[00:00.000 --> 00:06.440]  The Personal Computer Show, every Wednesday at 8pm on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:06.740 --> 00:07.480]  Oh, okay.
[00:08.680 --> 00:11.020]  I've got questions about my computer.
[00:11.660 --> 00:13.340]  Any thought questions about your computer?
[00:13.860 --> 00:16.840]  Not my, um, coffee over in my keyboard.
[00:17.120 --> 00:18.040]  Do you think that's a problem?
[00:18.820 --> 00:20.100]  No, not for me.
[00:21.160 --> 00:23.060]  What does it mean you're working right, Jimmy?
[00:23.800 --> 00:26.640]  I'd buy a new one, you know what I mean?
[00:26.920 --> 00:27.240]  Okay.
[00:27.240 --> 00:28.940]  They really have got to be there.
[00:29.140 --> 00:29.940]  It's like the best.
[00:30.120 --> 00:31.500]  It's the Personal Computer Show.
[00:35.340 --> 00:36.480]  All right, that's enough of that.
[00:36.660 --> 00:39.700]  It's, uh, it's WBAI New York.
[00:40.160 --> 00:45.460]  7 o'clock time once again for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[01:09.790 --> 01:11.450]  I hope that's understood.
[01:11.670 --> 01:12.430]  One diddly, no!
[02:37.690 --> 02:40.390]  And the very good evening to provide the program is Off the Hook.
[02:40.490 --> 02:44.250]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:44.610 --> 02:46.510]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:46.910 --> 02:47.130]  Hello.
[02:47.470 --> 02:47.870]  Alex.
[02:48.270 --> 02:48.590]  Good evening.
[02:49.210 --> 02:50.810]  Kyle, we need to find a microphone for you.
[02:51.310 --> 02:51.650]  Hi.
[02:52.010 --> 02:52.710]  Bernie S.
[02:53.150 --> 02:54.030]  Welcome back.
[02:54.610 --> 02:55.090]  Thank you.
[02:55.110 --> 02:55.490]  Where are you?
[02:55.490 --> 02:58.890]  I'm in Pennsylvania, somewhere in the rural areas.
[02:59.050 --> 02:59.330]  Oh, okay.
[02:59.690 --> 03:06.310]  Yeah, um, uh, Kyle and I have returned from, uh, traveling, uh, throughout Europe and various interesting places like that.
[03:06.650 --> 03:14.130]  Um, well, actually, all interesting places within that continent after, uh, attending the OM conference, as, uh, a few of us did.
[03:14.630 --> 03:20.150]  Uh, haven't really talked about it all that much, but, um, there isn't so much else to talk about it.
[03:20.230 --> 03:21.370]  So, so many things happening.
[03:21.910 --> 03:24.230]  Uh, a new war, a new war is coming.
[03:24.370 --> 03:30.310]  Who would have guessed, uh, just in time for the, the new TV season, we have a new war on the, on the horizon.
[03:30.830 --> 03:38.030]  And with new wars come web, uh, uh, web hacks and the New York Times website.
[03:38.810 --> 03:41.570]  Did you just say with new wars come new web hacks?
[03:41.750 --> 03:42.570]  Yeah, I did sort of say that.
[03:42.570 --> 03:43.070]  Like that's a thing.
[03:43.250 --> 03:46.070]  I mean, I think you're right, but like, when did that become a thing?
[03:46.070 --> 03:50.910]  It, well, I don't know, but I'm noticing now that it is a thing and, uh, it happened yet again yesterday.
[03:51.190 --> 03:55.790]  And in fact, into today, I'm not sure why the New York Times itself was targeted.
[03:56.030 --> 04:10.550]  Uh, I mean, I can, I can guess, but there's so many other really good targets that, that I would prefer, but, um, evidence continued to mount that, uh, this was the result of an attack by anyone, I guess, uh, would it be the Syrian electronic army?
[04:10.550 --> 04:11.290]  You've heard of them.
[04:11.410 --> 04:11.590]  Yes.
[04:11.730 --> 04:12.550]  S E A.
[04:12.750 --> 04:18.130]  Uh, they're the group loyal to Syrian president Kyle, but not Syrian president Kyle.
[04:18.230 --> 04:19.190]  He says, you say it so beautifully.
[04:20.450 --> 04:21.670]  Bashir al-Assad.
[04:22.010 --> 04:22.470]  Okay.
[04:22.650 --> 04:23.030]  There you guys.
[04:23.110 --> 04:25.450]  Every time we say his name, you're going to have to come to the microphone.
[04:25.930 --> 04:32.770]  Um, they've been behind multiple attacks on, on media websites in recent months and also on Twitter.
[04:32.770 --> 04:38.350]  And they've taken credit for a sophisticated hack, uh, that had hobbled the news site for roughly 20 hours.
[04:38.650 --> 04:45.450]  Uh, they said in their Twitter feed, the New York times attack was going to deliver an anti-war message, but our server couldn't last for three minutes.
[04:45.670 --> 04:49.850]  I'm not sure if they're criticizing their own server or just were surprised by the amount of traffic.
[04:50.050 --> 05:03.030]  Uh, the attack came as governments in several countries considered military action in light of reports that al-Assad has used chemical weapons against his own people in an effort to call an uprising calling for his ouster.
[05:03.170 --> 05:09.270]  Our website and domain are now down, but it was worth the attempt for hashtag Syria and world peace.
[05:09.830 --> 05:11.990]  Boy, our world has gotten so weird, hasn't it?
[05:11.990 --> 05:20.810]  Do you know that they were also supposedly behind an attack on the instant messaging network Viber just about a month ago, almost a, almost a month exactly ago.
[05:21.110 --> 05:21.990]  The, the what now?
[05:22.090 --> 05:22.310]  The who?
[05:22.330 --> 05:22.690]  It's Viber.
[05:22.790 --> 05:23.630]  Have you heard of Viber?
[05:23.930 --> 05:24.610]  Has anybody heard of Viber?
[05:24.610 --> 05:25.590]  I don't even know how to spell that.
[05:25.650 --> 05:26.830]  Viber, have you heard of WhatsApp?
[05:27.170 --> 05:31.690]  It's, it's very, very similar to WhatsApp, but apparently Viber is run by an Israeli company and is developed by Israelis.
[05:31.690 --> 05:33.030]  Anyone can make up words, Alex.
[05:33.470 --> 05:34.430]  It's true, yeah.
[05:34.650 --> 05:35.430]  V-I-B-E-R.
[05:35.550 --> 05:47.430]  You can look it up, as somebody famous used to say, but apparently they defaced the website or hacked the, I think it was the website, and mentioned something about the Israelis spying on you via Viber.
[05:48.070 --> 05:49.470]  But I wonder about attribution.
[05:49.470 --> 05:50.470]  Via Viber, you just said that.
[05:50.470 --> 05:51.510]  Via Viber, I did say it.
[05:51.610 --> 05:52.910]  But I wonder about attribution here.
[05:53.010 --> 05:55.350]  How do we know the Syrian electronic army is really behind?
[05:55.390 --> 06:01.030]  Anybody can say they're the Syrian electronic army and post something in some broken English, but how do we know?
[06:01.030 --> 06:04.250]  Will you say you're the Syrian electronic army, Alex?
[06:04.410 --> 06:06.590]  Uh, I will say I'm not the Syrian electronic army.
[06:06.590 --> 06:07.830]  See, not everyone will say it.
[06:07.910 --> 06:08.390]  That's true.
[06:08.490 --> 06:09.430]  All right, that's true.
[06:09.550 --> 06:10.410]  That's a very good point.
[06:10.430 --> 06:16.010]  That's the exact sort of thing, though, that someone who was in the Syrian electronic army might say to misdirect us.
[06:16.490 --> 06:18.370]  I can't confirm or deny anything there.
[06:18.650 --> 06:28.250]  Well, the New York Times, uh, for what it's worth, uh, sent out news headlines via Twitter, uh, because people couldn't get to their website.
[06:28.910 --> 06:30.630]  Uh, they also, this is kind of odd.
[06:30.630 --> 06:37.510]  They advised their employees not to send out sensitive emails until the situation is resolved.
[06:37.630 --> 06:42.390]  So apparently they thought that their emails might be, uh, compromised in addition to their website.
[06:42.570 --> 06:43.630]  Yeah, I mean, it makes sense.
[06:43.810 --> 06:50.870]  Uh, the way the attack worked was by changing the, the DNS of the New York Times, which is the, uh, the thing that happens.
[06:50.870 --> 06:57.690]  So when you type NY times.com into your browser, it knows, uh, what computer, where on the internet that computer is.
[06:57.990 --> 07:05.390]  So if they, if the attackers had control to change where the website was, they probably also had control to change where the email went.
[07:05.530 --> 07:10.170]  And, uh, I don't know if they did do so or not, but it's, it's a reasonable precaution.
[07:10.170 --> 07:13.690]  In actuality, this is, uh, reminds me of what happened to 2600 a few years ago.
[07:13.910 --> 07:17.750]  It seems that their, their registrar was the one that was hacked, not the New York Times.
[07:18.450 --> 07:19.430]  That's, that's what I've heard.
[07:19.550 --> 07:19.590]  Yeah.
[07:19.690 --> 07:19.770]  Okay.
[07:19.850 --> 07:24.030]  And their, their registrar, everyone knows who their registrar is now because it's been appearing in all the stories.
[07:24.490 --> 07:34.550]  Melbourne IT, uh, apparently, uh, they were attacked and, um, and, uh, that's why the New York Times was un, unreachable, uh, or compromised.
[07:35.330 --> 07:41.770]  Um, it's, um, yeah, while the site was down, uh, New York Times continued to post articles at its numerical IP address.
[07:41.930 --> 07:42.810]  And of course we don't know what that is.
[07:43.350 --> 07:46.150]  170.149.168.130.
[07:46.710 --> 07:52.330]  And also at this, uh, neat little site, news.nytco.com.
[07:53.130 --> 07:54.830]  They thought of everything, didn't they?
[07:55.410 --> 07:59.730]  Uh, yesterday's episode was the Times second sustained website outage this month.
[08:00.110 --> 08:02.710]  Newspaper site also went down August 14 for several hours.
[08:02.830 --> 08:05.170]  An outage in the newspaper blamed on an internal issue.
[08:05.370 --> 08:08.170]  Maybe the Syrian electronic army was inside the building.
[08:08.310 --> 08:08.650]  I don't know.
[08:09.250 --> 08:15.150]  Uh, in an update on a company blog, Twitter confirmed that there was a DNS issue with one of the domains used to host images.
[08:15.610 --> 08:20.510]  Viewing of images and photos was sporadically impacted by 2229 UTC.
[08:20.870 --> 08:25.170]  The original domain record for TWIMG.com was restored.
[08:25.290 --> 08:27.870]  No Twitter user information was affected by this incident.
[08:28.490 --> 08:30.130]  And if it was, who cares?
[08:30.510 --> 08:31.550]  You know, it's Twitter.
[08:31.550 --> 08:32.290]  Get over it.
[08:33.030 --> 08:34.110]  Uh, go ahead.
[08:34.170 --> 08:35.010]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[08:35.510 --> 08:40.670]  Um, this could very well not be a state actor, the Syrian government.
[08:40.670 --> 08:45.950]  This could be just some person who has Syrian sympathies or a false flag operation.
[08:45.950 --> 09:03.190]  I mean, if this is a state actor, um, it would seem to be more beneficial to the Syrian government for them to, um, monitor the NYT network, New York Times emails, maybe for sources to find out who maybe some Syrian activist, uh, email addresses were,
[09:03.510 --> 09:04.610]  or that sort of thing.
[09:04.730 --> 09:12.950]  This just seems sort of an amateurish thing, kind of like what happened at 2600.com quite a few years ago, uh, a website you'd redirect.
[09:13.170 --> 09:15.310]  So I, I don't know, a DNS redirect.
[09:15.590 --> 09:17.490]  So do you think this is a state actor?
[09:17.670 --> 09:18.070]  What do you think?
[09:18.410 --> 09:22.790]  I think the state probably has more important things to worry about than hacking a website.
[09:23.150 --> 09:23.950]  Yeah, right now, especially.
[09:24.630 --> 09:35.330]  So, you know, it doesn't, there's a lot about what's going on and what's about to happen that, uh, strikes me as a bit, um, odd and, uh, not necessarily believable what we're being told.
[09:35.450 --> 09:37.050]  But then again, what's, what's unusual there?
[09:37.210 --> 09:39.470]  Every time we go down this road, we're lied to.
[09:39.650 --> 09:48.110]  So let's just accept the fact we're being lied to in advance and, uh, and just assume that, uh, nothing is the truth and act on that.
[09:48.270 --> 10:04.210]  You know, and, and another thing to think about as well, Bernie is, you know, this also comes on the heels of various pundits on various news stations claiming that in addition to some kind of missile strike, we will also probably engage in a quote, cyber attack,
[10:04.910 --> 10:06.970]  unquote, on Syria as well.
[10:07.190 --> 10:08.970]  I know we're all really fond of the word.
[10:08.970 --> 10:09.790]  How is that going to be?
[10:09.850 --> 10:10.070]  U.S.
[10:10.150 --> 10:12.670]  government is going to go out and hack some sites in Syria?
[10:12.790 --> 10:13.690]  Is that, is that the plan?
[10:13.810 --> 10:19.430]  I think they were looking for the equivalent of the Syrian New York Times, and they wanted to redirect their, their DNS records.
[10:19.690 --> 10:22.890]  I think that's exactly what a, what a state actor would probably do.
[10:23.090 --> 10:37.950]  And what this means, and this happens every time there's some kind of a, um, um, a conflict like this or an argument, whether it be with, uh, China or Russia or whoever, uh, we'll get deluge with mail from people saying, you must do your patriotic duty and,
[10:38.070 --> 10:40.990]  uh, and, and hack the enemy site for the good of your country.
[10:41.350 --> 10:46.730]  And basically, uh, uh, hackers are thought of as, uh, as, as soldiers in that regard.
[10:46.910 --> 10:47.690]  That's, that's what they want.
[10:47.790 --> 10:52.150]  They want us to, uh, to, to act as if we're soldiers and it doesn't work that way.
[10:52.270 --> 10:54.350]  They will never understand this, but it does not work this way.
[10:55.090 --> 10:56.910]  Uh, so a week from now, who knows?
[10:56.990 --> 10:58.430]  Who knows what will be happening?
[10:58.650 --> 10:59.930]  What, what state the world will be in?
[11:00.290 --> 11:11.810]  Um, I'm sure, I'm sure there'll be more news reports to talk about, but speaking of lying, speaking of lying and, and subterfuge and things like that, the NSA, uh, has, uh, bugged the United Nations New York headquarters.
[11:11.990 --> 11:17.630]  That's according to a report that could further strain relations between Washington and everybody else.
[11:17.870 --> 11:19.790]  Uh, citing secret U.S.
[11:19.870 --> 11:25.790]  documents obtained by fugitive former, here we go, fugitive former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.
[11:26.190 --> 11:28.110]  How do you like that on a business card?
[11:28.770 --> 11:31.830]  Uh, Germany's Der Spiegel said the files showed how the U.S.
[11:32.350 --> 11:34.610]  systematically spied on other states and institutions.
[11:34.890 --> 11:43.270]  The report said the European Union and the U.N.'s Vienna-based nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency, were among those targeted by U.S.
[11:43.770 --> 11:44.550]  intelligence agents.
[11:44.570 --> 11:48.890]  In the summer of 2012, NSA experts succeeded in getting into the U.N.
[11:49.210 --> 11:54.930]  video conferencing system and cracking its coding system, according to one of the documents cited in the report.
[11:55.110 --> 12:00.130]  Uh, the data traffic gives us internal video teleconferences of the United Nations.
[12:00.590 --> 12:01.110]  Yay!
[12:01.690 --> 12:02.750]  Exclamation point.
[12:02.890 --> 12:05.830]  That's a, that's a quote from one of the documents.
[12:06.250 --> 12:09.330]  Uh, they, uh, that's, that's, that's the NSA talking there.
[12:09.910 --> 12:10.190]  Yay.
[12:10.470 --> 12:17.810]  Adding that within three weeks, the number of decoded communications rose from 12 to 458.
[12:18.110 --> 12:27.210]  Internal files also show the NSA spied on the EU legation in New York after it moved to new rooms in 2012.
[12:27.210 --> 12:33.010]  Uh, among the documents, copied by Snowden from NSA computers are part of the EU mission.
[12:33.130 --> 12:34.590]  It's IT infrastructure and servers.
[12:34.830 --> 12:44.770]  According to the documents, the NSA runs a bugging program in more than 80 embassies and consulates worldwide called special collection service straight out of Brazil.
[12:45.230 --> 12:46.870]  The, uh, the film that is not the country.
[12:46.950 --> 12:54.390]  The surveillance is intensive and well-organized and has little or nothing to do with warding off terrorists, said the report.
[12:55.190 --> 12:57.650]  Uh, uh, uh, Briarney, what do you make of this?
[12:57.690 --> 13:03.310]  The report, the NSA report is, is saying, saying that this has nothing to do with warding off terrorists?
[13:04.510 --> 13:08.350]  Uh, that's, well, it says wrote your Spiegel.
[13:08.510 --> 13:20.310]  It's, it's, it's hard to fear from this story that's not reported by Reuters, whether it's, it's, it's your Spiegel saying that, uh, the surveillance is intensive and well-organized and has little or nothing to do with the wording of terrorists, or the NSA.
[13:20.670 --> 13:22.670]  But I doubt the NSA would say that about itself.
[13:22.870 --> 13:23.710]  Yeah, it doesn't seem right.
[13:23.750 --> 13:26.470]  So I guess we're looking at the report by Der Spiegel that...
[13:26.470 --> 13:39.990]  But what amuses me is that the NSA is saying, all the way from DNI Clapper on down, and General Alexander at NSA, that all these programs are designed to thwart terrorism.
[13:40.510 --> 13:45.190]  And so if they're targeting the UN, do they think the UN is full of terrorists?
[13:45.190 --> 13:51.710]  And if so, what are they trying to protect us from the UN black helicopters and UN world domination?
[13:51.950 --> 13:55.550]  Should the Pentagon maybe just drop a cruise missile?
[13:55.890 --> 14:03.630]  Use the Bush doctrine of preemptive strikes and drop a bomb on the enemy UN territory in midtown Manhattan?
[14:03.870 --> 14:04.950]  I mean, what is this?
[14:05.310 --> 14:06.150]  What is this?
[14:06.330 --> 14:13.290]  I think, you know, they would say, if they were on the show, and I wish they were, they would say that information is power.
[14:13.490 --> 14:14.930]  They just want to know what's going on.
[14:15.130 --> 14:24.070]  And it's like, it's like, it's like, if you monitor your child to know that they're not talking to dangerous people on the internet, you do that out of love.
[14:24.270 --> 14:24.630]  All right.
[14:24.790 --> 14:27.830]  And that is why the United States bugs the United Nation.
[14:28.010 --> 14:28.790]  It's out of love.
[14:28.790 --> 14:31.670]  It's out of love to make sure they don't do the wrong thing.
[14:31.950 --> 14:35.350]  So this is the closest you're going to get from me to a defense of the NSA.
[14:35.510 --> 14:38.310]  But their job is to monitor foreign governments.
[14:38.450 --> 14:39.510]  That's why they were created.
[14:40.630 --> 14:44.890]  It's and it's really hard to be surprised that they are in fact monitoring foreign governments.
[14:46.210 --> 14:53.150]  I don't want to say it's okay, but it's a lot more okay than the monitoring individuals who have done nothing wrong.
[14:53.310 --> 15:00.670]  Well, would you say it's okay then for all other foreign espionage agencies to converge on the United Nations in New York and do the same thing?
[15:00.770 --> 15:05.590]  After all, that's, you know, we're not supposed to have this kind of an advantage, but apparently we do.
[15:05.710 --> 15:11.350]  I'm sure there are a number of foreign intelligence agencies that either have done or would very much like to do it.
[15:11.550 --> 15:15.230]  And again, I don't want to say it's okay, but it's a lot less shocking to me.
[15:15.490 --> 15:17.550]  Don't they have advantage because it's like home turf?
[15:18.030 --> 15:18.470]  Yeah.
[15:18.690 --> 15:20.950]  I mean, there already is that advantage, obviously.
[15:21.170 --> 15:25.190]  So it's just, it really seems glaringly unfair.
[15:25.270 --> 15:26.490]  And imagine how the rest of the world feels.
[15:26.710 --> 15:28.950]  I think this is about information though.
[15:29.110 --> 15:41.850]  That and also this like cyber warfare attacks and taking down websites and DNS poisoning, because all of it basically is an adjunct to being able to spy and do other things because you can distract people.
[15:42.950 --> 15:44.990]  You know, I agree with Mike here.
[15:45.090 --> 15:55.670]  I think that these international organizations, you know, places like the EU, the United Nations, I honestly, and especially foreign sovereigns, embassies, things like that, that's pretty much fair game.
[15:55.750 --> 15:57.270]  That's what intelligence is all about.
[15:57.510 --> 16:00.610]  We have to think that, you know, what really is the nature of intelligence?
[16:00.750 --> 16:03.090]  The nature of intelligence, it's basically a raw ingredient.
[16:03.410 --> 16:06.170]  It's a raw ingredient for foreign policy decision making.
[16:06.170 --> 16:07.630]  It's what goes to the president.
[16:07.770 --> 16:12.770]  The more intelligence you have, the more better informed he is about what decisions to make in the interest of the United States.
[16:12.990 --> 16:15.430]  I think these types of organizations are fair game.
[16:15.590 --> 16:18.530]  If we stop doing it, we would be behind the ball.
[16:18.690 --> 16:19.550]  We'd be behind the curve.
[16:19.710 --> 16:27.850]  And I wouldn't, I personally don't think that I would want our country to stop spying on these organizations and our friends and neighbors in that sense, and sovereigns.
[16:27.850 --> 16:28.530]  I think that's okay.
[16:28.630 --> 16:32.790]  When we get down to individuals, human beings, that's a different story entirely.
[16:32.790 --> 16:33.170]  All right.
[16:33.210 --> 16:35.630]  Well, let me, let me just take you guys up on this then.
[16:35.810 --> 16:44.430]  If it is fair game that, uh, that the NSA does this at the UN, um, well, then why is the United States government so upset when it's revealed?
[16:44.770 --> 16:54.430]  If everybody knows this is what goes on, then how come they, they want to, uh, put this guy on a crucifix, Ed Snowden, uh, for revealing information everybody knows?
[16:54.430 --> 17:02.550]  Well, I think it's difficult to attribute the desire to crucify Edward Snowden specifically to this revelation.
[17:02.550 --> 17:07.830]  I think there's plenty of revelations about which they'd, they'd like to go Pontius Pilate on them.
[17:07.930 --> 17:10.130]  But I, I don't think that this one is necessarily it.
[17:10.170 --> 17:15.930]  I mean, to, to anybody who, uh, you know, is familiar with these types of things, you know, this honestly, it, it is routine.
[17:16.090 --> 17:22.450]  I mean, it goes back to World War I when we didn't have an intelligence agency and we started something called the Black Chamber.
[17:22.790 --> 17:33.330]  And I think it was, uh, Secretary of State, Henry Stimson, who basically established a prohibition on spying and said, you know, we do not, gentlemen do not read each other's mail.
[17:33.770 --> 17:35.190]  And the United States didn't spy.
[17:35.270 --> 17:36.250]  We were behind the gun.
[17:36.330 --> 17:37.090]  We were behind the ball.
[17:37.210 --> 17:40.990]  And then we established this Black Chamber where we started to, to do a little bit of spying.
[17:41.130 --> 17:45.890]  We, we, we caught up to speed and hey, when, when it's nation against nation, I'm, I'm fine with that.
[17:46.090 --> 17:47.790]  Let, let them play their cat and mouse game.
[17:47.990 --> 17:51.770]  I'm all for the cat and mouse game as long as everybody gets a cat and a mouse.
[17:52.010 --> 17:58.950]  It just seems to me that, you know, the United Nations is right here in New York and, uh, we have such an unfair advantage.
[17:59.110 --> 18:03.330]  And whenever the United Nations doesn't do what we want it to do, we do it anyway.
[18:03.330 --> 18:13.510]  And I, I refer to the upcoming Syrian actions because the United Nations Security Council is not going to pass, uh, anything that we want it to pass for, for right or wrong.
[18:13.810 --> 18:15.750]  And we're just going to bypass them.
[18:15.750 --> 18:16.930]  Who are we in this?
[18:17.450 --> 18:19.470]  You know damn well who we are, Mike.
[18:19.570 --> 18:20.810]  Let's not play that game.
[18:20.950 --> 18:25.630]  But that, I think that just makes the case to, to spy, uh, even more compelling.
[18:25.630 --> 18:32.150]  So if the United Nations isn't going to go our way and we're going to do it anyway, then we better off, we might as well be prepared to do it.
[18:32.350 --> 18:35.310]  We better, we might as well know ahead of time that they're not going to go our way.
[18:35.910 --> 18:36.710]  Bernie, any thoughts?
[18:37.250 --> 18:38.570]  Well, I agree.
[18:38.850 --> 18:50.570]  I think it's, it's definitely, with, with Mike, what's saying, he's saying is it's, it's less, I'm going to put words in his mouth, but I, I agree that it's less harmful for governments to spy on each other than for governments to spy on individuals and,
[18:50.710 --> 18:55.330]  and provide a chilling effect on individual speech, which is what's happening right now.
[18:55.330 --> 18:58.030]  Uh, and journalist speech who are, journalists are individuals.
[18:58.610 --> 19:07.290]  So, um, uh, yes, the NSA was formed to gather foreign intelligence, uh, primarily from foreign governments, I would expect.
[19:07.750 --> 19:11.010]  And, uh, maybe non-state actors like terrorists, that sort of thing.
[19:11.730 --> 19:14.570]  Um, I don't have any moral qualms with this.
[19:14.690 --> 19:24.710]  I just think I have some moral qualms with hypocrisy that the NSA is saying, oh, no, we're not doing this, or, or, or we shouldn't be exposed for doing this.
[19:24.870 --> 19:26.090]  I mean, it's just silly.
[19:28.250 --> 19:28.770]  Okay.
[19:29.210 --> 19:40.730]  Uh, well, moving on to more NSA actions, uh, National Security Agency officers on several occasions, and this shouldn't really surprise anyone, have channeled their agency's enormous eavesdropping power to spy on love interest.
[19:40.890 --> 19:41.670]  That's according to U.S.
[19:42.190 --> 19:42.190]  officials.
[19:42.430 --> 19:44.150]  Now, the practice isn't frequent, they say.
[19:44.270 --> 19:51.630]  One official estimated a handful of cases in the last decade, but it's common enough to garner its own spy craft label of love int.
[19:52.490 --> 19:53.010]  Yeah.
[19:53.330 --> 20:06.250]  Spy agencies often refer to the various types of intelligence collection with the suffix of int, I-N-T, such as sigint for collecting signals intelligence or communications, and humint for human intelligence or spying.
[20:06.450 --> 20:22.410]  Now, in the wake of revelations last week that NSA had violated privacy rules on nearly 3,000 occasions in a one-year period, NSA Chief Compliance Officer John DeLong emphasized in a conference call with reporters last week that those errors were unintentional.
[20:22.410 --> 20:27.610]  He did say that there have been a couple of willful violations in the past decade.
[20:27.610 --> 20:30.370]  He said he didn't have the exact figures at the moment and probably never would.
[20:30.950 --> 20:37.310]  NSA said in a statement on Friday that there have been very rare instances of willful violations of any kind in the past decade.
[20:37.450 --> 20:39.450]  None have violated key surveillance laws.
[20:39.590 --> 20:45.770]  NSA has zero tolerance for willful violations of the agency's authorities and responds as appropriate.
[20:46.090 --> 20:52.650]  The love int violations involved overseas communications, officials said, such as spying on a partner or spouse.
[20:52.870 --> 20:58.190]  And in each instance, the employee was punished either with an administrative action or termination.
[20:58.430 --> 21:00.910]  And most of the incidents, according to officials, were self-reported.
[21:01.170 --> 21:06.930]  Such admissions can arise, for example, when an employee takes polygraph tests as part of a renewal of a security clearance.
[21:07.090 --> 21:09.590]  So is this even worth mentioning?
[21:09.850 --> 21:18.810]  I think the key sentence in this article is that most of the people who were caught were the ones who self-reported, is that the term?
[21:19.130 --> 21:28.890]  So if you are willing to lie about it, if you are willing to say, I didn't spy on my love interest, apparently you can get away with it.
[21:29.910 --> 21:44.770]  And we know that the internal controls are ineffective because of a very useful case of violating one's authority, which was Edward Snowden, did not get caught until he appeared on camera and said, hey, I took, you know, thousands of documents with me.
[21:45.010 --> 21:55.190]  So it seems to me all but certain that there are many more cases of this love-int who do not self-report and do not get caught by any internal system.
[21:56.250 --> 22:00.090]  I don't know why we should believe almost anything else in the report.
[22:00.290 --> 22:01.890]  Or anything else NSA says.
[22:02.130 --> 22:10.850]  Well, I'm going to go out and I'm going to say, you know, way on a limb here, I'm going to say, it's absolutely fine to collect love-int so long as your girlfriend works at the UN.
[22:12.730 --> 22:13.870]  Completely fine with me.
[22:14.230 --> 22:26.210]  But no, I think more seriously to the point, it's interesting that the communications targeted were overseas communications because that would give them some kind of plausible deniability that they were doing this for a legitimate purpose.
[22:26.590 --> 22:31.230]  If they weren't collecting domestic communications, if they could, maybe they would.
[22:31.390 --> 22:33.150]  Maybe that says something about their capabilities.
[22:33.310 --> 22:37.670]  But the fact that it was targeted to overseas communications is interesting.
[22:37.910 --> 22:45.650]  And then, like Mike said, the self-reporting aspect is also interesting, probably as a result of the security clearance processes and the renewal.
[22:46.590 --> 22:59.110]  But, you know, when I was at Black Hat a couple of weeks ago and I heard General Alexander speak about this, you know, he did mention that there were some screw-ups, but that this internal audit program that they have would eventually catch it and that this training was very,
[22:59.190 --> 23:04.790]  very rigorous and that there was all this oversight about all the collection and whether or not somebody was a U.S.
[23:04.910 --> 23:05.210]  person.
[23:05.450 --> 23:09.970]  And it all seems to be able to be just thrown out if they decide it.
[23:10.170 --> 23:12.350]  If they decide that this person is not a U.S.
[23:12.410 --> 23:18.170]  person, which is an assumption they had to make when they started to collect that love end, then they could do what they wanted to do.
[23:18.250 --> 23:19.250]  That's a little scary to me.
[23:19.250 --> 23:38.730]  Well, I'd like to talk about the speech that you witnessed and how he addressed these huge issues and if he tried to excuse any of the things that the NSA has been complicit in or had anything to say about Snowden or was asked any challenging questions whatsoever.
[23:38.990 --> 23:39.510]  Well, two things.
[23:39.630 --> 23:50.630]  You raised two really interesting points there because, and I don't know if anybody noticed this, but during the entire speech, he did not say the word Snowden once.
[23:51.170 --> 23:51.950]  Not once.
[23:52.110 --> 23:53.030]  It was very interesting.
[23:53.330 --> 23:59.150]  And another curious fact was that basically, there were probably about 3,000 people in the room at Black Hat there.
[23:59.250 --> 24:00.090]  I was there with a colleague.
[24:00.270 --> 24:01.730]  He saved a seat for me.
[24:02.230 --> 24:06.010]  And he says, I'm kind of in the middle, maybe about five rows back from the front.
[24:06.210 --> 24:07.070]  I meet him there.
[24:07.430 --> 24:14.870]  And it turns out that we were sitting next to the one person who decided to heckle General Alexander the entire time.
[24:15.530 --> 24:17.210]  It was slightly embarrassing.
[24:17.210 --> 24:18.930]  I was sitting there and the media was watching me.
[24:19.010 --> 24:21.710]  I thought I didn't want anybody to attribute the heckling to me.
[24:22.810 --> 24:34.730]  But what General Alexander always went back to when people would criticize him about reading the Constitution or you lied to Congress or this is an illegal program or something like that, he would constantly go back to the issue of oversight.
[24:34.730 --> 24:38.370]  And he claimed, look, there's oversight in so many aspects of this.
[24:38.550 --> 24:42.490]  There is oversight from our General Counsel and National Security Agency and his set of lawyers.
[24:42.650 --> 24:44.330]  There's oversight in the audit process.
[24:44.590 --> 24:48.750]  There is oversight from Congress and all the members of Congress and their staff.
[24:48.910 --> 24:51.410]  And there's oversight from the executive level.
[24:51.550 --> 24:53.610]  There's oversight in his staff and his lawyers.
[24:53.650 --> 24:57.110]  And look, everybody has said this is a legal program.
[24:57.290 --> 25:00.530]  There's oversight, let's not forget, from a U.S.
[25:00.530 --> 25:05.230]  This federal court, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, and these federally appointed lifetime judges.
[25:05.430 --> 25:07.070]  There's so much oversight in this program.
[25:07.270 --> 25:08.670]  You have to trust us.
[25:08.810 --> 25:10.310]  That was what he kept going back to.
[25:10.590 --> 25:15.710]  And what I keep saying is, I think that this oversight, especially in Congress, was what failed us.
[25:16.670 --> 25:20.310]  And it's a political problem, and I think it requires a political solution.
[25:21.490 --> 25:25.610]  Yeah, my impression was there's very little oversight and very little accountability.
[25:25.870 --> 25:33.250]  All these things are being kept secret, and we're being told that the laws are being followed, but we play no part in these laws.
[25:33.350 --> 25:44.090]  We don't even know what these laws are half the time that they talk about in secret, and it just basically strikes me as a whole bunch of subterfuge and lies.
[25:44.090 --> 25:48.550]  My question is, did they call him on this?
[25:48.650 --> 25:52.170]  Did people stand up and ask him questions that made him visibly squirm?
[25:52.430 --> 26:00.670]  There were questions that basically were volunteered to him without anybody calling on this particular person.
[26:00.670 --> 26:03.570]  In fact, this was the person that was sitting one seat away from me.
[26:03.570 --> 26:18.530]  And one interesting repartee was basically, so the last heckle, and you do have to call it a heckle, because this was an unsolicited question, that was yelled at, was, read the Constitution.
[26:18.870 --> 26:21.870]  And General Alexander, as a retort, said, I did.
[26:22.170 --> 26:23.170]  You should, too.
[26:24.230 --> 26:27.050]  I think maybe that person was planted by Mr. Alexander.
[26:27.270 --> 26:27.990]  It's possible.
[26:27.990 --> 26:31.070]  I mean, well, General Alexander clearly reads all kinds of things.
[26:31.650 --> 26:41.510]  But it's really worrying to me that we have all these levels of oversight, and we know they're ineffective.
[26:41.910 --> 26:43.470]  Like, we know they're ineffective.
[26:43.490 --> 26:44.650]  It's no longer a question.
[26:45.330 --> 26:47.650]  Part of it, you know, I don't want to defend the Congress.
[26:47.850 --> 26:49.870]  I already defended the NSA, the Congress.
[26:50.050 --> 26:51.270]  I don't want to defend it all.
[26:51.270 --> 26:58.670]  But the heads of these agencies have shown that they are willing to go and lie before the Congress.
[27:00.190 --> 27:04.590]  So, you know, Congress should maybe wise up a little bit and not fall for it.
[27:04.690 --> 27:10.970]  But it is harder to do the oversight job correctly when the people you're overseeing are willing to lie to you so blatantly.
[27:11.910 --> 27:21.390]  Yeah, I think you raise a very, very interesting point here, Mike, because when you look at the agencies involved and the people that are involved, these are political actors.
[27:21.650 --> 27:26.770]  The people that are making these decisions with regard to oversight are, in fact, political appointees.
[27:27.010 --> 27:31.510]  You look at the general counsel of the National Security Agency, political appointee.
[27:31.710 --> 27:36.450]  General counsel of basically every single intelligence agency is a political appointee.
[27:36.450 --> 27:47.930]  Now, the people that work for him are not political appointees, but the political appointee can tell the executive and the oversight committees, which are also very, very political actors, what they want to hear.
[27:48.750 --> 27:51.550]  So if it's... there's a political endemic here.
[27:51.670 --> 27:55.810]  And this is why I keep saying I think that the legal system isn't the place to solve these problems.
[27:55.990 --> 27:58.510]  I think it's a matter of we the people.
[27:58.670 --> 28:02.970]  It's a matter of people getting riled up about this and telling their politicians they don't appreciate it.
[28:02.970 --> 28:06.390]  Because when we make it very political, we hold people accountable.
[28:06.770 --> 28:09.370]  And without that accountability, I don't think anything is going to change in this sphere.
[28:10.250 --> 28:10.810]  All right.
[28:10.930 --> 28:11.590]  Well, moving on.
[28:11.890 --> 28:20.890]  Remember back a couple months ago when Edward Snowden was expected to fly through Cuba, and instead a whole bunch of journalists wound up flying there and getting stranded?
[28:21.670 --> 28:23.250]  Well, a story has come out.
[28:23.350 --> 28:24.770]  This was reported on Reuters.
[28:25.450 --> 28:26.410]  Former U.S.
[28:26.430 --> 28:34.250]  spy agency contractor Snowden got stuck in the transit zone of a Moscow airport because Havana said it would not let him fly from Russia to Cuba.
[28:34.630 --> 28:38.070]  That's according to a Russian newspaper that reported this on Monday.
[28:38.950 --> 28:42.230]  Now, citing several sources, including one close to the U.S.
[28:42.330 --> 28:53.170]  State Department, the newspaper said the reason was at the last moment, the reason he was stranded and didn't go, at the last moment Cuba told officials to stop Snowden from boarding the Aeroflot flight.
[28:53.170 --> 29:00.190]  It said Cuba had changed its mind after pressure by the United States, which wants to try Snowden on espionage charges.
[29:00.550 --> 29:05.070]  Now, just today I heard that former President Fidel Castro angrily denied this.
[29:05.070 --> 29:07.670]  He actually got up out of his bed to do this.
[29:08.430 --> 29:11.070]  And that should tell you how passionately he feels about it.
[29:11.150 --> 29:17.130]  But it's just weird to see a story like this because, and this sentence in particular, Reuters cannot immediately verify the report.
[29:17.270 --> 29:21.790]  Allowing Snowden to land would have put Cuba's relations with the United States at risk.
[29:21.790 --> 29:22.750]  What relations?
[29:23.090 --> 29:24.450]  There are no relations.
[29:24.710 --> 29:26.270]  It's a horrible relationship.
[29:26.270 --> 29:29.410]  Why would they care if it got any worse?
[29:29.470 --> 29:30.990]  I just cannot imagine that.
[29:31.310 --> 29:33.130]  Something about this just doesn't make sense.
[29:33.250 --> 29:38.490]  And I don't think Cuba is in the habit of kowtowing to the United States, unless I'm really not seeing something.
[29:38.690 --> 29:40.810]  I mean, it's possible the U.S.
[29:41.070 --> 29:43.490]  offered Cuba something for this action.
[29:43.730 --> 29:49.630]  But, yeah, this story needs a lot more evidence before I really believe it.
[29:50.450 --> 29:51.270]  All right.
[29:51.410 --> 29:53.530]  And moving down to New Zealand.
[29:53.890 --> 30:08.810]  Police affidavits related to the raid on Kim.com's Mega Mansion appear to show that New Zealand police and spy agencies are able to tap directly into United States surveillance systems, such as PRISM, to capture email and other traffic.
[30:08.810 --> 30:10.790]  Yes, we're hearing about PRISM again.
[30:11.010 --> 30:27.350]  The discovery was made by a blogger who wrote that the Organized and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand, AFKENS, requested assistance from the Government Communications Security Bureau, the country's Signals Intelligence Unit, SIGINT, as we described,
[30:27.890 --> 30:33.190]  which is in charge of surveilling the Pacific region under the Five Eyes Agreement.
[30:33.790 --> 30:43.910]  A list of so-called selectors or search terms were provided to GCSB by the police for the surveillance of emails and other data traffic generated by .com and his mega-upload associates.
[30:45.190 --> 30:56.790]  Some selectors of interest were redacted out, but others, such as Kim.com's email addresses, the mail proxy server used for some of the accounts and websites, remained in the documents that were obtained.
[30:57.610 --> 31:09.870]  And, of course, as we've reported, .com's mansion was raided by New Zealand police last year for crimes related to online piracy based on indictments filed in the United States, and a very interesting case as it continues to unfold.
[31:09.870 --> 31:16.910]  One note on the reports generated from the surveillance points to the system used capturing real-time traffic.
[31:17.150 --> 31:29.330]  Several of the documents are classified as confidential comint New Zealand eyes only, with one being marked as secret comint related to New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Great Britain, USA.
[31:29.830 --> 31:42.330]  The spying on .com, his wife, and others was deemed to be illegal, as all three are residents of New Zealand, and the GCSB is precluded by current law from intercepting these communications.
[31:42.670 --> 31:52.470]  In the United States, declassified government documents have been released to the Electronic Frontier Foundation that show the NSA operates an eavesdropping program that has direct access to internet communications.
[31:53.710 --> 31:58.770]  So, yeah, it appears that the PRISM is somewhat real based on this.
[31:59.570 --> 32:06.430]  I mean, we know that the spying is real from this and many other pieces of evidence.
[32:06.850 --> 32:21.830]  I read the documents, and maybe I missed something, but the PRISM itself was not mentioned, so it's possible this data came from the PRISM program, from the X-KeyScore program that we mentioned a few weeks ago that is, I think, much more frightening than the PRISM program.
[32:21.830 --> 32:25.010]  It's possible it came from some other program that we don't know the name of yet.
[32:25.650 --> 32:28.690]  I don't think the names of the programs are the important thing.
[32:28.810 --> 32:35.210]  I think it's the spying that these governments have the power to do.
[32:35.530 --> 32:38.270]  That's the frightening thing, not the ugly logo.
[32:39.110 --> 32:41.150]  Bernie, any feedback on that?
[32:41.750 --> 32:47.790]  Well, it does sound like Kim.com is building a good defense case for himself.
[32:48.630 --> 33:03.830]  Well, it remains to be seen where that's going to go, but he seems to have a lot of good defense information he's putting together to show that his rights were violated every which way to raid his property and seize his belongings.
[33:04.110 --> 33:05.630]  So we'll see where that goes.
[33:06.790 --> 33:07.150]  Okay.
[33:08.010 --> 33:12.390]  We are going to take phone calls in just a little bit, and I'll give out the phone number.
[33:12.470 --> 33:16.890]  Actually, I have to look over here, because I never remember this new phone number that we're not going to have for much longer.
[33:17.630 --> 33:28.150]  It's 212-650-5782, and we can only take one call at a time, and we'll be taking calls in a few minutes, just so you listeners out there can get ready for that.
[33:28.290 --> 33:29.810]  I don't think we've taken phone calls in a while, have we?
[33:30.970 --> 33:38.510]  We weren't on the air for a while, and we had a number of phone guests over the past few weeks, and a lot of interesting things to talk about, so we'd like to hear from our listeners.
[33:38.770 --> 33:48.430]  And, of course, you can write to us here at Off The Hook, O-T-H at 2600.com, as we continue to broadcast here, WBAI here in Harlem, and soon in Brooklyn.
[33:48.830 --> 33:49.890]  That's the word.
[33:50.090 --> 33:56.810]  And, yes, there have been a lot of changes around here, a lot of painful changes, but we are continuing in a time of transition.
[33:56.910 --> 34:04.970]  I think, in the end, we're going to get a much better place, much better station, much better programming, but that all depends on our listeners, obviously, as far as their support.
[34:05.750 --> 34:18.670]  Continuing with the next chapter in the Bradley Manning case, shortly after the verdict last week, a statement was issued by Manning, and I'm going to read that statement.
[34:18.930 --> 34:22.530]  I want to thank everybody who has supported me over the last three years.
[34:22.830 --> 34:27.110]  Throughout this long ordeal, your letters of support and encouragement have helped keep me strong.
[34:27.370 --> 34:35.230]  I am forever indebted to those who wrote to me, made a donation to my defense fund, or came to watch a portion of the trial.
[34:35.850 --> 34:44.650]  I would especially like to thank Courage to Resist and the Bradley Manning Support Network for their tireless efforts in raising awareness for my case and providing for my legal representation.
[34:45.470 --> 34:50.410]  As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me.
[34:50.810 --> 34:52.270]  I am Chelsea Manning.
[34:52.430 --> 34:53.410]  I am a female.
[34:53.930 --> 34:59.310]  Given the way that I feel and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible.
[34:59.310 --> 35:01.450]  I hope that you will support me in this transition.
[35:01.690 --> 35:09.290]  I also request that starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun, accept an official mail to the confinement facility.
[35:09.630 --> 35:13.570]  I look forward to receiving letters from supporters and having the opportunity to write back.
[35:13.730 --> 35:14.690]  Thank you, Chelsea E.
[35:15.150 --> 35:15.490]  Manning.
[35:15.650 --> 35:17.830]  And the E has been changed from Edward to Elizabeth as well.
[35:18.950 --> 35:24.030]  And the story continues to be very interesting, but I think something very basic and simple here.
[35:24.330 --> 35:26.890]  If you respect somebody, you respect their wishes.
[35:26.890 --> 35:34.410]  And I think anyone who respects what Bradley Manning, Chelsea Manning has done should respect this.
[35:35.290 --> 35:36.730]  It's a simple thing.
[35:36.870 --> 35:52.790]  If you can call Snoop Dogg, Snoop Lion, if you can refer to somebody as Prince or Madonna because that's what they want you to refer to them as or be referred to as a female because they identify as being a female more than being a male, that's simple human respect.
[35:52.790 --> 35:56.610]  And I think we certainly owe Chelsea Manning that much.
[35:56.750 --> 36:00.750]  That said, I don't want to jump all over people who get the pronouns wrong or get mixed up.
[36:00.890 --> 36:02.890]  It can be confusing, I know.
[36:03.050 --> 36:06.230]  And there are newspapers that are reporting all kinds of different ways.
[36:06.610 --> 36:10.130]  It's somewhat amusing to see how they mess it up.
[36:10.290 --> 36:19.910]  But let's focus on what's important here, basically respecting Chelsea Manning and realizing what has been done here, what has been revealed.
[36:19.910 --> 36:23.670]  and I think the story continues to be very much alive.
[36:23.890 --> 36:26.770]  But let's not trivialize it in any way.
[36:27.170 --> 36:29.130]  Being transgender is very, very difficult.
[36:29.290 --> 36:34.910]  Just here in this neighborhood in the past couple of days we had a brutal killing of a transgender woman.
[36:35.170 --> 36:38.530]  And this kind of thing happens even in a city like New York all the time.
[36:38.850 --> 36:40.410]  And it's very important.
[36:40.490 --> 36:41.070]  And it's huge.
[36:41.170 --> 36:46.330]  It's huge for somebody already going through hell to stand up and say something like that.
[36:46.430 --> 36:51.730]  So I continue to respect this individual for being an individual.
[36:52.110 --> 36:53.630]  Not the easiest thing in the world to do.
[36:55.310 --> 37:03.970]  I do want to distinguish though between people who make honest errors in pronouns and people who intentionally are mean.
[37:04.750 --> 37:08.690]  And some of our media has been intentionally mean.
[37:09.370 --> 37:14.670]  And to the extent that any of these authors care what I think, I don't think that's okay.
[37:15.390 --> 37:17.170]  Well, I mean, they've been mean from the start.
[37:17.170 --> 37:22.250]  They've been saying that Bradley Manning at the time deserves to be hung for treason.
[37:22.270 --> 37:23.050]  And that's kind of mean.
[37:23.290 --> 37:27.190]  So I'm not surprised that they're being mean in this particular regard as well.
[37:27.350 --> 37:30.830]  I didn't say I was surprised at all.
[37:31.430 --> 37:32.590]  And by all means, yes.
[37:32.630 --> 37:35.650]  If people are being disrespectful, they should be called on that.
[37:36.230 --> 37:37.170]  But it's just...
[37:39.030 --> 37:42.570]  It's educational, fascinating, interesting, all of this.
[37:42.570 --> 37:46.530]  And we cannot forget and we cannot just brush it aside.
[37:46.670 --> 37:52.090]  And that's why we have to continue to follow this case even after the sentencing has happened.
[37:52.450 --> 37:52.690]  Alex.
[37:53.050 --> 37:55.150]  I completely agree with you, Emmanuel.
[37:55.370 --> 37:59.910]  I think as you so rightly pointed out, this is really a matter of respect.
[37:59.910 --> 38:01.190]  It's a matter of human dignity.
[38:01.410 --> 38:07.650]  I think it's also important to note that she has gone through hell, as you've said.
[38:07.850 --> 38:09.290]  This has been very, very difficult.
[38:09.290 --> 38:15.870]  She has not been treated with anything or in a manner that even resembles the human dignity that she should...
[38:15.870 --> 38:17.190]  that any human being should be afforded.
[38:17.410 --> 38:23.770]  So I think using the right pronouns, trying to be as respectful as possible as her wishes, I think is very, very important.
[38:23.770 --> 38:26.970]  I think as her supporters, we owe her that much.
[38:27.170 --> 38:28.650]  We're all very progressive people.
[38:29.250 --> 38:30.270]  We're good human beings.
[38:30.370 --> 38:31.590]  We're listening to WBAI.
[38:31.670 --> 38:32.810]  This is something we can all understand.
[38:32.810 --> 38:34.370]  I feel like we're preaching to the choir here.
[38:34.550 --> 38:36.170]  But yet at the same time, it's still...
[38:36.170 --> 38:37.470]  it's a very important point to make.
[38:37.610 --> 38:47.250]  Well, we are in many ways preaching to the choir and in other ways, members of other choirs or other communities are going to listen to us too and maybe not quite get it right away.
[38:47.410 --> 38:52.250]  And what I'm saying is we need to be a little bit patient and understanding and try to teach.
[38:52.410 --> 38:53.230]  Try to teach people.
[38:53.270 --> 38:54.210]  Not condemn so quickly.
[38:54.290 --> 38:57.010]  I've seen a lot of condemnation of people who don't quite get it.
[38:57.190 --> 39:01.350]  And, you know, that's kind of defeatist, I think.
[39:01.370 --> 39:02.890]  I don't think we'll get anywhere that way.
[39:03.310 --> 39:12.290]  And from a human rights perspective, whether or not the military system is going to accommodate this hormone therapy or permit it to occur, that's another issue entirely.
[39:12.690 --> 39:17.430]  This is something that we shouldn't lose track of and we should continue to follow as her supporters.
[39:17.430 --> 39:25.110]  I think we owe her that much to try to track these issues and make sure that those people that have the power to help her are actually, in fact, helping her.
[39:25.810 --> 39:26.410]  All right.
[39:26.570 --> 39:30.450]  A couple of letters I'd like to read before we move to phone calls.
[39:31.750 --> 39:32.230]  Greetings.
[39:32.410 --> 39:35.830]  And the pronouns here might be off because some of these letters have been written before.
[39:36.370 --> 39:42.670]  I feel that Mr. Manning was likely in the right regarding releasing the video where civilians were killed.
[39:42.870 --> 39:57.850]  I do not feel that Mr. Manning was correct in releasing various quote-unquote cables or emails which do not out anyone specifically, but anyone doing an analysis could easily pick up on code words, tactics, etc., and cause problems, not to mention the issue with diplomacy.
[39:58.290 --> 40:00.510]  Please do not advocate everything that Manning did.
[40:00.650 --> 40:06.210]  I know the slant of your show is not exactly pro-government when it comes to these type of issues, but discretion is required.
[40:06.550 --> 40:10.970]  You rhetorically asked on the air if the soldiers responsible for gunning down civilians were punished.
[40:11.130 --> 40:14.490]  They were not punished because they were following orders to open fire.
[40:14.950 --> 40:21.110]  Considering that the quote-unquote bad guys in these wars we are fighting do not wear obvious uniforms, I don't think the soldiers were in the wrong.
[40:21.770 --> 40:26.810]  Snowden, on the other hand, is to be applauded for having the guts to out that PowerPoint presentation on PRISM.
[40:26.950 --> 40:28.370]  Thanks, John Z., for your letter.
[40:28.950 --> 40:30.450]  But I disagree pretty strongly.
[40:30.450 --> 40:31.750]  I think most of us probably do.
[40:31.850 --> 40:32.810]  Mike, would you like to voice that?
[40:32.930 --> 40:42.510]  Yeah, so a few years ago when this story first came to our attention, this might have been, I think, I disagreed at the time, but it might have been a reasonable argument to make.
[40:43.070 --> 40:54.130]  But what has happened, as our listeners know, is that there was a trial which went on for some months in which the government attempted to prove that anybody at all was harmed by Manning's actions.
[40:54.290 --> 40:56.950]  And the government did not do so.
[40:57.130 --> 41:01.650]  They did not provide any public evidence that anyone was harmed by Manning's actions.
[41:02.190 --> 41:07.610]  So I don't think there's really any reason to believe that anyone was harmed.
[41:07.610 --> 41:16.510]  And I am just so sick of the reason, the excuse that they were just following orders.
[41:16.990 --> 41:18.090]  Well, those orders were wrong.
[41:18.510 --> 41:20.970]  And people like Manning knew this.
[41:21.190 --> 41:22.850]  People like Snowden knew this.
[41:23.070 --> 41:29.170]  And journalists like Assange and Greenwald know this, which is why they focus on it.
[41:29.370 --> 41:35.210]  And we need many, many more people to do the same because just following orders, that doesn't cut it.
[41:35.210 --> 41:40.830]  I mean, if we think that just following orders is okay, then we can go after the people who gave the orders.
[41:40.830 --> 41:44.770]  I'd be totally fine with that as a substitute or as a replacement.
[41:45.290 --> 41:53.890]  But the other thing that caught my attention about this letter was the use of the term bad guys, which is a term I don't generally use.
[41:54.090 --> 41:54.970]  It was in quotes.
[41:55.170 --> 41:55.350]  Yeah.
[41:55.470 --> 42:07.510]  But it's not clear to me how the people living in the country fighting the occupying power are automatically the bad guys just because they don't speak the same language as I do.
[42:09.370 --> 42:19.530]  Definitely, there are bad guys, bad girls, bad people of all sorts on all sides of this.
[42:19.650 --> 42:21.150]  But I would have to...
[42:21.150 --> 42:26.930]  if you had like a classic movie villain, it would be the one with the guns invading your country.
[42:27.250 --> 42:28.590]  So, I don't know.
[42:28.930 --> 42:29.310]  Well said.
[42:29.510 --> 42:29.870]  Emmanuel.
[42:30.050 --> 42:30.570]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[42:30.730 --> 42:39.090]  I just want to also point out there's a premise here that we're missing and that is that the people who killed innocent Reuters journalists in the U.S.
[42:39.190 --> 42:42.610]  military were not just following orders.
[42:43.030 --> 42:52.110]  They said that they saw people carrying certain weapons like an RPV, like a portable missile launcher.
[42:52.430 --> 42:53.530]  That was not true.
[42:54.030 --> 42:55.430]  And then they received it.
[42:55.530 --> 42:58.330]  Once they said that, they received the orders to kill them.
[42:59.450 --> 43:13.170]  So, at the very least, those soldiers should be disciplined for falsely, maybe not intentionally, but making a critical error that resulted in the death of innocent people.
[43:13.550 --> 43:16.570]  And you can't just fall back on the following orders.
[43:16.750 --> 43:21.390]  The orders resulted from them giving bad information to the people who were giving them orders.
[43:21.530 --> 43:22.310]  Yeah, outright lying.
[43:22.310 --> 43:26.190]  But then again, with people like Clapper in charge, that's the standard.
[43:26.610 --> 43:27.630]  Let's read another letter.
[43:27.830 --> 43:33.750]  I just wanted to clear up some things from the recent show about Leavenworth, which is where Chelsea Manning will be serving her sentence.
[43:34.470 --> 43:38.470]  There is the city of Leavenworth, Kansas and Fort Leavenworth located in Kansas.
[43:38.730 --> 43:42.950]  Fort Leavenworth came first as a camp to help control the indigenous people in the region.
[43:43.410 --> 43:50.550]  The city of Leavenworth has what is called the United States Penitentiary and Fort Leavenworth has the United States Disciplinary Barracks.
[43:50.770 --> 43:52.070]  Don't we live in a wonderful country?
[43:52.210 --> 43:56.030]  The USDB was built a few years before the USP was put up.
[43:56.570 --> 44:03.890]  Eventually, the USDB deteriorated so badly a new one was finally built around 2000 and the old one torn down.
[44:04.230 --> 44:13.410]  The old one could house about 2000 inmates but since a drawdown of the number of troops and an increased number of regional confinement facilities for the branches of military, the new one holds 500 inmates.
[44:13.510 --> 44:15.290]  Thank you, Trent, for that.
[44:15.450 --> 44:17.770]  I don't know why I'm echoing like that but I'm going to turn you down, Bernie.
[44:18.310 --> 44:21.650]  Thank you, Trent, for that information on where our various prisons stand.
[44:21.870 --> 44:28.410]  And this final letter before we take some phone calls at 212-650-5782.
[44:29.070 --> 44:35.850]  Once again, Off the Hook is completely losing focus and turning into the let's read political news stories for an hour and state the obvious.
[44:36.370 --> 44:40.910]  Again, isn't this show supposed to be about technology, hacking, hackers, and such?
[44:41.090 --> 44:46.350]  I am so sick of hearing about the same news stories over and over again about how the US government sucks.
[44:46.350 --> 44:47.090]  I get it.
[44:47.210 --> 44:52.930]  I listen to Off the Hook as the alternative to the everyone is out to get you Alex Jones Occupy liberal radio hour.
[44:53.630 --> 44:54.570]  Wow, Alex Jones.
[44:54.790 --> 44:57.830]  I'm very disappointed in the show's tired-out political content.
[44:58.010 --> 45:01.770]  Let's just bitch about the government for an hour and come back next week with nothing to show for it.
[45:02.450 --> 45:03.790]  Also, I can't hear Bernie.
[45:03.930 --> 45:08.090]  The audio for people on the phone is so low and the people in the studio are so loud that it's getting really annoying.
[45:08.530 --> 45:09.810]  I'm catching up on back shows.
[45:09.890 --> 45:11.850]  This has been going on for at least a year signed to Angelo.
[45:11.970 --> 45:13.130]  Angelo, thank you for your comments.
[45:13.350 --> 45:17.090]  And, you know, we're aware of some problems with audio like right now, for instance, with the Echo.
[45:17.850 --> 45:21.890]  But Bernie, maybe you could just speak a little louder and maybe you have something to say about that letter.
[45:22.210 --> 45:23.250]  And it wasn't just me.
[45:23.350 --> 45:25.450]  They said it was when other people were on the phone as well.
[45:25.530 --> 45:29.990]  So maybe when we move to the new studios in Brooklyn, that problem could be addressed with new equipment.
[45:30.150 --> 45:30.410]  We'll see.
[45:31.610 --> 45:33.410]  Do you have anything to say about the other
[45:40.790 --> 45:43.390]  out from politics when you look at the big picture?
[45:43.690 --> 45:44.870]  I mean, I think they're inseparable.
[45:45.310 --> 45:46.330]  And they're really...
[45:46.330 --> 45:59.650]  I don't know of any other media outlet besides Off the Hook that's really consistently focusing on how these technologies are being abused to affect us, all of us, and the political process.
[45:59.890 --> 46:01.450]  So, you know, I'm sorry.
[46:01.570 --> 46:04.530]  I really don't have any apologies for our content.
[46:04.710 --> 46:15.310]  We do focus on some technical aspects of things, but in how they pertain to how these technologies are being abused by governments and others to affect people.
[46:15.490 --> 46:19.990]  I, however, do want to offer an apology for the annoying sound that was taking place while you were speaking.
[46:20.050 --> 46:23.950]  That's the other phone line ringing, and we don't have the ability apparently to filter that out.
[46:24.030 --> 46:26.230]  But that, again, will disappear once we move to new studios.
[46:26.390 --> 46:26.550]  Kyle?
[46:27.270 --> 46:32.810]  I just wanted to say one thing about the Chelsea Manning statement that was released.
[46:33.450 --> 46:37.950]  Basically, let's keep in mind that before she was...
[46:39.270 --> 46:45.270]  before, like, in joining the military, joining us, Bradley, she's grappling with that, right?
[46:45.430 --> 47:02.070]  And it says in the statement that it was something that she was aware of from a young age, but it takes time to, like, grow and get the confidence to say that even to yourself and be comfortable with that as, like, an identity going forward.
[47:02.070 --> 47:02.230]  forward.
[47:02.830 --> 47:20.990]  And I just think it's interesting or just worth really being considerate of the fact that the environment that she was in from the time she was Bradley to now Chelsea was extremely hostile and, like, not supportive at all.
[47:21.210 --> 47:26.430]  So, usually it's through, like, positive community.
[47:26.610 --> 47:44.330]  Sometimes it's from, like, negative stuff that you get pushed to that, but either way it's, like, really, really difficult to imagine how, like, I don't know, actual, like, reassignment and hormone therapy is, like, working in the context, not just logistically,
[47:44.350 --> 47:47.290]  but as, like, solution, as, like, the best thing.
[47:47.510 --> 48:01.590]  So, I don't know, I think everybody, like, being supportive of that choice and using the pronouns is helpful, but there's a lot of other support that hopefully she'll have access to given where she's going to be for the next couple of years.
[48:02.750 --> 48:06.770]  And hopefully it won't be longer than that, but we'll just have to see.
[48:07.130 --> 48:12.130]  And more information can be found at freebradleymanning.org.
[48:12.150 --> 48:15.090]  I think a squatter is sitting on freechelseamanning.org.
[48:15.210 --> 48:19.790]  Unfortunately, that wasn't thought out as far as getting that site reserved.
[48:20.490 --> 48:22.510]  But let's take some phone calls from listeners now.
[48:22.630 --> 48:25.170]  Again, the phone number 212-650-5782.
[48:25.510 --> 48:25.990]  Good evening.
[48:26.170 --> 48:26.950]  You're on Off the Hook.
[48:27.450 --> 48:27.950]  Yes, hi.
[48:28.210 --> 48:28.930]  My name is Rose.
[48:29.230 --> 48:31.570]  Yeah, you're going to have to speak up or there's going to be a horrible sound.
[48:31.810 --> 48:32.590]  Is that better?
[48:32.910 --> 48:33.670]  A little bit.
[48:34.010 --> 48:34.250]  Okay.
[48:35.050 --> 48:38.330]  Yeah, I just wanted to talk about Bradley Manning you were mentioning.
[48:38.730 --> 48:39.430]  Okay, go ahead.
[48:39.970 --> 48:40.550]  Oh, hi.
[48:41.630 --> 48:42.410]  This is Rose.
[48:42.590 --> 48:46.290]  I've gone to the hearings.
[48:46.590 --> 48:48.350]  I've talked to you before, Emmanuel.
[48:48.730 --> 48:50.370]  Yes, you've talked on the other radio show.
[48:50.370 --> 48:54.770]  I'm sorry about the condition of our phone line, so please try and speak up and we only have a few minutes.
[48:55.030 --> 49:11.810]  Okay, yeah, no, I was just saying that I was glad to hear what you said about the name because I was simply myself, I was just trying to be respectful and I may not agree with, personally, I don't agree with his timing because now we have to have people coming out of the woodwork,
[49:12.370 --> 49:31.250]  these idiots, you know, obsessing about his name and they don't believe that he wants to be, you know, called Chelsea and just, you know, a lot of controversy about it, but if we could just, you know, respect his wishes, that's all.
[49:31.390 --> 49:33.870]  Yeah, I think that's exactly it.
[49:34.130 --> 49:35.290]  I'm struggling with that too.
[49:35.410 --> 49:41.770]  I have to catch myself and I'm trying to say she and just because she wants it and that's it.
[49:41.970 --> 49:43.150]  Exactly, exactly.
[49:43.590 --> 49:50.650]  Rose, thank you so much and thanks for all the courage you've shown and for telling people about the trial and the case and you've opened up a lot of eyes.
[49:50.910 --> 49:51.430]  Thank you.
[49:51.610 --> 49:51.850]  All right.
[49:52.030 --> 49:52.470]  All right.
[49:52.710 --> 50:00.010]  Let's take another phone call and let's hope that we don't get a horrible sound every time that we take a second call on this.
[50:00.690 --> 50:01.650]  Let's try it here.
[50:01.770 --> 50:02.130]  Good evening.
[50:02.350 --> 50:03.350]  You're on Off the Hook.
[50:03.350 --> 50:04.330]  Oh, hi.
[50:04.750 --> 50:08.030]  Well, I wanted to congratulate you on a fantastic program.
[50:08.250 --> 50:08.530]  Thank you.
[50:08.610 --> 50:11.310]  Please speak into your receiver and a little bit louder and turn down your radio.
[50:11.470 --> 50:11.690]  Thank you.
[50:12.150 --> 50:13.370]  Yeah, I'll turn out the radio.
[50:13.470 --> 50:14.990]  It will take me about 10 seconds.
[50:15.110 --> 50:15.590]  I'll be right back.
[50:15.850 --> 50:16.430]  10 seconds.
[50:16.610 --> 50:18.290]  Why do people sit so far away from their radios?
[50:18.350 --> 50:19.090]  I don't understand that.
[50:19.190 --> 50:19.910]  Very good question.
[50:20.010 --> 50:20.550]  Yeah, all right.
[50:20.690 --> 50:23.030]  Again, phone number 212-650-5782.
[50:23.790 --> 50:24.450]  Are you back?
[50:24.710 --> 50:25.490]  Yes, I'm here.
[50:25.590 --> 50:26.110]  Okay, go ahead.
[50:26.310 --> 50:31.830]  Well, thanks for having that media debate that really needs to take place at times like this.
[50:32.070 --> 50:40.950]  I don't mean to harp too much about it, but you really make me feel like WBAI is necessary, which I must say that I do not feel all the time.
[50:41.110 --> 50:51.570]  But it's the first time I heard of the presumed attack on the New York Times as a PSYOP in preparation for an attack, and it's a very acute observation.
[50:52.570 --> 50:54.210]  And you didn't say that.
[50:54.210 --> 50:58.490]  I constructed that, but it was pretty clear where the conversation was going.
[50:58.490 --> 51:18.190]  And the other thing is, you know, you must be careful about being a victim of that yourself because, you know, this climate, the conversation that followed, especially one comment, one guy was commenting like he was being ready to be recruited.
[51:18.870 --> 51:20.770]  I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
[51:21.150 --> 51:27.170]  But, you know, it's good that there should be different voices saying different things.
[51:27.170 --> 51:32.810]  But at the same time, you know, it's two-folds.
[51:32.870 --> 51:36.350]  One is, it's wrong to spy on the UN, period.
[51:37.110 --> 51:51.710]  And two, this is not a casual outing of this story because it's obviously being used to distract the public's attention from the spying that the government has been perpetrating to the damages of citizens.
[51:52.130 --> 51:54.090]  And that must not be forgotten.
[51:54.790 --> 51:57.610]  I will hang up and listen to the comments of other people.
[51:57.770 --> 51:58.270]  Thank you so much.
[51:58.270 --> 52:00.410]  Okay, thanks for your phone call there.
[52:00.890 --> 52:04.030]  And again, the phone number 212-650-5782.
[52:05.550 --> 52:07.230]  And do we have another call coming in?
[52:07.310 --> 52:07.990]  We do.
[52:08.190 --> 52:09.310]  Okay, let's take this one.
[52:09.390 --> 52:09.750]  Good evening.
[52:09.910 --> 52:10.850]  You're on off the hook.
[52:12.090 --> 52:12.910]  Speak up, please.
[52:14.410 --> 52:17.750]  Okay, I'm sorry, but if you don't speak up, we can't...
[52:17.750 --> 52:19.470]  Okay, the phone is malfunctioned.
[52:19.510 --> 52:21.110]  Anybody want to say anything while I fix the phone?
[52:21.670 --> 52:22.070]  Sure.
[52:22.490 --> 52:30.170]  You know, in response to the last caller about being recruited, you just have to be careful because you never know who's already been recruited.
[52:30.290 --> 52:31.190]  The phone is fixed, by the way.
[52:31.350 --> 52:32.510]  Okay, so the phone's fixed.
[52:32.610 --> 52:32.750]  Yeah.
[52:33.090 --> 52:34.050]  And we have a phone call.
[52:35.130 --> 52:35.690]  Oh, boy.
[52:35.770 --> 52:36.010]  Good evening.
[52:36.130 --> 52:37.030]  You're on off the hook.
[52:37.710 --> 52:38.290]  Yeah, hi.
[52:38.490 --> 52:45.790]  I was still upset with the long sentence they're giving our wonderful manly.
[52:46.990 --> 52:48.070]  Turn down your radio, please.
[52:48.110 --> 52:48.790]  That's all I ask.
[52:49.090 --> 52:50.370]  Oh, I have no radio on.
[52:50.550 --> 52:51.390]  Oh, yeah, I hear voices.
[52:51.550 --> 52:52.030]  Okay, never mind.
[52:52.690 --> 52:55.990]  Yeah, and also let's keep encouraging him.
[52:56.150 --> 52:59.750]  He doesn't deserve to stay in jail that long, and it's just outrageous.
[53:00.430 --> 53:09.050]  He deserves an award the way WikiLeaks said, a Nobel Prize for what he did rather than to be jailed and mistreated.
[53:09.790 --> 53:10.930]  Okay, thanks for your opinion.
[53:10.990 --> 53:11.170]  Right.
[53:11.530 --> 53:11.910]  All right.
[53:12.250 --> 53:18.110]  And we only have a couple minutes left, so if there's something that you'd like to add to the conversation, please call us now.
[53:18.290 --> 53:18.770]  Good evening.
[53:18.770 --> 53:19.770]  You're on Off the Hook?
[53:20.270 --> 53:20.930]  Yes, hello.
[53:21.290 --> 53:22.250]  It's Tom from the Bronx.
[53:22.410 --> 53:23.130]  Yes, it is.
[53:23.170 --> 53:23.530]  How you doing?
[53:23.710 --> 53:30.450]  I'd like to say that Snowden, I heard you mention Snowden, I thought he was going to stay in Russia.
[53:30.610 --> 53:31.650]  Wasn't he going to stay in Russia?
[53:31.650 --> 53:32.850]  Oh, he is staying in Russia.
[53:32.870 --> 53:35.070]  If he knows what's good for him, I think that's where he's going to stay.
[53:35.090 --> 53:37.850]  What was this thing about him coming to Cuba?
[53:37.950 --> 53:51.030]  That was originally what the plan was to go, I believe, to Venezuela through Cuba, and that flight for some reason didn't happen, and according to that Russian newspaper, the reason it didn't happen was because Cuba kowtowed to United States pressure,
[53:51.250 --> 53:53.930]  something that Fidel Castro today vehemently denied.
[53:53.930 --> 53:57.090]  I think that Cuba may have been afraid the U.S.
[53:57.170 --> 53:58.310]  would invade them, too.
[53:59.230 --> 54:06.150]  That, you know, I believe a lot of things, but I somehow don't think that the United States would invade Cuba over that, but who knows?
[54:06.170 --> 54:06.630]  I don't know.
[54:06.810 --> 54:10.550]  I mean, there may be a paranoia that hit Cuba, you know.
[54:10.690 --> 54:11.710]  Anything's possible, I suppose.
[54:11.930 --> 54:12.750]  Any other thoughts?
[54:14.190 --> 54:27.790]  I think that Snowden did a wonderful thing when he dropped the beans, and everybody else who dropped the beans, it's very good for the public here.
[54:27.950 --> 54:36.530]  Well, we were taught to tell the truth when we were growing up, and I think sometimes the truth might be inconvenient, might hurt, but it's usually the best policy.
[54:36.670 --> 54:43.530]  Thanks for your call, and hopefully we can squeeze one or two more phone calls in in the couple of minutes that we have left.
[54:43.590 --> 54:47.590]  The phone number 212-650-5782.
[54:48.010 --> 54:49.150]  Let's take this call over here.
[54:49.230 --> 54:49.510]  Good evening.
[54:49.650 --> 54:50.510]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:51.730 --> 54:52.550]  Speak up, please.
[54:53.070 --> 54:53.390]  Hello.
[54:53.530 --> 54:54.630]  Hi, what's on your mind?
[54:55.810 --> 54:57.570]  I'd like to say that...
[54:59.930 --> 55:00.670]  Yes, please.
[55:01.250 --> 55:02.010]  Yes, I'm sorry.
[55:02.470 --> 55:09.530]  Bradley, excuse me, Chelsea Manning, he, it really was bad timing, like the other caller said.
[55:09.810 --> 55:16.130]  Now he's being heckled, and also, I don't think the torture period is over for him.
[55:16.130 --> 55:22.230]  I think when he goes to prison, they're going to continue to torture him and treat him terribly.
[55:22.970 --> 55:33.870]  Well, you know, the way I see it, this request happening right now, it's a very transitional period in many ways.
[55:34.090 --> 55:39.390]  Now, had the request been made before the trial, I think people would say that was even a worse period to do it in.
[55:39.530 --> 55:40.810]  But it's really, it's not about that.
[55:40.870 --> 55:42.790]  It's not about when the best period is.
[55:42.890 --> 55:45.750]  It's about one person's request, whenever they make that request.
[55:45.910 --> 55:48.330]  And I just think that we need to honor that.
[55:48.890 --> 55:55.470]  You know, one important piece of information here is that, you know, the actual sentencing aspect isn't entirely over.
[55:55.670 --> 56:00.110]  He made this announcement during the clemency process as well.
[56:00.170 --> 56:10.810]  We cannot forget that he is going to submit some kind of petition, a clemency petition to the convening authority, the general of the base, which referred the court-martial charges, and there is the possibility that the sentence can be reduced.
[56:11.370 --> 56:29.010]  He, she, making this revelation at this point, either means, or actually means that she is, number one, very, very brave in what she's about to face and what she has done, and number two, that this probably will not affect the clemency process because there's no hope there anyway.
[56:29.330 --> 56:29.630]  Mike?
[56:30.170 --> 56:35.270]  Yeah, I just don't think it's really up to us when Chelsea Manning decides to make these statements.
[56:36.370 --> 56:41.990]  As nice people, most of our listeners I think are nice people, we should just, you know, do as she asks.
[56:42.190 --> 56:44.750]  It's not that hard, I don't think, to change pronouns.
[56:45.050 --> 56:48.450]  Maybe I'm used to people who change at least their names all the time.
[56:50.470 --> 56:58.250]  So, you know, there's not going to be a good time in her life for the next decades, even if she's released from prison.
[56:58.530 --> 57:00.250]  So, sure, now, why not?
[57:00.670 --> 57:13.250]  Think of it this way, if there's one thing you can do to help relieve the pain even a little bit, if using a pronoun in a way that Chelsea Manning requests, how hard is it to do that?
[57:13.410 --> 57:15.270]  Knowing that that helps a little bit.
[57:15.510 --> 57:21.330]  It helps relieve this suffering that she'll be enduring for a while, hopefully not too long.
[57:21.490 --> 57:27.670]  But that's up to public pressure and something that we'll have to continue talking about in weeks ahead.
[57:27.910 --> 57:30.770]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[57:30.910 --> 57:31.690]  We'd love to hear from you.
[57:31.910 --> 57:32.970]  We're out of time for tonight.
[57:33.110 --> 57:34.330]  Stay tuned for the Personal Computer Show.
[57:34.510 --> 57:40.870]  We'll be back again next week talking about, oh, I don't know, maybe a new war or whatever other NSA revelations have happened.
[57:41.090 --> 57:42.310]  Perhaps new websites will be hacked.
[57:42.450 --> 57:42.890]  Who knows?
[57:44.050 --> 57:46.550]  Hey, listening to WBAI New York, Emmanuel for Off The Hook.
[57:46.690 --> 57:47.170]  See you next week.
[57:47.290 --> 57:47.410]  Good night.
[58:57.500 --> 58:59.580]  We'll be right back.
[58:59.580 --> 59:02.400]  There's nothing in life that I can achieve.
[59:02.640 --> 59:04.680]  There's nothing in life that...
[01:00:47.670 --> 01:00:49.330]  And it is 8 p.m.
[01:00:49.850 --> 01:00:53.150]  You're tuned to listener-sponsored, non-commercial, WBAI New York.