[00:00.000 --> 00:10.760]  One world schoolhouse of his dreams, with Silicon Valley's track record of success and the wind of the information superhighway at his back, he at least thinks he's in with a chance.
[00:11.040 --> 00:14.220]  That's our special Christmas Day edition of FSN Reports.
[00:14.500 --> 00:18.760]  Tomorrow, what role will Russia play globally in 2014?
[00:18.940 --> 00:23.200]  We'll have an extended discussion with the team in the FSN Moscow Bureau.
[00:23.520 --> 00:24.760]  I'm Simon Marks.
[00:24.840 --> 00:27.000]  For everyone with FSN Everywhere...
[00:32.020 --> 00:34.880]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI.
[00:34.960 --> 00:39.020]  New York time is 7 o'clock on a Wednesday, and it's Christmas Day.
[00:39.260 --> 00:42.060]  But it's still time for Off the Hook.
[00:47.240 --> 00:51.720]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:52.660 --> 00:57.220]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:57.840 --> 01:05.480]  We couldn't get much worse, but the best is back the worst.
[01:06.140 --> 01:09.100]  I hope that's understood one day, let me know!
[02:36.180 --> 02:38.980]  Yes, our special skipping mix of the Off the Hook theme.
[02:39.320 --> 02:41.440]  And welcome, this is Off the Hook.
[02:41.740 --> 02:43.880]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:44.340 --> 02:46.640]  Joined tonight by...
[02:48.420 --> 02:49.620]  By an empty studio.
[02:49.860 --> 02:50.720]  Wow, listen to that.
[02:50.880 --> 02:52.020]  There's nobody here except me.
[02:52.320 --> 02:54.620]  I can't remember the last time that's happened.
[02:55.360 --> 02:56.360]  It's kind of cool.
[02:56.780 --> 03:00.540]  I can say whatever I want, and nobody will refute what I say.
[03:00.960 --> 03:03.220]  Or agree with what I say, which is even more annoying.
[03:04.620 --> 03:09.820]  You know, maybe it's an exercise for the astute listener out there to find out when.
[03:09.980 --> 03:17.180]  The last time I did a show solo, an Off the Hook show solo here, was probably well over 20 years ago.
[03:17.180 --> 03:19.000]  So, wow, that's scary.
[03:19.660 --> 03:23.820]  Of course, it's also kind of unique in that it's Christmas Day, I'm here live.
[03:23.860 --> 03:27.460]  I've done shows on Christmas Day before, but usually I'm somewhere else.
[03:28.220 --> 03:33.040]  And I don't recall being here on this particular holiday.
[03:33.460 --> 03:35.720]  So, wow, that's a lot of...
[03:35.720 --> 03:37.340]  And I'll be here New Year's Day too, apparently.
[03:37.560 --> 03:39.260]  So, it's history.
[03:39.400 --> 03:39.880]  But you know what?
[03:39.880 --> 03:40.380]  I'm not alone.
[03:40.380 --> 03:44.280]  I'm not completely alone, because joining me on the telephone is Bernie S.
[03:44.820 --> 03:46.280]  Merry Christmas from Pennsylvania.
[03:46.540 --> 03:47.620]  Merry Christmas from New York.
[03:47.940 --> 03:49.360]  And to all our listeners, Merry Christmas.
[03:49.500 --> 03:51.960]  Yes, to you and yours, whatever that means.
[03:52.140 --> 03:56.260]  And it's kind of a low-key day here in New York.
[03:56.360 --> 03:56.860]  It really is.
[03:57.380 --> 03:58.260]  There's nobody here.
[03:58.360 --> 03:59.120]  Well, there are people around.
[03:59.220 --> 04:01.260]  There's all kinds of tourists roaming the streets.
[04:01.260 --> 04:06.780]  But if you're used to what New York is like on a normal weekday or even weekend, it's like a ghost town.
[04:06.780 --> 04:09.200]  So, it's kind of weird and kind of relaxing, kind of cool.
[04:10.380 --> 04:16.030]  But what we're going to do tonight is basically sum up a little bit of what's happened this week, maybe even this year.
[04:16.560 --> 04:24.600]  And then we're going to open it up to listeners who can share whatever they're going through today or their thoughts on various other things.
[04:24.680 --> 04:28.340]  Just keep it kind of low-key and mellow.
[04:29.460 --> 04:30.940]  And I have...
[04:31.530 --> 04:33.460]  This took quite a while to load, actually.
[04:33.640 --> 04:34.860]  And hopefully it'll still play.
[04:35.030 --> 04:39.150]  I have the Edward Snowden Christmas message that...
[04:39.150 --> 04:41.080]  Bernie, I believe you found the URL to this.
[04:41.220 --> 04:47.240]  It's kind of hard to find a working URL because Channel 4 in England is very protective of this.
[04:47.400 --> 04:51.260]  He basically gave a speech after Queen Elizabeth gave her speech.
[04:51.400 --> 04:51.880]  I'm not quite...
[04:51.880 --> 04:56.410]  Is that like the Republican response to Obama's speech whenever he gives one?
[04:56.410 --> 05:04.530]  Yeah, I think one year the Channel 4 broadcast a Christmas alternative message from Ahmed Abedinadad.
[05:04.530 --> 05:06.140]  I forget how it pronounces it.
[05:06.180 --> 05:07.940]  The former president of Iran.
[05:08.980 --> 05:09.410]  But...
[05:09.410 --> 05:10.910]  But Ahmed Abedinad did this one?
[05:11.060 --> 05:13.200]  I just noted to him, but I don't think it's a fair comparison.
[05:13.820 --> 05:25.640]  But they have a different message from just different noteworthy people every Christmas as an alternative to the Queen's sort of, you know, stayed Christmas message.
[05:25.640 --> 05:27.320]  Now, when she gives...
[05:27.320 --> 05:32.400]  And I realize you might not know the answer to this, but when she gives her annual message, is it just on Channel 4?
[05:32.520 --> 05:34.220]  Is it on every single station in England?
[05:34.440 --> 05:36.640]  I think it's probably carried by more than one media outlet.
[05:36.860 --> 05:37.140]  Uh-huh.
[05:37.340 --> 05:39.630]  But this is a specific BBC4...
[05:40.220 --> 05:40.760]  Not a BBC.
[05:41.040 --> 05:41.500]  Not BBC.
[05:41.840 --> 05:42.340]  It's not BBC.
[05:42.560 --> 05:43.540]  It's just Channel 4.
[05:43.620 --> 05:43.820]  Right.
[05:44.620 --> 05:46.080]  In England, in Britain.
[05:46.260 --> 05:50.460]  And I think they have chosen to do this alternative thing on their own.
[05:50.500 --> 05:51.640]  But it wasn't produced by them.
[05:51.640 --> 05:54.040]  It was produced by our friend Laura Poitras.
[05:54.040 --> 05:58.440]  Yes, yes, who has been very much involved in all this.
[05:58.660 --> 06:12.940]  I got to tell you, there were so many people that really had a good 2013, I think, as far as standing up for what they believe in and doing a really good job and a great public service for us, both as Americans and as humans.
[06:12.940 --> 06:19.050]  And one thing that Edward Snowden said over the past couple of days was something that George W.
[06:19.170 --> 06:20.080]  Bush also said.
[06:20.080 --> 06:23.580]  But this time, I think it really is true.
[06:23.580 --> 06:24.960]  And that's mission accomplished.
[06:25.220 --> 06:32.520]  Because he did accomplish the mission of getting this into the conversation, not just here, but everywhere.
[06:32.520 --> 06:45.380]  People are talking about the surveillance state that is amongst us everywhere, how leaders, how individual citizens are being spied upon by this one agency.
[06:45.820 --> 06:49.320]  And this is one guy, one guy that was able to expose all of this.
[06:49.520 --> 06:56.400]  Imagine if a bunch of people tried to expose what was actually going on, the good that could come out of that.
[06:56.760 --> 07:01.920]  Of course, the media, which is sad, the media likes to focus on the bad that can come out of it.
[07:01.920 --> 07:07.620]  Which, you know, this is something we've struggled with since our beginnings, back in 1984 with 2600.
[07:07.920 --> 07:11.240]  When you expose information, yeah, it can be used for good or for evil.
[07:11.540 --> 07:17.360]  But that's not an excuse to not share the information that you uncover, that you're able to find.
[07:17.640 --> 07:24.020]  And you have to consider it's out there anyway, to some degree, amongst various people.
[07:24.020 --> 07:29.880]  So, it's best that we confront this, we expose it, we analyze it, and we deal with it.
[07:30.260 --> 07:35.900]  And that's what I think 2013 has been all about, with these NSA leaks that are continuing.
[07:37.020 --> 07:37.580]  Absolutely.
[07:38.280 --> 07:44.980]  It's really inspiring how many people have stood up this year, or continue to stand up this year.
[07:46.680 --> 07:55.900]  From Chelsea Manning, to Edward Snowden, to Jay Gappelbaum, to so many people who are Laura Poitras, so many people who we've known.
[07:56.120 --> 07:58.080]  Glenn Greenwald, Julian Assange.
[07:58.260 --> 08:09.700]  And people that we have known for years, and are now suddenly in the limelight for having stood up for something that they strongly believed in, and stuck their necks out at great risk, great personal risk.
[08:09.700 --> 08:21.670]  Yeah, and there are so many people, too, that we don't hear about, kids, for instance, that basically see things going on around them, and say, no, this isn't right, I'm going to tell people about this, I'm going to expose this.
[08:21.920 --> 08:37.840]  Employees and companies, people that might not get the headlines, but are still conscientious, and very willing to put what's right ahead of what's regulated, and what's in their non-disclosure agreements, and various things like that.
[08:38.240 --> 08:41.480]  It's tough, you know, it's tough making that decision, it's tough making that sacrifice.
[08:41.480 --> 08:52.480]  When you think of the people that we're discussing right now, what they have gone through over the past few months, what they will go through in the months and years ahead, there are things they've given up as a result of this.
[08:53.120 --> 09:05.440]  I have friends who can no longer come to this country because of their involvement in these projects, but they don't regret doing it because they were in a position where they could help, and they did, and it has made a difference.
[09:05.760 --> 09:06.740]  It's made a huge difference.
[09:07.220 --> 09:13.520]  And we are having the conversation, we are analyzing these things, and we don't know where it's going to go from here.
[09:13.550 --> 09:19.500]  We don't know, but it's going to be a more informed public, and probably a public more aware of its privacy.
[09:19.720 --> 09:21.920]  What I would like to do now is attempt to play this.
[09:22.020 --> 09:27.660]  Now, when I clicked on this link, there were all kinds of things I had to agree to, all kinds of cookies that were downloaded.
[09:27.880 --> 09:33.420]  It took five minutes to download all that before it even started to play, and hopefully it will play now.
[09:33.420 --> 09:40.580]  This is the Christmas message from Edward Snowden, and hopefully there won't be too many seconds of awkward silence.
[09:40.920 --> 09:41.380]  Let's listen.
[09:42.480 --> 09:44.550]  Hi, and Merry Christmas.
[09:45.000 --> 09:48.140]  I'm honored to have a chance to speak with you and your family this year.
[09:48.670 --> 09:58.760]  Recently, we learned that our governments, working in concert, have created a system of worldwide mass surveillance, watching everything we do.
[09:59.440 --> 10:04.160]  Great Britain's George Orwell warned us of the danger of this kind of information.
[10:04.740 --> 10:13.340]  The types of collection in the book, microphones and video cameras, TVs that watch us, are nothing compared to what we have available today.
[10:13.580 --> 10:17.420]  We have sensors in our pockets that track us everywhere we go.
[10:17.880 --> 10:19.440]  Think about what this...
[10:24.140 --> 10:25.380]  Okay, I apologize for that.
[10:25.380 --> 10:26.700]  It's buffering.
[10:27.860 --> 10:28.380]  Hey, Emanuel?
[10:28.560 --> 10:28.820]  Yes.
[10:29.280 --> 10:33.880]  I think I posted to our list the link to SoundCloud, where you could download the audio.
[10:34.000 --> 10:39.020]  And I think Rob, who's not with us tonight, but he compiled an MP3 and posted that on our list too.
[10:39.140 --> 10:41.440]  Perhaps you could get a complete audio clip that way.
[10:42.240 --> 10:44.620]  Well, to do that, I'd either have...
[10:44.620 --> 10:47.300]  What means for the privacy of the average person?
[10:48.000 --> 10:53.500]  A child born today will grow up with no conception of privacy at all.
[10:54.240 --> 11:01.200]  They'll never know what it means to have a private moment to themselves, an unrecorded, unanalyzed thought.
[11:01.580 --> 11:04.040]  And that's a problem because...
[11:04.040 --> 11:08.000]  Okay, as I was saying, Bernie, to do that, this is ridiculous.
[11:08.520 --> 11:16.820]  I'd have to either type my password onto the public computer here, which I'm not going to do, or try to get Wi-Fi working, which is not working on this campus, apparently.
[11:17.760 --> 11:20.920]  I guess what's happening is the whole world is trying to see this video at the same...
[11:20.920 --> 11:21.860]  Privacy matters.
[11:22.680 --> 11:28.000]  Privacy is what allows us to determine who we are and who we want to be.
[11:28.680 --> 11:38.780]  The conversation occurring today will determine the amount of trust we can place both in the technology that surrounds us and the government that regulates it.
[11:40.280 --> 11:40.760]  Together...
[11:43.180 --> 11:47.580]  It's only about 30 seconds more, so we're not going to play this little charade much longer.
[11:48.160 --> 11:54.060]  But, yeah, the whole world seems to be trying to get to this video at the same time, so that's why we keep losing the connection.
[11:55.320 --> 12:00.500]  I'd be interested in knowing how many hits, how many people have downloaded it.
[12:00.500 --> 12:12.040]  We can find a better balance, end mass surveillance, and remind the government that if it really wants to know how we feel, asking is always cheaper than spying.
[12:12.960 --> 12:17.840]  For everyone out there listening, thank you, and Merry Christmas.
[12:20.100 --> 12:20.840]  There you go.
[12:21.020 --> 12:24.260]  Well, we got the whole message out there in bits and pieces.
[12:24.460 --> 12:25.280]  I'm sorry for that, folks.
[12:25.460 --> 12:31.700]  But, well, sometimes you have to sort of piece messages together to get the true meaning, and this is one instance of that.
[12:32.140 --> 12:35.840]  But I'm sure there'll be better copies of that around after today.
[12:36.740 --> 12:37.500]  So, yeah.
[12:38.840 --> 12:42.360]  Any particular surprises in that message, Bernie, that you can see?
[12:42.500 --> 13:07.820]  I don't think there were any real surprises, but I think it was well-written and very concise and appropriately broadcast from England, where George Orwell lived and wrote from and warned through his novel 1984 about, that's why we call it Orwellian, society where the government uses every means possible of electronic surveillance to track us,
[13:07.980 --> 13:11.960]  watch us, listen to us, monitor us, see who we associate with.
[13:12.180 --> 13:24.940]  And what Ed Snowden was saying is that what's going on now is far and above what was described in Orwell's 1984 book.
[13:25.680 --> 13:31.160]  From whether our cell phones in our pockets is now being used to track our movements and other things.
[13:32.200 --> 13:45.000]  And to the really scary thought, which we have talked about for a long time on this show, that people, younger people, are being conditioned to accept this as normal, all of this surveillance and lack of privacy.
[13:45.220 --> 13:53.540]  He's saying that a child born today will have, if things keep going as they are, have no concept of personal privacy.
[13:54.520 --> 13:55.080]  Yes.
[13:55.380 --> 14:09.940]  And that is kind of scary that people are just blithely going around assuming that their location is always going to be something that's publicly known, that they have no real expectation of privacy with their communications, who they speak to, what they say even.
[14:11.340 --> 14:17.760]  And yeah, I don't think there's a government in the world that does not want a populace that feels that way.
[14:17.760 --> 14:34.940]  Well, it's a very powerful form of control when people know that their government is or can watch them, listen to them, see where they go, when they go, different places, who they associate with.
[14:35.460 --> 14:42.640]  And that's made possible by this en masse logging of all our communications.
[14:43.060 --> 14:46.400]  None of us are claiming that they're all watching us in real time.
[14:46.420 --> 14:47.340]  That would be impossible.
[14:47.660 --> 15:02.980]  But when the government records all this information without any probable cause or even a reasonable suspicion that we're committing any crimes whatsoever, and they just record everything we do and say and who we communicate with and when and where and travel with,
[15:03.240 --> 15:12.700]  which is all possible with the technologies that they're surveilling, it can go back and build a complete picture of what we're doing.
[15:12.700 --> 15:16.960]  And when people realize people... it's a subtle thing, Emmanuel.
[15:17.280 --> 15:24.700]  When people just start to think this is normal, they begin to be more careful about what they say and do and who they associate with and where they go.
[15:25.100 --> 15:27.300]  And that is a very scary thought to me.
[15:27.440 --> 15:28.080]  Yeah, absolutely.
[15:28.360 --> 15:42.060]  When you start... you're thinking inside your brain in a way that is unhealthy as far as like, well, I can't associate with this particular person or be in this particular place because it could come back to haunt me in some particular way.
[15:42.600 --> 15:59.680]  And what you say about people, just their attitudes changing as they... well, people who aren't used to the way things used to be, not being aware that we lived in a different society 10, 20 years ago, completely different society.
[16:00.080 --> 16:04.500]  It's very, very true because that is how these changes happen.
[16:04.620 --> 16:08.200]  They happen slowly, but they happen completely.
[16:08.820 --> 16:11.580]  And there are things now.
[16:11.720 --> 16:16.620]  There are things now that people are used to, such as, for instance, the ridiculous name of the Department of Homeland Security.
[16:16.920 --> 16:18.200]  We laughed when we heard that.
[16:18.260 --> 16:19.720]  It just sounded like something out of a TV show.
[16:19.940 --> 16:22.120]  Now it's something that everybody just accepts.
[16:22.780 --> 16:28.840]  And a lot of the post 9-11 talk that we see on a daily basis, the way people...
[16:29.740 --> 16:34.100]  For instance, just yesterday, I heard this yesterday in a mall.
[16:34.100 --> 16:35.180]  I think it was on Long Island.
[16:35.880 --> 16:37.280]  Somebody dropped something.
[16:37.420 --> 16:41.180]  And of course, people assumed it was gunshots, so the whole mall had to be evacuated.
[16:41.460 --> 16:45.500]  You know, this is a world that we live in now that would have been ridiculous 20 years ago.
[16:45.680 --> 16:47.460]  But people's attitudes change.
[16:47.460 --> 16:49.660]  They don't know anything different.
[16:49.840 --> 17:04.720]  And when kids grow up, and they assume that elementary schools are supposed to have armed guards at the entrances, and that any communications they have with their friends or acquaintances are going to be logged and monitored, that's going to be their normal.
[17:04.920 --> 17:09.640]  That's going to be what they consider to be the way things are supposed to be.
[17:09.700 --> 17:11.420]  And if it's not like that, something is wrong.
[17:12.060 --> 17:17.600]  And I think, you know, people like Edward Snowden coming around and saying, yeah, this is what's actually happening.
[17:17.600 --> 17:24.920]  That might be the kick in the head we need to wake us up and say, well, where exactly are we going with this?
[17:25.640 --> 17:28.420]  And for that, I think it's been a really, really good year.
[17:29.880 --> 17:30.640]  Very much so.
[17:33.240 --> 17:34.620]  Oh, now this music...
[17:36.560 --> 17:38.200]  Actually, Kyle got us this music.
[17:39.140 --> 17:40.340]  And I want to thank him for that.
[17:40.940 --> 17:42.620]  This is...
[17:43.340 --> 17:45.680]  I didn't even know about this, but I recognized it immediately.
[17:45.680 --> 17:50.420]  This is known as the intermission music at the Chaos Congress.
[17:51.160 --> 17:54.960]  So between talks, you can hear this music.
[17:55.180 --> 18:04.840]  And I guess it just sort of gets into your brain because you're immediately associated with Germans filing through hallways and conference centers going from one talk to another.
[18:05.660 --> 18:06.800]  And I wish I was there.
[18:06.960 --> 18:07.940]  Well, it hasn't started yet.
[18:07.960 --> 18:09.420]  It will start the day after tomorrow.
[18:09.420 --> 18:16.280]  But what's cool about this is that you can stream, I think, all the talks.
[18:16.800 --> 18:29.320]  And in fact, I'm planning on attending several talks, which is something I don't usually do when I go to the conference itself, because I'm so busy talking with people and socializing and having adventures in various places.
[18:29.780 --> 18:33.060]  But when you're not there, you can go to their website.
[18:33.060 --> 18:34.740]  I'll give you the address.
[18:35.260 --> 18:46.260]  It's http s slash slash events dot cc dot de slash congress slash 2013 slash wiki slash streams.
[18:46.680 --> 18:58.880]  And you should be able to pick the talk of your choice, including Glenn Greenwald's keynote address, which I believe is on Friday morning in German time.
[18:58.880 --> 19:01.640]  So it's probably Thursday, very late night for us.
[19:03.180 --> 19:04.900]  Bernie, have you ever been to one of the congresses?
[19:05.060 --> 19:05.880]  I've been to several of them.
[19:05.920 --> 19:06.500]  That's right, you have.
[19:06.620 --> 19:07.080]  It was a while ago.
[19:07.240 --> 19:08.200]  Not that recently.
[19:08.680 --> 19:10.720]  It just doesn't work out for my personal schedule.
[19:10.860 --> 19:18.160]  But I wish I was there right now, too, because it's an amazing sharing of ideas, much like hope, but it's been going on.
[19:18.220 --> 19:20.080]  This is not the 30th.
[19:20.360 --> 19:21.560]  This is the 30th.
[19:21.640 --> 19:27.040]  Yeah, it's going to be mayhem and pandemonium, because, wow, it's a big anniversary, 30 years of this.
[19:27.200 --> 19:31.140]  And it's incredible because it's also 2600's 30th anniversary.
[19:31.140 --> 19:33.620]  A lot happened in 1984, apparently.
[19:33.840 --> 19:34.900]  It was a big year.
[19:35.320 --> 19:38.080]  And it's good to mark these things.
[19:38.720 --> 19:44.740]  I think it's interesting that one of their keynote speakers is Glenn Greenwald, who is...
[19:44.740 --> 20:05.780]  It seems like journalists are now, now, finally, more journalists are finally coming to talk with the hacker community and learn and to share what they know and vice versa and realize that people like Ed Snowden, who I consider a member of the hacker community,
[20:05.780 --> 20:11.240]  I saw a picture of him today for this interview that it was interviewed for, that we play the audio for today.
[20:11.260 --> 20:23.920]  His laptop had a bumper sticker from the Electronic Frontier Foundation and a sticker for TOR, the Onion Router Project that Jake Applebaum is involved with and other folks we know.
[20:24.760 --> 20:26.780]  So those are hallmarks of a hacker.
[20:27.060 --> 20:29.940]  And all of this stuff is interconnecting.
[20:30.040 --> 20:45.560]  And I am really pleased to see a closer working between journalists and documentarians like Laura Poitras, Glenn Greenwald, and the hacker community, to get more information out to the public about what's really going on.
[20:45.980 --> 20:50.120]  Because there's a lot the public is not being made aware of.
[20:50.220 --> 20:54.800]  And what Edward Snowden has done is remarkable.
[20:55.660 --> 20:56.660]  It's brilliant.
[20:57.480 --> 21:05.740]  Just sort of dripping these documents out, allowing the journalists to meet these documents out slowly over time.
[21:06.120 --> 21:09.160]  It's got to be like Chinese water torture to governments.
[21:09.520 --> 21:11.760]  Well, it's, yeah, I mean, it's a simple thing.
[21:11.880 --> 21:19.560]  It's a simple enough thing to have access to something and to share what you learn with the right people.
[21:19.700 --> 21:22.320]  It's a difficult thing to find the right people.
[21:22.620 --> 21:31.320]  Now, Edward Snowden could have easily gone to the wrong journalist that just would have simply turned it into the government, turned him into the government, and not done anything with the story.
[21:31.420 --> 21:38.940]  But he went to people that actually would get this, would understand what it was that he was saying.
[21:39.120 --> 21:40.020]  And it took a while, too.
[21:40.080 --> 21:44.400]  I know he was trying to get Glenn Greenwald to communicate via PGP.
[21:44.560 --> 21:50.420]  And we've talked about this before on this show, how kludgy it can be trying to get PGP to work properly.
[21:50.560 --> 21:52.620]  And it's a real pain in the ass sometimes.
[21:53.800 --> 22:01.940]  But fortunately, it took a little bit of time, but he got Glenn Greenwald's attention and was able to get this information to him.
[22:02.200 --> 22:05.220]  And of course, Glenn was able to get it out to the world and continues to.
[22:06.060 --> 22:09.340]  And at great personal risk to him as well.
[22:09.460 --> 22:10.760]  He's been harassed by authorities.
[22:11.140 --> 22:12.680]  His partner's been harassed by authorities.
[22:13.460 --> 22:17.800]  And likely, he will continue to be for many years to come.
[22:17.920 --> 22:22.860]  He will be considered an enemy of the state by some of those less evolved people in politics.
[22:23.640 --> 22:31.720]  And we need people like this in the hacker world, in the journalistic world, who know that, yeah, sometimes it's not easy.
[22:31.920 --> 22:34.580]  Sometimes you do have to make hard choices.
[22:34.740 --> 22:43.440]  Sometimes you have to sacrifice things that you would rather not have to sacrifice for the greater good, to get the word out, to share the information, to tell the truth.
[22:43.980 --> 22:47.980]  And that's something that I think a lot of people who criticize this don't realize.
[22:48.100 --> 22:49.000]  This is the truth.
[22:49.120 --> 22:49.860]  This is what's happening.
[22:50.340 --> 22:52.640]  And that is supposed to be a good thing.
[22:52.800 --> 22:53.940]  We're supposed to learn about this.
[22:54.060 --> 22:58.280]  We're supposed to know that our privacy is not what we think it is.
[22:58.440 --> 23:05.440]  That both corporations and governments are well into a lot of our lives that we were not aware.
[23:05.620 --> 23:07.700]  We're open for inspection like this.
[23:08.420 --> 23:11.940]  Now, something happened this week that was really kind of interesting too.
[23:12.040 --> 23:21.960]  And that was the revelation that the NSA paid RSA $10 million to install backdoors into their software.
[23:22.180 --> 23:22.880]  Have you heard about this, Bernie?
[23:23.240 --> 23:23.820]  I have.
[23:23.980 --> 23:25.080]  And it's scary.
[23:25.320 --> 23:28.460]  You know, you really begin to wonder, who can we trust?
[23:28.820 --> 23:30.180]  You know, this is NSA.
[23:30.520 --> 23:32.400]  It's a long time been...
[23:34.160 --> 23:34.880]  Or RSA.
[23:35.240 --> 23:35.500]  I don't know.
[23:35.560 --> 23:37.100]  Did I say NSA RSA?
[23:37.260 --> 23:40.100]  It's almost like, who are we talking about here?
[23:40.460 --> 23:42.080]  Well, they might as well merge at this point.
[23:42.200 --> 23:42.200]  I know.
[23:42.320 --> 23:46.780]  It's like, we should just call it NSRSA or something.
[23:46.780 --> 24:04.060]  But the story is being reported that a piece of software that RSA was releasing used a particular encryption algorithm that was recommended by the National Security Agency.
[24:04.260 --> 24:04.480]  Yeah.
[24:05.880 --> 24:07.820]  As, oh, this is really secure.
[24:07.820 --> 24:08.560]  You should use this.
[24:09.400 --> 24:18.900]  And they made it the primary, reportedly made it the primary default algorithm in this particular piece of secure communication software.
[24:19.140 --> 24:19.240]  Yeah.
[24:19.320 --> 24:30.760]  According to the story from the register, the mystery of why RSA would use a flawed NSA championed algorithm as the default random number generator for several of its encryption products appears to be solved.
[24:31.080 --> 24:33.600]  And the answer is utterly banal.
[24:33.600 --> 24:35.760]  Well, if true, the NSA paid it to.
[24:35.920 --> 24:50.820]  Reuters has reported that RSA received $10 million from the NSA in exchange for making the agency-backed dual elliptic curve deterministic random bit generator the preferred random number algorithm.
[24:50.820 --> 24:56.280]  And that's according to newly disclosed documents provided by, guess who, whistleblower Edward Snowden.
[24:56.280 --> 24:59.080]  Now, interesting thing.
[24:59.220 --> 25:03.460]  And they say here, if that figure sounds small, that's because it is.
[25:03.700 --> 25:10.460]  Tech giant EMC acquired RSA for $2.1 billion in 2006.
[25:11.000 --> 25:13.460]  That's around the same time as the backroom NSA deal.
[25:13.540 --> 25:17.680]  So it seems odd that RSA would kowtow to the G-men so cheaply.
[25:17.840 --> 25:27.740]  But according to Reuters, at the time, things weren't looking so good for the division of RSA that was responsible for its B-safe encryption libraries.
[25:27.740 --> 25:29.440]  That's B-S-A-F-E.
[25:29.680 --> 25:38.000]  In 2005, those tools brought in a mere $27.5 million of RSA's $310 million in annual revenue, or just 8.9%.
[25:38.000 --> 25:48.440]  So by accepting $10 million from the RSA, as Reuters claims, the B-safe division managed to increase its contribution to RSA's bottom line by more than a third.
[25:49.100 --> 26:02.020]  It wasn't long after RSA switched to dual EC-DRBG as its default, that's what we just mentioned, that security experts began to question whether the new algorithm was really all it was cracked up to be.
[26:02.140 --> 26:13.980]  In 2007, a pair of Microsoft researchers observed that the code contained flaws that had the potential to open a perfect backdoor in any encryption that made use of it.
[26:14.100 --> 26:21.600]  And such concerns remain largely within the province of security experts until earlier this year, when those documents were leaked.
[26:22.800 --> 26:28.040]  So, yeah, I guess the word was out there that this was potentially a problem.
[26:28.460 --> 26:31.880]  But now we know for sure just how that problem came about in the first place.
[26:32.020 --> 26:41.960]  And wow, I mean, yeah, I want to say what a shock, but at the same time, I want to say I'm not really surprised by this, because there's such corruption every place and money talks.
[26:42.140 --> 26:46.520]  And when money doesn't talk, the force of authority certainly does.
[26:47.280 --> 26:50.820]  And it's sad, but it's another eye-opener.
[26:51.240 --> 27:16.700]  Emanuel, you may remember way back in the 70s, IBM was developing the data encryption standard, DES, and had originally made it a 64-bit, had a 64-bit key, and the NSA knocked on the door and said, hey, we really want to make this 56-bits because, well,
[27:16.720 --> 27:18.680]  you know, we should just do it that way.
[27:19.340 --> 27:26.040]  And so DES was watered down by IBM at the behest of the NSA.
[27:26.200 --> 27:27.400]  Who knows if money changed hands?
[27:27.460 --> 27:27.920]  Probably.
[27:28.160 --> 27:29.140]  We will never really.
[27:29.240 --> 27:29.960]  Maybe we will know.
[27:30.080 --> 27:31.300]  Who knows, eventually.
[27:31.300 --> 27:49.320]  But, and then I remember back in the, back in the 90s, it came out that a, a seer communications program, a company called Crypto AG, which manufactured crypto machines used by embassies around the world by various governments, was, was compromised by NSA.
[27:49.580 --> 27:55.580]  And all the crypto machines were, were boogered by the NSA.
[27:56.000 --> 27:59.680]  So this is not a new tactic by the NSA to approach companies.
[27:59.880 --> 28:11.320]  And it's, uh, clearly it's much easier for the NSA to, to corrupt, uh, organizations that develop secure communications equipment and software than to crack the encryption itself.
[28:11.320 --> 28:28.020]  We've learned from some of these leaked documents from Ed Snowden, from the NSA, that, uh, the, uh, the agency has a, uh, has a huge division, uh, central security service, which their job is to, is to infiltrate using moles, individuals to infiltrate these companies,
[28:28.360 --> 28:31.720]  uh, to get, to get these back doors installed and so forth.
[28:32.040 --> 28:37.300]  Um, because that's easier and cheaper than actually trying to crack, uh, the encryption.
[28:37.580 --> 28:43.720]  I'm sure they're trying to do both, but that's, uh, you know, you go for the weakest link in the chain and it's typically, uh, the human link.
[28:45.260 --> 28:47.200]  That would, uh, appear to be so.
[28:47.860 --> 28:49.880]  Um, now I want to move on to something else.
[28:49.880 --> 28:54.280]  I think you posted this on, on our list about, uh, the, the drone survival guide.
[28:54.520 --> 28:55.700]  Is that something that you found?
[28:55.980 --> 29:11.880]  Yeah, there's, uh, a lot of our listeners, a lot of our listeners have been, uh, very interested in, uh, this, uh, private project, um, that an individual created this, uh, this, this free poster, which you can just go to dronesurvivalguide.org.
[29:12.320 --> 29:14.360]  It's this really great big poster.
[29:15.200 --> 29:19.560]  Um, uh, it's kind of referred to as like 21st century bird watching.
[29:19.760 --> 29:24.640]  You know, you can look up and see the silhouettes of these drones and identify them by how they look on this poster.
[29:24.980 --> 29:28.220]  I recommend all our listeners go to dronesurvivalguide.org.
[29:28.440 --> 29:31.360]  You can order a, a nice printed, uh, poster.
[29:31.600 --> 29:36.320]  It's about, uh, um, I don't know, about three feet by three feet.
[29:36.440 --> 29:37.800]  It's a nice big poster.
[29:38.120 --> 29:39.520]  Maybe a couple of feet by a couple of feet.
[29:39.600 --> 29:44.800]  Or you can download the PDFs in, in, it looks like dozens of languages this is translated to.
[29:45.480 --> 29:46.820]  Um, but it's really interesting.
[29:46.960 --> 29:52.320]  It just shows you the, uh, the, uh, the silhouettes and profiles of all the known drones.
[29:52.560 --> 29:55.660]  And there's dozens of them from different countries, companies.
[29:56.380 --> 30:00.040]  Um, and it's, uh, one way to like know what you're looking at.
[30:00.140 --> 30:05.360]  And it has a few tips on, uh, how to avoid drone surveillance, how to hack drones, that sort of thing.
[30:05.500 --> 30:06.360]  I think it's kind of cute.
[30:06.480 --> 30:11.380]  It's not going to save the world, but it's, uh, it, it, it brings public awareness and that's what I'm all for.
[30:12.660 --> 30:13.100]  Okay.
[30:13.420 --> 30:18.400]  Um, I'd like to give out our phone number 212-209-2900 for people to call in.
[30:18.520 --> 30:33.140]  We would like to, uh, devote time to our listeners input on this, uh, holiday, uh, when there's not a lot of people around and maybe, um, there are folks listening to the radio that, um, uh, would like to share things, especially people in different countries as well that might be listening,
[30:33.420 --> 30:38.520]  uh, that, um, might have a better chance of getting through, uh, on a day like this.
[30:38.640 --> 30:42.720]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[30:43.120 --> 30:45.480]  And, uh, calls are already coming in, so let's see who's out there.
[30:45.760 --> 30:46.280]  Good evening.
[30:46.420 --> 30:47.280]  You're on Off the Hook.
[30:47.480 --> 30:49.100]  Yes, it's Tom from the Bronx.
[30:49.200 --> 30:50.020]  Why, what a surprise.
[30:50.340 --> 30:50.740]  Yes.
[30:50.960 --> 31:14.380]  I'd like to say that years ago, there was an experiment done somewhere in Europe where they had, uh, they had, they had one radio station, uh, regular radio, uh, that they had said, well, uh, let's, uh, let's monitor who, uh, tunes in to what station.
[31:15.180 --> 31:22.820]  And the, the country, whoever was helping them with the experiment, went along with it a day or two.
[31:23.100 --> 31:26.920]  And then after the third day they said, this is totally ridiculous.
[31:27.040 --> 31:28.780]  We're going to stop it right now.
[31:29.540 --> 31:31.480]  And this happened somewhere in Europe.
[31:32.680 --> 31:33.080]  Okay.
[31:33.240 --> 31:35.740]  I think it was maybe Eastern Europe or something.
[31:35.880 --> 31:36.400]  I don't know.
[31:37.840 --> 31:40.500]  Oh, the technology has existed for that a long time, Tom.
[31:40.520 --> 31:41.400]  Thanks for bringing that up.
[31:41.660 --> 31:52.680]  Um, yeah, but in other words, but could you imagine if I listened to your radio, I mean your station, uh, these things somewhere have to know what station I'm listening to.
[31:53.400 --> 31:53.920]  Yeah.
[31:54.060 --> 31:57.700]  And that's another form of, of being sneaky.
[31:58.000 --> 31:58.260]  Yeah.
[31:58.260 --> 32:00.960]  There's a company that developed that as a business model a few years ago.
[32:01.200 --> 32:09.820]  Uh, they had these receivers implanted, uh, in billboards and as cars drove by, they could tell what, what radio stations people were listening to as they drove by in their cars.
[32:10.160 --> 32:12.340]  And I think that company is still in business actually.
[32:12.620 --> 32:14.220]  Um, probably it, probably it.
[32:14.220 --> 32:22.160]  So you don't, you have to be kind of close with a rate with a special kind of radio receiver to sort of each radio trans, each radio receiver is actually a very weak transmitter too.
[32:22.340 --> 32:28.520]  So it, it kind of transmits, uh, uh, a signal on a different frequency indicating what frequency you're tuned to on that radio.
[32:28.780 --> 32:29.000]  Right.
[32:29.280 --> 32:38.180]  But if they want to get mad at like people like myself listening to your station, they say, oh, that's dangerous, this station.
[32:38.680 --> 32:47.440]  And there's times I've, I've noticed that, uh, the, uh, the voice coming from the radio gets very, very low.
[32:47.860 --> 32:57.940]  One day they were talking about some very, very, uh, big topic and the voice got so low, you had actually strain to hear what was going on.
[32:58.240 --> 32:59.080]  Well, it doesn't matter.
[32:59.240 --> 33:01.020]  The, the, the level of the audio doesn't really matter.
[33:01.160 --> 33:04.460]  That the, the radio can still get people to tune out.
[33:04.660 --> 33:05.560]  Oh, I see what you're saying.
[33:05.680 --> 33:06.200]  I see what you're saying.
[33:06.400 --> 33:14.420]  See, or get people to turn the volume way up and then blast them when they turn their volume And it didn't... That was actually the first Monty Python show.
[33:14.540 --> 33:22.840]  They were planning on doing that, of lowering the volume more and more so people would turn their TVs up and then 20 minutes into the show they were just going to go back to normal and blast everybody in England.
[33:22.960 --> 33:26.260]  Well, Monty Python is one story.
[33:26.860 --> 33:30.900]  The kind of stories that you bring over the radio over here or another.
[33:31.360 --> 33:32.700]  And very in-depth.
[33:32.940 --> 33:35.220]  Yeah, but they're getting more and more similar it seems.
[33:35.440 --> 33:38.620]  Anyway, Tom, thanks for calling and we're going to move on to another call.
[33:38.620 --> 33:40.900]  And that call just left us.
[33:41.100 --> 33:41.740]  Oh, great.
[33:41.920 --> 33:42.040]  Okay.
[33:42.460 --> 33:44.080]  212-209-2900.
[33:44.220 --> 33:50.880]  I'm not sure what the capacity of this phone instrument we have is, but hopefully we'll get those loaded up again.
[33:51.020 --> 33:51.280]  212.
[33:51.440 --> 33:52.740]  If you get disconnected, call right back.
[33:53.120 --> 33:55.760]  Country code 1, 212-209-2900.
[33:56.000 --> 34:07.120]  Tell us what you think of the Snowden revelations this year, of the state of privacy and surveillance, how it affects you and perhaps ideas of what we can be doing better.
[34:07.120 --> 34:07.800]  Let's take a phone call.
[34:07.860 --> 34:08.120]  Good evening.
[34:08.260 --> 34:09.100]  You're on off the hook.
[34:11.100 --> 34:11.780]  Speak up, please.
[34:12.200 --> 34:12.440]  Go ahead.
[34:13.000 --> 34:13.640]  Is Jeannie there?
[34:14.680 --> 34:15.000]  No.
[34:15.280 --> 34:16.060]  No, Jeannie's not there.
[34:16.180 --> 34:16.680]  That's the wrong number.
[34:16.740 --> 34:17.020]  Good evening.
[34:17.220 --> 34:18.200]  You're on off the hook.
[34:19.280 --> 34:19.540]  Yes.
[34:19.700 --> 34:20.060]  How you doing?
[34:20.200 --> 34:20.400]  Hi.
[34:20.440 --> 34:20.940]  What's on your mind?
[34:21.080 --> 34:21.320]  Okay.
[34:22.400 --> 34:27.080]  You know, it's really ironic that, you know, people criticize technology.
[34:27.480 --> 34:28.480]  Yeah, please speak up a little bit.
[34:28.520 --> 34:29.100]  You're very low.
[34:29.240 --> 34:29.360]  Yeah.
[34:29.520 --> 34:29.740]  Okay.
[34:29.760 --> 34:30.280]  I'm sorry.
[34:31.320 --> 34:33.440]  I have a speaker phone thing.
[34:33.600 --> 34:35.040]  Let me plug it up.
[34:37.360 --> 34:38.040]  Yeah.
[34:38.300 --> 34:39.100]  People criticize.
[34:39.540 --> 35:04.480]  They're kind of like a double standard or I guess it's like, it's almost what I think of as almost like a kind of like cognitive dissonance where the same people like your show that criticize technology actually endorse technology and endorse the type of spying and the type of things that are going on.
[35:04.480 --> 35:17.540]  And I think at the same time that you're, you know, bigging up Edward Snowden and all these people, that your show, we're tethered to this technological, like, nightmare.
[35:18.980 --> 35:20.800]  We're actually tethered to it.
[35:21.020 --> 35:22.340]  Can you give an example?
[35:23.180 --> 35:24.880]  The example is this show.
[35:25.140 --> 35:30.400]  I'm telling you that most people can't walk out of their house without a cell phone.
[35:30.400 --> 35:42.160]  When was the last time that you looked at the streets of New York City and seen a person walking around without looking down on the ground, stopping in the middle of the street, looking at their cell phone, texting?
[35:42.460 --> 35:46.420]  So this is the type of thing that we're involved in.
[35:46.580 --> 35:56.480]  So if we're involved in this and criticizing at the same time, because what's going on is it's being sold to us as convenience or we're connected to the rest of the world.
[35:56.480 --> 35:57.960]  It's a connection point.
[35:58.000 --> 36:02.020]  And we're not actually recognizing where that connection point starts.
[36:02.500 --> 36:08.780]  Just like Edward Snowden said, the kids that are being born today are not going to know where connection points start.
[36:09.040 --> 36:19.620]  The connection points start with actual human interaction, not some kind of technological interface that we have to connect to.
[36:19.620 --> 36:35.560]  In order... See, we're in the point of transhumanism right now, where we've gone beyond human connection and interfacing with actual technology and connecting to technology in order to feel human.
[36:37.020 --> 36:37.840]  I see.
[36:37.960 --> 36:38.100]  Okay.
[36:38.400 --> 36:39.140]  Interesting points.
[36:39.400 --> 36:39.960]  Interesting points.
[36:40.180 --> 36:47.960]  And so when you're going to criticize what the government is doing, think about what you're doing and how you're connecting.
[36:47.960 --> 36:49.280]  Even this hacker thing.
[36:49.460 --> 36:50.680]  I'm not knocking it.
[36:50.780 --> 36:52.300]  I'm not saying anything about it.
[36:52.480 --> 36:59.200]  But what you're doing and digging it up and interfacing with it in a way that you're doing.
[37:06.410 --> 37:06.810]  Okay.
[37:06.910 --> 37:07.350]  Well, thanks.
[37:07.510 --> 37:08.330]  Thanks for that.
[37:08.650 --> 37:10.730]  And we're going to move on to another phone call.
[37:11.370 --> 37:12.150]  And good evening.
[37:12.350 --> 37:13.050]  You're on Off the Hook.
[37:14.850 --> 37:15.590]  Speak up, please.
[37:16.250 --> 37:16.650]  Yes.
[37:16.850 --> 37:17.190]  Hi.
[37:17.370 --> 37:19.290]  I'm sorry to have lost that other caller.
[37:19.410 --> 37:20.890]  He was making some interesting points.
[37:21.530 --> 37:22.430]  Until he stopped, yes.
[37:22.430 --> 37:23.550]  Turn the radio down.
[37:23.770 --> 37:42.890]  I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I want to remind you that one of the things you mentioned early on, and I am enjoying the show, you're bringing out some good information, you know, what is a world like without privacy, which is our very essence as humans,
[37:43.910 --> 37:47.330]  and the generation coming up that won't know that.
[37:47.590 --> 37:51.810]  But you mentioned about all the things that happened after 9-11.
[37:52.330 --> 37:54.570]  And I want to bring it back to the technology.
[37:54.890 --> 38:04.450]  The technology, in terms of the way the towers came down, is not something that some individual Muslims had.
[38:04.450 --> 38:23.670]  In fact, it's probably more likely what Dr. Judy Wood says, in that it was directed energy, which is something we need to look at, because we're talking about technology, but we're not looking at that technology that brought those buildings down, the Patriot Act that was on the shelf.
[38:23.890 --> 38:32.390]  So I'm just, you know, I know it's a big deal with the progressives trying to deal with it, but I'm just bringing you back to the technology that we need to look at.
[38:32.490 --> 38:39.810]  And, of course, there was no criminal investigation, and the FBI sets up the next sets of terrorists, et cetera, et cetera.
[38:39.930 --> 38:44.990]  So I think we need to get fundamental, and I appreciate you hearing me out on that.
[38:45.130 --> 38:45.530]  Okay.
[38:46.290 --> 38:46.690]  Thanks.
[38:46.830 --> 38:47.530]  Thanks for your call.
[38:47.690 --> 38:51.810]  Yes, we could talk about 9-11 forever, I guess, but let's not.
[38:52.250 --> 38:53.090]  Let's take another phone call.
[38:53.170 --> 38:53.710]  Oh, good evening.
[38:53.710 --> 38:54.810]  You're on Off the Hook.
[38:55.710 --> 38:56.610]  Oh, it's a tone.
[38:56.810 --> 38:57.030]  Okay.
[38:57.030 --> 38:57.110]  Okay.
[38:57.770 --> 39:00.250]  A tone has somehow called us, and a horrible tone has left us.
[39:01.350 --> 39:03.190]  212-209-2900.
[39:03.270 --> 39:04.470]  The program is off the hook.
[39:04.670 --> 39:07.950]  We're here on a special Christmas edition for the next 20 minutes or so.
[39:09.590 --> 39:11.730]  And interesting points being raised, don't you think, Bernie?
[39:12.270 --> 39:12.910]  I do.
[39:13.110 --> 39:13.530]  I do.
[39:13.690 --> 39:29.150]  And I'm heartened to hear a lot of just lay people calling in that aren't necessarily technologists, but are really warming to these ideas that are being floated about what's really going on in society and whether it's a good idea or not.
[39:29.650 --> 39:41.010]  And as Ed Snowden said in his Christmas message today, people need to know what our governments are doing and say, yes, this is okay, or no, this isn't.
[39:41.050 --> 39:47.790]  When you have secret laws that are being reviewed by secret courts, there is no public oversight.
[39:48.610 --> 39:49.010]  Absolutely.
[39:49.270 --> 39:49.450]  Absolutely.
[39:49.750 --> 39:52.130]  And that's what's going on, and that's not healthy for our democracy.
[39:52.370 --> 39:52.590]  All right.
[39:52.610 --> 39:54.670]  We have a whole bunch of phone calls now, so let's try and get to them.
[39:54.670 --> 39:55.090]  Good evening.
[39:55.290 --> 39:56.450]  You're on off the hook.
[39:56.710 --> 39:57.210]  Hey there.
[39:57.270 --> 39:57.830]  How are you?
[39:57.910 --> 39:58.430]  Good evening.
[39:58.850 --> 39:59.250]  Good evening.
[39:59.450 --> 40:00.310]  And I thank you.
[40:00.690 --> 40:01.930]  May I make a comment?
[40:02.230 --> 40:02.630]  Please.
[40:02.630 --> 40:03.370]  Okay.
[40:04.010 --> 40:04.690]  Yes.
[40:04.830 --> 40:15.790]  I'd like to just tail off on the call before the previous call, the gentleman who was cut off, not cut off, but disconnected.
[40:16.010 --> 40:16.190]  Yes.
[40:16.330 --> 40:16.710]  Because I don't know.
[40:17.430 --> 40:29.150]  Bottom line, privacy, children will never know what privacy is in the future, and I'd say that future being perhaps five years or less.
[40:29.150 --> 40:29.150]  Yes.
[40:29.790 --> 40:43.430]  I am, where I live currently, I've noted that one day, about three weeks ago, I noted all of these white trucks just running around and putting up wires.
[40:43.810 --> 40:44.170]  Okay.
[40:44.430 --> 41:09.410]  And those wires, I asked the gentleman, and they're connected to the schools, and he said that it's a system in which if there's an emergency, the schools will be able to reach out and send information or get internet service better.
[41:09.410 --> 41:14.930]  And I said, that doesn't seem the answer.
[41:15.150 --> 41:28.670]  I said, because the bottom line is, first of all, the schools in this area have, they all are on, have internet on, yeah, they have internet service.
[41:28.970 --> 41:31.150]  Yeah, I don't think you need white trucks to make it better.
[41:31.250 --> 41:34.470]  And, you know, and they weren't Verizon because they weren't marked.
[41:35.170 --> 41:38.270]  Now, I noted one thing within the school system.
[41:39.030 --> 41:52.510]  I went in, and a couple of Mondays ago, they tried to get into my email, found out that if I got into my email, I would have to give this password.
[41:52.510 --> 42:18.970]  But before giving the password, although I had a password already, I would have to agree to the agreement that I would allow my profile to be online with Google and that anyone who had, who was searching Google would be able to, of course, come in and come directly into the school system.
[42:19.210 --> 42:26.570]  But since I had my email in school, they would also be allowed to go into my personal account.
[42:26.570 --> 42:29.370]  Yeah, these are the things you have to watch out for.
[42:29.610 --> 42:32.770]  These little agreements that you have to sign on to in order to get a service.
[42:33.150 --> 42:40.130]  But, you know, the irony, and this is just to tail off on what the gentleman said, I did not agree.
[42:40.470 --> 42:42.990]  But that means now I have no email.
[42:44.090 --> 42:46.270]  Okay, so you're forced into a situation.
[42:46.510 --> 42:56.390]  Just like in paying, if you wanted to pay a bill, if you sent a check, the check is electronically deposited.
[42:56.830 --> 42:59.510]  You don't get a copy of that check.
[42:59.510 --> 43:09.350]  You don't get anything back from the bank in which you purchased the check, except for the acknowledgement that the payment was made.
[43:09.610 --> 43:15.730]  Okay, because you're not receiving any notices of non-payment.
[43:15.730 --> 43:29.830]  Now, if you should say, well, I, which I have, I would like to have a copy of that payment, you don't go to the bank where, in essence, you may have ordered the checks from.
[43:30.110 --> 43:37.130]  You have to go to the company that cashed the check, and they tell you you did not sign an agreement.
[43:37.570 --> 43:41.210]  So, therefore, they don't have to produce that.
[43:41.530 --> 43:42.470]  So you're caught.
[43:42.770 --> 43:43.290]  Interesting.
[43:43.290 --> 43:47.170]  You know, I mean, it can go on and on.
[43:48.830 --> 43:58.530]  Automatic access to your accounts, your banking accounts, whether you approve or not, whether you've paid your bills on time or not, they can do this.
[43:59.650 --> 44:03.850]  So, as far as, you know, what was it, 1984?
[44:04.430 --> 44:04.690]  Mm-hmm.
[44:04.810 --> 44:05.610]  No, no, no, no.
[44:05.770 --> 44:09.930]  Yes, 1984 is here, well and well alive.
[44:09.930 --> 44:16.090]  And one more thing I'd like to say, okay, they have these things called smart meters.
[44:16.390 --> 44:18.790]  They meter your home.
[44:19.070 --> 44:27.630]  They are, to me, it's like a spy device because they know when you're in, they know when you're out.
[44:29.090 --> 44:35.130]  I mean, I have even been in a situation where, as soon as I open my door, my phone rings.
[44:35.290 --> 44:35.630]  Yeah.
[44:35.870 --> 44:38.130]  That's to let me know that, hey, I'm watching you.
[44:38.430 --> 44:38.610]  Yeah.
[44:38.790 --> 44:44.150]  And you know, what's weird is a lot of people welcome this kind of intrusion as a convenience.
[44:44.150 --> 44:52.470]  Wow, okay, so my house will greet me when I come home because it knows where I am and people will know when they can reach me and where I am.
[44:52.630 --> 44:58.790]  And that way I'm always out of danger and people know my whereabouts and anonymity is bad and privacy is dead.
[44:59.150 --> 45:04.430]  And privacy is something that people are now so afraid to advocate for.
[45:04.650 --> 45:09.730]  They won't speak up for fear that something is going to happen to them.
[45:09.730 --> 45:20.690]  When someone has the ability to see when you're in, when you're out, who's at your house, where you go, okay, then they control your life.
[45:20.830 --> 45:23.450]  They control where you work.
[45:24.010 --> 45:33.810]  They mandate that you do certain things or be part of certain activities without your consent.
[45:34.450 --> 45:39.630]  So, I mean, hey, 1984, yeah, it's here.
[45:39.730 --> 45:45.090]  And it's scary, but, you know, the question is, yes, we should stand.
[45:45.350 --> 45:50.110]  We should demand our privacy and fight for it.
[45:50.170 --> 45:53.010]  But how long can you do that?
[45:53.010 --> 46:18.690]  And if you're just a little person, you can be wiped out within a twinkle of the eye because certain things, just as they can observe how you move, where you move, they can also make it so that certain things appear to be this or appear to be that, whereupon you'll be subject to any and all types of harassment.
[46:18.870 --> 46:19.150]  Right.
[46:19.250 --> 46:28.970]  At the same time, though, the individual has the ultimate power, and we've seen that this year, the power of the individual, people to stand up and challenge the system and let other individuals know.
[46:28.970 --> 46:35.830]  So, and you raise many good points, but that's one point that I think we should never forget is that we all have this power someplace.
[46:36.010 --> 46:36.650]  Thanks so much for your call.
[46:36.750 --> 46:40.230]  We have a bunch of others we'd like to get to, and let's get to this one over here.
[46:40.570 --> 46:40.930]  Good evening.
[46:41.090 --> 46:41.830]  You're on Off the Hook.
[46:43.510 --> 46:44.310]  Turn down your radio.
[46:45.750 --> 46:46.370]  Yes, hi.
[46:47.130 --> 46:49.110]  Yeah, you've got to turn down your radio and speak up, please.
[46:49.830 --> 46:50.230]  Okay.
[46:50.770 --> 46:51.090]  Go ahead.
[46:52.190 --> 46:53.410]  Yeah, are you on the air?
[46:53.550 --> 46:54.370]  You're on the air right now.
[46:55.150 --> 46:55.630]  Oh, hi.
[46:55.730 --> 46:56.510]  This is Jason.
[46:57.650 --> 46:59.290]  I'm from Baton Island.
[46:59.450 --> 46:59.750]  Okay.
[46:59.950 --> 47:11.770]  And in regards to Snowden and the revelations of NSA spying on American citizens, there was also revelations made whistleblower to Al W.
[47:11.970 --> 47:19.750]  So speak about the electronic low-magnetic frequency synthetic telepathy surveillance onto Americans.
[47:20.030 --> 47:26.290]  And I have to say that the government, it's like the Norbert laws, metaphorically.
[47:26.470 --> 47:31.350]  They are parasitizing the people that we need to overthrow this government.
[47:32.010 --> 47:43.510]  Write a new constitution, six branches of government, not three, one branch on the Internet, 120 million people paid $69,000 a year.
[47:44.290 --> 47:47.490]  And, you know, march on Washington, take the government over.
[47:47.730 --> 47:53.150]  We can elect the new government on the Internet and then march on Washington and take the government over.
[47:53.330 --> 47:56.130]  And there's also issues of trillions of dollars.
[47:56.130 --> 48:02.010]  Do you know there's a $32 trillion UBF Switzerland unpaid income taxes?
[48:02.210 --> 48:03.390]  That should be confiscated.
[48:03.610 --> 48:10.390]  And in addition to the $32 trillion, there is minimally $125 trillion.
[48:10.930 --> 48:12.530]  That's $125 trillion.
[48:12.810 --> 48:26.230]  You know, $90 trillion in addition to the $32 trillion that we could confiscate from the corporate state or ExxonMobil, ExxonMobil, Chevron, Texaco, ConocoPhillips, Big Oil, Big Media, J.T.
[48:26.250 --> 48:31.750]  Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Wall Street, etc.
[48:32.290 --> 48:34.250]  And so this is what we should do.
[48:34.470 --> 48:42.310]  We should overthrow this government, write a new constitution, six branches of government, and electing the government and march on Washington.
[48:42.470 --> 48:44.370]  Did you say elect a new government on the Internet?
[48:45.010 --> 48:45.750]  Excuse me?
[48:45.930 --> 48:48.750]  Did you say we should elect a new government on the Internet?
[48:49.970 --> 48:50.610]  Yeah.
[48:51.070 --> 48:51.970]  How would that work?
[48:53.190 --> 48:53.830]  Okay.
[48:54.230 --> 49:05.290]  Well, first, one branch, 120 million people, and then we can ask the public on WBAR radio nationwide to put their names in to be elected.
[49:05.550 --> 49:13.070]  And we can have a national vote on the Internet to elect one branch, 120 million people.
[49:13.290 --> 49:17.190]  We can have one branch be an executive branch or a transcendental branch.
[49:17.190 --> 49:24.530]  We can have a third branch of what I proposed, three million people, okay, which would be a popular branch.
[49:24.750 --> 49:32.050]  We can have a fourth branch of a thousand, like a thousand professor branch, which would replace the U.S.
[49:32.150 --> 49:32.390]  Senate.
[49:32.830 --> 49:34.910]  That branch could be elected.
[49:34.910 --> 49:47.650]  And a sixth branch of 4,500 that would replace the House of Representatives and put their names up and the people could vote on this government, this new government.
[49:48.030 --> 49:49.430]  So that's six branches of government.
[49:51.110 --> 49:58.650]  And a constitutional branch of 3,000 members that would replace the U.S.
[49:58.770 --> 49:59.350]  Supreme Court.
[49:59.350 --> 50:01.190]  Do you have a computer talking to you there?
[50:02.030 --> 50:02.550]  Excuse me?
[50:02.670 --> 50:04.010]  Sounds like you have a computer talking to you.
[50:06.330 --> 50:08.270]  Um, well, um...
[50:08.270 --> 50:10.570]  I thought I heard a GPS computer talking to you.
[50:11.110 --> 50:12.450]  No, computer, no, no.
[50:12.650 --> 50:13.250]  I'm sorry.
[50:13.450 --> 50:14.230]  I'm having...
[50:14.230 --> 50:16.390]  The point is...
[50:16.390 --> 50:17.850]  That's a computer, yeah.
[50:18.410 --> 50:19.430]  That's a GPS computer.
[50:19.570 --> 50:20.270]  I recognize it.
[50:20.990 --> 50:21.390]  Okay.
[50:21.430 --> 50:21.590]  Do you think?
[50:21.890 --> 50:25.510]  I could swear I hear a GPS computer giving you directions while you drive.
[50:26.230 --> 50:27.410]  Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
[50:27.630 --> 50:28.430]  I'm in the car.
[50:29.030 --> 50:30.170]  All right, so I...
[50:30.170 --> 50:31.070]  It's rather ironic.
[50:31.290 --> 50:32.030]  Wouldn't you say, Emmanuel?
[50:32.430 --> 50:35.850]  I'm having a hard time hearing you, but that's basically my comment.
[50:36.170 --> 50:39.210]  You know, if I'm on the app, thank you so much for...
[50:39.210 --> 50:46.270]  All right, well, take exit 9A and we'll mull over your thoughts and, you know, but keep thinking of ideas like this and get the word out.
[50:46.410 --> 50:49.350]  It sounds interesting and more people should be doing that.
[50:50.430 --> 50:51.810]  212-209-2900.
[50:51.930 --> 50:53.530]  Yeah, Bernie, it was kind of ironic that...
[50:54.650 --> 50:55.370]  He's taking...
[50:55.370 --> 50:59.550]  He's trusting his life with some computer and is telling him where to go.
[51:00.530 --> 51:02.210]  A computer programmed by humans.
[51:03.130 --> 51:05.930]  But, yeah, GPS computers can be tricky.
[51:06.330 --> 51:08.150]  You just kind of give them a little bit of leeway.
[51:08.310 --> 51:11.250]  And by the way, people forget that the GPS satellites are controlled by the U.S.
[51:11.350 --> 51:11.690]  military.
[51:12.910 --> 51:17.270]  Yeah, so, you know, they could just lead us all into a ditch someplace if they felt like it.
[51:17.270 --> 51:19.930]  I mean, I'm not saying that's going to happen, but I just think people should be aware of that.
[51:20.270 --> 51:20.630]  Yeah.
[51:20.630 --> 51:22.490]  And they can turn it off whenever they want.
[51:22.930 --> 51:29.630]  Well, we're after GPS adventures with driving your car and being directed at all kinds of crazy places.
[51:29.830 --> 51:32.290]  Our phone number, 212-209-2900.
[51:32.290 --> 51:34.350]  A lot of interesting thoughts out there, don't you think?
[51:34.790 --> 51:35.150]  Very.
[51:35.350 --> 51:38.690]  I mean, we're hearing some very diverse viewpoints.
[51:38.770 --> 51:40.170]  I like sitting back and listening.
[51:40.550 --> 51:44.270]  Yeah, it's important, I think, to do that, to hear what people out there have to say.
[51:44.270 --> 51:46.650]  And WBAI is the place to do that.
[51:46.850 --> 51:48.450]  212-209-2900.
[51:48.630 --> 51:49.430]  Let's see who else is out there.
[51:49.570 --> 51:49.870]  Good evening.
[51:49.990 --> 51:50.850]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:52.150 --> 51:53.470]  This is BAI?
[51:53.630 --> 51:54.210]  Yes, it is.
[51:54.230 --> 51:54.890]  You're on the air.
[51:57.210 --> 51:59.250]  But not for much longer, unless you say something.
[52:00.070 --> 52:00.350]  Yes.
[52:00.350 --> 52:05.930]  I'd like to speak about the, what are the topics, sir?
[52:06.570 --> 52:08.370]  Okay, you've got to listen to the show, okay?
[52:08.550 --> 52:10.850]  If you can't call us and ask us what the topics are.
[52:11.610 --> 52:12.270]  Boy, oh boy.
[52:12.790 --> 52:21.630]  212-209-2900 is our phone number for people who are actually listening to the radio or listening to the internet, wherever you happen to be.
[52:22.470 --> 52:25.250]  Did you follow this whole Target thing, Bernie?
[52:25.430 --> 52:29.990]  The Target credit cards being accessed?
[52:29.990 --> 52:41.510]  Yeah, reportedly about 40 million credit cards info was copied by all the medias, all the mainstream media reporting.
[52:41.650 --> 52:42.810]  It was hackers, hackers did this.
[52:42.950 --> 52:44.450]  Well, no, thieves were thieves.
[52:45.010 --> 52:45.470]  Yeah, absolutely.
[52:45.750 --> 52:46.490]  Why didn't they just use the term thieves?
[52:47.190 --> 53:00.010]  But, you know, if you had read what hackers said, I know we ran an article about Target security some time ago, and I don't know if it's the same weakness they had, but they certainly didn't seem to be doing a very good job protecting their customers.
[53:00.090 --> 53:01.250]  You said, what, 40 million?
[53:01.490 --> 53:02.630]  40 million, and not...
[53:02.630 --> 53:04.370]  Isn't that like everybody who's ever walked through a Target?
[53:05.090 --> 53:09.530]  Well, apparently this was like for a week or two from like Black Friday until recently.
[53:10.370 --> 53:12.910]  So, you know, their peak shopping period.
[53:13.130 --> 53:23.050]  What really concerns me is, besides poor security, is they were apparently keeping information that they had no business keeping, like the CVV code in the back of your card, the security code.
[53:23.110 --> 53:24.130]  Yeah, you're not supposed to keep that.
[53:24.130 --> 53:26.790]  They were keeping that information on file.
[53:27.150 --> 53:29.350]  And there's absolutely no reason Target should have been...
[53:29.350 --> 53:30.330]  There's a bunch of lawsuits.
[53:31.170 --> 53:35.710]  There's a bunch of states, the feds and a bunch of states, are jumping in on Target to sue them.
[53:35.790 --> 53:47.150]  I think there's federal law that says they have to, a state of federal law that says they have to pay $90 fine for every person's card that was affected by this, which is going to be billions of dollars.
[53:47.350 --> 54:00.410]  And that's not even including all the civil lawsuits that people are rightfully filing against Target for not only having egregiously black security, but for keeping information about transactions that shouldn't even be kept, like the CVV code on the back of your card.
[54:00.550 --> 54:00.870]  Absolutely.
[54:01.270 --> 54:11.250]  One thing that, as a merchant, I've learned is that within two years, 2015, we are going to be seeing chip cards, chip and pin cards, in this country.
[54:11.250 --> 54:15.230]  It's going to be a mandatory thing for merchants.
[54:15.890 --> 54:20.650]  So finally, finally, we're catching up with the rest of a lot of the world.
[54:21.250 --> 54:24.690]  And maybe these problems will go away, but maybe they'll be replaced by other problems.
[54:25.170 --> 54:27.630]  I'm curious if this kind of thing happens in Europe very often.
[54:28.390 --> 54:29.090]  Probably not.
[54:29.350 --> 54:38.110]  What I've been reading is that this probably would not have happened had we been using the chip and pin system in this country that Europeans have been enjoying for decades.
[54:39.190 --> 54:41.410]  Now, I don't have one of those cards myself.
[54:41.410 --> 54:42.150]  Some people do.
[54:42.690 --> 54:51.650]  But I believe the way it works is, well, first of all, when you go shopping someplace, if you're in a restaurant, say, in Europe, they come to your table with a little handheld machine.
[54:51.650 --> 54:55.950]  They don't take your card away into a back room where they write it down and copy it and all that.
[54:56.010 --> 55:02.490]  No, they come to you, you insert your card into the little handheld machine, and I believe you enter a pin.
[55:02.490 --> 55:02.910]  Is that right?
[55:03.090 --> 55:03.970]  Yes, that's how it works.
[55:04.110 --> 55:05.110]  Okay, and that's it.
[55:05.510 --> 55:06.450]  No signature, right?
[55:07.610 --> 55:09.110]  No, you don't need that.
[55:09.230 --> 55:11.090]  I don't know if they have a...
[55:11.090 --> 55:14.510]  like in this country where you have to sign on this little tablet.
[55:14.730 --> 55:15.850]  I don't think they do that in Europe.
[55:15.850 --> 55:17.030]  I've never had to sign anything.
[55:17.250 --> 55:22.910]  I just entered my pin code after inserting my card into the thing that the server hands me.
[55:23.870 --> 55:24.390]  Yes.
[55:24.610 --> 55:29.990]  So there are changes coming, and hopefully these changes will be dealt with intelligently.
[55:30.150 --> 55:38.170]  For as long as we've been on the air, we have been trying to let people know this is a good way to implement security.
[55:38.170 --> 55:39.810]  This is a bad way to implement security.
[55:39.810 --> 55:54.610]  And we just never have any lack of stories of people and organizations such as Target using things in a bad way and not taking their customers' privacy and security seriously.
[55:54.850 --> 56:00.750]  And of course, we have so many stories of governments that definitely don't take that privacy very seriously.
[56:01.230 --> 56:11.410]  So as technology changes, there will be more challenges, more potential holes for criminals and governments and corporations to exploit.
[56:11.930 --> 56:18.550]  And I think we'll be the source to let people know what is secure and what is not secure.
[56:19.050 --> 56:22.190]  So hopefully we'll be able to do that in the years ahead.
[56:22.710 --> 56:24.630]  We are pretty much out of time.
[56:24.930 --> 56:26.510]  Sorry to those people we didn't get to.
[56:27.150 --> 56:34.370]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address if you want to write to us or comment on anything that we have to say.
[56:34.570 --> 56:47.650]  And again, to let people know, if you're not in Germany, not able to attend the Chaos Communication Congress, the annual hacker convention that takes place every year in Hamburg, Germany, you can watch it online.
[56:47.650 --> 56:55.450]  And it's a great way to spend those days between Christmas and New Year's, four days starting on the 27th and running until the 30th.
[56:55.450 --> 57:05.730]  Go to https colon slash slash events dot ccc dot de slash congress slash 2013 slash wiki slash streams.
[57:05.950 --> 57:12.610]  And you'll find all kinds of talks there, all kinds of talks that will fill up your day.
[57:12.610 --> 57:15.710]  And they're all going to be streamed and archived.
[57:16.390 --> 57:17.770]  Bernie, I want to wish you the best.
[57:18.230 --> 57:19.030]  Same to you, Emmanuel.
[57:19.310 --> 57:25.150]  And we are going to go out with something actually you found for us from the ACLU, a particular Christmas song.
[57:25.270 --> 57:26.310]  You want to tell us anything about this?
[57:26.350 --> 57:26.750]  Oh, goody.
[57:26.890 --> 57:27.670]  Yeah, it's sort of...
[57:27.670 --> 57:35.530]  It's a merry, jovial spoof about NSA surveillance that our friends at the Electronic Frontier Foundation put together.
[57:35.670 --> 57:37.210]  And it's a fun listen.
[57:37.370 --> 57:38.450]  So thanks for picking that tonight.
[57:38.650 --> 57:39.070]  All right.
[57:39.670 --> 57:44.350]  We'll see you next week on New Year's Day for another action-packed edition of Off the Hook.
[57:44.510 --> 57:46.570]  Till then, Emmanuel, have a good night.
[57:48.070 --> 57:50.390]  Ah, the holiday season.
[57:50.990 --> 57:52.510]  A time for celebration.
[57:52.510 --> 57:53.610]  Magic.
[57:54.110 --> 57:56.410]  And spending time with the people you love.
[57:57.070 --> 58:01.130]  But don't forget who's watching to make sure you're not being naughty.
[58:01.950 --> 58:04.070]  You better watch out.
[58:04.210 --> 58:05.650]  You better not Skype.
[58:06.030 --> 58:07.530]  You better log out.
[58:07.690 --> 58:09.230]  Yeah, you better not type.
[58:09.810 --> 58:13.870]  The NSA is coming to town.
[58:16.290 --> 58:18.250]  You're making a list.
[58:18.470 --> 58:19.910]  They're checking it twice.
[58:20.250 --> 58:23.450]  They're watching almost every electronic device.
[58:23.450 --> 58:28.210]  The NSA is coming to town.
[58:30.030 --> 58:33.490]  They see when you are sleeping.
[58:34.050 --> 58:36.790]  They hear while you're awake.
[58:37.170 --> 58:41.290]  They know who you call and who you write.
[58:41.530 --> 58:43.970]  So we craft for goodness sake.
[58:44.610 --> 58:48.510]  With Congress in the dark and a cloak and a cloak and dagger coat.
[58:48.530 --> 58:52.010]  We're looking for answers and they're coming up short.
[58:52.270 --> 58:56.610]  The NSA is coming to town.
[58:58.870 --> 59:00.950]  They're making a list.
[59:01.190 --> 59:02.550]  Checking it twice.
[59:02.970 --> 59:06.130]  They're watching almost every electronic device.
[59:06.550 --> 59:10.850]  The NSA is coming to town.
[59:10.850 --> 59:16.170]  The NSA is coming to town.
[59:16.810 --> 59:21.490]  The NSA is coming to town.
[59:24.690 --> 59:29.790]  You wouldn't let government agents spy on your special holiday moments in person.
[59:30.410 --> 59:33.550]  Why are we letting them do it in the digital world?
[59:34.290 --> 59:38.690]  Help us end the NSA's unlawful spying programs.
[59:39.030 --> 59:40.350]  Take action now.