I want to hear what the world is thinking about this and people from all over the world can call.
[42:44.590 --> 42:51.650]  But the only problem is we only have one phone line and that means that we can't hop from one to the other and sometimes we have to wait a little bit.
[42:51.790 --> 42:59.790]  So again, the phone number is 212-650-5782 and also it times out very quickly so you have to have a rapid redial finger and things like that.
[42:59.990 --> 43:03.070]  I also, before we take a phone call, I'd like to touch upon this.
[43:03.190 --> 43:33.990]  We haven't really talked about it very much but there's a whole other side to this story and that is the tech companies Google and Yahoo and Facebook and all those who were basically accused of monitoring or providing all this information to the NSA in real time and of course that led to a rather fierce response from those companies and many people affiliated with them who say that it's all being
[43:33.990 --> 43:35.310]  misreported and all that.
[43:35.470 --> 43:48.650]  Haven't heard very much recently from that camp and also I have to think that these companies want this guy caught as much as the government and that's very disturbing as well.
[43:48.810 --> 43:57.490]  I haven't heard anybody really speaking out saying freedom of information deserves to be preserved any spokespeople from any of the companies that were lumped in with this.
[43:57.850 --> 44:10.190]  Has there been any change in the original allegations that were brought out when PRISM was revealed as far as real-time access Alex?
[44:10.450 --> 44:12.990]  I haven't seen anything and I think that's a fantastic point.
[44:13.190 --> 44:19.230]  These companies have really floated into the background here and I think they're very happy to be there because this affects their bottom line.
[44:19.330 --> 44:25.010]  The more they're seen to be aligned with the government's interests in massive surveillance programs the less likely people are to trust them.
[44:25.410 --> 44:44.750]  But also I think their initial statements were probably absolutely true because this goes back to the semantic issues that we discussed about three weeks ago where just about everyone in one variation or another had said that they only provide information to the government pursuant to some kind of lawful order or formal legal process.
[44:45.010 --> 44:47.510]  And as we just noted this was a legal program.
[44:47.670 --> 44:49.530]  It was authorized and it was legal.
[44:49.910 --> 44:55.630]  Whether it was moral or not is a different issue and that's what public opinion will weigh in in the months to come.
[44:56.230 --> 44:58.610]  I want to slightly disagree with you.
[44:58.850 --> 44:59.930]  You're mostly right.
[45:00.130 --> 45:17.190]  But when we say these programs are legal as you know better than I do the way we decide if things are legal in the United States is we have court cases and we generally have two sides on the court case and they argue and the court comes to a decision.
[45:17.950 --> 45:22.250]  These programs have been approved by a court that only hears one side.
[45:22.250 --> 45:26.710]  So when we say they're legal I think we have to take that with a bit of a caveat.
[45:27.030 --> 45:30.410]  And is it even a court in the traditional sense of the word?
[45:30.630 --> 45:33.850]  I don't really want to decide what's a court and what isn't.
[45:33.910 --> 45:34.850]  It calls itself a court.
[45:35.010 --> 45:35.550]  Sure it's a court.
[45:36.250 --> 45:53.790]  Well it was legal in the sense that it was authorized by statute authorized by the Patriot Act and authorized by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and as we've gone to before contesting a surveillance program is incredibly difficult and it's something that the ACLU is trying to do whether they have success or not remains to be seen.
[45:54.030 --> 46:07.650]  I have serious doubts about whether or not the federal district court will entertain the claim passed a motion to dismiss but I think it's difficult to contest the fact that these are actual legal programs.
[46:08.970 --> 46:30.710]  One important news story I think people should read from the New York Times dated June 19th begins this way and it's a very interesting beginning to a very interesting article when Max Kelly the chief security officer for Facebook left the social media company in 2010 he did not go to Google Twitter or any similar Silicon Valley concern instead the man who was responsible for protecting the
[46:30.710 --> 46:44.390]  personal information of Facebook's more than 1 billion users from outside attacks went to work for another A lot of these folks are in bed with each other.
[46:44.630 --> 46:48.350]  A lot of them know each other and move back and forth from agency to company.
[46:49.070 --> 46:51.650]  And a lot of information is shared in that alone.
[46:51.890 --> 46:56.410]  So you better believe there's a lot of interesting things going on.
[46:56.410 --> 47:20.670]  I mean, this is partially why when we hear from people who work for these companies who say, you know, no one here is involved in this, this guy, the former high-level executive at Facebook, now at the NSA, almost certainly knows exactly whom at Facebook to call to set up a program like this very quietly so that very few Facebook employees have to be told because one of them might go to the press.
[47:20.670 --> 47:27.190]  So he knows who to call, who will not go to the press, and how to create programs like this, you know, very quietly.
[47:27.210 --> 47:37.850]  And that's why even there are many good people working for all these companies, but I can't credit their denials because they're just not in a position to know.
[47:38.530 --> 47:38.970]  Absolutely.
[47:39.010 --> 47:43.210]  It's like, you know, someone in the motor vehicle department speaking for the NSA.
[47:43.710 --> 47:45.070]  It's that far removed.
[47:45.970 --> 47:49.590]  All government agencies, but need-to-know basis.
[47:49.590 --> 47:50.210]  All right.
[47:50.590 --> 47:53.650]  Again, our phone number, 212-650-5782.
[47:53.890 --> 47:54.830]  I see a number of calls coming.
[47:54.930 --> 47:57.910]  Here's one that's coming now, so let's brick this up.
[47:57.990 --> 47:58.330]  Good evening.
[47:58.330 --> 47:59.450]  You're on Off the Hook.
[48:00.050 --> 48:00.490]  Yes.
[48:00.750 --> 48:01.090]  Hi.
[48:01.230 --> 48:03.510]  I was just calling to say that it is kind of important.
[48:03.770 --> 48:05.430]  What kind of phone are you talking through?
[48:05.530 --> 48:06.270]  We can barely hear you.
[48:06.870 --> 48:07.410]  Oh, really?
[48:07.770 --> 48:07.990]  Yeah.
[48:08.350 --> 48:08.590]  Sorry.
[48:08.810 --> 48:09.370]  Just speak up.
[48:11.250 --> 48:12.590]  So, it is kind of...
[48:15.490 --> 48:16.290]  I'm sorry.
[48:16.370 --> 48:17.650]  We can't do that.
[48:17.890 --> 48:19.450]  That's just too far away.
[48:19.590 --> 48:20.590]  It's like you're on Mars or something.
[48:21.790 --> 48:23.430]  212-650-5782.
[48:23.590 --> 48:28.610]  We do want to hear from you and make sure you have a good working phone and some decent levels.
[48:30.030 --> 48:30.430]  Okay.
[48:30.470 --> 48:31.170]  Here's another phone call.
[48:31.390 --> 48:32.170]  And good evening.
[48:32.170 --> 48:33.150]  You're on Off the Hook.
[48:34.050 --> 48:34.450]  Yes.
[48:34.530 --> 48:34.750]  Hi.
[48:34.830 --> 48:36.130]  I got some questions.
[48:36.450 --> 48:36.810]  Go ahead.
[48:38.110 --> 48:38.510]  Okay.
[48:38.510 --> 48:48.870]  Well, the first thing, I would just like to just thank you guys for last summer, the HOPE Conference, the 2600, where you had William Binney on.
[48:49.050 --> 48:50.310]  William Binney, yes.
[48:50.490 --> 48:52.110]  Another NSA whistleblower.
[48:52.230 --> 48:56.270]  It's amazing how they all just keep doubling back onto each other, these stories.
[48:57.850 --> 49:00.850]  Just so that your listeners know, it's something worth just checking.
[49:01.030 --> 49:01.810]  It was just last summer.
[49:02.090 --> 49:05.810]  It really puts the... It's like follow the money kind of thing.
[49:05.810 --> 49:25.150]  The other thing is Steve Gibson, on his definition of PRISM and how the idea of PRISM is that they install these splitters, literally splitting fiber optic, just before these big companies like Google or Yahoo or Facebook.
[49:25.830 --> 49:30.010]  And in a way, Google can... They have plausible deniability.
[49:31.410 --> 49:35.810]  So Steve Gibson did that, I think it was last week or two weeks ago.
[49:36.850 --> 49:39.910]  And then it's something you could talk about.
[49:40.970 --> 49:49.310]  And then the final thing is using VPNs or cascading VPNs and then Tor to add a little bit of protection.
[49:50.010 --> 49:56.230]  But, you know, there's a lot of rumors going on around NSA backdoors into Microsoft.
[49:56.710 --> 49:59.630]  I think it goes back to 1999 where...
[50:00.010 --> 50:04.790]  They have... They found NSA encryption keys or something in Microsoft.
[50:05.710 --> 50:08.650]  Some DLL files in the Microsoft code.
[50:09.430 --> 50:09.950]  Yeah.
[50:10.670 --> 50:14.270]  Tools like that, VPNs and Tor, they're good applications.
[50:14.270 --> 50:20.710]  But it's good to, like, look at how they're built and read a little bit about what they're saying, specifically Tor.
[50:20.870 --> 50:22.670]  They speak to these kinds of questions.
[50:23.310 --> 50:31.430]  But it's also good to run your own stuff, you know, build your own networks and try... I mean, you know, depending on time and, you know, your skill level.
[50:31.590 --> 50:33.910]  But, you know, think about that in the back of your mind.
[50:34.030 --> 50:44.630]  It's not a bad idea to try to come up with, like, clever ways of doing things if you do have sensitive stuff that needs to be communicated one way or another or you're concerned about it.
[50:45.270 --> 50:49.870]  As far as the beam splitting technology, I think that's something we'll probably talk about a little bit more.
[50:50.190 --> 50:51.290]  But it is possible.
[50:51.710 --> 51:00.810]  And, like, the PRISM program itself is sort of an acronym or a code name for the access that the government wanted and stuff like that.
[51:00.910 --> 51:19.290]  But it's distinct from the actual technology of optical beam splitting, which does, I believe, involve some kind of PRISM to take your single, like, single-mode laser optics coming in and then, like, split off so that you have sort of multiple outputs.
[51:19.290 --> 51:23.690]  It's like splitting audio so that you can have a... so you can share your headphones with somebody.
[51:23.810 --> 51:25.410]  It's the same idea, but with optics.
[51:25.790 --> 51:26.650]  Thanks for your call.
[51:26.810 --> 51:28.470]  We're going to move on to another call.
[51:28.970 --> 51:33.450]  212-650-5782 is our telephone number.
[51:33.810 --> 51:36.770]  And we welcome calls from anywhere in the world, obviously.
[51:37.830 --> 51:40.650]  We just have to wait for the green light to start up again.
[51:40.730 --> 51:41.190]  Alex, get to me.
[51:41.610 --> 51:41.810]  Sure.
[51:42.050 --> 51:45.390]  And while we're waiting for a call, I mean, I think... let's just talk very briefly about...
[51:45.390 --> 51:45.730]  We have a call.
[51:45.750 --> 51:46.250]  Oh, we have one.
[51:46.270 --> 51:46.370]  Let's take one.
[51:46.370 --> 51:47.850]  So if we talk briefly, we're going to lose the call.
[51:47.950 --> 51:49.510]  So let's take that right now.
[51:49.590 --> 51:49.870]  Good evening.
[51:49.990 --> 51:50.610]  You're on off the hook.
[51:51.430 --> 51:52.350]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[51:52.510 --> 51:53.510]  This is Bobson from Bulgaria.
[51:53.750 --> 51:54.590]  Bobson from Bulgaria.
[51:54.630 --> 51:55.250]  How are you?
[51:56.230 --> 51:56.810]  All right.
[51:57.350 --> 52:15.710]  I just wanted to tell you about... you keep mentioning poll numbers about how people think... what percentage of people think one thing about the Snowden case and what percentage... those numbers, the percentages and the poll numbers are irrelevant.
[52:15.710 --> 52:16.950]  They mean nothing.
[52:17.150 --> 52:18.030]  I mean, think about it.
[52:18.490 --> 52:25.830]  Someone prints numbers that are convenient to the publication that prints them and the propaganda they are trying to sell.
[52:25.970 --> 52:35.230]  I don't think anyone has seen any of the raw data that allegedly has been collected based on which raw data... alleged raw data.
[52:35.430 --> 52:39.630]  The numbers have been computed and the methods by which they have been obtained.
[52:40.050 --> 52:48.270]  So... Well, they need to be challenged one way or another because simply printing the numbers, even if they are completely untrue, can influence the way people think about this.
[52:48.430 --> 52:58.590]  Well, what I'm saying is that I'm trying to tell you that there's no reason to worry about how people think because someone prints some numbers somewhere.
[52:58.650 --> 53:13.430]  And I hear that you have some concerns about the numbers you've seen in various media who have their own reasons of printing whatever numbers they come up with by whatever means they come up with.
[53:13.430 --> 53:21.690]  Well, I think there's plenty of reason to worry about perception and about how this story will be spun and what the American public will let the government get away with.
[53:21.790 --> 53:22.070]  Rob?
[53:22.330 --> 53:24.010]  Yeah, I mean, Bobson, you're absolutely right.
[53:24.370 --> 53:28.390]  When they print any statistic, you know, that gets printed in the papers.
[53:28.510 --> 53:30.870]  People read it and then they think, oh, most people think this way.
[53:30.950 --> 53:31.810]  I should think that way.
[53:31.810 --> 53:41.290]  And it's really one of the oldest sort of social manipulation tricks in the book is to give people something comforting to say, yeah, it's okay to feel like this.
[53:41.330 --> 53:42.210]  All your friends feel like this.
[53:42.290 --> 53:43.350]  All the cool people feel like this.
[53:43.450 --> 53:44.410]  Therefore, we're fine.
[53:45.170 --> 53:51.370]  And on that very point, I recently read that 73 percent of all statistics were made up on the spot.
[53:52.050 --> 53:52.650]  Very good.
[53:52.790 --> 53:53.070]  Very good.
[53:53.170 --> 53:54.410]  Bobson, thank you for that call.
[53:54.550 --> 53:59.610]  And we will see you at OM coming up in late July in the Netherlands, correct?
[54:01.050 --> 54:01.390]  Okay.
[54:01.530 --> 54:05.190]  Well, hopefully, hopefully I'll have less of a time delay on the conversations there.
[54:05.350 --> 54:12.130]  And by the way, folks who want to be a part of OM, you're running out of time because I think tickets are about to sell out.
[54:12.330 --> 54:16.570]  Go to ohm2013.org, OM2013.org.
[54:17.070 --> 54:20.550]  And of course, OM stands for Observe, Hack, Make.
[54:21.070 --> 54:22.610]  That's the Dutch Hacker Camp.
[54:22.790 --> 54:26.470]  They take place only once every four years over in the Netherlands.
[54:26.750 --> 54:28.550]  And we have a village.
[54:28.730 --> 54:37.410]  The 2600 village will be staking its claim somewhere in the north, I'm told, is where we're going to be, north of the campsite.
[54:37.590 --> 54:41.670]  And we have, Kyle, we've been brainstorming on a few things.
[54:41.830 --> 54:43.430]  A hacker writing workshop.
[54:44.030 --> 54:47.230]  We're going to try and create the hacker bill of rights.
[54:47.930 --> 54:48.370]  Yeah.
[54:48.610 --> 54:50.770]  I think it's high time we did something like that.
[54:51.390 --> 54:54.030]  Of course, there'll be Club Mate recipes of various sorts.
[54:54.270 --> 54:57.510]  And we'll be building a tree house and having barbecues and things like that.
[54:57.610 --> 55:01.310]  But also, some very, very important discussions will be taking place.
[55:01.350 --> 55:09.050]  And it's a chance to really brainstorm about the future of hackers, the future of the hacker community, what we can do about issues like this.
[55:09.850 --> 55:11.390]  And maybe Ed Snowden will be there.
[55:11.390 --> 55:11.710]  Yeah.
[55:11.890 --> 55:12.810]  So can you take it now?
[55:13.910 --> 55:14.830]  No, I doubt it.
[55:15.170 --> 55:15.350]  Okay.
[55:15.410 --> 55:18.670]  So our phone number again, 212-650-5782.
[55:18.890 --> 55:20.350]  Let's see if we can squeeze in one more call.
[55:20.430 --> 55:20.730]  Good evening.
[55:20.870 --> 55:21.670]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:22.470 --> 55:23.110]  Good evening.
[55:23.610 --> 55:24.010]  Hi.
[55:24.070 --> 55:24.490]  What's on your mind?
[55:24.690 --> 55:27.270]  I read an article by John Rappaport.
[55:27.930 --> 55:35.110]  And he was saying that it was inconceivable that Snowden was able to get such easy access to so much information.
[55:35.590 --> 55:47.530]  And he feels that Snowden is working for the CIA and that the CIA is in competition with NSA for taxpayer dollars because NSA has just been given a lot more money and CIA has been cut.
[55:48.150 --> 55:50.830]  And I think it's a very interesting idea.
[55:50.830 --> 55:57.850]  And I was wondering if anybody has read the article there or if you could read it and comment on it next week.
[55:58.170 --> 56:00.510]  Well, I'll certainly look for that one.
[56:00.550 --> 56:01.990]  That sounds pretty intriguing.
[56:02.190 --> 56:06.170]  That's sort of a double, quadruple agent type scenario going on here.
[56:06.250 --> 56:07.650]  Any thoughts on that, anyone?
[56:08.670 --> 56:11.090]  I thought The President's Analyst was a fantastic movie.
[56:11.610 --> 56:11.870]  Yeah.
[56:12.050 --> 56:12.230]  Yeah.
[56:12.410 --> 56:14.010]  I think we're going to have to leave it there, though.
[56:14.130 --> 56:15.930]  But thanks for that.
[56:16.010 --> 56:16.670]  Thanks for that thought.
[56:17.810 --> 56:20.650]  Our email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[56:20.790 --> 56:25.570]  Please write to us with your thoughts, feelings, opinions, criticism, praise, what have you.
[56:25.930 --> 56:26.750]  It's Emmanuel for Off the Hook.
[56:26.870 --> 56:28.890]  Stay tuned for the personal computer show here on WBAI.
[56:29.010 --> 56:29.170]  Good night.
[56:36.550 --> 56:38.050]  We know what you've been up to.
[56:38.390 --> 56:40.070]  We know what you've been up to.
[56:40.290 --> 56:41.150]  Camera in the hallway.
[56:41.670 --> 56:42.790]  Got a book in the painful.
[56:43.410 --> 56:44.610]  Got a lot of people covered.
[56:45.230 --> 56:46.410]  But nobody knows.
[56:47.070 --> 56:48.270]  Your TV is two-way.
[56:48.670 --> 56:50.050]  We can see you on the freeway.
[56:50.470 --> 56:51.770]  We can digitize and criticize you.
[56:51.830 --> 56:52.810]  Lock you in the prison so you're out.
[56:52.870 --> 56:53.310]  No charge.
[56:53.450 --> 56:53.910]  The bills are on.
[56:53.970 --> 56:54.510]  Soft sale.
[56:54.590 --> 56:54.970]  Hard as hell.
[56:55.070 --> 56:57.210]  My bell is not becoming no rights if you're left behind.
[56:57.750 --> 56:59.390]  Turn on the tube for your full injection.
[56:59.650 --> 57:01.330]  Thanks for the f*cking with your last bill that said.
[57:01.450 --> 57:03.130]  Tuckers, we own the newspaper now.
[57:03.430 --> 57:04.570]  We own the TV.
[57:04.890 --> 57:06.430]  Tuckers, we own the satellites.
[57:07.030 --> 57:08.030]  We get smart TV.
[57:08.210 --> 57:09.150]  Got a laser for your window.
[57:09.870 --> 57:10.910]  Hear everything to say.
[57:11.290 --> 57:12.550]  You're not talking politics.
[57:13.130 --> 57:14.350]  But we listen anyway.
[57:15.250 --> 57:16.730]  We know what.
[57:25.740 --> 57:27.440]  Better wake up and check the time.
[57:28.040 --> 57:30.980]  Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.
[57:31.160 --> 57:32.080]  Right now.
[57:33.080 --> 57:34.620]  Better wake up and check the time.
[57:35.160 --> 57:36.500]  Hey, hey, hey, yo.
[57:36.660 --> 57:38.340]  Better wake up and check the time.
[57:38.720 --> 57:39.280]  Right now.
[57:40.000 --> 57:42.600]  Right now.バッ noah.
[57:43.560 --> 57:46.540]  And if
[58:01.410 --> 58:03.370]  you're like a unit is nothing wrong.
[58:04.110 --> 58:04.370]  I
[58:37.400 --> 58:39.700]  don't want your waking up.
[58:41.600 --> 58:42.880]  Here we're in the hallway.
[58:43.460 --> 58:45.240]  We know what you went up to.
[58:45.500 --> 58:46.620]  Bug in the pinball.
[58:47.060 --> 58:50.020]  We know what Got a lot of people covered!
[58:50.740 --> 58:52.420]  We know what you've got up to!
[58:55.940 --> 58:57.580]  Your TV are two ways!
[58:58.220 --> 58:59.620]  We know what you've got up to!
[58:59.840 --> 59:01.080]  We can see you on the subway!
[59:01.640 --> 59:04.920]  It is the premier, sister!
[59:07.220 --> 59:10.740]  We know what you've got up to!
[01:00:09.850 --> 01:00:10.530]  Woo!
[01:00:11.630 --> 01:00:13.570]  They have great music.
[01:00:13.810 --> 01:00:17.350]  Great music they have all the time on Off The Hook.
[01:00:18.090 --> 01:00:20.710]  It's one thing I know about them.
[01:00:21.870 --> 01:00:29.390]  And speaking of Off The Hook, or the heezy, as the young folks say,
[01:00:33.130 --> 01:00:35.530]  we're going to bring you some good stuff here.