[00:00.000 --> 00:01.020]  Children, this is Rev.
[00:01.220 --> 00:04.180]  Billy from the Church of Stop Shopping.
[00:04.520 --> 00:11.180]  You're listening to WBAI FM 99.5 New York City.
[00:11.360 --> 00:13.560]  It's listener-sponsored, children.
[00:13.800 --> 00:15.300]  It's commercial-free.
[00:15.980 --> 00:18.400]  Ooh, changeloo-ya.
[00:20.480 --> 00:21.640]  And that is the truth.
[00:21.640 --> 00:23.760]  You are listening to WBAI New York.
[00:23.920 --> 00:28.860]  The time is just about 7 o'clock, and that means it's time for Off the Hook.
[00:34.030 --> 00:38.430]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:39.450 --> 00:43.910]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:44.630 --> 00:46.790]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:49.570 --> 00:52.170]  Bum-diddly-bum for the best, expect the worst.
[00:52.850 --> 00:54.710]  I hope that's understood.
[00:54.910 --> 00:55.710]  Bum-diddly-bum!
[02:22.070 --> 02:24.530]  And the very good information by the program is Off the Hook.
[02:24.650 --> 02:27.770]  I'm Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:27.770 --> 02:30.070]  I'm joined in the studio tonight by Rob T.
[02:30.250 --> 02:30.690]  Firefly.
[02:30.910 --> 02:31.250]  Good evening.
[02:31.850 --> 02:35.530]  And on the phone is Mike.
[02:35.790 --> 02:36.230]  Mike.
[02:36.770 --> 02:37.210]  Hello.
[02:37.470 --> 02:37.950]  How are you doing?
[02:38.370 --> 02:39.390]  You're supposed to be here.
[02:39.450 --> 02:39.850]  Where are you?
[02:40.910 --> 02:43.130]  I made it back to New York.
[02:43.330 --> 02:45.850]  As our listeners might remember, I was in Germany.
[02:45.970 --> 02:49.710]  But I made it back to New York a bit too late to make it to the studio.
[02:50.810 --> 02:54.270]  I guess you just didn't plan your travel itinerary properly.
[02:55.210 --> 02:55.650]  Obviously.
[02:55.650 --> 02:58.110]  I planned it, you know, just in time.
[02:58.270 --> 03:00.470]  But, you know, airplanes don't work that way.
[03:00.630 --> 03:01.050]  Yeah.
[03:01.150 --> 03:01.550]  So I hear.
[03:01.650 --> 03:04.990]  Well, any adventures getting back into this country?
[03:05.790 --> 03:08.530]  You know, I have to say I was prepared for drama.
[03:08.530 --> 03:13.070]  But the customs and immigration people, the line was very short.
[03:13.070 --> 03:15.150]  And they didn't ask me any questions.
[03:15.450 --> 03:19.410]  And it was, I wouldn't say pleasant, but tolerable.
[03:21.310 --> 03:21.870]  Uh-huh.
[03:22.770 --> 03:23.350]  I'm sorry.
[03:23.450 --> 03:24.430]  I didn't hear anything you just said.
[03:24.490 --> 03:25.490]  We're trying to get Bernie back.
[03:25.770 --> 03:27.770]  I accidentally disconnected him when I connected you.
[03:28.490 --> 03:28.930]  Oh.
[03:30.190 --> 03:34.310]  I'm just saying I wish the story, there was more of a story almost to tell.
[03:35.230 --> 03:39.870]  They actually asked me more questions when I flew to Germany than when I returned from it.
[03:40.010 --> 03:42.550]  Wait, they asked you a question when you went to Germany?
[03:43.070 --> 03:49.730]  Yeah, they asked me how long I was staying and why I was there and if I would be visiting any other countries other than Germany.
[03:49.730 --> 03:52.730]  It took, you know, almost maybe 20 seconds.
[03:53.970 --> 03:54.290]  Wow.
[03:54.390 --> 03:57.150]  Well, that's unusually long, actually, going into Germany.
[03:57.550 --> 03:58.170]  It is.
[03:58.510 --> 04:09.430]  But I know we're trying, we're engaged in a dialogue with a lot of Europeans right now, trying to convince them that it's not the hell that they think it is to come to the United States and go through customs.
[04:09.590 --> 04:10.950]  Yeah, it's a bit of a hassle.
[04:11.470 --> 04:12.870]  You'll get asked a few questions.
[04:13.070 --> 04:30.650]  But if you don't say anything overly suspicious, like, you know, yeah, I'm here to buy lockpicks or, you know, implying that you're working, accepting money for services, or going to a really cool hacker conference where all kinds of controversial topics are going to be discussed,
[04:30.850 --> 04:32.630]  including airline security, etc., etc.
[04:32.630 --> 04:44.630]  You know, if you just say, I'm here for tourism, I'm here to look around and see the United States and the boring answers, you know, there's no reason in the world to try and impress a customs agent.
[04:47.350 --> 04:53.730]  They're impressed by very different things, I think, than hackers, and you won't succeed if you want to impress them.
[04:53.730 --> 04:59.250]  And, you know, it's a bit different for you and for me as U.S.
[04:59.270 --> 05:00.690]  citizens, they have to let us in.
[05:00.690 --> 05:05.970]  But most Europeans can get in.
[05:06.110 --> 05:13.990]  And I do feel a bit bad for people from less favored countries who have to go through the whole visa process and that.
[05:14.210 --> 05:19.630]  But, you know, we wish it was easier, but it's still not very hard.
[05:19.850 --> 05:26.350]  The hardest part usually is standing in line because you're just off the flight and you want to sit down and you have to stand in line for an hour.
[05:26.350 --> 05:28.630]  But, as I said today, I didn't even have that.
[05:29.070 --> 05:31.490]  Well, since we talked to you last week, you were in Berlin.
[05:31.910 --> 05:34.630]  Have you been to any other interesting places since then?
[05:36.910 --> 05:40.170]  Berlin's pretty interesting, but it's the only place I've been since then.
[05:40.570 --> 05:40.950]  Okay.
[05:41.050 --> 05:44.710]  Were there any other interesting activities going on post-CCC?
[05:45.450 --> 05:52.690]  I mean, there were a number of people who were still in town after the CCC, so I saw a bunch of them.
[05:55.570 --> 06:00.990]  And, I don't know, if you want to hear about my tourist activities, I went to the Stasi, the former Stasi prison.
[06:02.550 --> 06:02.870]  Okay.
[06:03.010 --> 06:03.650]  That must have been fun.
[06:04.370 --> 06:08.090]  It was, well, fun maybe not the right word, but it was interesting.
[06:08.530 --> 06:08.650]  Okay.
[06:08.710 --> 06:09.630]  I don't know why Bernie is talking.
[06:09.810 --> 06:11.070]  Bernie, don't talk until we introduce you.
[06:12.350 --> 06:14.330]  Continue telling us about the Stasi Museum?
[06:15.730 --> 06:27.310]  I mean, as people know, there used to be a repressive secret police force in East Germany, and it ceased to exist in the very late 80s, early 90s.
[06:27.890 --> 06:28.870]  Or did it?
[06:30.090 --> 06:31.770]  It did, in that country.
[06:32.110 --> 06:32.430]  Uh-huh.
[06:32.530 --> 06:34.230]  Or maybe they just called it something else.
[06:35.570 --> 06:45.890]  You know, the kind of things they were doing in this, it's a remand prison, which is a term that people think is English, but I've never heard before.
[06:46.630 --> 06:53.970]  That means you would go there, people would be sent there before being sentenced to be interrogated.
[06:54.070 --> 06:59.310]  And they had this very complicated system of isolation, so no two prisoners would ever see each other.
[06:59.310 --> 07:11.890]  And I guess in the early days, they used to torture people by putting them in particularly warm rooms or by making them stand in water.
[07:13.470 --> 07:19.110]  And they stopped that, but just went for the sort of psychological techniques.
[07:19.550 --> 07:26.410]  And I don't know, I wish I could say that this is all gone from the world, but it is not.
[07:26.410 --> 07:37.770]  So, it's one of the interesting things about it, though, is that the entity that happened to run this particular prison really did pretty suddenly cease to exist.
[07:37.870 --> 07:49.350]  So, a lot of it is still as it was or has been, you know, with the help of some former prisoners, restored to that state, so you can really see exactly what was going on.
[07:49.690 --> 07:53.770]  Well, it's definitely something worth visiting if you find yourself over there.
[07:53.770 --> 07:55.870]  Joining us right now is Bernie S.
[07:56.030 --> 07:56.910]  down in Philadelphia.
[07:57.130 --> 07:57.830]  Bernie, are you there?
[07:58.470 --> 07:59.450]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[07:59.450 --> 08:00.110]  Happy New Year.
[08:00.190 --> 08:03.650]  And I visited the Stasi Museum a few years ago myself.
[08:03.650 --> 08:04.490]  It was pretty interesting.
[08:05.030 --> 08:08.150]  Before we go any further, we need to do some testing here.
[08:08.330 --> 08:10.370]  I have you on line one, I have Mike on line two.
[08:10.390 --> 08:12.110]  Are you guys both able to hear each other?
[08:12.770 --> 08:13.990]  I hear Mike perfectly.
[08:14.670 --> 08:15.070]  Perfectly.
[08:15.150 --> 08:16.950]  Mike, are you hearing Bernie perfectly?
[08:17.450 --> 08:17.890]  No.
[08:18.870 --> 08:25.890]  I can hear that there's, like, some very faint buzzing that I assume is Bernie, but it's not loud enough to be able to make out the words.
[08:26.090 --> 08:30.430]  So, this week you can't hear Bernie, but Bernie can hear others.
[08:30.890 --> 08:31.330]  Okay.
[08:32.150 --> 08:32.590]  Interesting.
[08:34.210 --> 08:36.010]  Well, it's counter to what we were told.
[08:36.490 --> 08:37.930]  Part of the troubleshooting process.
[08:38.170 --> 08:44.770]  It's part of... well, I like to shoot something, that's for sure, and apparently we're not hitting trouble because the trouble remains week after week.
[08:44.770 --> 08:53.950]  So, okay, I'm sorry, Mike, you cannot hear Bernie, but, Mike, you're not going to be with us very long anyway because, well, for this reason, and you have other things that you must be doing.
[08:54.130 --> 08:55.330]  You do have a good phone connection, though.
[08:55.370 --> 08:57.970]  I must say I'm kind of surprised by that.
[08:57.970 --> 09:00.710]  You're all the way down in Lower Manhattan, right?
[09:01.450 --> 09:02.050]  It's true.
[09:02.270 --> 09:02.550]  Wow.
[09:02.750 --> 09:03.910]  Yes, it's like your next door.
[09:04.150 --> 09:04.750]  It's incredible.
[09:04.890 --> 09:08.650]  We're up here in Harlem, and it's an almost crystal clear connection.
[09:08.650 --> 09:11.050]  Not as good as when you were in Berlin, but okay.
[09:11.770 --> 09:15.910]  Well, it's the same hand set, of course, a different cellular card.
[09:16.130 --> 09:23.490]  And I tried to make some phone calls immediately from the airport, and I could not understand the person I was speaking to.
[09:23.710 --> 09:27.050]  But here in Lower Manhattan, phones are good.
[09:27.290 --> 09:27.570]  All right.
[09:27.690 --> 09:30.250]  Well, that's handy information to know.
[09:30.770 --> 09:32.870]  Anything else that you'd like to say to our listeners before we...
[09:33.470 --> 09:36.550]  It must be late where you are before we say goodnight.
[09:38.250 --> 09:39.190]  I don't think so.
[09:39.390 --> 09:44.830]  I'm sorry I couldn't be there in person, but I'll speak to you through microphones next week.
[09:44.970 --> 09:47.430]  Well, if you hop on the subway now, you'll be here by midnight, I think.
[09:48.570 --> 09:48.830]  Could be.
[09:48.850 --> 09:48.890]  You can try.
[09:49.390 --> 09:50.550]  It depends if you get the express.
[09:51.330 --> 09:51.950]  All right, Mike.
[09:52.090 --> 09:54.370]  We'll see you here in the studio next week.
[09:54.930 --> 09:55.350]  All right.
[09:55.430 --> 09:55.570]  Bye.
[09:55.750 --> 09:56.070]  All right.
[09:56.630 --> 10:01.410]  And that was our correspondent, Mike, making contact with us from downtown.
[10:02.710 --> 10:06.530]  And, Bernie, you might have trouble hearing other callers, so I'm sorry about that.
[10:06.950 --> 10:13.010]  We're trying everything we know how to do, and apart from disconnecting you over and over again, I don't know what else I can possibly try.
[10:13.250 --> 10:14.190]  Well, no, this is good.
[10:14.310 --> 10:27.930]  This is a good part of troubleshooting is often involves trial and error, and it sounds like you're doing the right thing, talking with the operations staff at WBAI, and it's something to do with the board and how the phone lines connect, and we're just trying to figure out what's causing it.
[10:27.930 --> 10:35.230]  And I didn't hear what Mike was saying while I was cut off, but did he say he was at the Stasi Museum in Berlin?
[10:35.410 --> 10:37.070]  That's exactly where he was, yes.
[10:37.390 --> 10:38.130]  That's what I assumed.
[10:38.210 --> 10:40.570]  I was there several years ago, and it was fascinating.
[10:40.950 --> 10:47.450]  And there's a really good film, if he hasn't mentioned it, that came out a few years ago called The Lives of Other People.
[10:48.710 --> 10:51.510]  It was produced in Germany, but it's a subtitle.
[10:51.590 --> 10:52.510]  It was released in the U.S.
[10:52.510 --> 10:53.910]  at mainstream theaters.
[10:54.190 --> 10:56.770]  It was a really fascinating view of how the Stasi operated.
[10:57.550 --> 10:59.310]  And it wasn't too Hollywoodized.
[10:59.570 --> 11:04.670]  It was, I mean, it was somewhat dramatic, but it was more realistic than I expected.
[11:05.890 --> 11:15.050]  And one of the things that occurred to me when I was at the Stasi Museum was a conversation I had with our old friend Bill S.F., who passed away a few years ago.
[11:16.670 --> 11:31.110]  And we were talking on the phone, and he was telling me how the East German telephone system and those in other East Bloc countries, this is in the late 80s, were designed from the ground up with wiretapping as an integral feature.
[11:31.690 --> 11:41.870]  And we were just, you know, appalled that that existed and how different that is to how things were here in the U.S.
[11:41.870 --> 11:55.370]  and finding out that things are far from that now here in the U.S., where it's required by law to have wiretapping as an integral feature of all central offices since CALEA was enacted in 1994.
[11:55.830 --> 12:03.870]  And now with all this NSA stuff, we probably have less telephone privacy than the folks in East Germany did 20 years ago.
[12:04.390 --> 12:05.810]  Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that.
[12:05.950 --> 12:14.490]  As technology improves, so does the capabilities to spy on us and on all kinds of entities.
[12:15.450 --> 12:17.750]  We have a lot of news that we want to get to today.
[12:17.950 --> 12:20.410]  So let's dive into some of it.
[12:20.570 --> 12:21.410]  You might have heard this.
[12:21.470 --> 12:22.630]  This has been all over the news today.
[12:23.850 --> 12:25.970]  It's the Christigate story.
[12:26.050 --> 12:29.070]  I'm calling it Christigate because it's Governor Christie of New Jersey.
[12:29.450 --> 12:31.530]  They're calling it Bridgegate or Trafficgate.
[12:31.650 --> 12:32.790]  And it's just, it's not as good.
[12:32.790 --> 12:36.430]  I think Christigate sounds because he's, he's implicated in this.
[12:36.450 --> 12:37.950]  You know, he, he really is.
[12:38.250 --> 12:43.390]  He, he recently came out and denied any knowledge, but you know, it's kind of hard to believe you have no knowledge of this kind of thing.
[12:43.930 --> 12:57.950]  Today, emails have emerged that purportedly show top aides to New Jersey Governor Chris Christie basically saying that lane closures, and it sounds ridiculous to be talking about this, but it's, it's true.
[12:58.110 --> 13:06.570]  Lane closures on the George Washington Bridge came about from a political vendetta against the mayor of Fort Lee, New Jersey.
[13:07.030 --> 13:15.130]  And because the mayor of Fort Lee, New Jersey is a Democrat who didn't endorse Chris Christie, which, you know, it's not that unusual for Democrats not to endorse Republicans.
[13:15.890 --> 13:23.970]  Because of that, these, these bridge, these lane closures on the bridge were ordered as some kind of a traffic study.
[13:24.490 --> 13:42.670]  And what emerged today, and what, what I find interesting about this whole thing is that how smart do you have to not be in order, in order to write something in email as a government official when you know, based on, well, Wienergate, for instance, can we,
[13:42.730 --> 13:53.550]  can we say that just from text messages or all kinds, all manner of, of revelations in the past involving politicians, somebody is going to find this at some point.
[13:53.710 --> 14:09.210]  So, this, this genius, Bridget Ann Kelly, who's Christie's Deputy Chief of Staff for Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs, I would imagine as of a day or so from now, she'll be the former Deputy Chief of Staff for Legislative and Intergovernmental Affairs.
[14:10.230 --> 14:19.870]  She emailed David Wildstein, then the highest level political appointee representing the state, the state at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
[14:20.930 --> 14:24.650]  And she said, time for some traffic problems in Fort Lee.
[14:24.850 --> 14:26.130]  I actually said this.
[14:26.590 --> 14:32.290]  And that communication happened about three weeks before those access lanes were closed in September.
[14:32.510 --> 14:39.910]  That caused all kinds of traffic problems on the New Jersey side of the nation's busiest bridge that crosses into New York.
[14:40.470 --> 14:42.190]  Wildstein replied, got it.
[14:42.550 --> 14:47.070]  And this, according to CNN, they obtained the emails.
[14:48.350 --> 14:53.830]  None of those cited in the report that they filed today responded for any comment.
[14:54.010 --> 14:55.290]  They were strangely quiet.
[14:55.430 --> 15:01.450]  And also, what's interesting is that Governor Christie canceled public appearances today.
[15:01.970 --> 15:10.850]  Now, that alone tells you something, tells you that there's a crisis going on and that they have to regroup and figure out, how are we going to respond to this?
[15:11.110 --> 15:20.150]  You know, if you're not at all involved and you go ahead with your day and you say, you know, you shrug your shoulders or whatever and say, I'm going to get to the bottom of this, but I'm telling you the truth right now.
[15:20.810 --> 15:28.970]  It's kind of suspicious when you cancel appearances and disappear from view for a while and then come forward with a statement.
[15:29.230 --> 15:30.910]  Just my opinion on that.
[15:32.510 --> 15:46.870]  Democrats have alleged that the lane closures were revenge against Fort Lee Mayor Mark Sokolich for not endorsing Christie in his reelection effort and the emails and text messages provide some evidence for that suspicion.
[15:47.930 --> 15:48.710]  There's more.
[15:48.890 --> 15:49.550]  There's a whole lot.
[15:49.650 --> 15:58.410]  But I just wanted to focus on what drives people today in public office to say things that implicate them in email.
[15:58.750 --> 16:04.690]  After all this NSA business going on, you know, there's more surveillance going on in the public eye as well.
[16:04.910 --> 16:15.730]  This is something that Freedom of Information, that the press, that the public will find out because by law you have to preserve all of this.
[16:15.910 --> 16:19.290]  And even when it's not by law, there are still other ways to get it back.
[16:19.290 --> 16:21.630]  If you're on Gmail, it's there forever.
[16:21.890 --> 16:23.470]  One way or another, it's there forever.
[16:23.630 --> 16:24.490]  Somebody will find it.
[16:24.550 --> 16:25.610]  Somebody will uncover it.
[16:26.210 --> 16:40.410]  So if you're going to do something of a criminal nature, and maybe they don't think it's a criminal nature, but if you're going to do something unsavory or stupid or something that can bring down the guy that you're working for, and this can bring down the guy they're working for,
[16:40.650 --> 16:48.990]  you might want to just rely on in-person conversations where smartphones are left behind, things like that.
[16:48.990 --> 16:52.530]  I mean, they don't think like criminals.
[16:52.530 --> 16:53.290]  I'll say that.
[16:53.450 --> 16:54.790]  So maybe that's a plus for them.
[16:55.430 --> 16:58.830]  Or maybe they think this is something that's acceptable.
[16:58.830 --> 17:00.070]  That's part of the rules of the game.
[17:00.130 --> 17:03.150]  It is part of the rules of the game because this kind of thing happens all the time.
[17:03.150 --> 17:05.870]  But it's a dangerous game to play.
[17:06.270 --> 17:07.490]  They block traffic.
[17:08.330 --> 17:09.510]  Ambulances couldn't get through.
[17:09.870 --> 17:11.330]  School kids weren't able to get to school.
[17:12.090 --> 17:13.870]  Massive delays, all kinds of problems.
[17:14.110 --> 17:14.830]  And why?
[17:14.930 --> 17:17.830]  Because of a stupid fight between two politicians.
[17:19.190 --> 17:20.290]  So, I don't know.
[17:20.510 --> 17:22.870]  I know, Bernie, things like that don't happen down in Philadelphia, do they?
[17:23.130 --> 17:23.590]  No, no.
[17:23.670 --> 17:25.130]  Philadelphia has no corruption or whatever.
[17:25.230 --> 17:28.390]  I'm reminded of a quote from Elliot Spitzer.
[17:28.530 --> 17:28.910]  Remember him?
[17:29.070 --> 17:29.490]  Oh, yeah.
[17:29.710 --> 17:30.110]  Spitzergate.
[17:31.430 --> 17:37.330]  Well, he was quoted while he was involved in the Attorney General's office and a prosecutor.
[17:37.590 --> 17:45.530]  He said, quote, Never talk when you can nod, and never nod when you can wink, and never write an email because it's death.
[17:45.710 --> 17:48.470]  You're giving prosecutors all the evidence we need.
[17:48.690 --> 17:49.390]  End quote.
[17:50.390 --> 17:50.710]  Absolutely.
[17:51.010 --> 18:03.410]  Apparently, the top-ranking officials in the Christie administration just thought they were just so immune from any oversight
[18:08.910 --> 18:10.430]  to plan this thing.
[18:10.530 --> 18:28.450]  I'm just going from what I'm reading in the newspapers, but I'm also reminded of Sarah Palin, who went outside her state's requirement that Alaska, when she was governor, to circumvent the requirement that they must use, all government state officials must use the official email address,
[18:28.690 --> 18:32.910]  email accounts, which are all that information is logged and made publicly available.
[18:32.930 --> 18:40.830]  She was using her own personal email account to do some things that were, you know, should have been under the public purview.
[18:41.090 --> 18:45.070]  So, you know, I'm fascinated by this scandal from the standpoint of it.
[18:45.150 --> 18:51.850]  It uses a technological system to potentially create a lot of problems for people intentionally.
[18:51.850 --> 18:59.630]  And, you know, just a few keystrokes or switches flipped can cause huge amounts of aggravation for folks.
[19:00.010 --> 19:02.450]  And just it's a say-so of someone.
[19:02.610 --> 19:03.290]  It's really intriguing.
[19:03.850 --> 19:19.350]  Yeah, and I was also reminded of the Palin thing, and it was pretty funny, but I never understood why people would use their work-based email for any kind of shady or dodgy or even just personal stuff, but I see it happen all the time.
[19:19.350 --> 19:34.870]  If you work anywhere, whether it's for some corporation or whether it's for some small business somewhere or whether it's for the government, your emails done under the company banner, under that company address, are readable by those in control of the email system at the company.
[19:35.310 --> 19:39.150]  And so everything you do on that address should be something that you'd be okay with them seeing.
[19:39.310 --> 19:48.170]  And especially if you work for the government, if you're under so much more oversight for that, and if your emails are part of the public record, then maybe you should be watching what you say on them.
[19:48.990 --> 19:56.050]  Yeah, I don't want to be giving advice to people that really should be digging themselves into oblivion.
[19:56.190 --> 19:58.250]  But this is common sense, folks.
[19:58.430 --> 19:59.010]  It really is.
[19:59.770 --> 20:06.370]  If you're doing something like this, and you don't want the whole... especially if you're part of the government, what were you thinking?
[20:06.550 --> 20:07.710]  That should be a new segment.
[20:07.770 --> 20:08.430]  What were you thinking?
[20:08.810 --> 20:12.290]  Because we have enough material for that for many, many months to come.
[20:13.390 --> 20:14.170]  All right.
[20:14.310 --> 20:28.490]  Speaking of spies and information and looking at various bits of email and things like this, the NSA was asked if they, in fact, spy on Congress.
[20:28.490 --> 20:33.910]  Yeah, the independent Senator Bernie Sanders from Vermont sent a letter to the agency.
[20:34.130 --> 20:43.010]  This was, I believe, on Friday, asking whether it has or is spying on members of Congress and other elected American officials.
[20:43.470 --> 20:48.990]  And the NSA's response, which came on Saturday, by the way, and they responded on Saturday, but they do.
[20:49.310 --> 20:54.610]  They said Congress has the same privacy protections as all U.S.
[20:54.770 --> 20:55.210]  persons.
[20:55.550 --> 20:56.190]  Wow.
[20:56.190 --> 20:56.270]  Wow.
[20:56.510 --> 20:56.690]  Okay.
[20:57.430 --> 20:59.330]  So, Bernie, what do you think?
[20:59.370 --> 21:00.710]  That's an overwhelming yes, isn't it?
[21:00.770 --> 21:01.610]  We are spying on you.
[21:01.990 --> 21:13.450]  If I was in Congress, I'd be really worried if I heard that, because we have apparently very little realistic privacy protections based on some leaked classified memos you've been reading from the NSA lately.
[21:14.050 --> 21:19.110]  Now, did the congressman actually send an email to the NSA, or did he just type the words into his browser bar and hope for the best?
[21:19.170 --> 21:19.910]  Yeah, I don't know.
[21:20.230 --> 21:22.310]  He might just send a regular letter through the mail.
[21:22.310 --> 21:31.610]  So, either way, though, either way, you can bet they're being monitored, foreign leaders are being monitored, foreign citizens are being monitored, and, you know, we're all being monitored.
[21:31.890 --> 21:32.950]  That's what's going on.
[21:33.990 --> 21:38.850]  And there's a difference between accepting it and fighting it, obviously.
[21:39.130 --> 21:41.350]  I mean, yeah, we have to realize that this is happening.
[21:41.510 --> 21:42.570]  It's not fantasy.
[21:42.570 --> 21:43.650]  It actually is happening.
[21:44.250 --> 21:47.370]  But it doesn't mean we have to simply say, okay, there's nothing we can do.
[21:47.730 --> 21:50.070]  Yeah, it's happening, but there is something we can do about it.
[21:50.190 --> 21:52.950]  And talking about it, obviously, is the most important thing.
[21:53.290 --> 21:54.710]  And holding people accountable.
[21:55.430 --> 22:00.110]  Always holding those in power accountable for their misdeeds.
[22:00.430 --> 22:01.810]  That's vital.
[22:01.990 --> 22:02.710]  That has to happen.
[22:02.710 --> 22:15.650]  Emmanuel, how's that supposed to happen if they are using secret laws that are overseen by secret courts that are not accessible by the public?
[22:15.810 --> 22:32.170]  Well, I think having congressmen asking them questions about this and getting the runaround or finding out that they, in fact, are also being spied upon, that's a good first step towards having these secret courts and secret laws exposed and overturned.
[22:32.170 --> 22:38.790]  If the government itself is powerless to do something about this, then, you know, you have the equivalent of a coup.
[22:39.030 --> 22:44.610]  And that's something that they certainly don't want uncovered, but they can't really stop it now, can they?
[22:45.590 --> 22:48.530]  Didn't something similar to this happen back in the early 70s?
[22:48.650 --> 22:52.550]  Ah, I'm glad you mentioned that because this story, this is a fascinating story.
[22:52.670 --> 22:53.370]  This just happened.
[22:53.510 --> 22:54.190]  This just came out.
[22:55.610 --> 22:57.730]  Front page of the New York Times.
[22:57.790 --> 22:58.710]  I think it was a front page.
[22:59.050 --> 23:00.450]  Front page of their webpage, anyway.
[23:00.450 --> 23:08.090]  Anyway, there was, back in, it was the same day, in fact, same day as a famous boxing match.
[23:08.430 --> 23:16.790]  I don't know how many people remember this, but Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier were pummeling each other 43 years ago.
[23:17.410 --> 23:20.830]  It was March 8th, 1971.
[23:22.270 --> 23:31.930]  Now, what happened was, there was this group of people that knew that the FBI was up to something.
[23:32.110 --> 23:40.770]  They knew the FBI was spying illegally and abusing their power, but they didn't have Edward Snowden.
[23:40.970 --> 23:41.990]  He wasn't even born then.
[23:41.990 --> 23:44.110]  They didn't have Bradley Manning.
[23:44.210 --> 23:46.770]  They didn't have Julian Assange.
[23:47.150 --> 23:48.830]  They didn't even have a Glenn Greenwald.
[23:48.970 --> 23:54.050]  They didn't have anybody that could tell them what was actually happening.
[23:54.490 --> 23:59.670]  But there were strong suspicions that all kinds of abuses were, in fact, taking place.
[23:59.670 --> 24:10.390]  So, back in 1971, the way to get this information was to physically break into the office and take it.
[24:11.070 --> 24:12.630]  That is what they did.
[24:12.790 --> 24:22.950]  Now, what happened, a few of these people, I'm not sure exactly how many of them, but a few of them, not all of them, have revealed their identities.
[24:23.990 --> 24:26.630]  For instance, Keith Forsythe is one of them.
[24:26.770 --> 24:28.250]  He's now 63 years old.
[24:29.010 --> 24:33.590]  He and other members of the group can no longer be prosecuted for what happened on that night.
[24:33.690 --> 24:42.070]  And they agreed to be interviewed before the release this week of a book written by one of the first journalists to receive the stolen documents.
[24:42.070 --> 24:47.250]  What they did was they got these documents and they released them to the media.
[24:48.550 --> 24:51.570]  And some of the media wrote stories about it.
[24:51.570 --> 24:54.170]  Some of the media, shamefully, did not.
[24:54.570 --> 24:59.230]  For instance, the New York Times, they eventually published a story based on the documents.
[24:59.710 --> 25:04.690]  But a reporter of theirs apparently handed the documents back to the FBI to help with their investigation.
[25:05.470 --> 25:07.290]  You know, you don't have to do that, reporters.
[25:07.610 --> 25:08.850]  That's not part of your job.
[25:08.850 --> 25:09.970]  You don't work for the government.
[25:10.050 --> 25:11.750]  You don't have to help with the investigation.
[25:12.430 --> 25:16.530]  But you do have to report the information that comes across your desk.
[25:16.670 --> 25:17.550]  That is your responsibility.
[25:17.550 --> 25:21.350]  The Los Angeles Times, they never published any story.
[25:21.810 --> 25:26.030]  And it's believed they may have also handed the documents back to the FBI.
[25:27.070 --> 25:41.110]  There was also an intense push inside the government, and this might sound very familiar, to punish those who exposed the crimes of the FBI instead of punishing those inside the FBI who have been violating the constitutional rights of Americans for so long.
[25:42.710 --> 25:50.290]  Now, there is a film coming out, 1971 is the name of the film, and it follows this book's release.
[25:50.510 --> 25:53.630]  And it's directed by Johanna Hamilton and our friend Laura Poitras.
[25:54.070 --> 26:05.310]  So, Laura Poitras, of course, we know as the person who was filming Edward Snowden and has been a major part of this and other stories for years now.
[26:05.310 --> 26:08.630]  So, it's incredible to see how it all ties together.
[26:08.770 --> 26:14.050]  But more information about the FBI burglary way back then.
[26:14.430 --> 26:30.430]  It was the idea of the late William Davidon, a professor of physics at Haverford College and a fixture of anti-war protests in Philadelphia, which, Bernie, as you may know, was a city that by the early 1970s had become a white-hot center of the peace movement.
[26:31.070 --> 26:31.850]  Very much so.
[26:31.990 --> 26:40.310]  I remember those days, well, I was in fourth grade when this direct action happened, and I remember reading about it in the newspaper and being just really amazed.
[26:40.410 --> 26:42.450]  You remember reading about this in fourth grade?
[26:42.590 --> 26:42.790]  Wow.
[26:43.050 --> 26:46.930]  I was, believe it or not, I was watching the news and reading.
[26:47.050 --> 26:49.230]  I was trying to be an informed person.
[26:49.310 --> 26:51.070]  I was, you know, even then.
[26:51.190 --> 26:52.630]  I'm trying to picture Bernie S.
[26:52.730 --> 26:53.210]  in fourth grade.
[26:53.210 --> 26:54.190]  I'm just trying to do that.
[26:54.290 --> 26:57.570]  And I know, I know you must have caused a lot of problems, a lot of trouble.
[26:57.570 --> 27:02.510]  Oh, yeah, the disciplinarian had a big, thick file on me, I'm sure, as did maybe other agencies.
[27:02.910 --> 27:09.710]  But, yeah, this was a... and actually, this incident happened just a couple, three miles from my suburban home back in 1971.
[27:10.110 --> 27:14.890]  And it was just sort of... it didn't get a lot of newspaper coverage initially, that there was this FBI break-in.
[27:14.890 --> 27:27.550]  But when the documents started coming out, that there was a massive illegal government surveillance of political groups, anti-war activists, and so forth, including all kinds of illegal wiretapping by the FBI.
[27:28.130 --> 27:34.170]  Then it made really big news, and that led to what I hope is happening now.
[27:34.610 --> 27:37.690]  Back then, it was Senator Church formed the Church Committee.
[27:39.010 --> 27:54.210]  And that led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which has morphed into something that is not what it was intended to be, and a lot of other restrictions on government overreach of, you know, surveillance and counter-surveillance, all that kind of stuff.
[27:54.310 --> 28:08.930]  The COINTEL program that we've talked about on the show before, and other shows on this station have talked about, was revealed by this direct action, where these eight activists broke into a tiny little FBI office in Media, Pennsylvania, stole thousands of documents,
[28:09.090 --> 28:14.310]  and copied them secretly and sent them to news media organizations.
[28:14.310 --> 28:23.610]  I'm really impressed by the operational security they used to not get caught, and to avoid being discovered for 43 years.
[28:23.690 --> 28:24.270]  That's impressive.
[28:24.270 --> 28:33.890]  Well, I guarantee if these guys were illegally diverting traffic on the George Washington Bridge, they would not have been exposed, because they used their brains as far as how they did this.
[28:34.910 --> 28:35.890]  Here's what they did.
[28:37.050 --> 28:38.270]  Originally, there were nine of them.
[28:38.350 --> 28:39.630]  One member actually dropped out.
[28:40.910 --> 28:42.570]  But I guess they still trusted that person.
[28:42.890 --> 28:49.370]  They concluded it would be way too risky to try to break into the FBI office in downtown Philadelphia, and I kind of agree with that.
[28:50.030 --> 28:52.410]  Security was tight even in 1971.
[28:52.410 --> 28:53.430]  They did have security.
[28:53.590 --> 28:55.110]  They knew what security was back in 1971.
[28:55.110 --> 28:57.410]  They just didn't have the technology of today.
[28:57.910 --> 29:06.670]  So they settled on the satellite office in a place called Media, Pennsylvania, and that was in an apartment building across the street from the county courthouse.
[29:07.250 --> 29:14.290]  Now, Mr. Raines, I don't have the first name here, but one of the...
[29:14.850 --> 29:30.250]  He and his wife were part of this, and he says that we knew when people came home from work, when their lights went out, when they went to bed, when they woke up in the morning, we were quite certain that we understood the nightly activities in and around that building.
[29:30.470 --> 29:34.570]  And Mr. Raines was a professor of religion at Temple University at the time.
[29:35.230 --> 29:36.210]  And that's what you do.
[29:36.330 --> 29:47.250]  I don't know, Rob, if you've ever done a heist, but what you have to do, obviously, is case out the joint and know when the lights come on, when the lights go off, when the night watchman comes by, when deliveries are made, things like that.
[29:47.310 --> 29:49.030]  You've got to get some intelligence, you know?
[29:49.130 --> 29:50.630]  You've got to understand how these things work.
[29:50.910 --> 29:51.490]  Am I right?
[29:51.750 --> 29:57.410]  I've never undertaken a heist personally, but I have seen a lot of films, and I played Grand Theft Auto, and it all fits.
[29:57.810 --> 29:58.030]  Uh-huh.
[29:58.210 --> 30:00.230]  Well, if you played Grand Theft Auto, then you know what I'm talking about.
[30:00.990 --> 30:10.230]  So the burglary went off largely without a hitch, according to the New York Times report, except for when Mr. Forsythe, who was the designated lockpicker, you always have to have a designated lockpicker.
[30:10.230 --> 30:11.530]  That's in any group.
[30:11.730 --> 30:15.050]  No matter what the situation, always have a designated lockpicker.
[30:15.170 --> 30:18.250]  Yeah, the rest of you can drink, but the designated lockpicker has to stay sober for his day.
[30:18.310 --> 30:20.750]  I mean, in this room, you are the designated lockpicker.
[30:20.990 --> 30:21.510]  All right?
[30:21.590 --> 30:24.410]  I'm just saying, in every situation, it comes in handy.
[30:25.390 --> 30:34.690]  But he found out that when he was trying to break into a different entrance that was originally planned, that they had installed a lock on the main door that he could not pick.
[30:35.350 --> 30:45.450]  So he had to use the crudest of all lockpicks, known as a crowbar, to break the second lock, which was a deadbolt above the doorknob.
[30:46.030 --> 30:50.630]  So after packing the documents into suitcases, they piled into getaway cars.
[30:51.150 --> 30:53.110]  This reminds me of college so much.
[30:53.510 --> 30:56.550]  And rendezvoused at a farmhouse.
[30:56.630 --> 30:58.050]  I would have rendezvoused at a diner.
[30:58.450 --> 30:59.610]  I guess that's the difference.
[30:59.690 --> 31:00.790]  But they rendezvoused at a farmhouse.
[31:00.910 --> 31:03.350]  We didn't have farmhouses, so we went to diners.
[31:03.530 --> 31:04.510]  But we didn't do that.
[31:04.510 --> 31:05.410]  Yeah, we didn't do anything like this.
[31:06.350 --> 31:08.450]  Basically, they sorted through what they had stolen.
[31:08.450 --> 31:12.530]  To their relief, they soon discovered that the bulk of it was hard evidence.
[31:12.750 --> 31:15.150]  Hard evidence of the FBI spying on political groups.
[31:15.550 --> 31:19.970]  And they then identified themselves as the Citizens Commission to investigate the FBI.
[31:20.490 --> 31:23.390]  They sent select documents to several newspaper reporters.
[31:23.610 --> 31:30.230]  And two weeks after the burglary, the first article from the Washington Post was written based on the files.
[31:30.230 --> 31:36.190]  And the Nixon administration tried unsuccessfully to get the Washington Post to return the files.
[31:36.210 --> 31:44.830]  And the Washington Post did what a news organization should do and said something we can't say over the air to the FBI and to the Nixon administration.
[31:44.830 --> 31:46.690]  And the information was published.
[31:46.690 --> 31:49.970]  And that is how a free press works.
[31:50.650 --> 31:51.350]  Right, Bernie?
[31:51.950 --> 31:52.090]  Yeah.
[31:52.110 --> 31:56.970]  And I think the people said something very wise that have finally come out after 43 years.
[31:57.050 --> 31:59.330]  The five of the eight who have gone public with their identities.
[32:00.030 --> 32:02.130]  since the statute of limitations is long with fire.
[32:02.210 --> 32:06.850]  They said that going through the official channels never would have worked in that case.
[32:07.410 --> 32:13.850]  They would have mercilessly been hounded and persecuted and prosecuted by the FBI.
[32:14.730 --> 32:23.830]  And they just never would have gone anywhere had they gone through official channels because the official channels were controlled by the very government entities that were committing the wrongdoing.
[32:24.250 --> 32:28.130]  So that's why they felt it was necessary to take this direct action.
[32:28.130 --> 32:44.870]  much as has Edward Snowden and Bradley, now Chelsea Manning, and others who realized the official channels are really a facade, a charade that doesn't usually work.
[32:45.190 --> 32:52.310]  So I think that what they did back in 1971 led to significant changes in our government.
[32:52.310 --> 32:59.310]  and I'm hoping that the revelations by Ed Snowden cause a similar backlash, although I think it's less likely now.
[32:59.410 --> 33:00.090]  It's different times.
[33:00.090 --> 33:09.310]  But it's clear that the American people and others around the world need regular reminders of what our governments are doing to us because we forget.
[33:09.730 --> 33:17.110]  And it really takes a big exposure like this of government wrongdoing to affect change.
[33:18.110 --> 33:30.230]  Well, one of the reasons that they've gone public too is also because of all the information and attention given to Edward Snowden, they felt a kinship to what he was trying to do.
[33:30.410 --> 33:40.390]  Obviously, these are very similar stories, but I find it very interesting that if we look at the perception now, the public perception now of what occurred, it's mostly supportive.
[33:40.590 --> 33:42.030]  Like, these guys are patriots.
[33:42.150 --> 33:42.510]  They're heroes.
[33:42.630 --> 33:43.490]  They did the right thing.
[33:43.570 --> 33:44.630]  They got information out.
[33:44.770 --> 33:46.170]  Not they're common criminals.
[33:46.170 --> 33:46.730]  They're burglars.
[33:46.730 --> 33:48.330]  They need to go to prison for the rest of their lives.
[33:49.130 --> 33:55.770]  And that's something I think we need to keep in mind because attitudes towards these kinds of actions change over time.
[33:55.930 --> 33:59.790]  History has a way of painting it in a totally different light.
[34:00.230 --> 34:11.170]  And if you had asked people, had these people been identified in 1972 or way back then, I'm sure most people would say, yeah, they should be prosecuted for what they did.
[34:11.550 --> 34:17.830]  But the benefit of hindsight, having had all this time go by and seeing that, yes, this was the right thing to do.
[34:17.910 --> 34:19.350]  This was the only way to get the information.
[34:20.090 --> 34:22.730]  You see the value of taking action.
[34:22.870 --> 34:39.650]  And I think Edward Snowden will be seen a lot sooner than 40 some odd years in the future, will be seen as a hero, as will Manning, as will all the people that leak information that unveils things that the powers that be don't want unveiled.
[34:40.910 --> 34:45.510]  And some of us already consider those individuals heroes and are extremely grateful for what they've done.
[34:46.050 --> 34:48.430]  Yeah, the difference is that their names are out now.
[34:49.010 --> 34:54.750]  It took over 40 years for the names here to be released and only because they chose to release their names.
[34:55.290 --> 34:57.890]  So I find that really fascinating and interesting.
[34:58.170 --> 35:02.710]  And wow, it just puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?
[35:02.950 --> 35:03.970]  It really does.
[35:03.970 --> 35:26.450]  And to take another perspective on it, if all the actions that these individuals went to, whether it's those people back in the 70s or Snowden or Manning or people like that now, if you were ascribing those actions to the authorities in investigating a crime that they were trying to catch the perpetrators of and it was a standard cut and dry,
[35:26.630 --> 35:39.330]  oh, that person's the criminal, you know, the authorities, the good guys, and if they did the exact same things, if they took a crowbar to a door in the 70s, which I'm sure they did many times, or if they, you know, took files off a network, as I'm sure they also do many times now,
[35:40.550 --> 35:51.150]  if it were, if the roles were reversed and this was the quote-unquote good guys doing this, no one would bat an eye at it and, you know, it would be another successful day on the job, I think, for the investigators.
[35:51.850 --> 35:59.630]  But when it's they themselves that are the criminals and somebody else who's investigating them, they don't seem to like it as much, I don't think.
[35:59.770 --> 36:01.310]  Yeah, I've noticed that too.
[36:02.310 --> 36:02.710]  Wow.
[36:02.710 --> 36:03.890]  So I didn't see this coming.
[36:04.010 --> 36:05.270]  This is a very interesting story.
[36:06.070 --> 36:16.470]  A lot of you might not see this coming too, but, you know, New York is one of six states that has gotten approval to experiment with drones, commercial drones.
[36:16.790 --> 36:20.150]  This, according to the Daily News, well, actually, according to everybody because it's true.
[36:20.150 --> 36:21.770]  it was announced.
[36:22.230 --> 36:26.410]  Among six states selected a week ago Monday to develop sites to test drones.
[36:27.030 --> 36:34.710]  That's a decision that likely will bring the unmanned aircraft to New York skies and somehow badly needed jobs to upstate.
[36:34.850 --> 36:38.370]  I guess they just need a lot of people to experiment putting drones up in the sky.
[36:39.090 --> 36:43.210]  I mean, couldn't they just experiment with drones that don't go up in the sky in other states and also create jobs?
[36:43.390 --> 36:48.050]  It just seems like you can always create jobs by just opening up some new industry.
[36:48.050 --> 36:49.910]  And this is one of them, apparently.
[36:50.030 --> 36:53.210]  The New York site actually is going to be up in Rome, New York.
[36:53.430 --> 36:54.170]  Have you ever been up there?
[36:54.210 --> 36:55.830]  That's up by Albany in that area.
[36:56.170 --> 36:57.590]  There's a big military base up there.
[36:58.010 --> 36:58.950]  That's right, yeah.
[36:59.690 --> 37:06.050]  Aerospace firms, the universities, and even Massachusetts is elbowing its way into this as well because they're right next door.
[37:06.990 --> 37:09.650]  So, anyway, yeah, that's going to be starting.
[37:11.910 --> 37:12.270]  Consumer...
[37:12.270 --> 37:12.910]  This is interesting.
[37:13.070 --> 37:14.790]  This quote here of the New York Daily News.
[37:15.290 --> 37:16.910]  Just listen to what they say here.
[37:17.290 --> 37:25.470]  Consumers were appalled in December when Amazon revealed it was testing how it could use drones to deliver packages as part of its Amazon Prime Air service.
[37:25.830 --> 37:26.630]  You know, I don't know.
[37:26.730 --> 37:29.110]  Were consumers appalled universally?
[37:29.230 --> 37:33.290]  I thought it was just an interesting story and some people were for it and some people were against it.
[37:33.370 --> 37:38.470]  But for the Daily News to say that consumers were all appalled by this, I don't know if that's completely accurate.
[37:38.770 --> 37:39.370]  What do you think?
[37:39.570 --> 37:40.110]  I don't know.
[37:40.210 --> 37:44.730]  If by consumers they meant like three people they stuck a mic in front of or something.
[37:45.410 --> 37:46.510]  Even I wasn't appalled.
[37:46.630 --> 37:48.450]  I was concerned and shocked.
[37:48.570 --> 37:49.050]  Well, not shocked.
[37:49.130 --> 37:50.110]  I hate saying I was shocked.
[37:50.890 --> 37:51.530]  But appalled?
[37:52.010 --> 37:52.690]  No, you know what?
[37:52.690 --> 37:54.690]  I kind of expected this sort of thing.
[37:55.410 --> 37:56.290]  And I don't know.
[37:56.470 --> 37:57.130]  It could be fun.
[37:57.250 --> 37:58.470]  It could be a lot of fun to play with.
[37:59.130 --> 38:02.610]  I'm sort of looking forward to that introduction of technology.
[38:02.610 --> 38:06.170]  But I know, you know, I'm going to be playing with it in a way it's not intended to be played with.
[38:06.170 --> 38:20.030]  Yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to when commercial entities or government entities start experimenting with drones here in town because I'm looking forward to experimenting with slingshots and butterfly nets.
[38:20.710 --> 38:21.170]  Yeah.
[38:22.410 --> 38:23.310]  Well, okay.
[38:23.470 --> 38:24.430]  Some more on this story.
[38:24.730 --> 38:29.610]  The expansion of drones has not come without protest as we've mentioned.
[38:30.210 --> 38:32.010]  Senator Rand Paul...
[38:34.090 --> 38:35.370]  Why, you know...
[38:35.370 --> 38:42.650]  Why is it that this is always the person they go to to express a divergent opinion?
[38:43.770 --> 38:46.630]  Every time Senator Rand Paul opens his mouth I wince.
[38:46.770 --> 38:53.910]  But, you know, I wince even more when he says something that I agree with and when he becomes the spokesperson for a position I believe in.
[38:54.110 --> 38:54.670]  You know?
[38:54.850 --> 38:55.630]  There's nothing worse than that.
[38:55.710 --> 38:58.290]  Couldn't they find anybody else that disagreed?
[38:58.510 --> 38:59.790]  Senator Rand Paul, why?
[38:59.970 --> 39:00.290]  Why?
[39:02.470 --> 39:16.490]  He launched a 12-hour filibuster last March to raise attention to how drones could violate the Fifth Amendment and due process and all that if the government used a drone to attack an American on U.S.
[39:16.570 --> 39:16.770]  soil.
[39:16.870 --> 39:18.950]  Of course, I don't think Amazon is going to be doing that.
[39:19.830 --> 39:21.650]  And I don't even know how that relates to this.
[39:21.650 --> 39:24.570]  It's a commercial drone and a military drone are really different things.
[39:24.730 --> 39:27.830]  They're mechanical objects that fly in the air without humans on board.
[39:28.610 --> 39:40.330]  Yeah, it's kind of unfortunate that we somehow ended up calling nice little quadcopters and government death machines that are remote controlled by some soldiers the same thing.
[39:40.710 --> 39:51.650]  Well, the FAA has said that they want to offer assurances to the public of its commitment to ensuring that privacy and civil liberties are protected at the test sites.
[39:51.890 --> 40:11.330]  Test site operators, this is a quote, test site operators must comply with federal, state, and other laws protecting an individual's right to privacy and have publicly available privacy policies and a written plan for data use and retention and conduct an annual review of privacy practices that allows for public comment.
[40:11.450 --> 40:30.130]  So basically, what they're saying is that the same rules apply in the skies where drones are operating, which means we are all doomed because if they don't respect privacy on the ground, which has been proven over and over again, they're sure as hell not going to respect it in the air as they're buzzing around looking down on us.
[40:32.050 --> 40:32.890]  Am I right?
[40:33.070 --> 40:33.650]  Any opposition?
[40:34.390 --> 40:35.350]  I would agree.
[40:35.470 --> 40:35.770]  All right.
[40:36.390 --> 40:37.110]  I agree too.
[40:37.270 --> 40:37.590]  All right.
[40:38.130 --> 40:40.190]  And here's another bit of technology to look forward to.
[40:40.510 --> 40:41.990]  By the way, we'll be taking phone calls in just a moment.
[40:42.090 --> 40:46.750]  212-209-2900 but be advised that Bernie S probably won't be able to hear you.
[40:47.510 --> 40:50.210]  And Bernie, I'm advising you too that you probably won't be able to hear them.
[40:50.810 --> 40:53.190]  Well, I'll open my ears as much as I can.
[40:53.670 --> 40:59.410]  Yeah, and maybe you can just sort of interpret what they might be saying based on the noises.
[40:59.750 --> 41:00.230]  Actually, no, wait.
[41:00.290 --> 41:01.310]  You were able to hear...
[41:01.990 --> 41:03.410]  You were able to hear Mike.
[41:03.530 --> 41:04.390]  Mike wasn't able to hear you.
[41:04.470 --> 41:06.570]  So maybe the callers won't be able to hear you.
[41:07.010 --> 41:07.930]  Well, we'll find out.
[41:08.370 --> 41:08.690]  Yeah.
[41:08.950 --> 41:09.270]  Okay.
[41:09.450 --> 41:12.710]  Well, if the callers don't listen to what you say, then you know what?
[41:12.770 --> 41:13.790]  That doesn't prove anything, does it?
[41:13.830 --> 41:16.710]  Because some callers don't listen to what you say no matter what.
[41:17.250 --> 41:18.750]  I think most of them don't listen to what I say.
[41:18.870 --> 41:19.190]  Yeah.
[41:19.190 --> 41:19.250]  Yeah.
[41:19.450 --> 41:19.650]  All right.
[41:19.690 --> 41:29.130]  Well, let's just wait till the caller has their say, and then we can see if... You probably will have heard them, but we'll disconnect, and then you can say whatever you want to say.
[41:29.770 --> 41:30.310]  All right.
[41:30.590 --> 41:42.370]  There is new technology on the horizon, new cash registers that... This sounds so bizarre and weird to say this, but I know if we look back in five or 10 years, it won't be so bizarre and strange then.
[41:42.650 --> 41:45.830]  But cash registers that scan your blood for payment.
[41:47.210 --> 41:51.310]  I could not make this up if I had a nightmare and wrote it down immediately upon waking up.
[41:53.030 --> 41:54.450]  The Pulse Wallet.
[41:54.550 --> 41:55.390]  This is what it's called.
[41:55.850 --> 41:57.010]  Pulsewallet.com.
[41:57.030 --> 41:57.690]  It exists.
[41:59.450 --> 42:02.430]  Basically, it's like a high-tech cash register.
[42:02.530 --> 42:08.410]  This comes from a website known as... A website that doesn't print its name anywhere.
[42:08.530 --> 42:08.990]  Oh, my God.
[42:09.450 --> 42:10.390]  Oh, this is awful.
[42:11.310 --> 42:11.790]  Okay.
[42:11.870 --> 42:12.210]  I'm sorry.
[42:12.450 --> 42:17.970]  Usually websites print their name when you print a page at the bottom, and this one did not.
[42:18.870 --> 42:19.350]  Okay.
[42:19.430 --> 42:19.670]  Whatever.
[42:21.550 --> 42:26.570]  They basically... It's a high-tech cash register intended as a point-of-sale terminal.
[42:26.770 --> 42:30.490]  It contains biometric technology developed by Fujitsu.
[42:30.490 --> 42:36.710]  Users register a credit card with Pulse Wallet and then put their hand on the device.
[42:37.650 --> 42:46.570]  Sensors... See, this is why I wanted to identify this site, because when you don't edit things, it's really hard to understand what's being said here.
[42:46.630 --> 42:48.270]  This is how it actually reads.
[42:49.030 --> 42:56.650]  Sensors inside the photograph the unique vein pattern in the palm of a user's hand and connect that pattern to the card.
[42:57.250 --> 42:58.310]  I'll say that again.
[42:59.010 --> 43:06.010]  Sensors inside the photograph the unique vein pattern in the palm of a user's hand and connect that pattern to the...
[43:06.010 --> 43:08.370]  Maybe if I just got rid of that the... Let me try that.
[43:09.190 --> 43:14.430]  Sensors inside photograph the unique vein pattern in the palm of a user's hand.
[43:14.490 --> 43:14.670]  Okay.
[43:14.810 --> 43:15.210]  It works.
[43:15.330 --> 43:15.670]  It works.
[43:15.790 --> 43:19.270]  You have to do your own editing, because they don't hire editors anymore.
[43:20.270 --> 43:24.190]  So, you know, what they do is they photograph the vein pattern, and there you go.
[43:24.290 --> 43:26.290]  You have something unique there.
[43:27.250 --> 43:34.310]  The idea is you just put your hand over the device for a few seconds when you want to buy something, and that would get automatically...
[43:35.190 --> 43:37.970]  And that would get automatically charged the credit card on file.
[43:39.370 --> 43:42.310]  It takes a few minutes, folks, to read what you write.
[43:42.450 --> 43:43.130]  It really does.
[43:43.890 --> 43:45.730]  Maybe if you cut off every third word or something.
[43:45.730 --> 43:50.510]  I could also spend a lot of time doing their job for them and crossing out the words.
[43:50.610 --> 43:52.010]  And it's more fun to read it like this, though.
[43:52.010 --> 43:52.430]  It really is.
[43:53.930 --> 43:56.830]  Because I'm proving a point at the same time as reading a story.
[43:57.270 --> 44:03.030]  Users can also track all their purchases on their mobile devices, as can almost anybody else, too, a bit.
[44:03.570 --> 44:04.630]  Oh, it's The Verge.
[44:04.750 --> 44:04.950]  Okay.
[44:05.130 --> 44:05.510]  There you go.
[44:05.610 --> 44:10.010]  The Verge is Ellis Hamburger tried the Pulse Wallet recently.
[44:10.570 --> 44:13.430]  So, okay, Verge people, you need to hire some editors, too.
[44:13.430 --> 44:16.590]  To make the story reading a little bit easier.
[44:16.910 --> 44:19.750]  Now my veins are in the system, he says, in the video demo.
[44:20.290 --> 44:22.530]  I'll be able to check out with just my hand.
[44:22.850 --> 44:25.410]  He makes it sound so futuristic and convenient.
[44:25.610 --> 44:27.730]  And that's another qualm I've got with things.
[44:28.050 --> 44:29.990]  Everyone's making video demonstrations.
[44:30.390 --> 44:32.370]  When you ask a question, how do you do this?
[44:32.430 --> 44:33.010]  How do you do that?
[44:33.230 --> 44:37.050]  Instead of somebody actually writing an article on how to do this or that, they do a video now.
[44:37.330 --> 44:39.190]  And that means they really don't have to edit anything.
[44:39.190 --> 44:40.610]  They just have to shoot a video.
[44:40.610 --> 44:43.130]  People are losing the ability to simply write articles.
[44:43.830 --> 44:46.850]  Anyway, rant off there.
[44:47.970 --> 44:54.810]  This is something that scares me because we've all seen the movies, you know, the net and things like that where people lose their identity.
[44:55.450 --> 44:59.170]  I'm not so much concerned with identity theft as somebody simply being blacklisted.
[44:59.350 --> 45:10.990]  If all of your credit is literally in your blood and you can be declared a non-person by the authorities when the authorities become one and all integrated and things like that.
[45:11.190 --> 45:15.610]  And there is nothing, nothing you'll be able to do to override that.
[45:15.710 --> 45:16.890]  You can't just get a new credit card.
[45:16.890 --> 45:19.130]  You'd have to get a new set of veins.
[45:19.330 --> 45:21.790]  You'd have to get a new circulatory system.
[45:21.990 --> 45:26.730]  And they could also make it so that anybody that associates with you also gets blacklisted if they try to help you.
[45:27.150 --> 45:28.750]  I mean, you know, it sounds like a nightmare.
[45:28.890 --> 45:31.050]  It is a nightmare scenario, but it sounds like an unrealistic one.
[45:31.210 --> 45:33.990]  But this is one step closer to making it very, very realistic.
[45:34.270 --> 45:35.150]  Am I crazy?
[45:35.710 --> 45:36.010]  No.
[45:36.150 --> 45:42.050]  And what else scares me about this is I know how clean my local grocery store tends to keep its cash registers.
[45:42.050 --> 45:44.430]  And I don't want to involve my blood in this transaction.
[45:45.290 --> 45:45.950]  No, no.
[45:46.110 --> 45:46.810]  What do you think, Bernie?
[45:47.890 --> 45:50.130]  Well, the blood itself is not being tested.
[45:50.270 --> 45:51.930]  They're looking at the vein patterns in your hand.
[45:52.130 --> 45:55.830]  But I'm sure the panel where you put your hand down is going to be very germy.
[45:57.010 --> 46:04.130]  And, you know, this isn't a lot different than banks asking for your thumbprint when you cash a check, which a lot of banks do now.
[46:04.130 --> 46:14.470]  So, you know, it's just tying in our biometrics with being able to function as a normal part of our society, which I have a real problem with.
[46:15.670 --> 46:17.090]  There's a different topic.
[46:17.190 --> 46:20.670]  There's an article circulating on the net from our friends over at Torrent Freak.
[46:22.650 --> 46:37.090]  As you might recall, I believe it was Sky, I think it was a few other Internet providers over in the U.K., announced they would be blocking certain domains, including ones that had copyright material, other objectionable material.
[46:37.250 --> 46:37.930]  Well, guess what?
[46:37.990 --> 46:46.270]  As we predicted back then, and as a lot of the net community has also predicted, more has been blocked as a result.
[46:46.430 --> 46:53.570]  And there's an article circulating right now on the Internet called Internet Sensors Came for Torrent Freak, and now I'm really mad.
[46:53.750 --> 46:54.590]  It's worth a read.
[46:54.950 --> 46:55.830]  Here's a part of it.
[46:55.830 --> 46:58.490]  But here at Torrent Freak, we've long been opponents of website blocking.
[46:58.750 --> 47:06.050]  It's a blunt instrument that is prone to causing collateral damage and known for failing to achieve its stated aims.
[47:06.470 --> 47:18.690]  We recently discovered that thanks to Sky's broadband shield filtering system, Torrent Freak is now blocked on one of the U.K.'s largest ISPs by users who think they are protecting their kids.
[47:19.030 --> 47:21.470]  Our crimes are the topics we cover.
[47:21.470 --> 47:28.450]  As readers, we know, we write about file-sharing, copyright, and closely linked issues, including privacy and web censorship.
[47:28.450 --> 47:40.750]  We write about the positives and the negatives of those topics, and we solicit comments from not only the sworthiest of pirates, but also the most hated anti-piracy people on the planet.
[47:40.750 --> 47:56.310]  If the MPAA, RIAA, FACT, BPI, Rights Alliance, BRAIN, B-R-E-I-N, and every DMCA takedown company on Earth want to have their say, they can do that alongside the folks at the Pirate Bay.
[47:56.470 --> 48:02.910]  We won't deny anyone their voice, whether it's someone being raided by the police or the people instigated the raid.
[48:03.170 --> 48:05.390]  Getting the news out is paramount.
[48:05.390 --> 48:09.890]  We are not scared to let anyone have their say, and we embrace free speech.
[48:10.010 --> 48:21.190]  But apparently, the people at Sky and their technology masters at Symantec believe that we should be denied our right to communicate on the basis that we report news about file-sharing issues.
[48:21.310 --> 48:23.330]  That's just utter nonsense.
[48:23.870 --> 48:38.750]  And it is utter nonsense, because you cannot connect to anything on BitTorrent that is illegal content, quote-unquote, air quotes, illegal content that is objectionable to these people, but they're simply talking about it.
[48:39.090 --> 48:46.250]  And it's not much of a reach to realize that, yeah, you know, it's one step away, and that is always what is going to happen when you start banning content.
[48:46.530 --> 48:49.670]  Yeah, it's worth reiterating for people who might not be familiar with the site.
[48:49.770 --> 48:51.610]  Torrent Freak is not itself a torrent site.
[48:51.710 --> 48:52.470]  It's a news site.
[48:52.650 --> 49:00.830]  They talk about what's going on in the world of copyrights and piracy and torrents and rights and this sort of subject matter, but they are a news site.
[49:01.350 --> 49:08.710]  So Sky's filters in their infinite wisdom thought that people should not have access to information about what's going on out there.
[49:08.830 --> 49:14.870]  And Emmanuel, I imagine this is something that you're sort of familiar with, having run 2600.com all these years.
[49:15.130 --> 49:15.490]  Absolutely.
[49:15.570 --> 49:18.230]  We are blocked by so many places.
[49:18.450 --> 49:19.910]  I cannot even begin to list them all.
[49:20.010 --> 49:20.950]  We're blocked by schools.
[49:21.050 --> 49:22.490]  We're blocked by companies.
[49:22.690 --> 49:24.130]  We're blocked by countries.
[49:24.510 --> 49:25.990]  We're blocked all over the place.
[49:25.990 --> 49:37.330]  And if you go to our website at 2600.com, all it is is basically the radio show, some news items, links to hope conferences and things like that.
[49:38.190 --> 49:43.710]  Precious little as far as articles involving how to hack into something because that's in the magazine.
[49:44.090 --> 49:52.030]  And you'll find more content like that on Amazon because we publish on the Kindle or on Google Play or something like that.
[49:52.030 --> 49:54.270]  And, of course, those sites aren't blocked, nor should they be.
[49:55.070 --> 49:59.550]  But, yeah, it's really, really frustrating to try and undo things like that.
[49:59.710 --> 50:08.070]  This one, though, this one is a lot more all-encompassing because it's an entire ISP that serves millions of people.
[50:08.650 --> 50:12.010]  And it's also foreshadowing of what could be ahead.
[50:12.210 --> 50:13.510]  So, yeah, very ominous.
[50:13.830 --> 50:16.990]  And it's a story we need to pay attention to.
[50:17.110 --> 50:18.510]  It's something we need to constantly be covering.
[50:18.510 --> 50:23.590]  Hopefully, at the aforementioned HOPE conference coming up in July, we will devote a lot of attention to that.
[50:23.730 --> 50:26.370]  On that subject, we opened up pre-registration on Monday.
[50:26.370 --> 50:38.210]  If you want to go to the conference, July 18, 19, and 20 here in New York City, we strongly suggest going to x.hope.net, the letter x.hope.net, and following the instructions for pre-registration.
[50:38.490 --> 50:42.970]  The reason that's important is because we are seeing an influx like we have never seen before.
[50:42.970 --> 50:49.070]  The topics that we've been discussing over the past year have really mushroomed into something huge and major.
[50:49.530 --> 51:01.170]  And we might be looking at having to close registration if we get a lot more ticket sales because, well, there's simply a finite amount of room even in the Hotel Pennsylvania.
[51:01.390 --> 51:02.150]  We'll see.
[51:02.730 --> 51:04.270]  We're still a ways away from that.
[51:04.270 --> 51:12.090]  But to be safe and also to give us the funds we need to start setting up the conference, it always helps to have people pre-register.
[51:12.290 --> 51:17.770]  And we'll have all kinds of announcements and new things rolled out in the weeks ahead.
[51:17.770 --> 51:18.770]  It's really, really interesting.
[51:18.770 --> 51:21.110]  We have a lot of cool people working on projects.
[51:21.530 --> 51:23.930]  And I'm looking forward to this one more than any of the others.
[51:24.050 --> 51:24.910]  It's going to be awesome.
[51:25.250 --> 51:26.990]  HOPE X, our 10th conference.
[51:27.890 --> 51:31.570]  HOPE conference's 20th anniversary, 2600 magazine's 30th anniversary.
[51:31.710 --> 51:33.090]  I don't know how all that lined up.
[51:33.090 --> 51:34.130]  It wasn't planned.
[51:35.030 --> 51:43.590]  But if you go to our other really cool website, xxx.18xs in a row.xxx, you'll also get there.
[51:44.110 --> 51:46.450]  And that was just a lucky registration of a website.
[51:47.370 --> 51:50.310]  No porn involved on that XXX site.
[51:50.450 --> 51:53.830]  Okay, 212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[51:53.910 --> 51:58.470]  I know the phone system here lets the phone ring about three times before it disconnects you.
[51:58.550 --> 52:00.130]  So let's try and make this quick.
[52:00.130 --> 52:04.630]  And remember that Bernie won't be able to be heard by the callers.
[52:04.810 --> 52:04.910]  Yeah.
[52:05.150 --> 52:05.610]  Good evening.
[52:05.730 --> 52:06.810]  You're on Off the Hook.
[52:07.750 --> 52:08.590]  Good evening, Emmanuel.
[52:08.770 --> 52:09.470]  This is Bobson.
[52:09.710 --> 52:10.730]  Bobson from Bulgaria.
[52:10.730 --> 52:12.690]  You're calling this show instead of the other show.
[52:12.730 --> 52:13.810]  Well, in addition to the other show.
[52:13.810 --> 52:23.890]  Well, in this show, you said how people coming for HopEx to New York from outside of the U.S.
[52:24.930 --> 52:32.250]  might want to not mention the conference to the border people questioning them.
[52:32.690 --> 52:36.930]  Well, I wouldn't be too specific as to it being a hacker conference.
[52:37.190 --> 52:39.510]  That's kind of waving a red flag.
[52:39.670 --> 52:42.070]  Say, you know, a computer security conference, for instance.
[52:42.190 --> 52:43.850]  Even though we're a lot more interesting than that.
[52:44.630 --> 52:46.330]  Or you're here for terrorism.
[52:46.350 --> 52:48.530]  You don't have to tell people everything you're doing.
[52:48.790 --> 52:52.870]  I know, you know, we seem to be under pressure all the time to give out all this information.
[52:52.870 --> 52:59.470]  And law enforcement likes nothing better than for people to just gush out every little trivial detail of their lives.
[52:59.650 --> 53:00.870]  You don't have to do that.
[53:01.010 --> 53:03.450]  Just say, yeah, I'm here to visit New York, sightseeing.
[53:03.830 --> 53:08.190]  And you might have to tell them where you're staying, which I assume you'll have a place to stay.
[53:08.610 --> 53:09.750]  And that's it.
[53:10.510 --> 53:21.910]  I am bothered by the fact that you seem to think that foreigners would need to conceal from border people what type of conference they're attending and why they're coming to it.
[53:21.910 --> 53:23.270]  But that's common sense.
[53:23.450 --> 53:26.770]  I would conceal that from any border patrol in any country.
[53:28.250 --> 53:30.330]  Just basically because it's none of their business.
[53:30.610 --> 53:36.170]  But also, what's the point of telling them something that's controversial, that's going to make them want to ask you more questions?
[53:36.330 --> 53:37.450]  Even if they're just interested.
[53:37.690 --> 53:39.910]  You know, I just want to get through that border as quickly as possible.
[53:40.650 --> 53:44.930]  I understand that, but it's a bit too much fear for me.
[53:45.070 --> 53:46.250]  And it seems that...
[53:46.250 --> 53:50.490]  Do you remember a time when there was nothing to fear but fear itself?
[53:50.490 --> 53:53.850]  Well, you can still fear fear itself, obviously.
[53:54.510 --> 53:56.790]  And this is not something to be afraid of.
[53:56.910 --> 53:59.850]  This is something to avoid because it'll be inconvenient.
[54:00.330 --> 54:01.470]  There's no torture.
[54:01.850 --> 54:02.830]  There's no beatings.
[54:02.990 --> 54:07.710]  There's nothing that is really something that you have to tremble and fear about.
[54:07.950 --> 54:14.450]  It's just a question of, do you want to go through this process as easily and quickly as possible?
[54:14.550 --> 54:15.270]  Which you can do.
[54:15.450 --> 54:17.630]  It's 99 times out of 100.
[54:17.630 --> 54:18.830]  That is how it works.
[54:19.530 --> 54:24.290]  Or do you want to say something like, yeah, I'm an interesting person that you should investigate even further?
[54:24.370 --> 54:26.050]  I just don't see the advantage to that.
[54:28.170 --> 54:42.110]  It's somewhat bothersome that we're still at a time when going to a conference such as Hope, which I have not had the privilege to visit, is something that needs to be spared the border.
[54:42.390 --> 54:45.890]  There's nothing wrong with attending a conference like that that I know of.
[54:45.890 --> 54:47.030]  This is what I suggest, Bob.
[54:47.130 --> 54:48.290]  So then we're going to move on to another phone call.
[54:48.470 --> 54:59.030]  Come to New York in mid-July to see New York, to see Times Square, to see the Empire State Building, to ride a city bike, whatever.
[54:59.550 --> 55:00.670]  Come to do that.
[55:01.370 --> 55:02.650]  Don't come for the conference.
[55:02.810 --> 55:11.570]  But when you are in New York, let us know, and we will tell you about the conference at that point, and you will be sort of sucked into it without realizing it.
[55:11.570 --> 55:11.970]  All right?
[55:12.590 --> 55:14.150]  We're going to move on.
[55:14.830 --> 55:16.150]  I think that's the best advice.
[55:16.250 --> 55:16.790]  But why?
[55:16.910 --> 55:17.750]  Why get attention?
[55:17.970 --> 55:18.370]  You know?
[55:18.530 --> 55:21.830]  I know you shouldn't have to think this way, but you do.
[55:21.950 --> 55:24.070]  And that's not unique to this country.
[55:24.290 --> 55:25.150]  Let's take another phone call.
[55:25.190 --> 55:25.510]  Good evening.
[55:25.630 --> 55:26.330]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:27.090 --> 55:27.870]  Oh, terrific.
[55:28.970 --> 55:35.570]  An animal will proceed through four distinct stages when undergoing complete metamorphosis?
[55:35.570 --> 55:36.130]  Metamorphosis.
[55:36.910 --> 55:42.070]  An animal will go through four distinct stages when going through metamorphosis.
[55:42.130 --> 55:42.590]  That's what you said.
[55:43.030 --> 55:44.250]  Complete metamorphosis.
[55:44.330 --> 55:44.930]  Complete metamorphosis.
[55:45.010 --> 55:45.370]  Yeah, okay.
[55:45.930 --> 55:51.410]  It will go through an egg, a larvae, a pupae, and finally an adult stage.
[55:52.270 --> 55:53.050]  All right.
[55:53.250 --> 55:54.570]  And this is relevant to us?
[55:54.570 --> 55:55.170]  How exactly?
[55:55.730 --> 56:02.890]  Well, but in incomplete metamorphosis, the larvae and pupae stage are replaced by what's called the nymph stage.
[56:03.710 --> 56:03.970]  Nymph.
[56:04.750 --> 56:05.710]  Okay, okay.
[56:07.710 --> 56:11.610]  Oh, uh, if you have thoughts on that, that would be great.
[56:11.730 --> 56:12.830]  Wait, I missed the last part.
[56:12.930 --> 56:13.690]  My headphone's cut out.
[56:13.870 --> 56:15.550]  After the nymph stage, what happens?
[56:15.910 --> 56:23.370]  No, no, the nymph stage replaces the intermediate stages of the pupae and larvae, the larvae and pupae stages.
[56:23.530 --> 56:25.290]  Yeah, and your question is what?
[56:25.550 --> 56:27.630]  And that would be incomplete metamorphosis.
[56:27.910 --> 56:28.310]  All right.
[56:29.490 --> 56:29.970]  And?
[56:31.130 --> 56:34.510]  I thought maybe you had thoughts on that, or...
[56:34.510 --> 56:35.870]  I've got thoughts on that.
[56:36.430 --> 56:37.890]  I've got thoughts on that.
[56:37.970 --> 56:39.250]  That's our last call for the night.
[56:39.930 --> 56:43.590]  And my thoughts, really, I cannot believe we wasted a minute on that.
[56:44.090 --> 56:44.410]  All right.
[56:44.790 --> 56:48.370]  Folks, our email address, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[56:48.470 --> 56:48.870]  Oh, you know what?
[56:48.930 --> 56:51.410]  I just wanted to mention this story, too, because this is kind of interesting.
[56:51.750 --> 56:55.710]  There is this group out there called the Insane Clown Posse.
[56:56.230 --> 56:56.750]  If you heard...
[56:57.690 --> 56:59.990]  Rob, weren't you in the Insane Clown Posse at one point?
[57:00.210 --> 57:01.930]  No, but I used to have some of their records.
[57:02.210 --> 57:02.450]  All right.
[57:02.530 --> 57:03.170]  Bernie, was it you?
[57:03.230 --> 57:04.650]  I thought one of us was in...
[57:04.650 --> 57:05.770]  No, I was not.
[57:05.990 --> 57:06.370]  Oh, my God.
[57:06.370 --> 57:07.050]  Maybe it was me.
[57:07.690 --> 57:11.610]  Well, anyway, they're suing the FBI, which is a thing to do these days.
[57:11.610 --> 57:25.630]  They and four diehard fans announced a lawsuit against the FBI and the Department of Justice today saying their constitutional rights were violated when the feds designated their juggalo devotees a gang.
[57:25.990 --> 57:34.550]  It's time for the FBI to come to their senses and recognize that juggalos, I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, are not...
[57:36.590 --> 57:38.510]  This is another thing that wasn't edited.
[57:39.150 --> 57:42.670]  Not a gang, but a worldwide family united by the love of music.
[57:42.790 --> 57:50.730]  You know, I wanted to go out with something by the Insane Clown Posse, but, you know, it's impossible to find something that we can actually play on the radio.
[57:50.730 --> 57:53.270]  This is the closest thing we were able to get.
[58:05.790 --> 58:12.330]  Imagine music completely original, uninfluenced, unique, and uncensored.
[58:12.850 --> 58:13.570]  We do
[59:13.310 --> 59:16.770]  a trip into the bizarre, bizarre.
[59:44.290 --> 59:48.970]  Okay, that's pretty much where we have to fade out there because we can't really play much more with that, but that gives you a taste.
[59:49.630 --> 59:51.550]  We're going to go out with something a little bit more appropriate, though.
[59:51.550 --> 01:00:17.190]  Mary had a little lamb Its fleece was white as snow Everywhere that Mary went That lamb was sure to go And you could hear that singing La la, la la,
[01:00:23.020 --> 01:00:32.880]  la la, la la, la la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.
[01:00:43.130 --> 01:00:47.610]  I won't earn to school one day.
[01:00:48.010 --> 01:00:51.650]  It was against the rule.
[01:01:05.430 --> 01:01:09.370]  La la, la la, la,
[01:01:25.120 --> 01:01:27.240]  la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
[01:01:32.350 --> 01:01:41.790]  la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la A .I.
[01:01:41.970 --> 01:01:42.470]  dot O.R.G.
[01:01:42.470 --> 01:01:42.470]  A .I.
[01:01:42.470 --> 01:01:42.890]  dot O .R.G.