[00:00.000 --> 00:13.640]  You can get your CD or DVD by mail, or a credit card by phone, or online on TUC Radio's secure website, tucradio.org.
[00:14.720 --> 00:16.760]  My name is Moriah Gleiden.
[00:17.420 --> 00:18.820]  Thank you for listening.
[00:19.060 --> 00:19.760]  Give us a call.
[00:34.150 --> 00:36.970]  And the time is just about 7 p.m.
[00:37.010 --> 00:41.110]  You're listening to WBAI 99.5 FM, New York.
[00:41.110 --> 00:44.210]  And it's time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[01:43.050 --> 01:44.870]  And a very good evening to you.
[01:45.090 --> 01:46.930]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:46.930 --> 01:47.570]  Rob T.
[01:47.710 --> 01:48.670]  Firefly here with you.
[01:49.090 --> 01:50.810]  And I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
[01:51.310 --> 01:51.610]  Hello.
[01:53.370 --> 01:54.190]  Let's try that again.
[01:54.370 --> 01:55.530]  Am I joined in the studio by Mike?
[01:55.750 --> 01:56.070]  Yes.
[01:56.350 --> 01:58.430]  You didn't believe I was really in the studio, did you?
[01:58.590 --> 01:59.710]  It's been a few weeks.
[01:59.810 --> 02:00.890]  You were speaking so quietly.
[02:01.490 --> 02:03.310]  And on the phone, I believe we have Bernie S.
[02:05.070 --> 02:05.650]  Do we?
[02:07.050 --> 02:09.210]  I heard him on the phone just a moment ago.
[02:09.390 --> 02:10.630]  We've lost Bernie S.
[02:10.830 --> 02:11.450]  How sad.
[02:11.810 --> 02:13.430]  Maybe we can get him back.
[02:13.430 --> 02:16.930]  Emanuel is, I guess, stuck in a water main or something like that?
[02:17.130 --> 02:17.870]  Something like that.
[02:17.930 --> 02:22.330]  I think there's a broken water main and they're actually using Emanuel to plug the hole.
[02:22.770 --> 02:26.110]  And he's a very tall gentleman, so I think he's suited to the job.
[02:26.190 --> 02:30.530]  But no, there are subways being subways.
[02:30.530 --> 02:33.790]  And I don't know if there's much more than that to expect from it.
[02:34.870 --> 02:35.850]  It's hard to say.
[02:36.890 --> 02:45.550]  We do have some news to discuss while we play with telephones and subways and everything else.
[02:47.470 --> 02:49.090]  Ah, new development.
[02:49.090 --> 02:50.750]  I believe we have Bernie on the phone again.
[02:51.710 --> 02:52.190]  Yes.
[02:52.570 --> 02:53.090]  Oh, wow.
[02:53.310 --> 02:54.070]  There you are.
[02:55.610 --> 02:55.790]  Okay.
[02:55.970 --> 02:56.230]  Greetings.
[02:58.050 --> 03:02.230]  And as we've just informed the listeners, we don't have Emanuel here at the moment.
[03:02.250 --> 03:03.830]  He will probably be late.
[03:04.090 --> 03:05.330]  In fact, he's already late.
[03:05.510 --> 03:06.770]  He'll probably continue to be late.
[03:07.210 --> 03:08.230]  I feared the worst.
[03:08.630 --> 03:10.210]  So, you know.
[03:10.310 --> 03:11.470]  Well, we're not out of the woods yet.
[03:11.670 --> 03:17.770]  But when he gets back here, we can settle our bets, see who has what time in the pool, and go from there.
[03:18.130 --> 03:19.890]  I don't have a bet in that yet.
[03:19.890 --> 03:22.050]  But I guess I'll text it to you guys.
[03:22.190 --> 03:22.370]  Okay.
[03:22.770 --> 03:23.350]  Don't do that.
[03:23.450 --> 03:24.730]  My phone might buzz and make noise.
[03:24.730 --> 03:31.890]  But while we wait for Emanuel to show up, did you see this story, Bernie, about the no-fly list?
[03:33.570 --> 03:33.970]  Yes.
[03:33.970 --> 03:35.170]  It was a really interesting case.
[03:35.170 --> 03:37.050]  I think you probably knew more about it than I do.
[03:37.170 --> 03:41.230]  But it was a landmark legal decision.
[03:41.490 --> 03:46.730]  I mean, like all good news that we report on this program, I expect it to be overturned.
[03:46.790 --> 03:50.550]  Although I did say that 2014 was going to be the year in which things get better.
[03:50.790 --> 03:52.630]  So maybe I was correct.
[03:53.090 --> 03:58.310]  The problem is I wasn't able to read, I wasn't able to read the decision, or most of it.
[03:58.430 --> 03:59.250]  What's with that?
[03:59.930 --> 04:05.830]  So I guess maybe, I don't know that we've talked so much about this case, but it's a very fascinating case that I've been following.
[04:06.730 --> 04:14.390]  There's a former doctoral student, she now has her degree from Malaysia, who was studying in the United States.
[04:14.590 --> 04:26.890]  And while she was studying here, she was apparently put on the no-fly list and prevented from flying within the United States, as well as from flying home to Malaysia, where she wanted to go for a bit.
[04:27.830 --> 04:41.890]  She eventually made it home, but then couldn't come back into the United States, so she had to finish her degree program remotely and can't come back to the States, where she has professional colleagues and one would presume friends.
[04:43.350 --> 04:46.690]  Her daughter was born here in the States, so is a U.S.
[04:46.790 --> 04:47.130]  citizen.
[04:48.150 --> 04:55.870]  And anyway, so this woman, Dr., I don't know her first name, but Dr. Rahina Ibrahim is her name.
[04:56.010 --> 04:56.970]  So she sued the U.S.
[04:57.070 --> 05:02.510]  government to get off the no-fly list, which is a difficult thing to do, because the U.S.
[05:02.550 --> 05:05.850]  government will not even admit to anyone that they are on the no-fly list.
[05:06.010 --> 05:10.210]  You just sort of show up at an airport, and you're either allowed to fly or you're not.
[05:11.550 --> 05:28.550]  So there's been a whole bunch of procedural back and forth in this case, because the government, of course, wants to have everything with secret evidence and secret claims and secret procedures, and they would really rather not litigate at all, so they had a whole bunch of battles over what's called standing,
[05:28.790 --> 05:32.810]  which is the question of whether Dr. Ibrahim can sue or not.
[05:34.430 --> 05:46.370]  But those battles were resolved, and the judge ruled just yesterday, I believe, that Dr. Ibrahim wins her case, and the government has to do one of two things.
[05:46.890 --> 05:48.250]  I'm sorry, they have to do two things.
[05:48.330 --> 05:54.850]  They have to tell her if she's on the no-fly list or not, which is the first time anyone has ever been told that, I believe.
[05:55.070 --> 06:00.110]  And they have to get her off the no-fly list, because the judge ruled that there was really no reason for her to be on it.
[06:02.330 --> 06:12.650]  So, we don't know the public why she was ever on the list, or that she was ever on the list, but it is believed that there was just a mistake.
[06:12.870 --> 06:15.610]  There are two organizations with very similar names.
[06:15.810 --> 06:34.310]  One is on the list of approved terrorist organizations, and one is just a professional networking organization for people in Indonesia who have studied in the West, and is apparently a pretty harmless group, and Dr. Ibrahim was a member of that latter group.
[06:34.450 --> 06:37.190]  So, the theory was that there was some confusion.
[06:37.670 --> 06:39.230]  I guess the U.S.
[06:39.310 --> 06:48.530]  government doesn't speak Indonesian very well, and they just mixed the two up and put everyone in the professional networking group on the alleged terrorist group list.
[06:48.530 --> 06:53.350]  But either way, the case has now been sort of resolved.
[06:53.670 --> 07:03.190]  But the judge, whose name is Judge Alsup, who's out in San Francisco, released sort of a summary of his order.
[07:03.650 --> 07:14.670]  But one of the things in the summary of the order is the fact that he's not releasing the whole order, because the government is still continuing to argue that everything about this case, everything in the order is secret.
[07:14.670 --> 07:16.670]  So, it's insane.
[07:17.530 --> 07:20.770]  So, the order has been sealed until April 15th.
[07:21.390 --> 07:25.290]  So, if nothing further happens, we'll be able to read the full order then.
[07:26.190 --> 07:38.090]  The reason, of course, that it's sealed until then is to give the government time to appeal that unsealing order, which I'm sure they'll do, because, you know, they really love secrecy in the executive branch.
[07:38.250 --> 07:40.010]  So, it'll be interesting to see what happens.
[07:40.010 --> 07:51.370]  But it's encouraging that at least one judge has ruled that your position on the no-fly list is something that you can actually learn, that you can appeal if you've been placed on it unfairly.
[07:51.910 --> 07:58.050]  And these are all things that the government, in particular, the Homeland Security Department, really do not want to happen.
[07:58.970 --> 08:13.590]  Mike, I was wondering if one of the reasons that the government didn't want this whole decision to be published is that maybe other people could copy it and actually get some justice.
[08:13.790 --> 08:18.950]  This is like a tiny chink in the armor of this whole no-fly list secret law.
[08:18.950 --> 08:21.730]  It's based on a secret law, isn't it?
[08:21.790 --> 08:25.550]  This no-fly list is based on a law that we're not allowed to even see what the law says.
[08:26.170 --> 08:33.710]  And the list itself is secret, and you're not even allowed to find out if you're on the list or not, other than just you're not being allowed to fly, and you can just assume that that's it.
[08:34.330 --> 08:34.650]  Right.
[08:34.710 --> 08:41.250]  I mean, that's part of the insane thing, is the government won't tell you if you're on the list, but you show up at the airport, and you're either allowed on the plane or you're not.
[08:41.310 --> 08:45.690]  So, it's pretty easy to learn, but the government insists that it's just a big secret.
[08:48.090 --> 08:49.530]  Well, we'll meet your thing, Steve.
[08:49.830 --> 08:50.190]  Go ahead.
[08:50.450 --> 08:50.890]  I'm sorry.
[08:50.970 --> 08:53.290]  So what do you think the fallout of this is going to be?
[08:54.150 --> 09:07.970]  I would like to believe that the fallout will be that there will be some transparency into this program, that other people who are placed on the list, because the government doesn't speak various non-English languages, they don't even really speak English all that well,
[09:08.070 --> 09:17.990]  but will be able to get off the list through clear appeals procedures with actual independent arbiters, where people can see and rebut the evidence against them.
[09:19.250 --> 09:23.950]  But, you know, I'm not that good at optimism, so I don't know if I think that's really going to happen or not.
[09:25.050 --> 09:25.910]  What do you think, Bernie?
[09:26.810 --> 09:35.150]  And we can expect to learn more maybe in, what, three months or so, when the April 15th front rolls around, which is the government's deadline?
[09:36.190 --> 09:39.610]  Well, I mean, of course the government's going to appeal, so we'll see what happens.
[09:39.610 --> 09:58.870]  The judge did also instruct both the government and Dr. Ibrahim and her lawyers to sit down and try and agree on sort of the minimal set of redactions so that we can see some of the order before that deadline.
[09:59.070 --> 10:04.350]  But, you know, the government is not very good at agreeing to release things that they don't want us to see.
[10:04.350 --> 10:13.550]  So is she coming... so with this order, is she... is this stayed or is she allowed to enter the United States now?
[10:14.650 --> 10:19.170]  My understanding is that she... so there's another complication that she's not a U.S.
[10:19.230 --> 10:22.470]  citizen and so needs a visa to come to the U.S.
[10:22.850 --> 10:28.530]  Her old visa has expired while all this was going on, so she does not have a visa.
[10:29.150 --> 10:36.510]  Um... and I don't... I don't know the details of... of the situation there, but my understanding is she's now off the no-fly list, at least.
[10:37.490 --> 10:41.530]  There's... there's another interesting thing that happened during this case that, um...
[10:42.110 --> 10:52.350]  Dr. Ibrahim's daughter, who, as I said, was born in the United States and is so a United States citizen, was going to come to... to San Francisco to testify at this trial.
[10:52.350 --> 10:59.330]  Uh... and she showed up, uh... at the airport in Indonesia and was told, uh... I'm sorry, we can't let you on the plane.
[10:59.930 --> 11:02.410]  Uh... this is, of course, totally insane.
[11:02.630 --> 11:02.790]  U.S.
[11:03.170 --> 11:06.290]  citizens don't need a visa or any other permission to fly to the U.S.
[11:07.050 --> 11:12.930]  Um... and so... so this blocking... and... and what's weird about this case is that, uh...
[11:12.930 --> 11:26.630]  she had a connection in Malaysia on her way from Indonesia to the States, so the people, I guess, in the airport in Indonesia weren't fully aware of all the procedures, so they actually gave, uh... the daughter some of the documents that she wasn't supposed to see,
[11:26.830 --> 11:29.030]  the emails saying, hey, don't let her on the plane.
[11:29.470 --> 11:33.330]  Uh... so then when the government said in... in court, um...
[11:33.330 --> 11:35.030]  you know, we're not doing anything to block her.
[11:35.110 --> 11:36.430]  We don't know why she didn't show up.
[11:37.370 --> 11:41.390]  Um... that was sort of not credible, um... when they said that.
[11:42.090 --> 11:43.730]  But, uh... it'll be interesting.
[11:44.070 --> 11:49.390]  So... so she was blocked, and then the government, you know, said basically, oops, we... we meant to let her in.
[11:49.390 --> 11:52.390]  Uh... if she comes again, uh... we will let her in.
[11:52.930 --> 12:02.790]  Uh... but, uh... but what happened is that, uh... the... the daughter, understandably, uh... said, you know, I really don't feel safe flying to the United States under such circumstances.
[12:02.990 --> 12:05.290]  What if I am allowed in but not allowed out?
[12:06.090 --> 12:15.670]  Um... so... so even though we believe she's allowed to fly to the United States, both the mother and the daughter, um... it's not clear that either of them really, uh... feel safe enough to do so right now.
[12:15.670 --> 12:20.570]  Well, I can't imagine why anyone would, uh... still have any worries regarding, uh... where all this is going to go.
[12:20.990 --> 12:27.110]  Um... speaking of people, uh... showing up places, um... it looks like we might have a manual here very, very soon.
[12:27.810 --> 12:35.250]  In, uh... in the meantime, um... there's been a big development yesterday, um... regarding net... um... regarding the issue of net neutrality.
[12:35.550 --> 12:36.570]  Uh... Bernie, did you see this story?
[12:37.710 --> 12:39.610]  Yeah, it's, uh... depressing news.
[12:40.270 --> 12:41.490]  Um... it, uh...
[12:41.490 --> 12:45.590]  Okay, maybe first, uh... explain for people who might not know, uh... what net neutrality means.
[12:47.210 --> 12:49.570]  Well, that's... that's a difficult thing to explain.
[12:49.810 --> 12:53.910]  But, uh... bottom line, it means that, um...
[12:53.910 --> 12:59.570]  it would... it would be a legal structure by which no internet service provider could prioritize...
[12:59.570 --> 13:01.850]  could legally, um...
[13:01.850 --> 13:03.690]  prioritize traffic.
[13:03.970 --> 13:10.150]  For instance, suppose you want to go to the 2600 website, and...
[13:10.750 --> 13:16.290]  your... and your internet service provider decided, well, we're not going to let, um...
[13:16.750 --> 13:18.470]  2600, uh...
[13:19.250 --> 13:19.770]  um...
[13:19.770 --> 13:22.350]  have... send data to our customers...
[13:22.350 --> 13:25.370]  if they request it, unless they're... they pay like a...
[13:25.370 --> 13:26.970]  an extra fee or something.
[13:27.410 --> 13:29.210]  It can get more complicated than that.
[13:29.210 --> 13:30.450]  But basically, it would...
[13:30.450 --> 13:31.650]  net neutrality would...
[13:31.650 --> 13:32.370]  would... would...
[13:32.850 --> 13:33.250]  prevent...
[13:33.250 --> 13:36.270]  any sort of favoritism with data on the internet, where you...
[13:36.270 --> 13:37.030]  to prevent...
[13:37.030 --> 13:39.350]  people from not being able to go to the website they want.
[13:40.290 --> 13:41.090]  And, um...
[13:41.090 --> 13:44.610]  of course, internet service providers don't want this, because they could see this as a way to make profit.
[13:44.610 --> 13:46.070]  And, um...
[13:46.070 --> 13:47.390]  the whole legal...
[13:47.390 --> 13:48.890]  thing holding this...
[13:49.310 --> 13:51.830]  net neutrality up is that...
[13:51.830 --> 13:52.650]  uh...
[13:52.650 --> 13:58.590]  internet service providers are not considered common carriers, like phone companies and railroads are, in this country.
[13:58.870 --> 14:00.610]  And that's thanks to, uh...
[14:01.590 --> 14:01.890]  um...
[14:02.190 --> 14:03.550]  the, uh...
[14:03.550 --> 14:04.230]  uh...
[14:04.230 --> 14:06.050]  the FTC chairman during the...
[14:06.050 --> 14:06.610]  George W.
[14:06.730 --> 14:07.410]  Bush administration.
[14:07.650 --> 14:08.350]  I forget his name.
[14:08.590 --> 14:09.850]  He's the one that, uh...
[14:10.170 --> 14:12.070]  that changed, uh...
[14:12.070 --> 14:14.550]  internet service providers from a common carrier to, uh...
[14:14.550 --> 14:15.590]  an unrelated...
[14:15.590 --> 14:16.270]  unregulated...
[14:16.270 --> 14:17.370]  unregulated entity.
[14:18.110 --> 14:19.770]  But this really has huge ramifications.
[14:19.930 --> 14:20.610]  Don't you think so, Mike?
[14:20.930 --> 14:22.290]  Yeah, I mean, so...
[14:22.290 --> 14:24.270]  what the FCC tried to do was...
[14:24.270 --> 14:32.730]  declare that the internet service providers were not common carriers, but tried to subject them to some of the same common carrier rules.
[14:33.070 --> 14:33.830]  And, uh...
[14:33.830 --> 14:35.490]  in the court, the DC, uh...
[14:35.490 --> 14:37.890]  the DC court, um...
[14:37.890 --> 14:41.130]  ruled that that was not a thing that the FCC could do.
[14:41.330 --> 14:42.930]  So there's a few options forward.
[14:43.410 --> 14:43.970]  Uh...
[14:43.970 --> 14:54.930]  If we believe that 2014 is the year in which things will get better, then what the FCC could do is rule that ISPs are in fact a common carrier, and therefore are subject to the...
[14:54.930 --> 14:57.310]  the rules of common carriers, uh...
[14:57.310 --> 14:59.430]  Congress could pass a law, uh...
[14:59.430 --> 15:03.270]  giving the FCC the power to do what it did, um...
[15:03.270 --> 15:05.050]  uh... that the DC circuit ruled.
[15:05.290 --> 15:14.350]  So there are some ways forward for net neutrality, but if you believe that 2014 is not the year in which things will get better, then currently, uh... net neutrality is not the law of the land.
[15:14.850 --> 15:29.370]  Some of the large ISPs are already, uh... you know, rubbing their fingers together, uh... looking for ways to make more money, charging both you and the company you're doing business with, doing business with, more money to... to transmit data.
[15:29.790 --> 15:32.470]  So, uh... it'll be interesting to see what happens.
[15:32.470 --> 15:32.810]  Right.
[15:32.950 --> 15:42.270]  The... the common example that's being used a lot right now is Netflix, um... because they, as a company, they push an... an enormous amount of data over the internet, and it's a... it's a very popular service.
[15:42.450 --> 15:46.230]  So what if, uh... you, as an internet customer, um...
[15:46.230 --> 15:50.010]  were charged more to, uh... get a better connection specifically to Netflix?
[15:50.530 --> 15:58.370]  Um... your internet service provider would no longer be just connecting you to the internet in general, um... granting no favoritism to specific sites or services.
[15:58.370 --> 16:04.530]  The, uh... the ISP would now be able to do a deal with Netflix saying, well, we'll give you a little priority over other data.
[16:05.210 --> 16:14.310]  Um... and this, of course, creates a whole new layer of complexity to the issue of, like, um... basically, I think it has implications for freedom of speech.
[16:14.610 --> 16:28.030]  Um... if... if it's decided that your... what you're putting out there isn't as important as what Netflix is putting out there, and, of course, it's decided by somebody who Netflix is giving money to, then, uh... then what... what, uh... you know, what do you... what have you got left?
[16:28.030 --> 16:34.510]  There's another possibility, of course, which is that my internet provider and a lot of people's internet provider is the local cable monopoly.
[16:35.270 --> 16:38.970]  Um... and the cable monopoly could decide, you know, we don't like Netflix.
[16:39.170 --> 16:40.690]  We don't want to do a deal with them.
[16:40.790 --> 16:47.330]  We're going to degrade their traffic so that Netflix won't work so well, so that you'll be forced to, uh... pay the...
[16:47.330 --> 16:49.930]  the cable company's entertainment offerings.
[16:51.310 --> 16:53.970]  Um... and... and so that's pretty frightening as well.
[16:54.390 --> 16:55.570]  If I could just step in here...
[16:55.570 --> 16:58.210]  If I could just step in here for a second, uh...
[16:58.210 --> 16:59.350]  I just came in off the street, literally.
[16:59.950 --> 17:13.350]  Um... you're talking about the, um... uh... the victory for an unfettered internet that, uh... the federal court, uh... gave on... in honor of Aaron Schwartz, something that, uh... so close to the anniversary of his untimely death that, uh... this is what it is that,
[17:13.530 --> 17:14.610]  uh... we should be happy about.
[17:14.810 --> 17:17.530]  Yeah, see, this is why it's... this is why it stinks when you get here late, man.
[17:17.630 --> 17:17.770]  Yeah.
[17:17.770 --> 17:19.830]  You missed the whole, uh... you're talking about something a little different.
[17:19.830 --> 17:22.530]  I missed the briefing before the show on the slant we're supposed to take here.
[17:22.650 --> 17:35.970]  But from looking at my Wall Street Journal, which is where I get all my news, they say Federal Appeals Court in Washington slapped the FCC on Tuesday for overstepping its legal authority by trying to regulate Internet access.
[17:36.310 --> 17:37.370]  Regulation is bad.
[17:37.490 --> 17:39.750]  You know, we don't want to regulate the Internet.
[17:40.170 --> 17:44.010]  The FCC is now a two-time loser in court in the net neutrality efforts.
[17:44.290 --> 17:49.630]  Has the government learned its lesson or will the agency take a third stab at regulating the Internet?
[17:49.630 --> 17:53.190]  The answer to that question will affect the Internet's growth in the 21st century.
[17:53.470 --> 18:02.770]  Now, of course, the FCC, as we all know, has wanted to regulate the Internet since 2010 when they first promulgated rules for net neutrality.
[18:02.930 --> 18:08.290]  The rules, proponents argue, are needed to police Internet on-ramps, right, which I think you guys were talking about.
[18:08.410 --> 18:10.190]  But the trouble is nothing needs fixing.
[18:10.390 --> 18:16.270]  The Internet has remained open and accessible without FCC micromanagement since it entered public life in the 1990s.
[18:16.270 --> 18:25.990]  And more regulation could produce harmful results, such as reduced infrastructure investment, stunted innovation, slower speeds, and higher prices for consumers.
[18:26.310 --> 18:27.410]  Is that what you guys want?
[18:27.670 --> 18:28.530]  Mike, is that what you want?
[18:28.750 --> 18:28.970]  Yes.
[18:29.810 --> 18:30.290]  Absolutely.
[18:30.690 --> 18:36.430]  If that's how the Wall Street Journal describes net neutrality, then I disagree with their description, but it's still what I want.
[18:36.430 --> 18:40.230]  Well, that is what the people on the other side are saying, and they believe it.
[18:40.350 --> 18:47.390]  They actually think that this is a victory for free speech, for freedom of expression, and for the market.
[18:47.770 --> 18:54.370]  And, yeah, it's a lot of nonsense, but I think we need to be able to show in very clear terms why it's a lot of nonsense.
[18:54.370 --> 18:55.550]  I mean, so here's the thing.
[18:55.670 --> 19:03.530]  I'm sitting here in a university, and I only took one semester of economics when I was in university, and I didn't believe most of what I was told even then.
[19:03.710 --> 19:10.410]  But they talked a lot about markets and how markets work great when they are free and unfettered.
[19:11.890 --> 19:22.950]  But what has to happen for a market to work, even according to, like, boring capitalist economists who I don't trust, is that there's competition.
[19:23.450 --> 19:28.070]  And what the large internet providers try and do is they try and have it both ways.
[19:28.250 --> 19:31.530]  They want to have no regulation at all, but they want to be the only players.
[19:31.890 --> 19:37.170]  And that is not a recipe for a free market, even in the most classic capitalist sense.
[19:37.170 --> 19:38.970]  So I don't understand this line of reasoning.
[19:39.170 --> 19:47.550]  It doesn't meet the tests of markets that are presented in, you know, the first semester of econ for people who are forced to take it.
[19:48.810 --> 19:58.110]  So either their understanding of economics is a lot more advanced than mine, and there's just something I'm totally missing, or they're full of it.
[19:59.350 --> 20:00.050]  You pick.
[20:00.050 --> 20:12.310]  But their understanding of economics is I think they like large amounts of money, and they like being able to both make large amounts of money and use large amounts of money to get what they want out of the regulatory bodies they deal with.
[20:13.930 --> 20:14.450]  All right.
[20:14.530 --> 20:18.850]  Well, I guess this is a bad move then.
[20:19.230 --> 20:21.110]  Does anyone know where it's going to go from here?
[20:21.110 --> 20:34.950]  Well, I think that history has shown that the FCC, which is the purse strings for the FCC, are held by Congress.
[20:36.390 --> 20:50.090]  The way the way the hierarchy seems to work is the big telephone and cable TV companies and Internet service providers, they pretty much dictate what Congress says.
[20:50.690 --> 20:58.350]  And the FCC does whatever Congress tells them to do, which regulates these companies.
[20:58.950 --> 21:15.470]  So a couple, three years ago, there was a move to put Internet service providers back as common carriers, and there was this huge firestorm of anti-regulation propaganda, like you just read in the Wall Street Journal.
[21:16.230 --> 21:22.830]  I think the political winds are going to have to change before we're going to see any change, and it's really a shame that this changed about 10 years ago.
[21:22.830 --> 21:28.010]  So, you know, ISPs were considered common carriers, but under the George W.
[21:28.090 --> 21:34.470]  Bush administration, the FCC was told to revoke that label.
[21:34.670 --> 21:36.670]  So we'll have to see, but I'm not optimistic.
[21:37.050 --> 21:37.410]  Right.
[21:37.470 --> 21:52.630]  And if you'd like a picture of the general state of things when the large players are the only ones who get to have a say in how things work, you can look at network television, you can look at basically FM radio, with very few exceptions like this station here.
[21:53.490 --> 21:56.830]  It's basically all run by the people with lots of money who are all doing the same thing.
[21:56.950 --> 22:01.870]  None of it is all that interesting, and none of it is all that valuable to the audience.
[22:03.230 --> 22:03.770]  All right.
[22:03.950 --> 22:06.650]  Joining us on the phone right now is Kyle from Seattle.
[22:06.650 --> 22:07.410]  Are you with us?
[22:07.730 --> 22:08.450]  Yeah, I'm here.
[22:08.650 --> 22:08.930]  Okay.
[22:09.150 --> 22:10.710]  And now, Bernie, can you hear Kyle?
[22:11.170 --> 22:12.130]  Yeah, I hear him pretty well.
[22:12.310 --> 22:13.530]  Now, Kyle, can you hear Bernie?
[22:14.450 --> 22:15.250]  Yeah, I think so.
[22:15.570 --> 22:16.350]  You think so?
[22:17.490 --> 22:19.590]  Well, it sounds like you're vacuuming in there.
[22:19.910 --> 22:20.650]  Can you hear him?
[22:21.570 --> 22:22.650]  I can use the vacuum plate.
[22:22.830 --> 22:23.430]  I can use the vacuum plate.
[22:24.070 --> 22:24.750]  Not like Bernie.
[22:25.230 --> 22:25.570]  Hang on.
[22:25.690 --> 22:26.530]  One person at a time.
[22:26.630 --> 22:27.530]  Kyle, can you hear Bernie?
[22:29.430 --> 22:29.750]  Yeah.
[22:29.970 --> 22:30.370]  Okay, good.
[22:30.790 --> 22:32.450]  I think a plane was flying over your house.
[22:32.570 --> 22:32.970]  Is that what happened?
[22:33.450 --> 22:33.770]  Yeah.
[22:33.910 --> 22:34.370]  Oh, okay.
[22:35.370 --> 22:36.670]  You live pretty close to the airport.
[22:36.790 --> 22:37.370]  That is true.
[22:38.210 --> 22:38.650]  All right.
[22:39.430 --> 22:41.610]  We were battling with the phone system on top of everything else.
[22:41.610 --> 22:43.490]  I just want to say, I'm sorry I'm late.
[22:43.630 --> 22:48.450]  I'm late because we're a bunch of dumbasses downtown who wear NYPD uniforms.
[22:48.650 --> 22:55.030]  And it's kind of ironic because today was a very big milestone in fighting the NYPD for me.
[22:55.030 --> 23:01.710]  And it's just kind of ironic that they are the ones that prevented literally thousands of people in Times Square from getting onto subways.
[23:02.350 --> 23:03.550]  Nobody understands what they were doing.
[23:03.690 --> 23:12.110]  They basically closed off all the staircases to the 1, 2, and 3 lines and made everybody go through these little narrow ones when the platforms weren't that crowded.
[23:12.430 --> 23:14.410]  And basically, it took me an hour and a half to get uptown.
[23:14.430 --> 23:17.650]  As a result, I had to walk over to the A train and climb all those steps in the park.
[23:17.650 --> 23:20.050]  And it's just insane.
[23:20.210 --> 23:25.450]  But today was a happy occasion because it was the day that the...
[23:25.450 --> 23:42.410]  I don't know if you guys remember this, but back in 2004, I got literally roped into an unpleasant situation for several days on 16th Street near Union Square, ironically where the water main break took place today, and arrested for standing on a sidewalk.
[23:42.410 --> 23:45.790]  I was actually covering it for WBAI and WUSB and a couple of other places.
[23:46.730 --> 23:50.230]  And today, that lawsuit, yeah, we had a lawsuit against them, was settled.
[23:50.330 --> 23:54.470]  I'm going to read you a little bit of the NYCLU press release today.
[23:54.910 --> 24:06.890]  In a settlement announced today with the New York Civil Liberties Union and other civil rights advocates, New York City has agreed to pay nearly $18 million for the arrest, detention, and fingerprinting of hundreds of protesters, journalists, legal observers,
[24:07.030 --> 24:10.750]  and bystanders during the 2004 Republican National Convention.
[24:10.810 --> 24:11.930]  Yes, 2004.
[24:12.930 --> 24:15.970]  This is the largest protest settlement in history.
[24:16.630 --> 24:23.490]  The NYCLU filed the first cases following the convention, has been central to legal challenges to the NYPD's actions.
[24:23.590 --> 24:25.510]  And I got to say, these guys are incredible.
[24:25.770 --> 24:29.910]  If you have a million dollars donated to them and the National Lawyers Guild, they were tireless.
[24:30.070 --> 24:32.230]  They are everything that is good about lawyers.
[24:32.410 --> 24:40.790]  I've never seen people work so hard and tirelessly, and for pennies, too, compared to what people in the commercial sector and for New York City get.
[24:42.490 --> 24:49.050]  NYCLU Executive Director Donna Lieberman said, no law for protesters should ever be treated like a criminal in New York City or anywhere else in the United States.
[24:49.050 --> 25:02.130]  This historic settlement must serve as a reminder to New York City and government across the country that the right to protest is a fundamental pillar of a fair and functioning democracy, and it is the role of government and law enforcement to not only tolerate protests,
[25:02.230 --> 25:03.750]  but protect and defend it.
[25:03.750 --> 25:05.710]  Now, what's interesting here, I wasn't protesting.
[25:05.710 --> 25:06.370]  I was covering.
[25:06.550 --> 25:07.290]  I had a microphone.
[25:07.290 --> 25:08.150]  I had a camera.
[25:08.350 --> 25:12.710]  I was following people who were playing instruments and walking down a street.
[25:12.950 --> 25:15.750]  And what happened at that point, and this is all on film, too.
[25:15.830 --> 25:21.090]  It's all on our website, www.2600.com slash rnc2004.
[25:22.850 --> 25:26.430]  Basically, by walking down that street, I got trapped.
[25:26.710 --> 25:35.430]  They put those orange netting things on either side of the street, and they only let people leave if they had NYPD press passes.
[25:35.570 --> 25:42.030]  In other words, press passes that the NYPD gives you, just as in any police state, they have to tell you that, yes, in fact, you are a press.
[25:42.230 --> 25:46.510]  And the only people they give press passes to are those people that need to get behind crime scenes.
[25:46.510 --> 25:53.870]  If somebody gets murdered or something and they need to take a picture of that for some reason, those are the kinds of reporters that they give press releases to.
[25:53.870 --> 26:00.830]  I think in press passes, too, in all the history of WBAI, we've had one press pass in all the history of this place.
[26:00.930 --> 26:03.830]  So it's not likely that they're going to give you a press pass.
[26:03.950 --> 26:08.590]  So when I said, you know, I'm press, and I don't want to get arrested, they wouldn't let me leave.
[26:09.150 --> 26:12.930]  And that was the start of the hell that I went through.
[26:13.110 --> 26:16.410]  And even though I was with a thousand other people, it was still hell.
[26:16.510 --> 26:18.730]  It was still something that I would not wish upon anybody.
[26:18.730 --> 26:21.430]  So it's good to have it all come to an end, finally, today.
[26:22.130 --> 26:22.490]  Congratulations.
[26:22.890 --> 26:23.350]  Thank you.
[26:23.490 --> 26:30.910]  I didn't really do a whole hell of a lot except hang in there and try to forget about it, really.
[26:31.110 --> 26:31.250]  Yeah.
[26:31.390 --> 26:34.510]  And another fun fact about those NYPD press passes, I looked into that.
[26:34.630 --> 26:41.250]  And apparently part of the requirement is that you already have to have covered events that you would need an NYPD press pass to get close to.
[26:41.430 --> 26:42.030]  Now, that's a good one.
[26:42.030 --> 26:42.790]  How do you pull that off?
[26:43.290 --> 26:44.570]  I guess you got to sneak behind the press pass.
[26:44.710 --> 26:48.490]  You pull it off by working for a large media organization that has one they can lend you.
[26:48.970 --> 26:59.370]  Interestingly enough, there was a press conference today on the steps of City Hall, exactly two weeks to the day that you and I, Rob, were at the steps of City Hall watching the new mayor get sworn in, except we weren't on the steps.
[26:59.410 --> 26:59.750]  He was.
[26:59.850 --> 27:05.890]  This time we were on the steps and the press was there at the bottom of the steps filming and asking questions and things like that.
[27:06.190 --> 27:10.150]  But what's interesting is that none of that aforementioned major media were there.
[27:10.470 --> 27:12.290]  Channel 2, 4, 7, they weren't there.
[27:13.230 --> 27:16.550]  NYC was there and New York 1 was there.
[27:17.030 --> 27:19.310]  And I think WCBS Newsradio was there.
[27:19.450 --> 27:25.970]  And a whole lot, this is interesting, a whole lot of printed media journalists, people writing on notepads, literally writing on notepads.
[27:26.090 --> 27:27.930]  Must have been two dozen of those people.
[27:27.970 --> 27:32.890]  I don't know if they're working for blogs or newspapers or what, but that was kind of inspiring to see all those people.
[27:33.070 --> 27:43.670]  And, you know, they were wearing fedoras and they were basically looking like, you know, those old-time reporters that really chase a story until they get the scoop, you know?
[27:43.670 --> 27:44.250]  Emmanuel.
[27:44.430 --> 27:44.810]  Yes, Bernie.
[27:46.070 --> 27:48.370]  Congratulations on the legal victory today.
[27:48.370 --> 27:52.450]  But I'd like to know, what were the terms of the settlement, or is that secret?
[27:52.730 --> 28:04.610]  And are the individual police officers who apparently now, by a court ruling, violated your civil rights, were they personally held responsible?
[28:04.610 --> 28:13.590]  Or were the residents of New York who pay taxes, are they the ones who are going to have to pay this financial settlement?
[28:13.810 --> 28:15.470]  Well, Bernie, I think you know the answer to that.
[28:15.570 --> 28:19.250]  Have you ever heard of a case where that is not how it works?
[28:20.010 --> 28:23.790]  Everybody involved in this has been promoted in one way or another.
[28:23.990 --> 28:26.530]  The city has not even accepted any blame.
[28:26.810 --> 28:28.810]  And, you know, I got to be honest with you.
[28:28.890 --> 28:30.290]  For me, it was never about the money.
[28:30.290 --> 28:33.570]  I would have been happy if Bloomberg had simply said, you know what?
[28:33.570 --> 28:34.050]  I'm sorry.
[28:34.170 --> 28:35.030]  Here's an ice cream cone.
[28:35.130 --> 28:36.250]  It won't happen again.
[28:36.490 --> 28:37.550]  That would have made me happy.
[28:37.690 --> 28:38.830]  I would have walked away at that point.
[28:39.010 --> 28:41.710]  To this day, they have not admitted any wrongdoing.
[28:42.210 --> 28:47.450]  And, yeah, it's a crime that they steal from the citizens of this city in so many ways.
[28:47.450 --> 28:54.670]  For instance, just what it cost to put on that charade in 2004 dwarfs the amount of this settlement.
[28:54.670 --> 28:57.670]  And they do this in so many different ways.
[28:57.930 --> 29:04.130]  The only way to fight the system, though, is to take it to court and hope that this prevents it from ever happening again.
[29:04.330 --> 29:06.130]  Here, maybe other cities as well.
[29:06.950 --> 29:11.550]  So, yeah, you know, obviously the whole system is corrupt and needs to be remodeled.
[29:11.690 --> 29:16.410]  But I don't want to discourage people from fighting it when they get the chance to.
[29:16.410 --> 29:20.230]  But, Emmanuel, I don't understand where the accountability is.
[29:20.310 --> 29:35.310]  What's the incentive for the city to stop violating people's civil rights in that way when they just turn around and make the citizens, the taxpayers of New York, pay for their misdeeds?
[29:35.310 --> 29:36.850]  How is that going to change anything?
[29:37.070 --> 29:38.650]  Well, I don't know why you're asking me that.
[29:39.250 --> 29:40.870]  I don't have an answer for you.
[29:40.870 --> 29:46.430]  All I know is, if somebody does something that is unjust, you fight back.
[29:46.430 --> 29:49.730]  And the only method we had to fight back was through the courts.
[29:50.270 --> 29:52.330]  If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it.
[29:52.410 --> 29:54.950]  But right now, that's how the system works, you know?
[29:55.050 --> 29:59.990]  Well, they're obviously rhetorical questions, but I think they're questions that are worth people thinking about.
[30:00.210 --> 30:04.630]  Yeah, I just don't want to blame the victims here because, yeah, you know, they did what they were supposed to do.
[30:04.630 --> 30:11.310]  There were nearly 2,000 people that were imprisoned and victimized in various ways.
[30:11.410 --> 30:13.150]  And, you know, I was thinking about this earlier today.
[30:13.270 --> 30:14.410]  I've got asthma today.
[30:14.470 --> 30:16.890]  I did not have asthma 10 years ago, all right?
[30:16.950 --> 30:21.710]  And we were in Pier 57, which was a former bus depot filled with all kinds of chemicals.
[30:21.710 --> 30:22.890]  It was not cleaned up at all.
[30:23.010 --> 30:35.050]  And I heard today in the press conference, I didn't think about this until today, but the guy was telling the press, yeah, this was a dangerous place, and asthma was one of the risks of people that were exposed to this for very long.
[30:35.150 --> 30:38.530]  And that's all of a sudden when the bell clicked over my head, wow, you know what?
[30:38.550 --> 30:39.650]  I could have gotten it from this.
[30:39.770 --> 30:43.410]  And what I've spent on that so far is probably more than anything I'll ever get back.
[30:44.170 --> 30:53.250]  So, yeah, we're all victims in different ways, whether it's taxpayers or people that wind up in an unpleasant situation.
[30:53.470 --> 30:58.890]  It's just good to see it over, and I hope it never happens again, and maybe we'll learn lessons from this.
[30:59.310 --> 31:05.430]  So, I mean, I don't think Bloomberg has ever in his life said he was wrong about anything, and it's really not fair to expect that he would.
[31:05.650 --> 31:22.970]  But the question I have is, do you think that, as we've said before tonight, 2014 will be the year in which things get better, and the police department will stop these repressive tactics at protests, or do you think they'll just, like, accept that as a cost of doing business a decade later,
[31:22.990 --> 31:24.070]  they might have to pay some money?
[31:24.070 --> 31:33.290]  Look, the very first thing that happened to me after this was that a bunch of cops blocked me from getting where I wanted to go, and made my life ridiculously hard, because they had orders from on high.
[31:33.610 --> 31:38.070]  You know, it's no comparison, obviously, but cops are going to do what cops are told to do.
[31:38.210 --> 31:40.130]  That's just the way it works everywhere.
[31:40.410 --> 31:46.430]  So it's my hope that with the new administration, the kind of orders that came down from Bloomberg won't happen again.
[31:46.430 --> 31:50.570]  In fact, that's supposedly one of the reasons why this settlement happened now.
[31:50.950 --> 31:53.450]  Bloomberg did not want it to happen under his watch.
[31:54.310 --> 32:00.570]  You know, this only makes him look worse, because it makes it look like de Blasio is the one that did it when he didn't.
[32:01.650 --> 32:06.710]  But that's one of the reasons why it took so long, that they wanted Bloomberg to get out of here first.
[32:06.970 --> 32:08.430]  And, of course, he never got out of here.
[32:08.550 --> 32:09.870]  It took forever, 12 years.
[32:10.710 --> 32:13.130]  Now that he's gone, we can finally clean up the mess.
[32:13.130 --> 32:15.610]  That's one interpretation of why it took so long.
[32:16.230 --> 32:18.550]  I think it's a little bit unfair, though.
[32:18.850 --> 32:26.830]  Like, this is the way the police behave all across the country, with progressive mayors and regressive mayors and mayors of no political affiliation.
[32:28.270 --> 32:31.450]  The new police commissioner is the old police commissioner.
[32:31.770 --> 32:34.670]  So I don't know how things are going to change.
[32:34.770 --> 32:36.870]  I hope they will, but I don't know how that will happen.
[32:37.050 --> 32:41.010]  Well, it'll happen if we pay attention and if we fight back when things happen.
[32:41.010 --> 32:44.870]  And we pay attention to when other people are victimized, not just when it happens to us.
[32:45.490 --> 32:51.770]  And that's why you've got to listen to this radio station, because we're the only people that cover this through all the different shows.
[32:51.870 --> 32:52.490]  You know, it's interesting.
[32:52.650 --> 33:00.210]  I saw Andrea Sears down there, formerly of the former WBAI news department, which no longer exists, unfortunately, still covering the story.
[33:00.430 --> 33:02.150]  That's the kind of dedication people have here.
[33:02.310 --> 33:05.630]  Even when it crumbles around them, they still have an interest and they still show up.
[33:06.230 --> 33:10.330]  And hopefully the news department here is put back together, because it is sorely needed.
[33:11.590 --> 33:14.310]  But that is where you find out about this type of a thing.
[33:14.450 --> 33:16.190]  I mean, I was reporting for WBAI when it happened.
[33:16.330 --> 33:21.490]  I was live on the radio several times while I was in detention, unbeknownst to the people holding me.
[33:22.630 --> 33:24.830]  That kind of thing doesn't happen in other places.
[33:25.270 --> 33:27.050]  And it's not just during the RNC.
[33:27.290 --> 33:28.910]  It's not just during these massive gatherings.
[33:29.190 --> 33:32.390]  Every day, people are victimized in one way or another.
[33:32.570 --> 33:36.190]  And they're not lucky enough to have a thousand of their friends around them when it happens.
[33:36.710 --> 33:43.570]  And for the misery I felt, with a thousand friendly people around me, imagine how it is when you're all alone in that system.
[33:43.750 --> 33:44.550]  That happens every day.
[33:44.550 --> 33:46.230]  And you need to cover that.
[33:46.330 --> 33:49.450]  You need to follow that and fight that in every way possible.
[33:50.150 --> 33:52.310]  I mean, I don't think I'm telling you guys anything you don't know.
[33:52.390 --> 33:52.690]  Yes, Bernie.
[33:53.490 --> 33:54.810]  Is it okay to discuss...
[33:54.810 --> 33:56.290]  I'm looking on the New York Post.
[33:56.490 --> 33:58.150]  It has a really good article about this.
[33:59.330 --> 34:02.430]  Do you mind if I just mention the dollar amounts here that the city squandered on this?
[34:02.430 --> 34:02.850]  Sure.
[34:03.050 --> 34:05.830]  But mention the dollar amounts that they squandered on the RNC as well.
[34:06.350 --> 34:08.610]  I'm sure that was probably hundreds of millions of dollars.
[34:08.850 --> 34:11.310]  Well, I just don't want to focus on this because it sounds...
[34:11.310 --> 34:20.370]  Yeah, it's a lot of money, but it's dwarfed in comparison to what the city wastes every day on other things that it doesn't have to waste money on.
[34:20.730 --> 34:21.390]  But go ahead.
[34:21.510 --> 34:23.450]  Well, it says here that the total...
[34:23.450 --> 34:24.530]  This is in the New York Post today.
[34:24.750 --> 34:32.030]  The total cost for the city for these civil rights suits is reportedly more than $35 million.
[34:33.090 --> 34:41.430]  This includes another $16 million the city has already spent in legal fees fighting the case and more than $2 million shelled out to settle another 112 claims.
[34:42.170 --> 34:52.510]  And it says the city would not admit guilt under the agreement, which pays out about $10 million to the plaintiffs, or about $6,400 each, and another $7.6 million to the lawyers.
[34:52.690 --> 34:58.210]  And I should point out that $7.6 million to the lawyers is about a third of what the city paid its own lawyers.
[34:58.230 --> 34:59.690]  So that's not counted in there.
[34:59.770 --> 35:00.690]  That's more money they wasted.
[35:00.890 --> 35:01.570]  That's interesting.
[35:01.570 --> 35:14.270]  But what's important to note is that none of this should have happened in the first place had the city's police officers not willfully violated a whole bunch of people's civil rights.
[35:14.350 --> 35:15.010]  I think there was...
[35:15.010 --> 35:20.630]  How many hundreds of people were violated this way?
[35:20.670 --> 35:21.790]  There was about 2,000 people.
[35:21.910 --> 35:24.850]  But the interesting thing is that, yeah, they shouldn't have, but they were ordered to.
[35:25.050 --> 35:26.230]  And cops follow orders.
[35:26.230 --> 35:28.050]  Just like today in Times Square, they were following orders.
[35:28.150 --> 35:32.210]  I saw one cop saying to her co-officer, I have no idea what's going on.
[35:32.330 --> 35:34.210]  But they were still telling people not to go down the staircase.
[35:34.650 --> 35:36.830]  That would not have resulted in dangerous overcrowding.
[35:36.950 --> 35:37.990]  They just follow orders.
[35:38.210 --> 35:41.710]  And it's a ridiculous way to operate, but that is how they do it.
[35:42.030 --> 35:43.190]  And when George W.
[35:43.310 --> 35:49.750]  Bush was coming to town for RNC, they were told to keep the streets clear of any problems whatsoever.
[35:49.750 --> 35:50.750]  And I'll never forget.
[35:50.890 --> 35:53.930]  I'll never forget that time after I got out.
[35:53.970 --> 35:57.030]  And I was walking back to where it all began, Union Square Park.
[35:57.150 --> 35:58.410]  It's funny, Union Square is always the center.
[35:58.530 --> 35:59.390]  Today, water main break.
[36:01.230 --> 36:05.010]  That's where the arrest happened, and that's where I wound up walking after I got released.
[36:05.710 --> 36:08.910]  And you saw literally the police pulling away.
[36:09.510 --> 36:12.150]  And the word among the crowd was that George W.
[36:12.250 --> 36:13.190]  Bush had left the city.
[36:13.330 --> 36:20.450]  It was like a dictator leaving the area, and all of a sudden law enforcement disappears because there's no longer any threat of an insurrection.
[36:20.970 --> 36:25.930]  And that is the atmosphere that Bloomberg and the RNC brought to the city.
[36:25.950 --> 36:27.930]  And hopefully that will never happen again.
[36:29.790 --> 36:44.390]  Well, I hope the money that the ACLU, the NYC, the New York ACLU, won on this for itself, I'm sure that's going to be used to fight more cases because it takes on a lot of pro bono cases.
[36:44.850 --> 36:49.890]  So, the only problem I have with this is that the city is making the taxpayers pay for it.
[36:50.170 --> 36:54.550]  I would not fixate on the money so much, Bernie, because the money is going to be wasted no matter what.
[36:54.750 --> 36:56.090]  It's about justice.
[36:56.470 --> 36:58.350]  Today, justice was won.
[36:58.670 --> 37:01.250]  And, yeah, money was wasted in many ways.
[37:01.250 --> 37:03.670]  But let's please focus on the justice, okay?
[37:03.670 --> 37:05.550]  That is something we need to celebrate.
[37:06.190 --> 37:12.950]  Well, if they didn't admit that they did any wrongdoing, it's kind of a Pyrrhic victory, but a victory nonetheless.
[37:12.950 --> 37:13.550]  All right.
[37:14.930 --> 37:16.750]  Any other comments on this before we move?
[37:16.750 --> 37:18.230]  I don't want to focus too much on it.
[37:18.330 --> 37:23.030]  It's partially why I was late, but it's also partially why it's been such a crazy day for me.
[37:24.150 --> 37:25.310]  It's nice to see the end of that.
[37:25.630 --> 37:25.770]  Yeah.
[37:26.250 --> 37:27.110]  Kyle, anything from you?
[37:27.290 --> 37:27.790]  Can you hear us?
[37:29.090 --> 37:30.030]  Is Kyle still there?
[37:31.830 --> 37:32.250]  Oh, dear.
[37:32.290 --> 37:32.930]  I think we lost Kyle.
[37:33.130 --> 37:33.390]  I hear Kyle.
[37:33.410 --> 37:33.790]  No, no, no.
[37:33.990 --> 37:34.730]  I hear Kyle.
[37:34.790 --> 37:35.910]  I don't think you have him turned up.
[37:35.950 --> 37:37.110]  You hear him, but we don't.
[37:37.350 --> 37:38.090]  Kyle, are you there?
[37:38.190 --> 37:38.410]  I hear him.
[37:38.530 --> 37:39.430]  He's saying hello, hello.
[37:39.910 --> 37:40.030]  Hello?
[37:42.950 --> 37:43.410]  Anything from you?
[37:44.110 --> 37:47.170]  I just said congratulations, and I'm glad it worked out.
[37:47.290 --> 37:48.330]  It sounds like a victory.
[37:48.970 --> 37:49.110]  Yeah.
[37:49.310 --> 37:49.490]  Yeah.
[37:49.550 --> 37:55.770]  It was a hard-fought victory that I had very little to do with because the lawyers did all the work, and I was very impressed with that.
[37:55.990 --> 37:59.350]  It's good to have closure, completeness, or something like that.
[37:59.410 --> 37:59.610]  Yeah.
[37:59.810 --> 37:59.930]  Yeah.
[37:59.930 --> 38:06.270]  And, you know, shows that people will get back, will stay on top of it and follow up.
[38:06.490 --> 38:06.710]  Yeah.
[38:06.770 --> 38:08.890]  It was weird seeing people again, too, after 10 years.
[38:09.230 --> 38:10.370]  I can't believe it's been 10 years.
[38:10.370 --> 38:12.110]  That is really kind of crazy.
[38:12.870 --> 38:22.170]  But anyway, we have other things to deal with, other matters of importance, not the least of which is our convention coming up, which is one of the reasons why I brought you on tonight.
[38:22.810 --> 38:29.430]  The Hackers on Planet Earth conference taking place July 18th through 20th, known as Hope X because it's our 10th conference.
[38:29.830 --> 38:32.110]  And no, that doesn't mean we started 10 years ago.
[38:32.110 --> 38:33.390]  It means it's our 10th conference.
[38:33.390 --> 38:40.630]  We have them every two years, and Hope X is basically the latest incarnation of that.
[38:40.770 --> 38:49.530]  But what's particularly interesting, we opened pre-registration a week ago, Monday, and people have been registering online, which is great.
[38:49.750 --> 38:57.510]  But we did something new this week, something we've never done before, and something that, to the best of my knowledge, no other conference has done before in this country.
[38:57.510 --> 39:00.030]  And that is, we started taking bitcoins.
[39:00.590 --> 39:01.790]  Yeah, bitcoins.
[39:02.210 --> 39:03.830]  Now, Kyle, you're the person who put this together.
[39:03.950 --> 39:06.030]  You want to tell us something about how it transpired?
[39:07.330 --> 39:13.910]  Well, there's been a lot of different people talking about bitcoins over the last, I think, year or much longer, I'm sure.
[39:14.290 --> 39:26.730]  And I've been noticing it and discussing it a little bit amongst people I know, and it's gained a little bit of popularity, enough to consider taking it as another form of payment.
[39:26.730 --> 39:30.750]  But we didn't really know how it worked or what was going on.
[39:30.790 --> 39:44.450]  Everybody kept talking about it, and it seemed, well, complex, just by design, because it's a currency that uses cryptography to keep sort of an open ledger floating about.
[39:44.810 --> 39:49.050]  And that kind of eliminates the need for intermediaries.
[39:49.510 --> 39:50.790]  And it's a novel idea.
[39:50.790 --> 39:51.570]  It's kind of cool.
[39:51.710 --> 39:57.650]  If you've ever done international wire transfers and stuff, those things can be really complex and banks can take forever.
[39:57.930 --> 40:03.970]  They want you to sit there for like three hours and talk to them about their kids after school programs and stuff.
[40:04.170 --> 40:06.350]  And you're trying to get business done.
[40:06.510 --> 40:08.830]  So these new technologies are kind of exciting.
[40:08.990 --> 40:11.290]  And you had said, like, I want to use one of these.
[40:11.390 --> 40:13.350]  I want to try out some bitcoins.
[40:13.370 --> 40:15.510]  And I'm like, OK, well, how do we do that?
[40:15.510 --> 40:16.470]  Like, I don't even...
[40:16.470 --> 40:18.730]  As I said, we were both learning about it.
[40:18.730 --> 40:20.130]  I didn't know what's involved.
[40:20.130 --> 40:28.430]  And I did a little bit of research about the history and then went from there and figured out ways we could set up a wallet.
[40:28.450 --> 40:31.830]  You need some place that can hold digital stuff.
[40:33.330 --> 40:34.210]  And yeah.
[40:34.770 --> 40:35.730]  Well, it was interesting.
[40:35.930 --> 40:37.310]  You say we look into it.
[40:37.730 --> 40:39.750]  I still don't understand how it works, to be honest.
[40:39.750 --> 40:45.330]  I do know it's a digital currency and there's all kinds of safeguards and balances and things like that.
[40:45.390 --> 40:46.770]  But you don't actually get a Bitcoin.
[40:46.990 --> 40:50.070]  There's no actual physical currency you can touch.
[40:50.090 --> 40:51.830]  It's all done electronically.
[40:52.090 --> 40:53.670]  And we didn't really know what to expect.
[40:53.670 --> 40:56.410]  We just knew that this is something that a lot of hackers are playing with.
[40:56.470 --> 40:59.770]  It's something that is global in nature.
[41:00.210 --> 41:01.690]  And why not?
[41:01.690 --> 41:02.850]  It's an experiment.
[41:02.990 --> 41:03.430]  Let's experiment.
[41:03.570 --> 41:04.450]  Let's try something new.
[41:04.590 --> 41:07.930]  And we've had a smattering of registrations so far.
[41:07.930 --> 41:10.230]  And what we've seen, it's pretty easy.
[41:10.430 --> 41:11.010]  It's pretty simple.
[41:11.190 --> 41:21.510]  And what's cool about it is that when you register, all you have to give us is an email address that we send you your ticket at because you have to get your ticket somehow and any name in the world you want to use.
[41:21.610 --> 41:26.050]  And then you simply give us Bitcoins and they turn into real money for us.
[41:26.150 --> 41:27.750]  And, you know, I'm putting real money in air quotes.
[41:27.810 --> 41:37.250]  But I do hear people say that they bought their hope ticket with Bitcoins and they feel like they got in for free because even though they're Bitcoin users, they don't feel like it's Real money.
[41:38.110 --> 41:40.950]  And I mean, at some point, it's got to be real money, right?
[41:41.090 --> 41:41.530]  I don't know.
[41:42.110 --> 41:42.830]  It works.
[41:42.850 --> 41:46.510]  And the fees for us are negligible compared to banks.
[41:46.670 --> 41:49.510]  So it actually... it's better in that regard.
[41:49.750 --> 41:51.830]  Just to clarify, we still do accept real money?
[41:51.890 --> 41:52.370]  Yes, we do.
[41:52.510 --> 41:52.750]  Okay.
[41:52.950 --> 41:53.710]  Yeah, we do accept real money.
[41:53.950 --> 41:58.030]  I mean, that's useful for those of us who are paid and otherwise have our expenses in real money.
[41:58.150 --> 41:58.310]  Yeah.
[41:58.450 --> 42:02.850]  But, you know, that involves credit cards and traditional bank type things.
[42:02.910 --> 42:03.950]  And if you're comfortable with that, great.
[42:04.230 --> 42:05.730]  I can mail you a check if you prefer.
[42:05.730 --> 42:06.770]  You can do that as well.
[42:06.930 --> 42:08.370]  But, yeah.
[42:08.470 --> 42:11.150]  But most people use electronic ways of doing it.
[42:11.210 --> 42:14.390]  You know, there are still people who think, oh, my God, how can a hacker conference take credit cards?
[42:14.390 --> 42:15.950]  Because all hackers are thieves, after all.
[42:17.170 --> 42:20.970]  You know, there's all these impressions that you have to correct.
[42:21.650 --> 42:27.850]  So by doing this, we're experimenting with something new and seeing just what it's all about and how many people will do this.
[42:29.010 --> 42:29.810]  I'm very curious.
[42:29.890 --> 42:31.710]  And plus, we want to get some Bitcoins of our own, you know?
[42:32.050 --> 42:35.210]  Kyle, the goal is to get a Bitcoin of our own, right?
[42:36.470 --> 42:40.150]  Yeah, I think that's kind of our aim on some level.
[42:40.330 --> 42:41.910]  We'd like to accrue at least one.
[42:42.150 --> 42:45.250]  But it's not a good way to save money.
[42:45.370 --> 42:48.570]  It's not something you would consider an investment by any means.
[42:48.570 --> 42:51.010]  But that's absolutely right.
[42:51.270 --> 42:55.810]  The things you just mentioned are all, like, interesting attributes and things we're looking at.
[42:55.810 --> 43:02.170]  And it is true that it's as simple as exchanging a key.
[43:02.350 --> 43:20.150]  And then for our purposes with Hope Sales, we really just need an email, a way to contact you, and some kind of name or handle, anything that kind of we can link to that email address just for clerical reasons, basically.
[43:20.150 --> 43:21.070]  That's all we need.
[43:21.190 --> 43:27.530]  And then what happens is you initiate a purchase just like you might check out with, like, a PayPal account.
[43:27.830 --> 43:37.650]  And it pops you into a screen that you then enter a key from... that is associated with your Bitcoin wallet.
[43:37.650 --> 43:39.850]  Yeah, if you use Bitcoin, you should know what this is.
[43:39.950 --> 43:41.690]  It's basically how you would make a transaction.
[43:41.690 --> 43:49.310]  Yeah, it's kind of like other technologies we've talked about in the past, like PGP or GPG.
[43:49.550 --> 44:02.570]  Like, it uses strings of numbers for verifying and then becoming integrated in the blockchain, which is that ledger I talked about, this public transaction.
[44:03.130 --> 44:04.430]  It's really pretty cool.
[44:04.490 --> 44:06.970]  And I feel very modern doing something like this.
[44:07.610 --> 44:08.770]  And a little naughty, too.
[44:09.250 --> 44:12.890]  But you basically have to put your email address in, whatever name you choose.
[44:13.030 --> 44:13.870]  It can be anything you want.
[44:13.950 --> 44:15.450]  And there's also a field for comments.
[44:15.870 --> 44:18.250]  And we couldn't figure out how to make that optional.
[44:18.250 --> 44:19.370]  So you have to type something.
[44:19.710 --> 44:21.790]  So type a period if you don't want to type anything.
[44:22.230 --> 44:24.130]  And then you're... it's as simple as that.
[44:24.210 --> 44:24.570]  It's done.
[44:24.750 --> 44:25.630]  And Bernie, you had a question.
[44:26.190 --> 44:35.490]  Yeah, of course, I want to tell you that for up until just a couple of minutes ago, I could just hear a faint buzzing noise in place of Kyle's voice.
[44:35.610 --> 44:38.950]  But then you'd... something changed, and now I hear him better again.
[44:39.070 --> 44:41.170]  So there's... maybe it has something to do with adjustment on the board.
[44:41.290 --> 44:42.310]  But the question of...
[44:42.310 --> 44:43.170]  I turned you down.
[44:43.290 --> 44:45.330]  So when I turn you down, I think you can hear better.
[44:46.730 --> 44:48.750]  I'll turn you down more often, then, if that's what you want.
[44:48.950 --> 44:51.310]  Well, whatever it takes, you know, as long as I can be heard.
[44:51.310 --> 44:57.350]  But the other question I had is, can I... can I purchase my Hope X ticket with tulip bulbs?
[44:58.110 --> 45:00.310]  Well, they'd have to be pretty good quality.
[45:00.530 --> 45:02.470]  We can... we can negotiate that later.
[45:02.670 --> 45:04.230]  I have some of the finest tulip bulbs.
[45:04.670 --> 45:06.470]  I'm telling you, these are the best tulip bulbs.
[45:06.530 --> 45:09.770]  If by tulip bulbs, you're... you're... you're saying what I think you're saying.
[45:09.770 --> 45:11.070]  Yes, we can definitely do business.
[45:11.990 --> 45:16.230]  Okay, well, you know, that's a... that's an oblique reference to...
[45:16.230 --> 45:16.430]  Bernie.
[45:16.570 --> 45:17.610]  ...a 1500s craze.
[45:17.670 --> 45:17.830]  Hello?
[45:18.070 --> 45:20.950]  Yeah, I think tulip bulbs are really a fascinating...
[45:21.690 --> 45:26.530]  ...currency to use because their value is based on the fundamental laws of botany.
[45:26.790 --> 45:29.250]  And so it's really a reliable thing.
[45:29.290 --> 45:31.970]  And we... we should... we should put all our faith in it.
[45:32.130 --> 45:38.430]  Well, Mike, if you can design an interface that converts tulip bulbs into dollars that go into the bank, I'm all for it.
[45:38.850 --> 45:40.970]  And right now... right now, Bitcoin does that pretty well.
[45:41.130 --> 45:42.030]  So I'm happy with that.
[45:42.550 --> 45:44.350]  The Dutch... the Dutch figured that out.
[45:44.430 --> 45:48.950]  Back in the 1500s, the Dutch economy was largely based on the trading of tulip bulbs.
[45:48.990 --> 45:51.170]  Well, that may be so, but there weren't many hacker conferences back then.
[45:51.310 --> 45:54.970]  I don't think they... they really did it in the numbers that we're talking about right now.
[45:55.050 --> 45:55.910]  But again, I'm open to it.
[45:55.990 --> 45:57.890]  I'm open to whatever people want to develop.
[45:58.050 --> 45:58.630]  And... and you know what?
[45:58.690 --> 46:02.610]  We're open to all sorts of projects and innovation at the conference.
[46:02.650 --> 46:04.030]  And we want people to get involved.
[46:04.230 --> 46:06.230]  We're going to launch our website in a day or two.
[46:06.810 --> 46:10.250]  And we're going to be opening up calls for speakers and projects and things like that.
[46:10.310 --> 46:11.810]  What are some of the projects we've been talking about?
[46:11.830 --> 46:18.610]  We've been talking about pneumatic tubes and... and... and Lego villages and computer networks and all sorts of things, right?
[46:19.790 --> 46:20.270]  Oh, yeah.
[46:20.510 --> 46:25.670]  What I really hope will happen is that we get some proposals for things that have never been done at any hacker conference before.
[46:25.930 --> 46:27.510]  And that will totally shock us.
[46:27.690 --> 46:27.990]  Exactly.
[46:28.150 --> 46:29.690]  That's kind of what we're trying to do here is...
[46:29.690 --> 46:33.690]  I mean, the pneumatic tube thing that I saw at the chaos thing was really cool.
[46:33.850 --> 46:35.410]  But I almost don't want to see it at Hope.
[46:35.450 --> 46:37.250]  I want to see something new and different.
[46:37.250 --> 46:37.770]  I didn't see it, Mike.
[46:37.870 --> 46:38.330]  You saw...
[46:38.330 --> 46:38.990]  I'll show you my pictures.
[46:39.250 --> 46:40.230]  I want to see it in...
[46:40.230 --> 46:42.970]  I want to put something in the pneumatic tube and have it show up someplace else.
[46:43.470 --> 46:44.250]  That's what I want to do.
[46:44.250 --> 46:45.250]  That's all I want to do.
[46:45.590 --> 46:48.170]  And I think we in New York can put something like that together.
[46:48.390 --> 46:50.270]  But yeah, we totally want to hear from you.
[46:50.270 --> 46:58.870]  If you have an idea for a project, if you have an idea that's not been done before, if you have an idea that you think is silly, let us know about it anyway, because we've got such...
[46:58.870 --> 47:05.930]  our hacker community and our Hope community are such a wide range of eclectic, brilliant people who work in all these different fields.
[47:06.090 --> 47:09.650]  And it's amazing what we can come up with and get working.
[47:09.830 --> 47:10.430]  So let us know.
[47:10.670 --> 47:11.890]  Projects at Hope.net.
[47:11.890 --> 47:23.890]  And just to give out the information on how to register to, whether it be by Bitcoin or by that other currency, x.hope.net is our email address, our web address, rather, x.hope.net.
[47:23.990 --> 47:27.250]  And that basically will show you links to all the things that you need to know.
[47:27.390 --> 47:32.150]  You can also type three X's, 18 X's, and then three more X's, and you'll get the same thing.
[47:32.250 --> 47:33.490]  But why bother?
[47:34.490 --> 47:39.170]  And we'll have more information coming out in days and weeks ahead about the conference.
[47:39.250 --> 47:40.630]  But there's a lot of anticipation about this.
[47:40.730 --> 47:44.130]  A lot of cool things are in the works.
[47:44.530 --> 47:46.370]  And the website is being launched soon?
[47:46.710 --> 47:48.330]  The website is being launched soon, yes.
[47:48.830 --> 47:49.410]  That's good to know.
[47:49.470 --> 47:51.090]  So people go to x.hope.net.
[47:51.090 --> 47:53.530]  They're just going to see like a placeholder webpage right now.
[47:53.690 --> 47:54.450]  Well, you'll see...
[47:54.450 --> 47:55.350]  Yeah, they'll see information.
[47:55.470 --> 47:58.130]  It's not really a placeholder that says coming soon or anything like that.
[47:58.130 --> 48:02.910]  But it's one page that gives you the information that we have right now, which is what we're talking about.
[48:03.170 --> 48:06.890]  But in the days ahead, if you keep going to that website, you will see more.
[48:07.210 --> 48:08.570]  I'm going to make you a promise, Emmanuel.
[48:08.630 --> 48:12.470]  I will register as soon as that black website goes away.
[48:12.630 --> 48:15.170]  That sounds like extortion to me, but I'm used to it.
[48:15.770 --> 48:17.470]  All right, Kyle, any last words from you?
[48:17.490 --> 48:18.890]  Because we're going to take phone calls now.
[48:18.950 --> 48:23.750]  And I dread to think what will happen if we try to have two guests on and callers.
[48:24.970 --> 48:28.830]  Oh, yeah, just check out the news story on our site.
[48:29.010 --> 48:35.390]  And there's links and you can make your purchase if you're interested in this technology and what we've put together for that.
[48:35.550 --> 48:37.250]  And we're just really excited for hope.
[48:37.450 --> 48:42.810]  And please contact us with some of those addresses you gave out and get involved.
[48:43.750 --> 48:49.150]  All right, I think we all want to thank you for putting this together and making it possible for us to take bitcoins for the first time.
[48:49.270 --> 48:51.310]  And again, I think this is the first conference I did.
[48:51.310 --> 48:55.790]  I know there were a couple of Bitcoin conferences in this country that took bitcoins.
[48:55.990 --> 48:57.410]  And that's cool, but it doesn't really count.
[48:57.550 --> 48:58.350]  They're Bitcoin conferences.
[48:58.670 --> 49:01.350]  But we're definitely the first hacker conference.
[49:01.350 --> 49:02.850]  And I think maybe the first conference.
[49:03.210 --> 49:04.130]  I might be wrong.
[49:04.270 --> 49:05.770]  Maybe it's something else happened we're not aware of.
[49:06.170 --> 49:08.650]  Very, very few entities are doing this.
[49:08.770 --> 49:16.210]  So we want to do more things like this where we're trying something new that might be a little crazy or different or even dangerous.
[49:18.210 --> 49:19.850]  So that's the spirit of hope.
[49:20.690 --> 49:22.970]  Anyway, thanks for your work.
[49:23.070 --> 49:25.810]  And we hope to do more such fun things in the future.
[49:26.830 --> 49:27.650]  Yeah, absolutely.
[49:27.950 --> 49:28.270]  All right.
[49:29.050 --> 49:29.850]  Thanks again.
[49:30.110 --> 49:31.030]  We will take some phone calls now.
[49:31.150 --> 49:35.030]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[49:36.550 --> 49:37.690]  And let's take a call.
[49:37.910 --> 49:38.410]  Good evening.
[49:38.570 --> 49:39.370]  You're on Off the Hook.
[49:39.870 --> 49:40.790]  Oh, it's so good.
[49:40.790 --> 49:41.450]  I'm on the air.
[49:41.610 --> 49:42.210]  Good evening.
[49:42.470 --> 49:45.610]  I want to make a couple quick comments about last week's show.
[49:45.610 --> 49:54.530]  And in the end, it's a testament to Maury Marksman, because most of it I learned by listening to programmers who were nurtured under his privilege.
[49:54.830 --> 49:54.990]  All right.
[49:55.030 --> 49:56.150]  This sounds like it could be long.
[49:56.290 --> 49:57.530]  So try and make it brief.
[49:57.730 --> 49:58.710]  It's going to be super quick.
[49:59.150 --> 50:04.350]  There was never a discontinuation of Dirty Tricks by the FBI after the 70s.
[50:04.470 --> 50:06.410]  It continued on until today.
[50:06.410 --> 50:07.890]  It's been a continuous process.
[50:08.190 --> 50:09.490]  It's always going to exist.
[50:09.490 --> 50:10.510]  It's just what it is.
[50:10.650 --> 50:18.690]  If you want to learn about COINTELPRO, there's a really great book by this woman, Catherine Olmstead, called Investigating the Secret Government.
[50:18.970 --> 50:32.610]  And it was actually this guy, Otis Pike, who was a congressman from Long Island, who one of his staff members leaked his report, congressional investigation on COINTELPRO to the Village Voice.
[50:32.770 --> 50:35.070]  And that's what really, like, blew it up.
[50:35.070 --> 50:36.910]  And Frank Church gets a lot of credit.
[50:37.110 --> 50:40.510]  But mostly, Otis Pike was relentless in his coverage.
[50:40.630 --> 50:42.090]  And I found out he's still alive.
[50:42.290 --> 50:43.790]  I'm going to look into how I get a hold of him.
[50:44.010 --> 50:45.210]  Otis Pike is still alive?
[50:45.870 --> 50:48.050]  That's what he said on Google.
[50:48.550 --> 50:49.690]  I mean, on...
[50:50.410 --> 50:50.850]  Yeah.
[50:51.170 --> 50:51.450]  Wow.
[50:51.530 --> 50:52.230]  I didn't know that.
[50:52.370 --> 50:52.990]  I just assumed...
[50:52.990 --> 50:54.410]  Well, Otis Pike is listening.
[50:54.590 --> 50:55.870]  My apologies.
[50:56.210 --> 51:03.110]  You know, break-ins at CISPA, the crack cocaine, three-way Ricky Rod.
[51:03.110 --> 51:05.430]  Okay, well, we could go on for hours.
[51:05.430 --> 51:08.890]  But thanks for all that information and for connecting it all together.
[51:08.890 --> 51:10.330]  We're going to try and take some more phone calls.
[51:10.470 --> 51:13.930]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[51:14.710 --> 51:15.890]  And we're sorry for all the...
[51:15.890 --> 51:17.270]  I accidentally disconnected Bernie, too.
[51:17.510 --> 51:20.070]  This phone system is just out of its mind, I think.
[51:20.250 --> 51:21.530]  But let's try this one over here.
[51:21.570 --> 51:21.910]  Good evening.
[51:22.050 --> 51:22.710]  You're on off the hook.
[51:23.370 --> 51:24.870]  You see, it's not even picking up.
[51:25.010 --> 51:25.590]  It turns green.
[51:25.690 --> 51:26.650]  It doesn't turn orange anymore.
[51:26.650 --> 51:28.430]  I don't know what's going on.
[51:28.530 --> 51:30.970]  We also had some trouble earlier getting Bernie to connect.
[51:31.170 --> 51:32.570]  So there's something up with this phone.
[51:32.710 --> 51:34.410]  We apologize to the listeners who are calling.
[51:34.570 --> 51:35.490]  See, I answered now.
[51:35.590 --> 51:36.230]  Is anybody there?
[51:36.490 --> 51:37.390]  See, there's nobody there.
[51:37.910 --> 51:39.110]  You know, even though I answered.
[51:39.530 --> 51:41.290]  It's so crazy and weird.
[51:42.650 --> 51:48.150]  So the calls are coming in, and we're picking them up, but we can't put them on the air because the light is not turning orange.
[51:48.150 --> 51:48.890]  It's turning green.
[51:49.050 --> 51:49.750]  And that means...
[51:49.750 --> 51:50.730]  I don't know what it means.
[51:52.410 --> 51:52.770]  And...
[51:53.130 --> 51:54.510]  Okay, this one is now orange.
[51:54.510 --> 51:55.450]  Hello, is somebody there?
[51:56.170 --> 51:57.250]  Now, you see, now they've hung up.
[51:58.110 --> 52:01.390]  It's like someone is out there trying to figure out ways we can't take phone calls.
[52:02.530 --> 52:03.330]  Green means go.
[52:03.590 --> 52:04.770]  I'm going to put this on hold.
[52:04.950 --> 52:06.130]  Okay, I figured out a way around it.
[52:06.190 --> 52:07.730]  If I put it on hold, I can pick it up then.
[52:07.790 --> 52:08.030]  Good evening.
[52:08.130 --> 52:08.750]  You're on off the hook.
[52:09.470 --> 52:10.310]  Yes, good evening.
[52:10.450 --> 52:10.610]  Hi.
[52:11.530 --> 52:15.150]  I'm having trouble with my telephone having an echo.
[52:15.370 --> 52:16.590]  What causes that echo?
[52:16.730 --> 52:17.950]  Oh, if we knew the answer to that.
[52:19.290 --> 52:21.650]  We would have much better sounding radio shows here.
[52:22.330 --> 52:23.670]  What kind of phone do you have?
[52:23.710 --> 52:24.570]  What kind of echo is it?
[52:25.610 --> 52:26.450]  Well, it's...
[52:26.450 --> 52:30.850]  The type of phone I have is a mobile phone, AT&T.
[52:31.530 --> 52:33.130]  There's your problem right there.
[52:33.610 --> 52:37.290]  You're getting some kind of cell phone echoing, I would imagine.
[52:37.570 --> 52:39.010]  It's a mobile phone, you say?
[52:39.590 --> 52:40.290]  Yes, it is.
[52:40.430 --> 52:42.470]  It's only one station that I call, though.
[52:42.770 --> 52:43.970]  If I call other...
[52:43.970 --> 52:45.710]  Now, I'm not getting an echo with you.
[52:46.010 --> 52:47.650]  I don't get echoes with other people.
[52:47.650 --> 52:52.430]  But one station that I call, I get this echo wondering what caused it.
[52:52.650 --> 52:55.830]  It has to do with the way the phone connects.
[52:56.270 --> 53:00.430]  When I talk to people sometimes on my cell phone, oftentimes I can hear myself one second later.
[53:01.170 --> 53:04.350]  Basically, whenever you do talk to somebody on a cell phone, there is a slight delay.
[53:04.910 --> 53:06.430]  And a lot of us don't realize that.
[53:06.550 --> 53:11.050]  And that accounts for why you wind up spending a lot of time talking over each other and not hearing each other.
[53:12.930 --> 53:15.070]  Usually, if you call back again, it goes away.
[53:15.070 --> 53:16.350]  Or if they call you, it goes away.
[53:16.630 --> 53:23.530]  If it keeps happening, that means whatever service you're using just doesn't have a very good system in place.
[53:23.690 --> 53:25.710]  And I've heard this complaint before about AT&T.
[53:25.830 --> 53:27.750]  But in all fairness, I've heard it about all the companies.
[53:29.130 --> 53:38.910]  I don't really have a solution, but I found that sometimes when I place a phone call, there's echo for the first few seconds of the call, and then it magically goes away.
[53:38.910 --> 53:42.110]  That doesn't, of course, help if you're only making a short call in the first place.
[53:42.210 --> 53:45.090]  If you blow into the phone really hard, sometimes it gets the echo away.
[53:45.510 --> 53:48.710]  I think your advice may be a little out of date on that.
[53:48.710 --> 53:49.150]  Yeah, but you know what?
[53:49.310 --> 53:51.810]  By what you just said, it goes away after a few seconds.
[53:51.810 --> 53:54.050]  People will believe when they do that, that that's how it works.
[53:54.050 --> 53:54.530]  Oh, I see.
[53:54.590 --> 53:55.510]  And that's how you start things like that.
[53:55.570 --> 53:58.810]  You just want people blowing into their conversation partner's ears all the time.
[53:58.990 --> 53:59.230]  It can't hurt.
[53:59.410 --> 54:00.050]  It can hurt.
[54:00.190 --> 54:00.490]  All right.
[54:00.910 --> 54:01.790]  Thanks for that call.
[54:01.850 --> 54:02.410]  We're going to move on.
[54:02.490 --> 54:02.890]  Good evening.
[54:03.070 --> 54:03.870]  You're on Off the Hook.
[54:04.970 --> 54:05.330]  Hello?
[54:09.670 --> 54:11.790]  I had called before, and then I got cut off.
[54:12.030 --> 54:15.590]  He had to go ahead, and I started talking, and then he said, oh, see, we can't hear him.
[54:15.710 --> 54:17.330]  Okay, well, now we do hear you, so go ahead.
[54:17.490 --> 54:18.650]  Okay, yeah, let's move forward.
[54:18.870 --> 54:19.610]  We don't want to go on.
[54:19.650 --> 54:20.270]  Got to labor it.
[54:20.370 --> 54:33.150]  I think also these lawsuits should also attack the PBA, because the PBA is part of the support system that supplies legal representation for cops, and that's their benevolence and their retirement and so on and so on.
[54:33.150 --> 54:38.630]  And maybe they're different accounts, but it is part of the soup that is sour.
[54:39.530 --> 54:43.670]  And I don't think there's any reason for any of them and all of them to be the way they are.
[54:43.790 --> 54:48.670]  But, you know, there's a couple good ones, but there's not a couple bad ones and a whole bunch of good ones.
[54:48.790 --> 54:50.030]  And why is that?
[54:50.650 --> 54:52.590]  It's just so wrong, so wrong.
[54:52.590 --> 54:53.850]  Yeah, it is wrong.
[54:54.090 --> 55:02.750]  But when something like this happens, it sends a warning that, you know what, you're going to look bad, you're going to lose at some point, even if the taxpayers wind up paying for it.
[55:03.030 --> 55:05.330]  Taxpayers wind up paying for everything that happens anyway.
[55:06.150 --> 55:09.130]  This is not a good day for the NYPD, not a good day for the Bloomberg administration.
[55:09.410 --> 55:11.530]  And that's what we need to focus on and remember.
[55:11.930 --> 55:13.710]  And I hope it's something de Blasio remembers.
[55:13.850 --> 55:15.450]  I don't think this will happen under his administration.
[55:15.650 --> 55:22.370]  Maybe I'll be wrong, but I'd like to think that part of the reason why he was elected was because of the misdeeds of his predecessor.
[55:22.670 --> 55:23.650]  But we'll just have to see.
[55:24.130 --> 55:25.190]  Thanks for that call.
[55:25.250 --> 55:26.270]  Let's take another one.
[55:27.650 --> 55:28.290]  And good evening.
[55:28.430 --> 55:28.930]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:30.190 --> 55:30.750]  Go ahead.
[55:31.770 --> 55:32.130]  Speak up.
[55:32.190 --> 55:33.270]  Hey, I have a problem with my telephone.
[55:33.450 --> 55:34.570]  People keep hanging up on me.
[55:34.630 --> 55:35.910]  You know, okay, Bernie, I'm sorry about that.
[55:35.990 --> 55:40.270]  But, you know, you took just as long to respond as the callers were chastised.
[55:40.450 --> 55:41.610]  So do you have your radio on?
[55:42.070 --> 55:45.050]  No, I was listening online.
[55:45.250 --> 55:45.950]  I heard that.
[55:46.030 --> 55:49.390]  But no, as soon as I heard on my phone that...
[55:49.870 --> 55:53.490]  sort of buzzing sound that means you're answering, I said hello immediately.
[55:53.890 --> 55:54.890]  Well, I didn't hear that.
[55:55.030 --> 55:55.850]  I don't think anybody else heard.
[55:56.030 --> 55:58.870]  So apparently there's some kind of a delay at your end.
[55:59.070 --> 56:02.850]  So give people who call in a couple of seconds extra, maybe.
[56:03.570 --> 56:09.070]  Because I said hello immediately as soon as I heard any sound that you were answering.
[56:09.230 --> 56:10.810]  Wait, you said hello before I said hello?
[56:11.110 --> 56:12.090]  No, I heard...
[56:12.090 --> 56:14.890]  Like, I think we said it about the same time.
[56:14.890 --> 56:24.190]  No, well, okay, it's common protocol between radio talk show host and radio talk show phone in-caller that the talk show host gives the greeting first.
[56:25.210 --> 56:26.890]  Well, you got the word in first.
[56:27.110 --> 56:29.110]  And then I said, hello, I have a problem with my phone.
[56:29.250 --> 56:35.610]  So anyhow, it seems like if you're hanging up on people accidentally, maybe there's some delay that you need to give them another couple seconds.
[56:35.630 --> 56:36.090]  Well, maybe.
[56:36.190 --> 56:37.070]  But that's not the problem today.
[56:37.470 --> 56:39.670]  Today the problem was the light was green and would not turn orange.
[56:39.830 --> 56:41.170]  It's turning orange now, which is great.
[56:41.750 --> 56:43.670]  But unfortunately, we don't have any calls coming in.
[56:43.830 --> 56:45.790]  So I'm almost out of time.
[56:45.930 --> 56:47.730]  So if anybody else wants to call in, now's the time to do it.
[56:47.790 --> 56:50.890]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[56:50.950 --> 56:52.450]  We have about maybe one minute left.
[56:54.810 --> 56:55.450]  Any other...
[56:55.450 --> 56:56.890]  I do want to say, I mean, I hope I'm wrong.
[56:57.050 --> 57:01.470]  But I don't know that things are getting better under de Blasio, specifically with the police.
[57:01.610 --> 57:04.850]  If you look at the mayor of Oakland, who I've met, who's a nice woman.
[57:05.050 --> 57:06.850]  I know her daughter socially.
[57:07.830 --> 57:10.610]  And she's as progressive as they come for politicians.
[57:10.970 --> 57:16.830]  And the police department under her watch brutally crack down on the Occupy Oakland thing.
[57:16.990 --> 57:20.950]  And there'll be lawsuits coming out of that for years and decades to come.
[57:21.090 --> 57:23.630]  So it doesn't just take a nice person.
[57:23.790 --> 57:24.410]  No, that's true.
[57:24.610 --> 57:27.650]  And the police department is not something that you can just rein in overnight either.
[57:28.550 --> 57:29.850]  And power corrupts.
[57:30.690 --> 57:34.090]  I don't care if you're talking about a hall monitor or a president.
[57:34.090 --> 57:35.450]  And power corrupts.
[57:35.490 --> 57:36.870]  It happens quite often.
[57:37.630 --> 57:38.150]  All right.
[57:38.150 --> 57:39.950]  We are out of time, unfortunately.
[57:40.610 --> 57:43.690]  And that's going to have to do it for us here tonight.
[57:43.990 --> 57:45.390]  You can write to us.
[57:45.530 --> 57:48.110]  O-T-H at 2600.com.
[57:48.250 --> 57:49.410]  That is our email address.
[57:49.730 --> 57:57.870]  We are going to go out with something dedicated to those misguided souls who insist on supporting net neutrality.
[57:58.710 --> 58:01.910]  And this is just a little piece of what it's all about.
[58:02.090 --> 58:02.570]  Have a good night.
[58:02.570 --> 58:03.990]  No, hear this.
[58:04.390 --> 58:05.630]  No, hear this.
[58:06.050 --> 58:09.210]  I want to talk to you about a critical issue of our day.
[58:09.630 --> 58:10.650]  Net neutrality.
[58:10.870 --> 58:14.790]  If you spend time on the internet for work or school or fun, listen up.
[58:14.930 --> 58:16.590]  In case you don't know what's going on.
[58:16.690 --> 58:18.670]  We're halfway to the apocalypse right now.
[58:18.790 --> 58:27.270]  The bill effectively ends what's known as net neutrality, which is the concept that everyone everywhere should have free universal and non-discriminatory access to the internet.
[58:27.470 --> 58:29.510]  No matter what your political agenda...
[58:29.510 --> 58:30.590]  Net neutrality.
[58:30.590 --> 58:32.390]  ...protects your freedom of speech.
[58:32.610 --> 58:35.210]  The multi-billion dollar corporations like AT&T...
[58:35.210 --> 58:35.950]  ...level three...
[58:35.950 --> 58:36.530]  ...verizon...
[58:36.530 --> 58:37.010]  ...cogeant...
[58:37.010 --> 58:37.770]  ...comcast...
[58:37.770 --> 58:38.110]  ...and...
[58:38.110 --> 58:38.550]  ...others...
[58:38.550 --> 58:45.370]  ...want to be able to decide which websites open quickly, which don't, what information passes through, and which does not.
[58:45.510 --> 58:46.310]  You know what that means?
[58:46.310 --> 58:59.650]  They want to come in and discriminate against musicians, small business entrepreneurs, special interest groups, competition, consumer choice, political and environmental activist groups, bloggers, democracy, church groups, and average Joes.
[58:59.770 --> 59:03.210]  They seek to impose and expand an empire of oppression.
[59:03.450 --> 59:07.230]  They want to undermine the democratic potential of the internet.
[59:07.650 --> 59:08.390]  That isn't fair.
[59:08.390 --> 59:11.270]  We cannot allow this to happen.
[59:11.610 --> 59:13.470]  The world has turned against this.
[59:13.570 --> 59:18.050]  We've even got the Christian Coalition and the NRA involved in this because...
[59:18.050 --> 59:19.530]  Let me just make this point once again.
[59:19.770 --> 59:27.270]  Everybody understands that if you have anything that's remotely not mainstreamed, that this can be blocked if these measures go through.
[59:27.270 --> 59:28.290]  Call Congress.
[59:28.430 --> 59:28.750]  Tell them...
[59:28.750 --> 59:29.350]  Two questions.
[59:29.630 --> 59:29.790]  One.
[59:29.950 --> 59:31.850]  Do you support freedom for your constituents?
[59:32.370 --> 59:32.590]  Two.
[59:32.710 --> 59:37.150]  Do you support discrimination and favoritism for multi-billion dollar corporations?
[59:37.450 --> 59:38.830]  Call in all radio talk shows.
[59:38.910 --> 59:39.210]  Tell them...
[59:39.210 --> 59:43.150]  I don't want big corporations to decide what I can or cannot view on my computer.
[59:43.330 --> 59:43.590]  All right.
[59:43.690 --> 59:45.170]  This is a major issue.
[59:45.690 --> 59:47.930]  They're doing it right now.
[59:48.110 --> 59:48.290]  Now.
[59:50.290 --> 59:51.090]  Mr. Chairman.
[59:51.410 --> 59:52.090]  Yes, sir.
[59:52.170 --> 59:52.490]  I'm sorry.
[59:52.710 --> 59:53.710]  I thought you were finished.
[59:53.930 --> 59:54.010]  I'm sorry.
[59:54.110 --> 59:54.750]  No, I'm not finished.
[59:57.270 --> 59:59.070]  I want to make sure people understand my position.
[59:59.210 --> 01:00:00.630]  I'm not going to take a lot of time.
[01:00:01.150 --> 01:00:01.450]  But...
[01:00:01.450 --> 01:00:02.930]  Let me just make this point once again.
[01:00:03.150 --> 01:00:06.450]  The internet is not something that you just dump something on.
[01:00:06.550 --> 01:00:07.390]  It's not a big truck.
[01:00:07.750 --> 01:00:09.210]  It's a series of tubes.
[01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:09.970]  Tubes.
[01:00:10.210 --> 01:00:10.410]  Tubes.
[01:00:20.960 --> 01:00:30.480]  The WBAI Community Advisory Board will be holding open meetings at the station's office at 388 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn every Sunday.
[01:00:30.860 --> 01:00:33.080]  These meetings will begin at 1 p.m.
[01:00:33.080 --> 01:00:41.280]  and will include discussions of the latest developments concerning the lease management agreement issue and your idea on programming.
[01:00:41.500 --> 01:00:45.140]  The meetings will be on every Sunday starting at 1 p.m.
[01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:53.120]  Again, WBAI's Community Advisory Board will be holding meetings at 388 Atlantic Avenue at 1 p.m.
[01:00:53.120 --> 01:00:59.900]  At the WBAI office at 388 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn starting at 1 p.m.
[01:01:00.220 --> 01:01:03.040]  Expect the work and help with the station needs.
[01:01:03.220 --> 01:01:05.160]  With your help, we will get through this.
[01:01:05.380 --> 01:01:08.680]  All are welcome and invited to come and participate.