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[00:38.170 --> 00:39.160]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:39.340 --> 00:40.340]  Time for Off the Hook.
[02:26.390 --> 02:28.170]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:28.290 --> 02:29.510]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:29.610 --> 02:31.670]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:31.670 --> 02:33.250]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:33.530 --> 02:34.030]  Good evening.
[02:34.170 --> 02:34.690]  Happy Wednesday.
[02:34.870 --> 02:35.170]  Thank you.
[02:35.270 --> 02:35.530]  Rob T.
[02:35.790 --> 02:36.270]  Firefly.
[02:36.510 --> 02:36.910]  Good evening.
[02:37.150 --> 02:37.430]  Kyle.
[02:38.030 --> 02:38.330]  Hola.
[02:38.970 --> 02:40.170]  And Bernie S.
[02:40.550 --> 02:41.690]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:42.110 --> 02:44.410]  Well, today was an interesting day.
[02:44.810 --> 02:48.570]  I don't know if you've tried to get to certain websites, but you might have had some difficulty.
[02:48.570 --> 02:54.170]  You might have had some little spinning dials that didn't quite resolve.
[02:54.250 --> 02:55.250]  Actually, they did resolve.
[02:55.670 --> 03:01.410]  What I expected to find when I heard about this, this is part of the fight for the future, net neutrality, all that.
[03:02.010 --> 03:06.010]  I heard that Netflix was going to have simply a spinning wheel on the front page.
[03:06.490 --> 03:13.730]  And I just, I figured, wow, that's really big of them to simply cut off all of their customers and not give them any of the content they paid for.
[03:13.730 --> 03:16.850]  But no, in actuality, they have the spinning wheel just sort of on the side.
[03:17.190 --> 03:21.450]  And that's part of a public outcry against the U.S.
[03:21.590 --> 03:24.890]  cable company's attempted power grab.
[03:25.010 --> 03:26.410]  It's called the spinning wheel of death.
[03:26.790 --> 03:30.910]  And from this article in The Guardian explains, we all hate it.
[03:31.130 --> 03:33.290]  But you may be seeing a lot of it on the Internet today.
[03:33.290 --> 03:37.070]  And that's because today is the Internet slowdown.
[03:37.410 --> 03:39.490]  Have we been participating in the Internet slowdown?
[03:39.750 --> 03:40.150]  Anyone?
[03:42.290 --> 03:43.390]  Yes, obviously you have.
[03:43.810 --> 03:45.730]  I'm just going to speak very slowly today.
[03:46.870 --> 03:48.990]  I haven't really been on the Internet that much today.
[03:49.010 --> 03:51.250]  So I haven't had a chance to enjoy the slowdown.
[03:51.370 --> 03:57.810]  But the point is that the Internet will get slow if the net neutrality debate is lost.
[03:58.550 --> 04:03.570]  And basically companies will be able to put you on a crowded highway instead of the fast superhighway.
[04:03.630 --> 04:04.370]  Unless you pay more.
[04:04.530 --> 04:06.050]  If you pay more, hey, everything's okay.
[04:06.590 --> 04:12.470]  And if you don't cross them in any way, if you don't go to sites they don't like, things will go smoothly for you.
[04:13.770 --> 04:14.670]  So, I don't know.
[04:14.930 --> 04:17.510]  I mean, just to be clear, it's not you, the consumer, who can pay more.
[04:17.610 --> 04:19.010]  That would be, you know, one thing.
[04:19.010 --> 04:27.530]  But it's going to be differentiation amongst different content providers or websites you might want to visit, some of which don't like to think of themselves as content providers.
[04:27.530 --> 04:35.410]  And it creates a class system with the nature of routing on the Internet, which gives priority to other people.
[04:35.530 --> 04:42.570]  And it sort of breaks the whole way that routing was set up originally when the Internet was first getting started.
[04:43.930 --> 04:44.530]  Emmanuel.
[04:44.530 --> 04:44.630]  Emmanuel.
[04:44.710 --> 04:45.170]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[04:45.850 --> 04:48.690]  It reminds me of the book 1984 by George...
[04:48.690 --> 05:01.350]  Oh, Animal Farm by George Orwell, where the dictatorial pigs were saying that all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
[05:01.610 --> 05:01.950]  Yes.
[05:02.530 --> 05:04.650]  Because this is what this amounts to here.
[05:04.810 --> 05:09.410]  All the traffic will be routed equally, except some will be routed more equally than others.
[05:09.590 --> 05:11.830]  In other words, the others get slowed down.
[05:11.830 --> 05:13.610]  Four legs good, two legs better.
[05:13.910 --> 05:14.510]  That's right.
[05:14.710 --> 05:15.050]  All right.
[05:15.450 --> 05:30.030]  And if they really, truly want that, why don't they just get some of their own networks and build something on top or parallel to the existing network and not disrupt the freedom and free routing of people that enjoy the public Internet as it is?
[05:30.850 --> 05:32.090]  Well, go ahead, Rob.
[05:32.590 --> 05:35.290]  Well, and to be sure, they want to charge...
[05:35.290 --> 05:36.270]  Basically, they want to double dip.
[05:36.390 --> 05:43.170]  They want to charge the publishers of content when the recipients of the content are already paying for their Internet accounts, their Internet access.
[05:43.970 --> 05:46.030]  So basically, the model that the...
[05:46.030 --> 05:49.870]  Since the 20 years or so, we've had the Internet in public mainstream use.
[05:50.750 --> 05:54.810]  The people have paid for their net connections and therefore have been able to access the net.
[05:55.010 --> 05:55.470]  That's it.
[05:55.530 --> 06:01.570]  In general, you were able to access what you wanted without anyone getting in between you.
[06:01.570 --> 06:06.210]  But they want to charge the people who are publishing individual sites who are using...
[06:06.210 --> 06:09.370]  Who are basically making the net interesting to use in the first place.
[06:09.950 --> 06:10.770]  So, yeah.
[06:11.630 --> 06:14.970]  Some of us don't feel like we should have to accede to that double dipping.
[06:15.190 --> 06:23.470]  And this is an extension of a lot of encroachments on the concept of bandwidth and Internet being like a utility.
[06:24.010 --> 06:25.970]  You've seen this in a lot of ways with...
[06:25.970 --> 06:38.330]  Well, with wireless, it's a little different, but tiering of data packages and sort of walled garden, the slow freeing up of data on a handset.
[06:38.330 --> 06:39.350]  It took quite a while.
[06:39.350 --> 06:44.270]  I remember when they had like media nets and different things on the early GPRS-enabled handsets.
[06:45.970 --> 06:49.170]  And also just tiering and...
[06:49.970 --> 06:51.650]  What was the other thing I was thinking of?
[06:54.310 --> 07:02.530]  It'll come back to me, but just this concept of not getting just this free open Internet, but perhaps...
[07:02.530 --> 07:08.970]  Oh, I would say limiting and throttling of certain sites or limiting and creating sort of...
[07:09.590 --> 07:14.090]  Well, we see it like sites being forbidden, you know, firewall rules, these kinds of things.
[07:14.290 --> 07:22.810]  They give you a certain kind of the Internet as opposed to what Rob was saying, which is like a free and open, well, utility, as it were.
[07:22.810 --> 07:32.890]  So, Rob, I think you might have just slightly misspoken, and I think you know this, but maybe some of our listeners might not, that the people who make websites already pay to be on the Internet.
[07:33.330 --> 07:34.270]  Maybe that's fair.
[07:34.710 --> 07:38.790]  You pay to be on the Internet, they pay to be on the Internet, so you can be connected to.
[07:39.130 --> 07:49.470]  But what a lot of the large ISPs want is that the major content provider should not just pay their ISPs, but should pay your ISP as well.
[07:49.610 --> 07:52.230]  And that's what's really kind of perverse about all this.
[07:53.090 --> 08:00.490]  And to Kyle's earlier point that maybe they should just build, you know, a sort of separate network, that's what the cable companies want to do.
[08:01.210 --> 08:09.570]  They want to choose what should be on the Internet and what should be hard to get to on the Internet and what should not be on the Internet.
[08:09.870 --> 08:22.210]  And, you know, maybe in some parallel universe where there was competition and you could choose between cable company A that gave you the whole Internet And Cable Company B that gave you part of the internet, that might be okay.
[08:22.810 --> 08:24.770]  But we don't have that in the United States.
[08:25.070 --> 08:30.410]  Most people have, at most, one or two choices for broadband in their home.
[08:30.690 --> 08:38.810]  And those choices all want to slow down the internet for websites that don't pay their bribes.
[08:39.030 --> 08:43.270]  And so it's not like you can, you know, choose.
[08:43.270 --> 08:55.630]  So if you want to be a teleco and you want to be a monopoly, then my view is that you should be regulated like a monopoly and have common carrier status, as it's called.
[08:55.750 --> 08:58.430]  And there's all these, like, crazy legal terms.
[08:58.810 --> 09:06.290]  But in my view, and in the view of a lot of the people, if you want to be the only game in town, you have to be the fair game in town.
[09:06.550 --> 09:08.450]  And I think that's totally reasonable.
[09:08.450 --> 09:08.970]  Emmanuel.
[09:09.330 --> 09:10.250]  Yes, go ahead, Larry.
[09:10.570 --> 09:21.950]  This protection racket, as Mike was just alluding to, that the internet service providers are trying to get legalized.
[09:22.270 --> 09:26.510]  So they would say, hey, that's a nice content site you have there.
[09:26.510 --> 09:32.230]  Be a shame if we were to slow down and your users wouldn't be able to use your services.
[09:33.410 --> 09:45.970]  If anybody believes that charging, that the ISP is charging these content providers fees to handle the traffic isn't going to get passed down to consumers.
[09:46.170 --> 09:47.850]  They're deluding themselves.
[09:48.090 --> 09:56.610]  And if any politician say this isn't going to increase your cost, they are lying to you because it's going to get passed down to the consumer.
[09:56.610 --> 09:57.590]  It always does.
[09:57.590 --> 10:09.050]  And to say that you're slowing down connections that are already, from a world-like global perspective, pretty darn slow to start with is hilarious.
[10:09.370 --> 10:10.090]  I mean, it's laughable.
[10:10.350 --> 10:14.490]  And what I meant really with building their own networks, I mean, they already co-locate.
[10:14.490 --> 10:16.570]  I know Netflix, I know I've read an article.
[10:16.710 --> 10:30.990]  They already, like, locate servers for caching and other things away from their locations and closer to, like, points of presence for, like, major communities where a broadband might distribute from a backbone.
[10:30.990 --> 10:34.510]  They're already doing that for efficiency's sake, I'm sure.
[10:35.330 --> 10:49.770]  And it just seems like, well, if they care so much and it's so advantageous to them, why don't they lease their own lines and do that stuff separately, but without disrupting, and as Rob and you guys have said, like, protecting the internet.
[10:49.910 --> 10:51.730]  I mean, clearly the government does that.
[10:51.730 --> 11:08.350]  They have their own parallel connections, and they don't disrupt, or, well, they don't, they don't, they're capable of running their own equipment, and their meddling is kept to purely recreational purposes.
[11:08.630 --> 11:15.710]  When their stuff is concerned, they provide their own equipment, and I just, I really feel like it's an encroachment on the public internet, as we've been saying.
[11:15.710 --> 11:25.490]  Yeah, and you mentioned bringing the sort of routing toward the shortest point between two points, as that's basically, that's a basic factor of how the internet's put together.
[11:25.610 --> 11:31.370]  On a technical level, the internet was built from the ground up to route around damage, to route the most efficient way possible.
[11:31.370 --> 11:42.150]  So the internet is basically already, as it is, with network neutrality not being violated, the internet is already going to get you what you want in the fastest way possible.
[11:42.270 --> 11:43.010]  That's just how it works.
[11:43.010 --> 11:51.190]  It's a little more complicated than that, but we should be clear that network neutrality is already a thing that we don't have in some circumstances.
[11:51.670 --> 12:00.390]  Netflix has already started paying the bribes to some of the largest ISPs because they want to get their movies to people, and that's cool.
[12:00.530 --> 12:05.370]  Netflix has a business model that maybe allows them to do that, or maybe allows them to take a loss for a couple months.
[12:05.710 --> 12:09.790]  They would rather not be paying this money, as they've said, but they can afford it.
[12:09.790 --> 12:16.450]  Other people can't afford these fees and will be forced to pay them if the large telcos have their way.
[12:17.370 --> 12:34.870]  And Level 3, which is a large sort of connector of networks, has published some blog posts showing that the cable companies are deliberately slowing down the sort of interconnections that they have between Level 3 and...
[12:34.870 --> 12:43.930]  Well, they don't name names, but it's Comcast, to force people like Netflix to pay these bribes.
[12:43.930 --> 12:46.630]  So, it's already happening.
[12:46.890 --> 12:53.270]  So, the people who say, oh, they would never go after Netflix, Netflix was literally the first one they went after, and more are coming.
[12:53.390 --> 12:53.410]  Well, how are they doing this?
[12:53.410 --> 12:54.230]  How exactly are they doing it?
[12:54.290 --> 12:59.530]  If this isn't in place yet, how are they telling Netflix, you have to pay us to get this traffic to go faster?
[12:59.530 --> 12:59.570]  Sure.
[13:00.270 --> 13:03.150]  So, there's nothing... So, there's nothing in place.
[13:03.410 --> 13:09.290]  What we want to have is we want to have regulation in place that says you must maintain a neutral network.
[13:09.290 --> 13:14.670]  So, what, again, no names have been named, but it's Comcast and Time Warner.
[13:15.870 --> 13:29.770]  They are refusing to upgrade the switching equipment between them and Level 3 and many other large, you know, large business ISPs so that the data can go through fast enough.
[13:29.930 --> 13:31.030]  Unless a bribe is paid.
[13:31.130 --> 13:33.310]  But what I'm curious about is how do they phrase that?
[13:33.410 --> 13:36.290]  How do they say, oh, we can fix this if you just pay us now?
[13:36.290 --> 13:38.390]  So, they don't fix it that way.
[13:38.810 --> 13:43.210]  They don't upgrade the core network that the public can use.
[13:43.350 --> 13:47.210]  And what they do is they say, hey, Netflix, you know, that switch, it's kind of slow.
[13:47.410 --> 13:50.610]  Wouldn't you rather be on our side of the switch so that you don't have to go through it?
[13:51.650 --> 13:52.570]  And that's what they do.
[13:52.690 --> 13:56.510]  And they've already started getting away with it, and we must stop them.
[13:57.190 --> 14:01.610]  So, basically, we're already at a stage where they can get away with this.
[14:01.770 --> 14:02.850]  They are getting away with it.
[14:02.850 --> 14:03.050]  Okay.
[14:03.230 --> 14:12.290]  So, what we're advocating for, then, is for more regulations so that they can't get away with what they currently get away with, let alone the future where they want to get away with even more.
[14:12.910 --> 14:19.610]  You're saying it's bad enough as it is right now for them to be subjected to further restrictions?
[14:19.930 --> 14:20.290]  Yes.
[14:20.770 --> 14:24.930]  I'm saying that they should be... if they want to be a public utility, they should be regulated like one.
[14:25.070 --> 14:28.310]  If they don't want to be a public utility, then they should have competition.
[14:28.530 --> 14:30.050]  They can't have it both ways, in my field.
[14:30.050 --> 14:32.330]  And cable companies are not considered public utilities.
[14:33.090 --> 14:34.490]  It's super complicated.
[14:34.510 --> 14:37.790]  If I try and tell you the details off the top of my head, I'm going to get them wrong.
[14:37.930 --> 14:47.890]  But they are claiming to be in this, like, there's a telecommunications provider and an information service provider, and they're regulated very differently.
[14:48.050 --> 14:52.050]  And they're claiming to be whichever one gives them the most advantage on any given day.
[14:52.050 --> 14:56.270]  Now, is Verizon, a phone company, are they subject to the same rules and regulations?
[14:56.270 --> 14:56.830]  No.
[14:57.590 --> 15:03.310]  Sorry, Verizon Internet is not subject to the same rules and regulations as Verizon.
[15:03.410 --> 15:04.570]  Oh, that's how they get around it.
[15:04.650 --> 15:08.270]  Okay, so they basically do the old source interlink thing of splitting into two companies.
[15:08.550 --> 15:10.310]  Michael Powell, it was the guy who did that.
[15:10.810 --> 15:13.190]  Yes, Michael Powell, our good friend Michael Powell.
[15:13.530 --> 15:16.370]  Yeah, tell us some of the history of Mike there.
[15:16.370 --> 15:27.270]  Well, back during the Colonel Colin Powell, no, General Colin Powell, I've got to get the rank right, General Colin Powell's son, Michael Powell, you know, a little nepotism.
[15:27.590 --> 15:28.030]  George W.
[15:28.130 --> 15:34.310]  Bush hired him to be the, appointed him to be a commissioner of the FCC back a few administrations ago.
[15:34.310 --> 15:54.710]  And he pushed and basically had things change so that cable companies would, or I'm sorry, internet service providers were no longer, Mike can probably help clarify this for me, were no longer going to be regulated like common carriers.
[15:54.710 --> 16:02.390]  And ever since, we've seen this slippery slope into what we all feared, and it's getting worse, it's getting real.
[16:02.550 --> 16:12.170]  Look at how much they're willing to spend fighting these things instead of upgrading the network so that everything can just be routed and switched in a really balanced way to begin with.
[16:12.170 --> 16:20.450]  And the infrastructure is such that it can allow all of these things to transit in the most efficient way possible, the way it ought to be set up.
[16:20.450 --> 16:34.350]  They want to just sit on these existing connections and weasel one way or another to get these media companies that are like, you know, hot Web 2.0 companies to pay them off.
[16:34.450 --> 16:38.470]  And then they'll probably not upgrade after that anyway.
[16:38.630 --> 16:40.810]  They'll get their way, and then it'll still be slow.
[16:40.810 --> 16:42.870]  We'll still be paying through the nose.
[16:42.870 --> 16:52.730]  And they'll be extorting money out of these media companies that want better networks anyway and want to deliver content and stuff over to your handset or whatever.
[16:53.090 --> 17:08.510]  And we're just going to continue to sort of flounder in this without stepping outside of it and without building and running and demanding better infrastructure and infrastructure outside of this context.
[17:08.510 --> 17:16.990]  And it's really kind of, well, sad to see because there's so much that's possible and so much we could build that we've seen run really well.
[17:17.110 --> 17:21.830]  And I'd be really sad if people didn't see through some of these tactics.
[17:21.830 --> 17:33.070]  Well, to wrap this up from the Guardian article, net neutrality is about free speech and preventing powerful interests from discriminating against censoring, slowing down, and blocking content on the Internet.
[17:33.490 --> 17:44.450]  And hopefully the unstoppable momentum of today's Internet slowdown is just a reflection of public outcry that has been simmering since the FCC first announced its proposal to allow for a tiered, i.e.
[17:44.470 --> 17:45.610]  divided, Internet.
[17:45.610 --> 17:45.770]  Internet.
[17:46.190 --> 17:52.910]  We've bombarded them with petitions, camped out in tents on their doorstep, and, of course, John Oliver crashed their website.
[17:53.670 --> 17:55.050]  That was one of the proudest moments.
[17:55.230 --> 18:04.350]  It's been widely reported, and I've heard this before, that more than 99% of the comments that the FCC has gotten so far broadly support net neutrality.
[18:04.470 --> 18:20.530]  Now, if the FCC chooses to move ahead with a proposal that benefits cable executives while undermining public interest and public comment periods are meaningless, and the FCC exposes itself as an agency that has no legitimacy, or verifies that theory amongst some of us.
[18:21.010 --> 18:23.530]  So, basically, today is a statement.
[18:23.730 --> 18:29.130]  Today is something that kind of measures the outcry that already is out there.
[18:29.410 --> 18:30.630]  What happens tomorrow?
[18:30.810 --> 18:31.370]  What do we do?
[18:32.210 --> 18:33.090]  I don't know.
[18:33.270 --> 18:34.330]  I've got a small update.
[18:34.530 --> 18:39.690]  Fight for the Future, who has arranged today's day of protest on battleforthenet.com.
[18:39.690 --> 18:43.990]  They sent out an email a few hours ago that says the slowdown is working like magic.
[18:44.390 --> 18:55.210]  At some points, we had more than 1,000 phone calls going per minute to Congress and the White House, and the sheer volume of comments has crashed the FCC's submission system once again, which is fun.
[18:55.430 --> 18:57.910]  So, slow down the Internet and crash systems.
[18:58.490 --> 19:01.330]  We sound like one of those groups.
[19:02.070 --> 19:02.510]  Capisce?
[19:02.510 --> 19:05.810]  Yeah, but the point is, where do we go from here?
[19:05.910 --> 19:06.770]  We need a plan.
[19:06.890 --> 19:08.690]  We need to know, okay, we've done this.
[19:08.810 --> 19:10.910]  We've indicated that there's strength in numbers.
[19:11.430 --> 19:13.850]  Do we keep commenting on the FCC site?
[19:13.970 --> 19:17.070]  There's got to be a clear plan of action, and that's something that has always been...
[19:17.070 --> 19:26.050]  Obviously, go to EFF.org and see what those guys are saying, because they tend to win a lot of cases when they actually go to court and challenge things.
[19:26.190 --> 19:30.570]  But the rest of us need to know what we can do, because, yeah, there's strength in numbers.
[19:30.570 --> 19:36.170]  It might be a little disheartening, because it seems like we keep fighting this very battle time and again.
[19:36.290 --> 19:37.750]  We did it with the SOPA PIPA days.
[19:38.190 --> 19:39.210]  We're doing it with this.
[19:39.310 --> 19:42.830]  And I think the best we can hope for is that people stay angry about it.
[19:42.970 --> 19:47.350]  You know, so many causes come and go, and, you know, are a big deal one day and forgotten the next.
[19:47.590 --> 20:02.510]  And the best we can do, because even if we defeat this this time, it's just going to come back again and some other guys at some point in the near future, because those who want net neutrality to die its final death are the ones with lots of money and lots of time and lots of people working on it.
[20:02.670 --> 20:13.770]  So the best we can do is also be lots of people working on it and stay aware, stay angry about it and stay stay focused on what's what's important to not let happen.
[20:14.370 --> 20:24.910]  I also think we shouldn't pay for things that don't have our interests at all in mind and maybe build some of our own things that are there perhaps better instead of of paying for them.
[20:25.670 --> 20:28.590]  All right, that sounds like a good note to end on.
[20:28.750 --> 20:35.170]  Build our own things and communicate and talk to other people and hopefully share stories and things like that.
[20:35.250 --> 20:38.210]  And it's kind of a good lead-in to something that we want to remind people about.
[20:38.430 --> 20:44.730]  Coming up in just over a week is, if I want to guess, you know already.
[20:45.530 --> 20:46.490]  The Equinox?
[20:47.190 --> 20:47.550]  Maybe.
[20:47.770 --> 20:47.950]  Maybe.
[20:48.070 --> 20:48.490]  That's possible.
[20:48.650 --> 20:50.650]  But no, that's not what I'm thinking of.
[20:50.810 --> 20:51.890]  I'm thinking of Maker Faire.
[20:52.110 --> 20:56.750]  Maker Faire is happening again in Queens in the fall.
[20:58.130 --> 20:59.830]  And we have a call for volunteers.
[20:59.910 --> 21:09.110]  If you want to attend Maker Faire and actually get in for free, you can volunteer and learn a lot, teach a lot.
[21:09.670 --> 21:25.750]  Maker Faire is something that we try to attend every year when it comes to New York because it's just a great way to meet new people and see all kinds of cool things that are being invented by individuals, by kids, all kinds of people that appreciate the kinds of things we're talking about.
[21:26.150 --> 21:33.770]  So that happens at the Hall of Science in Queens, New York Hall of Science.
[21:33.770 --> 21:36.130]  That's right on the 7 train by the World's Fair.
[21:36.730 --> 21:50.030]  And if you go to tinyurl.com slash makerfaire-volunteer, and you spell makerfaire, M-A-K-E-R-F-A-I-R-E-dash-volunteer, all the information on how you can volunteer is there.
[21:50.150 --> 21:53.590]  And I'm told, I'm told that they need people that know how to solder.
[21:54.410 --> 21:58.650]  So I guess Mitch Altman is somewhere else in the planet right now.
[21:58.990 --> 22:02.310]  Otherwise, they would have all the knowledge they could possibly need.
[22:02.310 --> 22:08.710]  But if you know how to solder, there is definitely a use for your skills at Maker Faire.
[22:08.790 --> 22:10.790]  It's coming up, not this weekend, coming up, but the one after that.
[22:11.210 --> 22:18.030]  And, of course, more information you can find at the Maker Faire site, which, did I write that down?
[22:18.230 --> 22:22.090]  I think it's maker... yeah, makerfaire.com, without a dash.
[22:22.250 --> 22:27.910]  I believe Mitch is not attending because of Maker Faire's affiliation with DARPA, which we've discussed in the past.
[22:27.910 --> 22:38.210]  But even when he does attend, he's very... he can do the work of more than one person, but Maker Faire is on such a scale that it takes more than him to do it.
[22:38.570 --> 22:40.010]  And it gets bigger every year.
[22:40.270 --> 22:41.590]  That space is huge.
[22:42.510 --> 22:44.790]  And it's just incredible how it gets filled up.
[22:44.870 --> 22:46.810]  But it really is... it's a very healthy, positive environment.
[22:46.810 --> 22:50.790]  That's why I always encourage people to go to that.
[22:50.790 --> 23:02.650]  But... so, yeah, coming up, Maker Faire, and we'll have probably a ticket giveaway next week on this show, as we do every year, and maybe an interview with somebody at Maker Faire in general.
[23:02.750 --> 23:04.030]  Bernie, are you going to come up this year?
[23:04.670 --> 23:05.370]  I'm going to try.
[23:05.530 --> 23:07.170]  I missed it last year, but I was there the year before.
[23:07.190 --> 23:08.330]  It's always a lot of fun.
[23:08.510 --> 23:09.770]  It's just like a great big park.
[23:10.070 --> 23:13.770]  I mean, isn't it held... is it still going to be held at the old World's Fairgrounds?
[23:13.770 --> 23:13.990]  Yes.
[23:14.330 --> 23:16.230]  Not actually the World's Fairgrounds.
[23:16.250 --> 23:18.170]  That's across on the other side of the parkway.
[23:18.290 --> 23:20.410]  But the Hall of Science is a huge area.
[23:21.410 --> 23:26.930]  And you get to it very easily on the number seven train or by car, too, if you're driving in from someplace else.
[23:27.290 --> 23:28.630]  All the info is on their website.
[23:28.830 --> 23:30.210]  But, yeah, it's the same place.
[23:30.550 --> 23:30.990]  I like it.
[23:31.050 --> 23:33.870]  Lots of grass and trees and tents.
[23:34.170 --> 23:36.910]  And it's very festive and very techie.
[23:37.270 --> 23:39.590]  And you'll be with a lot of kindred spirits.
[23:39.890 --> 23:40.210]  Yeah.
[23:40.530 --> 23:43.630]  It's really... they take over basically the entire...
[23:43.770 --> 23:46.250]  including lots and some of the grassy fields.
[23:46.250 --> 23:46.810]  It's huge.
[23:46.950 --> 24:00.490]  There's tons of different villages for different things like robotics competitions and different things like a... well, like a hackerspace kind of area or like a making village with soldering and all of that.
[24:00.630 --> 24:08.710]  As well as like concessions, tons of great food and entertainment, different groups doing exhibitions and shows.
[24:08.710 --> 24:16.910]  and as well as vendors and workshops, people teaching things and kind of demoing new stuff.
[24:17.190 --> 24:25.030]  And, of course, there are sponsors and other people represented with kind of funky displays and a lot of eye-catching, really interesting stuff.
[24:25.070 --> 24:27.090]  So it's definitely worthwhile.
[24:27.410 --> 24:30.290]  Actually, I just found this on the website.
[24:30.410 --> 24:32.650]  There's that soldering thing.
[24:32.670 --> 24:33.990]  It's called Learn to Solder.
[24:33.990 --> 24:35.550]  It's the Learn to Solder booth.
[24:35.690 --> 24:45.830]  So if you look that up and fill out the form, they say Learn to Solder activity is one of the most popular at Maker Faire, soldering newbies and experienced solderers alike of all ages.
[24:45.830 --> 24:47.070]  And I mean all ages.
[24:47.070 --> 24:48.710]  We're talking five-year-old soldering.
[24:48.830 --> 24:50.110]  It's kind of a scary sight.
[24:50.590 --> 24:54.310]  They can put together their very own blinky LED rocket pin.
[24:54.730 --> 24:58.250]  And if you've been to Maker Faire, you know this tent is rocking all weekend long.
[24:59.490 --> 25:04.630]  And I see from this form that you'll actually get paid minimum wage if you volunteer there.
[25:04.730 --> 25:07.370]  So in addition to getting in, you'll actually get paid for your efforts.
[25:07.510 --> 25:12.890]  So if that's something you're interested in, if you know how to solder, then search for that on the Maker Faire site.
[25:13.630 --> 25:13.990]  Sorry.
[25:14.370 --> 25:14.830]  Go ahead, Rob.
[25:14.970 --> 25:17.110]  Something about Maker Faire people might not know.
[25:17.110 --> 25:18.770]  It's an all-ages event, as you said.
[25:18.850 --> 25:20.010]  It's a very all-ages event.
[25:20.130 --> 25:21.110]  It is great for kids.
[25:21.110 --> 25:27.750]  If you've got children of your own, if you have access to children that are not your own, bring them to Maker Faire, because they'll love it.
[25:27.850 --> 25:28.790]  You'll have a great time.
[25:29.070 --> 25:29.650]  Wait a minute.
[25:29.810 --> 25:30.830]  What did you just advocate there?
[25:31.290 --> 25:31.950]  Matching children.
[25:32.290 --> 25:32.930]  Okay, fine.
[25:33.350 --> 25:33.650]  Absolutely.
[25:34.810 --> 25:45.490]  But, yeah, bring kids to this, because there is no better time to get a kid actually interested in maker subjects, hacker subjects, all this cool stuff that you could do with technology and inventiveness and creativity.
[25:46.250 --> 25:50.690]  The Hall of Science is a great place on its own for that, but Maker Faire is just all the more awesome.
[25:50.890 --> 25:51.690]  That is the thing.
[25:51.810 --> 25:56.310]  You've touched upon something, because in all the ones I've been to, and I don't know how many there have been, what, five now?
[25:56.650 --> 25:57.170]  Something like that.
[25:57.270 --> 26:05.570]  You see kids running around, just having the time of their lives and playing with all kinds of gizmos and working on inventions as well.
[26:06.070 --> 26:09.330]  And in all that time, I've seen one kid crying.
[26:11.090 --> 26:13.610]  Crowds of kids, you'd expect more than that, but no, only one.
[26:13.730 --> 26:15.610]  And I'm not sure he was even in the right place.
[26:15.610 --> 26:17.070]  He might have been on his way someplace else.
[26:17.950 --> 26:18.890]  That's a very good point.
[26:18.990 --> 26:19.170]  Yeah.
[26:19.370 --> 26:21.050]  So MakerFaire.com, check it out there.
[26:21.290 --> 26:24.270]  And we might be there with the van.
[26:24.270 --> 26:35.270]  We're not sure, but regardless of whether or not we're there, you can be there, and hopefully we'll have ticket giveaways next week, and you can help people solder and volunteer in other ways as well.
[26:35.890 --> 26:36.290]  Okay.
[26:36.450 --> 26:39.830]  Back to breaking news of a sort.
[26:40.170 --> 26:41.430]  What's this I'm reading?
[26:41.650 --> 26:43.830]  For some reason, this story is Dateline Moscow.
[26:44.470 --> 26:47.810]  Nearly five million Gmail passwords leaked.
[26:48.210 --> 26:49.490]  Five million, guys?
[26:49.490 --> 26:49.870]  Guys, really?
[26:50.570 --> 26:51.690]  Hackers have...
[26:51.690 --> 26:56.510]  Right away, right away, this story goes off on the wrong foot.
[26:56.870 --> 26:57.850]  Why are they hackers?
[26:58.010 --> 27:00.750]  Why are they always hackers when passwords get leaked?
[27:00.930 --> 27:03.710]  If they're leaked, anybody can get them.
[27:03.830 --> 27:07.830]  It's not hard to guess a password, if that's what's going on here.
[27:07.850 --> 27:10.810]  It's not hard to trade a file with passwords in it.
[27:10.810 --> 27:15.650]  But let's look at the story and hold our noses when the H-word is used to describe.
[27:16.150 --> 27:16.770]  Go ahead.
[27:16.870 --> 27:19.490]  Just replace it with, like, Bridge Club members.
[27:19.670 --> 27:23.310]  I'd rather read it the way it's written, so people can experience the full stench of it.
[27:23.530 --> 27:23.750]  Okay.
[27:23.850 --> 27:30.450]  Hackers have stolen and published a database containing the logins and passwords of nearly five million Google accounts.
[27:30.830 --> 27:36.510]  Russian technology news source CNews.ru reported, and that's the Moscow Dateline there.
[27:36.510 --> 27:48.130]  Now, according to information provided by a user of the Bitcoin Security Online Forum, where the database was published, over 60% of the accounts corresponding to those logins can be accessed successfully.
[27:48.430 --> 27:50.890]  The database contains 4.93...
[27:50.890 --> 27:52.170]  Talk about precise numbers.
[27:52.210 --> 27:56.350]  4.93 million Google accounts from English, Russian, and Spanish users.
[27:56.810 --> 28:09.850]  This news comes just a couple of days after it came to light that over 4.6 million mail.ru accounts and over 1.25 million Yandex email boxes have also been compromised.
[28:10.210 --> 28:13.450]  Their information was also published on the Bitcoin Security Forum.
[28:13.670 --> 28:24.930]  The two Russian companies have said that the databases containing the compromised email accounts comprised mostly inactive and hacked accounts, which had been collected over a long period of time via phishing and Trojan horses.
[28:25.190 --> 28:29.090]  The internal security systems of the companies were not compromised, they said.
[28:29.090 --> 28:39.650]  With nearly 11 million email logins and passwords now floating around on the web, email providers have suggested that their users choose strong passwords and enable two-step verification.
[28:40.030 --> 28:43.510]  Well, okay, we know two-step verification can be thwarted pretty easily.
[28:45.070 --> 28:48.430]  And apparently, people are just leaving accounts lying around.
[28:48.670 --> 28:49.750]  Does this really even count?
[28:49.750 --> 29:04.790]  If these are Gmail accounts that aren't being used in the first place, or whatever other service, is it any different than somebody creating a million passwords, a million accounts on some free web server, free web email service, and using those?
[29:05.010 --> 29:07.330]  Is there really a story here?
[29:07.890 --> 29:23.550]  Well, one difference between taking even an abandoned inactive Gmail account and just creating a new one of your own is that abandoned one will have a contact list and possibly other information sitting in its mailboxes that would be of use to somebody looking to do shady things.
[29:24.290 --> 29:24.770]  Okay.
[29:24.950 --> 29:25.250]  All right.
[29:25.830 --> 29:29.890]  So people should change their passwords regularly, I guess.
[29:30.090 --> 29:31.070]  But I have...
[29:31.430 --> 29:44.490]  You know, we aim the show for a general audience, but we know that many of our listeners, you know, do work in the computer industry or the security industry or whatever, and I have a challenge to us, those of us who do that.
[29:44.490 --> 29:47.290]  But we have to fix this password problem.
[29:47.390 --> 29:51.310]  We have to come up with something better than passwords because this is just going to happen.
[29:51.490 --> 29:53.370]  It has been happening more and more often.
[29:53.510 --> 29:55.930]  It's going to continue to happen more and more often.
[29:56.270 --> 30:00.130]  And normal people, like, do not have the brain capacity.
[30:00.130 --> 30:01.730]  I do not have the brain capacity.
[30:01.850 --> 30:10.190]  Most people do not have the brain capacity to remember, like, a thousand different passwords for a thousand different sites that change every two months because their databases get leaked.
[30:10.330 --> 30:13.170]  So we have to come up with something better, and I don't know what it's going to be.
[30:13.170 --> 30:17.630]  Well, if you have a good password, a database being leaked should not contain that password.
[30:17.750 --> 30:20.130]  It should be encrypted in some form.
[30:20.230 --> 30:25.070]  Yeah, but you're on some website that you think is well implemented and it turns out not to be.
[30:25.210 --> 30:30.750]  So that website, unbeknownst to you, has your password in the clear and they have no security.
[30:30.750 --> 30:33.210]  So it got leaked and I have to change it on all the other sites.
[30:33.210 --> 30:35.290]  This is not something that normal people can do all the time.
[30:35.290 --> 30:38.290]  How about we just reveal the names of those sites that have no security whatsoever?
[30:38.650 --> 30:39.470]  I think that would be a good way.
[30:39.610 --> 30:39.630]  And then what?
[30:39.650 --> 30:41.090]  It's too late by the time we find out.
[30:41.090 --> 30:42.150]  But you don't use them anymore.
[30:42.150 --> 30:44.150]  But it's too late, is my point.
[30:44.370 --> 30:45.030]  It's too late for what?
[30:45.350 --> 30:46.250]  For your Yahoo account?
[30:46.250 --> 30:50.230]  To stop using an account, a website, after you learn that it's security is poor.
[30:50.230 --> 30:52.210]  Well, you're not using it anymore if it's been compromised.
[30:52.210 --> 30:53.770]  Someone else is using it in your name.
[30:53.870 --> 30:59.870]  But it's a good lesson to those people that are thinking of using it, not to trust those companies.
[30:59.890 --> 31:06.230]  It's also a good message for companies thinking of getting into this business that you have to have some level of security unless you want to be made a fool of.
[31:06.230 --> 31:13.850]  And it's just... I'm finding it hard to believe that there are companies out there where you just simply get a database and you have all the passwords.
[31:14.030 --> 31:18.910]  I mean, a 12-year-old kid can set up a free BSD machine that has more security than that.
[31:18.910 --> 31:21.630]  And it's really not that difficult.
[31:21.750 --> 31:25.570]  And especially after all the time that we've been talking about this, it's unforgivable.
[31:25.990 --> 31:28.350]  So I don't think that's what happened with Gmail.
[31:28.530 --> 31:31.750]  I think in Gmail's case, they were easy to guess passwords, right?
[31:31.990 --> 31:33.510]  Some of them are easy to guess passwords.
[31:33.610 --> 31:41.490]  And apparently some of them were taken from the user's computer with a key logger or some other Trojan.
[31:41.490 --> 31:48.650]  Well, the other thing to remember with all this is that sometimes people use the same password for all of their accounts, whether they're bank accounts, their email, whatever.
[31:48.990 --> 31:58.150]  So if you're good and you're targeting somebody, you can really take over their lives pretty easily if the users themselves use bad passwords.
[31:58.510 --> 32:06.050]  Now, we had CNN last week, of course, advising people, if your password is password, you might want to change those S's to dollar signs and then you'll be more secure.
[32:06.190 --> 32:06.670]  Well, guess what?
[32:06.730 --> 32:09.430]  You're not that much more secure at all, especially after they said that.
[32:09.970 --> 32:22.870]  But so there are all kinds of things that you can learn, all kinds of ways you can make yourself more secure by not using words, not using your birthday, not using your social security number, God forbid.
[32:23.750 --> 32:31.610]  One of the best I've seen is using a sentence, a sentence that you can remember and using, say, the first letter of each word of that sentence.
[32:31.750 --> 32:33.610]  It doesn't spell a word, but you can remember the sentence.
[32:33.770 --> 32:36.230]  And maybe you capitalize the second letter and not the third.
[32:36.710 --> 32:39.190]  Things like that, little things that only you would know.
[32:39.430 --> 32:46.290]  And when you get those questions, in case you forgot your password, you don't make it something like, what was my hometown when I grew up?
[32:46.370 --> 32:47.470]  It's pretty easy to figure that out.
[32:47.490 --> 32:48.390]  Or what is my name?
[32:48.870 --> 32:50.390]  You know, you can lie.
[32:50.530 --> 32:52.870]  You don't have to... What is your favorite color?
[32:53.070 --> 32:54.030]  You can say Mars.
[32:54.490 --> 32:56.530]  You know, no one's going to prosecute you for doing that.
[32:56.930 --> 32:57.810]  Do whatever you want.
[32:57.910 --> 32:59.090]  Just remember what it is you did.
[32:59.230 --> 33:00.130]  It's not difficult.
[33:00.130 --> 33:01.870]  My favorite color actually is Mars.
[33:02.130 --> 33:04.790]  But having a strong password isn't the only thing.
[33:05.030 --> 33:10.250]  You could still get your... You could still lose your... You could still lose the security of your password by other means.
[33:10.390 --> 33:14.050]  So it's not enough just to have a snazzy, innovative password.
[33:14.190 --> 33:15.270]  You have to change it regularly.
[33:15.890 --> 33:27.570]  Because then if you end up in one of these databases, if your name and password is being traded around on some forum, there's still the chance that you can change it to something else by the time somebody, a criminal, wants to do something with it.
[33:27.570 --> 33:29.090]  So, yeah, get into the habit.
[33:29.230 --> 33:30.450]  Update your passwords every so often.
[33:30.630 --> 33:32.190]  I mean, yeah, that's good advice.
[33:32.330 --> 33:34.110]  But it's... People don't follow it.
[33:34.190 --> 33:35.990]  And we know people don't follow it.
[33:36.090 --> 33:38.110]  And we have to do something better in the long run.
[33:38.370 --> 33:39.470]  Do you have any ideas, though?
[33:39.570 --> 33:40.550]  I don't, unfortunately.
[33:40.950 --> 33:41.210]  All right.
[33:41.770 --> 33:46.090]  Well, speaking of data breaches and bad security, Home Depot.
[33:46.630 --> 33:47.030]  Wow.
[33:47.670 --> 33:50.690]  You know, I've been hearing rumors about Home Depot now for several weeks.
[33:50.810 --> 33:52.430]  Why have I been hearing rumors about this?
[33:52.550 --> 33:54.130]  The story was only released this week.
[33:55.530 --> 34:00.710]  Basically, there have been all kinds of data breaches, apparently.
[34:02.910 --> 34:17.130]  Home Depot said customers who shopped at its stores as far back as April were exposed, meaning the breach extended for more than four months, including the busy summer season when we all go to Home Depot, far longer than the three-week Target breach.
[34:17.130 --> 34:19.150]  And you remember the fallout from that.
[34:19.150 --> 34:20.330]  People were resigning.
[34:20.630 --> 34:23.650]  All kinds of stock was falling, stuff like that.
[34:23.990 --> 34:24.930]  And get this.
[34:25.050 --> 34:28.850]  There's a guy in Illinois who was already suing them.
[34:29.110 --> 34:36.930]  Home Improvement Retailer Home Depot has been sued over the data breach by a customer, saying the company failed to properly safeguard customer data from hackers.
[34:37.190 --> 34:37.850]  Again, here we go.
[34:37.970 --> 34:38.290]  Hackers.
[34:38.390 --> 34:38.830]  Yeah, of course.
[34:38.970 --> 34:40.430]  That's the only possible culprit.
[34:40.430 --> 34:43.110]  In a lawsuit filed in Chicago yesterday.
[34:43.850 --> 34:46.530]  You've got to figure, this guy was ready to file the lawsuit.
[34:46.750 --> 34:48.290]  It takes time to get a lawsuit together.
[34:48.810 --> 34:52.290]  So, obviously, word of this was circulating in some form.
[34:52.430 --> 34:56.010]  And I understand, Bernie, you had some kind of involvement with... I mean, not involvement with this.
[34:56.050 --> 34:58.170]  I was one of the hackers who did this.
[34:58.310 --> 35:00.610]  No, actually, I was a Home Depot customer.
[35:01.390 --> 35:03.810]  Back on... I just verified this today.
[35:03.990 --> 35:11.410]  August 25th, I used my business debit card at Home Depot to buy more than $100 worth of building materials.
[35:12.310 --> 35:18.110]  Then an hour later, I went to Lowe's to get something that Home Depot didn't have in stock.
[35:18.250 --> 35:20.650]  And I couldn't use my debit card.
[35:20.850 --> 35:21.790]  I was like, what's going on?
[35:21.790 --> 35:31.630]  So, I called my bank, and they transferred me to the security department, who told me that, yes, we've been noticing a big spike in fraud at home improvement stores.
[35:32.250 --> 35:36.770]  I'm like, well, yeah, I went to a Home Depot an hour ago, and now I'm at a Lowe's.
[35:36.950 --> 35:41.350]  And I have enough money in my account to buy this stuff, so let me buy it.
[35:41.410 --> 35:42.350]  And they said, oh, okay.
[35:42.490 --> 35:43.710]  And then they let me buy it.
[35:43.890 --> 35:47.770]  But the folks at the point of sale there at Lowe's, they'd never seen this before.
[35:47.850 --> 35:48.410]  It never happened.
[35:48.530 --> 35:49.370]  I thought this was really weird.
[35:49.370 --> 35:53.550]  Then about a week later, I heard the story about Home Depot was just breaking, coming out.
[35:53.690 --> 35:54.010]  It's like, aha.
[35:54.210 --> 35:58.290]  So, folks in security were aware this is going on, and you heard rumors about it, too.
[35:58.830 --> 36:03.950]  But, you know, the big news story broke after, apparently, a lot of other people knew about it.
[36:05.250 --> 36:05.690]  Interesting.
[36:05.690 --> 36:12.010]  So, you basically were told that something was up, and this news was held back until now?
[36:12.510 --> 36:20.510]  Well, I'm not pointing fingers at who is holding it back or whatever, but, you know, news media has their own priorities on what they report and when.
[36:20.710 --> 36:35.190]  But my bank's card security, credit debit card security department, told me weeks ago that they had noticed a big spike in card fraud related to home improvement stores.
[36:35.610 --> 36:40.550]  When I told the people at Lowe's that, they were in, of course, they didn't say Home Depot, they said home improvement stores.
[36:40.610 --> 36:44.810]  But when I told the people at Lowe's that, where my card was declined, they're like, wow, we'd never heard of that before.
[36:44.930 --> 36:47.870]  I did it on my speakerphone, so the people at the, you know, it's kind of embarrassed.
[36:47.990 --> 36:49.990]  It's embarrassing when your card gets declined, you know.
[36:50.130 --> 36:52.070]  You're kind of like, looked at it, it's like...
[36:52.070 --> 36:54.950]  Oh, I point and laugh at the people that it happens to all the time.
[36:54.970 --> 36:56.370]  It's a great source of amusement.
[36:56.710 --> 37:02.610]  I put my phone on speaker so they could hear this, so I wouldn't have to explain them and they wouldn't have to, you know, believe what I said.
[37:02.610 --> 37:05.790]  But they were, they were like, they were astonished, like, wow, we'd never heard of this before.
[37:06.110 --> 37:11.690]  The home improvement store, just using your card at a home improvement store would flag your card for not being usable.
[37:11.690 --> 37:16.590]  So I was kind of annoyed, and I told them that, and not at Home Depot, it wasn't Lou's fault.
[37:17.030 --> 37:24.650]  I called, I told the folks at my bank that I was annoyed that my card was, was flagged, and I'd done nothing wrong with it, and it was not defrauded at all.
[37:24.890 --> 37:31.870]  But anyhow, they fixed that, and I spoke to them again today, and the bank today, and they said that, yeah, you don't have to get a new card.
[37:32.570 --> 37:35.070]  If there's any fraud, you won't be liable for it.
[37:35.070 --> 37:42.050]  But you have to notice it, I think, within a month or two on your statement before, you know, or you have to eat it.
[37:42.450 --> 37:43.430]  I'm not sure if that's true.
[37:43.510 --> 37:48.490]  I think if you notice it, you might, it might be a little bit more of a number of hoops you have to jump through.
[37:48.610 --> 37:53.590]  But I think if you notice fraud at any stage, maybe, maybe years down the road, it would be hard.
[37:53.710 --> 37:58.610]  Yeah, I know there's a time limit after which it's too late to let them know that you didn't do this.
[37:58.610 --> 38:05.150]  But maybe they make exceptions for cases like this where it's a known situation, like this Home Depot thing.
[38:05.510 --> 38:16.110]  Now, the next stage on this probably is Home Depot was going to have to provide credit monitoring, free credit monitoring service, to all the millions of people.
[38:16.110 --> 38:18.130]  And it's a joke, because they only do it for one year.
[38:18.610 --> 38:26.270]  And any criminal who's stolen all this credit card, debit card stuff is just going to wait a year and then do it after the credit monitoring runs out.
[38:26.350 --> 38:26.950]  It makes no sense.
[38:26.950 --> 38:33.270]  E, did you read that it was the same as the Target breach, like as far as how it was under, how it was done?
[38:33.430 --> 38:34.770]  I heard it was the same method used.
[38:35.150 --> 38:35.290]  Yeah.
[38:35.470 --> 38:39.050]  Which means these people are learning absolutely nothing, and they're not taking any additional safeguards.
[38:39.170 --> 38:39.570]  It's insane.
[38:39.850 --> 38:42.390]  It's the same point-of-sale equipment that's being used here.
[38:42.470 --> 38:47.570]  Yeah, and they're often running like Windows or Windows CE on top with some stuff on top.
[38:47.570 --> 39:12.610]  And the thing with places like Target or like Walmart or Home Depot is they're really highly centralized, and they rely really heavily on like VPNs and their own like private lines that go all to one central place in Atlanta, and it's all handled by like home office and home servers and all of that like internal network stuff.
[39:12.610 --> 39:18.730]  I learned that they actually control what time the lights get turned off at branches throughout the country from that central area.
[39:18.730 --> 39:19.470]  That's true.
[39:20.090 --> 39:21.130]  Imagine hacking that.
[39:21.930 --> 39:24.270]  But we're not going to get into details on that.
[39:25.010 --> 39:25.790]  Interesting, though.
[39:26.010 --> 39:34.990]  And, Bernie, I noticed also, because you wrote about this on our list, that your credit cards or your debit cards are going to be changed fairly soon.
[39:35.050 --> 39:45.350]  I think that's happening to everybody in the country, that we're moving finally to a system of using a chip instead of or in addition to a MagStripe.
[39:45.510 --> 39:48.170]  Well, not in addition to a MagStripe, but in addition to a PIN code.
[39:48.170 --> 39:49.310]  It'll be chip and PIN.
[39:49.490 --> 39:52.230]  It's been used in Europe for, what, like 20 years now?
[39:52.290 --> 39:54.690]  Chip and signature or chip and PIN, I believe.
[39:54.850 --> 39:58.450]  Because credit cards won't require a PIN, but they will require a signature.
[39:58.670 --> 40:01.490]  Do you have trouble using your MagStripe cards in Europe?
[40:01.590 --> 40:02.490]  Oh, yes.
[40:02.490 --> 40:03.750]  What a pain that is.
[40:03.890 --> 40:06.510]  It's like you have a MasterCard or you have an American...
[40:06.510 --> 40:08.710]  And they don't take it if it's from the United States.
[40:09.130 --> 40:12.270]  Which, what's the point of having it then if it's not accepted everywhere?
[40:12.870 --> 40:17.790]  So, yeah, if you have a credit card very soon, you will probably get a letter from them.
[40:18.170 --> 40:24.050]  And oddly enough, all of my MasterCards, I have a few of them, turned into Visa cards when they announced this change.
[40:24.330 --> 40:30.570]  And all of my account numbers had to be changed, which means I have to contact all these merchants that have recurring charges.
[40:30.570 --> 40:31.330]  They don't do that.
[40:31.350 --> 40:32.030]  You have to do that.
[40:32.090 --> 40:33.170]  So, it's a major pain.
[40:33.370 --> 40:38.430]  But I will be a lot happier having a chip instead of just that MagStripe.
[40:38.430 --> 40:41.390]  I have a question, not about this, but...
[40:41.390 --> 40:48.370]  So, what's going to happen is that Home Depot is going to be required to provide this credit monitoring service.
[40:48.510 --> 40:49.350]  Who knows what it does?
[40:50.890 --> 40:51.290]  But...
[40:51.290 --> 40:58.010]  And I was in a situation recently where I was offered a free year of credit monitoring for some nonsense.
[40:58.290 --> 40:59.130]  I hope you took it.
[40:59.210 --> 40:59.630]  Did you take it?
[40:59.650 --> 41:00.210]  No, I didn't.
[41:00.210 --> 41:01.870]  I don't know what it does.
[41:02.390 --> 41:04.450]  I'm fairly certain the answer is nothing.
[41:04.650 --> 41:17.370]  But what I do know has happened is that the entity that was responsible for my data being lost transferred, presumably, a list of everyone whose data was lost to this credit monitoring service.
[41:17.530 --> 41:23.930]  So, what we know is going to happen at some point in the future is the credit monitoring service itself is going to get hacked.
[41:24.110 --> 41:29.910]  And everyone who's paranoid about their credit is going to have their data lost.
[41:29.910 --> 41:31.190]  And I can't wait for that to happen.
[41:31.350 --> 41:32.230]  It's the same logic.
[41:32.570 --> 41:36.890]  The do not call list is a list of people who don't want to be called.
[41:37.130 --> 41:38.910]  And you can get that list.
[41:39.030 --> 41:40.410]  You can say, hey, I'm a telemarketer.
[41:40.450 --> 41:41.850]  I want to know who not to call.
[41:42.030 --> 41:47.750]  Now you have a list of people that you know you can get very angry if you just call them and solicit things.
[41:50.050 --> 41:55.810]  Yeah, we're basically plagued by lists and our inability to maintain their security.
[41:56.010 --> 41:59.890]  Well, I think we can solve this problem, Mike, of not trusting the credit monitoring.
[41:59.910 --> 42:06.310]  Monitoring companies by signing up for credit monitoring, monitoring services, which should be a burgeoning new field of business.
[42:06.690 --> 42:07.490]  Yeah, it never ends.
[42:07.490 --> 42:10.150]  To where do I send the letter with my social security number on it?
[42:10.190 --> 42:10.510]  You know what?
[42:10.510 --> 42:11.150]  Let's open up a P.O.
[42:11.150 --> 42:15.310]  box and we can do this ourselves because I'm sure it's a good idea that we'll go far.
[42:16.250 --> 42:16.290]  Emmanuel.
[42:16.510 --> 42:17.010]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[42:17.590 --> 42:21.170]  Along the same lines, there's a big news story this week or yesterday or today.
[42:22.190 --> 42:23.510]  I hate talking about Apple.
[42:23.610 --> 42:32.190]  I don't own any Apple products, but they have a new thing called Apple Pay, which is supposed to do away with all this credit card fraud and stuff.
[42:33.290 --> 42:34.670]  I'm sure it'll end it all, won't it?
[42:34.790 --> 42:36.390]  Well, what's different about it?
[42:36.390 --> 42:56.030]  Well, instead of having a credit card, there's actually a chip in the new iPhone 6, another reason not to buy it, that has hardware encryption in it, reportedly, that will allow you to make credit card transactions with any one of Apple's blessed merchants.
[42:56.410 --> 43:01.690]  Apple has apparently signed deals with a whole bunch of merchants already, point-of-sale merchants and maybe online.
[43:01.690 --> 43:02.010]  Well, I don't know.
[43:02.130 --> 43:03.610]  I think it's just point-of-sale, not online.
[43:03.770 --> 43:06.490]  And this uses a lot of NFC technology, right, Bernie?
[43:06.650 --> 43:06.930]  Exactly.
[43:07.070 --> 43:09.590]  Near-field radio communications.
[43:09.610 --> 43:10.090]  Oh, I see.
[43:10.150 --> 43:15.390]  You hold your phone, you tap your phone or hold it near this little transponder at the point-of-sale system, and it goes bleep-leep.
[43:15.450 --> 43:16.270]  It probably doesn't make sounds.
[43:16.410 --> 43:21.030]  But anyway, the data is securely exchanged for your credit card information.
[43:21.190 --> 43:23.310]  And the merchant never has your credit card info.
[43:24.150 --> 43:26.550]  So now, obviously, Apple's going to be the big target.
[43:26.550 --> 43:27.570]  I can't wait until they get hacked.
[43:27.570 --> 43:40.750]  I actually was feeling sorry for Apple yesterday watching them unveil these products and just so many people coming down on them hard for, like, coming out with technology that already exists on other devices and just making fun of Apple in general.
[43:41.150 --> 43:42.130]  I almost felt sorry.
[43:42.210 --> 43:44.190]  I didn't really feel sorry for them, but I almost did.
[43:44.570 --> 43:50.370]  Well, this Apple Pay stuff is, as I understand it, it's basically PayPal for people with expensive telephones.
[43:50.970 --> 43:57.170]  So, I mean, I have a different brand of expensive telephone that already has this functionality, and it's really... I don't like it.
[43:57.250 --> 43:58.570]  It's really inconvenient to use.
[43:58.730 --> 44:03.790]  From a consumer perspective, it is, like, much more time-consuming than just swiping a credit card.
[44:03.910 --> 44:08.230]  So I'm really curious to see, like, if or why anyone wants to use this.
[44:08.350 --> 44:09.950]  But maybe Apple did it better.
[44:10.010 --> 44:10.350]  I don't know.
[44:10.430 --> 44:14.010]  Let me give out our phone number so our listeners can join in the conversation in the time we have left.
[44:14.010 --> 44:16.230]  212-209-2900.
[44:16.650 --> 44:17.130]  All right.
[44:17.230 --> 44:18.390]  So can I wish for something?
[44:18.390 --> 44:20.410]  Yeah, you can have one wish.
[44:20.530 --> 44:22.190]  It's like future nostalgia.
[44:22.550 --> 44:22.990]  Fine.
[44:23.370 --> 44:23.910]  Future nostalgia.
[44:24.130 --> 44:29.890]  I want to go back to a time when the telephone company made their own phone.
[44:30.210 --> 44:30.970]  Can we do that?
[44:31.750 --> 44:32.270]  Interesting.
[44:32.270 --> 44:34.190]  The phone company making its own telephone.
[44:34.350 --> 44:34.550]  Yeah.
[44:34.870 --> 44:36.790]  Like, there are ODMs.
[44:37.050 --> 44:39.090]  It's an original design manufacturer.
[44:39.230 --> 44:39.990]  It's a thing, right?
[44:39.990 --> 44:43.030]  So you have that in the electronics world.
[44:43.350 --> 44:48.370]  These telephone service providers, granted, yeah, they just want to be a service provider.
[44:48.390 --> 44:51.490]  There's little private worlds, and they can just charge everybody everything.
[44:51.690 --> 44:54.570]  But why not make their own handsets?
[44:54.650 --> 44:55.830]  I would be interested in that.
[44:55.930 --> 44:56.810]  I want to see that.
[44:57.570 --> 45:03.410]  It would be really fantastic just from a, like, nostalgic perspective.
[45:03.450 --> 45:06.170]  I want to see, like, a Sprint handset that's actually Sprint.
[45:06.230 --> 45:06.730]  You remember, like...
[45:06.730 --> 45:07.450]  I don't know if you do.
[45:07.590 --> 45:11.650]  Would we approach these devices, like, with any more romance?
[45:11.950 --> 45:15.090]  Because this, like, artificial romance is just... I don't know.
[45:15.090 --> 45:19.490]  I don't think you'll ever get anything to match a good old-fashioned Bell 500 handset, but...
[45:19.490 --> 45:20.970]  It's kind of like a ventriloquist.
[45:21.090 --> 45:24.390]  Like, the phone company has the handset manufacturer and the...
[45:24.390 --> 45:24.730]  Uh-huh.
[45:25.050 --> 45:25.670]  Does anybody see that?
[45:25.950 --> 45:29.490]  You know, it's great that you're wishing for these things, but I'm not sure.
[45:29.670 --> 45:30.450]  Rob, what do you think?
[45:30.570 --> 45:37.530]  I think the reason this didn't work out the first time around was because there were all these other manufacturers of more interesting phones than you could get from Bell.
[45:37.670 --> 45:43.070]  Phones shaped like watermelons and footballs and cats and things, and Bell was not providing.
[45:43.070 --> 45:44.410]  That took off like a lead balloon.
[45:44.670 --> 45:51.330]  No, I think, as far as landlines go, those old-fashioned Bell phones were the ones that...
[45:51.330 --> 45:52.010]  But it's still around.
[45:52.070 --> 45:53.930]  You can still find them in garage tails everywhere.
[45:54.230 --> 45:55.130]  Functionally, they're the best.
[45:55.270 --> 45:55.930]  And they're...
[45:55.930 --> 45:58.850]  You know, if you still have one, it still probably works as well as it ever did.
[45:59.170 --> 46:03.290]  But people are fickle creatures, and they want new fancy things.
[46:03.450 --> 46:04.250]  No, no, no, Rob.
[46:04.450 --> 46:07.810]  But I get what you're saying, but, like, let's just...
[46:07.810 --> 46:10.710]  Why not a Western Electric mobile handset?
[46:10.810 --> 46:11.990]  Well, first of all, they don't exist anymore.
[46:11.990 --> 46:12.830]  I yearn for that.
[46:13.010 --> 46:13.710]  That'd be very heavy.
[46:13.990 --> 46:30.670]  I think they could really do something, like, in this market, this market of just constant churn of fashionable handset after fashionable handset with one lousy new feature over another and all this constant comparison.
[46:30.670 --> 46:41.250]  I would just love to see one of these service providers come out swinging with some brilliant idea and just blow all of these, like, manufacturers out of the water.
[46:41.250 --> 46:41.890]  Kyle?
[46:42.110 --> 46:47.090]  And just be interesting for a change instead of fighting, like, net neutrality and stuff.
[46:47.150 --> 46:47.550]  Go ahead, Barney.
[46:47.710 --> 46:51.390]  Kyle, you know, Western Electric was a... now it's Lucent.
[46:52.150 --> 46:53.550]  And you know their new... their logo?
[46:53.930 --> 46:55.310]  It's been around for, like, 15, 20 years now.
[46:55.390 --> 46:57.250]  It's like this sort of circular...
[46:58.750 --> 47:01.750]  this smeared circular thing with a red donut.
[47:02.010 --> 47:05.010]  It's Alcatel... oh, yeah, the crayon mark.
[47:05.010 --> 47:13.130]  Yeah, well, the world system engineers, they have, for years, referred to this new logo as the bloody sphincter of quality.
[47:14.290 --> 47:15.650]  Well, there you go, right there.
[47:15.710 --> 47:18.070]  You know, with just a jaded bunch of people now.
[47:18.130 --> 47:19.850]  I will say that there are...
[47:19.850 --> 47:24.770]  when I was in Portugal, there were some interesting ads for Alcatel handsets.
[47:24.770 --> 47:26.870]  All right, let's move on.
[47:27.950 --> 47:39.230]  Some of the things we're talking about, net neutrality and maybe handsets made by phone companies that sell service and all the other things that we're wishing for, maybe credit card security and good passwords.
[47:39.810 --> 47:42.830]  Maybe a new country can do all this for us.
[47:42.950 --> 47:47.350]  And if there is a new country, its name will be Scotland in 10 days.
[47:48.490 --> 47:56.670]  And who knows, we could make that the capital of intelligence as far as technology goes.
[47:56.790 --> 47:57.290]  Probably not, but...
[47:57.290 --> 47:58.070]  Is it a top-level domain?
[47:58.450 --> 48:11.070]  Well, that's what I was going to bring up, actually, because since now, the United Kingdom is panicking over the fact that the polls have changed and Scotland may very well be an independent country in the next two weeks.
[48:12.170 --> 48:13.870]  What is going to be the top-level domain?
[48:13.870 --> 48:19.230]  And everywhere I look, I see that .scot has been given the go-ahead.
[48:19.330 --> 48:21.150]  That's S-C-O-T.
[48:21.750 --> 48:23.350]  These are older stories, though.
[48:23.410 --> 48:25.850]  These are stories from several months, even years ago.
[48:26.050 --> 48:36.030]  Scotland is set to receive its own internet domain after an international authority gave permission for the country to have its own unique web addresses, and they decided to go for .S-C-O-T.
[48:36.570 --> 48:42.190]  That, you know, every other country in the world, even the United States, has a two-letter country code.
[48:43.870 --> 48:47.250]  That's not going to be something that fits in with all the others.
[48:47.390 --> 48:50.050]  So, my question is, what's going to be their two-letter code?
[48:50.170 --> 48:50.950]  Are they going to have one?
[48:51.010 --> 48:52.170]  Are they going to bypass this somehow?
[48:52.190 --> 48:57.050]  It's not a good first step as a country to break the rules and go with a four-letter one.
[48:57.210 --> 48:58.530]  Are there two-letter ones left?
[48:58.790 --> 48:59.790]  Well, there have to be.
[48:59.930 --> 49:02.390]  I mean, someone do the calculation of how many...
[49:02.950 --> 49:03.150]  Yeah.
[49:03.150 --> 49:03.730]  Mike, you're good at math.
[49:03.730 --> 49:07.130]  26 squared is more than the number of countries in the world by far.
[49:07.190 --> 49:07.410]  Well, how many did start with math?
[49:07.410 --> 49:08.550]  26 squared is what, though?
[49:08.670 --> 49:09.490]  Can someone do that?
[49:09.570 --> 49:10.330]  It's hundreds.
[49:10.730 --> 49:11.230]  Oh, thank you.
[49:11.290 --> 49:11.670]  Many hundreds.
[49:12.070 --> 49:18.210]  But, so, it's going to take more than a week for Scotland to become independent, presumably, if they vote for it.
[49:18.850 --> 49:20.070]  I'm willing to help with this.
[49:20.230 --> 49:20.450]  All right.
[49:20.670 --> 49:31.770]  You know, the ISO will assign them a code, probably, and then they'll get a domain out of it, but if they don't choose independence, then they can have... they can't have a two-letter code, so I guess they can have the four-one if that's what they vote for.
[49:31.770 --> 49:36.770]  Well, yeah, obviously, if they're not an independent country, then they don't even get to have a two-letter domain.
[49:37.810 --> 49:40.250]  But they can have the most obvious one, SC.
[49:40.410 --> 49:41.590]  Somebody else has got that already.
[49:42.130 --> 49:42.930]  Who took that?
[49:43.030 --> 49:43.630]  Who took SC?
[49:43.910 --> 49:47.510]  I don't know who, but there are .SC sites out there.
[49:47.870 --> 50:03.850]  But I think also, I think they probably might be happy, okay... they might be happy and okay with the four-letter country code, just because domain names now, they've got all these new top-level domains, like .kitchen and .bike and .plumbing and .sexy and all this other ridiculous stuff.
[50:03.850 --> 50:04.690]  It's a real waste of time.
[50:04.830 --> 50:09.770]  So basically, top-level domains have passed the point of crazy already, so I think...
[50:09.770 --> 50:18.030]  Every time this happens, we have to register 2600.kitchen and things like that, you know, so that we maintain our brand, and it just costs a fortune.
[50:18.390 --> 50:19.250]  No, actually, we don't do that.
[50:20.210 --> 50:21.690]  212-209-2900.
[50:21.690 --> 50:28.350]  We just had a bunch of calls, and because the phone companies are greedy now, they make it stop after five rings, so people have to keep redialing.
[50:28.910 --> 50:35.330]  Yeah, we got caught up in the conversation, so the first person who calls back, 212-209-2900, we will put on the air.
[50:35.390 --> 50:37.510]  There's one, so let's go to that person.
[50:37.510 --> 50:38.770]  Good evening, you're on off the hook.
[50:40.530 --> 50:41.230]  Speak up, please.
[50:42.010 --> 50:42.510]  Oh, look at that.
[50:42.630 --> 50:44.590]  The light turned green again, so this is not working.
[50:44.710 --> 50:46.130]  I'm sorry, we cannot hear you.
[50:46.790 --> 50:48.190]  In fact, we can't even see you.
[50:49.290 --> 50:52.050]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[50:52.190 --> 50:53.970]  We'll wait for a couple more calls to come in.
[50:54.190 --> 50:54.610]  Mike, go ahead.
[50:54.710 --> 50:56.170]  SC is for the Seychelles.
[50:56.990 --> 50:57.330]  Seychelles.
[50:57.450 --> 50:58.590]  You know, they've been nothing but trouble.
[50:58.730 --> 50:59.430]  They really have.
[51:00.370 --> 51:02.810]  You're going to start a war between Scotland and the Seychelles.
[51:02.810 --> 51:04.190]  No, I want to get calls from Seychelles.
[51:04.310 --> 51:04.570]  All right.
[51:04.630 --> 51:05.510]  Good evening, you're on off the hook.
[51:05.650 --> 51:09.810]  Yes, I suppose Ziggler will be the ununited kingdom now.
[51:10.250 --> 51:12.070]  You know, Tom, you didn't fix that static on your phone.
[51:12.630 --> 51:12.870]  Huh?
[51:12.870 --> 51:14.170]  We told you about this a couple of weeks ago.
[51:14.270 --> 51:15.710]  You have static on your line, don't you hear it?
[51:15.810 --> 51:16.270]  Oh, yeah.
[51:16.810 --> 51:18.850]  You have a landline, and you need to fix that static.
[51:18.950 --> 51:21.230]  This is like a call from the 1970s here.
[51:22.190 --> 51:23.890]  But you sound nice and clear, though.
[51:23.930 --> 51:24.430]  I'll say that.
[51:24.710 --> 51:25.650]  Yeah, I see.
[51:25.830 --> 51:27.270]  The ununited kingdom.
[51:28.610 --> 51:29.330]  Ununited kingdom.
[51:29.570 --> 51:32.190]  Well, they can't use UK anymore if they're not going to be the united kingdom.
[51:32.530 --> 51:33.730]  Anyway, thanks for your call.
[51:33.790 --> 51:35.250]  Let's take another call here.
[51:35.450 --> 51:36.630]  Good evening, you're on off the hook.
[51:37.790 --> 51:38.450]  Yeah, hi.
[51:38.810 --> 51:39.610]  I'm concerned.
[51:40.530 --> 51:41.310]  We all are.
[51:43.390 --> 51:47.650]  Isn't it something like, you know, you build a mousetrap, and then someone else builds a better mousetrap?
[51:47.850 --> 51:56.670]  So no matter how they do, with a credit card or cash or a chip, then it can be hacked or...
[51:56.670 --> 51:59.270]  Well, first, turn down your radio, because we hear you twice.
[51:59.450 --> 51:59.870]  You got it.
[51:59.930 --> 52:03.410]  And second, that's an excuse for never doing anything, though.
[52:03.610 --> 52:06.550]  You know, because someone's going to break it eventually.
[52:06.550 --> 52:07.610]  Actually, why even build it?
[52:08.090 --> 52:10.150]  By bad people in government.
[52:10.510 --> 52:20.850]  And I want to add, these big stores that replaced a whole bunch of mom-and-pop hardware stores, they make so much money, and their prices aren't really much lower at all.
[52:20.950 --> 52:36.870]  And with all this profit they make, because they have a ton of customers all day, such as Home Depot, shouldn't they be more responsible, and shouldn't they want to protect their customer, and shouldn't they want to protect their store, their own, you know,
[52:37.250 --> 52:39.650]  transactions and stuff?
[52:39.810 --> 52:40.470]  You would think.
[52:40.470 --> 52:41.490]  And you bring up a good point.
[52:41.630 --> 52:49.850]  Always go to a local hardware store before you go to Home Depot or Lowe's, because you'll get actual people that care about what they do, and probably will protect your data a whole lot better.
[52:50.090 --> 52:51.210]  I'll tell you something else.
[52:51.210 --> 52:53.070]  Sometimes you can get better products, too.
[52:53.270 --> 52:53.650]  Absolutely.
[52:53.950 --> 52:55.290]  Okay, thanks for that call, Rob.
[52:55.310 --> 52:55.510]  Go ahead.
[52:56.070 --> 53:10.010]  Just going back to what the caller was saying about the better mousetrap, the really sad part of that situation is that the chip and pin that will be our better mousetrap was the better mousetrap for the rest of the world 20 years ago, so we've just been too lazy to even get to the slightly decent mousetrap.
[53:10.270 --> 53:10.850]  And cheap.
[53:11.990 --> 53:13.210]  212-209-2900.
[53:13.250 --> 53:13.570]  Good evening.
[53:13.690 --> 53:14.290]  You're on off the hook.
[53:15.830 --> 53:16.350]  Go ahead.
[53:16.430 --> 53:16.750]  Speak up.
[53:17.770 --> 53:18.150]  No?
[53:18.350 --> 53:18.530]  Okay.
[53:18.530 --> 53:19.370]  Let's try this one.
[53:19.970 --> 53:20.310]  Okay.
[53:20.310 --> 53:22.650]  Okay, our phone system is a little bit messed up.
[53:22.750 --> 53:23.550]  I'm sorry about that.
[53:23.750 --> 53:25.010]  Half the buttons aren't working.
[53:25.350 --> 53:27.150]  So if you got disconnected, please call back.
[53:27.310 --> 53:29.170]  212-209-2900.
[53:30.790 --> 53:31.410]  There's a call.
[53:31.550 --> 53:33.110]  And, you know, these aren't picking up.
[53:34.070 --> 53:34.590]  I'm sorry.
[53:34.650 --> 53:36.830]  I don't know how to do this if the phones don't pick up.
[53:36.910 --> 53:39.090]  We're picking up, but they're not going onto the instrument.
[53:40.350 --> 53:41.350]  Let's try this one.
[53:43.210 --> 53:45.590]  We're getting a lot of calls, but the phone instrument is not working.
[53:45.590 --> 53:47.870]  So, I don't know what to say.
[53:48.530 --> 53:49.990]  Anyone have anything I want to add?
[53:50.350 --> 53:51.170]  That's pretty sad.
[53:51.410 --> 53:51.730]  It is sad.
[53:52.110 --> 53:53.030]  All turning green.
[53:53.250 --> 53:54.470]  Wasn't there a piece of tape on there?
[53:54.630 --> 53:56.310]  And maybe that was an important piece of tape.
[53:56.430 --> 53:58.810]  Well, the piece of tape just covers up the flashing light.
[53:58.890 --> 54:00.630]  That doesn't really help in any way.
[54:00.730 --> 54:01.030]  There we go.
[54:01.070 --> 54:02.110]  We got a red light here.
[54:02.190 --> 54:02.410]  Good evening.
[54:02.470 --> 54:02.990]  You're on off the hook.
[54:03.150 --> 54:03.330]  Yeah.
[54:03.470 --> 54:03.710]  Hi.
[54:04.030 --> 54:04.350]  Yes.
[54:04.530 --> 54:05.210]  Hello, Manuel.
[54:05.510 --> 54:05.650]  Hi.
[54:15.590 --> 54:17.050]  A lot of radio stations sound the same.
[54:17.190 --> 54:19.350]  They have the same sound effects and they have the same...
[54:19.350 --> 54:20.990]  So, they see the same thing.
[54:21.230 --> 54:21.890]  Not this one.
[54:22.010 --> 54:22.890]  Not this one.
[54:23.290 --> 54:24.850]  I mean, look at where we're airing right now.
[54:25.510 --> 54:26.070]  Of course.
[54:26.950 --> 54:27.170]  Right.
[54:27.230 --> 54:27.810]  But you don't...
[54:27.810 --> 54:30.570]  Like, if you go around the country, you use it like the rock station.
[54:30.790 --> 54:31.050]  Uh-huh.
[54:31.050 --> 54:31.450]  Okay.
[54:32.090 --> 54:34.170]  Like, it's cold beer and hot wind.
[54:34.390 --> 54:40.210]  Every radio station, like rock radio station, whether you're in New Mexico or California or Indiana...
[54:40.810 --> 54:44.430]  It's called homogeneity, and it's the enemy of all free thinkers everywhere.
[54:44.430 --> 54:46.270]  I remember you talking about that.
[54:46.390 --> 54:48.470]  Just like toll-free numbers, like 800 numbers.
[54:48.690 --> 54:48.830]  Uh-huh.
[54:48.850 --> 54:50.430]  Like, uh...
[54:50.430 --> 54:51.010]  It's like...
[54:51.410 --> 54:54.390]  You know, like the vanity numbers, like...
[54:54.390 --> 54:55.510]  Just like, you know, like...
[54:55.510 --> 54:56.830]  What's like the...
[54:56.830 --> 54:58.210]  Take me over, you know, uh...
[54:58.210 --> 54:59.210]  Toyota was...
[54:59.210 --> 54:59.650]  And...
[55:00.130 --> 55:01.670]  Lousy cell phone connections, too.
[55:02.270 --> 55:02.630]  Uh...
[55:02.630 --> 55:03.770]  Oh, and we lost that one.
[55:03.790 --> 55:04.050]  Good evening.
[55:04.110 --> 55:04.770]  You're on off the hook.
[55:05.810 --> 55:06.530]  A tone.
[55:07.770 --> 55:08.910]  Well, that's an improvement.
[55:09.010 --> 55:09.270]  Good evening.
[55:09.350 --> 55:09.910]  You're on off the hook.
[55:10.590 --> 55:11.630]  Hey, what's up, Emmanuel?
[55:11.950 --> 55:12.530]  How you doing?
[55:12.630 --> 55:13.210]  What's on your mind?
[55:13.970 --> 55:14.330]  Um...
[55:14.330 --> 55:17.350]  Well, this is actually a topic based on a 2600 meeting.
[55:17.530 --> 55:18.150]  Is this okay?
[55:18.590 --> 55:19.130]  Uh, yes.
[55:19.290 --> 55:23.090]  2600 meetings, I believe, took place last Friday, all around the world.
[55:23.810 --> 55:24.370]  And, uh...
[55:24.450 --> 55:26.370]  And, uh, Rob, uh, that they went on smoothly in New York?
[55:26.590 --> 55:27.010]  Yes, indeed.
[55:27.150 --> 55:27.570]  Okay, good.
[55:27.710 --> 55:28.830]  Uh, what's your comment?
[55:29.570 --> 55:39.170]  Well, the problem is that I live in Delaware, and there hasn't been a single 2600 meeting, and I decided to start one, except I'm having trouble getting it started.
[55:39.730 --> 55:40.770]  Um, I'm just...
[55:40.770 --> 55:42.190]  What kind of trouble are you having?
[55:42.910 --> 55:45.290]  Well, it's just that, um...
[55:45.290 --> 55:50.730]  I have, uh, a nearby mall that is willing to host it at a cafe area.
[55:51.970 --> 56:00.890]  And, um, it's just that I'm trying to get, trying to get, uh, notice in the next, uh, article, which, but, um, I'm not contacting anyone from 2600.
[56:01.130 --> 56:02.770]  Okay, well, a couple of things.
[56:03.010 --> 56:04.770]  Uh, first off, you don't have to ask permission.
[56:04.770 --> 56:11.590]  And, uh, you're having the meeting in a public area, uh, in a food court or, or, um, some place that people congregate in.
[56:11.710 --> 56:14.310]  As long as you're not being disruptive, you have every right to be there.
[56:14.610 --> 56:17.770]  So, um, if you ask permission, someone's going to say no at some point.
[56:17.870 --> 56:27.850]  So just pick the place that you think is best, whether it's a coffee shop with tables, uh, or a mall, food court, or some other area that's open to the public.
[56:28.290 --> 56:30.870]  And, uh, you know, try and, try and be nice about it, too.
[56:31.030 --> 56:35.490]  Buy things from the people that, that sell things around there so that you're not just, uh, taking up space.
[56:35.890 --> 56:40.070]  And then what you do is you simply get the word out in whatever way you can.
[56:40.290 --> 56:48.410]  Uh, one thing we suggest, if you go to, like, a Barnes & Noble or something that sells the magazine, you simply insert some little flyer there saying, hey, you like this magazine?
[56:48.490 --> 56:49.710]  You might like the meetings take place.
[56:49.970 --> 56:52.070]  And then update us.
[56:52.330 --> 56:56.230]  Send email to meetings at 2600.com and tell us how it's going.
[56:56.370 --> 57:00.450]  If you do that a few times, then we print it in the magazine and on the website.
[57:00.450 --> 57:03.170]  And all of a sudden, you have more people showing up.
[57:03.870 --> 57:04.390]  All right.
[57:04.390 --> 57:06.310]  Um, well, thank you so much, Emmanuel.
[57:06.570 --> 57:10.770]  I'm, I'm really excited to start this meeting up because, you know, I think it's about time Delaware gets in it.
[57:11.130 --> 57:11.310]  Absolutely.
[57:11.570 --> 57:14.550]  You know, Delaware is definitely, uh, definitely time for this.
[57:14.910 --> 57:16.370]  I don't know if Delaware ever had a meeting before.
[57:16.590 --> 57:18.290]  So, uh, that would, that would be a great thing.
[57:18.430 --> 57:21.870]  And again, meetings, if you're not familiar with the concept, it's not really a meeting per se.
[57:21.870 --> 57:22.610]  It's a gathering.
[57:22.750 --> 57:26.470]  It's where people just kind of hang out and share stories and meet other people.
[57:26.630 --> 57:28.850]  There's no set agenda and there's no leader.
[57:29.090 --> 57:29.590]  There's none of that.
[57:29.790 --> 57:33.970]  It's just basically a place where first Friday of the month for a few hours, people get together.
[57:34.530 --> 57:43.370]  Also, the, uh, the advice I'd have is put up a website for the meeting, uh, that'll help get the word out, uh, post it to, um, boards about your area, boards about, uh, the hacker community and things like that.
[57:43.490 --> 57:44.510]  And yeah, the word will spread.
[57:44.870 --> 57:45.270]  Absolutely.
[57:45.610 --> 57:46.670]  Hey, we're out of time.
[57:46.990 --> 57:48.910]  Personal Computer Show is coming up next.
[57:49.070 --> 57:55.770]  If you want to write to us, our email address, as always, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[57:55.770 --> 58:03.410]  You can use that address to send us news clippings or items of note, questions, theories, points of outrage, whatnot.
[58:04.010 --> 58:04.970]  It's Emmanuel for Off The Hook.
[58:05.070 --> 58:06.650]  We will see you again next week.
[58:06.790 --> 58:07.830]  Same time, same place.
[58:07.970 --> 58:08.130]  Good night.
[58:37.750 --> 58:41.870]  We'll see you again next week.
[58:43.770 --> 58:50.970]  We'll see you again next week.