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[00:42.580 --> 00:45.560]  And it's time for another exciting edition of Off the Hook.
[00:51.640 --> 01:13.470]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a cough We couldn't get much worse But if they could, they would One did we bomb But the best is back the worst I hope that's understood One did we bomb
[01:29.690 --> 01:31.270]  A very good evening to you all.
[01:31.710 --> 01:32.810]  The program is Off the Hook.
[01:32.890 --> 01:33.130]  Rob T.
[01:33.230 --> 01:34.010]  Firefly here with you.
[01:34.150 --> 01:35.270]  I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
[01:35.450 --> 01:36.110]  Good evening.
[01:36.430 --> 01:37.310]  By Alex.
[01:37.670 --> 01:38.030]  Evening.
[01:39.130 --> 01:41.770]  And on the phone, we should have a manual.
[01:41.930 --> 01:42.170]  You there?
[01:43.730 --> 01:45.370]  Yes, it's Manuel here.
[01:45.370 --> 01:46.530]  Joined by Kyle.
[01:46.870 --> 01:49.530]  We're over here in Dresden, Germany.
[01:50.410 --> 01:51.290]  Dresden, Germany.
[01:51.610 --> 01:51.910]  Hello.
[01:52.330 --> 01:53.690]  And what are you guys doing out there?
[01:55.030 --> 02:01.710]  Well, we're continuing from the Chaos Communication Congress, which ended just over a week ago.
[02:01.710 --> 02:06.110]  The last time we talked to you was New Year's Eve in Hamburg.
[02:06.450 --> 02:12.770]  And since then, we've been in Magdeburg, we've been in Leipzig, and today we arrived in Dresden.
[02:12.770 --> 02:20.670]  And it's interesting because Dresden has been the site of some rather disturbing nationalist rallies recently.
[02:20.670 --> 02:28.870]  There's an organization known as FIGITA, I believe is how you pronounce it.
[02:29.390 --> 02:35.810]  It's basically an organization that is anti-immigration.
[02:36.230 --> 02:42.250]  It started with about 350 people in October, and last week they had a rally with 18,000 people.
[02:42.250 --> 02:55.850]  So we arrived with a bit of trepidation coming into this place because, well, you know, we're familiar with that kind of anti-immigrant sentiment back in the States in various arenas.
[02:56.350 --> 03:04.610]  And in this particular case, it's just something that we felt could be a very disturbing thing to witness.
[03:04.610 --> 03:12.410]  And then, of course, the events that unfolded in Paris today really threw us for a loop.
[03:12.530 --> 03:15.890]  And I'm sure I can say the same for those back in New York.
[03:16.770 --> 03:36.190]  And we've been kind of just reeling from that over the last few hours because as people that are on the radio, as journalists, as people know, lots of comrades in the media in one sort or another, this is something that hits really close to home.
[03:36.190 --> 03:50.130]  When there's a massacre like this aimed at journalists, words cannot describe the feelings of anger, of just motivation to fight back in one way or another.
[03:50.130 --> 03:53.130]  And I think we're seeing that all around the world right now.
[03:54.190 --> 04:06.410]  And being here in this particular city at this particular time, where there hasn't been any kind of a reaction that I can see at this point, any kind of ugly reaction, that, of course, may change.
[04:06.590 --> 04:11.410]  But being here at this particular time, I think, is really kind of surreal.
[04:12.390 --> 04:14.650]  We just don't know what's going to happen next.
[04:15.770 --> 04:21.490]  Yeah, it's definitely been all over the news here and, of course, in other places.
[04:21.870 --> 04:26.990]  Has the story been getting any airtime out there?
[04:28.830 --> 04:40.050]  Yeah, I think several channels have been pretty much in nonstop kind of cycling of the cell phone video.
[04:40.050 --> 04:48.490]  I think everyone has seen and just basically reiterating, going over the facts and trying to cover any new developments.
[04:50.230 --> 04:52.870]  And, yeah, definitely reeling is a word.
[04:52.870 --> 05:01.830]  I think also just sort of kind of riveted, really stuck in front of stuff, trying to hear the story.
[05:01.830 --> 05:10.450]  And almost even the repetition has been kind of, as he said, very surreal.
[05:10.790 --> 05:22.690]  And mostly I just think a lot of people have taken pause and, I don't know, and considered where, what direction this is going to go.
[05:22.690 --> 05:26.150]  I mean, what could this mean for the future?
[05:26.490 --> 05:36.370]  And it kind of makes you look at some of the work you've done and, you know, in my case, the kind of pursuits I've endeavored in.
[05:36.530 --> 05:47.570]  And I think, you know, a lot of people are committed to telling stories and communicating are really thinking about this on a deep level.
[05:47.570 --> 05:55.810]  I think what really hits us, though, is that as hackers, as hacker journalists, we see this on two levels.
[05:55.950 --> 06:00.390]  Hackers are people that stand up to authority, that question.
[06:00.690 --> 06:09.910]  And in this particular case, what the journalists, Charlie Hebdo, were doing was basically standing up to intimidation.
[06:10.330 --> 06:17.390]  We're basically saying, yeah, you know, you're threatening us, but we're going to do this anyway, and we're going to do this to prove a point.
[06:17.930 --> 06:32.690]  And I see that, you know, in people like Edward Snowden, people like Chelsea Manning, people like Julian Assange, people who stand up to really, really, really powerful entities and are willing to sacrifice a good part of their lives for that.
[06:32.690 --> 06:40.770]  The same spirit, the same spirit that any good journalist would have, somebody who would stand up to any kind of intimidation tactic.
[06:40.770 --> 06:50.470]  And I just hope that, if nothing else, this brings that spirit back out in many of us that really need to be speaking up.
[06:50.610 --> 06:59.570]  I think if more people had challenged the absurdity of being told that, hey, you can't have a cartoon that ridicules a particular religious figure, of course you can.
[06:59.670 --> 07:01.470]  You can ridicule anybody you want.
[07:01.470 --> 07:06.690]  This is insane to live by these rules and to be intimidated like this.
[07:06.850 --> 07:15.990]  And if a thousand newspapers tomorrow print pictures and cartoons and whatever they want, ridiculing whoever they want, I think we'd be in a safer world.
[07:16.150 --> 07:20.690]  If we bow to fear, though, more things like this will happen.
[07:20.850 --> 07:23.130]  And, you know, I just hope we remember that.
[07:23.330 --> 07:24.790]  It's a hard lesson to learn.
[07:25.490 --> 07:28.430]  Emmanuel, I completely agree with you.
[07:28.550 --> 07:42.310]  And I think, you know, this attack is just so dispiriting in so many ways because it strikes at something that has been a powerful form of political discourse since the time of really...
[07:42.310 --> 07:43.570]  It goes back to the ancient Greeks.
[07:43.570 --> 07:44.730]  I'm talking about satire.
[07:44.850 --> 07:46.270]  We see it in The Onion.
[07:46.410 --> 07:47.450]  We see it on The Daily Show.
[07:47.610 --> 07:50.530]  We see it in, you know, for literally 2,300 years.
[07:50.530 --> 07:51.150]  It's been...
[07:51.150 --> 07:54.250]  This is ingrained in the history of the United States.
[07:54.250 --> 07:56.030]  And the history of France, especially.
[07:57.410 --> 08:08.850]  And it's a very, I think, there's obvious parallels here, I think, to the satire of the interview and the Sony breach and people trying to snuff out satire all around the globe.
[08:09.010 --> 08:19.110]  But I think that big companies, if we go back, and I've been thinking about this for the last couple of hours, remember back when Bell Atlantic and 9X merged and they made Verizon?
[08:19.590 --> 08:27.450]  Verizon and Verizon tried to stifle criticism on the internet by registering, what was it, 724 domain names that could be used to criticize them.
[08:27.810 --> 08:33.410]  Remember how they registered verizonsucks.com and that, in turn, sparked us to register.
[08:33.590 --> 08:37.150]  Verizon should spend more time fixing its networks and less money on lawyers.com.
[08:39.110 --> 08:41.190]  Actually, Alex, let me just correct you there.
[08:41.270 --> 08:43.110]  We registered Verizon really sucks.
[08:43.310 --> 08:45.590]  Yeah, Verizon really sucks first.
[08:45.750 --> 08:48.630]  Plus, there was verizonsuppoop.com, which then redirected to Verizon.
[08:48.830 --> 08:54.770]  Should spend more time fixing its networks, less money on lawyers.com, which I believe used all of the characters in a domain name.
[08:54.870 --> 09:02.850]  But corporations, I think, have really evolved since then and realized that trying to stifle out dissent is a bad play.
[09:02.850 --> 09:05.170]  And it's just going to create more and more dissent.
[09:05.330 --> 09:22.950]  And if you look at the social media playbooks of any big corporation these days, it's a written rule, basically, in stone, that if somebody criticizes you, you don't fire back, you don't try to remove the comments, you deal with them, you respond, you see it all the time on Yelp when there's a bad review of a particular restaurant.
[09:23.690 --> 09:27.970]  But that's all motivated, I think, by the PR standing of these particular companies.
[09:28.090 --> 09:30.790]  And they realize it's in their self-interest to not do that kind of thing.
[09:30.990 --> 09:38.490]  When we're dealing with these fundamentalist radicals who just object, I think, to the idea of satire, they don't really care about PR.
[09:38.870 --> 09:40.410]  They don't care about any of that.
[09:40.950 --> 09:42.570]  So how do we respond to this?
[09:42.630 --> 09:43.390]  How do we teach them?
[09:43.530 --> 09:44.910]  And I think you've hit it on the head.
[09:45.050 --> 09:47.950]  I think everybody has to respond en masse here.
[09:47.950 --> 09:55.610]  All of the media has to respond and retweet and post all of the photos of these particular cartoons.
[09:56.030 --> 10:12.450]  Because I think that these guys who are behind this today, because there are so many people that are afraid of criticizing religion and especially Islam in a negative way, that they think they can win the war because there are so few journalists who are actually willing to engage in this kind of political satire.
[10:12.450 --> 10:18.470]  I mean, how often do you see cartoons of the naked prophet Muhammad being pushed around in a...
[10:18.470 --> 10:19.530]  And I think it was a stroller.
[10:19.730 --> 10:26.070]  I mean, these are pretty out there comics and cartoons, but they're also extremely powerful.
[10:26.270 --> 10:29.270]  And if we're going to respond, I think we all have to do it en masse.
[10:30.310 --> 10:32.330]  Let me just make a couple of things clear.
[10:32.710 --> 10:52.890]  Number one, I don't want to equate in any way the challenges that we make with challenging corporations like Verizon, with the courage these folks showed in Paris, just by standing up to these people in the first place and facing all kinds of death threats and horrors that eventually were carried out.
[10:53.030 --> 10:54.750]  Because that takes real courage.
[10:54.750 --> 10:57.350]  I'm not sure that I even have that kind of courage.
[10:57.830 --> 10:58.310]  Or that...
[10:58.310 --> 11:02.350]  Lots of people that I know would be able to live life that way.
[11:02.410 --> 11:05.090]  And it's just, you know, I'm floored by it.
[11:05.090 --> 11:21.630]  But also, to answer your question as to what the best response is, I want to make this also clear that, you know, our tradition of military responses to things like this, that is precisely the wrong way to go about it.
[11:21.710 --> 11:42.470]  That only emboldens people of that mindset, because then they can point to an enemy, a tangible enemy, and they can make them the demon and make the people that are unfortunate enough to be underneath that particular government also, the wrongdoers and the targets.
[11:42.570 --> 11:53.190]  I think the best way to attack something like this is to drown it out with hundreds, thousands, millions of voices saying, no, we are not going to be intimidated by this.
[11:53.190 --> 12:00.770]  And that's where, I think, individual expression and media outlets saying something will really make a difference.
[12:00.850 --> 12:03.210]  There's a great example today in the New York Daily News.
[12:03.290 --> 12:04.850]  They had an article about this.
[12:04.930 --> 12:13.730]  They showed a bunch of the covers, some of the most controversial covers, ridiculing the Pope and various leaders and things like that.
[12:13.790 --> 12:21.030]  And they showed a picture of the editor probably holding the picture of Prophet Muhammad.
[12:21.030 --> 12:23.010]  Except that picture was cropped.
[12:23.170 --> 12:25.210]  They couldn't show the entire picture.
[12:25.330 --> 12:28.610]  They could only show basically the top inch of it.
[12:28.790 --> 12:30.370]  That has to change.
[12:30.570 --> 12:32.030]  That cannot stand.
[12:32.630 --> 12:41.690]  And if it does stand, then more things like this will happen, because less media outlets are willing to challenge this kind of restriction.
[12:42.090 --> 12:46.090]  You know, there was a great quote today by Salman Rushdie.
[12:46.090 --> 12:47.630]  And I'll read it.
[12:47.730 --> 12:49.090]  It's about two or three sentences.
[12:49.330 --> 12:52.730]  And I think it captures the spirit of what you've just said, Emmanuel.
[12:52.890 --> 13:03.970]  And he said, quote, I stand with Charlie, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty, and stupidity.
[13:04.310 --> 13:07.550]  Respect for religion has become a code phrase, meaning fear of religion.
[13:07.710 --> 13:14.130]  Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and yes, are fearless disrespect.
[13:14.590 --> 13:18.810]  I think that's a great encapsulation of what the response should be here.
[13:18.950 --> 13:29.930]  Yeah, and for those unfamiliar with Salman Rushdie, he's a novelist who a few decades ago wrote a novel that offended other extremists who then put a call out on his life, and there was a big to-do about it as these things go.
[13:30.270 --> 13:31.350]  The satanic verses.
[13:31.730 --> 13:33.030]  Yeah, so he knows of what he speaks.
[13:36.700 --> 13:53.380]  Another thing we have to worry about, I think, as hackers, as journalists, as people interested in the things that we're always talking about on this program, are, of course, not only the fallout from this particular attack, but the fallout that it's going to have closer to home.
[13:53.460 --> 14:02.340]  There was a story in the Daily News today about how the NYPD is, of course, boosting security and taking all sorts of measures based on the fact that these attacks happened in France.
[14:03.860 --> 14:04.400]  Let's see.
[14:04.940 --> 14:15.900]  Yeah, the NYPD counterterrorism czar John Miller, this is from the Daily, was describing the terrorist killers as cold-blooded in their pursuit of targeted staffers at the satirical magazine Charlie Hedbo.
[14:16.280 --> 14:20.380]  He says, quote, These appear to be individuals who are heavily armed and clearly arrived with a plan.
[14:21.320 --> 14:22.660]  They walk when they need to walk.
[14:22.760 --> 14:23.700]  They run when they need to run.
[14:23.880 --> 14:33.800]  And as a result of this, Miller's put, you know, without going into detail, said the NYPD is reconfiguring its deployment of police in this city following the terrorist attack that's happened today.
[14:34.480 --> 14:36.660]  Critical response vehicles were deployed around the city.
[14:37.100 --> 14:44.940]  The NYPD Hercules teams, which are specially trained officers armed with heavy weapons, which, you know, sounds like a party in itself.
[14:45.480 --> 15:00.980]  But, of course, the instant anything happens that's born of fear, like an attack has happened in Paris, we then, especially in this city, I think we now have a sort of routine of, okay, now what's this going to be used as an excuse for?
[15:00.980 --> 15:06.860]  Or what new fear is this planting in our current society?
[15:07.500 --> 15:26.900]  So, I mean, I'm going to pretend not to know how the NYPD is going to reconfigure itself just for the, you know, the sake of making a point, which is that I wonder perhaps if what they'll be doing is, you know, posting themselves or arresting some of the members or at least investigating some of the members of the Catholic League,
[15:26.900 --> 15:41.780]  which is saying that they put out a press release where the headline is Muslims are right to be angry because, in their view, Charlie Hebdo has, you know, also insulted the Pope, and that's the Catholic League, which is this, like, weird, terrible organization,
[15:42.500 --> 15:43.500]  is afraid of that.
[15:43.500 --> 15:59.400]  But, and they state that they don't like violence, but they also then spend the rest of their, you know, six-paragraph press release agreeing with the folks who did the killing in France.
[15:59.780 --> 16:05.820]  And I can tell you that the NYPD will not be investigating this, will not be looking at them for links to terrorism.
[16:06.140 --> 16:08.320]  And, you know, I'm just going to spell it out.
[16:08.320 --> 16:09.840]  I think the NYPD is racist.
[16:10.360 --> 16:25.260]  Yeah, we've seen plenty of evidence of that since 2001, really, with the NYPD having documented cases of infiltrating Muslim religious groups and things like that, just spying on people because of their religion.
[16:25.480 --> 16:28.800]  Not even religious groups, just, like, hanging out in communities.
[16:29.520 --> 16:45.780]  And it turned out that the officers, the poor, like, low-line officers who were required to work on these, like, utterly pointless cases were spending most of their time in the restaurants with better food because there was no information to be found in any restaurant.
[16:45.780 --> 16:49.360]  So if you're going to be required to hang out in restaurants all day, you might as well pick the best ones.
[16:50.380 --> 16:52.960]  That's the kind of nonsense the NYPD goes for.
[16:53.100 --> 17:00.140]  I'm a little bit disappointed to hear that this might mean the end of their work stoppage or whatever.
[17:00.140 --> 17:05.440]  They're proving those of us who don't believe in broken windows policing right.
[17:06.040 --> 17:19.220]  Yeah, this coming a week after a bunch of NYPD officers turned their back on Mayor de Blasio at a funeral, today Mayor de Blasio happened to be speaking at a commencement at a graduating class of new recruits in Queens.
[17:20.040 --> 17:26.940]  And while there, he, of course, this was all going on, so he cited this case and said they were people trying to do good in the world.
[17:28.200 --> 17:40.520]  And, of course, holding this up as the sort of thing we shouldn't stand for and we should protect the freedoms of, and he's saying this to future NYPD officers who I think whose job descriptions will sort of read the opposite.
[17:42.460 --> 17:45.300]  Definitely something that we need to look at on all sides.
[17:45.300 --> 18:10.740]  We have to take pause and look at the responses and measure and check our reactions because it can be easy to have these sort of consequences or reactions that are convenient for, well, other agendas, say, and it's more complex than that.
[18:10.940 --> 18:15.440]  I want to oversimplify, but absolutely that's a concern.
[18:15.440 --> 18:51.620]  But at the same time, it's really about emboldening one another across professions and really having a bit more decentralized outspokenness, especially with journalism, and support our peers so that we aren't as quieted and conservative such that you have maybe one or two people that are strong enough to get a couple news agencies to help them leak something,
[18:51.620 --> 18:58.960]  or one or two people that are strident enough to criticize, yeah, religion, check it out.
[18:59.100 --> 19:06.620]  I mean, these things should be available to all kinds of journalists instead of, oh, you've just lucked out.
[19:06.740 --> 19:10.000]  You're with the one organization that gives you that kind of autonomy.
[19:11.520 --> 19:14.640]  And the same goes for police departments.
[19:15.180 --> 19:30.560]  Their peers need to support each other in maybe supporting the mayor and doing their jobs despite maybe what the culture there might approve of or not.
[19:30.960 --> 19:32.880]  I'm not sure I agree with you, Kyle.
[19:32.880 --> 19:35.160]  I think it's great when the police aren't doing their jobs.
[19:35.460 --> 19:42.740]  I mean, when their jobs are going after murderers and actual criminals, then I think the police should do their jobs, and they are doing their jobs.
[19:42.860 --> 19:55.420]  But when their jobs are just harassing random people with dark skin or giving out tickets for victimless crimes like drinking in public, and they refuse to do their jobs, I don't see the problem here.
[19:55.420 --> 19:56.260]  I really don't.
[19:56.840 --> 20:03.900]  I do have to say, though, since the police have engaged in this kind of de facto strike that they've been engaging in.
[20:04.120 --> 20:05.640]  As an aside, I have noticed.
[20:06.200 --> 20:09.920]  You all know where I live, over in the West Village, where I used to live, rather.
[20:10.560 --> 20:12.240]  And, you know, very populated street.
[20:12.820 --> 20:16.260]  I have seen so many more people riding their bikes on the sidewalk.
[20:16.540 --> 20:17.820]  I mean, it's extraordinary.
[20:18.280 --> 20:20.840]  And they just do it, you know, without a care in the world.
[20:21.220 --> 20:24.040]  And I don't know if you knew this, but that's an arrestable offense in New York.
[20:24.040 --> 20:26.720]  No wonder you moved away from this horrible, rough neighborhood.
[20:26.920 --> 20:28.060]  That's right, exactly.
[20:28.360 --> 20:37.740]  But to go back to your point, Kyle, to get back to, I think, the heart of the issue here, which is, you know, what should a response to satire be?
[20:39.200 --> 20:40.000]  Or criticism?
[20:40.320 --> 20:40.900]  Or dissent?
[20:41.140 --> 20:47.460]  And I think, you know, we have historically seen, you know, when you respond to criticism or satire with force, that's wrong.
[20:47.620 --> 20:53.380]  Whether it be legal force, whether it be, you know, sometimes verbal force, you know, ad hominem attacks, that's wrong.
[20:53.580 --> 21:00.460]  When you respond to satire with violence, it is totally insane and disproportionate.
[21:00.580 --> 21:02.280]  And I think it's very telling.
[21:02.540 --> 21:07.440]  And it's a sad sort of commentary, I think, on the state of affairs here.
[21:07.540 --> 21:25.020]  Because responding to satire with violence basically demonstrates that you don't know how to argue, that you cannot respond rationally and logically to the criticism that a cartoon has levied against you or your religion, that there's nothing that you can do in response to that,
[21:25.180 --> 21:31.420]  except walk into an office with automatic machine guns and kill people on the name of avenging the prophet.
[21:31.780 --> 21:36.060]  It's totally disproportionate, totally irrational, totally illogical.
[21:36.740 --> 21:45.720]  And we should all see it as that, as, you know, these people responsible for this are unwilling and incapable of reasoning logically.
[21:47.020 --> 21:54.620]  In general, in any debate or any sort of interaction, really, the first person to raise a fist is the one who's run out of ideas.
[21:55.460 --> 22:12.200]  So I think, you know, as someone who, you know, as a hacker, as a journalist, as an artist, as a satirist, which all of these things, which I do, you know, there are plenty of ways to tell me you don't like my joke, that don't involve something as insane as this.
[22:12.340 --> 22:17.200]  But it's really... it's not even about that.
[22:17.300 --> 22:19.060]  It's about, like...
[22:19.060 --> 22:25.760]  it's just about the freedom to be who you are and express who you are without worrying that people are going to kill you for it.
[22:25.820 --> 22:28.900]  This is a basic fact of... this is supposed to be a basic fact of modern society.
[22:29.140 --> 22:32.720]  And when it falls out of practice like this, it worries...
[22:32.720 --> 22:37.500]  it should worry everyone, whether, you know, whatever religious, political, whatever stripe you are, it should worry you.
[22:38.280 --> 22:47.300]  Rob, I think what's especially telling also, it's not just the threat of violence for satire, but it's the response to that.
[22:47.460 --> 22:51.180]  It's responding with cowardice to those threats.
[22:51.600 --> 22:54.160]  That is what defines what happens next.
[22:54.160 --> 23:02.920]  If people basically don't respond, don't challenge these threats, then the threats will carry a lot more weight.
[23:03.080 --> 23:19.500]  If we challenge it, and I think we all have the obligation, especially as journalists, especially as hackers, to challenge these things whenever they happen, whether it comes from a government, a person, a religion, you know, a domestic enemy, a foreign enemy,
[23:19.840 --> 23:33.260]  a foreign friend, a domestic friend, anybody who says something that threatens our freedom to think, to express ourselves, that needs to be met with resistance of all sorts.
[23:33.300 --> 23:41.620]  And if we don't do that, we're letting down our fellow citizens, our fellow journalists, our fellow hackers, and we all become weaker for it.
[23:41.760 --> 24:05.340]  I will say, Emmanuel, one thing that's been bothering me a little bit about some of the response, the very strong response in solidarity with the French newspaper, some of it has been coming from entities that don't respond so strongly when more powerful entities try and censor them.
[24:05.500 --> 24:07.260]  They won't stand up to the U.S.
[24:07.360 --> 24:10.440]  government, but they'll stand up to, you know, three crazy people in France.
[24:10.440 --> 24:12.320]  And that worries me a little bit.
[24:13.820 --> 24:21.080]  Well, you know, I don't want to judge what people are responding to in other days, to other...
[24:21.080 --> 24:23.100]  I just don't think this is the time for that.
[24:23.220 --> 24:28.800]  I think the time right now, it's time for us to unite and say, we're not going to stand for this.
[24:28.940 --> 24:35.360]  And then in the future, if people don't stand up to other threats to their freedom, we say, hey, where are you guys now?
[24:35.460 --> 24:37.000]  We need you for this as well.
[24:37.000 --> 24:45.620]  But right now, I think it only will undermine our resolve to say, well, you're not as worthy as me to oppose this because you didn't oppose this in the past.
[24:46.800 --> 24:51.560]  I just... I don't want to lose momentum with, you know, thinking that way.
[24:51.940 --> 25:13.060]  The wider the response, the larger the community that can come together and see eye to eye, at least on this, I think it's going to be a much stronger message than, you know, just the people that you might ordinarily expect to speak out on this.
[25:13.180 --> 25:24.820]  And I added... having a way to drop some of the differences on it, I think, is a better... more good than bad in a situation like this.
[25:24.820 --> 25:25.760]  Yeah.
[25:25.880 --> 25:31.260]  Most importantly, you don't have to agree with even what the cartoons or whatever else are saying.
[25:31.260 --> 25:35.600]  You just have to agree that this is not... this is not the response that should happen to that.
[25:36.460 --> 25:36.880]  Yeah.
[25:37.180 --> 25:37.320]  Yeah.
[25:37.860 --> 25:38.320]  Absolutely.
[25:38.540 --> 25:41.980]  And I'd say the same thing for any kind of speech or illustration.
[25:42.460 --> 25:45.860]  To be honest, I hadn't even seen the cartoons until today.
[25:46.080 --> 25:47.400]  And now they're everywhere.
[25:47.400 --> 25:50.600]  So, what exactly was accomplished by this action?
[25:51.080 --> 25:59.060]  You know, maybe zealots of all kinds should think about that before they do something horrible like this in the future.
[25:59.300 --> 26:09.020]  I think you make a fantastic point, Emmanuel, because there were so few people, so few journalists willing to go out on a limb and criticize Islam like this.
[26:09.040 --> 26:20.240]  If you remember, I think it was maybe about a month ago when Bill Maher, you know, it was really taken to when he made some negative statements about Islam in general as well, not getting into whether or not we agree or disagree with what he said.
[26:20.460 --> 26:29.160]  But it becomes a very, very scary thing when people are unwilling or unable to speak critically about a particular religion.
[26:29.320 --> 26:36.540]  And because there were so few people willing to go out on a limb like this, I think that they really thought maybe they were actually accomplishing something.
[26:36.540 --> 26:50.140]  And if they learn that by engaging in acts of violence like this, they're only going to increase the distribution of the satire, which they sought to suppress by a million or 10 million fold, that's a very valuable lesson for them to learn.
[26:50.380 --> 26:56.540]  I'm not sure what you mean, Alex, when you say that there's limited outlets for anti-Islam thought.
[26:57.260 --> 26:59.180]  I mean, have you ever heard of Fox News?
[26:59.580 --> 27:01.680]  They engage in this kind of thing all the time.
[27:01.780 --> 27:05.560]  There is that, but I'm talking about people really going to the extreme.
[27:05.560 --> 27:20.020]  Like I mentioned before, you know, a picture of the Prophet Muhammad naked and being pushed around in a baby stroller, or even anybody willing to put out on the Internet a picture of the Prophet Muhammad, given what happened back, I think it was in 2005,
[27:20.320 --> 27:21.680]  with the Danish cartoonist.
[27:21.860 --> 27:23.140]  Yeah, the Jillian's posting cartoons.
[27:23.280 --> 27:23.620]  Yes.
[27:25.040 --> 27:28.460]  I'm curious, did Fox News ever have the guts to actually show the cartoons?
[27:28.960 --> 27:29.640]  Good question.
[27:29.820 --> 27:31.360]  I haven't watched it enough to know.
[27:31.720 --> 27:35.420]  But maybe I should start, I don't know.
[27:35.420 --> 27:37.840]  I challenge them to do just that.
[27:38.000 --> 27:38.780]  I'd like to see that.
[27:39.840 --> 27:41.800]  I mean, but I challenge...
[27:41.800 --> 27:42.780]  Yeah, I agree.
[27:42.860 --> 27:43.380]  They should do that.
[27:43.460 --> 27:45.340]  But they should also show...
[27:45.700 --> 28:09.220]  So I read an article today that the AP was criticized for hypocrisy, because they refused to distribute these cartoon images, but they had previously been distributing images of an anti-Christian work of art whose name I can't actually say on the radio,
[28:09.440 --> 28:12.460]  but featured a crucifix in urine.
[28:12.680 --> 28:25.380]  And you can imagine what the name of such a thing might be, and know that I can't say it on the radio, but they had... the AP was previously distributing an image of this, and they were called out for their hypocrisy, and they just stopped.
[28:25.540 --> 28:34.720]  So now they no longer distribute images to, you know, that offend either religion, and I think that is, you know, precisely the wrong response.
[28:35.640 --> 28:41.480]  Yeah, because that offends me, and, you know, they're always going to be offending somebody no matter what they do.
[28:42.100 --> 28:47.240]  Yeah, if you're going to come out and disapprove of censorship, don't become a party to that censorship.
[28:49.080 --> 28:50.360]  Yes, precisely, precisely.
[28:50.840 --> 28:56.940]  Guys, listen, it's half past one here in Dresden, and I know Bernie is waiting to get on as well.
[28:57.140 --> 29:00.280]  I'm sure he has a lot to say about this, and we have calls to take.
[29:00.920 --> 29:06.720]  So we're just going to... we'll sign off now, unless there's anything else you guys want to say to us.
[29:07.060 --> 29:10.660]  Try not to get recruited into any, you know, racist German organizations.
[29:11.400 --> 29:13.600]  Well, let me just say one thing.
[29:14.440 --> 29:23.460]  In Paris, there were, I think, a hundred... actually, throughout France, there were about 100,000 people that came out spontaneously tonight just to show support for the journalists.
[29:23.920 --> 29:32.020]  And from what I've been hearing, there has been very, very little, if any, anti-Islamic sentiment being expressed.
[29:32.520 --> 29:33.360]  I hope that continues.
[29:33.560 --> 29:35.040]  I haven't seen any sign of it here.
[29:35.320 --> 29:41.560]  I hope people realize it has nothing to do with the Muslim religion at all.
[29:41.820 --> 29:45.240]  In fact, so many Muslim groups have come out and condemned this.
[29:45.360 --> 29:48.180]  But that's not getting any publicity in the mainstream media.
[29:48.340 --> 29:51.480]  And that's something that really needs to be emphasized as well.
[29:51.480 --> 30:00.680]  They need to be reporting all the times that Muslims basically are speaking out against this type of perversion of their religion.
[30:01.020 --> 30:03.540]  When it's not reported, people think it's not happening.
[30:03.920 --> 30:05.520]  And that's just not the case.
[30:05.920 --> 30:10.900]  Yeah, but if you're a racist media organization, you're going to pick and choose the bits and pieces that support your side of things.
[30:11.360 --> 30:17.060]  I read, in fact, that one of the police officers who was shot today is, in fact, Muslim or was Muslim.
[30:18.100 --> 30:18.420]  Okay.
[30:18.600 --> 30:21.340]  Well, with that, I'll let you guys, Emmanuel and Kyle, go.
[30:21.500 --> 30:23.660]  And I will go on to get Bernie on the phone.
[30:23.720 --> 30:25.760]  And while I'm doing that, I'll turn it over to you guys, Alex and Mike.
[30:26.940 --> 30:27.260]  Wow.
[30:27.840 --> 30:28.480]  Such power.
[30:29.900 --> 30:30.220]  Indeed.
[30:30.520 --> 30:35.500]  So, should we segue, I guess, very briefly over to Sony for an instant?
[30:35.500 --> 30:46.280]  I mean, obviously, we mentioned before, there was an analog, I think, in terms of the failed attempt to suppress a satirical comedy here.
[30:46.280 --> 30:51.420]  Not only failed, more people have been seeing this apparently terrible film than really ought to be.
[30:51.480 --> 30:52.080]  Did you watch it?
[30:52.220 --> 30:52.620]  No.
[30:52.780 --> 30:54.460]  I have no desire to see this film.
[30:55.000 --> 30:58.040]  I didn't fail to watch it because I was intimidated by North Korea.
[30:58.160 --> 31:03.220]  I didn't watch it because I have no desire to see, like, a stupid bro comedy about North Korea.
[31:03.220 --> 31:19.360]  Well, I didn't watch it either, but I did watch when the final scene leaked before it was officially released, this ridiculous scene of the helicopter exploding and Kim Jong-un's face kind of melting to the tune of, you know, some idiotic pop star in the background.
[31:19.820 --> 31:24.960]  So, I can't really say I can comment on the merits of the film, but...
[31:24.960 --> 31:26.580]  I mean, to be clear, I haven't seen the film.
[31:26.640 --> 31:33.760]  Maybe it's better than I think it is, but I would not see this film absent this giant publicity, and I'm not going to see it because of the giant publicity.
[31:33.980 --> 31:35.960]  I have to say, I'm kind of curious about it.
[31:36.100 --> 31:36.900]  I'm going to watch it.
[31:37.100 --> 31:38.020]  I'm going to...
[31:38.020 --> 31:41.980]  See, they're going to get your $6, whether they deserve it or not.
[31:42.080 --> 31:44.860]  Well, that depends on whether or not I pay for it, of course.
[31:45.180 --> 31:46.120]  Which, of course, I would.
[31:46.560 --> 31:48.440]  And on that note, we should have Bernie on the phone.
[31:48.540 --> 31:48.940]  Bernie, are you there?
[31:48.940 --> 31:50.080]  I'm here.
[31:50.900 --> 31:53.540]  Greetings from Philadelphia, or Pennsylvania, rather.
[31:54.060 --> 32:05.360]  I've been listening to the show, and I'd like to introduce everybody who is in favor of what happened and supports what happened in France recently, too.
[32:05.900 --> 32:22.580]  And I'd like to introduce him to Barbra Streisand, who learned the hard way back in the 90s that trying to stifle speech is counterproductive, that it will result in an order of magnitude more exposure of the information you're trying to stifle.
[32:23.540 --> 32:25.500]  Referring, of course, to the famous Streisand effect.
[32:25.860 --> 32:28.820]  If you look that up on Wikipedia, you can find out exactly what it is.
[32:28.900 --> 32:34.700]  But basically, it means that when you want to censor something off the Internet, it then pops up all over the Internet in protest.
[32:35.120 --> 32:51.200]  But I had an interesting conversation with a friend here just a few minutes ago about whether the people who did this, whether, and we've been in a discussion, I've been listening to the air, whether these people are just completely irrational, whether that will even impact them at all,
[32:51.320 --> 33:03.140]  that the logic that these actions are going to result in an order of magnitude, or many, many, many orders of magnitude, more exposure to the information they're trying to stifle.
[33:03.420 --> 33:09.080]  So, Barney, I read an argument, and I don't know if I agree with it entirely.
[33:09.080 --> 33:09.140]  Absolutely.
[33:09.980 --> 33:12.560]  It's possible that the people who did this are just nuts.
[33:12.720 --> 33:36.700]  But if you want to believe that they had a logical motive, then one possible logical motive for them was not to effectively remove these cartoons, but to provoke some sort of right-wing, anti-Muslim reaction from the normal good people of France in order to create a culture war that need not exist.
[33:37.060 --> 33:42.140]  And, you know, I don't know if I buy this theory or not, but it's interesting and not completely implausible.
[33:42.340 --> 33:43.800]  I think you're right there, Mike.
[33:43.860 --> 33:56.280]  I think another possible alternative logical, possible intention that we could attribute to the people behind these attacks is that they don't really care about satire at all.
[33:56.460 --> 34:01.380]  They don't care about their PR standing in the Muslim world.
[34:01.380 --> 34:07.500]  But they are trying to inspire other lunatics to engage in these types of acts of violence.
[34:08.060 --> 34:23.280]  And if they are kind of gearing these actions of violence towards the inspiration of other lone wolves in other jurisdictions, that may actually be somewhat effective, given the high profile nature of this particular incident.
[34:23.540 --> 34:29.240]  And again, being a party to the censorship is giving people what they want, I think.
[34:29.240 --> 34:35.880]  I just want to clarify, I drew a distinction that I did not intend to draw between Muslims and good people of France.
[34:36.080 --> 34:40.040]  Like many, most, almost all Muslims in France are good people of France.
[34:40.340 --> 34:44.000]  And I did not mean to say otherwise.
[34:44.300 --> 34:45.060]  All men are mortal.
[34:45.360 --> 34:46.280]  Socrates is immortal.
[34:46.580 --> 34:49.980]  This syllogistic kind of issue that you had to clarify.
[34:50.600 --> 34:50.720]  Right.
[34:51.740 --> 34:57.440]  Speaking of issues, one last word, I think, on the interview in the North Korea fiasco.
[34:57.440 --> 35:02.760]  This past week, President Obama issued an executive order authorizing sanctions against North Korea.
[35:03.020 --> 35:05.460]  What more sanctions can be authorized?
[35:05.920 --> 35:14.880]  Well, sanctioning North Korea for the Sony hacks, which, of course, as we reported last week, have not been conclusively publicly proven to have come from North Korea.
[35:14.880 --> 35:14.900]  Yeah.
[35:15.560 --> 35:22.240]  But the president signed an executive order designating three North Korean entities to receive further sanctions.
[35:22.240 --> 35:33.920]  Those groups are Intelligence Organization, Reconnaissance General Bureau, Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation, which the Treasury called the country's primary arms dealer and main exporter of goods and equipment relating to ballistic missiles,
[35:34.120 --> 35:37.780]  and defense industry-focused Korea Tangun Trading Corporation.
[35:38.600 --> 35:44.860]  Obviously, financial sanctions against these entities are what's called for because we couldn't watch a stupid bro comedy.
[35:48.180 --> 35:54.600]  I don't understand.
[35:54.940 --> 35:59.920]  Presumably, it was already illegal to buy ballistic missiles from North Korea if you're subject to U.S.
[36:00.020 --> 36:00.180]  law.
[36:00.840 --> 36:01.580]  Well, it is.
[36:01.660 --> 36:13.680]  I think a lot of the sanctions were duplicative, and they generally have, I think, to do with the transfer of property from the United States into North Korea and vice versa.
[36:14.120 --> 36:15.420]  Which is already illegal.
[36:15.440 --> 36:20.320]  The Office of Foreign Assets Control, one of the most Orwellian-named organizations in the U.S.
[36:20.480 --> 36:22.780]  government, already exists.
[36:23.320 --> 36:23.360]  Yeah.
[36:23.980 --> 36:26.040]  I mean, I completely agree.
[36:26.040 --> 36:32.400]  But this calls into question, I think, the more technical issue of attribution here.
[36:33.340 --> 36:40.040]  Because there has been, I think, a disparity between the information security community and the FBI over the last week.
[36:40.240 --> 36:59.160]  Some might even call it a little bit of a spat, where the information security industry, certain individuals from it, have come out and said, there is great evidence here to suspect six or so insiders in Sony to be responsible for this, and not necessarily North Korea.
[36:59.500 --> 37:19.620]  But the FBI, which is refusing to release the evidence that it has aggregated, aside from the fact that sometimes the hacker is responsible, when I shouldn't even say hacker, sometimes the persons responsible for this particular action were sloppy about their use of proxy servers and had revealed IP addresses originating from North Korea,
[37:19.820 --> 37:27.860]  which is arguably inconsistent with some of their prior statements that said a lot of this originated in hotels in Indonesia and China and places.
[37:28.060 --> 37:43.680]  But this issue of attribution, are we going to start sanctioning foreign nations without having properly documented public evidence that they are, in fact, actually behind this particular incident?
[37:43.900 --> 37:46.120]  That, to me, is somewhat troubling.
[37:46.440 --> 37:46.860]  Yeah.
[37:47.040 --> 37:57.800]  It also kind of echoes actions by this government under previous administrations going after a certain foreign power over something that, in hindsight, they had nothing to do with.
[37:57.980 --> 37:59.900]  Rob, you're barely narrowing it down.
[38:01.080 --> 38:14.520]  Well, and also, I think, just on a technical note, this issue of attribution of who's behind a particular cyber attack is, in a lot of circles, considered completely moot.
[38:14.660 --> 38:16.400]  It doesn't really necessarily matter.
[38:16.580 --> 38:22.180]  I mean, what matters is the kind of repair job that you engage in after you realize someone has breached your particular system.
[38:22.280 --> 38:23.260]  It doesn't matter who's done it.
[38:23.320 --> 38:25.400]  It matters how you handle it and how you respond to it.
[38:25.620 --> 38:34.660]  In this particular situation, however, it's a matter of national importance because some of our critical exports, namely popular culture, were at issue.
[38:34.860 --> 38:38.760]  And it's a matter of reputational damage with regard to Sony.
[38:39.100 --> 38:41.740]  They need to be able to point the finger at someone conclusively.
[38:42.700 --> 38:44.540]  And they don't want to look negligent.
[38:44.700 --> 38:58.080]  And so pointing the finger at a state actor gives them kind of plausible deniability that they weren't, in fact, negligent in maintaining their particular defenses, their periphery defenses, or handling their internal data.
[38:59.940 --> 39:00.660]  Always fun.
[39:00.680 --> 39:04.360]  I think it's worth pointing out, too, that the U.S.
[39:04.440 --> 39:18.740]  government has embraced anti-North Korean propaganda with respect to this film, as according to some of the leaked Sony emails.
[39:20.400 --> 39:21.720]  Oh, yeah, as Alex...
[39:21.720 --> 39:37.080]  A very high-level State Department official gave an enthusiastic thumbs up to the killing of the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un.
[39:37.300 --> 39:49.180]  Yeah, well, as Alex was just saying, I think, you know, not even just on the... in the sphere of Sony and trying to protect their corporate reputation, but in the national sphere as well, it's always, always, always helpful to have a boogeyman to point to and say,
[39:49.280 --> 39:51.340]  there's the bad guy, there's the source of all our problems.
[39:52.140 --> 39:58.220]  And, you know, however, however true or false that is, it really doesn't matter if it's asserted loudly enough.
[39:59.220 --> 40:14.560]  Yeah, and I think, you know, you bring up a good point there, Bernie, and I think that the State Department official was actually speaking to, I think it was a third-party contractor contractor with... that worked, I think, on behalf of Sony, and then liaised with the State Department and relayed that information there.
[40:14.640 --> 40:18.560]  I think this was an article I read in, of all places, the New York Post about two weeks ago.
[40:19.000 --> 40:23.360]  And I'm getting nasty looks from Mike at the moment for anyone who's...
[40:23.360 --> 40:24.620]  You read the New York Post?
[40:24.620 --> 40:25.960]  I actually like the Post.
[40:26.180 --> 40:26.720]  I do.
[40:26.880 --> 40:27.900]  We'll talk about this later.
[40:27.900 --> 40:27.920]  It's fine.
[40:28.080 --> 40:29.780]  I think it's amusing to read.
[40:29.920 --> 40:30.320]  It's amusing to read.
[40:30.440 --> 40:33.220]  And this was one of the only places that actually reported on this.
[40:33.300 --> 40:35.900]  I've barely seen that in the mainstream media.
[40:36.280 --> 40:37.880]  But I think you're right.
[40:38.120 --> 40:39.900]  It's a very interesting issue.
[40:40.000 --> 40:45.240]  But I don't have any of my own concrete conclusions to draw about this.
[40:45.340 --> 41:01.380]  But I think that given the amount of data involved and the extent of the infiltration and exfiltration of the data over an extended period of time, and the specific targeting, I think this had to involve some internal people as well as external people.
[41:01.580 --> 41:03.160]  I think it had to be a mixture.
[41:03.160 --> 41:05.260]  I'm going to go out and say it's a mixed bag.
[41:05.420 --> 41:09.160]  This idea ties into another story that hit the news last week.
[41:09.400 --> 41:12.440]  This from the International Business Times, the Bitcoin theft from Mt.
[41:12.560 --> 41:12.920]  Gox.
[41:13.480 --> 41:15.640]  Now, according to police, was an inside job.
[41:15.840 --> 41:21.060]  An investigation into the disappearance of half a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin from the Tokyo-based exchange Mt.
[41:21.180 --> 41:28.160]  Gox has found that 99% of the funds were stolen by someone within the firm, surprising nobody about nothing.
[41:28.820 --> 41:30.900]  Matt Carpellis, the former CEO of Mt.
[41:30.960 --> 41:36.000]  Gox, recently revealed that he believed the Bitcoins were taken by someone within the company, but claimed he has no knowledge of who.
[41:36.100 --> 41:42.600]  He says, I suspect that some of the missing Bitcoins were taken by a company insider, but when I tried to talk to the police about it, they seemed disinterested.
[41:44.740 --> 41:54.500]  He goes on to say, I hope they're not targeting...
[41:56.380 --> 41:56.880]  Comforting words.
[41:57.160 --> 41:59.700]  But yeah, half a billion dollars worth of future space monies.
[42:00.340 --> 42:05.380]  And yeah, of course, it was a big deal at the time and everyone wondering who could have done this, who benefited from this.
[42:05.500 --> 42:08.580]  And again, it looks like it was somebody, it was an insider.
[42:09.300 --> 42:11.340]  Just as what the Sony hack looks like, it was an insider.
[42:11.480 --> 42:13.520]  And yeah, surprising... I don't know.
[42:13.560 --> 42:14.000]  What do you guys...
[42:14.000 --> 42:15.260]  Has this money been spent?
[42:15.540 --> 42:16.100]  Like, it seems...
[42:17.300 --> 42:18.620]  I don't know how...
[42:18.620 --> 42:24.060]  I feel like my friends and neighbors would notice if I, for instance, suddenly became half a billion dollars richer.
[42:24.620 --> 42:25.620]  I don't know, would they?
[42:27.280 --> 42:28.380]  What would you do differently?
[42:28.500 --> 42:31.020]  I don't know, but presumably I would spend some of it on something.
[42:31.300 --> 42:37.420]  Well, you could have the Bitcoin on a hard drive somewhere rather than trying to stuff a half a billion paper dollars into your mattress or something.
[42:37.900 --> 42:39.360]  I've never had half a billion dollars.
[42:39.480 --> 42:47.220]  I don't know all the practicalities about storing it, but it seems to me it's not very useful to steal it and then never do anything with it.
[42:47.400 --> 42:50.340]  Well, the insider issue, though, I think is important here.
[42:50.400 --> 43:05.600]  And I think it goes back to the Sony issue, too, because most of the current security products out there are all very much based on the periphery of a particular system, this kind of peripheral defense.
[43:07.300 --> 43:13.400]  And it doesn't give much thought to, you know, what happens if that periphery is actually breached?
[43:13.420 --> 43:14.820]  What happens if your systems are breached?
[43:14.860 --> 43:18.220]  And then someone is inside and it becomes very, very easy to make a lateral move.
[43:18.300 --> 43:24.400]  But if the threat begins inside already, it becomes so much more difficult to detect.
[43:25.160 --> 43:32.700]  There are a lot of products out there that focus on the segregation of very high value information assets.
[43:32.940 --> 43:41.520]  Things like raw footage of films that have yet to be released should be very, very highly segregated and monitored when inside an internal network.
[43:41.660 --> 43:45.140]  And anybody touching that, you know, there should be a particular audit trail.
[43:45.900 --> 43:49.220]  A lot of these tools are called, you know, DLPs or data loss prevention tools.
[43:49.740 --> 43:51.820]  But not everybody is using them.
[43:51.900 --> 43:57.640]  And the insider threat issue, I think, is going to be, you know, big business and big money coming down the pipeline.
[43:57.640 --> 44:10.420]  And my thought and theory on this is that if you take kind of the auditing of a very specific technical information about who's touching what files and doing what with what data inside, that's one thing.
[44:10.560 --> 44:13.160]  And it's fairly intrusive to monitor your employees like that.
[44:13.240 --> 44:16.320]  But if you monitor them slightly, you get a benchmark about this.
[44:16.500 --> 44:21.760]  And then you compare that with, let's say, intelligence you get from HR.
[44:23.080 --> 44:30.800]  That could really be an indication of whether or not you're going to actually have an insider threat without necessarily impacting the privacy of many of your employees.
[44:30.800 --> 44:33.040]  Because let's say, Rob T.
[44:33.180 --> 44:36.600]  Firefly over here starts printing out, you know, 1200 documents a day.
[44:37.240 --> 44:42.240]  Well, and he usually prints out, let's say, you know, 100 documents.
[44:42.500 --> 44:43.700]  There's a big spike there.
[44:43.900 --> 44:50.900]  And if it turns out that Rob has been given his notice, you know, seven days prior, well, Rob is up to no good.
[44:51.100 --> 44:55.120]  But maybe he's just working on a project if there wasn't some kind of HR indicator.
[44:55.280 --> 45:04.740]  So I think the insider threat issue is going to be really big business, but it's going to have a major impact on our expectations of privacy in the workplace.
[45:05.320 --> 45:07.280]  Which we have none presently.
[45:07.420 --> 45:12.920]  It's really frightening, actually, how much most people can be spied on by their employers.
[45:13.120 --> 45:18.080]  And I'm a little bit worried to hear you encourage that spying to be increased.
[45:18.700 --> 45:22.160]  Well, I don't think we could have any less privacy in the workplace, frankly.
[45:22.420 --> 45:26.160]  I mean, so we have no legal privacy protections in the workplace.
[45:26.320 --> 45:27.320]  Almost exactly none.
[45:27.320 --> 45:28.800]  That's not necessarily true.
[45:28.900 --> 45:29.420]  You have shown.
[45:29.420 --> 45:30.260]  I said almost.
[45:30.580 --> 45:30.800]  Okay.
[45:32.180 --> 45:37.440]  But as a practical matter, like, not all companies spy on all their employees all the time.
[45:37.500 --> 45:38.880]  And I think that's great.
[45:39.120 --> 45:45.600]  I'm happy that throughout my career, I've mostly worked in places that do not spend most of their money spying on me.
[45:46.080 --> 46:05.720]  And I don't want you, Alex, to come anywhere near my employers and tell them that they should be buying all this stuff, which will not only, you know, make me sad that I'm being spied on, but in many cases make it more difficult to collaborate across teams and other things that make me more effective in my job.
[46:05.880 --> 46:12.120]  So I think, you know, to say we need to strike a balance here is trite.
[46:12.300 --> 46:20.140]  But, you know, the balance for most American workers has already swung way too far into the no privacy zone.
[46:20.340 --> 46:24.900]  So to say we should swing it even farther, I'm scared.
[46:25.560 --> 46:27.020]  Well, it's a matter of policy.
[46:27.080 --> 46:30.060]  And I think it's something that we need to bring up with our employers.
[46:30.280 --> 46:39.300]  And this is the kind of things that unions would have been great for, you know, 50, 60 years ago, because, you know, there is very, very little privacy we have in the workplace that's left.
[46:39.500 --> 46:44.260]  But you can do things like, you know, encrypt your own data that you want to make private.
[46:44.260 --> 46:54.640]  Or if you mark things private and personal, and people are going to be very, very, well, a lot more cautious about what they put in emails after this Sony breach.
[46:55.480 --> 47:00.640]  But I do think you're right, though, Mike, because we don't want to encourage unnecessary spying.
[47:00.720 --> 47:08.220]  But I think that this Sony breach is going to definitely precipitate a big interest in detecting insider threats.
[47:08.240 --> 47:09.620]  And that is a threat to privacy.
[47:10.020 --> 47:20.760]  And I think there's no stopping it, but we do need to be able to identify it and hopefully curb some of what's sure to come down the pipeline.
[47:20.920 --> 47:37.840]  I think there's an extrapolation of what we've all been experiencing since 9-11, which is from our own government, where everyone is a suspected terrorist, especially when we travel to all employees being a suspected insider threat.
[47:38.280 --> 47:50.760]  I'm just thinking of this recent Supreme Court case where there were Amazon warehouse workers, who, of course, do not work directly for Amazon, because then Amazon would have some liability, but their subcontractor.
[47:50.980 --> 47:56.200]  And all of their employees have to be searched at the end of the day to make sure they're not stealing anything.
[47:56.360 --> 48:01.440]  And that is an insane violation of their employees' or subcontractors' employees' privacies.
[48:01.580 --> 48:03.420]  But the lawsuit wasn't even about that.
[48:03.520 --> 48:11.840]  The lawsuit was about whether they should be paid for the time they spend waiting in line to be searched against their will to make not very high wages.
[48:12.000 --> 48:18.380]  And the Supreme Court said, no, you don't even have the right to be paid for waiting to have your privacy violated.
[48:18.620 --> 48:19.120]  That's a shame.
[48:19.120 --> 48:20.200]  That would make a good job for me.
[48:21.120 --> 48:31.760]  So in lieu of unions or something that can do something about this, maybe we need more policy protections for this.
[48:31.880 --> 48:33.000]  I don't know what the solution is.
[48:33.300 --> 48:36.780]  But the pendulum has really swung very far.
[48:37.180 --> 48:44.200]  And, you know, to say, hey, Sony, you don't spy on your staff enough is not a statement I want to be making.
[48:44.580 --> 48:46.460]  Well, we have a little bit of time left.
[48:46.560 --> 48:48.180]  I want to see if I can get a couple of phone calls in.
[48:49.540 --> 48:52.740]  1212-209-2900 is our line.
[48:52.940 --> 48:53.760]  Give us a call.
[48:53.940 --> 49:00.100]  And if we have time, if you call here in time and I press your button, you will speak with us and tell us what's on your mind.
[49:00.580 --> 49:02.740]  212-209-2900.
[49:03.440 --> 49:06.360]  Such button technology we have access to here.
[49:06.940 --> 49:09.980]  Yeah, such button technologies, but none of the lights are blinking yet.
[49:10.420 --> 49:15.420]  There was another story in the news today, I'll mention it really quick, where the city, New York City, has dropped the ban.
[49:15.700 --> 49:19.500]  There was a citywide ban on high school students bringing their cell phones into school.
[49:20.700 --> 49:30.840]  That citywide ban is now dropped, leaving the individual schools and principals able to make decisions on whether or not they want kids to have their cell phones in school individually.
[49:31.300 --> 49:31.960]  I have a prediction.
[49:32.240 --> 49:41.900]  This is going to be... it's going to start to be legal or allowed in schools with wealthier, whiter populations to bring your cell phone to school.
[49:42.120 --> 49:48.460]  And in schools with darker skin populations and poorer populations, they will continue to restrict them.
[49:48.600 --> 49:49.980]  I think you may have something there.
[49:50.120 --> 49:51.400]  Okay, we got a couple of phone calls coming in.
[49:51.440 --> 49:52.660]  Let's see who is out there.
[49:52.820 --> 49:53.120]  Good evening.
[49:53.260 --> 49:53.740]  You're on Off the Hook.
[49:54.060 --> 49:56.100]  Yes, it's Tom from the Bronx here.
[49:56.240 --> 49:56.640]  Hi, Tom.
[49:56.740 --> 49:57.040]  How are you?
[49:57.400 --> 50:07.300]  I'd like to say that I wonder, in France, if there were sinister elements that put these finks up to do this hideous deed.
[50:09.120 --> 50:11.420]  In other words, were they paid to do it?
[50:11.560 --> 50:15.220]  Maybe were they in some manner?
[50:15.520 --> 50:38.740]  And I wonder, the police that got killed in New York City, I wonder if there was anybody who was hideous to put the spink up to it, give them money, help them with transportation, approach the police on the street, and they may have told him, oh, we have a way to help you escape.
[50:39.140 --> 50:47.040]  And there was a bullet waiting for him when he got to a certain area, and they made it look like it was a suicide.
[50:47.340 --> 50:50.140]  I really wonder... It is a question.
[50:50.400 --> 50:51.120]  What do you think, Alex?
[50:51.280 --> 50:58.440]  Well, I think, obviously, there is something inherently sinister about the evil acts themselves.
[50:58.740 --> 51:06.780]  I think what Tom is referring to is something more sinister behind the scenes here, into this invisible, sinister hand that's putting people up to no good.
[51:08.040 --> 51:17.060]  What you brought to mind, though, Tom, is the shocking fact that these guys were able to get away, though, which is just extraordinary.
[51:17.580 --> 51:21.740]  Apparently, within the last hour or so, a couple of them have been identified, and there's a huge manhunt.
[51:21.900 --> 51:23.680]  So, we'll see what happens.
[51:24.240 --> 51:25.560]  Definitely worth keeping an eye on.
[51:25.720 --> 51:28.560]  I do want to be cautious of the notion.
[51:28.700 --> 51:36.180]  I think people who listen to this program have heard us in general, and me in particular, criticize the evil actions of large entities on a regular basis.
[51:36.180 --> 51:40.980]  But sometimes small entities or lone individuals do evil things, too.
[51:41.420 --> 51:45.180]  And, you know, it's not impossible.
[51:45.780 --> 51:46.680]  I think so.
[51:46.780 --> 51:47.780]  Thank you very much for your call, Tom.
[51:48.240 --> 51:49.760]  Let's see who else is out there.
[51:50.120 --> 51:50.820]  Good evening.
[51:51.000 --> 51:51.540]  You're on Off the Hook.
[51:53.440 --> 51:53.920]  Hello?
[51:54.220 --> 51:54.560]  Hello.
[51:54.820 --> 51:55.340]  What's on your mind?
[51:58.060 --> 52:05.280]  I think the Islamists, I think we should call them Islamists because they don't deserve the share of the title of Muslim.
[52:05.540 --> 52:09.880]  I think they're responsible for the growing police state in a certain sense.
[52:10.480 --> 52:15.200]  They want Islamist law and order, but what they're achieving is helping Big Brother.
[52:15.560 --> 52:26.040]  So, I think we need to put down the weapons and work for something better than an Orwellianist society birthed by Islamic extremists.
[52:26.040 --> 52:26.820]  Yeah.
[52:27.060 --> 52:39.820]  As we've seen, as we've seen many times throughout history, when people want to put in, put in place an oppressive society, they, it helps them a great deal to have someone to point to and say, there's the bad guy, be afraid of them and do what we say and we'll make it all okay.
[52:40.260 --> 52:43.600]  And yeah, that's, that's the Orwellian theory, I think, in a nutshell.
[52:44.740 --> 52:45.140]  Yeah.
[52:45.220 --> 52:46.460]  I mean, pretty literally too.
[52:46.680 --> 52:46.900]  Yeah.
[52:47.820 --> 52:48.900]  1984, read the book.
[52:49.320 --> 52:49.680]  Okay.
[52:49.820 --> 52:50.940]  Thank you very much for your call.
[52:51.520 --> 52:52.860]  Nobody else out there at the moment.
[52:53.160 --> 52:54.980]  Uh, 212-209-2900.
[52:54.980 --> 52:56.640]  You've got just a few minutes to get in.
[52:56.880 --> 52:57.200]  I will.
[52:57.940 --> 52:58.700]  Do we have a call?
[52:58.860 --> 52:59.680]  We do have a call.
[52:59.900 --> 52:59.960]  All right.
[53:00.480 --> 53:01.200]  We do have a call.
[53:01.340 --> 53:01.500]  Hello.
[53:01.640 --> 53:02.120]  What's on your mind?
[53:03.000 --> 53:03.180]  Yeah.
[53:03.260 --> 53:03.400]  Hi.
[53:03.500 --> 53:06.640]  I, I, I saw that case last week and I, I agree with you.
[53:06.820 --> 53:10.800]  It's just a terrible ruling and it's a terrible way that everything is going.
[53:11.200 --> 53:13.920]  And I don't think it's ever, which, uh, which case do you refer to?
[53:15.220 --> 53:21.140]  The case, um, uh, the Amazon case, works not getting paid to be searched, uh, for their time.
[53:21.440 --> 53:22.340]  It's just wrong.
[53:22.500 --> 53:26.040]  But, uh, I've supervised big floors and factories in the display industry.
[53:26.220 --> 53:31.880]  Anyway, I, I, it's never going to change until everyone stops working.
[53:32.100 --> 53:35.340]  Just do a work strike, you know, uh, for all the people.
[53:35.500 --> 53:38.000]  And I don't just mean United States.
[53:38.200 --> 53:42.620]  And then you would see some changes because it wouldn't have a choice left.
[53:44.180 --> 53:50.340]  Yeah, that, that is a, that is a, I think, I think that's a path that's easier to take if you've got some kind of employee protection, like a union in place.
[53:51.040 --> 53:52.360]  Um, what do you think, Alex?
[53:52.520 --> 53:52.740]  Yeah.
[53:52.860 --> 53:59.680]  And I, I think we consent to these types of invasions of our privacy way too often when we sign up for email addresses, when we go into stores.
[54:00.100 --> 54:08.320]  Remember, I remember years ago leaving a Costco in Northern Virginia, and there was a sign up that on the, at the exit that said, anybody leaving, you know, subject to search.
[54:08.480 --> 54:11.740]  And they tried to search my bag and I refused to let them search my bag.
[54:11.860 --> 54:12.960]  And they called security over.
[54:13.280 --> 54:21.560]  And I said, a sign that I can see visibly only on my way of the store is, does not constitute my consent to search here.
[54:21.740 --> 54:24.360]  You know, but I was, they were shocked about this.
[54:24.520 --> 54:26.060]  You know, it caused a big problem.
[54:26.060 --> 54:28.040]  I was there for an extra 15 minutes.
[54:28.540 --> 54:39.640]  And, um, and I, I look like a complete lunatic and I, you know, I don't know how many tens of thousands of people have probably gone into that Costco and never mentioned anything and just allowed people to search their bags on the way out.
[54:39.960 --> 54:48.680]  If, if we, if we stand up to this more regularly, I think people will take notice, but we consent too easily and, and, and, and fall down too easily.
[54:48.820 --> 54:55.060]  And I, I think that, uh, if anything, uh, we, we need to, to, to use our voices a lot more regularly.
[54:55.880 --> 54:56.280]  Okay.
[54:56.300 --> 55:00.440]  And, uh, I think, uh, I think we have time to squeeze in one last phone call.
[55:00.440 --> 55:01.920]  Uh, let's see who's out there.
[55:02.140 --> 55:02.440]  Good evening.
[55:02.560 --> 55:03.080]  You're on off the hook.
[55:04.160 --> 55:04.560]  Yes.
[55:04.780 --> 55:08.240]  Um, I just have to, um, and, um, um, I'm sorry.
[55:08.680 --> 55:09.240]  I'm sorry.
[55:09.300 --> 55:12.440]  I just got home and I just heard you guys, but I just wanted to make a comment.
[55:12.660 --> 55:20.880]  I just wanted to tell you that, um, um, about two weeks ago that I was in my home in my apartment because you guys talking about, um, the invasion of privacy.
[55:21.260 --> 55:26.240]  And when I saw the number, my home number, it came up with my husband's name.
[55:26.360 --> 55:34.660]  And what happened was I picked up because I just saw his name, but then I didn't realize that the number that was calling, it was our number.
[55:34.880 --> 55:38.380]  It was his name with our number.
[55:38.580 --> 55:41.480]  And it was a credit card company.
[55:41.480 --> 55:44.160]  I didn't really listen to what they have to say.
[55:44.340 --> 55:48.980]  So I just hang on the phone, but then he thought on me that he says my husband's name.
[55:49.140 --> 55:53.780]  And when I look at my, at the caller ID, it was our number.
[55:54.280 --> 55:59.000]  This company had called us with our own number.
[55:59.200 --> 56:00.640]  Well, that's one way to get your attention.
[56:01.240 --> 56:01.680]  Yes.
[56:01.900 --> 56:05.260]  I was like, I was, I was almost, I'm still shocked.
[56:05.280 --> 56:10.980]  I kept it on my caller ID because you could see my number, our number.
[56:11.200 --> 56:11.380]  Okay.
[56:11.420 --> 56:14.080]  Well, we'll have to leave it at that, but, uh, we're just about out of time.
[56:14.080 --> 56:15.740]  Uh, send us, uh, no worries.
[56:15.840 --> 56:16.380]  Thank you for your call.
[56:16.620 --> 56:19.260]  Uh, send us email OTH at 2600.com.
[56:19.540 --> 56:22.880]  Uh, stay tuned for the personal computer show for off the hook.
[56:22.980 --> 56:23.340]  This is Rob T.
[56:23.460 --> 56:23.760]  Firefly.
[56:23.960 --> 56:24.420]  Have a good night.
[01:00:38.910 --> 01:00:39.390]  Yes.
[01:00:39.390 --> 01:00:39.870]  Yes.
[01:00:41.090 --> 01:00:41.570]  Yes.
[01:00:42.210 --> 01:00:42.570]  Yes.
[01:00:43.330 --> 01:00:43.350]  Yes.
[01:00:43.410 --> 01:00:43.410]  Yes.
[01:00:43.590 --> 01:00:45.310]  Three great shows in the row.
[01:00:47.150 --> 01:00:51.710]  Off the hook, the personal computer show and Dr. Michio Kaku coming up.
[01:00:52.410 --> 01:00:53.710]  Well, it's eight o'clock here.
[01:00:54.730 --> 01:00:56.850]  WBAI, New York, 99.5.