[00:32.190 --> 00:41.550]  T-minus ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five... All three engines up and burning.
[00:42.170 --> 00:45.810]  Two, one, zero, and liftoff!
[00:46.110 --> 00:46.550]  Woo-hoo!
[00:46.690 --> 00:47.230]  Off the hook!
[00:52.310 --> 00:56.870]  The telephone keeps ringing, so I ripped it off the wall.
[00:57.750 --> 01:02.350]  I cut myself while shaving, now I can't make a call.
[01:03.010 --> 01:05.150]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:06.010 --> 01:07.710]  But if they could, they would.
[01:08.050 --> 01:08.630]  One, dilly, bum!
[01:08.810 --> 01:10.630]  But the best, it's fake, the worst.
[01:11.450 --> 01:13.110]  I hope that's understood.
[01:13.310 --> 01:14.110]  One, dilly, bum!
[02:17.720 --> 02:19.380]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:19.460 --> 02:21.120]  The program is off the hook.
[02:21.320 --> 02:22.460]  We are back.
[02:22.640 --> 02:27.960]  We are back on the air after, I think, our longest series of preemptions ever.
[02:29.020 --> 02:30.760]  Four weeks in a row we were not on.
[02:31.320 --> 02:32.580]  This is Emmanuel Goldstein.
[02:32.740 --> 02:36.140]  I'm joined tonight by Mike.
[02:36.140 --> 02:37.760]  Where do I talk into?
[02:39.060 --> 02:39.980]  Talking to the microphone.
[02:40.380 --> 02:40.500]  Oh, okay.
[02:40.720 --> 02:42.040]  Sorry, I've forgotten your name.
[02:43.600 --> 02:44.160]  Rob T.
[02:44.280 --> 02:44.600]  Firefly.
[02:44.780 --> 02:45.220]  Glad to be back.
[02:45.480 --> 02:46.080]  No, I knew that.
[02:46.180 --> 02:46.460]  I knew that.
[02:46.580 --> 02:48.780]  It's just so much to remember.
[02:49.100 --> 02:49.900]  Kyle, right?
[02:50.200 --> 02:51.200]  Yes, hello, persons.
[02:51.520 --> 02:52.760]  And Tony S.
[02:53.140 --> 02:53.960]  No, not Tony.
[02:54.400 --> 02:55.300]  Bernie S.
[02:55.640 --> 02:57.740]  I almost forgot my own name after all this time.
[02:58.020 --> 02:58.760]  It's good to be back.
[02:58.920 --> 02:59.740]  Hey, great new intro.
[02:59.740 --> 03:00.240]  I like that.
[03:00.240 --> 03:02.080]  Yeah, well, don't count on it.
[03:02.120 --> 03:03.140]  It's a one-time thing.
[03:03.320 --> 03:03.540]  Okay.
[03:03.640 --> 03:08.520]  When we get preempted for a month in a row, or four weeks in a row, rather, we have a special intro and we come back.
[03:09.380 --> 03:12.480]  Yes, folks, we have not been on the air in quite a while.
[03:12.580 --> 03:17.340]  And it's caused no end of grief to our listeners, obviously, and to us.
[03:17.520 --> 03:20.140]  Because there are so many things that we want to talk about and bring to you.
[03:20.720 --> 03:27.480]  So much has been going on in the world of telecommunications and computers and hackers and everything that we talk about.
[03:27.480 --> 03:28.740]  We talk about so many things.
[03:28.920 --> 03:32.000]  But first, I think we should talk about what has been going on.
[03:32.120 --> 03:33.440]  The elephant in the room.
[03:33.560 --> 03:35.100]  No, I'm not pointing at you.
[03:36.960 --> 03:37.920]  People are so sensitive.
[03:38.280 --> 03:45.060]  No, basically, the fact that we were preempted for so long, it's kind of a communication issue.
[03:45.100 --> 03:50.100]  And people in radio stations tend to have communication issues, I think, more than almost anyone.
[03:50.960 --> 03:56.000]  In fact, television stations, media in general, we just all suck at communicating with each other.
[03:56.000 --> 03:56.000]  Sure.
[03:56.700 --> 04:03.620]  This stems from a problem we've been having with premiums that's gone back, actually, a couple of years now.
[04:04.820 --> 04:06.460]  And we want to resolve this.
[04:06.540 --> 04:07.580]  We all want to resolve this.
[04:07.680 --> 04:09.520]  I don't think there's anybody that doesn't want to resolve this.
[04:09.800 --> 04:11.140]  But it's a question of communications.
[04:11.860 --> 04:15.560]  We know nobody has gotten their premiums from last autumn.
[04:15.620 --> 04:18.800]  And the reason for that is because we haven't given the premiums to WBAI.
[04:18.800 --> 04:22.820]  And the reason we haven't given the premiums to WBAI is that we haven't been told how many to bring in.
[04:22.960 --> 04:30.320]  And a simple thing like that, finding out how many premiums to bring in, is something that we have been trying to find out literally for months without getting any response.
[04:30.620 --> 04:36.020]  And so basically what we said was, you know, we'll do our show.
[04:36.160 --> 04:38.720]  We'll pitch for the radio station during the next fundraiser.
[04:38.720 --> 04:53.460]  But we're not going to add more premiums into the mix because there's clearly a communication issue here where they're piling up someplace, they're not going out, and we need to catch up before we start generating new premiums.
[04:53.660 --> 04:58.200]  And I don't know if it got lost in the translation of us not wanting to participate at all.
[04:58.240 --> 04:59.020]  Of course we want to participate.
[04:59.020 --> 05:00.520]  We support this place tremendously.
[05:02.020 --> 05:06.460]  But I think that might have led to us just not being on the air for a month.
[05:07.260 --> 05:14.860]  And that's a disservice to the listeners because every time you're not on the air, people think you're not on the air for a while.
[05:15.280 --> 05:19.740]  And one week you notice a fall off in listeners, two weeks a bigger fall off a month.
[05:19.880 --> 05:21.560]  Well, there's probably nobody out there listening now.
[05:22.340 --> 05:25.700]  Yeah, people wander away when you don't have that consistency.
[05:26.060 --> 05:26.980]  They get lives.
[05:27.060 --> 05:28.340]  They find other things to do.
[05:28.440 --> 05:29.080]  It's true.
[05:29.420 --> 05:30.500]  It's definitely true.
[05:30.500 --> 05:39.900]  But we had to freeze our activities as far as committing more premiums just so that we could step back and figure out where the problems were and how to fix it.
[05:40.300 --> 05:44.080]  Now, we've been following everything that's been going on at the radio station.
[05:44.220 --> 05:45.760]  And it's not just...
[05:45.760 --> 05:47.360]  So, folks, no, it's not all bad news.
[05:47.440 --> 05:48.880]  There's a lot of good things happening here.
[05:49.100 --> 05:54.100]  We've made tremendous strides as far as catching up with various debts and payments.
[05:54.120 --> 05:57.900]  And also looking ahead to the future, we're going to be in Brooklyn pretty soon.
[05:57.900 --> 06:01.080]  We're going to be in an amazing facility, which we're going to build.
[06:01.260 --> 06:03.820]  Obviously, we have to build the facility, but it's in an amazing location.
[06:04.480 --> 06:06.320]  And I think it'll change everything.
[06:07.020 --> 06:09.120]  We have to get over these little hurdles and hiccups.
[06:09.840 --> 06:13.820]  And the best way to do that, I think, is being open and discussing it.
[06:14.560 --> 06:15.420]  We'll have time.
[06:15.580 --> 06:16.520]  We're on for two hours tonight.
[06:16.680 --> 06:24.580]  We'll have time later on, probably in the last quarter of the show, quarter hour of the show, that we'll take listener phone calls.
[06:24.660 --> 06:26.360]  And you all can talk to us as well.
[06:26.360 --> 06:29.160]  I would like to read a few of the bits of mail.
[06:29.320 --> 06:30.720]  We got so much mail from people.
[06:31.440 --> 06:33.920]  When we started to make it known that, yeah, we're preempted.
[06:33.960 --> 06:34.900]  We don't know when we're going to come back.
[06:34.980 --> 06:36.140]  We don't know if we're going to come back.
[06:37.520 --> 06:40.540]  We felt we owed it to our listeners to let them know what was going on.
[06:40.640 --> 06:43.740]  And I think we were pretty fair as far as presenting the facts.
[06:44.000 --> 06:47.000]  I don't like to point fingers or bring personalities into it or anything like that.
[06:47.460 --> 06:51.380]  There's all kinds of reasons why communications don't go smoothly.
[06:51.380 --> 06:58.460]  And the best way to make that go away is to confront the issue and to discuss it openly.
[06:58.460 --> 07:00.000]  So that's what we've been doing.
[07:00.120 --> 07:02.620]  And we want to make it clear, this is a fundraising show.
[07:02.800 --> 07:03.540]  We're on for two hours.
[07:04.300 --> 07:18.120]  And we said to our listeners online, and I'll say it to the listeners over the air right now, the best way that you can register support for us in this program, where we do not have new premiums for you, no premiums, but we do have the best premium of all,
[07:18.220 --> 07:19.100]  which is the radio station.
[07:19.100 --> 07:27.580]  If we get more people calling in during these two hours and pledging whatever they can afford, however small, however large, it's the numbers.
[07:27.680 --> 07:28.960]  Those numbers will count.
[07:29.140 --> 07:30.860]  That will send a huge message.
[07:31.080 --> 07:43.940]  If we know many, many people listen, and if many people, not even many, many people, but if many people call in 212-209-2950 and just pledge whatever it is that they want to pledge to the radio station.
[07:44.020 --> 07:45.240]  And there are the premiums you can get.
[07:45.240 --> 07:50.020]  You can ask the people at 212-209-2950 what is being offered.
[07:50.020 --> 07:55.560]  It's just that we are not offering you premiums so that there isn't a longer line of people waiting.
[07:56.300 --> 07:58.420]  We want a ton of people to call in tonight.
[07:58.420 --> 07:59.940]  We want to send that message.
[07:59.940 --> 08:02.380]  We want to show the folks here at WBAI.
[08:02.380 --> 08:06.000]  We want to show the folks out there in the world that we have people that care.
[08:06.000 --> 08:18.460]  We have people that stand up and will have our backs no matter what the situation is, whether it's a scheduling problem here or whether it's governments chasing us or corporations suing us, all kinds of things we have to look forward to.
[08:18.620 --> 08:21.220]  That's the nature of what we do, of what we talk about.
[08:21.880 --> 08:28.520]  And so that's the spirit that I'd like to see broadcast tonight and brought back to us.
[08:28.700 --> 08:38.620]  The more people who call 212-209-2950 and pledge whatever they can afford, the better for everybody, listeners and us, and the radio station too, I think.
[08:38.620 --> 08:41.120]  Here's a letter from Carl.
[08:41.480 --> 08:44.000]  I've been an online listener to your show for over 14 years.
[08:44.300 --> 08:58.900]  It's killing me to think such a simple process from BAIs failing to deliver premiums to people and causing a silencing effect on your show due to you taking a simple stand on this issue has, hang on, scrolled off the screen there, has led to all this.
[08:59.040 --> 09:02.240]  Your show has been the most informative and current tech avenue for myself.
[09:02.300 --> 09:07.560]  I've looked forward to all the varying discussions that you have, some of the great laughs and jokes along the way.
[09:07.560 --> 09:13.780]  A noteworthy experience to myself was when WBAI invested in some technology that allowed Bernie S.
[09:14.040 --> 09:18.800]  to call into the station and be broadcast over an IP device instead of the normal telephone.
[09:19.140 --> 09:28.720]  And the clarity from a listener's perspective was, wow, I can actually hear what this switched-on guy sounds like as if he was here in the room.
[09:28.760 --> 09:32.320]  And if you can basically accept Bernie S.
[09:32.380 --> 09:34.640]  being in the room with you, it is worth it.
[09:34.700 --> 09:37.300]  It is worth it because you will hear him as if he is standing right next to you.
[09:37.300 --> 09:42.440]  I know that scared some children, but Bernie, right now you're not sounding like you're in the room.
[09:42.640 --> 09:44.960]  No, I'm on a Verizon landline right now.
[09:45.020 --> 09:54.940]  I wish I could be on the air with high fidelity, but unfortunately WBAI won't let us use the Comrex BrickLink device.
[09:55.080 --> 09:55.920]  They're in the studio.
[09:56.080 --> 09:56.360]  I know.
[09:56.360 --> 10:00.680]  Well, you know, we're looking at it right here, and it's another example of communication.
[10:01.060 --> 10:05.000]  Why can't we use something that works, that makes things sound better?
[10:05.800 --> 10:10.240]  We don't even get an answer as to why we can't do this.
[10:10.240 --> 10:13.000]  We want to move ahead and do great things.
[10:13.160 --> 10:14.160]  We all do.
[10:14.360 --> 10:19.020]  And we're not saying or implying that other people don't.
[10:19.020 --> 10:20.360]  It's just a communication issue.
[10:20.540 --> 10:22.000]  We need answers to these questions.
[10:22.020 --> 10:23.700]  We've proven that this device works.
[10:23.780 --> 10:24.680]  We want to use it.
[10:24.780 --> 10:25.280]  It's right here.
[10:25.440 --> 10:26.880]  Let's get that going.
[10:27.400 --> 10:29.760]  Here's another letter from Nick.
[10:29.920 --> 10:32.860]  Off the hook is too valuable a show to simply discard over a disagreement.
[10:33.240 --> 10:35.420]  It's not really a disagreement, Nick.
[10:35.440 --> 10:39.660]  It's more like a lack of information.
[10:39.660 --> 10:44.420]  A lack of information because without that information, we can't do what we're supposed to do here.
[10:44.660 --> 10:50.240]  And if we don't know how many premiums we're supposed to bring to the station, we can't deliver the premiums and people don't get them and then everyone's angry.
[10:50.700 --> 10:56.520]  Anyway, continuing, while the value to listeners may be intangible, the value to WBAI is demonstrable.
[10:56.820 --> 10:57.800]  I like that word.
[10:58.360 --> 11:01.480]  Listeners to the show have a good track record of supporting the station.
[11:01.620 --> 11:04.820]  In my case, I discovered WBAI through Off the Hook.
[11:04.860 --> 11:08.960]  I was a reader of 2600 Magazine before I knew WBAI even existed.
[11:09.120 --> 11:10.140]  And I live in New York City.
[11:10.320 --> 11:13.880]  And, you know, there's so many people who live in New York City that don't know WBAI exist.
[11:14.040 --> 11:14.840]  We have to change that.
[11:14.940 --> 11:15.840]  We can change that.
[11:15.840 --> 11:22.360]  We have the youth and the enthusiasm and the people to get the word out.
[11:22.760 --> 11:27.680]  And New York City is one place, but as mentioned before, we broadcast all throughout the world.
[11:27.800 --> 11:31.980]  We've gotten letters from Cambodia from people that are upset that we're not on the air.
[11:32.080 --> 11:34.260]  I think that kind of says it right there.
[11:35.340 --> 11:43.000]  An ad in the magazine for Off the Hook, yes, the host promote the station through that channel, led me to the station.
[11:43.000 --> 11:52.100]  You know, I think if everybody did something like that in whatever they were involved with, promoted the station in various ways, I think we'd have a lot more visibility.
[11:52.320 --> 11:54.380]  That's one idea that we've had.
[11:54.900 --> 12:01.860]  Anyway, from there, I went on to become a fan of Law and Disorder, Economic Update, and a bunch of other programs.
[12:01.860 --> 12:11.360]  And that process of discovery is community radio at its best, potentially eliminating a show that actively promotes curiosity and discussion would be short-sighted on many levels.
[12:11.840 --> 12:17.020]  I started supporting the station through Off the Hook and more recently became a buddy and gave Off the Hook the credit for my enrollment.
[12:17.240 --> 12:27.460]  I'm not suggesting that I would stop supporting the station if Off the Hook disappears, but I would seriously question WVAI's ongoing values and integrity if the program lineup is allowed to suffer because of internal differences.
[12:28.000 --> 12:29.700]  Thanks, Nick, for that letter.
[12:29.920 --> 12:34.520]  And again, we can't stress enough that even if we were not on this station, we'd still support it.
[12:34.620 --> 12:36.780]  We'd still support this place being here.
[12:36.920 --> 12:45.900]  We'd never call for people to boycott the station or do anything that would be harmful to it in any way because of communication snafus.
[12:45.900 --> 12:47.020]  Think of how stupid that is.
[12:47.440 --> 12:55.280]  It kind of mirrors the left in this country where basically they tear each other to pieces instead of actually banding together and attacking the real enemy.
[12:55.640 --> 12:57.820]  And I don't want to spend time doing that.
[12:57.960 --> 13:03.140]  Yeah, we'd like to lean on the more virtuous aspects of what we have here and move forward.
[13:03.340 --> 13:07.960]  Get past these technical... use the equipment we have and better use this station as a resource.
[13:08.140 --> 13:08.400]  Right.
[13:08.920 --> 13:11.620]  Here's a letter, and I didn't get a name here.
[13:11.620 --> 13:24.040]  The primary premium donors... the primary premium, that is, donors wanted, was not a 64-gig thumb drive or a 2600 T-shirt, but continuation of the radio program that they loved.
[13:24.220 --> 13:29.340]  Listeners who have donated and not received their premiums are now doubly cheated as they are not receiving their show either.
[13:30.440 --> 13:34.800]  And that's a very good point from that person whose name I neglected to copy with that particular email.
[13:34.860 --> 13:35.240]  And one more.
[13:35.360 --> 13:37.680]  We had so many, but we can only read a handful.
[13:37.680 --> 13:49.920]  As a fan and reader of 2600 for over 25 years, I certainly intend to donate during the fundraiser to make my voice heard and support 2600 and Off the Hook and WBAI and free speech and all that.
[13:50.140 --> 13:56.700]  It's relevant to have a terrestrial radio presence beyond simply that of the web to reach a much more disparate audience.
[13:57.460 --> 14:02.060]  Although premiums are nice, I'll be donating despite the promise of one.
[14:02.060 --> 14:07.840]  That being said, wouldn't it be possible and probably much easier in the future for you to distribute your own premiums after fundraisers?
[14:08.180 --> 14:11.040]  Well, that's a very good question that listener brings up.
[14:11.120 --> 14:12.480]  We've tried to do that in the past.
[14:12.900 --> 14:15.320]  And you talk about communication issues.
[14:15.560 --> 14:17.360]  There have been so many communication issues.
[14:17.360 --> 14:25.320]  And we've had almost comical interactions with people back in the days when we had a massive premium department.
[14:26.240 --> 14:33.240]  There was one person who took personal offense that we were actually taking names from the database and mailing stuff and saving the station money.
[14:33.340 --> 14:38.920]  Another person was very angry when we would write anything on a package and would keep telling us not to do that.
[14:38.980 --> 14:42.960]  And of course, when we stopped doing that, they had no idea what was in the package and everybody got confused.
[14:43.600 --> 14:48.720]  Yeah, you know, in theory, that sounds like a great idea, but it involves more coordination, more communication.
[14:48.720 --> 14:52.260]  And right now, we're just trying to make it the basic amount of communication.
[14:53.020 --> 15:01.580]  Ultimately, the main idea of this is that we're still here and we're still doing what we do because we believe in this station and because we think it's important and because we think it's fixable.
[15:01.820 --> 15:08.840]  We think, despite the problems that we might encounter in the course of doing what we do here, this place is truly something special.
[15:09.020 --> 15:11.600]  It's something we all believe in.
[15:11.660 --> 15:20.780]  It's something that we all believe that it's important for it to exist and that it's important for it to continue existing solely on the support of its listeners.
[15:20.780 --> 15:21.760]  And that's you right now.
[15:22.200 --> 15:41.480]  So if you call 212-209-2950 or if you go to give the numeral to WBAI.org and throw in whatever support you can, however small, it's probably the most important thing you could do for this station, for this show, and for life in general, I think.
[15:41.480 --> 15:44.880]  The radio dial here in New York City, because we're right in the middle of it.
[15:45.440 --> 15:53.000]  And in many ways, we're the highlight of it, because we talk about things that get people riveted to the radio, whether they're angry or whether they're inspired.
[15:53.500 --> 15:55.340]  And we want to continue being able to do that.
[15:55.400 --> 15:58.240]  Since 1960, this place has existed against all the odds.
[15:58.480 --> 16:00.640]  And we certainly still have all the odds against us.
[16:01.000 --> 16:03.440]  But we can continue with support.
[16:03.620 --> 16:06.480]  And what we want to see tonight is a lot of people.
[16:06.960 --> 16:08.100]  It's not so much the numbers.
[16:08.240 --> 16:09.160]  The numbers, of course, add up.
[16:09.260 --> 16:10.120]  And that's important, too.
[16:10.120 --> 16:20.900]  But we want to see how many of you are out there, are willing to call in and pledge any amount just because the radio station exists.
[16:21.180 --> 16:22.360]  Just do it for the station.
[16:22.560 --> 16:23.620]  Do it for the show.
[16:23.760 --> 16:29.060]  Do it because you believe something is important that you hear over these radio waves.
[16:29.180 --> 16:31.000]  212-209-2950.
[16:31.000 --> 16:37.400]  We're on the air for two hours tonight and we'll be discussing all kinds of historic things that have taken place.
[16:37.400 --> 16:39.240]  Hey, one historic thing that took place.
[16:39.820 --> 16:41.000]  You all saw this, right?
[16:41.920 --> 16:42.700]  On Sunday.
[16:42.900 --> 16:48.640]  On Sunday, our good friend Laura Poitras won Best Documentary at the Oscars.
[16:48.920 --> 16:50.180]  Isn't that incredible?
[16:51.000 --> 16:54.940]  You know, I watched that awards program, which I hardly ever do, just to see.
[16:55.100 --> 16:57.280]  You know, it was predicted that Laura was going to win.
[16:57.400 --> 17:00.060]  And so I wanted to see what she would do on stage.
[17:00.240 --> 17:03.260]  And she totally deserved it.
[17:03.360 --> 17:04.880]  But my God, that program is so boring.
[17:04.880 --> 17:06.700]  Well, it is boring.
[17:06.840 --> 17:12.180]  But just for you, Mike, we have an excerpt from it so that we can hear how boring it was.
[17:12.320 --> 17:14.200]  I mean, her bit was good.
[17:14.380 --> 17:16.460]  Well, and you will hear her bit.
[17:16.600 --> 17:24.000]  But what you're also going to hear is the statement that followed afterwards, which a lot of people took personal umbrage at.
[17:24.000 --> 17:35.080]  And that was the rather stupid joke by Neil Patrick Harris about Edward Snowden, implying that he was guilty of treason or accused of treason, even when she has not been, at least not officially.
[17:35.900 --> 17:38.660]  And, you know, I realize it's an award show and all that.
[17:38.980 --> 17:41.140]  People have to make stupid jokes.
[17:41.140 --> 17:45.560]  But, you know, there's a guy here, there's a human being who's made a huge sacrifice.
[17:46.000 --> 17:49.160]  And, well, let's just listen to the way the whole thing unfolded.
[17:50.240 --> 18:00.440]  This is the introduction to the category where they basically announce the potential films and eventually hand out the award.
[18:03.000 --> 18:12.620]  This year's nominees for Best Documentary Feature scoured the globe to bring light to stories that might have remained hidden by chance or by force.
[18:12.900 --> 18:20.120]  Their efforts uncovered hidden beauty, gave voice to the voiceless, and dared to speak powerful truths.
[18:20.660 --> 18:23.600]  Here are the nominees for Best Documentary Feature.
[18:49.320 --> 18:52.160]  Best Documentary Feature.
[18:57.140 --> 19:00.260]  And the Oscar goes to...
[19:01.320 --> 19:02.360]  Citizen Four.
[19:16.400 --> 19:27.520]  First Oscar for Mathilde Gunfra and Dirk Filinski, who is also the first win for Loya Poitras, who was previously nominated in this category for My Country, My Country.
[19:50.640 --> 19:52.300]  Thank you so much to the Academy.
[19:52.960 --> 19:55.400]  I'd like to first thank the documentary community.
[19:55.400 --> 20:02.840]  It's an incredible joy to work among people who support each other so deeply, risk so much, and do such incredible work.
[20:03.560 --> 20:05.140]  We don't stand here alone.
[20:05.140 --> 20:11.520]  The work we do, and that needs to be seen by the public as possible through the brave organizations that support us.
[20:11.680 --> 20:19.400]  We'd like to thank Radius, Participant, HBO, BritDoc, and the many, many, many organizations who had our back making this film.
[20:19.400 --> 20:28.580]  The disclosures that Edward Snowden reveals don't only expose a threat to our privacy, but to our democracy itself.
[20:28.580 --> 20:39.440]  When the most important decisions being made, affecting all of us, are made in secret, we lose our ability to check the powers that control.
[20:40.720 --> 20:45.660]  Thank you to Edward Snowden for his courage and for the many other whistleblowers.
[20:45.880 --> 20:50.900]  And I share this with Glenn Greenwald and other journalists who are exposing the truth.
[20:51.240 --> 20:51.560]  Thank you.
[21:03.630 --> 21:07.870]  The subject of Citizen Four, Edward Snowden, could not be here tonight for some treason.
[21:13.560 --> 21:19.120]  And now to counterbalance that celebration of truth-telling and honesty in film, please enjoy the next few minutes of commercials.
[21:19.800 --> 21:21.460]  All right, all right, that's enough of that.
[21:22.300 --> 21:26.340]  There you go, that was a highlight followed by a low light.
[21:27.200 --> 21:33.060]  Maybe it kind of makes up for it by calling it, implying that it was all about truth and honesty.
[21:34.060 --> 21:35.220]  And it is the Oscars.
[21:35.480 --> 21:38.120]  You've got to expect a bit of stupid behavior.
[21:38.420 --> 21:43.780]  I mean, you know, they don't have a strict timeline for this thing, so I watched way too much of this thing.
[21:43.840 --> 21:46.480]  And that was, like, by far not the worst joke of the evening.
[21:46.740 --> 21:47.240]  That's true.
[21:47.240 --> 21:50.220]  If you're keeping track, there probably were a lot worse.
[21:50.420 --> 21:52.260]  But, yeah, it's history, though.
[21:52.380 --> 21:53.120]  I mean, think about it.
[21:53.120 --> 22:05.040]  But somebody that we know that worked on this documentary for so long has been honored by a lot of people that you wouldn't think would get it.
[22:05.100 --> 22:06.060]  And they did get it.
[22:06.180 --> 22:08.660]  And now this is being seen throughout the world.
[22:08.760 --> 22:09.520]  It's on HBO now.
[22:09.700 --> 22:10.540]  It's all over the Internet.
[22:11.820 --> 22:13.120]  It was in theaters.
[22:13.560 --> 22:14.880]  Kyle and I were traveling around Europe.
[22:14.880 --> 22:17.060]  We saw it in Vienna playing at a theater.
[22:17.260 --> 22:17.820]  It was really cool.
[22:17.820 --> 22:22.520]  In fact, we saw it for the first time at the Chaos Communication Congress in December.
[22:23.800 --> 22:26.120]  And I'm embarrassed that it took me so long to see it.
[22:26.180 --> 22:28.060]  But I think that was the best environment to see it in.
[22:28.420 --> 22:36.460]  Yeah, they had a screening during one of the evening off talk, you know, when the tracks weren't active with talks and stuff.
[22:36.580 --> 22:38.380]  So a bunch of people gathered.
[22:38.480 --> 22:43.720]  And it was a real community-building experience to witness it.
[22:43.720 --> 22:49.880]  But you get that in theaters when you're going through the kind of rollercoaster of emotion or whatever the story is.
[22:49.960 --> 23:00.240]  And I definitely felt that kind of camaraderie and the oohs and aahs of people kind of witnessing and learning a lot through this film.
[23:00.380 --> 23:02.160]  And they got a lot of it right.
[23:02.400 --> 23:05.420]  And you could not find a more sympathetic audience than...
[23:05.420 --> 23:06.320]  Well, how big was that theater?
[23:06.540 --> 23:08.780]  About several thousand people were able to fit in there.
[23:08.880 --> 23:11.120]  The room at the Hamburg Convention Center.
[23:11.140 --> 23:13.640]  Yeah, it's one of three in this enormous convention center.
[23:13.720 --> 23:19.220]  And to have that filled, packed, literally, with people that are all into the story.
[23:19.460 --> 23:20.900]  Many of whom, I guess, hadn't seen it before.
[23:21.060 --> 23:23.800]  Because I heard reactions from people as if they had never seen it before.
[23:24.000 --> 23:24.260]  Yeah, yeah.
[23:24.420 --> 23:26.180]  And we being two of those people.
[23:26.440 --> 23:29.100]  I'd just like to ask, to put everybody else on the spot, have you all seen the film?
[23:29.760 --> 23:30.560]  Yeah, I've seen it.
[23:30.680 --> 23:31.020]  You've seen it?
[23:31.080 --> 23:32.500]  I saw it at IFC.
[23:32.940 --> 23:33.180]  Okay.
[23:33.380 --> 23:34.340]  A couple months ago.
[23:34.920 --> 23:35.840]  And I would...
[23:35.840 --> 23:38.120]  Anyone who hasn't seen it, I don't know if it's still playing there.
[23:38.280 --> 23:40.080]  It probably is since it just won an award.
[23:40.260 --> 23:41.760]  It's available in enough places now.
[23:41.760 --> 23:43.060]  You should have no trouble finding it.
[23:43.060 --> 23:43.860]  Rob, how about you?
[23:44.140 --> 23:46.920]  I have seen a portion of it.
[23:47.040 --> 23:47.480]  A portion?
[23:47.480 --> 23:48.520]  I have not finished it yet.
[23:48.740 --> 23:49.360]  Did it scare you?
[23:49.420 --> 23:49.920]  You ran away?
[23:50.040 --> 23:50.660]  You didn't see the whole thing?
[23:50.680 --> 23:51.420]  It didn't scare me.
[23:51.460 --> 23:52.740]  It made me feel quite good.
[23:52.880 --> 23:54.980]  But at the same time, it's just...
[23:54.980 --> 23:56.300]  I haven't had the time to see the rest of it.
[23:56.380 --> 23:58.560]  But from what I've seen, it's funny.
[23:58.680 --> 24:02.580]  Because one of the very early scenes takes place at our conference, at Hope.
[24:02.580 --> 24:09.460]  In fact, this, I believe, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is the first Oscar-winning film that Hope footage appears in.
[24:09.620 --> 24:10.500]  I think so.
[24:10.500 --> 24:18.120]  And it was funny because I lost count of how many of my friends and colleagues and so on can now say they've appeared in an Oscar-winning film with all the crowd shots.
[24:18.120 --> 24:32.240]  But, you know, to take away from being unnecessarily self-congratulatory and go back to talking about the Oscars, it's really blown me away that the attention that this film has gotten from the mainstream...
[24:32.240 --> 24:40.840]  I mean, there's always going to be the audiences at conferences and hacker events and things like that where there's a certain amount of sort of preaching to the choir because there's an audience that's guaranteed to basically get it.
[24:40.980 --> 24:46.180]  But the fact that this movie apparently, it showed on HBO the other day and apparently did very well.
[24:46.180 --> 24:47.540]  It's popular...
[24:47.540 --> 24:49.960]  Like, it was being shown to the mainstream and it's done very well.
[24:50.080 --> 24:59.800]  And even the American film industry, which spends most of its time with its head in a very warm place, pulled it out long enough to display appreciation for what's been achieved with this film.
[25:00.200 --> 25:03.020]  And that really makes me feel quite good.
[25:03.320 --> 25:04.120]  And hopeful.
[25:04.620 --> 25:05.520]  Hopeful is the word, yeah.
[25:05.520 --> 25:09.480]  Yeah, there actually might be a chance that important messages can get out to people.
[25:09.660 --> 25:12.820]  And I think that's the way this film should be seen.
[25:12.820 --> 25:24.720]  If you've already seen it, show it to somebody else who might not get it, who might not have seen it otherwise, such as maybe a parent or a relative or a conservative friend or, you know, whatever you might have out there to work with.
[25:24.880 --> 25:26.420]  And ultimately, something the film does very well.
[25:26.520 --> 25:40.960]  You were saying before the clip that the story behind this is the story of a person, a human being, an actual living, breathing man, it's, you know, you can argue till you're blue in the face about the politics, about, you know, the ways of doing things and whatever.
[25:41.120 --> 25:47.180]  But one thing the film does very well, at least in as much of it as I've seen so far, I'm sure the rest will bear me out as well.
[25:47.260 --> 25:54.580]  But it tells the story of this person who did this and why he did this and him as a human being.
[25:54.840 --> 26:02.300]  And that to me was what really made the film magic, because you saw Edward Snowden before everything hit the fan.
[26:02.460 --> 26:08.560]  You saw him in that hotel room in Hong Kong, not knowing what was going to happen to him next, and just being himself.
[26:08.780 --> 26:17.140]  And he said in the statement after the Oscars that he was very reluctant originally to have Laura film him, but he's very glad that he, that she convinced him to do that.
[26:17.320 --> 26:22.260]  And I think that that's something a lot of people should take into account that, yeah, maybe I don't want to be on camera.
[26:22.360 --> 26:24.280]  I don't want to be captured doing this.
[26:24.400 --> 26:27.900]  But if you're really doing something worthwhile, you should capture it.
[26:27.980 --> 26:29.860]  Because we need to see it.
[26:29.940 --> 26:31.320]  We need to see how these things come about.
[26:31.460 --> 26:32.160]  It's inspirational.
[26:32.340 --> 26:41.700]  Watching Edward Snowden making decisions and his reaction to what's going on, that to me is more inspirational than anything that actually came out.
[26:41.800 --> 26:51.340]  Just seeing this one person who has such an ideology that so many people can believe in, that to me is, is, is, is truly inspirational.
[26:51.720 --> 26:56.520]  I think it also like showed, uh, his, his skill, but also his humanity.
[26:56.740 --> 26:57.680]  He's a, he's a good teacher.
[26:57.880 --> 27:03.080]  He was, he was showing journalists how to use various tools and, and, uh, technologies.
[27:03.100 --> 27:07.020]  And he said a lot of really funny things that are very authentic.
[27:07.360 --> 27:11.100]  And, um, well, I don't know if you've ever helped someone use something there.
[27:11.100 --> 27:13.120]  They're really kind of funny asides.
[27:13.120 --> 27:15.260]  And he said, this looks hard, but it's really, really easy.
[27:15.600 --> 27:15.980]  Super easy.
[27:16.260 --> 27:16.620]  Super easy.
[27:16.860 --> 27:17.580]  You just got to keep trying.
[27:18.040 --> 27:18.880]  Uh, it's great.
[27:19.000 --> 27:20.200]  Bernie, did you think I forgot about you?
[27:20.280 --> 27:21.020]  Have you seen the film?
[27:21.220 --> 27:23.080]  Uh, I have not had an opportunity yet.
[27:23.080 --> 27:31.700]  I don't, uh, I don't get, I don't get cable TV, so I don't get, uh, HBO and I've been really busy, but I plan to buy the DVD and support Laura Poitras' effort.
[27:31.700 --> 27:37.860]  I think she'll probably get more revenue from me buying the DVD than from watching it on, uh, on TV or in a movie theater.
[27:38.060 --> 27:42.820]  Cause there's, I don't think the movie theater revenues pass down to the artist, uh, much money.
[27:43.000 --> 27:48.260]  But I think Edward Snowden didn't want initially to be filmed because he didn't want the story to be about him personally.
[27:48.340 --> 27:50.000]  The story's not about him personally.
[27:50.240 --> 27:52.520]  It's about the issues that he brings up.
[27:53.020 --> 28:02.080]  The, uh, the, the massive secrecy about the invasion of, of people's privacy around the world and, and the United States by our own government is, is the story.
[28:02.260 --> 28:03.760]  That's the story that should be covered.
[28:04.480 --> 28:06.620]  Um, we shouldn't be joking about Edward Snowden.
[28:06.920 --> 28:08.320]  Um, we shouldn't be joking about that.
[28:08.440 --> 28:10.780]  And it is really deadly, serious stuff.
[28:11.100 --> 28:11.400]  Oh, come on.
[28:11.500 --> 28:12.560]  We can joke about anything we want.
[28:12.760 --> 28:20.660]  We can, but anyway, um, I, I don't care a, a, a wit about the Oscars, but, and as, as Mike said, it's boring stuff.
[28:21.020 --> 28:23.780]  I was bored just listening to the, to the intro, but of that.
[28:24.000 --> 28:30.800]  But, um, what I am happy about is that this is bringing a whole new audience of, of mainstream people who had never really heard.
[28:30.960 --> 28:37.700]  Maybe they've heard the name Edward Snowden, but they're not going to take what he did seriously until they see, Oh, wait a minute.
[28:38.020 --> 28:39.860]  The best documentary at the Oscars.
[28:40.420 --> 28:41.780]  Maybe I should see this now.
[28:41.860 --> 28:43.720]  And when they see that they're going to get it.
[28:43.800 --> 28:54.980]  So that's why I think this is an important historical thing, not because it's the Oscars per se, but because this brings, this is going to bring these issues, which are very important into a lot of people's minds that otherwise wouldn't have been.
[28:55.600 --> 29:01.620]  I think above and beyond money though, Bernie, even, um, just spreading the word and sharing it with people, it gets the discussion out there.
[29:01.720 --> 29:03.660]  And I don't think this was one of those films.
[29:03.960 --> 29:08.260]  You're right in saying what you said, but I think money isn't really the issue here.
[29:08.400 --> 29:09.680]  Uh, and it is everywhere.
[29:09.680 --> 29:11.300]  If you haven't seen it, you can totally get it.
[29:11.300 --> 29:12.520]  I, I saw it on Kryptome.
[29:12.740 --> 29:14.720]  Uh, I think they have a compressed version of it.
[29:14.740 --> 29:15.860]  It's all over the place.
[29:16.020 --> 29:16.240]  It's all over.
[29:16.300 --> 29:19.620]  I don't think they're going after people about copyright or anything like that.
[29:19.860 --> 29:28.780]  This is a great example of how, um, having something out there does not hurt the sales of the film or, or it goes against the wishes of the filmmaker in any way.
[29:29.040 --> 29:30.060]  People should see this.
[29:30.120 --> 29:31.220]  In fact, that's what Ed Snowden said.
[29:31.320 --> 29:34.660]  I hope more people see this as a result of, of, of what happened.
[29:34.920 --> 29:38.920]  And if, uh, if nothing else, that is the most important thing to come out of the Oscars.
[29:39.120 --> 29:41.400]  There are a lot of films that don't win the Oscars that are worth seeing.
[29:41.820 --> 29:45.640]  Uh, so hopefully people open up their minds and go out and see other things as well.
[29:45.880 --> 29:47.820]  But Laura did an incredible job on this.
[29:47.900 --> 29:48.920]  She worked so hard on it.
[29:49.060 --> 29:54.340]  And, uh, it was just, I'm, I'm privileged to be able to have seen part of that happening.
[29:54.580 --> 29:59.540]  And after, after seeing it, to talk to her in person and say, wow, I love the pacing.
[29:59.860 --> 30:02.180]  Uh, the, uh, to me, the pacing was what made the film.
[30:02.440 --> 30:04.840]  Uh, it's not one of these rapid fire.
[30:05.080 --> 30:08.340]  You don't have an attention span past five second type things.
[30:08.440 --> 30:16.080]  You, you see things unfolding and there are periods where people are kind of contemplative and, and thinking about, well, what's going to happen next?
[30:16.120 --> 30:19.000]  And it's just, the pacing I think is just perfect.
[30:19.160 --> 30:19.500]  Right.
[30:19.700 --> 30:26.580]  Instead of like the Ken Burns, uh, on amphetamines kind of like, yeah, we're going to show all these fragments of media at you and you'll get it after that.
[30:26.940 --> 30:27.320]  No, no, no.
[30:27.440 --> 30:38.260]  It very much builds out the story and shows these really kind of, slower and like more tender moments, but really that helps bring out the authenticity.
[30:38.500 --> 30:46.840]  I think that we're a good microcosm because, you know, we're people that are kind of on the edge of all this and barely 50% of us have even seen the film.
[30:47.000 --> 30:58.100]  So we need to, we need to, uh, go out there and, and practice what we preach as well, but also, uh, recognize that a lot of people, uh, have to be convinced to do, um, anything in this busy world that we live in.
[30:58.260 --> 31:04.460]  So go out, see, um, see citizen for whether, whether it's playing, if it's not playing someplace and grab it yourself and have it play on your laptop.
[31:05.180 --> 31:07.840]  Uh, and, um, other films as well.
[31:07.920 --> 31:12.360]  I was able to confirm, by the way, it's still playing in New York at the IFC center and maybe elsewhere.
[31:12.360 --> 31:12.840]  I don't know.
[31:13.060 --> 31:13.220]  Wow.
[31:13.260 --> 31:14.200]  It's been playing there a long time.
[31:14.280 --> 31:15.360]  Well, it won an award.
[31:15.520 --> 31:15.940]  It keeps playing.
[31:16.580 --> 31:16.940]  Yeah.
[31:16.960 --> 31:20.740]  It'll probably be, uh, be out in various other theaters now because it won an award.
[31:21.200 --> 31:21.840]  Um, okay.
[31:21.940 --> 31:27.660]  So that's, uh, that's that a bit of good news, something historic that happened in the hacker world and, uh, something we'll never forget.
[31:28.320 --> 31:33.480]  Um, but there's ongoing news, things that we talk about week after week and things we haven't been talking about.
[31:33.620 --> 31:35.480]  It's a lot we're not going to be able to get to, obviously.
[31:36.180 --> 31:38.220]  Um, at nine o'clock, we have Jason Scott.
[31:38.380 --> 31:38.940]  I'm sorry, eight o'clock.
[31:39.040 --> 31:40.120]  We have Jason Scott coming on the air.
[31:40.220 --> 31:52.940]  We'll be talking about, um, some other issues with him, but right now I'd like to focus on some of the things that have been going on, uh, in this amazing world of ours with regard to hacking and mischief and, uh, freedom of speech and that kind of thing.
[31:53.300 --> 31:54.100]  There's a mystery.
[31:54.380 --> 31:55.740]  There's a mystery going on in Paris.
[31:56.280 --> 32:00.520]  Somebody, somebody is flying drones all around the city at night.
[32:00.700 --> 32:04.640]  It's a drone mystery and it's sparking a security scare.
[32:04.780 --> 32:06.160]  In fact, it's going on right now.
[32:06.320 --> 32:17.100]  I was just, um, um, listening to some of the reports and there is a, uh, at least one drone flying around, looking at things like the Eiffel Tower and, uh, and, and various other landmarks in Paris.
[32:17.500 --> 32:21.380]  And they're, um, they're, they're very concerned as to, um, who this is.
[32:21.460 --> 32:27.740]  And in fact, earlier today, three Al Jazeera journalists were arrested for flying a drone in Paris.
[32:27.960 --> 32:28.520]  Yeah.
[32:28.600 --> 32:31.360]  They, they, um, illegally flew a drone.
[32:31.680 --> 32:33.220]  Apparently you're not allowed to do this.
[32:33.380 --> 32:40.280]  After unidentified drones, um, uh, flew over the Eiffel Tower, key Paris landmarks for a second night running.
[32:40.440 --> 32:44.480]  It's further baffled the French authorities who are investigating a spate of unidentified flying objects.
[32:44.760 --> 32:46.020]  That just sounds cool.
[32:46.160 --> 32:46.400]  Doesn't it?
[32:46.540 --> 32:53.560]  A spate of unidentified flying objects in the Paris skies at a time of high security across the country because everybody's paranoid and afraid of everything.
[32:53.980 --> 32:58.360]  Um, but these, um, these people were aged 70, 54 and 36.
[32:58.440 --> 33:06.440]  They worked for Al Jazeera and they were taken into custody earlier today when police spotted a drone flying in the woods in Western Paris.
[33:06.580 --> 33:09.220]  You know, this sounds like a big red herring.
[33:09.320 --> 33:12.300]  It's got nothing to do with what they're actually looking at with the Eiffel Tower and all that.
[33:12.420 --> 33:23.960]  I have a question because the word drone is really confusing to me because it means, uh, not only these like sort of fun hobbyist, uh, quadcopters that people we know have and they fly around and buzz and, and don't really hurt anyone.
[33:24.080 --> 33:28.020]  And they also mean like the, the, the killer robots that the U S military operates.
[33:28.240 --> 33:32.720]  So when we're talking about the drones flying around Paris, like which kind of drone are we talking about?
[33:33.000 --> 33:35.240]  I can't help you, Mike, because it doesn't say in this article anywhere.
[33:35.240 --> 33:36.400]  It just says a drone.
[33:36.560 --> 33:37.180]  That's all it says.
[33:37.400 --> 33:45.500]  If these are armed drones, then I think the French, uh, police are, are right to be worried if there are, you know, you know, U S in Yemen style stuff going on.
[33:45.620 --> 33:48.800]  But if they're just, you know, a little buzzy things, who cares?
[33:49.020 --> 33:57.380]  I, yeah, I don't understand what, what the, everyone's afraid and paranoid about anything in the sky, I guess, but, uh, it probably is a quadcopter and I don't know why everybody's so bent out of shape over it.
[33:57.460 --> 34:03.300]  It depends on what you consider armed drones because, uh, a lot of these have cameras attached and that could be the most deadly weapon of them all.
[34:04.060 --> 34:04.420]  Flying.
[34:04.600 --> 34:06.020]  No, not compared to bombs.
[34:06.220 --> 34:06.560]  Sorry.
[34:07.000 --> 34:07.280]  All right.
[34:07.320 --> 34:14.460]  Well, flying drones without a license in France is illegal, carries a maximum one year prison sentence and a 75,000 Euro fine.
[34:15.080 --> 34:20.060]  Um, police have cited one or more drones in five instances buzzing in the Paris sky.
[34:20.800 --> 34:26.580]  Um, unidentified flying object was first seen Tuesday night, uh, near a train station.
[34:26.620 --> 34:29.700]  And then all over the city, you know, I don't understand what's so hard about this.
[34:29.780 --> 34:31.560]  You see a drone in the sky.
[34:31.740 --> 34:34.780]  Can't you just follow it and see who picks it up when it lands?
[34:34.980 --> 34:35.300]  Emmanuel?
[34:35.540 --> 34:35.700]  Yes.
[34:35.880 --> 34:38.940]  I'm surprised that the law enforcement hasn't used that technique.
[34:38.940 --> 34:50.400]  Most of these, uh, radio controlled model aircraft, which I prefer to call them, are, uh, have a, uh, uh, uh, a homing, uh, uh, feature where they have GPS in them.
[34:50.600 --> 35:00.540]  And when you launch them, um, they know where they launched from, but if they lose contact with the, uh, with your remote control, they will automatically find their way back to you.
[35:00.700 --> 35:03.680]  So they don't, you don't have to lurch, look through the woods for them.
[35:04.260 --> 35:16.440]  Um, but had, if law enforcement jammed the, uh, radio control frequencies that are used, uh, from the remote control to the, to the drone, the drone, or the, the radio controlled metal aircraft, they would have to fly back to, to their owner.
[35:16.820 --> 35:21.000]  And, um, that would lead them right to, um, who they're looking for.
[35:21.140 --> 35:22.680]  So I'm surprised they haven't done that.
[35:22.680 --> 35:24.340]  It would be what I would do if I were in their shoes.
[35:24.740 --> 35:25.880]  Well, yeah, go ahead.
[35:25.900 --> 35:28.860]  Bernie, it sounds like you know a lot more about this technology than the French police.
[35:30.080 --> 35:31.500]  Well, that's not saying much.
[35:31.720 --> 35:34.440]  I'm just, I'm just saying they probably haven't thought of what you just said.
[35:34.440 --> 35:38.760]  So, you know, maybe you can call them up and, and get a French translator and suggest it.
[35:39.080 --> 35:41.480]  They sell these quadcopters everywhere.
[35:41.480 --> 35:50.020]  So I don't know why people are surprised that somebody is actually using one and, and probably just taking pictures of scenic areas in the city.
[35:50.620 --> 35:54.660]  I mean, you can, you can cause harm with a paper airplane if you're really smart.
[35:54.720 --> 35:58.720]  So, uh, I, it just seems like another thing to be scared about.
[35:58.820 --> 36:00.460]  And of course we have all kinds of things to be scared about.
[36:00.460 --> 36:15.640]  If it was indeed something that the Al Jazeera reporters were doing, I mean, you couldn't get really, I mean, it doesn't seem unlikely that they would be shooting things like the, the, uh, embassy or, or, um, uh, monuments like the Eiffel Tower.
[36:15.840 --> 36:21.720]  Stuff like that is easily and could be very compelling video for a story that they're doing.
[36:21.780 --> 36:35.380]  So, I mean, to clamp hard down on this because of like concerns about security, uh, you, you, you kind of lose the ability to do good, compelling reporting and, and, uh...
[36:35.380 --> 36:38.220]  You throw Al Jazeera into the mix, aren't they that terrorist group?
[36:38.340 --> 36:40.860]  You know, most people that can't make up their minds, well, who they are.
[36:41.100 --> 36:42.900]  And it, it scares people.
[36:43.180 --> 36:47.920]  They, they basically are, they're glued to their TV sets now saying, Oh my God, we're under attack yet again.
[36:47.920 --> 36:51.120]  I, I've seen some of the perspective shots and it's really gorgeous stuff.
[36:51.120 --> 36:59.320]  So it, it's, it is on par with their production level that I, I, it's not unlikely that that particular entity would be doing that kind of photography.
[36:59.580 --> 36:59.720]  Rob?
[36:59.940 --> 37:10.440]  What, what intrigues me about this is that, uh, is the, uh, the idea that Paris, uh, or that France or whoever, whatever level this is done on is, uh, actually regulating access to drones and who can operate them.
[37:10.620 --> 37:17.720]  If, if it's licensed, um, I'm wondering what the process is for getting that license, what the barriers are to getting that license, how easy or difficult it is.
[37:18.020 --> 37:19.580]  Um, I would like to know more about that.
[37:19.740 --> 37:21.380]  We don't even know what the rules are here.
[37:21.500 --> 37:25.640]  Can we just, uh, lift off from, from up here in Harlem with a, with a quadcopter?
[37:25.800 --> 37:27.980]  As long as it's less than 500 feet, right, Bernie?
[37:28.560 --> 37:29.500]  Uh, that's what it is.
[37:29.580 --> 37:32.100]  I think it's 400, but for, for commercial, it's 500.
[37:32.380 --> 37:33.560]  There are a whole bunch of rules.
[37:33.660 --> 37:42.500]  The FC, the FAA, just federal, uh, Aviation Administration just handed down, um, for people who are using drones for commercial purposes.
[37:42.940 --> 37:47.200]  Like if you were, you know, a journalist, for instance, that's commercial, like it or not.
[37:47.680 --> 37:53.320]  Um, but, um, I don't know if it would apply to a WBAI, uh, drone because we're a non-commercial station.
[37:53.460 --> 38:02.880]  But anyway, um, the FAA just handed out a whole bunch of rules, um, about, uh, where they can fly and so forth, but there, there aren't as many rules for just hobbyists like us.
[38:03.340 --> 38:05.360]  So, uh, but it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
[38:05.360 --> 38:05.580]  Yeah.
[38:05.700 --> 38:11.180]  And I, I bet that whoever did this probably didn't know when they launched the thing that would cause such a ruckus.
[38:11.300 --> 38:16.140]  And I'll bet the Al Jazeera journalists were probably just having fun playing with a quadcopter, but who knows?
[38:16.240 --> 38:17.860]  We'll, we'll no doubt hear more.
[38:18.000 --> 38:18.380]  Okay.
[38:18.440 --> 38:19.100]  More hysteria.
[38:19.620 --> 38:28.060]  Um, hackers possibly affiliated with anonymous have already attacked at least one internet connected gas station pump monitoring system.
[38:28.680 --> 38:44.300]  Evidence of the mischief uncovered by trend micro comes three weeks after research about automated tank gauge vulnerabilities from rapid seven, which is the firm behind Metasploit automated tank gauges are used to monitor fuel tank inventory levels, uh,
[38:45.020 --> 38:50.960]  uh, uh, track deliveries, raise alarms that indicate problems with the tank or gauge, such as a fuel spill.
[38:51.160 --> 38:55.280]  Uh, this technology can also be used to perform leak tests.
[38:55.740 --> 39:09.780]  So, uh, now there's all kinds of hysteria and paranoia about anonymous gaining control to gas stations and, and causing literally this, this story, um, which, um, I got off the register.
[39:10.240 --> 39:17.580]  The headline is anonymous, all caps hacked gas stations and could cause again, all caps fuel shortages.
[39:18.140 --> 39:26.440]  So yeah, let's panic about fuel shortages caused by a bunch of hackers getting into a, um, uh, a gas metering station.
[39:26.440 --> 39:31.780]  Uh, these, these monitors are not to be confused with the ones that have ads on them when you're at a gas station.
[39:32.100 --> 39:32.360]  Oh God.
[39:32.580 --> 39:33.980]  You know, somebody would please hack those.
[39:34.160 --> 39:40.080]  When did it suddenly become acceptable when you're pumping gas to be barraged with advertising and Fox news?
[39:40.440 --> 39:48.640]  You know, somebody came up with this bright idea that we were going to have video and audio blaring at somebody and you can't, the TV began, does not work on that.
[39:48.820 --> 39:50.440]  You know, nobody can turn it off.
[39:50.560 --> 39:54.420]  So if somebody out there is hacking gas stations, please make that your first target.
[39:54.480 --> 39:54.480]  Yeah.
[39:54.560 --> 39:55.420]  Let's start with those.
[39:55.580 --> 40:04.600]  I just, so when you say they can cause a fuel shortage or when the register says that, like that can't literally be true because they don't actually make the fuel go or come anywhere.
[40:04.600 --> 40:06.160]  They just affect the measuring.
[40:06.280 --> 40:14.060]  They could, for instance, my understanding just from what was read is that you could make a station or several appear as though they've just had their delivery.
[40:14.200 --> 40:22.300]  Therefore, even though their in-ground tanks are already empty, they appear as though they do not need to be replenished on a route maybe a tanker would take.
[40:22.480 --> 40:28.800]  Or, or you could make it seem as if the tank is empty and get a new delivery and have fuel spill all over the place.
[40:28.960 --> 40:29.520]  You could do that.
[40:29.780 --> 40:31.080]  That does sound exciting.
[40:31.240 --> 40:33.200]  It does sound exciting and something to panic over.
[40:33.540 --> 40:37.460]  Tank drivers, tanker drivers with CDLs don't really generally let that happen.
[40:37.560 --> 40:37.880]  I'm sorry.
[40:37.960 --> 40:41.140]  We have so little time that we can't panic over this for too long.
[40:41.260 --> 40:48.820]  We can only panic for a few seconds because the next thing to panic over, speaking of tanks, speaking about hack tanks, a prominent D.C.
[40:49.040 --> 40:50.380]  think tank was hacked.
[40:50.860 --> 41:01.740]  Yeah, the Urban Institute, as I said, a prominent think tank in Washington, D.C., alerted charitable organizations around the country yesterday that its system for filing tax forms was breached.
[41:01.900 --> 41:15.140]  Hackers were able to access usernames, passwords, IP addresses, and other account data, in other words, everything, for nonprofits that use the Urban Institute's National Center for Charitable Statistics to file their taxes.
[41:16.680 --> 41:24.040]  The director says, we sincerely apologize for this disruption and for any inconvenience this incident may cause you.
[41:24.120 --> 41:28.760]  We have a strong commitment to privacy and data security, and we are continuing to do everything, etc.
[41:29.160 --> 41:30.520]  We've heard all this before.
[41:31.220 --> 41:34.520]  Another red face in the industry someplace.
[41:35.260 --> 41:37.580]  These systems are just vulnerable.
[41:37.760 --> 41:38.280]  They're out there.
[41:38.400 --> 41:39.940]  They're easy to exploit.
[41:40.180 --> 41:43.560]  And if you put something online, you better be careful what you're doing.
[41:43.800 --> 41:49.540]  You better have some security that can protect what you're supposedly storing.
[41:50.220 --> 41:51.840]  I'm sorry, I glazed over.
[41:51.960 --> 41:53.000]  That was a data spill?
[41:53.120 --> 41:54.080]  They spilled some data somewhere?
[41:54.360 --> 41:54.780]  They spilled data.
[41:54.920 --> 41:58.780]  Well, I don't know if they spilled the data, but they had the data open enough so that somebody could get in.
[41:58.980 --> 41:59.800]  And it spilled everywhere.
[42:00.040 --> 42:02.960]  Hackers supposedly repeatedly target... I didn't know this.
[42:03.060 --> 42:04.280]  They repeatedly target D.C.
[42:04.400 --> 42:04.860]  think tank.
[42:05.020 --> 42:10.000]  Security analysts say there's virtually no major organization or agency in Washington, D.C.
[42:10.040 --> 42:17.460]  that has not faced a breach or hacking attempt of one kind or another, though almost none will confirm the details.
[42:17.960 --> 42:21.140]  So, you know, more secrecy on top of incompetence.
[42:21.140 --> 42:27.760]  Just what we need to protect what it is that we're trying to protect here in the first place.
[42:28.140 --> 42:32.120]  But meanwhile, over in... I think this is in Illinois.
[42:32.860 --> 42:33.000]  Yeah.
[42:34.320 --> 42:41.620]  Basically, we have a police department, the Midlothian Police Department.
[42:42.220 --> 42:45.780]  They were subjected to a criminal cryptoware attack.
[42:46.340 --> 42:46.660]  Yes.
[42:46.860 --> 42:48.280]  Oh, it's awesome.
[42:48.460 --> 42:49.000]  What?
[42:49.220 --> 42:50.320]  By an unknown hacker.
[42:50.700 --> 42:59.080]  The perpetrator disabled a police computer, rendering it inaccessible through his encryption program labeled cryptoware.
[42:59.320 --> 43:03.120]  And as far as police know, the computer's information was not taken.
[43:03.520 --> 43:12.260]  The computer was just disabled to net a ransom of 2.4 bitcoins, which turns out to be 606 dollars.
[43:12.760 --> 43:14.960]  The police statement goes as follows.
[43:15.180 --> 43:17.500]  It didn't encrypt everything in the police department.
[43:17.500 --> 43:22.200]  It was just that computer and specific files, not the entire system.
[43:22.740 --> 43:29.380]  Because the backups were also infected, the option was to pay the hacker and get the files unencrypted, which is what we decided to do.
[43:29.940 --> 43:35.320]  So you have cops in Illinois paying ransom to get their data back, get it unencrypted.
[43:36.400 --> 43:36.800]  Wow.
[43:37.120 --> 43:38.020]  I mean, I'm panicking.
[43:38.260 --> 43:42.000]  Is there like a news outlet to English translator that we can run on that story?
[43:42.120 --> 43:43.880]  Because I did not understand what happened.
[43:44.320 --> 43:46.020]  Well, it's encryption.
[43:46.020 --> 43:50.000]  I don't think you're meant to understand, but I can hand you the story if you want to analyze it further.
[43:50.000 --> 43:52.220]  I think I want to analyze it less, to be honest.
[43:52.380 --> 43:53.320]  It's been making the rounds.
[43:53.580 --> 43:58.820]  And I imagine this police department in Illinois has some pretty red faces in their employers.
[43:59.120 --> 44:01.300]  These stories are coming out a lot recently.
[44:01.520 --> 44:08.760]  There's been sort of a spate of ransomware just attacking all sorts of businesses, organizations, individuals, what have you.
[44:09.060 --> 44:15.300]  Like most sorts of spam and botnet type of attacks, it doesn't actually target people specifically.
[44:15.300 --> 44:18.300]  It just targets everybody and whatever hits it could get, it grabs.
[44:19.020 --> 44:26.840]  And yeah, the moral of the story here is take your backups and follow safe data practices, because if not, you might lose access to your stuff.
[44:27.000 --> 44:45.200]  But ultimately, it's funny that this is at a stage in its development and the whole arms race of computer security vulnerabilities versus defenses, that it's actually, in these cases, preferable to just pay the ransom, because we can't work around that yet.
[44:45.580 --> 44:47.020]  But, you know, it is an arms race.
[44:47.080 --> 44:48.080]  And eventually, who knows?
[44:48.340 --> 44:52.840]  Are we being too hard on the organizations and the quote unquote victims here?
[44:53.340 --> 44:58.900]  When we say they should protect their data better, is there no defense against this type of thing?
[44:59.120 --> 45:05.880]  To a certain extent, it's kind of easy to just blame the victims, especially when it's like a police department who should know better, quote unquote.
[45:05.880 --> 45:08.160]  But it's a funny story.
[45:08.160 --> 45:08.600]  It is.
[45:08.680 --> 45:09.460]  It is a funny story.
[45:09.680 --> 45:13.940]  And but at the same time, I've seen this happen to other organizations who really didn't deserve it.
[45:14.040 --> 45:15.460]  And it was a big hassle.
[45:15.600 --> 45:20.320]  But, you know, it's it's just one of those things that happens if you hook stuff up to the internet.
[45:20.500 --> 45:21.380]  Now, it's like spam email.
[45:21.520 --> 45:25.540]  Nobody likes it, but everybody has to deal with it and sort of protect themselves to the best they can.
[45:25.540 --> 45:29.180]  So it behooves all of us to to learn how to protect oneself against this stuff.
[45:29.760 --> 45:37.280]  And also it would include the people that they are protecting this stuff as as best they can.
[45:37.380 --> 45:37.440]  Right.
[45:37.520 --> 45:47.380]  So it would a lot of this would rely on like how maybe this was how this came about, how this machine was compromised and what operational stuff had to do with that.
[45:47.500 --> 45:50.020]  And then the people following up their expertise.
[45:50.240 --> 46:00.240]  I mean, they may have a pretty good team, but this stuff is getting more complicated depending on the the types of people that are running this department and stuff like that.
[46:00.460 --> 46:01.400]  And I mean, you're right.
[46:01.480 --> 46:03.820]  I mean, we may be going a little little hard.
[46:03.980 --> 46:08.300]  And I think that it's to pay and just get something fixed.
[46:08.440 --> 46:11.220]  It is actually a bit desirable, especially, I mean, two bitcoins.
[46:11.400 --> 46:17.280]  That's not very much as far as ransoms go, at least in the last year or so.
[46:17.380 --> 46:19.760]  But you understand what I'm saying is it's inherently complicated.
[46:19.860 --> 46:22.060]  I can see people acquiescing.
[46:22.060 --> 46:35.420]  The question I always have, though, is should this data, the sensitive data, whether it's gas pumps or think tanks or police departments, should it be accessible in the first place on the public internet?
[46:35.420 --> 46:46.500]  Is it possible to have something that is isolated that only certain people would know about in the first place or have access to, where literally not every Chinese hacker in the world could could attack it?
[46:46.700 --> 46:47.120]  Emmanuel?
[46:47.340 --> 46:47.520]  Yes.
[46:47.520 --> 46:51.500]  One of the stories we missed over the past couple of weeks is along these lines.
[46:51.760 --> 47:07.160]  About two weeks ago, President Obama proposed legislation to require more information sharing and limit any legal liability for companies that share too much information about cyber attacks.
[47:07.340 --> 47:09.200]  I don't even like using the word cyber attacks.
[47:09.300 --> 47:19.320]  But when corporations that are supposed to be guarding our private information, because we do business with them, are negligent with its security.
[47:19.740 --> 47:23.700]  And it gets leaked because they didn't protect it adequately.
[47:25.720 --> 47:37.360]  The biggest problem is they don't like that these companies don't like to tell anybody it happened, which then puts people like us, whose information got exposed, at risk.
[47:37.500 --> 47:38.620]  And we don't even know we're at risk.
[47:38.820 --> 47:47.440]  So I guess the government's been trying to figure out how do you get companies to fess up that they screwed up and allowed this stuff to be exposed.
[47:48.000 --> 47:57.940]  And our president, a couple weeks ago, signed an executive order to encourage companies to be more open about these leaks and attacks that they allowed to happen.
[47:58.180 --> 48:09.520]  The problem that I see is this executive order also limits legal liability for companies in these efforts, which I think is wrong.
[48:09.520 --> 48:12.600]  I think these companies should be held accountable as much as possible.
[48:12.600 --> 48:16.860]  If that were to be enforced, then maybe it wouldn't happen so much.
[48:17.820 --> 48:20.360]  All right, listen, there's so much more we can panic over.
[48:20.620 --> 48:23.180]  And we've just glazed the surface of it.
[48:23.560 --> 48:25.220]  Bernie, we have to let you go at the top of the hour.
[48:25.320 --> 48:32.120]  But I wanted to discuss this before we do that, because it's a very, very important news item that affects so many of us.
[48:32.360 --> 48:33.560]  And that is net neutrality.
[48:33.720 --> 48:35.820]  It's being voted on tomorrow by the FCC.
[48:35.880 --> 48:36.580]  Any thoughts?
[48:37.000 --> 48:37.320]  Woohoo!
[48:37.660 --> 48:40.740]  I am really happy to see it's coming to this point.
[48:40.860 --> 48:42.560]  It looks like it's pretty much a done deal.
[48:42.720 --> 48:46.360]  The Republican leadership in Congress has said they don't have enough votes to stop it.
[48:46.640 --> 48:49.840]  So we'll see how this manifests itself.
[48:49.940 --> 48:57.120]  But this looks like Title II is going to be coming to regulate internet service providers, just like phone companies are regulated.
[48:57.260 --> 49:00.200]  And that opens up a lot of possibilities that are good in my mind.
[49:00.680 --> 49:10.820]  Well, there was a piece that I just saw on the EFF website that has a little bit of concern over what's known as a general conduct rule.
[49:11.300 --> 49:24.140]  According to the FCC's own fact sheet, the proposed rule will allow the FCC to review and presumably punish non-neutral practices that may quote-unquote harm consumers or edge providers.
[49:24.940 --> 49:34.820]  Late last week, as the window for public comment was closing, EFF filed a letter with the FCC urging it to clarify and sharply limit the scope of any general conduct provision.
[49:35.380 --> 49:45.600]  The quote here is, the commission should use its Title II authority to engage in light-touch regulation, taking great care to adhere to clear, targeted, and transparent rules.
[49:45.740 --> 50:01.800]  A general conduct rule applied on a case-by-case basis, with the only touchstone being whether a given practice harms consumers or edge providers may lead to years of expensive litigation to determine the meaning of harm for those who can afford to engage in it.
[50:02.300 --> 50:03.160]  What is worse?
[50:03.280 --> 50:04.260]  Litigation is not the harm.
[50:04.440 --> 50:05.280]  What is worse?
[50:05.300 --> 50:11.900]  It could be abused by a future commission to target legitimate practices that offer significant benefits to the public.
[50:12.040 --> 50:23.720]  Accordingly, if the commission intends to adopt a general conduct rule, it should spell out in advance the contours and limits of that rule and clarify that the rule shall be applied only in specific circumstances.
[50:23.720 --> 50:25.140]  Any thoughts on this?
[50:25.660 --> 50:26.960]  That's valid and prudent.
[50:27.420 --> 50:28.040]  All right.
[50:28.260 --> 50:38.140]  I'm excited that the EFF found something to complain about because I was a little bit worried when it appeared that we were getting exactly what we wanted.
[50:40.140 --> 50:44.780]  Well, you know, I've heard so many analyses about this over the last few weeks.
[50:45.100 --> 50:54.640]  And I don't know, is it possible that the people spoke loudly, the president heard them, urged the FCC to do something, the FCC listened and did something?
[50:54.780 --> 50:55.700]  Is that too naive?
[50:55.980 --> 50:59.040]  I mean, the true test we'll see, we'll see when the rules actually go into place.
[50:59.040 --> 51:00.960]  We'll see what the telcos do.
[51:01.440 --> 51:04.620]  We'll see what the FCC does in response to what the telcos do.
[51:04.780 --> 51:08.220]  But I think by and large, we're getting more or less what we want.
[51:08.280 --> 51:10.080]  And I hope I'm right about that.
[51:10.080 --> 51:14.380]  And maybe we can do that for other things too, if we speak loudly and in a collective voice.
[51:14.560 --> 51:17.400]  Yeah, I would call my position one of guarded optimism.
[51:17.680 --> 51:25.540]  I mean, we have seen in the past, we've been lucky enough to see it happen where something that would be really bad for everyone is up for debate.
[51:25.560 --> 51:28.440]  And the right side does prevail, the side where the brain does prevail.
[51:28.580 --> 51:32.020]  We've seen it happen with SOPA and PIPA and, you know, other things.
[51:32.160 --> 51:38.140]  But as we've seen with SOPA and PIPA, it tends to keep coming back under different guises if it doesn't go through the first time.
[51:38.300 --> 51:45.980]  So this, this could be, this could be like the most historical ruling regarding internet access that we have seen.
[51:46.480 --> 51:51.620]  Or it could be just some little stopgap until the next time the, the other side tries to get something sleazy through.
[51:51.980 --> 51:53.160]  But it's worth keeping an eye on.
[51:53.220 --> 52:00.880]  And it's worth, it's worth keeping hope up because it does seem like sometimes, sometimes we can make our voices loud enough that, that we're heard.
[52:00.880 --> 52:03.520]  Well, the victories are always temporary victories.
[52:03.520 --> 52:07.960]  I learned this back in my environmental activist days fighting a shopping center.
[52:08.160 --> 52:08.480]  Okay.
[52:08.580 --> 52:11.500]  You win five years later, someone else is doing the same thing.
[52:11.500 --> 52:15.800]  If you're not paying attention, it's going to get built and you're going to lose in the end.
[52:16.140 --> 52:20.720]  Same thing here with everything that we fight, they'll come back with a different name, a different acronym.
[52:21.260 --> 52:24.320]  And it's, it's just basically postponing it.
[52:24.380 --> 52:25.580]  So we always have to be vigilant.
[52:25.580 --> 52:33.480]  But I think in this particular case, we can look at this as a big victory because it sure seemed, what was it, a year ago, that it was going to go the other way.
[52:33.640 --> 52:34.400]  Am I right about that, Bernie?
[52:34.740 --> 52:34.920]  Yep.
[52:35.260 --> 52:35.460]  Yep.
[52:35.540 --> 52:37.560]  We, we didn't think it was going to, I didn't think it was going to happen.
[52:38.040 --> 52:39.500]  Um, but here it is happening.
[52:39.620 --> 52:43.520]  There is one thing that is not happening that I wish would happen with this.
[52:43.620 --> 52:49.820]  And that is, uh, there's something called zero rate, which is, uh, what some, uh, internet service providers will provide.
[52:50.020 --> 53:05.980]  Like for instance, T-Mobile, they provide, uh, uh, some music service where, um, consumers can download, uh, music, um, for free or for a flat rate, um, from, from T-Mobile, but the data, they don't, they don't have to pay for the data usage for that,
[53:06.220 --> 53:11.540]  which puts the, uh, other music providers at a competitive disadvantage.
[53:11.900 --> 53:14.260]  So we're going to see how that, that's going to play out.
[53:14.340 --> 53:25.620]  But I think that's, it's kind of like providing a fast lane when customers aren't charged for one service, but are charged for other services because, um, um, there's a competitive disadvantage.
[53:25.820 --> 53:27.820]  So we'll see how the zero rate thing pans out.
[53:27.900 --> 53:30.340]  But for the most part, I'm optimistic, I'm hopeful and optimistic.
[53:30.560 --> 53:31.440]  This is going to be what we want.
[53:31.800 --> 53:35.620]  Now, seeing how this story has panned out in sort of the mainstream media, this was front page in the Times.
[53:36.040 --> 53:39.820]  It's, uh, you know, been, it's been on the, uh, mainstream network news and things like that.
[53:40.180 --> 53:53.280]  And whenever it's something that, one thing we've always tried to do on the show is take these issues that might seem complex to, uh, someone who wouldn't call himself a technical person and, uh, try and explain it and break it down in such a way where it's easy to understand what's actually going on.
[53:53.660 --> 53:58.140]  And, uh, that's something that's, I think has always been important to us on this show and important to the others on this station.
[53:58.580 --> 54:03.360]  And, uh, it's, it's a reason to, I think, try and keep us doing what we're doing, keep the station where it is.
[54:03.480 --> 54:16.520]  So, uh, if those, if you haven't yet called 212-209-2950 or gone to give the numeral to wbai.org and, uh, shown your support and, um, and thrown your voice into the, to the hat to say, yeah, this is an important thing we're doing.
[54:16.940 --> 54:25.780]  Um, then, uh, then I think now's the time because we've shown that, uh, that it can be successful to sort of get the word out on things like this and, uh, try and affect the positive outcome.
[54:25.880 --> 54:27.020]  We have so much to talk to.
[54:27.100 --> 54:29.620]  We've only scratched the surface and Rob, you make a very good point there.
[54:30.040 --> 54:32.400]  Uh, it's, it's so vital for people to call that number.
[54:32.540 --> 54:35.180]  Now we're back on the air now after a month of being preempted.
[54:35.260 --> 54:40.780]  And if we get a good turnout here, I think it'll, it'll say indisputably that there is a big audience.
[54:40.940 --> 54:46.300]  for this kind of content, for this kind of discussion, we'll be opening up to phone lines later on.
[54:46.380 --> 54:50.600]  We can, you can join the discussion, but for now, please call and pledge whatever you can.
[54:50.760 --> 54:51.880]  It's the numbers that count.
[54:52.060 --> 54:57.640]  If we get dozens and dozens of people calling in, that is going to mean something huge, regardless of how much they pledge.
[54:58.100 --> 55:00.500]  212-209-2950.
[55:00.980 --> 55:03.520]  We're on the air for another hour after this.
[55:03.780 --> 55:07.180]  And our, our future really depends on you at this point.
[55:07.340 --> 55:15.700]  Uh, if we're on every week, if we're on more time, less time, whatever, it depends on how many people call in and say, I'm here for off the hook.
[55:15.840 --> 55:17.760]  I'm listening to that particular show.
[55:18.160 --> 55:27.100]  And I want that show to stay on the air and, and voice by voice, your support by pledging whatever you can afford 212-209-2950.
[55:27.780 --> 55:32.860]  there's no place like WBAI, certainly anywhere in the FM dial in New York.
[55:32.960 --> 55:37.480]  And I dare say anywhere in the country that is quite like this.
[55:37.540 --> 55:47.380]  A lot of people have said to us in the last week or so, after we went public with all the preemptions and our frustration, uh, why bother staying on the radio?
[55:47.540 --> 55:49.720]  Why not just do an online podcast?
[55:50.220 --> 55:57.440]  And you know, there's, there's merit to that thought because a lot of people I know do listen on the podcast, but you know, you're not listening to a podcast.
[55:57.440 --> 56:03.480]  You're listening to a podcast of a radio, uh, radio show on a radio station, not a podcast.
[56:03.480 --> 56:05.160]  It's just produced for its own sake.
[56:05.380 --> 56:08.720]  Uh, you're not listening to a bunch of automated files that are pieced together.
[56:08.880 --> 56:14.860]  You're listening to actual human beings here in Harlem that come into a radio studio and make radio.
[56:15.200 --> 56:19.560]  And that to me, at least is the difference that makes it so magical.
[56:20.120 --> 56:26.980]  But I also think the most important thing is that with a radio station, you don't just reach the people that want to hear you.
[56:27.120 --> 56:30.160]  You don't just reach the people that say, oh, I'm going to download this program now.
[56:30.540 --> 56:34.240]  You reach people by complete chance and accident.
[56:34.380 --> 56:37.740]  People who are just turning on the FM dial and pass by.
[56:37.880 --> 56:44.540]  We've gotten so many people, not only as listeners, but as participants in the hacker world by finding us on the FM dial.
[56:44.840 --> 56:45.920]  That's the magic of radio.
[56:46.060 --> 56:47.640]  You never know how many people are actually out there.
[56:47.640 --> 56:53.820]  You don't know who's out there, unlike on the Internet, where you can actually see people's IPs and log who they're listening to.
[56:54.040 --> 56:55.000]  That is possible.
[56:55.700 --> 56:58.060]  Radio is virtually unlimited.
[56:58.320 --> 57:13.880]  And as long as we have the chance of broadcasting on an FM station from the top of the Empire State Building, no less, hitting four different states, we're going to try everything that we know of to protect that particular ability.
[57:14.480 --> 57:16.940]  It's the magic that makes off the hook what it is.
[57:17.020 --> 57:18.680]  The magic that makes WBAI what it is.
[57:19.020 --> 57:25.040]  And your investment in that will ensure its survival for the next 50 years or however long.
[57:25.160 --> 57:25.520]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[57:25.760 --> 57:32.500]  I just want to also remind our listeners that our presence on WBAI is far from certain.
[57:32.520 --> 57:37.340]  As our listeners learned over the past month or so, we could just disappear.
[57:37.440 --> 57:42.860]  Not because we want to disappear, because the station management may just choose to not have us on the air anymore.
[57:42.860 --> 57:48.940]  And one of the parts of the decision-making process they use is, do we generate any revenue for the station?
[57:49.080 --> 57:52.600]  Now, we hate to have to do that, but the fact is, this is not a commercial station.
[57:52.780 --> 57:55.680]  So it's purely supported by listeners.
[57:55.880 --> 57:57.360]  It's a collective, basically.
[57:57.500 --> 57:58.880]  It keeps the station on the air.
[57:59.120 --> 58:07.760]  I'd much rather be associated with a radio station that has no advertising and is purely supported directly by its listeners than any commercial radio station.
[58:07.760 --> 58:19.040]  And there's a lot of commercial radio station interests, corporations, that are drooling over this frequency slot, 99.5 megahertz, in the middle of a commercial dial in Manhattan.
[58:19.040 --> 58:22.760]  The reason we're here is on that frequency slot is just an accident of history.
[58:22.760 --> 58:39.540]  But there's a lot of things that's stacked against WBAI, unless listeners stand up and express their support for the station, for the show, whether you agree or disagree with some of the station management's practices, the fact is, the station is going to go away if people don't support it.
[58:39.540 --> 58:46.860]  So I urge everyone hearing this to call 212-209-2950, pledge a little, pledge a lot, pledge whatever you can.
[58:47.160 --> 58:52.840]  We can't give you any special gifts this time, but it's important to keep the station and the show on the air.
[58:53.500 --> 58:55.200]  It's important, please, everybody.
[58:55.340 --> 58:56.740]  As many calls as we can.
[58:56.900 --> 58:59.720]  Any amount is totally okay with us.
[59:01.340 --> 59:03.200]  212-209-2950.
[59:03.200 --> 59:03.900]  Please call.
[59:04.020 --> 59:04.780]  Support off the hook.
[59:04.940 --> 59:06.180]  Support WBAI.
[59:06.180 --> 59:13.760]  And I just want to add, there's a lot of tumultuous stuff going on with the station and so on.
[59:13.800 --> 59:15.980]  But I will report there is progress.
[59:16.180 --> 59:19.360]  There is a lot of exciting things going on with BAI.
[59:19.560 --> 59:26.980]  And throughout, in the past year, there's been a lot of changes, catching up on a lot of things, all the way back from the storm.
[59:27.100 --> 59:28.620]  We've been talking about our premiums, obviously.
[59:28.760 --> 59:30.640]  We've been focused on our work.
[59:30.640 --> 59:35.920]  But the new facility in Brooklyn is a really fantastic place.
[59:36.100 --> 59:38.300]  We've talked about that and alluded to the progress there.
[59:38.400 --> 59:47.740]  They're actually talking about building and coming up with budgeting for materials and actually growing within that space, which would be incredible.
[59:47.740 --> 59:57.280]  And we actually, we're limited here at WHCR insofar as our time having been a guest of this particular station.
[59:57.280 --> 59:58.800]  So it's exciting.
[59:59.080 --> 01:00:00.660]  There is a lot to look forward to.
[01:00:00.900 --> 01:00:14.060]  And with your support, 212-209-2950, we can continue to be here and be a part of this magic and on into the next facility and time to come.
[01:00:14.060 --> 01:00:19.720]  There is so much that has, as you say, Kyle, been accomplished and will continue to be accomplished.
[01:00:19.980 --> 01:00:22.000]  And we've experienced frustration.
[01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:27.580]  We haven't been on the air the last few weeks because of the problems that we've been experiencing with premium fulfillment.
[01:00:27.580 --> 01:00:30.100]  But we do recognize it's a tough job.
[01:00:30.500 --> 01:00:32.120]  Very few people are doing it.
[01:00:32.540 --> 01:00:38.940]  And that's why we just want the communication lines to be open because we realize how difficult the job is and we want to help in whatever way possible.
[01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:40.640]  And we are not going to forget the listeners.
[01:00:40.680 --> 01:00:44.860]  If even one person doesn't get something that they were promised, we're going to keep pursuing that.
[01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:46.860]  And as you can see, we will pay the price for it.
[01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:53.000]  If need be, we will take a stand and not be heard for a while if that's how it goes.
[01:00:53.680 --> 01:00:56.440]  But I think we're over the difficult parts.
[01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:59.180]  And I think that we have good things to look forward to.
[01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:02.240]  We said we're not giving you anything special.
[01:01:02.240 --> 01:01:02.880]  We really are.
[01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:04.580]  We're giving you the radio station.
[01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:13.800]  And by having a ton of you calling in now, 212-209-2950, and saying that it matters to you, saying that off the hook matters to you, it will count.
[01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:14.680]  It will be remembered.
[01:01:14.780 --> 01:01:18.600]  I think it'll be remembered even more than if a lot of people called to get premiums.
[01:01:18.600 --> 01:01:29.160]  I think people will say, hey, remember the day when so many people called just to say they wanted off the hook to continue, and they backed it up with, what, a $10 pledge, a $20 pledge, whatever it is they can afford.
[01:01:30.020 --> 01:01:32.580]  212-209-2950, this is your chance.
[01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:38.360]  Call your friends, call your enemies, call anybody, and get them to call in as well, because it all matters.
[01:01:38.420 --> 01:01:39.340]  It all adds up.
[01:01:39.460 --> 01:01:42.340]  And that's the only reason we continue to be here.
[01:01:42.520 --> 01:01:45.980]  Hey, we're over our last hour, our first hour.
[01:01:46.140 --> 01:01:48.480]  We're at the end of our first hour, about to begin our second hour here.
[01:01:48.940 --> 01:01:49.920]  WBAI New York.
[01:01:50.560 --> 01:01:52.640]  The Personal Computer Show will not be on tonight.
[01:01:52.640 --> 01:01:54.200]  I think they'll be back next week.
[01:01:54.700 --> 01:02:00.960]  And we will be back with the second special hour of Off the Hook, right after this.
[01:02:11.600 --> 01:02:13.400]  Okay, I didn't mean right after a bunch of silence.
[01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:15.960]  I meant after a bunch of announcements, which apparently are not working.
[01:02:17.660 --> 01:02:18.800]  Okay, is it that one?
[01:02:19.580 --> 01:02:21.120]  I look into that, because my girlfriend's...
[01:02:21.120 --> 01:02:22.100]  No, I don't know who that is.
[01:02:22.780 --> 01:02:25.880]  Can someone help me here and figure out how to get this thing on the air?
[01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:27.220]  I thought this was the cart machine.
[01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:28.540]  Apparently, it's not the cart machine.
[01:02:30.040 --> 01:02:31.760]  Okay, we're supposed to play some announcements.
[01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.220]  Do you see anything that's not pressed that should be pressed?
[01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:39.340]  It's like a puzzle every time I come in this.
[01:02:39.460 --> 01:02:43.100]  The buttons are in combinations that cannot be...
[01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:44.240]  Okay.
[01:02:46.220 --> 01:02:47.160]  You got something there?
[01:02:47.560 --> 01:02:48.440]  Yeah, it's playing.
[01:02:48.460 --> 01:02:49.300]  It's playing over there.
[01:02:49.300 --> 01:02:50.480]  It's not playing over here.
[01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:52.780]  That's the problem.
[01:02:52.780 --> 01:02:55.240]  I'm going to press these buttons, too.
[01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:56.280]  No?
[01:02:56.560 --> 01:02:56.940]  All right.
[01:02:57.140 --> 01:02:59.360]  I sound like such an incompetent right now.
[01:03:00.520 --> 01:03:02.920]  But believe me, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do.
[01:03:04.140 --> 01:03:04.860]  Maybe it's...
[01:03:04.860 --> 01:03:05.340]  Hi, Max.
[01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:07.300]  Why isn't this playing over the air?
[01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:08.840]  What am I doing wrong this time?
[01:03:09.100 --> 01:03:11.160]  Well, you didn't bring up the computer pot.
[01:03:11.320 --> 01:03:12.660]  Did I bring up the computer pot?
[01:03:12.940 --> 01:03:13.780]  Oh, it's computer!
[01:03:13.780 --> 01:03:14.220]  I'm sorry.
[01:03:14.240 --> 01:03:15.100]  I thought it was cart machine.
[01:03:15.220 --> 01:03:16.200]  My mistake...
[01:03:16.200 --> 01:03:17.680]  I'm sorry if I blamed anybody.
[01:03:17.820 --> 01:03:18.540]  It's computer.
[01:03:19.120 --> 01:03:20.500]  You see, we used to have a cart machine.
[01:03:20.500 --> 01:03:21.680]  It was so much easier back then.
[01:03:22.140 --> 01:03:22.300]  All right.
[01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:27.100]  We'll be back in a few minutes with the second half of Off the Hook.
[01:03:27.780 --> 01:03:32.840]  We who believe in freedom cannot rest.
[01:03:36.690 --> 01:03:39.550]  We who believe in freedom...
[01:03:39.550 --> 01:03:41.170]  This Thursday from 10 a.m.
[01:03:41.230 --> 01:03:52.430]  to noon, join Nellie Hester Bailey of Behind the News and myself, Fran Luck of Joy of Resistance, for a Black History Month special on the Black women leaders of the civil rights movement.
[01:03:52.790 --> 01:04:01.970]  Find out what Gloria Richardson, Daisy Bates, Ella Baker, Diane Nash, and many others actually did that changed the course of history.
[01:04:02.230 --> 01:04:16.510]  We'll offer listeners three award-winning DVDs, Fwendeave's Story of Ella Baker, Standing on My Sister's Shoulders, and Reflections Unheard, Black Women in Civil Rights, plus an interview with activist scholar Carol Giordina on the meaning of leadership.
[01:04:16.810 --> 01:04:18.550]  That's Thursday, 10 a.m.
[01:04:18.650 --> 01:04:20.810]  to noon, February 26th.
[01:04:21.050 --> 01:04:24.970]  Fill in the missing pieces of the narrative and learn the whole story.
[01:04:27.630 --> 01:04:30.190]  And this is WBAI in New York.
[01:04:30.190 --> 01:04:34.790]  The program is Off the Hook, and we are on for another hour tonight.
[01:04:35.010 --> 01:04:36.370]  We're on until 9 o'clock.
[01:04:36.510 --> 01:04:41.750]  The Personal Computer Show is not on this week, but hopefully we'll be back next week, and hopefully we'll be back next week as well.
[01:04:41.990 --> 01:04:45.270]  And every Wednesday from this point on.
[01:04:45.470 --> 01:04:47.910]  We're joined tonight by Mike.
[01:04:48.350 --> 01:04:48.790]  Hi.
[01:04:48.890 --> 01:04:49.310]  Rob T.
[01:04:49.430 --> 01:04:49.930]  Firefly.
[01:04:50.190 --> 01:04:50.570]  Hello again.
[01:04:50.830 --> 01:04:51.370]  And Kyle.
[01:04:51.870 --> 01:04:52.790]  Hi, persons.
[01:04:53.170 --> 01:04:58.690]  And joining us on the phone is Master Archivist, Jason Scott.
[01:04:59.910 --> 01:05:00.550]  Hello.
[01:05:00.870 --> 01:05:01.270]  How you doing?
[01:05:01.510 --> 01:05:01.830]  Okay.
[01:05:01.830 --> 01:05:02.930]  Where are you this evening?
[01:05:03.690 --> 01:05:09.590]  I'm actually in San Francisco, in the great room of the Internet Archive.
[01:05:10.170 --> 01:05:13.530]  Which is where you're up to a whole lot of different projects, correct?
[01:05:14.250 --> 01:05:14.850]  Oh, yeah.
[01:05:14.950 --> 01:05:16.030]  That's got me, you know.
[01:05:16.150 --> 01:05:26.690]  When people go to the Internet Archive and they're downloading stuff, a lot of it's coming out of computers that are in this large, used to be a church room that has servers everywhere.
[01:05:26.690 --> 01:05:29.250]  And it's a very, very relaxing place.
[01:05:29.370 --> 01:05:32.030]  And it's the best place to take a phone call.
[01:05:32.570 --> 01:05:33.010]  Okay.
[01:05:33.770 --> 01:05:34.430]  Here's me.
[01:05:34.650 --> 01:05:35.670]  Well, you sound really good.
[01:05:35.690 --> 01:05:37.210]  And that's what matters on the radio.
[01:05:37.690 --> 01:05:38.670]  We have this story.
[01:05:38.810 --> 01:05:45.670]  The reason we have you on tonight is to talk about something that has just happened fairly recently.
[01:05:46.730 --> 01:05:54.610]  Google has gone and taken a big step, a big step in a direction that I think people weren't really expecting.
[01:05:55.450 --> 01:05:58.650]  As you may know, they own a service called Blogger.
[01:05:58.810 --> 01:06:08.990]  And what they did a couple of days ago was they just said, you know what, we're going to ban nude photos and video from all publicly accessible sites on the Blogger service.
[01:06:10.710 --> 01:06:22.050]  Now, what they basically said here, they're giving their users until March 23rd to delete what they call sexually explicit or graphic nude images from their sites.
[01:06:22.630 --> 01:06:32.390]  And if they don't do this, their sites will be switched to private mode to restrict access to the owner of the blog and those who have received a specific invitation to visit it.
[01:06:33.290 --> 01:06:41.150]  And effective March 23rd, Blogger will no longer allow most nude photos to be posted on anything other than a private site.
[01:06:41.290 --> 01:06:49.950]  The only exceptions will be for special circumstances such as nudity depicted in, quote, artistic, educational, documentary, or scientific contexts.
[01:06:50.170 --> 01:06:54.910]  And that's according to an explanation that can be seen on the Blogger website.
[01:06:56.070 --> 01:07:03.290]  Jason, this is a big step, a big step in a kind of a strange direction for Google, wouldn't you say?
[01:07:03.930 --> 01:07:09.430]  Well, so Google's always had this weird problem, which is that they're really, you know, they're at the top of the heap.
[01:07:10.790 --> 01:07:14.950]  They're based on all sides from all sorts of places and institutions.
[01:07:14.950 --> 01:07:26.550]  And when the metal, you know, when the metal hits metal, when the tire hits the road, they, sometimes they do some very impressive things and sometimes they really don't.
[01:07:27.050 --> 01:07:35.610]  And this particular one, you know, it's too easy to get wrapped up on the, quote, unquote, you know, obviousness of the logic.
[01:07:35.830 --> 01:07:40.930]  Oh, you know, maybe it's not good if they're sending out explicit photos.
[01:07:40.930 --> 01:07:43.130]  But that's not really what they just said there.
[01:07:43.130 --> 01:07:54.710]  In fact, it's got all of the earmarks of an overplayed hand done by a committee, which is someone goes, okay, we're going to get in trouble if we have these nude photos.
[01:07:54.850 --> 01:07:58.550]  Never mind, we've had blogs like this for over a decade on Blogger.
[01:07:59.370 --> 01:08:01.930]  So we're going to make them private.
[01:08:02.130 --> 01:08:07.190]  Now, the way you're going to find out that your blog is private is it will be private, right?
[01:08:07.470 --> 01:08:12.690]  There's no, like you'll wake up on March 24th and realize, oh, nobody can see my stuff anymore.
[01:08:13.130 --> 01:08:18.770]  And you're going to then possibly have exceptions.
[01:08:18.770 --> 01:08:20.450]  This is where they overplay the hand, right?
[01:08:20.690 --> 01:08:31.650]  So how do you explain artistic and, you know, some sort of, you know, meaning that kind of saves it from censorship?
[01:08:32.390 --> 01:08:39.430]  In other words, like, it's Google showing, once again, that they're not so great at content.
[01:08:39.430 --> 01:08:41.650]  They're good at finding content.
[01:08:42.090 --> 01:08:45.990]  But when they're in charge of the content, things get a little weird and off-shiltered.
[01:08:46.590 --> 01:08:48.530]  That's, you know, mostly what bothers me.
[01:08:48.910 --> 01:09:01.490]  I made noise about this yesterday because I was just so annoyed that they, instead of saying, we're going to move in this direction, they're like, we've moved in this direction except for where we're going to decide not to.
[01:09:02.170 --> 01:09:03.430]  Well, that's the thing.
[01:09:03.710 --> 01:09:10.450]  The fact that they're saying they're going to define artistic, educational, documentary, or scientific context.
[01:09:11.310 --> 01:09:19.370]  And when you have a corporation deciding what qualifies as artistic, I think you're going down a very bad road.
[01:09:19.790 --> 01:09:29.430]  No, you and I have been in many hallways that echo with very nice lawyers who immediately start asking shrill questions when they hear a statement like that out of a company.
[01:09:29.430 --> 01:09:32.130]  You know, like, who is this person?
[01:09:32.370 --> 01:09:33.370]  Who are these people?
[01:09:33.510 --> 01:09:34.330]  Is there a phone number?
[01:09:34.450 --> 01:09:36.030]  Is there an email address?
[01:09:36.210 --> 01:09:37.130]  Is there some standards?
[01:09:37.890 --> 01:09:41.510]  I'm the buzzman of Google on all matters of...
[01:09:41.510 --> 01:09:47.970]  Like, what about the fact that it's something that's acceptable in one country, not in the other?
[01:09:48.330 --> 01:09:49.250]  Is this only...
[01:09:49.250 --> 01:09:51.890]  You know, all it does is add all these questions.
[01:09:52.190 --> 01:09:59.410]  And it's only really offensive because here you have Google, you know, taking over a platform.
[01:10:01.050 --> 01:10:06.110]  And they take over the platform, they start pumping ads into it, i.e.
[01:10:06.110 --> 01:10:07.250]  they're making money off it.
[01:10:07.630 --> 01:10:15.270]  And then when it shoots them, and apparently it now shoots them, somebody says, well, I'm not comfortable where everywhere the ads are.
[01:10:15.430 --> 01:10:23.490]  And their response is to issue a one-month warning that there will be no warning and then sit there.
[01:10:23.730 --> 01:10:24.830]  You know, it's just...
[01:10:24.830 --> 01:10:36.290]  It's a sign of a company that, like, again, when they misstep, everyone feels it because, you know, there's many millions of different kinds of blogger...
[01:10:36.290 --> 01:10:39.190]  blogs out there in their collection.
[01:10:39.810 --> 01:10:43.850]  And today, this year, it's their concerns about explicit photos.
[01:10:44.410 --> 01:10:45.610]  What's next?
[01:10:45.890 --> 01:10:47.590]  Extreme political speech?
[01:10:49.270 --> 01:10:52.530]  misuse of a historic figure?
[01:10:53.110 --> 01:10:56.010]  A statement of editorial commentary?
[01:10:56.310 --> 01:10:57.250]  You know, I mean, it's...
[01:10:57.250 --> 01:10:58.010]  What's next?
[01:10:58.070 --> 01:11:03.490]  And it'll just be random, apparently, and decided upon by a shadowy unknown group.
[01:11:03.650 --> 01:11:09.050]  It's just sad because, you know, there was a time when we all thought...
[01:11:09.050 --> 01:11:17.650]  We did have that little honeymoon period when we thought Google was going to be, like, always have kind of an interesting solution that made things better.
[01:11:18.190 --> 01:11:21.270]  You know, the era of, oh my God, they have cars that drive themselves.
[01:11:22.690 --> 01:11:26.570]  And I think we've long, long left that period.
[01:11:27.430 --> 01:11:30.850]  Well, we can't deny that the site belongs to them.
[01:11:30.990 --> 01:11:32.530]  They can run it as they choose.
[01:11:33.290 --> 01:11:37.890]  And perhaps some alternative site will pop up in its place.
[01:11:38.070 --> 01:11:39.990]  Is that the thinking in the community now?
[01:11:40.630 --> 01:11:56.710]  Well, I mean, I think that's what you're going to get is, you know, it's not tough to run your own site, but you should tell somebody, look, for a, you know, for free or for a pittance, we'll do all that work for you.
[01:11:57.570 --> 01:11:58.790]  It's very alluring.
[01:11:58.970 --> 01:12:00.810]  It sounds, you know, you don't have to think about that.
[01:12:00.870 --> 01:12:02.850]  You just have to upload the thing you wrote.
[01:12:03.030 --> 01:12:09.310]  But the downside is basically this, is one day the landlord comes up with a decision.
[01:12:09.670 --> 01:12:18.430]  And, you know, WordPress, just opening up a directory somewhere and throwing some HTML in it or writing some things.
[01:12:18.610 --> 01:12:31.550]  I mean, we used to not have a problem with, you know, we didn't always prefer to have all of our, quote-unquote, user-generated content presented to us in one of six different formats.
[01:12:31.970 --> 01:12:38.170]  You know, Twitter, Facebook, blogger, and, you know, a WordPress blog and so on.
[01:12:38.170 --> 01:12:46.610]  And, you know, we used to, like, wander around and see some pretty crazy byways and highways and none of that technology's gone away.
[01:12:46.810 --> 01:12:56.730]  And if you've got something and you want to be sure that it's going to stick around and doesn't randomly fall under a made-up standard, there are so many easy...
[01:12:56.730 --> 01:12:59.890]  I mean, that's basically the spirit of what you do, right?
[01:13:00.010 --> 01:13:04.750]  What you guys do, which is, you know, instructions are everywhere.
[01:13:05.490 --> 01:13:11.090]  Tinker a little bit and you'll have a website that doesn't randomly wake up on the wrong side of the Google.
[01:13:12.450 --> 01:13:26.510]  Jason, yesterday, Reddit came out with a policy change saying that they were going to remove photos, videos, and any kind of link with explicit content if the person in the image has not given permission for it to be posted.
[01:13:26.930 --> 01:13:31.430]  Now, do you think that is a more reasonable approach, the way Reddit has gone about this?
[01:13:32.130 --> 01:13:43.590]  Well, Reddit's always had this issue of how do they balance extreme speech and regular speech and corporate speech in their environment?
[01:13:43.950 --> 01:13:55.590]  And nobody who is on Reddit, you know, even if they're in a subreddit, feels like it's their site, like it's just so clearly, you know, their community.
[01:13:56.400 --> 01:14:02.630]  And Reddit is a very corporate-owned entity, like completely.
[01:14:02.950 --> 01:14:06.210]  So, you know, you can't pretend that this is a bunch of people hanging around.
[01:14:06.850 --> 01:14:14.230]  And I feel like if Reddit missteps, that community can and will choose to leave, right?
[01:14:14.330 --> 01:14:16.290]  They'll say, we're not comfortable with you, goodbye.
[01:14:16.670 --> 01:14:19.230]  You know, they're kind of doing it under that.
[01:14:19.570 --> 01:14:22.550]  There's no sense of this is my world or this is my place.
[01:14:23.130 --> 01:14:44.270]  While I'm sure Reddit is going through, you know, they'll make, you know, this is what you get for being the center of the chatting universe, I feel like, you know, at least there, they're saying, we don't want, I mean, it's always going to be an ugly situation when any hosting body says,
[01:14:44.470 --> 01:14:50.070]  this used to be okay, and we enjoyed it, and we did it, and now we don't want it.
[01:14:50.370 --> 01:14:53.350]  Like, that's always going to be a problem.
[01:14:54.490 --> 01:14:57.130]  And the question is, how do you handle it?
[01:14:57.210 --> 01:15:00.070]  Do you say, look, we're moving forward and we're changing it?
[01:15:00.870 --> 01:15:10.190]  Or, in this particular case, we're going to delete it, but not really delete it, and we're going to have a standard, but we promise you it's a fair standard.
[01:15:10.750 --> 01:15:16.370]  You know, I'm sure right now the Reddits are blowing up with comments of like, okay, what does that count as?
[01:15:16.730 --> 01:15:19.810]  And Reddit will have to make a statement and they'll communicate with people.
[01:15:19.950 --> 01:15:21.050]  It's not just some,
[01:15:29.450 --> 01:15:33.430]  any of this, but I understand that that's much more than the Google thing.
[01:15:33.610 --> 01:15:33.970]  How about that?
[01:15:34.290 --> 01:15:41.530]  Well, and Reddit's in a very sort of specific position regarding this because ostensibly they're not the ones hosting images or video or what have you.
[01:15:41.670 --> 01:15:43.490]  They've always been about text and links.
[01:15:43.630 --> 01:15:46.810]  You're linking to stuff that's elsewhere on the net, not on Reddit servers themselves.
[01:15:47.050 --> 01:15:56.170]  So they're policing what you can link to on other sites through them, which is one whole section of debate entirely.
[01:15:56.170 --> 01:16:00.530]  with something like Google when you're uploading the photos to their server and they're displaying it for you.
[01:16:01.310 --> 01:16:07.070]  One can argue that, okay, they have the right because it's their machinery to decide what they do or don't host.
[01:16:07.210 --> 01:16:20.370]  But the real crux of the matter is that whenever you do anything on a system that's not under your direct control, whether it's on a service like Blogger or a service like Reddit or a service like Twitter or Facebook or what have you, you're not the one in control of it.
[01:16:20.490 --> 01:16:30.790]  You don't get to make the terms and your stuff is always sort of at risk of the people who hold the keys saying, yeah, we don't want that anymore.
[01:16:31.590 --> 01:16:35.370]  And I think also like Reddit, the distinction there you're making is really a good one.
[01:16:35.570 --> 01:16:42.890]  Well, first of all, I mean, things that Reddit does policy-wise will not go uncommented by the very nature of that site.
[01:16:43.150 --> 01:16:59.850]  But also, I think that the whole secret committee thing, that sort of, it sort of feels corporate, sort of feels like cold and not really like the cool, friendly, Google that was like coming up with wacky solutions.
[01:17:00.650 --> 01:17:09.050]  And I just wonder, is this maybe that Google has to be more kid-friendly because they have aging Googlers?
[01:17:09.310 --> 01:17:12.310]  I mean, they have to replenish their workforce and everything.
[01:17:12.550 --> 01:17:15.630]  So it's just like the tobacco companies and that sort of thing.
[01:17:16.050 --> 01:17:18.150]  It really does just like the tobacco companies.
[01:17:18.430 --> 01:17:18.910]  It's the same thing.
[01:17:19.090 --> 01:17:21.950]  They're trying to, they're watering down blogger.
[01:17:22.150 --> 01:17:23.670]  I swear, no, that's what's happening.
[01:17:23.670 --> 01:17:25.690]  Jason, any thoughts on that?
[01:17:26.390 --> 01:17:30.230]  That was a crazy leap, but everyone's allowed a crazy leap.
[01:17:30.830 --> 01:17:36.730]  To me, it's more that Google, at some point, and I mean, we saw this years ago, right?
[01:17:36.870 --> 01:17:52.910]  At some point, Google was less about engineers and coming up with weird things and trying things out and upending things and became more more about just being incested by salesmen and monetizing things.
[01:17:53.630 --> 01:18:05.290]  And everything they've moved forward going, you know, into a lot of places has been to just make things easier to sell, make things easier to buy.
[01:18:05.450 --> 01:18:11.250]  That's the same thing where they had the real names policy that was a disaster on Google Plus.
[01:18:11.710 --> 01:18:23.130]  You know, just this idea of let's make it all a nice, quiet, you know, little, dependable set of, you know, quantifiable audience.
[01:18:23.790 --> 01:18:28.630]  I was going to say that there's three steps to being a part of a homeowner's association.
[01:18:28.830 --> 01:18:31.030]  Step one, wow, this neighborhood is really nice.
[01:18:32.490 --> 01:18:33.590]  Step two, what?
[01:18:33.730 --> 01:18:34.510]  Sign all this stuff?
[01:18:34.630 --> 01:18:35.150]  You betcha.
[01:18:35.430 --> 01:18:37.890]  Step three, what do you mean my door can't be purple?
[01:18:39.410 --> 01:18:47.490]  And that's what you end up with, is that it's like, oh, yeah, you know, it's so pleasant and everything, until you run up against the rules.
[01:18:47.810 --> 01:19:00.050]  And so here's a case where, you know, there's people out there who have any number of reasons for having something that another group of people, you know, it's so easy to get wrapped up in pornography, let's not even go there.
[01:19:00.390 --> 01:19:17.390]  There's so many times that somebody speaks out in a way that makes other people uncomfortable, whether it's talking about people in their lives or experiences of trauma that they've experienced, you know, all of these different parts of being human that get spoken about,
[01:19:17.550 --> 01:19:17.650]  right?
[01:19:18.050 --> 01:19:30.010]  And at some point, the problem is, how do you present your position in the same general forum area or the same general platforms as other people?
[01:19:30.010 --> 01:19:35.850]  and we've spent many, many, many, many centuries with this problem.
[01:19:36.010 --> 01:19:40.510]  How do you have adult themed books next to other books?
[01:19:40.770 --> 01:19:50.350]  How do you have politically charged writing that people want next to the children's section?
[01:19:50.610 --> 01:19:52.830]  Wait, there's all these solutions.
[01:19:52.830 --> 01:20:06.170]  Well, what Google is doing here is saying, well, let's just wipe out a set that we, that makes our, let's be honest here, our advertisers and customers uncomfortable.
[01:20:06.830 --> 01:20:12.910]  So, Jason, I want to take issue with something you said a little earlier because it's so impractical for most people.
[01:20:13.350 --> 01:20:21.710]  Like, to say, you know, just stick your files in a directory and run your own server is, like, not useful advice for normal people.
[01:20:22.070 --> 01:20:25.070]  Like, I know how to do that and I don't have time for that.
[01:20:26.890 --> 01:20:30.370]  normal people don't know how to do that in the first place and don't have time to learn.
[01:20:31.770 --> 01:20:33.430]  And running your own web server is hard.
[01:20:33.610 --> 01:20:35.810]  You can't just, like, stick files in a directory.
[01:20:35.970 --> 01:20:37.470]  You have to keep updating it.
[01:20:37.510 --> 01:20:39.810]  Who has time to update their web server all the time?
[01:20:40.090 --> 01:20:44.210]  And because when you don't, then a manual comes on the air and blames you when you get broken into.
[01:20:45.210 --> 01:20:46.110]  It's a lot of work.
[01:20:46.130 --> 01:20:57.250]  So, what is the practical advice for people who don't have time to run their own web server but want to put stuff on the internet want to create and want other people to see their stuff without corporate masters?
[01:20:57.430 --> 01:20:58.190]  Is it even possible?
[01:20:59.150 --> 01:20:59.470]  Oh, nope.
[01:20:59.590 --> 01:21:00.130]  There you go.
[01:21:00.450 --> 01:21:02.030]  You gotta do the right solution.
[01:21:02.270 --> 01:21:04.690]  The solution for you is don't worry.
[01:21:05.010 --> 01:21:18.830]  There's an anesthetized, sanitized, utterly safe, easy drag-and-drop set of platforms in which you can take things that you talk about assuming they're okay for reasons we don't know and put them on there forever.
[01:21:19.130 --> 01:21:20.350]  And that's how we got Facebook.
[01:21:20.690 --> 01:21:36.010]  And that's how you end up with any kind of platform where it's like, okay, I'll do this, I'll drop it down, I saw a bird today, the bird was pretty, hang in there, Monday was just another day, wait till Friday, and we'll all be happy.
[01:21:36.210 --> 01:21:37.710]  I mean, that's basically what you get there.
[01:21:37.910 --> 01:21:43.770]  And as long as you have it where you let a company use that platform for you, you're always going to have the same thing.
[01:21:43.950 --> 01:21:50.750]  And that's what we've gotten now with Google, deciding that there's a segment of the community that doesn't quite work out for it.
[01:21:50.750 --> 01:21:54.630]  But Jason, just don't do it with a big company is not practical advice.
[01:21:54.950 --> 01:21:55.950]  Like, I can do that.
[01:21:56.930 --> 01:22:02.090]  Many of the people in this room can do that, many of our listeners can do that, but most of them can't, so what's the advice?
[01:22:02.170 --> 01:22:03.210]  People should contact you then.
[01:22:03.410 --> 01:22:04.090]  I don't have time.
[01:22:04.510 --> 01:22:14.570]  And if I did have time, the only way I could possibly have time would be to do this professionally and run it as a service and then I would be a corporation and I wouldn't be any better at it than anyone else.
[01:22:15.210 --> 01:22:20.030]  I think we get right here into a faith-based discussion because I fundamentally believe people can do it.
[01:22:20.610 --> 01:22:21.530]  I just do.
[01:22:21.950 --> 01:22:23.530]  Well, there are people who can do it.
[01:22:23.570 --> 01:22:26.790]  Not everybody can do it, but there are people who can do it.
[01:22:26.870 --> 01:22:31.150]  Now, will those people do it for other people without changing the rules?
[01:22:31.150 --> 01:22:34.050]  Is it an inevitability that the rules will get changed at some point?
[01:22:35.070 --> 01:22:36.110]  That is a good question.
[01:22:36.270 --> 01:22:37.110]  And I also don't know.
[01:22:37.270 --> 01:22:44.670]  I mean, when do you, you know, if we pull it back to the interesting, the closest example might be something like, say, a hackerspace, right?
[01:22:45.810 --> 01:22:49.710]  Where a hackerspace provides services to, the community.
[01:22:50.650 --> 01:22:54.310]  You know, anything from, come on in, we'll help you try to figure out what's wrong with your computer.
[01:22:54.450 --> 01:22:55.970]  Can't promise anything, but we'll try it.
[01:22:56.930 --> 01:23:01.130]  Up through to, like, we'll, everyone come in and we'll try to learn new language together.
[01:23:01.490 --> 01:23:19.370]  So, reach out, and for the people who want to do that, again, you know, it's a question of, what segment is people, if we truly have people who feel uncomfortable, unwanted, and disenfranchised from the world, whether it's in the way they speak, or where they live,
[01:23:19.410 --> 01:23:28.890]  whatever, it is incumbent upon another group to reach out to these people and make themselves available, and we do it.
[01:23:28.930 --> 01:23:29.890]  We do it every day.
[01:23:30.190 --> 01:23:31.250]  We do it every day.
[01:23:31.350 --> 01:23:34.350]  We say you can't afford to eat, we'll help you eat.
[01:23:34.450 --> 01:23:40.690]  You can't afford to do a website, can't afford to get your word out, come to us and we'll do our best to get your word out.
[01:23:40.770 --> 01:23:48.270]  Now, maybe you're saying what you're up to and you have to say it to someone who dropped your email into a page.
[01:23:48.270 --> 01:23:49.310]  We've seen this before.
[01:23:49.610 --> 01:23:53.150]  Or you, like, leave a phone message for somebody and you type it.
[01:23:53.190 --> 01:23:53.830]  It can be done.
[01:23:53.930 --> 01:23:56.290]  I have to have that thing in humanity.
[01:23:56.290 --> 01:23:56.830]  I know.
[01:23:57.210 --> 01:24:05.630]  Maybe it sounds a little loosey idea, but seriously, I think things have got me easier, technically.
[01:24:06.070 --> 01:24:09.350]  Nobody has to really learn DNS like they used to.
[01:24:09.530 --> 01:24:15.310]  You didn't have to worry about whether or not your connection was going to get saturated at 56K.
[01:24:15.870 --> 01:24:17.850]  Like, we're in so much better shape now.
[01:24:18.330 --> 01:24:33.250]  The trouble with this sort of business model that we've got now, that we've let become the prevailing way of doing things in terms of social networks and blogging and stuff, has been since, you know, from a very young age now, people are sort of comfortable with the whole process of,
[01:24:33.390 --> 01:24:34.550]  okay, you want to put something out there?
[01:24:34.670 --> 01:24:35.930]  There are these services that exist.
[01:24:36.330 --> 01:24:38.670]  So you just use the service and you do it.
[01:24:38.670 --> 01:24:45.990]  And these services that exist have evolved this free business model, quote-unquote free, where they support themselves with advertising.
[01:24:46.130 --> 01:24:54.410]  And then they find themselves at the mercy of their advertisers, who are their real customers, where their users are the product being sold to the advertisers.
[01:24:54.410 --> 01:24:57.630]  Can I just butt in here and say that's an amazing parallel to WBAI?
[01:24:57.710 --> 01:25:02.390]  Because if we had advertisers, we'd probably be told by now to shut up and stop talking about this.
[01:25:02.730 --> 01:25:09.950]  Yet another reason, listeners, 212-209-2950, call in, support this place, because we can have a discussion because we don't have advertisers.
[01:25:10.110 --> 01:25:10.390]  Absolutely.
[01:25:10.550 --> 01:25:10.970]  Sorry to interrupt.
[01:25:10.970 --> 01:25:20.310]  We ended up, like at BAI, we ended up with this weird business model that nobody who knows anything about the radio business would think would work, but we've managed to make it work because enough people believe in it.
[01:25:20.410 --> 01:25:23.470]  Can we do something like that with the blogging business model now?
[01:25:23.610 --> 01:25:32.010]  Can we come up with some sort of ethical blogging entity who will let people do what they want and not be at the mercy of advertisers?
[01:25:32.350 --> 01:25:33.530]  Can this happen?
[01:25:34.330 --> 01:25:52.210]  We are... we're not completely shut down on the net neutrality thing, and I think that we're still at a point where there are people out there who, if this is a need, if this is truly a need, where people feel that they've been disenfranchised and controlled and that things they want to say are not allowed anymore,
[01:25:52.670 --> 01:26:00.450]  that there's somebody who will help them get their word out to an audience and provide a way for them to do it.
[01:26:00.450 --> 01:26:02.690]  Do things bloat out and die?
[01:26:02.890 --> 01:26:03.050]  Yes.
[01:26:03.190 --> 01:26:10.110]  But the really magical nature of the net is how relatively easy it is to set up another platform for people.
[01:26:10.730 --> 01:26:22.570]  And if it's done with a set of ethics in terms of helping people from the start be able to get their stuff out as easily as they dump it back in again, I mean, I just have to have... I have to hold that out, man.
[01:26:22.590 --> 01:26:24.270]  I got to be able to face another sunrise.
[01:26:24.810 --> 01:26:26.030]  I mean, it's just like that.
[01:26:26.790 --> 01:26:44.050]  What we're doing here when we're talking about the Google Blogger thing is just showing, you know, a story that's played before, but it's just disappointingly ham-fisted, poorly constructed, vaguely shocking, and annoying that Google would go about it this way.
[01:26:44.050 --> 01:27:00.150]  They found a way to make it real, like, if they'd said, oh, if we accept that there will be photos or images or imagery that some people don't want to see, that is the very, very nature of a technical problem.
[01:27:00.790 --> 01:27:16.870]  And Google could have come up with any of a number of solutions, but to just spontaneously go to blogs that were perfectly fine for a decade or more, because Blogger predates Google's acquisition, and then say, we're just shutting you off in about 30 days.
[01:27:16.890 --> 01:27:20.110]  And we're doing it in a way that we're not technically deleting you.
[01:27:20.110 --> 01:27:22.190]  So, it's just the worst.
[01:27:22.650 --> 01:27:29.690]  And I'm just really disappointed in this company that used to be a real leader in issues of free speech and access.
[01:27:30.350 --> 01:27:32.710]  You know, it's just one of those...
[01:27:33.430 --> 01:27:36.330]  It's just a sign, you know, a sad sign.
[01:27:36.830 --> 01:27:46.470]  Jason, you mentioned the Google Plus incident where users were told they had to use their real names, leading to the whole NIMWAR thing.
[01:27:46.470 --> 01:27:49.770]  And I think that was reversed after public outcry.
[01:27:50.050 --> 01:27:52.550]  Has there been public outcry about this?
[01:27:52.610 --> 01:27:53.890]  And do you think this might be reversed?
[01:27:54.770 --> 01:27:55.950]  I think this is...
[01:27:55.950 --> 01:27:57.290]  Okay, so...
[01:27:59.810 --> 01:28:05.370]  Certainly, you know, people like Off The Hook and various blogs are mentioning this now.
[01:28:05.510 --> 01:28:07.550]  I mean, this thing really hit yesterday.
[01:28:08.310 --> 01:28:20.930]  Google has plenty of time to backtrack, to clarify, to apologize, to come up with something else, you know, and claim that that was the idea all along, and we're sorry about it.
[01:28:21.150 --> 01:28:22.450]  I hope that happens.
[01:28:22.450 --> 01:28:29.950]  I hope that they're aimed into coming up with a solution that isn't both intersective and insulting.
[01:28:31.370 --> 01:28:34.190]  And I'm sure they can do it once they recognize it's a problem.
[01:28:34.190 --> 01:28:38.670]  It's just that they used to be a lot more perceptive that this was going to be a problem.
[01:28:38.670 --> 01:28:43.430]  Yeah, it does seem kind of as if they're not engaged with the users.
[01:28:43.430 --> 01:28:47.470]  They're just coming up with a policy and saying, this is how it is, and deal with it.
[01:28:48.350 --> 01:28:48.870]  Right.
[01:28:49.070 --> 01:29:04.790]  I mean, certainly, you know, since we brought up Reddit, Reddit has had, you know, cases in the past where they've hit the edge cases that come when you have millions of people and all sorts of statements and all sorts of potential for disagreement or despair.
[01:29:04.790 --> 01:29:16.470]  And in general, you've at least heard statements from the people who run Reddit, you've heard commentary, they've engaged with people, questions, you know.
[01:29:16.670 --> 01:29:24.750]  It feels like they're going, look, we have this terrible thing, let's work together and at least talk about it so everyone understands where we're going.
[01:29:25.270 --> 01:29:27.190]  This felt like they were...
[01:29:27.190 --> 01:29:32.310]  They must have thought they were claiming that they were going to change the color scheme of the menu bar.
[01:29:32.710 --> 01:29:34.430]  And it's not that.
[01:29:34.430 --> 01:29:40.170]  It's a deep, almost fundamental nature of a publishing platform.
[01:29:41.250 --> 01:29:50.450]  Jason, you mentioned that there were some alternative solutions that were possible for Google to pursue to get whatever objective they're after.
[01:29:50.710 --> 01:29:52.170]  Any examples of those?
[01:29:53.070 --> 01:29:59.010]  Okay, so just even something as simple as, say, WordPress, right?
[01:29:59.230 --> 01:30:08.770]  I mean, I'm not 100% going to endorse WordPress as a platform, but they are, for instance, another publishing platform.
[01:30:09.050 --> 01:30:15.210]  And fundamentally, from the ground up, WordPress has made it that stuff that comes in can't go out.
[01:30:15.610 --> 01:30:21.350]  That is to say, you can say, please wrap all my stuff up, put it into a format, I'd like to bring it to somewhere else.
[01:30:23.050 --> 01:30:32.810]  I did not come on with a good list of alternatives, but there are alternatives, both in software, platforms, locations.
[01:30:33.230 --> 01:30:40.530]  If you're not committed to having a .com be at the middle of the address of your blog, then you have a lot of options.
[01:30:41.070 --> 01:30:48.910]  One of the nice things up in that is how worldwide it is and how, honestly, it's about the same experience if you pull it from a different country.
[01:30:48.910 --> 01:30:50.890]  So there's ways to leverage that.
[01:30:51.790 --> 01:31:06.750]  If you feel, right, the most important thing is a person who publishes online doesn't feel afraid of what they're publishing from their own platform.
[01:31:06.990 --> 01:31:24.990]  They might be worried about repercussions or they'll know that they've made people angry at them, you know, the standard aspects, but to feel like when you put your data somewhere that the service suddenly spontaneously changes its formats overnight, you know,
[01:31:25.050 --> 01:31:26.610]  that's the rinky-dinkness of it.
[01:31:26.730 --> 01:31:34.950]  And again, we've seen this from little, you know, little ISPs or something like that, but it's just really sad that it's Google.
[01:31:35.230 --> 01:31:47.210]  Jason, what would you say to a parent out there who is concerned about their child accessing inappropriate material and saying this is a good move from Google to do this to protect the children?
[01:31:48.730 --> 01:31:58.070]  So, you know, fundamentally, the greatest mistakes are often made with the best of intentions, right?
[01:31:58.070 --> 01:32:15.650]  So, if you perceive a problem that the Internet has things you don't want your kids to see, there are ways to interact with the Internet and your child that get away from that.
[01:32:15.650 --> 01:32:36.190]  For instance, being with them when they browse, raising them to look at the Internet as another place in which sometimes there's things you don't want to see, sometimes there's things that are strange and there's safe places and domains they can browse that are full of the things that they love.
[01:32:37.130 --> 01:32:49.270]  And that's like letting a kid out into the street, go up and down it to play, exposes them to all sorts of dangers, and you as a parent do everything you can to mitigate those dangers.
[01:32:51.910 --> 01:32:52.490]  Uh-oh.
[01:32:53.070 --> 01:32:55.150]  I think one of those dangers got to Jason.
[01:32:56.130 --> 01:32:57.730]  Wow, just clicked right off there.
[01:32:58.330 --> 01:32:59.870]  I'm going to try and call him back.
[01:33:00.910 --> 01:33:04.030]  Are you guys going to be okay discussing this on your own for a few minutes?
[01:33:04.310 --> 01:33:05.110]  We'll do our best.
[01:33:05.190 --> 01:33:05.410]  All right.
[01:33:05.610 --> 01:33:11.370]  I just want to point out that we were talking before about, you know, if we were not on here, we would probably have commercial sponsors.
[01:33:11.370 --> 01:33:18.370]  And the commercial sponsors, if you listen to podcasts, if you listen to NPR, which is basically commercial these days, it's full of ads.
[01:33:18.470 --> 01:33:22.670]  I've been using the skip 30 seconds button on my podcast player.
[01:33:22.850 --> 01:33:34.450]  But the ads I'm skipping are for precisely the type of commercial hosting spaces that, not Google itself, but their competitors, that we criticize here tonight on this program.
[01:33:34.450 --> 01:33:41.570]  So if you call 212-209-2950, you are voting for us to be able to continue to criticize those entities.
[01:33:41.790 --> 01:33:50.250]  Because if we're not on this program, if we're not on this station, sorry, if we're doing this type of work somewhere else, we will be sponsored by those people.
[01:33:50.270 --> 01:33:54.650]  And we will not be able to criticize them in the way that we do that Jason did tonight.
[01:33:55.430 --> 01:33:57.560]  So give us a call, 212-209-2950.
[01:33:58.190 --> 01:34:00.670]  And keep us here on WBAI.
[01:34:00.950 --> 01:34:02.130]  Show your support, please.
[01:34:02.310 --> 01:34:02.530]  Thanks.
[01:34:03.170 --> 01:34:03.790]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:34:03.790 --> 01:34:12.770]  When you're doing your part to keep us supported, to keep the station going, to keep the show going, you are becoming the people that we're answerable to.
[01:34:12.930 --> 01:34:15.190]  We are answerable directly to our audience, no one else.
[01:34:15.750 --> 01:34:22.990]  Nobody is going to make us tell you what brand of beverages to drink or what sort of over-the-counter drugs to swallow.
[01:34:23.070 --> 01:34:29.370]  We're just here to do the best show we can for our audience, and that's you.
[01:34:29.370 --> 01:34:45.270]  So if you call 212-209-2950 or if you go to give the numeral to WBAI.org, you are taking part in the only process there is to gain a voice in what goes on here, to show your support one way or the other, and tell the management of the station that, yes,
[01:34:45.350 --> 01:34:46.590]  you appreciate our presence here.
[01:34:46.590 --> 01:34:51.790]  Yes, you appreciate the station's presence on the airwaves, and you think it's worth continuing.
[01:34:51.790 --> 01:35:10.830]  And as much as we may or may not ever see a business model like this that can be supported for something like a blogging platform or anything else, this is what we can do to keep this business model working as it has for decades, for untold decades, where it really shouldn't have.
[01:35:10.930 --> 01:35:20.330]  This station should not exist, and it's a heck of a thing to say on the airwaves of this station, but by all rights and by all logic, this station should not exist, but it does, and that's awesome.
[01:35:20.830 --> 01:35:22.950]  Well, I've tried reaching Jason a few times now.
[01:35:23.030 --> 01:35:25.850]  I keep getting voicemails, so I'm not sure what's going on out there in California.
[01:35:26.490 --> 01:35:30.510]  But I think we discuss this topic as much as we can.
[01:35:31.150 --> 01:35:36.350]  Internet Archive, which is where Jason Scott works, is an awesome site, awesome project.
[01:35:36.350 --> 01:35:39.230]  I encourage people to go out there and check it out.
[01:35:39.350 --> 01:35:40.030]  Archive.org.
[01:35:40.090 --> 01:35:40.930]  Archive.org, yes.
[01:35:41.010 --> 01:35:41.730]  I forgot the URL.
[01:35:42.430 --> 01:35:43.050]  Kyle, you had something?
[01:35:44.270 --> 01:35:50.690]  Just following along with what Jason was saying, I agree with that sentiment that we should be as vigilant and diligent.
[01:35:51.810 --> 01:36:07.090]  Now, I'm not a parent myself, but I think the skill that we would use in, like he said, a street scenario, where you would be looking out for all kinds of things, that has to carry through in other aspects, especially online.
[01:36:07.090 --> 01:36:13.030]  And I think that's important discussion and growth that young people have to go through.
[01:36:13.030 --> 01:36:26.370]  And I think parents shouldn't sort of ignore the responsibility there because you are raising people that have grown up with this resource and will continue to have it in their lives.
[01:36:26.670 --> 01:36:28.970]  And just a brief point of information about the Google case.
[01:36:29.290 --> 01:36:36.730]  The existing rule for sort of adult material on blogger blogs used to just be that there's a button that says, yes, I want to see adult content.
[01:36:36.850 --> 01:36:39.210]  And you click through that before you were granted access to it.
[01:36:39.210 --> 01:36:43.030]  So this wasn't a matter of like people accidentally happening upon something they didn't want to see.
[01:36:43.170 --> 01:36:43.990]  It was intentional.
[01:36:44.230 --> 01:36:47.290]  How was the website then categorized as adult content?
[01:36:47.450 --> 01:36:49.070]  Was that up to the person who put it up there?
[01:36:49.130 --> 01:36:50.950]  I believe that would be up to the person who put it up there.
[01:36:51.050 --> 01:36:55.570]  But it was probably somewhere in Google's terms of service where if you have that material, you mark it as such and everything's cool.
[01:36:55.650 --> 01:36:58.650]  And if you don't, you would lose your account or it just wouldn't be available.
[01:36:58.890 --> 01:36:59.310]  I don't know.
[01:36:59.350 --> 01:37:03.630]  It sounds like it should be doable with existing technology and not having to cut everybody off.
[01:37:04.110 --> 01:37:06.470]  But no doubt we'll be following this in weeks to come.
[01:37:06.470 --> 01:37:08.910]  And we'll update folks as we learn more.
[01:37:09.130 --> 01:37:12.270]  Again, phone number 212-209-2950.
[01:37:12.270 --> 01:37:20.470]  We're looking to get lots and lots and lots of people calling in tonight to pledge support to the radio station and show that Off the Hook is valuable to them.
[01:37:20.470 --> 01:37:22.730]  We're here in an expanded format tonight.
[01:37:23.210 --> 01:37:25.610]  And we don't know what's going to happen next week or the week after.
[01:37:25.730 --> 01:37:26.470]  But I can tell you this.
[01:37:26.590 --> 01:37:33.930]  If a lot of people call that number and pledge any amount, it will speak volumes as to our future here at WBAI.
[01:37:34.030 --> 01:37:36.830]  212-209-2950.
[01:37:36.850 --> 01:37:41.070]  Please call before 9 o'clock because that is when we're done here.
[01:37:41.370 --> 01:37:47.610]  And your voice will count as somebody who stepped up when we were in crisis mode.
[01:37:47.810 --> 01:37:49.730]  212-209-2950.
[01:37:49.730 --> 01:37:52.990]  Remember, this time, it's just the radio station you're pledging for.
[01:37:52.990 --> 01:38:02.970]  So pledge whatever you can afford for that massive premium of 99.5 FM or WBAI.org, however you listen to the radio station.
[01:38:03.230 --> 01:38:03.770]  All right.
[01:38:03.830 --> 01:38:06.230]  We're going to listen to phone calls in just a little bit.
[01:38:06.350 --> 01:38:09.230]  But we haven't talked about ISIL yet.
[01:38:09.230 --> 01:38:13.790]  And I feel that it's incumbent upon us to panic a little bit about them.
[01:38:13.950 --> 01:38:15.090]  I call them ISIL.
[01:38:15.410 --> 01:38:17.010]  I know that's what Obama calls them.
[01:38:17.090 --> 01:38:18.210]  That's what the Europeans call them.
[01:38:18.330 --> 01:38:20.330]  I know Fox News likes to call them ISIS.
[01:38:20.330 --> 01:38:24.490]  ISIS, but they've distinctly said, do not call us ISIS.
[01:38:24.530 --> 01:38:25.390]  That's not our name anymore.
[01:38:25.390 --> 01:38:26.670]  We changed our name to ISIL.
[01:38:26.930 --> 01:38:27.930]  There was a memo and everything.
[01:38:28.290 --> 01:38:31.630]  So I think it's only right to call them by the name that they...
[01:38:31.630 --> 01:38:32.650]  Well, actually, they didn't say ISIL.
[01:38:32.790 --> 01:38:33.990]  They say call us the Islamic State.
[01:38:34.090 --> 01:38:37.630]  But then that gets a little confusing, too, because then they sound legitimate.
[01:38:37.830 --> 01:38:39.610]  And I don't think we want that.
[01:38:39.790 --> 01:38:52.930]  But anyway, Islamic State's latest target in their hacking war on the West, according to this story in the Daily Mail, Their latest target is a semi-professional non-league football club with crowds of about 100.
[01:38:53.730 --> 01:39:04.190]  Yeah, the Jihadi hackers have targeted a part-time football team's official Twitter account in a failed attempt to promote Islamic State.
[01:39:04.570 --> 01:39:15.110]  Staff at Haybridge Swifts in Essex, which has, like I said, around 100 fans for home games, have concluded extremist cyber attackers had mistaken it for a Premier League team.
[01:39:15.110 --> 01:39:28.590]  The club, which is currently 18th in Ryman League Division I North, which is the eighth tier of English football, wow, was stunned when the black flag of ISIS appeared on their official Twitter account last night.
[01:39:29.050 --> 01:39:38.950]  The propaganda stunt flopped as the post received just six retweets due to the same professional club's lower league status.
[01:39:39.190 --> 01:39:41.050]  Well, that's said on a number of levels.
[01:39:41.050 --> 01:39:42.650]  It really is.
[01:39:42.850 --> 01:39:50.130]  And let's hope that maybe they can move up in the league and get more retweets when a terrorist group takes over their account in the future.
[01:39:50.510 --> 01:39:58.670]  It sounds like this football team did about the second shoddiest investigation into a cyber thing that I've heard about today.
[01:39:58.870 --> 01:40:00.210]  Well, I don't think they care.
[01:40:00.430 --> 01:40:04.230]  I think they're just focusing on winning the next game and maybe getting out of the eighth tier.
[01:40:05.250 --> 01:40:10.810]  I mean, it's totally acceptable for a football club to do a shoddy investigation in a circumstance like this.
[01:40:10.910 --> 01:40:15.230]  I'm just saying it's, you know, they're not number one even in that, alas.
[01:40:16.170 --> 01:40:18.770]  Well, actually, this might be Jason calling in.
[01:40:18.830 --> 01:40:19.830]  Can you guys talk for a second?
[01:40:20.730 --> 01:40:22.310]  I can certainly try.
[01:40:23.710 --> 01:40:24.590]  Yeah, supposedly.
[01:40:24.950 --> 01:40:28.730]  If a Twitter is hacked and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?
[01:40:29.290 --> 01:40:30.710]  I don't know, but that was not Jason.
[01:40:31.230 --> 01:40:31.710]  Okay.
[01:40:32.130 --> 01:40:33.550]  But we will be taking phone calls.
[01:40:33.630 --> 01:40:37.150]  212-209-2900 is our phone number right now.
[01:40:37.870 --> 01:40:46.510]  If listeners have anything to say about what we've been talking about, about our status here, about the station, about anything, please feel free to call in.
[01:40:46.530 --> 01:40:47.370]  There was also a story...
[01:40:47.370 --> 01:40:55.630]  Well, there's a story that everybody's talking about right now about these three guys that were plotting to join ISIL in Syria.
[01:40:55.630 --> 01:40:59.590]  Three New York City men, they were arrested on charges.
[01:40:59.590 --> 01:41:08.230]  They conspired to join the group in Syria while also trying to carry out attacks on the group's behalf in the United States.
[01:41:08.950 --> 01:41:17.230]  So, apparently, if you announce that you're going to be joining Islamic State in Syria, you'll get arrested for that.
[01:41:17.370 --> 01:41:19.370]  What I don't understand is, why don't people...
[01:41:19.370 --> 01:41:24.350]  I'm not suggesting this, but why don't people simply go overseas and then find their way to Islam?
[01:41:24.350 --> 01:41:29.470]  Why do they have to announce it before they leave and then be subject to all kinds of penalties as a result of that?
[01:41:29.790 --> 01:41:30.430]  It doesn't...
[01:41:30.430 --> 01:41:34.290]  Do you have to make reservations to get there and to apply for the organization?
[01:41:34.550 --> 01:41:37.610]  Well, we only hear about the people who get caught is part of the issue.
[01:41:37.830 --> 01:41:38.170]  All right.
[01:41:39.230 --> 01:41:40.370]  Yeah, it just seems kind of weird.
[01:41:40.430 --> 01:41:47.010]  And the other thing is that, you know, a year or so ago, people were actually traveling to Syria to fight the Assad regime.
[01:41:47.490 --> 01:41:48.590]  And that's been lost.
[01:41:48.690 --> 01:41:49.570]  That's been erased.
[01:41:49.850 --> 01:41:51.270]  You don't hear those stories anymore.
[01:41:51.270 --> 01:41:54.830]  They were seen as courageous people that were going to fight for democracy.
[01:41:54.830 --> 01:41:57.390]  And now, everybody who travels to Syria is evil.
[01:41:57.870 --> 01:41:59.150]  And what happened to Assad?
[01:41:59.170 --> 01:42:00.670]  We're not talking about that anymore either.
[01:42:00.950 --> 01:42:05.890]  So it's interesting to watch the media and how it mutates over the years.
[01:42:05.890 --> 01:42:08.310]  And just keep a critical eye.
[01:42:09.050 --> 01:42:18.450]  The Justice Department is saying that they will go after anybody who, I guess, retweets Islamic State...
[01:42:18.450 --> 01:42:21.490]  I don't know any Islamic State Twitter accounts.
[01:42:21.710 --> 01:42:22.730]  Do you guys know any?
[01:42:23.530 --> 01:42:26.150]  Apparently, they keep changing because they get shut down all the time.
[01:42:26.230 --> 01:42:27.530]  I don't know how you're supposed to follow them then.
[01:42:27.530 --> 01:42:29.790]  If you help spread ISIS...
[01:42:29.790 --> 01:42:30.690]  They say ISIS here.
[01:42:30.790 --> 01:42:32.630]  I'm going to say it because that's what the stories say.
[01:42:32.750 --> 01:42:36.830]  If you help spread ISIS propaganda on Twitter or Facebook, you could go to jail.
[01:42:37.350 --> 01:42:39.410]  That's the message from the Justice Department.
[01:42:39.570 --> 01:42:40.750]  They said this on Monday.
[01:42:41.390 --> 01:42:47.290]  Top official said he's willing to indict people who assist ISIS with its use and production of social media.
[01:42:47.850 --> 01:42:54.410]  The announcement raised questions about where the government would draw the line between support for a terrorist group and legally protected free speech.
[01:42:54.410 --> 01:43:03.870]  Provocative tweets, Facebook posts, and grisly online beheading videos have all been key parts of the recruitment and propaganda strategy of this terror group.
[01:43:04.030 --> 01:43:06.210]  Well, okay, that raises the question then of Fox News.
[01:43:06.330 --> 01:43:10.390]  Did they not show the gruesome videos on their website?
[01:43:10.470 --> 01:43:13.490]  Are they not helping then by this definition?
[01:43:13.710 --> 01:43:23.930]  How in the world does the Justice Department think they're going to be able to go after people who simply retweet a message or tell somebody of something they have heard?
[01:43:23.930 --> 01:43:26.790]  It just seems really ill-fated.
[01:43:27.490 --> 01:43:42.830]  Yeah, it seems to me that if the media environment decided that maybe a group was bad and not worth supporting, one of the first things to do would be to not talk about them, to not retweet them, to not boost their signal.
[01:43:42.830 --> 01:43:46.010]  And maybe they would just go away if they were ignored.
[01:43:46.290 --> 01:44:00.210]  But if the whole purpose of an organization is to drum up whatever outrage and support they can and drum up whatever fear they can, then if you took the tool of the mainstream media away from them, what would happen to them?
[01:44:00.450 --> 01:44:10.250]  I wonder if it would be an effective defense in this case to note that you have written in your Twitter bio that retweets are not endorsements, as so many do.
[01:44:10.870 --> 01:44:12.070]  You might have to say that.
[01:44:12.070 --> 01:44:22.210]  All right, again, the pledge line, 212-209-2950, we're in the last few minutes, and the more people who call in and pledge any amount, the better for the future of Off the Hook.
[01:44:22.470 --> 01:44:23.190]  We're not kidding.
[01:44:23.330 --> 01:44:25.010]  212-209-2950.
[01:44:25.310 --> 01:44:31.030]  For those of you who want to speak on the air now, the phone number is 212-209-2900.
[01:44:31.070 --> 01:44:33.290]  Let's see how many people call in and have something to say.
[01:44:33.450 --> 01:44:35.850]  I see the phone lines are already lighting up.
[01:44:35.910 --> 01:44:38.050]  Shall we just go to the phones and see who's out there?
[01:44:38.290 --> 01:44:39.090]  Let's do that.
[01:44:39.470 --> 01:44:40.230]  And good evening.
[01:44:40.230 --> 01:44:41.470]  You're on Off the Hook.
[01:44:42.070 --> 01:44:42.450]  Hi.
[01:44:42.550 --> 01:44:43.170]  How are you doing?
[01:44:43.350 --> 01:44:44.050]  We're doing okay.
[01:44:44.750 --> 01:44:45.210]  Okay, cool.
[01:44:46.450 --> 01:44:47.370]  Something I just want...
[01:44:47.370 --> 01:44:50.850]  This is someone you know, you know, and a family, BAI family.
[01:44:51.190 --> 01:44:51.330]  Okay.
[01:44:51.790 --> 01:44:52.170]  Something...
[01:44:52.170 --> 01:44:59.490]  If you can't get somebody on, like, the best, like, thing or whatever, just get them on a phone line and have them talking to you.
[01:44:59.610 --> 01:45:00.370]  No big deal.
[01:45:00.370 --> 01:45:01.490]  No one else will notice.
[01:45:02.730 --> 01:45:04.130]  I'm not sure what you're referring to.
[01:45:04.290 --> 01:45:05.190]  I'm just saying anything.
[01:45:05.330 --> 01:45:17.590]  When you have a guest and you can't get them, say they want to give you some, like, musical stuff over lines, you know, like, you know, like, at a radio station somewhere and get it to you.
[01:45:18.030 --> 01:45:18.390]  Yeah.
[01:45:18.710 --> 01:45:23.590]  I'm just saying just interview the person, like, right there on the phone.
[01:45:23.590 --> 01:45:24.630]  No one's going to notice.
[01:45:25.770 --> 01:45:27.190]  What would they notice?
[01:45:27.770 --> 01:45:28.770]  No one's going to notice.
[01:45:28.950 --> 01:45:30.710]  You give them the information from the person.
[01:45:30.950 --> 01:45:35.930]  And as far as BAI goes, just send $5, $10, whatever you have.
[01:45:36.150 --> 01:45:37.590]  You'll send it to WBAI.
[01:45:38.290 --> 01:45:40.130]  It's the only game in town.
[01:45:40.450 --> 01:45:41.750]  Well, I agree with that.
[01:45:41.990 --> 01:45:42.350]  Yeah.
[01:45:42.430 --> 01:45:44.830]  Thank you very, very much for the support there.
[01:45:45.050 --> 01:45:47.310]  I would echo that sentiment, definitely.
[01:45:47.770 --> 01:45:56.450]  And as far as I think what you're talking about as an interview, we were trying to get as much information out as possible, but we actually had a disconnection, a technical problem with the connection.
[01:45:56.670 --> 01:45:57.670]  And I know I didn't always want the best quality.
[01:45:57.930 --> 01:46:01.410]  Like, you want, you know, the stereo lines and everything, you know what I mean?
[01:46:01.490 --> 01:46:05.710]  But if you can't have that, then get just the person talking to you and it'll be fine.
[01:46:05.710 --> 01:46:06.630]  Don't mention it.
[01:46:06.810 --> 01:46:07.010]  Okay.
[01:46:07.430 --> 01:46:07.910]  All right.
[01:46:07.990 --> 01:46:09.010]  Thanks for that call.
[01:46:09.130 --> 01:46:09.910]  Let's take another phone call.
[01:46:10.210 --> 01:46:10.670]  Good evening.
[01:46:10.830 --> 01:46:11.670]  You're on Off the Hook.
[01:46:11.790 --> 01:46:12.050]  Go ahead.
[01:46:13.170 --> 01:46:13.570]  Yes.
[01:46:13.650 --> 01:46:27.610]  I'm wondering about how we are affected because of the Patriot Act when we go to stores and we're trying to return an item with a sales receipt.
[01:46:27.910 --> 01:46:35.170]  And the store then tells us now it's federal law that they can request a driver's license ID with the receipt.
[01:46:35.470 --> 01:46:46.050]  And I'm wondering how this amount of information going into stores that have been easily hacked is really affecting us as a populace.
[01:46:46.150 --> 01:46:47.150]  Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[01:46:47.150 --> 01:46:55.730]  You're saying if you return an item to a store, the people at the store are saying it's now federal law that they can ask for your driver's license to get a refund?
[01:46:56.470 --> 01:46:56.990]  Correct.
[01:46:57.490 --> 01:47:00.190]  They are requiring you to submit.
[01:47:00.190 --> 01:47:02.550]  I said, I paid cash for the item.
[01:47:02.710 --> 01:47:03.850]  I have my sales receipt.
[01:47:03.970 --> 01:47:05.110]  I have the item unused.
[01:47:05.330 --> 01:47:06.910]  We need your driver's license.
[01:47:06.910 --> 01:47:12.750]  And they're saying this under the guise of they're trying to stop people from stealing.
[01:47:12.770 --> 01:47:14.850]  I said, I have the receipt for the item.
[01:47:15.130 --> 01:47:23.990]  And then when I called the corporation, they told me, well, under the Patriot Act, they can legally ask for a license with any returned receipt.
[01:47:24.290 --> 01:47:27.970]  These are not little companies that are doing this.
[01:47:28.170 --> 01:47:28.750]  These are...
[01:47:28.750 --> 01:47:30.970]  Is this some kind of a drug, perhaps?
[01:47:31.770 --> 01:47:32.890]  Is that what the item is?
[01:47:32.890 --> 01:47:33.430]  No, it's not.
[01:47:33.590 --> 01:47:39.430]  They are bras, panties, you know, items, clothing items.
[01:47:39.430 --> 01:47:40.130]  So what I see...
[01:47:40.130 --> 01:47:46.790]  They are requiring you with your actual receipt and your credit card to submit your license and they scan the license.
[01:47:46.790 --> 01:48:04.030]  So what I suspect we're seeing is a very unexpected consequence of the growth of the security state, which is that companies like the one you're dealing with will make up federal laws in order to get you... in order to make it difficult to return their products because they take a loss when you return something.
[01:48:04.030 --> 01:48:11.290]  This is the equivalent of when you're taking a picture of the Brooklyn Bridge or something and a cop tells you it's against the law and he quotes the law, it doesn't exist.
[01:48:12.470 --> 01:48:13.590]  That's what's happening here.
[01:48:14.090 --> 01:48:20.470]  There's nothing in the Patriot Act that says if you're returning a bra, you have to show a license, especially if you pay by cash or even if you don't pay by cash.
[01:48:20.470 --> 01:48:21.090]  It's nonsense.
[01:48:21.570 --> 01:48:27.450]  It's just absurd to me and these are huge companies that are doing this across the board.
[01:48:27.750 --> 01:48:31.230]  I've noticed this after Christmas and I said, what is going on?
[01:48:31.510 --> 01:48:42.370]  And in light of all the information that has been stolen from said companies, isn't it a little dangerous to have your credit card mixed with your license ID?
[01:48:42.650 --> 01:48:50.010]  So I think the company here is getting precisely the result they want, which is that you didn't return the thing and they would consider that a win.
[01:48:50.470 --> 01:48:51.170]  Is that true?
[01:48:51.290 --> 01:48:52.310]  You didn't return it as a result?
[01:48:53.070 --> 01:48:59.970]  Well, one store I walked out and one store I returned it because the sale was a very large purchase and I just was so fed up.
[01:49:00.070 --> 01:49:04.450]  I said, give me the corporation's, you know, the numbers and let me call.
[01:49:04.690 --> 01:49:06.710]  Can you tell us the name of one of the corporations?
[01:49:08.090 --> 01:49:09.750]  Victoria's Secret is one of them.
[01:49:09.890 --> 01:49:14.090]  The other is the Children's Corner and both of them told me it is their corporate policy.
[01:49:14.230 --> 01:49:19.050]  You cannot return something without your license, even with a receipt.
[01:49:19.050 --> 01:49:27.090]  Okay, we're going out to Victoria's Secret and that other place and we're going to buy some things and we're going to return them and we're going to see if we get asked for a license as a result of the Patriot Act.
[01:49:27.290 --> 01:49:29.430]  And well, thanks for letting us know about this.
[01:49:29.590 --> 01:49:33.970]  It's good that listeners are paying attention, but that should not be happening.
[01:49:34.130 --> 01:49:44.550]  That's the kind of stuff that I think it's the creep in our society that, you know, the one takeaway, the mainstream, the majority of people get is that, well, we have all these new powers now.
[01:49:44.710 --> 01:49:46.990]  Like, that's all we got out of the last 10 years.
[01:49:47.050 --> 01:49:51.890]  And I think what's important is to support BAI and have intelligent discussions about this stuff.
[01:49:52.030 --> 01:49:55.310]  So please call 212-209-2950.
[01:49:55.310 --> 01:49:57.710]  We'll continue to talk and share about this.
[01:49:57.710 --> 01:49:57.890]  Yeah, pledge your support.
[01:49:58.070 --> 01:49:59.010]  Please pledge your support there.
[01:49:59.030 --> 01:50:18.010]  We want all the intelligent sides of these issues and the points you're raising to be what people think of when they think of obscure federal laws and stuff, not this general idea that, as Mike said, the security state is now growing and we have to answer to these retailers.
[01:50:18.390 --> 01:50:18.510]  Yeah.
[01:50:18.610 --> 01:50:32.370]  One of the biggest dangers of a society becoming more authoritarian is that people will just obey a voice of authority, whether it comes from some actual base in law or whether it's just some idiot at a retail establishment trying to enforce some corporate policy on you.
[01:50:32.370 --> 01:50:32.370]  Yeah.
[01:50:32.810 --> 01:50:32.970]  All right.
[01:50:33.010 --> 01:50:34.110]  We have another caller joining us.
[01:50:34.250 --> 01:50:34.870]  What's on your mind?
[01:50:35.630 --> 01:50:36.530]  Oh, how's it going?
[01:50:36.610 --> 01:50:37.210]  This is Fong.
[01:50:37.610 --> 01:50:39.790]  I'm glad to hear you guys back on the air.
[01:50:40.150 --> 01:50:40.410]  Thank you.
[01:50:40.550 --> 01:50:46.170]  And I do identify with your desire to still be on FM radio.
[01:50:46.450 --> 01:50:56.210]  I work in television and there's something in the business we refer to as incidental viewership, or in this case, listenership.
[01:50:56.290 --> 01:50:56.790]  Yes, yes.
[01:50:56.790 --> 01:50:58.310]  And so we know how important that is.
[01:50:59.450 --> 01:51:22.910]  On the flip side, I, you know, it, I think you're avoiding what I like to call the Howard Stern effect, which is when people have to consciously take effort to, to go find your, go find your show, then you become a completely different phenomena than you were before.
[01:51:23.110 --> 01:51:25.490]  Well, I'm just happy to avoid the Howard Stern effect no matter what it is.
[01:51:25.610 --> 01:51:27.330]  But yeah, I hear what you're saying though.
[01:51:27.690 --> 01:51:33.470]  It's, you know, that, that magic, that's how I discovered WBAI in the past, just by listening, just by finding it randomly.
[01:51:33.530 --> 01:51:35.090]  And I think that's what a lot of people do.
[01:51:36.390 --> 01:51:37.230]  Oh, I agree.
[01:51:37.490 --> 01:51:44.430]  I, and I did want to chime in, you know, on the, what seems to be the good news about net neutrality.
[01:51:44.790 --> 01:51:48.530]  And I just thought it would be something good to share.
[01:51:48.730 --> 01:52:00.330]  Even, even in this last minute, you know, we all probably have folks in our lives who still don't understand, you know, like why this is, what this issue is, no less why it's a big deal.
[01:52:00.570 --> 01:52:13.810]  And I wanted to, uh, steal from a friend of mine and a fellow network engineer who, uh, put it really succinctly, which is that the ISPs, uh, charge their customers for access to the internet.
[01:52:14.330 --> 01:52:17.870]  And now they want to charge the internet for access to their customers.
[01:52:18.550 --> 01:52:20.450]  It's straight, uh, uh, double dipping.
[01:52:20.730 --> 01:52:29.910]  And I think that's what, uh, Chairman Wheeler flatly saw and, and realized that, uh, this had to be, uh, curtailed.
[01:52:30.390 --> 01:52:30.670]  All right.
[01:52:30.710 --> 01:52:32.130]  Well, that's a good note to end on.
[01:52:32.270 --> 01:52:35.690]  I want to thank you for your words, your support, and your continued listenership.
[01:52:36.170 --> 01:52:44.250]  And I hope that a lot of people have called 212-209-2950 and pledged their support to WBAI.
[01:52:44.350 --> 01:52:46.110]  If not, you have a couple of minutes to do it.
[01:52:46.330 --> 01:52:52.470]  And every call counts towards off the hooks standing here at WBAI.
[01:52:52.710 --> 01:52:58.210]  We haven't been on for a month and we want to be on every week as we have been since the early nineties.
[01:52:58.750 --> 01:53:03.050]  Um, 212-209-2950, show your support today.
[01:53:03.270 --> 01:53:14.450]  And, uh, if you are listening in the future, you can still call 212-209-2950 or go to give the numeral to WBAI.org and make sure you, uh, specify that you're supporting off the hook and it will still count toward us.
[01:53:14.450 --> 01:53:19.110]  And if you want to write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:53:19.830 --> 01:53:21.030]  Stay tuned to WBAI.
[01:53:21.110 --> 01:53:21.490]  Keep listening.
[01:53:21.650 --> 01:53:25.110]  You'll hear all kinds of amazing things throughout the course of any typical day.
[01:53:25.330 --> 01:53:27.330]  And hopefully we'll see you back here next week.
[01:53:27.610 --> 01:53:28.130]  Good night.
[01:53:50.310 --> 01:53:50.710]  On Saturday, February 28th.
[01:53:50.710 --> 01:53:53.510]  We'll see you next week.
[01:53:53.690 --> 01:53:53.950]  Bye.
[01:53:54.890 --> 01:53:54.950]  Bye.
[01:53:55.170 --> 01:53:55.250]  Bye.
[01:53:55.250 --> 01:53:55.450]  Bye.
[01:54:57.970 --> 01:54:58.370]  Bye.
[01:54:58.370 --> 01:54:58.410]  Bye.
[01:54:58.410 --> 01:54:58.970]  Bye.