[00:00.000 --> 00:22.520]  Scheduled participants include Milton Alamadi, Harry Belafonte, former Mayor David Dinkins, the Africa Channel's Felicia Mabuza-Suttle, the Sahavo Choir, and the host of WBAI's No Question Asked Show, Uptown Hall, at the Apollo Theater, Sunday, October 12th,
[00:23.020 --> 00:24.480]  starting at 3 p.m.
[00:24.800 --> 00:29.240]  For more information, go to ApolloTheater.org.
[00:33.680 --> 00:37.140]  And you are listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:37.140 --> 00:39.520]  It's 7 o'clock time once again for Off the Hook.
[01:03.390 --> 01:05.490]  I hope that's understood.
[01:54.210 --> 01:56.290]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[01:56.290 --> 01:58.250]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:58.990 --> 02:05.110]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by the intermission theme from Hope X.
[02:07.730 --> 02:09.250]  One of the intermission themes, anyway.
[02:09.310 --> 02:10.630]  I could listen to this all night.
[02:13.170 --> 02:15.730]  And if we run out of material, we certainly will do that.
[02:15.730 --> 02:17.810]  But we won't run out of material because we have so much tonight.
[02:18.210 --> 02:19.470]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:19.750 --> 02:20.130]  Hi there.
[02:20.590 --> 02:20.950]  Kyle.
[02:21.330 --> 02:21.850]  Hello, hello.
[02:21.950 --> 02:22.430]  Hi, everyone.
[02:22.670 --> 02:23.250]  And Bernie S.
[02:23.810 --> 02:25.010]  Bernie from Pennsylvania.
[02:25.290 --> 02:28.010]  Bernie, you'll need a better mouthpiece than that if you expect anybody to hear you.
[02:28.270 --> 02:29.050]  I'm going to switch phones.
[02:29.170 --> 02:29.810]  I'm on a different phone.
[02:29.850 --> 02:30.610]  Yes, yes.
[02:31.250 --> 02:33.930]  Not the kind of phone you get from Time Life at 2 in the morning.
[02:35.330 --> 02:37.130]  Free with a subscription or anything like that.
[02:38.890 --> 02:40.590]  Is that at all still a thing?
[02:40.590 --> 02:41.450]  I don't know.
[02:42.530 --> 02:45.550]  Somebody has to have those phones and they must still be trying to use them.
[02:46.230 --> 02:49.590]  Well, when Bernie does get back, I'm sure we'll hear his voice loud and clear.
[02:50.350 --> 02:51.290]  This is a special.
[02:51.730 --> 02:52.790]  Are you back, Bernie?
[02:53.350 --> 02:54.450]  Am I louder and clearer?
[02:54.610 --> 02:56.570]  You are louder and clearer, though that's...
[02:56.570 --> 02:58.530]  Considering how low you were before, that's not too hard to do.
[02:58.730 --> 02:59.090]  Okay, thank you.
[02:59.150 --> 03:01.110]  We have a special two-hour program tonight.
[03:01.110 --> 03:02.810]  No personal computer show at 8 o'clock.
[03:02.910 --> 03:04.170]  No, it's going to be us for two hours.
[03:04.630 --> 03:08.790]  And the reason for that is because this is the start of the Autumn Fundraiser.
[03:09.390 --> 03:11.490]  And we are back with a vengeance.
[03:12.010 --> 03:14.590]  It doesn't mean we're seeking vengeance.
[03:14.850 --> 03:22.510]  It means that we're back with passion and with spirit because we have resolved our premium issues.
[03:22.910 --> 03:28.170]  Our Edward Snowden WikiLeaks thumb drives are being shipped to us.
[03:28.270 --> 03:32.130]  And we expect those to be shipped out to listeners who pledged for them last year.
[03:32.370 --> 03:33.590]  And we're sorry for the delay.
[03:33.730 --> 03:37.690]  This time, it's not going to happen that way because we are doing it in a different fashion.
[03:37.690 --> 03:50.930]  We have all kinds of cool things to give to people who call 212-209-2950 tonight and pledge support to WBAI.
[03:51.550 --> 03:58.170]  One thing that we have, which is brand new, is the 2015 Hacker Calendar.
[03:58.870 --> 03:59.590]  Autographed.
[03:59.670 --> 04:04.390]  Autographed by all of the off-the-hook commentators.
[04:06.390 --> 04:06.730]  Autographed by all of the off-the-hook commentators.
[04:06.730 --> 04:08.050]  So this means I have to learn to write.
[04:08.130 --> 04:12.210]  You have to learn to write and recognize your name.
[04:12.890 --> 04:16.310]  Bernie, somehow you have to sign these things even though you're in a different city.
[04:16.810 --> 04:17.770]  I'm going to use...
[04:17.770 --> 04:39.510]  You know, in the Hotel Pennsylvania basement, there's a brass flag under a big knife switch for controlling a piece of equipment that was once there called a teleautograph, which was a device from more than 100 years ago that allowed you to sign documents in one city and have your signature transferred to a document in another city.
[04:39.630 --> 04:43.530]  Well, that sounds like a modern invention that I don't know how to even get.
[04:43.530 --> 04:49.850]  So, Bernie, while you're up here repairing that device, though, you might also just sign some calendars in person as a backup.
[04:50.430 --> 04:51.550]  That's a good idea, too.
[04:51.950 --> 04:54.990]  So, pledge is $75.202.209.2950.
[04:54.990 --> 04:58.390]  You'll get the autographed copy of the 2015 Hacker Calendar.
[04:58.570 --> 05:08.070]  Well, you can learn, if you look at October 8th, you will find out that that was the day the telegraph line between Los Angeles and San Francisco opened back in.
[05:08.230 --> 05:09.110]  Anyone want to guess?
[05:09.970 --> 05:10.450]  No?
[05:10.990 --> 05:11.750]  A long time ago.
[05:11.750 --> 05:12.610]  1860.
[05:12.770 --> 05:13.470]  That's how long ago.
[05:14.110 --> 05:15.910]  People were signing documents over that line.
[05:16.010 --> 05:16.710]  Okay, I'm sure they were.
[05:17.010 --> 05:24.510]  Well, almost every day of the year has something that happened that is of interest to people who follow hackers, who follow technology.
[05:26.030 --> 05:29.530]  It's a fascinating thing to have.
[05:29.850 --> 05:32.250]  We've been publishing the Hacker Calendar now for a few years.
[05:32.690 --> 05:33.990]  It's quite popular.
[05:34.250 --> 05:37.110]  Every year it gets bigger because every year we add more dates.
[05:37.610 --> 05:38.090]  Wait, what?
[05:38.570 --> 05:39.330]  Well, we do.
[05:39.710 --> 05:42.970]  There's more than 365 days in your year?
[05:43.110 --> 05:43.610]  No, we don't add days.
[05:43.730 --> 05:46.810]  We add things that happen on certain...
[05:46.810 --> 05:50.030]  For instance, all the WikiLeaks, Edward Snowden things.
[05:50.030 --> 05:53.590]  That didn't happen initially when we put out the calendar because that was in the future.
[05:53.730 --> 05:54.910]  But now it's in the past.
[05:55.270 --> 05:56.490]  Yeah, I can explain this in detail later.
[05:56.490 --> 06:00.710]  So it's still the standard calendar that, you know, Gregorian calendar that everyone uses.
[06:00.890 --> 06:03.490]  There's just more information than any other calendar.
[06:03.750 --> 06:11.290]  And I should point out also there are amazing photographs of payphones around the world for every single month.
[06:12.750 --> 06:18.930]  If you read 2600, you know that that's one of the passions that we have is publishing foreign payphone photos.
[06:19.050 --> 06:22.330]  For some reason that's gotten more popular than almost anything else we do.
[06:22.330 --> 06:34.490]  Looking at this calendar, I see we have photographs from Greece, from Japan, China, all kinds of different places, Peru.
[06:35.070 --> 06:37.410]  Yeah, and all these photos are really, really amazing.
[06:37.730 --> 06:42.170]  And full color, 12 by 12, glossy, suitable for framing.
[06:42.330 --> 06:43.930]  And many people do frame them, in fact.
[06:44.250 --> 06:47.570]  Yes, and they are also bathroom compliant.
[06:47.570 --> 06:51.750]  You may hang a hacker calendar in your water closet.
[06:51.750 --> 06:53.910]  Well, that will be a relief to many of our listeners, I know.
[06:54.230 --> 06:58.810]  But now, we also have another premium.
[06:59.090 --> 07:00.110]  This is a very special one.
[07:00.150 --> 07:03.950]  This is what we're going to be focusing the two-hour program on primarily.
[07:05.190 --> 07:16.170]  And it has to do with our conference, our Hope X conference that took place in July, that had so many amazing speakers, so much content.
[07:16.670 --> 07:29.810]  And what we are offering, what we are offering is a full, a full DVD set, 100 DVDs, 100 DVDs, for a pledge of $150 to 212-209-2950.
[07:29.890 --> 07:30.670]  That's not all.
[07:30.790 --> 07:32.990]  That's not all because we have something new this year.
[07:33.070 --> 07:34.950]  We have something we have not done before.
[07:34.950 --> 07:46.430]  We have managed to get all of the talks in high-quality MP4 format onto a 64-gig thumb drive, or flash drive, as some people like to call them.
[07:46.910 --> 07:56.530]  And what that means is that instead of getting 100 DVDs, you can just get one or possibly two thumb drives, depending on if we do two 32 gigs or one 64-gig.
[07:57.250 --> 07:58.490]  You will get those.
[07:58.710 --> 08:03.630]  These are completely DRM-free, meaning you can copy them and do whatever you wish with them.
[08:03.630 --> 08:07.690]  And it's just another way to get the content.
[08:08.170 --> 08:09.850]  That's a pledge of $125.
[08:10.490 --> 08:12.530]  So, 212-209-2950.
[08:14.150 --> 08:20.830]  What I'd like to do now, I'd like to launch into the highlights, some of the highlights of the Hope Conference.
[08:20.970 --> 08:21.450]  It's impossible.
[08:21.450 --> 08:33.450]  We could be on 12 hours, 24 hours, and we would not be able to do it justice because we had three tracks going pretty much all day, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday this past July.
[08:33.630 --> 08:40.370]  But this first talk is about hacking money from Alexander the Great to ZeroCoin by Finn Brunton.
[08:40.490 --> 08:41.970]  Did anybody see Finn's talk?
[08:42.450 --> 08:47.710]  This is one of the ones that I really wanted to see, but unfortunately organizing the conference prevented me from seeing.
[08:47.910 --> 08:52.730]  So I'm excited to hear a clip from it now and maybe to pledge and get to watch the whole thing.
[08:52.730 --> 08:55.510]  Okay, well, that sounds exciting enough to me.
[08:55.950 --> 09:01.850]  Yes, so a pledge of $125, you'll get all of the talks.
[09:01.850 --> 09:04.730]  All the talks, A, B, and C track on a thumb drive.
[09:04.850 --> 09:07.570]  $150, you'll get all the talks on DVDs.
[09:08.070 --> 09:14.890]  $75, you'll get a hacker calendar signed by your favorite and not favorite hosts of Off the Hook.
[09:15.430 --> 09:18.970]  212-209-2950.
[09:19.310 --> 09:25.410]  Let's go back to the Hope Conference in mid-July and hear an excerpt from Hacking Money.
[09:25.690 --> 09:27.430]  Money is a form of allegiance.
[09:27.770 --> 09:29.770]  This is where we're going to start circling back to cryptocurrencies.
[09:30.430 --> 09:32.330]  So what do you have an allegiance to?
[09:32.670 --> 09:38.790]  Well, maybe it's the local economy of the colonies and eventually the notes issued by the revolutionary government of the United States.
[09:39.070 --> 09:40.710]  These are printed by Benjamin Franklin.
[09:41.310 --> 09:42.010]  I love his little...
[09:42.010 --> 09:49.150]  If you see over there on the note on your right, the counterfeit is death in the kick-ass metal gothic font there.
[09:50.810 --> 09:52.410]  But also notice the leaf print.
[09:52.530 --> 09:53.510]  I just want to point this...
[09:53.510 --> 09:56.130]  Look at what an amazing badass Franklin could be.
[09:56.290 --> 10:02.570]  He had done these books for a British naturalist who had wandered around in America getting leaf prints.
[10:02.710 --> 10:08.210]  And Benjamin had figured out how to print the leaves against plaster, cast metal against that.
[10:08.330 --> 10:12.190]  And he soon realized, wait a second, these leaves are really easy for me to print.
[10:12.290 --> 10:18.010]  They're really hard for people to reproduce by hand if they're trying to engrave their own plates to counterfeit this money.
[10:18.270 --> 10:22.130]  He had discovered something like the PNP problem of stuff.
[10:22.390 --> 10:27.170]  He had found a way of using something that was easy to verify but very hard to fake.
[10:27.930 --> 10:29.750]  Anyway, Franklin was pretty amazing.
[10:30.450 --> 10:35.710]  But yeah, so maybe you have an allegiance to these new colonies and their weird half-assed system of money with leaves on it.
[10:36.870 --> 10:44.550]  Or maybe you have an allegiance to the Limerick Soviet where you are actually being issued money in which you are being promised by the workers of Limerick.
[10:45.210 --> 10:46.770]  It only lasted for a few months.
[10:46.990 --> 10:52.630]  Or maybe you have an allegiance to the idea that human time is the only really valuable commodity.
[10:52.830 --> 10:59.570]  In which case, you very likely held notes from Uzziah Warren's time store in Cincinnati in the 1820s.
[10:59.590 --> 11:06.870]  This was an incredible project which really did attempt to denominate the value of everything in the time a skilled person would spend on it.
[11:07.150 --> 11:07.850]  So who's skilled?
[11:07.990 --> 11:16.350]  Warren debated for a while and then eventually settled on carpenters, which is why the benchmark for value here is hours a skilled carpenter can work and corn.
[11:16.570 --> 11:20.110]  Those are the major sort of modes of exchangeability.
[11:20.610 --> 11:40.650]  Or maybe it's the anarchist economics of Silvio Gesell who wanted to build local demurrage currencies, which is to say currencies that actually lose value with time deliberately to put people who hold money on the same footing as people who hold things like food or crops or other things that can kind of rust or rot or go away.
[11:41.890 --> 11:47.710]  But I love this so much because this is the flip side of one of Gesell's Freigeld notes.
[11:47.930 --> 11:49.930]  This is money that has its own man page.
[11:50.130 --> 11:56.730]  This is money that has its own instructions for use and manifesto explaining why you should be using it, which is pretty awesome.
[11:57.050 --> 12:05.410]  And needless to say, because this is so wonderfully geeky, naturally there's a cryptocurrency version now too, Freycoin with an incredibly elaborate system of related things.
[12:05.530 --> 12:07.890]  If there's a Freycoin person here, please come talk to me.
[12:07.970 --> 12:08.690]  I love you guys.
[12:08.690 --> 12:09.750]  You are so amazing.
[12:11.030 --> 12:14.810]  Or maybe, hell, let's look at something that doesn't even look like money as we recognize it.
[12:15.690 --> 12:24.850]  Maybe it's something like tally sticks, a physical database made out of wood that lets you keep track of who has rights to which cow on a particular alp.
[12:25.070 --> 12:32.490]  This is a Swiss set of tally sticks here, and like it says at the bottom, this really does keep track of 87 cows among 23 different people.
[12:33.730 --> 12:43.230]  The beauty of it is that you can actually make these out of wood, carve them in certain ways, split them so that it's impossible for someone to change theirs without changing the other because otherwise you identify the difference.
[12:43.750 --> 12:46.290]  And don't necessarily laugh at this as a mechanism.
[12:46.590 --> 12:55.250]  The entire financial architecture of Britain for centuries was built on tally sticks issued by the Exchequer, made from the willows that grew by the Thames.
[12:55.830 --> 12:57.750]  They did big money with this stuff.
[12:57.930 --> 13:03.170]  You know, money you owed to the king, money the king owed to you, the barons gambling land away, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[13:03.170 --> 13:08.210]  They don't get the prominence they deserve because when they decided to modernize their financial system, they burned them.
[13:08.570 --> 13:10.830]  Because, you know, who wants to have these embarrassing relics around?
[13:10.910 --> 13:18.550]  So they destroyed this beautiful wealth of financial history and also overheated the chimney and burned down parliament, which didn't turn out...
[13:19.270 --> 13:25.230]  So to have a little Jason Scott interlude here, this is further proof don't throw things away.
[13:25.510 --> 13:27.810]  Don't needlessly destroy things you don't need to destroy.
[13:28.070 --> 13:34.750]  You can never tell when you're trying to like, you know, scrub all those old hard drives that you might accidentally like degauss everything.
[13:34.970 --> 13:35.290]  Who knows?
[13:36.470 --> 13:43.290]  So this is all to say, money is a significant part of what Benedict Anderson, the great political theorist, called imagined communities.
[13:43.350 --> 13:53.150]  The way we feel that we belong in a deep sense to groups, countries, nations, peoples, whom we'll never entirely know, who may not even have territory or formal structure.
[13:53.510 --> 13:57.510]  Money is a way that we can sort of vote, that we can ally ourselves with things.
[13:57.970 --> 13:59.410]  But of course, we all do this.
[13:59.530 --> 14:01.430]  We all show which allegiances we have.
[14:02.150 --> 14:07.950]  Everyone in this room has probably done multiple transactions in United States Federal Reserve notes today.
[14:08.170 --> 14:09.870]  And those are based on trust, too.
[14:10.190 --> 14:21.550]  Both that we trust that the notes we're accepting and passing aren't counterfeit, and in a deeper sense, the Federal Reserve will not print too much money at once, and thereby render what we hold valuable, or less valuable, or even worthless.
[14:21.950 --> 14:24.510]  And this, of course, requires backing in multiple forms.
[14:24.630 --> 14:26.970]  This is a very brief interlude, but I couldn't resist.
[14:26.970 --> 14:29.310]  This confidence in money is so fascinating.
[14:29.590 --> 14:44.330]  Because to mean that money is not easily counterfeited, they have to put an amazing amount of technological thought into the architecture of physical currency, ranging from reading systems, which no longer really serve this purpose because there's not a lot of value in the metal and coins.
[14:44.510 --> 14:56.030]  But back in the old days, it was designed so you couldn't trim the edges of the coins off with a very sharp knife to get the little fine filings of silver while still letting the coin keep its initial face value.
[14:56.550 --> 15:00.870]  So yeah, they had to widely implement this so they could really see when you were starting to scrape stuff away.
[15:01.490 --> 15:04.630]  Isaac Newton had people drawn and quartered for doing things like this.
[15:06.070 --> 15:09.130]  This used to be a way more barbaric field than it is now.
[15:09.350 --> 15:15.270]  The sheer amount of technology that goes into securing a single note is an absolutely extraordinary thing.
[15:15.410 --> 15:19.910]  And forget about the thermoreactive inks and the security threads and all the rest of it.
[15:20.010 --> 15:24.310]  Let's talk about one of my personal favorite things, which I bet a number of you are familiar with because this is hope.
[15:24.730 --> 15:32.750]  Which is, when you look at a US-20, notice the little yellow 20s that are scattered around in a cloud on one corner of the bill.
[15:32.890 --> 15:38.970]  And then notice the O's in that cloud which fall into an arrangement called the Urien Constellation.
[15:39.450 --> 15:49.910]  Which is the subject of a collective agreement among quite a lot of different currency issuing countries and central banks and mints and also the people who work on the firmware for color photocopy machines.
[15:50.370 --> 15:56.050]  That something that has the Urien Constellation in it will not let itself be scanned or photocopied.
[15:56.290 --> 15:59.090]  It will not generate a page as a result of that.
[15:59.210 --> 16:00.050]  It is identifiable.
[16:00.290 --> 16:02.910]  You should look into the patents for this because the patents are fascinating.
[16:03.070 --> 16:03.670]  They're very thoughtful.
[16:04.270 --> 16:09.250]  And this is kind of a real world version of the William Gibson sci-fi idea of the ugliest t-shirt in the world.
[16:09.250 --> 16:12.130]  The t-shirt that exempts whoever is wearing it from being able
[16:21.190 --> 16:23.570]  into trying to figure out because it's not just the Urien constellation.
[16:23.890 --> 16:36.130]  There's fascinating work going into trying to figure out what it is that is in money that makes it so that things like Adobe Photoshop can recognize when you're attempting to scan a note in or make changes to banknotes from particular countries.
[16:36.490 --> 16:38.970]  People are trying to sort of break down precisely how that works.
[16:39.950 --> 16:45.330]  Yeah, the policing of images of notes again to maintain confidence in the currency is an extraordinary project.
[16:45.550 --> 16:51.650]  You have to write to this dude in order to get high resolution images of banknotes that you can do things with.
[16:51.750 --> 16:55.970]  You have to make a case to this guy and send a letter to his office which is just delightful to me.
[16:57.310 --> 16:57.790]  Wow.
[16:58.210 --> 17:03.410]  That was an excerpt from Hacking Money from Alexander the Great to ZeroCoin.
[17:03.490 --> 17:31.070]  One of the talks given at HopeX this past summer here in New York City by Finn Brunton and boy what enthusiasm what mischief in his tone there because this is something we all find fascinating and it's it's contagious I know you want to hear the rest of this and you can you can hear the rest of it you can see the rest of it by pledging to WBAI calling 212-209-2950 I bet you're looking at a $20
[17:31.070 --> 17:39.410]  bill right now to see what Finn was talking about well as long as you're looking at that $20 bill why don't you think about where that might do some real good.
[17:39.770 --> 18:06.570]  This radio station is the place 212-209-2950 you'll get every single DVD copy of every single talk that took place at this momentous hacker conference in New York City for a pledge of $150 you'll get all of the talks on a 64 gig thumb drive for $125 and you can get an autographed hacker calendar for $75 whatever you choose every bit helps It's 212-209-2950.
[18:06.850 --> 18:07.850]  Bernie, what do you think of that talk?
[18:08.190 --> 18:09.210]  That was fascinating.
[18:09.530 --> 18:16.350]  I've always been... In fact, I was involved with a talk years ago about identification documents and how people counterfeit them and stuff.
[18:16.530 --> 18:19.110]  It was like 12 years ago, I hope.
[18:19.470 --> 18:22.530]  And that was with Terrence.
[18:23.070 --> 18:26.690]  And this is a way better... Finn's a much better speaker than I am.
[18:26.850 --> 18:30.390]  And he makes that topic fascinating.
[18:30.550 --> 18:32.250]  You want to know more about it.
[18:32.330 --> 18:33.830]  You want to keep listening for the next word.
[18:34.750 --> 18:36.930]  And I hope it's full of that kind of stuff.
[18:37.090 --> 18:37.750]  Yeah, it really is.
[18:37.990 --> 18:48.250]  So if you're listening to the show right now and you want to hear about 100 speakers talking like this about fascinating topics that make you want to know more, give us a call.
[18:48.390 --> 18:50.230]  212-209-2950.
[18:50.530 --> 18:54.230]  You're really supporting WBAI, but this is a fantastic thank you gift.
[18:55.530 --> 18:57.190]  212-209-2950.
[18:57.690 --> 18:58.130]  $125.
[18:58.290 --> 19:04.330]  You can get them on a flash drive, $150 on DVDs, or you can even just get the hacker calendar for $75.
[19:04.630 --> 19:08.810]  Or you can get all of them, or two of them, or all sorts of different combinations.
[19:09.470 --> 19:11.550]  Even if you want, just pledge more.
[19:11.830 --> 19:13.730]  And then, you know, we'll fundraise less.
[19:14.050 --> 19:14.750]  We'll all win.
[19:14.890 --> 19:23.370]  And we take credit cards, and we also have payment plans, where if you want to pay a certain amount, have it deducted once a month, we can do it that way as well.
[19:23.570 --> 19:32.210]  The important thing is that you're supporting this particular place, this radio station, and allowing this dialogue to happen, because a lot of people hear about it through WBAI.
[19:32.330 --> 19:33.670]  Is that the buddy program?
[19:33.790 --> 19:34.530]  Are we still doing that?
[19:34.650 --> 19:35.650]  We're still doing that as well.
[19:35.750 --> 19:35.990]  Yes.
[19:36.270 --> 19:38.930]  You can become a BAI buddy for $10 a month.
[19:39.130 --> 19:40.170]  There's all sorts of possibilities.
[19:40.570 --> 19:44.550]  Call 212-209-2950, and they will explain it all to you.
[19:44.690 --> 19:53.550]  What we want to do here on the air is show you how cool this is, how amazing what we are offering is in the bigger scheme of things.
[19:53.570 --> 19:56.710]  You will not find something like this at other radio stations.
[19:56.730 --> 19:58.330]  You won't see that dialogue anywhere.
[19:58.330 --> 20:07.730]  I mean, we really try to cover this stuff week to week as best we can, but when you have this material from these speakers, they're real experts.
[20:07.910 --> 20:12.310]  I mean, these people know the stuff and are very passionate, as you said, about what they're talking about.
[20:12.510 --> 20:24.110]  You could hear in Finn's tone just how excited he was to share it, to share it with other smart people, like-minded people, but to spread that knowledge around and grow the conversation.
[20:24.410 --> 20:28.550]  That tone, that really says it all to me because I hear that tone so often.
[20:28.730 --> 20:31.490]  I heard that tone when Adam Savage gave a talk at one of our conferences.
[20:32.010 --> 20:37.870]  It's just basically wanting to know more, wanting to dive into it and share the knowledge.
[20:38.030 --> 20:41.270]  It's really the epitome of what hacking is all about.
[20:41.490 --> 20:44.370]  And I like to think that our talks were very diverse.
[20:44.590 --> 20:50.090]  We had all different kinds of subject material being presented, but that was the thread, the underlying thread throughout it all.
[20:50.710 --> 21:00.370]  So I'm very, very proud that we pulled it off, that so many people came together, and that such a positive view was shared with the world.
[21:00.670 --> 21:05.270]  And I'm hoping that people call and pledge and become a part of this.
[21:05.270 --> 21:21.870]  Consider this an extension of stuff we've tried to cover, stuff that you can add to your library and turn to as like an independent study, stuff that's more in-depth and technical, stuff that maybe is a little bit older and rather instructive of stuff today.
[21:22.050 --> 21:27.730]  But it's stuff that we are aware of and we want to share that information, get it out there to you.
[21:27.870 --> 21:29.970]  And this gift is a great way of doing that.
[21:30.250 --> 21:34.390]  So I have a piece of paper informing me that the clip we played was seven and a half minutes long.
[21:34.390 --> 21:43.130]  So what that means is that there's another about 50 minutes just of Finn's talk telling you more things that you never would have otherwise learned about money.
[21:43.310 --> 21:48.650]  And, you know, not like boring things that banks tell you about money, but really fascinating stuff, the history of money.
[21:48.770 --> 21:53.530]  You can see the visuals that he mentioned that we couldn't display over the radio.
[21:53.710 --> 21:59.290]  And then you get like 99 more talks of similar quality and duration.
[21:59.450 --> 22:04.630]  And you get all this for your pledge of $125 if you want it on a thumb drive.
[22:05.290 --> 22:07.250]  $150 if you want it on DVDs.
[22:07.410 --> 22:10.970]  You can pledge more, you can pledge less, although we won't be able to send you the premiums.
[22:11.230 --> 22:13.150]  212-209-2950.
[22:13.210 --> 22:13.890]  Give us a call.
[22:13.970 --> 22:18.430]  And what's really cool is that we haven't even mentioned the fact that we had Edward Snowden as one of our speakers.
[22:19.610 --> 22:31.710]  Even if we didn't have Edward Snowden as one of our speakers and Daniel Ellsberg, and so many luminaries that are household words, this still would be more than worth what is being offered for right now.
[22:32.030 --> 22:32.990]  This is history.
[22:33.210 --> 22:35.210]  This is what drives us.
[22:35.330 --> 22:39.130]  This is something that you will treasure for many, many years to come.
[22:39.270 --> 22:45.670]  And we're offering it to you in formats that you will have no trouble copying and preserving in whatever means you wish.
[22:45.810 --> 22:50.510]  I do want to move on to the next clip, which has to do with something completely different in the hacker world.
[22:50.590 --> 22:59.970]  And this is what's cool about the hacker world is that it's not just about phone calls and operating systems and figuring out passwords and things like that.
[23:00.130 --> 23:01.570]  The hacker world is huge.
[23:01.730 --> 23:07.050]  And in this particular clip, we're going to hear from somebody involved in what's known as the repair movement.
[23:07.570 --> 23:12.850]  Tiffany Radd, who has been on this program before and has been to a number of our conferences as well.
[23:13.410 --> 23:29.470]  In this clip, she will explain just what it is that she's involved with and some things you might not know about the I'm sorry about that about the technology that that you might be purchasing thinking thinking that you might actually own something, when in fact,
[23:29.810 --> 23:33.170]  you don't 212-209-2950.
[23:35.070 --> 23:36.690]  Hey, I'm glad to be back at hope.
[23:36.950 --> 23:42.470]  I've given some other presentations here in the past, actually, eight years ago, I think was my first time here presenting at hope.
[23:42.830 --> 23:46.810]  What we're going to do is each one of us is presented are prepared about a 10 minute presentation.
[23:47.110 --> 23:53.630]  I'm going to be talking to you about something that I do with cars and an interesting project I did with a piano.
[23:54.110 --> 23:57.750]  And I'm adding some computers to some stuff that I have that is old.
[23:57.930 --> 24:02.990]  But one of the themes that we're going to be discussing is a question of when you buy something, do you really own it?
[24:03.050 --> 24:04.710]  And how much of it do you own?
[24:06.970 --> 24:11.150]  So this is not my car, but I didn't want to offend any particular manufacturer.
[24:11.150 --> 24:14.890]  So I put one that looked very obnoxious, but it's a vehicle.
[24:15.230 --> 24:19.310]  And below, if you can see, that is a piano from the Civil War era.
[24:19.590 --> 24:22.990]  And I'm going to tell you a story about how I work on both of these.
[24:23.590 --> 24:25.130]  Why pianos and cars?
[24:25.310 --> 24:27.350]  I am repairing one of these two.
[24:28.250 --> 24:29.610]  And the other one I'm hacking.
[24:29.830 --> 24:33.690]  I've worked for the past few years accessing car computers.
[24:33.850 --> 24:42.270]  And one of the things that I want to get from this when I access a car computer is ownership of your privacy, of where you go, GPS locations, things like that.
[24:42.350 --> 24:43.670]  How much of that do you own?
[24:44.690 --> 24:53.890]  And the truth of the matter is, when you buy one of these two, and it's pretty obvious which one it is, you don't own the software that's running in your vehicle.
[24:53.890 --> 24:55.250]  You have a license to it.
[24:55.330 --> 25:09.450]  So while you spend a great deal of money purchasing your car, when it comes to what you want to do with your car's computer, if you want to turn things off or on, there are times when you may violate the warranty on your car, if there are things that you don't want being accessed,
[25:09.690 --> 25:12.310]  such as your location, things like that.
[25:12.870 --> 25:23.910]  Your car, most likely, if it's newer than, well, actually over the past 10 years, if it's older than 10 years old, you probably have a car before this time period that I'm talking about, but there are hundreds of computers on your car.
[25:24.310 --> 25:28.770]  And there's one sort of big brain in the car, that's the best way to describe it, called the CAN bus.
[25:29.050 --> 25:32.530]  And being able to access that is actually quite tricky, and I'm going to tell you why.
[25:32.830 --> 25:44.270]  But the higher end vehicle that you have, the more computers that it has in the car, the more that you will have a license to a lot of different pieces of the computers and software that's running in it.
[25:45.310 --> 25:55.110]  So the one of the questions I often get, and one of the things that when I got into talking about car hacking, was can you legally access your car's computers?
[25:55.390 --> 26:10.010]  And I'm going to tell you about some, a new agreement between the OEMs, the original like manufacturers of the vehicle, and some, some parts manufacturers and, and some organizations that really said, listen, I, you know, you may have a car, whatever it might be,
[26:10.190 --> 26:10.970]  American or foreign.
[26:11.210 --> 26:23.810]  If you don't want to take it to the dealer, and you want to take it to like the auto mechanic down the street, because you want that person to fix it, or you want to fix it, one of the problems that you're going to have, and I think everyone in here that owns a vehicle and drives it,
[26:23.970 --> 26:37.110]  except for all of you in New York, I suppose, you're going to come across the problem where the car computer, just having them, the dealer or a mechanic plug it in to the diagnostic computer, that's a hundred dollars right there.
[26:37.570 --> 26:48.850]  And then some of the codes that need to be removed from your car, once the repairs have been made, you know, when that thing pops up like check engine light or whatever, to turn that off, it often requires that diagnostic computer to do it.
[26:49.230 --> 27:01.210]  That diagnostic computer usually costs between fifteen to twenty thousand dollars, so for a small mechanic, he's not going to buy one for every manufacturer of the, you know, this one's American, this one's, you know, Japanese.
[27:01.810 --> 27:02.870]  That's what it would take.
[27:03.130 --> 27:13.590]  So a lot of the parts manufacturers got together and told the OEMs, we don't want this anymore, because we, you're destroying our opportunity to repair our own vehicles, and for the mechanic down the street.
[27:14.110 --> 27:19.230]  So what they did is they got together and they said, we're going to have something called the Right to Repair Act.
[27:19.450 --> 27:34.170]  And the Right to Repair Act, at this point, effectively, is kind of a moot point, meaning it's not actively discussed anymore, and I'll tell you why, and it's a good reason why, but I think that we need more, more legislation on this, especially when it comes to our vehicles and what does it store about us.
[27:34.530 --> 27:43.850]  If you go beyond a certain point accessing your car computer, such as if you have to break cryptography, you are triggering a part of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[27:44.090 --> 27:48.830]  And what that says is, if you break this, there can be civil and criminal measures against you.
[27:48.950 --> 27:51.790]  And you probably may have avoided the warranty on your car.
[27:51.990 --> 27:57.470]  So actually getting into the computer and making repairs that way is very hard for for the average consumer to do.
[27:57.630 --> 28:02.230]  And frankly, for those of us that do do car hacking, this is complicated as well.
[28:02.970 --> 28:10.890]  So, like I mentioned, some independent parts chains, such as Jiffy Lubinatozone in particular, were very active in this.
[28:11.030 --> 28:19.110]  But they lobbied for laws that would allow some standardization to be shared with consumers and shared with the Jiffy Lubinatozone.
[28:19.410 --> 28:26.110]  So, as an alternative to the Right to Repair Act, which passed in Massachusetts and Oregon, there's something else now.
[28:26.450 --> 28:30.650]  And what this is, is this was a great thing so far.
[28:30.730 --> 28:39.790]  We have further to go, but as of January 2014, independent repair shops, excuse me, can access these diagnostic codes.
[28:39.910 --> 28:42.250]  And these codes are specific to each manufacturer.
[28:42.410 --> 28:43.430]  There's some that are standardized.
[28:44.230 --> 28:46.610]  For federal emissions control standards.
[28:46.790 --> 28:48.090]  But most of them are very specific.
[28:48.330 --> 28:54.110]  So if you don't know what Ford uses for, like your transmission slipping, this type of stuff is going to be shared.
[28:54.550 --> 28:57.030]  Now, here's the question that a lot of people have asked me.
[28:57.390 --> 29:00.330]  Okay, so this is going to be available soon.
[29:00.510 --> 29:02.550]  It's not all available just yet.
[29:02.950 --> 29:04.170]  But what does this mean?
[29:04.710 --> 29:10.870]  If you're a car hacker, one of the questions is, are you considered to be covered under this agreement?
[29:11.130 --> 29:13.650]  And the answer to this is, not exactly.
[29:13.910 --> 29:17.270]  You're not an independent car mechanic.
[29:18.470 --> 29:26.690]  Some of the states for the Right to Repair Act wanted mechanics, and they had a licensing procedure for that, to be able to access some of this information about your car.
[29:27.350 --> 29:30.870]  I don't have a mechanics license, but I'm accessing this about vehicles.
[29:31.070 --> 29:32.630]  But I do know that they're research vehicles.
[29:32.630 --> 29:33.610]  We void the warranty.
[29:33.610 --> 29:34.930]  You know, oh well.
[29:35.530 --> 29:39.150]  But one of the problems is, the dealers still have control.
[29:39.450 --> 29:43.710]  Now, some have gone to some independent repair shops.
[29:44.050 --> 29:50.070]  But as a consumer that you purchase your vehicle, you may not be able to get access to all of these.
[29:50.290 --> 29:52.330]  So that's still a little bit unfortunate.
[29:52.750 --> 29:56.150]  So one of the other questions people ask me is, all right, what about other consumer goods?
[29:56.270 --> 29:58.250]  Do I own the right to stuff that I buy?
[29:58.250 --> 30:00.170]  And generally the case is yes.
[30:00.410 --> 30:01.930]  When there are computers in it, maybe no.
[30:02.290 --> 30:09.010]  So one of the projects that I wanted to do is, I also like to salvage and repair old things, antiques.
[30:09.270 --> 30:12.410]  And sometimes it's fixing up antiques.
[30:12.530 --> 30:15.150]  And I find, you know, personal satisfaction in doing that.
[30:15.290 --> 30:19.950]  And when I looked at something like this that was for sale on eBay, this is a square grand piano.
[30:20.230 --> 30:22.590]  They were very popular in the late 1800s.
[30:22.610 --> 30:24.730]  And the one I got was from 1857.
[30:25.050 --> 30:26.430]  So Civil War era.
[30:26.570 --> 30:27.950]  I mean, this was a beautiful instrument.
[30:28.690 --> 30:32.850]  Often this is purchased and it's scavenged for the ivory keys.
[30:33.210 --> 30:35.170]  The wood is rosewood.
[30:35.350 --> 30:38.270]  So that has, I guess, value in it if people chop it up.
[30:38.350 --> 30:40.730]  But I found a woman that was selling this on eBay.
[30:40.870 --> 30:41.430]  And I said, you know what?
[30:41.470 --> 30:42.590]  I like fixing things.
[30:42.750 --> 30:43.550]  This is a challenge.
[30:43.750 --> 30:44.950]  I am not a musician.
[30:45.170 --> 30:47.310]  I can play the piano, but not very well.
[30:47.550 --> 30:48.630]  But I had this idea.
[30:48.730 --> 30:53.490]  I'm going to buy this and I'm going to add some computers to it, some servo motors, maybe a Raspberry Pi.
[30:53.730 --> 30:59.150]  And I want to create a sort of like an open source player piano project.
[30:59.930 --> 31:04.270]  So I saw this online and I went ahead and bought it for $300.
[31:04.810 --> 31:08.450]  And I said, if I can do this with cars, can I do this with something like a piano?
[31:09.230 --> 31:12.910]  And there's my piano in the top picture sitting in my living room there.
[31:12.990 --> 31:14.230]  And I love this.
[31:14.450 --> 31:15.690]  It's quite wonderful.
[31:15.810 --> 31:18.170]  All the keys work, except in moving it.
[31:18.290 --> 31:20.410]  One key doesn't work, but I'm going to figure it out.
[31:20.890 --> 31:23.370]  But that's the challenge with this stuff, with repairing.
[31:23.630 --> 31:26.150]  It's a shame when people throw this out.
[31:26.270 --> 31:27.970]  I mean, this is a very beautiful instrument.
[31:28.210 --> 31:34.110]  Or strip it for its parts when you can put a little bit of time into it and you can make something yours and something that's very unique.
[31:34.430 --> 31:37.490]  I found out that there are two screws underneath the keyboard.
[31:37.610 --> 31:40.270]  When you take those out, there are knobs in front of the keyboard.
[31:40.410 --> 31:43.510]  You can pull everything like the guts of the piano out and work on it.
[31:43.610 --> 31:48.310]  And that's where I plan to put the servo motors and some information from that project.
[31:48.630 --> 31:51.970]  I'm going to be releasing as much as I can, you know, that's useful online.
[31:53.250 --> 31:55.130]  This is what's incredible about this.
[31:55.290 --> 31:59.130]  When I bought this piano, I didn't quite know a whole lot about it, except I wanted to try this.
[31:59.210 --> 32:00.170]  I love player pianos.
[32:00.290 --> 32:02.790]  So what I did is, I love the sound of this.
[32:02.890 --> 32:05.630]  And I couldn't, I didn't want this to be thrown out.
[32:05.670 --> 32:06.530]  I hope you can hear it.
[32:07.730 --> 32:08.450]  Maybe not.
[32:09.130 --> 32:10.810]  I have the audio plugged in, but...
[32:11.310 --> 32:12.150]  Okay, there you go.
[32:12.910 --> 32:15.270]  Alright, so this is not my piano.
[32:16.090 --> 32:20.590]  There is a company in North Carolina that buys up these old pianos on eBay.
[32:20.810 --> 32:23.130]  They say, don't throw it out, we'll buy it from you.
[32:23.530 --> 32:25.510]  And they fix them up and they sell them.
[32:25.910 --> 32:33.150]  And so this is where repairing things, in addition to being like a very personally rewarding project, it can actually be financially rewarding too.
[32:33.250 --> 32:35.770]  And this was a great surprise to me.
[32:36.230 --> 32:40.630]  So what I did is, I love this piano and this is my piano.
[32:41.270 --> 32:42.450]  So I bought it for $300.
[32:42.910 --> 32:47.130]  Now, this was selling and it actually sold, it looks like, for $45,000.
[32:49.050 --> 32:50.870]  So I'm not going to sell mine.
[32:50.870 --> 32:51.770]  I have no plans to.
[32:51.910 --> 33:01.850]  But when you buy something that's scrap or junk and you put the time to fix it up, whether because you love it or it is a financial investment, repairing things, this was quite shocking.
[33:01.970 --> 33:05.950]  And what I'd like to do is computerize it and make it a player piano in my house.
[33:06.070 --> 33:15.770]  So I'm taking something very old, adding some stuff that's very new, and I'm going to release as much as is useful to all of you, if you're interested in an open source project for player pianos.
[33:16.350 --> 33:22.550]  So that's my project about repairing things new, like vehicles and old.
[33:22.750 --> 33:30.870]  And it's useful to preserve things instead of throwing them out, I think, at times and saving things from the junk pile that have historical value.
[33:31.170 --> 33:37.750]  And with vehicles and things that you buy that have software running in it, just be aware of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
[33:37.950 --> 33:41.790]  And you may not own as much of the new products that you think you do.
[33:42.210 --> 33:42.890]  Thank you.
[33:48.400 --> 33:53.840]  And that's an excerpt from Hope X, Tiffany Rad speaking on the repair movement.
[33:54.380 --> 34:00.180]  Wow, it opens up eyes so much to just think about hacking cars, hacking player pianos.
[34:00.360 --> 34:05.120]  There really is nothing that you can't get involved with and think like a hacker about.
[34:05.120 --> 34:13.080]  Yeah, it really reminds me of how far we've got to go for laws that are sort of becoming really huge umbrellas for stuff.
[34:13.220 --> 34:15.420]  And they've been on the books for quite a while.
[34:15.420 --> 34:27.860]  It's just that we're now testing the boundaries of them and they're sort of encompassing more and more of the devices and systems that we depend on in one way or another.
[34:28.040 --> 34:29.540]  So that's really crucial.
[34:29.740 --> 34:35.440]  It's tough for me to hear as a tinker and a mechanic that you would license an independent mechanic.
[34:36.080 --> 34:36.320]  Why?
[34:36.660 --> 34:40.900]  In what reality is that acceptable?
[34:41.260 --> 34:45.860]  It made me cringe to hear her say that in any kind of seriousness.
[34:46.180 --> 34:47.420]  It's the reality that we accept.
[34:47.700 --> 34:51.000]  And when we do accept it, it becomes an absurd reality.
[34:51.280 --> 34:52.180]  Oh, it's utter boulder dash.
[34:52.320 --> 34:53.000]  Yeah, thank you.
[34:53.100 --> 34:54.280]  I agree totally.
[34:54.860 --> 35:02.040]  And nowhere will you get that more than hearing all the speakers at this conference who genuinely get it.
[35:02.120 --> 35:06.340]  They get the power of the individual and the fact that we can figure things out.
[35:06.500 --> 35:08.240]  We can build alternatives.
[35:08.660 --> 35:10.740]  So I'm very inspired by this talk.
[35:10.920 --> 35:17.840]  And again, this is just one of the 100 or so talks that are being offered tonight as a special deal for this fundraiser.
[35:17.940 --> 35:20.100]  212-209-2950.
[35:20.520 --> 35:21.400]  Pledge of $150.
[35:21.400 --> 35:25.160]  You'll get every DVD of the Hope X Conference.
[35:25.180 --> 35:28.220]  It's a huge stack of DVDs, about 100 of them.
[35:28.680 --> 35:33.060]  For a pledge of $125, you'll get all of the talks on a 64-gig thumb drive.
[35:33.500 --> 35:38.120]  And you'll be able to copy those and play them on whatever device you choose.
[35:38.460 --> 35:44.880]  And also for a pledge of $75, we're offering the 2015 Hacker Calendar autographed by all of us here at Off the Hook.
[35:44.980 --> 35:47.880]  But please call 212-209-2950.
[35:48.680 --> 35:51.620]  It's harder for us now because we don't see the phone lines lighting up.
[35:51.740 --> 35:52.340]  We get emails.
[35:52.800 --> 35:55.280]  And I haven't seen that many emails coming in.
[35:55.360 --> 36:00.040]  I don't know if it's a delay or people are just transfixed listening to the radio and not dialing.
[36:00.140 --> 36:02.100]  But folks, we have to get those calls.
[36:02.260 --> 36:05.240]  That's part of the whole thing we're doing here tonight.
[36:05.680 --> 36:07.360]  We're playing amazing content.
[36:07.600 --> 36:10.460]  And you will be riveted by what we have coming up.
[36:11.040 --> 36:13.020]  But we need to hear from you.
[36:13.120 --> 36:14.020]  We need that support.
[36:14.020 --> 36:16.760]  Because otherwise, this radio station goes away.
[36:16.940 --> 36:17.960]  This show goes away.
[36:18.360 --> 36:26.420]  And so many people that were drawn into this world as a result, people of the future, won't be able to in the same way.
[36:26.560 --> 36:27.820]  So please invest.
[36:28.160 --> 36:38.620]  Invest in this place in much the same way that people invest in old pieces of technology, like player pianos, that wind up turning into something amazing and unique.
[36:38.720 --> 36:43.260]  While this place has so much potential, so many good things are on the radio here.
[36:43.800 --> 36:45.620]  And you can help that continue.
[36:45.840 --> 36:48.060]  212-209-2950.
[36:48.460 --> 36:50.480]  Pledge whichever amount you wish.
[36:50.700 --> 36:53.800]  But what we're offering tonight, I think, is unprecedented.
[36:54.200 --> 37:01.120]  I just wanted to say that the talks we're presenting are in full video on these archives.
[37:01.340 --> 37:04.320]  We will include the audio clips with this package.
[37:05.000 --> 37:10.300]  But these talks are in standard definition, full video.
[37:11.220 --> 37:13.920]  It's, as you said, an MPEG-4 format.
[37:13.920 --> 37:17.800]  So it's pretty portable as far as where you want to play it.
[37:17.840 --> 37:19.880]  The thumb drives are great because you can actually plug them into something.
[37:20.080 --> 37:35.100]  But if you are listening to this and you're picturing stuff, and maybe they're talking about examples and visual aids, keep in mind that you can get the actual video content of the talk, see what they're actually talking about.
[37:35.320 --> 37:50.340]  Maybe they're raising an example or showing a slide or two, graphs, anything like that is definitely going to be included in the video clips themselves and will definitely give you a richer experience as far as those talks go.
[37:50.480 --> 37:55.540]  And these videos are as good quality as is possible.
[37:55.960 --> 38:01.900]  Uh, so, uh, it's, it's definitely worth, uh, it's also, uh, less than they are usually offered for.
[38:02.140 --> 38:11.780]  And, uh, since those do sell at the price that they are usually offered for, the fact that they're being offered for less tonight, I think is, uh, is, is a pretty awesome deal in and of itself.
[38:12.000 --> 38:14.420]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[38:14.980 --> 38:23.040]  We do need to see a couple of calls come in at least during this break before we move on to the next clip, which, uh, is guaranteed to, uh, to impress you as well.
[38:23.160 --> 38:25.020]  Bernie, but perhaps you can get some people to call in.
[38:25.420 --> 38:27.140]  Hi, this is amazing content.
[38:27.380 --> 38:34.260]  I mean, I, I was at Hope X like, uh, all of us on the show were, but, uh, none of us got to hear all of the talks and see them.
[38:34.680 --> 38:35.960]  And, um, it's great.
[38:36.160 --> 38:37.580]  Uh, I know Tiffany, she's fantastic.
[38:37.780 --> 38:53.040]  She, she's the kind of person who comes to hope you will meet, you know, lots of people who are tinkerers and experimenters and curious people that like to push boundaries and like Finn and, and Tiffany and other people we're going to, uh, uh, talk about later tonight are,
[38:53.040 --> 39:03.100]  uh, uh, the kind of information you can get by calling tonight, 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0 to support WBAI, but to get, what is it, more than a hundred hours of program?
[39:03.580 --> 39:05.120]  It's, uh, it's so much.
[39:05.280 --> 39:07.060]  And, uh, you mentioned a hundred speakers before.
[39:07.180 --> 39:12.100]  It's actually more like a hundred and fifty because we have about a hundred talks and some of them have more than one person on them.
[39:12.200 --> 39:21.660]  But if you were to basically just listen to one talk, uh, every, every day, you would basically have amazing talks for the next three months at least.
[39:22.340 --> 39:26.440]  And, uh, you, you, you, I guarantee, I, I, I will personally guarantee this.
[39:26.580 --> 39:27.560]  You will be inspired.
[39:27.760 --> 39:30.640]  You will be inspired by a lot of what you watch.
[39:30.940 --> 39:34.920]  Um, and, and, uh, you will wind up creating something interesting.
[39:35.080 --> 39:37.780]  I, I, I'm pretty sure of that, but learn a lot.
[39:37.960 --> 39:38.360]  Absolutely.
[39:38.640 --> 39:39.220]  Learn a lot.
[39:39.560 --> 39:42.220]  I, you know, again, I hope calls are coming in.
[39:42.320 --> 39:43.920]  We don't see the, the phones lighting up.
[39:44.040 --> 39:46.260]  We get emails a few minutes after they, they come in.
[39:46.580 --> 39:49.700]  Uh, but we need to see at least one come in.
[39:49.860 --> 39:52.340]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[39:52.880 --> 39:57.080]  Uh, pledge $125 for the flash drive with all of the talks from Hope X.
[39:57.500 --> 40:01.060]  Uh, pledge $150 for all of them in DVD format.
[40:01.660 --> 40:05.540]  And you can also pledge $75 to get a hacker calendar autographed by Off The Hook.
[40:05.820 --> 40:08.380]  Uh, 2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[40:08.540 --> 40:10.360]  We want to play more clips from the conference.
[40:10.520 --> 40:11.740]  It's just, it's amazing.
[40:11.820 --> 40:21.260]  I'm really looking forward to this because even though I saw some of these talks and I, I didn't see very many, admittedly, I still love listening to them because they are just that interesting.
[40:21.540 --> 40:26.420]  And, and, and the quality of, of conversation has really gotten pretty high, I think.
[40:26.680 --> 40:27.880]  They get you fired up too.
[40:27.920 --> 40:29.000]  I'm sorry, I can't get off this.
[40:29.100 --> 40:40.660]  I mean, I, as I do more, uh, as a self-described in an independent mechanic while yawning than, than 10 quote-unquote licensed mechanics.
[40:40.760 --> 40:42.320]  You have your fists clenched and everything.
[40:42.440 --> 40:44.320]  You really do seem to have been worked up by this.
[40:44.400 --> 40:45.240]  I just, I can't even.
[40:45.560 --> 40:45.860]  All right.
[40:45.980 --> 40:46.160]  All right.
[40:46.240 --> 40:47.680]  Just, you're gonna have to move on.
[40:48.040 --> 40:48.400]  I'm...
[40:48.400 --> 40:49.440]  Mike, get him a drink of water.
[40:49.580 --> 40:51.300]  I think, uh, that would be useful.
[40:51.960 --> 40:52.880]  Um, well, okay.
[40:53.000 --> 40:54.660]  So, uh, you might get angry too.
[40:54.860 --> 40:59.960]  That could happen if you listen to some of these talks, because we do talk about injustice, some hard topics.
[41:00.660 --> 41:06.860]  Um, if you just go to, um, uh, x.hope.net, you will see a listing of all the talks that we have.
[41:06.900 --> 41:23.420]  But I can, I'm looking at the, um, the program now and, and, and so many different things that we, um, uh, we focused on biohacking, for instance, uh, or, uh, the DECSS case from, from many years ago, geolocation, visualization for hackers.
[41:23.700 --> 41:29.400]  Some of these terms you might not be familiar with, but if you watch the talks, you're going to learn a whole heck of a lot.
[41:29.440 --> 41:31.300]  And I see, we are getting calls, which is great.
[41:31.440 --> 41:43.920]  And that, um, I think that, that fulfills what I was hoping to see from people, but please keep the calls coming in because we need a strong response to this in order to keep this radio station on the air.
[41:44.060 --> 41:46.840]  We're 50,000 watts in the middle of the FM dial in New York city.
[41:46.980 --> 41:48.460]  That's a pretty good hack right there.
[41:48.720 --> 41:50.060]  We need to keep that going.
[41:50.320 --> 41:50.720]  Yeah.
[41:50.780 --> 42:03.200]  I mean, the other thing you get, as you said, with your pledge, in addition to the thumb drive or the DVDs or the calendar or all of the above, or whatever you pledge for, uh, is you keep us on the air, you keep the station on the air.
[42:03.380 --> 42:09.160]  And it's very real to say that the conference hope could not happen without this program.
[42:09.420 --> 42:20.280]  We are able to connect with so many different communities through this radio station that we would not be able to do through other means and bring these interesting talks, uh, like Finn and Tiffany.
[42:20.640 --> 42:22.780]  And can I tease the next one?
[42:22.860 --> 42:23.360]  Is that allowed?
[42:23.600 --> 42:24.540]  Go ahead and tease.
[42:24.700 --> 42:30.620]  So the next, the next clip we're going to play is, uh, Edward Snowden, who I think needs no introduction on this program.
[42:31.040 --> 42:40.580]  And, uh, we had him at Hope, uh, obviously by video, but we had in person at Hope Daniel Ellsberg from, if you don't know him, you're, you should be ashamed as well.
[42:41.260 --> 42:43.340]  Um, oh, you should be ashamed for not knowing things.
[42:43.460 --> 42:44.780]  Basically, this is how you learn.
[42:45.280 --> 42:45.960]  Uh, all right.
[42:45.960 --> 42:48.400]  Daniel Ellsberg, the, the famous leaker of the Pentagon papers.
[42:48.540 --> 42:54.540]  This is the, they had spoken privately before, but we had at Hope the very first time that they had spoken together publicly.
[42:54.940 --> 43:03.300]  And, uh, you know, as we've said before, those of us who help organize the conference, it's very hard to tear ourselves away and watch a talk, but this one I made sure to.
[43:03.540 --> 43:12.100]  And it was really fascinating to see, uh, the two of them together, how they agree and, and more fascinating how they disagree on some matters.
[43:12.540 --> 43:16.840]  And, um, we could not do that if we did not have this radio station.
[43:17.200 --> 43:19.320]  So 212-209-2950.
[43:19.320 --> 43:28.940]  And we'll thank you by giving you, uh, the talks we've mentioned 97 more talks and, uh, and some more, uh, radio programs as well.
[43:29.160 --> 43:29.560]  Absolutely.
[43:29.920 --> 43:45.440]  And, uh, part of the joy of, of doing conferences and doing radio shows is bringing people together, whether that's having Daniel Ellsberg speaking to Edward Snowden live on stage, or having our listeners calling in and asking questions of somebody that we have on the air,
[43:45.480 --> 43:54.460]  or just basically being exposed to this material and, and a light bulb going off above your head and, and having ideas to do something different and something unique.
[43:54.800 --> 43:55.900]  That's all possible.
[43:56.040 --> 43:56.620]  It's all possible.
[43:56.640 --> 44:00.240]  And it's, um, it's, it's strengthened by the support of our listeners.
[44:00.920 --> 44:03.140]  212-209-2950.
[44:03.480 --> 44:05.700]  $150 gets you all of the DVDs.
[44:05.980 --> 44:12.080]  $125 gets you all the talks on a flash drive and $75 gets you the hacker calendar autographed by off the hook.
[44:12.340 --> 44:14.780]  Now let's go to one of the highlights.
[44:14.940 --> 44:24.300]  I say one of the highlights because there were so many highlights at Hope X, but this is the one you might've read about in the papers, Daniel Ellsberg and Edward Snowden.
[44:24.300 --> 44:25.180]  Uh, okay.
[44:25.440 --> 44:30.560]  So, um, I know there are some of you who felt you didn't applaud enough for Daniel's amazing speech.
[44:30.760 --> 44:31.580]  Here he is again.
[44:47.910 --> 44:54.250]  I also would like to introduce Trevor Tim from the Freedom of the Press Foundation, founder of the Freedom of the Press Foundation.
[44:54.750 --> 44:55.590]  He's going to be here.
[45:01.150 --> 45:05.970]  He will have selected some questions from Twitter that, um, that you guys have submitted.
[45:06.470 --> 45:17.630]  And, uh, I guess this is a good time to remind people on the press, this is not a press conference, so the questions we're going to ask Edward later come from our attendees and hopefully there'll be questions that you're interested in as well.
[45:18.370 --> 45:21.750]  Um, please just follow our guidelines and everything will be cool.
[45:22.470 --> 45:24.830]  Um, and that's, um, oh yeah, so I almost forgot.
[45:25.170 --> 45:33.350]  We have a third panelist who will be joining us from Russia, one of, uh, one of my real heroes.
[45:33.390 --> 45:37.730]  And I think many people in this room, many people in the hacker community, many people in America.
[45:39.310 --> 45:40.190]  Edward Snowden.
[45:40.410 --> 45:40.790]  Welcome.
[46:00.340 --> 46:01.220]  Hi guys.
[46:05.900 --> 46:06.980]  How is it all today?
[46:09.120 --> 46:10.580]  Good to be back in the new year.
[46:16.200 --> 46:16.900]  Can you hear me now?
[46:24.870 --> 46:26.990]  That last poll was actually for the FBI.
[46:27.190 --> 46:30.250]  I'm hoping we can help them pad off the indictment tonight.
[46:36.230 --> 46:40.350]  So I'm having a little bit of trouble here on the stage, but I think I can hear Dan's microphone.
[46:40.650 --> 46:50.850]  I want to start out by saying to Dan Ellsberg, thank you for everything you've done, for all of your service, both in the government and outside of the government.
[46:50.970 --> 47:04.230]  Everything you did for us as a nation, as a society, you have given us, you have given so many, so much, and told us the truth about what our government was doing at a time when the truth was very hard to get.
[47:05.790 --> 47:18.910]  And I have to say, I actually watched a documentary about your life as I was grappling with these issues myself, and it had a deep impact and really shaped my thinking.
[47:19.070 --> 47:20.310]  So thank you for everything you've done.
[47:29.430 --> 47:33.230]  Ed, I see you've shaved since I last saw you.
[47:34.970 --> 47:37.970]  I have to tell you, you didn't have to do that for this audience.
[47:42.390 --> 47:49.210]  Well, luckily, I've got plenty of black t-shirts, but I do not have Keith Alexander brand dad jeans.
[47:52.360 --> 47:53.920]  I'll save those for DEFCON.
[47:58.500 --> 48:05.740]  So, I'm going to try to stay largely out of the way and let these guys talk, but I think there's a few topics that we'd like to cover.
[48:06.280 --> 48:28.420]  And to start with, I was hoping Dan could describe what it felt like the first time he heard about Edward Snowden, his feelings on hearing his name and seeing what he had given the world, and if his feelings have changed since and how he's grown to feel about Edward Snowden.
[48:30.120 --> 48:31.940]  I can tell you exactly what I felt.
[48:32.880 --> 48:38.920]  Hope, actually, which had not been in great supply for me recently.
[48:38.920 --> 48:43.660]  When I saw the name of this conference, I had mixed feelings about it.
[48:44.560 --> 48:50.200]  My feelings of hope go up and down, and they haven't been too high.
[48:50.380 --> 48:57.040]  And there's no question, I felt that when Chelsea Manning was revealed.
[48:57.040 --> 49:11.820]  I used to, you know, I used to ask in a way, how often do you need a Pentagon Papers, which is a massive disclosure that is unequivocal of documents, that really shows, you know, one document doesn't do it, as Ed knows.
[49:12.540 --> 49:13.100]  And men don't.
[49:13.240 --> 49:16.500]  They can say, well, we changed that the next day.
[49:16.740 --> 49:23.340]  That was just some particular little department, some low-level person, originally, and they did that or something.
[49:23.480 --> 49:32.320]  So what you really need is a massive stuff, as in the Pentagon Papers, that shows, no, this is what they said the next day, and the day after that, and here was the official policy, and so forth.
[49:32.820 --> 49:35.840]  And I waited 40 years to hear that.
[49:36.100 --> 49:49.380]  And so I was pretty much losing hope that there would be anybody inside who was willing to risk his freedom, his life or her life and freedom, to put out what needed to be put out.
[49:50.280 --> 50:00.420]  Because if you put out a lot of stuff, and I want to get into this with you, Ed, it's technically, you have to be something of a specialist to put out a lot of stuff, and not be identified.
[50:01.040 --> 50:07.020]  So I was feeling not hopeful that it would come then just three years after Manning, comes Snowden.
[50:07.160 --> 50:09.520]  So there's no question, I thought, it is possible.
[50:10.320 --> 50:21.560]  And in fact, Ed, you once told me that you hoped, among other things to show that one could do this, and be successful.
[50:22.480 --> 50:34.580]  And I'd be interested to hear, actually, from you, what your measure, there's no question in my mind, you have been successful, but what you had in mind when you wanted to show that people could do this, because after all, you are out of the country, et cetera.
[50:36.040 --> 50:39.120]  Well, so there's a lot of things to address there.
[50:39.220 --> 50:40.180]  I mean, that's a big topic.
[50:40.300 --> 50:46.360]  But you said something that I want to respond to first, which was, you kind of touched on technology.
[50:46.440 --> 50:50.000]  You talked about how people recently are specialists.
[50:50.340 --> 50:56.980]  They're able to use specialist skills to gather information that's tremendously important to the public, but we've been denied access to it.
[50:57.120 --> 51:09.440]  And they're able to publish that and get it around the world before anyone's able to stop it, before they're able to kill the story, and before they're able to basically shut the public out of the room of government.
[51:09.440 --> 51:12.280]  You know, they sort of divorce us from our democracy.
[51:12.720 --> 51:20.240]  And the key for me there is that technology empowers dissent.
[51:20.580 --> 51:25.240]  This is something we've seen again and again, and people forget this because they think about it only in modern times.
[51:25.340 --> 51:26.940]  They only think about it in the recent examples.
[51:27.020 --> 51:31.920]  They think about me, they think about Manning, they think about other people who followed in the same sort of thread.
[51:32.060 --> 51:34.680]  But they forget that technology actually enabled you.
[51:34.680 --> 51:40.600]  People forget about the fact that you were, you know, in a garage with a Xerox machine.
[51:40.860 --> 51:47.700]  You know, a copy machine might not seem like a killer app to a lot of people, but that enabled you to get this back to the public.
[51:47.960 --> 51:53.640]  And the same Xerox machine that gave you that gave us Samizdat in the former Soviet block.
[51:54.360 --> 52:12.080]  And what that tells me, and what I think is important for our society, and I don't just mean in the United States, I mean around the world, is to recognize that technology empowers individuals, it empowers voices, it empowers democracy in a way that can turn one man into a movement,
[52:12.640 --> 52:14.880]  or a woman into a world power.
[52:15.140 --> 52:19.000]  And that has fundamentally changed the way that we relate to our government.
[52:19.300 --> 52:22.860]  And more importantly, the way our government relates to us.
[52:23.220 --> 52:25.760]  You know, they say when people fear the government, we have them.
[52:26.220 --> 52:30.920]  But when the government fears people, we have democracy, we have liberty, we have freedom.
[52:31.120 --> 52:32.480]  And I think that's very true.
[52:32.500 --> 52:33.800]  And we see that more and more.
[52:34.080 --> 52:53.220]  When the government has been left sort of in the dark, even when we have whistleblowers who come up and stand up at great risk to bring things to the public, people like Bill Binney, Thomas Drake, Ed Loomis, who end up getting, you know, these guys get pulled out of the shower,
[52:53.340 --> 52:56.820]  naked at gunpoint, in front of the families, their lives are destroyed, their careers are destroyed.
[52:57.180 --> 53:00.340]  They're discredited, you know, they're, they said they're disgruntled.
[53:01.100 --> 53:06.540]  There's these, these broad campaigns brought against them, but they didn't have hard evidence.
[53:07.240 --> 53:08.380]  They did everything right.
[53:08.500 --> 53:10.260]  They went through the system and the system destroyed them.
[53:10.400 --> 53:11.060]  The system buried them.
[53:11.060 --> 53:12.740]  And we see this happen again and again.
[53:13.240 --> 53:14.980]  Something very important happened today.
[53:15.260 --> 53:16.680]  A lot of people haven't seen it yet.
[53:16.740 --> 53:25.580]  In the Washington Post, there's an opinion article by a former State Department official who has basically said, he's bound by classification.
[53:25.580 --> 53:32.580]  He had to get the, the article screened by the government to redact any classified information before he could publish it.
[53:32.720 --> 53:48.980]  But the Washington Post ran it and he basically said, Executive Order 12333, which is one of the signals intelligence authorities, which allows the United States to intercept basically communications that are occurring overseas, is being used to collect incredible amounts of communications,
[53:48.980 --> 53:57.220]  not just on people around the world, not just innocents everywhere, but specifically on Americans, which is precisely what the United States government has said they are not doing.
[53:58.980 --> 54:06.700]  And this is, this is the kind of thing that's, that's illustrative because what he revealed was explosive.
[54:06.940 --> 54:08.460]  It should be on the front page of every newspaper.
[54:08.720 --> 54:17.260]  But instead, it's an opinion article on one newspaper because there's not clear, irrefutable evidence that brings the president to the podium.
[54:17.440 --> 54:27.500]  It brings the Congress to, you know, the press and says, we have to have a national conversation where the public is given back its seat at the table of government.
[54:27.620 --> 54:36.040]  And we, as a society, are given the opportunity to decide where the lines should be drawn, not a few officials sitting behind closed doors.
[54:36.140 --> 54:45.880]  And I think that is a new power that technology has given us over the last hundred years that is increasing in frequency, strength, magnitude.
[54:46.480 --> 55:03.360]  And if we pair that with, with a responsibility to use it appropriately, to police ourselves, the way our technology grows, and not sleepwalk into new protocols, into new usages, into new applications for these things.
[55:03.480 --> 55:11.220]  But we really think about the implications of putting, you know, our fids in our in our sneakers and our washing machines and the things we buy at the grocery store.
[55:11.640 --> 55:23.740]  We will have not a dystopian future, but we will have a democracy in which citizens around the world in every country are empowered, regardless of the policies of their government.
[55:23.880 --> 55:29.920]  And we, at the very minimum, will know the truth of our world and the truth of our governments, and it will not be able to be hidden from us anymore.
[55:39.910 --> 55:43.350]  And that was another excerpt from the HOPEX Conference.
[55:43.570 --> 55:47.670]  Edward Snowden and Daniel Ellsberg having a conversation.
[55:48.270 --> 55:51.730]  And that went on for about 90 minutes, a little more than 90 minutes, I believe.
[55:51.910 --> 56:01.370]  And it was just so incredibly interesting that we had rooms throughout the hotel and throughout the world just basically riveted to that dialogue.
[56:01.370 --> 56:05.690]  I think we had well over 10,000 people online.
[56:05.690 --> 56:06.330]  Is that right, Kyle?
[56:07.310 --> 56:11.390]  We were number one on the live stream, I believe.
[56:11.390 --> 56:26.930]  Right, but we have good reason to believe that that was syndicated and mirrored and rebroadcast up to and including, I heard 23,000, I think, more, maybe even more beyond that, that we weren't able to calculate.
[56:27.230 --> 56:34.770]  But we did have basically thousands and thousands of people around the world from almost every continent.
[56:35.010 --> 56:40.470]  And I think every continent watching live, something we'd never ever done before.
[56:41.310 --> 56:50.450]  And we really just wanted to get it right and make this really interesting conversation a highlight of the event.
[56:50.450 --> 56:52.190]  And it really went off.
[56:52.250 --> 56:56.930]  And we think provided a positive, really a positive look.
[56:57.090 --> 56:58.170]  I love that about it.
[56:58.250 --> 57:08.050]  He was focusing on what we're capable of and that we have a really fair, a lot to contribute.
[57:08.190 --> 57:11.630]  It was such a positive, such a positive event.
[57:11.950 --> 57:18.970]  I mean, just to see his expression when he got a standing ovation that lasted well over a minute from people in New York City.
[57:19.170 --> 57:21.270]  It was just... that was very emotional.
[57:22.190 --> 57:31.810]  And this is just one of the talks that we're offering here tonight for the pledge of either 125 or 150, depending on if you want flash drives or DVDs.
[57:32.750 --> 57:35.270]  You'll get about 99 more talks.
[57:35.550 --> 57:42.330]  They won't all be Edward Snowden, but they will be some aspect of the hacker world that I think you will be intrigued by.
[57:42.990 --> 57:45.190]  212-209-2950.
[57:45.190 --> 57:47.190]  I want to thank the people who have called in so far.
[57:47.610 --> 57:52.410]  But I also want to remind the people who have not called in, we really need to hear from you.
[57:52.570 --> 57:53.190]  It's vital.
[57:53.610 --> 57:55.890]  Because the dialogue is happening.
[57:56.090 --> 57:58.270]  We are having most incredible conversations.
[57:58.610 --> 58:03.210]  And it's inspirational to so many of us and so many new people as well.
[58:03.570 --> 58:09.490]  But to have the radio station as a way to get the message out is so crucial, so important.
[58:09.730 --> 58:10.970]  We don't have commercials.
[58:11.030 --> 58:12.530]  We don't even have underwriting.
[58:12.670 --> 58:13.890]  We just have you.
[58:14.130 --> 58:16.130]  And we need you to step up now.
[58:16.330 --> 58:17.570]  And we are giving you something back.
[58:17.710 --> 58:18.810]  We are donating the DVDs.
[58:18.890 --> 58:19.990]  We are donating the flash drives.
[58:20.170 --> 58:21.610]  We are donating the calendars.
[58:22.090 --> 58:24.410]  All we need you to do is invest in this place.
[58:24.550 --> 58:27.030]  Tell us that, yes, what you're doing is a good thing.
[58:27.530 --> 58:29.730]  And we will support the radio station.
[58:29.910 --> 58:31.850]  Keep this voice available.
[58:31.850 --> 58:34.850]  212-209-2950.
[58:35.070 --> 58:38.130]  We're getting a decent response, but I want to see a great response.
[58:38.130 --> 58:40.410]  And I think we really deserve that.
[58:40.550 --> 58:41.010]  All of us.
[58:41.110 --> 58:55.750]  Not just us here, but all of us listeners, people who keep the radio station on the air, people who organized the conference, people who spoke at the conference, it's important to respond strongly whenever something like this is made available.
[58:55.890 --> 58:58.510]  212-209-2950.
[58:58.930 --> 59:10.930]  Speaking of this place, I wanted to remind everyone that you are listening to 99.5 FM WBAI broadcasting from... No, no, no.
[59:10.930 --> 59:11.670]  You didn't make it legal.
[59:11.810 --> 59:13.650]  It's got to be WBAI New York.
[59:13.870 --> 59:14.370]  I'm sorry.
[59:14.710 --> 59:19.250]  99.5 FM WBAI New York.
[59:19.290 --> 59:29.110]  I already did it, so... Broadcasting from the lovely studios of WHCR here in Harlem, uh, and to the greater New York City area and, uh, and tri-state area.
[59:29.110 --> 59:36.670]  Let me also remind people that if you're tuning in to hear the personal computer show tonight, you'll be bitterly disappointed because it's not on.
[59:36.830 --> 59:38.590]  However, however, okay?
[59:39.350 --> 59:41.370]  No, don't, don't, uh, take drastic action yet.
[59:41.750 --> 59:46.790]  Next week, they will be on for two hours from 7 to 9 PM, and we will not be on.
[59:47.150 --> 59:48.990]  212-209-2950.
[59:49.290 --> 59:50.390]  Please pledge your support.
[59:50.570 --> 01:00:05.950]  Get the package of, uh, of 100 or so DVDs of Hope, uh, Hope Talks, all the Hope X Talks, or $125 for the flash drives that contain all the talks in MP4 high-quality format and, uh, easy to copy, easy to do whatever you wish with.
[01:00:06.390 --> 01:00:08.490]  Uh, and you also get audio files with that, too.
[01:00:08.550 --> 01:00:15.070]  I didn't mention that before, but, uh, we include audio files in case you just want to hear it on your MP3 player or whatever.
[01:00:15.730 --> 01:00:20.610]  Everything that, that, uh, we offer as far as the conference, um, um, material is available there.
[01:00:20.970 --> 01:00:25.210]  212-209-2950, and we also have the hacker calendars if you're interested in those.
[01:00:25.570 --> 01:00:26.530]  Autographed hacker calendars.
[01:00:26.710 --> 01:00:27.690]  75-hour pledge for that.
[01:00:28.130 --> 01:00:29.790]  212-209-2950.
[01:00:30.150 --> 01:00:32.390]  This is our autumn fundraiser here at WBAI.
[01:00:32.470 --> 01:00:35.970]  This happens every year, uh, but we are in a very pivotal stage.
[01:00:36.030 --> 01:00:40.150]  And I think that we are basically taking some very positive steps.
[01:00:40.370 --> 01:00:43.770]  Uh, we certainly are a lot more positive than we were a few months ago.
[01:00:44.030 --> 01:00:51.510]  And I, I say that speaking for us here at Off The Hook, uh, we have, uh, tried very hard to resolve the problems that, uh, we were facing.
[01:00:51.730 --> 01:00:52.650]  We have done that.
[01:00:52.810 --> 01:01:01.330]  Uh, if you are waiting for premiums, you will be getting them very, very soon because we have them on the way to us and we will get them to the station and they will be sent to you.
[01:01:01.450 --> 01:01:06.090]  As for these premiums, we are making sure that they go out nice and fast because we're donating all the materials.
[01:01:06.090 --> 01:01:10.410]  We're going to make sure they're delivered and, uh, we'll keep on top of this every step of the way.
[01:01:10.530 --> 01:01:12.910]  Please support us in our efforts.
[01:01:13.050 --> 01:01:15.450]  212-209-2950.
[01:01:15.790 --> 01:01:16.170]  Yes, Bernie.
[01:01:16.890 --> 01:01:17.370]  Hi, Manuel.
[01:01:17.530 --> 01:01:17.790]  Thank you.
[01:01:17.970 --> 01:01:40.830]  I just wanted to point out to our listeners tonight that, uh, uh, it speaks volumes that, uh, folks of the caliber of Daniel Ellsberg and Edward Snowden would, uh, lend their time and support for types of ideas that are, uh, promulgated by independent media,
[01:01:41.010 --> 01:01:43.690]  such as the HOPE Conference and WBAI.
[01:01:43.810 --> 01:01:51.150]  This is, this is the center of the universe for independent thinking and content that you can't get anywhere else.
[01:01:51.450 --> 01:02:01.330]  And, uh, uh, this radio station needs to stay on the air if people want to be able to access this kind of independent content.
[01:02:01.330 --> 01:02:03.850]  I want to play devil's advocate here for a second, Bernie.
[01:02:03.910 --> 01:02:05.850]  You say you can't get this anyplace else.
[01:02:06.470 --> 01:02:08.110]  Now, well, there's the internet.
[01:02:08.550 --> 01:02:10.110]  People can get this on the internet, can't they?
[01:02:11.730 --> 01:02:13.650]  They can get WBAI on the internet.
[01:02:13.790 --> 01:02:14.630]  It's not the same.
[01:02:14.670 --> 01:02:15.310]  Well, they can get us.
[01:02:15.450 --> 01:02:15.550]  Yeah.
[01:02:15.610 --> 01:02:17.030]  But I mean, they can get the ideas.
[01:02:17.250 --> 01:02:19.990]  They can get, uh, you know, alternative thoughts and dialogue, right?
[01:02:21.090 --> 01:02:25.110]  They can, but not, not this type of content.
[01:02:25.330 --> 01:02:38.290]  This is unique, very special type of content, um, that our listeners and attendees of HOPE Conference and WBA listeners have been drawn to for, for literally decades.
[01:02:38.870 --> 01:02:45.770]  In fact, uh, uh, uh, it's an anniversary or something tonight of, uh, this kind of thing.
[01:02:45.890 --> 01:02:50.990]  Actually, yesterday was the, uh, 26th anniversary of the first edition of Off the Hook.
[01:02:51.230 --> 01:02:51.850]  Yes, that's true.
[01:02:51.970 --> 01:02:58.650]  So for any radio show to stay on the air that long, there's got to be a, uh, a listener base that will support it.
[01:02:58.910 --> 01:03:02.990]  And, uh, we're very fortunate to have listeners who write to us every week, thanking us.
[01:03:03.490 --> 01:03:14.630]  Uh, I'm amazed how many people from around the world, uh, tune into this radio show and thank us for airing the kind of content we're airing tonight and every other week, uh, especially stuff from the HOPE Conference.
[01:03:14.810 --> 01:03:18.170]  So the most important thing is to keep this voice on the air.
[01:03:18.670 --> 01:03:20.910]  WBAI New York is, is a treasure.
[01:03:21.190 --> 01:03:23.670]  It would be a tragedy if it went off the air.
[01:03:23.830 --> 01:03:26.290]  No other, no other radio station is going to air this kind of content.
[01:03:26.510 --> 01:03:27.490]  Sometimes they don't thank us.
[01:03:27.610 --> 01:03:28.590]  Sometimes they curse us.
[01:03:28.710 --> 01:03:33.310]  And, but that's good too, because, uh, if it provokes a reaction of any sort, it means they're listening.
[01:03:33.450 --> 01:03:34.710]  It means they're engaged in the dialogue.
[01:03:34.710 --> 01:03:35.950]  And we, we want that.
[01:03:36.030 --> 01:03:40.650]  We want to provoke that kind of a reaction and just have a back and forth.
[01:03:40.670 --> 01:03:42.010]  And we've done that so many times.
[01:03:42.010 --> 01:03:43.650]  We want to continue doing that in the future.
[01:03:43.890 --> 01:03:55.670]  And just think of this place as hundreds and hundreds of people and different radio shows, radio shows that have not even started yet in the future that will exist because this place will be there for them.
[01:03:55.950 --> 01:04:00.870]  Think of people driving in their cars, just listening to the radio and stumbling upon WBAI.
[01:04:01.030 --> 01:04:02.170]  That is the magic of radio.
[01:04:02.350 --> 01:04:05.490]  That is what's different than, than the internet where you have to seek it out.
[01:04:05.590 --> 01:04:06.970]  You have to know exactly what you're looking for.
[01:04:07.190 --> 01:04:16.370]  Uh, I like to think a lot of people find us by accident and there might be somebody driving around right now who's basically saying, what is this that I just found on the radio?
[01:04:16.770 --> 01:04:26.310]  Well, this is WBAI and you can support it by calling 212-209-2950 and, uh, becoming part of the magic that has existed since 1960.
[01:04:26.810 --> 01:04:28.510]  Those listeners keep us on our toes.
[01:04:28.610 --> 01:04:39.770]  I will say there's a fair amount of things we've said and, uh, not said, and, uh, we've been corrected and, uh, rebuffed and, well, there's always, uh, uh, a lot more to what we talk about.
[01:04:39.930 --> 01:04:47.350]  And boy, do we get, uh, a really good sense of where we're wrong and, and where we, uh, uh, maybe, uh, want to know more.
[01:04:47.530 --> 01:04:48.570]  And, and that, that's great.
[01:04:48.710 --> 01:04:49.250]  Watch this.
[01:04:49.430 --> 01:04:51.190]  Utica is the capital of New York.
[01:04:51.550 --> 01:04:51.850]  All right.
[01:04:51.890 --> 01:04:52.530]  Now we're going to get mail.
[01:04:52.670 --> 01:04:53.230]  So, okay, go ahead.
[01:04:53.450 --> 01:04:57.770]  I just wanted to make that point and, um, we'll, we'll just wait for the mail to come in.
[01:04:58.350 --> 01:05:00.030]  Of all the things to make up.
[01:05:00.310 --> 01:05:04.530]  Well, I just, I'm, I'm trying to, I'm trying to prove Kyle's point that, uh, our listeners do keep us on our toes.
[01:05:04.910 --> 01:05:09.070]  If we have any listeners in Utica though, they should pledge after, after a promotion like that.
[01:05:09.190 --> 01:05:12.390]  Well, yeah, I did mention your city that no one else has ever heard of.
[01:05:12.530 --> 01:05:13.550]  Now, now I got them mad.
[01:05:14.810 --> 01:05:16.550]  212-209-2950.
[01:05:16.950 --> 01:05:17.770]  We are getting calls.
[01:05:17.850 --> 01:05:18.810]  Want to get more calls?
[01:05:19.010 --> 01:05:22.150]  Please show your support for WBAI.
[01:05:22.290 --> 01:05:23.350]  Show your support for Off the Hook.
[01:05:23.450 --> 01:05:25.310]  Show your support for the Hope X conference.
[01:05:25.870 --> 01:05:28.390]  And, uh, hopefully we'll have more conferences like that.
[01:05:28.530 --> 01:05:30.310]  Hackers on Planet Earth started in 1994.
[01:05:30.990 --> 01:05:37.070]  We've had all kinds of people, uh, come to the podium and, and, and share their ideas and inspiration.
[01:05:37.230 --> 01:05:39.210]  And that's the magic of the hacker world.
[01:05:39.430 --> 01:05:45.310]  And that's why the hacker world thrives on airways like WBAI because, well, it's, it's, it's freedom.
[01:05:45.550 --> 01:05:47.170]  It's, uh, it's, it's inspirational.
[01:05:47.170 --> 01:05:47.790]  It's creative.
[01:05:48.190 --> 01:05:53.910]  And, um, and, and you wouldn't be listening to us if you didn't share some of those, some of those feelings, some of those sentiments.
[01:05:54.410 --> 01:05:56.250]  212-209-2950.
[01:05:56.550 --> 01:05:57.770]  It's also, you know what else it is?
[01:05:57.850 --> 01:05:58.690]  It's also mischief.
[01:05:59.030 --> 01:06:07.510]  And one of our more popular talks at Hope X was a talk having to do with, of all things, elevator hacking.
[01:06:07.850 --> 01:06:08.210]  Yeah.
[01:06:08.710 --> 01:06:09.550]  Elevator hacking.
[01:06:09.770 --> 01:06:13.530]  There is nothing, nothing that the hacker world does not pay attention to.
[01:06:13.790 --> 01:06:31.230]  And in this, um, this excerpt that we have here, uh, we have Deviant Alam and Howard Payne who are speaking about, um, uh, just various facts about elevators, maintenance mode, uh, things that happen, um, with this particular type of technology.
[01:06:31.290 --> 01:06:32.430]  Now you may say, oh, it's dangerous.
[01:06:32.550 --> 01:06:33.370]  You shouldn't play around with that.
[01:06:33.450 --> 01:06:38.590]  And yes, they'll be the first to agree with you on that, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't know about it.
[01:06:38.730 --> 01:06:45.130]  It doesn't mean you shouldn't share information and, um, and, and try and, uh, and find the weaknesses and try to improve things.
[01:06:45.510 --> 01:06:45.910]  Yeah.
[01:06:46.310 --> 01:06:50.690]  Dangerous or, or that's against the rules or, or elevators are stupid.
[01:06:50.870 --> 01:06:52.770]  Who, why would I want to know anything about that?
[01:06:52.930 --> 01:07:02.490]  I mean, it's just a, it's, it's as, as exciting as a door or, or, or, um, a cabinet or, um, a lamp.
[01:07:02.490 --> 01:07:13.190]  We, we don't have any talks on hacking doors or cabinets as far as I know, but, um, but yeah, anything that's mechanical or involves programming of some sort as elevators do, you will learn things.
[01:07:13.230 --> 01:07:14.670]  This is a two hour talk by the way.
[01:07:14.750 --> 01:07:22.030]  And, and this is a talk that you get when you pledge either 125 or 150, depending on if you want the flash drives or the, um, or the DVDs.
[01:07:22.230 --> 01:07:30.250]  Uh, this is, this is one of the 100 or so talks that you will get, uh, dealing with one part of the hacker world or another.
[01:07:30.470 --> 01:07:34.350]  It's really awesome and amazing and you can't find it anywhere else.
[01:07:34.470 --> 01:07:38.710]  No other radio station has this 212-209-2950.
[01:07:39.030 --> 01:07:40.390]  Please make that call.
[01:07:40.510 --> 01:07:43.670]  Now let's listen to a little bit of elevator hacking.
[01:07:44.050 --> 01:07:44.530]  Yeah.
[01:07:44.670 --> 01:07:51.910]  The idea we, you know how many people you talk to your friends about having good backups and you say, well, have you ever actually like tried to restore from your backups?
[01:07:51.990 --> 01:07:54.310]  Have you ever wiped your system and seen if the restore worked?
[01:07:54.410 --> 01:07:56.270]  And it was like, no, that would be, that would freak me out.
[01:07:56.470 --> 01:07:58.470]  The elevator industry does this, man.
[01:07:58.670 --> 01:08:00.230]  They actually run these tests.
[01:08:00.670 --> 01:08:03.470]  What you're about to see looks like a catastrophic accident.
[01:08:03.990 --> 01:08:05.210]  This is not an accident.
[01:08:05.670 --> 01:08:16.430]  Everything you're seeing bypassing any number of safety mechanisms, which have all been jumped out by someone in the machine room, is crashing an elevator down into the pit buffer after 40 floors.
[01:08:17.770 --> 01:08:18.830]  And here we come.
[01:08:23.270 --> 01:08:26.610]  Someone like him manually was doing that from the machine room.
[01:08:27.670 --> 01:08:28.030]  Yeah.
[01:08:28.030 --> 01:08:31.410]  And it's actually cool because that's what you're trying to do in the situation.
[01:08:31.570 --> 01:08:33.770]  You want to make sure that the buffer is able to take a hit at that speed.
[01:08:35.150 --> 01:08:38.870]  You should not be doing this if you don't know what you're doing in the machine room.
[01:08:40.030 --> 01:08:42.630]  This guy is a 35-year industry vet.
[01:08:42.890 --> 01:08:47.570]  He's explaining that he came up with a clever solution for a clutter of spaghetti wiring.
[01:08:48.570 --> 01:08:50.190]  He's like, okay, I got my wires.
[01:08:50.250 --> 01:08:51.790]  And these wires carry what kind of current?
[01:08:53.350 --> 01:08:55.250]  They carry very nice, heavy current.
[01:09:03.770 --> 01:09:04.190]  Yeah.
[01:09:04.190 --> 01:09:06.730]  If you don't know what you're doing, jump ring contacts.
[01:09:07.030 --> 01:09:11.350]  If you don't know what you're doing at all in the machine room, you probably shouldn't be in the machine room.
[01:09:11.790 --> 01:09:12.210]  Right.
[01:09:12.530 --> 01:09:13.850]  Close this section out with that fun story.
[01:09:14.030 --> 01:09:14.270]  Sure.
[01:09:14.430 --> 01:09:21.890]  So we were saying before that somebody in the motor room can sort of change the parameters of the universe as it exists to the elevator controller.
[01:09:22.590 --> 01:09:28.190]  Now, anybody from New York City knows that when POTUS comes to town, everything shuts down.
[01:09:28.470 --> 01:09:28.810]  Right?
[01:09:29.030 --> 01:09:30.410]  Like gridlock everywhere.
[01:09:30.870 --> 01:09:35.270]  You know, no one can do anything because, you know, the big man's in town.
[01:09:35.850 --> 01:09:40.230]  The point being, though, that the president never just gets on an elevator.
[01:09:40.630 --> 01:09:41.970]  It's not just that simple.
[01:09:42.190 --> 01:09:42.470]  Right?
[01:09:42.650 --> 01:09:56.570]  In terms of actually securing it, I know that somewhere, somebody's got a pretty good idea that motor rooms need to be secured because when he comes to town and he has to ride an elevator, there will be a secret service agent in the motor room with an elevator mechanic.
[01:09:57.130 --> 01:10:01.670]  I don't want to say that the mechanic's kind of at gunpoint, but, you know, if he, you know, pretty much.
[01:10:01.990 --> 01:10:03.590]  Anything goes wrong with that elevator.
[01:10:03.690 --> 01:10:05.910]  It stops between floors or what's going on.
[01:10:05.990 --> 01:10:06.870]  They're on the radios.
[01:10:07.050 --> 01:10:09.950]  They're saying, get this thing moving down to the parking deck.
[01:10:10.090 --> 01:10:14.670]  Now, I don't care what you have to jumper out, kill all those safeties, move, move, move, move, move.
[01:10:14.670 --> 01:10:20.350]  The last verifiable elevator entrapment involving a president that I'm aware of was Lyndon B.
[01:10:20.470 --> 01:10:20.670]  Johnson.
[01:10:21.810 --> 01:10:23.230]  That must have sounded hilarious.
[01:10:23.590 --> 01:10:24.730]  I can just picture his voice.
[01:10:25.690 --> 01:10:32.390]  Speaking of listening to people's voices and talking and stuff in elevators, we're going to hit really quick on a little freaking section for you, if you don't mind.
[01:10:33.450 --> 01:10:33.750]  Sure.
[01:10:34.690 --> 01:10:37.170]  So, elevators have phones, right?
[01:10:37.990 --> 01:10:40.470]  Two-way voice communication shall be required.
[01:10:40.810 --> 01:10:42.730]  That's part of the elevator safety code.
[01:10:42.870 --> 01:10:48.290]  The idea is, that if you're in an emergency situation, you can simply hit a button.
[01:10:48.770 --> 01:10:51.470]  And I'm sorry, actually, I may have said voice communication shall be required.
[01:10:51.590 --> 01:10:54.530]  It's actually, voice communication shall not be required, to clarify.
[01:10:54.890 --> 01:10:58.870]  The idea being that if you're unable to communicate, maybe you just don't speak English.
[01:10:59.590 --> 01:11:13.010]  But for whatever reason, if you're not able to communicate the circumstances that there is an emergency, there's usually a pre-programmed message on those phones that when you hit the button, gets a dial tone, dials out, plays the message.
[01:11:13.310 --> 01:11:14.670]  Sometimes they dial 9-1-1.
[01:11:15.070 --> 01:11:16.390]  So, don't just hit the button willy-nilly.
[01:11:17.230 --> 01:11:21.790]  Now, what you're seeing here is an example of a non-compliant emergency phone.
[01:11:22.050 --> 01:11:28.490]  Now, not only do you need hands to operate this, but you need to be able to speak.
[01:11:28.790 --> 01:11:28.870]  Yeah.
[01:11:29.450 --> 01:11:30.830]  Now, here's the right kind of phone.
[01:11:30.990 --> 01:11:33.870]  It's just installed behind a panel that you need hands for.
[01:11:34.090 --> 01:11:35.610]  So, like, maybe that's compliant.
[01:11:35.750 --> 01:11:36.270]  I don't really know.
[01:11:37.070 --> 01:11:40.930]  But in general, understand that these are real phone lines.
[01:11:41.070 --> 01:11:44.470]  The elevator has a phone line running through its traveler cable to every car.
[01:11:44.610 --> 01:11:54.410]  If you can get to those phone lines, either up in the machine room, or maybe on the phone itself, who wouldn't want, like, just an unsecured phone line that they could do almost whatever they want with.
[01:11:54.550 --> 01:11:58.270]  There's nobody in this room would ever think of things they could, like, box on that phone line, right?
[01:11:58.890 --> 01:12:00.430]  A beige block or something?
[01:12:00.430 --> 01:12:00.550]  Yeah.
[01:12:00.750 --> 01:12:04.610]  So, most of these lines are sometimes limited to local calls only.
[01:12:04.790 --> 01:12:06.970]  But it's not about always dialing out.
[01:12:07.410 --> 01:12:11.850]  It's about dialing in, where we start to get interested in some of the intelligence fields.
[01:12:12.250 --> 01:12:18.130]  So, learning that phone line, like, calling and ID-ing that line, or the old 258 trick might used to work.
[01:12:18.270 --> 01:12:26.930]  Or just, you know, looking inside the panel, finding the phone number from there, or looking at the freaking, like, the sign outside of an elevator, why this is here?
[01:12:28.130 --> 01:12:29.370]  Anybody's guess is as good as mine.
[01:12:29.510 --> 01:12:35.610]  The only thing I came up with was that there were just such a frequent amount of entrapments that the building owner said, hey, let's put up a sign.
[01:12:35.730 --> 01:12:38.630]  So, this way, when someone's stuck, we can just call and find out what's going on.
[01:12:39.490 --> 01:12:49.410]  Most of these phones, however, elevator phones are designed to automatically pick up, silently, and be on speaker, after one ring, if you call them.
[01:12:50.050 --> 01:12:57.110]  So, if you were to call the elevator number, maybe you're just a real freaking big troll, and you want to make people think they're hearing voices all the time.
[01:12:58.570 --> 01:13:01.130]  And you just be like, I'm the elevator, I'm watching you.
[01:13:01.270 --> 01:13:03.070]  Help, help, they've turned me into an elevator.
[01:13:03.350 --> 01:13:03.530]  Yeah.
[01:13:07.320 --> 01:13:17.540]  But, the bigger problem than people being, you know, Jackie with this kind of stuff, is calling an elevator phone, and not saying anything at all, and listening to what's being said in the elevator.
[01:13:17.920 --> 01:13:24.120]  This is an actual concern, whether it's based on the phone system, or even some just have intercoms up in the machine room.
[01:13:24.460 --> 01:13:38.360]  When big people come to town, and let's say down in the beltway, people who officially don't work for the phone company, but kind of work for the phone company, and have a lot of clearance, are at the phone company, monitoring certain lines, saying, why is there activity on that line?
[01:13:38.680 --> 01:13:39.560]  Is somebody stuck in an elevator?
[01:13:40.900 --> 01:13:43.100]  Tell somebody to trace whatever's going on with that line.
[01:13:43.240 --> 01:13:44.840]  Somebody shouldn't be calling that elevator right now.
[01:13:45.160 --> 01:13:46.360]  Who's listening in, et cetera.
[01:13:47.120 --> 01:13:52.020]  But understanding how these phone systems work, you can do, if you're interested in this stuff, you can do a lot.
[01:13:52.360 --> 01:13:52.760]  Yeah.
[01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:59.780]  So, one of the most concerning things when I started researching elevator emergency phones was that I needed to change the combination on my luggage.
[01:14:03.300 --> 01:14:07.280]  So, but it's okay, because obviously this is, you know, security through obscurity.
[01:14:07.280 --> 01:14:09.340]  It's not like this information is published... Oh.
[01:14:11.360 --> 01:14:11.800]  Slide.
[01:14:12.380 --> 01:14:19.040]  So, again, even if it wasn't published online, right, it's not like they're just putting the instruction manual in the phone, in the phone cabinet, right?
[01:14:20.200 --> 01:14:20.640]  Yeah.
[01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:20.880]  Yeah.
[01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:21.700]  So, there's that.
[01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:22.360]  Like...
[01:14:22.360 --> 01:14:24.180]  Not even Nicolas Cage can believe this.
[01:14:27.950 --> 01:14:29.830]  Let's talk about some other unbelievable stuff.
[01:14:30.450 --> 01:14:33.350]  Let's talk about, for a minute, everything that's wrong in movies.
[01:14:33.710 --> 01:14:36.070]  Because Hollywood loves them some elevators, man.
[01:14:36.170 --> 01:14:37.110]  They're a great plot device.
[01:14:37.350 --> 01:14:39.890]  How many people have seen, you know, like, bulletproof elevators?
[01:14:40.290 --> 01:14:46.850]  Like, oh, they gotta get away, and they're shooting at me, but the elevator door has that nice dimpling on the inside, right, where the bullets are striking.
[01:14:47.570 --> 01:14:48.930]  That's all f***ing bollocks.
[01:14:49.170 --> 01:14:49.610]  That's nonsense.
[01:14:49.610 --> 01:14:51.110]  It penetrates the outer door, but not the inner door.
[01:14:51.230 --> 01:14:51.270]  Yeah.
[01:14:51.450 --> 01:14:53.230]  Because it slows down from the outer door.
[01:14:53.410 --> 01:14:55.770]  Like, the detective is chasing a criminal down the hall.
[01:14:55.910 --> 01:14:57.970]  And we know why movies like elevators, right?
[01:14:58.030 --> 01:14:58.770]  It's that suspense.
[01:14:58.990 --> 01:15:00.470]  So, is the door gonna close on time?
[01:15:00.550 --> 01:15:01.210]  Is he gonna get it?
[01:15:01.350 --> 01:15:01.970]  Oh, he's got his gun.
[01:15:02.110 --> 01:15:02.430]  BAM!
[01:15:02.990 --> 01:15:03.350]  No.
[01:15:03.710 --> 01:15:09.150]  Like, if he was a half step slower, he still would have shot right through that door and mowed down anyone inside.
[01:15:09.730 --> 01:15:10.990]  Elevators are not bulletproof.
[01:15:11.170 --> 01:15:14.550]  Please don't hide from an assailant in an elevator if you're in the middle of a gun battle.
[01:15:16.230 --> 01:15:23.750]  Everything you've ever seen with an elevator that involves, like, a crazy box and clipping wires, and I'm gonna hack-sore the box-sore and the Gibson... No.
[01:15:23.930 --> 01:15:25.730]  Like, what's he clipping to here?
[01:15:25.730 --> 01:15:29.610]  This is 3,000 miles to Graceland, and this is the scene where he's hacking the elevator in the casino.
[01:15:29.610 --> 01:15:32.710]  You know, he needs to, you know, get to some floor and not let security know he's there.
[01:15:32.950 --> 01:15:34.030]  So, it's interesting.
[01:15:34.190 --> 01:15:43.050]  He clips his alligator clips onto a timing crystal, right there, and onto the outside of an electrolytic capacitor there, on the emergency phone.
[01:15:43.570 --> 01:15:43.930]  Yeah.
[01:15:44.910 --> 01:15:51.790]  But he's got his big seven-segment display and everything, so he's, you know, he's rocking it out, and then he's gonna cut off the emergency phone that he just clipped to, so he's good.
[01:15:54.030 --> 01:15:57.230]  But yeah, all of these boxes that you see, I mean, this doesn't exist.
[01:15:57.230 --> 01:15:58.350]  It's all Hollywood magic.
[01:15:58.670 --> 01:16:03.790]  The only thing that's real in that scene is that he blacked out the camera, because most elevators, you know, have cameras nowadays.
[01:16:04.150 --> 01:16:05.390]  He didn't have to do that.
[01:16:05.450 --> 01:16:12.470]  If you're interested to know about a lot of elevator cameras, there's way easier ways than using stickers or black paint to disable them.
[01:16:12.690 --> 01:16:16.890]  One of the most popular ones in the industry, the Drakacam, you check the manual for this.
[01:16:17.110 --> 01:16:20.170]  The manual will show you it has a little remote control.
[01:16:20.430 --> 01:16:21.710]  Do you know what that remote control does?
[01:16:22.010 --> 01:16:26.350]  It turns the camera off if you just like, bleep, it's like a TV be gone for cameras.
[01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:33.380]  How about everybody's favorite elevator movie, right?
[01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:34.520]  Especially mine.
[01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:36.720]  Yes, Speed, of course.
[01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:45.720]  So there are so many interesting things right and wrong about this movie that we would just wind up sounding like these guys, buy us a drink later, or ask us in the Q&A, or ask us downstairs.
[01:16:46.460 --> 01:16:48.040]  We, like, Howard nerded out.
[01:16:48.140 --> 01:16:53.480]  We were watching the rate of plummet and doing some math, and they actually, it was, it's funny, ask us about Speed later.
[01:16:54.360 --> 01:16:58.100]  Everyone, however, has probably seen this plot device at some point or another in a movie.
[01:16:58.320 --> 01:17:01.900]  The idea of, oh, this person, get him in the elevator, and, you know, lobby security.
[01:17:02.160 --> 01:17:04.320]  I got someone coming down, arrest that man.
[01:17:04.540 --> 01:17:07.860]  But what does someone in an elevator do when they don't want to go out the normal way?
[01:17:08.020 --> 01:17:11.300]  Well, they flip the stop switch on their Otis series one chiclet fixtures.
[01:17:12.380 --> 01:17:14.660]  And then what the, they got the secret panel, right?
[01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:21.140]  They got the panel in the roof, which is never locked for some reason in movies and TV, even though it's always locked in real life from the outside.
[01:17:21.460 --> 01:17:22.260]  It's usually locked.
[01:17:22.440 --> 01:17:23.040]  Usually, maybe.
[01:17:24.020 --> 01:17:27.060]  But of course, you know, I'm just going to go up, and now they can't find me.
[01:17:27.240 --> 01:17:27.880]  Where'd he go?
[01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:29.900]  He's on the elevator.
[01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:30.800]  They didn't go anywhere.
[01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:34.080]  There's nothing else in that hoistway that you can get to.
[01:17:34.160 --> 01:17:35.600]  There's no ladders in the hoistway.
[01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:41.000]  There's no ducts that take you somewhere else to the basement where you find Marvin and get the radio to listen to the terrorists.
[01:17:42.180 --> 01:17:46.220]  The other thing about opening that top hatch is the safety string circuit.
[01:17:46.900 --> 01:17:51.580]  Elevators, as we said, have many different circuits of safety and many different ways of error conditioning.
[01:17:51.880 --> 01:17:59.220]  If anything goes wrong with the elevator that it thinks a door is open or an interlock is open, it'll stop the elevator completely right that moment.
[01:17:59.360 --> 01:18:00.400]  It'll say, whoa, something's not right.
[01:18:00.520 --> 01:18:01.060]  This ain't good.
[01:18:01.340 --> 01:18:03.780]  The top hatch is usually part of this string circuit.
[01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:04.960]  The door locks, etc.
[01:18:05.180 --> 01:18:07.380]  So you have like Terminator 2, right?
[01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:11.620]  They're running down the hall having a battle, of course, with their bulletproof elevator.
[01:18:12.040 --> 01:18:13.660]  Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
[01:18:13.760 --> 01:18:14.280]  Oh, we're safe.
[01:18:14.460 --> 01:18:15.400]  We got in there.
[01:18:15.560 --> 01:18:16.600]  We got to stop those bullets.
[01:18:16.980 --> 01:18:19.360]  But the T-1000 says, well, that's not going to stop me.
[01:18:19.460 --> 01:18:21.400]  I'm going to make my hands claw this thing open.
[01:18:21.620 --> 01:18:23.880]  Right at this moment, that elevator is not running.
[01:18:24.140 --> 01:18:30.180]  Because if the doors, the hoistway doors, part open like this, the safety string is broken, the cab is stopped.
[01:18:30.280 --> 01:18:32.000]  But in Hollywoodland, you know, that doesn't happen.
[01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:34.960]  You have an epic gun battle on top of the cab, etc., etc.
[01:18:35.800 --> 01:18:45.460]  They could have made this scene accurate if the T-1000 had turned his cybernetic alloy fingers, whatever, into a wire jumper, and he had completed the circuit, and they would have kept running.
[01:18:45.720 --> 01:18:47.180]  Yeah, maybe that was happening out of picture.
[01:18:47.300 --> 01:18:47.880]  We don't know.
[01:18:49.340 --> 01:18:53.180]  So, like, this is also popular whenever you see... and how many people love this movie, right?
[01:18:53.280 --> 01:18:53.940]  It's a great movie.
[01:18:56.720 --> 01:18:57.980]  So they got one thing right.
[01:18:58.240 --> 01:19:01.100]  Like, elevator screw arounds are dangerous in the hoistway.
[01:19:01.800 --> 01:19:03.320]  The rest of this is wrong, though.
[01:19:03.460 --> 01:19:05.380]  Like, other than River Phoenix, almost dying.
[01:19:06.020 --> 01:19:09.300]  There's no such, you know, there's no pushbacks and setbacks in the elevator.
[01:19:09.540 --> 01:19:12.000]  There's no corridors that take you somewhere else.
[01:19:12.640 --> 01:19:15.240]  There's no lights on the car top, usually like that.
[01:19:15.260 --> 01:19:16.100]  Well, not like that.
[01:19:16.500 --> 01:19:17.900]  And also, there's no door roller.
[01:19:18.020 --> 01:19:19.300]  There's no release rollers on the doors.
[01:19:19.440 --> 01:19:20.940]  So it's a fake hoistway for Hollywood, too.
[01:19:21.540 --> 01:19:27.120]  Pretty much the only movie that really got anything realistic I thought about an elevator was Usual Suspects.
[01:19:27.620 --> 01:19:29.840]  Because another... who likes Usual Suspects as a movie, right?
[01:19:31.820 --> 01:19:36.980]  So here you're actually going to see why someone as an elevator guy could be a cool assassin.
[01:19:37.200 --> 01:19:38.760]  He's even dressed like an elevator guy.
[01:19:39.100 --> 01:19:41.800]  Secondary career for you, taking out Kobayashi's lawyers, right?
[01:19:42.320 --> 01:19:45.000]  So if someone is... because why is this realistic?
[01:19:45.180 --> 01:19:46.320]  Because he's on the car top.
[01:19:46.460 --> 01:19:47.380]  He's riding the car top.
[01:19:47.600 --> 01:19:50.280]  So he can do pretty much whatever he wants with that elevator.
[01:19:50.480 --> 01:19:54.280]  He could absolutely let it platform, let it pick up this call.
[01:19:54.620 --> 01:19:58.240]  From the car top, McManus could go ahead and he could kill the lights.
[01:19:58.660 --> 01:19:59.740]  That would be totally feasible.
[01:20:00.640 --> 01:20:05.320]  McManus could open the top hatch and jumper out that safety string from the car top.
[01:20:05.460 --> 01:20:06.380]  So that's plausible.
[01:20:07.200 --> 01:20:11.240]  He could even, if he wanted to, drive this to where he wants to go.
[01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:13.920]  But instead, he says, press 20, do it now.
[01:20:14.080 --> 01:20:18.500]  Because maybe he's smart enough to know that inspection travel is much slower than automatic mode.
[01:20:18.500 --> 01:20:21.420]  So he wants to go really fast up there while they slap Kobayashi around.
[01:20:22.260 --> 01:20:25.960]  But in general, like, I mean, we kind of dropped that in because we thought some of those stories were funny.
[01:20:25.960 --> 01:20:30.280]  I don't know if you think that's realistic or not, but a lot of things in movies are not true.
[01:20:30.480 --> 01:20:33.120]  Ask us more stories if you want to know more about that.
[01:20:33.580 --> 01:20:40.860]  You want to know what really is not good in real life, however, we're going to flip it back to Howard and ways you as a building owner can stay out of legal hot water.
[01:20:42.160 --> 01:20:46.260]  Unfortunately, we don't have time to help building on a stay out of legal hot water.
[01:20:46.600 --> 01:20:53.260]  But that's just a little bit of a two hour talk on elevator hacking presented at the Hope X conference this past July.
[01:20:53.540 --> 01:21:04.300]  And if nothing else, I think the tip to not hide from your assailant in an elevator, if you're in the middle of a gun battle, that is very valuable tip that we have given out here on the radio.
[01:21:04.540 --> 01:21:08.020]  And there are so many more that you will get just from this one talk.
[01:21:08.020 --> 01:21:13.500]  But we are offering all of the talks, all 100 on a flash drive for $125.
[01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:19.100]  It's simply an incredible deal that is not duplicated anywhere else.
[01:21:19.220 --> 01:21:21.540]  212-209-2950.
[01:21:21.540 --> 01:21:23.720]  You'll get Edward Snowden and Daniel Ellsberg.
[01:21:23.800 --> 01:21:25.040]  You'll get the elevator hacking.
[01:21:25.260 --> 01:21:31.040]  You'll get the repair movement and hacking money, all the all the excerpts that we've played tonight.
[01:21:31.040 --> 01:21:34.340]  Plus, you will get so much more because all the talks are included.
[01:21:34.340 --> 01:21:37.060]  212-209-2950.
[01:21:37.140 --> 01:21:45.880]  There is no better introduction to the hacker world and to share the passion and the curiosity and the mischief that make up a part of it.
[01:21:46.200 --> 01:21:48.540]  This was our most incredible conference yet.
[01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:53.940]  And all the talks have been preserved and they're all available to you for a pledge of $125.
[01:21:54.120 --> 01:21:57.260]  You will get 64 gigs on a flash drive.
[01:21:57.380 --> 01:21:59.880]  212-209-2950.
[01:22:00.240 --> 01:22:04.940]  I would say this is probably the fastest way you could get this many talks.
[01:22:05.740 --> 01:22:13.300]  We are basically packaging it for you in a portable way that can be sent to you very quickly with very little packaging.
[01:22:13.580 --> 01:22:17.060]  It's quite a bit more when you get the 100 discs.
[01:22:17.580 --> 01:22:19.440]  And this way, you can take it with you anywhere.
[01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:26.280]  You could transfer it maybe to a server, a network server, so you could watch it in your home or take it with you traveling.
[01:22:27.940 --> 01:22:31.100]  Maybe you know someone that is in a remote area.
[01:22:31.100 --> 01:22:34.680]  They don't really have a way to stream any of this stuff or otherwise get it.
[01:22:34.820 --> 01:22:36.140]  You could give it to them as a gift.
[01:22:36.440 --> 01:22:37.580]  I mean, that's a great way.
[01:22:37.740 --> 01:22:40.580]  You know, you just mail it, remail it, whatever you have to do.
[01:22:40.840 --> 01:22:43.340]  It's a heck of a lot of data.
[01:22:43.560 --> 01:22:52.280]  I mean, really, this is the most we've ever packaged and it's a bit of new territory for us, but we want to make all of this content really easily accessible.
[01:22:52.280 --> 01:23:00.100]  And we worked really hard to post-produce and make sure there were no gaps, nothing missing, nothing out of out of whack with it.
[01:23:00.320 --> 01:23:05.100]  So we're pretty proud of this of this compilation.
[01:23:05.640 --> 01:23:07.700]  And we're really excited to offer it tonight.
[01:23:07.880 --> 01:23:10.140]  212-209-2950.
[01:23:10.580 --> 01:23:13.720]  And yes, we did put a lot of time into this.
[01:23:14.020 --> 01:23:29.760]  What you get when you get the flash drive is basically a file that has the descriptions of all the talks with buttons to play them or to hear the audio, or you can just basically copy the files themselves and listen to them that way.
[01:23:29.880 --> 01:23:31.640]  You get all the information that you need.
[01:23:31.820 --> 01:23:36.620]  It's not just a sloppily copied disk filled with files.
[01:23:36.780 --> 01:23:38.920]  No, it's got rhyme and reason to it.
[01:23:39.280 --> 01:23:40.800]  212-209-2950.
[01:23:40.800 --> 01:23:46.040]  Get all of the Hope X Talks for a pledge of $125 on a USB flash drive.
[01:23:46.120 --> 01:23:54.880]  And you can also get the DVDs for $150 if you prefer that old antiquated method, which I guess, you know, it just keeps getting smaller and smaller.
[01:23:55.120 --> 01:23:59.620]  USB, I mean, whoever would have thought even five years ago that we'd be able to do this.
[01:23:59.820 --> 01:24:02.260]  But technology marches on.
[01:24:02.400 --> 01:24:04.240]  I just don't know how much smaller can it possibly get.
[01:24:04.520 --> 01:24:05.820]  I guess it could get really small.
[01:24:05.900 --> 01:24:07.720]  I mean, they have even smaller just thumb drives.
[01:24:08.080 --> 01:24:08.280]  They do.
[01:24:08.340 --> 01:24:12.480]  I don't know what ones you got, but probably not the actual, you know, fingernail sized ones.
[01:24:12.480 --> 01:24:13.760]  I found a really cool thumb drive.
[01:24:13.860 --> 01:24:16.580]  I think I have it here in my pack.
[01:24:16.580 --> 01:24:20.920]  But it's actually, I think it's eight gigs, and it's made out of a little Lego brick.
[01:24:21.700 --> 01:24:22.060]  Wow.
[01:24:22.220 --> 01:24:26.180]  So you could actually pretend you're, well, why would you be carrying a Lego brick?
[01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:27.160]  Yeah.
[01:24:27.160 --> 01:24:34.420]  Well, if you're a kid, okay, if you're like eight or something, and you have Legos, you can now actually smuggle data in those Legos.
[01:24:34.780 --> 01:24:34.900]  Yeah.
[01:24:35.040 --> 01:24:35.620]  Think about that.
[01:24:35.740 --> 01:24:38.300]  Just eight Legos, you could fit the entire Hope Conference.
[01:24:38.500 --> 01:24:38.940]  That's true.
[01:24:39.100 --> 01:24:40.160]  It's really light.
[01:24:40.420 --> 01:24:40.860]  Sorry, Bernie?
[01:24:41.640 --> 01:24:42.820]  Uh, kids, give us a call.
[01:24:43.700 --> 01:24:46.160]  Uh, yes, but get your parents' permission first.
[01:24:47.060 --> 01:24:52.120]  Yeah, let's not, let's not do that whole, uh, whoever it was that said, uh, go into your parents' wallet and get the credit card.
[01:24:52.220 --> 01:24:53.320]  No, we're not saying do that.
[01:24:53.480 --> 01:24:53.920]  Don't do that.
[01:24:54.300 --> 01:24:55.320]  Get your parents' permission first.
[01:24:55.540 --> 01:24:59.220]  And just, just to avoid any doubt, we will not unfortunately be sending you Legos.
[01:24:59.440 --> 01:25:00.220]  No, no, no, no, no.
[01:25:00.240 --> 01:25:00.720]  Not this time.
[01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:03.200]  I'm just saying they're getting very small, very light.
[01:25:03.420 --> 01:25:08.480]  Um, and well, this is kind of the next, the next, uh, uh, iteration of that.
[01:25:08.640 --> 01:25:13.820]  And, uh, it's providing this incredible, uh, vehicle to get this info out.
[01:25:14.080 --> 01:25:15.220]  And that's what we're here.
[01:25:15.320 --> 01:25:16.100]  That's why we're here.
[01:25:16.180 --> 01:25:17.400]  That's what we're about.
[01:25:17.720 --> 01:25:24.040]  Um, like so many other programs at WBAI, what matters to us is the story.
[01:25:24.180 --> 01:25:28.720]  What matters to us is the discussion, the dialogue, the, the issues at hand.
[01:25:29.040 --> 01:25:30.460]  Sometimes it involves people.
[01:25:30.660 --> 01:25:50.360]  Sometimes it involves, um, things and, and, and, uh, infrastructure, um, and personalities, maybe even some drama, some, some really, uh, um, socially, uh, crucial things, part, part human nature, whatever it is, there's, there's a lot of reasons, um,
[01:25:51.360 --> 01:25:53.520]  to continue this work, right?
[01:25:53.620 --> 01:26:14.000]  We, we want to broadcast, we want to talk about all of it and at least get people, uh, aware of the stuff and extend those, those, uh, those, uh, discussions and, and just make it, uh, that much more, um, uh, thriving kind of, uh, that much more, uh, add to the abundance that,
[01:26:14.100 --> 01:26:19.980]  that, that's already out there in, in, in the tech community and in, in the community of, um, of hackers at large.
[01:26:20.700 --> 01:26:27.300]  I'm told if we get five more calls that we will officially have been, uh, doing well tonight.
[01:26:27.360 --> 01:26:30.140]  So imagine the power that you have.
[01:26:30.340 --> 01:26:47.900]  You are a one of five people that can make the show successful tonight just by calling 212-209-2950, pledging $125 to get all the Hope X talks on a flash drive, uh, or $150 to get them all as DVDs or $75 to get the hacker calendar autographed by us.
[01:26:48.620 --> 01:26:56.940]  212-209-2950 takes, uh, five people calling at the $125 level to make the show officially successful tonight.
[01:26:57.060 --> 01:27:04.140]  So please, if you're on the fence about this, jump off the fence on, on, on the right side and, um, and, and help us out.
[01:27:04.240 --> 01:27:06.480]  212-209-2950.
[01:27:06.860 --> 01:27:13.120]  You will be getting an incredible, uh, premium as a result, but most importantly, you will be getting the radio station.
[01:27:13.360 --> 01:27:14.060]  You will be getting the show.
[01:27:14.200 --> 01:27:18.500]  You'll be getting our undying gratitude for supporting us.
[01:27:18.680 --> 01:27:21.760]  212-209-2950.
[01:27:22.060 --> 01:27:26.920]  Now, so some of our listeners who are super savvy at math can, can do five times 125.
[01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:28.140]  They can say 625.
[01:27:28.360 --> 01:27:38.720]  Surely you could, you know, get underwriting 625 in, in, you know, uh, a minute of phone calls to some, you know, giant corporation for whom that's no money at all.
[01:27:38.900 --> 01:27:49.400]  And, uh, we probably could if we were willing to, you know, lose our credibility, our independence that you, our listeners give us when you call 212-209-2950.
[01:27:49.580 --> 01:27:55.160]  We don't have to worry about offending a sponsor or an underwriter or an advertiser.
[01:27:55.380 --> 01:28:01.320]  And there's only, you know, a very few companies that, that do this sort of, um, sponsoring.
[01:28:01.320 --> 01:28:09.760]  If you listen to, um, uh, you know, podcasts or internet radio or whatever, you hear the same like three or four companies mentioned time and time again.
[01:28:10.220 --> 01:28:11.620]  And, uh, and you know, it's great.
[01:28:11.720 --> 01:28:16.520]  A lot of great stuff gets produced as a result of that, but you can't criticize those companies.
[01:28:17.060 --> 01:28:21.620]  Even if they're not your sponsor, you can't criticize them because they might be your sponsor one day.
[01:28:21.960 --> 01:28:24.400]  And, uh, we don't have that problem here at WBAI.
[01:28:24.400 --> 01:28:29.340]  We've been going for something like 40 years, uh, with, without that kind of problem.
[01:28:29.400 --> 01:28:31.000]  And we want to continue doing that.
[01:28:31.140 --> 01:28:35.240]  So 212-209-2950 is the number to call and we'll send you a thank you gift.
[01:28:35.280 --> 01:28:36.680]  Try 54 years, Mike.
[01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:37.520]  54 years?
[01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:39.480]  1960 is when this place started.
[01:28:39.840 --> 01:28:41.980]  And the station, the station itself was a donation.
[01:28:42.200 --> 01:28:46.340]  You know, someone donated a radio station to Pacifica in New York City.
[01:28:46.480 --> 01:28:49.240]  It took them a long time to be believed, but that's what they did.
[01:28:49.320 --> 01:28:50.900]  The ultimate act of generosity.
[01:28:51.400 --> 01:28:53.640]  And it's, the magic has continued ever since.
[01:28:54.080 --> 01:28:56.900]  We're the first radio station actually to ask for funds on the air.
[01:28:56.980 --> 01:28:57.660]  That is a fact.
[01:28:58.040 --> 01:29:03.820]  And, um, uh, it's, I don't know how proud we want to be for starting that because everybody's asking for money now.
[01:29:03.920 --> 01:29:12.240]  But, um, but I think we still provide the most variety and the most quality, uh, in, in, in all sorts of different, uh, different manners.
[01:29:12.500 --> 01:29:13.840]  Yeah, we, we do our best every week.
[01:29:13.940 --> 01:29:18.260]  We bring as much new and, uh, exciting stuff to you, uh, in the form of this show off the hook.
[01:29:18.540 --> 01:29:25.300]  And, uh, well, with these, this, uh, this conference is, uh, a way that we get, come together every other year.
[01:29:25.500 --> 01:29:35.120]  And, uh, we try to collate and get the best info, uh, from the experts themselves and, uh, put it together in a, in a really wonderful and exciting conference.
[01:29:35.520 --> 01:29:37.420]  Um, and this stuff's relevant.
[01:29:37.640 --> 01:29:39.760]  I mean, this is get it while it's fresh.
[01:29:39.760 --> 01:29:53.680]  This is stuff that, you know, people worked on in the last year or two, they were talking about, they're researching and, um, and through our event, they were able to, uh, put together really riveting, riveting talks, stuff that you just, you don't hear anywhere else.
[01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:55.000]  As Mike said, it's critical.
[01:29:55.440 --> 01:29:56.840]  It's, it's sometimes it's harsh.
[01:29:57.000 --> 01:30:01.360]  It's, it's, uh, it's not, uh, it's not beholden to anyone.
[01:30:01.460 --> 01:30:01.900]  Okay.
[01:30:02.060 --> 01:30:02.940]  Except the community.
[01:30:03.220 --> 01:30:04.760]  And, and that's you, that's me.
[01:30:05.100 --> 01:30:10.660]  Um, and we want to come together, uh, especially now for, for the station so we can continue here.
[01:30:10.760 --> 01:30:15.360]  So the station can continue and, um, and, uh, the dialogue itself.
[01:30:15.560 --> 01:30:33.520]  And just to put this in perspective, any one of these talks that we are, um, offering tonight, 100 or so talks, uh, could be offered as a premium in and of itself and offered pretty much for the same amount, uh, a public radio station or television station would offer this and say,
[01:30:33.660 --> 01:30:37.160]  yes, you'll get this talk if you, if you give a gift of this amount.
[01:30:37.460 --> 01:30:39.660]  Uh, but we want you to have it all.
[01:30:39.800 --> 01:30:44.680]  We want you to have every single talk because we know there's something in there that will appeal to you.
[01:30:45.100 --> 01:30:52.040]  And now with, with, uh, digital devices being so tiny and having so much capacity, we want to share it.
[01:30:52.120 --> 01:30:53.920]  We want it to, uh, to be spread everywhere.
[01:30:54.300 --> 01:30:54.920]  Think about this.
[01:30:55.060 --> 01:31:00.960]  If you get the 64 gigs of talks, you can make your own copy and then give that as a present.
[01:31:01.280 --> 01:31:08.160]  And then people will think, wow, this person is super generous because they gave me all these talks and you can do that infinitely because that's how it works.
[01:31:08.500 --> 01:31:11.180]  2 1 2 2 0 9 2 9 5 0.
[01:31:11.320 --> 01:31:12.140]  Bernie, did you have something?
[01:31:12.600 --> 01:31:23.960]  Uh, well, just to add on to what you just said, uh, I got a call just about three hours ago from a friend of mine in, uh, on the West coast who, uh, thanked me profusely for sending him a flash drive with just the audio of all the hope talks.
[01:31:24.240 --> 01:31:26.920]  He's driving around his car listening to his, this is the best thing ever.
[01:31:27.320 --> 01:31:29.860]  And, um, he's called in and pledged at WBA.
[01:31:29.860 --> 01:31:31.780]  I before, and by the way, WBA.
[01:31:31.780 --> 01:31:34.420]  I is a unique listener supported station.
[01:31:34.640 --> 01:31:38.620]  Um, these so-called public radio stations, uh, other networks like NPR.
[01:31:39.020 --> 01:31:42.300]  If you listen to those stations all day, you hear a lot of commercials.
[01:31:42.460 --> 01:31:43.380]  They don't call commercials.
[01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:51.820]  They're underwriting, uh, announcements, that kind of stuff, but you hear tons of promotional stuff, advertising some product or service.
[01:31:51.980 --> 01:31:55.220]  They don't call it advertising, but it for all intents and purposes it is.
[01:31:55.340 --> 01:31:56.940]  You don't hear that on WBAI.
[01:31:57.520 --> 01:32:01.820]  WBAI is all about the content and not watering it down.
[01:32:01.980 --> 01:32:18.400]  Or as Mike pointed out, um, uh, having to, uh, be afraid of, of offending a, uh, a commercial sponsor, um, or, or a potential future, uh, uh, corporate sponsor that would underwrite, uh, the radio station or TV station kind of thing.
[01:32:18.560 --> 01:32:20.460]  You know, uh, go ahead.
[01:32:20.640 --> 01:32:23.340]  Yeah, Bernie, I mean, I just to speak right to what you're saying.
[01:32:23.480 --> 01:32:27.600]  I mean, even, even the fund drives themselves are underwritten.
[01:32:27.740 --> 01:32:43.220]  They'll say like, you know, I, if I was an NPR affiliate right now, I'd be, I'd be acknowledging, I'd say, you know what, I would really, I'd like to thank, uh, our delightful sponsor, um, uh, who provided for craft services, who provided, uh, the wonderful buffet spread we have for all our volunteers.
[01:32:43.480 --> 01:32:43.960]  Get away from it.
[01:32:44.020 --> 01:32:44.500]  It's crazy.
[01:32:45.000 --> 01:32:46.040]  Even the fund drives?
[01:32:46.460 --> 01:32:46.820]  Yes.
[01:32:46.820 --> 01:32:52.660]  A lot of the, a lot of times they'll say, okay, uh, catering was brought to, uh, they'll, I'll have coffee and whoever.
[01:32:52.800 --> 01:32:53.860]  We don't have that here.
[01:32:53.980 --> 01:32:55.060]  Well, we used to have that.
[01:32:55.180 --> 01:32:58.720]  We used to have local restaurants, uh, helping us with things, but it's local.
[01:32:58.940 --> 01:32:59.260]  I don't think we announced it.
[01:32:59.300 --> 01:32:59.540]  It's local.
[01:32:59.680 --> 01:33:00.040]  Yeah, we did.
[01:33:00.140 --> 01:33:02.260]  We, we, but it's, I see what you're saying.
[01:33:02.280 --> 01:33:07.860]  It's more corporate as far as, uh, when, when, when these other professional stations do it.
[01:33:07.980 --> 01:33:12.600]  And we try and put all the professionalism into the programming and, you know, it doesn't always work.
[01:33:12.760 --> 01:33:19.780]  I know there's people out there standing up and shouting at the radio saying, you know, they heard this, this horrible program that they hated more than anything in the world.
[01:33:19.900 --> 01:33:26.420]  And yeah, you know, sometimes that'll happen too, but, um, you're listening now and presumably you want this program to continue.
[01:33:26.520 --> 01:33:33.960]  And as long as this program can, uh, can succeed, others can as well, especially if you open the door and support the radio station.
[01:33:34.080 --> 01:33:38.220]  I'm told we only need four more calls, 212-209-2950.
[01:33:38.740 --> 01:33:41.080]  Pledge your support to this radio station.
[01:33:41.260 --> 01:33:46.100]  $125 gets you all of the Hope X talks from July on a flash drive.
[01:33:46.560 --> 01:33:50.860]  And, um, there are a number of other levels that you can pledge at as well.
[01:33:50.940 --> 01:33:52.380]  You can become a BAI buddy.
[01:33:52.560 --> 01:33:54.680]  You can pay a certain amount each month.
[01:33:54.840 --> 01:33:58.000]  The important thing is that you call now 212-209-2950.
[01:33:58.000 --> 01:33:59.520]  We're on for two hours tonight.
[01:33:59.520 --> 01:34:04.700]  We only have about another 25 minutes to go and, uh, we need to meet that goal.
[01:34:04.860 --> 01:34:07.820]  212-209-2950.
[01:34:07.820 --> 01:34:19.180]  I do want to get into the next, uh, we had other, other excerpts we wanted to play and we have to skip some of them because we're spending too much time asking for, for phone calls because we're not getting as many as we need.
[01:34:19.760 --> 01:34:21.100]  Um, yeah, it's unfortunate.
[01:34:21.320 --> 01:34:25.800]  Now you can get everything simply by calling and then you won't have to worry about what you've might've missed.
[01:34:26.200 --> 01:34:28.300]  Um, but 212-209-2950.
[01:34:28.300 --> 01:34:29.440]  That is the phone number.
[01:34:29.620 --> 01:34:34.120]  I do want to go back to, um, to more clips, but let's get one more phone call to come in.
[01:34:34.580 --> 01:34:37.380]  212-209-2950.
[01:34:37.960 --> 01:34:41.020]  Bernie, I know you have a gift of getting people to call in.
[01:34:41.700 --> 01:34:46.260]  Uh, gift of gab maybe, but, um, uh, this is an incredible value.
[01:34:46.420 --> 01:35:06.200]  This radio station I'm talking about, WBAI, where you just nonstop, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, on-stop, interesting content, whether it's musical content, news, um, or just discussions about obscure topics that really fascinate a surprising number of people like this show.
[01:35:06.780 --> 01:35:10.740]  Um, it's worth supporting the station because if you don't, it's going to be gone.
[01:35:10.880 --> 01:35:11.900]  And I'm serious about that.
[01:35:11.980 --> 01:35:14.880]  This station is struggling to stay on the air.
[01:35:15.440 --> 01:35:18.200]  It costs a huge amount of money to keep this transmitter going.
[01:35:18.380 --> 01:35:19.540]  It is a work in progress.
[01:35:19.760 --> 01:35:19.980]  Definitely.
[01:35:20.360 --> 01:35:20.360]  Definitely.
[01:35:20.840 --> 01:35:22.120]  We're not getting, none of us are getting paid.
[01:35:22.220 --> 01:35:22.660]  We're volunteers.
[01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:24.520]  We just do this because we love it.
[01:35:24.720 --> 01:35:28.220]  We have a passion for getting information, important information out to people.
[01:35:28.600 --> 01:35:30.180]  And it's not just us who think it's important.
[01:35:30.280 --> 01:35:33.220]  Our listeners think it's important because they, they write to us every week.
[01:35:33.320 --> 01:35:37.520]  They call in, they support the station, like the people that call 212-209-2950.
[01:35:37.520 --> 01:35:40.560]  It's, it's important to support this station.
[01:35:40.700 --> 01:35:54.660]  And the gift we are giving, which we donated, we produced this content, and you, Emmanuel, with the 2600 donating the, the, the physical media that this content is being delivered to, to pledgers tonight, it's, it's, it's, it's an insanely, ridiculously good value.
[01:35:55.020 --> 01:35:58.680]  150, 100, 100 DVDs for 150 bucks.
[01:35:58.820 --> 01:36:04.500]  That's $1.50 for, for a video DVD of some really fascinating material.
[01:36:04.800 --> 01:36:06.240]  And times a hundred, it's crazy.
[01:36:06.420 --> 01:36:17.320]  And even less if it's on the, on the flash drive, $125, it's all that content, tens of gigabytes of, uh, really fascinating intellectual content on a USB flash drive.
[01:36:17.460 --> 01:36:19.260]  Call 212-209-2950.
[01:36:19.640 --> 01:36:24.180]  You will enrich yourself, um, by supporting WBAI.
[01:36:24.320 --> 01:36:29.920]  You will enrich your, your own mind and you will be the hit at parties knowing all this stuff.
[01:36:30.060 --> 01:36:32.540]  You're listening to these, to this content.
[01:36:32.700 --> 01:36:34.420]  212-209-2950.
[01:36:34.800 --> 01:36:35.880]  Uh, enrich yourself.
[01:36:36.100 --> 01:36:43.680]  And also think about how much, um, other people are annoyed that this information is out there, that this information is being discussed.
[01:36:43.880 --> 01:36:58.900]  You know, what, what Edward Snowden did alone, obviously, uh, has, has changed the world and has, uh, uh, been a real, um, symbolic act, an actual act, uh, in, in, uh, in support of freedom and support of the truth.
[01:36:59.360 --> 01:37:13.300]  And, uh, the fact that we are able to present this material, that we are able to have conferences and have radio shows and publish magazines and speak freely about these issues, that is changing the world for the future.
[01:37:13.580 --> 01:37:24.720]  It's basically having organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation out there, uh, to, um, uh, to fight for our rights, to make sure that bad legislation is not the norm, is not something that we accept.
[01:37:24.880 --> 01:37:29.600]  And EFF has given several talks, uh, that you will receive as part of this package.
[01:37:30.080 --> 01:37:34.820]  Uh, there are so many people out there fighting on the right side, and you can become one of them.
[01:37:34.940 --> 01:37:36.800]  This is your way of voting.
[01:37:37.320 --> 01:37:39.400]  212-209-2950.
[01:37:39.840 --> 01:37:41.790]  Uh, we have a couple of calls, which is great.
[01:37:41.970 --> 01:37:43.670]  Uh, I think we only need two more.
[01:37:44.250 --> 01:37:46.150]  212-209-2950.
[01:37:46.390 --> 01:37:47.510]  You can be one of those two.
[01:37:47.670 --> 01:37:48.510]  It's come down to that.
[01:37:48.930 --> 01:37:54.730]  Let's go into one of the, um, most popular parts of the conference.
[01:37:54.850 --> 01:37:58.790]  And of course is social engineering, play a little bit of this.
[01:37:58.850 --> 01:37:59.750]  I wish we could play the whole thing.
[01:37:59.830 --> 01:38:00.490]  It's so great.
[01:38:00.670 --> 01:38:05.090]  Uh, but this gives you an example of how we try to fight back.
[01:38:05.190 --> 01:38:05.450]  Oh yeah.
[01:38:05.590 --> 01:38:11.650]  You know, it might not be a significant battle, but it makes us feel so much better and you'll feel so much better too.
[01:38:11.810 --> 01:38:18.490]  If you just give a call to 212-209-2950 and support this kind of, uh, this kind of thinking.
[01:38:18.730 --> 01:38:20.110]  Hey, you can play my talk.
[01:38:20.490 --> 01:38:21.090]  Uh, yeah.
[01:38:21.230 --> 01:38:22.750]  In fact, uh, Louie is here.
[01:38:24.150 --> 01:38:25.830]  Well, you'll know what that means in a second.
[01:38:25.990 --> 01:38:27.750]  212-209-2950.
[01:38:29.430 --> 01:38:34.670]  Another person also defined it as method acting because you're really taking on a persona that isn't you.
[01:38:34.830 --> 01:38:41.690]  And if you don't live that to the fullest T, I mean, if you're not walking in with business cards with that fake name on it, then you are not that persona.
[01:38:41.950 --> 01:38:44.410]  So we really have to go just full into this.
[01:38:44.510 --> 01:38:53.510]  And when you do that, and you give yourself over to this other life, you really kind of have this second nature way of convincing people to do things they really, really shouldn't be doing.
[01:38:55.730 --> 01:39:15.290]  If we could just give a formal definition of social engineering, it's a confidence scheme perpetrated most commonly over telephone, although not necessarily, in order to gain the trust of the target and get them to divulge information of value without knowing that they've divulged it.
[01:39:15.950 --> 01:39:16.990]  It's pretty simple.
[01:39:17.230 --> 01:39:18.510]  That's way better than what I said.
[01:39:19.370 --> 01:39:20.430]  That's fantastic.
[01:39:20.710 --> 01:39:20.710]  Yeah.
[01:39:22.010 --> 01:39:22.310]  Okay.
[01:39:22.370 --> 01:39:23.190]  I got something here.
[01:39:23.430 --> 01:39:27.290]  Um, I, I wrote down information before, but I forgot to write down the phone number.
[01:39:27.830 --> 01:39:29.930]  Um, so I had to, I had to look that up.
[01:39:30.190 --> 01:39:30.410]  Yeah.
[01:39:30.910 --> 01:39:33.330]  Well, it's, you know, it's actually, it's, it's not that easy to get.
[01:39:33.570 --> 01:39:39.190]  Um, I figured maybe tonight we have sort of a, uh, a couple of themes, um, revenge being one of them.
[01:39:39.270 --> 01:39:39.850]  I like revenge.
[01:39:40.250 --> 01:39:40.570]  Um,
[01:39:43.750 --> 01:39:47.150]  and we found out over the past year or so how much we've been spied upon.
[01:39:47.410 --> 01:39:54.230]  I figured maybe it's time to turn the tables a little bit and try to find out some information about the people who are spying on us, which is, you know, it's not that easy, obviously.
[01:39:54.390 --> 01:39:58.970]  And we're going to have to take tiny steps, but maybe it'll be an inspiration for people to get more information.
[01:39:59.710 --> 01:40:03.670]  Um, finding out the phone number for the national security agency is no easy task.
[01:40:11.820 --> 01:40:13.700]  It's, yeah, they don't really want you to know.
[01:40:13.960 --> 01:40:18.860]  And, um, well, I'll show you what we, what we found, uh, just by, just by looking it up online.
[01:40:19.260 --> 01:40:20.600]  Uh, can we get a dial tone here?
[01:40:22.480 --> 01:40:23.280]  Is there a dial tone?
[01:40:24.520 --> 01:40:25.360]  I hear a dial tone.
[01:40:27.460 --> 01:40:28.340]  Okay, there it is, yeah.
[01:40:30.840 --> 01:40:31.660]  Sounds so good.
[01:40:32.120 --> 01:40:35.340]  I'm dialing the number, and please don't decode the number because it's a secret.
[01:40:38.570 --> 01:40:40.010]  It's NSA, for God's sake.
[01:40:40.090 --> 01:40:40.570]  Don't mess around.
[01:40:40.990 --> 01:40:42.310]  Okay, let's hear what they say.
[01:40:42.750 --> 01:40:44.150]  I don't think anyone's going to answer, but let's hear.
[01:40:57.620 --> 01:40:58.760]  Something will answer, don't worry.
[01:41:05.480 --> 01:41:05.840]  Transferred.
[01:41:07.340 --> 01:41:09.860]  There is no answer from the person you called.
[01:41:10.040 --> 01:41:13.580]  Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system.
[01:41:14.220 --> 01:41:16.960]  Thank you for calling the NSA Public Affairs Office.
[01:41:16.980 --> 01:41:20.440]  We're unable to take your call at this time, so please leave a message.
[01:41:20.760 --> 01:41:31.280]  If this is a media request, please call the Security Operations Center at 301-688-6911, and they will call Public Affairs Specialist.
[01:41:31.380 --> 01:41:31.900]  6911?
[01:41:31.920 --> 01:41:38.760]  Or you can send an email to NSA, P-A-O, as in Public Affairs Office, at NSA.gov.
[01:41:38.960 --> 01:41:39.460]  Thank you.
[01:41:40.180 --> 01:41:40.640]  All right.
[01:41:40.640 --> 01:41:42.720]  Please dial the number of the person you're calling.
[01:41:42.940 --> 01:41:45.780]  If you have a mailbox on this system, please press pound.
[01:41:46.240 --> 01:41:47.440]  Well, let's call a number.
[01:41:47.720 --> 01:41:49.760]  I mean, let's try zero.
[01:41:50.400 --> 01:41:51.560]  That's always a good number to try.
[01:41:51.880 --> 01:41:54.140]  Please dial the number of the person you're calling.
[01:41:54.320 --> 01:41:57.220]  If you have a mailbox on this system, please press pound.
[01:41:58.040 --> 01:41:58.960]  All right, I'll press pound.
[01:41:59.020 --> 01:41:59.740]  You want to hack the NSA?
[01:41:59.740 --> 01:42:00.280]  We'll do that.
[01:42:00.400 --> 01:42:00.520]  Sure.
[01:42:06.090 --> 01:42:07.110]  I'm going to hell anyway.
[01:42:07.170 --> 01:42:10.150]  Please enter the mailbox number specified by your system manager.
[01:42:10.910 --> 01:42:12.010]  What was that about a manager?
[01:42:12.150 --> 01:42:12.210]  What?
[01:42:15.350 --> 01:42:19.310]  Sorry, I... Two, three, it's not a recognized mailbox.
[01:42:19.730 --> 01:42:20.610]  Please try again.
[01:42:20.950 --> 01:42:22.790]  Please re-enter your mailbox number.
[01:42:22.810 --> 01:42:25.130]  So let's enter a seven-digit number, the number I just called.
[01:42:29.160 --> 01:42:34.040]  Eight, eight, six, five, two, four, it's not a recognized mailbox.
[01:42:34.500 --> 01:42:35.380]  Please try again.
[01:42:35.380 --> 01:42:36.800]  Please re-enter your mailbox number.
[01:42:36.800 --> 01:42:38.580]  She's asking... 6-9-1-1?
[01:42:38.600 --> 01:42:39.660]  6-5-1-1.
[01:42:39.820 --> 01:42:40.160]  6-5-1-1?
[01:42:40.680 --> 01:42:41.000]  6-5-1-1.
[01:42:41.000 --> 01:42:42.500]  6-5-1-1.
[01:42:44.180 --> 01:42:45.880]  Please try again later.
[01:42:46.260 --> 01:42:46.320]  Oh.
[01:42:46.480 --> 01:42:46.720]  Goodbye.
[01:42:47.180 --> 01:42:48.260]  Okay, you heard her.
[01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:49.600]  Try again later.
[01:42:53.860 --> 01:42:55.360]  That's... Okay, that's the number.
[01:42:55.520 --> 01:42:57.880]  If you... If you... I'm going to hang up now so there's no horrible noise.
[01:42:58.480 --> 01:42:58.640]  Good.
[01:42:59.360 --> 01:43:09.240]  If you look it up on the net, you'll get 3-0-1-6-8-8-6-5-2-4 as the number, but it's mostly a public relations type number.
[01:43:09.980 --> 01:43:10.780]  Corporate affairs.
[01:43:11.080 --> 01:43:12.820]  Yeah, corporate affairs like that.
[01:43:14.200 --> 01:43:17.640]  Gone are the days we just call and you get an operator, even at the NSA.
[01:43:17.960 --> 01:43:25.460]  So what we would like to do is get a phone number or a name of somebody over there that we might be able to call.
[01:43:25.540 --> 01:43:32.200]  We don't expect this really to work, but we figured maybe we can use a little bit of confusion to get some information.
[01:43:32.640 --> 01:43:35.140]  Now, NSA is in a place called Fort Meade, Maryland.
[01:43:35.900 --> 01:43:36.880]  Wonderful place.
[01:43:38.600 --> 01:43:43.020]  And right next door to the NSA is an army base.
[01:43:43.300 --> 01:43:46.220]  As if they don't have enough scary things, they have an army base right next door.
[01:43:47.180 --> 01:43:49.960]  And that's also known as Fort Meade.
[01:43:50.600 --> 01:43:54.000]  And I imagine people get mixed up sometimes.
[01:43:55.160 --> 01:43:59.300]  And when we went to the Bradley Manning trial, that was in Fort Meade.
[01:43:59.720 --> 01:44:00.300]  Wasn't it?
[01:44:01.060 --> 01:44:01.380]  Yes.
[01:44:01.560 --> 01:44:02.860]  Yeah, Fort Meade, the army base.
[01:44:03.640 --> 01:44:05.360]  I was kind of shell shocked.
[01:44:06.260 --> 01:44:20.680]  So what I figure is maybe somebody will pick up over there at the army base and then we can do something kind of confusing to make it seem like we're looking for the NSA without actually giving away the information that that's what we're looking for.
[01:44:20.840 --> 01:44:22.020]  Have them help us.
[01:44:22.780 --> 01:44:26.520]  And I think, Kyle, I think you're going to try some... we're going to try out some voices here.
[01:44:26.960 --> 01:44:31.400]  We have... how many of you have seen the 2600 waste management shirts?
[01:44:31.760 --> 01:44:32.760]  You know, the ones with the collars?
[01:44:33.360 --> 01:44:41.600]  Okay, well, we sort of came up with a whole division of 2600 with warehouse staff and some guy named, what, Louie?
[01:44:41.680 --> 01:44:42.200]  Is that his name?
[01:44:42.460 --> 01:44:42.820]  Louie?
[01:44:43.400 --> 01:44:44.160]  Yeah, Louie.
[01:44:45.600 --> 01:44:48.360]  Kyle does a pretty good impression of Louie, how he sounds.
[01:44:48.360 --> 01:44:55.080]  Well, I have to apologize to just anyone who's a native of the East Coast, uh, tri-state area and New York in general.
[01:44:55.220 --> 01:44:56.220]  Where this accent is from exactly.
[01:44:56.220 --> 01:44:57.220]  I don't know where this accent is from.
[01:44:57.340 --> 01:44:58.600]  I don't know what borough it would be.
[01:44:59.560 --> 01:45:03.960]  It's a little raspy, so this might be loud, but... Cover your ears.
[01:45:04.280 --> 01:45:05.120]  What do you want Louie to say?
[01:45:05.420 --> 01:45:07.840]  Um, say it's Louie at Waste Management.
[01:45:10.600 --> 01:45:12.500]  That is the name of a company, Waste Management.
[01:45:13.060 --> 01:45:14.000]  2600 Waste Management.
[01:45:14.000 --> 01:45:23.420]  Yeah, hello, this is Louie from, uh, uh, no, uh, 2600 Waste Management, uh, I'm down here in, uh, shipping, uh... That's good enough, I think.
[01:45:23.420 --> 01:45:23.980]  Something like that.
[01:45:27.580 --> 01:45:33.080]  Can we tone it down a little bit so that it's not quite as funny to the people that pick up?
[01:45:34.920 --> 01:45:37.280]  I'm just worried that they might be laughing a lot.
[01:45:37.420 --> 01:45:38.180]  Yes, Emmanuel.
[01:45:38.980 --> 01:45:40.900]  No, that's Herbert from Family Guy.
[01:45:42.600 --> 01:45:43.700]  No, it isn't.
[01:45:46.460 --> 01:45:48.160]  I just want to say hi to everybody.
[01:45:48.520 --> 01:45:48.980]  Hope it's...
[01:45:51.980 --> 01:45:53.980]  Trying to do a serious panel here.
[01:45:54.140 --> 01:45:54.340]  No, no, no.
[01:45:54.700 --> 01:46:00.280]  Um, yeah, we got to tone it down, because that's a little too funny, and it's like too much of a character, caricature.
[01:46:00.440 --> 01:46:01.760]  Yeah, we don't have, you don't want to overdo it.
[01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:06.320]  You don't want to be, uh, somebody who's so funny sounding that, uh, they know it's, uh, that, that you're up.
[01:46:06.320 --> 01:46:12.600]  You want to try and sound maybe different than how you sound if you can do voices, or maybe exactly how you sound if they don't know who you are.
[01:46:13.580 --> 01:46:17.200]  Yeah, hello, this is, uh, Louis from, uh, 2600 Waste Management.
[01:46:17.940 --> 01:46:19.120]  Don't say that to them.
[01:46:20.560 --> 01:46:20.960]  Oh.
[01:46:21.160 --> 01:46:21.700]  Yeah, no.
[01:46:22.100 --> 01:46:27.860]  You're gonna be, you're gonna be, you're gonna be somebody working at DHL, and here's, here's the premise of this particular ruse.
[01:46:28.100 --> 01:46:32.760]  Uh, we are calling, um, the army base, and hopefully reaching a person.
[01:46:33.320 --> 01:46:35.060]  Uh, we might have to hit some buttons to find a person.
[01:46:35.260 --> 01:46:40.800]  Uh, uh, and we have a delivery of, uh, 13 pallets of a German energy drink that's going to...
[01:46:41.740 --> 01:46:42.100]  What?
[01:46:42.640 --> 01:46:42.820]  What?
[01:46:44.740 --> 01:46:48.060]  It's going to this place called National Security Incorporated.
[01:46:48.220 --> 01:46:50.740]  Get the name wrong a little bit, because that makes it a little bit more believable.
[01:46:51.340 --> 01:47:00.220]  Uh, we have an address that's sort of right and sort of wrong, and that, that might encourage people to help you out a little bit and say, oh, you mean those guys over there, here's their phone number.
[01:47:00.580 --> 01:47:05.140]  Uh, and I guess what we're going to try and do is, uh, try and get a contact name, contact number.
[01:47:05.580 --> 01:47:09.180]  Um, otherwise it's got to go back to the port and be sent back overseas.
[01:47:09.440 --> 01:47:14.160]  You always put something kind of, um, negative in there to, uh, to make them want to help you.
[01:47:14.300 --> 01:47:21.300]  So let's prevent this bad thing from happening and help us out, and the NSA will be happy and hyped up on Club Monte.
[01:47:23.220 --> 01:47:28.820]  Well, uh, unfortunately, we don't have time to, um, uh, to show you how that all turned out.
[01:47:28.980 --> 01:47:39.320]  But I think it's representative of the spirit of hope, where we actually are reaching out to the NSA to, uh, figure out if we can social engineer them.
[01:47:39.760 --> 01:47:45.940]  Uh, this is one of a hundred talks that you will get for a pledge of either $125 or $150.
[01:47:46.260 --> 01:47:48.280]  If you want the flash drive, pledge $125.
[01:47:48.280 --> 01:47:53.900]  If you want the DVDs, $150, $212, $209, $2950.
[01:47:54.380 --> 01:47:59.060]  Guaranteed you will be riveted to whatever device you happen to be watching this on.
[01:47:59.700 --> 01:48:04.120]  Um, and yeah, you heard Louie here on WBAI.
[01:48:04.260 --> 01:48:07.220]  And you know, people still walk up to you, Kyle, and ask how Louie is.
[01:48:07.480 --> 01:48:08.720]  You know, that's so true.
[01:48:08.880 --> 01:48:11.320]  It's actually, I was really embarrassed.
[01:48:11.520 --> 01:48:24.160]  I'd never really done anything like voices in public and never done social engineering on the phone in public, but you offered and we kicked it around as an idea, but people really do like we were, uh, at, uh, I don't know what it was, my guess maker fair.
[01:48:24.300 --> 01:48:26.800]  People were coming up to us and definitely really liked that.
[01:48:26.880 --> 01:48:27.520]  Thought it was funny.
[01:48:28.180 --> 01:48:37.380]  I was really nervous at the time, but, um, it was a lot of fun and it, I think, um, well, gave social engineering a new twist.
[01:48:37.640 --> 01:48:37.800]  Certainly.
[01:48:38.080 --> 01:48:38.400]  Absolutely.
[01:48:38.700 --> 01:48:40.760]  And it's, it's true of everything we do.
[01:48:40.960 --> 01:48:45.540]  There's always something new to try and, um, we don't scare easily.
[01:48:45.540 --> 01:48:50.160]  So yeah, we dove right into the NSA and started hacking their, their voicemail box.
[01:48:50.340 --> 01:48:51.900]  Uh, we didn't get anywhere with that.
[01:48:52.180 --> 01:48:57.040]  Uh, no, no, but, uh, it just, uh, uh, it's part of the whole hacker culture.
[01:48:57.500 --> 01:49:03.340]  And, um, yeah, you know, we, we, we're not intimidated by, uh, power by oppression.
[01:49:03.360 --> 01:49:08.980]  We stand up to these things in one way or another, sometimes in silly ways, sometimes in very noble ways.
[01:49:08.980 --> 01:49:16.400]  And you will hear a lot of people who have stood up to this kind of thing in much more noble ways than we do here on this panel.
[01:49:16.520 --> 01:49:21.440]  This is just a bit of fun, a bit of, um, uh, just kind of getting it out of our system.
[01:49:21.440 --> 01:49:25.940]  But the point is it's instructive and these are very real techniques that a lot of people aren't aware of.
[01:49:26.060 --> 01:49:28.420]  They're not, they don't, uh, they don't think this way.
[01:49:28.560 --> 01:49:46.300]  And that's what it is, is approaching systems with, uh, a really, um, creative, clear, clear head and, um, and like a spirit of, of being a little different, looking at it a little differently and, um, and, and being in control, being empowered by that creativity and,
[01:49:46.400 --> 01:49:53.320]  uh, understanding of the tech to, to meet an end that, that, um, um, you achieve something and, and is, uh, beneficial.
[01:49:53.320 --> 01:49:58.440]  So it's, it's a fun thing to do and really, uh, is a very serious topic itself.
[01:49:58.600 --> 01:49:58.980]  It is.
[01:49:59.080 --> 01:50:10.780]  And if you are on the other side, if you believe in sides, uh, and you're trying to protect your business or your government or whatever you from people like us, you will learn how to do that.
[01:50:10.860 --> 01:50:15.840]  You will learn how we think and, and, uh, basic common sense things you can do.
[01:50:15.840 --> 01:50:16.280]  Absolutely.
[01:50:16.460 --> 01:50:19.400]  And you ask anybody in the industry, I mean, social engineering is number one thing.
[01:50:19.600 --> 01:50:21.960]  People want their employees to be, uh, sensitive to.
[01:50:22.200 --> 01:50:26.520]  And social engineering is something that we actually pioneered here in this country.
[01:50:26.680 --> 01:50:33.780]  I remember, uh, back, um, at, uh, Galactic Hacker Party in 89, seeing a social engineering panel that the Dutch were putting on.
[01:50:34.060 --> 01:50:39.700]  And then when we started Hope back in 1994, we did a panel very much like that.
[01:50:39.780 --> 01:50:42.160]  And it's been a tradition ever since at every single Hope conference.
[01:50:42.320 --> 01:50:44.340]  Now, of course, many conferences are doing it as well.
[01:50:44.520 --> 01:50:54.400]  So it's really, it's, it's, it's matured quite a bit, and it's grown quite a bit, uh, kind of like all of us, all of these events, all of these, um, uh, these things that we partake in.
[01:50:54.600 --> 01:50:57.240]  Uh, again, we are here in WBAI.
[01:50:57.480 --> 01:50:59.640]  This is part of our autumn fundraiser.
[01:50:59.860 --> 01:51:03.180]  This is almost the end of our special two hour program.
[01:51:03.840 --> 01:51:12.060]  And, uh, we need you to call in and support WBAI so that we can continue for however many more years that, uh, we're able to do this.
[01:51:12.060 --> 01:51:21.340]  And so that's so many other programs can continue as well here at 99.5 FM on top of the empire state building in New York city.
[01:51:21.460 --> 01:51:22.500]  It doesn't get any better than that.
[01:51:22.620 --> 01:51:24.700]  212-209-2950.
[01:51:24.700 --> 01:51:33.980]  Your pledge of $125 will net you a hundred talks in a high quality MP4s on a flash drive, 64 gigs.
[01:51:34.800 --> 01:51:36.820]  212-209-2950.
[01:51:36.820 --> 01:51:40.500]  We'll get you a hundred DVDs with those same talks.
[01:51:40.820 --> 01:51:45.640]  Uh, we have a $75 level of the hacker calendar autographed by all of us here at off the hook.
[01:51:46.060 --> 01:51:47.900]  212-209-2950.
[01:51:48.180 --> 01:51:50.540]  These are the final minutes of this program.
[01:51:50.540 --> 01:51:57.160]  We need a strong showing in order to continue doing this in, in, in years, months, decades ahead.
[01:51:57.380 --> 01:51:57.860]  Bernie.
[01:51:59.080 --> 01:52:03.760]  Uh, we've got just a minute or a couple minutes left, but, uh, this is a precious resource.
[01:52:03.920 --> 01:52:09.600]  I think everybody listening already values or they wouldn't be listening for two hours to us talk about this.
[01:52:10.240 --> 01:52:14.460]  Um, it's important, um, just to get serious that, that folks support WBAI.
[01:52:14.740 --> 01:52:19.540]  Um, and we support it by doing what we do and sharing this content on the air.
[01:52:19.540 --> 01:52:19.540]  Sure.
[01:52:19.860 --> 01:52:25.000]  And, uh, there's no place else you're going to get this kind of information on the radio or on, on the internet.
[01:52:25.320 --> 01:52:26.300]  And controversy too.
[01:52:26.700 --> 01:52:31.700]  There is, there's something for everybody here, but there is nothing that we won't touch.
[01:52:32.240 --> 01:52:39.460]  I, I'm speaking about the, I'm speaking about the hacker culture in general, but the radio show, the magazine, the conference, this is true of all of it.
[01:52:39.800 --> 01:52:40.920]  And we don't have time.
[01:52:40.980 --> 01:52:42.760]  We don't have time to play the whole thing.
[01:52:42.860 --> 01:52:48.800]  I just want to play a few seconds of, of, uh, one of my absolute, um, favorite speakers.
[01:52:49.240 --> 01:52:52.740]  And that of course is our friend Johannes from Austria.
[01:52:53.200 --> 01:52:57.520]  Uh, I mean, uh, you, how do you describe it?
[01:52:57.560 --> 01:52:57.700]  Yeah.
[01:52:57.780 --> 01:53:01.640]  This is, uh, let's just say a look inward at our own, uh, culture.
[01:53:01.780 --> 01:53:03.600]  It's, uh, an audience bashing.
[01:53:03.820 --> 01:53:11.140]  Let's, let's let it, we can't even say the title of the, of, of his talk because, uh, it has words we're not allowed to say, but, uh, let's listen to this for about a minute or so.
[01:53:11.260 --> 01:53:12.520]  212-209-2950.
[01:53:12.520 --> 01:53:12.560]  Sure.
[01:53:14.540 --> 01:53:18.520]  Dominated, um, not, let's not call it dominated, but obsessed.
[01:53:18.800 --> 01:53:21.680]  Obsessed with one thing and it's martyrdom.
[01:53:22.760 --> 01:53:29.500]  Martyrdom, martyrdom, martyrdom, uh, and martyrdom in a strange combination with stardom.
[01:53:29.840 --> 01:53:34.120]  There are people, I mean, you pretty much saw it yesterday with Snowden.
[01:53:34.280 --> 01:53:45.500]  Everyone was cramming their stupid bodies into this tiny little room over there to see a virtual presentation of a guy who said the same things that he says all the time.
[01:53:45.980 --> 01:53:47.720]  And, you know, yeah, but it's Snowden.
[01:53:47.820 --> 01:53:48.480]  It's Snowden.
[01:53:48.680 --> 01:53:49.740]  He's Snowden.
[01:53:51.840 --> 01:53:52.360]  Snowden.
[01:53:52.540 --> 01:53:53.380]  I love you.
[01:53:54.260 --> 01:53:55.680]  Make me a child.
[01:53:55.920 --> 01:53:56.060]  Really.
[01:53:56.460 --> 01:53:59.040]  It's really, that guy's nice.
[01:53:59.300 --> 01:54:05.140]  He did great things, but no one in the entire world deserves so much attention.
[01:54:05.460 --> 01:54:05.640]  Really.
[01:54:05.920 --> 01:54:06.780]  No one.
[01:54:06.940 --> 01:54:07.000]  Yeah.
[01:54:07.440 --> 01:54:11.540]  Uh, and I'm not saying that, uh, because I mean, I don't even know Snowden.
[01:54:11.540 --> 01:54:12.640]  I like what he did.
[01:54:12.860 --> 01:54:28.060]  The main problem with that kind of discourse, if you have really complex problems in our world, like the stuff with the NSA, like other stuff, uh, like other stuff, uh, we tend as human people to personify discourse.
[01:54:28.300 --> 01:54:32.940]  And that's what's most of the time not good for the discourse.
[01:54:33.140 --> 01:54:43.700]  It's not good for talking about things by talking about people who talk about things because you end up talking about the people and the people are unimportant.
[01:54:44.040 --> 01:54:44.160]  Really.
[01:54:44.380 --> 01:54:44.660]  They are.
[01:54:45.060 --> 01:54:46.480]  Snowden is not important.
[01:54:46.780 --> 01:54:50.700]  What Snowden did is important and what it cost.
[01:54:51.060 --> 01:54:56.100]  But Snowden is not Michael Jackson and no one should be Michael Jackson.
[01:54:56.300 --> 01:54:56.440]  Really.
[01:54:56.620 --> 01:54:57.060]  No one.
[01:54:58.640 --> 01:55:01.080]  Because you see what happened to Michael Jackson.
[01:55:01.300 --> 01:55:02.700]  He killed himself.
[01:55:02.920 --> 01:55:03.100]  Yes.
[01:55:03.780 --> 01:55:05.680]  Uh, the same is true for Assange.
[01:55:05.800 --> 01:55:08.080]  I think that Assange is one of the biggest assholes I know.
[01:55:09.320 --> 01:55:11.840]  He did some really great things.
[01:55:12.020 --> 01:55:12.760]  Yes, he did.
[01:55:12.960 --> 01:55:16.600]  But at one point that should have just like stepped off the stage.
[01:55:16.860 --> 01:55:26.600]  He should just have gone away and leave the project to itself and other people running it and just take his stupid face out of the equation.
[01:55:26.780 --> 01:55:26.880]  Yeah.
[01:55:27.060 --> 01:55:28.240]  He should have done that.
[01:55:28.380 --> 01:55:28.440]  Yeah.
[01:55:29.140 --> 01:55:32.540]  Uh, I have never met Assange.
[01:55:32.740 --> 01:55:38.580]  But I have a strange reaction to him appearing everywhere and everyone talking about him.
[01:55:38.900 --> 01:55:39.600]  The guy's a guy.
[01:55:39.800 --> 01:55:41.360]  It's like, I'm not hating him.
[01:55:41.480 --> 01:55:41.720]  Not really.
[01:55:42.220 --> 01:55:43.960]  He's a guy who did something.
[01:55:44.140 --> 01:55:44.400]  Okay.
[01:55:44.500 --> 01:55:46.000]  Well, that's, that's just a small taste.
[01:55:46.080 --> 01:55:52.660]  You know, I said a minute and I can't stop listening, but, uh, he that's, that's Johannes from Austria giving one of the talks at the help conference.
[01:55:52.900 --> 01:55:56.020]  He basically says the cult, the cult of personality killed WikiLeaks.
[01:55:56.180 --> 01:55:57.840]  And I think that's, uh, that's pretty true.
[01:55:58.040 --> 01:56:00.440]  And we can probably look at that in a lot of organizations.
[01:56:00.860 --> 01:56:04.280]  No matter where you stand on all that, it is fascinating to listen to.
[01:56:04.400 --> 01:56:07.360]  And it's a conversation that is, is, is definitely worth having.
[01:56:07.800 --> 01:56:19.420]  And, uh, you can have every single one of the talks that were, was presented at Hope X, uh, a couple of months ago in New York city by calling 212-209-2950 pledge $125.
[01:56:19.560 --> 01:56:27.160]  You'll get everything on 64 gigs of a flash drive, uh, pledge 150 and you'll receive a hundred DVDs in the mail.
[01:56:27.360 --> 01:56:27.800]  That's true.
[01:56:28.940 --> 01:56:30.820]  212-209-2950.
[01:56:31.180 --> 01:56:33.160]  But you have to call in the next couple of minutes.
[01:56:33.260 --> 01:56:38.120]  If you're listening to this later on on the internet, well, you can try going to give to WBAI.org.
[01:56:38.280 --> 01:56:41.020]  That's to the number two WBAI.org.
[01:56:41.240 --> 01:56:43.760]  And, uh, maybe you'll find the premiums there.
[01:56:44.040 --> 01:56:45.000]  Maybe you won't.
[01:56:45.120 --> 01:56:48.460]  It's, uh, uh, if you do find them, they won't be there for very long.
[01:56:48.560 --> 01:56:49.500]  I can tell you that right now.
[01:56:49.920 --> 01:56:51.540]  212-209-2950.
[01:56:51.760 --> 01:56:55.100]  Any, any final words, thoughts, maybe other talks that, uh, were highlights?
[01:56:55.480 --> 01:57:01.380]  Well, I just want to remind listeners we won't be on next week, uh, but we will be on the following week, uh, at least as of now.
[01:57:01.500 --> 01:57:06.520]  And I learned from the hacker calendar that that will be the fourth anniversary of the release of the Iraq war logs.
[01:57:06.860 --> 01:57:07.660]  How about that?
[01:57:07.760 --> 01:57:09.080]  So there's a thing you might not have known.
[01:57:09.160 --> 01:57:11.220]  We're not, we are not the personal computer show.
[01:57:11.340 --> 01:57:13.780]  If you haven't figured that out in the past, uh, what is it?
[01:57:13.860 --> 01:57:14.580]  55 minutes.
[01:57:14.760 --> 01:57:15.880]  Uh, this is off the hook.
[01:57:15.880 --> 01:57:19.400]  The personal computer show is on for two hours next week from seven to nine.
[01:57:19.500 --> 01:57:19.620]  Yeah.
[01:57:20.060 --> 01:57:22.540]  So you should turn, tune in early if you like them better than us.
[01:57:23.100 --> 01:57:25.880]  Uh, thanks everybody who did call and pledge their support tonight.
[01:57:26.160 --> 01:57:35.840]  Um, please support Pacifica support, uh, WBAI and, uh, and right here, um, uh, your friendly neighborhood hackers at off the hook.
[01:57:36.080 --> 01:57:38.720]  Where else could you hear a program like this?
[01:57:38.800 --> 01:57:39.820]  Could you hear this kind of material?
[01:57:39.860 --> 01:57:50.840]  If you can think of an answer, if you have another radio station in your neighborhood that you can tune to and hear the kinds of things that we broadcast over the last two hours, then don't call 212-209-2950.
[01:57:51.000 --> 01:57:52.780]  Don't pledge, don't support this place.
[01:57:52.980 --> 01:58:06.520]  But if you cannot answer that question with something solid, another place where this material can be heard by millions of people, then maybe, maybe it's worth supporting a place like this because I'll tell you, it goes away.
[01:58:06.760 --> 01:58:07.800]  It's not coming back.
[01:58:08.020 --> 01:58:10.900]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0.
[01:58:11.700 --> 01:58:13.440]  We hope to see you in two weeks.
[01:58:13.820 --> 01:58:16.980]  Please write to us, O-T-H at 2600.com.
[01:58:17.260 --> 01:58:23.000]  Wherever you happen to be, please remember to, uh, keep on thinking, keep on rebelling, keep on being creative and mischievous.
[01:58:23.240 --> 01:58:24.940]  That's what the hacker world is all about.
[01:58:25.760 --> 01:58:26.520]  Good night, everyone.
[01:58:26.740 --> 01:58:27.160]  Thanks a lot.
[01:58:27.460 --> 01:58:27.680]  Good night.
[01:58:27.920 --> 01:58:28.480]  Thanks everybody.
[01:58:28.740 --> 01:58:29.080]  Good night.
[01:58:30.160 --> 01:58:30.580]  Good night.
[02:01:12.930 --> 02:01:18.670]  We'll see you
[02:01:37.480 --> 02:01:38.660]  next time.