[00:00.080 --> 00:08.800]  Tickets are available through WBAI.org or by calling 718-788-5263.
[00:08.960 --> 00:13.690]  That number again is 718-788-5263.
[00:13.930 --> 00:23.860]  You can make arrangements to get the tickets by calling the aforementioned number or pick them up at WBAI's administrative office located at 388 Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn.
[00:24.180 --> 00:28.560]  And thank you once again for supporting WBAI New York Pacific Radio.
[00:32.050 --> 00:34.950]  And this is Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:35.170 --> 00:36.510]  The time is 7 o'clock.
[00:36.790 --> 00:38.950]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:44.120 --> 00:48.580]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:49.560 --> 00:54.060]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[00:54.720 --> 00:56.920]  We couldn't get much worse.
[00:59.690 --> 01:02.350]  Bon diddly bon for the best, expect the worst.
[01:02.950 --> 01:04.830]  I hope that's understood.
[01:05.070 --> 01:05.870]  Bon diddly bon!
[02:02.850 --> 02:05.370]  And a very good afternoon to everybody.
[02:05.630 --> 02:06.510]  Good evening to everybody.
[02:06.950 --> 02:08.750]  That's really morning to me still.
[02:09.470 --> 02:10.470]  It's Off the Hook.
[02:10.590 --> 02:14.650]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday, whatever time of day it is.
[02:14.810 --> 02:16.150]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:16.610 --> 02:17.070]  Hi there.
[02:17.190 --> 02:17.590]  Rob T.
[02:17.730 --> 02:18.230]  Firefly.
[02:18.550 --> 02:18.970]  Good evening.
[02:19.210 --> 02:19.510]  Kyle.
[02:19.990 --> 02:21.870]  Hello there, lovely listener, Franz.
[02:22.190 --> 02:26.850]  And joining us on our brand new state-of-the-art Comrex system, Bernie S.
[02:27.590 --> 02:30.630]  Actually, I'm on a state-of-the-art, clean old telephone system.
[02:30.730 --> 02:32.290]  You sound like garbage again.
[02:32.290 --> 02:32.870]  What happened?
[02:33.430 --> 02:33.950]  I don't know.
[02:34.070 --> 02:39.790]  Maybe WBA forgot to pay its internet connection bill for the Comrex.
[02:39.870 --> 02:40.130]  I don't know.
[02:40.190 --> 02:41.590]  So I'm calling in on a regular phone line.
[02:41.690 --> 02:43.630]  Actually, I'm calling in on a cell phone.
[02:43.650 --> 02:45.350]  I could call in on a landline, but...
[02:45.350 --> 02:48.970]  You know, I just want to share this story with the listeners and with you, Bernie, because I don't think you heard it.
[02:48.970 --> 02:52.210]  And it's just a typical BAI type of event.
[02:52.210 --> 02:53.990]  And I don't mean it in a disparaging way.
[02:54.090 --> 03:00.130]  I mean it in a kind of a fatalistic, kind of Kafka-esque way, if Kafka had more of a sense of humor.
[03:01.710 --> 03:15.950]  Basically, there was supposed to be a conference call by BAI and Pacifica and all that to discuss the crisis with the transmitter, where the rent check was returned because we were late paying it so many times and we might have to move the transmitter someplace else.
[03:16.090 --> 03:20.290]  But they weren't able to have the conference call because they didn't pay the conference call company.
[03:20.970 --> 03:21.550]  Wait a minute.
[03:21.670 --> 03:23.090]  You did free services, if you did.
[03:23.130 --> 03:24.110]  I'm not making this up.
[03:24.170 --> 03:24.930]  I know that, too.
[03:25.010 --> 03:28.610]  But I just saw that going by on one of the message boards.
[03:28.610 --> 03:31.430]  I thought that was just too priceless to not note.
[03:33.450 --> 03:34.330]  It's amazing.
[03:34.870 --> 03:36.850]  People have written books about this place.
[03:37.090 --> 03:37.670]  Hey, Emanuel?
[03:37.890 --> 03:38.130]  Yes.
[03:38.770 --> 03:40.230]  I don't know if we can talk about this.
[03:40.230 --> 03:41.370]  I'm going to say it on the air anyway.
[03:42.050 --> 03:46.830]  WBI did pay its transmitter space rent bill.
[03:46.950 --> 03:47.650]  It paid the bills.
[03:47.810 --> 03:48.070]  Right.
[03:48.130 --> 03:50.050]  But the Empire State Building sent the checks back.
[03:50.850 --> 03:52.430]  That's the understanding, yes.
[03:52.550 --> 03:54.450]  So that's what's being reported.
[03:55.410 --> 03:58.570]  But they sent it back because we had a history of paying late.
[03:58.610 --> 03:59.870]  That's also my understanding.
[04:00.250 --> 04:02.890]  Well, apparently those were paid on time.
[04:02.990 --> 04:08.710]  Maybe they just want to get out of it and rent that space out to a higher-paying renter.
[04:09.090 --> 04:14.230]  But here's a trick I used with a landlord years ago that a friend of mine who's a judge told me to try.
[04:14.410 --> 04:23.030]  It's like, okay, if they send the check back and try to falsely claim you didn't pay, just deposit the checks directly into the bank account.
[04:23.030 --> 04:24.450]  Because you know what their account number is.
[04:24.550 --> 04:27.330]  It's written on the back of the endorsed checks that you deposited previously.
[04:28.090 --> 04:29.130]  You paid previously.
[04:29.490 --> 04:31.290]  Just deposit it right into the bank account.
[04:31.390 --> 04:33.330]  And then they can't give the money.
[04:33.410 --> 04:34.150]  What are they going to do then?
[04:34.170 --> 04:35.610]  They can't force you to take the money back.
[04:36.670 --> 04:39.470]  Well, couldn't they turn around and deposit it into your account?
[04:39.470 --> 04:41.770]  Because your account is written on every check you've given them.
[04:41.990 --> 04:43.090]  Ah, that's where it comes in.
[04:43.270 --> 04:46.510]  What you would do is you would actually change your checking account number.
[04:46.590 --> 04:46.910]  Oh, my God.
[04:46.910 --> 04:50.090]  And then go buy, purchase, purchase a cashier's check at a bank.
[04:50.390 --> 04:52.710]  And then deposit that into their bank account.
[04:52.810 --> 04:55.570]  And then they'd have no account number to deposit the money back into it.
[04:55.630 --> 04:57.210]  I forgot who I was dealing with here.
[04:57.330 --> 04:57.510]  Yes.
[04:57.510 --> 04:58.590]  Well, let me just say one thing.
[04:58.710 --> 05:03.570]  I actually did share that with some people at WBAI.
[05:03.710 --> 05:09.050]  And I heard from none other than Scott Sommer, who is the expert on landlord-tenant relations.
[05:09.470 --> 05:11.010]  It's a housing notebook here on WBAI.
[05:11.170 --> 05:11.670]  Awesome program.
[05:11.790 --> 05:12.310]  You should listen to it.
[05:12.930 --> 05:19.510]  That works sometimes with tenants' residences, but it does not work with commercial leases.
[05:19.770 --> 05:20.710]  That's what I'm told.
[05:20.850 --> 05:22.050]  And I would believe him.
[05:22.750 --> 05:27.390]  Well, I mean, WBAI could still maybe buy some time by trying this.
[05:28.090 --> 05:30.030]  Well, he'd definitely get some attention, that's for sure.
[05:30.150 --> 05:30.510]  Yes, Mike.
[05:30.690 --> 05:36.010]  I've never once been in a business dispute that involved people forcing money on each other.
[05:36.150 --> 05:38.110]  It's much more common the other way.
[05:38.410 --> 05:38.790]  Yeah.
[05:38.790 --> 05:44.610]  Yeah, I haven't been in those situations either, but maybe something in the future.
[05:45.250 --> 05:49.250]  Okay, so this has been incredibly hectic, as always.
[05:50.650 --> 05:52.910]  Kyle and I just drove in here in a monsoon.
[05:54.070 --> 05:55.330]  Kyle, you're kind of speechless.
[05:55.570 --> 05:56.870]  We almost got hit by lightning, in fact.
[05:57.290 --> 06:01.250]  Yeah, we were right in the center of this lightning strike area.
[06:01.890 --> 06:02.910]  And you were driving.
[06:02.910 --> 06:06.630]  I was actually writing material for the upcoming program.
[06:06.850 --> 06:16.810]  See, last week at this time, we were talking about how our distributor basically left us in the lurch and owes us a ton of money and apparently isn't intending to pay.
[06:17.690 --> 06:25.130]  The source interlink fiasco, they turned into the Enthusiast Network, or a branch of them turned into the Enthusiast Network.
[06:25.290 --> 06:27.890]  Tan, the Enthusiast Network is their ridiculous name.
[06:27.890 --> 06:31.130]  And what has happened in the last week is really incredible.
[06:31.450 --> 06:33.650]  That story has just spread like wildfire.
[06:34.670 --> 06:38.790]  And everybody is basically trying to pressure them.
[06:38.850 --> 06:39.610]  It's not going to do any good.
[06:39.610 --> 06:40.350]  I know this.
[06:41.110 --> 06:50.710]  They have all the legal people and they have all the accountants that can figure out how to get away with this, how to run a profitable company while claiming their other half is out of business and they don't have to pay any debts.
[06:51.670 --> 06:54.850]  These are the people who publish Motor Trend Magazine, among many other magazines.
[06:55.010 --> 06:56.510]  So they're making quite a bit of cash.
[06:56.610 --> 06:58.030]  The point is they're still around.
[06:58.250 --> 06:59.030]  Yeah, they're still...
[06:59.030 --> 07:01.670]  And they could honor their bills and whatnot.
[07:02.150 --> 07:06.430]  And, you know, you might say, oh, yes, but they're separate, different companies.
[07:06.590 --> 07:08.010]  They work completely independently.
[07:08.190 --> 07:20.410]  However, they worked together when they rebranded their name, when they changed from Source Interlink Publishing to the Enthusiast Network, when they did that the exact same moment, that Source Interlink distribution said, you know what?
[07:20.410 --> 07:21.390]  We're not going to do this anymore.
[07:21.630 --> 07:25.010]  So they definitely are in the same area and working together.
[07:25.330 --> 07:26.830]  It's planned corporate amnesia.
[07:27.050 --> 07:27.210]  Yeah.
[07:27.530 --> 07:35.790]  And again, I'm not fooling myself, and I don't think anybody else is fooled here, that we're going to win and get them to say, yes, you're legally right.
[07:35.790 --> 07:39.190]  Because legally, they own the courts and they can do things like this.
[07:39.310 --> 07:40.910]  Morally, however, they are far from right.
[07:41.010 --> 07:44.010]  And I think that's the pressure that people on the net have been putting on them.
[07:44.010 --> 07:50.830]  And it's been really impressive so far, just seeing how many people are saying things and voicing support.
[07:51.590 --> 07:52.770]  And it's just...
[07:52.770 --> 07:54.190]  Registering domain names, too, apparently.
[07:54.390 --> 07:55.690]  Well, yeah, I heard about that.
[07:55.810 --> 07:56.010]  Yeah.
[07:56.070 --> 07:56.550]  That's interesting.
[07:56.730 --> 08:00.230]  Apparently, these bozos didn't even register the name of their company.
[08:00.770 --> 08:09.850]  And so, naturally, when this got tweeted like a million times, somebody else did that, both with the number 10 and the letters 10.
[08:09.850 --> 08:13.070]  And, of course, now it's redirecting to the story about how they ripped us off.
[08:13.430 --> 08:19.410]  So, yeah, you know, you pissed off the internet, and now you're going to have to deal with that for a while.
[08:19.630 --> 08:21.210]  Okay, but that's where we were last week.
[08:21.330 --> 08:27.890]  And where we stood at that point was we weren't able to put out a printed program for the conference.
[08:28.070 --> 08:29.250]  Which is a tradition at Hope.
[08:29.350 --> 08:30.110]  It really is, yeah.
[08:30.110 --> 08:31.790]  It's been there almost at every event.
[08:31.790 --> 08:36.310]  I know people say you could do it all on an Android phone or some kind of app.
[08:36.450 --> 08:39.690]  And, yeah, you know, it's good.
[08:39.810 --> 08:40.690]  That's one way to do it.
[08:40.870 --> 08:42.170]  Websites, all kinds of things like that.
[08:42.270 --> 08:43.970]  But people do like to have a printed program.
[08:44.090 --> 08:44.650]  Isn't that right, Bernie?
[08:45.450 --> 08:46.170]  I love it.
[08:46.310 --> 08:47.070]  I mean, you're a publisher.
[08:47.330 --> 08:47.850]  You should know.
[08:48.030 --> 08:53.250]  Paper is something you want to carry around at a conference, say, and circle with a pen or a pencil.
[08:53.410 --> 08:55.970]  I'm going to receive a circle, this talk, and I'm going to receive this talk.
[08:56.530 --> 08:58.230]  And it's just convenient.
[08:58.370 --> 08:59.730]  And it doesn't use any electricity.
[08:59.730 --> 09:06.010]  Well, anyway, we have gotten a bunch of support, and we've also found a really, really good price.
[09:06.010 --> 09:07.850]  So we decided, yes, let's do this.
[09:07.930 --> 09:09.570]  Let's not let tradition die.
[09:09.690 --> 09:11.130]  So the program will be printed.
[09:11.230 --> 09:14.510]  But that means we had to scramble because we only found this out yesterday.
[09:15.190 --> 09:23.430]  And so I was basically writing things in the car while Kyle was driving, and we had thunder and lightning and traffic like you wouldn't believe, flooding.
[09:23.550 --> 09:27.710]  It was like everybody was trying to keep this from happening.
[09:27.710 --> 09:49.310]  It makes us really appreciate how much organization is centered on that program because not only does it help instruct people during the event, but us assembling all of our different schedules and different projects and everything in one place like that is a way of organizing ourselves as the people running and volunteering during Hope.
[09:49.310 --> 09:58.710]  So it took quite a bit to get everybody back on track to get the program going, but that's exactly what we're working with right now as far as the deadlines.
[09:58.970 --> 10:01.950]  And what's cool is we constructed a grid of the schedule.
[10:02.010 --> 10:04.770]  And when you do that, you see just how amazing it is.
[10:04.850 --> 10:06.990]  You see just what the lineup is going to be.
[10:06.990 --> 10:15.550]  And wow, if I wasn't one of the coordinators of this thing, I would really want to go and just sit back and enjoy it all.
[10:16.430 --> 10:22.570]  But yeah, so basically the upshot of all this is that I haven't had time to prepare any material for the show.
[10:22.650 --> 10:23.810]  So I hope you guys have something.
[10:23.970 --> 10:30.950]  I've got nothing except experiences and tales of tribulation and various maybe thoughts and opinions.
[10:30.950 --> 10:32.690]  So yeah, take it away, Mike.
[10:32.770 --> 10:33.390]  Let's see if you have something to say.
[10:33.590 --> 10:34.230]  I got a lawsuit.
[10:35.110 --> 10:37.970]  Not that I'm involved in, but that some people we know are involved in.
[10:37.990 --> 10:38.410]  You ought to try it sometime.
[10:38.570 --> 10:38.930]  It's fun.
[10:39.110 --> 10:40.050]  You know, lawsuits are...
[10:40.050 --> 10:40.770]  Well, you know, maybe something...
[10:40.770 --> 10:43.050]  They follow me around like a bunch of flies, but...
[10:43.050 --> 10:45.630]  I have to say, if I was going to be involved in a lawsuit, this would be the one to be involved in.
[10:45.650 --> 10:46.510]  Okay, well, tell us.
[10:46.670 --> 10:46.910]  All right.
[10:46.970 --> 10:50.670]  So on one side of the lawsuit are Rise Up, the internet.
[10:52.150 --> 10:55.510]  They don't really want to be called an internet service provider, but they kind of are anyway.
[10:55.590 --> 10:57.190]  They're on the internet and they're providing a service.
[10:57.330 --> 10:58.110]  And they're awesome.
[10:58.110 --> 11:14.250]  The Green Net from the UK, Green Host from the Netherlands, Mango from Zimbabwe, Jimbo Net from Korea, May 1st, People Link from here in New York, another awesome group, and the Chaos Computer Club, about which we really need to say no more about how awesome they are.
[11:15.010 --> 11:15.550]  We could, though.
[11:15.570 --> 11:16.510]  We could go on for a long time.
[11:16.590 --> 11:19.550]  We could, but we have only, you know, 50 minutes left.
[11:20.270 --> 11:23.310]  And Privacy International, the NGO in the UK.
[11:23.490 --> 11:24.870]  All right, everybody who's cool is in on this lawsuit.
[11:25.010 --> 11:25.870]  How come we're not in on this lawsuit?
[11:25.870 --> 11:26.230]  I don't know.
[11:28.110 --> 11:29.630]  They're suing, they're suing the GCHQ.
[11:30.410 --> 11:30.810]  Awesome.
[11:31.190 --> 11:31.450]  Wow.
[11:33.570 --> 11:37.770]  For those of you who don't know, GCHQ is like the equivalent of what?
[11:37.930 --> 11:39.530]  Our CIA or...
[11:39.530 --> 11:40.450]  CIA, NSA.
[11:41.350 --> 11:41.870]  They're Brits.
[11:42.110 --> 11:44.530]  Yeah, they're sort of the British spies.
[11:44.790 --> 11:45.730]  They're not the MI5.
[11:46.050 --> 11:48.490]  They're a branch of them that does a lot of spying.
[11:48.590 --> 11:49.750]  So yeah, they're like the NSA equivalent.
[11:49.950 --> 11:50.490]  Anyway, go on, Mike.
[11:50.490 --> 11:52.930]  It doesn't say in this article what it stands for.
[11:53.250 --> 12:04.890]  But these organizations are suing the GCHQ to end the spying that the GCHQ is doing over all these international networks and in the UK as well.
[12:04.890 --> 12:12.890]  So the complaint was lodged today, and I think this actually did come out today, in the Investigatory Powers Tribunal.
[12:13.070 --> 12:18.110]  So the claimants are asserting that the GCHQ attacks are not only illegal, but also just destructive.
[12:18.310 --> 12:19.250]  They undermine the goodwill.
[12:19.490 --> 12:26.990]  People are afraid to use these wonderful providers because they think their communications are going going to be read by the GCHQ.
[12:28.070 --> 12:41.050]  And I mean, we've gone on at length on this program about the sorts of things that GCHQ and NSA, such good friends, are doing to read all of our communications.
[12:41.090 --> 12:51.270]  They're inserting so-called man-in-the-middle attacks where they actually go into the communications and disrupt them that way.
[12:53.690 --> 12:58.950]  This brief says that it's a man-on-the-side technique, which is slightly different, I guess.
[13:02.950 --> 13:10.930]  Just so you know, GCHQ is Government Communications Headquarters, and they were formed in 1919, which I think beats us, right?
[13:11.910 --> 13:15.610]  I mean, Bernie, maybe you know more about the precise history of the NSA.
[13:15.610 --> 13:22.510]  There was a long line of sort of organizations that all succeeded each other until the NSA finally got formed.
[13:22.530 --> 13:24.450]  I know more than anybody because I'm looking at the Wikipedia page right now.
[13:24.450 --> 13:24.990]  That's cheating.
[13:25.210 --> 13:34.670]  I can see that when they were formed in 1919, it was right after the First World War, and they were known as the GCNCS, which we all know means Government Code and Cipher School.
[13:35.190 --> 13:35.630]  Obviously.
[13:35.910 --> 13:36.110]  Yeah.
[13:36.530 --> 13:45.310]  And they're in a building known as the Donut in the suburbs of Cheltenham, and they operate under the formal direction of the Joint Intelligence Committee, known as JIC.
[13:45.310 --> 13:50.150]  See, alongside the security service known as MI5, which Kyle referred to.
[13:50.330 --> 13:51.610]  Bernie, do you have anything to add to that?
[13:51.910 --> 13:53.550]  Well, I thought we were talking about...
[13:53.550 --> 13:55.050]  Mike just asked about the history of NSA.
[13:55.250 --> 13:59.810]  It first got its name, I think, in 1952, or early 50s.
[14:00.910 --> 14:02.510]  Maybe that was President Eisenhower?
[14:02.730 --> 14:03.430]  I'm trying to remember.
[14:04.230 --> 14:05.810]  Or whoever was after Eisenhower.
[14:06.890 --> 14:09.150]  So, in any case, but they were doing...
[14:09.150 --> 14:09.790]  The U.S.
[14:09.870 --> 14:14.530]  government was doing this kind of electronic spying well before that, but it got its secret name.
[14:14.730 --> 14:16.390]  Even the name was almost classified.
[14:17.050 --> 14:20.430]  Nobody even knew what the National Security Agency was until...
[14:20.430 --> 14:21.850]  Really, until...
[14:21.850 --> 14:28.390]  I read it until a book by James Bamford came out around 1981, 1982, which kind of blew the cover on it.
[14:28.530 --> 14:29.370]  The Puzzle Palace.
[14:29.370 --> 14:30.150]  That's right.
[14:30.330 --> 14:34.010]  It was the only book to ever be classified after it was published.
[14:35.550 --> 14:35.990]  Yeah.
[14:36.190 --> 14:36.410]  That's amazing.
[14:36.410 --> 14:41.850]  Ronald Reagan classified the portions of that book, the first edition.
[14:43.270 --> 14:44.150]  There's also...
[14:44.150 --> 14:45.070]  I can't...
[14:45.070 --> 15:08.230]  I get the gist of what you're saying, Bernie, but there's also a really good article in the latest 2600, or one of the recent ones, that talks about the use of different territories under British colonial rule, where having rights to those beaches and territories and far-flung places allowed further reach for telegraph and then other telecommunications cables,
[15:08.470 --> 15:18.590]  which is why the alliance for NSA and GCHQ-type entities is so crucial, because they have access to all those territories if they play nice with the...
[15:18.590 --> 15:19.290]  What is it?
[15:19.350 --> 15:20.050]  Like the big five?
[15:20.170 --> 15:20.470]  What is it?
[15:20.470 --> 15:22.710]  Like the Australia, the five what?
[15:22.930 --> 15:23.670]  It's also called the...
[15:23.670 --> 15:27.110]  For longer than five, I think it's been called the UK-USA alliance.
[15:27.330 --> 15:31.490]  As Mike pointed out, basically English-speaking white people, countries.
[15:32.190 --> 15:33.970]  Somehow the Irish are not involved.
[15:34.670 --> 15:34.990]  Yeah.
[15:34.990 --> 15:36.050]  They don't have anything to do with it.
[15:36.090 --> 15:36.390]  I don't know.
[15:37.090 --> 15:37.450]  We'll figure.
[15:37.970 --> 15:38.490]  All right.
[15:38.570 --> 15:39.930]  So this lawsuit has been filed.
[15:40.550 --> 15:41.870]  And that's the big news.
[15:42.070 --> 15:42.750]  It's the big news.
[15:42.910 --> 15:43.090]  Okay.
[15:43.210 --> 15:46.390]  Privacy International in the UK is sort of leading the charge.
[15:46.390 --> 15:49.890]  And all these wonderful organizations are the plaintiffs.
[15:50.470 --> 15:53.210]  There's quotes from all of them if you want to hear one in particular.
[15:53.530 --> 15:55.450]  But we wish them luck.
[15:55.450 --> 15:56.270]  Yeah, let's hear one in particular.
[15:56.590 --> 15:57.310]  You have a favorite?
[15:57.670 --> 15:59.090]  I don't know the quote yet, so I don't...
[15:59.090 --> 16:00.410]  No, but you have a favorite organization.
[16:00.590 --> 16:02.110]  What is the CCC thing?
[16:02.470 --> 16:02.750]  All right.
[16:02.750 --> 16:03.730]  Yeah, that's a good one.
[16:03.850 --> 16:04.070]  All right.
[16:04.130 --> 16:07.630]  The CCC was thoughtful enough to comment in English, so I can read it.
[16:07.690 --> 16:09.670]  And no obscenities, too, because sometimes they use those.
[16:09.890 --> 16:10.130]  Yeah.
[16:10.130 --> 16:14.430]  This is Jan Gerlich, who's the spokesperson for the CCC.
[16:14.790 --> 16:20.750]  He said that the GCHQ's dragnet surveillance takes away all citizens' privacy rights indiscriminately.
[16:20.950 --> 16:31.550]  Thus, not only lawyers, doctors, journalists, and many more people are robbed of their working bases, but everybody is stripped of his or her ability to object to their government's opinion without fear of retribution.
[16:32.130 --> 16:40.950]  Monitoring all communications secretively and without any effective control nor checks and balances breaks the foundations on which our modern democracies are based on.
[16:41.570 --> 16:46.410]  We are heading towards a police state, and the only way to stop this is to bring mass surveillance to an end.
[16:47.070 --> 16:47.770]  All right.
[16:48.190 --> 16:53.850]  That's strong words, but I expect nothing less from CCC or from any of those organizations.
[16:54.210 --> 17:02.750]  And, you know, that particular subject matter is something that we are focusing on at Hope on an unbelievable scale.
[17:02.750 --> 17:15.050]  I was just going through the whole schedule and realizing how many amazing anti-surveillance talks, technical, non-technical, by real experts, are taking place in three days.
[17:15.230 --> 17:25.590]  We have a lot of other material, too, but wow, I don't think we've ever anywhere has had this kind of expertise under a single roof before, which probably makes us a target for all sorts of things.
[17:25.630 --> 17:28.790]  But it's a thing that needs to be done.
[17:28.970 --> 17:30.610]  It's a conversation that needs to happen.
[17:31.190 --> 17:35.330]  And again, for more information, go to x.hope.net.
[17:35.470 --> 17:38.290]  You'll see the entire schedule.
[17:38.450 --> 17:43.910]  I'm not sure if a grid is up yet on the website, but we do have all the times that talks are taking place.
[17:43.910 --> 17:46.510]  And it's not all 100% complete yet.
[17:46.510 --> 17:50.790]  We still have some other things to announce, which we'll be getting to in the...
[17:50.790 --> 17:52.970]  I guess we just have a little over two weeks left, right?
[17:53.790 --> 17:54.650]  Something like that, yeah.
[17:54.650 --> 17:56.530]  July 18th through 20th, Hotel Pennsylvania.
[17:56.850 --> 17:58.390]  And again, x.hope.net.
[17:58.390 --> 18:07.450]  Now, Kyle, I know we suggested a couple of weeks ago that people email us music that we were going to use for intervals between talks.
[18:07.490 --> 18:11.050]  This is something that we were inspired by, by CCC.
[18:11.250 --> 18:17.230]  In fact, they play a particular musical piece between all the talks.
[18:17.350 --> 18:25.210]  And because that musical piece isn't copywritten, it doesn't set off the flags at Google and YouTube and people can get about their lives.
[18:25.330 --> 18:28.070]  So we asked musicians to send us material.
[18:28.110 --> 18:29.710]  And we've been deluged, have we not?
[18:30.450 --> 18:31.150]  I'm sorry.
[18:31.250 --> 18:34.930]  You said two weeks till the conference and my heart stopped for a second.
[18:35.150 --> 18:37.090]  Yeah, well, don't worry about that because in three weeks it'll be over.
[18:38.170 --> 18:45.010]  Yeah, we have a really huge pile of email that we've partially sifted through.
[18:45.010 --> 18:50.250]  We're going to go back and go through everything fairly meticulously in time for the event.
[18:50.250 --> 18:54.750]  But we have yet to choose a particular track for intermission music.
[18:55.070 --> 18:56.610]  Well, there are three, in fact.
[18:56.810 --> 18:59.930]  And you've seen this yourself where I jumped up and said, that's it.
[19:00.210 --> 19:00.350]  Yes.
[19:00.590 --> 19:01.070]  Three different ones.
[19:02.330 --> 19:05.550]  So I would say we probably have something.
[19:05.710 --> 19:07.530]  We definitely have something that we can use.
[19:07.530 --> 19:10.310]  We just have to sort of figure out which one is really it.
[19:10.770 --> 19:14.770]  Yeah, and we might want to extend some of them or make a dub of it.
[19:14.810 --> 19:18.910]  So we'll loop it and make it a bit longer or change it in some subtle way.
[19:19.270 --> 19:28.890]  And we'll probably get in touch with the artist to see if they would like to participate in that or if they're okay at least with us modifying it a little bit to serve our purpose.
[19:29.110 --> 19:34.510]  We want to thank all those people who did send in selections because, wow, what a response.
[19:34.710 --> 19:36.270]  And so many talented people out there.
[19:36.570 --> 19:40.030]  And again, maybe we'll piece them together with your permission.
[19:40.030 --> 19:43.850]  Maybe we'll have a Hope Musician CD or something.
[19:44.070 --> 19:44.570]  Yes, Mike.
[19:44.610 --> 19:46.090]  You could use one track per day.
[19:46.410 --> 19:47.270]  One track per day?
[19:47.390 --> 19:50.330]  No, but the point is to have a theme that is recognizable.
[19:50.970 --> 19:57.630]  You know, that's when Kyle played the CCC theme a couple of weeks ago, we all said, wow, that brings back some memories.
[19:58.110 --> 20:00.430]  We're a very multifaceted conference, though.
[20:00.570 --> 20:02.310]  Yeah, but how many memories can we possibly handle?
[20:02.310 --> 20:16.570]  We want it to be pretty identifiable, but your participation certainly gives us a lot more options with the ambiance and overall aesthetic of our event and what kind of atmosphere we create.
[20:16.690 --> 20:27.150]  So we'll get to that and hopefully include some of the other things people have contributed in whatever way we come up with that is doable for us.
[20:27.910 --> 20:30.030]  I mean, maybe we could have a different track for each room.
[20:30.030 --> 20:30.450]  I don't know.
[20:30.630 --> 20:31.430]  We can figure something out.
[20:32.110 --> 20:36.230]  What if you hear this track and you're like, yes, I remember that is Pentop?
[20:36.990 --> 20:40.590]  If you really don't keep track of what room you're in, yeah, I guess it would be handy to have that.
[20:40.590 --> 20:47.950]  Well, I mean, it could be a talk you didn't see, and then you see it on video later, and you're like, ah, that puts me right back in Pentop.
[20:47.970 --> 20:49.990]  Yeah, but would the way the room looked tell you what room it was?
[20:50.110 --> 20:50.710]  No, that's cheating.
[20:50.710 --> 20:54.630]  Maybe we could have live musicians perform every intermission piece.
[20:55.330 --> 20:58.970]  So you can see this is one of the reasons why we take a long time to get things done.
[20:59.070 --> 21:00.530]  I don't even know which room is Pentop.
[21:00.610 --> 21:02.030]  When we do get them done...
[21:02.030 --> 21:03.070]  I know an accordion guy.
[21:03.410 --> 21:04.470]  Yeah, okay, you know...
[21:04.470 --> 21:05.650]  So I could bring my bagpipes.
[21:05.650 --> 21:07.450]  You did bring something up that's of interest.
[21:07.450 --> 21:11.470]  You said Pentop, and of course, that's what the room is called in the hotel.
[21:11.470 --> 21:18.590]  What we do, what we did starting a few conferences ago, was rename the rooms for the conference, and we named them after people we admire.
[21:19.270 --> 21:24.970]  And since it's on the website now, I guess we can reveal some of all the names.
[21:25.850 --> 21:30.310]  Track A is called Manning.
[21:31.190 --> 21:32.330]  What do you guys think of that?
[21:34.370 --> 21:36.570]  Isn't there a sports player by that name?
[21:36.710 --> 21:38.050]  Yeah, that's what we named it after, Mike.
[21:38.230 --> 21:39.150]  That's a silly choice.
[21:39.150 --> 21:40.470]  Eli Manning, we named after a quarterback.
[21:41.330 --> 21:45.830]  After Bradley slash Chelsea Manning, we named the main track area.
[21:46.750 --> 21:50.610]  And a track area B is named Serpico.
[21:51.430 --> 21:57.050]  Now, some of you might know, Serpico was an NYPD officer who ratted out his fellow cops.
[21:57.130 --> 21:58.430]  I'm saying that in a negative way.
[21:58.490 --> 22:04.170]  He actually did very good things by telling about corruption and all sorts of...
[22:04.170 --> 22:07.250]  And, of course, the source of the movie from the 1970s called Serpico.
[22:07.770 --> 22:10.990]  So he's somebody else that is worthy of being admired.
[22:12.130 --> 22:14.510]  Bernie, would you like to tell us other room names?
[22:14.510 --> 22:24.670]  Well, another New York connection we're paying homage to is Frank Olson, a doctor or a PhD.
[22:24.670 --> 22:26.470]  He was a chemist, researcher.
[22:26.710 --> 22:33.170]  Worked for the Central Intelligence Agency back in the 50s and worked on this program called...
[22:33.170 --> 22:37.010]  Or worked with people who were working on this program called MK Ultra, which is...
[22:37.010 --> 22:45.050]  Apparently, the CIA was dosing unwitting Americans and Canadians with LSD and other psycho...
[22:47.470 --> 22:51.050]  Other substances that were making them do strange things.
[22:51.050 --> 23:05.490]  And he had misgivings about this and was told to go to New York's Hotel Pennsylvania with a CIA colleague where he mysteriously fell to his death.
[23:06.970 --> 23:12.010]  And he was thought to have been at risk of exposing this program.
[23:12.010 --> 23:15.330]  Well, that's... that ties in in a very negative way.
[23:15.470 --> 23:22.070]  It's like... the Hotel Pennsylvania, the hotel we're having the conference in, is where this guy that we named a room after met his fate.
[23:22.590 --> 23:23.210]  That's right.
[23:23.410 --> 23:24.510]  It's pretty sad.
[23:24.870 --> 23:26.810]  But I don't want it to be forgotten.
[23:27.330 --> 23:27.590]  Uh-huh.
[23:28.190 --> 23:31.270]  Well, that's track C, named after him.
[23:32.010 --> 23:36.330]  And how about the fourth track, the unscheduled track, the one where people...
[23:36.330 --> 23:39.670]  Anybody can sign up and give a talk there on... on the spot.
[23:41.370 --> 23:42.310]  You could sign up?
[23:43.070 --> 23:43.970]  I could sign up.
[23:44.070 --> 23:44.670]  You could sign up.
[23:44.770 --> 23:45.510]  Anybody could sign up.
[23:45.810 --> 23:47.050]  Well, why don't you just call it the U-Broom?
[23:47.270 --> 23:48.970]  Well, I think that's what we decided to call it.
[23:49.050 --> 23:50.030]  It's called U.
[23:51.390 --> 23:53.470]  Because that's yet another person we admire.
[23:54.510 --> 23:55.950]  Y-O-U or just the letter?
[23:56.210 --> 23:58.050]  I guess you have to come to the conference to find that out.
[23:58.110 --> 24:01.970]  I plan to come to the conference, but I was hoping for a sneak preview of this important information.
[24:02.310 --> 24:02.630]  Well, what do you think?
[24:02.730 --> 24:04.110]  How do you think we'd spell the word U?
[24:04.290 --> 24:04.910]  I don't know.
[24:04.910 --> 24:07.990]  Oh, anything is possible in this crowd.
[24:08.110 --> 24:09.010]  Yeah, it certainly is.
[24:09.110 --> 24:09.410]  Yes, Rob?
[24:09.570 --> 24:13.390]  Well, it was a good move to name that room after a Time Person of the Year.
[24:13.610 --> 24:23.770]  But also, if you're curious about any of these individuals and you want to learn some more, we're going to have a little poster up at each room, as we usually do, telling you a little bit more about the person the room is named after.
[24:24.390 --> 24:25.850]  And Bernie's been helping me with that.
[24:27.230 --> 24:27.590]  Okay.
[24:27.590 --> 24:31.450]  Well, so that's pretty much where we stand as far as all that goes.
[24:31.450 --> 24:36.330]  Anything else that we'd like to ask people to help with or keep in mind?
[24:36.350 --> 24:37.890]  We still can use volunteers.
[24:38.390 --> 24:41.710]  And volunteers basically make the conference happen.
[24:42.410 --> 24:46.030]  You can sign up on the spot at the info desk on the second floor when you arrive.
[24:46.030 --> 24:51.350]  Or you can email volunteers at hope.net and tell us what you'd like to be involved with.
[24:51.350 --> 24:52.470]  And we can set you up.
[24:54.130 --> 24:54.530]  Yep.
[24:54.530 --> 24:56.210]  Where were we on vendors?
[24:56.410 --> 24:57.130]  How's that all going?
[24:57.950 --> 24:58.330]  Wow.
[24:59.170 --> 25:00.350]  Finally, it's doing really well.
[25:00.450 --> 25:02.170]  We got things together at the last minute.
[25:02.330 --> 25:03.310]  We pulled together...
[25:03.310 --> 25:08.730]  I think we'll have sold or made available at least 20 tables will be filled with vendors.
[25:09.050 --> 25:10.930]  And we're not just talking about people selling stuff.
[25:10.930 --> 25:24.530]  We're talking about fine organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the ACLU, the Freedom of the Press Foundation, co-founded by none other than our keynote speaker, Daniel Ellsberg.
[25:26.190 --> 25:38.410]  And some vendors with some really amazing products and services that are worth checking out of interest to hackers and makers and creators of electronics.
[25:39.090 --> 25:41.210]  And that's all taking place on the second floor as well.
[25:41.250 --> 25:42.650]  So that'll be a hub of activity.
[25:42.870 --> 25:45.210]  Now, do we actually have any vendor space left?
[25:45.210 --> 25:49.270]  If someone listening now just realized they have something cool they want to offer at a vendor table?
[25:49.770 --> 25:51.530]  I think we have like two tables left now.
[25:51.910 --> 25:53.070]  So get on that very quickly.
[25:53.190 --> 25:53.290]  Okay.
[25:53.430 --> 25:55.710]  Email address is vendors at hope.net.
[25:55.870 --> 25:58.190]  And you'll be dealt with very swiftly.
[25:59.510 --> 26:00.610]  And justly as well.
[26:00.950 --> 26:01.410]  And nicely.
[26:01.630 --> 26:02.250]  Nicely, yes.
[26:02.270 --> 26:04.010]  I meant to say it in that way.
[26:04.010 --> 26:04.450]  Okay.
[26:04.550 --> 26:04.550]  Okay.
[26:04.590 --> 26:11.970]  Any news going on this week that perhaps I've been oblivious to because I've been in this world and nowhere else?
[26:12.230 --> 26:17.970]  I saw that something involving dynamic IPs today, a big scandal.
[26:18.170 --> 26:19.390]  Anyone want to talk about this?
[26:20.070 --> 26:21.890]  This story totally passed me by.
[26:22.070 --> 26:22.290]  Really?
[26:22.450 --> 26:22.590]  Okay.
[26:22.590 --> 26:26.390]  Our friend Juns, who puts the show on, had a problem with this.
[26:26.610 --> 26:29.890]  He lost his domain because something about Microsoft.
[26:30.510 --> 26:33.550]  Yeah, it was something involving a provider called NoIP, I believe.
[26:33.690 --> 26:34.210]  Is that it?
[26:34.410 --> 26:43.470]  And Microsoft had demanded something regarding one domain hosted on the service, irritated Microsoft.
[26:43.890 --> 26:49.590]  And Microsoft, to placate them, were given control of, I think, every domain hosted on the service.
[26:49.750 --> 26:51.510]  Or all but a few domains hosted on the service.
[26:52.030 --> 26:55.270]  Which included something our friend Juns was using it for.
[26:55.490 --> 26:56.810]  And he's not a happy camper.
[26:59.270 --> 27:03.910]  But, yeah, it seemed like I didn't get the chance to look at the whole story.
[27:04.030 --> 27:10.710]  But it seemed like sort of a standard grandstanding abuse of power and broken system of due process.
[27:11.250 --> 27:12.630]  I'm trying to look up the story.
[27:12.750 --> 27:14.410]  But our internet connection is like 300 baht.
[27:14.570 --> 27:15.750]  So it takes a little while.
[27:15.950 --> 27:19.190]  So I'll find the story and we'll say something intelligent about it.
[27:19.590 --> 27:21.030]  Until then, I do have another story.
[27:21.110 --> 27:23.190]  Something that just popped up on Ars Technica.
[27:23.190 --> 27:28.790]  And Goldman Sachs has demanded a court order to get Google to fix a mistake for them.
[27:28.870 --> 27:35.590]  This mistake was they sent an email accidentally containing private information to somebody on Gmail.
[27:36.970 --> 27:40.630]  They accidentally sent this private email to a Gmail user.
[27:40.630 --> 27:41.550]  They didn't intend to.
[27:41.870 --> 27:44.990]  And they could not contact that user.
[27:45.830 --> 27:47.510]  Although, apparently, they had their address.
[27:48.090 --> 27:54.710]  So what they're trying to do is get Google themselves to go into this Gmail user's inbox and delete the offending email that they sent.
[27:55.370 --> 27:55.810]  Wow.
[27:55.970 --> 27:57.050]  How's that going for them?
[27:57.750 --> 28:06.630]  I imagine it's probably going as well as can be expected, considering that this person, this mysterious Gmail user, could have already read their mail, could have already downloaded it to anywhere they want.
[28:06.630 --> 28:12.930]  And, yeah, but Goldman Sachs, one of their main distinguishing features is they have a great deal of money.
[28:13.330 --> 28:16.710]  So it will be very interesting to see where this goes.
[28:16.890 --> 28:23.470]  I mean, that is normally a distinguishing feature, but also the other party to this lawsuit, Google, also has a great deal of money.
[28:23.510 --> 28:26.610]  So it's hard to say how that factor will play out.
[28:26.610 --> 28:35.570]  Yeah, Goldman Sachs didn't specify to Reuters, who's reporting this, I think, how many clients were affected in the situation, which occurred on June the 23rd.
[28:36.190 --> 28:43.050]  A Goldman Sachs contractor was testing internal changes made to Goldman Sachs system to meet new requirements from the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority.
[28:43.690 --> 28:55.910]  To do this, the contractor prepared a report with sensitive client information, including details on brokerage accounts, and emailed it to, instead of the gs.com, which is Goldman Sachs' own domain, emailed it to a gmail.com address.
[28:56.330 --> 29:03.770]  And, yeah, that's totally the fault of Google and the Gmail user who should scramble to correct this grievous error.
[29:04.710 --> 29:10.970]  All right, I have some details on that story from one news site, and I'm sure there's more to this.
[29:11.610 --> 29:16.030]  It has to do with the seizure of no-ip.com.
[29:16.850 --> 29:26.590]  Microsoft apparently was able to seize a bunch of those domains, 23 of them, actually, in a cybercrime-related sweeping.
[29:28.230 --> 29:32.410]  And they are a Reno-Nevada-based company, no-ip.com.
[29:32.410 --> 29:42.970]  They provide a free dynamic DNS service, but this is causing outages for millions of legitimate users of the service and, according to this news story, at least one security vendor.
[29:42.970 --> 29:52.030]  The no-ip.com outages are having an impact on some customers of SonicWall, a vendor of network security and content control hardware appliances.
[29:52.910 --> 29:59.310]  SonicWall, which Dell acquired back in 2012, supports no-ip.com and other dynamic DNS services in its products.
[30:00.170 --> 30:12.050]  Now, some of the customers that are being affected are, get this, apartment complexes that run secret surveillance cameras behind SonicWall firewalls using no-ip's dynamic DNS service to relay the video feeds.
[30:12.450 --> 30:15.850]  These feeds are not working as of press time.
[30:16.770 --> 30:19.170]  So, this is really incredible.
[30:19.270 --> 30:28.890]  Microsoft, though, has justified its actions by claiming that no-ip.com's domains have been regularly used in malware attacks against millions of Windows users.
[30:29.370 --> 30:34.330]  And in Microsoft's view, no-ip.com hasn't done enough to stop this activity.
[30:34.870 --> 30:42.430]  So, that means basically that millions of people are being affected by this overreach of enforcement on Microsoft's part.
[30:42.670 --> 30:48.850]  You know what else is used by millions of malware authors and users is the Internet.
[30:48.850 --> 30:50.610]  So, obviously, we should shut that down as well.
[30:50.970 --> 30:52.510]  Well, I'm sure people will do that.
[30:52.530 --> 30:53.450]  You're going to say Microsoft Windows.
[30:54.030 --> 30:54.890]  That as well.
[30:55.010 --> 30:55.550]  Say that again?
[30:55.650 --> 30:57.370]  I thought Rob was going to say Microsoft Windows.
[30:57.790 --> 30:58.730]  Well, that too.
[30:58.930 --> 30:59.350]  That too.
[30:59.850 --> 31:04.290]  I mean, Microsoft, of all people, should understand that you make a product and people can use it for evil.
[31:04.510 --> 31:06.650]  It doesn't always mean it's an evil product.
[31:06.830 --> 31:10.130]  Sometimes it does, but it's a really weird story.
[31:10.570 --> 31:10.730]  Yeah.
[31:10.950 --> 31:13.030]  You heard about this Facebook study?
[31:13.150 --> 31:23.730]  I heard that people are upset that their emotions were being toyed with on Facebook and that they were basically having their emotions logged.
[31:23.850 --> 31:25.270]  There's some bizarre story like that.
[31:25.310 --> 31:27.010]  And I just wonder, you know, you're using Facebook.
[31:27.010 --> 31:27.990]  What do you expect?
[31:27.990 --> 31:31.870]  You expect people are going to be looking at your reaction to things.
[31:31.870 --> 31:33.930]  I don't know where the indignation comes from.
[31:34.090 --> 31:36.830]  I mean, I actually largely agree with you on this, Emmanuel.
[31:37.510 --> 31:45.870]  The Facebook, I guess, did a study where they could tell, basically, if the content of a post on the news feed was, like, happy or sad.
[31:46.810 --> 31:55.370]  And they chose some random subset of their users to be exposed to more happy stories and another subset to be exposed to more sad stories.
[31:55.370 --> 31:56.750]  And I suppose there was a control.
[31:58.790 --> 32:01.270]  And they discovered that if you...
[32:01.270 --> 32:07.470]  This is not maybe shocking, that if you send people a lot of happy stories, then they themselves, their posts will be happier.
[32:08.410 --> 32:11.250]  And so people are calling this the mood manipulation study.
[32:11.470 --> 32:17.270]  And so this is, like, kind of evil that they're making people sad just for fun.
[32:17.290 --> 32:18.090]  I'm trying to understand how it works.
[32:18.230 --> 32:20.210]  Who sent the sad stories to these people?
[32:20.350 --> 32:25.950]  So Facebook doesn't necessarily show you all the stories of everyone you know because that would be too much.
[32:25.950 --> 32:32.510]  So they have an algorithm that chooses which of those stories you will see and which you will see at the top.
[32:32.670 --> 32:40.450]  And so it's content that you sort of were agreeing to see, but they were choosing which of that content you were seeing.
[32:40.470 --> 32:42.430]  That alone right there is so offensive to me.
[32:42.550 --> 32:47.590]  They're telling me what I can see from people that I have chosen to follow or be friends with.
[32:47.590 --> 32:53.050]  And they're not showing things that they deem I don't want to see when, actually, I might want to see that.
[32:53.050 --> 32:58.270]  You know, I can never really feel comfortable with a whole Facebook interface.
[32:59.050 --> 33:05.070]  If you're looking at something and trying to read something, all of a sudden it changes to something else and you have to try and find it again.
[33:05.830 --> 33:09.010]  And there is so much that you don't see that you might want to see.
[33:09.990 --> 33:10.390]  Yeah.
[33:10.530 --> 33:16.310]  I mean, what's weird about this study is they published it in an academic journal, so we know about it.
[33:16.410 --> 33:25.990]  And they were supposed to get approval from this thing called the Institutional Review Board, which is a boring academic thing that you either feel very passionately about or never heard of.
[33:27.510 --> 33:40.030]  But the thing is, Facebook is manipulating the so-called news feed all the time, usually for much more evil purposes, which is to sell advertising or to just track you.
[33:40.370 --> 33:55.610]  So they have a service that even if you don't use Facebook or even if you're not using it at the moment, the little like buttons on seemingly every web page, they've recently started using those to track you so you can see what web pages you visited.
[33:55.610 --> 34:06.250]  If you visit a blog about cameras, then maybe you'll soon see on Facebook an ad for a camera or something 100 times more subtle than that but just as effective.
[34:06.770 --> 34:09.610]  And they didn't publish that in an academic journal.
[34:09.810 --> 34:11.270]  There was no IRB review.
[34:11.270 --> 34:13.350]  And there's a lot less outrage about it.
[34:13.470 --> 34:15.070]  So that's what's sort of bothering me.
[34:15.250 --> 34:20.850]  See, that's what I'd be more outraged at is them basically intruding onto your other web experiences.
[34:20.850 --> 34:24.870]  But if you're using Facebook, you can't be surprised that Facebook is going to try and manipulate that.
[34:25.430 --> 34:36.010]  But yeah, they're stepping over the line and they're starting to watch where you're going and send you targeted advertisements based on that without letting you know in advance that this is what they're going to be doing.
[34:36.130 --> 34:38.670]  Yeah, that's something that I have a real problem with.
[34:39.830 --> 34:44.810]  So I'm almost defending Facebook here by saying this is far from the most evil thing they do.
[34:44.950 --> 34:48.850]  But I don't know that they appreciate my solidarity.
[34:49.810 --> 34:59.030]  Well, speaking of, I guess, big corporations and interpretations of it, there are a couple of TV programs that have been on.
[34:59.130 --> 35:01.450]  I'm not sure if our listeners are looking at those.
[35:02.010 --> 35:05.210]  But one is called Silicon Valley.
[35:06.250 --> 35:07.710]  And what's the other one, Kyle?
[35:07.790 --> 35:08.890]  You found this other one.
[35:09.270 --> 35:10.030]  Halt and Catch Fire.
[35:10.310 --> 35:11.570]  Halt and Catch Fire.
[35:12.270 --> 35:15.070]  And the show begins by saying that that was an old instruction.
[35:15.510 --> 35:17.870]  I know Halt was an old instruction, but it was really...
[35:17.870 --> 35:18.530]  Bernie, you might know this.
[35:18.570 --> 35:21.190]  Was there an instruction known as Halt and Catch Fire?
[35:21.970 --> 35:23.770]  No, I don't think that and catch fire was.
[35:23.850 --> 35:26.150]  But Halt was definitely a computer instruction in...
[35:26.150 --> 35:27.470]  It might have been Fortran.
[35:27.710 --> 35:29.150]  I forget which language it was.
[35:29.270 --> 35:30.710]  I've been watching this series, by the way.
[35:30.710 --> 35:31.070]  You have?
[35:31.190 --> 35:31.350]  Okay.
[35:31.670 --> 35:34.370]  I don't get a chance to watch much TV, but I have the past couple, three weeks.
[35:34.530 --> 35:38.890]  And you know what's on the desktop of all the technicians at this show?
[35:39.110 --> 35:40.230]  It's a Xena Z100.
[35:40.350 --> 35:41.210]  Is that a Z100?
[35:41.410 --> 35:42.170]  It looks like it's...
[35:42.170 --> 35:43.130]  It's a Z120.
[35:43.270 --> 35:44.910]  It's the later version of that.
[35:45.150 --> 35:45.510]  All right.
[35:45.530 --> 35:47.970]  It's like, hey, that's the same computer you started 2600 with.
[35:48.910 --> 35:49.230]  That's...
[35:49.230 --> 35:50.070]  Well, actually...
[35:50.070 --> 35:50.630]  More or less.
[35:51.050 --> 35:54.990]  Technically, I started 2600 on a mainframe that I wasn't allowed to be on.
[35:55.810 --> 35:59.750]  But that was the only computer I had access to at the time, so I think it's justifiable.
[36:00.310 --> 36:03.350]  But, okay, that's interesting to know that those are, in fact, Zenith computers.
[36:03.510 --> 36:07.970]  But, okay, so the program itself, it's fictitious, I imagine.
[36:08.150 --> 36:13.030]  The companies involved, except for IBM, are fictitious companies and the people are fictitious?
[36:13.090 --> 36:14.450]  Am I right in that assessment?
[36:14.590 --> 36:23.310]  Well, I think it's a thinly veiled story about a lot of liberties taken about how Compaq started.
[36:23.710 --> 36:37.230]  Compaq had to clone or create a sterile clone of, legally sterile clone of the IBM PC BIOS, the basic input-output system chip that basically bootstraps the computer and everything.
[36:37.390 --> 36:44.970]  And they had to do it in an intellectual clean room so that they wouldn't be violating intellectual property law, copyright law.
[36:45.110 --> 36:46.330]  And it had to be completely developed.
[36:46.490 --> 36:52.030]  They knew what the inputs and outputs could be, but they couldn't know it was inside the black box of the developers.
[36:52.590 --> 37:03.850]  And the story surrounds this female coder who's charged with writing this bio, and it's actually pretty well written and acted, I think, so far.
[37:03.850 --> 37:04.590]  I've been impressed.
[37:05.730 --> 37:08.930]  Well, yeah, you know, I guess.
[37:09.490 --> 37:11.250]  I have trouble with the characters.
[37:11.350 --> 37:12.430]  I don't like any of the characters.
[37:12.590 --> 37:13.550]  In theory, yes.
[37:13.570 --> 37:14.390]  You're right, Bernie.
[37:14.550 --> 37:15.070]  In theory.
[37:16.250 --> 37:22.170]  Oh, it could be way better, but, I mean, compared to everything else on TV, I guess, you've got to compare it to something.
[37:22.330 --> 37:26.150]  It's got good bones, but there's some things missing.
[37:26.370 --> 37:27.130]  It could be...
[37:27.130 --> 37:27.910]  I don't know.
[37:28.070 --> 37:32.450]  If you're going to compare it to something, Bernie, compare it to Silicon Valley because that show, I think, is brilliant.
[37:32.850 --> 37:33.310]  That was good.
[37:33.390 --> 37:33.610]  Yeah.
[37:33.890 --> 37:54.470]  It only went six, eight episodes so far for the first season, but basically, kind of a farcical tale about Silicon Valley and companies like Google and people with way too much money and done in such a way that is spot on and hilarious and pretty damning too as well.
[37:55.610 --> 37:58.670]  That's something I do recommend if people find copies of that anywhere.
[37:59.070 --> 37:59.690]  Yeah.
[37:59.910 --> 38:14.890]  It really does illustrate like the culture around developers and people involved in venture capital and these kinds of results of the post.com era, I guess.
[38:15.390 --> 38:15.590]  Yeah.
[38:16.170 --> 38:16.270]  Yeah.
[38:16.370 --> 38:18.810]  So what's a company that's supposed to be Google but isn't?
[38:19.130 --> 38:19.530]  Hooli?
[38:19.610 --> 38:20.230]  Is that what they're called?
[38:20.450 --> 38:20.630]  Yeah.
[38:20.850 --> 38:20.990]  Yeah.
[38:21.170 --> 38:22.090]  They're pretty...
[38:22.090 --> 38:29.630]  They have all these things going on on their campus that I imagine mirror what happens at Google.
[38:30.550 --> 38:44.810]  There are these people that don't get assigned any task and they have nothing to do all day long but they still come to work and there's all kinds of benefits which are really kind of absurd and funny but it's worth checking out.
[38:44.890 --> 38:56.190]  Those two programs are definitely worth checking out and I'm not simply saying I like Silicon Valley because a lot of 2600 stuff appears in it and Hope stuff because we sent them things what, a year ago and we didn't even know who they were.
[38:56.290 --> 38:57.830]  We just knew that Mike Judge...
[38:57.830 --> 38:58.770]  We just knew it was a pilot.
[38:59.030 --> 38:59.170]  Yeah.
[38:59.230 --> 39:00.270]  Mike Judge was behind it.
[39:00.490 --> 39:02.310]  Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill and all that.
[39:03.490 --> 39:04.290]  So, yeah.
[39:04.570 --> 39:07.690]  It's good to see these things portrayed in various ways.
[39:07.870 --> 39:13.210]  Another really good parody of Google is actually in one episode of Veep.
[39:13.450 --> 39:13.890]  Oh, yes.
[39:13.890 --> 39:15.730]  It's referred to there as Clovis.
[39:15.970 --> 39:16.110]  Clovis.
[39:16.110 --> 39:19.370]  And it's really hysterical because it reminds us of a lot of people we've met.
[39:20.150 --> 39:20.570]  Yeah.
[39:20.770 --> 39:21.770]  Yeah, that's true.
[39:22.650 --> 39:26.930]  It's good to laugh at yourself, definitely and poke fun at others, of course.
[39:27.510 --> 39:28.910]  Okay, we're going to take phone calls.
[39:29.070 --> 39:31.710]  You can poke fun at us 212-209-2900.
[39:31.710 --> 39:44.370]  We'd like to hear your opinions on anything that we've talked about so far which is surprisingly quite a bit considering I came in here with absolutely nothing except a lot of moisture on my head from the torrential rains outside.
[39:45.430 --> 39:50.570]  Rob, let me ask you something before the end of the show because I usually remind people about 2,600 meetings first Friday of the month.
[39:50.910 --> 39:53.130]  This first Friday of the month is July 4th.
[39:53.210 --> 39:53.750]  So what are we doing?
[39:54.770 --> 39:56.110]  We're having a 2,600 meeting.
[39:56.230 --> 39:56.250]  Why?
[39:56.310 --> 39:57.510]  Is there something else going on that day?
[39:57.510 --> 40:09.250]  Well, yeah, there's two World Cup games and I understand a bit of fireworks and also a tropical storm might be hitting us so it's a day filled with activity.
[40:09.730 --> 40:25.710]  Well, if indeed conditions are safe because there's not much of a tropical storm then yeah, if you want to come to the 2,600 meeting here in New York City you could go to the Citigroup building on 53rd and Lexington in the atrium and join those of us who show up.
[40:26.250 --> 40:29.830]  Have we confirmed that the building will in fact be open being a holiday?
[40:29.970 --> 40:31.370]  Sometimes they close on holidays.
[40:31.750 --> 40:32.390]  Sometimes they do.
[40:32.590 --> 40:36.550]  I haven't confirmed if it's going to be open this year but the last time this happened was 2008.
[40:37.170 --> 40:37.930]  Wow, you remember that.
[40:38.070 --> 40:38.590]  I remember that.
[40:38.610 --> 40:46.790]  You know what, you're right because I realized that the last Hope which took place in 2008 took place on the same dates as Hope X July 18th through 20th.
[40:46.870 --> 41:00.030]  And we've actually got some pictures up on the website for the New York City meeting which is nyc2600.net of what we did that day which was those of us who showed up at the meeting we had our meeting and then we took a walk and went to see the fireworks together.
[41:00.750 --> 41:05.450]  So it was a fun little addition to the sort of normal routine of a 2600 meeting.
[41:05.590 --> 41:10.170]  So remember every 2600 meeting taking place this Friday throughout the world will be followed by fireworks.
[41:10.590 --> 41:12.810]  It's part of our way of just saying thanks.
[41:13.170 --> 41:13.670]  It's just for us.
[41:13.910 --> 41:25.950]  Also I was recently contacted by the person the point of contact for the Albany 2600 meeting who wanted to let who wanted to let their meeting goers know that the place that they have their meeting has been changed from what's in the magazine.
[41:26.330 --> 41:31.830]  So yeah go to the Albany 2600 site which I don't have the URL on me at the moment but...
[41:31.830 --> 41:35.570]  If you go to 2600.com and click on the meeting section you'll find it there.
[41:35.810 --> 41:39.350]  Yes indeed and check out what's going on with your meeting place.
[41:39.830 --> 41:46.870]  And if you have a meeting and basically meeting might not be the right word gathering is a better word because there's no agenda there's nobody on a lectern telling you various things.
[41:48.090 --> 41:53.670]  It's basically a gathering like you would gather in a mall and hang out with maybe 50 of your friends.
[41:54.090 --> 41:55.230]  Sometimes it's much less than that.
[41:55.290 --> 41:56.470]  Sometimes it's three people show up.
[41:56.570 --> 41:57.830]  Sometimes 75 people show up.
[41:57.870 --> 41:58.610]  You never really know.
[41:59.910 --> 42:05.790]  And it always happens on the first Friday of the month except in Israel where we just started this where it's the first Thursday of the month.
[42:07.490 --> 42:11.470]  But we basically have made this a tradition since 1987.
[42:11.670 --> 42:19.510]  And if you have an idea for a meeting or an idea for a location for a meeting email meetings at 2600.com and you'll get all the information you want.
[42:19.690 --> 42:23.870]  And a great thing about the 2600 meetings is that they evolve to serve the people who go to them.
[42:24.030 --> 42:32.190]  So in some areas they actually do have sort of agendas and presentations and things because that's what that group has come up with as something to do and it works for them.
[42:32.250 --> 42:36.830]  And other places it's much more loose and undefined whatever is going to go on.
[42:36.950 --> 42:48.390]  And some are large some are small and really if you start going to your local 2600 meeting then it will become something of what you're looking for at a 2600 meeting because it's made by the people who go there.
[42:48.510 --> 42:50.410]  And we all have stories from various meetings.
[42:50.510 --> 42:53.310]  Bernie, I know you used to go to the Philadelphia 2600 meetings, right?
[42:53.490 --> 42:54.450]  Yeah, actually I found it.
[42:54.530 --> 43:00.290]  Well, you actually had started formed the first 2600 meeting in Philadelphia which had one meeting it was you, me and Mike Juhas.
[43:00.830 --> 43:06.530]  And then but a couple years later I started the one in 1990 which continues to this day.
[43:06.650 --> 43:09.390]  I just don't go to it anymore because there are too many federal informants there.
[43:10.010 --> 43:12.490]  But yeah, that was quite a meeting.
[43:12.630 --> 43:15.810]  We had as many as 40-some people at some of those meetings.
[43:16.090 --> 43:17.990]  See, I have a different approach to that.
[43:18.110 --> 43:30.430]  Yes, there's lots of federal informants and local informants and international informants that show up at these things but I like to show up anyway just to counter that and to show them that hey, we have nothing to hide.
[43:30.770 --> 43:50.850]  It's easy for you to say, Emmanuel, though, if someone has personally informed upon you in an actual criminal case where you actually went to prison if you have any interaction with that federal witness afterwards you could be interpreted as witness intimidation even a dirty look so I prefer to keep away from that liability so unfortunately that's had to be my choice.
[43:51.170 --> 44:12.730]  Yeah, well that's an unfortunate choice but there are other cities some of them close to Philadelphia you could go to another place where hopefully there isn't somebody who testified against you and enjoy that meeting there we try to have them in as many different places as possible I know Kyle you've been to the Seattle 2600 meeting which continues to this day in the same location I think it's
[44:12.730 --> 44:30.050]  still there I got my uniform and everything and I think they still do the drills we have to do like 50 push-ups 50 sit-ups and then you have an all-terrain course you go around I was going to beg your pardon I'm like loosely organized we have this guy he stands at a pulpit Uh-huh.
[44:30.130 --> 44:30.770]  A pulpit.
[44:30.930 --> 44:32.990]  Yeah, it's kind of like a big lectern.
[44:33.550 --> 44:33.910]  Wow.
[44:35.130 --> 44:37.850]  You know, every meeting evolves in its own way.
[44:37.910 --> 44:41.290]  And sometimes we lose control of them completely and they just sort of turn into something else.
[44:42.110 --> 44:48.910]  But, again, if you're interested in a 2600 meeting first Friday of the month, go to 2600.com slash meetings and you can learn all about them.
[44:48.990 --> 44:49.770]  Maybe start your own.
[44:49.990 --> 44:52.530]  We try not to have too many that are close to each other.
[44:52.930 --> 44:54.950]  The idea is that it only happens once a month.
[44:54.950 --> 44:59.550]  So, if one is 20 miles away, travel 20 miles one day a month and meet some new people.
[44:59.830 --> 45:02.170]  And then there's somebody there telling you that you're doing it wrong.
[45:02.790 --> 45:03.910]  Well, yeah, there's that too.
[45:04.010 --> 45:05.070]  You get a fair sense.
[45:05.510 --> 45:08.410]  Okay, 212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[45:08.450 --> 45:09.170]  We have some calls.
[45:09.290 --> 45:15.130]  And, of course, because of the way the phone system operates after a couple of rings, you get transferred or disconnected.
[45:15.130 --> 45:17.190]  So, please call back those people who were calling in just now.
[45:17.330 --> 45:19.190]  Sorry that we were babbling for a while.
[45:19.310 --> 45:20.950]  212-209-2900.
[45:21.590 --> 45:25.290]  Would anybody like to start a topic that I'll interrupt you because the phone will start ringing?
[45:25.370 --> 45:25.930]  Okay, go ahead.
[45:25.990 --> 45:26.490]  I'm going to interrupt you.
[45:26.570 --> 45:29.330]  I want to remind people to bring a computer to Hope.
[45:30.290 --> 45:32.170]  We're going to make sure that there's a network.
[45:32.390 --> 45:32.970]  Don't we have one?
[45:33.670 --> 45:34.870]  No, we have one.
[45:35.070 --> 45:38.170]  We've got the old Zenith, I think.
[45:38.590 --> 45:39.530]  That'll do for us.
[45:39.610 --> 45:40.170]  That's all we need.
[45:40.270 --> 45:45.070]  But if you would like to be comfortable, bring your own computer or phone or whatever.
[45:45.070 --> 45:48.250]  And we'll have at least a very fast local network.
[45:48.250 --> 45:56.830]  And we're trying to have a very good, high-quality network for outward traffic to the rest of the internet.
[45:57.090 --> 45:59.230]  So, bring a server if you want.
[45:59.370 --> 46:01.050]  Bring all kinds of equipment.
[46:01.050 --> 46:08.210]  If you have a really massive 3D file of a pony that you want to transfer back to your house, bring that file and you can use our network.
[46:08.210 --> 46:11.830]  And again, if you want to be part of the network team, email volunteers at hope.net.
[46:11.830 --> 46:14.190]  If there's something perhaps you can offer, a connection you might have.
[46:14.310 --> 46:14.890]  No pun intended.
[46:15.210 --> 46:15.950]  Let's take some phone calls.
[46:16.030 --> 46:16.390]  Good evening.
[46:16.790 --> 46:17.610]  You're on Off the Hook.
[46:18.190 --> 46:18.890]  Hey, what's up?
[46:18.950 --> 46:20.490]  Is this Off the Hook?
[46:20.650 --> 46:21.210]  This is Off the Hook.
[46:21.230 --> 46:21.790]  You're on the air.
[46:23.950 --> 46:33.450]  Just calling to say, just in case anybody's interested, there's, what's it called, 10 Media has an intern position open in New York City if anyone's looking to do some IRL trolling.
[46:35.630 --> 46:36.270]  Thank you.
[46:36.390 --> 46:37.370]  Thank you for that.
[46:38.210 --> 46:42.990]  And, of course, that refers to the company that owes us a ton of money, owes $2,600 a ton of money.
[46:44.850 --> 46:46.510]  Yeah, they're hiring all over the place.
[46:46.630 --> 46:47.170]  Isn't that something?
[46:47.390 --> 46:50.390]  Yeah, if it's an internship, you can join the ranks of people who haven't been paid by them.
[46:51.690 --> 46:52.010]  Wow.
[46:52.210 --> 46:53.310]  Okay, let's take another phone call.
[46:54.170 --> 46:54.830]  And good evening.
[46:54.990 --> 46:55.810]  You're on Off the Hook.
[46:57.250 --> 46:57.710]  Go ahead.
[46:57.770 --> 46:58.170]  Speak up.
[46:59.190 --> 46:59.850]  Is anybody there?
[47:01.210 --> 47:01.650]  Nobody's there.
[47:01.770 --> 47:03.570]  Okay, well, let's try this one over here then.
[47:03.990 --> 47:04.490]  Good evening.
[47:04.590 --> 47:05.150]  You're on Off the Hook.
[47:05.250 --> 47:05.570]  Go ahead.
[47:06.450 --> 47:06.990]  Yes, hi.
[47:06.990 --> 47:10.490]  Hi, I was just calling with some questions regarding the Hope Conference in New York City.
[47:10.630 --> 47:11.750]  Well, you're talking to the right people.
[47:11.850 --> 47:12.290]  Go right ahead.
[47:12.870 --> 47:21.990]  Diesel, I was curious, Sunday-wise, if there's a rough time when everything wraps up as far as so I can get a train out and be ready for the Monday-type scenario.
[47:22.230 --> 47:22.690]  Well, yeah.
[47:22.690 --> 47:27.470]  We just suggest that you don't leave too early because there's plenty going on all the way up until about 6, 7 o'clock.
[47:27.610 --> 47:29.130]  Actually, 7 o'clock is the closing ceremonies.
[47:29.950 --> 47:32.950]  But if you have to leave before then, we're right across the street from Penn Station.
[47:33.070 --> 47:34.270]  That's where all the trains come.
[47:35.290 --> 47:36.670]  Where would you be heading from?
[47:38.790 --> 47:40.130]  Probably upstate, around Buffalo.
[47:40.570 --> 47:40.890]  Okay.
[47:41.230 --> 47:43.650]  Well, actually, I don't know how frequent Buffalo trains are.
[47:44.670 --> 47:46.810]  That might take a couple of days with Amtrak.
[47:48.270 --> 47:50.150]  But you're in the right place for that, certainly.
[47:50.270 --> 47:52.570]  Unless it's not Grand Central that goes to Buffalo, is it?
[47:52.750 --> 47:54.070]  Yeah, I should be up to 27, and that sounds good.
[47:54.210 --> 47:58.070]  I think they said the distance is about 6 to 8 hours or something.
[47:58.430 --> 47:59.850]  The distance or the time?
[47:59.970 --> 48:01.850]  Because in Amtrak world, that doesn't necessarily...
[48:01.850 --> 48:03.710]  Yeah, the time on Amtrak is about that.
[48:03.870 --> 48:04.170]  Okay.
[48:04.370 --> 48:06.390]  Well, then that might be a good deal.
[48:06.470 --> 48:09.150]  But definitely, yeah, definitely come down, and you'll have a blast.
[48:09.770 --> 48:10.130]  Excellent.
[48:10.270 --> 48:10.770]  I'm looking forward.
[48:10.930 --> 48:11.270]  Thank you.
[48:13.650 --> 48:19.810]  For people who do want to stay a little longer, that afterwards, it's great to have as many people as possible helping us with the cleanup.
[48:20.150 --> 48:22.110]  Again, another thing that's impossible.
[48:22.370 --> 48:25.650]  People always tell us, you can't possibly have a conference in the middle of Manhattan.
[48:26.250 --> 48:28.590]  It's just, you wouldn't be able to pull that off.
[48:28.710 --> 48:30.170]  And this is the 10th time we've done it.
[48:30.630 --> 48:31.190]  Cleaning up.
[48:31.310 --> 48:34.590]  Yeah, you can't possibly clean up something of this magnitude.
[48:34.910 --> 48:41.590]  Well, when you have 102 really dedicated volunteers that are hackers, there's nothing you can't do.
[48:41.730 --> 48:42.750]  There's nothing you can't do.
[48:42.750 --> 48:48.450]  And that's, we depend on these people to help make hope a success and something that we want to keep doing every couple of years.
[48:49.130 --> 48:49.510]  All right.
[48:49.570 --> 48:50.250]  Let's take another phone call.
[48:50.530 --> 48:53.030]  Are we still swabbing for DNA for the cleanup?
[48:53.130 --> 48:53.810]  No, we're not doing that.
[48:53.930 --> 48:54.290]  Good evening.
[48:54.390 --> 48:54.850]  You're on off the hook.
[48:54.890 --> 48:55.130]  Go ahead.
[48:57.050 --> 48:59.090]  Oh, see, you scared them, Kyle.
[48:59.450 --> 49:02.610]  That DNA remark really makes people nervous.
[49:02.610 --> 49:04.430]  Well, we like to track our cleanup moments.
[49:04.450 --> 49:06.370]  We don't track anybody of all...
[49:06.370 --> 49:08.450]  We can't say that of everybody else out there.
[49:08.550 --> 49:10.290]  There probably is all sorts of tracking going on.
[49:11.670 --> 49:14.330]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[49:14.450 --> 49:16.190]  It's off the hook here on WBAI.
[49:16.330 --> 49:20.710]  We're on for another 10 minutes or so talking about the upcoming HOPE conference.
[49:21.650 --> 49:25.890]  I think we only have two more shows before it actually happens.
[49:26.590 --> 49:28.310]  So we're relatively calm now.
[49:28.490 --> 49:30.310]  But I don't know how much longer we can stay calm.
[49:31.290 --> 49:33.610]  Yeah, we're the only calm before this storm.
[49:34.570 --> 49:35.830]  I don't know what you guys are talking about.
[49:35.830 --> 49:38.510]  That sounds like a challenge, but I'm not sure what the challenge is.
[49:39.290 --> 49:40.330]  212-209-2900.
[49:40.390 --> 49:40.610]  Good evening.
[49:40.730 --> 49:41.250]  You're on off the hook.
[49:43.530 --> 49:44.450]  Did you hang up again?
[49:44.550 --> 49:45.510]  This person keeps hanging up.
[49:45.610 --> 49:46.090]  Let's try this one.
[49:46.150 --> 49:46.390]  Good evening.
[49:46.530 --> 49:47.190]  You're on off the hook.
[49:47.570 --> 49:48.070]  Go ahead.
[49:48.830 --> 49:49.150]  Hi.
[49:49.230 --> 49:49.750]  How are you today?
[49:49.750 --> 49:49.890]  Hi.
[49:49.890 --> 49:50.250]  Hi.
[49:50.390 --> 49:50.730]  Pretty good.
[49:50.910 --> 49:51.430]  What's on your mind?
[49:52.130 --> 50:03.530]  I thought I had heard in one of the recent shows that you guys had seen a driver take a Toyota Corolla and make the lights go on and off, the wheel turn, a bunch of things like this.
[50:06.130 --> 50:07.070]  Do you remember that?
[50:07.150 --> 50:09.090]  Or is that a different show I must have been listening to?
[50:09.330 --> 50:10.190]  Do you remember that?
[50:10.390 --> 50:12.490]  I was the personal computer show after us.
[50:12.650 --> 50:13.530]  How do you know that, Bernie?
[50:13.650 --> 50:14.630]  You listen to the personal computer show.
[50:14.710 --> 50:15.470]  I happen to be listening.
[50:15.590 --> 50:16.450]  I do listen to the personal computer show.
[50:16.450 --> 50:17.510]  We listen to other shows.
[50:17.650 --> 50:18.470]  Isn't that amazing?
[50:18.830 --> 50:20.130]  Well, you should too, listeners.
[50:20.290 --> 50:20.810]  Listen to other shows.
[50:20.850 --> 50:22.610]  And this listener apparently was listening to that show.
[50:22.750 --> 50:26.970]  So call them after 8 o'clock, and I'm sure they can tell you all about that.
[50:27.410 --> 50:28.510]  I think it was last week.
[50:28.690 --> 50:32.950]  They were talking about vehicle systems being vulnerable to attacks and stuff like that.
[50:32.990 --> 50:35.230]  And we've written about that a fair amount in the magazine, too.
[50:36.030 --> 50:39.770]  People going through side mirrors and using channel changers and stuff.
[50:40.270 --> 50:40.610]  Wow.
[50:40.610 --> 50:42.970]  I see we all listen to different programs here on WBAI.
[50:43.270 --> 50:44.210]  Let's take another phone call.
[50:44.290 --> 50:44.590]  Good evening.
[50:44.690 --> 50:45.450]  You're on Off the Hook.
[50:45.870 --> 50:46.450]  Hey, hi.
[50:46.530 --> 50:46.850]  How are you?
[50:47.050 --> 50:47.290]  Okay.
[50:47.290 --> 50:47.910]  What's on your mind?
[50:49.270 --> 50:52.350]  You're going to be covering anything with the smart meters at the Hope?
[50:52.650 --> 50:55.610]  You know, because it uses cell phone technology and all that.
[50:55.610 --> 50:59.550]  I'm sure it's going to come up in various talks about things like that.
[50:59.930 --> 51:00.410]  Yes.
[51:00.690 --> 51:00.970]  Yeah.
[51:01.210 --> 51:04.450]  Because what I'm experiencing now, I have a 220 air condition.
[51:04.450 --> 51:08.550]  I think it's 12,000 or maybe even...
[51:08.550 --> 51:10.970]  But anyway, I put the energy saver on.
[51:11.030 --> 51:12.590]  It's not working like it used to at all.
[51:12.710 --> 51:15.450]  It doesn't go into that and function correctly.
[51:15.770 --> 51:20.630]  So I can't save energy, you know, or whatever, like the way it used to work.
[51:20.630 --> 51:23.510]  Is this one of the Wi-Fi enabled ones that they're starting to distribute?
[51:23.510 --> 51:24.190]  No, no.
[51:24.590 --> 51:26.690]  Yeah, that's the smart meter technology.
[51:26.690 --> 51:28.310]  That's the whole thing, yeah.
[51:28.630 --> 51:29.730]  It's supposed to work together.
[51:30.110 --> 51:34.370]  Actually, I think it's actually using a different wireless technology called Zigbee.
[51:34.770 --> 51:36.350]  In any case, they are vulnerable.
[51:36.630 --> 51:38.730]  And the thing I'm concerned about is these smart meters.
[51:38.910 --> 51:40.570]  They don't cause cancer and all that other nonsense.
[51:40.610 --> 51:48.290]  But it allows the giant utility company and anybody they share their information with to know when you come and go.
[51:48.450 --> 51:50.150]  They know when you come and get your lights on.
[51:50.150 --> 51:50.550]  Yeah.
[51:50.710 --> 51:54.750]  And when you turn on your hot water heater in the morning from using hot water...
[51:54.750 --> 51:56.790]  I mean, all this stuff is like recorded and logged.
[51:57.490 --> 51:58.730]  And I think it's spooky.
[51:58.750 --> 51:59.610]  Sent to Facebook.
[52:00.030 --> 52:04.290]  And I think the power company can cut down, you know, instead of...
[52:04.830 --> 52:08.150]  You know, remember they said brownouts and then leads to blackouts.
[52:08.290 --> 52:11.370]  I think what they can do with these things is send signals out.
[52:11.510 --> 52:15.070]  And no matter what, how many appliances you use, they're just going to cut your power down.
[52:15.070 --> 52:28.890]  Oh, and if you don't pay your bill, instead of actually sending a person out to cut off your electric power, they can just flip a switch or just type a one instead of a zero on a computer screen back at their offices, and you have no electricity.
[52:29.170 --> 52:30.990]  Now, what could possibly go wrong with that?
[52:31.410 --> 52:31.950]  I know.
[52:32.270 --> 52:33.570]  Well, you guys carry on.
[52:33.650 --> 52:34.410]  I'm getting motivated.
[52:34.410 --> 52:39.890]  I think for the first time, I'm going to come and volunteer, and then I'm going to start attending the meetings, too, maybe 2600.
[52:39.890 --> 52:40.690]  Please do.
[52:40.810 --> 52:46.130]  And if you get your hands on any kind of meter technology, it's something people are really interested in.
[52:46.210 --> 52:47.150]  I believe Bernie was right.
[52:47.150 --> 52:49.690]  It is Zigbee that the new ones are going to be using.
[52:49.950 --> 52:55.650]  But there's lots of talks around those protocols, and also just home automation in general is a big topic with hackers.
[52:55.930 --> 53:00.030]  So if you get your hands on a meter and you bring a piece of hardware around, I'm sure somebody could tell you what it is.
[53:00.510 --> 53:00.910]  Okay.
[53:01.150 --> 53:01.470]  Thanks.
[53:01.690 --> 53:02.090]  Thanks.
[53:02.310 --> 53:07.730]  And just another example of one of the many things that go on at the Hope Conference as far as discussion topics.
[53:08.770 --> 53:11.070]  There are four trains a day to Buffalo.
[53:11.250 --> 53:12.490]  The last one leaves at 310.
[53:13.170 --> 53:13.490]  Okay.
[53:13.670 --> 53:15.050]  And you look on Sunday, I assume.
[53:15.170 --> 53:15.370]  Yeah, yeah.
[53:15.490 --> 53:15.730]  Okay.
[53:15.850 --> 53:16.870]  Sorry, 340.
[53:17.230 --> 53:17.310]  340.
[53:17.310 --> 53:19.190]  So you can see a little bit of the 3 o'clock talk.
[53:19.190 --> 53:19.970]  That's too early, though.
[53:20.110 --> 53:21.810]  They should have one leaves later than that.
[53:21.830 --> 53:23.870]  I agree, but I don't run Amtrak.
[53:24.310 --> 53:25.250]  Night train to Buffalo.
[53:25.410 --> 53:25.930]  Come on, Amtrak.
[53:25.950 --> 53:28.890]  I mean, this is the night train to Chicago, so it does go all night.
[53:28.910 --> 53:31.790]  But if you live in Buffalo, you probably want to get off in Buffalo.
[53:31.890 --> 53:33.770]  You're saying if you go to Chicago, you have to go by way of Buffalo?
[53:34.370 --> 53:34.650]  Yeah.
[53:34.650 --> 53:38.670]  Look, Amtrak does a lot of things, many of them not so well.
[53:38.790 --> 53:40.450]  That's how you do the Empire Builder route.
[53:40.710 --> 53:42.350]  It goes through Buffalo every time.
[53:42.570 --> 53:42.850]  Wow.
[53:43.590 --> 53:43.890]  Okay.
[53:43.990 --> 53:47.490]  Well, somebody needs to teach them a geography lesson or build some new rail or something like that.
[53:47.610 --> 53:48.870]  But yeah.
[53:49.030 --> 53:49.170]  Okay.
[53:49.230 --> 53:52.030]  See, when I went out west, I went via Washington, D.C.
[53:52.130 --> 53:53.990]  So I went up a different way to Chicago.
[53:53.990 --> 53:54.890]  Don't do that from New York.
[53:55.050 --> 53:55.410]  Well, no.
[53:55.430 --> 53:56.370]  I did that from New York.
[53:56.470 --> 53:58.270]  It got me to visit Washington, D.C.
[53:58.290 --> 53:59.230]  I thought that was kind of cool.
[53:59.430 --> 54:01.310]  Yeah, but you started in Washington, D.C.
[54:01.430 --> 54:01.710]  Uh-huh.
[54:01.710 --> 54:02.850]  And I didn't have to go to Buffalo.
[54:03.050 --> 54:03.830]  After being in New York.
[54:03.930 --> 54:04.850]  What's wrong with Buffalo?
[54:04.930 --> 54:06.110]  I don't want to diss Buffalo.
[54:06.350 --> 54:08.490]  I'm just saying I didn't want to go to Buffalo then.
[54:09.130 --> 54:10.910]  Somebody like Canada and...
[54:10.910 --> 54:12.030]  I know where it is.
[54:12.150 --> 54:15.490]  This is the Lakeshore Limited, so probably it goes along some lakeshores.
[54:15.490 --> 54:15.770]  And it's very limited.
[54:15.910 --> 54:16.510]  That's the problem.
[54:16.650 --> 54:17.770]  We need something that's unlimited.
[54:18.090 --> 54:18.490]  So anyway.
[54:18.690 --> 54:19.810]  Any more calls out there?
[54:19.910 --> 54:20.930]  We only have about a minute left.
[54:21.010 --> 54:22.730]  212-209-2900.
[54:22.730 --> 54:26.610]  Anyone have any last-minute things they want to share with folks?
[54:27.450 --> 54:28.590]  Hope Conference coming up.
[54:28.670 --> 54:29.770]  X.hope.net.
[54:30.810 --> 54:34.310]  Pre-registration will be closing probably in the next week or so.
[54:34.630 --> 54:36.130]  We have to get around to doing that.
[54:36.550 --> 54:38.450]  We expect a lot of people to show up this year.
[54:38.830 --> 54:42.630]  And the schedule will be all over the place.
[54:42.990 --> 54:46.290]  You'll see that on the website and probably a number of other places as well.
[54:46.450 --> 54:49.390]  We have more media showing up to this thing than ever before.
[54:49.390 --> 54:58.030]  It's unbelievable, words really getting out, that this thing is relevant, interesting, and likely to change society in one form or another.
[54:58.310 --> 55:00.270]  Let me see if I can get this one last call in.
[55:00.330 --> 55:01.410]  Hopefully it's not the guy who keeps hanging up.
[55:01.410 --> 55:01.750]  Good evening.
[55:01.910 --> 55:02.570]  You're on Off the Hook.
[55:02.770 --> 55:03.410]  Oh, hi.
[55:03.510 --> 55:03.690]  Yes.
[55:03.830 --> 55:04.950]  Something just occurred to me.
[55:05.030 --> 55:07.750]  I noticed that you didn't get a lot of calls just now.
[55:07.870 --> 55:08.670]  I mean, you only took a few.
[55:08.810 --> 55:10.150]  But they were all men.
[55:10.150 --> 55:16.590]  And it occurred to me to ask, what percentage of women are hackers, would you say?
[55:16.790 --> 55:18.250]  Or are they mostly men?
[55:19.410 --> 55:21.470]  Well, they definitely are mostly men.
[55:21.690 --> 55:29.790]  And I'm happy to say in our conference program, we have a much better ratio of what you might usually see in technology-based events.
[55:30.370 --> 55:34.810]  And that's something that we're all conscious of and all trying to improve.
[55:35.270 --> 55:36.270]  But why do you think that is?
[55:36.430 --> 55:38.810]  Do you think women are less interested in hacking?
[55:38.810 --> 55:46.130]  I think you could go into society many, many levels and trace that back for decades, if not centuries.
[55:46.470 --> 55:46.890]  Centuries and eons.
[55:47.050 --> 55:47.250]  Yeah.
[55:47.250 --> 55:50.230]  It's something that we have to keep working on and be conscious of.
[55:50.390 --> 55:53.310]  And I think we're off to a good start.
[55:53.490 --> 55:55.230]  Why all the calls are coming in now, though?
[55:55.470 --> 55:57.050]  I'd love to talk about this for another hour.
[55:57.170 --> 55:59.530]  Maybe we can start the next show and talk about this.
[55:59.570 --> 55:59.770]  Okay, thank you.
[55:59.950 --> 56:00.510]  Thanks for your call.
[56:00.690 --> 56:00.870]  Okay.
[56:00.870 --> 56:03.030]  That speaks to it being a really huge issue.
[56:03.250 --> 56:04.210]  And you can look back.
[56:04.450 --> 56:12.830]  We've done this with naming of our speaking rooms a lot and referring to history because there are a lot of women involved in the development of technology and computing.
[56:13.030 --> 56:13.430]  Absolutely.
[56:13.650 --> 56:13.910]  Absolutely.
[56:14.670 --> 56:15.230]  All right.
[56:15.270 --> 56:16.250]  We are out of time.
[56:16.390 --> 56:19.690]  You can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[56:21.590 --> 56:22.490]  We'll see you next week.
[56:22.630 --> 56:23.110]  Have a good night.
[56:51.990 --> 56:53.090]  We'll see you next week.
[56:59.030 --> 57:03.610]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:05.530 --> 57:09.650]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:12.310 --> 57:15.330]  Now your cues for being a good man.
[57:15.770 --> 57:18.090]  Take your punch, which is the law of the land.
[57:18.810 --> 57:21.670]  Now let this be a lesson to you.
[57:21.670 --> 57:24.410]  Rootie, I'm talking to you.
[57:24.590 --> 57:28.210]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[57:30.030 --> 57:34.370]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[58:06.620 --> 58:11.360]  Yes, it's you that I'm talking to.
[58:13.140 --> 58:17.500]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[58:18.640 --> 58:19.600]  Bring it up, bring it up.
[58:19.600 --> 58:22.880]  You going around causing disturbances.
[58:23.440 --> 58:25.900]  Now did you know you could never win?
[58:26.060 --> 58:26.840]  But I tried.
[58:27.180 --> 58:28.940]  Your family, they were running around.
[58:29.240 --> 58:32.040]  Trying to stop you from going down.
[58:32.160 --> 58:35.880]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[58:37.900 --> 58:42.020]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[58:43.600 --> 58:48.180]  Yes, it's you that I'm talking to.
[58:50.200 --> 58:54.300]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[58:55.960 --> 59:00.460]  Yes, it's you, you, you that I'm talking to.
[59:02.460 --> 59:06.560]  It's you that I'm talking to.
[59:14.050 --> 59:16.910]  We're sisters of the joy of resistance.
[59:17.570 --> 59:22.290]  The category of sex almost didn't make it into the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
[59:22.730 --> 59:25.070]  Its inclusion was thought by many to be a fluke.