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[00:26.180 --> 00:27.400]  Off the Hook is on the air.
[01:23.910 --> 01:25.230]  And the very good evening to everybody.
[01:25.390 --> 01:26.050]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:26.110 --> 01:28.130]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[01:28.130 --> 01:29.670]  Joined tonight by Mike...
[01:29.670 --> 01:30.210]  Good evening.
[01:30.310 --> 01:30.610]  ...Rob T.
[01:31.110 --> 01:31.470]  Firefly...
[01:31.470 --> 01:31.770]  Good evening.
[01:31.870 --> 01:32.530]  ...and Bernie S.
[01:32.710 --> 01:33.690]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[01:33.850 --> 01:38.850]  We have a lot to get through in this hour because a lot has been happening and we haven't been on in two weeks.
[01:39.850 --> 02:01.250]  What I'd like to do tonight is, in addition to taking listener phone calls, which we have not had enough of on this station, I don't think, concerning what's been going on throughout the country in the last couple of days, I'd like to focus on some of the technical aspects and details involved in Ferguson and what has been going on over there.
[02:01.470 --> 02:12.470]  It has been obviously a very dramatic last few days, but there are all kinds of things, too, that I think we can benefit from technology-wise.
[02:12.470 --> 02:22.390]  For instance, I was able, through the internet, to be able to listen to the police scanners in Ferguson and hear them pretty much lose control of their city.
[02:22.390 --> 02:24.550]  It was really kind of crazy.
[02:24.710 --> 02:32.110]  I even heard their airways get taken over once by somebody playing a particularly apropos song.
[02:32.230 --> 02:34.410]  Either that or one of the cops has a weird sense of humor.
[02:35.710 --> 02:53.030]  As far as other ways of monitoring the situation, never before have I seen so many sources of media be available, if you knew where to look through Ustream, Livestream, and of course Twitter was able to be used as a rallying point.
[02:54.430 --> 02:55.970]  It's amazing to see.
[02:56.010 --> 03:02.150]  It's amazing to see the merging of hacktivism and actual activism in the streets.
[03:02.150 --> 03:08.170]  We've seen it before, but I think never as dramatically as we saw the last few days.
[03:08.390 --> 03:09.230]  Do you guys agree?
[03:09.470 --> 03:22.630]  Yeah, I think with every time this happens, and of course it's happened so many times now in this new generation of social media and things, that when something like this happens, when there are protests going on at this sort of level and everyone's looking at it,
[03:22.750 --> 03:24.190]  I think every time lessons are learned.
[03:24.190 --> 03:25.150]  It happened with Occupy.
[03:25.150 --> 03:25.910]  It happened with Egypt.
[03:25.930 --> 03:28.990]  It happened with everything else, and it happens again.
[03:28.990 --> 03:40.790]  It happened the last time this happened in Ferguson, and it's happening now, where every time this happens, the people who use it, the people who depend on it, get a bit better at it, and it's just a bit more mind-blowing the next time.
[03:41.930 --> 03:44.470]  I'm not sure if I agree or not.
[03:45.110 --> 03:56.950]  The counter... you know, I agree with much of what you said, but the counter-argument is that it just enables us to focus on, you know, tactics and technology and all this stuff instead of the actual issues at hand.
[03:57.750 --> 03:58.790]  I'm not sure I understand.
[03:59.570 --> 04:02.750]  Focusing on the technology instead of the issues?
[04:03.130 --> 04:03.410]  Yeah.
[04:04.150 --> 04:04.390]  Okay.
[04:04.930 --> 04:06.270]  Do you see examples of that?
[04:07.030 --> 04:07.930]  Yeah, just now.
[04:08.510 --> 04:09.430]  I'm not following.
[04:09.670 --> 04:13.750]  Because people are too focused on Twitter and not actually what they're saying on Twitter?
[04:13.910 --> 04:14.290]  Yeah.
[04:14.430 --> 04:16.490]  I think that's a very easy mistake to make.
[04:16.490 --> 04:22.490]  I'm not sure, you know, I'm not sure I'm entirely persuaded by my own argument, but I think it's complicated.
[04:23.030 --> 04:23.170]  Okay.
[04:23.390 --> 04:30.250]  Well, again, we'll open up phone calls if people have their opinions on this as well, so maybe we can go into that a little bit more.
[04:30.410 --> 04:30.990]  Bernie, how about you?
[04:31.570 --> 05:02.210]  Yeah, I tend to agree with Mike on one aspect of what he's trying to say, I think, is that if people look at media, homegrown media, whether it's Ustream or Twitter or photos taken on scene, that doesn't necessarily mean they're getting the whole story or what's going on that led to all of this.
[05:03.950 --> 05:12.750]  It's just sort of looking at the after effects of a situation that we really need to look at the causes of to begin with.
[05:13.530 --> 05:17.770]  Well, of course, but I don't think anyone's expecting to get the whole story from any one source.
[05:17.790 --> 05:21.710]  I think it's great to have alternatives and firsthand perspectives.
[05:21.890 --> 05:35.850]  I mean, to be able to watch someone like Tim Pool running through the streets of Ferguson and report live, what I'm also seeing in a totally different sanitized manner on CNN, I think that's very valuable to have that ability to do that.
[05:36.010 --> 05:39.090]  And I think the more of that we have, the stronger we become.
[05:39.210 --> 05:39.290]  Rob?
[05:39.510 --> 05:51.970]  Yeah, I'm not preaching how great the technology is at the expense of the message because any movement, any sort of social happening like this, it's as good as the people behind it and the message that they've got.
[05:51.970 --> 05:59.950]  And what the technology enables us to do is get the message out more directly, more widespread, in more ways than we've had in the past.
[06:00.670 --> 06:03.370]  You know, Emmanuel mentioned the regular news on this being sanitized.
[06:03.510 --> 06:17.130]  And one of the things that is mind-blowing as you watch this going on is looking at the mainstream reports of something alongside the tweets or the Ustreams or things like that happening in another window and how completely different they are.
[06:17.770 --> 06:25.990]  And just learning not only about the cause and the protest and what's going on, but also learning about what happens to that when it gets filtered through old media.
[06:26.110 --> 06:29.270]  It's also, you know, we tend to lump mass media together.
[06:29.390 --> 06:31.590]  And for the most part, I think we're justified in doing that.
[06:31.710 --> 06:35.550]  But there are worlds of differences between, say, CNN and Fox News.
[06:35.790 --> 06:40.370]  Because I was going back and forth, even on the way in here, listening to radio, because I get the satellite channels.
[06:40.530 --> 06:41.270]  I was listening.
[06:41.270 --> 06:43.470]  I almost drove off the road listening to Fox News.
[06:43.630 --> 06:47.710]  They're referring to the protesters as terrorists, thugs, all kinds of things.
[06:47.850 --> 06:52.510]  It just, you know, for the people that I was on Amsterdam Avenue, I wasn't yelling at you.
[06:52.590 --> 06:53.570]  I was yelling at my radio.
[06:53.810 --> 06:55.230]  It was just too much to bear.
[06:56.090 --> 07:06.210]  And I imagine there are a lot of impassioned conversations that will be going on over the next couple of days as various relatives meet for the first time in many months.
[07:07.250 --> 07:12.110]  What we have to understand with the technology aspect of this is that the technology is being used by everybody.
[07:12.110 --> 07:18.470]  If you look at hashtag Ferguson on Twitter, you will see some of the most racist diatribes that you would ever imagine.
[07:18.650 --> 07:22.910]  And of course, the same holds true for almost any website that is talking about this.
[07:23.010 --> 07:23.990]  It has a comment section.
[07:24.310 --> 07:28.650]  And I think that alone, that alone tells you, wow, we have such a long way to go.
[07:28.910 --> 07:30.770]  There is such problems in this country.
[07:30.770 --> 07:37.030]  And they're presenting those arguments better, I think, than anyone that actually realizes this.
[07:37.190 --> 07:44.230]  So I read in the paper that only 22% of white people in the United States think that...
[07:44.230 --> 07:50.850]  And I forget the exact question in the poll, but something along the lines of the police officer in question should be prosecuted.
[07:51.370 --> 07:53.370]  And I know a lot of white people.
[07:53.870 --> 08:00.610]  I'm sitting in a room with some right now, and I work with not exclusively white people, but quite a number, and, you know, all this stuff.
[08:01.070 --> 08:02.090]  You're friendly to white people.
[08:02.230 --> 08:02.770]  I've noticed that, yeah.
[08:04.970 --> 08:13.070]  The 78% of white people, and, you know, some of them are just vile racists, but I don't think it's all 78%.
[08:13.650 --> 08:14.370]  Like, who...
[08:14.370 --> 08:16.810]  What is the logical process here?
[08:16.830 --> 08:17.370]  I don't get it.
[08:17.490 --> 08:17.970]  Well, I mean...
[08:17.970 --> 08:18.690]  And who are they?
[08:18.770 --> 08:19.710]  Where do I find these people?
[08:19.850 --> 08:24.350]  It's easy to make the argument and get people to agree with you that, hey, the grand jury spoke.
[08:24.610 --> 08:26.490]  It's, you know, justice has been meted out.
[08:26.750 --> 08:28.550]  These people can't handle that.
[08:28.550 --> 08:29.550]  They're only hurting themselves.
[08:29.770 --> 08:39.230]  You know, the usual nonsense that we hear that doesn't go anywhere beyond the surface, the obvious things that are easy to say, easy to get people to agree with you.
[08:39.310 --> 08:45.510]  But if you look a little bit deeper, if you look at the actual testimony, if you look at how this whole thing played out, you see the corruption.
[08:45.510 --> 08:51.410]  You see how the system just is not fair and how so much was shut out.
[08:51.550 --> 09:06.010]  Simply the way that the Brown family was treated on Monday, not being told what was going on, having to learn from the media that there was even going to be a decision that day, that shows you that there are serious, serious problems, that they were not a part of this process,
[09:06.010 --> 09:12.830]  that it was extremely biased, and it always is extremely biased, towards people in law enforcement.
[09:12.850 --> 09:15.030]  And for God's sake, watch any cop show.
[09:15.110 --> 09:17.050]  The prosecutors and the cops are friends.
[09:17.130 --> 09:17.650]  They're always friends.
[09:17.710 --> 09:18.690]  They work in the same building.
[09:18.810 --> 09:19.790]  They see each other in court.
[09:19.790 --> 09:21.450]  They always are looking out for each other.
[09:22.750 --> 09:24.630]  I'm surprised that people are surprised.
[09:25.230 --> 09:26.810]  And I don't think very many people are.
[09:26.970 --> 09:28.690]  And that's what this use of the tech is about.
[09:28.830 --> 09:34.770]  It's about shining a light on stuff like this, on corruption in the media or corruption in how these things are handled, just how things are going.
[09:34.930 --> 09:41.150]  And if people in general think that that's okay, that things like this are happening, then fine.
[09:41.170 --> 09:42.990]  But at least they're coming by that opinion honestly.
[09:42.990 --> 09:44.810]  They know what's actually going on.
[09:44.830 --> 09:50.490]  It's not a case of just being told, oh, no, just take our word for it that everything's fair and everything's good and everything's fine and don't question it.
[09:50.770 --> 09:56.810]  It's a matter of actually getting the information out there on how these things are happening and letting people draw their own fair conclusions.
[09:57.310 --> 10:05.870]  I'm not really somebody who is into property damage, but I think there is a difference between property damage and violence.
[10:05.990 --> 10:06.690]  But apparently there isn't.
[10:06.910 --> 10:09.090]  Apparently they rewrote the dictionary because I went...
[10:09.090 --> 10:15.970]  I actually had a big argument planned out for this to prove that all these people saying violent demonstrations, no, you know, vandalism is not violence.
[10:15.970 --> 10:19.510]  If you go to Merriam-Webster and look up violence, now property damage is included.
[10:19.630 --> 10:20.510]  They rewrote the dictionary.
[10:20.830 --> 10:22.330]  I swear it wasn't like that.
[10:22.390 --> 10:26.650]  Can you go back and look at Merriam-Webster a few years ago and see what violence was defined as?
[10:26.770 --> 10:28.410]  I don't think it's the same thing.
[10:28.810 --> 10:41.490]  But, you know, I see all this outrage in the media about the property damage, and they seem so intent on fixing that, dealing with that issue, but not on the issues that lead to these repeated cases of injustice.
[10:41.490 --> 10:46.490]  And we have several this week alone, and we seem to always have no shortage of them.
[10:46.630 --> 10:49.170]  So that's a failing of the mass media, I think.
[10:50.090 --> 11:05.070]  Oh, Emmanuel, I wanted to point out, too, that when the St. Louis County prosecutor, Robert McCulloch, released hundreds of documents, grand jury transcripts, photographs, charts and graphs, circles and arrows, and all that stuff.
[11:05.070 --> 11:07.150]  Yeah, transparency is what he's trying to call that.
[11:07.150 --> 11:15.590]  Just because they're dumping all hundreds of documents on the public doesn't mean the process is really that transparent.
[11:16.470 --> 11:19.330]  It doesn't mean that it's a fair...
[11:19.990 --> 11:21.830]  It was a fair process.
[11:22.170 --> 11:31.190]  Just, I think, people can get overwhelmed with the volume of this stuff, and the facts get lost in the minutia.
[11:31.410 --> 11:33.550]  And who's going to really wade through those?
[11:33.550 --> 11:37.930]  I started reading some of those transcripts, and I was really confused as to who...
[11:38.710 --> 11:39.790]  Who was the...
[11:40.390 --> 11:42.050]  Who was the defendant here?
[11:42.590 --> 11:44.010]  It was like...
[11:44.010 --> 11:45.590]  Or who was the prosecutor here?
[11:45.650 --> 11:46.610]  Because when he...
[11:46.610 --> 11:49.250]  At that bizarre press conference, he seemed like the defense attorney.
[11:49.470 --> 11:50.790]  Yeah, yeah, it was really bizarre.
[11:51.070 --> 11:55.170]  It was not like any grand jury testimony I've ever heard of before.
[11:55.230 --> 11:56.310]  No, I saw some numbers.
[11:56.310 --> 11:57.490]  It was something like...
[11:57.490 --> 12:03.870]  You know, I don't have them in front of me, but I think there were 11 cases in federal grand juries out of how many?
[12:04.210 --> 12:05.030]  Hundreds of thousands.
[12:05.350 --> 12:07.970]  That were not granted.
[12:08.470 --> 12:09.970]  And this wasn't even a federal grand jury.
[12:09.990 --> 12:10.450]  No, it wasn't.
[12:11.330 --> 12:12.470]  It was a state grand jury.
[12:12.570 --> 12:13.750]  But still, it was...
[12:13.750 --> 12:16.090]  It seemed like it was an upside-down proceeding.
[12:16.090 --> 12:16.950]  I would like to know.
[12:16.990 --> 12:27.030]  I would like to know when was the last grand jury in that particular court that basically refused to indict somebody based on the prosecutor's recommendations.
[12:27.210 --> 12:27.790]  I'd like to know when...
[12:27.790 --> 12:28.630]  Maybe it's never happened.
[12:28.670 --> 12:29.670]  Maybe this is the first time.
[12:30.190 --> 12:33.250]  But it was certainly something that was very, very unusual.
[12:33.250 --> 12:37.550]  And that's what people are focusing on is that this just isn't right.
[12:37.610 --> 12:38.910]  And this isn't even the trial.
[12:39.270 --> 12:43.010]  That's what really bothers me is that this is being played out as if it were a trial.
[12:43.470 --> 12:46.710]  Looking at witnesses that may or may not be credible.
[12:46.990 --> 12:51.310]  The important thing is was something done that deserves a trial?
[12:51.690 --> 12:58.510]  And it just is so hard to believe that somebody could not believe that this should not be pursued.
[12:59.750 --> 13:07.450]  Do we want to talk about some of the technologies that were involved in this particular case and how the results...
[13:07.450 --> 13:14.170]  how these technologies could lead to an accurate or misaccurate interpretation of what really happened?
[13:14.310 --> 13:15.150]  Well, let's start with that.
[13:15.150 --> 13:23.350]  Then I have some issues, some theoretical issues to bring up as well about how to prevent these kinds of things from happening so consistently in the future.
[13:23.430 --> 13:24.110]  What do you have, Bernie?
[13:24.110 --> 13:51.950]  Well, on one side, there was a technology we've discussed many times on this show, which is a closed-circuit TV surveillance and recording of a convenience store or some kind of a store that sold cigars where the boy who was shot was caught on video taking a box of cigars.
[13:51.950 --> 13:55.670]  And then we have another technology, police two-way radio.
[13:55.810 --> 14:00.570]  It's been around a long time, but it has really changed how police operate over the years.
[14:01.950 --> 14:08.430]  It's called the flash, which is an audio description of the suspect, was announced over the air.
[14:09.190 --> 14:24.770]  And the police officer, Darren Wilson, stated before the grand jury that he heard over the police radio the description or flash of the suspect and that cigars were stolen.
[14:25.030 --> 14:37.530]  Then he also testified that when he encountered an individual on the street, he said he saw this person with a handful of cigars, hand them off to a friend, and then that's when things clicked in his head.
[14:37.610 --> 14:41.990]  So there's two interesting technologies that were used to get to that point.
[14:43.650 --> 14:49.750]  Now, I don't think it's a matter of dispute what was caught in the video and what was announced over the police radio.
[14:49.930 --> 14:53.590]  Well, the release of the video was used as a way of manipulating public opinion.
[14:54.010 --> 14:54.330]  Absolutely.
[14:54.490 --> 14:57.250]  And it was completely irrelevant to what was actually happening.
[14:57.310 --> 15:01.790]  In fact, when he was stopped, he was not stopped because he was a suspect in a robbery.
[15:01.790 --> 15:05.210]  He was stopped because he was walking in the street and the cop wanted him to get on the sidewalk.
[15:05.210 --> 15:27.410]  But apparently when, and again, I'm guessing that no one of us were there, when he saw the suspect, when he saw the person in the street match the description on the radio and had cigars in his hand, allegedly, that, according to the police officer, led him to believe that he was then dealing with a suspect that needed to be questioned.
[15:27.670 --> 15:45.050]  And that might have led to, if that were the case, if the boy who was being encountered by the cop felt nervous, that might have changed how, that might have changed the interaction as opposed to just running into people in the street.
[15:45.570 --> 15:52.910]  Okay, so now the questions I have, the theoretical issues, is basically, it hinges on this one thing.
[15:53.010 --> 15:57.170]  What would have helped this situation to find out what actually happened?
[15:57.390 --> 16:02.650]  And I'm hearing a lot of people calling for police to have cameras on their person.
[16:02.930 --> 16:03.710]  Is that correct?
[16:04.330 --> 16:17.950]  I've heard a lot of that, but, you know, suppose, you know, I've seen these things before, I've tested some of these things, you wear them, they're sort of forward-facing body cameras, but the police officer in this case was sitting in his car, the cruiser,
[16:18.110 --> 16:27.490]  and that would not have, and the shooting allegedly took place from the side of the vehicle, from inside the vehicle, pointing out the driver's window.
[16:27.650 --> 16:28.930]  Well, it could have caught the sound, though.
[16:29.010 --> 16:31.570]  It could have caught the sound, it could have caught everything that was discussed,
[16:36.830 --> 16:40.630]  Okay, so this is the point that this brings me to.
[16:40.790 --> 16:49.090]  It seems that we spend a lot of time criticizing our surveillance state and how we are being watched all the time.
[16:49.270 --> 16:51.710]  The authorities, though, they want to watch us.
[16:51.810 --> 16:54.230]  They want to watch the citizens everywhere.
[16:54.490 --> 16:55.750]  Every country seems to want to do this.
[16:55.750 --> 17:00.830]  However, we, on the other hand, as civilians, want to monitor the authorities.
[17:01.030 --> 17:04.830]  We want the authorities to be surveyed and on camera.
[17:05.170 --> 17:13.450]  And it just seems that everybody wants the other side to be under the scrutiny of surveillance, but they don't want it themselves.
[17:13.450 --> 17:18.690]  The cops are against having cameras on their persons or in their cars or being recorded in any way.
[17:18.810 --> 17:25.930]  Many times videotapes from such setups mysteriously disappear because there's incriminating evidence there.
[17:26.470 --> 17:36.530]  So I'm just wondering, how much longer can we avoid basically everything being recorded because there's always somebody that thinks that society will be safer with recordings?
[17:36.630 --> 17:36.770]  Mike?
[17:36.770 --> 17:50.350]  I think it's a huge mistake to assume, you know, in the absence of more fundamental reforms that just adding this additional technology is going to result in a more just policing system.
[17:50.350 --> 17:59.470]  I'm sure they will find ways to manipulate this technology, to use it against the sorts of people who they use all their other tools against.
[18:01.030 --> 18:07.510]  And, you know, so I think it's sort of a side issue, whether they should have cameras or not.
[18:07.670 --> 18:13.810]  As you said, Emmanuel, the camera's footage will magically stop working and get lost in cases like this.
[18:14.270 --> 18:25.790]  In other cases, I'm sure they'll find a way to magically unlose the footage in ways that puts, you know, some people who are not police officers in jail.
[18:27.730 --> 18:37.390]  Will there be a net benefit to justice, you know, justice as we should define it, not as the criminal system defines it?
[18:37.430 --> 18:40.910]  I don't know, but it seems like an awfully unsafe bet.
[18:41.270 --> 18:50.290]  Well, OK, so this is basically the question that I'm asking us as hackers, hacktivists, people who follow issues of technology.
[18:50.810 --> 18:52.470]  Is this something that we want to see?
[18:52.570 --> 18:58.890]  Do we want to see law enforcement under surveillance more because we think that that will help?
[18:59.230 --> 19:03.690]  And obviously we are against more surveillance being aimed at us.
[19:03.810 --> 19:07.330]  But I'm just wondering, do we feel the same way in the other direction, Rob?
[19:07.550 --> 19:20.130]  Well, you know, I've I've worked in places where the establishment was under video surveillance, you know, shops and other places that that were that were open to the public, but that were ultimately sort of private organizations.
[19:20.630 --> 19:24.950]  And when I worked there, I was on their cameras because it was part of my job to be there.
[19:25.130 --> 19:29.230]  And the job wanted wanted to hold what went on in their establishment accountable.
[19:30.330 --> 19:36.850]  And in the in the case of the police and the public, ostensibly, theoretically, it's the police who are answerable to the public.
[19:36.850 --> 19:38.450]  It's the police who are working for the public.
[19:38.730 --> 19:53.110]  And we, the public, should have the same option as the bosses of some shop somewhere to say, OK, we want the people accountable to us to be able to prove that they're they're worthy of that of the job that we're we want them to do.
[19:53.450 --> 19:59.910]  So I think I think it's fully it's fully within our rights to to demand that the police be recorded.
[19:59.910 --> 20:10.110]  But I also don't know if, you know, because at the end of the day, the technology itself is just a tool and the tools are going to be used by humans and humans can be really crappy when they want to be.
[20:10.450 --> 20:14.010]  So I think I think it's it's not it's not a cure all.
[20:14.170 --> 20:16.630]  But I don't think it's an evil either in the situation.
[20:18.750 --> 20:20.190]  Do I mean, you don't know.
[20:20.290 --> 20:20.710]  No one knows.
[20:20.830 --> 20:37.150]  But do you think that if there had been video footage of the Ferguson incident or any of the many incidents that have happened that are in so many ways similar in the intervening months that it would have led to any different result?
[20:37.290 --> 20:38.150]  Well, I do know this.
[20:38.410 --> 20:41.170]  We would not have been talking about Rodney King or they're not a video.
[20:41.810 --> 20:45.130]  There are many instances where something is captured.
[20:45.990 --> 20:52.050]  And and that's what gets people motivated to do something about it, because they see the injustice that happened right in front of them.
[20:52.190 --> 20:53.510]  It doesn't happen every time.
[20:53.650 --> 20:55.730]  And yeah, of course, it can be it can be thwarted.
[20:56.230 --> 21:10.770]  But in this particular case, you know, with all those conflicting, quote unquote, witnesses, and I say I put that in quotes because there I heard that Darren Wilson's account was in agreement with the police account.
[21:11.370 --> 21:13.170]  And what does that even mean?
[21:13.170 --> 21:14.590]  He was the only one there.
[21:14.830 --> 21:18.230]  So the police are just going to echo whatever he said in the first place.
[21:18.370 --> 21:19.410]  So, of course, they're going to agree.
[21:19.410 --> 21:24.230]  And then somebody else called into CNN with her particular viewpoint.
[21:24.430 --> 21:27.050]  And she happened to be a friend of Darren Wilson.
[21:27.230 --> 21:35.130]  She wasn't there either, but her account was given equal, equal gravity to the people who were there, who did see it.
[21:35.550 --> 21:48.050]  So it's just incredible to me how all these, quote unquote, witnesses were laid out there to basically give conflicting evidence and make it seem like nobody really knew what what happened in that particular case.
[21:49.570 --> 21:56.450]  In Philadelphia, there were two fairly recent high profile cases where police were caught on video doing things.
[21:56.550 --> 22:06.750]  In one case, a male police officer punched a female in the street at a street party, punched her in the face, really seriously injured her.
[22:07.010 --> 22:09.830]  It was caught on video, blood and everything, horrible.
[22:10.830 --> 22:16.990]  And it was for the video, you can see that the woman did nothing to cause that to happen.
[22:16.990 --> 22:21.910]  He thought it was, he thought it was, he intended, he thought it was someone else that had thrown water on him from behind.
[22:22.710 --> 22:23.810]  The ultimate crime.
[22:24.110 --> 22:25.510]  That's worth punching somebody in the face about.
[22:25.650 --> 22:29.730]  Anyway, the video was there, yet he still got off.
[22:30.390 --> 22:32.750]  And there's also a big high profile case recently.
[22:32.910 --> 22:52.650]  It was decided in Philadelphia where a ring of, I guess it was Vice Squad, police officers in Philadelphia, were going around to bodegas and robbing them, filing false charges against them, stealing their money, their cigarettes, food, sometimes sexually assaulting the people who worked in these bodegas.
[22:52.850 --> 22:55.630]  Some of these bodegas had closed-circuit TV recorders.
[22:55.750 --> 23:03.250]  And in one case, it was, the cops would actually disable the cameras as soon as they go in, is the first thing.
[23:03.630 --> 23:12.410]  Well, one bodega owner had the foresight of having it linked to an off-site server, so the video was stored off-site.
[23:12.870 --> 23:15.770]  And that's what led to a big case against these cops.
[23:15.950 --> 23:16.850]  They still got off.
[23:17.010 --> 23:21.970]  They were caught red-handed on video, disconnecting the cameras and doing other things, punching people in the face.
[23:22.570 --> 23:24.290]  Yet, they still got off.
[23:24.290 --> 23:27.830]  Well, Bernie, what you're failing to realize here is that most...
[23:27.830 --> 23:29.450]  Go to a video story, if you can find one.
[23:29.810 --> 23:32.530]  Most things on video are fiction.
[23:33.110 --> 23:36.930]  So, if you have something on video, it does not necessarily mean that's what happened.
[23:37.810 --> 23:38.590]  I'm trying.
[23:38.590 --> 23:41.090]  I'm trying really hard here to get into the Fox News mode.
[23:41.550 --> 23:55.370]  But in answer to those crazy cases that you just brought up, which I really find hard to believe, it's almost like something out of a bad TV show, I understand that the police are very concerned about this.
[23:55.530 --> 24:08.250]  And in fact, in New Jersey, they are suggesting, the authorities are suggesting, a $100 fine be imposed on any owner of a private CCTV camera that doesn't register their cameras with the police.
[24:09.290 --> 24:17.650]  So, the particular case, which I assume this is what you're concerned about, is that the police did not know where the video cameras were that were recording them committing crimes.
[24:17.790 --> 24:24.190]  Well, in this particular case, they would know where they all are, or the store merchant would be in violation.
[24:24.750 --> 24:25.430]  That's right.
[24:25.610 --> 24:31.610]  Yeah, that bill has not passed the New Jersey legislature yet, or signed by Governor Christie.
[24:31.870 --> 24:46.330]  But I'm concerned, if this is not just business owners, this is private individuals that have a closed-circuit TV camera pointing out in their private backyard, or at the sidewalk, or the street, could have to pay a $100 fine for not registering their name,
[24:46.550 --> 24:50.110]  address, and the types of cameras, where they're directed.
[24:50.630 --> 24:52.330]  I mean, I think that's kind of crazy.
[24:52.370 --> 25:11.090]  Well, this brings back memories of when Kyle and I were in Stockholm shortly after some guy tried to blow up a pedestrian mall, and this guy who ran a jewelry shop had a camera that caught the guy walking by, and he wound up being fined by the police because he hadn't registered his camera.
[25:11.350 --> 25:13.750]  And that was really kind of weird logic.
[25:14.270 --> 25:15.850]  Isn't this, though, what we want?
[25:16.010 --> 25:18.810]  Like, stricter controls on closed-circuit television cameras?
[25:19.010 --> 25:19.650]  Well, I don't know.
[25:19.790 --> 25:21.090]  Recording public places all the time?
[25:21.250 --> 25:27.710]  But, you know, if it's somebody's property, we're talking about recording things on your own property, it seems kind of Orwellian.
[25:27.710 --> 25:28.030]  I don't have any property.
[25:28.250 --> 25:29.850]  Well, okay, you don't, but people do.
[25:30.030 --> 25:40.390]  And it's very Orwellian to me that the state has to have access or approval over anything that you record, when it involves agents of the state misbehaving.
[25:40.790 --> 25:43.090]  That's something that throws up a lot of red flags.
[25:43.370 --> 25:52.850]  First of all, any plan to register private cameras would be very interesting if it passed because we've all got the equivalent of a fully equipped camera and TV studio in our pockets.
[25:52.990 --> 25:54.810]  You know, you put your phone on a desk and press a button.
[25:54.930 --> 25:55.170]  Exactly.
[25:55.370 --> 25:57.930]  And there you have a closed-circuit TV camera.
[25:58.630 --> 26:00.070]  But also, I...
[26:01.910 --> 26:02.530]  I'm sorry.
[26:04.570 --> 26:05.510]  No, I had something.
[26:05.730 --> 26:07.010]  Okay, I'm sure you did.
[26:07.050 --> 26:08.310]  Well, I have something here.
[26:08.710 --> 26:12.430]  And this is relating to the whole hacktivism aspect of it all.
[26:13.370 --> 26:16.030]  I've been watching all kinds of different sources.
[26:16.070 --> 26:22.750]  And of course, people associated loosely with anonymous have been leaking all kinds of information.
[26:22.750 --> 26:28.210]  And it's incredible what you can do when you have enthusiasm, skill, and numbers.
[26:29.950 --> 26:34.210]  There was a story that came out much earlier this month.
[26:34.370 --> 26:38.570]  And, you know, it's something I guess we could have just written assuming this was going to happen.
[26:38.690 --> 26:43.610]  But it was remarkably true what was supposedly about to be revealed.
[26:44.270 --> 26:47.670]  This comes from a press release of theirs or the equivalent of a press release.
[26:48.370 --> 27:00.790]  Last night, we announced that we received over the past several days a series of leaks from two separate and unrelated sources regarding the long-awaited grand jury decision regarding the murder of Mike Brown by Ferguson Police Department Officer Darren Wilson.
[27:00.790 --> 27:06.070]  In our opinion, after careful analysis, the sources are reliable and the information we are about to reveal is true.
[27:06.530 --> 27:11.450]  Both sources are government employees with access to both internal government as well as confidential police communications.
[27:11.770 --> 27:16.650]  For reasons of safety, we will not be revealing anything further on either our sources or the material leaked to us.
[27:17.050 --> 27:19.250]  The following is a synopsis of the leaked information.
[27:19.430 --> 27:23.410]  On or about November 10th, the grand jury decision will be announced.
[27:23.670 --> 27:24.610]  Obviously, that didn't happen.
[27:25.250 --> 27:29.090]  Darren Wilson will not be indicted on any charges related to the murder of Mike Brown.
[27:29.230 --> 27:30.210]  Obviously, that did happen.
[27:30.790 --> 27:35.650]  All local police chiefs and jail commanders have been notified to begin preparing for major civil unrest.
[27:36.270 --> 27:46.110]  Governor Nixon has been notified of the impending announcement and has ordered the Missouri National Guard to begin preparations for a possible reinstatement of the martial law that was declared at the beginning of the Ferguson protest.
[27:46.270 --> 27:49.530]  Well, it's incredible to me how dead on that was.
[27:49.650 --> 27:53.650]  And like I said, you know, a bunch of us could have predicted that's probably what was going to happen.
[27:53.770 --> 28:12.090]  But I just wonder, does this, assuming this is a legitimate leak, does this indicate that the authorities knew about this much longer than we thought they did and in their bizarre way of announcing it at the worst possible time to ensure that people would be as riled up and angry as you could imagine,
[28:12.770 --> 28:17.670]  is that something that we think could have actually happened?
[28:17.670 --> 28:21.170]  It's just, it bears examination, I think.
[28:21.950 --> 28:36.590]  I think the St. Louis County prosecutor was well aware that the officer, Darren Wilson, was not going to be indicted.
[28:36.890 --> 28:47.230]  That was clearly the intent of that prosecutor who works with cops all the time and needs cops to get convictions that make him look good as a prosecutor to boost his career.
[28:47.590 --> 28:51.450]  I mean, that's how the symbiotic relationship works between prosecutors and police.
[28:51.630 --> 28:54.810]  So I think it was a foregone conclusion there was not going to be an indictment.
[28:54.970 --> 28:59.490]  So I don't think it even required a leak for anyone to know that was going to happen.
[29:00.070 --> 29:02.370]  Yeah, I mean, I agree with what you said, Bernie.
[29:03.370 --> 29:11.850]  The grand jury system, by the way, is totally corrupt, and we should work to dismantle it because it's insane, the amount of unfairness that goes on in there.
[29:12.610 --> 29:31.450]  But the prosecutor in this particular case, for reasons that, you know, I have a theory but will never know, decided to pretend to make the process more fair, which is, of course, a totally unfair thing to do if you only do it in this one special case.
[29:31.910 --> 29:40.970]  So, you know, of course, it's been fairly obvious to anyone who cared to guess for a long time that no indictment would be returned.
[29:42.990 --> 29:47.950]  You know, I held out a little hope that my prediction that no indictment would be returned was wrong.
[29:48.210 --> 29:58.910]  But, you know, if I was a little more into theatrics, I would have, you know, I could have written up a press release stating that I've been leaked information and had a very good chance of being right.
[29:59.070 --> 30:00.670]  I don't know in this particular case.
[30:00.770 --> 30:06.770]  You know, maybe there was something more than a, you know, a pretty good guess at something that wasn't very hard to guess at.
[30:06.770 --> 30:09.650]  But, you know, we'll see.
[30:09.790 --> 30:12.810]  Well, this is something, as we've mentioned, that's not isolated to Ferguson.
[30:12.810 --> 30:17.350]  It's something that's happened in many parts of the country in one form or another.
[30:17.810 --> 30:34.250]  And what we were mentioning before and what continues is the reaction of people on the net, people with some tech savvy and the ability to round up thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to take action.
[30:34.250 --> 30:51.170]  Well, the case in Cleveland that happened last week of a 12-year-old being killed by police because he had a toy gun, that resulted in a website being taken down by, allegedly by Anonymous.
[30:51.990 --> 30:54.810]  And now the FBI is investigating that.
[30:54.930 --> 31:03.870]  I'll bet there'll be more indictments that actually do get handed down because of this investigation as opposed to the initial one that we were talking about.
[31:03.950 --> 31:12.530]  The FBI has reportedly launched an investigation after a hacking group claimed responsibility for shutting down the city of Cleveland's website on Monday.
[31:13.010 --> 31:14.170]  You've probably heard of...
[31:14.170 --> 31:16.390]  I'm reading from a mass media thing.
[31:16.430 --> 31:21.510]  That's why it's being called a group and implications of a tight organization and membership and things like that.
[31:21.730 --> 31:23.950]  You've probably heard of the group Anonymous before.
[31:24.370 --> 31:33.990]  The hackers say they attacked the city's website in response to the death of the 12-year-old kid who was shot and killed by police while we had what turned out to be a BB gun.
[31:34.630 --> 31:43.370]  In a YouTube video, the group berated how police handled the incident saying cops should have used a laser, et cetera, et cetera, and various other things.
[31:43.630 --> 31:54.010]  Police of the United States, you will learn in due time once Anonymous has shut down your sites that we will not stand for your ignorant, untrained, rookie cops.
[31:55.110 --> 31:59.150]  Cleveland.com, that was their website, Cleveland.com reports...
[31:59.150 --> 32:00.710]  or is that the media?
[32:00.850 --> 32:01.090]  I'm not sure.
[32:01.270 --> 32:10.690]  Cleveland.com reports local officials say the website went down early Monday morning and will remain that way until the FBI completes an assessment.
[32:10.970 --> 32:15.330]  Well, now the FBI is involved in finding out who hacked the website or who brought down the website.
[32:15.530 --> 32:19.790]  You know, I'm all for hacking a website and putting a message up there.
[32:19.890 --> 32:28.830]  I'm not so much for just taking it down and making it inaccessible because, well, then you don't even get to see the nonsense that they are spewing in defense of their position.
[32:28.950 --> 32:40.950]  But I think it's something that is a legitimate form of protest if you're able to actually access something and put up a message, graffiti, if you will, that reaches out to lots and lots of people using their servers.
[32:41.230 --> 32:44.170]  It's something that we've talked about since the 90s.
[32:44.430 --> 32:48.430]  And I think it remains a legitimate way of expressing yourself.
[32:49.410 --> 32:49.770]  Yeah.
[32:49.770 --> 33:00.030]  than protesters getting to the roof of a building and hanging a banner on a, say, government building making a point.
[33:00.190 --> 33:01.930]  I mean, it's basically the same kind of thing.
[33:02.010 --> 33:04.190]  There's no destruction of property in either case.
[33:05.330 --> 33:06.130]  Just embarrassment.
[33:06.370 --> 33:08.650]  But it seems that the government really hates it.
[33:08.810 --> 33:10.290]  Well, yeah, they hate embarrassment.
[33:10.290 --> 33:12.110]  That's for sure.
[33:12.210 --> 33:12.310]  Rob?
[33:12.390 --> 33:13.150]  Yeah, I'm inclined to agree.
[33:13.310 --> 33:21.070]  I mean, we've got our pals at the Graffiti Research Lab who have come up with all sorts of really interesting ways to put subversive messages out there and things like that.
[33:21.530 --> 33:30.330]  I am not a fan of just taking a website down and making it accessible because that's just, you know, it's censorship in either direction even if the good guys quote unquote are doing it.
[33:30.490 --> 33:32.870]  And they use the same tactics in reverse.
[33:33.470 --> 33:36.310]  You know, they take down your website and you have no voice.
[33:36.730 --> 33:41.770]  I think, you know, people you're arguing with, you want to give them a voice because you're right and they're wrong and they have to prove it.
[33:41.890 --> 33:42.250]  Absolutely.
[33:42.250 --> 33:48.990]  I would love for the websites for, you know, hate groups and people that I think are ridiculous to stay up because I want the world to see how full of crap they are.
[33:49.110 --> 34:03.590]  Although, although, and this is kind of interesting too, there was this battle, I don't know if you saw this online, between Anonymous and the KKK who were basically threatening the lives of demonstrators in Ferguson and they were just completely owned by Anonymous.
[34:03.850 --> 34:06.450]  They took over their Twitter accounts, they took down their website.
[34:06.590 --> 34:17.390]  It was funny to watch but, you know, especially when the main account of the Klan is now tweeting anti-Klan messages in their name.
[34:17.930 --> 34:21.830]  You know, that to me, that's another legitimate form of expression if you can pull that off.
[34:21.930 --> 34:27.230]  Yeah, I mean, the best antidote to bad speech is never censorship, it's just better speech.
[34:27.570 --> 34:32.790]  And I think there are ways of defacing a website or doing other things that get better speech across.
[34:34.490 --> 34:34.970]  Go ahead.
[34:35.070 --> 34:36.950]  I kind of want to stop talking and hear from our listeners.
[34:37.510 --> 34:39.070]  Yes, I was about to give about the phone number.
[34:39.870 --> 34:42.710]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[34:43.290 --> 34:46.310]  And we would like to hear from our listeners on this topic.
[34:46.470 --> 34:49.850]  Again, let's not have long speeches and diatribes and things like that.
[34:49.950 --> 34:52.310]  Let's give some opinions, ask some questions, things like that.
[34:52.310 --> 34:53.650]  You can be calling from anywhere.
[34:54.690 --> 34:56.890]  We'd like to hear what you have to say about this.
[34:57.250 --> 35:06.350]  I know there were demonstrations here in New York the last couple of nights and they were quite spirited and I think very constructive.
[35:06.730 --> 35:07.370]  Philadelphia, too.
[35:07.490 --> 35:08.130]  Philadelphia, everywhere.
[35:08.330 --> 35:09.710]  Something like 200 cities.
[35:10.390 --> 35:17.190]  There were hundreds of cops in the street for apparently not quite as many protesters marching several blocks.
[35:17.830 --> 35:24.010]  Well, you know, what I liked hearing in the mass media was how nice the cops were and how they were allowing these demonstrations to take place.
[35:24.190 --> 35:26.450]  And, you know, I've got to give a reality check here.
[35:26.610 --> 35:29.150]  The cops don't let you have demonstrations.
[35:29.250 --> 35:30.530]  You have that right.
[35:30.530 --> 35:39.430]  And they just need to get out of the way when thousands and thousands of people are going down Sixth Avenue or something and they cannot be stopped.
[35:39.630 --> 35:40.610]  It's reality.
[35:41.130 --> 35:47.710]  You don't need permits for that kind of thing when you're outraged and you demand to have your voice be heard.
[35:47.850 --> 35:51.750]  And I think, you know, to their credit they realized that and they didn't try to stop it.
[35:51.830 --> 35:53.670]  But that should be the default in society.
[35:53.790 --> 35:53.990]  Mike?
[35:54.350 --> 35:54.750]  Yeah.
[35:54.890 --> 36:04.570]  I mean, one of these marches happened to pass right by my window so I saw a little bit of it and, you know, it was under-policed by New York standards.
[36:04.870 --> 36:12.490]  You know, the New York Police Department, anyone who's ever been to a demonstration of any sort knows that the police really like to show themselves.
[36:13.610 --> 36:17.950]  And I was surprised that to the limited degree to which they were doing so.
[36:18.090 --> 36:22.130]  But, you know, if they had just, like, all stayed home it would have been just as well.
[36:22.130 --> 36:22.990]  Probably so.
[36:23.130 --> 36:23.470]  Probably so.
[36:23.510 --> 36:25.210]  In fact, I, you know, I was asking...
[36:25.210 --> 36:26.310]  To be clear, they is the police.
[36:26.430 --> 36:27.790]  I'm glad the demonstrators were out.
[36:27.890 --> 36:35.350]  I was asking as an experiment a couple of weeks ago when the demonstrations in Ferguson were still going on, let's have a night where there are no cops and see what happens.
[36:35.430 --> 36:40.850]  You know, and I think back then it would have proceeded pretty much peacefully without destruction.
[36:40.850 --> 36:44.990]  Obviously, when a crowd is outraged other things are going to happen.
[36:45.510 --> 36:50.490]  And while you may not condone it, it's really difficult not to understand it.
[36:50.690 --> 36:53.210]  You know, not to understand what could cause such a thing.
[36:53.850 --> 36:55.830]  Okay, 212-209-2900.
[36:55.850 --> 37:00.590]  We had a full switchboard just a second ago and they all transferred away to Neverland.
[37:00.750 --> 37:01.550]  I'm sorry about that.
[37:02.130 --> 37:03.570]  That's the phone network here.
[37:03.770 --> 37:06.390]  You get something like five rings and then it goes somewhere.
[37:06.670 --> 37:08.970]  If you're still ringing, we don't know where you are.
[37:09.110 --> 37:09.890]  So please call back.
[37:10.010 --> 37:10.830]  212-212-209-2900.
[37:12.070 --> 37:16.750]  Remember when the phone used to be able to ring like a hundred times and people were always there?
[37:17.970 --> 37:19.270]  Those were the good old days.
[37:19.430 --> 37:23.170]  I don't want to launch into another long conversation because we'll miss more calls then.
[37:23.490 --> 37:23.850]  There's one.
[37:24.010 --> 37:24.730]  All right, there's one.
[37:25.110 --> 37:27.610]  But all right, there's room for 20 here.
[37:27.790 --> 37:29.550]  So 212-209-2900.
[37:29.910 --> 37:30.630]  And good evening.
[37:30.790 --> 37:31.590]  You're on Off the Hook.
[37:32.410 --> 37:33.330]  Hi, good evening.
[37:33.530 --> 37:40.490]  I just wanted to, I don't have to be on the air, but just to ask the gentleman when he referred to Mike Brown, he's not the boy.
[37:41.490 --> 37:43.110]  His name is Michael Brown.
[37:43.290 --> 37:45.210]  Well, I think the point was he's 18.
[37:45.370 --> 37:46.290]  He's a kid.
[37:48.350 --> 37:50.070]  I think that was the point Bernie was making.
[37:50.850 --> 38:00.830]  I know, but I'm a mom of a six-year-old and I don't care if he's 18 or five years old to refer to him as the boy.
[38:01.030 --> 38:09.170]  I mean, we all know this case was very, very much so a major case right now in the media and then what's going on in this country.
[38:09.430 --> 38:13.310]  So, I think, for me personally, that's just my opinion.
[38:13.530 --> 38:13.750]  Okay.
[38:13.950 --> 38:14.730]  Anything else?
[38:16.430 --> 38:28.450]  I just wanted to know if you guys could discuss the whole issue of what parts of Ferguson were being protected by the police and the parts that were not being protected.
[38:28.450 --> 38:31.530]  The police department was being protected in Ferguson, I can tell you that.
[38:31.710 --> 38:38.890]  But nothing on West Florissant, which was the street where most of the fires and looting were taking place were being protected.
[38:39.010 --> 38:49.490]  In fact, I heard some stories about how shopkeepers were assured that police would be there to protect them and that they didn't have to take any precautions and of course they really weren't there at all.
[38:50.290 --> 38:52.910]  So, that's another angle to this whole story, Rob.
[38:53.050 --> 39:05.750]  Yeah, and I did see one other photograph and this is anecdotal evidence but I did see a photograph that was going around Twitter of a shop being protected from potential looters by what appeared to be members of rival gangs of the Crips and the Bloods working together to protect the place.
[39:06.590 --> 39:07.810]  Wow, what place was that?
[39:08.050 --> 39:09.530]  It was some sort of shop.
[39:09.530 --> 39:12.470]  I don't remember what exactly it was but this picture was going around a lot.
[39:13.310 --> 39:14.150]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[39:14.230 --> 39:15.210]  Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[39:16.130 --> 39:17.410]  Hi, I'd like to say something.
[39:17.650 --> 39:18.430]  Go ahead, you're on the air.
[39:20.330 --> 39:21.210]  Hi, Off the Hook?
[39:21.430 --> 39:22.370]  Yes, you're on the air right now.
[39:22.470 --> 39:22.690]  Go ahead.
[39:26.550 --> 39:28.870]  The message is the message.
[39:29.640 --> 39:32.550]  Did Michael Brown have a gun?
[39:32.810 --> 39:33.530]  No.
[39:33.870 --> 39:35.970]  Ergo, he was murdered.
[39:36.470 --> 39:41.080]  The basis of capitalism is the ownership of private property.
[39:41.560 --> 39:45.420]  It must be protected at all costs.
[39:45.740 --> 39:46.140]  Thanks.
[39:46.380 --> 39:46.660]  Bye.
[39:47.360 --> 39:48.920]  All right, thanks for that statement.
[39:49.120 --> 39:50.040]  We'll let it stand on its own.
[39:50.680 --> 39:52.020]  Good evening, you're on Off the Hook.
[39:53.600 --> 39:54.180]  Go ahead.
[39:55.740 --> 39:56.520]  Please speak up.
[39:56.540 --> 39:57.680]  It's you, you're on the air.
[39:58.820 --> 39:59.160]  Hello?
[39:59.380 --> 39:59.860]  Yes, go ahead.
[40:00.840 --> 40:11.260]  I just wanted to say that I was curious, do we know what percentage of people voted in the last midterm election in Ferguson?
[40:11.600 --> 40:24.020]  Because it keeps happening time and time again, and you have minority communities where the people in government are not of the community, and people don't vote.
[40:24.780 --> 40:29.840]  I mean, we can protest as much as we want, but at the end of the day, the guy in office is still in office.
[40:30.160 --> 40:32.960]  You can cry to the cows come home, nothing's going to happen.
[40:33.440 --> 40:46.940]  So I'll just ask you, this past midterm election, knowing what has happened in Ferguson since August, how many people voted, what was the turnout in Ferguson, did they send a statement out that we are coming for your jobs?
[40:47.120 --> 40:48.980]  Because that's the only language the politicians understand.
[40:49.220 --> 40:52.180]  If he's going to lose a job, he will change something.
[40:52.360 --> 40:58.940]  I would, I mean, I don't know, but I would bet that turnout was fairly low because people there have lost faith in the system.
[40:59.040 --> 41:14.560]  Now, what can change that is a candidate that steps up, that's not afraid to confront the issues and be controversial, unlike the Democrats, and just basically stand up and say, this needs to be addressed and I'm the person to do it and mobilize a community and maybe you'll see change then.
[41:14.660 --> 41:14.800]  Mike?
[41:14.920 --> 41:29.140]  I mean, I don't pretend to know very much about local politics in Missouri, but I live in New York and I voted a couple years ago for the most progressive mayor of New York City in my lifetime and what he has done to rein in the police here is absolutely nothing.
[41:30.100 --> 41:41.680]  He's appointed the old commissioner from the old evil mayor and is continuing these like insane broken windows policies that do nothing to help anyone except...
[41:41.680 --> 41:44.560]  Mike, is he different than the previous mayor?
[41:44.700 --> 41:47.340]  Maybe a bit, but the only way that he's going...
[41:47.340 --> 41:48.960]  I was coming to the point.
[41:49.220 --> 41:57.220]  The only way that he's going to be persuaded to live up to his campaign promises is if people demand it outside of the election cycle as well.
[41:57.380 --> 41:59.820]  And then, you know, maybe he'll do something.
[41:59.820 --> 42:00.280]  We'll see.
[42:00.460 --> 42:03.800]  But I think voting is not at least the only answer.
[42:04.020 --> 42:10.720]  No, but I think it's a big part of it and I think if you don't vote, you're basically voting for the worst evil that winds up getting elected.
[42:11.220 --> 42:15.500]  That's why I blame the Democrats for the Republican influx because they basically gave it away.
[42:15.680 --> 42:16.080]  Rob?
[42:16.280 --> 42:24.940]  Yeah, I mean, speaking myself as somebody who voted here in Manhattan in the last midterm election, I went in there and I saw, you know, offices where people were running unopposed.
[42:25.060 --> 42:31.420]  I saw offices where people were, you know, opposing candidates were running that really weren't that different from one another.
[42:31.660 --> 42:38.040]  So, you know, I voted and I did that part of it but at the same time I feel like the deck was stacked against me before I went in there.
[42:38.620 --> 42:40.820]  All right, 212-209-2900.
[42:41.440 --> 42:42.720]  Good evening, you're on off the hook.
[42:45.160 --> 42:45.960]  Please speak up.
[42:47.520 --> 42:52.440]  See, there's these long, confused silences when people, I don't know if they forget why they called.
[42:52.700 --> 42:53.140]  Oh, you know what?
[42:53.180 --> 42:53.900]  Now it's the phone.
[42:53.960 --> 42:54.680]  The phone's acting up.
[42:54.740 --> 42:55.660]  It's turning green again.
[42:56.720 --> 42:58.560]  I'm told to jiggle it.
[42:58.940 --> 43:01.080]  Okay, well, I hung up on the person by jiggling it.
[43:01.120 --> 43:01.660]  How do you like that?
[43:01.940 --> 43:03.720]  I'm sorry for berating you, caller.
[43:04.000 --> 43:04.800]  Please call back.
[43:04.800 --> 43:06.960]  212-209-2900.
[43:08.700 --> 43:09.780]  That doesn't work.
[43:10.100 --> 43:10.780]  I'm jiggling.
[43:10.940 --> 43:11.620]  You saw me jiggle.
[43:12.800 --> 43:13.900]  212-209-2900.
[43:14.020 --> 43:19.120]  There's support during the recent fundraiser to allow us to build a new studio with upgraded equipment.
[43:20.300 --> 43:23.640]  Yeah, okay, you know, certain lines turn orange, certain lines turn green.
[43:23.800 --> 43:24.640]  I don't understand it.
[43:24.720 --> 43:25.760]  Good evening, you're on off the hook.
[43:26.280 --> 43:26.560]  Hello?
[43:26.760 --> 43:27.000]  Hi.
[43:27.680 --> 43:28.160]  Can you hear me?
[43:28.340 --> 43:29.160]  We hear you fine.
[43:29.180 --> 43:29.740]  Can you hear us?
[43:29.900 --> 43:30.760]  Yes, I can hear you.
[43:30.760 --> 43:31.720]  Okay, let's proceed.
[43:31.900 --> 43:35.360]  I would just like to say, I just tuned in, I don't know, you had someone talking about the private property.
[43:35.440 --> 43:51.000]  I don't know if he was conservative or a liberal, but I do know this, that private property has existed with man way before capitalism, and in these communist countries in the 20th century, they got rid of private property, and then after that, the person's freedoms and rights went,
[43:51.100 --> 43:52.520]  like freedom of speech, things like that.
[43:52.840 --> 43:56.900]  And then after that, they started slaughtering their own people, not to mention attacking people in the...
[43:56.900 --> 44:00.940]  Yeah, I think we might be veering a little bit off the highway here with all...
[44:00.940 --> 44:07.680]  I mean, you know, this is a great conversation, but I'd like to focus on Ferguson, technology involved in Ferguson, all that.
[44:08.340 --> 44:11.460]  I just have one other thing to say on that that's a little related to it.
[44:11.720 --> 44:27.720]  And in terms of the administrations, you've been getting on the Democrats, but the inner cities all over the country, and now our president and our president's cabinet, and in the Congress for the first two years of Obama's turn, both branches were Democrat,
[44:27.940 --> 44:32.780]  and for the rest of it, at least one branch was Democrat, and in the inner cities they're almost always run by Democrats.
[44:33.320 --> 44:41.840]  New York, we've had a little change with Giuliani and Bloomberg, but Democrats have been running everything around the country, and things have been going very sour.
[44:42.060 --> 44:47.500]  And I don't think it's because of the lack of liberalism, I think it's because it's been too liberal.
[44:47.720 --> 45:01.100]  Well, you know, to call the Democrats liberal I think is a stretch, but, you know, and also to say that they were controlling the Senate and the House in those first two years, they had the majority, but somehow they weren't controlling it.
[45:01.220 --> 45:02.940]  The Republicans still were controlling it then.
[45:03.080 --> 45:05.840]  I don't know how they did it, but they really did a good job of that.
[45:05.840 --> 45:07.200]  I think there's a...
[45:07.200 --> 45:07.920]  I agree with the color.
[45:08.100 --> 45:11.060]  There's a limit to the amount of excuses we should accept from the Democrats.
[45:11.360 --> 45:15.880]  And I think, look, there's ways to get people to change and it's demanding it.
[45:16.620 --> 45:17.320]  Well, yeah, yeah.
[45:17.480 --> 45:18.500]  And I think that's what we're seeing.
[45:19.200 --> 45:20.580]  212-209-2900.
[45:20.720 --> 45:21.000]  Good evening.
[45:21.120 --> 45:21.740]  You're on Off the Hook.
[45:22.040 --> 45:23.200]  Yeah, let me turn off the radio.
[45:23.420 --> 45:24.100]  How you doing?
[45:24.340 --> 45:24.620]  Okay.
[45:24.820 --> 45:25.380]  What's on your mind?
[45:26.600 --> 45:27.280]  I'm all right.
[45:27.280 --> 45:31.260]  I'm not surprised as far as the verdict is concerned because African...
[45:31.260 --> 45:41.940]  The problem really is, to be honest with you, honestly, I believe that African Americans will not get justice in this country because the system is not geared to give you justice.
[45:42.720 --> 45:43.720]  That's the bottom line.
[45:43.780 --> 45:45.680]  You could have all the surveillance equipment you want.
[45:45.840 --> 45:47.460]  I've watched cases.
[45:47.620 --> 45:51.220]  I've been involved in activism since the days of Eleanor Bumpers.
[45:51.520 --> 45:53.020]  And there have been videotapes.
[45:53.120 --> 45:54.360]  There have been audio recordings.
[45:54.540 --> 45:55.880]  There have been eyewitness testimony.
[45:56.700 --> 46:01.520]  And the failure to get a bill out of a grand jury is all has to do with the DA.
[46:01.800 --> 46:03.380]  The DA presents a narrative.
[46:03.780 --> 46:09.960]  A grand jury is only supposed to assess the preponderance of evidence that a crime could have possibly taken place.
[46:11.060 --> 46:13.800]  The DA creates a narrative in front of the grand jury.
[46:13.940 --> 46:15.940]  He controls it and he presents the story.
[46:16.640 --> 46:26.300]  And back in the days of Clifford Glover, William Cussell even said, you can indict a ham sandwich because the DA controls the grand jury.
[46:26.440 --> 46:28.680]  He or she presents the evidence.
[46:28.860 --> 46:30.460]  He or she lays out the narrative.
[46:30.460 --> 46:32.080]  And they come back with a bill.
[46:32.240 --> 46:34.500]  You got grand juries that are lasting over three months.
[46:34.860 --> 46:38.600]  A grand jury shouldn't last longer than three weeks because you're presenting evidence.
[46:39.100 --> 46:51.060]  And if a DA wants to get a bill, he rehearses his witnesses, he lays out his physical evidence, and presents evidence to the grand jury in preponderance of a trial.
[46:51.460 --> 46:58.700]  And obviously, these DAs are not going going to go against their paternal brothers, which are the police.
[46:58.840 --> 46:59.140]  Absolutely.
[46:59.580 --> 47:01.000]  So, I mean, you're never going to...
[47:01.000 --> 47:06.220]  As far as African-Americans are concerned, we're never going to get a real or a fair deal in this country.
[47:06.420 --> 47:14.400]  It might happen unusually here and there, but when it comes down to a young African-American or Latino and a cop, the cop's going to win.
[47:14.700 --> 47:15.440]  You understand what I'm saying?
[47:15.540 --> 47:15.980]  Absolutely.
[47:16.300 --> 47:22.640]  And there's only one solution, and I'm not a violent person, but I can see why people reacted that way.
[47:22.980 --> 47:29.740]  There have been situations where I've been involved in protests and I've reacted that way because you get frustrated and you get tired of being an endangered species.
[47:30.120 --> 47:35.400]  And nobody's making any idle threats or vassal statements, but something's going to give.
[47:35.740 --> 47:37.220]  In this country, one day, something's going to give.
[47:37.320 --> 47:42.140]  Let me just extend that a little bit and say that the reactions that we've seen, they're healthy.
[47:42.380 --> 47:48.220]  Those are healthy reactions, and I know that's going to rub people the wrong way because property is being destroyed, but you know what?
[47:48.280 --> 47:51.920]  When people get upset, they need to express that.
[47:52.080 --> 47:54.160]  They need to lash out at something.
[47:54.340 --> 47:55.920]  And it's not...
[47:55.920 --> 47:57.000]  What's ringing?
[47:57.140 --> 47:58.440]  There's a phone ringing here we don't even have?
[47:58.820 --> 47:59.260]  Yeah.
[48:00.540 --> 48:03.600]  Basically, this happens every place around the world.
[48:03.720 --> 48:05.600]  It has happened every place around the world.
[48:05.760 --> 48:12.060]  It's not something that only minorities in the United States that don't understand how good they've got it...
[48:12.060 --> 48:13.880]  No, it's not anything like that.
[48:14.020 --> 48:20.280]  It's basically people who feel injustice throughout the course of time and throughout the entire planet.
[48:20.700 --> 48:24.820]  Those are people that feel the need to express themselves in whatever way possible.
[48:25.020 --> 48:25.660]  It's frustration.
[48:26.000 --> 48:26.280]  It's nothing.
[48:26.360 --> 48:27.260]  It's injustice.
[48:27.500 --> 48:30.980]  Yeah, injustice is in the world because human beings are flawed creatures.
[48:31.140 --> 48:36.320]  But it's the frustration when you can't get any justice in a possibility of justice.
[48:36.640 --> 48:38.920]  That's the frustration that causes the explosion.
[48:39.140 --> 48:45.900]  The only thing that really pisses me off is that take the explosion out of your neighborhood and take it to the people that are bringing it to you.
[48:45.900 --> 48:50.860]  Yes, that does seem to be the step that's not taken is going to the...
[48:50.860 --> 48:53.020]  Of course, it could be a real bloodbath.
[48:53.160 --> 49:03.760]  I was looking at the Facebook page for Darren Wilson and people were basically lined up on their porch with shotguns ready if they saw a black face to open fire.
[49:04.000 --> 49:18.160]  All the people with blue lights on their porches and things like that and basically creating a situation where there was real hostility and a real sense of them being a potential victim and I'm happy it didn't go that way.
[49:18.560 --> 49:26.380]  Well, no one wants to see bloodshed but sometimes something has to be done when a situation is becoming quite as impossible as this one.
[49:26.480 --> 49:29.740]  I mean, we have an incident it seems like every other three or four weeks.
[49:29.840 --> 49:31.340]  Oh, every three or four days.
[49:31.980 --> 49:33.640]  The brother that got shot in the Bronx.
[49:33.780 --> 49:34.120]  Absolutely.
[49:35.020 --> 49:37.360]  And that's a whole another issue.
[49:37.620 --> 49:43.700]  So, I mean, all I can say is I don't wish for it but you can see it.
[49:43.700 --> 49:44.520]  Something's going to give.
[49:44.680 --> 49:46.320]  Something's going to give and it's not going to be pretty.
[49:46.560 --> 49:58.520]  Yeah, and if you look in Europe, look in Greece, look in Spain, look in every single country in Western Europe, you will see really, really passionate protests where the things that you saw in Ferguson pale by comparison.
[49:59.380 --> 50:01.100]  And I think that's healthy.
[50:01.240 --> 50:02.760]  I think that needs to happen every now and then.
[50:02.840 --> 50:03.920]  I think that is how you get changed.
[50:04.160 --> 50:05.060]  Thanks so much for that call.
[50:05.180 --> 50:07.200]  Let's try and move on to another call.
[50:07.780 --> 50:08.400]  And good evening.
[50:13.700 --> 50:14.160]  You're on the air.
[50:14.260 --> 50:15.020]  Please turn down your radio.
[50:16.040 --> 50:16.480]  Okay.
[50:17.020 --> 50:18.720]  I should turn my radio down.
[50:18.720 --> 50:18.980]  Yes.
[50:19.020 --> 50:20.700]  That would be advised.
[50:21.480 --> 50:21.920]  Okay.
[50:23.380 --> 50:25.020]  Yeah, because otherwise you'll hear me.
[50:25.800 --> 50:26.440]  Right, right, right.
[50:27.140 --> 50:27.820]  Okay, it's down.
[50:27.980 --> 50:28.640]  What's on your mind?
[50:29.680 --> 50:31.560]  I'd like to comment on...
[50:31.560 --> 50:33.620]  This is one of my first time calling.
[50:33.720 --> 50:34.540]  I don't usually call.
[50:34.740 --> 50:35.080]  Okay.
[50:35.300 --> 50:35.680]  I listen.
[50:36.200 --> 50:37.320]  Welcome to the airwaves.
[50:38.340 --> 50:38.500]  Yes.
[50:39.640 --> 50:48.640]  The conversation that we had that you were having about Anonymous breaking into the Klan site and, you know, flipping their messages.
[50:48.860 --> 50:49.120]  Yes.
[50:49.760 --> 50:50.940]  I like that a lot.
[50:51.060 --> 50:51.780]  They should do that more.
[50:51.900 --> 50:54.460]  Maybe you should expose that more is exactly what happened.
[50:54.600 --> 51:01.120]  I think it's a completely legitimate way of expressing yourself, expressing your outrage and protesting something which is inherently evil.
[51:02.820 --> 51:04.440]  I absolutely agree.
[51:07.020 --> 51:08.920]  I don't know what to say about Ferguson.
[51:09.080 --> 51:12.400]  Obviously, it's a big problem in this country.
[51:12.560 --> 51:16.420]  It's been going on since its inception, actually, since slavery.
[51:16.660 --> 51:21.520]  From lynching to whatever to whatever to, you know, up until now.
[51:22.000 --> 51:43.500]  You know, so I don't really have a big comment other than the fact that I listen to the show a lot and I feel enthusiastic when I heard about how they switched their whole account around and had them broadcasting anti-Clan messages on a Klan station.
[51:43.640 --> 51:44.760]  I thought that was hilarious.
[51:45.200 --> 51:46.980]  And I think it's a good way to fight back.
[51:47.060 --> 51:52.340]  It's the hacker spirit combined with activism and sense of justice and all that.
[51:52.340 --> 51:52.980]  It's a good mix.
[51:53.480 --> 51:54.540]  It's a very good thing.
[51:55.280 --> 52:02.320]  I'll just comment somewhat on this thing in St. Louis, in Ferguson, Missouri.
[52:05.560 --> 52:09.560]  I kind of knew that they weren't going to come back with an indictment.
[52:10.600 --> 52:25.620]  And it's almost impossible to understand why if a man is sitting in his car and someone is 150 yards away that he should be so afraid that he'd have to kill him.
[52:25.780 --> 52:27.480]  He should not be a police officer.
[52:27.580 --> 52:29.740]  He should have chosen another profession.
[52:29.920 --> 52:31.720]  He needs psychological treatment.
[52:31.740 --> 52:33.540]  He should be in a straitjacket somewhere.
[52:33.760 --> 52:34.140]  Yeah, absolutely.
[52:34.200 --> 52:36.760]  Cops should be diffusing situations, not panicking.
[52:37.120 --> 52:38.820]  And how many shots did he fire?
[52:38.940 --> 52:39.880]  It was an incredible amount.
[52:40.160 --> 52:42.940]  You know, the fire one is wrong, but the fire as many as he did.
[52:43.060 --> 52:46.500]  And we've seen this so many times where cops just lose it.
[52:46.960 --> 52:48.000]  They lose control.
[52:48.360 --> 52:52.680]  And 12 shots is, you know, it's unbelievable.
[52:53.220 --> 52:56.100]  And, you know, you have a 12-year-old kid with a BB gun.
[52:56.400 --> 52:58.900]  You know, I'm approaching 60.
[52:59.100 --> 53:03.120]  I remember playing cowboys and Native Americans or Indian or whatever you might want to say.
[53:03.540 --> 53:13.780]  During my time, we would have all been dead now because we had BB guns and BB rifles running through the streets and in and out of the woods all the time.
[53:14.040 --> 53:18.000]  And the police knew the difference between a BB gun and a real gun then.
[53:18.560 --> 53:20.000]  You know, I'm also an actor.
[53:20.420 --> 53:25.520]  And there's a big difference between even a prop, a play gun.
[53:26.200 --> 53:28.720]  There's a huge difference between those guns and real guns.
[53:29.420 --> 53:36.020]  And the trained eye can see that and that's what we need cops to be is a trained eye and a rational type of person.
[53:36.140 --> 53:36.920]  Thanks for that call.
[53:37.060 --> 53:38.500]  We're going to try and squeeze in one more.
[53:39.560 --> 53:40.580]  And let's go over here.
[53:40.680 --> 53:41.020]  Good evening.
[53:41.220 --> 53:42.000]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:43.080 --> 53:43.480]  Hi.
[53:43.760 --> 53:47.420]  I'd like to speak with the show.
[53:47.560 --> 53:48.260]  Yeah, wish is granted.
[53:48.420 --> 53:49.600]  You're speaking live on the air right now.
[53:49.880 --> 53:50.620]  Oh, I'm sorry.
[53:50.620 --> 53:53.140]  Well, thanks for your input tonight, guys.
[53:53.640 --> 54:09.140]  I wanted, as a layperson, really, I wanted to know your advisement in terms of how to get involved with Anonymous because I don't have the hack, or I won't say hack because I think it's kind of, you know, negative.
[54:09.140 --> 54:21.840]  but I'd like to, you know, involve that kind of activism in terms of how we use the technology because obviously we don't have very much in the streets to be working in the favor of the layperson.
[54:22.060 --> 54:23.300]  How does one get involved with Anonymous?
[54:23.380 --> 54:24.000]  Do they have meetings?
[54:24.240 --> 54:25.060]  Do they have an office building?
[54:25.260 --> 54:44.780]  The thing about Anonymous is the, Anonymous is a banner that isn't really organized in any way, but if you'd like to get involved, I would recommend that you seek out like sort of standard activist organizations near you who are working for causes you want to help with because I think that's the way you get directly involved with this stuff.
[54:44.900 --> 54:55.900]  Yeah, I think you'd be surprised at how well connected to various activist movements they are and I think basically if you have that desire you will be connected if you're not already.
[54:56.320 --> 55:06.060]  I would just say people who want to understand Anonymous, our friend Gabriella Coleman has a new book out and people should read it and we will have her on the show to discuss it in greater depth.
[55:07.220 --> 55:08.300]  Yes, hopefully soon.
[55:08.960 --> 55:15.520]  You can write to us at Off The Hook O-T-H at 2600.com But that's it for us tonight.
[55:15.900 --> 55:17.840]  We'll be back again next week, same time, same place.
[55:18.000 --> 55:19.240]  Stay tuned for The Personal Computer Show.
[55:19.260 --> 55:20.780]  Let's go out with some traditional Thanksgiving music.
[55:20.880 --> 55:21.020]  Good night.