[00:00.000 --> 00:03.260]  ...on every Sunday in December starting at 1 p.m.
[00:03.600 --> 00:11.200]  Again, WBAI's Community Advisory Board will be holding meetings at 388 Atlantic Avenue at 1 p.m.
[00:11.420 --> 00:20.720]  on each Sunday in December at the WBAI office at 388 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn starting at 1 p.m.
[00:20.940 --> 00:23.860]  Expect the work and help with the station needs.
[00:24.040 --> 00:25.980]  With your help, we will get through this.
[00:26.140 --> 00:29.560]  All are welcome and invited to come and participate.
[00:34.440 --> 00:38.240]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:38.460 --> 00:44.620]  Time is just about 7 o'clock, which means it's time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:08.150 --> 01:10.990]  I hope that's understood, but make me know!
[02:38.570 --> 02:39.830]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:39.950 --> 02:41.530]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:41.610 --> 02:44.990]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:45.350 --> 02:47.190]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:47.430 --> 02:47.790]  Hi there.
[02:48.170 --> 02:48.590]  Alex.
[02:49.030 --> 02:49.370]  Good evening.
[02:49.670 --> 02:50.130]  Rob T.
[02:50.290 --> 02:50.730]  Firefly.
[02:51.010 --> 02:51.350]  Good evening.
[02:51.930 --> 02:52.950]  And Bernie S.
[02:54.610 --> 02:54.930]  No.
[02:56.430 --> 02:58.630]  No, that's the sound that Bernie S.
[02:58.790 --> 03:00.090]  is going to be making tonight because Bernie S.
[03:00.130 --> 03:00.950]  is not with us tonight.
[03:02.010 --> 03:04.130]  We might turn him down if he's going to do that for an hour.
[03:04.130 --> 03:06.070]  No, I insist that he stay for the whole program.
[03:07.490 --> 03:10.270]  I mean, I'd go hang up on him, but I don't think it'll help.
[03:10.270 --> 03:11.070]  You would do that, wouldn't you?
[03:11.090 --> 03:11.370]  Yeah, I would.
[03:11.450 --> 03:11.970]  You would do that.
[03:12.970 --> 03:14.690]  Yes, Bernie won't be with us tonight.
[03:15.410 --> 03:18.210]  And in fact, we're supposed to have a special guest with us right now.
[03:18.530 --> 03:20.030]  Do you know who this special guest is, Mike?
[03:20.030 --> 03:22.010]  He is in the neighborhood.
[03:22.750 --> 03:25.530]  The building we're in, the North Academic Center...
[03:25.530 --> 03:29.590]  I see somebody running down looking at a monitor with 16 different pictures on it.
[03:30.290 --> 03:31.210]  Might that be him?
[03:31.350 --> 03:33.210]  I can go to the front door and check.
[03:33.790 --> 03:36.730]  Oh, we just broke the glass on the door to get in.
[03:37.010 --> 03:37.610]  There you go.
[03:37.810 --> 03:38.750]  That's using initiative.
[03:38.890 --> 03:39.030]  Okay.
[03:39.890 --> 03:41.210]  Why don't you...
[03:41.210 --> 03:44.550]  Yeah, if you could get in the middle of that whole thing with the security guard, that would be cool.
[03:44.750 --> 03:45.970]  And let's get him through.
[03:46.250 --> 03:47.850]  Okay, so we have a special guest coming here.
[03:48.350 --> 03:49.170]  Oh, and Bernie's left us.
[03:49.170 --> 03:51.610]  All right, so Bernie, hopefully we'll be back next week.
[03:52.430 --> 03:53.890]  I guess you guys won't be here next week.
[03:54.610 --> 03:55.450]  I will not.
[03:55.650 --> 03:56.410]  I will be out of town.
[03:56.530 --> 03:57.210]  You'll be out of town.
[03:57.310 --> 03:58.250]  That's true, me as well.
[03:58.330 --> 03:58.850]  You'll be out of town.
[03:58.970 --> 03:59.070]  What?
[03:59.150 --> 04:02.230]  Everybody leaves town over Christmas, I guess.
[04:03.010 --> 04:03.710]  I'm going to be here.
[04:03.890 --> 04:04.690]  I'm going to be here.
[04:05.450 --> 04:07.630]  I think I might be flying the ship solo.
[04:08.430 --> 04:09.090]  Which, you know what?
[04:09.090 --> 04:09.930]  It's going to be kind of cool.
[04:10.110 --> 04:10.710]  It's going to be kind of cool.
[04:10.790 --> 04:13.350]  I don't think I've done a show on my own forever.
[04:14.930 --> 04:16.630]  And, well, Mike, you won't be here either, will you?
[04:17.270 --> 04:18.210]  When won't I be here?
[04:19.330 --> 04:20.850]  See, to the listeners, you were here the whole time.
[04:20.870 --> 04:21.770]  You actually went down the hallway.
[04:21.950 --> 04:23.230]  I said I was going to go down the hallway.
[04:23.230 --> 04:24.090]  I told the listeners.
[04:24.130 --> 04:25.690]  Yeah, but listeners tune out after 10 seconds.
[04:26.470 --> 04:28.230]  So we were talking about where people are going to be next week.
[04:28.290 --> 04:28.910]  You won't be here either.
[04:28.970 --> 04:29.690]  You'll be at CCC.
[04:30.050 --> 04:32.090]  Well, next week at this time, I'll be on an airplane.
[04:32.550 --> 04:33.110]  Oh, really?
[04:33.290 --> 04:33.450]  Yeah.
[04:33.650 --> 04:33.870]  Okay.
[04:34.090 --> 04:34.390]  All right.
[04:34.550 --> 04:36.350]  So you won't be calling in, I guess.
[04:36.530 --> 04:36.670]  No.
[04:36.830 --> 04:40.210]  Unless you really want to test out the new cell phone regulations.
[04:40.210 --> 04:42.110]  I mean, I'll be on an airplane over the Atlantic.
[04:42.130 --> 04:46.030]  I'm pretty sure no mobile phones will work.
[04:46.030 --> 04:49.830]  And I hope so, because I don't want to hear my other passengers liking either.
[04:50.110 --> 04:50.250]  Okay.
[04:50.730 --> 04:51.370]  Well, cool.
[04:51.630 --> 04:56.910]  And our special guest has arrived through all the wreckage and mayhem of getting into the station.
[04:57.170 --> 04:58.930]  And Mitch Altman, welcome.
[04:59.350 --> 04:59.650]  Hello.
[05:00.230 --> 05:02.470]  You're going to CCC as well, I'd take it.
[05:02.570 --> 05:02.790]  I am.
[05:02.850 --> 05:03.850]  I'm leaving on Friday.
[05:04.150 --> 05:05.070]  This Friday coming up.
[05:05.070 --> 05:08.910]  Yeah, because I'm one of the organizers this year, so I'm helping set up.
[05:09.130 --> 05:09.390]  Uh-huh.
[05:09.930 --> 05:10.290]  Wow.
[05:10.850 --> 05:11.650]  Well, that's cool.
[05:11.730 --> 05:15.750]  So tell us what's involved in setting up something as massive as CCC, because it is pretty massive.
[05:16.030 --> 05:18.210]  Oh, it is, but it's only about 10,000 people.
[05:18.590 --> 05:20.210]  Only about 10,000 people?
[05:20.490 --> 05:29.010]  And the hardware hacking area, which I'm setting up, is about 2,000 square meters, I'm told, which is about 20,000 square feet for the metric impaired.
[05:29.270 --> 05:33.290]  And it's quite huge, and that's just a little corner of the whole conference.
[05:33.550 --> 05:36.710]  For the Americans in the audience, how much is that in football fields?
[05:39.030 --> 05:43.110]  I think that's too much for my little rushed brain at the moment.
[05:43.330 --> 05:45.550]  Aren't football fields and soccer fields about the same size anyway?
[05:46.030 --> 05:46.570]  I don't know.
[05:46.730 --> 05:49.090]  Yeah, 100 meters, 100 yards, it's about the same.
[05:49.090 --> 05:52.330]  And they're both called football, so we can just use that phrase from this point on.
[05:52.530 --> 05:56.130]  Yeah, and I don't know anything about either of them, except they have these things that people kick.
[05:56.330 --> 05:57.890]  So how did it get so huge?
[05:58.030 --> 06:03.690]  I mean, last time I went there, I was in Berlin, it was maybe 3,000, 3,500.
[06:03.690 --> 06:05.470]  Now it's tripled in size.
[06:05.670 --> 06:14.370]  I kind of like that hope stays in the 2,000, 3,000 level, because it might get too big.
[06:14.470 --> 06:15.470]  Do you think that's possible?
[06:15.690 --> 06:16.730]  Yeah, it's certainly possible.
[06:16.890 --> 06:19.050]  This has been a bunch of discussion through the years.
[06:19.410 --> 06:26.210]  As the whole hacker scene around the world has grown, a lot of hackerspaces have outgrown their capacity.
[06:26.210 --> 06:32.810]  A lot of conferences have gotten too big to fit in the venue that they had.
[06:33.030 --> 06:35.670]  This has certainly happened with CCC events.
[06:36.010 --> 06:45.990]  The Congress, the German word for conference, annual at the end of December every year, used to be in Berlin at a place that held 3,500 people, a really beautiful place.
[06:45.990 --> 06:51.210]  It was set up perfectly through the years in cooperation with the people who run the place.
[06:51.210 --> 07:00.290]  But they had to actually request that people not come, and that they simply tune in via a satellite location.
[07:00.390 --> 07:01.830]  Yeah, like live streaming.
[07:02.010 --> 07:02.310]  Live streaming.
[07:02.330 --> 07:07.810]  But it's not the same, because I hardly go to any talks during these things, and I have a fantastic time.
[07:07.950 --> 07:17.790]  The highlight pretty much of my year, and it's just from all the amazingly cool people there, sharing what they do, and you can learn from them and meet a whole bunch of new geeky friends.
[07:17.790 --> 07:25.190]  But two years ago, they sold out in three minutes, the 3,500 tickets, as soon as they went online.
[07:25.310 --> 07:33.550]  So it was clear we had to either somehow limit the number of people who come in, which is pretty tricky, or go to a bigger place.
[07:33.550 --> 07:38.710]  So we opted for a bigger place and went to Hamburg, where there's a place that fits 10,000 people.
[07:39.230 --> 07:45.290]  Yeah, I suppose if we really tried, we could probably get there as well.
[07:45.290 --> 07:51.670]  But I'm not sure that's the road I want to go down, as far as getting that massive amount of people crammed into a place.
[07:51.750 --> 07:53.770]  I mean, first of all, a place in New York would be very hard to find.
[07:53.790 --> 07:59.690]  You'd have to go to something massive like Javits, and then you lose the whole coolness effect that Hope has.
[07:59.930 --> 08:00.270]  Yeah, it would be kind of sterile.
[08:00.470 --> 08:01.310]  Yeah, but we did.
[08:01.350 --> 08:11.110]  We did have a ticket sale last week that sold out in one minute, but it was only 100 tickets, but still, you know, one minute and bang, they were all gone, because we had a discounted rate.
[08:12.510 --> 08:13.410]  I know it's going to...
[08:13.410 --> 08:14.770]  it'll go crazy in January when we...
[08:14.770 --> 08:15.630]  Oh, it definitely will.
[08:15.670 --> 08:18.670]  And we sold out, what, in three minutes, the first round of pre-sales?
[08:18.770 --> 08:22.810]  Yeah, we had two pre-sales, and three minutes for the first one, and the second one, one minute.
[08:22.910 --> 08:24.650]  So yeah, you know, it could happen.
[08:25.930 --> 08:31.170]  But, you know, we want to be as open as possible, and hopefully have as many people able to make it as possible.
[08:31.810 --> 08:35.710]  Does that mean that at CCC, they won't have tickets at the door?
[08:35.930 --> 08:36.430]  They will.
[08:36.730 --> 08:37.130]  They will, okay.
[08:37.210 --> 08:38.270]  So how did they sell out then?
[08:38.550 --> 08:42.250]  Last year, they sold out of 7,000 tickets, but during the event.
[08:42.390 --> 08:42.830]  I see, okay.
[08:42.910 --> 08:48.870]  Two years ago, it sold out online in three minutes for 3,500, but last year, we opened it up for 7,000, and it sold out.
[08:49.030 --> 08:51.090]  So maybe it'll even sell out this year, we'll see.
[08:51.330 --> 08:51.550]  Okay.
[08:51.550 --> 09:01.610]  But it doesn't feel so huge, because the place is kind of labyrinthine, a 3D labyrinth, with mazes and nooks and crannies, even with huge spaces like the hardware hacking area.
[09:02.050 --> 09:09.830]  Each time you go into a space, it feels like a place of its own, and there are all these people there who are warm and open and friendly.
[09:10.090 --> 09:15.750]  And so it doesn't feel huge and oppressive like the Javits Center would probably be.
[09:15.810 --> 09:16.310]  Yeah, yeah.
[09:16.750 --> 09:17.670]  Well, that's cool.
[09:17.670 --> 09:22.630]  And I do recommend people, if they are thinking of going, that they make their way over there to Hamburg.
[09:22.790 --> 09:25.330]  Not Berlin this year, it's in Hamburg, its new home.
[09:26.310 --> 09:28.190]  And I hope to make it one of these years.
[09:29.050 --> 09:33.390]  I wanted to make it this year, but there's too many projects, too many things to do, you know?
[09:33.650 --> 09:36.870]  And plus, somebody's got to do the show back here, and apparently I'm going to be the only one.
[09:36.970 --> 09:39.490]  So that's going to be interesting too.
[09:40.490 --> 09:41.470]  Well, I can call in.
[09:41.810 --> 09:42.010]  Yeah.
[09:42.210 --> 09:43.910]  Maybe we'll just make a bunch of phone calls next week.
[09:43.950 --> 09:44.330]  Who knows?
[09:45.730 --> 09:49.810]  As long as we're talking about what's going to happen next week, how about in two weeks, which is New Year's Day?
[09:50.230 --> 09:51.450]  Are you going to be back by then?
[09:52.290 --> 09:53.830]  I will be in the United States.
[09:53.970 --> 09:54.310]  Oh, you will?
[09:54.310 --> 09:54.590]  Yeah.
[09:55.010 --> 09:56.030]  Well, does that mean you'll be here?
[09:56.650 --> 09:57.730]  We'll talk after the show.
[09:58.590 --> 10:00.290]  You know, listeners kind of are curious, too.
[10:00.610 --> 10:01.230]  How about you, Alex?
[10:01.990 --> 10:05.150]  I will actually... I'll still be out of town, as a matter of fact.
[10:05.170 --> 10:05.270]  Okay.
[10:05.410 --> 10:05.590]  All right.
[10:05.670 --> 10:05.850]  Rob?
[10:06.290 --> 10:10.570]  I will be just getting back, so I don't know how the time's going to line up.
[10:10.570 --> 10:10.590]  Okay.
[10:10.590 --> 10:12.170]  So New Year's is anybody's guess, apparently.
[10:12.450 --> 10:14.670]  And I'll be avoiding the fireworks in Berlin.
[10:15.630 --> 10:16.850]  Yeah, those are fun, aren't they?
[10:17.370 --> 10:21.630]  By January 1st, I think, you know, you'll be safe.
[10:22.910 --> 10:24.730]  But that's one in the morning there.
[10:25.090 --> 10:29.030]  No, no, but it will be January 2nd, one in the morning, by the time we're on.
[10:29.110 --> 10:29.430]  That's true.
[10:29.530 --> 10:29.830]  We're on January 1st.
[10:29.830 --> 10:30.290]  Ah, okay.
[10:30.450 --> 10:33.110]  Oh, it'll totally be safe, because everyone will just be having a hangover.
[10:33.250 --> 10:35.990]  Yeah, and the whole place is cleaned up in, like, a day over in Germany.
[10:35.990 --> 10:39.810]  And we don't even have fireworks here for New Year's, not really, not very many places.
[10:40.510 --> 10:41.450]  So it's very different.
[10:42.550 --> 10:44.470]  Okay, we have a lot of news to go over.
[10:44.570 --> 10:51.230]  We weren't on last week, because actually last week was a special fundraising week.
[10:51.650 --> 10:52.190]  Guess what?
[10:52.250 --> 10:55.730]  This week is also a fundraising week, and we are doing some fundraising this week as well.
[10:56.290 --> 11:05.970]  Mitch has been generous enough to offer trip glasses as a premium for anybody calling 212-209-2950 and pledging $50.
[11:06.410 --> 11:13.690]  That's all we are asking, $50, 212-209-2950, and you will get a pair of trip glasses.
[11:13.790 --> 11:14.910]  Did anyone bring trip glasses?
[11:15.830 --> 11:16.310]  No?
[11:16.630 --> 11:18.350]  Wait, we have our old phone number back?
[11:18.490 --> 11:19.270]  We have our old phone number back.
[11:19.270 --> 11:19.630]  It's right there.
[11:19.630 --> 11:20.590]  Sure, yeah, yeah.
[11:21.570 --> 11:27.890]  So basically, okay, so I wanted to have trip glasses on while I was describing them.
[11:27.930 --> 11:29.270]  We don't have a single pair in the...
[11:29.270 --> 11:31.670]  All right, so someone's going to have to describe what it's like then.
[11:32.610 --> 11:34.570]  I could describe it, but I'll let someone else do it.
[11:34.570 --> 11:37.010]  Well, I think you're the best qualified, having designed them.
[11:37.410 --> 11:43.210]  Yeah, and I was just in the warehouse replacing all the batteries in the ones I have left, so they all work.
[11:43.910 --> 12:00.530]  There are these glasses which have super trippy patterns on the front because presentation is important, but they blink lights and present sound at a sequence of meditation brainwave frequencies, a 14-minute long sequence.
[12:00.730 --> 12:06.130]  And if it works for you, you'll follow along and have a really nice 14-minute meditation.
[12:06.810 --> 12:15.690]  But even if that doesn't work well for you, and it does work for a majority of people, you will hallucinate really cool, beautiful colors and patterns from your imagination.
[12:16.170 --> 12:20.270]  And since most people seem to like hallucinating, that's kind of what makes it really fun.
[12:20.270 --> 12:20.490]  Okay.
[12:20.590 --> 12:24.610]  On this program, we've given away WikiLeaks documents.
[12:24.610 --> 12:27.010]  We've given away the Edward Snowden leak documents.
[12:27.330 --> 12:29.970]  And now we're giving away hallucinogenics?
[12:30.050 --> 12:30.650]  Is that what we're doing?
[12:30.950 --> 12:31.770]  Yeah, free trips.
[12:31.970 --> 12:34.430]  But they're legal, totally legal, no drugs.
[12:34.430 --> 12:35.730]  You don't have to come down.
[12:36.430 --> 12:37.910]  Yeah, it's kind of nice.
[12:37.950 --> 12:41.890]  But if you do want to enhance it, that's totally your option.
[12:42.610 --> 12:42.950]  Interesting.
[12:43.110 --> 12:43.270]  Okay.
[12:43.410 --> 12:43.630]  Alex?
[12:43.650 --> 12:45.070]  Let me ask you a question, Mitch.
[12:45.170 --> 12:46.510]  You mentioned these blinking lights and things.
[12:46.610 --> 12:51.190]  Do you have your eyes open when you put the glasses on, or do you close them to trip?
[12:51.330 --> 12:53.470]  It doesn't work too well if your eyes are open.
[12:53.710 --> 13:00.550]  You have to have them closed because your field of vision is totally filled up with the blinking lights with your eyes closed.
[13:01.290 --> 13:02.050]  Very interesting.
[13:02.050 --> 13:03.270]  It is interesting.
[13:03.430 --> 13:07.110]  And most people say something like, wow, when they're wearing them.
[13:07.290 --> 13:09.270]  Well, they say all kinds of things that we probably can't say on the radio.
[13:09.270 --> 13:14.390]  But it's definitely something else, something you don't see every day.
[13:14.470 --> 13:16.990]  And what better way to support the radio station?
[13:17.570 --> 13:21.870]  This is our special holiday fun drive because we ran out of seasons.
[13:21.890 --> 13:23.090]  It's not the winter drive.
[13:23.210 --> 13:24.570]  It's not the spring, summer, or fall.
[13:24.570 --> 13:27.970]  This is the holiday drive.
[13:28.530 --> 13:34.670]  It's a special drive that we have sometimes in December when things are particularly in peril.
[13:34.890 --> 13:38.210]  And as you know, this year has been a real rollercoaster ride for WBAI.
[13:38.770 --> 13:45.110]  Our future is still kind of unwritten, but you can help ride it by giving a call to 212-209-2950.
[13:46.730 --> 13:48.210]  And we've seen a lot of changes.
[13:48.350 --> 13:49.370]  We've moved to Harlem this year.
[13:50.670 --> 13:54.370]  We've gotten a new space in Brooklyn that we hope to move into next year.
[13:55.290 --> 13:58.490]  We are becoming more and more self-sufficient with your help.
[13:58.490 --> 14:01.530]  And we have trimmed back tremendously.
[14:02.910 --> 14:04.150]  And we hope to rebuild.
[14:04.290 --> 14:13.310]  We hope to reconstruct things for this new future that we have in front of us with all kinds of changing dynamics in the media world.
[14:13.610 --> 14:15.150]  212-209-2950.
[14:15.430 --> 14:17.650]  You can also become a BAI buddy.
[14:17.790 --> 14:23.150]  What that means is you pledge a certain amount per month, and it gets deducted from your credit card.
[14:24.290 --> 14:30.290]  And basically, that helps us out a lot because that's something that we basically get a payment every month of a small amount.
[14:30.410 --> 14:36.910]  Something like $10, $5, $10, whatever it is you decide you want to pledge for the BAI buddy system.
[14:37.530 --> 14:41.610]  Or you can get the special trip glasses, which we're only offering here tonight.
[14:42.030 --> 14:43.510]  212-209-2950.
[14:43.510 --> 14:45.030]  A pledge of $50 gets you those.
[14:46.090 --> 14:49.830]  I should also mention that you can call 516...
[14:49.830 --> 14:50.630]  I mean, rather...
[14:50.630 --> 14:51.230]  I'm sorry.
[14:51.370 --> 14:55.670]  You can call 212-209-2950, our comfortable old phone number.
[14:55.750 --> 14:56.210]  The old phone number.
[14:56.230 --> 14:58.010]  And get hold of the trip glasses now.
[14:58.210 --> 15:02.310]  There are also a whole bunch of nice Pacifica premiums if you'd rather have something else.
[15:02.670 --> 15:08.750]  And you can see those all on give2, the numeral2, wbai.org.
[15:09.130 --> 15:11.710]  And you can follow the links to support your favorite show.
[15:11.710 --> 15:14.990]  We'd like you to choose off the hook on that menu for obvious reasons.
[15:16.290 --> 15:19.590]  And you can get stuff while we're on the air.
[15:19.650 --> 15:20.970]  You can get them after we're off the air.
[15:21.390 --> 15:23.330]  You can support us in any way you can.
[15:23.550 --> 15:26.530]  So give us a call, 212-209-2950.
[15:26.890 --> 15:30.470]  Or go to give, the numeral2, wbai.org.
[15:30.850 --> 15:33.090]  Yeah, they have this thing called Pacifica on a Stick.
[15:33.130 --> 15:35.430]  It's the best of WBAI thumb drive.
[15:36.050 --> 15:38.310]  That's a gift for new members who are pledging $50.
[15:38.310 --> 15:41.810]  There's an 8-gig thumb drive with 100 different speakers on it.
[15:42.050 --> 15:46.330]  And you get that plus the best of WBAI thumb drive for a pledge of $180.
[15:46.850 --> 15:51.570]  But if you become a BAI buddy, you can get both for just $10 or more per month.
[15:51.970 --> 15:55.030]  So that's another reason to pledge for the BAI buddy.
[15:55.390 --> 15:57.250]  212-209-2950.
[15:58.510 --> 16:04.550]  And 99.5 FM will continue to be here for you over the next few years, we certainly hope.
[16:05.110 --> 16:08.450]  Radio history here in New York has been something else.
[16:08.610 --> 16:15.870]  If you go every single frequency down the dial, you'll see all kinds of format changes and one failed thing after another.
[16:16.690 --> 16:21.570]  And it's been turmoil here at WBAI because that's how radio tends to be.
[16:21.710 --> 16:31.530]  And radio that is non-commercial, where you have to raise every penny yourself, and it's not dependent on corporations or commercial entities of any sort that control your programming.
[16:31.530 --> 16:31.990]  And they do.
[16:32.110 --> 16:35.490]  If you tune down the FM dial, you'll notice that everything is crappy.
[16:35.610 --> 16:39.290]  And the reason it's crappy is because that's what commercial sponsors like.
[16:39.290 --> 16:40.170]  It's not controversial.
[16:40.750 --> 16:42.790]  It's just mindless garbage.
[16:43.690 --> 16:45.310]  And that's why you hear it everywhere.
[16:45.950 --> 16:56.330]  BAI may piss you off occasionally because we say things that are controversial or antagonistic or maybe just disagree with what we say, or you don't want to hear about that.
[16:56.450 --> 16:59.530]  But you tune in a few hours later, and all of a sudden, there's something that you do like.
[16:59.530 --> 17:09.650]  That's the nature of free speech, and that's why we've existed since 1960, which I think is longer than just about any other station on the FM dial.
[17:09.750 --> 17:16.550]  If there's a station that's been around longer, there might be one, maybe a couple, but I can't really think of any station.
[17:16.850 --> 17:25.710]  Probably not FM, since FM way back then was like weird religious things and ethnic programming and maybe a classical station.
[17:25.710 --> 17:31.570]  Well, we sort of have that now too, but there were experimental stations back then.
[17:31.990 --> 17:36.030]  Different call letters and numbers and things were thrown in because people didn't have FM radios.
[17:37.350 --> 17:45.150]  But I think if anything, maybe a station that's been around as long as we have is maybe Columbia Station, WKCR, maybe.
[17:45.150 --> 17:54.830]  So, we've referred to this in the past on the wall here as the very first WBI folio when there used to be a printed program guide before the internet.
[17:55.830 --> 18:02.410]  And it's from 1960, and it says 99.5, and then it says MC before it says FM.
[18:02.590 --> 18:02.950]  Megacycles.
[18:03.350 --> 18:03.710]  Megacycles.
[18:03.810 --> 18:04.630]  Yeah, I didn't know what that meant.
[18:04.810 --> 18:05.050]  Yes.
[18:05.210 --> 18:06.610]  It's the old word for hertz.
[18:07.430 --> 18:07.790]  Yes.
[18:07.930 --> 18:08.070]  I've got hertz.
[18:08.330 --> 18:08.610]  That's right.
[18:09.010 --> 18:09.770]  Isn't that right, Bernie?
[18:10.990 --> 18:11.590]  Oh, yeah.
[18:12.030 --> 18:12.330]  I forgot.
[18:12.890 --> 18:18.190]  Yeah, well, if Bernie were here, he would say that megacycles means basically the same thing as megahertz.
[18:18.410 --> 18:19.810]  It's just a different way of saying it.
[18:19.910 --> 18:23.290]  If you're over 60, you say megacycles, and if you're under 60, you say megahertz.
[18:23.830 --> 18:29.930]  And if you are under 30, you say that ancient, archaic way people listen to music.
[18:31.070 --> 18:31.810]  But you know what?
[18:32.370 --> 18:33.350]  We're more than music.
[18:33.530 --> 18:33.950]  We're talk.
[18:34.210 --> 18:35.270]  We're controversy.
[18:35.270 --> 18:35.930]  We're relevant.
[18:36.190 --> 18:38.810]  And that's why people around the world listen to us.
[18:38.810 --> 18:40.490]  And you can listen to us so easily.
[18:40.830 --> 18:43.090]  I've been playing with this app called TuneIn.
[18:43.230 --> 18:44.190]  You guys familiar with this at all?
[18:44.570 --> 18:58.470]  TuneIn is this amazing app that basically works on any smartphone and all kinds of different devices where basically you can select a continent, and you can select a country, then you can select a city, then you can select a frequency anywhere in the world virtually.
[18:59.110 --> 19:02.770]  And you can listen to local radio around the planet.
[19:02.950 --> 19:04.670]  And BAI is no exception to that.
[19:04.970 --> 19:08.470]  And you can be out jogging anywhere in the world.
[19:08.470 --> 19:10.110]  You can be in your car anywhere in the world.
[19:10.210 --> 19:11.110]  You can be at your house.
[19:11.430 --> 19:13.190]  You can always listen to WBAI.
[19:13.730 --> 19:15.630]  You know, I've played with that app as well.
[19:15.770 --> 19:20.030]  And there's a lot of good radio stations that you can find through it and through other means.
[19:20.170 --> 19:23.070]  But there's also an awful lot of sameness.
[19:23.270 --> 19:23.730]  Yes, absolutely.
[19:23.730 --> 19:29.350]  I mean, I've tuned in radio stations from what I think is going to be some really, like, unexpected corner of the globe.
[19:29.490 --> 19:32.770]  And I press it and they're playing, you know, bland American pop music.
[19:32.850 --> 19:37.790]  It's funny because, yeah, you go to some, like, Azerbaijan or something and you think, okay, I'm listening to a local station.
[19:37.790 --> 19:39.110]  And what you hear is Whitney Houston.
[19:39.490 --> 19:40.850]  You know, it's kind of weird.
[19:40.970 --> 19:41.750]  You weren't expecting that.
[19:42.310 --> 19:43.290]  You have to hunt around.
[19:43.390 --> 19:46.810]  But if you were actually tuning in a radio over there, that's what you'd be hearing.
[19:46.950 --> 19:47.650]  You'd be hearing that.
[19:48.090 --> 19:50.370]  You can tune in to local stations in Canada.
[19:50.510 --> 19:52.070]  I was listening to the Rock of the Rock the other day.
[19:52.730 --> 19:54.230]  You can listen to...
[19:54.230 --> 19:58.150]  There's a station in Antarctica, but I think it's just a tape loop because they always are playing the same songs.
[19:58.270 --> 19:58.830]  They never say anything.
[19:59.570 --> 20:00.650]  They're busy down there.
[20:00.730 --> 20:01.610]  I don't know what they're doing.
[20:01.630 --> 20:03.370]  I don't think there's actually a radio station there.
[20:03.890 --> 20:11.450]  It's just cool because we are now in a time where we can listen to radio of our choosing anywhere in the world at any time.
[20:12.270 --> 20:16.570]  So, yeah, you know, you can say that megacycles, megahertz is irrelevant now.
[20:16.790 --> 20:24.970]  It is and it isn't because, still, there's no substitute for actually turning on a local radio that you don't need any kind of connectivity other than power of some sort.
[20:24.970 --> 20:37.230]  And listening to local voices, if there's a catastrophe of some sort or a crisis or just local news and information you want to hear from live people, what better thing to do than to be in New York and turn on 99.5 and hear that.
[20:37.470 --> 20:43.290]  But the next best thing is, if you're not in New York, to find a way to listen and support this place as well.
[20:43.850 --> 20:46.170]  So, 212-209-2950.
[20:46.250 --> 20:51.170]  What we are offering tonight are the Magical Trip glasses that Mitch Altman has designed.
[20:51.170 --> 20:54.290]  And when were they first made, Mitch?
[20:54.910 --> 21:03.190]  Well, I wrote up a project, which was a kit that anyone could make for Make Magazine in 2007.
[21:03.490 --> 21:04.370]  It's Make No.
[21:04.490 --> 21:05.650]  10, Issue No.
[21:05.710 --> 21:05.950]  10.
[21:05.950 --> 21:09.330]  And a lot of people made them who never made anything.
[21:09.330 --> 21:10.510]  And you can still do that.
[21:10.610 --> 21:11.190]  It's really fun.
[21:11.290 --> 21:11.970]  The plans are online.
[21:11.970 --> 21:12.430]  It's free.
[21:12.570 --> 21:13.690]  Everything I do is open source.
[21:14.090 --> 21:19.470]  But since it was popular, I made a bunch of them ready-made the next year.
[21:20.610 --> 21:23.090]  And, yeah, they work exactly the same.
[21:23.190 --> 21:24.930]  And they're really nice.
[21:25.050 --> 21:25.310]  They're fun.
[21:25.450 --> 21:27.770]  I see we have calls coming in because we have this email system.
[21:27.950 --> 21:29.570]  So, please keep the calls coming in.
[21:29.630 --> 21:31.730]  212-209-2950.
[21:31.830 --> 21:38.150]  Now, Mitch, has anybody written to you saying that they had some sort of an epiphany or something when they were wearing trip glasses?
[21:38.150 --> 21:43.270]  They maybe created something or just thought differently or something more specific?
[21:44.190 --> 21:44.590]  Yeah.
[21:44.790 --> 21:47.310]  There's been a bunch of people who said they really loved it.
[21:47.310 --> 21:59.810]  A lot of people say that it helps them relax and then they can go to sleep when they're having trouble sleeping, which is why I went on to make NeuroDreamer Sleep Mask, which is after eight years just available now.
[22:00.230 --> 22:01.770]  But other than that, people...
[22:01.770 --> 22:02.710]  You know, it's meditation.
[22:02.730 --> 22:09.290]  So, the same kind of things that people come up with while meditating, they come up with this because it is meditating.
[22:09.570 --> 22:21.690]  So, there's been people who've been struggling with decisions in their lives who've told me that while tripping... meditating on trip glasses, they came up with a decision to, like, quit their job.
[22:21.750 --> 22:25.270]  And they tell me about that because I love encouraging people to quit their jobs anymore.
[22:25.550 --> 22:25.550]  Wow.
[22:26.430 --> 22:27.830]  So, they don't blame you for that.
[22:28.050 --> 22:29.070]  That's a good thing I did.
[22:29.170 --> 22:31.330]  So far, no one's blamed me for it.
[22:31.830 --> 22:34.050]  Everyone's thanked me for it thus far.
[22:34.210 --> 22:36.910]  But, you know, all of our choices are our own.
[22:37.330 --> 22:40.010]  I like encouraging people to do what they love.
[22:40.170 --> 22:43.670]  And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it's worth trying, huh?
[22:43.710 --> 22:45.830]  So, are you, like, inside the trip glasses?
[22:45.850 --> 22:49.030]  Or is it just helping people get in touch with their own ideas?
[22:49.970 --> 22:53.530]  Certainly, I am here at the moment and not inside a circuit.
[22:53.890 --> 23:01.590]  Yeah, it's just to get people, give people an opportunity to see for themselves what it is they truly want.
[23:01.950 --> 23:08.550]  So, if what they truly want is the advice you gave them previously, it's just because you're right, not because you're messing with the circuitry.
[23:08.550 --> 23:08.550]  Totally.
[23:08.990 --> 23:10.950]  Yeah, I really don't know how to do that.
[23:11.090 --> 23:18.330]  And, well, an interesting thing when I started researching about this, I came up with the idea while meditating myself, and I've gotten a lot of benefit from meditating.
[23:18.550 --> 23:19.930]  But you didn't have trip glasses when you were meditating.
[23:19.970 --> 23:20.730]  I didn't.
[23:21.330 --> 23:22.450]  Things like this have existed.
[23:22.450 --> 23:24.870]  Imagine if you did have trip glasses while you were meditating.
[23:25.090 --> 23:29.670]  Well, you wouldn't have had to invent the trip glasses, obviously, but you could have probably invented something even better.
[23:30.050 --> 23:32.070]  Well, you know, where do ideas come from?
[23:32.190 --> 23:37.570]  They come up, you know, when the idea is ready to come out, they seem to come out all sorts of places.
[23:37.890 --> 23:43.750]  It turns out a lot of people have made things sort of along the lines of trip glasses since the 1920s.
[23:44.790 --> 23:47.170]  And while researching this, I found that out.
[23:47.290 --> 23:56.950]  And I also found out that the Secret Service of the United States and the former Soviet Union tried to use this kind of technology for mind control.
[23:57.150 --> 23:58.310]  And it didn't work.
[23:58.310 --> 24:02.790]  So many years later, through Freedom of Information Act, it all becomes public.
[24:03.230 --> 24:03.650]  All right.
[24:03.730 --> 24:05.930]  We're going to ask for one more phone call to come in.
[24:06.030 --> 24:07.210]  I'm going to be watching this monitor here.
[24:07.710 --> 24:12.390]  So you can be the person to call 212-209-2950, pledge $50 for the trip glasses.
[24:12.930 --> 24:15.150]  And we'll see that show up on the screen.
[24:15.210 --> 24:19.490]  And then we can move on and talk about some NSA business that we have to get to.
[24:19.750 --> 24:21.230]  And I know people want to hear about that.
[24:21.370 --> 24:23.370]  So please show your support for the radio station.
[24:23.490 --> 24:24.270]  Keep us alive.
[24:24.370 --> 24:30.930]  Keep us going so we can be talking about this all next year and the years following that.
[24:31.210 --> 24:38.030]  212-209-2950 trip glasses are probably the coolest thing that I could imagine having.
[24:39.030 --> 24:46.590]  I've worn them and it definitely has an effect on your way of thinking, your way of relaxing and meditating.
[24:47.290 --> 24:49.690]  Mitch, do you recommend it for everybody?
[24:49.690 --> 24:50.990]  Is there an age limit?
[24:51.350 --> 24:53.310]  Maybe medical issues people should be aware of?
[24:53.710 --> 24:54.810]  Certainly no age limit.
[24:54.970 --> 24:56.230]  Kids really love them.
[24:56.350 --> 25:01.390]  But if there are kids, make sure, plural, make sure there's more than one because they tend to fight over it.
[25:01.430 --> 25:01.610]  Oh.
[25:02.010 --> 25:03.430]  It's because they really like it.
[25:03.950 --> 25:07.850]  But the one thing is they do work with blinking lights.
[25:08.130 --> 25:11.390]  So anyone who's sensitive to blinking lights probably should stay away from them.
[25:11.590 --> 25:12.130]  Right, right.
[25:12.750 --> 25:21.550]  And now if you're wearing them and you're, say, sitting on a subway or something like that, and you're wearing these glasses, you're going to look kind of spacey yourself, right?
[25:21.710 --> 25:22.630]  Well, it's very photogenic.
[25:22.630 --> 25:24.890]  So you'll probably have a few people take their phones out.
[25:26.770 --> 25:31.110]  Basically, you're wearing glasses that are flashing all different colors, LED colors and things.
[25:31.390 --> 25:41.270]  Yeah, well, these are just red, but the front of them has this really trippy pattern that I recycled from the packaging from the TV Be Gone with yellow and blue rays.
[25:41.490 --> 25:43.410]  It's very, very retro psychedelic.
[25:43.670 --> 25:44.050]  Cool.
[25:44.330 --> 25:44.450]  Yeah.
[25:44.630 --> 25:46.190]  So that's the way you look if you wear them.
[25:46.190 --> 25:47.850]  2-1-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[25:47.970 --> 25:48.770]  Waiting for that one call.
[25:48.830 --> 25:51.430]  And I know it takes a little bit of time to process and to send us the email.
[25:51.470 --> 25:59.170]  So I guess maybe we should just keep on talking about trip glasses till that magical moment happens and we actually see somebody call in and pledge for that.
[25:59.430 --> 26:04.050]  We can talk about trip glasses the whole hour if necessary, but I'd rather get to other things as well.
[26:04.470 --> 26:07.950]  But let's all try and get that one person to call in.
[26:08.230 --> 26:08.850]  Go ahead, Alex.
[26:09.290 --> 26:13.930]  You know, I was thinking about WBAI when I was on the way here today.
[26:14.170 --> 26:14.910]  I would hope so.
[26:15.110 --> 26:15.990]  How else would you get here?
[26:16.190 --> 26:17.690]  Yeah, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten here, right?
[26:18.150 --> 26:23.330]  But, and it occurred to me that I've literally been listening to this radio station for 20 years now.
[26:23.570 --> 26:23.830]  Literally?
[26:24.090 --> 26:24.270]  Yeah.
[26:24.490 --> 26:25.850]  I mean, that's a long time.
[26:26.010 --> 26:30.070]  I remember being in the station on 8th Avenue way back in the day.
[26:30.330 --> 26:31.130]  505 8th Avenue.
[26:31.150 --> 26:31.510]  That's right.
[26:31.630 --> 26:32.530]  Way, way back in the day.
[26:32.830 --> 26:41.310]  And I was thinking, I know that there's a lot of people out there that have been listening for 20 years and have probably never ever pledged.
[26:41.970 --> 26:42.870]  No, really?
[26:42.950 --> 26:43.870]  You think there's people like that?
[26:43.870 --> 26:43.990]  I can't imagine.
[26:44.150 --> 26:45.050]  I do think that there are.
[26:45.050 --> 26:46.090]  People who've spent 20 years and have never pledged?
[26:46.150 --> 26:54.250]  And I think, I would go so far as to believe that if just 1% of all of our listeners pledged, that would probably keep us on the air.
[26:54.350 --> 26:55.650]  I think probably just 1%.
[26:55.650 --> 26:55.970]  Yeah, absolutely.
[26:56.090 --> 26:57.510]  There's a lot more people out there than we think.
[26:57.630 --> 27:09.390]  And you know, they have listener ID technology coming next year where we can tell who's listening and anywhere, because the radio waves will have this extra little bit on them that can identify where they're being...
[27:09.390 --> 27:13.590]  No, I mean, you would believe that technology could exist, but no, I don't think it actually does.
[27:13.690 --> 27:14.270]  Not yet, anyway.
[27:14.750 --> 27:17.190]  But so, if you are that 1%, right?
[27:17.330 --> 27:26.530]  I mean, possibly you can't be in the 1% income bracket that Occupy Wall Street was complaining about for some period of time.
[27:26.750 --> 27:33.990]  But if you could be part of this 1% that pledges and helps WBAI, that's a pretty laudable 1%, I think, to be in.
[27:34.330 --> 27:39.290]  And I know that there's people out there, and I know that probably I'm friends with some of them who have been listening for 20 years.
[27:39.490 --> 27:41.790]  I think, you know, I might just start naming names on the radio.
[27:41.790 --> 27:46.310]  Yeah, if you're a friend of Alex and you're listening now, he's talking to you and he will name your name.
[27:46.330 --> 27:47.210]  He has a list here.
[27:47.350 --> 27:48.050]  It's pretty impressive.
[27:48.450 --> 27:48.470]  I do.
[27:48.470 --> 27:48.650]  I do.
[27:48.790 --> 27:56.150]  Some of them names that I don't think would want to be revealed as not contributing, no, we wouldn't do that.
[27:56.330 --> 27:56.790]  Would we?
[27:56.990 --> 27:57.490]  Well, we might.
[27:57.590 --> 27:58.590]  If we got desperate, who knows?
[27:58.630 --> 27:58.950]  We might.
[27:59.070 --> 28:00.030]  We could start naming names.
[28:00.170 --> 28:02.050]  212-209-2950.
[28:02.310 --> 28:04.130]  Well, Alex, you have not gotten the call.
[28:04.250 --> 28:05.410]  At least it hasn't shown up yet.
[28:05.730 --> 28:14.990]  Hopefully the call center, which is somewhere in mystery land, is piled high with calls right now, and we'll get a bunch of emails in a second.
[28:15.030 --> 28:15.890]  But who wants to try next?
[28:16.170 --> 28:16.810]  Rob, Mike?
[28:17.750 --> 28:18.270]  Go ahead.
[28:18.570 --> 28:28.850]  I mean, so I think that what's interesting about what Alex was saying is that there are people who are listening and who love listening to this radio station for 20 years.
[28:29.070 --> 28:37.930]  And if you're one of them and you haven't pledged yet and you can afford it, you should call 212-209-2950 and pledge immediately because there's really no excuse.
[28:38.110 --> 28:45.850]  But we also have listeners who are just maybe now tuning in for the first time or have been listening for a few months and haven't pledged before.
[28:46.010 --> 28:49.130]  And I want to encourage those people to pledge as well.
[28:49.810 --> 28:51.830]  212-209-2950.
[28:51.830 --> 29:01.950]  Because, you know, without this constant cycle of new listeners and new programming, the radio station would really have remained the same since 1960.
[29:02.030 --> 29:05.730]  And I think there are important ways in which we've stayed the same.
[29:05.850 --> 29:08.430]  But if we had stayed exactly the same, it would be a disaster.
[29:08.850 --> 29:10.670]  So we want to hear your ideas.
[29:10.670 --> 29:12.250]  We want to hear your voice.
[29:12.410 --> 29:15.250]  And right now we want to hear your credit card number.
[29:16.170 --> 29:17.910]  212-209-2950.
[29:17.910 --> 29:20.110]  We won't read it over the air or anything like that.
[29:20.710 --> 29:36.190]  But keep us on the air and get the trip glasses in exchange, get the WBAI on a stick in exchange, join the BAI buddy program, which is especially exciting because it means we have to spend less time asking you for money in the future.
[29:37.250 --> 29:40.690]  Any of these things, whatever you can afford, will really help us out.
[29:41.110 --> 29:44.970]  And we, you know, as we said before, this is our only source of income.
[29:45.470 --> 29:46.890]  So we hope you give us a call.
[29:46.970 --> 29:48.730]  212-209-2950.
[29:49.050 --> 29:55.090]  You know, I just saw the movie with Bob Fass about WBAI over the years.
[29:55.610 --> 29:56.610]  It is really incredible.
[29:56.730 --> 29:57.030]  It was on TV.
[29:57.170 --> 29:58.210]  It was on Channel 21.
[29:58.470 --> 30:04.630]  And I was just watching the history of this place since the beginning through the 1960s, 70s, 80s.
[30:04.850 --> 30:16.130]  It's always been right there on the front line one way or another, whether it be with artists, singers, politicians, just controversial worldly events.
[30:16.630 --> 30:18.130]  And Off the Hook is no exception.
[30:18.130 --> 30:22.330]  We have been in the forefront of so many different items, including what we want to talk about tonight.
[30:23.350 --> 30:27.810]  So it's really something to see that just through the eyes of one person.
[30:27.950 --> 30:31.110]  Bob Fass has been here forever, since the 60s.
[30:31.110 --> 30:36.470]  And he remains as relevant today as he was back then, because you always have something interesting to talk about.
[30:36.610 --> 30:43.490]  There's always something to focus upon when you have a microphone, when you have the ability to speak to people and have them speak to you.
[30:43.910 --> 30:49.050]  And that's really... I think that sums up the magic of this place more than almost anything else.
[30:49.210 --> 30:52.730]  There have been many pieces, many films that have featured WBAI in one sense or another.
[30:52.730 --> 30:55.810]  This one, though, really featured it incredibly.
[30:57.010 --> 30:58.810]  And it was inspirational to me as well.
[30:58.890 --> 31:01.410]  So hopefully a bunch of people have seen that as well.
[31:01.890 --> 31:03.970]  Oh, and we have two calls that just came in.
[31:04.070 --> 31:05.750]  So I guess I'm going to keep my promise.
[31:05.950 --> 31:07.210]  Give out the phone number one more time.
[31:07.310 --> 31:08.690]  212-209-2950.
[31:08.770 --> 31:13.150]  $50 gets you the trip glasses that Mitch is donating to the radio station.
[31:13.250 --> 31:14.510]  It doesn't cost the radio station anything.
[31:15.330 --> 31:17.510]  And there's all kinds of other options, too.
[31:17.590 --> 31:18.570]  You can be a BAI buddy.
[31:18.690 --> 31:23.910]  Just ask the nice people on the telephone what your options are, and they will be very helpful to you.
[31:23.990 --> 31:25.430]  212-209-2950.
[31:25.730 --> 31:25.870]  Okay.
[31:25.870 --> 31:39.570]  This week, Edward Snowden, I guess, was proven correct by, well, Alex, you being our resident legal person, who was it who basically said that he was correct?
[31:39.590 --> 31:41.650]  First of all, I don't know if anybody saw this.
[31:42.050 --> 31:45.110]  60 Minutes did a horrible piece on Sunday about NSA.
[31:45.530 --> 31:47.110]  And basically, I haven't seen it yet.
[31:47.330 --> 32:04.630]  I saw the BBC piece a couple of weeks earlier where they had Glenn Greenwald on, and it was insane watching this guy, basically, who seemed to be representing the government line, word for word, attacking a journalist and not understanding that he should be a journalist,
[32:04.630 --> 32:04.810]  too.
[32:04.870 --> 32:08.330]  He should be questioning what he's told, not simply believing what the government tells him.
[32:08.810 --> 32:13.590]  60 Minutes apparently did an even worse job of believing everything the NSA said and demonizing Edward Snowden.
[32:13.690 --> 32:21.050]  However, the day after, the day after the 60 Minutes piece aired, a court had something to say about this.
[32:21.350 --> 32:22.790]  Yeah, that's absolutely right.
[32:22.950 --> 32:28.590]  I mean, this is a really, really interesting decision that we had come down from the U.S.
[32:28.890 --> 32:32.530]  District Court for the District of Columbia from Judge Richard Leon.
[32:32.930 --> 32:45.850]  And what he had decided, and I think it's important to phrase it this way, is that the bulk metadata collection program that the NSA has been engaging in for the past seven years is very likely unconstitutional.
[32:46.250 --> 32:48.490]  And this would not have been possible.
[32:48.630 --> 33:01.990]  This first step that we've been talking about for months now, about how you contest surveillance, which is this obstacle of standing, how do you confer standing, would not have been possible but for the Snowden revelations.
[33:02.170 --> 33:04.610]  This was the first step that the judge made.
[33:04.670 --> 33:07.350]  The judge basically said, we know that these things exist.
[33:07.470 --> 33:10.770]  We know that this program exists because of Edward Snowden.
[33:11.050 --> 33:24.010]  And then he did something really, really interesting, especially, you know, in the context of the legal system, is that the judge went on to use something called common sense to make his ruling.
[33:24.390 --> 33:25.070]  Common what now?
[33:25.210 --> 33:25.930]  Common sense.
[33:26.110 --> 33:26.690]  Can you believe this?
[33:26.790 --> 33:26.890]  Yeah.
[33:27.070 --> 33:29.330]  Of the sort that Thomas Payne may have even described.
[33:29.370 --> 33:30.850]  Yeah, I thought that faded out about then too.
[33:30.890 --> 33:32.310]  Yeah, back in the 13th century.
[33:32.930 --> 33:34.210]  This was very, very interesting.
[33:34.930 --> 33:36.570]  So... Can I just read one thing this guy said?
[33:36.750 --> 33:36.990]  Please.
[33:36.990 --> 33:38.510]  Because I think it's extremely...
[33:38.510 --> 33:38.630]  You can.
[33:39.050 --> 33:42.210]  It's amazing to hear a judge actually say this.
[33:42.330 --> 33:45.510]  And I had to pinch myself a few times to see if I was dreaming.
[33:45.710 --> 33:47.410]  I cannot... This is the judge saying this.
[33:47.470 --> 34:00.870]  I cannot imagine a more indiscriminate and arbitrary invasion than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval.
[34:01.310 --> 34:08.710]  Surely, such a program infringes on that degree of privacy that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment.
[34:09.270 --> 34:09.830]  Wow.
[34:10.130 --> 34:14.070]  I also got to say, this guy was appointed by George W.
[34:14.070 --> 34:14.550]  Bush.
[34:14.830 --> 34:16.030]  He's known as a conservative.
[34:16.370 --> 34:26.650]  And the thing that really disturbs me is that there are way too many Democrats that are critical of this, that are saying that, no, we have to support the NSA programs because it's under Obama's watch.
[34:26.730 --> 34:28.210]  What a bunch of nonsense that is.
[34:28.210 --> 34:38.470]  I mean, as we've mentioned before, the opposition to this spying and the support for this spying really does not seem to have much to do with partisanness.
[34:38.630 --> 34:46.670]  It has to do much more with respect for government authority and respect for the authority of the individual.
[34:46.870 --> 34:57.770]  And there are people, as we've described so many times before, in both parties and outside of either party, who support all this spying and people who are working to destroy it.
[34:57.890 --> 35:05.430]  And I think that's really encouraging that it is... I don't want to be too encouraged by the fact that there are Democrats supporting this program.
[35:05.550 --> 35:13.590]  But I want to be slightly encouraged by it because it means that when we destroy this system, it will be done really in a cross-partisan manner.
[35:13.650 --> 35:14.690]  And I think that's exciting.
[35:15.210 --> 35:22.750]  I just think that there are a number of politicians out there that are supporting this program now that if it was introduced by George W.
[35:22.890 --> 35:24.330]  Bush, they would not be supporting it.
[35:24.550 --> 35:27.010]  And I just think that's the only criteria that they have.
[35:27.150 --> 35:31.630]  And yeah, there are others that genuinely believe that this is a good thing, regardless of who introduced it.
[35:33.010 --> 35:36.470]  But I think the tide is changing, and this is a good indication.
[35:36.630 --> 35:38.230]  Anyway, Alex, continue with your analysis.
[35:38.430 --> 35:38.830]  Oh, sure.
[35:39.010 --> 35:39.330]  Absolutely.
[35:39.650 --> 35:47.710]  But to stay on the political angle for half a second, last week, I went to go see James Bamford speak at the New School.
[35:47.930 --> 35:51.570]  And somebody had asked him, basically point blank, what happened to Obama?
[35:51.890 --> 35:54.470]  And his response, I thought, was actually really quite interesting.
[35:54.470 --> 35:57.610]  And he said, look, this whole system is a political tactic.
[35:57.750 --> 36:05.490]  And it's a ploy, because the critics of Obama are going to come down on him because he would appear, unlike most Republicans, to be soft on terror.
[36:05.630 --> 36:07.930]  So he wanted to be very, very, very hard on terror.
[36:08.090 --> 36:10.070]  And this is just blown up in his face.
[36:10.230 --> 36:11.170]  You just call him a Republican?
[36:11.430 --> 36:14.090]  The Republicans would say that he would be soft on terror.
[36:14.210 --> 36:14.490]  Unlike them.
[36:14.490 --> 36:14.950]  Yes, exactly.
[36:15.090 --> 36:15.670]  Unlike the Republicans.
[36:16.270 --> 36:25.150]  So this was trying to buttress against his political opponents by ramping up defense, ramping up the drone strikes, doing everything that the Republicans would do themselves.
[36:25.430 --> 36:27.790]  But in so doing, he's actually alienated his base.
[36:28.430 --> 36:30.290]  It's a complete disaster at this point.
[36:30.410 --> 36:40.490]  But it goes back to this notion that domestic politics plays such a huge role in programs like this, and in the support of programs like this.
[36:40.630 --> 36:46.830]  But it takes something like an Article III federal judge appointed by President Bush to rule on the constitutionality.
[36:46.970 --> 36:50.650]  And I think this is a major win for the judiciary.
[36:51.010 --> 36:58.150]  I mean, these life appointments can be often criticized, but I think it really just very much speaks to the independence of the federal judiciary.
[36:58.950 --> 37:05.190]  And so to go back to this standing issue, one of the things that we've been talking about for a really long time is, well, how do you get into court?
[37:05.610 --> 37:11.770]  Because you need to have this thing called concrete, particularized, actual or imminent damage.
[37:11.990 --> 37:12.070]  Yeah.
[37:12.130 --> 37:14.770]  Now, who is it who actually filed this in the first place?
[37:14.930 --> 37:17.010]  Oh, it's a couple of different plaintiffs.
[37:18.210 --> 37:24.650]  The case is actually entitled Clayman et alia, which is, and others, versus Obama et alia.
[37:24.890 --> 37:29.070]  And it names, you know, various people like Eric Holder as individual defendants as well.
[37:29.510 --> 37:31.090]  And I believe General Alexander.
[37:31.410 --> 37:34.510]  But the interesting thing, so this judge did something very interesting.
[37:34.730 --> 37:38.690]  He found that only two of these plaintiffs were actual Verizon subscribers.
[37:39.670 --> 37:51.710]  And based on the Judge Vinson opinion that was declassified from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, we know that the Verizon Business Network subscribers are the ones that were targeted.
[37:51.910 --> 37:55.650]  But what happened here was these plaintiffs were actually from Verizon Wireless.
[37:55.950 --> 38:00.910]  So a normal court would say, well, you haven't shown that you have actually been targeted.
[38:01.290 --> 38:02.970]  So, you know, you're out of here.
[38:03.090 --> 38:05.090]  You don't have standing, actually, to bring this case.
[38:05.770 --> 38:09.830]  But the judge didn't do that because he did something very, very, very interesting.
[38:09.970 --> 38:12.710]  He took what the government said and used it against them.
[38:12.910 --> 38:27.990]  He took all the government submissions, where they say that this is basically a huge, comprehensive metadata program where we take the records of everybody from every telephone company and we compare them against the known numbers that were dialed by terrorists or could have been dialed by terrorists.
[38:28.190 --> 38:34.810]  And he said, well, for this program to exist, that would necessarily require the participation of Verizon Wireless.
[38:35.030 --> 38:42.150]  And because these two people were Verizon Wireless subscribers, well, then they've actually probably been harmed by this.
[38:42.850 --> 38:44.430]  So it was very, very interesting.
[38:45.150 --> 38:47.810]  They took what the government said and used it against them.
[38:47.930 --> 39:03.450]  And then he found that these searches, these queries, actually implicated the Fourth Amendment because he found that we had a privacy right in our metadata, which is something that this case that we've been talking about for a very long time, Smith v.
[39:03.570 --> 39:11.190]  Maryland, which is the cornerstone of the surveillance program, would absolutely militate against.
[39:11.250 --> 39:18.630]  Because this was the case going way back to 1979 that involved the the imposition of a pen register on one person's telephone line.
[39:18.850 --> 39:27.270]  And the court had developed this third party doctrine that said, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy and records that you place in the possession of a third party.
[39:27.350 --> 39:31.150]  And we've been saying on the air for a long time, this is crazy.
[39:31.330 --> 39:34.530]  This does not apply to a gigantic massive surveillance program.
[39:34.930 --> 39:37.170]  And this is exactly what Judge Leon had said.
[39:37.270 --> 39:41.950]  He said, look, he basically destroyed the applicability of Smith v.
[39:42.110 --> 39:44.990]  Maryland to the NSA's massive surveillance program.
[39:45.030 --> 39:47.150]  He said, look, this is one person.
[39:47.210 --> 39:50.690]  And that data was held for just a few days.
[39:50.850 --> 39:55.510]  You know, here with this program, we're talking about millions and millions of people.
[39:55.650 --> 39:57.850]  And this data is being held for five years.
[39:58.110 --> 40:05.550]  And moreover, this program is going to go on for as long as the United States is at war with terror, with terrorists.
[40:05.690 --> 40:07.110]  I mean, that could go on forever.
[40:07.530 --> 40:10.050]  You know, and the other thing that was... That's the plan, I think.
[40:10.170 --> 40:11.370]  It might, it very well may be.
[40:11.570 --> 40:23.550]  But the other thing that was very interesting, too, is that he basically said that there's a difference of relationship with the government and the telephone companies these days than there was back in 1979.
[40:25.230 --> 40:27.330]  He actually used a very interesting word.
[40:27.450 --> 40:31.390]  He said, you know, well, in Smith, you know, this was a one-time, it was a one-off deal.
[40:31.590 --> 40:32.510]  They gave over this data.
[40:32.670 --> 40:33.830]  It didn't affect millions of people.
[40:34.410 --> 40:36.330]  Here, he literally, these are the words.
[40:36.430 --> 40:39.970]  He said, this is an all-encompassing, indiscriminate dump.
[40:41.310 --> 40:43.130]  Well, there's many ways you can interpret that.
[40:43.270 --> 40:43.770]  That's exactly right.
[40:43.770 --> 40:43.830]  Wow.
[40:43.930 --> 40:44.890]  Yeah, of metadata.
[40:45.350 --> 40:46.590]  Yeah, that's absolutely right.
[40:46.710 --> 40:46.770]  Yeah.
[40:47.210 --> 40:48.250]  So the technology today...
[40:48.250 --> 40:50.370]  I think that's how it should be known from here on.
[40:50.570 --> 40:50.970]  That's right.
[40:51.130 --> 40:51.270]  Yeah.
[40:51.490 --> 40:53.130]  All-encompassing, indiscriminate dump.
[40:53.230 --> 40:53.590]  Exactly.
[40:53.850 --> 40:55.510]  I wonder if that spells... What is that?
[40:55.650 --> 40:57.070]  A-E-I-D...
[40:57.070 --> 40:57.670]  It doesn't have to.
[40:57.670 --> 40:58.690]  It's good enough as it is.
[40:58.750 --> 40:59.050]  I know.
[40:59.330 --> 40:59.630]  Yeah.
[40:59.970 --> 41:02.790]  But I thought that was really wonderful language that was found in there.
[41:02.790 --> 41:14.930]  But that the quality of the data that's at risk today, this metadata, which is, you know, your location data, who you're calling, when you're calling, that that can lead to inferences about your sexuality, about your religious affiliations, about your political affiliations,
[41:15.130 --> 41:19.570]  things that numbers dialed back in 1979 would have absolutely no bearing upon.
[41:19.570 --> 41:32.210]  So he found that there was a subjective and reasonable expectation of privacy in our metadata, which is going completely against this case Smith v.
[41:32.270 --> 41:37.350]  Maryland that we've said for so long just needs to be thrown out, you know, with the bathwater here.
[41:37.670 --> 41:39.210]  I don't know if you were around for the show.
[41:39.350 --> 41:45.030]  We were talking about the 1986 issues that we've been digitizing, which are coming out any day now.
[41:45.530 --> 41:49.570]  But we were talking about metadata back then in the form of pen register information.
[41:49.850 --> 41:58.270]  And the concern was, amongst civil libertarians everywhere, that this information was being grabbed without any kind of search warrant.
[41:58.690 --> 42:03.930]  Basically, authorities were just able to look at it because it wasn't listening in on a phone call.
[42:04.050 --> 42:07.970]  It was simply looking at who somebody dialed, what time they dialed it, et cetera.
[42:08.450 --> 42:19.410]  And people were thinking back then, 1986, that, you know, a lot of information can be garnered from looking at who somebody talks to, when they talk to them, and who the people they talk to, talk to as well.
[42:19.610 --> 42:24.090]  Even more so than simply listening in on endless conversations that might not have anything to do with anything.
[42:24.410 --> 42:28.670]  Looking at your circle of friends, your acquaintances, that really tells the story.
[42:28.790 --> 42:30.710]  People have been on this for a long, long time.
[42:31.070 --> 42:40.430]  But of course, as technology improves and as our ways of communicating change with time, a lot more information can be gotten from this metadata.
[42:40.710 --> 42:43.430]  So, wow, it really is relevant.
[42:43.690 --> 42:45.630]  Yeah, it's very, very relevant.
[42:45.730 --> 42:52.370]  And that's really one of the things that Judge Leon had touched upon, is that this metadata is incredibly valuable, incredibly valuable stuff.
[42:52.670 --> 42:56.790]  But then we did another really interesting thing, was that, you know, he had to weigh this against the government's interest.
[42:56.890 --> 42:57.850]  And what's the government's interest?
[42:58.130 --> 42:59.010]  Fighting terrorism.
[42:59.190 --> 43:05.570]  Well, even he said, in his opinion, obviously, this is a really, really important interest that the government has in fighting terrorism.
[43:05.910 --> 43:10.670]  But he was not convinced that it was actually necessary to fight terrorism.
[43:10.890 --> 43:19.490]  He, again, looked at the government's submissions, and he found that it wasn't absolutely necessary, but it made things a lot easier for the government.
[43:19.490 --> 43:21.730]  It made things a little bit faster for them.
[43:21.970 --> 43:29.270]  And he said to... he basically wrote in the opinion that he did not believe the government's assertions that this had thwarted any imminent terrorist plot.
[43:29.270 --> 43:31.910]  That it was not absolutely necessary.
[43:32.030 --> 43:37.150]  That it was used essentially to double check an already completed investigation.
[43:37.490 --> 43:39.170]  Now, okay, let me ask you one thing, Alex.
[43:39.370 --> 43:44.870]  Now, this guy, a federal judge, Judge Leon, Richard Leon, he was in what court now?
[43:45.130 --> 43:45.870]  The U.S.
[43:46.150 --> 43:48.670]  District Court for the Federal District of Columbia.
[43:48.970 --> 43:50.290]  Okay, so down in D.C.
[43:50.510 --> 43:50.830]  That's right.
[43:51.450 --> 43:53.690]  What is going to happen from this point?
[43:53.990 --> 43:56.690]  Can that be overturned by some other judge someplace?
[43:57.050 --> 43:58.150]  Yeah, absolutely.
[43:58.670 --> 44:05.250]  And this is very interesting, too, because his order is stayed pending appeal, given the national security interests at stake.
[44:05.470 --> 44:07.490]  So nothing is going to change just yet.
[44:07.550 --> 44:09.250]  It's going to be appealed to the D.C.
[44:09.430 --> 44:11.250]  Circuit and a three-judge panel.
[44:11.590 --> 44:12.370]  Aha, okay.
[44:12.430 --> 44:13.670]  So who's that three-judge panel?
[44:13.770 --> 44:14.490]  We don't know yet.
[44:14.610 --> 44:15.370]  We don't know.
[44:15.510 --> 44:16.970]  What determines who that goes to?
[44:17.290 --> 44:18.810]  I think it's a lottery system.
[44:18.970 --> 44:19.650]  I'm not entirely sure.
[44:19.890 --> 44:19.890]  Is it really?
[44:20.050 --> 44:20.250]  Yeah.
[44:23.110 --> 44:24.910]  A other judges are selected in the D.C.
[44:25.010 --> 44:26.870]  Circuit, but I think it's probably random.
[44:27.050 --> 44:28.330]  What kind of time frame are we looking at?
[44:28.470 --> 44:29.270]  Six months, probably.
[44:29.450 --> 44:30.190]  We're looking at about six months.
[44:30.190 --> 44:37.650]  So in six months, right about when hope is happening, we're going to have another decision either affirming this or tearing it down.
[44:37.770 --> 44:46.490]  And then what happens after, let's say some three-judge panel says, no, Judge Leon, you're an activist judge, and here's what we're going to do instead.
[44:47.110 --> 44:47.830]  What happens then?
[44:47.970 --> 44:48.970]  Well, it's quite possible.
[44:49.150 --> 44:52.510]  You know, the three-judge panel, depending on who's on it, could say exactly that.
[44:52.710 --> 44:57.170]  And then the program would go on as usual, be business as usual.
[44:57.630 --> 44:58.530]  That's the final answer.
[44:58.610 --> 44:59.330]  There's no appeal to that.
[44:59.410 --> 45:00.130]  It doesn't go to the Supreme Court.
[45:00.130 --> 45:05.530]  Well, they could go to the Supreme Court, but for the time being, the process would be ongoing.
[45:05.710 --> 45:07.490]  And if they affirm what he says, then what?
[45:07.670 --> 45:11.130]  If they affirm what he says, then the program is going to have to stop.
[45:11.190 --> 45:23.290]  And what's a little bit unclear to me, to be honest with you from the opinion, is whether it stops with respect to these specific plaintiffs, or if it's going to be a much wider ceasing of this program.
[45:24.310 --> 45:30.310]  So it seems to me what we need is a terrorist attack in the next six months to really underline the government's position, right?
[45:30.470 --> 45:36.130]  I mean, if I was writing a TV show, that is what the evil people inside the government would do, right?
[45:36.310 --> 45:36.650]  Well, yeah.
[45:36.790 --> 45:40.650]  Another very interesting thing about this opinion, though, is, you know, you quoted some of this language.
[45:40.790 --> 45:41.510]  We've quoted some of this language.
[45:41.510 --> 45:56.350]  But one of the things the judge says is, look, I'm going to stay this, the execution of this judgment, you know, things will go on as usual, but I want the government to be ready to comply with my order if this is actually affirmed on appeal.
[45:56.650 --> 46:02.170]  So if they ratify, if they say, yep, yep, Judge Leon, you are absolutely right, he literally used this language.
[46:02.330 --> 46:08.190]  He said, you know, in light of the significant national interest, national security interest at stake in the novelty constitution, I will stay my order pending appeal.
[46:08.290 --> 46:13.990]  In so doing, I hereby give the government fair notice that should my ruling be upheld, this order will go into effect forthwith.
[46:14.130 --> 46:26.170]  I fully expect that during the appellate process, which will consume at least the next six months, the government will take whatever steps necessary to prepare itself to comply with this order when and if it is upheld.
[46:26.710 --> 46:34.850]  Suffice it to say, requesting further time to comply with this order months from now will not be well received and could result in collateral sanctions.
[46:34.850 --> 46:35.790]  He's serious.
[46:36.430 --> 46:37.190]  He's mad.
[46:37.390 --> 46:54.370]  So here's something I think he's not serious about and we still need some political solution for and you can tell me I'm wrong, but this only helps Americans, which is no good for the other 95% of the world that our government is spying on.
[46:54.390 --> 46:55.310]  It's an American court.
[46:55.810 --> 46:56.470]  I mean...
[46:56.470 --> 46:58.070]  Well, but it's Americans doing the spying.
[46:58.070 --> 46:59.170]  Right, right.
[46:59.470 --> 47:05.850]  So I do want to be a little bit careful here before we have too much American exceptionalism.
[47:06.690 --> 47:16.830]  As I've said before on this program and others have said before, I think the rights of my friends in Europe and our friends around the world to not be spied on by the U.S.
[47:16.910 --> 47:17.990]  government are also important.
[47:17.990 --> 47:24.150]  And I want to take it as only a partial victory if we do manage to stop the U.S.
[47:24.150 --> 47:25.470]  government from spying on U.S.
[47:25.470 --> 47:25.510]  people.
[47:25.510 --> 47:36.010]  I think that's up to their governments to enforce and say, you cannot spy on us if you want to do any business with us, if you want to have visa-free travel to our countries, they could take all kinds of sanctions against us.
[47:36.110 --> 47:36.790]  It's pretty clear that the U.S.
[47:36.870 --> 47:40.470]  government does not care about the visa-free travel of Americans to other countries.
[47:40.590 --> 47:41.410]  That's not a priority.
[47:41.670 --> 47:50.310]  Well, I think if other countries took a hard approach to this, and not just when their leaders are being spied upon, but when their people are being spied upon as well, it might get the attention.
[47:50.390 --> 47:56.310]  It might even get the attention more than when its own citizens stand up against the United States and say, enough already.
[47:56.710 --> 47:58.290]  I think that's part of the solution.
[47:58.310 --> 48:09.290]  But I do want to be careful that, you know, like the Brazilians I read this morning are canceling an Air Force order with some U.S.
[48:09.370 --> 48:12.730]  supplier and are going with a Swedish supplier instead.
[48:13.030 --> 48:18.930]  And, you know, it's just going to be the Brazilian government spying on Brazilians and making it harder for the U.S.
[48:19.010 --> 48:19.190]  government.
[48:19.310 --> 48:20.310]  And that is not sufficient either.
[48:20.450 --> 48:21.430]  We have to be careful.
[48:21.430 --> 48:23.650]  Well, there's nothing we can do about Brazilians spying on Brazilians.
[48:23.990 --> 48:25.030]  What can we do about that?
[48:25.270 --> 48:26.450]  I mean, there are all kinds of things.
[48:26.590 --> 48:28.050]  We can report on it.
[48:28.110 --> 48:29.650]  We can stand in solidarity with these people.
[48:29.810 --> 48:29.810]  Of course.
[48:29.810 --> 48:30.670]  But we can't stop it.
[48:30.750 --> 48:32.470]  It's up to Brazilians to stop their own government.
[48:32.490 --> 48:33.030]  I think it is.
[48:33.110 --> 48:41.230]  But I just want to caution... I know we have Brazilian listeners and I want to caution them not to accept this proposed solution where only Brazilians will spy on you.
[48:41.710 --> 48:42.190]  Well, yeah.
[48:42.330 --> 48:44.110]  Again, I think it's up to them to do that.
[48:44.930 --> 48:47.050]  We're doing what we can here in this country.
[48:47.210 --> 48:51.850]  I think this week marks a good success as far as that goes.
[48:51.970 --> 48:53.610]  But we mentioned Brazil.
[48:53.730 --> 48:57.870]  So let's focus on Brazil for a second because Edward Snowden wrote an open letter to the people of Brazil.
[48:57.990 --> 49:01.930]  We don't really have time to read the whole thing, but I would like to discuss it for a couple of minutes.
[49:02.190 --> 49:05.090]  There has been all kinds of misreporting.
[49:05.170 --> 49:06.970]  I haven't really even had time to look at the misreporting.
[49:07.010 --> 49:07.990]  In fact, I prefer not to.
[49:08.530 --> 49:12.130]  But has anyone read any of the headlines?
[49:12.130 --> 49:23.410]  I heard there are horrible misinterpretations of what he was saying, that he was offering to spy for them or various things like that, or he was begging for sanctuary, or they turned him down, or I don't know, all kinds of horrible things.
[49:23.410 --> 49:26.530]  I probably read one of these misinterpretations myself, as a matter of fact.
[49:26.530 --> 49:26.810]  Uh-huh.
[49:26.950 --> 49:27.710]  Yeah, absolutely.
[49:27.870 --> 49:47.530]  I mean, what I had read, and I don't remember exactly where it was, but in any event, that he said that he was willing to help with combating the NSA surveillance, which to me sounds a little treacherous and traitorous, and I don't know.
[49:47.590 --> 49:50.630]  It doesn't paint him in, I think, the most positive light at this point.
[49:50.810 --> 49:54.450]  Alex, what is treacherous or traitorous about combating NSA surveillance?
[49:54.870 --> 50:11.930]  Well, look, he's basically offering to work as an agent of a foreign power, which is giving, you know, if this is true, assuming the reporting is correct, that's going to give fodder for the Democrats and Republicans to equally condemn him.
[50:12.030 --> 50:12.890]  It's bad.
[50:13.050 --> 50:26.570]  I mean, honestly, you know, combating surveillance is in and of itself a good thing, but if you're doing it at the behest of a foreign power, a foreign power that is inimical at this particular time, to the United States, then it's just, it's just not good PR.
[50:27.210 --> 50:37.750]  I think that there are certain forces out there who, no matter what Edward Snowden does, will be more than happy and more than speedy to spin it as he is an evildoer.
[50:37.870 --> 50:42.670]  I think it is amazing how well he has resisted that so far.
[50:42.850 --> 50:53.210]  There are so many people throughout the world and even in the United States who see what he's doing, and a lot of people agree with what he's doing, and a lot of people who might not agree with what he's doing can understand with what he's doing.
[50:53.510 --> 50:59.970]  And he has been so good at, you know, trying to stay out of the limelight, but help where he can.
[51:00.550 --> 51:08.050]  And I think if he had done a much worse job at that, as almost anyone would, it would be fine.
[51:08.570 --> 51:14.230]  But I think what he's doing here, which is saying, look, I know, you know, what the essay is up to.
[51:14.330 --> 51:15.710]  I can explain it to you if you want.
[51:15.710 --> 51:19.010]  I think there's, there's really almost nothing to criticize in that.
[51:19.250 --> 51:19.370]  Yeah.
[51:19.410 --> 51:21.430]  In a situation like that, it's very easy to say something stupid.
[51:21.610 --> 51:22.370]  And he hasn't done that.
[51:22.470 --> 51:26.930]  He hasn't said anything that people say, wait a minute, proves you don't know what you're doing, what you're talking about.
[51:27.010 --> 51:27.750]  You haven't thought this through.
[51:27.950 --> 51:30.930]  And he's very, I don't know how he stays so calm.
[51:31.070 --> 51:34.590]  I mean, basically he sacrificed his life for this.
[51:35.230 --> 51:36.290]  It's an incredible thing.
[51:36.350 --> 51:38.810]  It's what I think we all dream that we're capable of.
[51:38.870 --> 51:45.790]  And of course, none of us probably are, uh, but a real model, real, I mean, the buses in Washington DC are saying thank you on the sides of them.
[51:46.290 --> 51:49.430]  You know, there is a groundswell of respect for what he has done.
[51:49.590 --> 51:50.870]  And I think that's only going to grow.
[51:51.490 --> 51:56.750]  Also, uh, we should, we should mention that, uh, the whole Brazil thing didn't come out, didn't come about, uh, completely randomly.
[51:56.910 --> 52:00.390]  Brazil actually, uh, offered him asylum, I think is what happened.
[52:00.610 --> 52:01.650]  So did they offer him asylum?
[52:02.030 --> 52:04.510]  Well, no, I mean, he doesn't have asylum in Brazil yet.
[52:04.630 --> 52:07.190]  We would be mentioning that if he had, yeah, I don't think he actually was off.
[52:07.390 --> 52:09.530]  I'm sure there are people in Brazil that want to give him asylum.
[52:10.350 --> 52:12.850]  Um, but, um, and it would be, it would be a good place.
[52:12.990 --> 52:14.090]  I mean, that's where Glenn Greenwald is.
[52:14.250 --> 52:16.190]  So, uh, the weather is a lot better than Moscow.
[52:16.470 --> 52:20.070]  Well, maybe, but what, what is it exactly that he's offering to do?
[52:20.170 --> 52:22.410]  I mean, I don't think we've actually gotten to that point yet.
[52:22.610 --> 52:26.130]  I mean, we've talked about the misinformation, but what is he, what is he offering to do?
[52:27.750 --> 52:28.750]  Has anyone read this letter?
[52:29.350 --> 52:30.170]  I have it right here.
[52:30.170 --> 52:30.710]  I don't have a copy.
[52:30.890 --> 52:31.550]  You have a copy.
[52:31.670 --> 52:32.130]  I have a copy.
[52:32.250 --> 52:33.190]  You can read it quickly if you want.
[52:33.290 --> 52:33.710]  I'm sorry.
[52:33.710 --> 52:34.530]  I didn't read it myself.
[52:34.670 --> 52:35.490]  I read it before.
[52:35.570 --> 52:35.970]  He's off.
[52:36.130 --> 52:38.650]  He's explaining what the, uh, the NSA is doing.
[52:38.790 --> 52:45.010]  And if you read the letter, he's very careful, uh, to only mention programs that have been previously been reported on publicly.
[52:45.330 --> 52:49.310]  So he probably knows about other programs, but he doesn't mention them in this letter.
[52:49.510 --> 52:51.390]  He says he has no more information that he's going to leak.
[52:51.510 --> 52:54.790]  He's given everything to the journalists to, uh, do with as they will.
[52:55.230 --> 52:57.550]  Um, but I don't believe he has anything, anything more.
[52:58.090 --> 53:10.550]  But if this is a part of his, um, seeking asylum in Brazil, then it's a declaration that, yeah, if I, if you do let me build a new life there, I will do right by my new home and work toward the betterment of the place, which would, uh, which would involve,
[53:10.550 --> 53:13.710]  uh, preventing foreign powers like us from spying on them.
[53:13.810 --> 53:27.330]  I believe he's also, uh, going to be testifying via teleconference, uh, to, uh, European lawmakers about, um, the, the, the, the spy, um, situation there, as far as people having their, their leaders or their citizens being monitored by the NSA.
[53:27.330 --> 53:27.370]  Okay.
[53:27.950 --> 53:29.370]  So he's agreed to do that.
[53:29.570 --> 53:32.250]  That's, uh, last I heard that was something that was in the works.
[53:32.590 --> 53:37.810]  The, the, uh, conservative party in the UK is aghast at this, that someone would testify.
[53:38.430 --> 53:39.830]  Well, they're aghast at a lot of things.
[53:39.970 --> 53:40.830]  That's, that's, that's for sure.
[53:41.150 --> 53:46.130]  But, uh, so this story continues to, uh, to, to keep moving and to be, uh, fascinating.
[53:46.390 --> 53:48.730]  It's been going on now for, uh, when did this break?
[53:48.770 --> 53:50.410]  Was it May or June?
[53:50.750 --> 53:51.410]  I think it was June.
[53:51.790 --> 53:52.010]  Yeah.
[53:52.230 --> 53:55.450]  So it's only been a half year, but look at how, how much has happened before that.
[53:55.570 --> 53:57.890]  Of course we had Julian Assange and WikiLeaks and all of that.
[53:58.270 --> 54:06.870]  So you got to think the years ahead, uh, specifically the year ahead is going to be really, really interesting and filled, filled with, uh, revelations of all sorts.
[54:07.070 --> 54:11.530]  And, um, um, um, just fascinating stories, my technological hacker point of view.
[54:11.610 --> 54:15.670]  And that's why this place, this station, this program is relevant.
[54:15.670 --> 54:17.990]  And that's why it's worthy of your support.
[54:18.130 --> 54:31.170]  And we hope that, uh, more people are calling 212-209-2950 and showing that support and getting a, um, uh, one of Mitch's nifty trip glasses for a pledge of $50 or becoming a BAI buddy for as little as $10 a month.
[54:31.390 --> 54:33.270]  212-209-2950.
[54:33.790 --> 54:37.450]  And of course your pledge also, uh, gets you a voice in where the station goes from here.
[54:37.590 --> 54:42.350]  So if you think you can, uh, if you think you have something to contribute along those lines, you know, get involved.
[54:42.530 --> 54:43.550]  This is the way you can get involved.
[54:43.710 --> 54:48.570]  212-209-2950 or give the numeral two WBAI.org.
[54:48.650 --> 54:48.790]  Yeah.
[54:48.830 --> 54:50.050]  This is a one week thing.
[54:50.190 --> 54:53.470]  We're only, uh, uh, pitching for, uh, funds this one week.
[54:53.570 --> 54:55.690]  We won't be doing it next week or the week after that or the week after that.
[54:55.910 --> 55:00.670]  Uh, this is something that, uh, we need because this year has been particularly challenging to us.
[55:00.750 --> 55:02.370]  212-209-2950.
[55:02.610 --> 55:08.170]  So I guess we should say if you, if you're the kind of person who itemizes your taxes, this is a great opportunity to give.
[55:08.330 --> 55:09.010]  Oh, that's right.
[55:09.070 --> 55:09.210]  Yeah.
[55:09.210 --> 55:11.190]  It's a whole text thing by the end of the year.
[55:11.350 --> 55:11.450]  Yeah.
[55:11.590 --> 55:14.810]  So if you, if you donate $10,000 right now, you're gonna get quite a write-off.
[55:14.810 --> 55:15.190]  Yeah.
[55:15.710 --> 55:15.970]  Yeah.
[55:16.170 --> 55:17.810]  212-209-2950.
[55:17.810 --> 55:18.690]  That's the phone number.
[55:18.850 --> 55:20.830]  Uh, we are pretty much out of time.
[55:20.970 --> 55:24.690]  Anybody have any, um, announcements or things that they'd like to share with people?
[55:25.670 --> 55:25.930]  Yeah.
[55:26.350 --> 55:26.770]  Go ahead, Mitch.
[55:27.410 --> 55:27.850]  Yeah.
[55:27.970 --> 55:35.050]  So, uh, I recently came back from China, um, where I, uh, helped set up, uh, hackers in residence program over there.
[55:35.230 --> 55:43.470]  It's part of the international hackers in residence program where, um, and, uh, this is part of what I've been doing to, to try to promote hackerspaces around the world.
[55:43.590 --> 55:45.230]  Right now, there's only about 1,500.
[55:45.570 --> 55:46.750]  Uh, that's not enough.
[55:46.810 --> 55:47.630]  Is that all really?
[55:47.710 --> 55:48.830]  Only 1,500 hackerspaces.
[55:48.970 --> 55:55.210]  But that's not enough for 7 billion people on our planet to, uh, to have opportunities that the hackerspaces, uh, have to offer.
[55:55.510 --> 55:58.070]  And, uh, China has a seventh of the population.
[55:58.250 --> 56:07.510]  And I'm really excited that, uh, one of the most prestigious universities in the world, uh, the most prestigious in China has embraced the hackers in residence program.
[56:08.150 --> 56:21.250]  And, uh, so there are, uh, a stream of hackers will be going to this university as hackers from hackerspaces around the world or anyone can take advantage of this and have a residency, uh, like all expenses paid trip to China.
[56:21.410 --> 56:26.170]  For instance, some, some spaces have studio space, some have, uh, way cool tools.
[56:26.250 --> 56:31.010]  Uh, and what they want in return is for you to be a mentor and maybe have a hackathon.
[56:31.010 --> 56:33.090]  Uh, everyone has their own different kind of, uh, requirements.
[56:33.090 --> 56:34.610]  Do you need to, uh, to know the language?
[56:35.310 --> 56:36.250]  Uh, I'm sorry?
[56:36.330 --> 56:37.630]  You need to know the language, Chinese.
[56:37.850 --> 56:38.270]  You need to know that.
[56:38.330 --> 56:42.350]  Oh, when you go to the one in China, no, they'll provide, uh, uh, interpreters.
[56:42.610 --> 56:48.330]  And, uh, other ones, they might require that you know Spanish to go down to Santiago, Chile, perhaps.
[56:48.630 --> 56:54.190]  Um, but there's a whole bunch in the United States and everyone in the world, uh, can apply for this.
[56:54.310 --> 56:57.790]  And I'm working right now on a website for the hackers in residence program.
[56:58.030 --> 56:59.170]  Any, uh, contact info you can give quickly.
[56:59.450 --> 56:59.510]  Yeah.
[56:59.630 --> 57:01.350]  So right now, uh, we don't have the website up.
[57:01.430 --> 57:06.950]  So if you're interested, please email me, uh, and I'll make sure you keep informed of opportunities.
[57:07.050 --> 57:10.690]  Mitch at cornfieldelectronics.com.
[57:11.270 --> 57:11.630]  Okay.
[57:11.830 --> 57:13.290]  And, uh, you'll be at CCC.
[57:13.570 --> 57:16.490]  I hope to, uh, hear some kind of report after that's over.
[57:16.630 --> 57:17.050]  Happy to.
[57:17.210 --> 57:21.950]  And people who aren't going to CCC that want to be a part of it, ccc.de is the web address.
[57:22.070 --> 57:24.610]  They'll be streaming, they'll be live video, all sorts of things.
[57:24.750 --> 57:26.150]  So you can pretend you're there.
[57:26.270 --> 57:28.030]  Even if you're not, I know that's probably what I'll be doing.
[57:28.530 --> 57:29.690]  I'll be back next week.
[57:29.770 --> 57:30.750]  Probably all on my own.
[57:30.930 --> 57:31.910]  It'll be kind of cool.
[57:32.530 --> 57:35.910]  Again, that pledge number 212-209-2950.
[57:35.910 --> 57:36.730]  Show your support.
[57:36.930 --> 57:37.470]  See you next week.
[57:37.570 --> 57:37.690]  Good night.
[01:01:03.430 --> 01:01:08.590]  You're listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM.