[00:00.000 --> 00:01.460]  Hey, Tom Harbin here.
[00:02.300 --> 00:04.040]  WBAI is important.
[00:04.280 --> 00:06.260]  Radio for the 99%.
[00:06.260 --> 00:14.720]  Unlike commercial radio, WBAI does not have rich corporations as sponsors, no deep well of corporate support to keep them on the air.
[00:14.880 --> 00:16.440]  But they do have something better.
[00:16.740 --> 00:20.280]  You, the listeners and members of WBAI.
[00:20.580 --> 00:24.200]  You are our sponsors and our community.
[00:24.500 --> 00:26.080]  WBAI can't do it without you.
[00:26.240 --> 00:29.360]  Please help keep this honored and beloved station on the air.
[00:29.360 --> 00:34.420]  You won't find movement politics and social justice anywhere else on the radio.
[00:34.740 --> 00:36.240]  We can't do this without you.
[00:36.400 --> 00:37.380]  I'm here for you.
[00:37.740 --> 00:39.000]  WBAI is here for you.
[00:39.360 --> 00:40.720]  Please donate now.
[00:41.020 --> 00:45.120]  Go to give2wbai.org with the digit 2 in there.
[00:46.220 --> 00:47.220]  Give2wbai.org.
[00:47.340 --> 00:50.120]  Tune in evenings at 5 p.m.
[00:50.360 --> 00:53.120]  for Tom Harbin on WBAI.
[00:53.260 --> 00:53.780]  Thank you.
[00:54.300 --> 00:56.160]  And you're listening to WBAI New York.
[00:56.320 --> 00:57.320]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:57.420 --> 00:59.240]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:52.220 --> 02:52.940]  All right.
[02:53.040 --> 02:54.460]  We've killed about enough time here.
[02:54.760 --> 02:59.960]  We're trying to make a phone call, which, believe it or not, in the 21st century here at WBAI is a challenge.
[03:00.540 --> 03:01.740]  This is Off the Hook.
[03:01.840 --> 03:02.860]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[03:02.960 --> 03:04.020]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[03:04.260 --> 03:04.760]  Hi there.
[03:04.840 --> 03:05.140]  Rob T.
[03:05.300 --> 03:05.660]  Firefly.
[03:05.860 --> 03:06.200]  Good evening.
[03:06.860 --> 03:08.460]  Bernie S., are you with us?
[03:10.420 --> 03:18.220]  You see, this is part of the problem, that he has to make the phone call for us because we're not able to make the phone call from here, apparently.
[03:19.700 --> 03:21.360]  Is this a long-distance call?
[03:21.440 --> 03:24.940]  It's a long-distance call, which I was assured at the beginning of the program would work.
[03:25.800 --> 03:30.180]  Unfortunately, I didn't test it on the very instrument we were going to use until just before the show.
[03:31.040 --> 03:31.800]  I'm so sorry.
[03:32.720 --> 03:33.820]  And we seem to have lost Bernie.
[03:33.900 --> 03:34.660]  Bernie, are you with us?
[03:35.620 --> 03:36.360]  No, he's not there.
[03:36.460 --> 03:37.840]  I don't know what happened here.
[03:38.400 --> 03:39.000]  Actually, you know what?
[03:39.000 --> 03:39.820]  That's the wrong color.
[03:39.820 --> 03:41.600]  This phone line is the wrong color.
[03:42.080 --> 03:43.940]  And now it's not on at all.
[03:44.060 --> 03:44.940]  It just winked out.
[03:45.780 --> 03:47.020]  Hopefully, we'll hear...
[03:47.020 --> 03:49.200]  We had this so well planned out.
[03:49.900 --> 03:50.300]  Unreal.
[03:50.540 --> 03:50.720]  Unreal.
[03:51.100 --> 03:51.300]  Okay.
[03:51.440 --> 03:59.360]  Well, we have some stories and updates and things like that to move us along while we're working out our technical issues.
[04:00.100 --> 04:00.940]  This is Off the Hook.
[04:00.960 --> 04:01.700]  We're back on the air.
[04:01.800 --> 04:05.740]  We're not asking for money tonight, although you might be able to see why we desperately need it.
[04:06.440 --> 04:09.540]  But we have all kinds of interesting things coming up.
[04:10.000 --> 04:12.240]  Let me tell you about something that's happening in a week.
[04:12.420 --> 04:14.120]  A week and a couple of days.
[04:14.840 --> 04:17.420]  As you know, the HOPE Conference is underway.
[04:17.640 --> 04:20.380]  It's not underway, but the planning for it is well underway.
[04:20.680 --> 04:24.800]  It's taking place July 18th, 19th, and 20th, Hotel Pennsylvania, New York City.
[04:25.460 --> 04:31.360]  We've already had a phenomenal response as far as speaker submissions, people pre-registering, things like that.
[04:32.380 --> 04:36.960]  But we would like to get more people involved in the actual coordination of the conference.
[04:36.960 --> 04:38.920]  Because many people ask, how can I get involved?
[04:38.980 --> 04:42.040]  And we figured we'd have a method for people to do this.
[04:42.440 --> 04:47.960]  So the next 2600 meeting, which will be a week from this coming Friday, I believe it's April the...
[04:48.360 --> 04:49.060]  Oh, hang on.
[04:49.300 --> 04:49.980]  The 4th?
[04:50.040 --> 04:50.660]  Is that right, Rob?
[04:50.780 --> 04:51.560]  You seem to know these things.
[04:52.640 --> 04:54.060]  I believe it's the 5th.
[04:54.260 --> 04:54.940]  Is it the 5th?
[04:55.020 --> 04:55.200]  Okay.
[04:55.340 --> 04:56.120]  I think the 4th.
[04:56.460 --> 04:56.960]  Well, you know what?
[04:56.960 --> 04:57.960]  You guys can debate that.
[04:58.280 --> 05:01.240]  Whatever Friday, first Friday of the month, I think it's the 4th.
[05:02.120 --> 05:05.580]  Will happen at the Citigroup Center here in New York City.
[05:06.480 --> 05:13.060]  And we are inviting people to come to that meeting if they're interested in helping out with help coordination.
[05:13.840 --> 05:15.000]  Now, that's in New York City.
[05:15.140 --> 05:17.260]  Obviously, for people who are local, it's easier.
[05:17.660 --> 05:21.000]  Those of you who aren't local, there'll be other opportunities for you to get involved as well.
[05:21.160 --> 05:30.480]  But for now, we're going to have our first big coordinating meeting in New York City on Friday the 4th of April.
[05:30.480 --> 05:31.980]  It's the 4th, I'm confirmed.
[05:32.180 --> 05:33.320]  Around 5, 6 p.m.
[05:33.400 --> 05:34.040]  Citigroup Center.
[05:34.200 --> 05:37.820]  That's on 53rd Street between Lexington and Park.
[05:38.100 --> 05:40.420]  I'm glad I found this out now and didn't show up on Saturday.
[05:41.000 --> 05:41.620]  Well, yeah.
[05:41.640 --> 05:43.940]  I think we show up on Friday, regardless of what the date is.
[05:44.060 --> 05:46.980]  So that's how it's going to work as far as that goes.
[05:47.100 --> 05:49.320]  So we basically meet in the lobby, the atrium.
[05:49.680 --> 05:50.820]  There's room for many people there.
[05:51.200 --> 05:54.920]  And that's how we've coordinated things in the past.
[05:54.920 --> 05:55.900]  So we're looking forward to that.
[05:56.960 --> 06:01.780]  I'm going to try and find Bernie, because he seems to have fallen into telco hell or whatever.
[06:02.100 --> 06:05.180]  This is amazing how things can get so messed up so quickly.
[06:05.940 --> 06:09.060]  Do you guys have anything to talk about while I do this, or should I play some music?
[06:09.900 --> 06:10.920]  There's lots going on.
[06:11.460 --> 06:17.340]  I don't know what we're going to talk about later, but did you hear Obama is going to end mass dragnet surveillance?
[06:17.540 --> 06:18.500]  He's going to end it.
[06:18.680 --> 06:19.480]  That's what he says.
[06:19.480 --> 06:24.700]  But of course, the New York Times, of all entities, editorialize, you know, if he wanted to, he could just do it tomorrow.
[06:24.800 --> 06:27.340]  He doesn't need Congress to help.
[06:27.460 --> 06:29.740]  But he's submitting a bill to the Congress anyway.
[06:31.140 --> 06:34.760]  His way of ending dragnet surveillance is to legalize it.
[06:34.840 --> 06:36.260]  So I'm not sure exactly how that works.
[06:36.440 --> 06:37.580]  Oh, well, that makes perfect sense.
[06:37.780 --> 06:41.060]  Wait, so he's going to end it by legalizing it?
[06:41.660 --> 06:43.300]  Yes, apparently.
[06:43.580 --> 06:48.460]  So he's got this crazy idea that only two hops away.
[06:48.460 --> 07:05.660]  So if there's a suspected terrorist, which is not the same thing as an actual terrorist or a convicted terrorist or anything else, but if there's a suspected terrorist, then people who that person calls can be surveilled and people who they call can also be surveilled.
[07:06.640 --> 07:19.820]  And as our friend Matt Blaze pointed out, this means that, you know, like if you've called American Airlines, you are two hops away from the 9-11 people who are actual terrorists, not just merely suspected terrorists.
[07:20.120 --> 07:25.560]  So it's a huge number of people who are going to be covered by this thing that Obama says is okay.
[07:27.180 --> 07:32.820]  And apparently they're going to get access to more telecom carriers than they had under the secret program.
[07:33.120 --> 07:35.840]  And this is Obama's way of ending dragnet surveillance.
[07:36.040 --> 07:36.560]  It's really...
[07:36.560 --> 07:39.700]  I'm impressed at his way with words, but not much else here.
[07:39.920 --> 07:41.440]  Well, that makes a certain kind of sense.
[07:41.440 --> 07:44.820]  If you want to end something illegal happening, all you have to do is make it legal.
[07:46.660 --> 07:53.300]  But I'm not sure what else this is going to achieve that's in any way good for the people that are being surveilled unjustly.
[07:53.840 --> 07:57.660]  I mean, there's always some benefit to knowing what's going on.
[07:58.920 --> 08:04.140]  Bringing bad things into the light is, you know, a little bit better than just doing them in secret.
[08:04.140 --> 08:06.340]  But that's the only benefit I see here.
[08:06.420 --> 08:07.380]  And Snowden already did that.
[08:07.380 --> 08:14.200]  Let's be clear, this is only happening because Snowden, but that's the only benefit that I can find.
[08:14.400 --> 08:24.180]  Well, something else that's happening because of Ed Snowden, and this is actually an honor, something that I know many people have been working at for a number of years.
[08:24.480 --> 08:26.920]  And it's kind of...
[08:26.920 --> 08:30.040]  It brings a tear to my eye that this actually succeeded.
[08:30.240 --> 08:36.740]  For a number of years, Reporters Without Borders has had a list of enemies of the internet.
[08:37.460 --> 08:44.160]  And, um, favorites like Syria, Iran, North Korea, Russia, they've always been on this thing.
[08:44.700 --> 08:51.820]  This year, this year, the United States made it onto the list of the eight biggest enemies of the internet and the United Kingdom.
[08:52.000 --> 08:58.160]  And they're crediting much of this with the Snowden leaks, crediting the Snowden leaks with this honor.
[08:58.900 --> 09:01.200]  India also made it this year, so did China.
[09:01.820 --> 09:06.120]  So, um, yeah, the award ceremony for this is really going to be very touching.
[09:06.660 --> 09:08.540]  It's the first time the U.S.
[09:08.660 --> 09:11.160]  has earned Reporters Without Borders dubious honor.
[09:11.400 --> 09:13.580]  Did you say there's only eight enemies of the internet?
[09:13.780 --> 09:14.640]  Well, these are the top eight.
[09:14.800 --> 09:19.080]  I guess everybody can offend it in some way, but, you know, eight is, uh, that's pretty good.
[09:19.120 --> 09:21.600]  I don't know how we rank on the...
[09:21.600 --> 09:26.120]  I don't know if they rank it by number, but, uh, we're up there.
[09:26.240 --> 09:30.880]  We're up there, and that's something, something definitely for many people that I know personally will be proud of this.
[09:31.340 --> 09:32.220]  Bernie, are you with us?
[09:32.220 --> 09:36.040]  I'm here, and I have Eva Galfrin with EFF on the line, I believe, too.
[09:36.320 --> 09:40.440]  Eva, yeah, there's been no end of trouble trying to reach you from our system here.
[09:40.640 --> 09:46.800]  Uh, we were just getting a fast busy when we tried calling California, so either all circuits are out or our system just doesn't want to get through to California.
[09:47.400 --> 09:50.460]  Uh, Eva from EFF, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
[09:50.920 --> 09:55.280]  Uh, and what you guys do is really, um, uh, it's mind-boggling.
[09:55.280 --> 10:05.420]  Uh, I just read the story about Reporters Without Borders, uh, monitoring the United States on the internet and the enemy level that, uh, our current government, uh, has, has achieved.
[10:05.640 --> 10:09.020]  Uh, but this is the kind of thing that you encounter pretty much every day, right?
[10:09.740 --> 10:10.620]  Oh, absolutely.
[10:11.180 --> 10:18.660]  Um, I actually thought one of the most interesting things about, uh, the Reporters Without Borders enemies of the internet list, uh, is who was missing.
[10:18.920 --> 10:22.140]  Uh, not that they have finally gotten around to adding, uh, the U.S.
[10:22.240 --> 10:32.740]  and the U.K., uh, in addition to the sort of mainstays that we see on there every year, like China or Iran, um, but, um, I was very surprised, uh, not to see Turkey this year.
[10:33.080 --> 10:49.040]  Um, admittedly, this was, uh, somewhat, uh, before the, uh, the Twitter ban, uh, but Turkey has been, uh, violating its citizens' rights to free expression by blocking Google sites and, you know, arresting, uh, journalists who post online, uh, for years.
[10:49.520 --> 11:06.720]  Um, I was also, uh, not to see Jordan, uh, which initiated a ban on 300 news sites this year, um, and those sites remain blocked, uh, and also countries like, uh, Morocco, uh, which has also been engaged in a whole lot of blocking and arresting of journalists.
[11:06.860 --> 11:10.220]  You see, the problem is, is only eight, eight, uh, eight entries.
[11:10.360 --> 11:16.040]  It would be great if everybody could win, but with only eight posts being offered in this particular, they need to expand it.
[11:16.040 --> 11:16.480]  They really do.
[11:16.560 --> 11:17.360]  They, it needs to be 80.
[11:17.860 --> 11:19.100]  Yeah, it's just too few.
[11:19.340 --> 11:22.240]  Um, because yes, all those countries should be on there and many more too.
[11:23.220 --> 11:23.660]  Absolutely.
[11:24.180 --> 11:24.620]  Well.
[11:24.620 --> 11:27.500]  How do we quantify, uh, the rankings on this list anyway?
[11:28.740 --> 11:37.560]  Well, uh, it's, it's largely subjective, which is why I use, why you see, uh, so much disagreement about who and who should not be on it.
[11:37.820 --> 11:55.320]  Um, but I definitely think that, uh, the countries that are engaged in, uh, in broad-based, uh, internet censorship and, uh, arresting, uh, journalists engaged in independent journalism and what we usually think of as, you know, fully protected freedom of expression,
[11:55.660 --> 11:57.060]  sure are in a high place on this list.
[11:58.000 --> 11:58.400]  Absolutely.
[11:59.000 --> 12:00.660]  Um, uh, you mentioned Turkey.
[12:00.740 --> 12:02.220]  We're going to talk about Turkey in just a moment.
[12:02.300 --> 12:15.320]  The first, I wanted to, um, uh, tell people about something else that we're doing next week, which is a pretty exciting conjunction, uh, with the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the Hope Conference coming up this, um, this July, starting at the beginning of April,
[12:15.400 --> 12:17.060]  April 1st until April 30th.
[12:17.180 --> 12:23.100]  Every ticket that we sell, we will be donating 10% of the price to the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[12:23.320 --> 12:37.680]  So what that means is if you get a, uh, a ticket to attend the conference and you buy that during the month of April, uh, you'll be not only getting a ticket to the conference, but you'll be making a donation to the Electronic Frontier Foundation at the same time,
[12:37.740 --> 12:51.120]  which I could not think of a better way, uh, to voice your support for the kinds of things that we talk about week after week, the, the, the, the struggles that people are involved in as far as, uh, uh, fighting for freedom of speech, uh, getting, uh,
[12:51.280 --> 13:01.460]  internet access and, and, um, and, and equality spread fairly evenly in various parts of the world and just making people aware of the many things going on.
[13:01.460 --> 13:16.540]  Because, uh, if you go to EFF.org, you will see how many of these, uh, cases and, um, and, and, um, the countries that are involved in all sorts of, uh, of, um, controversies involving freedom of speech, internet access, uh, telephony.
[13:16.800 --> 13:18.940]  Um, it's, it's mind boggling.
[13:19.080 --> 13:25.260]  And this is one way to make sure that, uh, that particular, um, that particular door is always open.
[13:25.260 --> 13:37.900]  Um, so if you are, if you get a ticket between the April 1st and April 30th to, um, the Hope Conference, and you can go to, uh, www.hope.net for more information on that, uh, you will be making a donation at the same time.
[13:38.020 --> 13:40.560]  And I think, uh, Eva, we did this, uh, two years ago as well.
[13:40.700 --> 13:41.040]  Is that correct?
[13:41.320 --> 13:41.520]  Yes.
[13:41.620 --> 13:42.060]  Yes, we did.
[13:42.520 --> 13:44.600]  And it turned out pretty well then as well.
[13:44.720 --> 13:46.360]  So, uh, that's starting next week.
[13:46.440 --> 13:50.460]  But Eva, I wanted to, uh, bring up the turkey thing because, yeah, this is something that's, uh, that's been in the news.
[13:50.760 --> 13:54.560]  Uh, there is, um, a ban on, on Twitter.
[13:54.560 --> 13:57.060]  Actually, is the ban on Twitter in Turkey still in place?
[13:57.060 --> 14:01.480]  Has it been, uh, um, gotten around or, or, or rescinded?
[14:02.400 --> 14:04.160]  Um, not yet.
[14:04.540 --> 14:15.260]  As of right now, it is still not possible to, uh, to reach Twitter if you are in Turkey without engaging in some form of censorship circumvention.
[14:15.480 --> 14:27.760]  The good news is that because Turkey has been involved in sort of widespread censorship of popular websites, for such a long time, censorship circumvention is absolutely nothing new to the Turkish people.
[14:28.000 --> 14:30.840]  And, um, almost everybody knows how to do it.
[14:31.080 --> 14:36.940]  Uh, earlier, uh, last week, a lot of people were simply, uh, using, uh, Google's DNS.
[14:37.260 --> 14:40.060]  And I don't know if you saw any of the graffiti that was going around.
[14:40.060 --> 14:41.640]  8.8.8.8.
[14:42.180 --> 14:44.580]  That's, that's, that's the DNS.
[14:44.960 --> 14:55.520]  I never thought, I never thought that I would see the, the fantastic cyberpunk future in which people would graffiti, uh, DNS servers, IPs on walls, uh, to enable censorship circumvention.
[14:55.780 --> 14:57.120]  That was a fine moment.
[14:57.220 --> 14:59.480]  It's almost, it's easy enough where you can just remember that, obviously.
[14:59.700 --> 15:01.920]  And the need for graffiti isn't even there anymore.
[15:02.160 --> 15:07.560]  Uh, but isn't it a relatively simple thing for, uh, for the powers that be to simply block that somehow?
[15:08.280 --> 15:09.200]  And then they did.
[15:09.780 --> 15:13.700]  Uh, and furthermore, they went ahead and they blocked, uh, many of Twitter's IPs.
[15:13.760 --> 15:17.220]  And that made it a little bit harder, uh, to, uh, to get to Twitter.
[15:17.400 --> 15:24.940]  Um, but it, you know, barely slowed people in Turkey down because almost everybody knows how to use a proxy or a VPN or Tor.
[15:25.240 --> 15:37.120]  And Tor is still, you know, uh, the number one tool that I recommend to most people for censorship circumvention because, uh, it is much, much harder to block than just about anything else.
[15:37.440 --> 15:37.800]  Okay.
[15:37.840 --> 15:40.180]  How can people get involved in that to start with?
[15:40.280 --> 15:42.340]  Someone listening right now, hearing of Tor for the first time?
[15:43.180 --> 15:45.000]  Well, uh, there are a couple of things they can do.
[15:45.060 --> 15:52.060]  If they want to use Tor, uh, or become part of the Tor network, they should go to www.torproject.org.
[15:52.300 --> 15:55.800]  Um, if they would like to use the Tor browser, they can download the Tor browser there.
[15:55.960 --> 16:04.080]  If they would like to contribute to the, the strength and speed of the Tor network, uh, they should read the Tor legal FAQ.
[16:04.260 --> 16:10.200]  And if they feel sort of prepared to do so, uh, I, I strongly encourage people to, uh, to run a relay.
[16:10.500 --> 16:13.120]  And let me also point out, Tor is spelled T-O-R.
[16:13.600 --> 16:17.040]  Um, it stand, or it did stand for the onion router.
[16:17.220 --> 16:17.520]  Is that correct?
[16:18.300 --> 16:18.540]  Yes.
[16:18.880 --> 16:20.640]  Tor is also the German word for gate.
[16:21.360 --> 16:21.760]  Nice.
[16:21.860 --> 16:23.340]  That worked out, uh, very well.
[16:23.780 --> 16:37.720]  Um, you know, a few years ago, Tor was something that very few people use, but now we're talking about, um, populations in, in, in other countries, using it as a way to get around, um, government censorship and, and, and, um, attempts to control things.
[16:38.040 --> 16:40.380]  First of all, what, what led to this in Turkey?
[16:40.540 --> 16:43.380]  Why did they go ballistic over the fact that Twitter existed?
[16:44.800 --> 16:59.300]  Well, there are a couple of reasons, but the, the sort of excuse that the Erdogan government is using is, uh, that there were some tweets about government corruption, which, uh, they wanted block, uh, which they wanted taken down.
[16:59.620 --> 17:03.980]  And, uh, there was a user, uh, who's, uh, identifying information.
[17:04.120 --> 17:06.160]  There was an anonymous user that they wanted unmasked.
[17:06.360 --> 17:26.280]  And so they sent the illegal requests to Twitter and Twitter, which does not have an office in Turkey and is therefore not, um, not obliged to follow Turkish law, uh, basically said, well, well, tough luck, uh, eventually, I think as of yesterday, uh,
[17:26.700 --> 17:42.780]  uh, Twitter did give in a little bit and, uh, instituted a per country block on the offending tweets, meaning that if you are in Turkey, you can no longer read the two offending tweets that, uh, the Erdogan government complained about.
[17:43.040 --> 17:47.580]  Um, however, if you are in Turkey, you also can't read the rest of Twitter.
[17:47.580 --> 17:53.100]  Uh, so, uh, this is sort of not a, not a terribly, um, effective move.
[17:53.360 --> 18:00.300]  Uh, they still have not unmasked, uh, the information of the anonymous user, and I don't think that they intend to do so.
[18:01.020 --> 18:06.300]  Uh, so we'll see how long the standoff continues for, certainly through the upcoming election.
[18:06.640 --> 18:11.120]  Hey, Eva, do we know what these two horrible tweets said?
[18:11.300 --> 18:14.380]  Wait, wait, wait, don't say it, or a show will get banned in Turkey.
[18:15.460 --> 18:16.820]  Uh, they can do that, right?
[18:16.940 --> 18:19.040]  I mean, it's, it's, you can't even save these...
[18:19.040 --> 18:20.440]  First of all, couldn't this...
[18:20.440 --> 18:22.140]  These were tweets about, about government corruption.
[18:22.200 --> 18:23.060]  And it could come from anywhere.
[18:23.260 --> 18:24.160]  It doesn't have to be in Turkey.
[18:24.340 --> 18:27.000]  Somebody in the United States could tweet about Turkish government.
[18:27.400 --> 18:29.600]  How are they going to react against that?
[18:30.440 --> 18:30.800]  Absolutely.
[18:31.500 --> 18:33.560]  Uh, and, and that is one of the great concerns.
[18:33.920 --> 18:36.660]  It's, you know, just who, who controls this platform?
[18:37.340 --> 18:39.700]  And, uh, whose laws apply?
[18:39.980 --> 18:54.660]  Uh, which is one of the reasons why, uh, Twitter and, and also Google have these sort of per country takedowns, which allows them to, uh, sort of follow the law in one place while not necessarily banning the content for all of the other countries in which,
[18:54.740 --> 18:57.360]  uh, in which that content is still perfectly legal.
[18:57.540 --> 19:01.960]  And that also makes it very easy to see the content by, you know, using some sort of circum...
[19:01.960 --> 19:03.840]  uh, censorship circumvention technology.
[19:04.080 --> 19:06.520]  Now, do you happen to know, uh, what was said in those two tweets?
[19:06.660 --> 19:10.820]  What, what could possibly get somebody so upset in, in two lines of, of, of text?
[19:11.520 --> 19:17.700]  I, I don't have the exact translation, but it was, uh, it was a, a reference to a, uh, to a corruption scandal.
[19:18.940 --> 19:19.340]  Amazing.
[19:19.840 --> 19:25.980]  Um, well, I imagine that's, uh, being retweeted everywhere and, uh, you know, you could just scroll that on a wall pretty easily.
[19:26.100 --> 19:27.140]  It's not very many characters.
[19:27.900 --> 19:47.660]  Yes, but I think that the people really, uh, really misunderstand, uh, what is going on in Turkey right now, uh, that this is, uh, not necessarily about, uh, um, about drawing attention away from this scandal or silencing discussion of this one particular scandal in,
[19:47.660 --> 19:48.980]  in Turkish politics.
[19:49.360 --> 19:57.220]  And it is not a failure just because people are able to circumvent censorship or because people still know about the scandal.
[19:57.480 --> 20:16.720]  Uh, really, this is about the Erdogan government, uh, trying to, uh, reframe their relationship with social media and frame social media to their, their largely conservative base as, uh, as something that is evil that we have to protect our, our, our people against rather than as this,
[20:16.800 --> 20:19.960]  you know, sort of empowering, uh, platform for communication.
[20:20.120 --> 20:24.360]  And in that sense, you could, you could say that this ban has actually been somewhat successful.
[20:24.720 --> 20:27.760]  Now, what, what is, uh, EFF's role in all of this?
[20:28.780 --> 20:30.440]  Oh, well, we've done a couple of things.
[20:30.660 --> 20:42.320]  We've, uh, we've definitely kept track of, of the story and we, we've written about it extensively, including providing a lot of political context and sort of trying to talk about what, uh, what the Erdogan regime is trying to do.
[20:42.760 --> 20:46.660]  Uh, and also we have, uh, provided technical advice.
[20:47.060 --> 20:57.780]  So back when, when people were able to use, uh, Google DNS, we said, Hey, you could use Google DNS, uh, when it was no longer possible to use Google DNS to circumvent, uh, censorship.
[20:58.100 --> 21:01.700]  We gave people advice on other things that they could do, uh, such as using Tor.
[21:02.260 --> 21:13.220]  So, uh, we've, we've sort of, uh, made use of, of our reputation as a, a trusted source of technical advice as well as of, uh, of political commentary and context.
[21:13.380 --> 21:17.380]  Aren't there also alternative ways of doing the same thing that Twitter does?
[21:17.460 --> 21:19.320]  Aren't there other services that people can use?
[21:20.360 --> 21:21.240]  Um, absolutely.
[21:21.600 --> 21:25.440]  Uh, there are, there are services which provide the equivalent to Twitter.
[21:25.700 --> 21:35.100]  Um, but I think that much like there are services that provide the equivalent to Facebook or the equivalent to, to YouTube, uh, people go where the people are.
[21:36.080 --> 21:42.860]  Uh, and, and so simply telling them you, you can get your word out on some other services, usually not very useful advice.
[21:43.560 --> 21:44.040]  Interesting.
[21:44.420 --> 21:47.480]  Now I imagine this is not something that's isolated to Turkey.
[21:47.640 --> 21:57.240]  In fact, I'm looking at a story right now, uh, from Saudi Arabia a couple of weeks ago, two men found guilty in Saudi courts for, uh, offensive messages they posted on Twitter.
[21:57.520 --> 22:03.380]  One, one man was sentenced to 10 years in prison for using Twitter to encourage protests, undermine the country's leadership.
[22:03.680 --> 22:11.280]  Um, the accused had sent invitations via Twitter to participate in protest and gather gatherings against the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
[22:11.620 --> 22:14.700]  Uh, now in that case, Twitter was not restricted.
[22:15.120 --> 22:18.020]  Someone used Twitter and then they were prosecuted for using Twitter.
[22:18.160 --> 22:20.540]  So this kind of thing is not really that uncommon, is it?
[22:20.920 --> 22:21.460]  No, not at all.
[22:21.480 --> 22:33.920]  You also see it in, um, in countries like the UAE, uh, where, uh, where a man was arrested for having, uh, tweeted, uh, some sort of opposition sentiment about, uh, about the king.
[22:34.460 --> 22:41.160]  Uh, this, this does in fact happen, uh, in, in many countries and, and this is a very serious problem.
[22:41.460 --> 22:43.560]  Does it happen here in, in other ways?
[22:44.760 --> 23:01.900]  Uh, well, we, we do see it in the United States when people, uh, tweet, uh, threats, uh, the same sort of, you know, uh, the same sort of speech that can get you into trouble, uh, if you were to make it in, uh, in person will get you into trouble if you,
[23:02.060 --> 23:03.980]  uh, if you tweet it to the internet.
[23:04.660 --> 23:19.780]  Um, furthermore, there was a, a gentleman in, uh, in the UK, I think it was, uh, last year, who, uh, who tweeted a joke about bombing an airport.
[23:19.980 --> 23:20.420]  Oh, yes.
[23:20.640 --> 23:21.640]  Yeah, we reported on that.
[23:21.800 --> 23:22.060]  Yes.
[23:22.220 --> 23:23.080]  And sent to court.
[23:23.740 --> 23:29.280]  So, um, certainly the, uh, governments are watching what people say on Twitter.
[23:29.480 --> 23:42.640]  We have plenty of evidence to show that the, the NSA is monitoring, uh, both what we say publicly and privately in social media, um, presumably for, um, anti-government or, uh, pro-violence sentiment.
[23:43.040 --> 23:49.220]  Uh, and there's no reason to think that this is not happening in other countries, sometimes in much more blatant ways than we see here.
[23:49.360 --> 24:00.800]  Well, we also had the case, uh, where, uh, related to WikiLeaks, uh, Jacob Applebaum and, uh, Birgitta John's daughter, uh, had their, their tweets, um, subpoenaed by the United States.
[24:00.980 --> 24:02.000]  Is that, is that what it was done?
[24:02.540 --> 24:03.540]  They tried to get the...
[24:03.540 --> 24:06.480]  Um, actually, the, uh, yes, they got the tweets, but the tweets were already public.
[24:06.600 --> 24:08.560]  I know, like, I can't understand why...
[24:08.560 --> 24:09.340]  It wasn't the tweets.
[24:09.660 --> 24:20.920]  Uh, it was, uh, their, it was, uh, their IP addresses and their, uh, geolocation at the time that they tweeted the various tweets, uh, and also their direct messages, which were not public.
[24:21.100 --> 24:21.980]  Ah, okay, yes.
[24:23.580 --> 24:24.440]  Well, uh...
[24:24.960 --> 24:26.780]  The government subpoenaed this information.
[24:27.120 --> 24:28.000]  Twitter fought them.
[24:28.500 --> 24:32.960]  Uh, EFF, uh, represented Birgitta, Birgitta John's daughter, but I think in the end we lost the case.
[24:33.640 --> 24:34.040]  Interesting.
[24:34.940 --> 24:35.340]  Wow.
[24:35.620 --> 24:38.240]  Uh, so, uh, quite a bit, uh, going on just with Twitter.
[24:38.400 --> 24:43.300]  We're just talking about Twitter in the opening minutes here, but, uh, EFF is involved in so much more.
[24:43.480 --> 24:47.060]  Is there, uh, a case you'd like to, uh, focus some attention on?
[24:47.740 --> 24:48.340]  Well, sure.
[24:48.500 --> 24:51.700]  I think that there's, uh, there's one particular case that I think, uh, deserves a little love.
[24:51.880 --> 25:02.240]  Uh, a few weeks ago, uh, EFF filed a lawsuit against, uh, the state of Ethiopia, uh, the first, uh, first, uh, first, uh, first suit of its kind.
[25:02.520 --> 25:12.360]  Uh, this was the result of our, our longstanding collaboration, uh, with Citizen Lab in the area of malware research.
[25:12.940 --> 25:24.300]  Uh, we found a gentleman who goes by the, the pseudonym of Kidani, uh, who is a member of the Ethiopian diaspora who lives in, uh, in the Washington D.C.
[25:24.520 --> 25:24.660]  area.
[25:25.060 --> 25:38.420]  And he turned out to have had his computer infected, uh, with FinSpy, which is a surveillance, um, spyware, uh, built by a European company, a company, uh, based in both the U.K.
[25:38.420 --> 25:40.360]  and in Germany called FinFisher.
[25:40.960 --> 25:51.900]  Uh, and that, uh, that surveillance malware sent information back to a command control server in Ethiopia, uh, located in Ethiopian IP space.
[25:52.060 --> 26:03.620]  So we had some, some pretty solid evidence that, uh, the Ethiopian government was spying on this, um, on this member of the diaspora who, uh, was a sort of opposition figure.
[26:04.060 --> 26:18.560]  And, uh, we have sued the Ethiopian government for violating the Wiretapping Act because we have evidence that they spied on several of his Skype conversations as well as on his, uh, Google, uh, web searches.
[26:19.060 --> 26:21.840]  And, uh, in the United States under U.S.
[26:21.920 --> 26:23.880]  law, uh, that is illegal.
[26:24.380 --> 26:28.320]  So, uh, we're, we're gonna go and try to hold them responsible.
[26:29.020 --> 26:29.440]  Interesting.
[26:29.560 --> 26:36.180]  I, I noticed that, uh, EFF is getting involved in a lot of global cases lately, uh, not just things that are confined to our own borders.
[26:36.360 --> 26:38.900]  Is that, is that something new or something you've always pretty much been involved in?
[26:38.900 --> 26:57.460]  Not something that we have always been involved in, but, uh, our, our international team has definitely, uh, expanded over the years, uh, from sort of, uh, just one, uh, intrepid Cory Doctorow, you know, sitting in a room in, somewhere in Canada, uh, to a,
[26:57.660 --> 26:59.840]  a reasonably sized team.
[27:00.120 --> 27:06.120]  But also the Internet is, uh, is much more global than it was a few years ago.
[27:06.720 --> 27:13.200]  Uh, Internet use in the rest of the world has gone up and, uh, surveillance has sort of come up with it.
[27:13.300 --> 27:21.420]  Um, mostly as, uh, surveillance tools become, uh, more and more trivially, uh, cheap for governments to purchase.
[27:21.620 --> 27:28.200]  Uh, they become more tempted to use them to, uh, to spy on journalists and activists and to commit human rights abuses.
[27:28.620 --> 27:33.120]  Is there something you can point to inside our country that we should be following?
[27:33.380 --> 27:37.840]  Uh, or we only have, we only have, uh, an hour, but, um, I don't know.
[27:37.960 --> 27:40.480]  So, uh, what do you think is one of the most important cases?
[27:41.480 --> 27:43.580]  Uh, well, uh, a couple of different things.
[27:43.720 --> 27:48.040]  I mean, I would definitely recommend following, uh, Weave's, uh, CFAA appeal.
[27:48.280 --> 27:48.460]  Yeah.
[27:48.480 --> 27:51.060]  In fact, Bernie, Bernie, you were there last week at that case, were you not?
[27:51.260 --> 27:52.620]  Yeah, I was just talking with Eva about that.
[27:52.640 --> 27:53.520]  I was there last week.
[27:53.680 --> 27:56.040]  Uh, there were several EFF attorneys and friends there.
[27:56.260 --> 27:59.400]  Probably about 50 or 60 people showed up, uh, from the hacker community.
[27:59.800 --> 28:01.340]  And, uh, it was really interesting.
[28:01.560 --> 28:18.660]  Uh, unfortunately, only, nearly the Third Circuit panel only really wanted to hear about, uh, a venue, uh, arguments, not about, uh, the specific statutory language of the, uh, CFAA, which, uh, people are arguing is unconstitutionally vague.
[28:18.940 --> 28:21.480]  But, um, the venue issues are really important, too.
[28:21.580 --> 28:30.500]  You don't want an overzealous prosecutor to be able to reach into another jurisdiction to say, hey, you violated community standards here or whatever, at least at the state or local level.
[28:30.620 --> 28:31.040]  Absolutely.
[28:31.040 --> 28:35.700]  The venue argument is basically what we can do right now.
[28:35.700 --> 28:44.560]  But as far as the case itself, there are really some important issues that were brought about by the fact that this guy's in prison now and really never should have been sent there.
[28:44.660 --> 28:45.600]  Is that correct, Eva?
[28:46.560 --> 28:47.040]  Absolutely.
[28:47.500 --> 29:04.900]  Um, I, I think that no matter how you feel about Weave, uh, anybody who has ever, uh, I don't know, uh, anybody who has ever gone to a URL that was not being generally linked to on the internet, uh, or who has, you know, gotten to other accounts through incrementing any,
[29:05.060 --> 29:13.600]  a URL, um, has a great deal of interest in making sure that this is not a CFAA violation that will land them three and a half years in jail.
[29:14.440 --> 29:14.840]  Interesting.
[29:15.140 --> 29:19.000]  I think there's a key phrase in this, it's all, and it's, it's the term unauthorized access.
[29:19.400 --> 29:20.480]  And what does that mean?
[29:20.600 --> 29:23.820]  Who gets to, who gets to decide what is unauthorized?
[29:23.960 --> 29:26.000]  Can the, can the federal government decide what's on?
[29:27.020 --> 29:41.620]  Can the, I mean, there's too many, there's too many cooks in the, in the kitchen here as far as to decide what constitutes unauthorized access and without really defining it specifically, Basically, it puts everybody at risk on the Internet for doing something that may be unauthorized,
[29:41.700 --> 29:43.100]  but not known to them.
[29:43.700 --> 29:48.120]  I'm certainly not in favor of leaving the interpretation up to Apple.
[29:49.000 --> 29:49.520]  Exactly.
[29:49.820 --> 29:51.580]  Yeah, yeah, or any of those powerful entities.
[29:52.240 --> 30:02.200]  Eva, can you point to some legislation maybe that's being drawn up now that is going to pose a threat to us a couple of years down the road or a couple of months down the road?
[30:02.200 --> 30:09.820]  Well, I can actually point to some potentially good legislation, which may be coming down the road.
[30:09.920 --> 30:10.960]  Whoa, that's a first.
[30:11.500 --> 30:32.300]  There is actually some discussion in the Obama administration right now of ending the mass collection of metadata of phone records of the sort that is the basis of our lawsuit against the NSA, especially in the Verizon case.
[30:32.900 --> 30:34.980]  So on one hand, our case might fall apart.
[30:35.100 --> 30:36.160]  On the other hand, we win.
[30:36.880 --> 30:39.380]  So I'm extremely excited about that.
[30:39.480 --> 30:44.240]  That is a level of reform we were not sure that we would ever get to.
[30:44.420 --> 30:48.820]  And certainly the discussions are not over.
[30:49.160 --> 30:56.200]  But the fact that this is even on the table right now and that people in Washington are seriously considering it is, I think, very good news.
[30:56.200 --> 31:00.740]  Was that not simply transferring it from the government to the companies?
[31:00.740 --> 31:04.140]  They would still keep this information, but it wouldn't be the government doing it?
[31:04.680 --> 31:06.060]  Is that what Obama is proposing?
[31:07.760 --> 31:09.420]  That is one version of the proposal.
[31:09.700 --> 31:09.920]  Okay.
[31:10.040 --> 31:13.660]  I think that there's definitely a lot of work left to be done.
[31:13.840 --> 31:25.600]  But considering we could not even get them this far as recently as a year ago, I think that this is a sign that the Snowden revelations have really changed the conversation in American politics.
[31:25.600 --> 31:27.860]  Now, you guys have gone and sued the NSA.
[31:28.120 --> 31:29.160]  What is that like?
[31:30.640 --> 31:33.380]  Well, it's just like suing any other government entity.
[31:34.740 --> 31:35.760]  What's that like then?
[31:35.760 --> 31:37.860]  Because we don't really have much experience with that.
[31:38.080 --> 31:40.780]  They sue us sometimes, but the other way around.
[31:41.700 --> 31:59.220]  Well, I think it's very important to have a sort of public advocacy organization that is willing to speak truth to power and that's willing to sue the government or the NSA or the attorney general when the government misbehaves.
[31:59.480 --> 32:02.260]  And that's our job.
[32:02.600 --> 32:05.900]  But when you sue a secret agency like the NSA, who shows up?
[32:07.760 --> 32:08.700]  Lawyers for the NSA.
[32:09.540 --> 32:17.480]  We have sued the entire government, so representatives of various parts of the government show up.
[32:17.600 --> 32:19.440]  But the NSA does, in fact, have lawyers.
[32:19.600 --> 32:22.140]  Are they forthcoming as far as answering questions?
[32:22.140 --> 32:24.480]  Do they hide behind national security a lot?
[32:25.140 --> 32:27.700]  Oh, absolutely they hide behind national security a lot.
[32:27.700 --> 32:49.600]  And when we sued AT&T over their involvement in the warrantless wiretapping, one of the arguments that AT&T and, in fact, the state made was that we did not have standing to sue because we could not prove that there was a program because it was a state secret.
[32:50.200 --> 32:54.800]  To which we said, state secret, here it is, like, on the cover of national newspaper.
[32:55.520 --> 32:55.940]  Wow.
[32:56.340 --> 32:57.920]  What kind of state secret is this?
[32:58.060 --> 33:00.040]  And we did, in fact, still lose on standing.
[33:00.220 --> 33:04.360]  We filed another lawsuit, which was against the government itself rather than against AT&T.
[33:06.620 --> 33:15.820]  But the telcos were actually so scared that we might get somewhere with this lawsuit that they actually went to Washington, D.C.
[33:15.860 --> 33:34.200]  with their lobbyists and they got a law passed, an amendment to FISA, which essentially granted them retroactive immunity for their cooperation in the warrantless wiretapping, which they, of course, said they weren't doing and they weren't cooperating in.
[33:34.200 --> 33:35.000]  But just in case.
[33:35.440 --> 33:36.880]  Bernie, did you have some questions for Eva?
[33:37.080 --> 33:41.240]  I just said the whole concept of retroactive immunity is just mind-boggling.
[33:41.860 --> 33:42.660]  Oh, absolutely.
[33:43.220 --> 33:54.320]  Gross abuses of the law en masse can just be, with a broad stroke, just erased and said, well, anything you've ever done wrong before.
[33:54.320 --> 33:55.320]  It's not like pardoning.
[33:56.920 --> 33:59.060]  It's not like, okay, you can't do this anymore.
[33:59.060 --> 34:02.460]  It's like you're absolved for anything you've ever done before.
[34:03.260 --> 34:04.940]  It's just, like, so Orwellian.
[34:06.120 --> 34:06.920]  Oh, absolutely.
[34:07.120 --> 34:08.900]  How do people get deals like that?
[34:09.040 --> 34:11.840]  You know, retroactive immunity, that would come in handy for a lot of things.
[34:13.080 --> 34:18.200]  Well, I think you need to be a multi-billion dollar company with a lot of money to throw around.
[34:18.520 --> 34:18.800]  Okay.
[34:19.780 --> 34:20.620]  All right, all right.
[34:20.880 --> 34:23.320]  If we could just arrange that, I think we'd all be set.
[34:23.540 --> 34:25.120]  All right, putting that on my to-do list.
[34:25.360 --> 34:25.580]  I have a question for you.
[34:25.980 --> 34:26.600]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[34:26.600 --> 34:40.700]  I just want to ask, why do you think the Obama administration is backpedaling on this 215 collection program of so-called metadata of all Americans' telephone calls?
[34:40.800 --> 34:42.960]  I mean, why should they care?
[34:43.540 --> 34:48.480]  What's the worst that could happen if they did nothing?
[34:48.480 --> 35:00.060]  Or do they think that there could be some serious, some, like, actual criminal charges or accountability against government officials for doing this?
[35:00.200 --> 35:01.400]  Or why would they care?
[35:02.380 --> 35:05.000]  Well, until very recently, they haven't.
[35:05.280 --> 35:11.280]  And, in fact, they have defended this program as absolutely necessary for national security.
[35:11.280 --> 35:24.040]  They have claimed that it has actually stopped, I think it was, what, 44 potential terrorist plots, nearly all of which have been disproven.
[35:24.920 --> 35:30.700]  I think that for a very long time, they have stood their ground on this policy.
[35:30.700 --> 35:58.020]  But nine months to almost a year of revelation after revelation after revelation showing NSA abuses and showing that most of the checks and balances which were originally put in place to make sure that civil liberties were respected have essentially been co-opted and are just rubber stamps.
[35:58.580 --> 36:01.820]  Finally, the Obama administration had to move on to that.
[36:03.540 --> 36:06.800]  Eva, I was really curious to hear your optimism about this.
[36:06.960 --> 36:10.220]  We were discussing it briefly before we managed to make the telephones work.
[36:10.220 --> 36:12.460]  And I was kind of skeptical.
[36:12.460 --> 36:16.900]  I thought this would be sort of window dressing, legalizing what they're already doing.
[36:17.020 --> 36:22.840]  But you think there's a chance for some actual reduction in the scope of the spying through some of this legislation?
[36:24.080 --> 36:25.640]  I think that we may get some.
[36:26.380 --> 36:32.080]  You know, if I were a pessimist, I would have great difficulty getting up in the morning and going to work.
[36:33.040 --> 36:36.240]  On one hand, I have to expect the worst, but I still hope for the best.
[36:36.940 --> 36:43.000]  And I acknowledge that the conversation has really changed so much in the last year.
[36:43.680 --> 36:48.640]  The Obama administration would not have even proposed window dressing as recently as a year ago.
[36:48.640 --> 36:51.580]  And I think that that is a good place to start.
[36:51.820 --> 37:10.960]  We so rarely see wins in the sort of fight against the expanding scope of government surveillance that I think it's really important to hold on to any indication that we have from the government that they may pull back even a little bit.
[37:10.960 --> 37:18.260]  How much of that change in overall attitude do you attribute to Edward Snowden and his revelations?
[37:19.680 --> 37:43.020]  I think a lot of it is the result of the Snowden revelations and just story after story after story about NSA abuses and about the scope of the NSA's surveillance and their surveillance of Americans and cooperation with GCHQ and other agencies in the Five Eyes,
[37:43.020 --> 37:52.060]  it means that if you open up a newspaper or a major national newspaper, there is a very good chance you will see some NSA story in the news.
[37:52.320 --> 37:55.460]  And I think that really does make a difference.
[37:55.720 --> 37:57.440]  It eventually wears them down.
[37:57.460 --> 38:00.860]  Even if it's just a little bit, it absolutely helps.
[38:00.860 --> 38:06.140]  Well, it's amazing to think that the Snowden revelations didn't even begin until less than a year ago.
[38:06.700 --> 38:08.740]  And look at how much has changed.
[38:08.880 --> 38:12.580]  Imagine all the information that's been released in this last year.
[38:12.760 --> 38:16.500]  Imagine us not knowing any of it, because that's where we would be without Edward Snowden.
[38:17.040 --> 38:19.300]  And where would we be going?
[38:19.460 --> 38:24.160]  What assumptions would we be making about the status of surveillance today?
[38:24.160 --> 38:26.200]  We would be completely ignorant about it.
[38:26.320 --> 38:27.440]  And instead, we're informed.
[38:27.640 --> 38:29.380]  Instead, we're fighting the things we should be fighting.
[38:29.380 --> 38:34.220]  It's testament to the power of one individual to make changes.
[38:34.860 --> 38:38.700]  I think that a lot of credit does go to Edward Snowden.
[38:38.900 --> 38:47.580]  But in the interest of shedding some light on EFF's work, we've been doing this for a really long time.
[38:47.580 --> 38:57.760]  Our first lawsuit against the AT&T for this program goes back to 2006.
[38:58.220 --> 39:09.380]  And we owe a lot to whistleblowers like Mark Klein, sort of the original AT&T whistleblower, who I think also shed a lot of light on this situation.
[39:09.380 --> 39:19.640]  I think the primary difference between, you know, sort of the pre-Snowden and the post-Snowden era is that before Snowden, we suspected a lot of these things were going on.
[39:19.740 --> 39:28.320]  We thought we had a lot of evidence, but a lot of it was just, and these kind of abuses could be happening.
[39:28.320 --> 39:31.780]  And we're really worried, and what we see is just the tip of the iceberg.
[39:31.920 --> 39:35.220]  But we had very little definitive proof.
[39:35.940 --> 39:42.820]  And post-Snowden, there's just piles and piles and piles of proof out there.
[39:42.820 --> 39:57.960]  And I think that the main thing that that's done is it has moved EFF's position on surveillance from this sort of fringe, tinfoil hat position, just, you know, oh, you're just imagining the worst, really, they must be protecting our liberties somewhere,
[39:58.220 --> 40:03.220]  to a very central, popular and mainstream position.
[40:03.560 --> 40:07.280]  And we did not change our position at all, but the whole world moved.
[40:08.620 --> 40:09.020]  Interesting.
[40:09.400 --> 40:13.320]  Well, you know, Eva, you have to figure that listening to us, right... Is that the hotline?
[40:13.460 --> 40:15.560]  Is there a crisis going on somewhere?
[40:16.560 --> 40:16.960]  No?
[40:17.060 --> 40:17.200]  Okay.
[40:17.500 --> 40:18.420]  That's on my end, sorry.
[40:18.460 --> 40:19.120]  Oh, that's your end, Bernie.
[40:19.180 --> 40:19.340]  Okay.
[40:20.500 --> 40:33.820]  You have to figure there are potential whistleblowers listening to us right now, either live or on the archive, people who are in positions where they can reveal information that could prove incredibly helpful to people who are fighting for these things.
[40:33.820 --> 40:41.580]  Eva, what would you say to somebody like that, who would be concerned about what might happen to them, if they reveal information like this?
[40:42.300 --> 40:45.660]  Well, there are a couple of recommendations that I would make.
[40:46.200 --> 40:58.340]  One is to familiarize yourself very well with whistleblower protections, especially since there are not really a lot of protections for people who want to blow the whistle on government malfeasance.
[40:58.340 --> 41:11.660]  I would also recommend that they take technical steps to protect themselves rather than counting on journalists or media organizations to do it for them.
[41:12.220 --> 41:24.200]  Use Tor, use PGP, be extremely careful and familiarize yourself with the encryption and anonymity tools before you move forward.
[41:24.200 --> 41:26.080]  Don't count on other people to protect you.
[41:26.300 --> 41:28.360]  You can really take these steps yourself.
[41:28.640 --> 41:35.460]  You know, we were talking about how, where we would be today without the revelations that we've learned in the last year.
[41:35.640 --> 41:41.320]  But I'm also wondering, where would we be now if the Electronic Frontier Foundation was not there?
[41:41.980 --> 41:43.300]  It's scary to think.
[41:43.440 --> 41:48.880]  All the things, all the battles you've been involved in over the years, how crucial your voice was.
[41:49.160 --> 41:55.940]  And without that, we probably would not be anywhere near where we are now as far as the rights that we still do have.
[41:57.040 --> 41:59.260]  Well, EFF has been around for a long time.
[41:59.580 --> 42:04.560]  EFF has been around since approximately 1990, which I guess is sort of around the beginning of the web.
[42:05.580 --> 42:10.780]  And I would like to think that we've really shaped the way in which things have developed.
[42:11.120 --> 42:24.660]  But one of the really cool things that has happened in recent years, as the Internet has become more global, as more and more people are on it, and as these issues become more important, is that so many other organizations have stepped up to the plate.
[42:25.140 --> 42:28.800]  I owe a lot to my continuing collaboration with Citizen Lab.
[42:29.260 --> 42:33.300]  The ACLU does a lot of very important legal work in this area.
[42:33.300 --> 42:44.040]  There are organizations like Access and Privacy International in the UK that are also doing this kind of digital rights work.
[42:44.160 --> 42:47.320]  And I'm very glad to be in good company.
[42:48.100 --> 43:00.580]  And just thinking of the conversation that's happening now, that we have this information from people like Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning, and all these other whistleblowers who have brought out information into the public that needs to be known for us,
[43:00.680 --> 43:08.380]  the public, to make decisions when we're having this conversation, when we're given the opportunity to have this conversation and inform our government how we feel about it.
[43:09.160 --> 43:13.820]  And yet, we're looking at Edward Snowden's trapped in Russia, Chelsea Manning is in military prison.
[43:14.480 --> 43:35.020]  What can be done as far as protecting people, not only for whistleblowers to protect themselves with things like the whistleblower protections available on the technical level, like Tor and things like that, but what can be done to sort of affect better protections for whistleblowers in the law,
[43:35.080 --> 43:35.720]  in the public sphere?
[43:36.600 --> 43:42.480]  Well, certainly, I would love to see greater whistleblower protections at the federal level.
[43:43.060 --> 43:49.720]  I would also like to see a federal anti-slap law, the strategic lawsuits against public participation.
[43:50.180 --> 43:55.840]  I think that these are both excellent ideas and things that EFF has been pushing for for many years.
[43:56.200 --> 44:04.180]  But since this is a largely technical audience listening out there, your best defense is crypto.
[44:05.900 --> 44:06.220]  Absolutely.
[44:07.380 --> 44:16.120]  Eva Galper, we've been talking with you for the last few minutes about various things going on in the world, surveillance, what the EFF has been up to.
[44:16.200 --> 44:17.860]  You're the Global Policy Analyst.
[44:18.180 --> 44:19.240]  That's your title over there, right?
[44:19.720 --> 44:20.200]  Yes, it is.
[44:20.360 --> 44:20.620]  Wow.
[44:20.980 --> 44:21.720]  It's pretty cool.
[44:22.160 --> 44:25.640]  And you don't have to wait, by the way, to donate to the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[44:25.640 --> 44:27.220]  You don't have to wait until April to buy a Hope ticket.
[44:27.220 --> 44:30.940]  You can donate right now by going to EFF.org.
[44:30.940 --> 44:35.120]  And there's all kinds of things to read there and a way to contribute.
[44:35.460 --> 44:39.380]  Is there anything else that, Eva, you'd like to give out as far as contact information?
[44:40.920 --> 44:42.200]  No, I think that's about it.
[44:42.360 --> 44:45.640]  Just go to www.eff.org.
[44:45.640 --> 44:48.700]  And if you would like to donate, go to slash support.
[44:49.260 --> 44:53.600]  And you guys are going to have quite a presence at the HopeX Conference here in New York in July.
[44:53.880 --> 44:57.340]  I know there's a number of talks that you guys are going to be giving.
[44:58.140 --> 45:03.580]  There's going to be at least one table where you can get all kinds of information and get involved yourself.
[45:04.660 --> 45:10.120]  Anything you can say to encourage people to get involved, not only in this conference, but in other similar conferences around the world?
[45:11.000 --> 45:14.200]  Well, I will be at Hope this year.
[45:14.460 --> 45:17.340]  And in the summer, I will be on the Ask EFF panel.
[45:17.640 --> 45:22.900]  So if people have questions, I am happy to answer them.
[45:23.000 --> 45:26.000]  They can contact me directly at eva.eff.org.
[45:26.000 --> 45:28.220]  That's E-V-A at E-F-F dot org.
[45:28.420 --> 45:31.080]  So if you can remember who I am, you can remember how to get in touch with me.
[45:31.960 --> 45:38.380]  We will also be at DEF CON and Black Hat this year, as we are every year.
[45:39.380 --> 45:41.380]  And E-F-F staff has expanded a bit.
[45:41.460 --> 45:47.040]  So I think you'll be seeing us at a sort of greater variety of conferences in the near future, which I'm definitely looking forward to.
[45:47.520 --> 45:49.500]  Well, thanks for everything you guys have done.
[45:49.520 --> 45:54.880]  And let's just hope that you're around for a very, very long time to keep doing these things, because we're going to need you.
[45:55.040 --> 45:58.900]  And people in other countries are going to need similar organizations as well.
[45:59.680 --> 46:06.900]  And this is one of the more positive things that we can talk about, is how much you guys have accomplished and how much you've taken on.
[46:06.900 --> 46:08.160]  So thanks for that.
[46:08.160 --> 46:10.320]  And we look forward to seeing you in July.
[46:11.340 --> 46:12.140]  It's my pleasure.
[46:12.300 --> 46:13.200]  I look forward to seeing you, too.
[46:13.540 --> 46:13.800]  All right.
[46:13.900 --> 46:14.200]  Take care.
[46:14.900 --> 46:17.200]  Eva Galpern from the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[46:17.480 --> 46:24.720]  And again, this reminder, we will be donating 10% of all Hope ticket sales for the month of April to the E-F-F.
[46:25.920 --> 46:38.480]  And that means if you buy a ticket to our conference, taking place July 18th, 19th, and 20th at the Hotel Pennsylvania here in New York City, 10% of that cost, that 10% of the price that you pay will go directly to the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[46:38.480 --> 46:46.300]  So you can get a ticket to the event of the year, as far as the hacker world and civil liberties and all kinds of controversial topics.
[46:46.300 --> 46:50.380]  And you can also help an organization which has done so much for us.
[46:50.840 --> 46:57.220]  Now, Bernie, since that works so well, we were talking through your BlackBerry just now, as opposed to talking through the BAI phone system.
[46:57.580 --> 47:00.960]  Do you think you can contact our next guest if you have not already done so?
[47:02.560 --> 47:07.540]  I think I'm going to have to call back and then bring him in, because I can't let go of Eva's call.
[47:07.740 --> 47:10.260]  It's hanging up on my phone.
[47:10.260 --> 47:11.500]  You know, it's amazing.
[47:11.740 --> 47:12.680]  Okay, you go ahead and do that.
[47:12.840 --> 47:19.160]  It's amazing that in this day and age, we still have trouble disconnecting phone calls that are three-wayed on cell phones.
[47:19.360 --> 47:24.200]  And, you know, if you ask somebody, nine times out of ten, they will not know how to make a three-wayed call on their cell phone.
[47:24.300 --> 47:24.940]  They really won't.
[47:25.740 --> 47:26.820]  It's pretty incredible.
[47:26.900 --> 47:27.220]  That's okay.
[47:27.220 --> 47:35.440]  We can easily fill the time in other ways by talking about other things that are coming up, right?
[47:36.800 --> 47:37.680]  We certainly can.
[47:37.680 --> 47:38.020]  All right.
[47:38.960 --> 47:39.820]  Oh, actually, you know what?
[47:39.860 --> 47:40.760]  Bernie's already calling back.
[47:40.860 --> 47:42.720]  So, well, if you can kill maybe ten seconds.
[47:43.240 --> 47:44.080]  I'll try my best.
[47:44.440 --> 47:47.820]  Yeah, for those who would like another way to support the EFF, I found this out recently.
[47:47.820 --> 47:56.400]  If you sell things on eBay, one of the selections you can make to automatically support a charity with the money from your sale is the EFF.
[47:56.580 --> 47:57.380]  So, I've started doing that.
[47:57.420 --> 47:58.120]  Are you still talking?
[47:58.320 --> 47:59.460]  Wow, we're already finished here.
[47:59.580 --> 48:01.080]  All right, well, continue to finish what you said.
[48:01.260 --> 48:02.180]  Got all the information on?
[48:02.180 --> 48:03.340]  Okay, good.
[48:03.860 --> 48:16.940]  Well, joining us right now through Bernie's BlackBerry is somebody who's running another conference taking place this next month, actually, early next month.
[48:17.180 --> 48:19.360]  Evan Koblenz, are you with us?
[48:19.820 --> 48:20.280]  Hello, Evan.
[48:20.280 --> 48:21.420]  Yes, this is Evan.
[48:21.420 --> 48:28.580]  Okay, Evan, you are one of the people behind one of our favorite events, one I really would like to make to someday.
[48:29.720 --> 48:33.340]  That's the Vintage Computer Festival happening down in New Jersey.
[48:33.440 --> 48:33.740]  Is that right?
[48:34.500 --> 48:35.420]  Yes, sir, that's us.
[48:35.600 --> 48:36.740]  Now, when is this one happening?
[48:37.800 --> 48:39.940]  This year we're doing a three-day show for the first time.
[48:40.000 --> 48:43.440]  It's April 4, 5, and 6, which is a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
[48:44.380 --> 48:46.620]  Wow, okay, so you guys are getting bigger.
[48:47.840 --> 48:54.840]  Well, we always had a two-day show with lectures in the morning and exhibits in the afternoon, and a few people were bugging us for a third day.
[48:55.000 --> 48:57.000]  We said, if we're going to do a third day, let's do something different.
[48:57.480 --> 49:04.420]  So what we came up with for Friday, April 4th, was VC at East University, which is a separate admission, and the whole day is nothing but technical classes.
[49:05.020 --> 49:07.840]  Everything from how to program an assembly to how to use an oscilloscope.
[49:09.560 --> 49:10.840]  Wow, yeah, I'm looking at the schedule.
[49:11.100 --> 49:12.940]  It's really interesting stuff here.
[49:14.120 --> 49:15.320]  Bootsstrapping CPM.
[49:16.260 --> 49:19.560]  When's the last time anyone could take a course on CPM?
[49:20.620 --> 49:22.420]  I had probably 30 years.
[49:23.540 --> 49:24.140]  Wow.
[49:25.000 --> 49:26.420]  So tell us more.
[49:26.540 --> 49:27.420]  What else is being offered?
[49:28.240 --> 49:35.300]  Well, this year we have 37 exhibits, 12 technical workshops, 6 lectures, and 1 film debut.
[49:36.080 --> 49:38.780]  We're giving away a brand-new oscilloscope on Friday.
[49:38.980 --> 49:40.120]  That should be a big attraction.
[49:41.220 --> 49:44.980]  The exhibit hall itself has some really neat, hacker-friendly things this year.
[49:45.300 --> 49:52.140]  For example, if anyone remembers the classic Commodore 64 game called Artillery Duel, which is basically a battleship.
[49:52.320 --> 49:54.980]  One person shoots, the next person shoots, back and forth.
[49:55.380 --> 49:57.960]  It's fun for a while, but eventually the novelty wears off.
[49:58.320 --> 50:03.820]  The two of our members reprogrammed it so it's an eight-player game, and everyone can shoot at the same time.
[50:04.040 --> 50:04.700]  Oh, wow.
[50:04.700 --> 50:08.300]  And they're going to be debuting that on our show and then open-sourcing it after the show.
[50:09.200 --> 50:10.260]  So will this be running, Evan?
[50:10.440 --> 50:12.000]  Evan, what will this be running on?
[50:12.740 --> 50:16.980]  Running on eight Commodore 64s using custom hardware to network them.
[50:17.360 --> 50:18.260]  That is awesome.
[50:18.420 --> 50:23.840]  So there are eight Commodore 64s being networked together with each player on each one.
[50:24.540 --> 50:25.020]  Exactly.
[50:25.040 --> 50:26.820]  And you could all shoot at the same time.
[50:27.340 --> 50:33.680]  And it's done through a custom hardware hack somebody made to do an Ethernet adapter for a C64 from 1982.
[50:33.680 --> 50:36.640]  Evan, how do you get the equipment to do this?
[50:36.780 --> 50:39.140]  Do people just save all this and then bring it together?
[50:40.980 --> 50:44.680]  Our hobby is, you know, very analogous to antique car collecting, right?
[50:44.680 --> 50:46.480]  We're not saying they're better than modern cars.
[50:46.760 --> 50:53.100]  No one would argue a 57 Chevy is a better automobile than a 2005 Chevy, but it had chrome and white walls and fins.
[50:53.780 --> 51:03.900]  So people in our hobby save, rescue, steal, beg, borrow computers from the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s and restore them and show them off just for fun.
[51:04.120 --> 51:04.980]  From the 50s?
[51:05.060 --> 51:06.100]  What do you have from the 50s?
[51:06.760 --> 51:14.820]  Believe it or not, in our museum just last month, we acquired a 1956 vacuum tube computer from Bendix called the G15.
[51:15.540 --> 51:16.200]  Oh, wow.
[51:16.360 --> 51:18.280]  That's worth going down there just to see that.
[51:18.420 --> 51:19.500]  How do you power that?
[51:21.100 --> 51:23.740]  It would take several 30-amp sockets.
[51:23.880 --> 51:26.620]  Right now, we don't have enough electricity in our facility to possibly run.
[51:27.840 --> 51:28.240]  Wow.
[51:28.440 --> 51:28.700]  Okay.
[51:28.840 --> 51:29.520]  That's something.
[51:29.560 --> 51:31.560]  That's a project to achieve.
[51:32.420 --> 51:33.080]  Hey, Evan.
[51:33.560 --> 51:34.280]  Go ahead, Barney.
[51:35.820 --> 51:43.720]  One of the amazing exhibits at this year's Vintage Computer Festival East is a VAX cluster.
[51:44.000 --> 51:45.360]  Can you explain what that is?
[51:45.440 --> 51:47.600]  I mean, I know what it is, but maybe our listeners would like to hear.
[51:47.640 --> 51:49.160]  I hacked into one of those ones, so yeah.
[51:49.820 --> 51:52.620]  There's actually two different people each bringing a VAX cluster.
[51:53.600 --> 51:55.440]  VAX, the plural was a VAXon.
[51:56.320 --> 51:57.680]  It was DEC.
[51:57.800 --> 52:01.840]  There's a DEC mini-computers, most popular line in the 70s.
[52:02.380 --> 52:05.440]  And DEC, of course, is involved by Compact, which is involved by Hewlett-Packard.
[52:05.960 --> 52:09.820]  That basically, well, I hate to say invented, but more or less invented the SAN.
[52:10.580 --> 52:13.280]  So a VAX cluster is what you best know as a SAN today.
[52:13.660 --> 52:16.060]  And someone's going to be running that original software.
[52:16.220 --> 52:22.580]  So you'll have, you know, maybe up to a dozen or so independent VAXon all networked together running what became a SAN.
[52:24.160 --> 52:31.820]  Evan, do you think people in the future, say, 30 years down the road, will be proudly displaying today's computers?
[52:33.260 --> 52:34.560]  Well, it's happening already.
[52:35.560 --> 52:36.600]  I'm only 39.
[52:36.600 --> 52:38.520]  I got into the hobby of that nine years ago.
[52:38.700 --> 52:41.200]  You know, I grew up on Apples and Converse and Ataris.
[52:42.400 --> 52:49.760]  And we're already seeing younger guys in college in their 20s talking about 386s as, you know, hey, retro, man.
[52:49.760 --> 52:53.080]  And we kind of put our noses up at those kids, but we know they are the future.
[52:53.320 --> 52:53.820]  Uh-huh.
[52:53.980 --> 52:55.380]  But I mean the things we're using today.
[52:55.600 --> 53:01.460]  It just, it seems like whatever you're using in the present doesn't have the same romance as something from the past.
[53:01.460 --> 53:09.520]  I'm just wondering if I'm just not seeing the bigger picture and that 30 years from now people are going to be all thrilled about, you know, their latest Mac or whatever.
[53:09.520 --> 53:12.260]  It just seems to me like it's all over the place now.
[53:12.260 --> 53:14.660]  Now everybody's got one of these things, you know, as far as...
[53:14.660 --> 53:16.600]  Yeah, that takes away a certain attraction.
[53:17.000 --> 53:32.540]  I do think, however, in 30 years, if somebody has the very first iPod or the first smartphone or something along those lines, it certainly, you know, or those, you know, the first smartphone was 1992 by IBM and Dell South and already is a collectible.
[53:32.800 --> 53:33.240]  Okay.
[53:33.660 --> 53:34.080]  The Simon.
[53:34.680 --> 53:36.180]  The Simon, that's exactly right.
[53:36.180 --> 53:39.200]  A few other exhibits I'd like to point out are definitely hacker-friendly.
[53:39.980 --> 53:43.980]  You know, we encourage people to do the real thing, the original thing, whatever possible at our show.
[53:44.340 --> 53:50.000]  But one of our members got a hold of an IBM System 370 front panel, but not connected to the computer.
[53:50.380 --> 53:55.320]  So he emulated the computer for Raspberry Pi, and he's going to use that to control the front panel at our show.
[53:55.580 --> 53:56.300]  Oh, wow.
[53:57.040 --> 54:00.220]  We always have a wide assortment of Apple I replicas.
[54:00.760 --> 54:03.060]  Somebody's bringing a real Apple I for the first time this year.
[54:03.060 --> 54:08.800]  If anyone remembers Franklin, Franklin was one of the many Apple II clone companies soon to oblivion by Apple.
[54:09.760 --> 54:16.300]  One of the original Franklin engineers is bringing with him to our show several original prototypes that were never released.
[54:16.480 --> 54:23.520]  And they're actually donating to our museum, which is at the facility where the show is, the original lawsuit filed against him by Apple.
[54:23.680 --> 54:24.100]  Oh, wow.
[54:24.760 --> 54:26.560]  Well, that'll bring back some memories, won't it?
[54:26.700 --> 54:30.660]  I see on Saturday there's a presentation, the inside story of Franklin Computer Corporation.
[54:31.280 --> 54:34.740]  Right, that's being given by the president and founder of Apple, of Franklin.
[54:35.460 --> 54:35.900]  Amazing.
[54:36.260 --> 54:39.720]  And there's Viva Amiga, Commodore Port 3, Amiga till the end.
[54:39.800 --> 54:40.880]  A couple of Amiga talks here.
[54:41.120 --> 54:42.460]  Whatever happened to the Amiga?
[54:42.600 --> 54:44.960]  I have fond memories of that system.
[54:45.220 --> 54:51.060]  Well, there's still something you can buy today that's basically an open source or, you know, evolution of Amiga.
[54:51.060 --> 54:51.880]  It's still out there.
[54:53.140 --> 54:55.600]  And Amiga's actually got a cult-flowing Europe.
[54:56.860 --> 55:01.500]  But just like the rest of the world, it was a two-horse race between Windows and Macintosh after a while.
[55:02.300 --> 55:05.360]  We also have a classic Mac repair course.
[55:05.500 --> 55:06.520]  I think it's Sunday.
[55:06.640 --> 55:07.420]  I forget which exactly.
[55:08.300 --> 55:10.640]  Jason Scott, he's with the Internet Archive.
[55:10.780 --> 55:11.120]  Oh, yes.
[55:11.240 --> 55:12.060]  We know Jason.
[55:12.380 --> 55:12.520]  He's giving a lecture.
[55:12.780 --> 55:13.080]  Uh-huh.
[55:13.380 --> 55:13.640]  Great.
[55:13.820 --> 55:15.100]  He's giving a lecture on our show.
[55:16.120 --> 55:19.780]  And there's going to be all sorts of technical repair workshops.
[55:20.100 --> 55:25.220]  Someone's giving a talk called How to Fix Your Hopelessly Broken Vintage Computer.
[55:25.660 --> 55:26.140]  Awesome.
[55:26.360 --> 55:26.840]  Wow.
[55:27.540 --> 55:28.700]  Now, how does...
[55:28.700 --> 55:33.540]  If somebody has something really old that they don't know what to do with, do you guys accept donations of old equipment?
[55:34.380 --> 55:37.920]  We do, but you can't just drop stuff off because we have enough junk of our own already.
[55:38.460 --> 55:40.800]  We have about a 7,000-square-foot warehouse.
[55:41.180 --> 55:42.340]  Everything from...
[55:42.340 --> 55:44.540]  We actually have some 1940s equipment.
[55:44.540 --> 55:50.340]  We have an IBM 1948 punch card loader all the way up to 80s.
[55:50.380 --> 55:51.360]  So we do accept donations.
[55:52.020 --> 55:54.140]  However, we have a consignment sale at our show.
[55:54.300 --> 55:57.160]  Our show is not a swap or a flea, but we do have a consignment sale.
[55:57.500 --> 56:06.820]  So if you bring something that's on topic, as determined by us, you can sell it at consignment at our show, and we take a small percentage to benefit our club, which is a nonprofit, and you get the rest.
[56:07.120 --> 56:09.840]  What is your website so people can get more information on all that?
[56:10.440 --> 56:10.720]  Yep.
[56:10.880 --> 56:12.160]  It's visitigit.org.
[56:12.180 --> 56:12.860]  Pretty easy.
[56:12.860 --> 56:16.280]  And the first thing you'll see front and center there is VCF East 9.1.
[56:16.500 --> 56:18.300]  The name is kind of a fun little story.
[56:18.780 --> 56:23.440]  Every year we call our show 6.0, 7.0, 8.0 because we get to go version numbers.
[56:24.020 --> 56:25.900]  Last year, our show was canceled.
[56:26.060 --> 56:29.920]  We canceled it last spring because we still didn't have power after Hurricane Sandy.
[56:30.140 --> 56:30.680]  We're on a generator.
[56:30.680 --> 56:34.880]  Our facilities on a journey shore, which was dead center where we are, Hurricane Sandy.
[56:35.280 --> 56:38.400]  So this year, being good computer nerds, we decided to call it 9.1.
[56:38.580 --> 56:39.640]  We thought that was fun.
[56:40.120 --> 56:40.500]  Nice.
[56:41.020 --> 56:43.360]  Now, you guys are called VCF East.
[56:43.360 --> 56:44.980]  That implies there's a VCF West.
[56:46.040 --> 56:46.900]  There was.
[56:46.900 --> 56:55.500]  It went on hiatus a few years ago, and we're looking for someone who's got the business sense of marketing shops and event management experience to bring it back.
[56:56.480 --> 56:58.420]  You know anyone just has to email me.
[56:59.040 --> 57:01.260]  Meanwhile, there's a VCF Midwest in Chicago.
[57:01.260 --> 57:03.080]  There's a VCF Southeast in Atlanta.
[57:03.360 --> 57:06.360]  There's a VCF Europa in Munich, Germany every year.
[57:06.680 --> 57:10.680]  And we're open to events in Canada, Japan, South America.
[57:10.820 --> 57:11.740]  Oh, there's one in the U.K.
[57:12.840 --> 57:14.620]  We're open to events around the world.
[57:14.780 --> 57:16.060]  We want to conquer the planet.
[57:16.260 --> 57:18.540]  We just need people to run each one.
[57:18.640 --> 57:20.120]  And, of course, it's a thankless job.
[57:20.220 --> 57:30.560]  Hey, Evan, before you go, I wanted to mention that a lot of the Vintage Computer Festival East is done largely by the folks at March, the Mid-Atlantic Retro-Computing Hobbyist Group, right?
[57:31.180 --> 57:31.780]  That's right.
[57:31.860 --> 57:38.380]  So March is basically, to continue my earlier analogy, we're basically the same as an antique car club, but we're chit-hands instead of gearheads.
[57:38.600 --> 57:51.260]  Now, at every HOPE conference, all the most recent HOPE conferences going back quite a few years, March has brought an amazing interactive hands-on exhibit of vintage computers to the HOPE conference.
[57:51.260 --> 57:51.760]  Isn't that right?
[57:52.480 --> 57:54.080]  Yeah, we love the HOPE conference.
[57:54.240 --> 57:55.780]  We're totally stoked about this year's show.
[57:56.020 --> 57:59.280]  And this year, we're also playing a lecture called What If?
[57:59.520 --> 58:06.720]  And we're going to look at maybe 10 or so historical moments in the history of computing and talk about what if they had gone just a little bit different?
[58:06.900 --> 58:07.700]  What would have happened?
[58:07.960 --> 58:08.320]  Wow.
[58:08.600 --> 58:15.200]  Listen, Evan, we're out of time, but one more time, tell us the information about the conference so people interested can make their way down there.
[58:15.860 --> 58:19.580]  April 4th, 5th, and 6th at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey.
[58:20.100 --> 58:22.020]  Yes, you can get there by training from New York City.
[58:22.200 --> 58:26.520]  It's all on vintage.org, and it all benefits Nonprofit Computer Club.
[58:26.700 --> 58:28.880]  Everyone from families to hardcore techies is welcome.
[58:29.440 --> 58:31.060]  Evan Koblenz from the Vintage Computer Festival.
[58:31.060 --> 58:34.640]  Thanks so much for what you do, and hopefully people will make their way down there.
[58:34.780 --> 58:37.320]  It's a great event and really inspirational.
[58:37.320 --> 58:39.180]  And that's going to do it for us here tonight.
[58:39.500 --> 58:41.440]  We are pretty much out of time.
[58:41.960 --> 58:45.080]  You can write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[58:45.200 --> 58:45.600]  See you next week.
[58:45.700 --> 58:45.820]  Good night.
[59:08.580 --> 59:11.380]  We'll be right back.
[59:58.410 --> 01:00:01.290]  We'll be right back.
[01:00:13.430 --> 01:00:13.910]  Oh,
[01:00:29.450 --> 01:00:31.390]  oh, oh, hey, hey, hey.
[01:00:32.350 --> 01:00:33.770]  Wow, that was it.
[01:00:34.610 --> 01:00:35.930]  Well, you know what?
[01:00:36.770 --> 01:00:39.010]  I say that we should have more snow.
[01:00:39.550 --> 01:00:41.850]  Maybe not here in New York, but D.C.
[01:00:41.850 --> 01:00:42.350]  is fine.
[01:00:42.430 --> 01:00:43.330]  It can snow down there.
[01:00:43.330 --> 01:00:43.890]  I don't care.
[01:00:44.770 --> 01:00:45.270]  All right?
[01:00:45.270 --> 01:00:45.290]  All right?