[00:00.000 --> 00:01.760]  ...at 7 p.m.
[00:02.160 --> 00:08.620]  during WBAI's February Fun Drive, OutFM will host a special on the life and work of Lorraine Hansberry.
[00:08.960 --> 00:18.440]  Included in the presentation will be selections from Robert Nimeroff's star-studded 1967 production, Lorraine Hansberry, In Her Own Words.
[00:18.760 --> 00:24.860]  Participating artists in this program are Betty Davis, Ruby Dee, Gloria Foster...
[00:24.860 --> 00:27.260]  ...which includes selections from many of her plays.
[00:33.270 --> 00:36.770]  And the time is just about 7.02.
[00:36.890 --> 00:47.490]  You are listening to WBAI New York 99.5 FM, and it's time for another exciting edition, a special edition, a two-hour edition of Off the Hook.
[02:02.400 --> 02:04.620]  And a very good evening to all of you.
[02:05.200 --> 02:08.140]  The program is Off the Hook.
[02:12.990 --> 02:13.630]  Rob T.
[02:13.730 --> 02:15.130]  Firefly here with you this evening.
[02:16.570 --> 02:18.490]  And I'm joined in the studio by Mike.
[02:18.770 --> 02:19.210]  Right there.
[02:20.530 --> 02:23.150]  And on the telephone, by Bernie S.
[02:24.290 --> 02:25.770]  Greetings from Philadelphia, Rob.
[02:25.910 --> 02:29.630]  I can barely hear you and Mike, so if you can turn up what I hear, that would be great.
[02:30.490 --> 02:31.450]  I'll do what I can.
[02:31.930 --> 02:32.310]  Thank you.
[02:33.290 --> 02:34.130]  Such excitement.
[02:34.350 --> 02:35.530]  So many knobs to turn.
[02:35.750 --> 02:36.970]  So many knobs, so many buttons.
[02:38.630 --> 02:40.230]  This is a special episode tonight.
[02:40.730 --> 02:42.490]  Emmanuel and Kyle are away on assignment.
[02:42.830 --> 02:47.170]  And in lieu of their presence, we're just going to offer you more of ourselves.
[02:47.750 --> 02:51.310]  I think this will work out well for all concerned.
[02:53.190 --> 02:57.670]  It's going to work out especially well, I hope, for our audience who get to hear us for two hours tonight.
[02:58.150 --> 03:00.830]  We should let them know in advance that this is...
[03:00.830 --> 03:02.390]  We'll be doing some fundraising.
[03:02.790 --> 03:10.630]  If you want to get the jump on that and pledge right now, 212-209-2950, or give2wbai.org.
[03:10.730 --> 03:11.930]  That's the numeral 2.
[03:12.450 --> 03:20.590]  And you can show your support for us, for this radio station, and reduce the amount of times we have to ask you for money in the future.
[03:21.090 --> 03:25.510]  But we're with you for two hours tonight, and I think it's good because we have a lot to cover.
[03:25.570 --> 03:27.170]  A lot has happened since we were last on the air.
[03:27.330 --> 03:28.130]  A whole lot has happened.
[03:28.190 --> 03:28.970]  It's been two weeks.
[03:28.970 --> 03:28.970]  Thanks.
[03:30.570 --> 03:33.230]  We have an exciting piece of news to start off with.
[03:33.350 --> 03:34.570]  We'll start with some good news.
[03:35.350 --> 03:36.630]  We've announced our...
[03:36.630 --> 03:36.690]  Wait.
[03:37.090 --> 03:39.930]  Does Emmanuel know we're going to do good news in his absence?
[03:40.310 --> 03:41.850]  Yeah, I'm thinking of shaking things up.
[03:42.010 --> 03:44.410]  You know, he might fire me when he gets back, but...
[03:44.410 --> 03:45.350]  All right, all right.
[03:45.410 --> 03:45.950]  I'll deal with that.
[03:46.050 --> 03:46.910]  I'll deal with that as it comes.
[03:47.490 --> 03:54.250]  Now, we have a bit of good news regarding our HOPE convention, Hackers on Planet Earth, which is happening this July.
[03:54.950 --> 03:56.530]  New York City's own hacker conference.
[03:56.530 --> 03:58.550]  And we have announced our first keynote.
[03:59.370 --> 04:00.710]  Who is our first keynote?
[04:01.190 --> 04:02.450]  Bernie S., who is our first keynote?
[04:03.570 --> 04:17.610]  Corey Doctorow, esteemed science fiction author, whose work I enjoy, will be one of presumably three keynotes at the 11th HOPE this July 22nd, 23rd, and 24th.
[04:17.610 --> 04:18.290]  I'm very excited.
[04:18.930 --> 04:23.550]  For people who are not familiar with his work, what's so good about it?
[04:25.070 --> 04:26.290]  Well, it's funny.
[04:26.410 --> 04:28.370]  First of all, Corey has a sense of humor.
[04:28.470 --> 04:31.190]  I was hoping for a little more specificity there, Bernie.
[04:32.630 --> 04:34.290]  It pertains to...
[04:34.290 --> 04:40.710]  It has some technological wisdom to it.
[04:40.790 --> 04:45.030]  I don't want to look at wisdom, but a lot of the stuff he writes about is stuff that is plausible.
[04:45.030 --> 04:56.030]  And for a science fiction author to write what he writes, he'd have to understand current technologies pertaining to the Internet and a lot of other things that we talk about on this show.
[04:56.030 --> 05:00.150]  So it's really apropos that he would speak at the 11th HOPE.
[05:00.210 --> 05:05.730]  Because I think there's a lot of overlap between the hacker community and the science fiction fan community.
[05:05.730 --> 05:06.210]  Right.
[05:06.390 --> 05:10.130]  And Corey Doctorow's work especially applies to the hacker community.
[05:10.290 --> 05:11.770]  He comes from that sort of place himself.
[05:12.290 --> 05:21.090]  He's... if people know his work, his journalistic work at the site Boing Boing, which is the extension of an old cyberpunk zine from back in the day.
[05:22.150 --> 05:27.050]  And also just his work tends to involve a lot of the hacker outlook, the hacker spirit.
[05:27.670 --> 05:32.090]  And he actually joined us on this show quite a while back, November of 2009.
[05:32.790 --> 05:49.290]  We interviewed him about what was then his new book, Makers, which dealt with a lot of sort of hacker community issues and was a not-too-distant future based on what was going on in the maker scene and the 3D printing scene and in sort of the intellectual property scene.
[05:50.050 --> 05:51.470]  I liked the book a lot.
[05:52.490 --> 05:57.330]  And yeah, so he actually even wrote an article for 2600 Magazine back in the day.
[05:57.990 --> 06:00.630]  Under a pseudonym, as many of us have done.
[06:00.630 --> 06:02.470]  Yeah, under a pseudonym, and so...
[06:02.470 --> 06:04.430]  Can we out him and say which article it was?
[06:04.570 --> 06:11.970]  I don't think we have that information handy, but we can just claim it was whichever one you liked that you read back in the day, it might have been him.
[06:13.970 --> 06:16.110]  But yeah, so we're excited about that.
[06:16.410 --> 06:20.750]  The first of our three keynote speakers at the upcoming 11th Hope.
[06:21.010 --> 06:25.870]  Can we say this is a keynote speech that has been literally decades in the making?
[06:26.150 --> 06:26.850]  It has.
[06:27.430 --> 06:33.350]  We've been trying to get Cory Doctorow to speak at the Hope Conference for many, many conferences.
[06:33.670 --> 06:34.770]  And there's always...
[06:34.770 --> 06:39.910]  He's wanted to come, but there's been scheduling conflicts and this, that, and the other.
[06:40.070 --> 06:42.470]  So I'm glad that was finally able to be resolved.
[06:42.470 --> 06:44.590]  And he will be speaking this July.
[06:44.790 --> 06:44.970]  Right.
[06:45.070 --> 06:46.410]  He's a tricky fellow to pin down.
[06:46.570 --> 06:49.330]  Actually, when we interviewed him for the show, he was living in the UK.
[06:49.790 --> 06:56.350]  And the way the times lined up, I ended up staying up really late one night so I could call him when it was convenient for him and we pre-recorded the interview.
[06:57.490 --> 07:01.910]  But he was very accommodating and, you know, good guy to speak with.
[07:02.070 --> 07:09.010]  If you're interested, you can still, if you go back to November 2009 on the Off the Hook archives on 2600.com, you can listen to that interview.
[07:10.030 --> 07:16.850]  Or you could also check out the things he's into on the sites Boing Boing as well as his personal site, which is CrapHound.com.
[07:18.190 --> 07:19.370]  Lots of interesting stuff there.
[07:19.530 --> 07:22.470]  He writes... he actually writes free books.
[07:23.010 --> 07:27.350]  He's very... he's a proponent of free culture, open culture, as I am.
[07:27.510 --> 07:29.230]  And I really dig his work for that.
[07:29.330 --> 07:37.450]  So, yeah, he writes these great books, these chart-making books, and then he releases them for free reading for the public.
[07:38.270 --> 07:39.950]  You can also buy them, if that's your thing.
[07:39.970 --> 07:40.910]  You can also buy them, yes.
[07:41.430 --> 07:45.230]  And there have been all sorts of adaptations made and remixes of his work and really cool stuff.
[07:45.510 --> 07:51.630]  So, yeah, Cory Doctorow is the first of our keynote speakers at the 11th Hope.
[07:54.350 --> 07:57.810]  So, what if I want to get, like, a taste of what Hope will be like?
[07:57.970 --> 07:59.150]  Is there a way to do that, Rob?
[07:59.370 --> 08:01.030]  A taste of what Hope will be like?
[08:01.250 --> 08:09.790]  Well, I can suggest that you get hold of maybe some Hope archives on possibly DVDs or thumb drives.
[08:09.790 --> 08:15.290]  So, this is not a recording of the conference to come, because we don't have a time machine.
[08:15.630 --> 08:16.270]  Indeed, it's not.
[08:16.270 --> 08:17.490]  So, Cory Doctorow will not be in it.
[08:17.650 --> 08:18.690]  Cory Doctorow will not.
[08:18.830 --> 08:23.630]  But others like him, and others you may be interested in hearing from, will be.
[08:25.050 --> 08:27.850]  How do I get this wonderful package?
[08:28.130 --> 08:32.690]  Well, you can get these wonderful packages if you go to give2wbai.org.
[08:34.030 --> 08:37.490]  And the pledge levels are not in front of me, because I've just lost my connection.
[08:37.830 --> 08:47.490]  So, I believe if you pledge $50, you will get a package of DVDs of the Hope X, which is the conference from, I guess, a year and a half ago at this point.
[08:48.510 --> 08:58.030]  If you pledge $75, you'll get every single talk from that conference on a thumb drive that you can plug into your computer, you can watch anywhere you want.
[08:58.710 --> 09:06.090]  And 212-209-2950, if you're a fan of telephones, give2wbai.org.
[09:06.090 --> 09:10.970]  If you're a fan of websites, you can try both at the same time and see which one's faster.
[09:11.830 --> 09:17.090]  But do it today, and we'll be able to send you these premiums as a thank you gift.
[09:17.250 --> 09:19.930]  In the case of the thumb drive, you literally cannot get anywhere else.
[09:19.930 --> 09:24.730]  In the case of the DVDs, if you tried to get it anywhere else, it would cost you far more than $50.
[09:25.170 --> 09:38.490]  But what we're happy to do for you is to donate these to the station as a thank you for your supporting us, for keeping this radio program on the air, for keeping this radio station on the air.
[09:38.490 --> 09:41.970]  For all these years, we literally have no other source of revenue.
[09:42.210 --> 09:44.710]  And to be clear, none of us will see a dime of this money.
[09:44.910 --> 09:52.530]  But the station needs your money to make sure the studio continues to exist, make sure our transmitter continues to exist.
[09:53.530 --> 09:55.050]  And we can't do it without your support.
[09:55.190 --> 10:04.710]  We don't want to go down the road that so many other shows do and be telling you things you should buy, services you should use in exchange for money.
[10:04.770 --> 10:07.470]  We want to be able to maintain our editorial independence.
[10:07.470 --> 10:12.550]  And the only way we can do that is to remain solely accountable to you, our audience.
[10:12.930 --> 10:19.050]  And so if you like this show, vote with your dollars if you can afford it.
[10:19.290 --> 10:21.270]  212-209-2950.
[10:21.550 --> 10:23.570]  Give to WBAI.org.
[10:24.170 --> 10:25.870]  That was really well said, Mike.
[10:26.750 --> 10:28.210]  I couldn't have said it better.
[10:28.450 --> 10:29.210]  Why don't you try?
[10:29.530 --> 10:31.130]  I want to add to what you said.
[10:31.310 --> 10:54.090]  And that is that anyone who supports this station tonight or anytime by calling 212-209-2950 can not only be satisfied that you're keeping this radio station in this radio show on the air and get an amazing thank you gift that is worth far more than what you're pledging financially.
[10:54.350 --> 10:58.030]  But you will have a say in what happens at WBAI.
[10:58.150 --> 11:04.090]  You will become a voting member of this community-supported station.
[11:04.090 --> 11:06.110]  You'll be part of the network.
[11:06.130 --> 11:11.450]  You will be able to express your wishes as to, I like this show.
[11:11.450 --> 11:12.230]  I don't like this show.
[11:12.230 --> 11:13.330]  I wish you would do more of this.
[11:13.410 --> 11:14.610]  I wish you'd do less of this.
[11:15.150 --> 11:22.670]  All of that, you will be part of the community of WBAI, which is an amazing community and is, frankly, priceless.
[11:23.990 --> 11:24.750]  Indeed it is.
[11:24.930 --> 11:28.930]  And we won't go about this for the entire show.
[11:28.970 --> 11:30.150]  We have some news to talk about as well.
[11:30.250 --> 11:35.430]  But we do want to remind our listeners that, as Mike said, this is the only thing that keeps us on the air.
[11:35.950 --> 11:37.950]  We don't accept paid advertising.
[11:38.570 --> 11:45.570]  We're not funded by any vested interests that tell us what we can and can't do.
[11:45.730 --> 11:46.990]  We don't take government money.
[11:47.150 --> 11:49.050]  We don't get large foundation grants.
[11:49.430 --> 11:54.210]  You, our audience, are the source of support, the only source of support.
[11:54.330 --> 11:57.230]  And so if you want us to continue, give us a call.
[11:57.730 --> 11:58.370]  Yes, indeed.
[11:58.610 --> 12:01.590]  And I do now have those pledge levels in front of me.
[12:01.970 --> 12:10.710]  And yes, for a pledge of $50, you can get the Hope Archives DVD collection, a package of some of the best keynote talks and some other talks from the Hope Conference.
[12:11.050 --> 12:30.090]  And if you would like to pledge a little more, $75, you will get a thumb drive containing the keynotes and other selected talks from the Hope Conferences in perfectly DRM-free, watchable digital files that you can then transfer to whatever devices and things that you want to.
[12:31.310 --> 12:32.330]  So very cool stuff.
[12:32.330 --> 12:38.250]  We also have a bit of artwork by somebody whose work I enjoy very much.
[12:38.330 --> 12:38.850]  Okay, it's me.
[12:40.390 --> 12:42.230]  We have some paintings.
[12:42.570 --> 12:50.330]  A while back, I offered some paintings to our supporters for $50 each, a 5x7 painting on acrylic.
[12:50.650 --> 12:59.730]  I did a set of luminaries of the hacker world, which were portraits of all sorts of fascinating people from history who espoused the hacker spirit in some way.
[13:00.290 --> 13:06.110]  I did a set of, what did I do, 14 of these.
[13:06.430 --> 13:07.810]  And there is one left.
[13:08.110 --> 13:09.170]  There is a single one left.
[13:09.470 --> 13:16.450]  So if you would like to snap up that last one, go to give2wbai.org or call 212-209-2950.
[13:16.770 --> 13:18.930]  So that's a thing you should do right now.
[13:19.230 --> 13:19.510]  Yes.
[13:19.630 --> 13:20.090]  Right, okay.
[13:20.270 --> 13:24.590]  And for a pledge of $50 and ask for the luminaries of the hacker world painting, the very last one we have.
[13:25.190 --> 13:30.310]  There's also another set of paintings that I'm currently doing, which are historical and interesting telephones.
[13:30.490 --> 13:36.130]  Again, 5x7 on stretched canvases, which you can also get for a pledge of $50.
[13:36.570 --> 13:38.310]  Ask for the historical telephones painting.
[13:39.650 --> 13:50.770]  So, yeah, I've gotten some very nice comments from listeners and supporters who have gotten hold of these and, you know, occasionally showed me pictures of where they have them displayed, which is very cool.
[13:51.030 --> 13:57.830]  Also, if you have any of this stuff that you've gotten from us, you know, please share with us how you display or use or enjoy them.
[13:57.990 --> 13:59.830]  Rob, what is a historical telephone?
[14:00.130 --> 14:04.770]  A historical telephone is just particular telephones from the history of the telephone that are interesting in some way.
[14:04.770 --> 14:06.150]  You have to use different words.
[14:06.370 --> 14:06.550]  Yeah.
[14:07.650 --> 14:14.510]  So I could use different words, but the words that you need to use if you want these on the site or on the phone are historical telephones.
[14:14.650 --> 14:15.690]  Maybe give an example.
[14:15.850 --> 14:26.930]  An example is the most recent one I did was actually a telephone prototype done by a German scientist named Philip Rice before Alexander Graham Bell's telephone, which became all the rage.
[14:27.270 --> 14:39.210]  So it's a painting of that device, which is very, very cool looking, very interesting looking, and a kind of little known footnote in the history of telecommunications.
[14:40.330 --> 14:42.990]  And yeah, I'm pretty happy with how that one turned out.
[14:43.130 --> 14:44.690]  I'm working on a couple others.
[14:44.890 --> 14:48.190]  Just there's an interesting phone booth I'm working on.
[14:48.190 --> 14:59.670]  There is the Western Electric 500, which is a very classic model of telephone, which if you were alive at a certain point during history, you would know this as sort of a basic telephone that you saw everywhere.
[15:00.570 --> 15:04.190]  Nowadays, you don't see very many of them, unless you hang around with the people I do.
[15:06.010 --> 15:08.290]  But yeah, particularly interesting phones.
[15:08.430 --> 15:10.670]  I'm working on one of...
[15:10.670 --> 15:18.170]  This may be stretching the definition of a bit, but the blue box that Steve Jobs and Wozniak made in the 60s.
[15:18.170 --> 15:20.850]  One of those is in a museum, and I'm painting that.
[15:21.670 --> 15:43.730]  So yeah, if you call 212-209-2950, pledge $50 for a historical telephone painting or the very last Hacker Luminary painting or the Hope Archive DVD, either of those you can get for $50, or for a pledge of $75, you can get the Hope Archive on a thumb drive.
[15:44.730 --> 15:47.130]  Or for just any pledge above 25...
[15:47.130 --> 15:53.510]  Well, for $25 and up, you can get not these premiums, but you will get membership in the station and saying what goes on here.
[15:53.730 --> 15:59.890]  And you can go online at any time or call up at any time and ask which other premiums the station has.
[16:00.030 --> 16:04.950]  Just make sure you specify that you're donating toward your favorite show, which we hope is off the hook.
[16:05.390 --> 16:06.390]  It's certainly my favorite.
[16:07.070 --> 16:08.110]  And go from there.
[16:08.250 --> 16:09.370]  And thank you very much for your support.
[16:09.750 --> 16:10.730]  Hey, Rob.
[16:10.890 --> 16:21.890]  I enjoyed a listener email we got recently who the gentleman apologized for stealing one of your paintings.
[16:23.690 --> 16:37.590]  He said he only had to pledge $50 to support WBAI, and he got this amazing portrait of a luminary from the hacker world that was 5x7 and stretched canvas.
[16:37.590 --> 16:37.970]  It was beautiful.
[16:38.290 --> 16:40.290]  I've seen these on your website.
[16:40.530 --> 16:42.490]  They're really extremely well done.
[16:42.990 --> 16:47.990]  Isn't there a little tag on the bottom explaining who it is and why they're a luminary?
[16:47.990 --> 17:00.190]  Every one of these paintings, the luminaries and also the telephones will get a little placard that goes with it that tells you what it is that is being portrayed and what significance it has to hacker history.
[17:00.630 --> 17:03.350]  And yeah, I was very happy to get that email.
[17:03.530 --> 17:11.670]  There's actually a particular listener who's pledged for multiple ones of these and I think is building up a collection, which I'm incredibly flattered by.
[17:12.530 --> 17:24.990]  I mean, if you agree, audience, with that listener who feels that $50 is not enough for one of Rob's paintings, and quite frankly, I agree, you're certainly welcome to pledge more.
[17:25.290 --> 17:30.790]  If you're not in a situation to be able to do that, your pledge of $50 will get you an original painting.
[17:30.950 --> 17:33.290]  You can't do that.
[17:33.410 --> 17:43.190]  I know someone who, as a commercial enterprise, was commissioning paintings done at minimum wage in China and the retail cost is more than $50.
[17:45.870 --> 17:49.790]  And they were not nearly as good as Rob's work or as interesting.
[17:50.870 --> 18:01.490]  So to be able to pledge $50 and not only keep us on the air, but also get an original artwork in exchange is just an amazing offer.
[18:02.050 --> 18:03.550]  I think they're going to go fast.
[18:03.650 --> 18:06.690]  You should give us a call, 212-209-2950.
[18:07.270 --> 18:11.450]  Go to give2wbai.org and claim your painting.
[18:12.070 --> 18:17.610]  Yeah, I, you know, to toot my own horn, I am a professional artist, and I do do commissioned work.
[18:17.750 --> 18:26.570]  And for the work that you're getting in these paintings, I should point out that, yeah, $50 is significantly less than I would actually charge in real life.
[18:27.150 --> 18:29.630]  And when you do that, it doesn't come with a radio station.
[18:29.790 --> 18:30.530]  It certainly doesn't.
[18:30.530 --> 18:44.410]  And I've donated these to the radio station so we can offer them to you at this reduced price to support, because I think it's important to support this show and this station and these listeners who have all given me a really good home over the years I've been involved.
[18:44.690 --> 18:48.670]  And, you know, it's, I like being able to give back a little.
[18:48.810 --> 18:57.010]  So call 212-209-2950 or go to give2wbai.org and show your support.
[18:58.190 --> 19:03.510]  So, yeah, a lot has gone on in the world for the past couple of weeks while we've been off the air.
[19:03.930 --> 19:05.450]  We have some extra time to talk about it.
[19:05.510 --> 19:06.510]  We'll be on for two hours tonight.
[19:06.930 --> 19:13.650]  So to start with, this Apple story that we've been hearing about...
[19:13.650 --> 19:15.610]  We could easily spend two hours on this story.
[19:15.610 --> 19:16.670]  It's so important.
[19:17.230 --> 19:17.790]  We could.
[19:18.110 --> 19:31.250]  So apparently, according to a federal judge who ruled on this yesterday, Apple must help the FBI break into an iPhone because it happens to have belonged to one of the killers in the recent shootings in San Bernardino.
[19:33.130 --> 19:33.710]  Let's see.
[19:33.870 --> 19:34.930]  The ruling from U.S.
[19:35.050 --> 19:35.430]  Magistrate...
[19:35.430 --> 19:36.270]  This is from USA Today.
[19:36.410 --> 19:37.030]  The ruling from U.S.
[19:37.130 --> 19:47.410]  Magistrate Sherry Pym requires Apple to provide quote, reasonable technical assistance to the FBI, namely software that can disable the security feature that erases data from the iPhone after too many unsuccessful attempts to unlock it.
[19:48.930 --> 19:54.890]  Federal prosecutors told the court they could not access the phone used by Farouk, the shooter, because they don't know his passcode.
[19:55.050 --> 20:00.650]  With the security feature disabled, they could attempt as many combinations as they like to unlock the iPhone.
[20:01.050 --> 20:03.790]  Now, there are things about this that are particularly dangerous.
[20:03.810 --> 20:04.970]  What do you think, Bernie?
[20:05.850 --> 20:14.510]  Well, the shooter you just mentioned and his wife were both allegedly involved with this incident.
[20:14.790 --> 20:15.550]  They're both dead.
[20:15.890 --> 20:36.890]  So I don't know who the FBI hopes to prosecute from this, but that aside, what the FBI is trying to compel Apple to do by using its influence with the courts is to create a piece of software that would allow the FBI to basically hack into not just this iPhone,
[20:37.030 --> 20:40.490]  which is what the Department of Justice or FBI has been falsely claiming.
[20:40.490 --> 20:41.750]  This is just for this one phone.
[20:41.910 --> 20:42.450]  Well, no.
[20:42.650 --> 20:50.230]  They could use the same piece of software to hack into a lot of iPhones, presumably without even getting a warrant.
[20:50.230 --> 20:58.270]  It wouldn't be legal, but it wouldn't be hardly the first time the FBI has violated the law to hack into a computer without a warrant.
[20:58.470 --> 21:00.090]  This reminds me a lot of...
[21:00.090 --> 21:09.550]  Do you remember back in the early 90s there was a big FBI initiative for something called the Communications Act for Law Enforcement Assistance?
[21:09.950 --> 21:14.610]  Do you remember this is the CALEA Act?
[21:14.970 --> 21:15.350]  That was a...
[21:15.350 --> 21:16.330]  I'm sure Mike remembers it.
[21:16.590 --> 21:26.730]  That was the FBI's first, I think, shot across the bow of telecommunications privacy on a grand scale.
[21:27.050 --> 21:43.130]  And the CALEA bill, which actually was passed into law in late 94, required all telephone companies to provide access to the FBI and other law enforcement agencies so they could just go in at will and wiretap phone calls.
[21:43.150 --> 21:58.830]  This reminds me, this new initiative by the FBI that we're learning about just yesterday and today reminds me a lot of CALEA because it's sort of like the first step of the slippery slope to the FBI having another tool that they can just bypass our privacy,
[21:59.150 --> 22:00.750]  frankly, whether or not they have a warrant.
[22:00.890 --> 22:05.950]  They're going to do what they want, but they can't do what they want right now without this piece of software they're trying to get Apple to write for them.
[22:06.230 --> 22:08.430]  So I'm really very much against this.
[22:09.030 --> 22:09.970]  That's an important point.
[22:10.050 --> 22:11.730]  The software they want does not yet exist.
[22:11.730 --> 22:15.310]  They want Apple to create the software for them.
[22:16.150 --> 22:18.610]  Which is almost the nuttiest part of the whole thing.
[22:18.710 --> 22:33.230]  They want to compel Apple, some engineers at Apple, to work against the other Apple engineers who are trying to prevent people from being able to break into iPhones they don't own.
[22:33.870 --> 22:39.390]  It would really be quite an interesting dynamic at the company if this sort of thing were to happen.
[22:39.390 --> 23:02.090]  We should be clear, Bernie, that the specific order here claims that the FBI wrote this order obviously and then the judge struck the word proposed off of it and signed it which is a fairly standard practice although one would hope they'd give a little more thought for such groundbreaking orders as this one.
[23:03.570 --> 23:08.270]  The order does request a specific piece of software that can only break into this iPhone.
[23:09.070 --> 23:14.210]  Those of us who are more technically minded doubt that such a thing could ever really exist.
[23:16.770 --> 23:19.710]  That you can have a software that can only break into one iPhone.
[23:19.910 --> 23:29.230]  It's clear that you know they've this is something that the FBI has wanted for a long time and it's clear that they've gone for the case where they think they can get it.
[23:29.330 --> 23:34.670]  They've got a mass murderer who is Muslim so they're calling him a terrorist.
[23:34.670 --> 23:36.850]  I don't really know any other definition of terrorist.
[23:38.530 --> 23:41.050]  And they're saying we need to get into this guy's iPhone.
[23:41.550 --> 23:43.310]  He's dead so he can't let us in.
[23:43.830 --> 23:44.750]  We need in.
[23:45.090 --> 23:51.150]  And so this is as compelling a case as the government's ever going to have although in my view still not terribly compelling.
[23:51.710 --> 23:57.510]  And they are demanding that Apple produce this software that will let them into it.
[23:57.590 --> 24:02.690]  But the thing is they're going to if they get their way this time they're going to get their way again.
[24:02.870 --> 24:04.250]  They're going for precedent here.
[24:04.250 --> 24:11.310]  I don't even know to what degree they care about this particular phone because as you said the suspect is already dead.
[24:11.490 --> 24:12.550]  They can't really prosecute him.
[24:14.430 --> 24:14.870]  Yeah.
[24:15.210 --> 24:26.410]  And it is obvious that there is no such thing as a thing that will just work on the one phone because you can't make cookies that you can only bake in one brand of oven.
[24:26.550 --> 24:29.930]  You can't make software that will only work on one example of it.
[24:29.930 --> 24:36.810]  And even if they could, it would just be precedent for them to do the same thing over again the next time somebody wants to look at a phone that's not theirs.
[24:37.050 --> 24:41.570]  So it's really the implications of this are troubling.
[24:41.870 --> 24:59.610]  And this ruling has brought in responses from every corner of the internet including Tim Cook himself, the CEO of Apple, who writes on apple.com slash customer dash letter, a long open letter response to Is this the first time Apple has ever written a letter to their customers?
[24:59.610 --> 25:02.470]  Apparently, because the URL was available on apple.com.
[25:04.670 --> 25:15.230]  Reading an excerpt from this letter by Tim Cook, specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system, circumventing several important security features and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation.
[25:15.450 --> 25:21.050]  In the wrong hands, this software, which does not exist today, would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone's physical possession.
[25:21.670 --> 25:29.450]  The FBI may use different words to describe this tool, but make no mistake, building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a back door.
[25:29.730 --> 25:34.190]  And while the government may argue that its use would be limited to this case, there is no way to guarantee such control.
[25:35.270 --> 25:44.070]  Some would argue that building a backdoor for just one iPhone is a simple, clean-cut solution, but it ignores both the basics of digital security and the significance of what the government is demanding in this case.
[25:45.610 --> 25:49.250]  Skipping forward a bit, the government is asking Apple to hack our own users and undermine...
[25:49.250 --> 25:50.330]  Wait, they use the word hack.
[25:50.730 --> 25:58.350]  The government is asking Apple to hack our own users and undermine decades of security advancements that protect our customers, including tens of millions of
[26:09.270 --> 26:17.110]  So the government is asking Apple to hack their own users and undermine the advancements that protect them from sophisticated hackers.
[26:17.750 --> 26:20.130]  And I'm enjoying this letter less now.
[26:20.250 --> 26:28.150]  But the same engineers who built strong encryption into the iPhone to protect our users would, ironically, be ordered to weaken those protections and make our users less safe.
[26:29.010 --> 26:33.970]  We can find no precedent for an American company being forced to expose its customers to a greater risk of attack.
[26:34.190 --> 26:38.390]  For years, cryptologists and national security experts have been warning against weakening encryption.
[26:38.710 --> 26:43.750]  Doing so would only hurt the well-meaning and law-abiding citizens who rely on companies like Apple to protect their data.
[26:44.150 --> 26:47.790]  Criminals and bad actors will still encrypt using tools that are readily available to them.
[26:48.950 --> 26:50.710]  So, yeah, it goes on like that a bit.
[26:50.850 --> 26:56.070]  But, yeah, Apple's boss himself doesn't think this is such a good idea.
[26:56.070 --> 27:08.010]  Hey, Rob, did Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, did he forget that Apple's two co-founders, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, were both hackers and phone freaks and proud of it?
[27:08.190 --> 27:12.930]  And had they not been, they would not have been able to even start Apple Corporation?
[27:12.930 --> 27:15.890]  I mean, I think there's a certain irony here.
[27:16.010 --> 27:17.510]  It is the company that blue box is.
[27:17.510 --> 27:19.330]  Is this really what we're going to focus on, guys?
[27:20.150 --> 27:21.630]  So, well, here's the thing.
[27:22.130 --> 27:36.110]  This issue with this FBI trying to compel Apple to write this piece of software to hack into iPhones, it has now become a campaign issue in presidential politics.
[27:36.630 --> 27:49.830]  The leading Republican, I won't even mention his name, everybody knows who he is, the leading Republican candidate for the President of the United States, is saying, who do they think they are about Apple?
[27:49.990 --> 27:51.770]  They should just open it up, he says.
[27:53.530 --> 27:59.450]  And this candidate says, I think overall, security overall, we have to open it up, and we have to use our heads.
[27:59.550 --> 28:00.530]  We have to use common sense.
[28:00.730 --> 28:21.950]  Well, frankly, this so-called self-described common sense conservative, who's leading the Republican Party to down the tubes, is common sense, I don't think, is part of his M.O., although I think he is a pretty brilliant guy when it comes to knowing what people will go along with,
[28:22.110 --> 28:25.890]  and I think a lot of, what scares me is I think a lot of people are going to go along with this.
[28:26.450 --> 28:32.370]  Bernie, I don't know if you saw any statements from anyone else taking the opposite position, though.
[28:32.490 --> 28:40.550]  I mean, plenty of people in the industry and in the general public are, of course, opposed to this radical move by the government.
[28:40.550 --> 28:50.570]  I did see a statement from Ron Wyden, who is the senator who we've talked about before, who's probably the best on a lot of these privacy issues, opposing the government's move here.
[28:50.670 --> 28:54.930]  But I don't think there's a presidential candidate I can vote for that shares my view.
[28:56.910 --> 28:57.830]  On this issue?
[28:58.050 --> 28:58.170]  Yeah.
[28:58.530 --> 29:00.250]  Yeah, I would agree with you.
[29:00.330 --> 29:10.010]  Although I haven't heard, I have heard, I have not read any other, any verbiage from any other presidential candidate this season who's chimed in on this.
[29:10.110 --> 29:13.970]  Oh, but I bet they all will be asked to chime in on it by the press, I hope.
[29:14.230 --> 29:22.730]  Because I'd like to know where these people who want to be the President of the United States stand on these really important personal privacy issues.
[29:25.010 --> 29:28.610]  I mean, they're going to try and weasel their way out of saying anything.
[29:29.010 --> 29:37.070]  I just want to read a bit of Ron Wyden's statement because he deserves the credit for trying to put a stop to this kind of thing.
[29:37.150 --> 29:50.530]  He says that the unprecedented reading of a nearly 230-year-old law, which is the law they found that they claim allows them to do this, would create a dangerous precedent that would put at risk the foundations of strong security for our people and privacy in the digital age.
[29:50.730 --> 30:00.730]  If upheld, this decision could force US technology companies to actually build hacking tools for government against their will, while weakening cybersecurity for millions of Americans in the process.
[30:01.150 --> 30:08.230]  And then he raises the point that I think is also key, which is that furthermore, this move by the FBI could snowball around the world.
[30:08.530 --> 30:15.850]  Why in the world would our government want to give repressive regimes in Russia and China a blueprint for forcing American companies to create a backdoor?
[30:16.790 --> 30:23.110]  Companies should comply with warrants to the extent that they are able to do so, but no company should be forced to deliberately weaken its products.
[30:23.430 --> 30:47.210]  In the long run, the real losers will be Americans' online safety and security." I could do with a little less jingoism with that statement, but I think it raises a key point, which is that if the US government gets its way on this, other governments are going to be demanding this kind of backdoor or stronger backdoors to be able to monitor all communications without individualized warrants.
[30:47.390 --> 30:55.490]  And Apple's would have no leg to stand on if they complied with US government orders, but not orders from other governments.
[30:55.730 --> 31:02.750]  So it's really a thing that needs to be stopped now before it goes any further, in my view.
[31:03.210 --> 31:18.110]  Mike, do you think if, uh, if Apple complied with this order or was forced to, if they're, if they're, they have like, what, a week to, uh, to, uh, respond to the government, uh, to the court's request and say, this is an, uh, a burden that we really can't,
[31:18.190 --> 31:20.370]  it's an undue burden or something.
[31:20.590 --> 31:35.470]  Do you think that Apple, if, if, uh, they, if they have to do this, if they're compelled to by the court and they write this piece of software, um, that other major markets like, uh, China, where Apple presumably makes billions of dollars selling iPhones,
[31:35.790 --> 31:44.490]  uh, if that country said, uh, hey, Apple, we want you to do this for us here in this country so we can, uh, hack into our own, uh, citizens, uh, iPhones.
[31:44.850 --> 31:47.050]  Do you think Apple would just say, oh, no, we're not going to do that.
[31:47.130 --> 31:49.290]  We don't want to, we don't need your billions of dollars anymore.
[31:49.510 --> 31:50.510]  What do you think would happen there?
[31:51.050 --> 31:53.070]  I'm sure they would, you know, try and fight it.
[31:53.170 --> 31:55.370]  They're given five days to combat the order.
[31:55.630 --> 31:59.610]  Uh, but I'm sure the process, the legal process will go on for a long, longer than five days.
[31:59.850 --> 32:03.010]  They just get five days to file their, you know, initial objections.
[32:03.750 --> 32:08.690]  Um, the, the, the thing about this case is they're prosecuting someone who's already dead.
[32:08.850 --> 32:13.910]  So there's no real hurry for anyone, uh, which is nice because it gives, gives time for the arguments to be thought out.
[32:14.310 --> 32:16.630]  But, uh, no, of course not.
[32:16.750 --> 32:21.750]  You know, the Chinese government is going to want whatever the U S government gets and like, why shouldn't they have it?
[32:21.850 --> 32:23.750]  There's no real good reason.
[32:23.750 --> 32:27.430]  Uh, Apple does a lot of retail sales in China.
[32:27.590 --> 32:29.430]  They do all of their manufacturing in China.
[32:29.810 --> 32:36.110]  Uh, they, they really would have no leg to stand on to deny the Chinese government, what they've given the U S government.
[32:36.530 --> 32:47.690]  And we know, uh, from previous cases that the Chinese government is very cautious to ask for, you know, just like whatever other governments get the systems, they build themselves.
[32:47.690 --> 32:58.370]  Of course they do all kinds of crazy things with, but when making demands from, uh, American or multinational corporations, they have shown, they will ask for, you know, they will use the argument.
[32:58.530 --> 33:00.050]  They are not at all afraid to use the argument.
[33:00.230 --> 33:02.630]  Hey, you gave us the U S government, we're a country too.
[33:02.710 --> 33:03.630]  Why shouldn't we have it?
[33:03.830 --> 33:05.970]  And I am sure they will do so in this case.
[33:07.130 --> 33:07.490]  Yep.
[33:08.470 --> 33:12.310]  I wish I had more to say on the topic, but it seems completely unambiguous to me.
[33:13.070 --> 33:14.170]  That, that it does.
[33:15.890 --> 33:24.010]  Well, um, I don't know if we're going to have time later, uh, in this two hour show to, to hear what our listeners say about this, but, uh, I'm really interested.
[33:24.150 --> 33:27.510]  I, I've had numerous friends ask me about this issue today.
[33:27.710 --> 33:28.630]  Did you hear about this?
[33:28.690 --> 33:29.370]  Yeah, I heard about it.
[33:29.550 --> 33:39.970]  And, and a lot of people are talking about this and I hope a lot more people talk about this because this is a really critical issue, um, pertaining to, uh, our communications privacy.
[33:40.670 --> 33:50.450]  Um, and, um, you know, it's frankly, it's going to be up to the court, but I do think that the, that the U S courts do sometimes look at public opinion.
[33:50.450 --> 33:55.190]  And if there's a sufficient outrage, sometimes the courts go, go the other way.
[33:55.870 --> 33:57.830]  Um, we'll have to see what happens here.
[33:57.930 --> 33:59.130]  I, I, I think Mike's right.
[33:59.130 --> 34:01.210]  This is going to drag on a lot longer than a week.
[34:02.150 --> 34:09.030]  Um, I mean, whatever the ruling is, uh, in response to the papers filed in five days, you know, whoever loses is going to appeal.
[34:09.170 --> 34:10.670]  We can be almost certain about that.
[34:11.150 --> 34:12.330]  And this might go all the way.
[34:12.470 --> 34:15.070]  This could go, this could very well go all the way to Supreme Court.
[34:15.390 --> 34:16.530]  We'll, we'll have to see.
[34:17.070 --> 34:23.150]  Um, and, uh, you know, what happens in the court is really important to our, uh, electronic privacy.
[34:23.870 --> 34:30.510]  Um, so, uh, we should keep a close eye on this case and, uh, we'll be talking about it in a couple of weeks when we're back on, back on the air.
[34:30.910 --> 34:44.010]  The letter from Tim Cook, uh, emphasizes again and again that, uh, apparently Apple believes that the FBI is, um, you know, means well with what they're trying to do, but, uh, just the manner in which they're doing it is, uh, is all wrong.
[34:44.590 --> 34:54.930]  And that's, uh, that's kind of an interesting, uh, attack for them to, for, for them to take because, you know, I, I personally don't assume that the FBI means well with everything it does.
[34:55.550 --> 35:07.850]  Um, I think, uh, I think sometimes they want to, they want to do things that are wrong and they want to find reasons that are, uh, um, justifiable in the eyes of, uh, whoever they're answerable to in order to allow them to do these things.
[35:07.870 --> 35:09.650]  And I think we're looking at that case right now.
[35:09.830 --> 35:12.090]  So yeah, we'll definitely be keeping an eye on this.
[35:12.150 --> 35:13.530]  The statement was signed by Tim Cook.
[35:13.690 --> 35:26.810]  I'm sure he agrees with its content, but it was almost certainly reviewed if not written by a lawyer and, uh, saying, you know, we think the FBI is a big bunch of idiots is not a, uh, really a winning publicity strategy, unfortunately.
[35:27.350 --> 35:33.350]  Someday I hope to have my own, uh, multinational mega corporation so I could use it to say, yeah, I think you guys are full of crap.
[35:34.070 --> 35:37.190]  Um, so Bernie, I wonder what you think of this.
[35:37.330 --> 35:41.470]  Do you think the FBI actually needs this software or they could get into the phone without it?
[35:42.110 --> 35:46.490]  Well, I think, and I, I emailed you guys earlier today about this.
[35:46.730 --> 36:06.650]  Um, I think the FBI has access to tools already that would allow them to clone the entire contents of the phone, encrypted as it may be, um, and make, um, and, and make as many duplicate, uh, phones, uh, with the same content in it as this one they're,
[36:06.650 --> 36:08.170]  they're trying to hack into.
[36:08.510 --> 36:11.370]  So I think there's, you know, they could do this.
[36:11.430 --> 36:12.070]  It would be a lot harder.
[36:12.250 --> 36:21.970]  I think they're just looking for a really easy solution, um, that they can apply this piece of software just to, uh, all iPhones or a lot of other iPhones to do this.
[36:22.070 --> 36:23.350]  So yeah, I think they could get around this.
[36:23.450 --> 36:25.690]  They're looking, I think they're very clever in some ways.
[36:25.750 --> 36:28.110]  They are idiots, but that same way they're, they're also very clever.
[36:28.310 --> 36:42.210]  I think, Mike, that, um, uh, they were looking, as you said, they were looking for a, a case that would have a strong emotional appeal to People like the leading Republican candidate who says, who do these guys think they are?
[36:44.850 --> 36:48.270]  So, this is... they're very good at picking test cases, the FBI.
[36:48.590 --> 37:00.630]  And I think that they could get this information other ways without getting this piece of software, but they want this piece of software written for them so they can do way more surveillance on more iFence.
[37:01.990 --> 37:06.810]  On the subject of personal privacy, sometimes you don't need to get the FBI to...
[37:08.550 --> 37:17.650]  to crack their way into people's devices in order to make use of personal information about them, because sometimes people give up that information willingly.
[37:18.090 --> 37:36.910]  A story from The Independent in the UK talks about something called Crowd Emotion, which is a face-scanning technology that the BBC has been playing with, the BBC being the British Broadcasting Corporation, which sheds light on viewers' tastes by analyzing their facial expressions as they watch content.
[37:38.890 --> 37:41.690]  How does it see the people's faces?
[37:42.010 --> 37:44.590]  It sees the people's faces with cameras pointed at the people.
[37:44.930 --> 37:47.170]  This is just in the testing phase, apparently.
[37:47.430 --> 37:47.830]  Ah, okay.
[37:48.070 --> 37:52.910]  So, these people consented to sitting in front of cameras and, I guess, watching television.
[37:54.090 --> 38:03.050]  And facial movements are recorded on a second-by-second basis, and the results are divided into six possible emotions, sadness, puzzlement, happiness, fear, rejection, and surprise.
[38:03.670 --> 38:07.670]  So, they've... the BBC has identified the only six possible human emotions.
[38:08.230 --> 38:10.410]  That's really the groundbreaking research here, Rob.
[38:10.510 --> 38:12.290]  I don't know why we're focusing on the other stuff.
[38:12.350 --> 38:12.550]  There's only six.
[38:12.750 --> 38:14.410]  Very good work by the BBC on this.
[38:14.570 --> 38:15.730]  Like, they have Doctor Who in this.
[38:15.830 --> 38:17.010]  This is, you know, it's a triumph.
[38:17.010 --> 38:22.090]  The cameras allow researchers to measure the often subconscious responses people have to visual content.
[38:23.410 --> 38:34.790]  And a pilot experiment measuring 5,000 people's conscious and subconscious emotional responses to marketing campaigns on the BBC.com website from clients, including HSBC, has proved a success, BBC Worldwide said.
[38:34.790 --> 38:47.230]  So, they're testing people's responses, not only to the shows that they make, because they're an entity that produces entertainment, but to sponsored content, to ads.
[38:48.370 --> 38:50.730]  I... this is... this can be a little bit scary.
[38:50.870 --> 38:51.050]  I don't know what...
[38:51.050 --> 38:52.510]  I thought the BBC didn't have ads.
[38:52.710 --> 39:04.010]  No, apparently... well, apparently they have... they have marketing campaigns on their website, which is what this was pointing... which is what this was analyzing.
[39:04.010 --> 39:14.410]  So, facial coding showed a 77% increase in, quote, explicit positivity toward the brand's advertising, and a 14% increase in, quote, subconscious positivity when it was clearly marked as sponsored content.
[39:14.850 --> 39:32.510]  And, you know, usually, as... as somebody who watches a certain amount of television produced by the BBC, they're usually the ones that you go to if you want content that's free of such entanglements, because they're... they're a public entity that has this remit to make content and not... not submit to paid advertising like this.
[39:33.030 --> 39:38.210]  So, to... to see this coming from... anyone is a bit scary, but to see it coming from them is a bit extra troubling, I think.
[39:39.870 --> 39:47.350]  Is this a segue into... the... the... source of content and information that doesn't do this sort of thing to its audience?
[39:48.450 --> 39:52.150]  I think... I think... I think a... a source of content like that would be a valuable thing.
[39:52.550 --> 39:53.650]  I don't... I don't... do you know anybody?
[39:54.030 --> 39:55.110]  I do know one.
[39:55.310 --> 40:02.770]  I really only know of... of one, which is Pacifica and WPI, which is a part of it, that takes no money from advertisers.
[40:03.310 --> 40:09.470]  We don't have the budget for this kind of facial tracking study, and if we did have the budget, we'd spend it on something else.
[40:09.470 --> 40:09.730]  Yeah.
[40:09.830 --> 40:11.570]  We have better things to do than watch you through the radio.
[40:12.710 --> 40:25.450]  And if you want to keep us that way, or keep us in existence, because the only way we'll stay in existence is, honestly, 212-209-2950 is the number to call.
[40:28.050 --> 40:30.390]  Give2WBAI.org is the website to visit.
[40:32.050 --> 40:40.490]  We have all kinds of premiums to thank you for your support, and we promise not to videotape your reaction to any of them.
[40:41.050 --> 40:41.490]  Nope.
[40:41.790 --> 40:43.910]  If you want to send us a videotape of your reaction, that's fine.
[40:43.950 --> 40:44.910]  That's on you, but...
[40:44.910 --> 40:48.110]  Yeah, I mean, and we'll look at it, but we won't send it to a computer to analyze.
[40:48.410 --> 41:05.530]  We could speculate about the emotional and facial physiological emotional expressions of our listeners who call 212-209-2950 when they get this amazing package of 100 Hope DVDs, Hope X DVDs...
[41:05.530 --> 41:05.930]  Wait, I'm sorry.
[41:05.950 --> 41:06.430]  ...for only $50.
[41:07.030 --> 41:13.430]  I mean, I could just imagine the look on people's faces when they open this box, and there's 100 DVDs in there, and they realize, I got this for $50.
[41:13.910 --> 41:14.450]  This is great.
[41:14.750 --> 41:30.130]  I'm going to be watching this for months of great material, or on a flash drive for $75, or looking at one of Rob's amazing paintings, Luminaries of the Hacker World or Historical Interest in Telefans, for only $50.
[41:30.570 --> 41:32.670]  I'll bet there's going to be a lot of happy faces.
[41:33.090 --> 41:34.290]  Yeah, you know, you reminded me.
[41:34.330 --> 41:48.410]  I don't think we mentioned that before, but yeah, it is 100 DVDs you would be getting for a pledge of $50, which is... that also is considerably less than we would charge if you were just buying the DVDs of Hope Talks from us in the normal fashion in which they're offered.
[41:48.410 --> 42:11.590]  So, yeah, call 212-209-2950 or go to give2wbai.org and get an instant library of amazing amounts of Hope content, either on physical media, on DVDs, if you still like discs, as I do, or on a convenient thumb drive, which you can take anywhere and plug into your various devices.
[42:11.590 --> 42:14.190]  A thumb drive is for a pledge of $75.
[42:14.670 --> 42:15.150]  Yes, indeed.
[42:15.410 --> 42:32.810]  $50 for the DVDs, $75 for the Hope thumb drive, or a pledge of $50 for either the last remaining Hacker Luminary painting or one of the 10 remaining historical telephone paintings, 212-209-2950 or give2wbai.org.
[42:32.810 --> 42:43.410]  If you're listening to this in the mysterious future on a podcast or an MP3 or whatever comes after that, you can still probably go to give2wbai.org and see how you can support off the hook.
[42:43.570 --> 42:45.050]  If there are any of these left, grab one.
[42:45.170 --> 42:46.730]  If there aren't, there might be something else.
[42:46.890 --> 42:48.890]  Or you could just show your support in general.
[42:49.090 --> 42:58.550]  You could also become a BAI buddy and become a recurring automatic donor, which comes with its own other set of benefits and rewards.
[42:58.550 --> 43:03.090]  So, go to give2wbai.org or call 212-209-2950.
[43:03.090 --> 43:11.890]  If you're interested in that, ask about the BAI buddy program and you will be informed on all the goodies that come with that.
[43:13.330 --> 43:18.270]  I mean, we don't talk a lot about the BAI buddy program, but it is really quite an amazing thing.
[43:18.490 --> 43:24.670]  We just deduct a small amount of money every month from your bank or credit card or however it works.
[43:26.850 --> 43:30.450]  And we know we can count on your recurring support that way.
[43:30.530 --> 43:33.110]  So, we spend less time asking you for money.
[43:33.210 --> 43:39.010]  And you barely notice the pinch on your bank account every month because it's just a few dollars a month.
[43:39.130 --> 43:42.310]  But then at the end of the year, you know, it's tax time.
[43:42.430 --> 43:47.850]  You'll get a receipt in the mail saying how much you've given and how much you've helped to keep us on the air.
[43:47.930 --> 43:53.110]  And it really makes a huge difference if you're in a position to be able to do that kind of thing.
[43:53.110 --> 43:54.510]  And I think a lot of people are.
[43:55.150 --> 44:07.450]  2-1-2-2-0-9-2-9-5-0 or give2wbai.org to sign up for the WBAI buddies program and really, you know, ensure your continued support into the future.
[44:07.690 --> 44:10.030]  It's a really great program if you can do that.
[44:11.110 --> 44:11.490]  That indeed.
[44:12.070 --> 44:13.510]  So, moving on to...
[44:13.510 --> 44:15.610]  Because what we do here is we share information.
[44:15.670 --> 44:18.970]  And we share information for free.
[44:18.970 --> 44:21.250]  We don't charge you to listen to us.
[44:21.330 --> 44:27.090]  You don't have to buy a new radio or subscribe to any service to listen to WBAI.
[44:27.370 --> 44:29.470]  We're here for everybody.
[44:29.470 --> 44:31.150]  And we share what we do freely.
[44:31.410 --> 44:33.970]  And that's something that we think is very important here.
[44:34.170 --> 44:40.410]  And along those lines, there has been something very interesting happening in the world of scientific research.
[44:41.030 --> 44:55.310]  A website called Sci-Hub, that's S-C-I-H-U-B-dot-I-O, was started by someone named Alexandra Elbakyan, who's a neuroscientist from Kazakhstan, who is now based in Russia.
[44:55.590 --> 44:59.770]  And what this site purports to be is the pirate bay for scientists.
[45:01.470 --> 45:05.430]  So, it's like Darwin's beagle or something?
[45:05.770 --> 45:09.570]  The ship, the beagle, it just floats around and they do science on it?
[45:10.450 --> 45:12.370]  But, like, pirate-y science?
[45:12.370 --> 45:13.170]  How does it work?
[45:13.390 --> 45:14.650]  They put an eye patch on the beagle.
[45:14.810 --> 45:17.350]  No, what they do is they are...
[45:17.350 --> 45:23.450]  The Pirate Bay, which, of course, is a website that offers various files that people upload as free downloads...
[45:23.450 --> 45:24.090]  Oh, wait, I know.
[45:24.410 --> 45:27.030]  Research into the best shape for a cutlass?
[45:27.350 --> 45:30.290]  I think that's an interesting tack we could take.
[45:30.510 --> 45:31.750]  That maybe needs more research.
[45:31.750 --> 45:34.190]  I think we need to focus on that a bit at another time.
[45:34.290 --> 45:53.090]  But right now, the Pirate Bay for Scientists, what Sci-Hub is, is a hub where peer-reviewed academic papers, which are normally something shared in various ways, including very expensive subscription-based scientific journals, Sci-Hub wants to share these for free,
[45:53.330 --> 45:55.810]  similar to how the Pirate Bay shares various media.
[45:55.810 --> 46:14.930]  So, Alexandria Albakyan runs Sci-Hub and, yeah, is putting a great deal of scientific research, a lot of it publicly funded stuff that should be, a lot of people believe, free to begin with, up for public download.
[46:15.190 --> 46:22.110]  Just putting it out there for anyone who's interested without needing to buy the papers originally.
[46:22.430 --> 46:27.930]  According to this article on the International Business Times, these papers could retail for up to $30 each.
[46:28.970 --> 46:30.650]  Which is insane, by the way.
[46:30.750 --> 46:32.470]  $30 for a single scientific paper.
[46:32.670 --> 46:36.950]  It might be worth it if the $30 went to the authors of that paper or something, but in general it doesn't.
[46:36.950 --> 46:43.610]  Particularly because a lot of the scientific work was financed with public money.
[46:44.070 --> 46:51.610]  So, and now the public can't even read them for free, with their tax dollars who used to finance this scientific research.
[46:52.190 --> 46:56.150]  Rob, is this similar to what Aaron Schwartz was trying to accomplish?
[46:56.670 --> 47:12.710]  With the JSTOR documents, there are parallels to be drawn there, because, again, Aaron Schwartz was taking scientific research and journals and data that he felt should be shared for free, and just downloading them en masse with credentials that he had,
[47:13.330 --> 47:17.630]  that he had access to, and with an eye toward resharing them.
[47:17.850 --> 47:24.050]  To be clear, there is a difference here, in that he did not redistribute the papers, and this website claims to do so.
[47:24.290 --> 47:24.610]  Indeed he did.
[47:24.610 --> 47:29.150]  Nope, this website is basically completing, I think, what he wanted to do, but didn't get the chance.
[47:30.250 --> 47:46.270]  And Elbakian started this site, because to get through her own thesis, according to this article from IB Times, Elbakian was forced to download pirated versions of the academic papers for free that she needed, and eventually, after being introduced to a website that enabled researchers to share and trade their academic papers among themselves,
[47:47.830 --> 47:50.930]  she decided to take the idea further and create Sci-Hub.
[47:51.930 --> 48:08.450]  So, yeah, the journals themselves, apparently, things like using a proxy at a university can get you access to these things, because it looks like you're coming from an institute of learning, or other things.
[48:08.570 --> 48:11.610]  And people are getting hold of these and resharing them.
[48:11.790 --> 48:28.130]  And this is a very interesting development, I think, because the scientific world is normally seen, I think, in the public sphere as something that's sort of very buttoned down and, I think, formal and things are done in certain ways.
[48:28.410 --> 48:30.710]  And this seems to throw a monkey wrench in some of that.
[48:31.310 --> 48:33.050]  So, Rod, let me get this straight.
[48:34.170 --> 48:35.870]  Tell me if this is how this works.
[48:36.130 --> 48:54.550]  If I'm a scientific researcher and I work at a university, the university very likely has an account with a company like Elsevier who then gets an unlimited account.
[48:54.670 --> 49:03.390]  So, as a researcher working at this university who paid for an unlimited account through Elsevier, where you can download all the academic papers you need to to do your research.
[49:03.630 --> 49:06.550]  It's like buying them in bulk as a subscription.
[49:06.850 --> 49:11.110]  But a lot of these researchers think this is ridiculous that other people have to pay money.
[49:11.270 --> 49:17.330]  So they're then sharing their university credentials to access Elsevier and other sites to get these documents.
[49:17.570 --> 49:21.730]  They're sharing them with this Sci-Hub thing.
[49:21.990 --> 49:27.450]  And now everybody can use these, as you said, proxies to access these accounts.
[49:27.450 --> 49:33.550]  I imagine the company who's making a lot of money selling these, I think unethically selling these research papers.
[49:35.050 --> 49:36.910]  They're probably hopping mad about this.
[49:37.810 --> 49:38.770]  It's a possibility.
[49:39.010 --> 49:55.430]  And this is a feature, apparently, of the Sci-Hub website itself, which when you search through them for a paper, that's when the website looks for paths that it can use to download it for free, like through university proxies and things like that, taking advantage of the standing subscriptions that such places have,
[49:55.430 --> 50:00.310]  but sharing it with a different end user, that being the user of Sci-Hub.
[50:01.470 --> 50:18.070]  At its peak in 2015, the website received 80,000 visitors a day, according to Nature Magazine, and was so popular that an academic publisher called Elsevier, I think I'm pronouncing that incorrectly, possibly, but this publisher brought a copyright lawsuit against the website,
[50:18.230 --> 50:23.330]  claiming it had lost between $75,000 and $150,000 in revenue due to the piracy.
[50:23.330 --> 50:27.430]  Of course, the actual cash figures always attached to piracy are routinely inflated.
[50:27.590 --> 50:41.490]  We've seen that time and again by entities like the MPAA or RIAA, claiming they lost all kinds of money to piracy that wouldn't actually have translated to actual sales if the piracy weren't available.
[50:42.510 --> 50:53.370]  I mean, it seems extremely unlikely that any percentage of this revenue would actually have been booked by this publisher had the piracy website not existed.
[50:54.410 --> 51:00.770]  Very few people, very few individuals are ever going to pay $30 for a single scientific paper.
[51:00.770 --> 51:07.030]  Almost all scientific papers that are paid for are done through institutional subscriptions.
[51:08.770 --> 51:19.650]  And I know I occasionally want to read a paper or something, and if I can find it for free, which I often can, either on the author's website or however, then I do so.
[51:19.730 --> 51:23.870]  But if I end up at a dead end and I have to pay $30, I would never do it.
[51:23.870 --> 51:27.690]  And, you know, I live in the United States, I have $30.
[51:28.490 --> 51:36.970]  Lots of people in the world do not have $30, and it's just not even an option for them to pay for a single paper, let alone an option they don't take.
[51:37.210 --> 51:43.450]  So I think these lost revenue numbers are entirely incredible.
[51:43.770 --> 51:44.090]  Yeah.
[51:44.270 --> 51:55.010]  And what's interesting about this too is, of course, the existence of Sci-Hub is a great deal, owes a great deal to the active participation of members of the scientific community themselves.
[51:55.650 --> 51:57.090]  It's the scientists doing this.
[51:57.230 --> 52:02.970]  It's not somebody, like, from outside that world busting in and doing this stuff.
[52:03.130 --> 52:11.670]  It's the people themselves, it's the community itself that's doing this work and that's using this work and reusing it and benefiting from it.
[52:12.430 --> 52:18.590]  They're the ones that are agreeing that maybe these things shouldn't go for $30 a pop and they should be publicly available.
[52:19.610 --> 52:27.310]  And so since the injunctions and things started coming down, the site has moved on to what's colloquially known as the dark web.
[52:29.550 --> 52:30.850]  What does that mean?
[52:31.070 --> 52:43.210]  The dark web is basically an internet, a chunk of the internet, if you will, that is exclusive to people using certain privacy-enhancing technologies, such as Tor.
[52:44.010 --> 52:48.410]  And the funny thing is that to get to this, you need to go through the dark web because...
[52:48.410 --> 52:51.030]  I thought it just meant that all the web pages had black backgrounds.
[52:51.430 --> 52:52.990]  No, no, that's the 1990s.
[52:53.150 --> 52:55.050]  Ah, sorry, I was confused.
[52:55.590 --> 53:11.170]  But since it's on the dark web and since the scientific community are the ones making a lot of use of this, there are things like YouTube tutorials popping up to help people find their way onto the dark web to begin with in order to use Sci-Hub and get hold of this research.
[53:12.390 --> 53:12.990]  So, yeah.
[53:13.550 --> 53:17.790]  Wasn't the original domain name sci-hub.org?
[53:18.010 --> 53:21.170]  And didn't that get shut down through the legal process?
[53:21.350 --> 53:23.830]  So now it's sci-hub.io.
[53:24.150 --> 53:26.550]  Mike, do you know what the top-level domain IO is for?
[53:26.890 --> 53:29.610]  It is the British Indian Ocean Territory.
[53:29.950 --> 53:32.410]  Oh, see, I knew you would know that, Mike.
[53:32.410 --> 53:34.270]  I have another question you might know the answer to.
[53:34.270 --> 53:34.630]  Uh-oh.
[53:35.430 --> 53:43.230]  Unlike the, well, maybe like, you know how the recording industry, musicians, they make their money selling their music.
[53:43.310 --> 53:45.890]  And they deserve to make a living making music.
[53:45.990 --> 53:48.610]  I think that's an important part of a progressive society.
[53:49.110 --> 53:57.490]  But a lot of musicians have found with their music just being pirated and shared routinely online, it's harder for them to sell their music.
[53:57.690 --> 53:59.970]  Although a lot of musicians still manage to make a living.
[54:01.190 --> 54:16.230]  Is there any way that this sci-hub system would cause scientists to not want to do research anymore because their information is being shared in the scientific community?
[54:16.230 --> 54:18.130]  Or is that a really bad analogy?
[54:19.710 --> 54:22.550]  It seems extremely unlikely to me.
[54:23.630 --> 54:29.390]  The amount of sales of any one scientific paper is probably zero.
[54:29.770 --> 54:33.770]  Like, zero papers are sold at retail to a very good approximation.
[54:33.770 --> 54:40.990]  But to the degree that it's more than zero, it's not how scientists make their livings.
[54:42.090 --> 54:44.990]  And look, we can talk about what the model should be.
[54:45.810 --> 54:48.610]  I think it's clear that the current model is not the way it should be.
[54:48.850 --> 54:51.750]  We can talk about whether this is an appropriate response to that or not.
[54:52.630 --> 54:58.230]  But the model as it exists is just not supporting science.
[54:58.230 --> 55:00.610]  It's not supporting the scientists.
[55:01.110 --> 55:07.890]  It's just supporting the journal publishers, who in the age of print were providing a very useful service.
[55:07.890 --> 55:13.090]  If you wanted a scientific paper, you had to go to the university library because that's where the scientific papers went.
[55:13.190 --> 55:16.430]  You couldn't have every single scientific paper in your home.
[55:16.550 --> 55:18.470]  And they were actual papers made of paper.
[55:19.190 --> 55:21.950]  But now, that's not necessary anymore.
[55:22.190 --> 55:30.910]  And I hope... a lot of scientists I know are working to change the system because it's really not benefiting the public at large or the scientists themselves.
[55:31.110 --> 55:32.690]  But it's going to take some time.
[55:32.690 --> 55:32.990]  Right.
[55:33.150 --> 55:34.650]  And the journal publishing...
[55:34.650 --> 55:52.070]  I'd like to posit the opinion that if universities didn't have to pay companies like Elsevier to access all these academic and scientific documents, maybe that would free up more money for research.
[55:53.030 --> 55:55.130]  So, I think this is a good thing.
[55:56.010 --> 55:56.530]  Indeed.
[55:56.850 --> 56:09.010]  And the scientific journal business model is, I think, a good analog to things like the large record company business model or the huge Hollywood studio business model, which are things that are also less and less relevant as technology progresses.
[56:09.510 --> 56:10.590]  But, I mean, there's a difference.
[56:10.770 --> 56:13.050]  Like, huge Hollywood studios actually make movies.
[56:13.210 --> 56:13.870]  This is true.
[56:14.190 --> 56:16.270]  Large journal publishers do not make science.
[56:16.490 --> 56:17.270]  This is true.
[56:17.310 --> 56:23.790]  But you can also make a movie yourself and publish it yourself without needing a studio to distribute it for you.
[56:23.790 --> 56:25.310]  But, look, I'm not...
[56:26.230 --> 56:31.730]  If I'm the defender of the entertainment industry on the show, then it's because this is a very weird show.
[56:33.130 --> 56:34.870]  There are things that studios...
[56:34.870 --> 56:44.710]  Hollywood studios can do with millions of dollars that you and I in our apartments with $1,000 cameras cannot do.
[56:44.850 --> 56:46.750]  And we can debate whether it's worth it or not.
[56:46.850 --> 56:49.910]  But, like, the Hollywood studios actually do something.
[56:49.910 --> 56:54.510]  They do a lot of evil things, but they actually, at the end of the day, occasionally make a movie.
[56:54.830 --> 56:56.750]  And some of them are worth watching.
[56:57.790 --> 57:01.850]  The scientific journal publishers do not do science.
[57:02.010 --> 57:03.230]  They do not fund science.
[57:03.390 --> 57:05.030]  They do not cause science to be done.
[57:05.250 --> 57:10.610]  They are the means by which scientists communicate about their work after they have already done it.
[57:10.790 --> 57:12.930]  And I think that's a very important distinction.
[57:14.410 --> 57:16.270]  This all bears a lot of thought.
[57:16.490 --> 57:34.630]  And, of course, if anyone is a professional scientist in our listenership, please send us an email, OTH at 2600.com, and let us know your take on this whole issue because we love our diverse band of listeners and hearing from them when their expertise is actually applicable to what we're saying.
[57:34.630 --> 57:37.050]  And we can learn a bit of something ourselves.
[57:37.290 --> 57:41.910]  If I'm missing something and getting it completely wrong, OTH at 2600.com, send us an email.
[57:41.910 --> 57:44.550]  On that note, we're going to take a short break.
[57:44.550 --> 57:45.450]  I'll play you a tune.
[57:45.790 --> 57:50.870]  And then we will continue with our second hour of our special two-hour edition of Off The Hook.
[57:58.250 --> 58:04.150]  I walk up to your home, attach your TNI up to my phone.
[58:04.510 --> 58:09.650]  Who I cause unknown, all I know is our beige box alone.
[58:15.160 --> 58:23.400]  Sit by the pay phone, sending operators red box tones, calling all time zones.
[58:23.460 --> 58:26.740]  I sit here all day and I freak alone.
[58:28.960 --> 58:32.360]  I freak alone, I freak alone.
[58:34.360 --> 58:37.800]  I freak alone, I freak alone.
[58:38.200 --> 58:43.140]  You're calling in car, lets me call everybody.
[58:43.800 --> 58:48.800]  From Paris to the San Fernando Valley.
[58:49.460 --> 58:54.580]  Someday I wish someone would share my hobby.
[58:55.200 --> 58:58.600]  Till then I freak alone.
[59:12.010 --> 59:17.690]  Calling your home phone, your machine picks up and I play touch tones.
[59:18.090 --> 59:23.050]  Brute forcing your code, spying on your messages alone.
[59:29.630 --> 59:34.590]  Nobody's around, pull my notebook out and write things down.
[59:34.870 --> 59:40.030]  Check my numbers now, calling this PBX switch alone.
[59:42.310 --> 59:45.830]  Cause I freak alone, I freak alone.
[59:48.290 --> 59:51.210]  Cause I freak alone, I freak alone.
[59:51.210 --> 59:51.290]  I freak alone, I freak alone.
[59:51.810 --> 59:56.650]  The dumpster's right behind the phone company.
[59:56.650 --> 01:00:01.650]  I climb in, I climb in, watching close for security.
[01:00:02.930 --> 01:00:08.190]  Someday I'll have someone to look out for me.
[01:00:08.530 --> 01:00:12.050]  Till then I trash alone.
[01:00:21.730 --> 01:00:25.150]  I freak alone, I freak alone.
[01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:56.480]  The program I phone, change my ES and your cell is cloned.
[01:00:56.720 --> 01:01:01.790]  Technique is well known, even so I do all this son.
[01:01:02.200 --> 01:01:07.140]  You're calling car, lets me call everybody.
[01:01:08.200 --> 01:01:12.840]  From Paris to the San Fernando Valley.
[01:01:14.580 --> 01:01:18.640]  Someday I'll wish someone to share my hobby.
[01:01:53.190 --> 01:01:55.410]  That was I Freak Alone by Bonecage.
[01:01:56.570 --> 01:01:59.350]  You are listening to WBAI New York.
[01:01:59.570 --> 01:02:02.270]  The time is just about 8.02 PM.
[01:02:02.690 --> 01:02:06.610]  And this is not the personal computer show.
[01:02:06.730 --> 01:02:09.690]  If you're tuning in for our friends at the PC show, they have the night off.
[01:02:09.690 --> 01:02:12.450]  They'll be returning next week with a two-hour special edition.
[01:02:12.790 --> 01:02:17.910]  But for now you're listening to the second hour of a special edition of our show, which is Off the Hook.
[01:02:19.790 --> 01:02:30.450]  And yeah, so that was a little freaky song dedicated to Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, who I'm sure enjoys his doses of history.
[01:02:31.210 --> 01:02:33.870]  So a lot of other stuff going on in the world for us to talk about.
[01:02:34.410 --> 01:02:38.410]  I know there was a story about coming out of India that you know a bit about, Mike.
[01:02:38.410 --> 01:02:40.070]  Yeah, there's some really good news.
[01:02:40.270 --> 01:02:43.110]  We've talked about this a bit in the past.
[01:02:43.850 --> 01:02:57.890]  This program that Facebook has been sponsoring called Free Basics, which is where people on certain mobile carriers in India were allowed to access selected parts of the internet for free, which sounds like a good deal.
[01:02:58.050 --> 01:03:04.710]  But the funny fact, the parts of the internet they were able to access for free, Facebook, which was paying for it.
[01:03:04.710 --> 01:03:10.770]  And so if they wanted to get access to the whole internet, then they had to pay extra money for it.
[01:03:10.970 --> 01:03:17.130]  And that is zero rating is what that's called, where certain websites are free and others are not.
[01:03:17.530 --> 01:03:21.630]  And it is a violation of net neutrality.
[01:03:21.630 --> 01:03:25.930]  Of course, the principle that all traffic should be treated equally.
[01:03:26.590 --> 01:03:31.610]  And there's been a really amazing campaign by some folks in India called Save the Internet.
[01:03:34.330 --> 01:03:41.450]  And to, you know, oppose zero rating, say that all internet traffic should be treated equally and charged equally.
[01:03:41.730 --> 01:03:43.790]  If you want to visit Facebook, that's okay.
[01:03:43.810 --> 01:03:45.370]  If you want to visit Twitter, that's okay.
[01:03:45.410 --> 01:03:47.750]  If you want to visit your grandmother's website, that's okay.
[01:03:48.010 --> 01:03:51.530]  Whatever you want to do on the internet, just pay for the data you use.
[01:03:51.530 --> 01:03:52.790]  Because it's a pretty reasonable principle.
[01:03:53.310 --> 01:03:56.170]  And it is now the law in India.
[01:03:56.370 --> 01:03:58.290]  Congratulations to the campaigners there.
[01:04:00.870 --> 01:04:18.230]  There's a ruling that was published, I don't know the date of this article, but since we were last on the air, by TRI, T-R-A-I, the Telecom Regulatory Authority of India, which said zero rating is not allowed in India.
[01:04:20.250 --> 01:04:30.590]  There's one weird thing, which is that the fine for violating this is 50,000 rupees a day, which is less than $1,000.
[01:04:32.030 --> 01:04:37.290]  So if Facebook really wanted to, they could just pay $1,000 a day, they wouldn't even notice the difference.
[01:04:37.530 --> 01:04:53.730]  And it's helpfully capped at 5 million rupees per year, which is less than $10,000, an amount of money that literally Facebook would not even notice missing from their bank accounts if it suddenly disappeared.
[01:04:53.870 --> 01:04:54.970]  I think they have that in their couch.
[01:04:55.550 --> 01:05:02.430]  It's actually 73,500, which, yeah, they probably make that much money in the time it takes Mark Zuckerberg to blink.
[01:05:02.790 --> 01:05:04.330]  Rob says they leave that in their couch.
[01:05:04.330 --> 01:05:05.530]  I'm sure they have couches.
[01:05:05.690 --> 01:05:09.390]  I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg's couch costs more than that, quite literally.
[01:05:10.770 --> 01:05:14.110]  So I hope they do the right thing and, you know, back down.
[01:05:14.250 --> 01:05:17.510]  But if they really wanted to play hardball, they could.
[01:05:18.410 --> 01:05:21.270]  Bernie, you think we'll ever have this kind of rule in the United States?
[01:05:21.910 --> 01:05:24.450]  Well, you know, India is the world's largest democracy.
[01:05:25.270 --> 01:05:29.910]  We here in the United States have a constitutional republic.
[01:05:29.910 --> 01:05:31.430]  We don't really have a democracy here.
[01:05:31.430 --> 01:05:39.610]  And I would love to see something like that happen in this country where net neutrality is made the law of the land.
[01:05:39.950 --> 01:05:44.730]  But apparently the folks in India have one up on us.
[01:05:44.830 --> 01:05:45.610]  And they're really...
[01:05:46.330 --> 01:05:51.110]  This is really amazingly progressive to me that they pulled this off.
[01:05:51.210 --> 01:05:52.350]  Are you surprised this happened?
[01:05:53.490 --> 01:05:59.290]  I mean, look, I don't know enough about telecom regulation in India to be surprised or not.
[01:05:59.390 --> 01:06:04.350]  But I'm impressed that a public campaign...
[01:06:04.930 --> 01:06:07.550]  You know, not everyone in India has the internet.
[01:06:07.690 --> 01:06:10.030]  Not everyone in India can care about the internet.
[01:06:10.210 --> 01:06:16.750]  There are a lot of people in India for whom something that's got zero rupees on the price tag seems like a good deal.
[01:06:16.750 --> 01:06:26.250]  But I'm impressed that there were enough people who realized that this is a bad deal and rose up and wrote letters and opposed it, were able to get it stopped.
[01:06:27.070 --> 01:06:32.470]  So, these are people that were arguing, and a lot of the people don't have internet access in India.
[01:06:32.790 --> 01:06:40.410]  They're saying, you know, if our only internet access for free is going to be Facebook, we don't want internet access at all.
[01:06:40.410 --> 01:06:43.030]  Is that basically what they're starting out with?
[01:06:43.230 --> 01:06:45.210]  I don't know if they would phrase it quite that way.
[01:06:45.310 --> 01:06:46.950]  Well, but that's what it amounts to.
[01:06:47.010 --> 01:06:47.830]  That took a lot of courage.
[01:06:47.990 --> 01:06:48.550]  It's like, you know what?
[01:06:48.750 --> 01:06:52.510]  It'd be nice to have Facebook along with everything else that's on the internet.
[01:06:52.570 --> 01:06:58.070]  But if that's the only thing you're going to give us and you're not going to let us use other stuff, then we're going to wait.
[01:06:58.330 --> 01:07:04.890]  We're going to wait until we really have net neutrality and we can access anything on the internet instead of just Facebook.
[01:07:04.890 --> 01:07:14.210]  This is really kind of arrogant, I think, of Mark Zuckerberg to say, all right, we're going to give you free internet, but the only thing you can access is Facebook.
[01:07:14.590 --> 01:07:16.890]  And to be completely clear, there were other websites.
[01:07:17.450 --> 01:07:19.730]  They had other partners as part of this.
[01:07:19.910 --> 01:07:24.370]  But there were all kinds of bizarre technical rules in the free basics program.
[01:07:24.810 --> 01:07:34.290]  You were not allowed to use HTTPS, for instance, so that people could spy on your internet traffic if you couldn't afford to pay for internet access.
[01:07:34.290 --> 01:07:39.110]  It was really a second-class internet in every conceivable way.
[01:07:39.510 --> 01:07:43.170]  And that's what Mark Zuckerberg wanted to give the people of India.
[01:07:43.410 --> 01:07:45.230]  And I'm glad that he was stopped.
[01:07:45.970 --> 01:07:47.150]  What else were they would get?
[01:07:47.630 --> 01:07:52.150]  They would get Facebook, I think Wikipedia, and maybe one or two other things?
[01:07:52.150 --> 01:07:58.210]  I mean, I don't have a complete list, but among the sites in it was... I want to get the right one.
[01:07:58.670 --> 01:07:59.070]  Sorry.
[01:08:01.530 --> 01:08:05.750]  I don't want to give blame to the wrong entity.
[01:08:07.610 --> 01:08:08.650]  I'm going to look for you, too.
[01:08:08.730 --> 01:08:16.270]  Flipkart, I think, is the one that was included, which is a large internet shopping site in India.
[01:08:16.270 --> 01:08:17.130]  Yeah, Flipkart is the one.
[01:08:17.410 --> 01:08:18.530]  Oh, and Bing search, too.
[01:08:19.130 --> 01:08:19.610]  But...
[01:08:19.610 --> 01:08:20.390]  And the weather.
[01:08:21.310 --> 01:08:21.530]  Yeah.
[01:08:21.850 --> 01:08:24.330]  So, Flipkart was in it, but their competitors were not.
[01:08:24.450 --> 01:08:35.990]  So, it was a very clear goal to get people who were just joining the internet to go on Flipkart and to avoid Snapdeal and Amazon and their other competitors.
[01:08:37.350 --> 01:08:46.290]  And who, rightly, a lot of, you know, large Indian internet companies took the very noble position of saying, no, I don't want to be part of this program.
[01:08:47.030 --> 01:08:55.510]  Some of the travel sites and other things, you know, lost presumably customers because they said, we do not wish to participate in this unethical program.
[01:08:55.910 --> 01:09:01.430]  And so, I'm glad that those companies will be able to stick around and compete on a level playing field.
[01:09:01.430 --> 01:09:05.070]  And maybe some of those companies will still lose because the marketplace doesn't like them.
[01:09:05.170 --> 01:09:05.590]  That's fine.
[01:09:05.790 --> 01:09:11.630]  But at least they're able to say, you know, compete on their own merits.
[01:09:12.390 --> 01:09:23.630]  Unlike the United States where T-Mobile in particular, but other carriers are picking and choosing which websites you can visit for free on your phone and charging you money to visit others.
[01:09:23.630 --> 01:09:24.230]  Absolutely.
[01:09:24.450 --> 01:09:32.770]  And this is, in a nutshell, like this is an exact example of the arguments we've been having in favor of net neutrality for years and years now.
[01:09:34.030 --> 01:09:40.710]  It's always like, for those who still haven't been totally clear on the issue of what net neutrality means, this is what it means.
[01:09:40.710 --> 01:09:57.070]  It means stopping carriers like, or entities like Facebook with vested business interests in controlling what you can and can't look at on the net to just basically saying, no, that's not cool.
[01:09:57.210 --> 01:10:05.210]  You cannot control what people can and can't look at on the net because that makes it an unlevel playing field for everyone.
[01:10:05.210 --> 01:10:08.470]  And it's really shady.
[01:10:08.670 --> 01:10:22.990]  I mean, imagine if this had gone through, what it would have been worth to any company to pay Facebook basically a toll to get on the internet that all these people with free internet would be allowed to look at and get into that little inner circle.
[01:10:23.130 --> 01:10:24.370]  It's scary stuff.
[01:10:24.530 --> 01:10:25.510]  It frightens me.
[01:10:26.750 --> 01:10:33.450]  Savetheinternet.in, which is the entity that really led the charge on this and I'm incredibly impressed with.
[01:10:33.450 --> 01:10:56.430]  If they put out a statement after this ruling came down and they do have, they do note two caveats, which is that, uh, try the regulatory agency has still not ruled on a proposal to block, uh, VoIP services like WhatsApp and Viber and Skype that, uh, a lot of the telecom providers don't like because it's a lot cheaper than making international phone calls.
[01:10:56.430 --> 01:11:06.250]  Uh, so that is, uh, they urge, uh, citizens should be vigilant as always and should consider participating in this process in the future.
[01:11:06.530 --> 01:11:17.550]  So I hope that comes down and they also know that this is a regulatory decision which could still be appealed, uh, in court or, uh, through legislation if it comes to that.
[01:11:17.550 --> 01:11:30.150]  So it, it, the, the fight here isn't done, but it's a really encouraging, uh, step in this battle in India where almost everyone who has the internet gets it through their mobile phone.
[01:11:30.730 --> 01:11:33.090]  And, uh, I, I, like I said, I wish the U.S.
[01:11:33.130 --> 01:11:33.790]  would follow suit.
[01:11:34.950 --> 01:11:47.470]  It's very heartening to see, uh, like we, we, uh, we, we report, we've reported so much on various fights for net neutrality and some of them have, uh, come out happily and some of them have come out, uh, I think depressingly.
[01:11:47.690 --> 01:11:52.010]  And it's always good to get good news regarding net neutrality once in a while.
[01:11:52.470 --> 01:11:57.170]  So, yeah, we'll definitely be keeping an eye on this and, uh, and other related things.
[01:11:57.170 --> 01:12:02.990]  Um, so, yeah, this is, uh, for those just joining us for the second hour, this is a fundraising episode.
[01:12:03.350 --> 01:12:07.270]  Um, I guess if you're just joining us, then you might not know we're not the personal computer show.
[01:12:07.410 --> 01:12:07.930]  We're off the hook.
[01:12:08.110 --> 01:12:08.470]  Indeed.
[01:12:08.710 --> 01:12:09.770]  We're, uh, we're off the hook.
[01:12:09.890 --> 01:12:11.750]  We're not the PC show, but we hope you like us too.
[01:12:12.270 --> 01:12:23.610]  Um, we, we definitely like us and we, we like the station and we like the freedom that it gives us to talk about, uh, things like net neutrality and, um, shady dealings by those with, uh, vested interests.
[01:12:25.110 --> 01:12:35.990]  So, if you think this is important as well, if you think WBAI is as important a resource as we think it is, if you think off the hook is, uh, is important and, uh, we should be able to keep doing what we're doing.
[01:12:36.110 --> 01:12:43.630]  If you think, you know, Pacifica, if you think WBAI are vital resources that, uh, if they disappeared, it would be very, very saddening.
[01:12:43.630 --> 01:12:56.990]  Um, you can help us change, you can help us, uh, keep that from happening by calling 212-209-2950 or by going to give2wbai.org and, uh, offering what you can to help keep us on the air.
[01:12:57.550 --> 01:13:01.710]  Um, for, we, we have some, uh, thank you gifts to offer in exchange for your support.
[01:13:01.710 --> 01:13:11.070]  For a pledge of, uh, $50, you can get, uh, set of over a hundred DVDs of, uh, of talks from our HOPE conference.
[01:13:11.590 --> 01:13:12.870]  What a contrast.
[01:13:13.370 --> 01:13:18.710]  Uh, you pledge $50 to WBAI and we will thank you with a hundred DVDs.
[01:13:19.490 --> 01:13:19.850]  Yes.
[01:13:20.010 --> 01:13:22.270]  And you can redistribute these as you wish.
[01:13:22.450 --> 01:13:23.950]  We don't put any DRM on them.
[01:13:24.050 --> 01:13:26.170]  We don't put any restrictions on them.
[01:13:26.170 --> 01:13:36.230]  Um, it contrasts with, as we were talking earlier, the academic publishers, which charge $30 for, uh, you know, a 10-page scientific paper.
[01:13:36.910 --> 01:13:53.710]  And, uh, what, what a, what a difference, uh, when you support us, you keep us on the air, you enable us to produce more shows, you enable, uh, the transmitter on the top of the Empire State Building to stay on, to continue to have electricity.
[01:13:54.250 --> 01:14:02.670]  All that with your pledge of $50 or more, 212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org.
[01:14:02.850 --> 01:14:03.310]  All right.
[01:14:03.510 --> 01:14:13.250]  And, uh, if you'd like to offer a little bit more support and, uh, and, uh, media shift a bit, you can get that content on a thumb drive, a USB drive as digital video files.
[01:14:13.250 --> 01:14:16.210]  Again, with no insulting DRM or any garbage like that.
[01:14:16.510 --> 01:14:22.630]  But, uh, just on a convenient, uh, USB stick that you could plug into your device of choice and watch with your software of choice.
[01:14:22.910 --> 01:14:32.190]  Um, so long as it's a video playing software that's, uh, up to current standards, you will be able to watch this, uh, watch this stuff and, um, you know, show your friends.
[01:14:32.190 --> 01:14:39.770]  Uh, do, you know, gain, gain, uh, instant on-demand access to a great deal of material on all sorts of eclectic subjects.
[01:14:40.230 --> 01:14:47.790]  Um, things you, things you want to know about, things you don't know yet that you want to know about but that you will have wanted to know about once you know about it.
[01:14:47.790 --> 01:14:59.190]  Give to WBAI.org or 212-209-2950 and, uh, and you can relive our, uh, our presentations that we've had at the HOPE conference, uh, the next of which is coming up in July.
[01:14:59.670 --> 01:15:04.470]  And, uh, which features, uh, newly announced keynote speaker, Cory Doctorow of Boing Boing.
[01:15:05.790 --> 01:15:06.350]  So, yeah.
[01:15:06.350 --> 01:15:17.770]  And I want to point out that our, if you, if you get this package of, uh, HOPEX DVDs or the flash drive, uh, by just supporting WBAI, um, uh, a couple of our keynotes from, uh, from HOPEX.
[01:15:17.770 --> 01:15:30.290]  Which was two years ago, was, uh, Edward Snowden and Daniel Ellsberg having an amazing conversation about, uh, about being, why you should be a whistleblower and what they went through and their experiences.
[01:15:30.290 --> 01:15:44.970]  So this is really amazing content and there's a hundred DVDs, um, that you can get for just pledging $50 by calling 212-209-2950 or $75 for the, uh, for it all on, it'll fit in your pocket on a USB flash drive.
[01:15:44.970 --> 01:15:54.410]  Or, and I don't want to forget, I know you don't like to toot your own horn, uh, uh, uh, Rob, but you've painted these amazing portraits, luminaries of the hacker world.
[01:15:54.730 --> 01:16:02.930]  I don't know if there's any of them left, but anybody can call 212-209-2950 for $50, get this amazing portrait of a luminary from the hacker world.
[01:16:02.930 --> 01:16:12.250]  Um, or there will be, uh, as you are, maybe not as we speak, but you are in the process of painting, uh, a series of historical interesting telephone paintings.
[01:16:12.250 --> 01:16:19.490]  And they're also $50, um, by anyone who, to anyone who charge calls 212-209-2950.
[01:16:19.710 --> 01:16:29.930]  So this is a great selection of premiums, uh, artistic and creative and intellectual content, uh, and supporting a radio station that brings that kind of stuff to you.
[01:16:30.290 --> 01:16:33.730]  Uh, please support WBAI by calling 212-209-2950.
[01:16:33.730 --> 01:16:34.090]  Right.
[01:16:34.270 --> 01:16:38.770]  I, I should mention that, uh, I'm, I'm now checking the totals and the luminaries of the hacker world painting.
[01:16:38.870 --> 01:16:39.990]  The last one has been claimed.
[01:16:40.210 --> 01:16:41.550]  So those are out of stock now.
[01:16:41.770 --> 01:16:42.610]  I'm not surprised.
[01:16:42.770 --> 01:16:42.850]  Yeah.
[01:16:42.950 --> 01:16:46.110]  Thank you very much to everyone who's, uh, who's gotten hold of one of these.
[01:16:46.250 --> 01:16:48.410]  And, uh, please let us know what you think of them.
[01:16:48.530 --> 01:16:49.870]  OTH at 2600.com.
[01:16:50.250 --> 01:16:54.950]  Um, there are still, uh, there are still nine of the historical telephone paintings left.
[01:16:55.210 --> 01:17:00.190]  Um, I donated a certain amount and, uh, uh, over a third of them have been claimed.
[01:17:01.310 --> 01:17:09.390]  So, yeah, you can, you can get hold of, uh, one of the limited stock remaining of this, uh, this particular set, which I am in the process of painting, um, for a pledge of $50.
[01:17:09.730 --> 01:17:17.810]  It's a five by seven inch stretch canvas, acrylic paint, and, uh, an actual, uh, an actual piece of original artwork, not a print, not a copy.
[01:17:18.310 --> 01:17:29.910]  Um, just something that, uh, I, who, who am a professional artist, um, produce because I'm donating this work to the radio station in order to do what I can to keep this place going.
[01:17:29.910 --> 01:17:47.670]  And you can do what you can to keep this place going by calling 212-209-2950 or going to give to wbai.org and pledging for either the historical telephones painting or the hope DVDs or the hope, uh, thumb drive and, uh, or, or just pledging any amounts that,
[01:17:47.830 --> 01:17:48.490]  uh, that you wish.
[01:17:48.490 --> 01:17:51.790]  $25 and above be, um, get you a membership in the station.
[01:17:51.790 --> 01:17:53.190]  You'll get a say in what goes on here.
[01:17:53.490 --> 01:18:00.070]  Um, but really any amount helps, um, every single, um, amount that, uh, that you could come up with to share.
[01:18:00.270 --> 01:18:03.670]  You know, if you'd like to share more than, uh, $50 or $75, please feel free to.
[01:18:04.130 --> 01:18:10.830]  Um, I know at least one listener who pledged multiple times to get more than one of these paintings, and, you know, I'm, I'm very tickled by that.
[01:18:12.030 --> 01:18:15.830]  Um, and, uh, yeah, so if you, if you'd like to pledge more, you can.
[01:18:15.930 --> 01:18:18.270]  If you'd like to pledge, um, uh, less, you can.
[01:18:18.490 --> 01:18:31.930]  Um, and you will be helping us keep the lights on, keep the transmitter paid for, um, and keep the airwaves, uh, basically as interesting and as valuable as we think, uh, as we think we can with what we do here.
[01:18:32.690 --> 01:18:38.430]  I'm sure we have at least one listener, uh, for whom, you know, $10 is all they can give at this time.
[01:18:38.430 --> 01:18:48.790]  And, uh, we would really love it if you're able to do that and call 212-209-2950 and just pledge those $10, uh, to help keep the lights on here.
[01:18:48.950 --> 01:18:51.330]  We don't have a lot of lights, actually.
[01:18:51.530 --> 01:19:01.670]  Uh, it's a very bare bones facility, but, uh, helping us keep, keep on, keep on, uh, really is, is important.
[01:19:01.970 --> 01:19:07.170]  Uh, similarly, I know there are listeners, uh, who are able to afford $100 or $200.
[01:19:07.690 --> 01:19:14.250]  And if you're in a position to be able to do that, again, 212-209-2950, keep us on the air.
[01:19:14.810 --> 01:19:19.030]  And, uh, cause it, you know, if the station goes off the air, it will not be recreated.
[01:19:19.170 --> 01:19:29.770]  There will never be an opportunity for an entity like Pacifica to get an FM radio station in Manhattan if we lose the signal we currently have.
[01:19:29.770 --> 01:19:30.090]  Right.
[01:19:30.310 --> 01:19:35.390]  It's, it's just, there's no way these stations go for millions and millions of dollars even now.
[01:19:35.930 --> 01:19:51.550]  And, uh, you know, unless you're going to be in a position to donate millions and millions of dollars next year to, to get the station back, you should give, you know, whatever you can give, whether it's $10 or $50 or $75 to get the premiums we were talking about or more.
[01:19:51.550 --> 01:19:58.310]  Uh, now, 212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org and show your support.
[01:19:58.670 --> 01:19:58.910]  Absolutely.
[01:19:59.170 --> 01:20:03.650]  I mean, the, the story is way too convoluted to go into with the limited time we have left on this program.
[01:20:03.650 --> 01:20:11.430]  But I encourage you, if you're at all curious, uh, go online and read some of the history of WBAI and how the station originally came to be.
[01:20:11.730 --> 01:20:16.810]  Because basically the, the stars and planets aligned in such a way that, um, this would never happen again.
[01:20:17.390 --> 01:20:27.330]  Um, the, the, uh, activist community was basically handed this station on a platter by a very generous and very wise and very, very kind person, um, who had access to it.
[01:20:27.330 --> 01:20:29.370]  But that, that would not happen again.
[01:20:29.370 --> 01:20:31.830]  That would not happen in this, in today's media environments.
[01:20:31.970 --> 01:20:34.390]  That would not happen in today's activism environments.
[01:20:34.390 --> 01:20:40.210]  That wouldn't happen in any way, shape, or form today with, uh, with any comparable degree of value.
[01:20:40.390 --> 01:20:43.910]  I mean, this was over 50 years ago this happened, and it was crazy that it happened.
[01:20:43.990 --> 01:20:45.030]  This place is a damn fluke.
[01:20:45.510 --> 01:20:51.210]  And, uh, it's our fluke, and we would really, really hate to miss it, um, hate to lose it, and it would be missed.
[01:20:51.210 --> 01:20:58.970]  So call 212-209-2950 or go to gif2wbai.org and do what you can to keep us going here.
[01:20:59.330 --> 01:21:01.970]  I mean, the last time there was a major...
[01:21:01.970 --> 01:21:12.470]  I'd like to point out, too, that unlike certain public radio stations, I'm not going to name them, but they accept a lot of corporate underwriting and government money to keep them on the air.
[01:21:13.710 --> 01:21:19.110]  As Rob was saying, this station is really held together with shoestring.
[01:21:19.110 --> 01:21:28.610]  And it's running on a shoestring with bubblegum and duct tape, literally, holding stuff together.
[01:21:28.850 --> 01:21:31.930]  And just because it's been on the air for, what, like 60 years?
[01:21:32.030 --> 01:21:32.890]  Is that about right, Rob?
[01:21:33.110 --> 01:21:33.990]  Yeah, something like that.
[01:21:34.170 --> 01:21:39.530]  Just because WBA has been on the air for 60 years is no guarantee it's going to be on the air.
[01:21:39.690 --> 01:21:43.810]  Unlike these other public radio stations where they have six-figure...
[01:21:43.810 --> 01:21:46.250]  employees played six figures and then some.
[01:21:47.090 --> 01:21:57.670]  This station is running on a shoestring, and yet it's got a transmitter on top of the Empire State Building that reaches like 80 miles in all directions, and you have the web stream that many of us are listening to.
[01:21:57.990 --> 01:21:59.150]  That is unique.
[01:21:59.350 --> 01:22:05.370]  There's nothing else like this in the United States, where the biggest city in the country has a resource like this.
[01:22:05.530 --> 01:22:06.750]  It's just amazing.
[01:22:06.750 --> 01:22:13.190]  If you think this is what the public deserves, you've got to pitch in just a little bit.
[01:22:13.570 --> 01:22:23.370]  Whatever you can, just call 212-209-2950, and you'll be part of a story that is making really interesting programming available to lots of people.
[01:22:23.990 --> 01:22:33.410]  Literally, Bernie, the only time in my life I've ever met an executive with a corner office with a secretary out front was when I had some business dealings.
[01:22:33.410 --> 01:22:42.590]  And I won't name the specific entity, but it was a public radio station, which asks you for their support and also takes huge amounts of corporate underwriting.
[01:22:43.210 --> 01:22:49.450]  I can tell you a BAI we do not have... well, I guess there's an office, and the last one in the row is in the corner.
[01:22:49.610 --> 01:22:53.850]  But we do not have executives with corner offices and anything fancy going on.
[01:22:54.710 --> 01:22:57.410]  This is, as I said, a shoestring operation.
[01:22:58.770 --> 01:23:13.910]  Most of our expenses, I think, go to electricity and rent on the transmitter, because in New York City, you have to put a transmitter on the top of a very tall building, and there's only a handful of buildings tall enough with the proper antennas up there.
[01:23:15.930 --> 01:23:22.090]  So there's a very limited space of possibilities for where we can keep our antenna, so we have to keep it where it is.
[01:23:22.210 --> 01:23:27.250]  212-209-2950 is the number to call to help us keep it there.
[01:23:27.410 --> 01:23:34.330]  The website is give2wbai.org, and we promise not to use your money for fancy offices.
[01:23:35.330 --> 01:23:35.810]  Absolutely.
[01:23:36.130 --> 01:23:38.670]  We are not in fancy facilities here.
[01:23:39.390 --> 01:23:51.310]  We do have, we do, this place has been, it's been such a ride and such an adventure, even in the relatively short time I've been involved, because, in terms of this station's greater history.
[01:23:51.990 --> 01:24:00.150]  But we're still, like, as Mike said, if you can donate $10, that could repair some piece of equipment here that needs it.
[01:24:00.570 --> 01:24:08.950]  We've done things where we've had to, like, repair radio equipment while broadcasting through it, while doing our show, and, you know, reconnect things in various ways.
[01:24:09.010 --> 01:24:14.750]  And it's just all an example of how this place is really running on a shoestring.
[01:24:14.950 --> 01:24:23.910]  It's running on purely effort and love and blood, sweat, and tears of people who are donating their time, are donating their talents.
[01:24:24.170 --> 01:24:25.650]  None of us get paid for this show, certainly.
[01:24:27.750 --> 01:24:35.590]  But we all agree on one thing, which is that this place is important, this place is worth having, this place is worth working at, and keeping around.
[01:24:35.890 --> 01:24:43.090]  So, 212-209-2950, give to WBAI.org, and do what you can to keep us around.
[01:24:43.730 --> 01:24:45.050]  And we listen to you.
[01:24:45.230 --> 01:24:53.350]  We invite on every show, we invite our listeners to call in and to write us at 8oth at 2600.com.
[01:24:53.650 --> 01:24:58.570]  And we frequently read letters on the air, we discuss topics that people suggest to us.
[01:24:59.470 --> 01:25:07.050]  I don't know if we want to get on another news story, but we got a really fascinating email from our friend John Huntington about what the U.S.
[01:25:07.130 --> 01:25:08.810]  Postal Service is doing with our mail.
[01:25:09.070 --> 01:25:10.750]  Yeah, why don't you tell us a little bit about that, Bernie?
[01:25:11.470 --> 01:25:24.410]  Well, we've known John for years, and he's one of the key people that makes the HOPE conference happen, with his volunteer work, audio-video stuff, and people, students of his, he brings in to do it.
[01:25:24.410 --> 01:25:29.210]  But there's this program, I think Mike has enrolled in it too, just to test it out.
[01:25:29.610 --> 01:25:31.670]  Yeah, I did, but tell us what it is first.
[01:25:32.070 --> 01:25:34.110]  Well, basically, all the mail...
[01:25:34.110 --> 01:25:43.690]  We learned recently, last year or so, we learned that the post office is photographing all of our mail for surveillance purposes.
[01:25:45.050 --> 01:25:47.630]  And also for routing, but it used to be that...
[01:25:47.630 --> 01:25:51.090]  Not just for surveillance purposes, but I'm sure they don't mind the side effect.
[01:25:51.090 --> 01:25:51.470]  It's both.
[01:25:51.930 --> 01:26:01.450]  It used to be that the Fed, the postal inspectors, would have to be requested to do something called a mail cover, and then they would photograph all the mail going to a particular target.
[01:26:02.290 --> 01:26:03.830]  Now it's happening to everybody.
[01:26:04.470 --> 01:26:10.510]  And the weird thing is that the post office is now sharing those photographs of all your mail.
[01:26:10.710 --> 01:26:18.810]  You can sign up for free and get, like the morning before your mail is delivered, get photographs of all your mail.
[01:26:18.810 --> 01:26:32.430]  So you can see who's sending mail to you and the return address and all that, which presumably the post office is using optical character recognition to archive and put into a big database that can data mine who's sending mail to whom.
[01:26:32.570 --> 01:26:35.110]  But what were your experiences using this service, Mike?
[01:26:35.350 --> 01:26:48.710]  Yeah, so we were discussing it with John and amongst ourselves, and I learned that it's available in New York City and Long Island and parts of Connecticut, and I don't know.
[01:26:48.850 --> 01:26:53.250]  I guess it's not upstate New York, Westchester County, and so on.
[01:26:53.250 --> 01:26:53.430]  I can't.
[01:26:53.510 --> 01:26:54.310]  We don't... it's not available.
[01:26:54.470 --> 01:26:55.950]  It's just being... it's being tested right now.
[01:26:56.030 --> 01:26:59.010]  It's not available in Philadelphia yet, and unfortunately I tried to sign up for it.
[01:26:59.010 --> 01:27:00.630]  But what happened after you signed up for it?
[01:27:00.630 --> 01:27:04.690]  So I signed up over the weekend, and it was a holiday weekend, so there was no mail on Monday.
[01:27:04.790 --> 01:27:20.290]  But Tuesday morning, I was at work, and I got an email with an image of the letter I received that day, which was a fundraising letter from a politically sensitive organization, one that... Planned Parenthood.
[01:27:20.450 --> 01:27:26.570]  I'm not afraid to say I support them, but this is information that the government has now about my politics.
[01:27:29.230 --> 01:27:36.650]  And, you know, this is presumably information they've had about my politics for quite some time because they do send me quite a number of fundraising letters.
[01:27:36.890 --> 01:27:45.090]  But now I have access to that database as well, and they let me know that that letter would be waiting for me when I got home.
[01:27:45.690 --> 01:27:46.990]  And it was true.
[01:27:47.030 --> 01:27:47.810]  It was in my mailbox.
[01:27:49.670 --> 01:27:50.870]  Sorry, Bernie, you said?
[01:27:50.970 --> 01:27:51.510]  I'm sorry.
[01:27:51.590 --> 01:27:54.890]  Did you find that kind of spooky, looking at this picture of your mail that you hadn't gotten yet?
[01:27:54.890 --> 01:27:56.810]  I mean, it's pretty weird.
[01:27:57.070 --> 01:28:07.030]  I mean, I knew what would happen because we were discussing it on the list and with John, who got, I think, some less politically sensitive mail that he shared with us.
[01:28:07.230 --> 01:28:13.730]  But it's, you know, of course this technology exists, and I'm glad that I'm able to access it.
[01:28:14.030 --> 01:28:16.890]  If anyone should be accessing images of my mail, it should be me.
[01:28:17.070 --> 01:28:19.070]  But it's kind of weird.
[01:28:19.610 --> 01:28:20.290]  It is.
[01:28:20.450 --> 01:28:27.650]  I mean, the postal mail has long been thought of as this thing that's sort of, I guess, inviolate.
[01:28:28.050 --> 01:28:30.550]  Like, screwing with the mail is a federal offense.
[01:28:30.830 --> 01:28:40.350]  It's something that, you know, especially with those of us who live in areas where our mailboxes are locked and ostensibly we're the only ones that are able to get into them and see what we've got.
[01:28:41.690 --> 01:28:49.530]  It's a strange feeling to basically have something emailed to you that shows you, oh, yeah, your other people are looking at this too.
[01:28:49.650 --> 01:28:50.290]  And of course they are.
[01:28:50.290 --> 01:28:52.110]  We know they are because the mail gets to where it's going.
[01:28:52.370 --> 01:28:57.630]  But to have that info stored in a system, we have...
[01:28:57.630 --> 01:29:02.910]  We talk so much about, like, new forms of surveillance and new ways that sort of the powers that be are creeping.
[01:29:03.490 --> 01:29:12.730]  And so rarely does it happen where we get a side benefit from that, quote-unquote, which is access to now see what mail is waiting for you in your mailbox beforehand.
[01:29:14.090 --> 01:29:16.230]  So who has access to these...
[01:29:16.770 --> 01:29:23.490]  to all this information about who is sending us mail and from where and when?
[01:29:23.650 --> 01:29:25.290]  Who has access to these databases?
[01:29:26.130 --> 01:29:27.450]  I would like to know the answer.
[01:29:28.730 --> 01:29:29.410]  We don't know.
[01:29:29.490 --> 01:29:30.090]  I mean, the USPS...
[01:29:30.090 --> 01:29:37.430]  I looked on the USPS website, which is USPS.com, not Gov. But in any case, there's no privacy policy.
[01:29:37.770 --> 01:29:41.470]  When you sign up for this thing, they provide a link to a privacy policy.
[01:29:41.470 --> 01:29:44.230]  I didn't read it because, of course, why would you read it?
[01:29:45.430 --> 01:29:52.890]  There's a very common misconception about privacy policies that they're there to protect you, the person whose privacy might be invaded.
[01:29:53.050 --> 01:29:54.030]  That is not the case.
[01:29:54.190 --> 01:29:58.330]  They are there to protect the entity doing the invasion of privacy.
[01:29:58.530 --> 01:30:03.270]  So in my view, there's almost no point in reading them because it's not like a contract you can negotiate.
[01:30:03.490 --> 01:30:11.270]  It just outlines all the ways in which your privacy will be violated would be a better name for these sorts of policies, a privacy violation policy.
[01:30:12.070 --> 01:30:13.150]  But I didn't read it.
[01:30:13.370 --> 01:30:16.770]  If you really hunt around, I'm sure you'll be able to find it as well.
[01:30:17.710 --> 01:30:20.550]  But, you know, of course, the USPS has access to this data.
[01:30:20.770 --> 01:30:21.610]  That makes sense.
[01:30:21.730 --> 01:30:22.890]  They use it to deliver on mail.
[01:30:23.090 --> 01:30:28.830]  I'm sure they would not fight the way that Apple is fighting if the government asked for a copy of this data.
[01:30:29.470 --> 01:30:30.510]  And who knows?
[01:30:30.630 --> 01:30:31.670]  Who else has access to it?
[01:30:32.310 --> 01:30:38.670]  And how difficult do you think it would be for someone's USPS account?
[01:30:38.910 --> 01:30:45.010]  You just sign up for this free account and presumably you just need your email address and a password.
[01:30:45.010 --> 01:30:53.030]  How hard would it be for someone's account to be hacked by someone who wanted to spy on what mail they're receiving from whom and when?
[01:30:53.450 --> 01:30:54.390]  Yeah, I'm not sure.
[01:30:54.590 --> 01:30:57.290]  I had apparently already verified my...
[01:30:58.090 --> 01:31:07.370]  I already had a USPS account and I don't really know why that I had used to verify my email address and my postal address matching.
[01:31:07.990 --> 01:31:08.850]  So I don't know.
[01:31:09.010 --> 01:31:13.670]  So I was able to sign up instantly, but it did give me a thing like you're already all set.
[01:31:13.810 --> 01:31:17.070]  So presumably there's some other state you can be in where you're not already all set.
[01:31:17.230 --> 01:31:19.690]  And I don't know what kind of verification they do in that case.
[01:31:19.790 --> 01:31:20.010]  Right.
[01:31:20.110 --> 01:31:25.870]  I have a USPS account because that's what you use now if you move and want to forward your mail from one place to the other.
[01:31:27.210 --> 01:31:30.970]  So I have one from the last time I moved and the time I moved before that.
[01:31:31.450 --> 01:31:37.070]  And it's also useful if you want to order like postal supplies, packaging materials, whatever that they sell you.
[01:31:37.190 --> 01:31:39.050]  But yeah, so you might have...
[01:31:39.050 --> 01:31:44.610]  you might well have a USPS account if you don't know about it or remember that.
[01:31:45.150 --> 01:32:01.790]  So this would be a marketer's wet dream to have access to a database where your email address and your physical address and all the senders have mailed to you and when they're sending it to you and presumably what it's about because you can tell from looking at it that it's like a...
[01:32:01.790 --> 01:32:04.110]  maybe it's from a political organization or whatever.
[01:32:04.430 --> 01:32:18.250]  I mean, this is a lot of information about your personal life that the government is archiving and sharing not only with you now, which is kind of unique, but who knows what else they're sharing with.
[01:32:18.970 --> 01:32:25.590]  Well, I will send you, Bernie, the privacy policy and you can read it if you want and tell me what it says because I don't have that kind of time on my hands.
[01:32:25.590 --> 01:32:25.930]  We'll pause through it.
[01:32:26.390 --> 01:32:26.730]  Excellent.
[01:32:28.270 --> 01:32:33.350]  So there is a lot going on, but I think I would like to hear from some of our listeners.
[01:32:33.670 --> 01:32:38.510]  So we don't do this all the time during our fundraising specials, but I'd like to do it today.
[01:32:38.630 --> 01:32:39.830]  I'd like to try and take some phone calls.
[01:32:40.330 --> 01:32:43.650]  So if you would like to give us a call at...
[01:32:44.050 --> 01:32:49.970]  This is the on-air phone now, not the donation number, but this is 718-780-8888.
[01:32:50.570 --> 01:32:55.450]  And tell us what's on your mind and we'll see what we can do about that state of affairs.
[01:32:55.630 --> 01:33:00.350]  It would be super cool if what's on your mind was related to some of the issues we've been talking about tonight, but...
[01:33:00.350 --> 01:33:00.810]  Absolutely.
[01:33:01.590 --> 01:33:08.190]  You are listening to Off the Hook and we are on WBAI and we think this is a nice place that you should support.
[01:33:08.370 --> 01:33:17.710]  Go to give2wbai.org or call 212-209-2950 and see what you can do to help us stay on the air.
[01:33:18.290 --> 01:33:24.510]  If you'd like to speak with us right now, though, the number is 718-780-8888.
[01:33:25.970 --> 01:33:38.390]  While we're waiting for our listener calls, I noticed that at the New York Toy Show that, not that I want to advertise for Mattel Corporation, which used to make the gun stocks for M16 automatic rifles, by the way.
[01:33:39.990 --> 01:33:41.810]  I'm not sure what to do with that information.
[01:33:43.970 --> 01:33:45.250]  $300 3D printer.
[01:33:45.810 --> 01:33:46.650]  300 bucks.
[01:33:47.130 --> 01:33:48.850]  That's less than you pay for a lot of printers.
[01:33:48.850 --> 01:33:50.610]  But this will print 3D objects.
[01:33:51.150 --> 01:33:54.690]  And they're marketing it to kids or they're marketing it to parents of kids, presumably.
[01:33:55.970 --> 01:33:58.350]  And what do you think the ramifications of that are?
[01:33:59.350 --> 01:34:02.150]  I think, you know, I work in the field of 3D printing.
[01:34:02.350 --> 01:34:04.990]  I've done a lot of work in the field for multiple entities.
[01:34:05.090 --> 01:34:10.210]  And I think it's a neat idea because I think kids should have access to 3D printing technology.
[01:34:10.550 --> 01:34:19.630]  But at the same time, something done by Mattel, I'm curious as to how it's all going to work with the availability of files and what they can and can't use the machine to do.
[01:34:20.410 --> 01:34:28.030]  Because with sort of mass-marketed devices, you're starting to see things like DRM attempt to be introduced into the field of 3D printing.
[01:34:28.290 --> 01:34:30.050]  What is DRM, Rob?
[01:34:30.250 --> 01:34:32.410]  Digital rights management, which might...
[01:34:32.410 --> 01:34:42.490]  There have been companies who have tried to control like what brand of filament, which is the feedstock you print things out of, that you're allowed to use in a device or like control what files you're allowed to print on a device.
[01:34:42.670 --> 01:34:47.150]  So I don't know what Mattel's printer looks like in this comparison.
[01:34:47.270 --> 01:34:48.530]  But I'm curious.
[01:34:48.910 --> 01:34:56.870]  I know there are a lot of open source printers where if you want to get hold of something that's freely examinable and reproducible, you can take a look at what's out there.
[01:34:57.890 --> 01:35:00.050]  But I somehow doubt Mattel is among them.
[01:35:00.390 --> 01:35:01.490]  How's the switchboard looking like?
[01:35:01.610 --> 01:35:02.390]  We do have a call.
[01:35:02.590 --> 01:35:04.010]  Let's talk to this person.
[01:35:04.370 --> 01:35:04.790]  Okay, great.
[01:35:04.830 --> 01:35:06.550]  You know, as soon as I said that, we lost them.
[01:35:07.970 --> 01:35:09.090]  What did you say, Mike?
[01:35:09.270 --> 01:35:11.130]  I apologize to that caller.
[01:35:11.370 --> 01:35:14.610]  But if you want to be the next caller, you can do that.
[01:35:15.950 --> 01:35:17.730]  718-780-8888.
[01:35:17.990 --> 01:35:20.570]  And I'll try and be a little bit quicker on the button next time.
[01:35:21.050 --> 01:35:22.370]  We want to know what's on your mind.
[01:35:22.550 --> 01:35:23.470]  If you want to...
[01:35:23.470 --> 01:35:35.330]  If what's on your mind is a desire to help keep this show on the air, then the number to call for that is 212-209-2950 or give2wbai.org.
[01:35:35.870 --> 01:35:36.690]  Here is...
[01:35:36.690 --> 01:35:37.370]  Here's a phone call.
[01:35:37.610 --> 01:35:39.270]  Let's talk to this person.
[01:35:39.410 --> 01:35:40.170]  Hello, you're on the air.
[01:35:40.770 --> 01:35:42.370]  Thank you very much for answering the phone.
[01:35:43.210 --> 01:35:44.550]  I enjoy your show a lot.
[01:35:44.690 --> 01:35:46.750]  It's not a topic that I think about often.
[01:35:47.210 --> 01:35:55.430]  But what amazes me is that with the post office photographing each piece of mail that you get, you don't even bet an eyelash.
[01:35:55.710 --> 01:35:59.210]  It's amazing the extent of what they do to spy on us.
[01:35:59.510 --> 01:36:01.330]  And it's just considered to be okay.
[01:36:03.270 --> 01:36:04.590]  Yeah, I mean, I can't...
[01:36:04.590 --> 01:36:05.930]  Surprise was not really...
[01:36:05.930 --> 01:36:11.610]  I was surprised they gave me access to my own data, but surprise that the data existed didn't really occur to me.
[01:36:12.050 --> 01:36:12.450]  Yeah.
[01:36:12.670 --> 01:36:13.850]  But isn't that amazing?
[01:36:15.030 --> 01:36:15.830]  It is.
[01:36:15.930 --> 01:36:21.030]  It's sort of the way we've seen these things sort of creep into the public consciousness is just things that happen and I guess it's okay.
[01:36:21.650 --> 01:36:24.170]  But where did that permission come from?
[01:36:25.210 --> 01:36:33.730]  Yeah, it ostensibly came from us because the government is supposed to be a reflection of our own wants and needs and ideals, but in practice that doesn't always seem to be the case.
[01:36:35.230 --> 01:36:36.010]  Oh, thank you.
[01:36:36.070 --> 01:36:37.170]  It just surprises me.
[01:36:37.330 --> 01:36:39.030]  I mean, I'm not getting any mail anymore.
[01:36:40.970 --> 01:36:55.430]  You know, it's what Rob likes to call the boiling frog syndrome or analogy where we're becoming inured to all these surveillance technologies being used to spy on us.
[01:36:56.130 --> 01:36:58.490]  And sometimes we just take it for granted now.
[01:36:58.490 --> 01:36:58.870]  You're right.
[01:36:59.010 --> 01:37:05.830]  I think it's frightening that we just assume this is all happening and it's the way it is.
[01:37:06.290 --> 01:37:08.150]  It turns out, Bernie, this is not true.
[01:37:08.690 --> 01:37:11.170]  Even George Orwell could imagine something like this.
[01:37:11.350 --> 01:37:14.090]  I mean, then you think, what else is happening?
[01:37:14.370 --> 01:37:15.770]  You know, that's what you know about.
[01:37:16.010 --> 01:37:17.050]  You found out about it.
[01:37:17.170 --> 01:37:18.310]  What don't you know about it?
[01:37:18.370 --> 01:37:20.790]  What is going to happen that you don't know about now?
[01:37:21.070 --> 01:37:21.470]  Absolutely.
[01:37:21.490 --> 01:37:27.870]  If this is the small sliver of what's going on that we are allowed access to, you can imagine what there is beyond that.
[01:37:27.870 --> 01:37:34.790]  The other thing is, I was talking to someone the other day and they were telling me how Obama was a progressive and they were listing all the reasons why.
[01:37:35.150 --> 01:37:46.990]  And what's not discussed at all is how he deals with whistleblowers and how any journalist that does divulge information they don't want divulged is prosecuted.
[01:37:47.170 --> 01:37:52.890]  And I think the information that we get now is not as open-minded as we used to.
[01:37:53.090 --> 01:37:56.570]  And one other comment, we listen to democracy now for a long time.
[01:37:56.570 --> 01:38:01.570]  And in the past, Amy Goodman had more in-depth studies about things that she does now.
[01:38:01.810 --> 01:38:08.830]  And I think some of that's related to the way journalists are treated by the government and they don't come forward with information like they used to.
[01:38:10.050 --> 01:38:10.950]  That's certainly interesting.
[01:38:11.110 --> 01:38:11.990]  Thank you very much for that call.
[01:38:12.530 --> 01:38:13.410]  Okay, thank you.
[01:38:14.550 --> 01:38:24.470]  I don't know that we have strong opinions on other programs, but by the way, I want to clarify to both of you, the thing about the frogs is not too true for frogs.
[01:38:24.570 --> 01:38:39.870]  It may or may not be true for people privacy rights, but if you put a frog in water, apparently scientists, you can get funding to do this, and we can't afford to read the article about it, but if you stick a frog in boiling water or in water and heat it up,
[01:38:39.910 --> 01:38:42.790]  the frog will eventually realize, hey, it's too hot in here and jump out.
[01:38:43.530 --> 01:38:48.170]  And by the way, there are scientific papers written about that, and that is a myth.
[01:38:48.330 --> 01:38:49.250]  There is no such thing.
[01:38:49.450 --> 01:39:04.810]  It's a compelling thought that, well, I'm not compelled by the thought that, I'm repulsed by the thought that somebody would boil a frog, but at the same time, it's been, they've actually tested this and frogs don't just sit there and get boiled after the,
[01:39:04.810 --> 01:39:06.250]  you slowly turn temperature up.
[01:39:06.370 --> 01:39:08.450]  But it's something that we can, it's kind of like lemmings.
[01:39:08.590 --> 01:39:13.850]  We just sort of thought it was, we believed it was true, just like we used to believe we had privacy and now we don't.
[01:39:14.190 --> 01:39:17.050]  If Schrodinger really put a cat in a box, he'd just end up with an angry cat.
[01:39:17.550 --> 01:39:21.450]  All right, we got a lot of people calling us who want to give us their opinions.
[01:39:21.850 --> 01:39:23.690]  So let's talk to this listener.
[01:39:23.830 --> 01:39:24.730]  Good evening, you're on the air.
[01:39:25.690 --> 01:39:27.410]  That's not a listener, that's a tone.
[01:39:28.110 --> 01:39:29.470]  It sounded like a TDD.
[01:39:29.730 --> 01:39:31.170]  Do we have a TDD there in the studio?
[01:39:31.470 --> 01:39:35.170]  No, we have not that kind of equipment, alas.
[01:39:35.590 --> 01:39:39.050]  But we do have another blinking light and maybe this listener is not a tone.
[01:39:39.150 --> 01:39:39.330]  Hello.
[01:39:39.950 --> 01:39:40.350]  Hello.
[01:39:40.670 --> 01:39:42.770]  The phone company has had the ability
[01:39:45.910 --> 01:39:55.250]  to watch everyone's mail for a very long time because they use computers to read the addresses and they route the mail.
[01:39:55.390 --> 01:39:55.990]  Yes, indeed.
[01:39:56.050 --> 01:40:04.170]  And they route the mail to bins which go to the trucks which come to the offices automatically.
[01:40:04.350 --> 01:40:10.790]  Everything is automatically boxed and then the carrier puts it, carries it on his route.
[01:40:11.230 --> 01:40:24.390]  So if I told the machine to look at my mail, send it to an office in Utah, steam it open, read it, put it back in the envelope and then put it back in the system, no one would know.
[01:40:25.370 --> 01:40:29.850]  To the workers, I was one of them, the mail was sacrosanct.
[01:40:30.250 --> 01:40:31.430]  But we would never know.
[01:40:31.610 --> 01:40:32.490]  We would never have known.
[01:40:32.690 --> 01:40:35.390]  And the computers that do all the work are privatized.
[01:40:36.290 --> 01:40:37.170]  They're privatized.
[01:40:37.510 --> 01:40:37.930]  Oh, yeah.
[01:40:38.650 --> 01:40:46.890]  All the computer equipment, at least the stuff that I saw that was in this century was private.
[01:40:47.370 --> 01:40:47.810]  It was not.
[01:40:48.490 --> 01:40:48.750]  Not...
[01:40:48.750 --> 01:40:54.390]  Hey, since you worked for the USPS, what familiarity did you have with what was called the mail cover program?
[01:40:55.070 --> 01:40:55.830]  Didn't know...
[01:40:55.830 --> 01:40:56.910]  I didn't know that one existed.
[01:40:56.910 --> 01:41:04.810]  I figured it did and I could see the mechanism right in front of me that would have done the work and no one would have been the wiser, but I had no knowledge of it.
[01:41:05.250 --> 01:41:05.630]  Wow.
[01:41:05.730 --> 01:41:09.230]  Now, you were talking about reading the contents of what's inside the envelopes.
[01:41:09.410 --> 01:41:12.490]  To read the contents, you'd have to steam the envelope open.
[01:41:12.550 --> 01:41:13.990]  I mean, unless they've got...
[01:41:13.990 --> 01:41:17.230]  Unless Uberman is there to read the...
[01:41:17.230 --> 01:41:19.330]  to look through the envelope with his X-ray vision.
[01:41:19.830 --> 01:41:25.070]  We're not saying that's going on, although it wouldn't surprise me if they're doing that for selected targets.
[01:41:25.370 --> 01:41:25.730]  Why not?
[01:41:25.810 --> 01:41:27.690]  They could do it to anyone and no one would be the wiser.
[01:41:28.130 --> 01:41:29.550]  You've got three days.
[01:41:29.930 --> 01:41:30.470]  Scary thought.
[01:41:30.650 --> 01:41:34.190]  Well, don't we have those like special like wax seals we could put on the envelope?
[01:41:34.650 --> 01:41:35.450]  I suppose.
[01:41:36.530 --> 01:41:40.290]  There were all the joke stories of the people who had...
[01:41:40.290 --> 01:41:44.450]  They could always tell when the banks were doing...
[01:41:45.090 --> 01:41:46.390]  You know, trying to get...
[01:41:46.390 --> 01:41:50.230]  Sending out little premiums to get people because they would rip the...
[01:41:50.230 --> 01:41:57.090]  They'd put the pen in the bottom of an envelope, a regular type envelope, and when it goes through the sorting machine, it has to go around corners and in belts and things.
[01:41:57.490 --> 01:42:02.890]  And it would tear through the envelope and the mail behind it would get ground up, everything would get all chewed up.
[01:42:05.270 --> 01:42:05.990]  And so...
[01:42:06.550 --> 01:42:12.110]  And there was the story of someone who had sent a sample through the mail and that broke open and they made the supervisor clean it.
[01:42:13.890 --> 01:42:15.610]  I'm imagining what this is a sample of.
[01:42:15.810 --> 01:42:16.610]  Yes, exactly.
[01:42:16.730 --> 01:42:16.930]  Okay.
[01:42:17.090 --> 01:42:26.710]  And the point I'm getting at, though, is that none of us would have been able to tell you yes or no that it was happening, but if the mechanism exists, it's used.
[01:42:27.090 --> 01:42:27.670]  You're right.
[01:42:27.870 --> 01:42:30.470]  Presumably you would have noticed if all the mail was being opened.
[01:42:30.610 --> 01:42:33.070]  That would be a large enough scale project that someone would see it.
[01:42:33.470 --> 01:42:35.790]  But certainly targeted surveillance, yeah.
[01:42:35.790 --> 01:42:36.310]  You don't understand.
[01:42:36.470 --> 01:42:38.070]  There's one piece, one kind of mail.
[01:42:38.150 --> 01:42:41.030]  We weren't allowed to name it by its popular name.
[01:42:41.230 --> 01:42:43.230]  So some of the guys called it J-mail.
[01:42:43.230 --> 01:42:54.810]  mail, but the contract mail, which you could always tell because it would come at like 50,000 of the same envelope, you know, the same kind of envelope.
[01:42:54.970 --> 01:42:55.970]  I worked in repair.
[01:42:56.250 --> 01:43:01.510]  You know, some of my other colleagues were the mail handlers.
[01:43:01.750 --> 01:43:05.130]  They tended to do the sorting at night and we did the maintenance during the day.
[01:43:06.090 --> 01:43:09.370]  But you could always tell when it was contract mail because it all looked alike.
[01:43:09.370 --> 01:43:11.070]  I'll bet you that it never got steamed open.
[01:43:11.950 --> 01:43:12.990]  Maybe that's your mail.
[01:43:13.230 --> 01:43:14.150]  We can say it on the show.
[01:43:14.310 --> 01:43:14.650]  It's junk mail.
[01:43:15.570 --> 01:43:15.970]  Yes.
[01:43:16.190 --> 01:43:18.170]  It's like the predecessor to spam.
[01:43:18.710 --> 01:43:20.130]  Shame, shame on you.
[01:43:20.330 --> 01:43:21.230]  Don't use that word.
[01:43:22.610 --> 01:43:23.010]  Uh-oh.
[01:43:23.390 --> 01:43:24.330]  Thank you for calling us.
[01:43:24.450 --> 01:43:25.410]  We have great callers.
[01:43:25.610 --> 01:43:25.970]  Yes, indeed.
[01:43:26.150 --> 01:43:27.030]  Thank you very much for that call.
[01:43:27.430 --> 01:43:27.730]  Bye-bye.
[01:43:28.130 --> 01:43:28.350]  Thanks.
[01:43:29.130 --> 01:43:30.510]  Let's try this caller.
[01:43:30.830 --> 01:43:31.370]  Good evening.
[01:43:31.490 --> 01:43:32.030]  You're on the air.
[01:43:33.770 --> 01:43:34.170]  Hello?
[01:43:34.270 --> 01:43:34.450]  Hello.
[01:43:34.710 --> 01:43:34.930]  Hi.
[01:43:36.170 --> 01:43:36.910]  Oh, excellent.
[01:43:37.010 --> 01:43:37.730]  My headset's working?
[01:43:38.110 --> 01:43:38.510]  Yes.
[01:43:39.050 --> 01:43:39.450]  Fantastic.
[01:43:39.810 --> 01:43:42.750]  Oh, I was just calling in regard to the Apple encryption topic.
[01:43:42.750 --> 01:43:43.990]  People we were chatting about earlier?
[01:43:44.170 --> 01:43:46.090]  Or you guys were chatting about what everybody was listening to?
[01:43:46.250 --> 01:43:48.010]  Lots of people all around the world were chatting.
[01:43:48.170 --> 01:43:48.930]  But what were you saying?
[01:43:50.210 --> 01:43:57.590]  I want to definitely say that I don't support putting in today's pass-through for encryption for tomorrow's side door for anything.
[01:43:59.210 --> 01:44:22.030]  However, it seems like the most common call-to-arms you're going to have from people supporting the decryption of one device leading into many more is likely going to be that they'll say, oh, is there a network of people that this deceased iPhone user with encryption was using so that we can secure our freedoms or some mantra madness like that?
[01:44:22.170 --> 01:44:22.430]  Yeah.
[01:44:22.610 --> 01:44:25.050]  I was just interested how you felt on that?
[01:44:25.350 --> 01:44:26.230]  Yeah, no, absolutely.
[01:44:26.350 --> 01:44:53.930]  We've seen so many bad laws and destructive things get pushed through with the specter of easy-to-hate things like the quote-unquote terrorism label or think of the children or, you know, there are these very easy, very pat, very go-to calls that those in power use to rally everyone in favor of whatever the next terrible thing they want to do is because who wants to say they're in favor of letting
[01:44:53.930 --> 01:45:02.630]  terrorists have private communications or who wants to say they're in favor of leaving children vulnerable to certain imaginary phantoms and goblins?
[01:45:02.830 --> 01:45:04.650]  So, yeah, that's always...
[01:45:04.650 --> 01:45:10.410]  We've seen that so many times where that's the way that people put terrible things through and then we're all stuck with the result.
[01:45:12.210 --> 01:45:12.570]  Totally.
[01:45:12.770 --> 01:45:16.250]  You never know if the Tooth Fairy is going to go rogue or what you've got to deal with there.
[01:45:17.090 --> 01:45:22.350]  Well, the Tooth Fairy I think needs an extra eye kept on her but that's a subject for another program.
[01:45:22.710 --> 01:45:23.950]  But thank you very much for that caller.
[01:45:24.570 --> 01:45:25.090]  Hey, thank you.
[01:45:27.590 --> 01:45:44.230]  We don't have any more blinking lights but we had a whole bunch before so if you were one of the ones who we didn't get to or you would like to become one of the ones who we do get to 718-780-8888 if you would like to pledge 212-209-2950 to keep us on the air.
[01:45:44.350 --> 01:45:45.850]  Keep us taking your phone calls on the air.
[01:45:45.990 --> 01:45:48.090]  So few programs are able to do that.
[01:45:48.550 --> 01:45:48.910]  Yes, indeed.
[01:45:49.110 --> 01:45:51.810]  And just to reiterate we have some thank you gifts.
[01:45:51.970 --> 01:46:08.150]  For $50, you can get either the Hope DVD set which is over 100 DVDs from Hope X or you can get a historical telephone painting that's an acrylic painting by myself or for a pledge of $75 you can get all those Hope Talks on a USB thumb drive.
[01:46:09.210 --> 01:46:15.290]  But you're welcome to pledge any amount that you feel able to and help keep us doing what we're doing.
[01:46:15.370 --> 01:46:19.530]  212-209-2950 or give to WBAI.org.
[01:46:20.450 --> 01:46:23.450]  I feel that really worked.
[01:46:23.670 --> 01:46:29.910]  I'm almost ready to learn how many phone lines we have because we have so many blinking right now but let's talk to this person.
[01:46:30.030 --> 01:46:30.750]  Hello, you're on the air.
[01:46:32.370 --> 01:46:32.850]  Hello?
[01:46:33.530 --> 01:46:33.910]  Hi.
[01:46:34.070 --> 01:46:35.130]  Hi, what's on your mind?
[01:46:36.070 --> 01:47:10.130]  Oh, I just wanted to let you know that I am just before I flipped on you guys I had just finished listening to an episode of Project Censored with featuring Elliot Cohen who was talking about he was talking about the technology of oppression and he explores the many ways the federal agencies are spying on Americans and they've spoken at length about DARPA and Echelon and all kinds of draconian
[01:47:10.130 --> 01:47:18.990]  measures that are just completely taking over any fantasy ...of privacy that we may have.
[01:47:19.330 --> 01:47:25.470]  So in case anyone isn't paranoid enough after they listen to your program, go listen to Elliot Cohen in Project Censored.
[01:47:26.430 --> 01:47:28.870]  That should do us all well for the evening.
[01:47:29.210 --> 01:47:31.990]  It must have been a very long program if they were able to get to all the ways.
[01:47:33.930 --> 01:47:34.330]  Sorry?
[01:47:35.110 --> 01:47:41.590]  I was saying, if they were able to give a complete list of all the spying programs, it would have been a very long episode.
[01:47:41.690 --> 01:47:41.810]  Oh, yeah.
[01:47:41.890 --> 01:47:42.970]  No, it wasn't that long.
[01:47:43.090 --> 01:47:45.710]  It was just enough to really set you on edge.
[01:47:45.710 --> 01:47:47.030]  But thanks.
[01:47:47.270 --> 01:47:48.130]  That's my contribution.
[01:47:48.450 --> 01:47:48.990]  Thank you very much.
[01:47:49.070 --> 01:47:50.850]  More info is always better to have out there.
[01:47:51.310 --> 01:47:51.570]  All right.
[01:47:51.730 --> 01:47:52.430]  Thanks for the call.
[01:47:53.170 --> 01:47:55.250]  Let's talk to this person.
[01:47:55.410 --> 01:47:55.750]  Good evening.
[01:47:55.890 --> 01:47:56.330]  You're on the air.
[01:47:57.710 --> 01:47:58.510]  Another tone.
[01:47:58.990 --> 01:48:00.630]  That was frequency shift keying.
[01:48:01.210 --> 01:48:03.970]  So it sounds like a TDD is trying to call us.
[01:48:04.030 --> 01:48:04.350]  Friend of yours?
[01:48:05.230 --> 01:48:06.550]  We don't have a TDD.
[01:48:06.830 --> 01:48:09.090]  So if you're the TDD, then we're sorry.
[01:48:09.150 --> 01:48:10.470]  Well, maybe I'll have an extra one.
[01:48:10.470 --> 01:48:12.930]  Maybe I'll donate it to the station because I think that'd be a cool thing.
[01:48:12.930 --> 01:48:16.010]  Of course, people would have to hear the tones over the air.
[01:48:16.190 --> 01:48:16.830]  It'd be kind of annoying.
[01:48:17.070 --> 01:48:22.470]  Of course, if you would like to communicate with us by text, you can send us email anytime, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:48:22.830 --> 01:48:24.930]  But maybe this will be a voice.
[01:48:25.570 --> 01:48:26.210]  Good evening.
[01:48:26.350 --> 01:48:26.850]  You're on the air.
[01:48:27.450 --> 01:48:28.150]  Email anytime.
[01:48:28.270 --> 01:48:28.470]  Yeah.
[01:48:28.870 --> 01:48:29.190]  Here.
[01:48:29.390 --> 01:48:29.930]  Hold on a second.
[01:48:30.990 --> 01:48:31.830]  Am I on air?
[01:48:32.010 --> 01:48:32.390]  You are.
[01:48:32.550 --> 01:48:33.310]  What's on your mind?
[01:48:33.570 --> 01:48:34.190]  Oh, sir.
[01:48:35.590 --> 01:48:37.590]  I got the radio on, so let me...
[01:48:38.650 --> 01:48:41.210]  I just had a couple of questions for you guys.
[01:48:44.070 --> 01:48:44.950]  One is...
[01:48:44.950 --> 01:48:47.290]  Actually, I have a whole list of questions.
[01:48:47.490 --> 01:48:59.510]  But on this Apple, on the iPhone, and getting the backdoor made for that, in the back of my mind, you know what I believe in?
[01:48:59.630 --> 01:49:00.570]  Tell me if I'm crazy.
[01:49:00.570 --> 01:49:01.770]  But I don't...
[01:49:01.770 --> 01:49:03.550]  I believe they've always had a backdoor.
[01:49:03.770 --> 01:49:05.450]  I believe they always can get in that.
[01:49:05.650 --> 01:49:14.230]  And this is all just a big charade to make it look like, to their customers, your privacy and your information safe with us.
[01:49:15.830 --> 01:49:16.950]  It's an interesting idea.
[01:49:17.170 --> 01:49:35.770]  Although, with things like what's known as end-to-end encryption, if all is working well and you're working with end-to-end encryption, which is what's used at most, like HTTPS websites, some of them most... some services that you would use, ostensibly,
[01:49:35.770 --> 01:49:41.350]  that would mean that not even the company who's transmitting the data can see what it is.
[01:49:41.490 --> 01:49:48.370]  Just the user and the person or entity that they're communicating with on each end could see the material.
[01:49:49.430 --> 01:49:57.670]  I mean, so, to your point, I think the government genuinely wants Apple to do this because it will give them a capability they did not previously had.
[01:49:58.530 --> 01:50:03.090]  I'm sure there are all kinds of other ways that all kinds of other entities are spying on all kinds of other people.
[01:50:03.310 --> 01:50:07.610]  But I don't think the government would go to this trouble to make Apple look good.
[01:50:09.070 --> 01:50:10.770]  You know, to make their encryption look good.
[01:50:11.270 --> 01:50:11.970]  Maybe I'm wrong.
[01:50:12.070 --> 01:50:12.430]  I don't know.
[01:50:13.190 --> 01:50:23.670]  Well, I think if there's a collusion, if there's collusion going on, then it would be how to make the people that they want to spy on feel comfortable using Apple.
[01:50:24.290 --> 01:50:27.750]  That there's a safe venue for them, you know?
[01:50:28.090 --> 01:50:30.310]  And I... you know something?
[01:50:30.610 --> 01:50:42.590]  The more I talk about it, the more I think about it, I don't think there's a chance in hell that Apple doesn't have access to everything they need that they want or goes through their equipment.
[01:50:43.030 --> 01:50:45.910]  I think they have complete, total control over it.
[01:50:46.230 --> 01:50:48.290]  I think I'd be an idiot not to believe that.
[01:50:48.450 --> 01:50:50.770]  And I've already been hacked on my iPhone.
[01:50:50.910 --> 01:50:54.490]  Anybody who says iPhone's a safe phone is full of it, you know?
[01:50:55.790 --> 01:50:57.150]  So, that's all I've got to say.
[01:50:57.570 --> 01:50:57.830]  All right.
[01:50:58.010 --> 01:50:59.630]  Well, thanks for... thanks for the call.
[01:51:00.550 --> 01:51:00.950]  Okay.
[01:51:01.210 --> 01:51:01.390]  Bye.
[01:51:03.010 --> 01:51:04.750]  Let's take this call.
[01:51:04.990 --> 01:51:05.470]  Good evening.
[01:51:05.650 --> 01:51:06.170]  You're on the air.
[01:51:08.070 --> 01:51:08.470]  Hello?
[01:51:09.210 --> 01:51:09.610]  Hello.
[01:51:09.670 --> 01:51:10.070]  How are you doing?
[01:51:10.270 --> 01:51:10.390]  Good.
[01:51:10.510 --> 01:51:10.790]  How are you?
[01:51:11.790 --> 01:51:12.070]  All right.
[01:51:12.550 --> 01:51:23.010]  So, if they're reading your mail, and I've seen some of the letters that we have all messed up, where's the freedom?
[01:51:23.230 --> 01:51:28.630]  Where's the freedom that these politicians and everybody's talking about, so-called democracy and all that?
[01:51:28.970 --> 01:51:32.170]  I mean, nobody cares that somebody's reading your mail?
[01:51:34.010 --> 01:51:35.350]  It's an interesting question.
[01:51:35.750 --> 01:51:46.670]  Yeah, as we've mentioned, the government is supposed to be the ones working for us, but if they're doing things that are not in our best interests, why is this allowed to happen, and what do we do about it?
[01:51:46.970 --> 01:51:52.310]  And it's definitely the sort of issues we try and address on this program and on this station.
[01:51:52.310 --> 01:52:03.350]  And the caller mentioned freedom, but there is freedom, there's democracy, there's privacy, and there's anonymity.
[01:52:03.350 --> 01:52:04.770]  All these are different things.
[01:52:05.030 --> 01:52:10.690]  There may be some overlap, and there's definitely interwoven.
[01:52:10.910 --> 01:52:22.930]  But that particular program, I think, violated our anonymity and our privacy, this USPS sort of universal mail cover program.
[01:52:22.950 --> 01:52:24.890]  Because in the past, they didn't archive all this stuff.
[01:52:25.390 --> 01:52:27.910]  Your mail would get to you, but they didn't have to store it.
[01:52:27.910 --> 01:52:30.350]  But now they're storing it all and sharing it with who knows who.
[01:52:30.970 --> 01:52:31.710]  Yes, indeed.
[01:52:31.890 --> 01:52:37.710]  So that means everybody is in this police state.
[01:52:38.130 --> 01:52:41.930]  I mean, I just saw the documentary on the Panthers the other night.
[01:52:42.050 --> 01:52:44.350]  I mean, this hasn't stopped.
[01:52:45.770 --> 01:52:48.330]  I mean, we ought to bring it up on another level.
[01:52:49.110 --> 01:52:56.850]  I mean, either we're human beings or those people who are on the so-called elite people, they're not human beings.
[01:52:56.850 --> 01:53:06.410]  And they don't care about the human beings because they wouldn't have what's going on in Michigan and about 20 other cities that are poisoning the water.
[01:53:06.790 --> 01:53:08.570]  And nobody can say anything about it?
[01:53:08.950 --> 01:53:11.170]  Well, you can try to fight back all you can.
[01:53:11.310 --> 01:53:25.650]  I have a friend who always mails me sensitive material, or frequently mails me sensitive material, and he always puts a different address, a return address on it, like from the ACLU of some state or whatever.
[01:53:25.650 --> 01:53:27.150]  So I think that was kind of clever.
[01:53:27.270 --> 01:53:32.690]  He's been doing this for years before it was public knowledge that the government surveilled all of our mail.
[01:53:33.070 --> 01:53:34.530]  But I thought that's pretty clever.
[01:53:34.630 --> 01:53:45.490]  So if you want to mail something to somebody, you don't want it to be known to the government that you sent it to that person, put a different return address on it, and they'll still probably get it, but the government won't know that you sent it to them.
[01:53:46.310 --> 01:53:46.670]  Indeed.
[01:53:47.070 --> 01:53:49.270]  Well, this has all given us a whole lot to think about.
[01:53:49.490 --> 01:53:57.910]  One last time, give to WBAI.org or 212-209-2950 to support this show, support this station, keep us doing what we're doing.
[01:53:59.050 --> 01:54:09.730]  We want to thank the excellent, insightful callers that we had on the air, but we also want to encourage you to call the other number, 212-209-2950, and let us keep putting you on the air.
[01:54:10.350 --> 01:54:10.970]  Yes, indeed.
[01:54:11.790 --> 01:54:17.930]  So thank you very much to everyone who's shown their support and who's called in and who's made their donations.
[01:54:18.350 --> 01:54:20.890]  Everyone else who's still on the fence, go and do that thing.
[01:54:22.770 --> 01:54:25.450]  Send us an email, OTH at 2600.com.
[01:54:25.870 --> 01:54:29.690]  Stay tuned for more of this station and what we have to offer.
[01:54:31.010 --> 01:54:34.190]  For Off the Hook, for WBAI, for Apps and Friends, this has been Rob T.
[01:54:34.330 --> 01:54:34.630]  Firefly.
[01:54:34.810 --> 01:54:35.910]  Thank you very much for joining us.
[01:54:36.090 --> 01:54:36.550]  Have a good night.
[01:57:08.940 --> 01:57:11.180]  We'll see you next time.