[00:01.160 --> 00:06.220]  Hi, I'm David Kenney, inviting you to join me Sunday, December 14th at 3 p.m.
[00:06.340 --> 00:09.200]  for the Everything Old is New Again Holiday Concert.
[00:09.380 --> 00:15.820]  It's a benefit for WBAI at the Metropolitan Room at 34 West 22nd Street in Manhattan.
[00:16.180 --> 00:20.850]  Lots of great talent, great music, door prizes, giveaways, and more.
[00:21.170 --> 00:26.400]  That's the Everything Old is New Again Holiday Concert on Sunday, December 14th at 3 p.m.
[00:26.400 --> 00:31.880]  For more information and to buy tickets, go to give2wbai.org.
[00:32.100 --> 00:35.400]  That's give, the number 2, wbai.org.
[00:36.290 --> 00:37.520]  Come and enjoy.
[00:41.660 --> 00:43.180]  Got questions about your computer?
[00:43.320 --> 00:45.980]  You'll have to wait an hour because that's when the Personal Computer Show comes on.
[00:46.160 --> 00:48.320]  We are on right now here on WBAI New York.
[00:48.480 --> 00:49.560]  It's time for Off the Hook.
[00:59.810 --> 01:01.790]  I cut myself while shaving.
[01:02.250 --> 01:04.290]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:05.030 --> 01:07.130]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:09.430 --> 01:12.570]  Put on diddly-bom for the best, expect the worst.
[01:13.170 --> 01:15.050]  I hope that's understood.
[01:15.330 --> 01:16.110]  On diddly-bom!
[02:02.790 --> 02:04.270]  And the very good evening to everybody.
[02:04.410 --> 02:05.870]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:06.210 --> 02:11.270]  Emmanuel Goldstein with you on this Wednesday evening, this snowy Wednesday evening.
[02:11.590 --> 02:13.290]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:13.550 --> 02:14.030]  Good evening.
[02:14.470 --> 02:14.930]  Rob T.
[02:15.050 --> 02:15.470]  Firefly.
[02:15.470 --> 02:16.090]  Good evening.
[02:16.430 --> 02:17.750]  And Bernie S.
[02:19.710 --> 02:20.050]  Oops.
[02:20.330 --> 02:21.070]  I'm sorry, Bernie S.
[02:21.130 --> 02:22.190]  I didn't press a certain button.
[02:22.290 --> 02:22.810]  I should have pressed.
[02:23.010 --> 02:23.790]  Let's try that again.
[02:24.030 --> 02:25.350]  And Bernie S.
[02:25.950 --> 02:27.190]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:27.530 --> 02:28.210]  Okay, that's better.
[02:29.490 --> 02:31.070]  Well, we have a lot to talk about tonight.
[02:31.090 --> 02:31.650]  A lot to cover.
[02:31.730 --> 02:32.170]  A lot of ground.
[02:32.250 --> 02:32.990]  A lot of things happening.
[02:34.410 --> 02:38.090]  I want to start off with something, kind of a comical story, if that's okay with everybody.
[02:38.250 --> 02:39.650]  If we can lighten the mood a little bit.
[02:40.350 --> 02:52.990]  But there's a guy posing as a judge who is saying some of the nuttiest things ever in hopes that somebody will catch on to his ruse and say, okay, who let you in the building?
[02:53.190 --> 02:54.090]  Who gave you the robe?
[02:54.090 --> 02:59.210]  How did you get access to that desk and chair and all that kind of thing?
[02:59.210 --> 03:02.310]  His name is Richard Posner, all right?
[03:02.410 --> 03:05.550]  And the institution that he's somehow broken into is the U.S.
[03:05.650 --> 03:07.170]  Court of Appeals for the Seventh Court.
[03:07.590 --> 03:09.390]  Now, how do I know he's an imposter?
[03:09.490 --> 03:14.650]  Because some of the things he's saying are just simply bizarre and not very judge-like.
[03:14.670 --> 03:16.370]  In fact, not very smart-like.
[03:16.790 --> 03:17.470]  Listen to this.
[03:17.470 --> 03:21.510]  I think privacy is actually overvalued, he said.
[03:21.670 --> 03:26.350]  He said this last Thursday during a conference about privacy and cybercrime.
[03:26.550 --> 03:34.110]  Much of what passes for the name of privacy is really just trying to conceal the disreputable parts of your conduct.
[03:34.570 --> 03:44.930]  Privacy is mainly about trying to improve your social and business opportunities by concealing the sorts of bad activities that would cause other people not to want to deal with you.
[03:46.050 --> 03:48.530]  This is a judge, not a commentator on Fox News.
[03:48.610 --> 03:51.770]  This is a judge, a real judge in the U.S.
[03:51.850 --> 03:54.510]  Court of Appeals, if we are to believe that he is not an imposter.
[03:54.810 --> 03:57.130]  In the name of national security, U.S.
[03:57.630 --> 04:01.410]  lawmakers should give the NSA carte blanche, this Posner guy said.
[04:01.570 --> 04:02.890]  Poser is what his name should be.
[04:02.950 --> 04:03.590]  Let's get rid of the N.
[04:03.730 --> 04:04.370]  It works.
[04:06.510 --> 04:11.950]  Privacy interests should really have very little weight when you're talking about national security.
[04:12.170 --> 04:14.030]  And, of course, we're always talking about national security.
[04:14.030 --> 04:18.150]  The world is an extremely turbulent state.
[04:18.830 --> 04:19.750]  Very dangerous.
[04:21.010 --> 04:23.130]  I don't know if I can add anything to that.
[04:23.210 --> 04:26.170]  His words kind of speak for themselves and tend to break up an audience.
[04:26.910 --> 04:28.510]  Bernie, any comments on this?
[04:28.570 --> 04:29.470]  Do you think this guy is for real?
[04:30.650 --> 04:32.230]  I don't think he is...
[04:32.230 --> 04:32.910]  Excuse me.
[04:33.090 --> 04:39.210]  I don't think he's really serving the public interest by arguing against public privacy.
[04:39.210 --> 04:40.470]  I mean, this is really...
[04:41.410 --> 04:42.010]  I agree.
[04:42.150 --> 04:50.690]  This guy doesn't seem to be a real judge, but he serves on the Seventh Circuit.
[04:50.710 --> 04:54.270]  I think this is a very elaborate yes-men prank.
[04:54.650 --> 04:54.910]  All right?
[04:55.070 --> 04:59.970]  And, in fact, can we call the yes-men and find out if they actually set this up years ago?
[05:00.150 --> 05:01.230]  How long has he been on the bench for?
[05:01.310 --> 05:01.690]  Does anybody know?
[05:01.790 --> 05:02.370]  A very long time.
[05:02.510 --> 05:03.270]  I mean, the thing...
[05:03.270 --> 05:03.510]  They're good.
[05:03.510 --> 05:10.010]  The thing that's so weird about judges is that, you know, Judge Posner has also taken some positions that people on this program might like.
[05:10.170 --> 05:18.170]  He's taken positions saying that the current systems of patent and copyright law favor the rights holders too much.
[05:18.270 --> 05:19.350]  Well, that's how he ropes you in.
[05:19.430 --> 05:22.730]  He says some things you like, and then he hits you with something bizarre and crazy like this.
[05:22.850 --> 05:27.590]  I mean, he has no respect for the concept of privacy at all.
[05:27.830 --> 05:32.190]  Basically, just privacy is analogous to criminality in his mind.
[05:32.190 --> 05:35.230]  And, you know, I don't mind people who think that.
[05:35.330 --> 05:36.950]  I really don't because people think all kinds of things.
[05:37.110 --> 05:43.370]  But a judge, a judge in a federal court, that's very disturbing to me.
[05:43.630 --> 05:48.450]  I mean, I would never advise anyone to do this because you would get in a lot of trouble if you did.
[05:48.610 --> 05:49.590]  So don't do this.
[05:49.730 --> 05:56.610]  But it would be highly amusing if someone were to find out, you know, whatever it is, he must have some secrets and make those public.
[05:57.370 --> 06:01.770]  I'm sure Anonymous is on this already if they haven't posted it all over the internet.
[06:02.530 --> 06:12.770]  A certain degree of privacy, he concedes, is perhaps a precondition for freedom, political freedom, artistic freedom, personal autonomy.
[06:13.030 --> 06:15.710]  It's kind of baked into the nature of the democratic...
[06:15.710 --> 06:16.750]  Wait, actually, he didn't say that.
[06:16.770 --> 06:21.410]  That was somebody who was opposing when he said, I'm sorry, I got confused here.
[06:21.490 --> 06:23.330]  I thought he was saying something reasonable and he wasn't.
[06:23.330 --> 06:28.870]  But I can't find a single thing he said that I can agree with in this particular story.
[06:29.470 --> 06:31.490]  Now, okay, so he said all this.
[06:31.530 --> 06:32.370]  He said this at a conference.
[06:32.370 --> 06:34.050]  But is he ruling on anything?
[06:34.190 --> 06:36.850]  Do we have to worry that this guy's going to set everything back?
[06:37.510 --> 06:37.930]  Yes.
[06:38.170 --> 06:38.650]  Okay, go ahead.
[06:39.350 --> 06:43.430]  Well, he's sitting on the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals.
[06:43.570 --> 06:44.390]  It's a very high court.
[06:44.810 --> 06:46.930]  There's, what, nine circuit courts around the United States?
[06:46.930 --> 06:54.950]  And he sits on the highest court in that circuit, part of the federal judicial system.
[06:55.090 --> 06:55.910]  So this is dangerous.
[06:56.050 --> 06:58.810]  He was appointed by Ronald Reagan back in 1981.
[06:59.350 --> 07:01.990]  So he probably won't be on the bench too much longer.
[07:02.110 --> 07:05.990]  But as you probably know, Manuel, federal judges are appointed for life.
[07:06.190 --> 07:13.190]  So it's not like, you know, he will have to, has like a term he'll have to step down from.
[07:13.330 --> 07:14.370]  It's a lifetime appointment.
[07:15.210 --> 07:17.510]  And a lifetime sentence for the rest of us, I guess.
[07:17.930 --> 07:18.110]  Yeah.
[07:18.310 --> 07:22.030]  Because we'll have to deal with the wreckage of whatever he decides is right.
[07:22.290 --> 07:25.750]  Well, it just goes to show the fights that we are up against.
[07:26.270 --> 07:35.030]  It might seem like we're preaching to the choir, but sometimes there's some real challenges ahead of us that we have to overcome.
[07:35.030 --> 07:43.070]  So there was a case that Judge Pozner ruled in, and it was a challenge to the Illinois wiretapping law.
[07:43.250 --> 07:51.050]  And some people wanted to record police conversations without the consent of the police officers involved.
[07:51.050 --> 08:05.070]  And, you know, the ACLU and others made the argument that, you know, police officers, you know, on duty in their line of work don't necessarily enjoy the same privacy protections as private citizens might in their homes.
[08:05.070 --> 08:06.450]  So it should be legal.
[08:06.450 --> 08:09.950]  Well, do you want to guess what Judge Pozner thought?
[08:10.190 --> 08:15.690]  Well, I'll bet that he didn't think that police officers are the same as people and they get special rights.
[08:16.270 --> 08:17.330]  You are correct.
[08:17.470 --> 08:17.630]  Okay.
[08:18.330 --> 08:19.070]  See, I know this guy.
[08:19.170 --> 08:20.250]  I can tell this guy.
[08:20.250 --> 08:26.310]  So apparently he believes in privacy for police while they're doing their work, but not for ordinary people.
[08:26.650 --> 08:29.170]  I'm finding it hard to reconcile this position.
[08:29.170 --> 08:31.170]  I'm sure he can somehow do it.
[08:31.290 --> 08:32.490]  Who appointed this guy?
[08:32.870 --> 08:34.310]  Bernie said that Reagan did.
[08:34.370 --> 08:35.150]  I assume that's right.
[08:35.710 --> 08:35.990]  All right.
[08:36.090 --> 08:41.370]  Well, yeah, these things, they leave a legacy that lasts a long, long time.
[08:41.510 --> 08:43.870]  So it's important to pay attention.
[08:44.150 --> 08:44.250]  Okay.
[08:44.310 --> 08:44.650]  Moving on.
[08:44.730 --> 08:45.910]  We do have a lot to talk about tonight.
[08:45.910 --> 08:51.030]  Our friends over at the Chaos Communication Congress have had some challenges this past week.
[08:51.190 --> 08:59.090]  Remember a couple of years ago, there was a story, actually last year, a story circulating about what the British Prime Minister wanted to do with the Internet.
[08:59.510 --> 09:06.690]  There's an article, actually, that was translated from a Frankfurt newspaper that is on the CCC website called Let's Make Our Internet Prettier.
[09:06.790 --> 09:13.930]  The British Prime Minister would like to filter pornography out of the Internet, as well as certain nasty words and things like that.
[09:13.930 --> 09:24.530]  But, yeah, and this week, what wound up happening was that the CCC site was filtered from the U.K., from a great number of providers.
[09:24.790 --> 09:26.810]  Here's how they phrase it on their site.
[09:26.870 --> 09:33.310]  A significant portion of British citizens are currently blocked from accessing the Chaos Computer Club's website.
[09:33.630 --> 09:41.430]  On top of that, Vodafone customers are blocked from accessing the ticket site to this year's Chaos Communication Congress.
[09:41.430 --> 09:46.590]  So, if you have a Vodafone service, apparently you can't access the site to buy tickets.
[09:46.710 --> 09:47.130]  It's amazing.
[09:47.430 --> 09:54.370]  Now, since July of 2013, a government-backed so-called opt-out list censors the open Internet.
[09:54.570 --> 10:00.630]  These Internet filters, authorized by Prime Minister David Cameron, are implemented by the U.K.'s major Internet service providers.
[10:00.910 --> 10:09.450]  Dubbed as the Great Firewall of Britain, the lists block adult content, as well as material related to alcohol, drugs, smoking...
[10:10.090 --> 10:10.450]  Smoking?
[10:10.710 --> 10:13.770]  And even... How many websites are devoted to smoking?
[10:13.950 --> 10:15.330]  I've never seen a website...
[10:15.330 --> 10:16.590]  I mean, the tobacco companies...
[10:16.590 --> 10:17.850]  Well, why would I go to their website?
[10:18.630 --> 10:21.550]  Why does anybody have to go to the Marvel website?
[10:21.790 --> 10:25.110]  But a website that talks about smoking, shows people smoking, what are they thinking?
[10:25.250 --> 10:25.550]  I have no idea.
[10:25.550 --> 10:26.730]  It's not an interest of mine.
[10:26.850 --> 10:29.350]  Well, yeah, but it's an interest of mine when something is cut off like that.
[10:29.350 --> 10:35.770]  I mean, I agree that people who are interested should have the right to look at smoking information, I guess.
[10:35.770 --> 10:39.530]  I'm going to start looking at it right now, in fact, because I have the right to do that.
[10:39.670 --> 10:41.690]  Smoking, drinking, debauchery of all sorts.
[10:41.810 --> 10:42.310]  Why not?
[10:42.410 --> 10:43.450]  That's life.
[10:43.950 --> 10:44.770]  But guess what?
[10:44.850 --> 10:48.590]  It wasn't... Even though people do smoke at CCC, I've seen it happen.
[10:48.730 --> 10:49.650]  Yes, it's amazing.
[10:50.330 --> 10:52.850]  That's not why this site got blocked in England.
[10:52.970 --> 10:55.530]  They were blocked because they were labeled as... Ready?
[10:56.250 --> 10:56.650]  Extremist.
[10:58.590 --> 10:58.990]  Extremist.
[10:59.370 --> 11:00.790]  You know, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
[11:00.790 --> 11:03.330]  Because I'm sure to many people, we are extremists.
[11:03.410 --> 11:04.870]  This radio station is extremist.
[11:05.730 --> 11:09.230]  There's all sorts of ways you can point fingers and call names.
[11:09.290 --> 11:11.030]  But they really did it in the UK.
[11:11.070 --> 11:13.850]  They referred to CCC as extremist.
[11:14.370 --> 11:20.990]  Now, users can opt out of censorship or you can bypass it by technical means, but only a minority of users know how to bypass those filters.
[11:20.990 --> 11:34.470]  Accessing the server directly via, and get ready for this, HTTP colon slash slash 213.73.89.123 currently appears to work quite well, rendering the censorship efforts useless.
[11:34.610 --> 11:35.890]  That's if you know how to do that.
[11:36.810 --> 11:38.870]  Internet filters simply do not work.
[11:38.990 --> 11:50.990]  But leaving technical limitations aside, the CCC's example shows that unsolicited overblocking, meaning wrongly classifying websites, is a common phenomenon in large censorship infrastructures.
[11:51.130 --> 11:57.490]  However, it may well be that the CCC is considered extremists, judged by British standards of freedom of speech.
[11:58.770 --> 12:03.890]  CCC spokesperson, Dirk Engling, said, when these filters were introduced, their abuse was imminent.
[12:04.510 --> 12:09.850]  Today, we are shocked to learn that they not only block access to our site, but also to our conference.
[12:10.090 --> 12:11.190]  Dirk, are you really shocked?
[12:11.210 --> 12:11.870]  I'm not shocked.
[12:12.050 --> 12:13.670]  I mean, that's a word they like to use, but I'm not...
[12:13.670 --> 12:15.450]  I was waiting for something like this to happen.
[12:15.450 --> 12:16.130]  I'm appalled.
[12:16.330 --> 12:17.590]  I'm outraged, but shocked?
[12:18.030 --> 12:18.670]  Not really.
[12:18.870 --> 12:28.370]  We see this as proof that censorship infrastructure, no matter for which reasons it was set up, and no matter what country you are in, it will always be abused for political reasons.
[12:28.370 --> 12:29.850]  And that is certainly the truth.
[12:30.030 --> 12:32.890]  Well, you know, censoring the Internet is a pretty extremist thing to do.
[12:32.990 --> 12:37.170]  So I guess it's kind of awkward that the British government had to add their own sites to the block list.
[12:37.170 --> 12:45.910]  I mean, so people can't see their extremist opinions on, like, things that people should be able to look at, types of porn people should be allowed to enjoy, things like that.
[12:45.990 --> 12:50.650]  I mean, that's all pretty extremist, and I'm sorry that they have that awkward day at work.
[12:50.810 --> 12:56.010]  But another side effect, and another reinforcement of the statement that Internet filters do not work.
[12:56.010 --> 13:10.330]  If you're going to block, say, the sites about smoking, it's very, very common for things to get blocked along with that collateral damage for sites like instructions on how to quit smoking, health information for smokers, alternatives to smoking and things like that,
[13:10.430 --> 13:15.690]  and they'll just get caught up in, you know, and lumped in with the things that they're trying to work against.
[13:15.810 --> 13:17.170]  So everyone suffers.
[13:17.310 --> 13:20.410]  Breast cancer awareness websites were blocked at one point.
[13:20.650 --> 13:21.910]  There's all kinds of...
[13:21.910 --> 13:28.730]  Leave it to the people to decide what it is they want to look at, and then if that disturbs you, find out why they're fascinated by these disturbing topics.
[13:28.910 --> 13:32.910]  But cutting them off is a very bad idea and it never works.
[13:33.030 --> 13:39.070]  In this particular case, it's causing harm because people aren't able to access the site at a critical time.
[13:39.830 --> 13:45.870]  The Chaos Communication Congress, which I will be at this year in Hamburg, is only a couple of weeks away.
[13:46.170 --> 13:49.170]  And obviously, they want people to know about it.
[13:49.350 --> 13:50.810]  You can get tickets.
[13:51.090 --> 14:00.610]  Go to https colon slash slash tickets.events.ccc.de And hopefully, if you're not in England, you can reach it.
[14:00.670 --> 14:02.370]  And hopefully, if you are in England, you can figure out how to do that.
[14:02.370 --> 14:04.370]  But I understand they'll be closing this pretty soon.
[14:04.370 --> 14:06.010]  So if you want to get tickets in advance...
[14:06.010 --> 14:10.190]  They have a huge venue now, so it doesn't sell out in three seconds like it used to.
[14:10.970 --> 14:12.190]  Those are some stressful days.
[14:12.330 --> 14:15.350]  But that's the latest news from there.
[14:15.370 --> 14:16.710]  And we'll keep an eye on that situation.
[14:17.890 --> 14:18.290]  Yeah.
[14:18.390 --> 14:23.630]  I mean, it remains unclear if this is sort of an accident or intentional.
[14:23.990 --> 14:26.910]  Obviously, either way is extremely problematic.
[14:27.390 --> 14:32.750]  If sites can be blocked by accident, that's terrible if they actually think that the CCC is actually extremist.
[14:32.950 --> 14:34.010]  That's also terrible.
[14:34.230 --> 14:39.410]  But it just goes to show that these sort of unaccountable filters, there's no insight into the process.
[14:39.650 --> 14:46.410]  Even presumably after the CCC will get removed from this list, we'll never know why they were on it in the first place.
[14:46.590 --> 14:48.770]  I don't know how you accidentally label somebody extremist.
[14:48.930 --> 14:55.330]  Well, because there's too many websites to actually label them all with human review and careful thinking.
[14:55.330 --> 14:57.350]  So they have algorithms that are bad.
[14:57.530 --> 14:58.510]  Maybe they're going through a lot.
[14:58.690 --> 14:59.790]  It's extremely interesting.
[14:59.890 --> 15:01.890]  Their finger slipped and they hit extremist instead.
[15:02.090 --> 15:02.670]  I've seen it happen.
[15:02.870 --> 15:07.370]  You know, if internet discourse has taught me anything, it's that anybody who doesn't agree with you is extremist.
[15:07.550 --> 15:08.850]  So that's how that works.
[15:08.850 --> 15:10.670]  Well, then there's a lot of extremists out there for sure.
[15:10.830 --> 15:11.750]  That's a crazy position, Rob.
[15:11.770 --> 15:13.610]  I don't know how you can take such an extreme idea.
[15:13.610 --> 15:14.910]  You guys paste labels on each other.
[15:15.850 --> 15:18.350]  But our site, I get this all the time.
[15:18.490 --> 15:19.330]  And it's very hard to fight.
[15:19.430 --> 15:21.090]  People write to us and say, your site is blocked.
[15:21.090 --> 15:24.450]  And it's always the label of something like hacking.
[15:24.630 --> 15:27.250]  Like hacking itself is bad.
[15:27.350 --> 15:30.350]  And there's no hacking on 2600.com.
[15:30.470 --> 15:31.990]  We simply post the radio shows.
[15:32.010 --> 15:32.650]  We post news.
[15:33.150 --> 15:35.050]  I don't know what people think hacking is.
[15:35.090 --> 15:38.150]  But if you go on that website, you don't become a hacker.
[15:38.290 --> 15:39.350]  You don't start hacking things.
[15:39.490 --> 15:40.730]  There are no tools there.
[15:41.270 --> 15:42.850]  But people, they see it.
[15:42.910 --> 15:43.510]  They hear about it.
[15:43.570 --> 15:44.710]  And they just label it.
[15:45.010 --> 15:48.330]  And it's impossible for us to fight it.
[15:48.330 --> 15:55.250]  Because usually the people that tell us are in an institution that subscribes to a service that they don't have any real access to.
[15:55.290 --> 15:57.990]  And we have to go to the service and get them to change something.
[15:58.150 --> 16:00.890]  And they don't respond to us because we don't subscribe to them.
[16:01.090 --> 16:02.310]  And sometimes they change it.
[16:02.350 --> 16:04.810]  But then they just change it from hacking to crime.
[16:04.990 --> 16:08.250]  That doesn't help either because then it gets blocked again.
[16:08.250 --> 16:10.390]  Even though every news site in the world talks about crime.
[16:10.550 --> 16:14.530]  So it's a fight we've been fighting ever since the web started to exist.
[16:14.790 --> 16:16.790]  People blocking us out of ignorance.
[16:16.790 --> 16:18.870]  And I don't see an end to it anytime soon.
[16:19.050 --> 16:20.810]  Will they also block the CIA's website?
[16:21.030 --> 16:21.770]  No, of course not.
[16:21.970 --> 16:22.270]  There's plenty of crime there.
[16:22.350 --> 16:23.190]  They don't block that.
[16:23.330 --> 16:23.470]  No.
[16:23.590 --> 16:23.910]  Yeah.
[16:24.210 --> 16:24.970]  Especially now.
[16:25.230 --> 16:27.070]  But it's frustrating.
[16:27.330 --> 16:37.230]  And if anyone has ideas on how to fight that effectively or how to report it more effectively, maybe we should have a little display on our site telling who is censoring us and who is not.
[16:37.310 --> 16:38.310]  I'd love to do something like that.
[16:38.610 --> 16:39.230]  Write to us.
[16:39.370 --> 16:42.010]  OTH at 2600 dot com.
[16:42.010 --> 16:50.250]  You know, a recent poll said that Americans fear getting hacked more than they fear murder or terrorism.
[16:50.390 --> 16:50.830]  Did you know that?
[16:51.310 --> 16:57.170]  Well, I mean, you should fear it more than terrorism because the odds of being in a terrorist attack are pretty damn slim.
[16:57.430 --> 16:57.570]  Yeah.
[16:57.630 --> 17:01.410]  I mean, all these things are incredibly unlikely.
[17:01.410 --> 17:02.490]  So I don't really...
[17:03.110 --> 17:08.690]  You're probably more likely to get hacked than to be murdered by someone you don't know or become a victim of terrorism.
[17:08.690 --> 17:10.410]  But 69% of U.S.
[17:10.790 --> 17:15.530]  citizens say being victimized by a computer hacker ranks as their greatest worry.
[17:15.730 --> 17:16.690]  Their greatest worry.
[17:17.850 --> 17:24.830]  That's, you know, that's against being hit by a bus, getting a horrible disease, being abducted by aliens, you name it.
[17:24.970 --> 17:29.070]  Everything in the world comes second to being victimized by a computer hacker.
[17:29.170 --> 17:36.030]  And I just think maybe we should somehow take advantage of this because if people have this kind of fear of the hacker community, it seems like we should be able to get whatever we want, right?
[17:36.210 --> 17:46.590]  Well, I think in this context, getting hacked is a huge, huge umbrella term just because the internet and electronic devices and data in general have taken such a central place in all our lives.
[17:46.710 --> 17:56.310]  We all carry around the tiny box in our pocket with a ton of private info and, you know, info on our communication networks and who we know and what we're doing and on and on and on.
[17:56.490 --> 18:17.230]  Whereas I think it's analogous to sort of past generations worrying about, like, someone poisoning the reservoir and all of a sudden the water that's in everyone's house has gone bad or, like, radio waves programming your children's brains with alien signals or something just because it's something mysterious that's all around us that a lot of people just don't know enough about to properly
[18:17.230 --> 18:19.430]  understand exactly what's going on with it.
[18:19.490 --> 18:24.570]  So it's there, it's scary, it's a mystery, and I'm afraid of it turning on me and eating me.
[18:24.570 --> 18:25.610]  Is it your greatest fear?
[18:26.370 --> 18:28.290]  Just a small clarification, Rob.
[18:28.410 --> 18:35.230]  Your tiny device and my tiny device in emails and most other people's does have private information on them, but Judge Posner's just not.
[18:35.290 --> 18:37.990]  Let's not talk about our tiny devices on the radio.
[18:38.230 --> 18:40.170]  We can devote time to that some other time.
[18:40.450 --> 18:44.690]  But some other interesting facts about all this.
[18:45.170 --> 18:55.070]  Among upper-income Americans whose annual income is $75,000 or more, 85%, 85% of them rank credit card hacking as their greatest concern.
[18:55.430 --> 18:57.870]  Lower-income Americans, 50%.
[18:58.530 --> 19:00.770]  Those who have no credit cards, even lower.
[19:01.950 --> 19:06.570]  So it's really something to think what people are afraid of.
[19:06.630 --> 19:10.090]  First of all, you're not liable for that kind of fraud in the first place if you pay attention.
[19:10.090 --> 19:13.330]  So it's not something you should be staying up nights worrying about.
[19:14.350 --> 19:21.170]  And the other fears that follow this, your home being burglarized when you're not there, 45%.
[19:21.170 --> 19:24.170]  I would rank my home being burglarized when I am there, higher than that.
[19:24.310 --> 19:25.650]  But apparently that wasn't one of the questions.
[19:25.890 --> 19:30.370]  Having your car stolen or broken into, 42%, getting mugged, 31%, and etc.
[19:31.230 --> 19:33.810]  So yeah, that's something about a little taste of fear.
[19:34.570 --> 19:35.250]  So, I mean...
[19:35.250 --> 19:35.630]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[19:36.470 --> 19:59.070]  As far as fearing hacking, I think that a lot of politicians and government spokespeople, as well as corporations, are largely responsible for the public's long impressions of what hacking is generally all about and what really they should be afraid of.
[19:59.230 --> 20:09.030]  Of course, these same politicians use this fear-mongering to push through legislation that makes them think that the public makes them...
[20:09.030 --> 20:21.730]  The public feels safer as a result of their actions and corporations who promulgate this fear-mongering profit from selling us all security products and things like that.
[20:21.830 --> 20:32.930]  Credit card companies, for instance, they will gladly sell you services to make you feel safer about credit card fraud when they themselves are the ones who are liable for credit card fraud, like if you pay attention, like you said.
[20:33.570 --> 20:35.350]  Yeah, I agree with that very much.
[20:35.470 --> 20:36.190]  I think it's...
[20:36.190 --> 20:50.530]  I think the sort of powers that be have a whole lot to answer for because everyone's willing to say, oh, you know, be afraid of getting hacked but we'll sell you something in a magic box that'll protect you from it or you're afraid of getting hacked, vote for me and I'll make it all go away.
[20:50.690 --> 20:57.450]  And yeah, there is this cultural sort of shift that's been forcefully brought about that, you know, based on ignorance.
[20:58.130 --> 21:02.650]  I would just like to reassure the American public to the extent that any of it cares what I think.
[21:02.970 --> 21:13.350]  In the past five years or so, I've been a victim of three of these things, the credit card number being used without my permission and I've also had my apartment broken into and I was mugged once.
[21:13.510 --> 21:21.450]  And of the three, the credit card use without my permission was by far the least troublesome and disruptive to my daily life.
[21:21.530 --> 21:25.810]  I just called the credit card company and I think I had to sign something or something.
[21:25.810 --> 21:28.810]  This is the first time I'm hearing that your apartment got broken into or you got mugged.
[21:29.150 --> 21:30.410]  You knew about it at the time.
[21:30.590 --> 21:30.650]  I did?
[21:30.650 --> 21:31.310]  It was a few years ago.
[21:31.430 --> 21:31.530]  Yeah.
[21:31.750 --> 21:31.930]  Oh.
[21:32.190 --> 21:32.410]  Yeah.
[21:32.590 --> 21:32.810]  Okay.
[21:32.970 --> 21:34.230]  Well, we'll revisit that later.
[21:35.290 --> 21:36.650]  Jeffrey Jake Commander.
[21:37.510 --> 21:38.670]  He's a rock guitarist.
[21:38.770 --> 21:41.990]  He's played with the Electric Light Orchestra, George Harrison, Elton John, among others.
[21:42.430 --> 21:44.970]  Well, he was unnoticed as he walked through the halls of the U.S.
[21:45.070 --> 21:47.810]  District Court in Alexandria early Friday afternoon.
[21:48.450 --> 21:50.290]  No, he wasn't meeting up with Judge Posner.
[21:50.410 --> 21:55.950]  He was meeting up with a different judge and he was found indigent by that federal judge.
[21:56.030 --> 21:58.630]  I didn't know that was a crime to be found indigent, but he was.
[21:59.090 --> 22:03.950]  A 66-year-old was accompanied by a court-appointed lawyer and his attorney basically...
[22:03.950 --> 22:05.850]  He was a real good attorney, apparently.
[22:06.190 --> 22:13.710]  Nearly four years to the day earlier, as his attorney put it, commander like the crew of Gilligan's Island went on a three-hour tour that led to disastrous consequences.
[22:14.450 --> 22:14.950]  All right.
[22:15.010 --> 22:15.590]  Here's a rule.
[22:15.590 --> 22:23.190]  When your lawyer starts making references to Gilligan's Island, it's time to look elsewhere for legal advice, really.
[22:23.730 --> 22:26.330]  Anyway, Commander was...
[22:26.330 --> 22:27.790]  That's a great name to have, Commander.
[22:28.010 --> 22:35.950]  He was one of 13 people charged last year as members of the underground group Anonymous in attacks against financial institutions and other companies.
[22:36.090 --> 22:38.150]  Initially, he faced up to 10 years in federal prison.
[22:39.090 --> 22:41.750]  Later, though, the case was quietly downgraded to a misdemeanor.
[22:42.030 --> 22:43.030]  Interesting how that happens.
[22:43.270 --> 22:47.170]  On Friday, he was sentenced to 10 days in the Alexandria jail.
[22:47.370 --> 22:48.710]  He'll be getting out any time now.
[22:48.930 --> 22:56.990]  So if anyone needs a rock guitarist who has played with the likes of George Harrison, Elton John, and the White Orchestra, he will be available, I would imagine.
[22:58.050 --> 23:03.830]  So, at first, they were depicting him as a cybercrime mastermind.
[23:04.450 --> 23:10.050]  And now, he's basically being referred to as an online server who stumbled his way into an unfamiliar chat room.
[23:10.570 --> 23:20.590]  And once there, in what he later would call an impulsive, spurious, and foolish decision, he clicked on a link that would lead him years later right into the crosshairs of the Justice Department.
[23:20.790 --> 23:21.890]  So apparently, it's that easy.
[23:22.030 --> 23:26.610]  You just click on a link to launch an attack and that makes you a criminal.
[23:28.470 --> 23:28.870]  Right?
[23:29.090 --> 23:29.270]  Okay.
[23:29.470 --> 23:30.770]  Is there a list of links?
[23:31.450 --> 23:32.250]  They did not.
[23:32.430 --> 23:34.030]  The story does not print the actual links.
[23:34.110 --> 23:35.510]  I would imagine they're probably outdated too.
[23:35.630 --> 23:39.030]  But if you hang out in the right chat rooms, Mike, you will find plenty of links to click on.
[23:39.350 --> 23:43.730]  And then, we'll be reporting on what you're doing a few years in a Virginia courtroom.
[23:44.010 --> 23:45.070]  I have to go to Virginia?
[23:45.070 --> 23:46.490]  That's worse than the 10 days in jail?
[23:46.550 --> 23:48.850]  Well, it depends where the aggrieved party is.
[23:49.150 --> 23:53.950]  So if you attack, say, a government and they're in D.C., you have to go there.
[23:54.090 --> 23:57.850]  If you attack a company that's based there, that's where you have to show up.
[23:57.850 --> 24:06.230]  I always love in these cases the huge, huge disparities that end up between the sort of projection of what this is to the public sphere and the reality of it afterward.
[24:06.430 --> 24:19.790]  Like, you know, in the papers, he'll be this rock star mastermind criminal who receives heavy penalties for doing something terrible when the reality of the situation is some indigent guy got 10 days for doing something naughty.
[24:20.290 --> 24:28.190]  Well, it's a good way to get attention and to bring those fear numbers up is to make it as evil-sounding as you possibly can when the story first hits.
[24:28.350 --> 24:33.910]  And then afterwards, when it's on page 23 or something and no one's paying attention, that's when you actually let reality set in.
[24:34.950 --> 24:41.230]  Okay, so speaking of hacking and all kinds of craziness, the whole Sony thing has gotten even crazier.
[24:41.970 --> 24:45.530]  Let's have a little catching up on the timeline.
[24:45.810 --> 24:57.370]  All right, in June of 2014, the North Korean government denounced the upcoming film The Interview as undisguised sponsoring of terrorism as well as an act of war.
[24:57.570 --> 25:00.050]  And that was in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon.
[25:00.710 --> 25:11.950]  North Korea promised decisive and merciless countermeasures if the US administration tacitly approves or supports the comedy film that will be coming out or I guess at some point.
[25:12.170 --> 25:16.170]  To be clear, though, the North Korean government, like, mostly what they do is denounce things.
[25:16.370 --> 25:19.050]  They denounce, they threaten, they say all kinds of grave consequences.
[25:19.230 --> 25:23.670]  If they did a little more governing and a little less denouncing, they'd probably be better off.
[25:23.670 --> 25:28.750]  But, as it is, you know, denounced by the North Korean government, not a huge honor.
[25:28.950 --> 25:34.950]  Well, a month before the movie's release in November, so I guess the movie's coming out almost any day now.
[25:35.010 --> 25:36.610]  That's going to be something.
[25:37.190 --> 25:40.370]  A hacker group calling themselves Guardians of Peace.
[25:40.370 --> 25:42.290]  That's what GOP stands for.
[25:43.030 --> 25:51.590]  They took over the internal computer system at Sony, displaying their own messages and skeleton image and seized control of promotional Twitter accounts for Hollywood movies.
[25:51.790 --> 26:01.270]  After employees were told not to use their computers after the attack, a Sony picture source said there are people sitting at their desks trying to do their job with a pen and paper.
[26:01.930 --> 26:04.910]  And that's what we all had to picture in our minds.
[26:05.390 --> 26:13.310]  On Saturday, November 27th, five unreleased Sony films hit the web on copyright-infringing file-sharing hubs.
[26:13.670 --> 26:19.870]  The movies included Annie, Still Alice, Mr. Turner, To Write Love on Her Arms and Fury.
[26:20.090 --> 26:22.250]  But the interview, that did not show up there.
[26:22.630 --> 26:27.410]  It would be kind of, I guess, if they were protesting the interview, that would be a reason why they wouldn't spread that film around.
[26:28.030 --> 26:39.290]  After just two days on the web, Brad Pitt's new flick Fury had been, oh, that's Fury, had been downloaded by over 888,000 unique IP addresses.
[26:40.010 --> 26:42.110]  You can't buy that kind of publicity, I don't think.
[26:42.850 --> 26:47.750]  On Monday, December 1st, the FBI launched an investigation with the studio's support.
[26:48.610 --> 26:55.570]  The FBI said, we're working with our interagency partners to investigate the recently reported cyber intrusion at Sony Pictures Entertainment.
[26:55.870 --> 27:06.330]  The targeting of public and private sector computer networks remains a significant threat and the FBI will continue to identify, pursue, and defeat individuals and groups who pose a threat in cyberspace.
[27:06.550 --> 27:13.330]  Then on Tuesday, the day after, the salaries of 17 top paid executives of Sony Picture Entertainment were leaked online.
[27:14.170 --> 27:22.870]  Fusion's Kevin Roos published the spreadsheet explaining, I received a link to a public pastebin file containing the documents from an anonymous emailer.
[27:23.110 --> 27:31.190]  One interesting tidbit caught my eye, a spreadsheet containing the salaries of more than 6,000 Sony Pictures employees, including the company's top executives.
[27:31.790 --> 27:37.470]  The cyber attack also made public the employees' names, job titles, home addresses, bonus plans, and salaries.
[27:38.070 --> 27:52.610]  On Wednesday, the 3rd, yeah, literally every day something's happening, Sony CEO Michael Linton and co-chairman Amy Pascal, whose $3 million salaries were revealed in the previous day's attack, send their first company-wide memo calling the situation a brazen attack on our company,
[27:52.830 --> 28:01.470]  our employees, and our business partners, adding that the release of employee and other information are malicious criminal acts and we are working closely with law enforcement.
[28:02.970 --> 28:09.630]  Additionally, also on that day, the paychecks for the interview were revealed for the people involved with that.
[28:10.010 --> 28:11.950]  So that was kind of funny as well.
[28:12.350 --> 28:17.850]  On Thursday, December the 4th, leaked Sony employee notes revealed they're not Adam Sandler fans.
[28:19.150 --> 28:22.370]  I guess some personal information that they didn't really want to get out.
[28:22.550 --> 28:29.010]  On Friday, December 5th, the hackers sent an email threatening employees' families if they don't support GOP's goals.
[28:29.270 --> 28:37.630]  The creepy message stated, please sign your name to object the false of the company at the email address below if you don't want to suffer damage.
[28:37.630 --> 28:40.450]  If you don't, not only you, but your family will be in danger.
[28:42.250 --> 28:46.670]  Well, it just continues and it hasn't stopped yet.
[28:46.750 --> 28:50.570]  All kinds of bits of information are being released almost on a daily basis.
[28:50.930 --> 28:57.930]  And I believe what we reported last week, correct me if I'm wrong here, 100 terabytes of information was what was captured?
[28:58.230 --> 28:59.910]  I had seen that from one source.
[29:00.030 --> 29:02.590]  Another source said it's closer to 40, but either way.
[29:03.750 --> 29:05.330]  How do you not notice this?
[29:05.330 --> 29:12.390]  Even 40 terabytes of information, especially given that so much of this appears to be text in compressed files, that is huge.
[29:12.550 --> 29:19.170]  Anybody who knows anything about the size of data knows this is an amazing, ridiculous, frankly, stupid amount of data.
[29:19.810 --> 29:25.990]  Well, just to even have that amount of data, but to have somebody pilfer it and not notice that they're doing that, you can't just download this in a night.
[29:26.090 --> 29:27.430]  It takes a long, long time.
[29:27.430 --> 29:35.310]  I mean, some of the data was video data, which is, you know, 40 terabytes of video data is a lot less than 40 terabytes of text data.
[29:35.470 --> 29:36.630]  Well, it takes just as long to download.
[29:36.950 --> 29:38.950]  No, it's just less stuff.
[29:39.330 --> 29:41.830]  Okay, but it's still a lot of data that they should have noticed.
[29:41.870 --> 29:42.250]  Yes, Bernie?
[29:42.690 --> 30:07.670]  I just want to point out, you were quoting a Sony spokesperson who said something like the release of its employees information was criminal and weren't there other adjectives that go along with that, criminal, whatever, but I happen to agree with that Sony spokesperson that Sony's release of that information through really obviously terrible security practices is criminal and they should be held
[30:07.670 --> 30:08.550]  accountable for that.
[30:09.630 --> 30:13.670]  I think you're referring to the people running the systems, right, not the people hacking into them.
[30:14.190 --> 30:23.130]  No, I'm saying that Sony released this information about its employees by not securing it.
[30:23.810 --> 30:26.590]  So, you're saying Sony is responsible for what happened.
[30:27.390 --> 30:27.950]  Absolutely.
[30:28.450 --> 30:31.370]  They did not adequately protect...
[30:31.370 --> 30:33.890]  I don't really care about their intellectual properties so much.
[30:33.950 --> 30:41.330]  I care about their employees' private information, their social security numbers, their HR files, all that stuff.
[30:41.410 --> 30:42.210]  Yeah, well, that's...
[30:42.210 --> 30:42.630]  ...informations.
[30:42.990 --> 30:49.050]  And Sony basically released this information by failing to protect it from outside.
[30:49.290 --> 30:51.930]  I agree with Sony that they should be held accountable.
[30:52.130 --> 30:58.290]  All those individuals, that's collateral damage in their ineptitude at not securing this data, having the data everywhere.
[30:58.630 --> 31:02.610]  Who knows how many other people had access to it before these guys got their hands on it.
[31:03.310 --> 31:04.650]  The whole thing is just...
[31:04.650 --> 31:14.850]  It's really bizarre, but the thing I've been hearing over and over again is that this was an unprecedented, undetectable attack that could happen to anybody.
[31:15.290 --> 31:20.410]  And I'm beginning to think to myself, is this something that they are simply putting out there to cover their asses?
[31:20.550 --> 31:23.630]  Because if it was detectable, they have absolutely no excuse.
[31:23.810 --> 31:32.570]  And to say that this is something that nobody has ever heard of before is what you would say when you find yourself actually caught at not doing your job.
[31:32.870 --> 31:33.490]  I don't know.
[31:33.630 --> 31:38.710]  If this is something that's completely new and undetectable, let's have some details on what it is.
[31:39.210 --> 31:47.430]  Yeah, I mean, our friend Junce, one of our men on the ground, I have a note from him that says, Sony Pictures deserves a lot of the blame for not protecting this data better.
[31:47.590 --> 31:51.330]  There doesn't appear to be any additional protection at all on sensitive data stored on the network.
[31:51.490 --> 31:55.470]  Social security numbers kept in non-password protected spreadsheets all over the place for example.
[31:56.110 --> 32:11.850]  And yeah, I tend to agree that even for this amount of data to have been and it must have been stolen over a period of time because this is not an amount of data you download in one attack unless they're employees at Sony unless they're the president of Sony themselves and have real-time access to it.
[32:12.150 --> 32:15.450]  Yeah, it would take a long time to get that data off-site.
[32:15.710 --> 32:25.470]  There is a conspiracy theory that I don't totally believe but also isn't totally crazy that this is like a publicity stunt from Sony to get attention for their anti-North Korea movie.
[32:25.990 --> 32:33.530]  Well, I think the FBI might have a few words to say to them about that because they're taking it seriously and I don't think they'd ever be trusted again if this actually was a joke.
[32:33.530 --> 32:38.490]  I mean, I don't think that's really the case but also like, you know, if it turned out that was it, I can't say I would be shocked.
[32:38.490 --> 32:54.350]  I would subscribe though to the theory that it's a conspiracy that involves the federal government as well as Sony to just make things more of a clampdown against hackers and people that are, you know, whatever conspiracies you want to subscribe to about this,
[32:54.470 --> 33:05.390]  the sum total at the end of it is that tens of thousands of current employees and former employees and people they've just worked with, contractors, their personal data is now out there for anyone to get hold of and that can be a hassle.
[33:05.730 --> 33:06.150]  Absolutely.
[33:06.350 --> 33:06.650]  Absolutely.
[33:06.990 --> 33:12.610]  Maybe media companies need to go back to just sticking light up signs to bridges somewhere to do something that's a little less...
[33:12.610 --> 33:18.210]  When you work for a huge company, do they not have an obligation to keep your private information private?
[33:18.430 --> 33:23.650]  And I'm wondering do the Sony employees have any recourse here against the people that obviously did not do their job?
[33:23.770 --> 33:24.030]  I don't know.
[33:24.090 --> 33:30.010]  I've worked for very small companies that were still extremely, you know, competent at keeping my information private as compared to this.
[33:30.110 --> 33:37.570]  So, yeah, I would like to know if anyone at Sony ends up suffering any sort of penalties for how easily this apparently leaked out.
[33:38.470 --> 33:39.210]  All right.
[33:39.390 --> 33:47.410]  Hey, we're going to be contacting a special guest in just a couple of minutes and we're going to play an excerpt while we're doing that.
[33:48.350 --> 34:01.290]  Her name is Rachel Morrison and she is making a documentary film on one of our favorite people, the Dear Departed Joy Bubbles, phone freak extraordinaire of years ago.
[34:02.230 --> 34:05.370]  Guys, you want to talk about this a little bit while I make the phone call?
[34:06.730 --> 34:07.930]  I thought we had an excerpt.
[34:08.110 --> 34:09.550]  Well, okay, you want to do the excerpt first?
[34:09.590 --> 34:10.130]  I was going to...
[34:10.130 --> 34:11.450]  Okay, let's do the excerpt.
[34:11.510 --> 34:12.090]  Let's hear the excerpt.
[34:12.210 --> 34:12.950]  Let's hear the excerpt.
[34:13.030 --> 34:16.570]  I'll make the phone call during the excerpt, then we'll talk, then we'll have her on and yeah, that's nice.
[34:16.570 --> 34:18.210]  This is a very good plan.
[34:18.370 --> 34:19.810]  I'm glad we're making it live on the air.
[34:19.850 --> 34:26.370]  Well, okay, but the documentary was recently crowdfunded through Kickstarter and successfully, I might add.
[34:27.190 --> 34:28.750]  And the film is...
[34:28.750 --> 34:30.730]  Bernie, I believe the film is called Joy Bubbles, right?
[34:31.330 --> 34:31.970]  Yes, it is.
[34:32.090 --> 34:32.290]  Okay.
[34:33.130 --> 34:37.050]  So here's an excerpt from one of the promos for it.
[34:37.430 --> 34:39.210]  And we'll be back in just a moment.
[34:40.990 --> 34:41.690]  Hi there.
[34:41.690 --> 34:48.330]  I'm glad you called Stories and Stuff from here in Minneapolis, the land of cold weather and warm hearts.
[34:48.630 --> 34:50.310]  This is Joy Bubbles, your storyteller.
[34:50.450 --> 34:55.150]  I felt like his stories would be a mix of truth and imagination.
[35:01.350 --> 35:07.890]  What makes a story unique is that there are so many components of it and they're all very hard to believe.
[35:08.330 --> 35:11.350]  We had no idea that he had all this history.
[35:11.910 --> 35:14.830]  So, Ingressia's ability to whistle was really pretty legendary.
[35:15.250 --> 35:19.690]  He actually, in college, he had the nickname The Whistler for being able to make these free phone calls.
[35:19.830 --> 35:20.990]  He was world-renowned.
[35:21.170 --> 35:22.310]  He was the phone freak.
[35:22.450 --> 35:30.730]  If you dial a certain number and you tap the phone a certain way, all of a sudden, you'll be connected to, you know, some court where you're listening to people or doing things you shouldn't be doing.
[35:31.110 --> 35:33.610]  I mean, this was really strange, wild stuff.
[35:33.750 --> 35:39.590]  They were hacking into what was at the time the largest machine in the world, which was the telephone switching system.
[35:39.730 --> 35:44.450]  He regarded the phone as a world communication system that he was part of.
[35:44.530 --> 35:46.730]  It was his outer world is how he connected to people.
[35:46.910 --> 35:48.590]  You know, he's blind, he didn't have any friends.
[35:48.790 --> 35:56.970]  I think that blind people in general make much more use of the phone than sighted people because getting around is more difficult for us.
[35:57.170 --> 35:59.710]  The phone almost takes the place of a visit.
[35:59.710 --> 36:02.290]  The telephone was really sort of his constant friend and companion.
[36:02.530 --> 36:03.610]  His parents fought a lot.
[36:03.870 --> 36:06.830]  You know, the comfort of the dial tone was just a very nice thing to him.
[36:06.990 --> 36:08.250]  It was, you know, it was always there.
[36:08.390 --> 36:10.410]  It was a place that he could play around.
[36:10.710 --> 36:12.070]  It was never mad at him.
[36:12.130 --> 36:13.110]  It never fought with anybody.
[36:13.290 --> 36:19.650]  He got into a near-death experience where he felt what he called melding bubbles.
[36:19.910 --> 36:23.710]  He was so ecstatic that he never wanted to grow up.
[36:23.710 --> 36:30.010]  He started to shift more and more toward wanting to do the children things.
[36:30.030 --> 36:33.150]  Not things with children but the children things.
[36:34.630 --> 36:36.810]  Hi, this is Joy Bubbles in Minneapolis.
[36:37.170 --> 36:39.310]  He threw his arms up in the air and he said, Joy Bubbles.
[36:39.870 --> 36:42.110]  And that's when it all started.
[36:42.270 --> 36:43.830]  The name, obviously, Joy Bubbles.
[36:44.110 --> 36:50.290]  I didn't really inquire but I think I found out kind of indirectly that no, it actually was his name.
[36:50.410 --> 37:00.550]  The whole aura of Joy Bubbles was just this kind of innocence and it was hard to digest coming off a 49-year-old blind man.
[37:01.670 --> 37:07.270]  It was just bizarre to hear him talk about his days as a phone freak as a 5-year-old.
[37:07.670 --> 37:16.190]  The whole story made so much more sense when you knew all of it.
[37:16.830 --> 37:18.950]  Next week, there'll be another story.
[37:19.630 --> 37:24.550]  Stay strong and take care of each other and find some time to play.
[37:26.010 --> 37:26.990]  Bye for now.
[37:29.710 --> 37:33.590]  And that is an excerpt from the upcoming documentary, Joy Bubbles.
[37:33.850 --> 37:37.670]  Joining us now is the maker of that film, Rachel Morrison.
[37:37.750 --> 37:38.290]  Rachel, welcome.
[37:39.390 --> 37:40.790]  Hi, thanks for having me.
[37:41.030 --> 37:46.630]  So, what gave you the idea to do a documentary about this famous phone freak?
[37:48.070 --> 37:56.670]  I found out about Joy Bubbles, unfortunately, when he passed away, which was back in August of 2007.
[37:57.450 --> 38:04.830]  The New York Times ran an obituary about him, and that's where I stumbled upon his story.
[38:05.050 --> 38:06.490]  So, I read that article.
[38:06.810 --> 38:09.250]  I remember that was a really well-written obituary.
[38:09.410 --> 38:10.910]  That definitely did him credit.
[38:11.430 --> 38:12.630]  Yeah, it's amazing.
[38:12.630 --> 38:21.770]  It was written by Douglas Martin for the New York Times, and he did an incredible job of summing up the complexity of his entire life story.
[38:23.050 --> 38:27.410]  And I was just immediately drawn to the story.
[38:27.730 --> 38:32.450]  So, I did a little project back in 2010.
[38:32.450 --> 38:40.170]  It was an audio piece where I interviewed some people who knew Joy Bubbles and put that up on a telephone line that you could call.
[38:41.570 --> 38:53.350]  and then after that, I just kept thinking about him and, you know, did quite a bit of research about him and I was disappointed to find...
[38:54.130 --> 38:57.530]  I was disappointed that there wasn't more about him.
[38:57.710 --> 39:11.870]  Sort of his whole life story, his days as a phone freak and then also his days later on where he became Joy Bubbles and legally changed his name to Joy Bubbles and declared himself the age of five forever.
[39:12.230 --> 39:21.670]  So, yeah, it all kind of developed over the course of a couple years and in 2011 I started to seriously make the film which will be feature-length.
[39:21.930 --> 39:24.590]  Now, is there a lot of footage of Joy Bubbles?
[39:25.870 --> 39:36.310]  There's a decent amount of footage and unfortunately I wasn't able to share too much of that in the little trailer that I have up online right now just because of you know, licensing.
[39:36.830 --> 39:40.010]  But, yeah, that will be in the film.
[39:40.190 --> 39:55.330]  I've dug up quite a bit and that's been really exciting because, you know, when I initially started I wasn't sure how much was out there but slowly I've been finding more and more things.
[39:55.730 --> 39:59.450]  Now, you launched a Kickstarter to help make this thing possible.
[39:59.730 --> 40:01.170]  Were you happy with the response?
[40:02.070 --> 40:03.770]  Yeah, I was really excited.
[40:04.150 --> 40:08.050]  We set out to raise $15,555.
[40:08.310 --> 40:11.630]  I tried to have as many fives as possible.
[40:11.930 --> 40:13.890]  How can you make a film for $15,000?
[40:13.910 --> 40:15.410]  That's a really low number.
[40:16.470 --> 40:22.050]  Yeah, well this is going to help us kind of launch you know, into post-production.
[40:23.390 --> 40:36.330]  You know, the film will cost more than that but this is going to help us you know, start to edit the film and get some things ready for grants and further funding.
[40:36.530 --> 40:37.030]  I see, okay.
[40:38.330 --> 40:45.250]  Wow, so, and I imagine you've gotten a good response from the hacker community in general because this is one of the icons.
[40:45.530 --> 40:56.930]  High-rise Joe, Joe Ingressia, the blind guy who lived in Minneapolis that could basically whistle all kinds of tones and do almost anything and recognize all sorts of sounds over the phone network.
[40:57.530 --> 40:59.550]  We can't just forget about somebody like this.
[40:59.690 --> 41:01.210]  He's somebody very inspiring.
[41:02.570 --> 41:11.730]  Yeah, he's incredibly inspiring for many different reasons and a lot of people in the hacker community have reached out to me.
[41:11.850 --> 41:23.550]  A lot of people, you know, he spoke to so many people over the phone during his life and a lot of those people have reached out to me and shared stories and I mean, it's just amazing how many people he touched.
[41:23.910 --> 41:40.090]  You know, people who had one phone conversation with him who still remember that conversation and, you know, some of those people have written me emails and we've talked about him and they still remember him and he was really an amazing person.
[41:40.210 --> 41:49.990]  So I'm excited to be making this film so that people can learn more about him and remember him and celebrate his amazing life.
[41:49.990 --> 42:01.870]  Now, Joy Bubbles in particular but also sort of the history of phone freaking in general it's up till recently it's been mostly a mystery I think to most people who, even those who would be interested in it.
[42:01.970 --> 42:10.850]  We've got works like the book Exploding the Phone by our friend Phil Lapsley who I understand also helped you out on some level with this film but what was it like for you?
[42:10.970 --> 42:18.890]  Like, were you interested at all in the sort of freaking and hacking world before doing this and learning about it through Joy Bubbles?
[42:19.650 --> 42:46.410]  Yeah, it's interesting I did not know about the phone freak so that was something that I learned when I read the obituary about him you know, of course I knew that people were hacking computers but I didn't know that people hacked into the telephone So your introduction to the world of phone freaks was through Joy Bubbles obituary in the New York Times Yeah Wow That was a good obituary I know So,
[42:46.670 --> 43:13.370]  I mean that blew my mind of course people were hacking the telephone I mean it made complete sense when I found out but no, that wasn't something that I knew beforehand so this has all been you know new to me just learning that history and yeah Phil Lapsley who wrote Exploding the Phone which is an amazing book and he's just been an amazing resource in terms of you know sharing his knowledge
[43:13.370 --> 43:40.190]  through the book and we interviewed him for the film as well I would imagine he'd be a great person to talk to or make a film about himself Go ahead Go ahead Bernie I'd say Phil was the one who told me about Rachel's project of course I worked with Phil to get him to put together some Hope talks at the Hope Conference which some of which those talks We've covered Joy Bubbles activities in the
[43:40.190 --> 43:41.070]  history of phone-freaking.
[43:41.390 --> 43:43.430]  So this is an interesting community.
[43:44.310 --> 43:46.010]  I've met a lot of interesting people over the years.
[43:46.090 --> 43:47.530]  I've talked with Joy Bubbles a couple of times.
[43:47.650 --> 43:51.930]  I know you interviewed them on Off the Hook years ago, which was one of the most amazing interviews.
[43:52.530 --> 43:54.270]  You've heard that interview, haven't you, Rachel?
[43:55.270 --> 43:57.930]  Yeah, actually, I started listening to it again today.
[43:58.450 --> 43:58.950]  It's... yeah.
[43:59.230 --> 44:02.850]  For those who would like to hear it, we just looked it up November 20th, 1991.
[44:03.130 --> 44:06.390]  Look at that edition of Off the Hook, and you'll hear our interview with Joy Bubbles.
[44:07.050 --> 44:12.350]  Yeah, and when you did that interview, it wasn't too long after he legally changed his name.
[44:12.350 --> 44:14.290]  He had sort of just become Joy Bubbles.
[44:15.530 --> 44:17.390]  Wow, so maybe we were the first then.
[44:17.750 --> 44:18.170]  That's something...
[44:18.170 --> 44:19.970]  Do you want to tell us something about that whole thing?
[44:19.990 --> 44:29.570]  Because I guess that's a question that's asked a lot amongst people who aren't familiar with this, is why did he call himself Joy Bubbles and not High Rise Joe and everything behind that?
[44:30.530 --> 44:33.190]  Yeah, well, he had a few nicknames throughout his life.
[44:33.190 --> 44:46.470]  He was dubbed the whistler back in the late 1960s when he first got in trouble for hacking into the telephone because he was able to whistle 2,600 hertz.
[44:48.090 --> 44:55.350]  Then, in the 70s, he was known as High Rise Joe because he enjoyed living in high-rise apartments.
[44:55.350 --> 45:00.990]  It was always his dream to be able to live alone and be in a high-rise.
[45:00.990 --> 45:03.990]  So he sort of gave himself that nickname.
[45:04.350 --> 45:31.890]  And then, I think it's interesting actually to follow along with the history of the telephone when you sort of follow his life story, in the 80s, when I think he became a little bit less interested in the telephone because he could do less with it, he decided that he wanted to be five years old forever.
[45:32.830 --> 45:39.530]  And this was brought about through a memory that he had of being sexually abused as a child.
[45:40.090 --> 45:48.150]  And so he wanted to reclaim his childhood and decided he would just go back to being five years old.
[45:50.870 --> 46:01.130]  And then, he attended, in either the late 80s or early 90s, a seminar at Carleton College, sort of an uplifting seminar.
[46:02.430 --> 46:16.590]  And he was asked, along with other audience members in this group, to jump up and sort of yell the first word that comes out of your mouth.
[46:16.590 --> 46:19.870]  And he just, he jumped up and he said, Joy Bubbles.
[46:22.010 --> 46:23.950]  And it just felt really good.
[46:23.950 --> 46:30.370]  So he decided in 1991 that he was actually going to legally change his name to Joy Bubbles.
[46:30.490 --> 46:31.870]  That's an awesome way to get a name.
[46:31.870 --> 46:32.730]  I'll say that.
[46:33.470 --> 46:33.950]  Yeah.
[46:35.110 --> 46:36.610]  Yeah, so it's interesting.
[46:37.150 --> 46:54.310]  It's interesting, I think, that as the phone, you know, switching became digital as opposed to analog, which is the system that he was sort of more interested in, in terms of the noises and his ability to hack into it.
[46:54.530 --> 47:03.710]  As that changed, he kind of looked inside himself and sort of decided to change his identity.
[47:04.950 --> 47:05.510]  Interesting.
[47:05.750 --> 47:07.950]  And so that alone is a fascinating story.
[47:07.950 --> 47:11.670]  So your film will be chock full of all sorts of anecdotes and history.
[47:12.030 --> 47:13.670]  So I'm really looking forward to seeing it.
[47:13.750 --> 47:15.590]  Do you have a projected date of release?
[47:16.790 --> 47:20.930]  Yeah, we're hoping to finish it by mid-2015.
[47:21.030 --> 47:22.530]  So hopefully by next summer.
[47:22.870 --> 47:26.170]  And we'll be submitting to film festivals and just kind of going from there.
[47:26.430 --> 47:33.490]  So I'm hoping people will be able to see it, you know, end of 2015, early 2016.
[47:33.490 --> 47:37.910]  Well, I hope you're able to show it whenever the next HOPE conference is, probably in 2016.
[47:38.530 --> 47:39.650]  Yeah, I would love to.
[47:39.890 --> 47:50.810]  Yeah, it's great to see so many people making films, from Laura Poitras and Jason Scott and all these people who are just involved in documenting what's going on, these fascinating times that we live in.
[47:52.270 --> 48:03.790]  It's essential, it's vital to preserve that and to present that to people that, like yourself, one day will be awoken to this magical world, just by happening upon some bit of media.
[48:04.810 --> 48:04.990]  Yeah.
[48:06.010 --> 48:10.610]  All right, Rachel, anything, any websites you want to give out or any kind of information for our listeners?
[48:11.470 --> 48:11.890]  Sure.
[48:11.890 --> 48:23.330]  If you want to find out more about the film, our website is www.joybubblesthemovie.com and you can find out, you know, about our Facebook and Twitter and everything from there.
[48:23.810 --> 48:24.090]  Excellent.
[48:24.390 --> 48:35.650]  Rachel, I just want to say, you know, on behalf of, I'm sure, many, many other people who would like to say this, you know, Joy Bubbles has always been sort of one of those unsung heroes that a very small amount of people, relatively speaking, have known anything about.
[48:35.910 --> 48:45.970]  And to have him, to have his story told like this and to have his legacy sort of preserved for more people to keep learning about and keep being inspired by, I think is a wonderful thing.
[48:46.010 --> 48:49.830]  And I want to thank you for doing what you're doing to preserve that.
[48:50.770 --> 48:51.430]  Thank you.
[48:51.630 --> 48:52.930]  Thank you for having me on the show today.
[48:53.130 --> 48:54.130]  All right, best of luck to you.
[48:54.130 --> 48:56.950]  And we'll be looking out for that film and following your progress.
[48:57.530 --> 49:02.510]  So Rachel Morrison, who is making a documentary on Joy Bubbles.
[49:03.030 --> 49:05.450]  And wow, that's going to be something.
[49:05.610 --> 49:16.230]  I'm looking forward to seeing that because he definitely was a very, very interesting person, very knowledgeable, very well-spoken and just led an interesting life and a very interesting culture.
[49:16.790 --> 49:19.250]  Our phone number is 212-209-2900.
[49:19.250 --> 49:20.890]  We have a little bit of time left.
[49:20.890 --> 49:24.970]  So I figured, you know, some of the things that we're talking about, maybe our listeners have some opinions on.
[49:25.590 --> 49:26.570]  And we'd like to hear from you.
[49:26.670 --> 49:28.310]  212-209-2900.
[49:28.470 --> 49:32.830]  Again, the phone is kind of psychotic, so we're not sure who will get on and who won't.
[49:32.930 --> 49:34.070]  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
[49:34.150 --> 49:35.630]  But that's part of the fun, isn't it?
[49:37.130 --> 49:40.270]  While we're waiting for the phone to ring, any comments on the film?
[49:41.030 --> 49:42.730]  Well, I'm looking forward to it.
[49:42.890 --> 49:44.970]  I only spoke to Joy Bubbles once.
[49:44.970 --> 49:46.990]  It was on a teleconference about 100 years ago.
[49:47.150 --> 49:56.690]  But I remember him just being really, really nice and sweet and accommodating, despite the fact that a bunch of strange kids that he didn't know were all shouting different questions at him, at their heroes.
[49:56.870 --> 50:00.870]  So yeah, he deserves to, I think, keep having his story told.
[50:01.230 --> 50:04.970]  Okay, there is a phone call coming in on one of the weird lines.
[50:05.070 --> 50:06.410]  So let's see if that actually works.
[50:06.990 --> 50:09.450]  Oh, it looks like it works, except it's not there anymore.
[50:09.450 --> 50:11.530]  Okay, let's try that again.
[50:11.630 --> 50:14.850]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[50:15.650 --> 50:18.130]  Please don't hang up if we don't answer right away.
[50:18.270 --> 50:20.390]  And if you get hung up on, call us back.
[50:20.670 --> 50:22.350]  212-209-2900.
[50:23.210 --> 50:23.650]  Emmanuel?
[50:23.790 --> 50:24.330]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[50:25.270 --> 50:31.570]  I first heard about Joy Bubbles when I was playing around with phones in the 1970s.
[50:31.690 --> 50:38.270]  I knew somebody who worked for the local phone company, which was a step-by-step switch at the time in rural Pennsylvania.
[50:38.270 --> 50:45.150]  And I heard this legend about this blind phone freak kid who could whistle and manipulate switching systems.
[50:45.170 --> 50:46.610]  And I was fascinated by that.
[50:46.710 --> 50:50.810]  And I ended up actually talking with Joy Bubbles about maybe 20 years ago on the phone.
[50:50.910 --> 50:53.250]  Just one conversation, but it was very memorable.
[50:53.450 --> 51:01.210]  And I'm really looking forward to seeing this film, and I'm glad that someone is going to document and memorialize his life in film.
[51:01.390 --> 51:02.190]  It's really exciting.
[51:02.430 --> 51:03.430]  All right, let's take a phone call.
[51:05.310 --> 51:06.190]  And good evening.
[51:06.470 --> 51:07.090]  You're on off the hook.
[51:08.490 --> 51:09.030]  Speak up.
[51:09.550 --> 51:10.250]  Oh, off the hook?
[51:10.470 --> 51:11.010]  Yes, go ahead.
[51:12.710 --> 51:13.530]  Whoops, I got it all.
[51:13.570 --> 51:13.950]  I'm sorry.
[51:15.110 --> 51:15.430]  What?
[51:17.490 --> 51:18.130]  What did he say?
[51:18.610 --> 51:19.670]  I gotta go.
[51:20.110 --> 51:20.450]  Got it.
[51:20.510 --> 51:20.750]  Okay.
[51:20.970 --> 51:21.850]  Well, that's fascinating.
[51:22.010 --> 51:22.510]  Thanks for calling us.
[51:22.510 --> 51:22.830]  Good evening.
[51:22.950 --> 51:23.610]  You're on off the hook.
[51:24.530 --> 51:25.410]  Hi, good evening.
[51:25.410 --> 51:26.130]  This is Allison.
[51:26.530 --> 51:26.970]  Hi, Allison.
[51:27.050 --> 51:27.770]  Hope you can stick around.
[51:28.070 --> 51:28.270]  Love your show.
[51:28.430 --> 51:28.770]  Good.
[51:29.070 --> 51:30.010]  Thanks for taking my call.
[51:30.170 --> 51:33.810]  I just wanted to know where the name Phone Freaking came from.
[51:33.810 --> 51:35.310]  Why is it called Phone Freaking?
[51:35.510 --> 51:37.370]  And it's my first time ever hearing about it.
[51:37.550 --> 51:38.010]  Oh, really?
[51:38.170 --> 51:38.830]  Wow, interesting.
[51:39.310 --> 51:40.490]  Well, that's a good question.
[51:41.050 --> 51:46.230]  I would just say it just seems like a good phrase for somebody that's into phones.
[51:46.370 --> 51:48.330]  Freaking, by the way, is spelled with a P-H.
[51:49.130 --> 51:51.310]  So that's sort of how the name came about.
[51:51.310 --> 51:54.890]  If there's a more formal way that that was introduced, I am not aware of it.
[51:55.870 --> 52:01.910]  But it's a form of hacking because it's the same basic sense of adventure, exploration, and all that.
[52:01.990 --> 52:08.570]  But it involves the phone network, what used to be the phone network, the bell system back in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
[52:08.710 --> 52:19.250]  But it's expanded since then to include everything from Skype to all sorts of voiceover IP and long-distance companies and local telephony and things like that.
[52:19.950 --> 52:20.470]  Emmanuel?
[52:20.690 --> 52:21.030]  Yes, Bernie?
[52:21.310 --> 52:28.430]  I think the term may have originated from, you know, back in the 60s, there were, like, all these freaks running around.
[52:28.570 --> 52:29.530]  There were Jesus freaks.
[52:29.650 --> 52:31.930]  There were these freaks and those freaks.
[52:32.050 --> 52:34.090]  And I think there were phone freaks.
[52:34.110 --> 52:38.370]  And I think some clever person in the phone freak community decided to spell freaks with a P-H.
[52:38.670 --> 52:50.310]  And I think that may have been documented early on in an issue of Tap Magazine, which was a newsletter that came out, and I think in the early 70s, about phone freaking.
[52:50.310 --> 52:57.090]  Well, you've given us something to look into, and maybe we should figure out where the name actually came from, who started that.
[52:57.790 --> 52:59.170]  But thanks for your call.
[52:59.610 --> 53:00.150]  Thanks for your call.
[53:00.150 --> 53:00.230]  Love you, Joe.
[53:00.450 --> 53:00.830]  Take care.
[53:01.750 --> 53:02.930]  212-209-29...
[53:02.930 --> 53:04.970]  We just had five calls, and they all went away at the same time.
[53:05.190 --> 53:06.830]  212-209-2900.
[53:07.050 --> 53:11.850]  Wherever all you folks went, please come back and talk to us.
[53:11.850 --> 53:12.990]  Here's one now.
[53:13.650 --> 53:14.390]  And good evening.
[53:14.570 --> 53:15.230]  You're on Off the Hook.
[53:16.030 --> 53:16.210]  Yes.
[53:16.310 --> 53:17.010]  How you doing, fellas?
[53:17.750 --> 53:26.270]  This is Jackson from Brooklyn, and I wanted to know about your impression of the recent Swedish raid that they did on Pirate Bays.
[53:26.370 --> 53:27.750]  It's the end of Pirate Bay, as y'all know it.
[53:28.030 --> 53:28.210]  Yeah.
[53:28.310 --> 53:29.450]  Well, this happened a few days ago, actually.
[53:29.570 --> 53:33.110]  Pirate Bay was apparently shut down by the Swedish police.
[53:33.110 --> 53:39.390]  I heard that they had moved to a Costa Rican site, PirateBay.cr, but maybe that's outdated information now?
[53:39.550 --> 53:46.870]  No, the .cr actually seemed to be a cached version of the site, which presented what the site looked like, but if you tried to use it, it wouldn't get you anywhere.
[53:47.170 --> 53:51.930]  But since that time, there have been a lot of little sites that have popped up, PirateBay.this, PirateBay.that.
[53:52.230 --> 53:53.610]  None of them have been the Pirate Bay.
[53:53.690 --> 53:55.390]  A lot of them have been other people.
[53:55.810 --> 53:58.970]  One was a site that was demanding you pay them to access torrents.
[53:59.030 --> 54:00.870]  Something else was selling T-shirts or something.
[54:01.050 --> 54:06.730]  So there are a lot of sort of fake sites that have sprung up to capitalize on the mystery of what's going on with the Pirate Bay.
[54:06.990 --> 54:14.550]  But I think until you hear it from a dependable source, I would not consider any of them worth looking for if you were looking for the Pirate Bay.
[54:14.550 --> 54:26.470]  Well, it sounds to me like, okay, they've attacked the name, they've attacked the original Pirate Bay site, so whatever comes up and claims to be the Pirate Bay is simply not going to be that, and something else will come along that people will use instead.
[54:26.850 --> 54:36.510]  I mean, I don't know what's going to happen, obviously, more than anyone, but the Pirate Bay, I mean, the thing that they've done better than anyone is this sort of resilience where they've been shut down before and come back.
[54:36.710 --> 54:38.950]  Some of their founders are in jail and they come back.
[54:39.350 --> 54:42.370]  And I don't know, but I wouldn't count them out yet.
[54:42.610 --> 54:44.370]  It's kind of like the hacker community in general.
[54:44.690 --> 54:51.150]  You know, if people get shut down, a bunch more spring up in their place and people don't tend to lose their spirit.
[54:51.350 --> 54:53.570]  Also, not everyone's into seeing the Pirate Bay come back.
[54:53.570 --> 55:09.270]  Peter Sund, who is one of the co-founders, posted a lengthy writing on his blog where he was saying the project has run its course, it's done what they set out to do, and it had devolved to something that he was no longer proud of, and possibly it's time to move on to whatever the next thing is going to be.
[55:09.450 --> 55:10.370]  I can understand that.
[55:10.430 --> 55:15.990]  That's a valid point of view, and it should be considered with a lot of weight because he is one of the founders of it.
[55:16.350 --> 55:16.710]  Emmanuel?
[55:16.830 --> 55:17.310]  Yeah, go ahead, Bernie.
[55:18.170 --> 55:27.010]  Do you think that this raid on the Pirate Bay, did it not happen shortly after the big Sony hack, and do you think they might be related?
[55:27.130 --> 55:31.550]  Do you think Sony may have said, go get them, and maybe they're responsible?
[55:32.310 --> 55:34.170]  Well, this is sort of what we were talking about.
[55:34.170 --> 55:41.410]  Maybe we're being set up for all kinds of preemptive actions based on this one horrible mega hack that took place.
[55:41.490 --> 55:49.470]  So, yeah, you know, it's kind of like, I hate to say this, the 9-11 of hacking was what happened to Sony.
[55:49.810 --> 55:52.670]  And now we've got to start the torture up.
[55:53.030 --> 55:54.350]  So, I don't know.
[55:54.490 --> 55:56.610]  That's the analogy that I can draw at this point.
[55:56.730 --> 55:59.130]  And I'm going to ignore that metaphor because it's terrible.
[55:59.350 --> 55:59.730]  It is.
[56:00.010 --> 56:04.150]  But Sony has been saying for many, many years, hey, shut the Pirate Bay down.
[56:04.550 --> 56:09.630]  So, I don't think they can get that quick action out of the Swedish police.
[56:10.570 --> 56:12.770]  So, I don't think it's at least directly connected.
[56:12.770 --> 56:14.230]  But maybe I'll be proven wrong.
[56:14.290 --> 56:15.290]  Well, maybe it was planned.
[56:15.290 --> 56:17.630]  Maybe they are planning the Sony attack for a year.
[56:17.770 --> 56:19.190]  And they say, okay, now the Sony attack happened.
[56:19.310 --> 56:20.430]  We're going to move against Pirate Bay.
[56:20.510 --> 56:22.810]  I'm just saying, all the conspiracy theories we're talking about.
[56:23.030 --> 56:23.590]  Why not?
[56:23.730 --> 56:24.850]  Yeah, I mean, speaking of 9-11.
[56:25.190 --> 56:25.390]  Yeah.
[56:26.510 --> 56:27.210]  Well, okay.
[56:28.010 --> 56:30.310]  OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[56:30.470 --> 56:32.810]  Let's try and get one more call in.
[56:32.930 --> 56:33.270]  Good evening.
[56:33.390 --> 56:34.090]  You're on off the hook.
[56:35.530 --> 56:36.050]  Go ahead.
[56:36.090 --> 56:36.810]  You're the last call.
[56:59.050 --> 57:03.050]  Are you talking about it in a particular subject matter, or just in general?
[57:04.950 --> 57:20.570]  Yeah, just a subject matter, because I'm interested in acquiring information on how to get in touch with the makers of that product, of the visually impaired.
[57:21.950 --> 57:25.950]  Okay, it sounds like a general question about access for the disabled.
[57:26.150 --> 57:26.670]  Is that...
[57:26.670 --> 57:29.530]  Yeah, I mean, I don't have specific advice, but I would contact...
[57:29.530 --> 57:30.610]  There's a number of groups.
[57:31.130 --> 57:35.590]  Lighthouse for the Blind is one of them, who work to provide this sort of technology.
[57:35.850 --> 57:37.410]  And I would get in touch with them.
[57:37.610 --> 57:37.810]  Yeah.
[57:38.090 --> 57:43.230]  And, well, if we get any more information, we'll certainly pass that on as well.
[57:43.310 --> 57:45.190]  But thanks for that call, and thanks for listening.
[57:45.390 --> 57:47.590]  And any final words, guys, before we head out?
[57:48.410 --> 57:48.690]  No?
[57:48.690 --> 57:49.470]  Joy Bubbles.
[57:49.650 --> 57:52.670]  Yes, Joy Bubbles is a good word to end on, I think, and we look forward to that film.
[57:53.150 --> 57:57.430]  If you want to write to us here at OffTheHook, OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[57:57.870 --> 58:03.150]  And we'll be back next week with another fun show, all about the hacker community and various other things.
[58:03.350 --> 58:06.470]  Again, hope to see people at CCC in Germany.
[58:06.650 --> 58:12.790]  And if anybody over in that part of the world would like some 2600 people to drop by, send us email as well.
[58:12.890 --> 58:15.850]  And maybe we'll figure out a way to get to your neck of the woods as well.
[58:15.850 --> 58:22.290]  Office blocks, corner shops, traffic jams on every street.
[58:22.530 --> 58:25.750]  The same old rush around.
[58:27.950 --> 58:30.410]  Obsolete, I'm a freak.
[58:30.630 --> 58:33.190]  In a shower, Brighton Beach.
[58:33.370 --> 58:36.290]  As the snow comes down.
[58:39.550 --> 58:40.710]  We're
[58:49.150 --> 58:54.330]  waiting for changes, projected, attempted.
[58:55.190 --> 59:00.230]  We're waiting for changes, the light's green, for today's red.
[59:00.650 --> 59:08.850]  Laundry stops by the lock, on a Sunday afternoon, with all that fuss.
[59:21.230 --> 59:33.170]  We're waiting for changes, the light's green, for today's red.
[59:33.450 --> 59:43.450]  We're waiting for changes, the light's green, for today's red.
[01:00:05.780 --> 01:00:22.140]  We're waiting for changes, projected, attempted.
[01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:24.620]  We're fighting for changes.
[01:00:24.620 --> 01:00:25.020]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:27.180 --> 01:00:30.500]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:33.260]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:33.720 --> 01:00:35.620]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:35.620 --> 01:00:35.880]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:36.120 --> 01:00:38.640]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:39.300 --> 01:00:41.480]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:41.580 --> 01:00:44.200]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:47.020]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:47.560 --> 01:00:47.920]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:49.320]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:49.780]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:51.520 --> 01:00:52.440]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:52.880]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:53.320]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:53.920]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:55.000]  We're waiting for changes.
[01:00:55.000 --> 01:01:01.360]  The prosecutor and working with the police, I'd work... Hey, I saw an elected official working every day with them.
[01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:03.360]  I'd do the same thing, probably.