[00:00.000 --> 00:01.700]  ...and the role of religion.
[00:01.960 --> 00:12.680]  1,900 people witnessed this historic dialogue at the Riverside Church between Cornel West and Bob Avakian, infused with fire and passion to bring to an end all forms of oppression.
[00:12.960 --> 00:16.060]  Now see the film March 28th, 4 to 9 p.m.
[00:16.120 --> 00:20.620]  at the Schomburg Center for Black Culture, 515 Malcolm X Boulevard in Harlem.
[00:20.620 --> 00:30.320]  For tickets and information, call Revolution Books, 212-691-3345, or visit revolutionbooksnyc.org.
[00:37.040 --> 00:40.660]  And you are listening to radio station WBAI New York.
[00:40.860 --> 00:43.180]  The time is just about 7 o'clock.
[00:43.320 --> 00:46.120]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[00:57.900 --> 00:59.560]  Now I can't make a call.
[01:00.260 --> 01:02.320]  We couldn't get much worse.
[01:04.510 --> 01:07.790]  It would, fun diddly bump, but the best is paid for worst.
[01:08.490 --> 01:11.250]  I hope that's understood, fun diddly bump!
[02:07.990 --> 02:09.610]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:09.710 --> 02:11.190]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:11.290 --> 02:15.210]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Mike.
[02:15.450 --> 02:15.670]  Hi.
[02:15.830 --> 02:16.330]  Rob T.
[02:16.450 --> 02:16.890]  Firefly.
[02:17.130 --> 02:17.450]  Good evening.
[02:17.690 --> 02:18.010]  Kyle.
[02:18.570 --> 02:18.810]  Present.
[02:19.310 --> 02:20.310]  And Bernie S.
[02:20.670 --> 02:21.910]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:23.090 --> 02:25.930]  Well, we have some breaking news.
[02:26.150 --> 02:32.790]  We've actually been working on this, I don't want to say non-stop, but pretty much for a good part of the week as far as resolving the premium issue.
[02:32.950 --> 02:37.030]  And Bernie, I believe you're the one that has the breaking news that it's been resolved?
[02:38.070 --> 02:41.090]  Well, less than 10 minutes before airtime.
[02:41.370 --> 02:42.350]  It is less than 10 minutes ago.
[02:42.550 --> 02:45.350]  Talk about going right down to the wire.
[02:45.350 --> 02:47.150]  Just under the wire.
[02:49.010 --> 03:10.130]  WBAI volunteer Mitchell Cohen sent us a lot of information that he just worked with Carmen Marino, who we call a super volunteer, to go through a whole bunch of data in WBAI's pledge and donor database to give us the information that we've been looking for.
[03:10.230 --> 03:15.790]  We haven't had a chance, obviously, to look through it yet, but this is very good news for our listeners who are still waiting for our premiums.
[03:16.170 --> 03:16.270]  Yes.
[03:16.570 --> 03:23.310]  And prior to this, we'd actually received the information that we needed for all the premiums except for the Hopex flash drives.
[03:24.070 --> 03:30.170]  And we've been working to fulfill those, making DVD sets and basically just packaging things.
[03:30.650 --> 03:33.230]  So the end is near, it looks like.
[03:33.610 --> 03:37.950]  And once we have the information on the flash drives, we have everything we need.
[03:38.110 --> 03:44.650]  So those of you who pledged last October and November, you're going to finally get your premiums.
[03:44.770 --> 03:48.630]  So thank the good people working as volunteers.
[03:48.930 --> 03:51.810]  And they are volunteers, you know, it takes a lot of effort.
[03:51.970 --> 03:56.150]  And we're one radio show of however many is on this radio station.
[03:56.870 --> 04:02.210]  We will do everything we can for future fund drives to make this process work easier.
[04:02.510 --> 04:07.090]  I'm not sure what we can do better, but we're going to have some talks and, and figure it out.
[04:07.170 --> 04:12.690]  So hopefully, hopefully listeners realize that we're dedicated to doing what we say we're going to do.
[04:13.430 --> 04:14.110]  Sound fair?
[04:14.330 --> 04:14.590]  Great news.
[04:14.730 --> 04:14.950]  All right.
[04:15.110 --> 04:15.290]  Great news.
[04:16.150 --> 04:22.230]  Not so great news for a TV station known as WDBJ.
[04:23.170 --> 04:27.350]  You know how to really get the FCC upset?
[04:27.890 --> 04:29.250]  I mean, apart from doing our show.
[04:30.270 --> 04:34.750]  Anybody have any ideas, suggestions on ways you can really upset them?
[04:35.410 --> 04:42.690]  Yeah, you can overturn their, their sort of half net neutrality rules in legal proceedings.
[04:42.950 --> 04:44.930]  How do you do that on the radio or on TV?
[04:44.950 --> 04:46.070]  Oh, on the radio or TV.
[04:46.190 --> 04:48.570]  I'm talking about something to incur a massive fine.
[04:49.290 --> 04:52.730]  Well, we've got a poster up on the wall, actually, with seven words on.
[04:52.750 --> 04:54.010]  Okay, you know what the seven words?
[04:54.130 --> 04:55.730]  Yeah, that's, that's one way to do it.
[04:56.410 --> 05:02.390]  Although the seven words, you know, if, if, if there's a fleeting word that goes by, it's, it's not the end of the world.
[05:02.810 --> 05:05.050]  This is the end of the world.
[05:05.490 --> 05:07.570]  Well, at least for WDBJ, it might.
[05:07.650 --> 05:11.110]  They drew a $325,000 in decency fine.
[05:11.250 --> 05:12.190]  That's, that's the max.
[05:12.530 --> 05:15.990]  And let me just give some background as to how that fine came to be.
[05:16.110 --> 05:19.470]  Back in 2006, President George W.
[05:19.630 --> 05:27.930]  Bush, the guy who created ISIS, he, he signed into law the Broadcast Decency Enforcement Act of 2005.
[05:28.290 --> 05:30.210]  I guess he was running a little late.
[05:30.630 --> 05:41.250]  And that basically raised the fine 10 times over the previous maximum of $32,500 per violation for indecency over the airwaves.
[05:41.390 --> 05:48.130]  So it went from $32,500 per violation to $325,000 per violation.
[05:48.130 --> 05:52.130]  And that's just to show that we're serious about fighting indecency.
[05:52.690 --> 05:56.030]  What was the indecent material that they allegedly broadcast?
[05:56.270 --> 05:57.450]  Okay, okay, I'm getting to it.
[05:57.510 --> 05:57.950]  I'm getting to it.
[05:58.010 --> 05:58.770]  Everyone wants to know.
[05:59.930 --> 06:01.950]  Okay, it's a TV station, so it's a little bit different.
[06:03.730 --> 06:13.410]  Images popped up in a story that was being broadcast about an ex-porn star who had joined a local rescue squad.
[06:13.590 --> 06:14.510]  Good story, right?
[06:15.430 --> 06:15.910]  Yeah.
[06:17.030 --> 06:38.830]  But unfortunately, while they were doing a, I guess, a portrayal of this person who was leaving the porn world and joining, joining the world of a local rescue squad, there was an image of a hand moving up and down the length of the shaft of an erect penis.
[06:39.610 --> 06:44.670]  So folks, that is how you really incur the wrath of the FCC by doing that.
[06:44.710 --> 06:48.790]  Not why, why in God's name would a station show such an image?
[06:48.910 --> 06:56.770]  Well, according to the station, their equipment was not as big as some people's TV sets.
[06:56.990 --> 07:04.050]  So in other words, when they were editing this, they, the monitors, it wasn't visible on the station's editing bay.
[07:04.110 --> 07:04.850]  They didn't see it.
[07:05.010 --> 07:06.690]  But people at home saw it.
[07:06.690 --> 07:07.910]  It lasted three seconds.
[07:08.210 --> 07:18.370]  It lasted three seconds that they saw this image that apparently was when they were showing a website that this person had a picture on, there was that image over to the right, wasn't picked up by their editors.
[07:18.910 --> 07:22.630]  It's certainly not something you would expect that they would want to air.
[07:22.970 --> 07:30.230]  But I think it's really, really obvious that it was a mistake, you know, and $325,000 is a huge fine.
[07:30.230 --> 07:33.870]  And this is a fairly small TV station, and it'll bankrupt them.
[07:34.070 --> 07:36.510]  Are we really living in a... well, we are.
[07:36.610 --> 07:47.310]  We're living in a society where it's so unforgiving and so humorless that we can't see past this and have to really come down hard on them, like we're some kind of fundamentalist state.
[07:48.110 --> 07:49.430]  You're not making a pun, are you?
[07:49.730 --> 07:51.010]  I don't think I am, did I?
[07:51.170 --> 07:52.810]  If I did, it's inadvertent.
[07:53.250 --> 07:55.590]  That's over $100,000 per second.
[07:55.930 --> 07:57.770]  Well, if you want to measure it that way, yeah.
[07:58.330 --> 08:00.510]  I don't know what it measured at, but I'm just saying.
[08:00.510 --> 08:06.390]  Yeah, you could also say it's proof that size matters, because you have to have a big monitor to be able to see all these things.
[08:06.430 --> 08:08.330]  But I wouldn't say that either.
[08:08.910 --> 08:13.550]  Well, we can't actually do this on WBAI, at least not that our listeners would know.
[08:14.270 --> 08:17.070]  Yeah, this is one thing we can't get in trouble for.
[08:17.690 --> 08:18.870]  We're not a TV station.
[08:19.110 --> 08:23.190]  Our audiences have no idea what kind of images are going around the station right now.
[08:23.270 --> 08:28.990]  But we are responsible for the seven dirty words being laid out by the FCC.
[08:29.510 --> 08:30.210]  And what are they?
[08:30.630 --> 08:32.070]  Yeah, nice try, Bernie.
[08:32.230 --> 08:35.770]  I'm not going to give them out, but you can look them up on Wikipedia or anywhere else.
[08:36.110 --> 08:48.910]  I'll tell you, though, watching foreign television broadcasts, which I've done many, many times, you hear these words, you see images, things that would start riots here in this country, and you wonder, why is it such a big deal?
[08:49.090 --> 08:52.930]  You see nudity on broadcast TV, you hear foul language sometimes.
[08:53.650 --> 08:59.050]  Not a really big deal unless you make it into a really big deal, and then it just remains that way forever.
[08:59.050 --> 09:08.570]  Yeah, I will say that if you look up Seven Dirty Words on Wikipedia, you'll find a picture of the exact poster here in this studio that I'm talking about, because I think that illustrated it well, so I added it.
[09:08.970 --> 09:22.910]  But also, we have the most ridiculous limitations on things that are considered obscene, and it's just this weird floating line where if people want to declare something obscene, then they're going to do it, and it doesn't matter where it is in community standards.
[09:22.910 --> 09:35.450]  One example that's always being thrown around is there was a show where they were showing gender reassignment surgery on somebody, and they were showing the chest of the patient who was born male-bodied.
[09:35.650 --> 09:45.990]  And as soon as, you know, they didn't blur anything, but as soon as they inserted an implant to build a female breast, then immediately the same nipple that they had been showing was then blurred out.
[09:46.170 --> 09:49.110]  And it's like, where is this line that...
[09:49.110 --> 09:52.090]  You know, we accomplished so many amazing things.
[09:52.310 --> 09:55.710]  We sent the Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft out into space.
[09:55.910 --> 09:56.910]  You know, it's still going.
[09:57.470 --> 10:04.270]  It's our only hope, really, of escaping the Earth, I think, with word of what humanity was.
[10:05.010 --> 10:12.130]  But when we made the images of the male and the female, we actually had people upset that they were naked.
[10:12.310 --> 10:18.070]  So they had to tone that down a bit, lest we offend fundamentalist aliens out there.
[10:18.750 --> 10:22.370]  So, you know, we do great things, but we also have so much stupidity.
[10:22.490 --> 10:32.450]  I think that was the Pioneer mission that preceded Voyager, and then they omitted the images of male and female bodies on the actual plaque for that satellite.
[10:32.690 --> 10:34.670]  But I would definitely...
[10:34.670 --> 10:40.930]  I really feel like this is a huge, huge issue, and there's lots of work to be done with stories like these.
[10:41.150 --> 10:51.190]  And just our sense of what it's okay to talk about and what it's okay to show, I think, is really, really regressive and repressive at the current state.
[10:51.590 --> 10:58.330]  Social attitudes couldn't be more Victorian, and I feel like dangerous almost.
[10:58.630 --> 11:01.570]  It is dangerous because it makes you scared.
[11:01.570 --> 11:02.990]  It makes you look over your shoulders.
[11:03.130 --> 11:05.110]  It makes you self-censor, which is the worst thing ever.
[11:05.750 --> 11:08.790]  And you just have to fight this kind of thing.
[11:08.790 --> 11:10.670]  It's like people who deny climate change, you know?
[11:10.930 --> 11:14.110]  Why give them the seriousness that they do not deserve?
[11:14.550 --> 11:15.810]  We're past all this.
[11:15.930 --> 11:19.870]  We need to grow up already and start acting like we're part of the rest of the world.
[11:19.970 --> 11:20.710]  Bernie, you had something to say?
[11:21.030 --> 11:21.430]  Yeah.
[11:21.590 --> 11:34.890]  There's a technology aspect to this, Emmanuel, which I'm sure you're aware of, but our listeners probably consume at least as much content on non-broadcast media.
[11:34.890 --> 11:51.550]  The reason the FCC fined this radio station was because it is a broadcast over the airwaves, the so-called public airwaves, which WBA also broadcasts over the so-called public airwaves.
[11:51.610 --> 12:00.850]  However, there's a lot of other media that people consume, nothing on the Internet, nothing over satellite TV, which you get over cable, you know, like CNN or HBO.
[12:00.850 --> 12:01.930]  They're not broadcast.
[12:02.270 --> 12:09.130]  They're sent over closed circuits, encrypted connections to your cable company head end, so you then see it.
[12:09.890 --> 12:20.390]  But I'm wondering if that's an obsolete concept now, where broadcast media is censored like this and all other forms of media are not.
[12:20.390 --> 12:21.010]  What do you think?
[12:21.010 --> 12:36.690]  Well, I do know this, when we're talking about broadcasting, television images, I do know that a lot of the cable networks, it doesn't matter that it's not broadcast, they still, they perform the self-censorship I was referring to.
[12:37.690 --> 12:53.970]  Networks like MTV or AMC or USA, all these networks, they're so afraid of incurring the wrath of advertisers or the American public in some way that they basically live by the same rules, which does nothing but stifle creativity.
[12:54.170 --> 12:58.570]  Here's what the Parents Television Council said about this fine for WDBJ.
[12:58.810 --> 13:01.450]  The FCC is unanimous and bipartisan ruling.
[13:01.670 --> 13:13.350]  And believe me, it's unanimous and bipartisan because those FCC commissioners are afraid of the backlash if they were to appear not to come down hard on this sort of accidental image.
[13:13.350 --> 13:17.370]  The FCC's unanimous and bipartisan ruling is a victory for families.
[13:17.610 --> 13:23.470]  And it serves as a powerful reminder to broadcasters who borrow the public's airwaves that they must abide by the law.
[13:23.670 --> 13:26.070]  That's according to PTC President Tim Winter.
[13:26.230 --> 13:36.450]  And you know, I like to hear people say that, yeah, the airwaves are borrowed by these entities, but you don't hear them speaking up so much when it comes to corporate abuse of the airwaves, i.e.
[13:36.450 --> 13:48.750]  not allowing free access to all the people and just basically taking over one frequency after another and somehow being entitled to that.
[13:48.970 --> 13:51.830]  This television station is in Roanoke, Lynchburg, Virginia.
[13:51.830 --> 13:56.770]  Maybe that explains why they came down so hard against them.
[13:56.810 --> 14:01.730]  But I really hope they take a more enlightened view of this entire thing.
[14:01.930 --> 14:14.330]  Yeah, just this idea that, okay, even if it is a mistake, even if it is against the rules, the law, whatever, the fact that they're willing to put an entire independent TV station out of business, put all those people out of jobs because of this few seconds of mistake.
[14:15.690 --> 14:18.290]  Is this supposed to be a deterrent thing or a punitive thing?
[14:18.370 --> 14:21.890]  Or what exactly are they trying to achieve by setting this fine so high?
[14:21.910 --> 14:29.710]  Well, I think it's, you know, they want to cover their own asses and make it clear that they're not going to... they're going to take any instance like this seriously.
[14:29.710 --> 14:41.770]  um, and, um, and basically make everybody else scared and, and, and, um, looking over their shoulders and not airing any content that could possibly, uh, go into that territory.
[14:41.790 --> 14:43.810]  So it creates a very unhealthy environment.
[14:44.170 --> 14:44.550]  Yes, Mike.
[14:44.810 --> 14:59.330]  So Bernie, I have transmitted to you over a private communications channel, uh, not private from the I'm going to say, but private from the sensitive ears, uh, or, or, or eyes of listeners, uh, the list of the seven dirty words that is hanging in our station,
[14:59.550 --> 15:01.010]  uh, as you requested.
[15:01.290 --> 15:02.330]  What'd you go and do that for?
[15:02.510 --> 15:05.450]  I want, because I, I can transmit this privately.
[15:05.810 --> 15:07.230]  We can look at it in the station.
[15:07.490 --> 15:13.450]  Uh, Bernie should be able to look at it too, but I wouldn't dare to subject our audience to these words.
[15:13.610 --> 15:20.510]  Yeah, but you used airwaves in this room that could have, uh, latched onto our airwaves and gone out to the general public.
[15:20.730 --> 15:24.030]  Uh, the communication between my phone and my email server is encrypted.
[15:24.470 --> 15:24.910]  All right.
[15:24.970 --> 15:25.490]  Well, you know what?
[15:25.510 --> 15:26.570]  That sounds dangerous too.
[15:26.890 --> 15:27.610]  Uh, no doubt.
[15:28.370 --> 15:28.950]  Ah, okay.
[15:28.990 --> 15:45.090]  I wonder, I wonder if we broadcast, if you took a picture of that poster there in the studio and then we converted it into, uh, audio tones using, uh, slow scan TV, which is a popular mode of image transmission over, uh, uh, ham radio over shortwave.
[15:45.250 --> 15:49.890]  We've done it at the, the, the hook conference, uh, uh, radio, uh, amateur radio station.
[15:50.010 --> 15:58.150]  Look, the FCC has gone so crazy with this that even if you make it backwards, backwards masking in a foreign language, it still counts.
[15:58.950 --> 15:59.430]  Literally.
[15:59.430 --> 16:03.070]  They have said that you're supposed to know every language, including Klingon.
[16:03.270 --> 16:09.030]  And if you, if you mask obscenities, uh, backwards, you are still responsible as if you had just aired them yourself.
[16:09.230 --> 16:09.690]  It's incredible.
[16:10.250 --> 16:16.850]  Well, some languages that are sufficiently closely related to English that you can tell what word means what, it's okay.
[16:16.870 --> 16:26.730]  But if you have a, a, a truly foreign language or an extremely foreign language, how do you know which are the seven words that exactly map to the seven English words?
[16:26.730 --> 16:32.110]  Well, you won't find out from us because we can't, uh, we can't speak, uh, no, please, Kyle.
[16:32.550 --> 16:33.730]  Uh, we can't say those words.
[16:33.950 --> 16:36.510]  However, there is the, I don't know that we have this online.
[16:36.730 --> 16:41.730]  The, um, uh, the indecent version of off the hook we did at one of the hope conferences that we did not air on the radio.
[16:42.030 --> 16:48.770]  Uh, I think we, we played George Carlin's famous piece there and he, he lists all seven of the words, but you know, there's variations.
[16:48.990 --> 16:52.470]  There's all kinds of things you can add and, and, and some of them even shouldn't be on that list.
[16:52.490 --> 16:54.990]  I don't think, I don't think any of them should be on the list.
[16:55.350 --> 16:58.370]  Basically, you know, indecency, it's in the eye of the beholder.
[16:58.850 --> 17:04.670]  And if something is bad, something is, uh, offensive, people won't support it.
[17:05.070 --> 17:08.830]  You know, if we act like grownups, I think that, uh, that actually works.
[17:09.090 --> 17:26.290]  You know what we don't do on this radio program nearly enough is, uh, if you've ever read the New York times, they're masters of this form where someone, uh, uses a word that they do not wish to print in their newspaper and they come up with these like insane long circumlocutions to really focus your attention on the word they're omitting.
[17:26.530 --> 17:28.290]  We don't ever do that on this program.
[17:28.510 --> 17:39.890]  Well, you're welcome to try and start that, but, uh, I mean, like, for example, I think that you are thinking that these list of words is utter nonsense, but I think you're thinking of a stronger word than that.
[17:39.970 --> 17:40.310]  Boulder dash.
[17:40.870 --> 17:42.630]  Stronger even is the one that I think.
[17:42.630 --> 17:43.530]  That's a pretty strong word.
[17:43.530 --> 17:46.410]  If you say that loudly in a crowd, people, people take note.
[17:46.930 --> 17:47.990]  I've never tried it.
[17:48.170 --> 17:51.170]  I think something, I mean, really it's, it's not the words themselves.
[17:51.170 --> 17:52.310]  It's what it represents.
[17:52.330 --> 18:06.370]  And it is that fear that, that, um, ability to get people to feel as though, uh, their every move is watched and thus they, they have a, uh, they have to change their behavior to avoid repercussions at every turn.
[18:06.670 --> 18:09.930]  Um, and it, it's the broader impact.
[18:09.930 --> 18:27.490]  I think, uh, the words, yeah, it's, it's, it's actually a short list and there are a lot of exceptions and there's, you could probably say all of them and get the gist of it with, you know, with, uh, slight, uh, variations or, or, um, parallel terms, but it's the concept itself that you can't say one thing or the other,
[18:27.610 --> 18:41.590]  or you can't see or, or create, uh, something of one type or the other that, um, really stands in the way I think of creativity and dare I say adult conversations and discussions.
[18:41.630 --> 18:52.850]  And I mean, these words, you might be able to make some emphasis and, um, that sort of thing, but they're not that intelligent and it really wouldn't color what you're saying any better.
[18:53.210 --> 18:53.310]  Exactly.
[18:53.430 --> 18:53.630]  Yes.
[18:53.790 --> 19:07.890]  But I think describing situations, um, uh, stories, um, kind of things that there, there are far more, um, far more dangerous ideas and, and, and concepts than just this, this narrow list of words.
[19:07.990 --> 19:09.450]  But it's, again, it's about what it represents.
[19:09.650 --> 19:15.430]  There was, there was a case recently where, where there was video of, um, of somebody being killed by the cops.
[19:15.650 --> 19:25.610]  I, I, I, I can't tell you what city because it happens in so many places, but there was video of this and video of somebody being killed.
[19:25.870 --> 19:31.810]  And I'm not sure which it might've been the, uh, the, the San Francisco Chronicle, the LA times, something on the West coast.
[19:31.950 --> 19:37.430]  They had a warning saying that if you watch this image, it contains bad language.
[19:38.030 --> 19:40.610]  Nevermind that somebody is being killed on the video.
[19:40.770 --> 19:46.030]  They wanted to warn you about the bad language because that's what people take action against.
[19:46.030 --> 19:49.850]  That's what these family oriented groups really care about.
[19:50.050 --> 19:50.410]  Violence.
[19:50.530 --> 19:51.190]  Yeah, that's fine.
[19:51.250 --> 19:51.970]  Not a big deal.
[19:52.270 --> 19:56.210]  You know, kids have to learn violence and, uh, and, and, and beating up people and things like that.
[19:56.290 --> 19:57.650]  But we don't want to know about sex.
[19:57.750 --> 19:58.710]  We don't want to hear those words.
[19:59.050 --> 20:00.730]  That's going to incur a large fine.
[20:00.890 --> 20:11.450]  All I know is we, we routinely on this station and on the show in particular, talk about things that I find personally offensive, much more offensive than any, um, single expletive word that is or isn't on this poster.
[20:11.750 --> 20:13.550]  And yet we're still going to keep talking about them.
[20:13.810 --> 20:16.650]  And, uh, you know, I think, I think we should be able to do this.
[20:16.810 --> 20:17.870]  I think we should be able to keep doing that.
[20:17.990 --> 20:18.010]  Absolutely.
[20:18.010 --> 20:20.410]  And on the other hand, I was listening to Fox News on the way in.
[20:20.490 --> 20:28.670]  A lot of things I hear there are very offensive to me, you know, but, but they have, well, actually they're a cable network, so they're not even responsible.
[20:28.810 --> 20:35.810]  They could, they could cuss up a storm and, uh, they'd offend their advertisers, but they wouldn't incur any fines because they're not broadcast over the airwaves.
[20:36.150 --> 20:42.410]  Uh, but the point is if they did that, they turn off their audience and, um, yeah, they'd even turn off that audience.
[20:42.930 --> 20:45.170]  Uh, that is, that is the measure.
[20:45.270 --> 20:51.290]  That is what you, you need to, um, um, to use to gauge whether or not something is worth preserving.
[20:51.590 --> 21:05.770]  And it's just, we're, we're creating this, uh, this fantasy world, uh, run by people that have no conception of what freedom of speech is and, uh, who aren't able to have an intelligent conversation about certain key issues.
[21:05.990 --> 21:07.410]  And it's vital that we do that.
[21:07.550 --> 21:08.770]  It's vital that we, we grow up.
[21:08.910 --> 21:24.810]  And these mediums, uh, I, I, one other thing I want to say is these mediums absolutely dictate, uh, social mores and social, uh, attitudes, the ideologies of our society, what we consider okay and not okay and how discussions are presented.
[21:24.990 --> 21:33.110]  That is, that is absolute, that is how, um, mass, mass media itself is in charge of shaping that in a lot of ways.
[21:33.350 --> 21:43.310]  And we must have, uh, uh, influence and, uh, speak up about the things that we think are viable and, uh, adult, uh, worthy, whatever, however you want to say it.
[21:43.510 --> 22:02.970]  But, um, if not, you're, you're going to find that these, these guidelines and these sort of dumbed down versions of the media will have then their own influence, um, on culture, but without our opinions and without other ideas coming into the, the marketplace of those ideas and they'll win out.
[22:03.230 --> 22:09.490]  So it's really about being outspoken, um, in the face of this and, and broadening the, the content of discussion.
[22:09.630 --> 22:11.010]  And, and it's an evolving picture too.
[22:11.130 --> 22:19.690]  There was, there was a time in broadcast media where if you talked about someone being gay, or if you talked about white and black people starting a family together or things like this, that would have been offensive.
[22:19.830 --> 22:20.430]  That would have been obscene.
[22:20.530 --> 22:21.590]  That would have gotten you pulled off the air.
[22:21.710 --> 22:23.630]  Talk about atheism or something like that.
[22:23.630 --> 22:31.090]  You know, there, there's a great episode of WKRP in Cincinnati, one of my favorite programs where, uh, someone goes down that slippery slope.
[22:31.330 --> 22:33.910]  A minister is telling people what they can and cannot play on the air.
[22:34.030 --> 22:37.470]  And someone reads the, uh, the lyrics to John Lennon's imagine.
[22:38.130 --> 22:42.650]  And he, the, the minister finds it completely offensive because imagine no religion.
[22:42.810 --> 22:48.330]  Imagine all these things that they value that all of a sudden is being devalued.
[22:48.570 --> 22:53.610]  And of course, uh, if, if you're of that mindset, you'll say, no, you can't permit that on the air.
[22:53.790 --> 22:57.090]  And before you know it, people will believe that and people will follow that.
[22:57.190 --> 23:04.430]  So it's a very scary thing, a lot scarier than an occasional bad word or an occasional erect penis that's shown on commercial television.
[23:04.770 --> 23:05.910]  These things happen.
[23:06.130 --> 23:07.310]  They happen around the world.
[23:07.730 --> 23:11.550]  Mistakes or, or just bad taste should be treated as such.
[23:11.910 --> 23:20.850]  You know, I only meant to spend a couple of seconds on this because I thought it was an interesting story, but you know, it, it, it makes me realize we can change the conversation.
[23:20.970 --> 23:32.990]  We can change the conversation just like we can on so many other levels by not allowing a side that is really kind of, uh, how do you say out of their minds in a nicer way?
[23:33.250 --> 23:38.070]  Just people that, that would have been laughed out of the room a mere 20 years ago.
[23:38.250 --> 23:43.590]  Uh, now we're practically at the state where we want to give equal time to flat earth society.
[23:43.750 --> 23:54.270]  Uh, people who don't believe in the theory of gravity, uh, all that kind of thing by, by giving equal time to nonsense, the nonsense becomes part of the mainstream.
[23:54.510 --> 23:56.350]  We don't have to keep doing that.
[23:56.550 --> 23:59.030]  You know, classical gravitation has been disproven.
[23:59.210 --> 23:59.490]  All right.
[23:59.590 --> 24:04.030]  You know, we can have that debate on a different hour, but, um, but you raised a good point.
[24:04.190 --> 24:05.190]  It validates it.
[24:05.290 --> 24:07.010]  I mean, obviously don't get fined.
[24:07.110 --> 24:09.410]  Like no, nobody really wants to be fined by the FCC.
[24:09.750 --> 24:14.650]  That doesn't sound like a fun day at the office, but you validate that process.
[24:14.790 --> 24:18.890]  If, if you, uh, are paralyzed by its influence.
[24:19.470 --> 24:19.910]  Absolutely.
[24:20.910 --> 24:21.490]  All right.
[24:21.770 --> 24:22.690]  Shall we move on?
[24:23.130 --> 24:27.070]  Uh, one way folks can help though is by, just by talking about this particular story.
[24:27.170 --> 24:34.250]  Let's see if something can happen here that, uh, this, uh, this TV station isn't fine, such an incredible amount for what's obviously a mistake.
[24:34.350 --> 24:35.890]  That would be a nice first step.
[24:35.990 --> 24:37.050]  And then we can take it from there.
[24:37.050 --> 24:41.910]  Maybe have more intelligent conversations and, uh, not have to keep reinventing the wheel.
[24:42.510 --> 24:43.490]  Um, all right.
[24:43.610 --> 24:57.930]  Uh, there is a move actually, if you can believe this to dismantle the Patriot Act, a pair of house lawmakers want to completely repeal the Patriot Act and other legal provisions to dramatically rein in American spying.
[24:58.110 --> 24:58.450]  Yes.
[24:58.590 --> 24:59.450]  Thank you, Edward Snowden.
[24:59.610 --> 25:09.290]  Now members of Congress are taking note and actually voicing opposition to the Patriot Act, something that would be political suicide a mere few years ago.
[25:09.570 --> 25:16.530]  Representatives Mark Poken, a Democrat of Wisconsin and Thomas Massey, a Republican of Kentucky, a Republican from Kentucky.
[25:16.870 --> 25:20.350]  I mean, come on, you can't get any more right wing than that, right?
[25:20.910 --> 25:27.470]  Well, yesterday they unveiled their surveillance state repeal act, which spells out SSRA.
[25:27.690 --> 25:31.870]  You know, Patriot is an amalgamation of words, right?
[25:32.070 --> 25:33.010]  Do you know what it is, Mike?
[25:33.470 --> 25:40.050]  Uh, protecting America, something about terrorism, but this is... It spells out Patriot and USA in front of it, actually.
[25:40.190 --> 25:40.310]  Yeah, yeah.
[25:40.410 --> 25:44.730]  Uniting and strengthening America for some... Why do they feel the need to do that?
[25:45.090 --> 25:45.970]  Because it's catchy.
[25:46.110 --> 25:49.150]  This bill, I'm afraid, is not going to go anywhere without a catchy acronym.
[25:49.410 --> 25:51.470]  Yeah, SSRA just doesn't do it for me, that's for sure.
[25:51.470 --> 25:53.830]  And that already stands for something in the government too, doesn't it?
[26:01.710 --> 26:05.050]  He said this during a Capitol Hill briefing on the legislation.
[26:05.270 --> 26:09.970]  This is a meaningful overhaul of the system, getting rid of essentially all parameters of the Patriot Act.
[26:10.110 --> 26:12.090]  The bill would completely repeal the Patriot Act.
[26:12.250 --> 26:27.970]  The sweeping national security law passed in the days after September 11th, 2001, as well as the 2008 FISA Amendments Act, another spying law that the NSA has used to justify collecting vast swaths of people's communications through the internet.
[26:27.970 --> 26:39.450]  It would also reform the secretive court that oversees the nation's spying powers, prevent the government from forcing tech companies to create backdoors into their devices, and create additional protections for whistleblowers.
[26:40.010 --> 26:52.670]  The bill is likely to be a non-starter for leaders in Congress who have been worried that even much milder reforms to the nation's spying laws would tragically handicap the nation's ability to fight terrorists.
[26:53.330 --> 26:58.670]  Do we agree that that would be the result of even a milder version of this, Bernie?
[26:59.270 --> 27:00.990]  No, I don't believe that for a second.
[27:02.710 --> 27:03.850]  I really don't.
[27:03.950 --> 27:12.050]  I don't think that being able to surveil all Americans really is going to make a huge difference in the amount of terrorism in this country.
[27:12.110 --> 27:13.590]  I'm still not afraid of terrorists.
[27:13.710 --> 27:14.530]  Are you afraid of terrorists?
[27:15.510 --> 27:21.610]  Every form of death is more likely to happen to you, pretty much.
[27:21.810 --> 27:28.650]  You know, a meteorite hitting you square on the head is more likely to happen to you than being attacked by terrorists in the United States.
[27:29.850 --> 27:31.490]  It's, you know, it's an unlikely thing.
[27:31.650 --> 27:37.150]  It's not a pleasant thing, obviously, but it's something that we don't have to give up our constitution for.
[27:37.350 --> 27:43.650]  We don't have to completely submit all of our communications to the pondering eyes of the government.
[27:45.330 --> 27:45.730]  Right?
[27:46.010 --> 27:48.550]  I don't think there's a whole lot to add to that, unfortunately.
[27:48.750 --> 27:54.450]  There's a huge... I don't think this... I wish this bill was going to at least get debated, but... Well, maybe it can.
[27:54.630 --> 27:59.330]  You know, June 1st is the deadline for reauthorizing portions of the Patriot Act.
[28:00.650 --> 28:05.530]  I know this was being broadcast on C-SPAN, which, by the way, everybody should watch C-SPAN, right, Kyle?
[28:05.970 --> 28:06.370]  Yes.
[28:06.810 --> 28:10.190]  It's amazing to just see some of the things that happen in government.
[28:10.190 --> 28:13.350]  And it's also quite interesting to hear what your representatives are saying.
[28:13.650 --> 28:23.710]  If people support this kind of thing, if people demand this kind of thing, and as you can see, a Republican from Kentucky, a Democrat from Wisconsin, all areas of the political spectrum can be represented here.
[28:23.950 --> 28:32.810]  If we unite in this and not go crazy that we're siding with somebody that we disagree with on other issues, we might actually have a chance.
[28:33.110 --> 28:40.090]  I wish I could believe that this had a chance in hell, but as, you know, September 11th, 2001, to quote Rudy Giuliani.
[28:40.930 --> 28:44.450]  But those of us who were around back then and who understood what was going on... Wait, that was the whole quote?
[28:44.570 --> 28:45.990]  September 11th was the whole quote?
[28:46.030 --> 28:48.230]  That was a quote of about half of what's come out of his mouth.
[28:48.390 --> 28:55.250]  But when that happened, it was so easy to just push things like the Patriot Act through.
[28:55.470 --> 28:59.370]  It's so easy to just give away rights and lose rights.
[28:59.370 --> 29:01.810]  It's so difficult to ever, ever get them back.
[29:02.110 --> 29:08.490]  And we were sold this whole thing back then of, oh, we're going to do this just now because everything's on edge and everything's dangerous and everything's terrible.
[29:08.590 --> 29:10.010]  And we need to protect ourselves.
[29:10.250 --> 29:13.250]  But, you know, it's never just for a little while.
[29:13.410 --> 29:19.690]  It's never just until things get better, because things will never get better for them to return the civil rights that they've traveled all over with this.
[29:19.790 --> 29:25.730]  And I really wish I could believe that there's a chance of finally, 14 years later, reversing the damage.
[29:25.890 --> 29:27.170]  But I can't get my hopes up.
[29:27.470 --> 29:29.310]  I hear where you're coming from.
[29:29.450 --> 29:30.830]  I'm a little bit more positive.
[29:31.070 --> 29:32.470]  I think... I'm hopeful.
[29:32.850 --> 29:53.510]  I think that really there's a lot of things we could do as citizens and in the community to articulate why it won't be... why the perception is really the only danger, the perception that we're more susceptible or we can't combat so-called terrorism.
[29:54.130 --> 29:56.490]  I think really it's about that perception.
[29:56.490 --> 30:02.790]  And we need to diffuse that and kind of debunk why that, you know, state why that's not real.
[30:03.570 --> 30:21.350]  There's plenty of things that would be enhanced by as far as privacy, but it really doesn't... the rules in the Patriot Act don't go hand in hand necessarily with privacy and the investigation of actual kind of national security issues.
[30:21.510 --> 30:23.790]  So I'm going to present the case for optimism.
[30:24.010 --> 30:25.150]  I'm not sure if I believe it myself.
[30:25.310 --> 30:26.350]  I'm not really good at optimism.
[30:26.630 --> 30:27.770]  You're going to present the case for optimism.
[30:27.910 --> 30:27.910]  I'm going to try.
[30:28.050 --> 30:28.510]  I'm going to try.
[30:28.670 --> 30:28.870]  Okay.
[30:28.910 --> 30:29.470]  This ought to be good.
[30:29.610 --> 30:29.790]  Yeah.
[30:29.910 --> 30:47.630]  So I think it's the case that like a broad spectrum of people here in America and certainly around the world recognize that the government has like gone way too far, that we have very little to fear from terrorism, particularly the kind of terrorism that they want us to fear the most.
[30:48.810 --> 30:53.030]  And many people, even in Congress, know that this is the case.
[30:53.390 --> 31:01.890]  You remember a few years ago, there was a bill to defund the NSA, which didn't pass, but came very, very close, much closer than certainly I would have imagined.
[31:03.470 --> 31:10.370]  And so the closer you get to the centers of power, I think it's possible that Americans support this kind of reform.
[31:10.650 --> 31:13.350]  It's certainly the case that the world supports this kind of reform.
[31:13.690 --> 31:18.170]  It's even maybe possible that Congress people would support this kind of reform.
[31:18.350 --> 31:25.090]  The question is if we can convince the congressional leadership to allow this to even come to a fair and open vote.
[31:25.670 --> 31:27.310]  And you know, maybe it's possible.
[31:28.090 --> 31:29.730]  That's the best I can do for optimism.
[31:29.730 --> 31:30.350]  How was that?
[31:30.510 --> 31:36.610]  I want to ask Rob what it would take to make him have a bit more hope that something could change.
[31:37.270 --> 31:51.210]  I would say, you know, I hear what you guys are saying about the power ultimately being in the hands of the, of the general public, of the people, but, but no, I, but it, I think, I think there is something to the old, the old bit from network, you know,
[31:51.290 --> 31:52.970]  you've, you know, first you've got to get mad.
[31:53.230 --> 32:03.170]  And it's, it, it is, it is in the hands of the voters to try and convince the Congress creatures to, to do something or try and convince the politicians to do something.
[32:03.310 --> 32:13.230]  But I, I just don't know if, uh, people like it's still, it still seems to be a really unpopular thing and risky thing to say when you say, maybe I don't think everyone should be listened in upon all the time.
[32:13.470 --> 32:15.010]  Uh, maybe I, maybe I don't think this.
[32:15.130 --> 32:15.130]  Yeah.
[32:15.150 --> 32:20.170]  But is it, is it, uh, more popular to say that now than it was say five years ago?
[32:20.730 --> 32:24.710]  I would dare say that in any circle, it probably is more popular to say that.
[32:24.830 --> 32:24.990]  Okay.
[32:25.070 --> 32:25.170]  Yeah.
[32:25.290 --> 32:32.250]  I mean, I think a lot of people on all corners of the political spectrum do not trust the U S government to always do what is right.
[32:32.850 --> 32:33.250]  Yeah.
[32:33.390 --> 32:38.170]  And, and you can, you can basically link into that, that, uh, distrust.
[32:38.310 --> 32:43.570]  And it doesn't matter if you're speaking to a survivalist or, uh, a radical communist or, or whatever.
[32:43.610 --> 32:50.070]  If you share that, you band together and you try and change things and then you can fight amongst yourselves after you do that.
[32:50.230 --> 32:51.590]  There's plenty of time for that.
[32:51.690 --> 32:54.110]  And no one will know you're fighting because it won't be recorded.
[32:54.330 --> 32:54.930]  Well, okay.
[32:55.130 --> 32:55.910]  Yeah, I suppose.
[32:56.310 --> 32:56.670]  Emmanuel.
[32:56.890 --> 32:57.350]  Yes, go ahead, Bernie.
[33:00.370 --> 33:10.530]  I'm, I'm in support of, uh, uh, any, any law that would be passed that would, uh, prevent, uh, uh, uh, surveillance on Americans, um, without a warrant at least.
[33:10.890 --> 33:25.750]  Um, but we've learned from some of our hope speakers, uh, uh, uh, Bill Binney and Thomas Drake and others that, uh, even if there are laws preventing this kind of illegal, uh, illegal surveillance on, on Americans, they're going to do it anyway.
[33:26.650 --> 33:30.690]  And, um, these were, that's what these whistleblowers stepped up to point out.
[33:30.870 --> 33:34.850]  And they themselves were, were, were targeted, persecuted and prosecuted.
[33:35.070 --> 33:41.290]  And, you know, fortunately they're not behind bars right now, but it's, it's, it's a real uphill battle.
[33:41.290 --> 33:43.710]  So it's not just laws will solve this problem.
[33:44.010 --> 33:47.770]  I think, uh, I think there's more to it than that.
[33:48.030 --> 33:55.570]  Well, the fact that there is such a reaction against people who do expose this sort of thing tells me it's the right fight to be having.
[33:55.790 --> 34:00.550]  It tells me that it matters to them to preserve their abuses of, of privacy.
[34:00.750 --> 34:02.690]  And that's exactly why we have to be fighting it.
[34:03.690 --> 34:05.090]  All right, moving on.
[34:05.310 --> 34:12.290]  Um, we had a number of letters, um, this week, OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[34:12.490 --> 34:16.550]  Uh, this concerning the, um, the Hillary Clinton email server.
[34:17.030 --> 34:20.070]  Um, this, um, this right, I'm just going to read one of these.
[34:20.130 --> 34:20.610]  We had a few.
[34:20.810 --> 34:22.630]  Um, this is from Dave.
[34:22.730 --> 34:26.110]  He says, usually I email for my work, but I just found this service.
[34:26.230 --> 34:27.310]  So I'll be using it a lot from now.
[34:27.470 --> 34:28.350]  What service did he find?
[34:28.710 --> 34:30.590]  Uh, I guess a new email address.
[34:30.730 --> 34:30.910]  Okay.
[34:31.110 --> 34:32.170]  Well, congratulations on that.
[34:32.370 --> 34:36.910]  I listened pretty religiously to your show and was getting rather worried for a sec when you disappeared for a bit.
[34:37.310 --> 34:38.910]  Hopefully you were worried for more than a second.
[34:39.350 --> 34:44.530]  Uh, however, now that you're back, my Thursday drive back from the office listening via MP3 is complete.
[34:44.670 --> 34:50.710]  Isn't that cool to know that somebody is driving back right now on Thursday and listening to us via MP3.
[34:50.870 --> 34:54.070]  When I say right now, obviously it's not right now for us, but it is right now for them.
[34:54.710 --> 34:54.850]  All right.
[34:55.070 --> 34:56.770]  So don't, don't fight me on that.
[34:56.930 --> 34:57.850]  This is time travel.
[34:58.010 --> 34:58.370]  It is.
[34:58.530 --> 35:10.570]  Uh, the stuff I heard, uh, from that chap who's been trying to get into Hillary Clinton's web server, uh, actually get info on Hillary Clinton's server, uh, had me chuckling, maybe not chuckling more like a full on belly laugh to the point.
[35:10.690 --> 35:12.010]  I had to pull the car over for a bit.
[35:12.730 --> 35:13.130]  Okay.
[35:13.330 --> 35:13.590]  Yes.
[35:13.670 --> 35:19.050]  The F5 big IP that he stated was the server on the end of the IP for Hillary's domain.
[35:19.510 --> 35:28.770]  Uh, it's actually a device called a load balancer that takes incoming traffic on one IP address, spreads it between multiple services behind it.
[35:28.950 --> 35:32.410]  This could be firewalls, web servers, databases, email servers.
[35:32.610 --> 35:39.770]  What it can also do is take multiple inbound links and work as a smart switch between them in the event of circuit failure.
[35:39.910 --> 35:46.470]  What is likely is that this particular load balancer has more than one high capacity circuit inbound, probably primary and backup.
[35:46.730 --> 35:52.970]  And that IP is routed out via BGP to multiple connectivity providers based on circuit status.
[35:53.210 --> 36:12.250]  There could be, for example, a 10 gigabit, uh, to say Verizon and a five gigabit backup to say AT&T and the routing on the F5 will say, Hey, internet to get to this IP, go via this route on Verizon, but should it not be able to talk to Verizon, it'll re advertise out the AT&T link.
[36:12.250 --> 36:20.470]  And after a period of time, other routers out on the internet will then know to get that particular IP, it has to eventually route through the other provider.
[36:21.090 --> 36:21.570]  Okay.
[36:21.630 --> 36:22.770]  That, that does make sense.
[36:22.890 --> 36:26.450]  Uh, the idea being to minimize downtime in the event of line failure.
[36:26.570 --> 36:37.590]  It's also possible there could be a cluster of load balancers taking multiple gigabits of, um, of traffic and, uh, spreading it over more than one provider link to provide huge capacity links.
[36:37.750 --> 36:53.290]  The internal side of the load balancer or cluster thereof could then plug into multiple points in the ISP's core to provide resiliency or eventually connect via a series of firewalls, DMZ, internal, et cetera, uh, to one or more server farms to provide a service.
[36:53.470 --> 37:06.210]  In the case of hosted mail, it'll be most likely firing it straight out to an intermediate service that will do stuff like spam filtering, et cetera, before forwarding it onto the real mail server, which could be located anywhere else in the world.
[37:06.710 --> 37:08.770]  Message labs provides this sort of service.
[37:08.970 --> 37:15.930]  And so does, uh, McAfee, which is where this chap probably got the idea that McAfee owns a domain slash IP for the Clinton mail server.
[37:16.050 --> 37:17.330]  It probably doesn't.
[37:17.690 --> 37:27.490]  It's more likely that from the ISP in Florida that provides domain services like Clinton mail.net or whatever it was, uh, the mail then gets forwarded to McAfee for spam slash virus filtering.
[37:27.730 --> 37:33.550]  Then from there, the mails that pass all that testing get forwarded to the actual server owned by the Clintons.
[37:34.010 --> 37:42.190]  This too could be hosted by another ISP as a cloud provided offering, or they could be running their own exchange or whatever other mail software is available.
[37:42.790 --> 37:52.950]  Uh, while I understand the show has to appeal to the broadest range of listeners possible, letting chaps like this on the air is the radio equivalent to the sort of hacking in the movies or on TV.
[37:53.550 --> 37:56.630]  I'm surprised he didn't use words like I backtraced this IP.
[37:57.310 --> 38:00.010]  I hope this clarifies a bit what this chap is finding.
[38:00.210 --> 38:00.870]  Keep up the good work.
[38:00.990 --> 38:01.870]  Best regards, Dave.
[38:02.070 --> 38:11.410]  Dave, thank you for using the word chap more than I've ever used before in my life, but also, you know, uh, basically expanding upon comments that were made by one of our listeners.
[38:11.670 --> 38:18.930]  And yeah, you know, a lot of people wrote in to basically, uh, criticize this to say, uh, that, uh, he was doing it wrong.
[38:19.070 --> 38:26.350]  He was getting all the answers incorrect, but not offering anything that was correct, not, not steering us in the right direction.
[38:26.950 --> 38:41.590]  And that's something that, um, I'd rather let somebody talk about something and start the conversation, even if their, um, their conclusions are in error or if they don't have the technical knowledge necessary to, uh, to move forward rather than just dismiss it and stop the conversation.
[38:41.770 --> 38:47.490]  Now we have a much, uh, a much more enlightened, um, uh, bit of email to read from.
[38:47.750 --> 38:56.290]  And I'm hoping that we get more basically think of this chap as inspiring you to look into it a bit and to have this, this, this dialogue.
[38:56.590 --> 38:57.330]  What do you say, Bernie?
[38:58.690 --> 39:07.550]  I'm perplexed as to why any mail server for, for one person or for a family like the Clinton family, we need gigabits per second of, uh, of capacity.
[39:07.890 --> 39:08.630]  I, I... Okay.
[39:08.770 --> 39:09.810]  You know, you're missing the point here.
[39:09.930 --> 39:12.390]  I'm talking about the conversation.
[39:12.870 --> 39:18.690]  Uh, we should have different people speaking that they're, uh, with their opinions and, uh, research shows.
[39:18.690 --> 39:25.930]  And that's, you know, I, I commend you for, for reading this, uh, this, this other guy's letter, uh, on, on the air.
[39:26.050 --> 39:30.530]  We, we, you know, he didn't criticize everything this, uh, this caller, uh, provided.
[39:30.730 --> 39:32.750]  He was actually affirmed that some of it was probably true.
[39:32.930 --> 39:38.830]  But in any case, uh, uh, nobody has all the correct answers and you're here to share them on the air.
[39:38.950 --> 39:41.710]  And I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand 90% of this.
[39:41.870 --> 39:45.530]  And, uh, it's because my brain is occupied doing something else.
[39:45.790 --> 39:57.010]  So if somebody brings it up that, that is also getting things wrong, well, then hopefully that inspires somebody to call in and not, not simply tell the person he doesn't know what he's talking about and that we shouldn't waste air time discussing this,
[39:57.430 --> 40:03.870]  but explain what's wrong and what the correct application is starting a dialogue that way.
[40:03.970 --> 40:07.970]  I think that is what the hacker world stands for, not just getting everything right.
[40:08.170 --> 40:08.390]  Yeah.
[40:08.710 --> 40:10.630]  Ultimately that is what the hacker world is all about.
[40:10.790 --> 40:15.070]  It's by getting the conversation going, getting people contributing with what they have to add.
[40:15.230 --> 40:25.450]  And, you know, you're going to, you're going to find maybe some wrong answers on the way to the correct ones, but, uh, but still everyone's chipping in, everyone's inspiring at each other and, uh, everyone's working toward, uh, toward the common goal.
[40:25.550 --> 40:26.350]  And there's value in that.
[40:26.490 --> 40:29.770]  Even if something's totally wrong, you know, then correcting it gets you the right answers.
[40:29.890 --> 40:40.750]  And by opening our ourselves up to being wrong and maybe, uh, saying one or the other thing about one of these issues or, or a technical item that opens a new discussion on getting it right.
[40:40.750 --> 40:45.950]  So we can, we're totally open to correction and that, that actually enriches everyone in the process.
[40:46.190 --> 40:47.350]  It's, it's part of teaching and learning.
[40:47.530 --> 40:50.410]  And really, um, we want to let everyone speak.
[40:50.610 --> 40:54.910]  And that's part of what, why we take calls on, on the show and, and have a discussion.
[40:54.910 --> 41:11.710]  So if somebody's got the spirit and they're, they're willing to put in a little bit of legwork, um, even if it's, you know, uh, not, not a pro version of pro assessment or, or audit as, as it were, um, it at least covers the basics and, and gets people thinking and,
[41:11.710 --> 41:27.870]  and actually get, um, gets people off their butts to, to come up with some, some real answers and, and explain the, in this case, complexities of hosted services that, yeah, maybe there's thousands of email addresses, um, uh, that are run by these systems.
[41:27.910 --> 41:31.030]  It can be incredibly complex and, uh, people have to understand that.
[41:31.210 --> 41:41.870]  And we've, and we've also got to accept and encourage each other's right to make mistakes and be wrong about stuff because there, there is value in learning that lesson and, uh, and, you know, finding the best way to go about things in the future.
[41:41.990 --> 41:46.470]  That's in the constitution to be able to make mistakes and to, uh, to, to sort things out on your own.
[41:46.590 --> 41:55.930]  But you know, we can correct people and we have corrected people and we will correct people when we, when we, when we know the answer, when we know the answer and we know somebody is wrong, we will, we will call them on it.
[41:56.110 --> 42:03.230]  But when it's just, uh, simply a question of methodology and, uh, and, and, and assumptions and things We can try.
[42:03.230 --> 42:05.790]  We can take up all our time doing that.
[42:05.870 --> 42:12.190]  Or we can hope that this might reach a bunch of listeners and get them to contribute as well and have a bigger conversation.
[42:12.930 --> 42:13.510]  All right.
[42:13.590 --> 42:18.050]  Speaking of which, our phone number, 212-209-2900.
[42:18.330 --> 42:20.950]  That phone number is now open for your calls.
[42:20.950 --> 42:32.230]  If somebody out there would like to discuss something right or wrong or just begin a conversation with us or end the conversation with us, whatever, please, please give us a call.
[42:32.350 --> 42:35.550]  Country code 1-212-209-2900.
[42:36.070 --> 42:39.290]  And should we take phone calls right away?
[42:39.890 --> 42:40.770]  Yeah, why not?
[42:41.530 --> 42:42.230]  Good evening.
[42:42.270 --> 42:43.570]  You're on Off the Hook.
[42:44.290 --> 42:45.410]  Hi there, Off the Hook.
[42:45.770 --> 42:46.590]  What's on your mind?
[42:46.690 --> 42:47.010]  Adam here.
[42:47.610 --> 42:52.590]  I tuned in a little late to your discussion of the seven bad words.
[42:53.250 --> 42:54.430]  Well, you missed them then.
[42:54.430 --> 42:55.670]  We broadcast all seven.
[42:56.610 --> 42:57.710]  No, no, no, we didn't.
[42:57.790 --> 42:58.150]  We didn't.
[43:00.090 --> 43:11.950]  I think you exaggerate the impact and or the purpose that these still remain sort of on the books of the FCC.
[43:13.810 --> 43:30.070]  I don't know whether you know what glacial erratics are, sort of the rocks that a glacier picks up up north and then as it has traveled down, brings with it, and then when it recedes, it leaves it.
[43:31.750 --> 43:32.950]  It leaves a moraine?
[43:33.330 --> 43:34.750]  Yeah, it leaves it on the moraine.
[43:34.890 --> 43:36.290]  Does this somehow relate to the FCC?
[43:36.810 --> 43:37.090]  Yeah.
[43:37.090 --> 43:52.590]  Because I think these seven deadly words, it's not to really repress content and creativity as you were talking about.
[43:52.590 --> 44:11.910]  But there seems to be plenty of that, in a way, and certainly plenty of objectionable material, if only in narrative form or particular characters, both on commercial broadcast media and certainly elsewhere.
[44:13.170 --> 44:24.370]  I think it's a, you know, this is material that, or these words, were prohibited in the New York Times 50 or 60 years ago.
[44:24.370 --> 44:28.990]  So, some of that has changed in print media.
[44:30.070 --> 44:37.450]  But this has been retained as sort of, you know, well, we're going to retain this firewall, as it were, on smut.
[44:37.770 --> 44:58.550]  And that's going to stay in place while opening up the floodgates to all kinds of other stuff that the people who object to hearing those seven deadly words, smutty words, get very offended by it.
[44:58.550 --> 44:59.350]  And they're very active.
[45:00.110 --> 45:05.470]  And that's the other side of the story that you don't seem to, you didn't seem to emphasize.
[45:06.490 --> 45:14.890]  As you read from whatever, a newspaper article or an editorial, there are people out there who really, that's their firewall.
[45:16.190 --> 45:22.590]  And if it's breached, they, you know, they want there to be held to pay.
[45:23.070 --> 45:49.550]  And so, it has this sort of dialectical quality that, on the one hand, limiting this sort of ancient, sort of anachronistic, atavistic, Victorian prudery, in a very narrow way, allows for all kinds of other, you know, junk.
[45:51.270 --> 45:51.710]  Prudery.
[45:52.090 --> 45:52.370]  Yeah.
[45:52.510 --> 45:54.270]  Yeah, you know, and balderdashery.
[45:55.670 --> 45:56.550]  That sort of thing.
[45:56.590 --> 45:58.250]  Well, thanks for that perspective.
[45:58.730 --> 46:03.470]  And thanks for the illustrative words, because we do need to improve our diction as well.
[46:03.470 --> 46:04.950]  But thanks, thanks for that.
[46:05.070 --> 46:05.630]  And he's right.
[46:05.770 --> 46:07.950]  You know, it's, they are very active.
[46:08.370 --> 46:14.890]  People whose, who, whose reason for living, basically, is to fight this sort of thing.
[46:15.410 --> 46:17.830]  They know the second something like that happens.
[46:18.430 --> 46:26.950]  And those of us who feel that this, this kind of restriction is a threat to freedom of speech, I think we need to be just as active, but know why that we're, why we're active.
[46:27.090 --> 46:31.290]  Know what, what a better way of dealing with this kind of situation is.
[46:31.970 --> 46:33.290]  All right, let's take another phone call.
[46:33.350 --> 46:33.630]  Good evening.
[46:34.690 --> 46:36.370]  You are on, off the hook.
[46:36.470 --> 46:36.710]  Go ahead.
[46:37.370 --> 46:39.390]  Yes, I have a networking question.
[46:39.790 --> 46:43.150]  Well, I'm not sure you'll get an answer from us, but go ahead and try.
[46:43.310 --> 46:45.150]  And if, if, if not from us, the show afterwards.
[46:45.490 --> 46:46.950]  Okay, even the best as you can.
[46:47.310 --> 46:48.890]  Is port scanning illegal?
[46:49.690 --> 46:50.950]  Is port scanning illegal?
[46:50.970 --> 46:51.750]  Who wants to take that?
[46:53.030 --> 46:53.390]  No.
[46:54.470 --> 46:54.790]  All right.
[46:54.890 --> 46:56.810]  Port scanning in itself is just a tool.
[46:56.930 --> 46:57.890]  It's not illegal to use.
[46:57.890 --> 47:02.410]  You can port scan equipment that you're, that you own, or that you have permission to scan.
[47:02.650 --> 47:05.270]  Like, like if you're, if you're testing stuff for, for work.
[47:05.870 --> 47:10.950]  But if you, like any tool, if you misuse it, then, and commit some sort of offense.
[47:11.070 --> 47:12.870]  And I'm not giving this as legal advice, I'm not your lawyer.
[47:13.290 --> 47:18.630]  But if you use it as part of the committing of some offense, then, then it will not be looked on well.
[47:18.790 --> 47:22.230]  It's like, you know, a hammer is a valid tool to build some stairs with.
[47:22.370 --> 47:25.590]  But if you use it to bash in a store window, then they're not going to like you using that hammer.
[47:25.590 --> 47:32.030]  Well, can I port scan, say, a site like NSA.gov or army.mil or microsoft.com?
[47:32.130 --> 47:37.610]  If I just port scan those sites without doing anything else, is somebody going to be upset?
[47:37.890 --> 47:38.870]  I won't be upset.
[47:38.870 --> 47:39.750]  You have my full permission.
[47:39.810 --> 47:42.650]  Well, they'll be upset, but will I be breaking a law by doing that?
[47:42.890 --> 47:45.130]  I think that's the gist of what the caller is asking.
[47:45.290 --> 47:48.110]  Consult with your lawyer if you're really concerned.
[47:48.530 --> 47:53.390]  We had an attendee at Hope that port scanned the entire internet with our connection at HopeX.
[47:53.390 --> 47:55.390]  They used our connection to do that, the entire internet?
[47:55.730 --> 47:56.050]  Yes.
[47:56.290 --> 47:56.610]  Wow.
[47:57.830 --> 48:01.810]  They've been to the end of the internet and back, and this is what I found.
[48:01.970 --> 48:02.530]  That's kind of cool.
[48:03.470 --> 48:04.970]  212-209-2900.
[48:06.430 --> 48:07.010]  Good evening.
[48:07.250 --> 48:07.990]  You're on Off the Hook.
[48:08.070 --> 48:08.310]  Go ahead.
[48:08.970 --> 48:09.690]  Hey, I'm on?
[48:09.850 --> 48:10.870]  You're on the air right now.
[48:12.170 --> 48:14.270]  Well, hey, um, you sure?
[48:15.170 --> 48:18.010]  I'm sure, and I'll be sure you're not on the air if you don't say something soon.
[48:18.670 --> 48:26.240]  Hey, all of the stuff that, that guy talked about, about the, um,
[48:35.350 --> 48:36.090]  60 and that 40.
[48:36.850 --> 48:41.030]  Okay, see, this is an example of us dealing with the situation on our own.
[48:41.170 --> 48:46.110]  But if that little button hadn't worked, um, I don't think we should be fined $325,000.
[48:46.110 --> 48:46.650]  Do you?
[48:47.070 --> 48:47.630]  All right.
[48:47.750 --> 48:49.670]  And, of course, you have to cut off the caller when they do that.
[48:51.770 --> 48:53.030]  212-209-2900.
[48:53.110 --> 48:53.350]  Good evening.
[48:53.450 --> 48:53.870]  You're on the air.
[48:53.870 --> 48:54.410]  Hi.
[48:55.070 --> 48:56.630]  Um, two things, quickly.
[48:57.050 --> 49:07.770]  First, you know, I grew up in the 1960s, and, and during, during that era, all the newscasts showed all the violence from Vietnam.
[49:08.090 --> 49:10.770]  You know, the person's getting blown up by napalm.
[49:10.950 --> 49:17.810]  That famous photograph of that young girl running down the street with her back on fire after getting hit by napalm.
[49:18.090 --> 49:19.810]  They mean, I mean, everything.
[49:20.170 --> 49:21.870]  The kid's getting bashed in.
[49:22.010 --> 49:25.610]  The head's getting bashed in, you know, in anti-war demonstrations.
[49:25.970 --> 49:27.470]  That was okay to show.
[49:28.270 --> 49:32.190]  Three seconds, I'm going to wreck penis, then we didn't get a gay man aroused.
[49:32.890 --> 49:34.150]  And, you know...
[49:34.150 --> 49:34.470]  Uh-huh.
[49:34.630 --> 49:41.570]  No, you have a point there, and that is, that speaks to, uh, to what the FCC commissioners find to be reprehensible.
[49:41.990 --> 49:44.850]  Uh, and, and you're right, violence is perfectly okay.
[49:44.970 --> 49:51.070]  And, but, you know, another point, that kind of violence, things from My Lai Massacre and all that, that should be shown.
[49:51.230 --> 49:52.870]  I think, I think people need to see that.
[49:53.010 --> 49:57.250]  But can you imagine, can you imagine if it was forbidden to show anything like that?
[49:57.390 --> 50:04.090]  It's the same kind of road you're going down when you, when you forbid words, images, concepts, things like that.
[50:04.270 --> 50:05.410]  Let the people decide.
[50:05.530 --> 50:08.330]  Let the people decide by what they are drawn to.
[50:08.330 --> 50:09.130]  Okay.
[50:09.350 --> 50:09.610]  All right.
[50:09.790 --> 50:10.090]  Yeah.
[50:10.470 --> 50:10.810]  All right.
[50:10.910 --> 50:16.270]  The second quick thing is, tell me this does not go into the realm of bizarre.
[50:16.730 --> 50:22.790]  I'm going to read from an article, I'm going to read part of an article on a paper called Workers Vanguard.
[50:23.130 --> 50:23.810]  Can I make it quick?
[50:24.090 --> 50:26.810]  The Spartacist League is the last issue.
[50:27.330 --> 50:28.810]  Sacramento, California.
[50:29.170 --> 50:33.130]  Cops charge black activists with lynching.
[50:33.690 --> 50:34.830]  Want me to read that again?
[50:35.730 --> 50:36.970]  Uh, well, I mean, yeah.
[50:37.050 --> 50:37.270]  Okay.
[50:37.630 --> 50:39.350]  What, what, what, the context.
[50:39.950 --> 50:41.830]  Black activists with lynching.
[50:41.830 --> 50:42.150]  Uh-huh.
[50:42.370 --> 50:44.150]  Defend Miley Hampton.
[50:44.310 --> 50:45.490]  M-A-I-L-E.
[50:45.630 --> 50:46.890]  I'll just read part of this.
[50:47.230 --> 51:00.610]  On January 15th, Miley Hampton, a young black woman and member of the Answer Coalition, was leading chance at a Sacramento, California protest against a pro-cop rally.
[51:00.810 --> 51:11.590]  An online video shows the cops violently attacking several protesters, slamming a woman against a cop car, repeatedly throwing a man to the ground.
[51:11.770 --> 51:15.830]  While Butler being handcuffed, the crowd chanted to let them go.
[51:16.270 --> 51:19.650]  Bobby Slaughter Hampton was arrested at her home.
[51:20.010 --> 51:25.510]  She now faces up to four years in jail and charges of felony lynching.
[51:25.510 --> 51:25.710]  Okay.
[51:25.710 --> 51:27.430]  Who did, who did she lynch?
[51:27.990 --> 51:29.130]  That's what I want to know.
[51:29.410 --> 51:30.910]  Well, that's an important part of the story.
[51:31.330 --> 51:32.690]  It doesn't say in there anywhere?
[51:33.230 --> 51:33.630]  No.
[51:34.090 --> 51:34.370]  All right.
[51:34.430 --> 51:39.290]  Well, that, that is something that, uh, whoever wrote the story needs to, uh, needs to fill people in on.
[51:39.390 --> 51:42.750]  That's, uh, it's a, it's a bit, uh, a bit weird, but thanks.
[51:42.930 --> 51:44.090]  Uh, thanks for filling us in on that.
[51:44.170 --> 51:46.750]  It's a weird story and there's a lot to worry about.
[51:46.750 --> 51:47.030]  Oh, you know about this?
[51:47.050 --> 51:54.010]  And I just Googled it while, while we were listening and, and there's some better written stories on the internet than, than one can find in the worker's vanguard.
[51:54.290 --> 51:55.610]  Oh, don't criticize the worker's vanguard.
[51:55.750 --> 51:56.430]  We're going to get more mail.
[51:56.550 --> 51:57.170]  Oh, sorry.
[51:57.290 --> 51:57.370]  Okay.
[51:57.530 --> 51:58.570]  What do you want to fill us in?
[51:58.930 --> 52:00.830]  Uh, so apparently, uh, interfering.
[52:01.210 --> 52:12.090]  So there's a rule, I guess, uh, that if the police are trying to take someone away and you, uh, you know, you take that person away to do your own form of justice, that's, that's lynching.
[52:12.250 --> 52:13.010]  How is that lynching?
[52:13.470 --> 52:16.390]  Well, if you, if you're going to like, you know, hang them, that's the lynching.
[52:16.790 --> 52:18.750]  Uh, and so this rule is being applied.
[52:18.930 --> 52:21.550]  It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a nonsense case.
[52:21.890 --> 52:25.150]  Interstellar travel is a better description of that.
[52:25.150 --> 52:27.510]  It's just, I hope that the charges won't stick.
[52:27.690 --> 52:29.810]  And I, I, I found an article in the garden.
[52:30.090 --> 52:34.030]  Could they come up with a word that actually fit what the person was trying to do?
[52:34.110 --> 52:35.470]  Yeah, I suspect they're good.
[52:35.610 --> 52:37.590]  You know, but this is the game that the police play.
[52:37.750 --> 52:55.710]  They, they, uh, and the prosecutor, you know, apparatus in general, they charge people with these insane charges that, that cover, you know, like way too much jail time and all this stuff so that they can then plea bargain down to something more reasonable so that you don't go to trial and actually fight.
[52:55.770 --> 53:01.770]  I just found that I could be guilty of lynching because I, I, I would totally do something like that if, uh, I don't know if you want to discuss that on the radio.
[53:01.810 --> 53:06.410]  Well, I'm just saying that definition of it, uh, you're getting in the way of somebody being arrested.
[53:06.450 --> 53:10.910]  That's the California rules as I quickly understood them in about 10 seconds.
[53:11.270 --> 53:11.410]  California.
[53:11.530 --> 53:12.410]  Of course that explains it.
[53:12.410 --> 53:12.830]  Yeah.
[53:13.230 --> 53:13.450]  Sorry.
[53:13.810 --> 53:17.690]  Uh, again, if you're considering committing a crime, consult with a real lawyer first.
[53:17.830 --> 53:17.930]  Yeah.
[53:18.070 --> 53:20.750]  212-209-2900 is our telephone number.
[53:21.130 --> 53:21.830]  Oh, look at that.
[53:21.850 --> 53:23.050]  All the calls just disappeared at once.
[53:23.070 --> 53:27.230]  We had a full switchboard and I don't know what happens when, when it cycles out.
[53:27.730 --> 53:30.790]  If, if it's still ringing someplace, it's not ringing any place here.
[53:30.950 --> 53:34.670]  So, uh, call back 212-209-2900.
[53:34.770 --> 53:37.290]  Bernie, uh, any, any thoughts on what we just discussed?
[53:38.370 --> 53:40.310]  I'm, I'm, I'm overwhelmed by it, frankly.
[53:40.850 --> 53:41.250]  Okay.
[53:41.470 --> 53:45.950]  Well, it's that perversion of language that I think is, uh, is, is, is kind of noteworthy.
[53:46.470 --> 53:52.170]  And you have to be careful on a, on an FCC regulated radio station about, uh, how you analyze these things.
[53:52.250 --> 53:55.390]  I'm glad you were able to bleep out that listener, uh, so we avoid a big fine.
[53:56.010 --> 53:56.410]  Yes.
[53:56.710 --> 53:57.090]  Yeah.
[53:57.350 --> 54:02.750]  Fortunately, my finger worked and hit the right button, but I've been known to hit the wrong button sometimes, you know?
[54:02.810 --> 54:05.730]  Having a spasm, a muscle spasm or something, you couldn't press it in time.
[54:05.950 --> 54:06.270]  Exactly.
[54:06.630 --> 54:07.510]  Like, it could happen.
[54:07.710 --> 54:12.430]  And I could get a mental spasm just by thinking about what happens if I don't, you know?
[54:13.070 --> 54:13.990]  Anyway, enough of that.
[54:14.170 --> 54:14.450]  Good evening.
[54:14.590 --> 54:15.210]  You're on off the hook.
[54:16.370 --> 54:18.710]  Hi, just an optimistic note, if I could add one.
[54:18.970 --> 54:19.170]  Sure.
[54:19.230 --> 54:19.470]  Go ahead.
[54:20.390 --> 54:25.650]  Um, my name is Cookie Palmer and I used to work at, uh, volunteer at BAI a lot.
[54:25.770 --> 54:28.270]  And I, um, sorry about your premium problems.
[54:28.350 --> 54:29.210]  I hope they get resolved.
[54:29.330 --> 54:52.590]  But I think what really encourages me about your whole discussion tonight is that despite the fact that you all have every reason to be cynical about everything going on and so do I, the great hopeful note to me is that the precision of language, uh, as it crosses from the law to technology to the arts to broadcasting and back into plain English for whoever can do it,
[54:52.730 --> 54:56.010]  is what is happening now, whether anybody likes it or not.
[54:56.510 --> 55:21.530]  And what you guys are doing on this program, which I totally appreciate, is that you are seeking to continuously articulate across these different, uh, linguistic, uh, terms so that everybody, if they can't follow it all, is, uh, also understanding how precisely we all need to be both in speech,
[55:21.690 --> 55:29.390]  um, and in our commentary about, in our, even on our thinking about how all these issues need to be parsed.
[55:29.490 --> 55:35.590]  And so, uh, you may think this is an idiotically, overly optimistic thing, but I think it's wonderful.
[55:36.090 --> 55:36.450]  Thanks.
[55:36.630 --> 55:40.030]  Thanks for that acknowledgement and for recognizing that because that is what we try to do.
[55:40.190 --> 55:45.830]  We try to, uh, just have the dialogue and we try to be, uh, uh, a bit positive no matter how negative things look.
[55:46.450 --> 55:47.790]  Yeah, and they do look negative.
[55:47.950 --> 55:48.690]  There's no question.
[55:48.930 --> 55:58.050]  It's just that, uh, you know, as an attorney, a little bit, hardly at all a techie, but also, you know, uh, uh, artistic and technical person in my own right.
[55:58.290 --> 56:00.490]  Plus, I don't know, all these other things.
[56:00.650 --> 56:04.850]  I realize that kids growing up now have to learn to negotiate all of this.
[56:05.130 --> 56:08.010]  Um, I'm just, I think the negative thing is, can they follow it?
[56:08.890 --> 56:11.330]  Can, can they really talk across the boundaries?
[56:11.570 --> 56:24.330]  But what you were saying before about the Republican from Kentucky and the Democrat from wherever he is and how these are also converging is to me, kind of proof of, of this whole phenomenon, you know?
[56:24.870 --> 56:26.310]  And it could be a good thing.
[56:26.390 --> 56:29.690]  I mean, it, it's maybe, um, something we have to work on.
[56:29.830 --> 56:33.930]  We got to put a little elbow grease into, but it's, uh, I guess, as they say, got, got good bones, maybe?
[56:34.490 --> 56:37.890]  It may just come about on its own is what I'm thinking because...
[56:37.890 --> 56:38.150]  Oh, sure.
[56:38.270 --> 56:38.490]  That too.
[56:38.750 --> 56:42.330]  You know, there is just so much energy directed toward communication.
[56:42.390 --> 56:44.030]  Why is Facebook so important?
[56:44.510 --> 56:49.150]  Even if people are just talking about their cats, eventually somebody sends them a comment, can't you spell cat?
[56:49.650 --> 56:50.330]  You know what I mean?
[56:52.690 --> 57:04.710]  There's this, this, there's this, I wouldn't say self-correcting because, you know, you have all this potential censorship on the horizon, but the, but the truth is everybody is starting to get it anyway.
[57:04.950 --> 57:21.090]  And even when you start listening to people talking about social movements in places as other BAI programs feature, you know, people just like community activists getting on the radio talking about what they do in Mississippi when they try to screw them up on the vote.
[57:22.050 --> 57:26.850]  You know, the interesting thing is these people have cell phones now, right?
[57:26.850 --> 57:31.470]  They don't have to necessarily wait for the law to screw them up.
[57:31.470 --> 57:41.070]  They can, uh, look on and are become more curious about what's going on and maybe even help themselves defeat even the most egregious bullshit.
[57:41.410 --> 57:42.230]  Uh, uh, sorry.
[57:42.250 --> 57:43.710]  That's about as close as we can get.
[57:44.230 --> 57:44.670]  I'm sorry.
[57:44.770 --> 57:45.270]  You know what I'm saying?
[57:45.350 --> 57:45.950]  Yes, totally.
[57:46.250 --> 57:46.410]  Totally.
[57:46.630 --> 57:56.750]  Because you have every effort on one side of the coin, the right side, being ever more desperately looking to just X everybody out of the whole thing.
[57:57.430 --> 58:01.490]  When really, basically, it's already aware of that in a way.
[58:02.150 --> 58:02.530]  All right.
[58:02.590 --> 58:08.550]  Listen, we're out of time, but thanks so much for your thoughts and, um, and, and keep listening and keep thinking and, and, and, and discussing all of this.
[58:08.830 --> 58:11.730]  Uh, that's going to do it for us here tonight on off the hook.
[58:11.810 --> 58:12.970]  I want to thank everybody for calling in.
[58:13.090 --> 58:17.050]  Sorry to those we didn't get to, but you can write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[58:17.210 --> 58:19.430]  We can continue the dialogue there, start new dialogues.
[58:19.870 --> 58:23.410]  But right now, stay tuned for the personal computer show coming up next here on WBAI.
[58:23.590 --> 58:24.770]  This is Manuel Goldstein for off the hook.
[58:24.970 --> 58:25.590]  See you next week.
[59:32.740 --> 59:37.240]  This is Father Lawrence Lucas, member of the WBAI local station board.
[59:37.480 --> 59:38.940]  What do you expect of media?