[00:00.000 --> 00:00.580]  WBAI.org.
[00:00.600 --> 00:05.520]  There's a great selection of plays, events, discussions, concerts, movies.
[00:05.780 --> 00:07.380]  I'll definitely find something.
[00:07.720 --> 00:10.780]  All I have to do is click on the header that says Tickets.
[00:11.240 --> 00:12.520]  I'm saved!
[00:12.960 --> 00:14.340]  Happy birthday, sweetie!
[00:18.740 --> 00:26.020]  That's Give2, the numeral 2, WBAI.org, and click on the header that says Tickets.
[00:32.040 --> 00:37.020]  It's 7 o'clock time on WBAI for Off The Hook.
[02:05.680 --> 02:07.160]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:07.300 --> 02:10.240]  The program is off the hook.
[02:10.720 --> 02:11.960]  Emmanuel Goldstein here with you.
[02:12.860 --> 02:14.100]  I don't know how I sound.
[02:14.220 --> 02:18.260]  I sound kind of echoey and weird, but hopefully I don't sound that way to the rest of the people.
[02:19.040 --> 02:20.440]  I'm joined tonight by Mike.
[02:20.780 --> 02:21.080]  Hi there.
[02:21.460 --> 02:22.720]  Yeah, I don't hear you at all.
[02:23.540 --> 02:25.920]  I can keep talking until you find my microphone.
[02:26.200 --> 02:27.640]  No, your microphone is up.
[02:29.460 --> 02:32.100]  Maybe there's a setting for me where I can hear better.
[02:32.100 --> 02:34.180]  But we're also joined by Rob.
[02:34.500 --> 02:35.160]  Good evening.
[02:35.580 --> 02:35.920]  Kyle?
[02:36.280 --> 02:36.800]  Present.
[02:37.160 --> 02:38.800]  And Bernie S.
[02:39.540 --> 02:40.940]  Greetings from Pennsylvania.
[02:40.940 --> 02:41.800]  Welcome back.
[02:41.800 --> 02:45.960]  I wish you and Kyle had both returned from the Yukon unscathed.
[02:46.740 --> 02:49.480]  Well, yeah, we're pretty unscathed.
[02:49.580 --> 02:51.100]  Okay, I found my headphone volume.
[02:51.200 --> 02:53.200]  It's a very tiny little knob, and I found it on the board.
[02:53.740 --> 02:59.340]  And unfortunately, this is something that's just part of our temporary setup here.
[02:59.340 --> 03:04.080]  Whenever I bring the phone up, it sounds like I'm on the phone, too, and I don't want to sound like that.
[03:04.260 --> 03:12.380]  So, Bernie, we're going to keep you down most of the time, unless we'll periodically bring you up.
[03:12.960 --> 03:13.320]  Okay.
[03:13.460 --> 03:18.420]  And, of course, if you have something to say, well, there's really no way you can get our attention, is there?
[03:18.920 --> 03:20.140]  Well, we'll do our best.
[03:20.300 --> 03:20.940]  We will do our best.
[03:21.000 --> 03:25.220]  But these are adverse situations we're dealing with right now.
[03:25.220 --> 03:26.320]  But it's going to get better.
[03:26.600 --> 03:27.140]  It's going to get a lot better.
[03:27.180 --> 03:28.640]  You hear people walking by in the hallway.
[03:29.140 --> 03:32.440]  You know, we might as well just be set up out on Atlantic Avenue on the street.
[03:32.700 --> 03:33.640]  Mike, what are you pointing to?
[03:33.700 --> 03:37.140]  I mean, I do see some additional soundproofing on the floor rolled up.
[03:37.280 --> 03:38.540]  So maybe next time...
[03:38.540 --> 03:39.960]  You guys want to hammer it into the wall, then?
[03:40.040 --> 03:40.300]  Go ahead.
[03:40.440 --> 03:40.860]  It doesn't matter.
[03:41.060 --> 03:42.980]  You know, it won't make any less noise if we do that.
[03:43.140 --> 03:45.280]  Well, I mean, next time, maybe it'll be installed.
[03:45.280 --> 03:51.220]  And we'll be... we'll still have the hole in our wall, but the part of the wall that is solid will be soundproofed.
[03:51.280 --> 03:51.560]  Yes.
[03:52.160 --> 03:53.480]  Well, okay, so we are back.
[03:53.500 --> 03:58.420]  Kyle and I have returned from the Great North, where the 34 dogs have been delivered safely.
[03:58.620 --> 04:00.460]  Yes, Bernie, thanks for your kind wishes.
[04:01.760 --> 04:08.040]  Yeah, it sounds like it really... I don't... maybe I shared too much about your medical condition, but you could probably share it with the listeners if you want.
[04:08.180 --> 04:12.080]  There's not a chance in the world you could share too much about my medical condition.
[04:12.080 --> 04:21.760]  Well, right now, your medical condition is that you're healing from your broken hand that you suffered as we were making literally the final preparations after delivering the dogs to Ontario.
[04:22.440 --> 04:26.700]  Kyle fell out of the moving van while trying to pull out a mattress so that we could sleep.
[04:27.260 --> 04:29.780]  But what we learned... and he's healing nicely.
[04:29.780 --> 04:31.120]  It's been only about 10 days.
[04:31.780 --> 04:38.360]  We learned a lot about the Canadian health care system and, I might say, the American health care system, or lack thereof.
[04:38.360 --> 04:51.700]  Yeah, it's really terrible when you actually need stuff to figure out exactly how to navigate, especially with international and national medical coverage.
[04:52.220 --> 04:53.600]  It's... I don't know.
[04:53.700 --> 04:54.320]  It's kind of scary.
[04:55.060 --> 05:07.620]  But at the same time, I think edifying useful information to learn that system and route around various obstacles to getting the kind of care you need.
[05:07.620 --> 05:09.760]  Yeah, just to be whole again.
[05:10.080 --> 05:20.240]  Well, just to give people a sense as to what we went through, when Kyle broke his hand, the first call we made from the new house in Ontario was 9-1-1.
[05:20.760 --> 05:24.460]  And we found that there was, in fact, a hospital right there in town that was open.
[05:24.460 --> 05:26.820]  And so Kyle got an ambulance ride.
[05:26.900 --> 05:30.520]  He had a triage in the ER.
[05:30.520 --> 05:34.360]  He had a couple of x-rays, I think three x-rays taken.
[05:35.000 --> 05:39.140]  Had a doctor's consult and had a nice bandage made.
[05:39.140 --> 05:49.520]  And that whole thing, when we got... we paid the doctor right there in the ER, because that's... when you're American, they know they're not going to ever collect anything from you, most likely.
[05:49.680 --> 05:50.920]  So we worked that out.
[05:51.300 --> 05:56.560]  And we got the bill in the email, which we're also going to pay because we're honest people.
[05:56.840 --> 06:01.940]  The whole thing, everything, all of that added together in American dollars, 588 bucks.
[06:02.960 --> 06:11.440]  If you did that in this country, and the funny thing is, everybody there is saying, okay, we want to save you money, so we're going to send you back to your country to have this taken care of.
[06:11.560 --> 06:13.700]  They don't know what we have to deal with in this country.
[06:14.140 --> 06:16.740]  Just trying to make an appointment.
[06:17.300 --> 06:20.660]  First of all, you don't have health care in this country, all right?
[06:21.020 --> 06:23.180]  This is something I learned, yes, I thought I had health care.
[06:23.400 --> 06:24.280]  Kyle thought he had health care.
[06:24.360 --> 06:24.720]  But you know what?
[06:24.780 --> 06:29.760]  If you're not within a certain geographical area, nothing is covered.
[06:29.760 --> 06:52.560]  Or if you don't work for a company that has a large group or an institution like government institutions or academic or other kinds of large institutions, private plans really, they aren't what they appear to be, especially with all the stipulations and exceptions and rules that,
[06:52.560 --> 07:00.940]  you know, you really start to apply when you need help, but it's not something, like, completely debilitating.
[07:01.120 --> 07:08.300]  The realistic stuff seems to be very carefully weeded out of what they actually will offer you.
[07:08.500 --> 07:11.460]  See, yeah, if you work for a big corporation, you're probably covered.
[07:11.620 --> 07:13.680]  So this isn't about you.
[07:13.920 --> 07:18.140]  It's about people that are individuals or people who own their own businesses, things like that.
[07:18.140 --> 07:23.760]  But if we get sick outside of our local area, the only thing that's covered is ER.
[07:23.980 --> 07:29.240]  And that's not even covered because you have this huge deductible, $3,000, $4,000 is standard.
[07:29.760 --> 07:31.420]  And then on top of that, you have the co-pay.
[07:31.580 --> 07:35.200]  Then on top of that, you have the payment you have to make every month.
[07:35.320 --> 07:37.040]  Then there's something called co-insurance after that.
[07:37.160 --> 07:44.400]  In Canada, they just take care of it and it comes out of your income tax, which, by the way, is less than the income tax we pay here.
[07:44.420 --> 07:45.220]  I'll sit down now.
[07:45.220 --> 07:46.580]  Okay, no, you know what?
[07:46.620 --> 07:50.920]  I just got the signal from hackers around the world.
[07:51.060 --> 07:53.420]  And yeah, that's confirmed.
[07:53.500 --> 07:56.260]  No one cares at all about this.
[07:56.260 --> 07:58.760]  And we're not talking about anything that is technical.
[07:58.760 --> 07:59.740]  So we have to move on.
[07:59.920 --> 08:01.200]  Well, it is technical, though.
[08:01.360 --> 08:02.740]  It's a system that needs to be hacked.
[08:03.400 --> 08:04.240]  Bernie, what do you think?
[08:04.660 --> 08:05.860]  I think it is technical.
[08:06.140 --> 08:08.800]  I mean, healthcare is a highly technical, specialized field.
[08:08.980 --> 08:13.940]  And how it's administered requires a lot of technical things, networks.
[08:13.940 --> 08:17.420]  And I think this is a very topical, technical topic.
[08:18.460 --> 08:19.080]  So there.
[08:20.460 --> 08:21.360]  Thank you for that.
[08:21.780 --> 08:23.080]  But yeah, we are going to move on.
[08:23.360 --> 08:23.860]  Go ahead, Kyle.
[08:25.080 --> 08:26.580]  Suffice to say, it's ongoing.
[08:26.680 --> 08:31.800]  And we'll definitely probably have some interesting things to actually speak to in the future.
[08:31.880 --> 08:33.160]  Well, it was an education for me.
[08:33.380 --> 08:35.540]  I knew that they had a system up there.
[08:35.540 --> 08:39.120]  I had no idea it was so inexpensive when something like this happened.
[08:39.120 --> 08:42.480]  And I had no idea how direct they were as far as just getting things dealt with.
[08:42.800 --> 08:44.700]  And how ridiculous it is here.
[08:44.820 --> 08:45.660]  Because they just...
[08:45.660 --> 08:47.480]  They don't want to cooperate.
[08:47.480 --> 08:49.080]  And it's really frustrating.
[08:49.300 --> 08:50.560]  I mean, I have a question, Emmanuel.
[08:50.780 --> 08:53.660]  So you said this whole procedure costs less than $600.
[08:53.940 --> 08:54.140]  Yes.
[08:55.180 --> 08:59.760]  How do the healthcare authorities in Canada profit on such low prices?
[09:00.040 --> 09:01.920]  I don't know if they do profit, Mike.
[09:01.920 --> 09:06.860]  I think maybe it's a service they provide to their people from the government.
[09:07.000 --> 09:08.740]  I mean, clearly the doctors are getting paid.
[09:08.840 --> 09:09.920]  So I'm not so worried about them.
[09:10.080 --> 09:14.760]  But the administrators, like there must not just be that many of them for such low prices.
[09:14.940 --> 09:15.880]  Maybe, maybe not.
[09:16.040 --> 09:16.960]  Maybe there are a few less.
[09:16.960 --> 09:19.340]  Well, I think it's just the bigger picture.
[09:19.540 --> 09:29.860]  Like the whole system, it's cheaper to get people in and cared for and then back out into the world doing their thing as healthy participants of the community.
[09:30.020 --> 09:31.460]  And so I think that's the bottom line.
[09:31.640 --> 09:38.040]  And here, we'd rather try to get people recurring and continue to be sick.
[09:38.160 --> 09:42.320]  And if you look at it in too cynical a way, I think that's all you see.
[09:42.320 --> 09:44.400]  But there's definitely progress to be made.
[09:44.480 --> 09:51.960]  And I'm definitely going to change some of the way I do like health and insurance stuff.
[09:52.140 --> 10:00.360]  Well, literally, if you get sick, if something happens to you, and you're close to the border, you're better off running over the border and asking for help over there.
[10:00.500 --> 10:01.220]  It'll be cheaper.
[10:01.300 --> 10:01.900]  It'll be faster.
[10:02.100 --> 10:02.840]  It'll probably be more effective.
[10:02.960 --> 10:03.040]  Rob?
[10:03.180 --> 10:11.280]  On a purely technical, technological level, I'm admiring the craftsmanship of your Canadian cast, which apparently they have plaster of Paris of Ontario now.
[10:11.280 --> 10:12.760]  And it's very well made.
[10:12.860 --> 10:14.340]  It takes marker ink very well.
[10:14.560 --> 10:21.720]  And yeah, I applaud you for bringing this technology over to our people where we might explore and understand it.
[10:21.900 --> 10:23.400]  No, I really appreciate that.
[10:23.420 --> 10:24.700]  That's the first compliment I've got.
[10:24.840 --> 10:30.480]  And I've actually been considering adding some microcontrollers and perhaps an access point or something to the cast.
[10:31.540 --> 10:41.420]  But yeah, it's one of those things that I'm very, very lucky and I'm learning a lot about this technology.
[10:41.880 --> 10:44.660]  So anyway, what are real hackers doing?
[10:45.180 --> 10:46.820]  Tell me you've got something.
[10:46.980 --> 10:49.020]  Is there a news story?
[10:49.200 --> 10:52.680]  Is there some real hacking that I could learn about?
[10:52.900 --> 10:53.400]  Real hacking?
[10:53.400 --> 10:56.080]  Well, there's plenty of real hacking going on all the time.
[10:56.260 --> 10:59.080]  There is some good news in the hacker world.
[10:59.860 --> 11:09.680]  We were talking last week, I think you guys actually were talking about this last week, about the public selfie issue and how you can get in trouble in some places for taking pictures of buildings.
[11:09.960 --> 11:10.840]  I heard a lot of them.
[11:11.340 --> 11:15.980]  And a German pirate who, by the way, Kyle and I, we met her at CCC Congress.
[11:16.480 --> 11:17.120]  Julia Reddick.
[11:17.220 --> 11:18.080]  Yeah, she does.
[11:18.440 --> 11:21.660]  According to this article, she saved our right to take public selfies.
[11:22.180 --> 11:23.680]  Not our right, but Europeans are right.
[11:23.700 --> 11:24.380]  Well, Europeans are right.
[11:24.700 --> 11:25.320]  That's true.
[11:25.500 --> 11:26.640]  And maybe our right someday.
[11:26.800 --> 11:28.840]  Yeah, I mean, we can go to Europe and take these pictures.
[11:29.020 --> 11:29.680]  That's useful.
[11:30.240 --> 11:37.960]  Yeah, but it's fighting this concept of designs and aesthetics, skylines even, lighting shows.
[11:38.160 --> 11:41.160]  There's the example for the Eiffel Tower and so on and so forth.
[11:41.340 --> 11:54.840]  But it's this concept of reasonable use and the reasonable ability for people to recreate, remix, whatever you want to call it, reinterpret and reimagine.
[11:55.080 --> 12:15.360]  I mean, it's all of this copyright stuff that is taken too far that basically gets things blocked out and makes people basically feel like they're criminals if they're doing something as ordinary as taking a photograph or using the likeness of something that is in a public space.
[12:16.700 --> 12:27.760]  One thing that was a little bit unclear to me from the news articles around this is if the problem was that the laws were not harmonized across the EU.
[12:27.760 --> 12:32.000]  So in some countries, it's legal to take pictures of buildings and in other countries, it is not.
[12:32.140 --> 12:40.960]  And it's clear that in the countries where it was already legal to take pictures of buildings, it remains legal, which is a pretty big victory given the way copyright law usually works.
[12:41.240 --> 12:54.400]  It's not clear to me and maybe one of our listeners who knows more about EU legislative process than I do can tell us if it's now legal across the EU or just in the countries where it was already legal.
[12:54.400 --> 12:57.980]  Yes, and since you can't call yet, we will have phones soon.
[12:58.060 --> 12:59.340]  In fact, we even got our phone number.
[12:59.420 --> 13:00.360]  It says 718 number.
[13:00.460 --> 13:01.040]  That's going to be fun.
[13:01.900 --> 13:06.880]  You can write to us, OTH at 20600.com, with all of your comments and suggestions.
[13:07.780 --> 13:13.300]  And yeah, we know... Why is Rob throwing the paper at me?
[13:13.300 --> 13:14.420]  He's throwing paper balls.
[13:14.680 --> 13:17.640]  I just realized now that the wall doesn't go all the way to the ceiling.
[13:17.860 --> 13:22.600]  So we can actually throw things at the people outside in the hall who are louder than we are right now.
[13:22.600 --> 13:23.780]  We're sending feedback.
[13:25.020 --> 13:25.940]  It's pretty unbelievable.
[13:27.140 --> 13:32.100]  Bernie, let me throw it over to you, because actually you're not in the studio, so it'll be a lot quieter.
[13:33.020 --> 13:38.560]  Have you ever had a situation where you are taking a picture of something and someone tells you you're not allowed to take a picture of that?
[13:40.760 --> 13:41.480]  I have.
[13:41.620 --> 13:42.100]  Today, I mean?
[13:42.100 --> 13:49.080]  Well, not today, but a few years ago, I was at a PATCO.
[13:49.320 --> 13:54.540]  That's a New Jersey mass transit system on the other side of Philadelphia, across the Delaware River.
[13:54.700 --> 13:58.640]  I was at a PATCO station taking pictures of something.
[13:58.820 --> 14:07.920]  Actually, I was making photographs for a court case I had about a fare evasion thing that I inadvertently didn't pay a fare, because there was no place to...
[14:07.920 --> 14:12.260]  I paid for it, but it was one of these new...it was a new system where you had to validate the ticket.
[14:12.420 --> 14:13.800]  They just rolled this new train out.
[14:13.900 --> 14:18.720]  And I was familiar with validating tickets in Europe, but I'd never seen it in the U.S.
[14:19.020 --> 14:21.600]  So I got nabbed for...anyway.
[14:21.820 --> 14:25.640]  And I went to take...the judge said he should bring some pictures back of these signs that you said weren't there.
[14:26.280 --> 14:30.660]  And so I went to take pictures, and the guard said, I've got...you can't take pictures.
[14:30.660 --> 14:31.220]  It's illegal.
[14:31.760 --> 14:33.320]  We've got terrorists coming in and out of here.
[14:33.420 --> 14:33.780]  I was like, really?
[14:33.820 --> 14:34.100]  You do?
[14:34.520 --> 14:43.100]  Well, maybe you should go after...I asked him to cite the law, and he got on the radio, and he got back and said, his two-way radio, he said, well, it's a law, but it's not written down anywhere.
[14:44.600 --> 14:46.140]  So, it happens.
[14:47.040 --> 14:53.980]  Yeah, and that's...it speaks to this greater theme of...of getting things a bit more unified as far as how they're enforced.
[14:53.980 --> 15:00.360]  I know certain videos and...and things online, like with YouTube services and so on.
[15:00.620 --> 15:07.860]  They're...the way...certain videos are allowed in...in certain countries and other countries, say, like Germany, or...they're not...they're going to have different laws.
[15:08.000 --> 15:19.360]  So that was the...the definite...crux of this kind of thing is...is...is...as Mike said, evening it as far as how it is handled across European countries.
[15:19.780 --> 15:27.020]  Well, I mean, something as stupid as taking a picture of the Eiffel Tower and being told, that you're not allowed to do that unless you pay a certain fee because it's copywritten.
[15:28.480 --> 15:34.700]  It's...that's the kind of thing I imagine this is...is...is...is...basically negating, this kind of a ruling.
[15:35.420 --> 15:42.240]  I've never actually come across something that stupid in this country, but I...I imagine there are people there that would be very much in favor of that.
[15:42.420 --> 15:52.140]  Yeah, well, and then getting some uniformity and...and sort of a common understanding of what...what the right idea of how to handle this stuff is...is really important.
[15:52.140 --> 16:02.180]  Because in some places you have people there feel it, you know, feel it must be interpreted in really...uh...in one way that's...that's particularly harsh, whereas other places things are more flexible.
[16:02.440 --> 16:02.820]  Excuse me.
[16:02.860 --> 16:03.160]  I'm sorry.
[16:03.460 --> 16:04.660]  This is just too absurd.
[16:05.700 --> 16:07.020]  I...I might just pass me a note.
[16:07.500 --> 16:13.860]  Apparently there is people stuck in the elevator outside the...outside our...our studio and the fire department is outside banging on walls?
[16:14.020 --> 16:15.780]  I think they're no longer stuck, but...
[16:15.780 --> 16:18.300]  So, that's all that noise we're hearing is a fire department.
[16:18.940 --> 16:19.900]  Boy, it's this place.
[16:19.900 --> 16:20.620]  I can't really tell...
[16:20.620 --> 16:21.020]  I love it.
[16:21.180 --> 16:22.140]  This is live radio.
[16:22.280 --> 16:25.320]  You won't see this on...on WNYC, I'll tell you that right now.
[16:25.600 --> 16:26.660]  Well, they have soundproofing.
[16:26.920 --> 16:27.720]  They have soundproofing.
[16:27.720 --> 16:28.780]  There's people stuck in their elevators.
[16:28.780 --> 16:33.520]  They got studios with air conditioning, all these things that just run counter to community radio.
[16:33.620 --> 16:34.900]  They...they actually don't have elevators.
[16:35.020 --> 16:36.760]  They hire people to carry them up and down the stairs.
[16:37.400 --> 16:37.820]  All right.
[16:37.820 --> 16:42.640]  I thought it was a heavy...heavy wrestling match going on in the hallway, but I guess...uh...now let's explain...listen to that.
[16:42.640 --> 16:43.700]  Um, okay.
[16:44.000 --> 16:46.020]  Uh, other things going on in the hacker world.
[16:46.240 --> 16:47.940]  Uh, the Pirate Bay founders have been acquitted.
[16:48.320 --> 16:49.060]  That's good news, right?
[16:49.640 --> 16:50.040]  Yay!
[16:50.900 --> 16:52.220]  I hear Bernie cheering from...
[16:52.220 --> 16:52.720]  Bernie's cheering.
[16:52.920 --> 16:53.320]  Yeah, somewhere.
[16:53.800 --> 16:54.980]  Um, well, okay.
[16:55.180 --> 16:58.280]  Uh, four key Pirate Bay figures have, uh, a little something to celebrate.
[16:58.600 --> 17:10.480]  After standing accused of committing criminal copyright infringement and abusing electronic communications, a Belgian court has acquitted for the, the, the, the, uh, standing trial of, um, of any criminal charges.
[17:10.480 --> 17:12.400]  And that's, um, that's good, right?
[17:13.280 --> 17:16.560]  I mean, they, they're still...are they not in jail currently?
[17:16.740 --> 17:20.720]  There's, they've still been convicted in other countries, but I guess it's good they're not getting convicted again.
[17:21.280 --> 17:23.220]  Uh, okay, that confuses me.
[17:23.440 --> 17:25.540]  Uh, they've been convicted in some countries and not others?
[17:25.660 --> 17:30.820]  I, you know, I'm gonna get the...I'm not sure, but they've definitely been charged in other countries.
[17:31.340 --> 17:34.680]  And this is the Belgian case, and I guess the Belgian case got dismissed.
[17:34.800 --> 17:36.160]  But they, weren't they in jail in Sweden?
[17:36.220 --> 17:37.440]  I should really know the answer to that.
[17:38.760 --> 17:40.880]  Nobody knows the answer as to whether these guys...
[17:40.880 --> 17:41.460]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[17:41.660 --> 17:42.040]  They were.
[17:42.500 --> 17:47.260]  I'm reading an article here, um, from, uh, well, torrentfreak.com.
[17:47.420 --> 18:03.520]  It says, uh, um, indeed, for at least a second, for at least a year of that period, I guess it was a multi-year period, Svartholm was in jail in Sweden while connecting in Lundström to the site a decade after his last involvement, which was purely financial,
[18:03.960 --> 18:05.500]  has always been somewhat ridiculous.
[18:05.680 --> 18:07.080]  I guess this is in kind of broken English.
[18:07.480 --> 18:11.200]  But yeah, the guy was in, Guy Svartholm was in jail for at least a year.
[18:11.580 --> 18:14.720]  That's really, for, for copyright, this is really crazy.
[18:15.740 --> 18:16.180]  Right.
[18:16.920 --> 18:26.120]  Yeah, there's, uh, there's a quote in the story from the Belgian Entertainment Association, which is their, uh, basically their, their, uh, anti-piracy, um, adversaries in the case.
[18:26.120 --> 18:29.860]  And they, even they, in this case, uh, say, technically speaking, we agree with the court.
[18:30.060 --> 18:34.260]  So even they agree that there is no case in, in Belgian court against, uh, against these gentlemen.
[18:34.520 --> 18:36.600]  So are they free or are they still in prison somewhere?
[18:38.300 --> 18:38.700]  Okay.
[18:38.720 --> 18:39.780]  We don't know anything.
[18:40.640 --> 18:46.680]  Uh, we should know this and please write to us, OTH at 2600.com and we'll try and find out where these people are.
[18:46.800 --> 18:54.320]  I feel like they were like detained after being busted again, or some machines shut down again, something to that effect.
[18:54.500 --> 18:55.860]  And then they sprang back up.
[18:56.140 --> 19:04.200]  Technically we're back online, but, um, crucial members had been, uh, sort of entangled after the, the latest shutdown, but that's all vague.
[19:04.300 --> 19:05.160]  I'm just, I'm guessing.
[19:05.260 --> 19:10.740]  It's just, there's so many people being arrested and detained and interrogated that it's hard to keep track of them all.
[19:11.160 --> 19:15.940]  And, uh, yeah, we need a full-time staff just to, uh, just to keep pace here.
[19:16.040 --> 19:23.300]  According to the story, which was, uh, from Torrent Freak, uh, yes, they, they do stand convicted elsewhere, but, uh, this was a separate case against them in Belgium under which they've been acquitted.
[19:23.440 --> 19:31.340]  So it's helpful in that it's, uh, changing or setting a precedent there, even if, if the, they are not, they are still, uh, entangled in cases elsewhere.
[19:31.940 --> 19:32.380]  Okay.
[19:32.660 --> 19:40.180]  Uh, we also have, uh, a couple of updates on the hacking team, um, a story from, from last week that we talked about at length.
[19:40.600 --> 19:52.060]  Uh, there was a, a, a lot coming out of this, a lot of, um, uh, interesting emails and, uh, and revelations from, um, uh, from the, well, how the register described it as a raid.
[19:52.180 --> 20:02.940]  You might call it a hack or a leak or something, but all kinds of emails, all kinds of statements, all kinds of, um, of, uh, uh, exploits that were revealed as a result of this.
[20:02.940 --> 20:08.020]  I think it's a, a terrific thing that somebody actually went in there and exposed all of this.
[20:08.100 --> 20:10.240]  And, and, and I think we're all safer for it.
[20:10.380 --> 20:25.000]  Uh, but one thing that's clear from reading through the trove of over 1 million emails from the Italian surveillance firm hacking team is that its employees despise activists, many of whom have been criticizing them for years about their disregard for human rights.
[20:25.280 --> 20:41.760]  Uh, Christopher Soigen, uh, the ACLU's principal technologist and an outspoken advocate for privacy and free speech noticed last Thursday that hacking team employee Dan, uh, Daniel Milan joked about gathering enough bitcoins to pay for his assassination.
[20:42.100 --> 20:42.780]  Yes.
[20:43.000 --> 20:45.760]  Uh, uh, that email was dated April 16th.
[20:46.080 --> 20:49.640]  Um, basically translated into English.
[20:49.640 --> 20:51.060]  And this is one, one translation.
[20:51.240 --> 20:54.520]  I'm very tempted to respond, but we would only unleash hell.
[20:54.640 --> 20:57.620]  I think it's self-evident what an imbecile Sogoyan is.
[20:57.680 --> 20:58.160]  And I apologize.
[20:58.160 --> 20:59.620]  I'm probably mispronouncing that name.
[20:59.760 --> 21:03.620]  If I could gather up enough Bitcoin, I would use a service from the darknet and eliminate him.
[21:03.920 --> 21:08.020]  An asshole of this caliber doesn't deserve to continue to consume oxygen.
[21:08.860 --> 21:15.160]  Uh, and, um, according to this, uh, this story, which appears on firstlook.org, uh, actually the intercept.
[21:15.420 --> 21:21.600]  Uh, if I gather up a Italian reader writes, if I gather up enough Bitcoin, this is another translation.
[21:21.600 --> 21:26.360]  I will is apparently the other way of trans if you really care about how it was phrased.
[21:26.480 --> 21:36.120]  Uh, anyway, the same day that email was sent, hacking team had tweeted an article opposing Bitcoin, blaming the cryptocurrency for helping pedophiles hide from the authorities saying this has to be stopped.
[21:36.340 --> 21:38.620]  Because Bitcoin is, is the reason for all of that, apparently.
[21:39.300 --> 21:50.100]  Uh, now, um, uh, Sgoyan, um, shot back, uh, asking if Ethiopia was using its hacking team malware to go after child porn or to go after journalists.
[21:50.500 --> 21:54.080]  Apparently that is what, uh, what earned him, uh, their wrath.
[21:54.240 --> 21:57.720]  Uh, hacking team sells malware to governments around the world.
[21:57.920 --> 21:58.860]  I don't know if they still do it.
[21:58.860 --> 22:00.180]  Are they still even in business?
[22:00.500 --> 22:02.220]  I mean, they're certainly trying to be.
[22:02.820 --> 22:03.480]  Well, okay.
[22:03.480 --> 22:07.820]  But if I'm a government somewhere and I want to buy some malware, I can still do it from hacking team.
[22:07.920 --> 22:08.920]  They will still sell me malware.
[22:09.100 --> 22:10.120]  They'll take your money as far as I'm aware.
[22:10.140 --> 22:10.960]  I'm sure they will.
[22:11.500 --> 22:18.000]  Um, anyway, uh, The exciting bit is that some of their malware is being rendered ineffective because it's now known how it works.
[22:18.140 --> 22:20.420]  So flash has been patched a couple of times.
[22:20.560 --> 22:23.940]  Apparently it still has to be patched a couple more because that's how many holes they found in it.
[22:24.080 --> 22:25.540]  Well, we're going to get into flash in a second.
[22:25.960 --> 22:29.760]  But yeah, it's, you know, I'm sure they're, uh, thanks for that, Kyle.
[22:29.920 --> 22:34.400]  I don't know if that went on the air, but, um, uh, I didn't even see that.
[22:34.680 --> 22:34.940]  Yeah.
[22:35.100 --> 22:41.840]  Well, um, our listeners are just going to have to not know what we're talking about because I can't, can't find the words.
[22:42.140 --> 22:53.460]  Uh, but it's exciting to hear that their, their capabilities are being diminished, but I'm sure they're working hard on getting new capabilities and, uh, relying on the fact that some people just won't patch their systems.
[22:53.680 --> 23:02.160]  And the thing is, um, even if hacking team themselves are not a reputable vendor of this sort of thing anymore, there are other companies who are in the same business.
[23:02.340 --> 23:08.660]  And I think, uh, the whole hacking team has served to open this world up a little bit to people who aren't otherwise aware that, uh, yes, this is going on.
[23:08.780 --> 23:13.420]  Yes, there are shady people, um, vending shady software to, uh, shady interests like governments.
[23:13.760 --> 23:15.620]  And, uh, yeah, this thing does go on.
[23:16.800 --> 23:17.200]  Emmanuel?
[23:17.880 --> 23:19.140]  Uh, Kyle first, then Bernie.
[23:19.860 --> 23:24.580]  Oh, I was just going to say that would be a cool infographic of different calibers of assholes.
[23:25.000 --> 23:27.100]  You gun nuts out there can probably help contribute.
[23:28.080 --> 23:28.440]  Yes.
[23:28.520 --> 23:31.040]  And of course, that email address, OTH at 2600.com.
[23:31.100 --> 23:35.780]  Let's clear our, our, uh, our internet path so that the emails can just start pouring in now.
[23:35.960 --> 23:36.400]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[23:37.140 --> 23:56.680]  Oh, I just say what, uh, what this hacking team, uh, so-called hacking team company member, uh, the, the, the, the threat, um, against, uh, this, uh, EFF, uh, attorney's life, um, not a public threat, but it's, it's sort of a secret threat or like a plan to kill this guy.
[23:56.840 --> 23:58.480]  Uh, maybe tongue in cheek, maybe not.
[23:58.660 --> 24:17.700]  It seems even less, uh, uh, less severe than what, uh, uh, Barrett Brown was accused of doing with, with, with basically spouting off, uh, about the, uh, the, uh, the, the worthless life of a, uh, of, uh, uh, uh, of federal law enforcement agent, which earned him several years in prison.
[24:17.840 --> 24:29.100]  So if this hacking team company had been in, in the United States, it would be interesting to see if, if the feds would, uh, would, would, would prosecute this, uh, this guy as severely as they prosecuted Barrett Brown.
[24:29.340 --> 24:44.140]  Well, you know, they wouldn't because if you, if you say something about, uh, a cop or an FBI agent in a even mildly threatening tone, that's, that's a hundred times worse than saying, uh, a threatening thing and maybe even issuing a direct threat, uh,
[24:44.380 --> 24:47.620]  to an activist such as, such as this person or, or anyone else.
[24:47.640 --> 24:51.880]  It's, it's sickening the way that, uh, uh, uh, that, that, that people are treated.
[24:52.140 --> 24:56.320]  I mean, to be clear, this was a very poor joke, but a joke nonetheless.
[24:56.500 --> 25:01.800]  I don't think that, uh, Shigoyan has any need to fear for his life based on this email.
[25:02.260 --> 25:09.720]  And, uh, if the government would have, you know, that kind of reason in other cases, I think that would be better off.
[25:09.780 --> 25:12.880]  I don't think calling for a prosecution here is the world we want to live in.
[25:13.040 --> 25:13.220]  Yeah.
[25:13.340 --> 25:20.620]  I, I don't want to play that game, but it's just, it is important to point out the hypocrisy and how, uh, the same standards are, are not applied.
[25:20.620 --> 25:24.780]  People actually go to prison for saying, for basically, uh, speaking with their emotions.
[25:25.100 --> 25:30.120]  And then when it's the other side, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's just forgiven and ignored.
[25:30.160 --> 25:32.500]  Just like, you know, what's going on here?
[25:32.900 --> 25:37.840]  They are, uh, what I was reading before, they sell malware to governments around the world.
[25:38.040 --> 25:39.360]  Now think about that.
[25:39.460 --> 25:50.700]  They're selling, uh, these exploits and then these exploits are being used to break into computers, to, uh, to, to basically, uh, take certain people or entities offline.
[25:51.500 --> 25:56.880]  If we did that as activists, as individual people, they would throw the book at us.
[25:56.960 --> 25:59.620]  We would be in prison for many, many years here.
[25:59.980 --> 26:05.080]  No one's blinking an eye at the fact that this company can just with impunity sell these things.
[26:06.060 --> 26:09.600]  To me, it's offensive just to sell something, uh, like this in the first place.
[26:09.680 --> 26:14.480]  If you find an exploit, you tell people about it and you, uh, you spread the word about it and maybe it gets fixed.
[26:14.580 --> 26:18.100]  Maybe it doesn't depending on, on how, uh, how much integrity the company has.
[26:18.560 --> 26:28.300]  But in this particular case, they're just, they're just blatantly selling this to governments to basically, um, uh, intimidate and, and silence people.
[26:28.420 --> 26:31.320]  That is something that I just think is, is worthy of note.
[26:31.420 --> 26:32.900]  That's not being focused on nearly enough.
[26:33.060 --> 26:33.260]  Rob?
[26:33.560 --> 26:43.940]  And the thing about this, even if it is a joke, and, uh, I kind of want to high five, uh, Chris Segoian because you, you know, as an activist, uh, that if you're pissing off the bad guys to this degree, you're probably doing something right.
[26:44.360 --> 26:56.860]  But, uh, but the thing about this is this, this email in particular, okay, you can say, oh, it was just a joke, but it's just the sort of thing that the people who use hacking teams products to, uh, crack into the email of, you know, their targets would love to find and,
[26:56.860 --> 26:58.180]  uh, then use for their own ends.
[26:58.300 --> 27:05.640]  So this, this whole fiasco has just been a nice, uh, a nice, basically a nice look at, uh, hacking team getting a taste of their own medicine, I think.
[27:06.180 --> 27:06.520]  Absolutely.
[27:06.800 --> 27:07.100]  Absolutely.
[27:07.400 --> 27:18.500]  And, um, uh, the fact that they had all of their email exposed tells you something about, uh, their, um, their expertise in security themselves.
[27:18.540 --> 27:22.540]  I don't know exactly what the exploit, what, uh, used against them was.
[27:22.620 --> 27:24.080]  Maybe it was just an easy to guess password.
[27:24.200 --> 27:26.660]  Maybe it was something a bit more complicated than that.
[27:26.760 --> 27:30.000]  But this is information that people deserve to know about.
[27:30.100 --> 27:39.220]  And I think it's a perfect example of how true hacking, true hacking can be a really, really good thing when, when used properly.
[27:39.580 --> 27:46.000]  Uh, because this information was not, uh, sequestered or held back or, or just given to the authorities.
[27:46.120 --> 27:47.960]  It was shared with the world.
[27:48.160 --> 27:52.480]  Anybody can download all this information and see exactly what these people were up to.
[27:52.960 --> 27:56.180]  And we've got our copy and we'll be going through it.
[27:56.280 --> 27:58.140]  And, uh, you should have your copy too.
[27:58.200 --> 28:02.940]  And I think if you go to wikileaks.org, you will be able to search, look for your name.
[28:03.180 --> 28:04.660]  Maybe they're threatening you.
[28:04.820 --> 28:09.540]  Maybe they're talking about you or put in anything you want and see what, what they're, what they're saying there.
[28:10.200 --> 28:16.120]  Um, anyway, uh, so going, and as you said, Rob, um, is not really that shaken up by all of this.
[28:16.280 --> 28:18.980]  Uh, he says he feels pretty good about the assassination joke.
[28:19.080 --> 28:22.220]  In fact, I've been sad all day since I learned about Casper.
[28:22.320 --> 28:26.480]  That's referring to prominent privacy advocate Casper Bowden, uh, who died last week.
[28:26.480 --> 28:27.720]  He said, this cheered me up.
[28:27.840 --> 28:30.800]  Uh, if they are making jokes like this, it means I am doing the right thing.
[28:30.880 --> 28:38.160]  And I think that's what people need to remember when you get the right people angry at you and threatening you feel good about that because you are doing the right thing.
[28:38.320 --> 28:39.920]  Um, you can get it from WikiLeaks.
[28:40.040 --> 28:44.680]  I think they've, they've got the emails up there in sort of a sorted, uh, searchable way.
[28:44.800 --> 28:50.740]  So that was only part of the 400 gigs of, of stuff that was, that was made available.
[28:50.920 --> 28:59.780]  They probably also have, uh, links to torrents of the entire, um, package of data and that there's other mirrors and, and stuff of mainly torrents.
[28:59.920 --> 29:10.320]  Um, not a lot of people that are hosting the entire thing, but, um, the more time, uh, and, and, uh, public, you know, discussion, the more, uh, people are going to download it and share it.
[29:10.400 --> 29:14.540]  And, and, uh, the more people will see it and see what, see it for what it is.
[29:14.680 --> 29:15.640]  Uh, and, and so on.
[29:15.800 --> 29:27.880]  Now, I just want people to imagine just for a moment, a world without WikiLeaks, without a way of getting that information out, a world without EFF, without lawyers, uh, that will fight this kind of garbage.
[29:28.200 --> 29:40.600]  And the ACLU, of course, as well, a world without hackers that will risk their own freedom to break into systems and expose corruption and, and evil doing of all sorts.
[29:40.920 --> 29:42.900]  This is what we speak about week after week.
[29:42.900 --> 29:44.240]  And this is why it's important.
[29:44.400 --> 30:01.280]  I don't think there's been a better case than this in, in years that shows just how, uh, how, how, uh, governments and corporations and, um, evil doers will stoop to any level to silence those people that they either fear or disagree with, or just who are,
[30:01.340 --> 30:04.820]  who are inconvenient in, in getting their, their end goals.
[30:04.920 --> 30:16.380]  Now that this, this company, uh, hacking team said that they, they didn't sell their, um, their exploits to, um, uh, uh, to dictatorial governments or, or specific governments.
[30:16.700 --> 30:21.200]  And the email shows that they were in fact having, uh, having business dealings with them.
[30:21.200 --> 30:25.280]  I mean, they're the FPR people who are very good at taking very little lines.
[30:25.400 --> 30:33.480]  So they probably didn't sell to any countries that are officially embargoed, uh, by the EU or, or, or where they operate or maybe by some other countries.
[30:33.640 --> 30:39.340]  But there are plenty of evil regimes out there that are among their clients and they were happy to sell.
[30:39.500 --> 30:44.600]  They were happy to go, you know, as far as the law would allow them to go and probably further.
[30:45.180 --> 30:49.980]  The law in Ethiopia, of course, allows the Ethiopian government to do whatever it wants.
[30:50.120 --> 30:52.340]  The law in so many other countries allows the same thing.
[30:52.680 --> 30:56.660]  So it's good that we're able to see, you know, what that means.
[30:57.320 --> 31:02.480]  I think it's also interesting to look at some of the invoices and see just how much money is floating around with this stuff.
[31:02.700 --> 31:03.860]  It's, it's ridiculous.
[31:04.440 --> 31:08.380]  Uh, this is almost, this is like a second wave of like security industries.
[31:08.420 --> 31:20.260]  I mean, we had a lot of antivirus stuff and now it's just like, it is this like in vogue thing to, um, to charge out tons and tons of money, uh, to whomever has it, right?
[31:20.500 --> 31:38.000]  Um, the institutions and governments looking for quote expertise and, uh, to kind of not think really twice about, um, where this information, where the technology is, is headed and just focus on remodeling whatever, you know, part of your kitchen or,
[31:38.000 --> 31:42.480]  or, uh, lifestyle you need to, uh, expend the money on.
[31:42.660 --> 31:43.760]  And that's sickening.
[31:43.880 --> 31:51.460]  It's really disgusting and makes you want to spit like on people who participate in that or at least in their vicinity.
[31:51.880 --> 31:52.320]  Yes.
[31:52.320 --> 31:54.040]  I think that's a fair, a fair reaction.
[31:54.220 --> 31:55.900]  Bernie, your, uh, 10 cents on this.
[31:56.320 --> 32:15.280]  Well, um, I agree with, uh, with Kyle on that I'm disgusted by this, but, uh, we need to remember that our own national security agencies, uh, actions, uh, dwarf those by probably orders of magnitude, dwarf those of the so-called hacking team company.
[32:15.520 --> 32:35.160]  So we have to be mindful of what our own government is doing with our own taxpayer dollars, uh, uh, that is just like I said, orders of magnitude of greater, um, damage and, uh, magnitude and quantity than anything this hacking team group did.
[32:35.340 --> 32:36.000]  True, true.
[32:36.160 --> 32:45.460]  I'm, I'm with you on that, Bernie, but I will say that a large part of the DOD, a large part of the NSA, look at what Snowden, he worked for a contractor, right?
[32:45.620 --> 32:47.300]  Look at the DOD, right?
[32:47.400 --> 32:48.240]  What is Blackwater?
[32:48.340 --> 32:49.200]  What are mercenaries, right?
[32:49.300 --> 32:54.320]  What are these different private entities that are then subbed out by our government?
[32:54.720 --> 33:05.920]  I mean, a large percentage of the DOD budget is really going to private third, fourth, fifth party contractors that are part of larger bids and, and so on and so forth.
[33:06.100 --> 33:14.440]  And it helps, uh, keep deniability and, uh, uh, and oversight as, as diffuse and vague and hard to reach as possible.
[33:14.660 --> 33:19.120]  So, I mean, that's, I don't know, I could go on and on, but, uh, I'm with you in part.
[33:19.620 --> 33:21.180]  These companies market this stuff.
[33:21.320 --> 33:25.380]  They come up with these, what I think are evil things, and they market them.
[33:25.500 --> 33:27.720]  They market them to our government and to other governments.
[33:28.340 --> 33:38.200]  Um, the fact that, you know, come up with these things, a way to, uh, way to invade people's privacy, um, no matter who they are, and, and then market these things.
[33:38.780 --> 33:41.520]  I bet the whole thing is just, as you said, sick and disgusting.
[33:41.940 --> 33:46.340]  But we just, all we got to do is try to make people aware of it, and that's what we're doing here.
[33:46.380 --> 33:46.700]  Yeah.
[33:46.860 --> 33:49.740]  So when you ask your friends, like, Hey, how's work going, dude?
[33:49.960 --> 33:58.240]  And like, want to have a drink and so on, you know, listen hard and, and really think about like who your peers are, who your friends are and what they're really doing.
[33:59.080 --> 34:08.940]  It's funny too, that, um, all the things that hackers are accused of doing, uh, uh, bringing down systems, invading people's privacy, that is what these people were doing.
[34:09.120 --> 34:10.860]  And hackers are the ones exposing it.
[34:11.080 --> 34:16.460]  Remember that, remember that, uh, when you read stories about this, how this actually played out.
[34:16.660 --> 34:25.500]  And Mike, I, I, I heard what you were saying last week when you were talking with Kyle about, uh, about the future of hacking team and how, um, it doesn't really matter.
[34:25.860 --> 34:27.200]  Uh, they're going to come back.
[34:27.480 --> 34:31.420]  And even if they didn't come back, uh, there'd be somebody to, to replace them.
[34:31.480 --> 34:32.540]  I think we all agree on that.
[34:32.660 --> 34:34.860]  It's probably hundreds of companies like this already.
[34:35.680 --> 34:50.340]  Um, but would we not feel better if we could ensure that hacking team does not operate anymore and that everybody who is named that is affiliated with them does not have this kind of power ever again?
[34:50.340 --> 34:58.680]  I know I'd feel better just knowing that, uh, we made it so difficult for them that they couldn't possibly, uh, step up and, and do this kind of crap anymore.
[34:58.680 --> 34:59.200]  All right.
[34:59.360 --> 35:09.620]  What I'm about to say, I really hope I'm wrong, but, uh, I suspect that you will never be able to accomplish, uh, your second goal there of getting these people out of this industry entirely.
[35:10.060 --> 35:21.420]  Uh, I don't even think you're going to accomplish the first goal of putting this company out of business, but, uh, I, I would be really surprised to learn that these people go on and do something, you know, nice with the rest of their lives.
[35:21.480 --> 35:23.700]  Well, I mean, I didn't mean, I didn't mean me, just me.
[35:23.780 --> 35:39.040]  I mean, everybody, if we all join forces and we name these people and we name this company and we follow them and make their lives miserable because they made a lot of lives miserable by, by, uh, by intimidating them and by invading their privacy and,
[35:39.140 --> 35:41.980]  and, and basically silencing them, we know who they are.
[35:42.100 --> 35:43.220]  We have all their emails now.
[35:43.340 --> 35:47.140]  We can, we can track them and, and, and give them a dose of their own medicine.
[35:47.320 --> 35:49.260]  I just think it would be a little bit of retributive justice.
[35:49.440 --> 35:49.600]  Yes.
[35:49.740 --> 35:54.800]  For it's whack-a-mole everyone you hit, another one's going to pop up someplace else, but it's a message.
[35:54.800 --> 36:00.160]  And, uh, I, I just think that the overarching thing we can really impress is that it's not cool.
[36:00.340 --> 36:01.040]  It's not cool.
[36:01.160 --> 36:01.820]  Not cool dudes.
[36:01.960 --> 36:02.460]  Not cool.
[36:02.780 --> 36:04.440]  Let's, uh, let's make it uncool.
[36:04.600 --> 36:05.920]  That's a pretty powerful thing.
[36:06.100 --> 36:06.500]  All right.
[36:07.040 --> 36:14.420]  Uh, we, uh, we made reference just a moment ago to a privacy campaigner, Casper Bowden, uh, who passed away last week.
[36:14.540 --> 36:20.000]  He was Microsoft's former head of privacy and an extremely respected independent privacy campaigner.
[36:20.100 --> 36:21.880]  He died after a battle with cancer.
[36:22.100 --> 36:24.940]  Uh, he was a popular outspoken figure in privacy advocacy.
[36:25.220 --> 36:32.660]  Uh, he was, uh, very active after the Snowden revelations of government surveillance, advising the European parliament among others.
[36:32.820 --> 36:47.380]  And it's just, it's an indication of how, uh, somebody can come even from Microsoft and make their lives truly mean something as far as, as far as just, um, protecting privacy, educating people, inspiring others.
[36:47.420 --> 36:52.000]  Uh, he was a co-founder of the UK based foundation for information policy research.
[36:52.180 --> 36:59.640]  Uh, he was also one of the primary dissenting voices, warning of possible government surveillance via backdoors within cloud computing services.
[36:59.640 --> 37:02.600]  And that was prior to the Edward Snowden revelations.
[37:02.720 --> 37:08.060]  Uh, and according to Bowden, that resulted in his dismissal from Microsoft back in 2011.
[37:08.500 --> 37:10.560]  He was combative and prickly.
[37:10.560 --> 37:14.420]  Casper was also unfailingly kind and generous at Ray Corrigan.
[37:14.540 --> 37:17.520]  He's a senior lecturer in technology at the open university.
[37:17.720 --> 37:30.840]  Casper was a big believer in a Rousian model of justice, a stickler when it came, uh, to the university of human rights and was unstinting in his criticism of corporate or government entities or agents who sought to undermine those rights and principles.
[37:31.460 --> 37:37.540]  Uh, Bowden was an advocate for the establishment of a pan European privacy rights organization, and he practiced what he preached.
[37:37.560 --> 37:42.500]  He was disillusioned by what he saw as an inability of European law to protect personal privacy.
[37:42.840 --> 37:51.900]  Um, he turned to technology sitting on the board of directors for the tour anonymizing service and advocating the use of the cubes OS secure operating system.
[37:52.320 --> 38:07.800]  Uh, so, um, that was the sad news from last week, the, uh, uh, the, uh, passing away of Casper Bowden, uh, and kind of, I guess, as a counterweight to what I was saying before is someone like, like, uh, Casper can inspire a hundred more people to come forward and,
[38:07.920 --> 38:17.760]  um, and, and maybe sacrifice, some of, um, some of their career, some of their, uh, freedom even, uh, to educate people to fight for the right causes.
[38:18.000 --> 38:21.880]  I think that, uh, that's something that he would truly approve of.
[38:22.060 --> 38:23.060]  Uh, Bernie, any thoughts on this?
[38:23.920 --> 38:38.840]  Um, well, I'm still thinking about the hypocrisy thing you were pointed out earlier and, and something just came across my eyes just moments ago about a presidential press conference that happened today when President Obama, um, speaking about something that had nothing to do with hacking,
[38:39.020 --> 38:43.820]  says he has, quote, a policy not to comment, quote, on cases in which legal action was pending.
[38:44.040 --> 38:51.340]  He was talking about revoking the, uh, somebody asked about revoking the Medal of Freedom from Bill Cosby, who, H, H, George W.
[38:51.400 --> 38:52.020]  Bush gave it to him.
[38:52.080 --> 38:53.380]  But that, that, that isn't the issue.
[38:53.480 --> 39:09.160]  The issue is, uh, President Obama did comment, um, quite a bit about the cases in which, uh, Chelsea Manning, then Bradley Manning, um, and Edward Snowden, um, both hacker-related cases and in which legal action was pending.
[39:09.600 --> 39:17.660]  And so I, I see a great deal of hypocrisy from our own president saying he has, quote, a policy not to comment, end quote, on cases in which legal action is pending.
[39:17.820 --> 39:22.680]  It seems like different rules apply to people in the hacker community than to everybody else.
[39:23.600 --> 39:24.040]  Absolutely.
[39:24.460 --> 39:26.540]  I mean, Bernie, but it's, it's broader than that.
[39:26.660 --> 39:29.480]  It's people, different rules apply to people with power and people without.
[39:30.560 --> 39:30.960]  Okay.
[39:31.280 --> 39:31.700]  That too.
[39:32.000 --> 39:33.020]  It scales to that, yeah.
[39:33.260 --> 39:34.480]  Yeah, and we, we know this.
[39:34.580 --> 39:35.000]  We know this.
[39:35.140 --> 39:36.620]  And it's, yeah, it's, it's a good point.
[39:36.780 --> 39:40.200]  And, uh, and, and, and, and well taken that, uh, this is, this is so obvious.
[39:40.560 --> 39:45.980]  Um, and I think we'll, we're going to continue to see that, uh, preferential treatment, different treatment.
[39:46.500 --> 39:48.560]  It's, um, it's just the name of the game.
[39:48.820 --> 39:53.740]  Uh, we said we were going to mention Flash as a, as an offshoot to the whole hacking team thing.
[39:54.060 --> 40:00.040]  Uh, and yes, Flash is too dangerous to run according to Firefox.
[40:00.280 --> 40:04.780]  Now, if you have Firefox, you might notice that Flash is blocked on it by default.
[40:04.900 --> 40:09.320]  You have to actually, uh, uh, jump through a couple of hoops to, um, uh, to get it to work.
[40:09.920 --> 40:13.520]  Uh, Mozilla has blocked Flash on its Firefox browser.
[40:13.720 --> 40:27.100]  A message now appears saying that Flash, the plugin that enables animation, browser games, other graphics online is vulnerable, along with a message that Mozilla reserves the right to block software that seriously compromises Firefox security.
[40:27.100 --> 40:32.900]  All of this, a result of the, uh, revelations from the hacking team raid.
[40:33.220 --> 40:35.280]  Uh, the ban is a temporary.
[40:35.280 --> 40:39.620]  It'll stay in place as long as there's a version of Flash with publicly known security problems.
[40:40.040 --> 40:42.160]  Adobe is working on a fix, we're told.
[40:42.320 --> 40:51.640]  Uh, if users really want to run Flash to view videos or use other Flash-based web tools, they can do so as long as they read a security warning from Mozilla first or run Chrome or something else.
[40:51.840 --> 40:56.740]  Uh, Mozilla is also advocating for a general end to using Flash as a web standard.
[40:57.320 --> 41:02.400]  Um, and that comes on the heels of another prominent call to bury Flash once and for all.
[41:02.840 --> 41:14.300]  Believe it or not, Facebook's chief information security officer, Alex Stamos, said on Twitter that he wants Adobe to set a deadline to kill Flash once and for all so that developers will move quickly off the old standard.
[41:14.440 --> 41:16.380]  Why is there such hostility towards Flash?
[41:17.400 --> 41:27.260]  Flash is a great example of, uh, of a piece of software that was started for one purpose way back when and has just, uh, spent the intervening two decades or so having crap added to it and added to it and added to it.
[41:27.380 --> 41:28.440]  So it's very bloated.
[41:28.600 --> 41:29.780]  It's very, uh, inefficient.
[41:30.140 --> 41:31.560]  It's very, uh, difficult to use.
[41:31.640 --> 41:32.900]  It's proprietary as all heck.
[41:33.000 --> 41:37.720]  It's not an open standard that, uh, just anybody can, uh, create content, uh, for easily.
[41:38.280 --> 41:45.280]  And, uh, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been sort of a thorn in the side of web designers since the nineties and, uh, I won't be sad to see it gone.
[41:45.560 --> 41:50.620]  A lot of the stuff that it does, uh, have been, has been replaced by things like HTML five, I think.
[41:51.080 --> 41:52.240]  Well, didn't YouTube do that?
[41:52.940 --> 41:57.540]  So YouTube offers your choice, uh, of a Flash player or an HTML video player.
[41:58.100 --> 42:05.680]  And, uh, depending on all sorts of factors, they'll, the, you know, if you don't choose, which is the normal thing to do, it will choose one for you.
[42:05.800 --> 42:17.440]  Well, I have a, I have a Flash blocker because honestly, I think it's a crime against humanity to, to go to a website and have audio or video just suddenly start, uh, uh, spouting from your speakers without you saying anything.
[42:17.620 --> 42:22.160]  So anytime that happens, I get asked, do you want this to play?
[42:22.280 --> 42:28.220]  And I either say yes or no, uh, that in addition to ad blocker makes my web experience a lot more pleasant.
[42:28.220 --> 42:37.880]  But I noticed recently and not recently, but within the last year, uh, that instead of a little Flash icon, when I go to YouTube, that changed to, uh, HTML5.
[42:38.080 --> 42:39.620]  And, uh, I thought that was kind of interesting.
[42:39.820 --> 42:49.200]  I mean, it's interesting that you describe Flash as a crime against humanity, which I think is hyperbole, but we do know from the hacking team docs that it has been used to commit literal crimes against humanity.
[42:49.400 --> 42:49.960]  So there's that.
[42:50.100 --> 42:50.920]  That's what I meant.
[42:51.120 --> 42:53.800]  I think it's cool that Netscape is still looking out for you.
[42:54.140 --> 42:58.560]  Uh, Bernie, are you, uh, are you completely cut over from Flash?
[42:59.060 --> 43:11.400]  Oh, I, yeah, I, I block it on, on my computer, but I'm, uh, where, or are other major browser, uh, publishers, such as, uh, Google with its Chrome and Microsoft with its, uh, you know, diminishing market share Internet Explorer.
[43:11.600 --> 43:25.620]  Why are they not doing the same thing that Mozilla is doing with Firefox by automatically blocking, uh, Flash now until at least these, uh, these leaked, uh, hacking team company, uh, uh, zero-day exploits are, are patched.
[43:25.800 --> 43:29.080]  Uh, I think there should be greater responsibility amongst all the browser publishers.
[43:29.900 --> 43:41.260]  Because Mozilla, at its heart, is still an open source company, and it's interested mainly in providing, uh, good software for good software's sake, while Google and Microsoft are still commercial interests, uh, with other things going on.
[43:41.460 --> 44:00.260]  It is worth noting that, uh, both Firefox and Chrome, and possibly the other browsers, which I don't know as well, do offer you the option to put Flash into a click-to-play mode, uh, which is something I've been using for, for a while, so that if there's some piece of content that uses Flash that you really want to see,
[44:00.340 --> 44:07.440]  you can enable it without risking yourself, uh, running this plug-in all the time without your knowledge, and for often no good reason.
[44:09.000 --> 44:09.480]  Okay.
[44:09.740 --> 44:12.840]  Well, uh, moving on to other fun stories.
[44:13.420 --> 44:18.380]  This one, uh, was posted to our, our mailing list, and I just thought it was, uh, worth repeating here.
[44:18.860 --> 44:20.460]  Um, this happened in London.
[44:20.840 --> 44:26.440]  Uh, this, uh, this guy was, um, arrested on a London overground train.
[44:26.540 --> 44:28.980]  An overground train is basically the opposite of an underground train.
[44:29.380 --> 44:31.840]  Goes over, outside instead of underground.
[44:32.080 --> 44:33.740]  I feel like I learned nothing from that explanation.
[44:33.840 --> 44:35.060]  Well, that's, I mean, what do you expect?
[44:35.180 --> 44:36.300]  It's an overground train.
[44:36.460 --> 44:37.500]  It's a British term.
[44:37.720 --> 44:46.800]  Uh, he basically, um, uh, is being accused of, and I love being charged with crimes in England because you get the best names, abstracting electricity.
[44:47.380 --> 44:56.600]  That's after plugging his, his, um, his iPhone in to charge it while traveling from, of all places, Hackney to Camden.
[44:57.020 --> 45:02.760]  Uh, a man, uh, the man is, uh, named Robin Lee, 45-year-old artist based in Illington.
[45:03.180 --> 45:12.120]  Uh, he is accusing British transport police of being overzealous and ridiculous after he was arrested for basically plugging his iPhone into a socket on the train.
[45:12.360 --> 45:18.680]  Uh, he was handcuffed, taken to a British transport police station, uh, after that arrest for abstracting electricity.
[45:18.680 --> 45:26.540]  He was then arrested on a second offense of unacceptable behavior after becoming aggressive when objecting to his prior arrest.
[45:26.840 --> 45:28.260]  And this is true worldwide.
[45:28.260 --> 45:32.280]  If you get arrested, you need to embrace that or you will be charged with other crimes.
[45:32.900 --> 45:34.260]  So this is the thing I don't understand.
[45:34.280 --> 45:38.780]  Is there just an outlet like sitting around on the train that you're, that's illegal to use?
[45:38.880 --> 45:40.340]  Well, you know, Kyle and I just came back.
[45:40.480 --> 45:41.480]  We took the train from Toronto.
[45:41.660 --> 45:46.040]  Uh, it's interesting because, uh, we, we got on a, it was supposed to be via rail, but it turned out to be Amtrak.
[45:46.240 --> 45:46.900]  It's Tarana.
[45:48.000 --> 45:48.360]  Tarana.
[45:48.640 --> 45:49.000]  Taranta.
[45:49.620 --> 45:51.180]  Taranto, not Tarana, Albania.
[45:51.440 --> 45:51.720]  Taranta.
[45:52.020 --> 45:52.340]  Yeah.
[45:52.600 --> 45:58.460]  Well, in any event, we, um, uh, we were on that train and we had, we had AC outlets next to us and nobody arrested us for using it.
[45:58.520 --> 45:59.220]  Yeah, you're allowed to use Amtrak.
[45:59.220 --> 46:01.240]  Well, how are we supposed to know if we're allowed to or not?
[46:01.360 --> 46:02.540]  This is the thing I don't understand.
[46:02.860 --> 46:04.260]  The LIRR has outlets.
[46:04.640 --> 46:05.060]  Do they?
[46:05.260 --> 46:07.120]  Yeah, you can find at least like one.
[46:07.340 --> 46:07.600]  Okay.
[46:07.680 --> 46:08.740]  Well, they're hard to find.
[46:09.120 --> 46:15.660]  Uh, but if I'm on an overground train and, I can't get used to that word, and, and I, I, I plug something in, I'm going to get arrested.
[46:15.880 --> 46:17.500]  I'm going to be accused of abstracting electricity.
[46:18.480 --> 46:19.080]  That's nuts.
[46:20.120 --> 46:21.060]  What, what, why have the plug there?
[46:21.120 --> 46:22.480]  What's the plug for in the first place?
[46:22.620 --> 46:23.320]  This is the part I don't understand.
[46:23.480 --> 46:29.800]  I mean, did this guy like break a lock to the, get to the outlet or, or, or was there just an outlet hanging out in the middle of the train?
[46:30.600 --> 46:31.960]  Well, here's, here's the thing.
[46:32.140 --> 46:41.000]  Uh, according to, um, the evening standard, uh, he, um, uh, basically Robin Lee said he had been confronted by a police community support officer on the overground train.
[46:41.680 --> 46:44.680]  Um, he, uh, she said, I'm abstracting electricity.
[46:44.680 --> 46:46.040]  She kept saying it's a crime.
[46:46.160 --> 46:49.980]  We were just coming into the station and there happened to be about four police officers on the platform.
[46:50.160 --> 46:53.460]  She called to them and said, and this is actually a phrase they use.
[46:53.540 --> 46:55.060]  This guy's been abstracting electricity.
[46:55.300 --> 46:56.400]  He needs to be arrested.
[46:57.240 --> 47:02.720]  Go outside on Atlantic Avenue right now and say, Hey, this guy's abstracting electricity and see if anybody comes to your aid.
[47:02.720 --> 47:03.320]  It's not going to happen.
[47:03.640 --> 47:07.920]  Between the overground and the abstracting and what was the police community support?
[47:07.920 --> 47:09.660]  I don't know what's going on in this story.
[47:09.960 --> 47:14.680]  Well, abstracting electricity, Mike is an offense under section 13 of the theft act of 1968.
[47:14.680 --> 47:18.220]  It carries a maximum custodial sentence of five years.
[47:18.740 --> 47:20.440]  So I'd be careful if I were you.
[47:20.740 --> 47:25.360]  Now Lee tweeted about the incident, posted a picture of his arrest sheet, which has since been deleted.
[47:25.760 --> 47:29.300]  He said to the evening standard, I was just incredulous.
[47:29.480 --> 47:31.360]  It was an overzealous community support officer.
[47:31.460 --> 47:32.460]  They should never have arrested me.
[47:32.520 --> 47:33.320]  They knew it was ridiculous.
[47:33.580 --> 47:35.460]  The whole thing was just ridiculous.
[47:36.700 --> 47:39.960]  And it turns out the artist was later de-arrested for the offense.
[47:40.120 --> 47:40.580]  Is that a word?
[47:40.660 --> 47:41.180]  De-arrested?
[47:41.820 --> 47:42.920]  I've heard of un-arrested.
[47:43.040 --> 47:45.600]  Can we get a version of this article in like American English?
[47:45.740 --> 47:47.540]  No, no, because I'm getting it from the Guardian.
[47:47.760 --> 47:48.100]  I'm sorry.
[47:48.320 --> 47:51.040]  We'll just have to expand our horizons a little bit.
[47:51.160 --> 47:52.140]  Is there a hyphen in that?
[47:52.460 --> 47:53.740]  Yes, there is a hyphen, Kyle.
[47:53.900 --> 47:54.540]  There is a hyphen.
[47:54.540 --> 47:57.280]  A-R-E-A-R-E-S-A.
[47:57.320 --> 47:57.460]  Yes.
[47:57.460 --> 47:57.660]  Okay, okay.
[47:57.720 --> 47:58.820]  Just so I know.
[47:59.020 --> 48:03.580]  British Transport Police said in the statement, we were called to Camden Road, London, on overground state.
[48:03.640 --> 48:04.760]  Hey, we've been to that station.
[48:05.380 --> 48:06.880]  That's an overground station right there.
[48:07.000 --> 48:07.140]  Okay.
[48:07.320 --> 48:07.820]  Camden Road.
[48:07.940 --> 48:08.340]  I know that one.
[48:09.040 --> 48:10.460]  Well, no, that's Camden Town.
[48:11.220 --> 48:11.740]  You know what?
[48:11.760 --> 48:12.160]  I'm not sure.
[48:12.420 --> 48:21.820]  Anyway, they were called on Friday, July 10th, to a report of a man becoming aggressive when charged by a PCSO about his use of a plug socket on board an overground train.
[48:21.820 --> 48:28.520]  Shortly after 3.30 p.m., a 45-year-old man from Illington was arrested on suspicion of abstracting electricity, for which he was de-arrested.
[48:28.640 --> 48:36.260]  Shortly afterward, he was further arrested... and there's no hyphen there... for unacceptable behavior and has been reported for this offense.
[48:36.700 --> 48:38.060]  Now, here's the fact.
[48:38.340 --> 48:45.520]  Electricity sockets on overground trains are clearly marked with the words, cleaners use only and not for public use.
[48:46.320 --> 48:46.980]  All right.
[48:47.140 --> 48:49.840]  I don't know if Robin Lee is a cleaner.
[48:49.840 --> 48:54.460]  He might be a cleaner in some part of his life, so maybe he interpreted that to mean he could use it.
[48:54.860 --> 48:56.520]  I don't know, but...
[48:56.520 --> 49:04.820]  If the MTA had power outlets on trains that they didn't want anyone to use, they would hide them and put a lockbox around them and let you know you're not supposed to use it.
[49:04.860 --> 49:05.920]  They wouldn't put a little sign.
[49:06.440 --> 49:07.100]  That's all I'm saying.
[49:07.160 --> 49:08.660]  There is a New York connection to this.
[49:09.040 --> 49:13.380]  Last week, in fact, 19-year-old Nick Silvestri hit the headlines here in New York.
[49:13.400 --> 49:15.200]  I must have missed this because I was out of the country.
[49:15.200 --> 49:30.500]  After he jumped on stage before a Broadway play in an attempt to charge his phone on a fake socket, which was part of a set, he said his phone had 5% left as, and this is a quote, girls were calling all day.
[49:30.700 --> 49:37.680]  You know, I think this was just a shameless attempt at publicity that worked and didn't get his phone charged at all.
[49:38.340 --> 49:40.440]  All right, that's enough of that story.
[49:41.120 --> 49:41.980]  How about this?
[49:42.000 --> 49:43.320]  This is a bit more important.
[49:43.520 --> 49:54.000]  Our friend Laura Poitras, Academy Award winner for Citizen Four, a documentary on Edward Snowden, is suing the government because we've known about this for years.
[49:54.000 --> 49:57.520]  She has always been hassled whenever she enters the country.
[49:57.580 --> 50:01.640]  I've complained, but it pales in comparison to what she's been going through.
[50:01.640 --> 50:04.920]  Now, Laura is being represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
[50:05.160 --> 50:21.840]  She filed a Freedom of Information Act complaint in federal court against the Department of Homeland Security, the Justice Department, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, quote, seeking the disclosure and release of agency records improperly withheld from the filmmaker by these agencies and affiliated sub-agencies,
[50:22.120 --> 50:22.500]  like U.S.
[50:22.620 --> 50:30.860]  Customs and Border Protection, Citizenship and Immigration Services, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Transportation Security Administration, and the FBI.
[50:31.640 --> 50:35.460]  And Poitras says that during the six-year period from...
[50:36.440 --> 50:38.140]  Actually, I'm sorry, the story cut off.
[50:38.280 --> 50:42.580]  You know, when you print things these days, half the time you don't get half of the story.
[50:43.180 --> 50:45.580]  Well, anyway, she has been stopped an awful lot.
[50:45.800 --> 50:53.040]  The harassment began in 2006 when airline agents were compelled to call Homeland Security before Laura Poitras was issued a boarding pass.
[50:53.040 --> 51:01.600]  And following that, her boarding pass has all had that familiar four S's on it, and that entitles you to further scrutiny.
[51:02.420 --> 51:04.460]  There's all kinds of cases here.
[51:04.600 --> 51:05.040]  They're all listed.
[51:05.260 --> 51:07.400]  But the point is, she's fighting back.
[51:07.420 --> 51:09.460]  We all should fight back when this sort of thing happens.
[51:09.460 --> 51:12.400]  I mean, yeah, I really hope this case goes somewhere.
[51:12.520 --> 51:13.740]  I have a suspicion that it won't.
[51:13.880 --> 51:23.520]  But look, either she's committed a crime and she should be charged and given the due process rights there, or what I think is more likely, she hasn't committed a crime and should be left alone.
[51:23.520 --> 51:29.620]  But this sort of, like, harassment from the government at the borders is just inane.
[51:30.620 --> 51:42.780]  Yeah, it's plainly obvious that what's supposed to be a punishment for criminal activity, or at least a tool to investigate legitimate criminal activity, is instead used to just punish people that aren't liked by those in power, people that are doing things that are,
[51:42.840 --> 51:44.480]  you know, not enjoyed by those in power.
[51:44.560 --> 51:46.840]  And so, you know, you're making noise, we're going to punish you.
[51:46.900 --> 51:48.020]  We're going to make your flights miserable.
[51:48.180 --> 51:49.220]  We're going to do this, we're going to do that.
[51:49.340 --> 51:52.420]  And that's just, that's not justice, that's bullying.
[51:52.420 --> 51:56.340]  And of course, we know people who will not enter the United States because of this nonsense.
[51:56.540 --> 51:58.700]  And that is also nuts.
[51:58.900 --> 52:01.300]  And I think, to be honest, that's a mistake.
[52:01.480 --> 52:03.100]  Because I know it's a hassle.
[52:03.260 --> 52:05.860]  I know you're going to get interrogated and you're going to feel miserable.
[52:06.300 --> 52:19.300]  But by not coming here, and I'm speaking to people who don't come to conferences in the States or people who are from the States and don't come home to visit their friends and loved ones, you're giving them exactly what they want.
[52:19.300 --> 52:24.380]  And yeah, it's going to be a pain in the ass for you to go through and fight this.
[52:24.740 --> 52:26.420]  But you have a lot of people on your side.
[52:26.560 --> 52:32.460]  So I think whenever something like this happens, I know Laura has fought this over and over again.
[52:32.600 --> 52:36.020]  She has not let it keep her from coming to the States when she wants to.
[52:36.960 --> 52:37.660]  It's important.
[52:37.820 --> 52:40.420]  It's important to fight back in as many different ways as possible.
[52:40.420 --> 52:48.720]  I mean, the one interesting thing that's specific to Laura's case is that after she won the Oscar, this harassment at least seems to have died down or stopped.
[52:48.880 --> 52:51.720]  It'll be curious to see if it stays that way.
[52:51.900 --> 52:57.460]  But, you know, you make enough of a stink and you get this, you know, the government will back off in one case.
[52:57.460 --> 53:01.840]  What I hope she's able to do is get, you know, real reform into this system.
[53:01.860 --> 53:08.320]  And she said, this is an explicit goal of hers, so that people who do not have the platform she has are also able to reduce their harassment.
[53:08.660 --> 53:10.440]  It would be lovely if that happens.
[53:10.440 --> 53:11.560]  I'm a little skeptical.
[53:12.580 --> 53:13.660]  Yeah, good for her.
[53:13.740 --> 53:14.960]  I think she should go for it.
[53:15.040 --> 53:19.280]  And I would, I hope she drops an Oscar on Liberty's foot.
[53:20.560 --> 53:21.680]  But that's quite a concept.
[53:21.820 --> 53:22.680]  Bernie, any thoughts on this?
[53:23.320 --> 53:27.500]  Yeah, actually, it wasn't when she won the Oscar that the harassment stopped.
[53:27.660 --> 53:34.960]  It was in 2012, after Glenn Greenwald wrote a big expose about all the harassment that his friend Laura Poitras was being subjected to.
[53:35.380 --> 53:37.780]  And so then the harassment stopped.
[53:38.020 --> 53:43.800]  But like Mike points out, you know, she's a special case because everybody knows who she is or a lot of people in our community do.
[53:44.460 --> 53:53.720]  But the same harassment has happened to a lot of other people that don't have articles written about him by Glenn Greenwald or who, you know, win Oscars.
[53:53.920 --> 54:02.040]  So I hope this case, I don't have high hopes that she's going to win this case, but I admire her trying and I admire the EFF for representing her.
[54:02.140 --> 54:12.740]  By the way, the EFF, this is the 25th anniversary of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and tomorrow is their last day of a, they're trying to get a fund drive to get 2,500 members.
[54:12.740 --> 54:14.000]  I think they're only about halfway there.
[54:14.160 --> 54:17.700]  I'm not funding, I'm not, I'm not pitching for BAI, I'm pitching for EFF.
[54:18.000 --> 54:22.920]  Go to EFF.org to support their efforts because they're really valuable to all of us.
[54:23.740 --> 54:25.020]  Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
[54:25.380 --> 54:28.560]  They're just trying to get 2,500 members and they're only half, that's shameful.
[54:28.760 --> 54:31.060]  They should be getting 25,000 new members.
[54:31.240 --> 54:41.340]  You know, the things that EFF has done to keep the net safe for freedom and liberty and us in our day-to-day lives.
[54:41.340 --> 54:43.040]  It's, wow.
[54:43.200 --> 54:45.620]  Bernie, tell us again how people can support them.
[54:46.280 --> 54:46.580]  All right.
[54:47.080 --> 54:51.960]  EFF.org to visit the Electronic Frontier Foundation and become a member.
[54:51.960 --> 54:52.940]  I have been a member.
[54:53.240 --> 54:54.080]  I have given them money.
[54:54.220 --> 54:56.180]  They do valuable work for all of us.
[54:56.580 --> 55:00.960]  And they've only gotten about halfway to their goal of 2,500 new members.
[55:01.200 --> 55:02.900]  And this is their 25th anniversary.
[55:03.280 --> 55:09.980]  So I urge all our listeners to go to EFF.org and support their efforts because it really matters what they're doing.
[55:09.980 --> 55:12.420]  Hey, speaking of our listeners, here's a letter from one of them.
[55:12.540 --> 55:15.980]  And you can join this listener by writing to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[55:16.120 --> 55:22.980]  And please say whatever you wish, whether it's complimentary or horribly insulting or whatever you feel like.
[55:23.060 --> 55:24.700]  Just express yourself because you'll feel better.
[55:25.460 --> 55:34.680]  Tim writes, if the Amazon Echo is always listening for its wake word of Alexa, why couldn't it be listening for other bad or naughty words in casual conversation without notifying the owner?
[55:35.100 --> 55:37.300]  Or am I letting my imagination run away?
[55:38.700 --> 55:40.380]  Tim, what is Tim talking about?
[55:40.440 --> 55:41.820]  What is the Amazon Echo?
[55:42.080 --> 55:42.920]  Can somebody tell me this?
[55:43.020 --> 55:49.280]  It's a thing that Amazon will sell you that you talk to it and it listens for you to say hello to it or something.
[55:49.520 --> 55:50.940]  And then it talks back to you.
[55:51.060 --> 55:53.820]  And the answer is it could be listening for other words.
[55:53.920 --> 55:54.800]  There's no special reason.
[55:55.080 --> 55:55.960]  Wait, it answers...
[55:55.960 --> 55:57.540]  Is this in lieu of friends or something?
[55:57.900 --> 55:58.720]  Well, I mean, you say...
[55:58.720 --> 55:59.260]  I think it's...
[55:59.260 --> 56:00.860]  Yeah, you address it by name.
[56:00.860 --> 56:04.160]  And then it listens to your question and answers it.
[56:04.260 --> 56:06.300]  And I know some people who have it and think it's great.
[56:06.460 --> 56:07.920]  I don't want one at all.
[56:08.100 --> 56:09.600]  I don't want to talk to my computers.
[56:09.960 --> 56:15.960]  What if you have a friend named Alexa and you're talking to Alexa while you're carrying this Amazon Echo with you?
[56:16.060 --> 56:17.100]  You shouldn't do that.
[56:17.180 --> 56:19.780]  Why can't you set the name that you want to address it by?
[56:20.080 --> 56:21.080]  So many questions.
[56:21.440 --> 56:23.540]  The answer is it's probably not listening to you all the time.
[56:23.580 --> 56:29.080]  But if you're super concerned about your privacy, then you probably don't want a thing with an always-on microphone in your home.
[56:29.200 --> 56:29.980]  So many questions.
[56:29.980 --> 56:36.040]  Yeah, just turn up your music really loud if you're going to say naughty things in front of your computers.
[56:36.880 --> 56:37.560]  Fair enough.
[56:37.800 --> 56:39.000]  Hey, we're out of time.
[56:39.000 --> 56:43.840]  And we look forward to taking phone calls in the future when we get all the phone lines installed here.
[56:44.260 --> 56:48.980]  Next week is the one and only week we're going to be on for the summer fundraiser.
[56:49.100 --> 56:58.180]  Those of you who pledged during the spring fundraiser, we are in the process of bringing your premiums to the station for having those be sent out.
[56:58.180 --> 56:59.680]  That's basically what I'm trying to say.
[57:00.180 --> 57:04.780]  And next week will be our one fundraising week for the summer.
[57:05.160 --> 57:07.420]  And then after that, we'll preempt the week after that.
[57:07.540 --> 57:08.780]  After that, hopefully we'll have phone lines.
[57:08.860 --> 57:09.600]  That would be really nice.
[57:09.720 --> 57:12.420]  And then we can hear the voices of our listeners once more.
[57:12.880 --> 57:16.060]  And this station is improving minute by minute.
[57:16.060 --> 57:16.900]  I can tell.
[57:17.120 --> 57:23.980]  Just our absence alone, light years have passed as far as improvements.
[57:24.140 --> 57:25.300]  And I'm really thrilled.
[57:25.400 --> 57:26.900]  And I'd love to see that momentum continue.
[57:27.240 --> 57:28.240]  WBAI is worth it.
[57:28.480 --> 57:30.600]  And everybody who listens to this show is worth it.
[57:30.640 --> 57:33.500]  So please stay tuned and stick with WBAI.
[57:33.620 --> 57:35.140]  And you say that things have improved.
[57:35.240 --> 57:38.960]  I think they built a wall outside while we were in here, judging from all the noise that was going on.
[57:38.960 --> 57:41.800]  So this place is literally being built as we speak.
[57:42.100 --> 57:45.800]  And you can be a part of that by pledging next week.
[57:45.940 --> 57:48.260]  And by continuing to listen and spread the word.
[57:48.620 --> 57:49.080]  Write to us again.
[57:49.260 --> 57:51.380]  OTH at 2600.com.
[57:51.960 --> 57:58.220]  Let's go out with a tribute to the planetoid or dwarf planet, whatever you want to call it, Pluto.
[57:59.020 --> 58:04.280]  This is basically a song that doesn't even mention Pluto, but it's entitled Pluto from Bjork.
[58:04.480 --> 58:05.260]  We'll see you next week.
[58:05.340 --> 58:05.460]  Good night.
[58:44.430 --> 58:44.970]  Good night.
[58:44.970 --> 58:52.290]  A little bit tired But brand new Ooh