[00:00.000 --> 00:04.280]  ...future Billy Clark from Culture Hub and artist Sherizade Garcia.
[00:04.620 --> 00:09.060]  This program will take place on Wednesday, September 16th from 2 to 3 p.m.
[00:09.140 --> 00:15.620]  and can only be heard on WBAI New York, 99.5 FM, and on WBAI.org.
[00:19.510 --> 00:24.310]  And you're listening to radio station WBAI New York, where the time is 7 o'clock.
[00:24.410 --> 00:25.450]  Time once again for Off the Hook.
[02:18.530 --> 02:20.730]  And a very good evening to everybody.
[02:20.810 --> 02:22.270]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:22.270 --> 02:25.850]  Look, Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening.
[02:25.990 --> 02:27.870]  Joined tonight by Mike.
[02:28.130 --> 02:28.490]  Hi there.
[02:28.970 --> 02:29.450]  Rob T.
[02:29.590 --> 02:30.070]  Firefly.
[02:30.310 --> 02:30.730]  Good evening.
[02:31.170 --> 02:31.950]  Bernie S.
[02:32.850 --> 02:34.110]  Greetings from Philadelphia.
[02:34.570 --> 02:34.970]  Kyle.
[02:35.510 --> 02:36.210]  Hello, hackers.
[02:37.170 --> 02:38.070]  You're in my front.
[02:38.190 --> 02:38.730]  Say it again.
[02:39.190 --> 02:39.790]  Hello, hackers.
[02:40.210 --> 02:41.050]  And Reggie's still here.
[02:42.210 --> 02:45.130]  He's helping us set something up, which might work and might be amazing.
[02:45.730 --> 02:46.890]  We'll see about that.
[02:47.510 --> 02:57.090]  While they're working, while they're working on making radio sound as good as it possibly can sound, we will commence the show and let people know what is going on.
[02:57.570 --> 03:00.750]  Of course, the big story being...
[03:00.750 --> 03:03.570]  Well, I mean, there are a lot of big stories, but this is our big story.
[03:04.010 --> 03:07.130]  Rob, I know you've been active in spreading this around.
[03:07.590 --> 03:10.510]  The Splotchgate, I guess is what we're calling it.
[03:10.730 --> 03:11.870]  The Ink Splotch Scandal.
[03:13.170 --> 03:15.190]  This is just too funny to even believe.
[03:15.190 --> 03:23.370]  But, all right, basically what happened was we received a notice at 2600, both via email and then through the U.S.
[03:23.410 --> 03:26.610]  mail, several times, accusing us.
[03:26.690 --> 03:31.430]  You know, we get so many accusations every week that we just get used to it after a while.
[03:31.550 --> 03:39.730]  But this accusation was special because they were accusing us of using unauthorized artwork, an unauthorized picture.
[03:40.710 --> 03:46.630]  And, you know, they sent us a picture next to our picture.
[03:46.670 --> 03:50.830]  And our picture was the cover of the spring 2012 issue.
[03:51.650 --> 03:57.670]  And if you recall, that issue was one of those inter-office manila envelope type things.
[03:57.750 --> 04:01.190]  You know, the kind where you write down destinations.
[04:01.710 --> 04:02.370]  Wait, I'm sorry.
[04:02.450 --> 04:03.830]  Did you just say 2012?
[04:04.230 --> 04:05.050]  I think I said 2012.
[04:05.230 --> 04:07.370]  So they're in no hurry here.
[04:07.370 --> 04:11.670]  Well, maybe they just, you know, found it after looking for...
[04:11.670 --> 04:12.010]  I don't know.
[04:12.150 --> 04:14.370]  I'm not really sure how they found it, when they found it, whatever.
[04:14.490 --> 04:16.390]  But it is our spring 2012 cover.
[04:16.450 --> 04:18.210]  You can go to our website and you can see the cover there.
[04:18.770 --> 04:19.610]  There's no risk.
[04:19.610 --> 04:22.030]  You can see it and not be penalized for looking at it.
[04:22.290 --> 04:25.030]  So they sent us a copy of this picture.
[04:25.510 --> 04:28.110]  And then they sent us a copy of another picture.
[04:28.110 --> 04:32.670]  And it looked like this, like, Harry Potter-looking guy just standing there against a wall.
[04:33.370 --> 04:39.970]  And, you know, my first impression upon seeing that was, wow, this is a weird kind of spam.
[04:40.010 --> 04:42.310]  I don't know what the game is here, but you know what?
[04:42.310 --> 04:42.670]  I'm busy.
[04:42.750 --> 04:43.290]  I don't have time.
[04:44.130 --> 05:01.530]  Then, after passing this around the office a bit, having some other people look at it, somebody realized that they weren't talking about the envelope with the names and addresses and the little string that gets tied around the two circular things on the envelope.
[05:01.630 --> 05:02.630]  You know what I'm talking about, right?
[05:02.650 --> 05:03.750]  There's the name for these envelopes.
[05:03.830 --> 05:04.770]  Inter-office envelopes.
[05:04.770 --> 05:05.770]  Inter-office envelopes.
[05:05.890 --> 05:09.350]  It's a way of bypassing the mail, which I guess is legal.
[05:10.030 --> 05:11.650]  Okay, so they weren't talking about that.
[05:11.950 --> 05:18.610]  They were talking about actual splatters of ink that were at the bottom of that envelope.
[05:18.770 --> 05:21.290]  So little splatters of ink in the bottom right-hand corner of the envelope.
[05:21.490 --> 05:27.630]  And if you look at the Harry Potter-looking guy standing against a wall, there are ink splatters on the wall, too.
[05:27.710 --> 05:33.430]  So what these people were saying, these people at Trunk Archives is the name of the organization.
[05:33.430 --> 05:38.890]  It's all tied together with all kinds of other image brokering groups.
[05:39.010 --> 05:43.330]  I'm sure Kyle can explain that in a moment, like Getty Images and people like that.
[05:43.550 --> 05:51.010]  What they are doing is they're saying that the ink splotches on the wall are theirs and that we use a bit of their ink splotch.
[05:51.330 --> 05:57.070]  And that because we did that, because we did that, we are liable and we must pay them.
[05:57.170 --> 06:01.490]  We must pay them, I believe $714 is the amount that they are demanding.
[06:02.250 --> 06:04.490]  They say that we must also take it down.
[06:04.510 --> 06:11.130]  I don't know how we take down an issue that we put out, but they want us to take down our issue and give them money.
[06:11.210 --> 06:14.530]  They say if, you know, just taking it down is not enough, you have to pay us.
[06:14.670 --> 06:17.530]  And if you don't pay us, we're going to come after you legally.
[06:17.530 --> 06:20.650]  It's going to cost a lot more than $714, so you better pay us.
[06:22.230 --> 06:26.250]  And that was annoying in and of itself, because for God's sake, people, these are ink splots.
[06:26.250 --> 06:39.810]  Have we reached a stage in our development where we are actually going to be copywriting random ink splatters on a wall and saying, this belongs to this corporation and you must do this and pay this and all that kind of thing.
[06:40.370 --> 06:52.490]  And the thing is, if you go to their website, if you go to various websites of these image archiving and copywriting sites, they maintain that they're protecting the artist.
[06:52.490 --> 07:03.830]  And I have yet to find a single artist that believes in what they are doing that has benefited in any significant way from having their images brokered by one of these agencies.
[07:04.250 --> 07:09.150]  Okay, but the story gets much better than just this and just the ink splotches.
[07:09.610 --> 07:14.290]  It turns out, we did a little research into how that particular cover was put together.
[07:14.430 --> 07:15.510]  Every cover has a story.
[07:15.510 --> 07:24.090]  Every cover has a whole long string of steps that were taken to make it into a cover in the first place.
[07:24.230 --> 07:25.250]  The whole process takes...
[07:25.250 --> 07:26.750]  How long does it take to make a Simpsons episode?
[07:26.830 --> 07:27.770]  About a year and a half?
[07:27.910 --> 07:37.350]  It's about that, because there's all kinds of things you got to look into and put together and see if it works and then delete the things by accident and get it back.
[07:37.490 --> 07:38.930]  And just basically, it takes us a while.
[07:39.310 --> 07:43.730]  So we went back and we saw where we got the ink splotches from.
[07:43.730 --> 07:55.290]  And it turns out, it turns out the ink splotches were actually from a Finnish artist that had posted it on a website for public consumption.
[07:56.650 --> 07:58.470]  And we found the website.
[07:58.470 --> 08:00.310]  We found the ink splotches.
[08:00.570 --> 08:15.890]  And in fact, if you go to our website and look at the story, the story being 2600 accused of using unauthorized ink splotches, you will see a mock-up of the original with the Harry Potter guy with the Trunk Archive image and our cover.
[08:16.010 --> 08:17.410]  And you'll see where they all merge.
[08:17.790 --> 08:30.290]  But what it comes down to is that these guys at Trunk Archive are saying that we owe them money for an image that they themselves do not even own.
[08:30.450 --> 08:34.590]  The story has kind of picked up a lot in the last 24 hours.
[08:34.590 --> 08:38.050]  And I think it was even on the register today, which is pretty awesome.
[08:38.530 --> 08:39.670]  But wow, right?
[08:40.010 --> 08:40.490]  Yeah.
[08:40.610 --> 08:55.550]  It's important to point out that the original ink splatter image here in Splotchgate was made by a Finnish artist whose name I don't have in front of me, but who shared the image on the site DeviantArt, which is a commonly known site for people to share their artwork.
[08:55.830 --> 09:03.110]  And this person shared that ink splatter with the notice that it was free for commercial and non-commercial reuse.
[09:03.110 --> 09:05.110]  They posted it for people to reuse.
[09:05.450 --> 09:17.190]  So whoever created this Harry Potter guy image used this freely available stock splatter in their version of the image, the same freely available stock splatter that our cover artists used.
[09:17.750 --> 09:29.610]  And so Trunk Archive is claiming because we share this chunk of free stock splatter with their Harry Potter guy image that they somehow own the original free source material.
[09:29.610 --> 09:33.770]  Well, on DeviantArt, they did say it's free for commercial use.
[09:33.890 --> 09:36.490]  And I guess what Trunk Archive did was say, oh, you know what?
[09:36.550 --> 09:39.050]  Commercial use, that means we can appropriate it, say we own it.
[09:39.210 --> 09:40.230]  That's our commercial use.
[09:40.250 --> 09:41.090]  That's our business model.
[09:41.110 --> 09:44.570]  So we're going to threaten anybody else that has the image.
[09:44.630 --> 09:49.650]  And thank you very much, DeviantArt, for giving us this honor to intimidate people this way.
[09:59.890 --> 10:04.730]  And intimidated by letters like this, because they really are intimidating when you see them.
[10:05.250 --> 10:11.370]  Sure, we know they're produced by computers, they're produced by algorithms and things like that, but they're asking for real money.
[10:11.630 --> 10:23.130]  And the average person who has a website or something that gets tracked by one of these monsters will probably wind up paying because they don't want to hire a lawyer.
[10:23.250 --> 10:26.010]  They don't want to be hounded for years and years.
[10:26.010 --> 10:28.810]  And quite frankly, it's just really scary.
[10:29.050 --> 10:33.110]  But Kyle, I wanted to ask you, because you know something about these brokering agencies.
[10:33.350 --> 10:36.330]  What exactly is the reasoning behind them?
[10:36.630 --> 10:37.590]  Sure, sure, yeah.
[10:37.730 --> 10:40.650]  Okay, so photo brokers, they're kind of like agents, right?
[10:40.910 --> 10:44.030]  Like you'd have in, I don't know, other creative mediums.
[10:44.150 --> 11:00.510]  And I guess the distinction is they're large companies, and you basically can approach them, create some sort of account as a producer of work, and then they will shop around or otherwise make it available.
[11:00.690 --> 11:01.910]  Really, they don't even shop it around.
[11:02.010 --> 11:04.910]  They put it into their archive or their portfolio.
[11:05.250 --> 11:16.750]  And then other people who use them, not as a producer, but as people that want to use the stock image service they provide, will then be able to go through and find images they want.
[11:16.750 --> 11:30.950]  Maybe they select yours, and because it's available there, because as a producer you've worked it out that you'd like them to broker for you, they can then fit however the users that want your image will use it into some sort of pricing model.
[11:31.050 --> 11:32.250]  And that's kind of how it works.
[11:33.610 --> 11:35.190]  So is this something...
[11:35.190 --> 11:35.850]  I mean, you're a photographer.
[11:36.610 --> 11:38.190]  Have you broken any of your images?
[11:38.370 --> 11:39.450]  Would you ever do something like that?
[11:39.930 --> 11:41.090]  And if so, why?
[11:41.230 --> 11:42.190]  And if not, why not?
[11:43.170 --> 11:43.590]  Wow.
[11:43.590 --> 11:46.890]  Okay, yeah, I'm actually not really...
[11:48.070 --> 11:51.290]  I don't have great reasons for this, other than I just prefer not to.
[11:51.370 --> 11:54.710]  I'm not a really big fan of photo brokerage.
[11:54.810 --> 12:00.950]  I think for some people it might be really useful if they want a lot of...
[12:00.950 --> 12:16.930]  If they have a lot of images and they want to get their stuff out far and wide, and they're not as concerned over maybe having their work a bit overexposed in some cases, or used sort of without you being able to vet where it's being used.
[12:17.150 --> 12:23.910]  In other words, you might see your art being used in an advertisement for something you probably, maybe you're not into.
[12:23.910 --> 12:35.950]  So you sort of relinquish a level of control over where your art is, and that has an impact as on who you are as an artist and how people perceive you.
[12:36.070 --> 12:51.710]  If you're just willing to shill yourself for whatever X thing your art is used in, it kind of shades who you are and speaks to your, I don't know, scruples or your, I don't know, what you're okay with.
[12:51.710 --> 12:53.510]  Now, Rob, you're an artist as well.
[12:53.630 --> 12:54.550]  I'll ask you the same question.
[12:54.790 --> 12:55.190]  Yes, indeed.
[12:55.370 --> 13:07.730]  And I actually have kind of direct experience with this sort of thing because when I put my artwork online, I do it always under, wherever possible, under freely available Creative Commons licensing, which means anyone's free to reuse it.
[13:08.350 --> 13:10.410]  I don't distinguish between commercial and non-commercial.
[13:10.410 --> 13:14.470]  I just put it out there under the share-alike Creative Commons license.
[13:15.010 --> 13:24.270]  And recently, within the past couple of weeks, there was one image that I made a few years back, and I found somebody selling it on eBay, just printouts of it.
[13:24.430 --> 13:24.610]  Wow.
[13:24.990 --> 13:34.090]  And I'm led to sort of, okay, this is when I have to stick to my guns because, okay, in one sense, it kind of bites.
[13:34.190 --> 13:36.710]  Somebody's selling my work, and I'm not getting anything from it.
[13:36.830 --> 13:41.450]  But on the other hand, how important is the whole Creative Commons thing to me?
[13:41.450 --> 13:53.890]  And so I sent this person a message over eBay just asking, okay, if you're going to sell this, just make sure you put the Creative Commons license notice on it, identifying me as the original creator of the work.
[13:53.950 --> 13:54.870]  And they did so.
[13:54.970 --> 14:01.590]  And so they're going to keep doing their thing, and I'll just hope that people follow it back and maybe see other things I've done from that.
[14:01.770 --> 14:06.350]  But could you have specified in the Creative Commons license that you did not want it resold?
[14:06.890 --> 14:18.930]  There is a Creative Commons license that specifies non-commercial use, but that's kind of a gray area and kind of a touchy subject, even among people who are into Creative Commons, because then you have to get into, well, what qualifies as commercial?
[14:19.290 --> 14:21.630]  And is it, you know, an independent person reusing it?
[14:21.650 --> 14:22.830]  Is a big company reusing it?
[14:22.870 --> 14:23.810]  Where do you want to draw the line?
[14:24.070 --> 14:27.070]  You know, what do you want to do to finagle this sort of legal battle?
[14:27.230 --> 14:28.470]  And I didn't want to bother with any of that.
[14:28.610 --> 14:36.210]  So at the end of the day, if somebody commercially reuses something that I've put out under this license, okay, that, you know, that means that they're getting paid and I'm not.
[14:36.210 --> 14:43.830]  But that also means if they're following the license, that I'm being recognized as the originator of whatever it is they're selling, and we go from there.
[14:43.970 --> 14:49.930]  So hopefully the exposure is worth the fact that I'm not the one getting paid for this use of my work.
[14:50.310 --> 14:51.990]  Bernie, do you have anything to add to this?
[14:53.050 --> 14:57.870]  Well, you said that every cover, 2600, has a good story behind it.
[14:57.990 --> 15:09.590]  And there's a similar story, kind of related, that happened, I think, back in the late 90s, where something from 2600's cover ended up in another magazine.
[15:09.770 --> 15:10.330]  Do you remember that?
[15:10.750 --> 15:10.970]  No.
[15:11.750 --> 15:14.450]  One cover at a time, but I have no idea which one you're talking about.
[15:14.590 --> 15:18.670]  Well, this was the cover, I think it was around 98 or 99.
[15:18.670 --> 15:27.890]  It was a picture of some LED signs owned by the MTA at 57th and Lexington.
[15:28.150 --> 15:37.930]  And you may recall that we went up there to see if these LED signs might have been hacked on a particular gate.
[15:37.950 --> 15:48.470]  And I think, I can't remember her name, it was Roman's sister came with her really nice camera and took pictures of these hacked LED signs that were above an escalator going into the subway station.
[15:49.150 --> 15:52.070]  And she wasn't a professional, but she took some nice pictures.
[15:52.110 --> 16:00.910]  And I said, it became a really big news story, this hack of the LED signs, which said, 2600, the hacker quarterly, instead of watch your step or whatever.
[16:01.550 --> 16:04.270]  It was on every news broadcast that night, in fact.
[16:04.370 --> 16:06.750]  That was major news that a subway sign was hacked.
[16:06.990 --> 16:09.910]  Yeah, it became a big story on the radio, TV stations, news stations.
[16:09.950 --> 16:11.130]  It was a big news story.
[16:11.170 --> 16:15.350]  Well, they equated the sign that usually said, watch your step or have a nice day.
[16:15.350 --> 16:19.890]  They, instead said, the hacker quarterly, they thought the whole subway system was hacked, not just a little sign.
[16:20.210 --> 16:20.530]  Apparently.
[16:20.870 --> 16:24.470]  But I told, I told a Roman sister, I wish I could remember her name.
[16:24.550 --> 16:25.050]  She was 17.
[16:25.050 --> 16:29.730]  And I said, you know, if you've never sold a picture before, she wanted to get into commercial photography.
[16:30.370 --> 16:34.530]  Because this is a big story, why don't you contact the Associated Press and see if they buy it?
[16:34.570 --> 16:37.030]  So I looked up the number for her, gave her the phone number, she called them.
[16:38.010 --> 16:39.530]  And they told her, come right over.
[16:39.530 --> 16:42.990]  And she, I think it paid like $500 for the picture.
[16:43.950 --> 16:52.510]  And, you know, it was put on the cover of 2600 Magazine, but then later, in an edited format, just to make the lighting look better or whatever.
[16:52.630 --> 16:59.870]  But the bottom line is, I don't know, it was like a year or two later, that same photograph that she took ended up in a Forbes Magazine article about the economy.
[17:00.010 --> 17:01.170]  I don't even think the Forbes editor...
[17:01.170 --> 17:11.870]  Okay, well, let me correct you there, Bernie, because first of all, you're talking about selling the picture to a news agency, and then that news agency using it rightfully in various magazines.
[17:12.030 --> 17:14.170]  But we did not use the same photograph.
[17:14.210 --> 17:22.810]  Otherwise, we'd be in this awkward situation of the photograph that we are using, we don't have the rights to, even though we took it for our own cover.
[17:22.990 --> 17:28.410]  So obviously, we're not that dimwitted that we would sell the same photograph to another magazine.
[17:28.550 --> 17:31.490]  But what you're talking about is something that...
[17:31.490 --> 17:32.250]  I think it's similar.
[17:32.250 --> 17:36.830]  It's very similar, but it was sold to a different news agency, correct?
[17:37.230 --> 17:42.870]  Yeah, and there was a similar story that happened a while back with a musician I follow, a person called Hussalonia.
[17:43.170 --> 17:46.030]  That's H-U-S-S-A-L-O-N-I-A.
[17:47.210 --> 17:52.750]  And this person released an EP of songs under public domain, just freely available.
[17:52.870 --> 17:53.930]  Anybody can use them for anything.
[17:54.130 --> 17:56.350]  And in fact, the title of it is the public domain EP.
[17:56.690 --> 17:58.250]  It was hosted on archive.org.
[17:58.250 --> 17:59.450]  It was being spread around.
[17:59.450 --> 18:05.290]  And everyone was free, as per the wishes of the creator, to reuse this music in any way they saw fit.
[18:05.670 --> 18:14.770]  And what ended up happening was years later, a third party took those songs, put them together into an album called something...
[18:14.770 --> 18:16.930]  Okay, royalty-free rock music is what it was called.
[18:17.390 --> 18:20.230]  And they claimed a copyright on that version of it.
[18:20.590 --> 18:35.930]  And what happened then was that everybody who was using the public domain tracks on things like YouTube, it was then getting recognized by the automatic copyright recognition systems as this other person's copyrighted work, rather than the original public domain thing.
[18:36.050 --> 18:47.430]  So people were getting copyright notices, again, and very similar to this story with SplotchGate for reusing originally freely available material, but it's being recognized as the property of some middleman somewhere.
[18:47.430 --> 18:56.390]  This is the kind of thing that happens when you allow corporations to have this kind of control and power, and you agree to things like this.
[18:56.850 --> 19:05.010]  You see the effects on YouTube, you try to post anything with a little snippet of music or video, and the algorithms are on you in a second, saying, this does not belong to you, you can't do this.
[19:05.690 --> 19:24.550]  It's only going to get more and more refined, where if you're shooting something in a street with your friends, and there's a sign in the background, you'll have to acknowledge that that sign belongs to Nike or something like that, or if somebody makes a tune with their whistling going by in a car or something like that,
[19:24.870 --> 19:27.790]  it's art's biggest nightmare, I think.
[19:27.850 --> 19:29.130]  No, you won't have to do anything.
[19:29.250 --> 19:30.470]  The camera will block it out.
[19:30.530 --> 19:31.030]  Oh, will it?
[19:31.150 --> 19:31.390]  Automatically.
[19:31.630 --> 19:31.770]  Oh, how nice.
[19:31.950 --> 19:32.790]  Okay, all right.
[19:33.070 --> 19:34.690]  Well, then, problem solved.
[19:34.890 --> 19:47.290]  I mean, you talk about the free licensing, and it's important to note that this is how you got the ink splotch in the first place, is that the artist who originally made it was kind enough to post it under a license that let you use it.
[19:47.450 --> 19:56.550]  So, you know, and that artist got no veto power over the cover, and apparently they were fine with that, because they posted under this permission.
[19:57.310 --> 20:03.270]  It's only when someone then tries to retroactively say, hey, that's mine, that the problems come up.
[20:03.410 --> 20:14.310]  Well, it's also, that's why it's important to, if you do create something, to have it online somewhere, so people can say, oh yeah, he did create that, or just have, keep some documentation yourself.
[20:14.890 --> 20:33.210]  But, you know, even if, even if we had wantonly gone out and taken that ink splotch off of a commercial site, there is a little doctrine called fair use, which this certainly qualifies for, um, as, um, as basically a work where it's, we're not duplicating the,
[20:33.410 --> 20:44.070]  uh, 100% of the art, we're, we're making something, um, uh, different as a result of it, whether, uh, through parody or just by building something on top of something else.
[20:44.210 --> 20:45.970]  You're, you're building upon it, right?
[20:46.090 --> 20:49.730]  You're using it as a, an, an attribute of another new piece.
[20:49.910 --> 20:50.030]  Yeah.
[20:50.450 --> 20:50.630]  Yeah.
[20:50.770 --> 20:56.770]  And, uh, we've, we've, uh, heard from a number of lawyers actually in the last 24 hours who have, uh, who have brought that up.
[20:56.890 --> 21:01.870]  And I think that's, it's, it's, it's awfully interesting to see how quickly people, uh, will defend something like this.
[21:02.050 --> 21:11.970]  But the, the important thing to note is that, uh, these image brokers, and I think, uh, I think Kyle, uh, you'll agree with me on this, is that their business model isn't to actually engage in legal proceedings against people.
[21:12.030 --> 21:21.250]  Their business model is just to, you know, send out a bunch of notices and hope people just obey and pay what they call a settlement, like these, the $715 on, uh, on this note.
[21:21.470 --> 21:21.710]  $714.
[21:21.750 --> 21:22.150]  $714.
[21:22.150 --> 21:22.930]  $714, yes.
[21:22.930 --> 21:25.830]  It's like, if this was phishing, it would be like gill netting.
[21:25.970 --> 21:31.050]  You just send out, you do mass mailings, and you get as much as you possibly can.
[21:31.210 --> 21:37.670]  And it's really insidious because you used to, you'd get like, what, um, insurance things where you could buy insurance for something.
[21:37.750 --> 21:40.930]  There's a lot of mailings that are pretty obviously fake.
[21:41.170 --> 21:48.130]  But this actually sort of conflates some precedence with the strength of copyright in this country and stuff.
[21:48.370 --> 21:55.950]  And it's, it's sort of sickening that it's sort of hard, it's hard to decipher if they do have a case unless you actually investigate what they're talking about.
[21:55.950 --> 22:04.470]  And one other thing I'd add is just, I think the fact that these are actually, that they're actually, they're entire companies built around this.
[22:04.630 --> 22:16.290]  I think the company licensed compliance service, I mean, come on, this is now an industry that we're building around this because of, um, I think the abundance of digital art.
[22:16.670 --> 22:22.950]  So it tracks with the ability of it being portable on machines and being able to share widely, right?
[22:23.030 --> 22:32.710]  If it, if it was film and if it was prints, it'd be a bit harder to, uh, create a company that goes around and it would be a bit slower, I think, to enforce this.
[22:32.870 --> 22:43.270]  But with automation and, and the, uh, the, uh, wonders of, of digital, um, media, it's a lot easier to do this, uh, from an armchair, so to speak.
[22:43.450 --> 22:43.770]  Absolutely.
[22:44.010 --> 22:54.190]  And, uh, there, there are so many, like if a bigger company, a large corporation gets a nasty note like this, um, chances are they'll probably just put it through and pay it because that's just for the convenience factor.
[22:54.390 --> 22:54.790]  Oh, definitely.
[22:55.130 --> 23:02.270]  Um, you know, it's, it's much cheaper to pay $714 to some stranger who says, uh, we're, we're sending you this note because we want you to send us money.
[23:02.570 --> 23:06.790]  Then it would be to actually pay a lawyer to look at it and advise them on it and do the research.
[23:07.110 --> 23:11.110]  Whereas, uh, if a smaller business or an individual gets this nasty note, they're going to be scared.
[23:11.270 --> 23:11.770]  It's intimidating.
[23:12.090 --> 23:14.310]  It's got an intimidating name, License Compliance Services.
[23:14.530 --> 23:14.690]  Yeah.
[23:14.950 --> 23:20.130]  And, uh, so that's, that's built on, uh, people just paying it right away out of fear that something worse will happen if they don't.
[23:20.310 --> 23:26.510]  So, um, they're, they've based their business model just on, uh, just on the fact that people aren't going to do the research and we'll just pay them.
[23:26.670 --> 23:32.330]  And, and they benefit from this being a very sloppy process because they can just bring more and more stuff into it.
[23:32.610 --> 23:41.410]  Um, and as you said, they're hoping just every so few people that, that, that do, that do take it seriously, we'll just pay up and want it to go away.
[23:41.690 --> 23:49.250]  And that's really the reason why, uh, we made this public because they're going to, if they don't apologize to us, they're going to drop it.
[23:49.530 --> 24:01.810]  Uh, we know they have absolutely no leg to stand on, but there are so many other people out there that don't have the benefit of being able to talk about this on the radio or being able to, uh, um, uh, tweet about it and have a thousand other people retweet and things like that.
[24:02.050 --> 24:18.670]  It's for those people who don't have the resources who will be intimidated by something completely, um, uh, ridiculous, um, that, uh, it's necessary to speak out and expose these companies for what they're doing and to take steps to make them stop doing this.
[24:18.830 --> 24:20.310]  That's, that's really our reasoning.
[24:20.510 --> 24:20.770]  Yeah.
[24:20.790 --> 24:23.050]  I mean, and as Klaus suggests, the game is rigged.
[24:23.190 --> 24:34.310]  There's a very little cost to them to sending one of these letters and it would be very hard, I think, to get any kind of, uh, punishment out of them if, if they send one fraudulently.
[24:34.870 --> 24:42.270]  The, the amount of, uh, legal hassle you would have to go through to get any kind of fraud settlement would, would totally not be worth the effort.
[24:42.430 --> 24:43.470]  And, and they know this.
[24:43.510 --> 24:53.310]  So they can send out all these letters and, uh, you know, cost some, you know, maybe a buck to, to draft the letter and, you know, 40 cents for postage.
[24:53.710 --> 25:04.370]  And, uh, you know, some percentage of them will give them money and they'll share some small percentage of that with, with JK Rowling or whoever made the Harry Potter fan artwork.
[25:04.730 --> 25:07.250]  And, uh, I hope she knows about this now.
[25:07.390 --> 25:13.810]  I, I find that extremely unlikely, but, uh, is it actually the art in question supposed to be Harry Potter or is it just a wizard?
[25:14.010 --> 25:14.010]  See, you don't know.
[25:14.010 --> 25:14.250]  You don't know.
[25:14.350 --> 25:14.810]  And neither does she.
[25:14.910 --> 25:15.990]  That's why she might look at the story.
[25:16.230 --> 25:16.390]  Yeah.
[25:16.510 --> 25:20.090]  Well, and if you do look at the story, JK, please send us an email and say hi.
[25:20.490 --> 25:24.610]  Um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, you know, it's fun to get these threats.
[25:24.790 --> 25:25.370]  It really is.
[25:25.550 --> 25:29.410]  But, uh, you have to, you have to be serious about what they actually mean.
[25:29.550 --> 25:37.750]  She may have standing based on the likeness of, uh, it's quite, you know, and it's entirely possible also that that model, that that picture doesn't belong to them as well.
[25:38.210 --> 25:39.630]  I think, you know, this is my theory.
[25:39.810 --> 25:51.350]  What, what, what probably happened was they took a picture of the model, uh, and that picture is theirs and he was standing against a wall and, and somebody didn't tell somebody, by the way, we got the ink splatter from someplace else.
[25:51.470 --> 25:54.790]  And their little computer algorithm went through and said, oh, this is a piece of that picture.
[25:54.990 --> 25:55.830]  It belongs to us.
[25:55.930 --> 25:57.310]  Therefore, we're sending out a threatening letter.
[25:57.510 --> 25:58.610]  That's how it works, I think.
[25:59.210 --> 25:59.390]  Right.
[25:59.590 --> 26:04.650]  And I, and the distinction is the concept that this is digital media, right?
[26:04.750 --> 26:06.750]  These are images that are altered digitally.
[26:06.990 --> 26:28.350]  It happens much faster and the portability of background images, uh, long ago, like, as I said, with film and, and, and more traditional forms of creating images like this, you would have to unfurl, uh, a background of, of similar likeness, or you'd have to go through the painstaking process of compositing or cross-processing an image with the right background.
[26:28.350 --> 26:35.550]  It, it would be a lot more involved than simply adding a layer in, um, image manipulation program of your choice.
[26:35.550 --> 26:39.210]  Think of what this is going to do to art in general.
[26:39.430 --> 26:49.570]  Think about, uh, a derivative music, uh, that uses, um, uh, various clips or just, uh, melodies or things like that, but, but build something completely different.
[26:50.230 --> 26:54.410]  Everything is, is based upon something else in, in the world of art.
[26:54.610 --> 26:54.950]  Everything.
[26:55.110 --> 26:58.330]  Writing, music, film, pictures, paintings, you name it.
[26:58.770 --> 27:12.850]  And to have people like this, uh, sitting in an office or have a computer like this sitting in an office, just basically threatening everybody that does anything that has any kind of similarity or can be traced to something else, uh, if allowed to stand,
[27:13.310 --> 27:14.270]  it kills art.
[27:14.450 --> 27:15.170]  It kills it.
[27:15.570 --> 27:16.530]  It completely does.
[27:16.530 --> 27:29.630]  And we're already, we're already seeing that so, so often now in, in any fields, uh, if you're filming, if you're taking video of something and somebody's phone rings, it's going to ring with a tune that somebody else owns the copyright to, and then you can't upload it to YouTube without them monetizing it.
[27:29.750 --> 27:40.290]  We, you know, things with the hope videos that, uh, that we've posted with, uh, you know, strings of, uh, someone's copyrighted music playing in the background for a moment that gets the whole video just monetized by somebody else or taken down.
[27:40.930 --> 27:42.870]  And, uh, and it's, it's, it's crazy.
[27:42.990 --> 27:50.770]  There are a whole lot of people working very hard right now to build up, uh, the, the, uh, sum total of free culture stuff that people are allowed to freely, uh, use.
[27:50.890 --> 27:51.610]  You know, I'm one of them.
[27:51.730 --> 27:54.610]  Other people are, you know, this, this Finnish artist from DeviantArt is one of them.
[27:55.170 --> 28:04.270]  And, uh, and you know, you've got to take the good with the bad, but, uh, this is, this is being abused right now by, uh, these entrenched systems in place to just, uh, make money off of things that other people have made.
[28:04.470 --> 28:14.090]  And I would be really interested to figure out, like, any money that is paid to these people, how it is distributed and, and, and who actually gets it at what percentage might actually go to an artist, if at all.
[28:14.750 --> 28:27.170]  And, um, let's just, and it's worth reiterating these companies, the money that it goes to, whether any of it goes to the artists or not, begets more of what they do, which is sending out these letters.
[28:27.390 --> 28:27.670]  Absolutely.
[28:27.890 --> 28:35.750]  So, this is not like they're enforcing something that goes to artists that are rightfully owed the money in some way, shape or form.
[28:35.930 --> 28:42.630]  They're obviously gonna, even if they take a small percentage, it's simply going to what they do, which is exactly this.
[28:42.770 --> 28:43.330]  It's self-fulfilling.
[28:43.870 --> 28:53.390]  Yeah, I, I don't think they get a penny out of, uh, any of these fines and they get precious little, uh, for their pictures or paintings being, being sold by these brokers.
[28:53.870 --> 28:56.130]  Uh, but, um, yeah, so that's the story.
[28:56.130 --> 29:01.270]  Um, you can read the whole story on, uh, 2600.com and, and, uh, see how it, how it plays out.
[29:01.310 --> 29:02.590]  I'm sure we'll have an update next week.
[29:02.970 --> 29:05.250]  Um, there'll be more fun things, maybe more threats.
[29:05.350 --> 29:05.690]  Who knows?
[29:06.150 --> 29:13.310]  Uh, there are other lawsuit threats, of course, we're not just going to focus on lawsuit threats tonight, but, uh, it certainly could take up a lot of time.
[29:13.830 --> 29:20.250]  Um, the Ashley Madison lawsuits are starting, but they're starting, um, uh, actually, um, at the source.
[29:20.250 --> 29:30.470]  There's this guy, uh, who, uh, has pretty much been writing, um, almost every story about, um, uh, about the Ashley Madison, uh, quote unquote hack.
[29:30.670 --> 29:32.590]  Uh, his name is Krebs, Krebs on security.
[29:32.790 --> 29:43.930]  Uh, he posted a story about emails leaked from Ashley Madison that suggested the company's former chief technology officer Raha Bhatia hacked into a rival firm in 2012.
[29:44.190 --> 29:45.670]  Everything happened in 2012.
[29:46.230 --> 29:52.190]  Uh, now an attorney for the former executive is threatening a libel lawsuit against the author unless the story is retracted.
[29:52.310 --> 29:57.950]  According to his attorney, the part of the story they consider defamatory has to do with the headline of the piece and the following bit.
[29:58.130 --> 30:06.510]  A review of those missives shows that on at least one occasion, a former company executive hacked another dating website, exfiltrating their entire user database.
[30:06.510 --> 30:22.270]  On November 30th, 2012, uh, Raha Bhatia, uh, the founding chief technology officer of Ashley Madison.com sent a message to Bitterman notifying his boss of a security hall discovered in nerve.com, an American online magazine dedicated to sexual topics,
[30:22.370 --> 30:23.270]  relationships, and culture.
[30:23.390 --> 30:32.490]  At the time, nerve.com was experimenting with his own adult dating section and Bhatia said he uncovered a way to download and manipulate the nerve.com user database.
[30:32.730 --> 30:36.530]  Uh, they, uh, this is a quote, they did a very lousy job building their platform.
[30:36.530 --> 30:44.450]  I got their entire user base, Bhatia told Bitterman via email, uh, including in the message, uh, a link to a GitHub archive with a sample of the database.
[30:44.810 --> 30:52.050]  Also, I can turn any non-paying user into a paying user, vice versa, compose messages between users, check unread stats, et cetera.
[30:52.570 --> 30:59.370]  Well, I guess because the email got hacked and distributed everywhere, it's kind of, um, difficult to refute that.
[30:59.470 --> 31:20.350]  Uh, but, um, the, uh, the author of, of, of the original piece who is now being sued says, I have no intention of posting a retraction or correcting any elements of the story, but I'm publishing a copy of the letter in PDF form, uh, from Bhatia's lawyer in the likely event that other publications have also received libel and defamation threats from Ashley Madison and or its current and former
[31:20.350 --> 31:21.110]  employees.
[31:21.990 --> 31:34.770]  Um, so, um, and he also mentions a story at wire.com from Kim Zetter that ran shortly after my piece aired includes quite a few more colorful quotes from leaked emails that Bhatia allegedly sent, uh, to, uh, Bitterman there.
[31:34.990 --> 31:41.010]  And I guess he's trying to get more people involved in this, um, in this fun libel lawsuit that's going on.
[31:41.230 --> 31:46.430]  It just, I guess it was inevitable that something like this would happen, but, um, humorous all the same.
[31:46.810 --> 31:47.250]  Yeah.
[31:47.290 --> 31:58.030]  I mean, there's another case where the, the threat of the lawsuit clearly has no like to stand on, uh, grabs his publishing information that he reasonably believes to be true.
[31:58.190 --> 32:03.410]  Uh, but they could just make his life miserable if they feel like taking him to court.
[32:03.810 --> 32:06.030]  Uh, yeah, absolutely.
[32:06.770 --> 32:07.770]  Uh, Bernie, any thoughts on that?
[32:08.410 --> 32:22.230]  Well, on, on this case, I think, uh, um, I'm hoping that the, uh, the other website, I think you said it was Verve or Nerve, that got, uh, hacked by, uh, someone that worked for Ashley Madison, according to these internal documents that got, uh, leaked and exposed,
[32:22.890 --> 32:24.810]  um, they could be looking at criminal prosecution.
[32:24.810 --> 32:36.910]  I hope this company that got hacked, uh, might actually, uh, make an inquiry with the, with the Department of Justice and say, hey, this company admitted, uh, internally to having, uh, committed, uh, uh, what is it?
[32:36.970 --> 32:42.870]  Title 18 section, uh, 1030, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, uh, hacked into our computer system, stole our data.
[32:43.970 --> 32:46.310]  Um, hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
[32:46.310 --> 32:55.370]  And I think this company, uh, Ashley Madison, or the company that owns them, uh, needs to, uh, needs to be held accountable for their actions, at least in this respect.
[32:56.770 --> 33:00.750]  Yeah, it's, uh, it's, uh, this story never seems to die.
[33:01.150 --> 33:02.290]  I kind of wish it would.
[33:02.550 --> 33:04.630]  It's, it's getting, it's getting really, really old.
[33:04.890 --> 33:13.530]  Uh, but, uh, whenever you have a situation like this though, where, um, uh, threats are, are the, um, order of the day, you have to sort of counter them.
[33:13.530 --> 33:18.910]  And in this bigger case, yeah, you know, now these words that are being hotly contested are being spread around even more.
[33:19.030 --> 33:22.070]  And that's the result that, uh, you get from, uh, using intimidating tactics.
[33:22.310 --> 33:26.690]  Hey, speaking of intimidating tactics, um, Peoria, Peoria, Illinois.
[33:27.190 --> 33:38.270]  Um, the city of Peoria now owes $125,000 to a man they arrested last year, his crime operating a parody Twitter account for the city's mayor.
[33:38.270 --> 33:39.050]  Twitter.
[33:39.050 --> 33:39.230]  Wow.
[33:39.650 --> 33:39.910]  Yeah.
[33:39.950 --> 33:44.770]  It's just unbelievable to me that, uh, you can, uh, take Twitter that seriously.
[33:45.030 --> 33:48.430]  That's, that's our, that's our doorbell by the way, in case you wonder what that horrible noise is.
[33:48.530 --> 33:48.910]  Isn't that great?
[33:49.070 --> 33:50.650]  We get to hear everything in this room.
[33:50.910 --> 33:56.110]  Uh, but yeah, you, yeah, you operate a Twitter site that pisses somebody off.
[33:56.230 --> 34:00.410]  And next thing you know, you're being hauled into court or even arrested or worse.
[34:00.790 --> 34:01.250]  Twitter.
[34:01.950 --> 34:09.550]  In April of 2014, police raided the home of John Daniel, a Peoria resident who operated the Twitter handle, ready?
[34:09.890 --> 34:10.750]  Peoria mayor.
[34:11.170 --> 34:12.770]  That was his Twitter handle, Peoria mayor.
[34:13.150 --> 34:18.990]  On this account, he depicted third term mayor, Jim Artis, as a crude prostitute soliciting drug junkie.
[34:19.350 --> 34:20.790]  That's according to the Chicago Tribune.
[34:21.170 --> 34:25.790]  Uh, I'm not going to read some of the tweets here, but, uh, they are somewhat humorous.
[34:25.970 --> 34:29.770]  Um, you know, I doubt very much anybody would believe that was the actual mayor.
[34:29.970 --> 34:35.250]  I really, you know, even Rob Ford, I don't think people would believe that he was tweeting like that.
[34:35.250 --> 34:42.390]  Um, officers seized four computers, four iPhones, an iPad, and two Xboxes in the raid.
[34:42.390 --> 34:44.850]  They arrested Daniel under an Illinois law.
[34:45.210 --> 34:46.190]  Are you ready for this?
[34:46.330 --> 34:50.610]  The Illinois law prohibits falsely identifying as a public official.
[34:50.610 --> 35:05.750]  So if you were to open a, um, a Twitter account that said, uh, I am the president or something like that, you could be, uh, um, uh, according to this particular law, uh, you could be accused of impersonating the president or impersonating a cop.
[35:05.890 --> 35:06.070]  Okay.
[35:06.110 --> 35:06.610]  How about that?
[35:06.710 --> 35:07.470]  I'm a cop.
[35:07.630 --> 35:08.430]  That's your Twitter ID.
[35:08.930 --> 35:09.930]  Impersonating a police officer.
[35:09.930 --> 35:11.270]  You gotta wait for a long time for that.
[35:11.830 --> 35:16.230]  But isn't, uh, impersonation like, is it satire or isn't there some protection there?
[35:16.350 --> 35:17.090]  I mean, wouldn't, wouldn't...
[35:17.090 --> 35:18.090]  One would think, yes.
[35:18.530 --> 35:20.430]  Impersonating the mayor, the subject of the account.
[35:20.530 --> 35:21.170]  I mean, I don't know.
[35:21.430 --> 35:28.730]  I mean, the answer to your question is yes, which is why the city of Peoria settled with the guy or lost the lawsuit, uh, but lost anyway.
[35:28.730 --> 35:30.810]  Yeah, but the thing is they did it in the first place.
[35:31.010 --> 35:31.830]  That's the crazy part.
[35:31.970 --> 35:33.250]  So they were confused early on.
[35:33.450 --> 35:35.050]  Well, I don't know that they were confused.
[35:35.210 --> 35:36.670]  I think they, uh...
[35:36.670 --> 35:37.990]  No, they're still confused.
[35:38.150 --> 35:41.930]  The city of Peoria, like, is, I don't know, but not a tiny place.
[35:41.930 --> 35:42.550]  Oh, I've been there.
[35:42.670 --> 35:49.890]  Well, okay, but not a big enough place to have some lawyers on, on, on call who could tell them, like, you're gonna lose if you try this.
[35:50.170 --> 35:53.830]  But they did it anyway because, again, they thought they could get away with it.
[35:53.830 --> 36:00.490]  Uh, they certainly, you know, made the, the person who owned this Twitter account have a, a pretty bad week, at least.
[36:01.090 --> 36:10.670]  Uh, and there are people in the city of Peoria might think twice about parodying the mayor if they don't wanna, you know, be falsely arrested and, and have to go to court and all this stuff.
[36:11.050 --> 36:25.470]  And, and the money they're spending on this, spending on the, on the lawyers to fight this case, spending on the police officers' time to, to harass this guy, and spending on the eventual settlement, all comes from the taxpayers, not from the officials themselves who are,
[36:25.470 --> 36:27.130]  uh, doing this silly thing.
[36:27.570 --> 36:40.670]  I, I love the fact that they responded to this over-the-top comedic portrayal of, of their mayor as this, uh, big, uh, you know, criminal by going in and arresting this guy and stealing his Xboxes and stuff, and just going in over the top and bullying like,
[36:40.850 --> 36:42.530]  like the fictional version of their mayor.
[36:42.730 --> 36:47.490]  Well, also, uh, something to keep in mind is that, uh, they actually did think they, they, they could win.
[36:47.570 --> 36:48.110]  They still do.
[36:48.110 --> 36:55.610]  Uh, the officials say, we believe strongly that the city would have ultimately won the case, but settling early was the soundest fiscal strategy for the taxpayers.
[36:56.570 --> 37:04.770]  Now, uh, he was detained only briefly, they say, but, uh, the city's actions unleashed a wave of backlash against the mayor and the police.
[37:05.130 --> 37:13.650]  Represented by lawyers from the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois, Daniel filed a lawsuit against the city in June of last year, arguing that his first and fourth amendment were violated.
[37:13.650 --> 37:16.570]  I always thought the Twitter account was a joke for me and my friends.
[37:16.570 --> 37:21.250]  He said, I never dreamed that it resulted in my home being raided and me being placed under arrest.
[37:21.530 --> 37:25.910]  And many legal experts felt the same way saying satire falls under the realm of free speech.
[37:26.010 --> 37:29.450]  Parody doesn't equate to impersonation of a public official.
[37:30.210 --> 37:33.950]  Um, he has since changed his handle to not Peoria mayor.
[37:34.730 --> 37:38.390]  And a number of accounts parodying Jim artists have popped up all over Twitter.
[37:38.590 --> 37:40.430]  I, you know, I'm upset that he changed his handle.
[37:40.430 --> 37:43.610]  He should be using the same damn handle and being, being all the more offensive.
[37:43.610 --> 37:45.350]  I think Bernie, what, what do you think about this?
[37:45.670 --> 37:46.830]  Uh, I agree with you.
[37:47.070 --> 37:58.710]  I, I, and I never thought of, uh, the mayor of Peoria, uh, Jim artists as a crude prostitute soliciting drug junkie, but I think a lot more people now will associate his name with that, uh, satirical description.
[37:59.050 --> 38:00.550]  Um, back to what Mike said.
[38:00.690 --> 38:10.590]  I, this is something that really sticks in my craw when the public has to pay huge amounts of money for the misbehavior of their elected officials.
[38:10.890 --> 38:26.550]  I think, uh, Jim artists should be paying this, uh, Peoria, Peoria mayor, Jim artists should be paying this $125,000 out of his pocket because he's the one that illegally ordered his police to, uh, to raid this guy, uh, in violation of the guy's rights.
[38:26.770 --> 38:28.770]  So this happens time and time again.
[38:28.770 --> 38:35.690]  We've seen a lot of lawsuits against cities and the culpable parties are never the ones that have to pay out of their pocket.
[38:35.870 --> 38:36.650]  And that bothers me.
[38:37.730 --> 38:38.450]  I'm curious.
[38:38.790 --> 38:46.130]  Would it be okay if I, or what the, what you should do is the, the mayor account, if he still has it should retweet the, not the mayor account.
[38:48.090 --> 38:48.450]  Wow.
[38:48.750 --> 38:49.210]  It's very meta.
[38:49.470 --> 38:49.650]  Yeah.
[38:50.970 --> 38:52.990]  But I'm curious, did they send him any communication?
[38:52.990 --> 38:53.570]  I missed that.
[38:53.650 --> 38:54.590]  Did, did they communicate with it?
[38:54.650 --> 38:55.770]  They just went right to his house.
[38:55.850 --> 38:57.610]  It sounds like a mayor that just has some friends.
[38:57.790 --> 39:05.150]  He could just, you know, throw a case at and they would, you know, uh, rank rain in this, this person just as a favor or something.
[39:05.490 --> 39:07.270]  Did they send him much communication at all?
[39:07.390 --> 39:07.910]  Or what?
[39:08.610 --> 39:09.010]  No.
[39:09.850 --> 39:11.410]  Not according to this story that I see.
[39:11.610 --> 39:16.470]  It was just, oh, we saw this guy on the internet and we're, we're going to go to his house and arrest and roll him now.
[39:16.810 --> 39:19.010]  I mean, regardless, he, he did nothing wrong.
[39:19.270 --> 39:24.910]  So, I mean, if they send you a letter saying you've done something wrong and you haven't done something wrong, he wouldn't respond.
[39:24.910 --> 39:26.990]  You know, like why, what, what should he do about that?
[39:27.290 --> 39:29.230]  You know, the answer is keep, keep on going.
[39:29.430 --> 39:36.210]  And, uh, apparently the police, uh, force at the suggestion of the mayor, they were waiting for his reply with bated breath.
[39:36.510 --> 39:36.510]  Yeah.
[39:36.550 --> 39:38.970]  I mean, or they didn't send him any letters at all.
[39:39.510 --> 39:41.230]  Either way, it's, it's bad news.
[39:41.450 --> 39:44.570]  You know, I myself am occasionally guilty of telling a joke on Twitter.
[39:44.810 --> 39:49.130]  So, uh, you know, just in advance, I'd like to inform any authorities listening that I don't have any Xboxes.
[39:50.810 --> 39:51.450]  Fair enough.
[39:51.890 --> 39:52.510]  Good to know.
[39:52.510 --> 39:58.170]  It just sounds like overreach for somebody that has power and just overreach without any real outside look.
[39:58.350 --> 39:59.650]  He didn't like what the guy was saying.
[39:59.810 --> 40:10.990]  It was like that, that mean person over there needs to be punished and they can just, uh, you know, dispatch whomever, uh, is, is listening to them stupidly as they are to, to go do their dirty work.
[40:12.170 --> 40:15.210]  Do we have anything to talk about that isn't absurd legal threats?
[40:15.470 --> 40:23.910]  Uh, well, we have, we have, uh, a bunch of letters from our listeners, which only two thirds of those are legal threats, but some of them are actually quite nice.
[40:23.990 --> 40:28.690]  So, um, why don't we, uh, go into that and then we'll, we're going to try, uh, Kyle, I believe you've been setting this up.
[40:28.770 --> 40:29.970]  We're going to try and take phone calls.
[40:30.090 --> 40:30.250]  Is that right?
[40:30.250 --> 40:30.570]  Yeah.
[40:30.790 --> 40:32.330]  I'm, I'm, I've worked out a way.
[40:32.550 --> 40:37.390]  Maybe we can interface, um, our handset with the board, but I'm going to have to mute live.
[40:37.530 --> 40:41.070]  So people that are calling don't hear, hear themselves in delay while they're talking.
[40:41.890 --> 40:46.890]  But anyway, we're going to keep our fingers crossed and everyone can look forward to being guinea pigs surrounding that.
[40:47.070 --> 40:47.370]  Okay.
[40:47.370 --> 40:53.630]  Well let's, uh, let's read two letters and then we're going to try and take a phone call and see what happens.
[40:53.910 --> 40:54.570]  How does that sound?
[40:54.850 --> 40:55.790]  That sounds delightful.
[40:55.790 --> 40:56.150]  Okay.
[40:56.610 --> 40:59.990]  Uh, I programmed, I programmed our phone to go to a cell phone.
[41:00.290 --> 41:02.550]  I programmed our special phone number to go to a cell phone.
[41:02.650 --> 41:04.190]  To the official 2600 handset?
[41:04.330 --> 41:07.390]  Uh, well, no, it's not official, but it's, it's, it's close enough for now.
[41:07.850 --> 41:08.550]  The off the hook.
[41:09.210 --> 41:11.690]  Yeah, the one that we dig out of the closet here.
[41:11.750 --> 41:13.490]  Took apart and soldered to the mixer.
[41:13.710 --> 41:15.670]  It's specially wired and, um, hopefully will work.
[41:15.670 --> 41:16.630]  Alright, make sure it's the right number.
[41:16.670 --> 41:17.890]  I don't want people calling somebody else.
[41:18.310 --> 41:19.370]  Why don't they call somebody else?
[41:19.470 --> 41:20.610]  That's, they'll have to handle it.
[41:20.730 --> 41:22.370]  Yeah, I mean, I guess we should clarify for the listener.
[41:22.450 --> 41:26.610]  We haven't given out the number yet, so if you call a number that you think will reach us, you're wrong.
[41:26.710 --> 41:27.030]  Yeah, good luck.
[41:27.210 --> 41:28.130]  Uh, here's a letter.
[41:28.370 --> 41:32.590]  I, uh, dear Emmanuel, I just wanted to thank you and the off the hook staff for having a radio show that doesn't suck.
[41:33.210 --> 41:33.810]  How's that?
[41:34.170 --> 41:35.310]  We, we don't suck.
[41:35.430 --> 41:35.630]  That's...
[41:35.630 --> 41:36.330]  That's high praise.
[41:36.570 --> 41:37.490]  Can't ask for more than that.
[41:37.850 --> 41:42.810]  Off the hook in 2600 has inspired me to, uh, think differently and explore the technology that surrounds us.
[41:42.810 --> 41:47.130]  I use my skills to make, modify, fix, program anything I need in the film industry.
[41:47.410 --> 41:51.450]  I enjoy the challenge of exploration, knowing why something works instead of how.
[41:51.890 --> 41:53.110]  Sometimes in addition to how.
[41:53.410 --> 41:56.250]  Uh, I appreciate the inspiration 2600 has brought to our culture.
[41:56.370 --> 41:59.290]  Please educate people more about the difference between criminals and hackers.
[41:59.810 --> 42:01.970]  Kevin Mitnick was such a great surprise guest.
[42:02.170 --> 42:02.610]  Signed, Alex.
[42:02.750 --> 42:04.730]  Thank you very much, Alex, for that wonderful letter.
[42:04.730 --> 42:18.330]  And, um, yeah, you know, we do try, we do try and, and, and, um, preach the differences between criminals and hackers because, well, the world needs to know that media needs to know that we have such a magical community here that I think, um, it's, it's well deserving of,
[42:18.350 --> 42:22.370]  of praise and of, um, uh, just lasting a lot longer.
[42:22.570 --> 42:22.870]  Yeah.
[42:22.990 --> 42:24.650]  It's not, uh, a binary.
[42:24.850 --> 42:33.790]  It's not, uh, it is much more, uh, nuanced and layered and, uh, and we like to speak to that because you can't just label people.
[42:33.790 --> 42:35.590]  That's never been really great.
[42:35.750 --> 42:38.630]  No, no, it doesn't work really well in our, in our world.
[42:38.850 --> 42:42.650]  Uh, here's another letter, uh, from Bernice regarding Google's alphabet.
[42:42.990 --> 42:47.470]  Uh, it seems to mean betting on alpha results from all the new companies to be created.
[42:47.590 --> 42:57.910]  That's kind of clever, uh, alpha betting on it, but I think they know damn well what they're doing using one of the first words that kids, uh, ever learn and, um, and just ingrain themselves in their brains.
[42:58.290 --> 43:00.590]  Here's what Larry Page said on the Google blog.
[43:00.590 --> 43:05.670]  For Sergey and me, this is a very exciting new chapter in the life of Google, the birth of alphabet.
[43:06.050 --> 43:15.450]  We liked the name alphabet because it means a collection of letters that represent language, one of humanity's most important innovations, and is the core of how we index with Google search.
[43:15.710 --> 43:18.270]  We also liked that it means alpha dash bet.
[43:18.450 --> 43:20.990]  Alpha is investment return above benchmark, which we strive for.
[43:21.310 --> 43:25.490]  I should add that we are not intending for this to be a big consumer brand with related products.
[43:25.630 --> 43:29.530]  The whole point is that alphabet companies should have independence and develop their own brands.
[43:30.110 --> 43:35.930]  Well, it's going to be interesting to see what happens, to see how that, um, how that actually, uh, develops over the years.
[43:35.930 --> 43:39.010]  Any predictions where we'll be in a year from now, 10 years from now?
[43:39.970 --> 43:45.390]  I hope I'm in a position where I don't have to care about these financial wheelings and dealings, but I think you're already in that position.
[43:45.650 --> 43:45.790]  Yeah.
[43:45.950 --> 43:52.210]  Well, I, I, I'm in a position where I don't care, but I hope I'm in a position where I don't have to care because it's not, you know, like affecting me.
[43:52.390 --> 43:55.470]  Uh, but that's, that's not necessarily a good bet to take.
[43:56.070 --> 43:57.490]  And that totally doesn't answer the question.
[43:57.570 --> 43:58.690]  Where do you think we'll be in 10 years?
[43:58.790 --> 44:00.090]  Not where do you think you'll be in 10 years?
[44:01.130 --> 44:02.590]  I think they're going to have a lot.
[44:02.970 --> 44:03.650]  This is my, my prediction.
[44:03.810 --> 44:11.410]  I think it's going to be a lot harder for them to disassociate, to unmarry themselves from the Google brand.
[44:11.530 --> 44:15.450]  Just with this new thing, I think it's going to be confusing for consumers more than anything.
[44:15.450 --> 44:21.390]  I wish them some moniker of luck, but yeah, I don't think it's going to translate.
[44:21.530 --> 44:31.210]  Well, it might be something that those in the know, perhaps, uh, people with windows in their offices maybe care about and, and know the distinction about.
[44:31.470 --> 44:35.210]  Um, but I, I don't think it's really gonna be as apparent.
[44:35.210 --> 44:42.130]  I think we're going to see a lot of different, um, companies for every letter of the alphabet they haven't used.
[44:42.550 --> 44:44.590]  Um, but I don't know.
[44:44.590 --> 44:45.090]  All right.
[44:45.250 --> 44:47.930]  I think it's going to be a bit diluted and lost in history.
[44:48.470 --> 44:49.490]  I guess time will tell.
[44:50.150 --> 44:50.590]  All right.
[44:50.590 --> 44:53.110]  Are we ready to begin this, uh, great experiment of ours?
[44:53.410 --> 44:55.670]  Um, I'll, I'll, I'll give out the phone number.
[44:55.970 --> 44:56.610]  What do you think, Kyle?
[44:56.750 --> 44:59.210]  You don't look very, uh, very confident there.
[44:59.330 --> 45:00.890]  You're, you're sweating and you're, you're shaking.
[45:01.430 --> 45:05.210]  Um, you know, worst thing that can happen is it sounds like all the other shows that we've tried to take.
[45:05.390 --> 45:08.510]  Yes, folks, I did say I'd give an update every week and nothing has changed.
[45:08.610 --> 45:09.890]  There are still no phone lines in this place.
[45:10.030 --> 45:11.150]  I don't know what we're waiting for.
[45:11.630 --> 45:12.990]  Uh, we're right here on Atlantic out here.
[45:12.990 --> 45:14.990]  You can see us on Atlantic Avenue phone company.
[45:15.130 --> 45:23.430]  Come here, put in, uh, 10 phone lines, whatever, five phone lines, one phone line, something so that we have, uh, more phone calls and then just Bernie.
[45:25.690 --> 45:27.470]  Uh, and he's not even saying it.
[45:27.530 --> 45:27.670]  Okay.
[45:27.750 --> 45:27.890]  Yeah.
[45:27.930 --> 45:34.010]  So, um, uh, we'd like to take phone calls, but we're going to try now by, by Kyle's, uh, wiring here in the studio.
[45:34.010 --> 45:38.970]  So just, just for everybody here, this when we're talking is up, down when they're talking.
[45:38.990 --> 45:40.550]  Wait, I have to, I have to touch something.
[45:40.730 --> 45:41.310]  Oh, you're doing it.
[45:41.370 --> 45:41.570]  Okay.
[45:41.890 --> 45:49.750]  I might get confused, but everybody let's, let's take, you know, time to work on our responses, give a little bit of a pace so I can keep up.
[45:49.750 --> 45:52.630]  How about you just don't tell us about that knob?
[45:52.790 --> 45:52.890]  No.
[45:52.950 --> 45:55.410]  And, and, and we just assume everything is working magically.
[45:55.570 --> 45:59.330]  I just want people to maybe hear how much cabling is involved here.
[45:59.470 --> 46:00.390]  What in God's name is that?
[46:00.450 --> 46:02.510]  It looks like a rat's nest of cables there.
[46:02.770 --> 46:02.810]  It is.
[46:03.170 --> 46:03.570]  Wow.
[46:03.730 --> 46:04.850]  It's really unwieldy.
[46:04.930 --> 46:06.870]  There's all kinds of wires and adapters and things.
[46:06.970 --> 46:09.250]  It took me a little bit to figure out if this works.
[46:09.350 --> 46:16.550]  I'm not exactly sure if the, um, the level line levels and things of that nature are actually going to fit, but I think it will work.
[46:16.710 --> 46:17.430]  Um, and it'd be interesting.
[46:17.430 --> 46:21.230]  So if you can hear us mix back when we're talking, that'll be great.
[46:21.470 --> 46:23.210]  I mean, that don't mean everything works.
[46:23.390 --> 46:23.670]  I'm impressed.
[46:23.770 --> 46:27.070]  You found the end to plug in because that's such a mess of cables there.
[46:27.170 --> 46:32.070]  I went through deep down in our, our boxes of wires in the old, uh, the old office workshop.
[46:32.210 --> 46:36.050]  So if you are a first caller, um, then, uh, there'll be some experimentation.
[46:36.050 --> 46:38.030]  It might not be the most pleasant situation for you.
[46:38.090 --> 46:38.810]  You might hear feedback.
[46:38.810 --> 46:42.030]  You might hear all kinds of things, but you will be a pioneer.
[46:42.030 --> 46:42.990]  And that's what this is all about.
[46:43.110 --> 46:43.210]  Okay.
[46:43.270 --> 46:44.030]  We're going to give out the phone number.
[46:44.410 --> 46:46.330]  It's three area code three, three, one.
[46:46.510 --> 46:47.230]  I have no idea where that is.
[46:47.430 --> 46:47.790]  Three, three, one.
[46:48.010 --> 46:48.450]  Two, two, three.
[46:48.870 --> 46:48.930]  W.
[46:49.250 --> 46:49.350]  B.
[46:49.650 --> 46:49.650]  A.
[46:49.710 --> 46:49.910]  I.
[46:50.170 --> 46:50.970]  That is our phone number.
[46:51.090 --> 46:51.610]  Three, three, one.
[46:51.850 --> 46:52.250]  Two, two, three.
[46:52.530 --> 46:52.690]  W.
[46:52.930 --> 46:53.030]  B.
[46:53.170 --> 46:53.310]  A.
[46:53.350 --> 46:53.530]  I.
[46:53.970 --> 46:57.030]  Uh, when a call comes in, I don't know what's going to happen.
[46:57.170 --> 46:58.850]  I really have no idea.
[46:59.250 --> 47:04.290]  Um, well, we'll find out when it's, it comes up on this channel here or the one next to it.
[47:04.390 --> 47:05.370]  The one, the one next.
[47:05.430 --> 47:05.730]  This one.
[47:05.870 --> 47:06.950]  I believe that's it.
[47:06.950 --> 47:07.170]  Okay.
[47:07.870 --> 47:10.390]  Um, well, the phone is not yet ringing.
[47:10.670 --> 47:11.690]  At least I don't think it is.
[47:11.890 --> 47:14.250]  Um, no, it's not ringing yet.
[47:14.330 --> 47:14.730]  Oh, there it is.
[47:14.730 --> 47:15.430]  It's ringing now.
[47:15.670 --> 47:17.390]  Uh, so I should answer this.
[47:17.950 --> 47:18.350]  Okay.
[47:19.250 --> 47:21.590]  Um, and I am answering it now.
[47:21.590 --> 47:21.850]  Okay.
[47:21.870 --> 47:24.730]  I've answered the phone and I'm going to bring this up and let's see what happens.
[47:24.890 --> 47:25.830]  Is there anybody there?
[47:26.930 --> 47:27.330]  Hello.
[47:27.750 --> 47:27.790]  Hello.
[47:28.250 --> 47:29.130]  I hear nobody.
[47:29.490 --> 47:29.690]  Oh, wait.
[47:29.730 --> 47:30.330]  I didn't press the button.
[47:30.950 --> 47:31.170]  Hello.
[47:31.310 --> 47:32.090]  Is anybody there?
[47:33.230 --> 47:33.910]  Speak up.
[47:34.710 --> 47:34.970]  Hello.
[47:35.650 --> 47:36.550]  Hey, we hear you.
[47:36.710 --> 47:37.250]  We hear you.
[47:37.670 --> 47:38.530]  Hey, I hear you.
[47:39.190 --> 47:40.870]  Do you hear us over the telephone?
[47:42.590 --> 47:42.990]  Hey.
[47:45.090 --> 47:45.490]  Okay.
[47:45.490 --> 47:47.630]  Well, I can, I can barely hear them.
[47:47.790 --> 47:48.210]  They're there.
[47:48.410 --> 47:49.170]  Hey, nice to hear you.
[47:49.390 --> 47:50.350]  Yeah, I can hear you.
[47:50.430 --> 47:51.330]  It's coming a little slower.
[47:51.330 --> 47:51.770]  Okay.
[47:51.990 --> 47:52.470]  It's coming slower.
[47:52.930 --> 47:53.810]  Uh, well, that's good.
[47:53.970 --> 47:55.350]  This is, this is definitely progress.
[47:55.650 --> 48:01.150]  Um, we, we, we do have, um, somebody on, on the air now, uh, who's calling in on the, on the telephone.
[48:01.350 --> 48:02.990]  Uh, do you have anything to say, caller?
[48:02.990 --> 48:07.490]  I do have, um, somebody on, on the air now.
[48:07.790 --> 48:08.030]  Okay.
[48:08.090 --> 48:13.330]  That's me, but please turn the radio down so that we don't get, uh, confusing, uh, a cross talk there.
[48:13.510 --> 48:15.050]  I'm listening to your radio show.
[48:15.130 --> 48:15.550]  I love it.
[48:16.490 --> 48:17.010]  That's me.
[48:17.310 --> 48:18.210]  First time listener.
[48:18.350 --> 48:18.530]  Okay.
[48:19.150 --> 48:19.690]  I'm sorry.
[48:20.230 --> 48:20.530]  All right.
[48:20.630 --> 48:21.330]  That's, that's good.
[48:21.390 --> 48:23.010]  Yeah, this is my first time listening to your radio show, man.
[48:23.010 --> 48:23.450]  I love it.
[48:23.490 --> 48:24.270]  I love your guys' work.
[48:24.770 --> 48:25.490]  Well, thanks.
[48:25.570 --> 48:26.310]  It's good to hear that.
[48:26.430 --> 48:27.130]  It's good to hear that.
[48:27.530 --> 48:29.230]  Um, and where are you calling from?
[48:32.790 --> 48:34.430]  Uh, can you tell us where you're calling from?
[48:34.430 --> 48:34.810]  It's good to hear that.
[48:35.010 --> 48:35.590]  It's good to hear that.
[48:36.050 --> 48:37.630]  Um, and where are you calling from?
[48:37.730 --> 48:38.030]  What is it?
[48:38.030 --> 48:39.130]  I'm calling from Brooklyn, New York.
[48:39.270 --> 48:39.890]  Brooklyn, New York.
[48:40.030 --> 48:40.170]  Okay.
[48:40.310 --> 48:41.170]  Is it really that?
[48:41.310 --> 48:43.470]  Oh, because you're listening on the radio and we're in delay.
[48:43.970 --> 48:44.210]  All right.
[48:44.270 --> 48:45.370]  Listen, thanks for that first call.
[48:45.490 --> 48:50.330]  We're going to, uh, assess, uh, what we have to, uh, Kyle, tell us what, um, what we did wrong that time.
[48:50.630 --> 48:50.950]  Everything.
[48:51.250 --> 48:51.450]  Okay.
[48:51.470 --> 48:53.270]  Well, tell me what I did wrong and I won't do it again.
[48:53.970 --> 48:55.910]  Uh, it just sounds really bad, uh, coming back through.
[48:56.090 --> 48:57.830]  I think the levels are a little low.
[48:58.010 --> 48:59.430]  I don't know if we can maybe raise the volume.
[48:59.630 --> 49:02.170]  Well, it seemed like he was listening to us through the radio and we're on delay.
[49:02.170 --> 49:05.050]  So that's going to take another seven seconds just to hear my voice.
[49:05.610 --> 49:11.550]  Look, Thomas Edison went through the same exact, not Thomas, Alexander Graham Bell went through the same thing, uh, getting the telephone to work properly.
[49:11.550 --> 49:12.450]  And it was a hassle.
[49:12.470 --> 49:13.070]  Then it's a hassle.
[49:13.210 --> 49:15.850]  Now, um, what do you think we can do to improve?
[49:15.990 --> 49:18.990]  Is there, we're getting calls like crazy coming in right now.
[49:19.410 --> 49:19.730]  Okay.
[49:19.990 --> 49:20.910]  So should we try it?
[49:20.950 --> 49:21.470]  Just try again.
[49:21.650 --> 49:27.510]  Should we tell the listeners to do something, to speak directly into the phone, not have the radio on, or can they maybe not hear us?
[49:27.590 --> 49:28.650]  He said he could hear us over the phone.
[49:28.710 --> 49:29.350]  Let's just go for it.
[49:29.410 --> 49:29.950]  We'll see what we can do.
[49:30.090 --> 49:30.330]  Okay.
[49:30.330 --> 49:31.990]  Here's another phone call.
[49:32.390 --> 49:33.170]  Uh, good evening.
[49:33.170 --> 49:34.070]  You're on the radio.
[49:34.170 --> 49:34.870]  Can you hear us?
[49:35.890 --> 49:36.770]  Yes, I can.
[49:37.350 --> 49:38.790]  This sounds pretty good.
[49:38.970 --> 49:46.270]  If you can hear me, I was just, I was just curious about the, uh, you guys covered the Google ad block incident.
[49:47.110 --> 49:54.950]  Um, it was all over the news a couple of days ago and Google fool people claim that it's a bug in, in the Chrome system of that.
[49:55.090 --> 49:56.490]  It allows you to just play in that.
[49:56.570 --> 49:59.110]  It'll just play an ad on YouTube, even if you have ad blockers.
[49:59.270 --> 50:00.830]  But come on, we all know Google.
[50:01.010 --> 50:01.410]  Any thoughts?
[50:01.970 --> 50:05.230]  Uh, well, could you maybe explain, cause I don't know anything about this.
[50:05.290 --> 50:07.790]  Could you explain exactly what happened from the beginning?
[50:08.650 --> 50:20.870]  Apparently there was an update where, uh, for Chrome, which was apparently some sort of a programming error where even if you have ad block, it would disable the skip ad button.
[50:21.110 --> 50:23.310]  So it would run the full ad on YouTube videos.
[50:24.990 --> 50:25.390]  Interesting.
[50:26.430 --> 50:29.370]  Well, uh, yeah, I mean, they're gonna claim it's a bug.
[50:29.630 --> 50:43.110]  Uh, Google's, you know, Google and a lot of other large internet companies have, uh, annoyed their users to such the point that, uh, most of us or many of us use ad blockers just to be able to like browse the web in peace.
[50:43.250 --> 50:45.930]  And, uh, this obviously threatens their revenue models.
[50:46.070 --> 50:50.930]  They, they think they're entitled to show us things that are not the thing that we wish to see.
[50:51.270 --> 50:55.070]  And, uh, you can probably tell from my phrasing that, that I don't agree with that analysis.
[50:55.450 --> 51:12.910]  Um, and there's going to be some, some sort of fight, you know, that when do you control your own computer that you're using to browse the web or do the people who, whose websites you're trying to visit control it is, is I think a, an important question that we're going to have to try and answer over the next years.
[51:13.670 --> 51:15.790]  Does that, uh, age old question.
[51:18.010 --> 51:19.310]  You have an age old question?
[51:19.850 --> 51:22.710]  That is, that's an age old question for computers.
[51:22.710 --> 51:28.170]  I think it's whether the users control their own machines or do other forces that make the machines do.
[51:28.310 --> 51:29.290]  And it's an eternal struggle.
[51:29.570 --> 51:29.890]  Absolutely.
[51:30.290 --> 51:33.310]  Hey, listen, as you're a caller, we can hear you very well.
[51:33.470 --> 51:35.090]  How well are you hearing us over the phone?
[51:35.970 --> 51:38.030]  You guys come in crystal clear.
[51:38.330 --> 51:43.030]  There is a little bit of feedback that's garbled, but it's not obscenely loud.
[51:43.230 --> 51:43.470]  Okay.
[51:43.530 --> 51:46.510]  That's something that I think could be eliminated in the future of fine tuning.
[51:46.510 --> 51:47.230]  Yes.
[51:47.470 --> 51:49.630]  And also in the future of us actually getting phone lines here.
[51:49.850 --> 51:49.990]  Yeah.
[51:50.150 --> 51:51.090]  I can change the levels.
[51:51.970 --> 51:52.370]  Yeah.
[51:52.610 --> 51:52.890]  All right.
[51:52.930 --> 51:53.950]  Listen, you're calling from New Jersey.
[51:53.950 --> 51:54.450]  Are you not?
[51:55.710 --> 51:55.930]  Hmm?
[51:56.130 --> 51:57.330]  You're calling from New Jersey, right?
[51:58.730 --> 51:59.130]  Yes.
[51:59.550 --> 52:00.250]  Oh God.
[52:00.550 --> 52:03.290]  Star six, seven will block your caller ID in the future.
[52:04.030 --> 52:04.690]  Oh God.
[52:04.790 --> 52:06.030]  I can see the nuke already.
[52:07.450 --> 52:08.610]  Thanks so much for your call.
[52:09.590 --> 52:10.110]  You're welcome.
[52:10.290 --> 52:11.550]  And we're going to try and take a couple more.
[52:11.690 --> 52:12.510]  Kyle, that worked great.
[52:13.030 --> 52:13.330]  Yeah.
[52:13.450 --> 52:16.610]  I found a gain on the board and it's still, I think, only in one channel.
[52:16.730 --> 52:19.690]  I don't know why it's not stereo, but we're playing and it seems to be connected.
[52:19.690 --> 52:20.090]  I'm getting it in both ears.
[52:20.310 --> 52:20.830]  You're getting it in both.
[52:20.890 --> 52:21.610]  I'm only getting it in one.
[52:21.670 --> 52:23.730]  It could be my setup of monitoring here.
[52:23.890 --> 52:24.150]  Okay.
[52:24.210 --> 52:25.370]  It's only one over here as well.
[52:25.510 --> 52:25.810]  Is it?
[52:25.930 --> 52:26.050]  Okay.
[52:26.110 --> 52:28.410]  That might be another side effect.
[52:28.430 --> 52:29.370]  Just on that side of the room.
[52:29.610 --> 52:29.930]  Okay.
[52:30.050 --> 52:35.590]  Well, if you're hearing this later on and it's only in one ear, then I'm wrong.
[52:35.590 --> 52:37.150]  And it was only going through.
[52:37.290 --> 52:37.930]  Sorry about that.
[52:38.470 --> 52:43.030]  Assuming you have two speakers on your radio, you'll be able to hear one way or another.
[52:43.170 --> 52:46.810]  Our phone number is 331-223-WBAI.
[52:46.810 --> 52:50.370]  We only have time for maybe one more call, but it would be cool.
[52:50.490 --> 52:52.370]  It's more phone calls than we've taken in a very long time.
[52:52.470 --> 52:55.850]  I mean, we can just fix it for our podcast audience.
[52:56.010 --> 52:56.470]  They'll never know.
[52:56.610 --> 52:58.990]  We could, but that's revisionism and we don't engage in that.
[52:59.830 --> 53:02.030]  Well, how do they know if we did or not?
[53:02.230 --> 53:03.510]  You could be lying right now.
[53:03.510 --> 53:04.190]  Yeah, I could be.
[53:04.330 --> 53:04.570]  You're right.
[53:04.790 --> 53:05.510]  But I would know.
[53:05.710 --> 53:07.570]  Well, what if we have a stereo outro?
[53:07.890 --> 53:09.050]  I think it would mess things up.
[53:09.330 --> 53:11.690]  Well, we do have a stereo outro, but that's coming a little bit later.
[53:12.510 --> 53:12.830]  Okay.
[53:13.030 --> 53:14.250]  Waiting for that phone call to come in.
[53:15.550 --> 53:19.290]  Again, 331-223-WBAI is our phone number.
[53:19.350 --> 53:20.630]  That's 9224.
[53:20.710 --> 53:24.690]  And what we're going to try to do this time, assuming a call comes in, we're going to try and bring Bernie in as well.
[53:24.690 --> 53:30.790]  So we'll have Bernie on the phone talking to these people on the other phone and see if everybody can hear each other.
[53:30.790 --> 53:32.430]  So the experimentation continues.
[53:33.510 --> 53:36.710]  And I assume this phone is smart enough to light up if I'm getting a call.
[53:37.670 --> 53:37.990]  Yeah.
[53:38.170 --> 53:39.170]  Well, it's not lighting up.
[53:39.230 --> 53:40.270]  So I don't know if I'm not getting calls.
[53:40.450 --> 53:41.230]  What has been wrong?
[53:41.230 --> 53:41.370]  Okay.
[53:41.390 --> 53:42.070]  We are getting a call.
[53:42.250 --> 53:44.150]  And yes, congratulations, caller.
[53:44.270 --> 53:45.210]  You are calling from unknown.
[53:45.210 --> 53:46.470]  I do not have your caller ID.
[53:47.990 --> 53:49.230]  Let's answer that call.
[53:49.410 --> 53:49.830]  Good evening.
[53:49.870 --> 53:50.730]  You're on the air.
[53:50.850 --> 53:51.530]  Can you hear us?
[53:52.650 --> 53:53.290]  Oh, yeah.
[53:53.910 --> 53:54.270]  Like...
[53:54.270 --> 53:56.470]  You sound like all two pizzas from...
[53:57.130 --> 54:02.570]  Well, I don't want to tell you what you sound like, but we at least can hear each other.
[54:02.850 --> 54:04.130]  I'm going to bring Bernie in now.
[54:04.210 --> 54:05.490]  Bernie, are you able to hear this?
[54:05.570 --> 54:06.830]  And can the caller hear Bernie?
[54:07.430 --> 54:09.250]  Yes, I can hear the caller really well.
[54:09.450 --> 54:10.670]  And caller, can you hear me?
[54:11.330 --> 54:13.350]  Yeah, you actually sound...
[54:13.350 --> 54:14.850]  Yeah, you sound crystal clear.
[54:15.230 --> 54:15.530]  Wow.
[54:15.750 --> 54:15.950]  Wow.
[54:15.950 --> 54:17.050]  This is amazing.
[54:17.550 --> 54:33.170]  My imagination would be, wouldn't Google say, you know, they come from the position that since you're using their search engine, that there would be certain limitations or some rights that they would have as far as the copper badges and the like?
[54:35.270 --> 54:36.590]  Bernie, I believe that's for you.
[54:38.150 --> 54:40.630]  Oh, I'm not sure I understand his question.
[54:40.630 --> 54:42.350]  He's trying to fade out there for a second.
[54:42.410 --> 54:43.490]  Well, ask him directly.
[54:43.490 --> 54:44.190]  He can hear you.
[54:44.330 --> 54:46.830]  Hey, listener, can you restate your question, please?
[54:47.910 --> 55:04.990]  Yes, as far as Google, wouldn't they come from the position that since it is their server that you're using their search engine, that they would have some limitations or impositions on the user?
[55:06.830 --> 55:11.230]  You mean with regard to this copyright thing we were talking about earlier or something else?
[55:11.230 --> 55:11.990]  Yes, exactly.
[55:13.630 --> 55:27.130]  I think Google's lawyers are much smarter than the people at Trunk Archive or whoever they were that sent this fraudulent legal threat letter in the mail using mail fraud to 2,600.
[55:27.130 --> 55:30.650]  So I think their lawyers are smarter than to try that.
[55:31.810 --> 55:42.430]  Yeah, I think they would probably see it as a liability more than anything else because they're pretty well off in some of their other business models and areas of business.
[55:42.430 --> 55:42.450]  Yes.
[55:42.710 --> 55:46.210]  Hey, we're going to have to leave it there as far as this discussion.
[55:46.770 --> 55:52.470]  Please write to us, OTH at 2600.com is our email address.
[55:53.610 --> 56:04.890]  You know, we're talking about copyright infringement, so we might as well go out with something that has a lot to do with copyright infringement, a song from a group called Jams, or is it a group called ABBA?
[56:05.630 --> 56:06.270]  Who knows?
[56:06.410 --> 56:09.810]  It caused a bit of controversy, and that's what we're all about.
[56:09.810 --> 56:11.330]  Stay tuned for their personal computer show.
[56:11.470 --> 56:11.810]  Good night.
[56:35.820 --> 56:40.980]  Every time I saw TV or I read the newspaper, there were all these stories about Stevie and the Raper.
[56:41.120 --> 56:43.340]  The Zerskong connection and the Peter Wright case.
[56:43.480 --> 56:45.700]  The loony left canceled with a budgeted disgrace.
[56:45.900 --> 56:48.020]  I asked myself, what am I to believe?
[56:48.180 --> 56:50.520]  When the cancer is a killing, John Player went to leave.
[56:50.680 --> 56:55.380]  With masters of the universe and designer death, they all keep talking about criticized dress.
[56:55.660 --> 56:56.740]  Very nice dress.
[57:00.080 --> 57:02.480]  When I was younger, I knew just who to hate.
[57:02.620 --> 57:04.940]  From the teachers in that classroom to the leaders of our state.
[57:05.040 --> 57:06.100]  I'm registered to vote.
[57:06.280 --> 57:07.340]  This pleasant land's free.
[57:07.460 --> 57:08.480]  So I took the intercity.
[57:08.620 --> 57:09.660]  For democracy and me.
[57:09.840 --> 57:12.080]  I knocked it at the door, but they didn't let me in.
[57:12.160 --> 57:14.480]  So I kicked it down, and I walked right dead.
[57:14.480 --> 57:15.760]  She was standing at the bar.
[57:15.880 --> 57:17.080]  While Healy cut his thrust.
[57:17.380 --> 57:18.260]  Question time.
[57:18.460 --> 57:19.540]  Mike came first.
[58:12.050 --> 58:13.430]  I just want to know.
[58:13.550 --> 58:14.430]  Who's in control?
[58:14.690 --> 58:15.770]  Is it you or God?
[58:15.850 --> 58:16.970]  Or the bloke down the door?
[58:17.150 --> 58:18.370]  Her answers were shite.
[58:18.430 --> 58:19.390]  But I did me give up.
[58:19.530 --> 58:20.610]  So I went to the lord.
[58:20.770 --> 58:21.870]  But they did me wake up.
[58:22.010 --> 58:23.130]  So I went to the palace.
[58:23.210 --> 58:24.350]  That good queen best.
[58:24.510 --> 58:25.530]  She asked me to dance.
[58:25.630 --> 58:26.710]  Said she'd like a rest.
[58:26.850 --> 58:27.830]  5D, you'll be king.
[58:27.950 --> 58:29.090]  I'll have to get the throne.
[58:29.190 --> 58:30.470]  Here's the keys to the castle.
[58:30.650 --> 58:31.590]  You're in control.
[58:37.190 --> 58:38.190]  What about Charles?
[58:38.810 --> 58:39.910]  I like Charles.
[58:50.940 --> 58:51.380]  What?
[58:51.900 --> 58:53.240]  I've got to feed them.
[59:02.340 --> 59:03.400]  I'm talking a bit.
[59:03.560 --> 59:04.220]  Do I get to go?
[59:11.820 --> 59:13.240]  I lost a lot of money.
[59:13.620 --> 59:14.240]  I lost a lot of money.
[59:15.040 --> 59:16.340]  I lost a lot
[59:19.920 --> 59:21.200]  of money.
[59:21.200 --> 59:22.160]  Have you ever met Arbor?
[59:22.900 --> 59:24.200]  I've locked in the Arbor.
[59:25.800 --> 59:27.780]  I used to be one of my few of them students.
[01:00:37.860 --> 01:00:38.300]  Deathstrike!