[00:00.000 --> 00:03.020] Your donation keeps this program on the air. [00:03.320 --> 00:13.160] Go to TUC Radio's website, tucradio.org, for the address and donate buttons. [00:13.600 --> 00:17.700] There you can also subscribe to weekly free podcasts. [00:18.300 --> 00:20.420] My name is Maria Gelauden. [00:20.900 --> 00:22.400] Thank you for listening. [00:22.660 --> 00:23.360] Give us a call. [00:38.110 --> 00:41.170] And the time is just about 7pm. [00:41.170 --> 00:44.290] You're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM. [00:44.610 --> 00:48.170] And it's about time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook. [01:40.060 --> 01:41.520] And a very good evening to you. [01:41.700 --> 01:42.650] The show is Off the Hook. [01:42.800 --> 01:43.200] Rob T. [01:43.320 --> 01:44.080] Firefly here with you. [01:44.200 --> 01:45.700] I'm joined in the studio by Mike. [01:45.880 --> 01:46.300] Hi there. [01:46.660 --> 01:47.180] And Alex. [01:47.440 --> 01:47.800] Good evening. [01:48.320 --> 01:50.340] And on the phone, I believe we have Bernie S. [01:50.710 --> 01:51.860] Greetings from Pennsylvania. [01:52.180 --> 01:55.080] And the international man of mystery, Emanuel Goldstein. [01:56.120 --> 01:57.160] Hi, this is Emanuel. [01:57.500 --> 01:58.520] And this is Kyle. [01:58.960 --> 02:02.660] And we're coming to you from... you guys want to guess where we're coming to you from? [02:03.880 --> 02:04.280] Dubrovnik. [02:04.280 --> 02:04.360] Dubrovnik. [02:04.840 --> 02:07.040] No, not Dubrovnik, but that's a good guess, Alex. [02:07.340 --> 02:07.720] Sheboygan? [02:07.800 --> 02:09.560] Because we were going to go there, but we didn't. [02:10.660 --> 02:11.040] Newark. [02:11.460 --> 02:13.620] But, no, I have a hint for you. [02:13.780 --> 02:17.840] There is a Game of Thrones relation to where we are. [02:18.000 --> 02:20.490] So if you want to give one more guess, I'll allow that. [02:21.240 --> 02:22.000] Oh, jeez. [02:22.180 --> 02:22.940] Game of Thrones. [02:23.180 --> 02:23.320] Hmm. [02:25.560 --> 02:26.580] It's not New Zealand. [02:26.720 --> 02:27.600] That was Lord of the Rings. [02:28.100 --> 02:28.430] No. [02:28.820 --> 02:29.160] Yeah. [02:29.710 --> 02:33.780] I don't want to make this drag on too long, but you have five seconds. [02:34.280 --> 02:35.150] I give up. [02:35.440 --> 02:35.900] Okay. [02:36.000 --> 02:38.780] Belfast, Northern Ireland is where Kyle and I are right now. [02:39.520 --> 02:45.460] And this is one of the last legs of our post-home voyage throughout Europe. [02:46.220 --> 02:52.220] And basically, we're kind of wandering around. [02:52.360 --> 02:56.940] We're seeing various interesting places, a bit of history. [02:57.280 --> 02:58.540] We have a listener, actually. [02:59.440 --> 03:10.120] Sean, one of our devoted Alpha Hoek listeners, who has been showing us around Belfast, an incredible city, really interesting place to witness some history. [03:10.660 --> 03:13.900] I'd like to just introduce him for a moment on the radio. [03:13.900 --> 03:19.920] If you guys want to ask him any questions or say anything that's on your mind. [03:20.020 --> 03:20.600] Here's Sean. [03:22.100 --> 03:22.860] Hello, everyone. [03:23.060 --> 03:23.600] Hi, Sean. [03:23.800 --> 03:24.160] Hey, Sean. [03:24.720 --> 03:25.000] Hi. [03:25.200 --> 03:27.800] What's something that our listeners should know about Belfast? [03:30.920 --> 03:35.660] Usually, it gets a bad reputation due to the media perception. [03:36.500 --> 03:38.200] But it's not really a bad place. [03:38.300 --> 03:39.720] It's quite a nice city to live in. [03:39.880 --> 03:43.340] So the media lies about Belfast and so many other things. [03:43.920 --> 03:44.740] Yeah, yeah. [03:44.940 --> 03:45.800] Well, that's to be expected. [03:46.200 --> 03:46.660] Hey, Sean. [03:47.040 --> 03:47.800] Yes, Bernie. [03:47.900 --> 03:48.760] This is Bernie S. [03:48.860 --> 04:06.480] I was listening to a recording of a 1974 CBS News broadcast that my father had made back then, talking about bombings and all the social unrest going on at the time. [04:06.580 --> 04:11.420] And it was really fascinating listening to it, because I was just a little kid then, and I wasn't really aware of what was going on. [04:12.060 --> 04:15.540] But obviously, that's all over now. [04:15.640 --> 04:19.970] But how much of the echoes of that are still alive there in Belfast? [04:20.700 --> 04:21.230] Yes. [04:21.360 --> 04:30.580] Well, there is residual elements within society that will persist in a campaign that really doesn't have any support. [04:31.880 --> 04:44.080] And how do you deal with people like that, other than talking to them and trying to convince them that, listen, we need to make Belfast a place where we can all live and we can all have a shared future. [04:45.270 --> 04:52.620] But that's, you know, I mean, unfortunately, there are issues that are particularly potent. [04:53.060 --> 04:56.360] And whenever you kind of just scrape the surface, they generally come out. [04:56.440 --> 05:03.360] So you may have seen it recently with riots over marching and flag issues and whatever. [05:03.360 --> 05:06.600] But, you know, hopefully we can deal with those in the future. [05:06.740 --> 05:09.400] But the main thing is that everybody continues talking. [05:09.940 --> 05:16.280] This sounds, Bernie, like part of the bad reputation of Belfast that we were just told is a lie from the media. [05:17.700 --> 05:19.320] A lie or alive? [05:19.840 --> 05:20.440] A lie. [05:21.020 --> 05:21.500] Untrue. [05:21.580 --> 05:22.380] We were just told. [05:22.860 --> 05:25.740] There was definitely a lot of violence happening in 1974. [05:25.740 --> 05:27.560] In the years past? [05:27.560 --> 05:28.160] Right, right. [05:28.280 --> 05:33.380] But, you know, that's why I said how much of the echoes of that are ringing there now. [05:33.520 --> 05:34.580] Or is it completely go over? [05:35.720 --> 05:40.240] Bernie, just to clarify, it's really, you know, it's negligible. [05:40.640 --> 05:42.500] It really doesn't exist. [05:42.900 --> 05:46.240] You know, you shouldn't really listen to the media regarding Belfast. [05:47.660 --> 05:49.460] Because, you know, incidents happen. [05:49.620 --> 05:52.500] But, you know, in terms of violence, Belfast is a very safe city. [05:52.500 --> 05:53.220] Oh, I'm sure. [05:53.460 --> 05:57.600] I just meant, I mean, culturally, you know, in people's psyches sort of thing is what I meant. [05:57.940 --> 05:59.380] Yeah, well, you know, what do you do? [05:59.480 --> 06:00.860] You know, there was a war here. [06:01.000 --> 06:07.000] So, you know, it's, you know, the ramifications of that for people and families are there. [06:07.160 --> 06:07.800] People died. [06:08.940 --> 06:09.760] People got injured. [06:10.060 --> 06:11.820] You know, and people have to deal with that every day. [06:11.940 --> 06:14.200] So, you know, it can't just go away. [06:14.360 --> 06:21.240] But hopefully over time it'll, you know, it'll be something that can just go into history and we can all move forward. [06:21.240 --> 06:23.460] Okay, I've got one more question for you, Sean. [06:24.040 --> 06:25.760] How are Emmanuel and Kyle treating you? [06:25.880 --> 06:27.060] They're not giving you too much grief, are they? [06:27.580 --> 06:28.460] No, no. [06:30.220 --> 06:34.280] You can tell us because they can hear what you say, but not the question, so... [06:34.280 --> 06:35.200] Oh, my God. [06:35.400 --> 06:37.160] They are like an old couple. [06:37.340 --> 06:38.780] They just bicker and bicker. [06:40.140 --> 06:40.680] You know? [06:41.360 --> 06:42.760] But I'm sure you guys know that, yeah. [06:43.440 --> 06:44.200] All too well. [06:44.700 --> 06:44.860] Yeah. [06:45.200 --> 06:45.420] Indeed. [06:45.560 --> 06:47.180] Thanks for taking them off our hands for a bit. [06:47.920 --> 06:48.780] No problem, guys. [06:51.540 --> 06:54.200] Okay, so we've got a lot going on this week. [06:54.420 --> 07:00.560] One particular story came to another head today when... [07:00.560 --> 07:01.580] I don't even know... [07:01.580 --> 07:03.500] Like, that doesn't even narrow it down, Rob. [07:03.640 --> 07:05.420] There's so much going on in the world. [07:05.900 --> 07:08.580] There's a lot, but I think we know which one we're talking about. [07:08.660 --> 07:14.080] This actually made the headlines throughout the world, and we're talking, of course, about the Bradley Manning sentencing, which took place today. [07:14.080 --> 07:15.100] Yes, indeed. [07:15.600 --> 07:22.360] And so Bradley Manning, his prosecutors had asked for a sentence as high as... [07:23.340 --> 07:24.080] Excuse me. [07:25.080 --> 07:27.600] The prosecutors, I believe, asked for 60 years. [07:27.740 --> 07:28.000] They asked for 60. [07:28.000 --> 07:29.000] He could have got up to 90. [07:29.760 --> 07:32.320] Should I just finish it and say what the sentence was? [07:32.560 --> 07:33.460] I think you should. [07:33.580 --> 07:37.240] He was sentenced to 35 years in military prison. [07:37.760 --> 07:38.560] 35 years. [07:38.780 --> 07:42.360] To bring some comparison up, he's 25 years old. [07:43.580 --> 07:46.100] So he's got the credit for the time served. [07:46.300 --> 07:47.240] So, gee, lucky him. [07:47.380 --> 07:49.440] He's only got, what, 32 more years? [07:49.780 --> 07:51.180] This is insane. [07:52.480 --> 07:55.140] So he'd be about, like, 48? [07:55.420 --> 07:56.700] I'm really bad at math. [07:56.800 --> 07:59.700] If he serves his entire sentence, he'll be... [07:59.700 --> 08:02.660] He'll have been in jail for longer than he has not been in jail. [08:03.220 --> 08:07.000] Right, and he's eligible for parole in seven years, apparently. [08:07.720 --> 08:12.960] Yeah, after serving a third of his sentence, which will be reduced by the time he's already served in prison, plus 112 days. [08:14.920 --> 08:15.800] Yeah, that's right. [08:16.020 --> 08:17.660] And, yeah, it would be one third. [08:17.920 --> 08:20.280] I mean, it's really insane. [08:20.700 --> 08:22.840] I mean, it could have been a lot worse. [08:23.000 --> 08:23.800] It could have been a lot worse. [08:23.800 --> 08:28.020] But I think, you know, what happens next is going to be really interesting. [08:29.240 --> 08:30.920] It's a bizarre process. [08:31.600 --> 08:35.500] I mean, Manning's attorney has said that he's going to pardon... [08:35.500 --> 08:37.900] He's going to ask President Obama for a pardon. [08:38.120 --> 08:41.000] But that's actually not the next step of what happens here. [08:41.000 --> 09:00.780] It's a kind of odd military justice procedural issue where now under Article 60 of the UCMJ, once the record of trial is actually certified, Manning's going to have 10 days to petition for clemency from the convening authority of the court-martial, which is an individual called Jeffrey Buchanan. [09:00.780 --> 09:13.710] Alex, when he doesn't get that, because, you know, like, I don't want to sound too pessimistic, but relying on the goodwill of his superior officers seems not to be the ideal strategy. [09:14.210 --> 09:14.570] Well, that's exactly right. [09:14.690 --> 09:16.930] I mean, I don't... he has the opportunity to do it. [09:17.000 --> 09:19.650] Whether he's going to get any clemency remains to be seen. [09:19.720 --> 09:30.270] But he may shave some time off this because, you know, remember what we discussed over the past few weeks, and you may have missed it, but the convening authority is essentially the general who referred the charges to the court-martial. [09:30.270 --> 09:33.100] He also appointed military judge Denise Lynn. [09:33.450 --> 09:36.690] And this is a very, very weird thing about the military justice process. [09:36.690 --> 09:43.710] If there was a jury known as a panel, the convening authority would have also appointed the jury. [09:43.950 --> 09:45.210] It's totally insane. [09:45.390 --> 09:49.530] So the convening authority is in many ways like a very, very powerful district attorney. [09:50.430 --> 09:53.890] And if Manning is not going to see clemency, he actually has to do that in writing. [09:54.070 --> 09:56.980] So this general, General Buchanan, he's a major general in the Army. [09:57.070 --> 09:58.910] He's been in the Army for just over 30 years. [10:00.270 --> 10:03.580] He has the option of reducing the sentence or throwing out the entire sentence. [10:03.790 --> 10:08.460] Now, this sounds completely bizarre, but in a military context, it kind of makes sense. [10:08.650 --> 10:10.430] It's what's known as command prerogative. [10:10.570 --> 10:11.740] The general is in charge. [10:11.980 --> 10:15.620] This prerogative, however, is limited to the power of clemency. [10:15.740 --> 10:17.810] So the convening authority couldn't go the other way. [10:18.000 --> 10:23.450] He couldn't, on the other hand, overturn a not guilty verdict or add time to Manning's sentence, which now this is a very good thing. [10:24.310 --> 10:33.290] But to make this a termination, he's going to get a memo from his SJA, his staff judge advocate, basically recommending what he ought to do in this case. [10:33.290 --> 10:35.670] Like Mike said, I don't think we should hope for anything. [10:35.980 --> 10:52.290] But if he does reduce some of the years in which Manning is supposed to be confined, then that would reduce the one-third of time that he has to serve before he's eligible for parole, which could make a really measurable difference, especially since he's already got four years. [10:52.500 --> 11:08.960] Well, Alex, the reason I'm pessimistic about this is because everywhere I'm reading about the case, about the sentencing, it's being portrayed as a victory for the defense because they wanted 60 years and they only got 35. [11:09.440 --> 11:09.770] Exactly. [11:10.220 --> 11:16.080] And that's why I think that the judge or nobody is going to reduce this anymore. [11:16.080 --> 11:19.180] Or this is seen as a victory for the defense, which I think is ridiculous. [11:19.200 --> 11:20.860] I don't think it's a victory at all. [11:21.060 --> 11:23.320] I think it's a horrible miscarriage of justice. [11:24.370 --> 11:33.840] And I also wonder, and maybe Alex, you can explain this to me, seven years is what David Combs is saying is the amount of time that Bradley will be eligible for parole. [11:34.220 --> 11:37.100] And last I checked, seven times three is not 35. [11:37.530 --> 11:38.920] So do you know how he got to that figure? [11:39.040 --> 11:43.390] Yeah, that's right, because he's already had four years basically in detention. [11:43.390 --> 11:51.540] So it's seven plus four equals just about 12, which is one third of, which is just over one third of 35. [11:51.910 --> 11:52.680] So with the time served. [11:52.820 --> 11:53.720] With the time served. [11:54.270 --> 11:54.650] Yeah. [11:54.840 --> 11:59.300] And Amnesty International is already calling on President Obama to commute his sentence. [12:00.200 --> 12:08.320] Whitney Brown, the senior director of international law and policy at Amnesty, said, instead of fighting tooth and nail to lock him up for the equivalent of several life sentences, the U.S. [12:08.390 --> 12:15.060] government should turn its attention to investigating and delivering justice for the serious human rights abuses committed by its officials in the name of countering terror. [12:15.320 --> 12:21.910] That, of course, referring to just one example of the information that Manning leaked via WikiLeaks. [12:23.440 --> 12:25.740] So where else can we go from here? [12:26.290 --> 12:30.500] Well, there's also an automatic appeal to the Army Court of Criminal Appeals. [12:30.620 --> 12:32.560] Now, these guys are also military judges. [12:32.560 --> 12:39.460] They are usually colonels in the JAG Corps or whatever service in which they're serving. [12:39.460 --> 12:46.920] So this would be probably Army colonels who are going to review this sentence and any issues of law that the defense is going to raise. [12:46.920 --> 12:50.940] And from there, he has the right to petition the U.S. [12:51.040 --> 12:52.270] Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces. [12:52.410 --> 12:57.500] I actually clerked for that court for just about a year and a half when I was out of law school. [12:57.820 --> 13:06.920] And from there, he has the right not to make a direct petition, actually, but to make a petition for writ of habeas corpus to the U.S. [13:07.040 --> 13:07.600] Supreme Court. [13:07.940 --> 13:13.620] So in as much as it looks like the legal battle is over, it's just a new chapter starting. [13:13.620 --> 13:15.300] It's the appellate process starting now. [13:16.200 --> 13:17.220] Let's hold out hope. [13:17.460 --> 13:22.980] In your experience, Alex, do any of these appeals courts ever do anything nice for people who aren't rapists? [13:23.080 --> 13:29.000] Because we know the military justice system is very nice to rapists and also to people who kill non-Americans. [13:29.270 --> 13:32.420] But for people with consciences, is there any hope? [13:32.700 --> 13:34.860] This is a very, very unique case. [13:34.860 --> 13:37.530] I think it's an issue of first impression. [13:38.650 --> 13:46.800] I do have to say, though, that the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces is very unique because it's a military court, but it's a federal court. [13:46.920 --> 13:51.170] And these are judges that are appointed by the President of the United States. [13:51.300 --> 13:52.800] They aren't military judges. [13:53.040 --> 13:54.600] A lot of them have military experience. [13:54.600 --> 14:02.740] But I think we can look to that court for some really, I think, objective legal reasoning. [14:03.200 --> 14:05.000] I'm not saying that because I used to work there. [14:05.300 --> 14:07.650] But it's possible. [14:07.650 --> 14:10.920] I don't think we'll see anything from the Army CCA, but who knows? [14:11.040 --> 14:14.240] I mean, his lawyer seems like he's done a good job. [14:14.530 --> 14:17.300] I wonder if he's going to be handling the appeals process as well. [14:17.390 --> 14:20.770] If they come up with some really novel legal issues, I'd love to hear them. [14:20.770 --> 14:22.480] And I want to see how it plays out. [14:22.560 --> 14:24.540] And I would love to see the sentence reduced. [14:25.040 --> 14:40.670] Well, Alex, before we move on to the next of quite a few stories that we have to get to tonight, it's just staggering to me to see that the perpetrators of the collateral murder incident, have they even been identified? [14:40.700 --> 14:44.270] And if they've even been identified, have they been prosecuted? [14:44.410 --> 14:46.890] And if they've been prosecuted, have they been convicted? [14:47.150 --> 14:48.620] I think the answer to all of those is no. [14:48.770 --> 14:49.100] Am I correct? [14:49.100 --> 14:50.920] I think the answer to all those is no. [14:51.720 --> 14:52.440] That's insane. [14:52.700 --> 14:53.720] That is totally insane. [14:53.720 --> 15:00.720] And I think the whole world sees that and is not fooled by this ridiculous sentence that was handed out today. [15:00.920 --> 15:01.940] And the whole world is watching. [15:02.040 --> 15:06.800] Emmanuel and Kyle, you guys have been traveling while this has been going on and talking to a lot of people, I imagine. [15:07.060 --> 15:12.240] Have you seen any particular sentiments being expressed out there about all this? [15:15.180 --> 15:15.920] Well, yeah. [15:16.080 --> 15:22.160] I mean, we've seen pretty much outrage everywhere that we've talked to people about this particular case. [15:24.120 --> 15:28.960] And it's true that, you know, not just in the hacker world. [15:29.160 --> 15:37.120] We talk to people in the streets, people that just have a passing of familiarity with the case. [15:37.120 --> 15:47.780] And there's just something so wrong about someone who reveals the truth being seen as the problem instead of the horrible facts of that truth. [15:48.060 --> 15:50.040] And this goes for the Snowden case. [15:50.040 --> 15:51.840] This goes for the Bradley Manning case. [15:51.840 --> 15:55.680] This goes for all the WikiLeak incidents that have been taking place. [15:56.200 --> 15:59.100] This goes for Glenn Greenwald's reports. [16:00.960 --> 16:12.120] Basically, we're missing a huge opportunity here to actually deal with problems that are being revealed, whether it's NSA spying or murder of innocent civilians. [16:12.440 --> 16:17.680] And instead, we're focusing on how did this information get into, quote-unquote, the wrong hands. [16:18.760 --> 16:23.040] And, you know, the American public might be fooled a little bit, but I don't think the rest of the world is. [16:23.040 --> 16:28.120] I also think... I agree, but I also think that, like, the American public's in control. [16:28.660 --> 16:43.120] And really, the machinations of this, like, military court system, as well as the Defense Department and all these things is, like, sort of still moving without direction. [16:43.120 --> 16:46.800] We can influence that direction as a nation. [16:46.800 --> 16:55.040] And I think, yeah, I mean, requesting a pardon from the President is, that's, I think, a little bit of a wishful thought. [16:55.040 --> 16:57.940] But it's kind of the direction we need to go. [16:58.060 --> 17:00.960] We need to take hold of this moment, because I think a lot of people are paying attention. [17:01.140 --> 17:03.800] They're really waiting for some leadership from citizens. [17:04.840 --> 17:15.920] And, you know, those tried-and-true methods, like talking to your senators, all that kind of stuff, is definitely kind of the next move, realistically, if we're going to do anything kind of positive to counter this. [17:15.920 --> 17:29.880] Alex, I wanted to ask you, Alex, I believe I read that Bradley Manning is going to be serving his sentence of imprisonment in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, which is a military prison. [17:30.140 --> 17:38.820] What kind of conditions and treatment can we expect Bradley to suffer there? [17:39.460 --> 17:40.680] I didn't know that. [17:40.840 --> 17:42.100] Thank you for telling me. [17:42.260 --> 17:43.340] That's interesting. [17:45.180 --> 17:54.260] You know, I have to say, I think, during my tenure as a law clerk, I saw some really unfortunate cases coming out of Leavenworth. [17:54.360 --> 17:55.540] I think it was Leavenworth. [17:56.080 --> 17:59.680] I think it's a pretty antiquated facility, if I remember correctly. [18:00.660 --> 18:05.360] And I think, yeah, and I wish I knew that because I would have researched it before. [18:05.360 --> 18:21.300] I can come back next week with more accuracy, but I do believe that I saw some cases coming up to the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces about cruel and unusual detention practices and basically, you know... [18:21.300 --> 18:32.320] Which Bradley has already suffered and I believe received a paltry 112 days credit for having suffered that when he was originally detained. [18:32.320 --> 18:32.860] Is that right? [18:33.120 --> 18:34.260] I believe that's right. [18:34.480 --> 18:35.300] I believe that's right. [18:35.500 --> 18:38.480] And so Leavenworth, it's a very, very old facility. [18:39.020 --> 18:45.300] I know that it doesn't have proper ventilation and circulation, and it's not going to be pleasant. [18:45.300 --> 18:46.300] I didn't know that. [18:46.920 --> 18:48.560] God, it's horrible. [18:49.020 --> 19:04.540] I think we should also step back from this a little bit and look really broadly or maybe like the long term and realize that, yeah, this is sort of justice in that, like, they're trying to demonstrate what happens. [19:04.540 --> 19:12.200] What happens when you do not cooperate, when you don't follow the rules, you get this slap on your wrists. [19:12.200 --> 19:30.540] And I know that's a gross exaggeration of what's actually going on here, but I think what is going to really impress these institutions, this machination, this thing that's just continuing to move with bizarre leadership, either from us or our leaders in office, [19:30.540 --> 19:34.160] is that it's going to infuriate people. [19:34.480 --> 19:41.940] There's going to be generations of people that are working in these facilities that are like, you know, this is kind of stodgy. [19:42.040 --> 19:48.640] This isn't really creating the group of states, this union. [19:48.920 --> 19:55.240] I'm not sure this is what I want for my life and for my family, for my community, for my state, for my region. [19:56.000 --> 20:03.340] And I really, really hope there's a swell of support for people to kind of push in a completely new direction. [20:03.340 --> 20:15.800] I really think that people are going to be infuriated, and this is not going to be the end of these kinds of leaks with people, younger and more and more people involved in these kinds of organizations, whether with contractors or officially with the government. [20:15.980 --> 20:23.380] I do think, Kyle, there's a lesson, though, for future whistleblowers, which is that get out of the United States. [20:23.380 --> 20:23.440] Yes. [20:24.740 --> 20:35.980] Edward Snowden, he's in Russia, which is maybe not the most pleasant place in the world, but at least he's not in prison because he had the foresight to flee before he could be sentenced to a thing like this. [20:37.020 --> 20:44.520] And it's really sad that people have to leave the United States in order to protect themselves in this sort of thing. [20:44.520 --> 20:46.740] But this is what the government is saying. [20:46.840 --> 20:54.800] The government is saying, if you encounter wrongdoing and you expose it, we will punish you, not the wrongdoer. [20:55.360 --> 20:57.280] And the lesson here is get out. [20:58.640 --> 20:59.040] Yep. [20:59.040 --> 21:00.420] I agree with you. [21:00.480 --> 21:01.540] And what does this say? [21:01.660 --> 21:06.580] What kind of message does this give to Snowden, right, with these overtures that the State Department was making? [21:06.740 --> 21:07.660] Come on back here. [21:07.740 --> 21:08.800] We'll give you a fair trial. [21:08.800 --> 21:08.820] Yeah. [21:09.060 --> 21:10.500] And then 35 years. [21:10.600 --> 21:11.560] I mean, this is insane. [21:11.700 --> 21:19.320] I mean, but I mean, more to Kyle's point, I do think, I hope that this is invigorating, but I do think that it's very, very sad. [21:19.480 --> 21:24.540] I mean, we have a young man here who is facing decades in prison and at least another decade. [21:24.820 --> 21:29.720] It's a real devastating blow to whistleblowers and those who do the work of protecting whistleblowers. [21:29.840 --> 21:31.840] I mean, you really have to ask, why did he do what he did? [21:32.040 --> 21:34.320] He wanted to hold power to account. [21:34.540 --> 21:36.960] He wanted the information to be out there. [21:37.180 --> 21:38.180] He was young. [21:38.580 --> 21:41.540] He maybe was a little bit misguided as well. [21:41.640 --> 21:44.020] Maybe he wanted to impress his friends or feel significant. [21:44.020 --> 21:53.120] He was definitely idealistic, but he wanted to, and he did start a tremendous and significant dialogue about the wars we were and we are fighting. [21:53.340 --> 21:58.320] And I think whatever the motives are, he should be looked at as a martyr to the public's right to know. [21:58.320 --> 22:04.700] And of course, as Kyle mentioned, the motives of those punishing him are fairly obvious. [22:04.880 --> 22:17.960] This isn't, you know, this sentence isn't about punishing Bradley Manning, the person, about rehabilitating him, about doing anything but making a huge example of him, showing everyone else, look what we're going to do to you if you try and do what he did. [22:18.580 --> 22:25.060] And it may not, it may ought not to be, and it may indeed be very, very sad. [22:25.280 --> 22:44.900] But, and given that, maybe this is, maybe this, what we're talking about in the news and how huge this has become, maybe the work of this story has been done, but it is going to be routed around, people will do this work elsewhere if need be, until the U.S. [22:45.000 --> 22:54.600] public and leadership basically realizes that this is where journalism and oversight, government oversight is going to go. [22:54.880 --> 23:19.640] There's incredible technologies and people, yeah, they'll maybe let one or two things go by, but it's not, you can't create a pattern of this with technology and being used in this way to basically oppress people around the world for like greed and capital and basically lie to people who pay for it. [23:19.800 --> 23:24.520] And as you said, Snowden had what happened to Manning to learn from when he did his leaking. [23:24.760 --> 23:28.960] What's the next person going to have learned from all of this and the next after that? [23:29.140 --> 23:39.040] So I think there are always going to be more whistleblowers and they're just going to get smarter as those punishing them flail more insanely. [23:39.780 --> 23:45.320] I think this might be a good lead in for the next story because we have so many things to talk about this week. [23:45.900 --> 23:54.400] And that is, of course, what happened to the journalist who has been covering the Edward Snowden story, the NSA leaks. [23:55.140 --> 24:05.120] His partner, David Miranda, was detained at London's Heathrow Airport after attempting to fly home to Brazil from Germany. [24:05.760 --> 24:09.680] And this really has infuriated so many people. [24:09.840 --> 24:12.120] I've been watching the media over here in the UK. [24:12.420 --> 24:15.180] It's the number one story everywhere. [24:15.500 --> 24:30.900] And people are simply outraged that this kind of intimidation tactic against somebody who wasn't even a part of the story is being used as a way to try and rein this in. [24:31.140 --> 24:33.840] It's one of the couple of things that have happened this week. [24:33.880 --> 24:55.880] The other being the very bizarre story that we heard about from one of the editors of The Guardian, the newspaper that Glenn Greenwald is reporting for, who says that those authorities threatened that newspaper with legal action if it failed to destroy a return material related to its work with Edward Snowden, [24:56.060 --> 25:05.620] and then actually sent people to the office to ensure that the hard drives were physically destroyed. [25:05.620 --> 25:07.160] And I'm not kidding, either. [25:07.320 --> 25:10.280] Physically destroyed, torn into pieces. [25:11.020 --> 25:15.860] And clearly, these people have no idea as to how digital technology works. [25:16.020 --> 25:20.960] Because yeah, you know, you can destroy one hard drive, but there are other copies all over the place. [25:21.140 --> 25:30.000] And that absolutely accomplishes nothing except to show how thick-headed you are and what intimidation tactics you're willing to use. [25:30.000 --> 25:45.560] And I think these two things that were reported this week have done more to convince people that the NSA and the people that support all the secrecy and spying that they have been up to, these are the bad guys. [25:45.820 --> 25:52.760] They have convinced more people of this by their own actions than anything that Edward Snowden or anyone else could say. [25:53.140 --> 26:03.160] And sometimes you really just have to let people speak who they are, speak their minds, and prove that they're on the wrong side of history. [26:03.320 --> 26:11.600] I want to talk a little bit about the second thing you mentioned, the destruction of the hard drive, which is probably the less evil of the stories, but the more bizarre. [26:12.300 --> 26:23.460] This happened actually last week, but the Guardian didn't mention it until they were sort of angered further by what happened to Glenn Greenwald's partner. [26:24.640 --> 26:44.500] And so they mentioned this as sort of the bottom of a story about Miranda, and then they later gave some more details, which is that a senior civil servant, a senior officer came to the Guardian and said, you must destroy the hard drives on which this data is maintained. [26:44.640 --> 26:46.760] And as you said, Emmanuel, this does nothing. [26:46.900 --> 26:47.880] There could be another hard drive. [26:48.000 --> 26:52.880] The Guardian has sort of said, all right, we just won't edit this story in the UK anymore. [26:52.880 --> 26:54.920] We'll edit it in London. [26:55.580 --> 26:57.740] Sorry, we'll edit it in New York and Brazil. [26:58.020 --> 26:58.420] But... [26:58.420 --> 27:01.340] And I think they even told them that they had, that there were other copies. [27:01.680 --> 27:08.240] Yeah, Alan Russ Bridger, who is the editor of The Guardian, explained to British authorities that there were other copies in America and Brazil, so they wouldn't be achieving anything. [27:08.660 --> 27:15.420] But once it was obvious that they would be going to law, he preferred to destroy their copy rather than hand it back to them or allow the courts to freeze their reporting. [27:15.820 --> 27:23.920] And so what's bizarre, even in the follow-up that The Guardian did about this, the people involved are identified only as senior officials. [27:24.180 --> 27:34.920] And the way journalism works, in my understanding, my limited understanding, is that you give anonymity to sources when failure to do so would result in bad news for them. [27:35.360 --> 27:43.560] It's my opinion that if you are threatening journalists and demanding that they destroy their hard drives, you lose the right to anonymity. [27:43.680 --> 27:52.020] But The Guardian, apparently, and they do know more about journalism than I do, so whatever, they are giving this guy anonymity. [27:52.140 --> 28:02.420] But The Independent is reporting that this is the cabinet secretary, which is literally the most senior civil servant in the British government. [28:02.420 --> 28:07.000] This is not some like mid-level GCHQ person or whatever. [28:07.020 --> 28:13.740] This is a very powerful position who's going around threatening journalists and demanding that they destroy hard drives. [28:13.940 --> 28:15.840] And it's just insane. [28:16.560 --> 28:24.920] It really makes one wonder, like, fortunately for The Guardian, they have the ability to do journalism in other countries so they can still publish. [28:25.060 --> 28:31.280] But for a purely British paper, they would be screwed working under these circumstances. [28:32.000 --> 28:34.000] Mike, do we have a name of that cabinet secretary? [28:35.800 --> 28:38.380] Yes, his name is Sir Jeremy Heywood. [28:38.500 --> 28:40.880] You know he's important because he's got Sir in front of it. [28:42.460 --> 28:49.340] Mike, wasn't there actually two top officials from Cameron's staff? [28:49.640 --> 28:50.000] Yes, indeed. [28:50.180 --> 28:52.920] There were two senior British officials at The Guardian's offices. [28:53.040 --> 28:53.780] The other was a woman. [28:53.920 --> 28:58.060] I don't recall her name, but it's being reported in other media outlets. [28:58.060 --> 29:03.780] The independent article that I'm looking at does not report the other person's name, but maybe it's somewhere else. [29:04.300 --> 29:08.500] You know, does anyone know if the Prime Minister's question time is in session right now? [29:10.340 --> 29:18.500] I would love to see David Cameron field questions from really, really angry members of the House of Commons about this. [29:18.560 --> 29:20.400] I mean, I don't think that they're in session. [29:20.980 --> 29:25.560] I think that they probably come back to session in a couple of weeks, and this will all have probably blown over. [29:26.080 --> 29:31.480] But it would have been a really, really interesting next Wednesday to listen to him. [29:31.600 --> 29:34.460] It would be amusing, but do you think he's going to give any answers? [29:34.580 --> 29:35.580] Oh, he never gives any answers. [29:35.620 --> 29:36.520] That's the whole point, right? [29:36.580 --> 29:37.940] Just watch how slick he is. [29:38.860 --> 29:42.160] But it's really, really insane. [29:42.500 --> 29:52.500] And I do think that, at least in one of the stories I read about it, one of these shadowy figures had actually said that he was acting on orders of the Prime Ministers. [29:52.500 --> 29:55.920] I mean, the point I want to make, though, is that these are not shadowy figures. [29:56.160 --> 29:57.120] Well, they shouldn't be. [29:58.520 --> 30:02.260] Assuming the article is reported correctly, this is a very senior, very public position. [30:03.060 --> 30:07.480] It's not, as I said, some shadowy person who appeared from the Secret Service. [30:07.520 --> 30:16.700] You know, I've got a question for Bernie, and I hate to put you on the spot like this, but one of the articles I read said that they used something called angle pulverizers? [30:16.700 --> 30:18.400] Angle grinders. [30:18.440 --> 30:19.160] Angle grinders. [30:19.440 --> 30:36.420] Well, actually, there were two top officials from Cameron's staff, and there were also two mid-level, or two technicians from GCHQ, which is the UK's equivalent to the National Security Agency, and who have a strong agreement called the UK-USA Alliance. [30:36.420 --> 30:45.820] And they were present there to supervise the physical destruction of these hard drives, and it looked like a MacBook as well. [30:45.900 --> 30:47.760] There were some pictures that Guardian posted online. [30:48.040 --> 30:49.440] I mean, the whole situation was ludicrous. [30:49.580 --> 30:56.260] I mean, they're watching these be destroyed, knowing that the files exist in London and in Brazil. [30:56.260 --> 30:59.100] I'm sorry, in other countries. [30:59.460 --> 30:59.600] Mm-hmm. [30:59.680 --> 31:03.060] And they must have just been... [31:03.060 --> 31:04.360] I mean, clearly they know. [31:04.560 --> 31:13.680] In fact, the editor of the Guardian said that everyone was well aware of the fact that this was symbolic. [31:14.440 --> 31:19.400] So if it's symbolic, then it is clearly intimidation, is it not? [31:19.400 --> 31:20.100] Right. [31:20.300 --> 31:27.720] And that was the reasoning that the editor gave for destroying these hard drives, was because the alternative would have been to hand them over to the government. [31:28.000 --> 31:32.740] So not wanting the government to know what's on the hard drives, you know, because why should they? [31:33.680 --> 31:40.100] He instead had to go through this basically dog-and-pony show of just destroying them in front of them. [31:40.300 --> 31:43.980] They used these, as Alex pointed, they used angle grinders. [31:43.980 --> 31:48.240] It's a tool with, like, a rotating wheel of abrasive material. [31:48.240 --> 31:50.700] And you can, like, literally grind metal with it. [31:50.760 --> 31:51.920] So they were the grinding of metal. [31:52.060 --> 31:57.440] You can see from the pictures the Guardian posted that there are these, like, holes in the circuit board that they ground through. [31:57.740 --> 32:03.140] And it's just literally stupid, because these files exist elsewhere in the world. [32:04.620 --> 32:07.160] That sounds really sloppy for destroying hard drives. [32:07.320 --> 32:08.920] They don't have any kind of, like, drive shredder. [32:08.980 --> 32:10.220] Yeah, I would have thought they would have brought... [32:10.220 --> 32:14.920] GCHQ would have brought one of these drive shredders that just, like, pulverizes the drive into little tiny bits of metal. [32:15.080 --> 32:15.960] But they didn't bring that. [32:16.480 --> 32:20.220] And it sounds sloppy if they're, like, gouging holes into, like, circuit boards. [32:20.380 --> 32:29.600] I mean, if I was going to do it with an angle grinder, I would get a nice good angle on it, maybe a nice wire wheel brush, and just do the whole surface, both sides, every stack. [32:29.760 --> 32:31.780] I don't think drives have multiple stacks anymore. [32:31.780 --> 32:33.480] So backing off from the... [32:33.480 --> 32:34.220] Just do the whole surface. [32:34.280 --> 32:37.400] Get a nice, like, buff swirl going around all the way. [32:38.260 --> 32:39.060] But anyway... [32:39.060 --> 32:41.900] All right, Bob Vila, but I think... [32:42.460 --> 32:44.600] I'm backing off from this old house stuff for the moment. [32:44.880 --> 32:50.200] It's worth looking at the other aspect to this whole thing, which was the whole David Miranda situation. [32:50.200 --> 32:53.240] We mentioned it briefly in passing, but I think it's worth going a bit more into. [32:54.300 --> 32:56.120] As was mentioned, Miranda was... [32:56.120 --> 33:00.400] who lives with the reporter Glenn Greenwald from the UK Guardian, was stopped at 8 a.m. [33:00.620 --> 33:02.040] in Heathrow Airport from... [33:02.040 --> 33:12.020] returning from a trip to Berlin, and questioned under Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000, which applies only at airports, ports, and border areas, allowing officers to stop, search, question, and detain individuals. [33:12.020 --> 33:23.000] And he was held there for nine hours, which is the absolute maximum the law there allows before officers must either formally arrest you or let you go, before he was released without charge. [33:23.000 --> 33:28.140] But the Guardian reported that his electronic possessions were all confiscated. [33:28.240 --> 33:33.560] That's his mobile phone, his laptop, his camera, his memory sticks, DVDs, and his video game consoles. [33:34.580 --> 33:35.120] So... [33:35.120 --> 33:41.580] Oh, Rob, I heard David being interviewed on BBC last night in his own words. [33:41.580 --> 33:52.680] And he said he felt extremely intimidated and naked because he was threatened with jail if he did not answer all the questions that he was being interrogated with. [33:52.680 --> 34:06.000] Some of those questions were, what is the password to your cell phone, the password to your laptop, and he felt compelled to provide that information to the British officials that were interrogating him because he didn't want to go to jail. [34:06.000 --> 34:06.780] He was afraid. [34:07.800 --> 34:09.760] In the U.S., we have... [34:11.000 --> 34:12.020] It's kind of ironic. [34:12.300 --> 34:13.660] There are things called Miranda rights. [34:13.920 --> 34:15.020] We have the United States. [34:15.040 --> 34:16.340] You have the right to remain silent. [34:16.580 --> 34:18.040] They don't have that in the United Kingdom. [34:18.040 --> 34:21.760] So, he literally had to give up his passwords. [34:22.080 --> 34:22.720] That's Bernie. [34:22.880 --> 34:27.260] You have, in the U.K., I don't know the details, but you have some rights to silence. [34:27.260 --> 34:29.060] They're not quite the same as in the United States. [34:29.240 --> 34:35.040] But under this special terrorism legislation, you don't have those rights. [34:35.040 --> 34:38.360] So, it's an extra level of insanity. [34:38.360 --> 34:40.340] This might sound... [34:40.340 --> 34:44.060] I'm going to sound a little presumptuous here, but I, again, want to step back. [34:44.140 --> 34:48.740] And what we're seeing a lot of is basically people who don't get it. [34:48.820 --> 34:50.820] They don't get that this is not okay. [34:51.440 --> 34:56.060] They're like machinations of these organizations that basically are going to do these things. [34:56.060 --> 34:57.360] They're getting orders from somewhere. [34:57.980 --> 34:59.920] Somebody approves and thinks this is a great idea. [35:00.040 --> 35:01.060] We'll go and check this. [35:01.120 --> 35:02.260] It'll be real preemptive. [35:02.360 --> 35:07.360] But the point is, it is not going to be ignored. [35:07.360 --> 35:08.560] It's not being missed. [35:09.060 --> 35:17.740] And they may think they have support from the government, but what's going on, really, they don't understand the power of media to shape perception. [35:18.000 --> 35:26.220] So maybe the U.S., maybe the leadership there doesn't quite get it yet, and they're not being prevented from taking these steps. [35:26.220 --> 35:35.940] But I think that what the government and the people that are actually doing these kinds of things are forgetting is that the public opinion of the world matters. [35:35.940 --> 35:41.580] And that pressure is going to be put onto the United States government and United States citizens. [35:41.980 --> 35:43.040] People are going to wake up. [35:43.180 --> 35:43.860] They're going to realize this. [35:44.000 --> 35:45.800] Because it's being reported around the world. [35:45.980 --> 35:56.140] You can't just do this to, by the way, people that are journalists and expect that it's not going to be in the media and thus in public consciousness. [35:56.400 --> 35:56.760] Forget. [35:56.940 --> 35:57.160] Fine. [35:57.380 --> 35:58.380] Americans aren't listening. [35:58.540 --> 35:58.760] Fine. [35:58.840 --> 36:01.420] They can spend plenty of time with their heads in the sand. [36:01.420 --> 36:06.900] I know some people come up every now and then for air, but it will not stand. [36:06.900 --> 36:09.220] And that will eventually get to leadership. [36:09.480 --> 36:12.600] Maybe it's on delay, but these people in power don't have it. [36:12.600 --> 36:15.140] So how did Glenn Greenwald react to this? [36:15.320 --> 36:18.140] Didn't he say he was going to be starry? [36:18.340 --> 36:18.800] Wasn't he? [36:18.900 --> 36:24.460] He obviously got intimidated and went underground and decided never to write anything criticizing the government again. [36:24.520 --> 36:24.820] Oh, wait. [36:24.920 --> 36:25.080] No. [36:25.300 --> 36:25.700] No. [36:26.180 --> 36:27.340] Yeah, that's not what happened. [36:27.540 --> 36:27.820] Yeah, no. [36:27.920 --> 36:41.560] Anyone who knows anything about Glenn Greenwald's work, and this is the most bizarre thing to me about this whole situation with Miranda, is that the man has written all these crusading stories, all these stories about the leaks, about Snowden, about everything involved, [36:42.320 --> 36:45.880] pointing out all this corruption, all these lies that have been going on. [36:46.260 --> 36:53.340] And someone somewhere seems to have thought that he would be cowed by somebody roughing up his domestic partner a bit. [36:53.340 --> 37:11.840] And now you have a bit of a sense as to what true journalists have to face when dealing with telling the truth in any part of the world, including the United States, the intimidation tactics, the way that they're expected to bow down to the powers that be, [37:12.120 --> 37:16.100] and the courageous people like Glenn Greenwald who refuse to do that. [37:16.180 --> 37:18.940] And that's why journalists really need to be supported. [37:18.940 --> 37:21.580] They're true journalists, the ones that are few and far between. [37:21.820 --> 37:28.660] And I hope that thousands more sprout up as a result of this, as inspiration from this kind of crap that people have to deal with. [37:28.840 --> 37:30.260] So what did Glenn say he was going to do? [37:30.920 --> 37:32.760] He's going to report more than ever. [37:33.020 --> 37:33.360] Yes. [37:33.380 --> 37:36.700] And he's going to have a special focus on the U.K. [37:37.320 --> 37:41.200] from the Edward Snowden documents that are in his possession. [37:41.880 --> 37:44.260] And I think that's an appropriate response. [37:44.480 --> 38:03.760] Speaking of those Edward Snowden documents, by the way, one thing that was learned in the last week, and this comes from the Edward Snowden documents, but it has to do with something that the NSA themselves said, that they broke privacy rules and overstepped their legal authority thousands of times in the past two years, [38:03.880 --> 38:04.840] thousands of times. [38:04.840 --> 38:16.520] And this comes from some of the leaked documents, and it was based on internal NSA studies, internal audit that was dated May 2012. [38:16.520 --> 38:25.080] They counted 2,776 incidents of unauthorized data collection within the NSA over the previous 12 months. [38:25.080 --> 38:32.520] This is a fact that we would never have known were it not for Edward Snowden's leaks and Glenn Greenwald's reporting. [38:32.940 --> 38:36.140] And this is something that we are better off knowing about. [38:36.140 --> 38:44.020] Now maybe we can come to some intelligent conclusions as to where the abuses of our privacy are coming from. [38:44.020 --> 38:53.180] And this internal NSA report was not released to members of Congress who were supposed to be overseeing the NSA's operations and practices. [38:53.580 --> 38:54.720] This is withheld. [38:55.040 --> 39:02.700] In fact, wasn't there even something in the report advising how some of this stuff should be concealed from Congress? [39:04.120 --> 39:10.620] I mean, it's the ongoing way that these people operate is to reveal as little as possible. [39:11.500 --> 39:15.560] It is not just that this document would not have come out. [39:15.680 --> 39:18.460] It's after the government knew. [39:19.300 --> 39:25.260] You know, the government may not know exactly which documents Glenn Greenwald has, but they probably have a pretty good idea. [39:25.440 --> 39:30.140] And they probably could have guessed he has this document if they'd really spent a few minutes to think about it. [39:31.160 --> 39:36.300] But they still, in the intervening weeks and months, they still lied. [39:36.480 --> 39:39.960] They still said, oh, no, no, no, no, we hardly ever violate anyone's privacy. [39:40.660 --> 39:44.880] They just think that our credulity must be infinite. [39:44.880 --> 39:47.240] And for some of us in America, it is. [39:47.340 --> 39:51.760] But for most of us, I think we're learning that the government cannot be trusted here. [39:52.120 --> 39:57.460] The technical systems that are in place, there's this this case that's really been talked about the most. [39:57.460 --> 40:08.500] One of the biggest privacy invasion or one of them, they wanted to wiretap Egypt, which is, you know, pretty evil because there's lots of nice people in Egypt and maybe only a few not so nice people. [40:09.040 --> 40:12.600] And Egypt, as listeners may know, has country code two zero. [40:13.100 --> 40:15.440] But someone just mishit a key. [40:15.720 --> 40:20.340] So they type two zero two, which is the area code for Washington, D.C. [40:20.340 --> 40:36.580] And so whatever system the government, the NSA has, doesn't distinguish between country codes and area codes, obviously has no technical problem wiretapping all of Washington, where there's a lot of nice people, but maybe a slightly lower percentage. [40:36.780 --> 40:38.380] There's all these American politicians there. [40:40.080 --> 40:42.840] And so they were wiretapping all of Washington, D.C. [40:42.980 --> 40:43.860] by accident. [40:43.860 --> 40:48.220] This is not privacy protections for Americans that we've been promised. [40:48.400 --> 40:53.100] It is certainly not the privacy protections for the entire world that I think the entire world deserves. [40:53.320 --> 40:54.420] It's just insane. [40:54.860 --> 40:59.780] You know, what's insane is the amount of stories that we're expected to cover within one hour. [41:00.100 --> 41:03.640] NSA really has to slow it down a little bit because there's just too much. [41:03.740 --> 41:04.720] We can't cover it all. [41:05.680 --> 41:08.400] Now, there's something concerning Lava Bit. [41:08.520 --> 41:11.480] Would someone like to explain what Lava Bit is or was? [41:11.480 --> 41:18.720] Lava Bit was an email provider that claimed to have your privacy at heart. [41:18.860 --> 41:22.940] And its most famous user was Edward Snowden until recently. [41:23.540 --> 41:23.720] Yeah. [41:23.920 --> 41:27.240] And then they shut down because why? [41:27.900 --> 41:28.400] They... [41:28.400 --> 41:29.600] Well, they won't say. [41:29.800 --> 41:30.580] They can't say. [41:30.820 --> 41:34.160] I believe they would very much love to say, but they can't say exactly. [41:34.400 --> 41:38.820] But they were made to do something by the government, the U.S. [41:38.940 --> 41:40.960] government, that they don't want to do. [41:40.960 --> 41:45.860] And the head of the company, whose name I don't recall... [41:45.860 --> 41:46.840] Radar Levinson. [41:47.040 --> 41:47.320] Yes. [41:47.840 --> 41:51.660] Said, I would rather shut down my company, which I have worked on. [41:51.800 --> 41:57.160] Apparently, he's worked on for many years, than deal with this order from the U.S. [41:57.280 --> 41:57.520] government. [41:57.520 --> 42:02.220] So there's some speculation that this is some kind of national security letter. [42:02.420 --> 42:16.720] There's some speculation that it is in order to maybe spy on users' passwords, so that data that the Lava Bit does not technically have access to, they will be able to get and pass on to our friends in the government. [42:17.960 --> 42:24.300] I believe he also said something about if you knew what was the security of email or something. [42:24.500 --> 42:25.140] Is that correct? [42:25.620 --> 42:29.200] I don't have the quote, but if you know what I know about email, you wouldn't use it or something. [42:29.220 --> 42:30.960] I think it was actually if you knew what the U.S. [42:31.080 --> 42:32.760] government was doing, you wouldn't use email. [42:32.760 --> 42:45.220] And that story is what prompted Phil Zimmerman and his colleagues at Silent Circle to shut down the Silent Mail product service that they offered, which we had Phil on the show last week. [42:45.680 --> 42:49.080] And that was a preemptive strike against them receiving any legal order. [42:49.580 --> 42:58.600] Had they received a legal order first and shut down the company, then they could have been found in contempt of court or found guilty of destroying evidence, that sort of thing. [42:58.600 --> 43:02.540] So they got the jump on the U.S., Phil Zimmerman and his pals. [43:03.320 --> 43:07.020] If I'm understanding correctly, the U.S. [43:07.400 --> 43:18.180] government's response to Lavabit shutting down is to threaten the owner of Lavabit for contempt of court for shutting down his business. [43:18.320 --> 43:19.680] Am I interpreting that correctly? [43:19.860 --> 43:20.960] Yeah, that's right. [43:20.960 --> 43:28.300] I mean, and you can imply from that that they had an order for some kind of monitoring, some kind of surveillance. [43:28.640 --> 43:32.620] So if he shuts down his servers, that frustrates the government's ability to do that. [43:32.760 --> 43:36.740] So we can infer a little bit from that, but we're not entirely sure. [43:36.920 --> 43:49.760] I think that Mr. Levinson has also said that he is embattled in some kind of proceeding in the Fourth Circuit in Virginia, meaning that he's appealing this, and he can't talk about the appeal. [43:49.900 --> 43:51.360] I really, really wish he could. [43:51.360 --> 43:56.680] It's probably some very, very interesting stuff going on there, some really interesting legal arguments. [43:56.820 --> 43:58.960] I hope one day that it comes out. [43:59.660 --> 44:08.020] But it's very, very interesting here because Lavabit is somebody who actually has standing to contest this program right now. [44:08.700 --> 44:10.780] And we don't know what their legal arguments are. [44:10.860 --> 44:12.180] We don't know what the government has said to them. [44:12.180 --> 44:21.400] It would be incredibly interesting, and I think it's incredibly newsworthy if we actually didn't know what was going on. [44:21.560 --> 44:26.980] A lot of people are supporting Lavabit's move, Ladar Levinson's spine, and standing up to the U.S. [44:27.060 --> 44:29.940] government by sending a financial support to help pay his legal fees. [44:29.940 --> 44:41.980] And at lavabit.com, you can find out how you can financially support what will surely be significant legal expenses on his part to defend himself for protecting his customers' privacy. [44:42.220 --> 44:42.620] Right. [44:42.800 --> 44:49.600] And the chilling effect from this leads into yet another story, where the legal site Grocklaw shut down rather than face the NSA. [44:50.080 --> 44:52.760] And, you know, this seems to be... [44:52.760 --> 44:56.800] Now, Grocklaw, if you're not familiar with Grocklaw, what type of site is it? [44:57.300 --> 45:04.680] It's a blog discussion forum about the intersection of law and technology. [45:04.920 --> 45:06.580] Yeah, that's how people like to phrase it. [45:06.680 --> 45:08.720] You know, you kind of specialize in technology issues. [45:08.900 --> 45:09.720] It was pretty good. [45:09.820 --> 45:10.960] It won numerous awards. [45:11.700 --> 45:16.900] I think it was a paralegal woman, Pamela Jones, who ran this very, very... [45:16.900 --> 45:18.260] in a very, very dedicated manner. [45:18.460 --> 45:23.420] I have to say, though, like, Grocklaw has been a wonderful resource over the years. [45:23.420 --> 45:28.840] I understand if she doesn't want to do it anymore, but, like, I don't buy the NSA connection here. [45:29.220 --> 45:31.020] I find it very tenuous, too. [45:31.100 --> 45:33.680] I can't really figure it out. [45:33.680 --> 45:35.000] I mean, I see... [45:35.540 --> 45:37.260] I see where she's going with it. [45:37.360 --> 45:41.320] I mean, she claims that, you know, there's this overarching surveillance of non-U.S. [45:41.500 --> 45:54.500] communications taking place, and she felt like the communications of her international audience weren't safe, and that her blog or her analyses somehow depended on email, and therefore she decided to terminate the website. [45:54.500 --> 46:02.980] Yeah, that's the central point of this whole thing on her post, was that Grocklaw couldn't operate without email, and email is no longer safe if it ever was. [46:04.220 --> 46:13.440] So she chose, rather than become the next domino in this series, to just shut her own site down and close it to further comments. [46:13.560 --> 46:14.380] It's a chilling effect. [46:14.680 --> 46:15.140] It is. [46:15.500 --> 46:23.700] You know, whatever her reasons were, clearly they were in some way triggered by all the stuff going on with NSA surveillance and the U.S. [46:23.820 --> 46:32.260] government harassing companies like Lovabit and others. [46:32.260 --> 46:41.780] So it's, you know, I see a connection, it may be an indirect connection, but clearly there was some motivation there connected to everything that's going on. [46:42.000 --> 46:43.460] Yeah, Bernie, I agree with you. [46:43.620 --> 46:57.160] Like, if, you know, if you don't see an immediate connection to some of the stuff from, like, PRISM and, like, PRISM and the recent, like, developments with NSA wiretapping and all that, like, you could at least look at it as, like, solidarity or, like, [46:57.220 --> 47:00.920] form of online protests, which hopefully or likely we'll see more of. [47:01.720 --> 47:02.160] Yeah. [47:02.420 --> 47:11.200] And the thing that's dangerous here, though, and I have to agree with Mike, is I think that, you know, she may have chilled herself preemptively here. [47:11.200 --> 47:13.260] And I think that's dangerous as well. [47:13.340 --> 47:15.020] I mean, this is the time when we need this dialogue. [47:15.020 --> 47:19.480] We need to talk about the, quote, intersection of law and technology more than we ever did. [47:20.220 --> 47:21.400] It's, I think it's terrible. [47:21.540 --> 47:23.440] We lost a good resource for doing that. [47:23.440 --> 47:28.920] But this also, this goes back to what we've been talking about for, it's a very interesting issue. [47:29.060 --> 47:30.840] We've been talking about it for a couple of weeks now. [47:30.920 --> 47:33.860] And it's articulating the harm that surveillance inflicts. [47:33.960 --> 47:40.720] You know, and as we've discussed, you know, it's really, really difficult to contest general surveillance in a legal proceeding because of a concept called standing. [47:40.720 --> 47:54.900] And this doctrine basically says that you only have a right to be in court if you are harmed, if you've been harmed, or if you have something to lose, or if there's some kind of reasonable relationship between a law in question and harm to you or some others. [47:55.020 --> 47:58.500] And that's when this notion of chilling effects in the First Amendment comes into play. [47:58.500 --> 48:04.780] So you have all of a sudden, Grok Law, Lavabit, and Silent Circle all closing on account of the surveillance programs revealed by Snowden. [48:04.940 --> 48:08.000] This looks like a perfect example of chilling effects. [48:08.000 --> 48:14.420] So our rights to association here are limited, and our outlets for discourse, they're being shuttered. [48:14.580 --> 48:18.460] In this sense, it's primarily the First Amendment which is being offended. [48:18.600 --> 48:23.940] This is our right to freely associate with others, as opposed to our right to privacy, which is protected by the Fourth Amendment. [48:24.220 --> 48:26.880] So, you know, or at least a good argument can be made to the effect. [48:27.060 --> 48:29.880] But this probably still isn't even enough. [48:30.140 --> 48:34.380] Under case law that came out last year from the Supreme Court in a case called Clapper v. [48:34.460 --> 48:46.360] Amnesty, the court found that without proof of particularized targeting, this hypothetical future harm was insufficient to grant Article III standing to bring a suit in federal court. [48:46.540 --> 48:52.580] And this is what the ACLU is grappling with right now with their case with the Verizon collection from Verizon business users. [48:52.580 --> 48:54.240] And this Clapper v. [48:54.300 --> 48:59.420] Amnesty case, interestingly enough, came from the Second Circuit where they found the other way. [48:59.860 --> 49:11.440] Basically, they said that journalists and lawyers and aid workers with overseas clients who might be subject to surveillance, that could give rise to a legally cognizable privacy claim and they could get into court. [49:11.440 --> 49:13.300] But here we're not making a privacy claim. [49:13.400 --> 49:14.280] We have a First Amendment claim. [49:14.460 --> 49:16.100] It's my guess it still wouldn't be enough. [49:16.240 --> 49:20.720] A court would probably still say that you weren't particularly targeted, that you weren't harmed. [49:20.780 --> 49:23.980] Any harm you suffered was as a result of one of your favorite websites. [49:24.160 --> 49:31.580] Grok Law being voluntarily shut down is harm that can't reasonably be attributed to the government in anything but a tenuous matter. [49:31.580 --> 49:35.420] I think we'd probably see the same result even if the plaintiff was Grok Law. [49:35.540 --> 49:38.540] But like I said, with Lavabit, they were directly targeted. [49:38.720 --> 49:45.000] They had an order directing them to do something that was contrary to what they told their customers would do. [49:45.080 --> 49:49.140] In a sense, it was interfering with their contracts, which is unconstitutional if the states do it. [49:49.600 --> 49:55.980] There's no federal prohibition from impairing contracts, but you could rope the 14th Amendment into trying to do that. [49:55.980 --> 50:00.000] But I think Lavabit has a really, really great shot at contesting this. [50:00.140 --> 50:04.940] As a plaintiff, they seem like they may be the only guys withstanding right now. [50:05.080 --> 50:06.500] Yeah, but Alex, he's not even... [50:07.820 --> 50:14.780] Dar Levinson, the owner of Lavabit, he's not even legally allowed to talk to his lawyer about this. [50:14.780 --> 50:18.660] So how can he mount a defense in court if he can't even talk to his lawyer about it? [50:18.740 --> 50:20.220] I think he's got to be able to talk to counsel. [50:20.220 --> 50:20.720] No, he's not. [50:20.820 --> 50:21.440] That's insane. [50:21.440 --> 50:32.880] He said he's legally prohibited from discussing this with his lawyer, because whatever national security letter or court order he got warned him he can't talk to anybody about it. [50:33.120 --> 50:35.880] That's really insane if that... [50:35.880 --> 50:37.600] Yeah, but that's what the government wants. [50:38.000 --> 50:40.280] That's... I would love to see that. [50:40.380 --> 50:50.460] I mean, obviously, he's got to be able to talk to his lawyer in some sense and be skirting around the issues and not discuss the specifics of it, I guess, because maybe that information is technically classified. [50:51.860 --> 50:53.540] It's very, very interesting, but it does... [50:53.540 --> 50:59.900] He did mention that he was fighting something in the Fourth Circuit, and even if he's doing it pro se, without a lawyer, he seems like a smart enough guy. [51:00.000 --> 51:03.460] Let's hope he can make some well-thought-out arguments. [51:03.460 --> 51:20.520] People may recall Nick Merrill from Calix, who was one of the first people and possibly one of the first people to fight a national security letter, and in particular, one of the first people to do so publicly after much, much argument, was also originally told he couldn't talk to his lawyer, [51:20.740 --> 51:30.460] and sort of did talk to his lawyer, which was the ACLU, and was able to fight in court with their support. [51:30.460 --> 51:35.420] So I'm sure there must be a way for Lavabit to do so as well. [51:35.440 --> 51:47.560] Yeah, I think maybe what the provision is, and it could be, and I think with NSLs and national security letters, I think if you were going to consult with a lawyer, you have to inform the government that you're talking to a lawyer, which is totally insane as well. [51:47.560 --> 51:49.560] When you think about it, I mean... [51:49.560 --> 51:56.120] Yeah, I don't want to sound like I'm defending the process here, because it's obviously totally insane. [51:56.720 --> 52:01.580] But we're in insane worlds, so we sort of have to look for openings where we can. [52:02.260 --> 52:12.060] And I think probably if he has enough money to hire a lawyer and fight this for years after already shutting down his company, well then the good news is he might be allowed to do so. [52:12.880 --> 52:13.360] Yeah. [52:13.780 --> 52:20.600] And the standing issue is a really, really big problem when it comes to contesting surveillance, because it's very hard to quantify that harm. [52:20.720 --> 52:31.240] We keep going back to it, and I would love for listeners to write into us at OTH at 2600.com to give us their thoughts about what is that harm that has suffered from surveillance. [52:31.240 --> 52:33.040] How do we quantify it? [52:33.120 --> 52:34.760] How do we talk about it intelligently? [52:34.920 --> 52:36.020] Where does it hurt us? [52:37.200 --> 52:42.140] It all really bears looking at, and we're going to be looking very, very closely at it over the next weeks. [52:42.240 --> 52:42.360] Mike? [52:42.460 --> 52:45.160] We have only a few minutes left, so I just want to mention this very briefly. [52:45.360 --> 53:01.940] There was a paper, an academic study that was done very recently, quantifying or at least qualitatively describing the harm that comes from a very different sort of surveillance, which is Google reading your email to target you advertisements and sell you things. [53:02.620 --> 53:07.240] And the researchers there were able to quantify some of the harm. [53:07.440 --> 53:10.560] It's an interesting article. [53:10.560 --> 53:12.220] There was an article about it in the Atlantic. [53:12.220 --> 53:14.320] You should look it up if you want to know more about it. [53:14.380 --> 53:16.600] I wish we had the time to really go into it in depth. [53:17.000 --> 53:20.560] What did they... can you give us the 10-second version of what they said the harm was? [53:21.000 --> 53:22.620] You will buy things you don't need. [53:22.620 --> 53:23.220] Yeah. [53:23.440 --> 53:33.620] Well, that is part of the harm because if you were being surveilled and you... let's say you buy a subscription to LavaBit or the equivalent of it, then you're spending money that you wouldn't have otherwise had to spend. [53:34.020 --> 53:34.380] Yeah. [53:34.540 --> 53:40.820] And that is some kind of harm, but you still don't get around the fact that you don't know that you were particularly targeted. [53:41.020 --> 53:42.180] That's the American way, though. [53:43.120 --> 53:43.320] Yeah. [53:43.500 --> 53:48.480] Another story we don't have a lot of time to talk about, but I'm going to touch on it really quick. [53:48.480 --> 53:54.800] Changing your IP address to access a public website has been ruled a violation of US law under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. [53:54.800 --> 53:59.560] There was a case between Craigslist and a company called 3TAPS. [53:59.720 --> 54:01.660] That's a numeral three T-A-P-S. [54:01.960 --> 54:23.300] And a judge ruled Friday in US District Court in Northern California that when 3TAPS was IP banned from using the Craigslist site, and changing their IP address to get around to that was a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act because they basically circumvented a technical measure to access the site. [54:23.560 --> 54:27.480] So there is now, I think, what's the case law on this mean now? [54:27.880 --> 54:30.140] Well, it's kind of tricky. [54:30.140 --> 54:33.740] I think there's a very, very good chance that this case is going to be overturned. [54:33.860 --> 54:36.820] It deals with what I imagine is 18 U.S.C. [54:36.980 --> 54:46.420] Section 1030A4, which is the without authorization language from the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which is not defined. [54:46.620 --> 54:48.560] And courts and cases are all over the place. [54:48.640 --> 54:53.720] And interpreting this broadly or narrowly, I even believe there's a circuit split, so it's something the Supreme Court might take up. [54:53.720 --> 54:58.020] But there's a case nozzle in the Ninth Circuit, which essentially goes the other way. [54:58.140 --> 55:04.760] It had to deal with a guy who left the company, and he took a whole bunch of data that he wasn't supposed to take with him. [55:05.720 --> 55:15.640] And he was subsequently prosecuted under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act for exceeding his authorization for copying these files that he wasn't supposed to have and then starting his own company with these contact lists and whatnot. [55:16.320 --> 55:22.620] Alex, I want to point out that in the Third Circuit, there's another case where I was the plaintiff. [55:23.440 --> 55:33.200] In the Third Circuit, where I challenged the constitutionality of Title 18, Section 1029, like a sister thing to... [55:33.200 --> 55:34.600] That was an illegal access device? [55:34.800 --> 55:41.800] Well, not an access device, but it pertained to unauthorized access to telecommunication services. [55:42.000 --> 55:48.060] And it did not define, in the statutory language, what unauthorized access meant. [55:48.820 --> 55:54.180] And the court just swallowed whole the government's argument that, well, everybody knows what unauthorized means. [55:54.340 --> 55:57.460] Without even getting into the aspect of, like, who gets to do the authorization? [55:57.820 --> 55:57.940] Yep. [55:58.140 --> 56:00.180] Does the police do the authorization? [56:00.440 --> 56:01.980] Does the system provider provide it? [56:02.100 --> 56:03.600] Or the manufacturer of the equipment? [56:03.740 --> 56:05.180] I mean, it was too vague. [56:05.180 --> 56:07.100] And I challenged that vagueness and lost. [56:07.200 --> 56:08.860] So, unfortunately, I set bad precedent. [56:09.080 --> 56:09.980] But I tried. [56:10.120 --> 56:10.580] I tried. [56:10.580 --> 56:13.340] And the Third Circuit's a good place to go for that. [56:13.480 --> 56:14.900] And the Ninth Circuit, it went the other way. [56:14.980 --> 56:18.280] They found that exceeding authorization in that manner couldn't get you prosecuted. [56:18.480 --> 56:21.740] So, I think this could be ripe for being overturned. [56:21.860 --> 56:24.060] Let's look and we'll keep watching. [56:24.300 --> 56:25.560] We'll definitely keep an eye on all of this. [56:25.700 --> 56:26.800] We're just about out of time. [56:26.980 --> 56:29.640] Send us an email, othat2600.com. [56:29.640 --> 56:32.680] For Off the Hook, for Emanuel Goldstein, this is Rob T. [56:32.820 --> 56:33.220] Firefly. [56:33.420 --> 56:34.120] Have a good week. [56:38.650 --> 56:40.490] I've got some new songs to sing. [56:50.230 --> 56:53.390] Sometimes I'd like to drive across the nations. [56:53.810 --> 56:55.730] That's where I go. [56:57.030 --> 57:02.650] Ride the interstate combinations and drive through the snow. [57:04.070 --> 57:09.710] I feel boyfriends and drink some vodka, champagne, and a dill. [57:10.450 --> 57:13.950] Teen boys would fancy me, although I'm much older. [57:14.270 --> 57:16.390] When do we fail? [57:17.230 --> 57:20.850] It would be my duty to serve the public. [57:21.030 --> 57:23.450] At least till the novelty wanes. [57:24.370 --> 57:27.790] It would always be the first day of spring. [57:28.030 --> 57:30.210] Only the weather would change. [57:30.790 --> 57:37.010] If we follow the world, I could do such wonderful things. [57:37.330 --> 57:38.710] It's all very well. [57:38.710 --> 57:42.230] Giving each heart a new song to sing. [57:43.750 --> 57:47.170] But there's a redistribution of wealth. [57:47.630 --> 57:50.550] And problems that arise with public health. [57:50.850 --> 57:52.830] Perhaps I should delegate. [57:53.930 --> 57:56.470] That seems to be the modern things. [57:57.170 --> 57:59.910] That seems to be the modern things. [58:04.840 --> 58:08.820] I tried to make standards of impeccable insight. [58:08.820 --> 58:11.420] If I ruled the world. [58:12.420 --> 58:15.820] But I'd soon be murdered in cold floods at night. [58:15.840 --> 58:18.380] If I ruled the world. [58:19.560 --> 58:22.660] There'd be jealous folk who'd resent me. [58:23.120 --> 58:25.180] Ruling the world. [58:25.180 --> 58:29.420] But I'd forgive them, incidentally. [58:29.600 --> 58:30.900] Because I'm so great. [58:31.360 --> 58:33.220] Magnanimous considerate. [58:33.540 --> 58:36.140] I'm hardworking and I'm attractive. [58:36.520 --> 58:38.700] Without any family ties. [58:38.700 --> 58:39.960] I [58:49.350 --> 58:52.450] could do such wonderful things. [58:52.510 --> 58:54.190] It's all very well. [58:54.410 --> 58:57.530] Giving each heart a new song to sing. [58:58.110 --> 58:58.790] I [59:03.880 --> 59:06.120] could do such wonderful things. [59:06.420 --> 59:07.840] It's all very well. [59:08.360 --> 59:11.260] Giving each heart a new song to sing. [59:53.680 --> 59:54.800] All right. [59:54.820 --> 59:58.580] Speaking of the mayoral race, it's going down in history. [59:59.880 --> 01:00:08.260] The mayor, Bloomberg, has been the unconstitutional mayor with this stop and frisk. [01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:12.620] And he says, oh, it's good for the community where we're doing the stop and frisk. [01:00:12.620 --> 01:00:19.360] Please line them up and put them on the microphone so I can find out all about them that don't seem to exist.