[00:00.280 --> 00:04.600]  Live in the studio with your hosts, Baby K and OP.
[00:05.120 --> 00:08.140]  That's Musical Chairs featuring The Sweet Spot.
[00:08.460 --> 00:11.400]  Every third Thursday of the month from 10pm to midnight.
[00:11.900 --> 00:15.720]  Only on WBAI 99.5 FM.
[00:16.020 --> 00:18.800]  Streaming online at WBAI.org.
[00:19.380 --> 00:21.860]  Listener-sponsored Community Radio.
[00:32.140 --> 00:35.740]  And you're listening to Radio Station WBAI New York.
[00:36.040 --> 00:36.980]  It's 7 o'clock.
[00:37.360 --> 00:40.880]  And that means, at least for this week, that it's time for Off the Hook.
[00:44.540 --> 00:45.460]  You're a witness, Reggie.
[00:45.540 --> 00:45.740]  You see?
[00:45.820 --> 00:46.500]  I pressed the button.
[00:46.580 --> 00:47.500]  I pressed the button.
[00:47.640 --> 00:48.460]  Oh, you did that, Kyle?
[00:49.000 --> 00:51.540]  Okay, let's just start over again.
[00:51.780 --> 00:52.620]  We can do this.
[00:52.940 --> 00:53.700]  Self-walk shaving.
[00:54.020 --> 00:54.580]  That sounds terrible.
[00:54.600 --> 00:56.200]  Now I can't make a call.
[00:57.120 --> 00:58.640]  We couldn't get worse.
[01:00.140 --> 01:02.200]  Let's move out of the way so I can get to the button again.
[01:02.220 --> 01:03.180]  I pressed that.
[01:03.300 --> 01:03.840]  I pressed that.
[01:03.920 --> 01:05.300]  Let's go to the top of the hour.
[01:05.480 --> 01:06.260]  Okay, we're going to...
[01:06.260 --> 01:07.120]  We'll edit that out.
[01:07.240 --> 01:07.420]  All right.
[01:08.560 --> 01:08.840]  Start?
[01:09.040 --> 01:10.000]  It's 7 o'clock.
[01:10.260 --> 01:11.680]  I'll press the button if you don't mind.
[01:12.180 --> 01:19.720]  It's 7 o'clock, and you are listening to WBAI New York, which means, at least for this week, it's time for Off the Hook.
[01:21.160 --> 01:21.780]  That's smooth.
[01:25.370 --> 01:37.330]  The telephone keeps ringing So I ripped it off the wall I cut myself while shaving Now I can't make a call We couldn't get much
[01:40.490 --> 01:46.870]  From Billy Bump But the best is back to worst I hope that's understood From Billy Bump
[03:09.500 --> 03:13.740]  Okay, that's how you intro a radio show for people who are taking notes.
[03:14.080 --> 03:15.320]  This is Off The Hook.
[03:15.680 --> 03:17.000]  I'm Andy Goldstein here with you.
[03:17.240 --> 03:18.900]  Joined tonight by Kyle.
[03:19.400 --> 03:20.230]  Hello, hackers.
[03:21.230 --> 03:22.060]  Jim, how you doing?
[03:22.240 --> 03:22.460]  Hello.
[03:23.300 --> 03:29.400]  And Bernie S., if I can find the right button here, I think you're over there.
[03:29.820 --> 03:30.420]  Are you there?
[03:31.180 --> 03:31.620]  Bernie?
[03:32.360 --> 03:33.500]  No, he's not.
[03:33.500 --> 03:35.680]  You see, this is what I was afraid was going to happen.
[03:36.660 --> 03:38.020]  I'm pressing the right buttons.
[03:38.200 --> 03:39.240]  All the things are up.
[03:39.380 --> 03:41.200]  I bet he is there, but he, like, stepped away or something.
[03:41.320 --> 03:42.420]  Bernie, are you there?
[03:42.920 --> 03:43.840]  No, he's not there.
[03:43.920 --> 03:44.420]  He's not there.
[03:44.980 --> 03:46.720]  I don't know what the problem is.
[03:46.740 --> 03:47.600]  We don't have Rob tonight.
[03:47.740 --> 03:48.380]  Rob is sick.
[03:50.020 --> 03:55.380]  And we got him on the phone, or Reggie got him on the phone, or on Skype, because we don't have phones.
[03:57.160 --> 03:58.880]  But I don't see him here.
[04:00.120 --> 04:01.740]  And I was afraid this might happen.
[04:02.300 --> 04:03.220]  And he is connected.
[04:03.440 --> 04:04.160]  He is connected.
[04:04.160 --> 04:07.360]  And I see this button here.
[04:08.300 --> 04:12.360]  If someone can get Reggie, please, we can get Bernie on the phone.
[04:12.600 --> 04:14.300]  Kyle, can you please get Reggie?
[04:14.380 --> 04:14.600]  Thank you.
[04:15.460 --> 04:16.740]  Oh, now I'm hearing beeps.
[04:18.060 --> 04:18.780]  What does that mean?
[04:19.590 --> 04:20.040]  Good question.
[04:20.590 --> 04:21.880]  Like I said, I think he's there.
[04:22.020 --> 04:22.660]  He's just not there.
[04:22.680 --> 04:23.590]  Bernie, are you there?
[04:23.680 --> 04:25.090]  And that's not talking, being a wise guy?
[04:25.090 --> 04:26.000]  He's going to get popcorn.
[04:26.000 --> 04:27.090]  Message length maximum.
[04:27.470 --> 04:30.040]  If you're satisfied with the message, press 1.
[04:30.210 --> 04:32.040]  To listen to your message, press 2.
[04:32.480 --> 04:34.660]  To erase and re-record, press 3.
[04:34.900 --> 04:35.860]  This is what happened.
[04:36.360 --> 04:41.260]  Reggie called him and didn't listen to see if he actually answered the damn phone.
[04:41.500 --> 04:44.380]  We've been leaving a voicemail message for the past five minutes.
[04:45.000 --> 04:48.350]  And I don't... Okay, I'm just going to hit the dial button again, I guess.
[04:49.970 --> 04:50.880]  Hopefully this works.
[04:51.120 --> 04:53.000]  You know, he didn't pick up the phone, Reggie.
[04:53.000 --> 04:55.970]  That was voice... We were leaving a long voicemail for Bernie.
[04:56.100 --> 04:57.900]  That's why he's not... He's not talking to us.
[04:58.140 --> 05:00.420]  I'm going to hit the call phone button.
[05:00.730 --> 05:01.060]  Okay.
[05:01.260 --> 05:05.160]  I'm so glad this show is on tape because, boy, this would sound terrible if it was live.
[05:06.360 --> 05:08.180]  Okay, that's his phone ringing, supposedly.
[05:08.350 --> 05:09.320]  Maybe he'll pick up this time.
[05:10.300 --> 05:11.730]  It's the comedy of errors, isn't it?
[05:11.940 --> 05:14.240]  We should... We should start over a third time.
[05:15.180 --> 05:15.500]  Hello?
[05:15.920 --> 05:17.420]  Bernie, are you going to pick up this time?
[05:17.880 --> 05:21.440]  I have picked up, and I tried to pick up before, but I heard nothing but silence.
[05:21.440 --> 05:24.620]  So I hung up and hoped that somebody would call me back.
[05:24.740 --> 05:28.920]  You're going to get a five-minute-long voicemail that apparently is us thinking that you're there.
[05:29.480 --> 05:37.400]  I was listening online to the comic tragedy, and I'm sorry that you don't have an actual phone line.
[05:37.580 --> 05:46.100]  I mean, why would a community radio station need a phone line for the community to be able to connect with a radio station?
[05:46.140 --> 05:47.380]  I mean, that's just a silly idea.
[05:47.500 --> 05:49.860]  How else are people going to complain about things?
[05:50.510 --> 05:51.780]  Well, we'll find a way.
[05:51.900 --> 05:52.620]  Don't worry about that.
[05:53.520 --> 05:54.920]  Okay, well, here we are.
[05:55.220 --> 05:58.800]  We have a special guest who's coming back upstairs.
[05:59.040 --> 05:59.660]  He's here.
[05:59.960 --> 06:01.580]  He's going to join us in just a little bit.
[06:01.640 --> 06:06.980]  But this gives us an opportunity to talk about some of the things that are going on in the world and locally, too.
[06:07.320 --> 06:09.160]  We have to talk about something that's very local.
[06:09.400 --> 06:12.960]  In fact, local to this room right here that we are in.
[06:12.960 --> 06:15.780]  And there are some changes here at WBAI.
[06:16.620 --> 06:17.100]  Some...
[06:17.860 --> 06:19.320]  You seem distressed, Kyle.
[06:20.320 --> 06:20.800]  What's...
[06:20.800 --> 06:21.540]  Nothing.
[06:21.700 --> 06:23.220]  I just can't hear myself very well.
[06:23.400 --> 06:23.760]  Oh, okay.
[06:23.860 --> 06:25.120]  Well, you're not talking either.
[06:26.020 --> 06:26.820]  Yes, yes.
[06:26.840 --> 06:27.140]  Okay.
[06:27.140 --> 06:28.000]  I'm aware of that.
[06:28.100 --> 06:28.340]  All right.
[06:29.310 --> 06:35.700]  So, yeah, changes in the schedule here at WBAI.
[06:35.800 --> 06:39.080]  As of September, we are moving.
[06:39.300 --> 06:41.820]  We are moving to 8 p.m.
[06:41.980 --> 06:43.180]  instead of 7 p.m.
[06:44.330 --> 06:45.780]  And, you know, that's...
[06:45.780 --> 06:46.480]  It's interesting.
[06:46.660 --> 06:47.600]  We've been on at 8 p.m.
[06:47.640 --> 06:47.960]  before.
[06:48.160 --> 06:51.220]  It's a late hour, a later hour than 7 p.m.
[06:51.320 --> 06:52.680]  There's more you can do at 8 p.m.
[06:52.700 --> 06:53.740]  You can't do at 7 p.m.
[06:53.740 --> 06:54.240]  That's obvious.
[06:55.500 --> 06:59.600]  And it's not going to be much of a change for us, really.
[06:59.780 --> 07:07.200]  It is, however, going to be a big change for the show that currently is on at 8 p.m., which is the Personal Computer Show.
[07:07.940 --> 07:09.840]  And I just found out they're canceled.
[07:10.160 --> 07:17.080]  The Personal Computer Show, after 33 years on the air, is being canceled at the end of this month.
[07:17.080 --> 07:18.120]  So, that is something.
[07:18.420 --> 07:19.720]  That is something to...
[07:21.220 --> 07:22.620]  Yeah, to take in.
[07:22.620 --> 07:26.060]  And I'm still trying to figure it all out.
[07:26.740 --> 07:28.360]  There are changes here at the radio station.
[07:28.500 --> 07:32.620]  Of course, changes can come at any time for a variety of reasons, whether these are good ideas or bad ideas.
[07:33.000 --> 07:35.660]  I'll leave that up to the listener as an exercise.
[07:35.780 --> 07:37.700]  But we're moving to 8.
[07:37.880 --> 07:39.780]  That's what we're told as of September.
[07:39.800 --> 07:42.600]  So, we have a couple more shows in this slot.
[07:43.060 --> 07:44.900]  And then we'll be one hour later.
[07:45.160 --> 07:46.940]  Which, you know, that's fine by me.
[07:47.000 --> 07:48.060]  It's easier to get here.
[07:48.260 --> 07:48.820]  Less traffic.
[07:49.000 --> 07:52.200]  But not so fine for shows that are being taken off the air.
[07:52.830 --> 07:55.040]  I'm not sure what things are being replaced with.
[07:55.160 --> 07:55.500]  We'll find out.
[07:55.580 --> 07:55.860]  Yes, Bernie.
[07:58.010 --> 08:02.620]  I know we have a lot of online listeners, but we also have a lot of radio listeners.
[08:02.620 --> 08:07.620]  I'm wondering how the schedule change will affect our live radio listeners.
[08:08.370 --> 08:12.820]  And what will be in this slot once we're moved to 8 o'clock?
[08:13.540 --> 08:16.180]  That's something I do not know at this point in time.
[08:16.400 --> 08:19.360]  I'm hearing all kinds of experimental things, but I'm not sure.
[08:19.520 --> 08:29.020]  I read an email from Bertolt Reimers, the general manager, that there would be a comedy program in our slot.
[08:29.020 --> 08:30.900]  But I'm not joking.
[08:31.160 --> 08:32.080]  It's not a joke.
[08:32.290 --> 08:37.080]  It seems to me that they're trying a couple different things, Bernie.
[08:37.480 --> 08:47.220]  There are a couple rumors going around, but I think basically it's going to be about getting some new and interesting, kind of exciting, as you said, experimental content.
[08:47.460 --> 08:50.120]  Stuff that might do well, might not.
[08:50.290 --> 08:54.520]  But to try it out and just keep things fresh here.
[08:54.520 --> 09:04.260]  Well, yeah, it's always good to try new things, but it's sad to lose old things, too, especially if they're providing a good service.
[09:04.550 --> 09:05.120]  I don't know.
[09:05.440 --> 09:10.810]  We'll hear more about this in the weeks ahead, but the news, as far as it affects us...
[09:10.810 --> 09:11.360]  I'm sorry, Bernie?
[09:12.070 --> 09:15.310]  How many years have we been in this slot, Wednesdays from 7 to 8?
[09:15.310 --> 09:15.790]  You know what?
[09:15.830 --> 09:17.420]  That's another exercise for another listener.
[09:18.080 --> 09:19.120]  A long time.
[09:19.310 --> 09:19.790]  A long time.
[09:19.860 --> 09:21.520]  Shortly after 9-11, I can tell you that much.
[09:21.520 --> 09:26.640]  But, you know, I think listeners will be able to adjust to that, to moving one hour back.
[09:27.380 --> 09:29.720]  It's not affecting us a huge amount.
[09:29.860 --> 09:33.200]  Yeah, we're going to be nimble in the face of this.
[09:33.240 --> 09:39.700]  And we're hopeful and confident that listeners will be as nimble and join us at 8.
[09:39.860 --> 09:48.220]  Yeah, I'm more concerned with the station and the ability of the station to survive in the current climate.
[09:48.220 --> 09:53.700]  And with all the internal problems that we have, we're still working on getting our premiums sent out.
[09:54.600 --> 09:55.940]  It's like a mantra with us.
[09:56.070 --> 09:59.380]  We just keep saying, send the premiums that we deliver to the station out.
[09:59.640 --> 10:00.830]  People have paid for them already.
[10:01.200 --> 10:01.700]  Send them out.
[10:01.840 --> 10:05.440]  And then maybe they will pledge again and the station will have more money to operate.
[10:05.440 --> 10:07.600]  It's a simple equation.
[10:08.120 --> 10:08.840]  So we'll see.
[10:08.940 --> 10:09.580]  We'll see what happens.
[10:10.550 --> 10:11.810]  And we'll keep you updated.
[10:12.050 --> 10:13.810]  We're going to try and take phone calls again, right?
[10:13.810 --> 10:19.720]  Because we have, even though we don't have a phone line anymore, we try and bypass.
[10:20.120 --> 10:27.070]  Yes, we brought our improvised phone system and we'll be giving that a whirl very, very shortly.
[10:27.360 --> 10:29.160]  At least at some point during the show.
[10:29.330 --> 10:41.580]  But, you know, hey, that's how community radio, that's how a lot of the organizations that really matter, the ones that do things, are often run on shoestrings, you know, and have to cope with different things.
[10:41.580 --> 10:53.100]  And these are sort of the realities of being a community-based organization in our sort of private, corporate-based society.
[10:54.450 --> 10:58.640]  And so these are the perils of that mission.
[10:58.640 --> 10:59.620]  But we're here.
[10:59.720 --> 11:00.140]  We're committed.
[11:00.140 --> 11:04.660]  And we'll be hopeful that it is a bright future.
[11:04.920 --> 11:08.420]  Let's quickly go over some of the news items that have happened in the last week.
[11:08.420 --> 11:12.640]  Apparently, a sizable proportion of 100 million Volkswagen cars...
[11:13.440 --> 11:15.580]  Why is it always Volkswagens, Kyle?
[11:15.720 --> 11:15.940]  Why?
[11:16.560 --> 11:17.920]  Because we like Volkswagens.
[11:18.030 --> 11:18.940]  Because we drive Volkswagens.
[11:18.960 --> 11:21.770]  It always happens that apparently we're targeted.
[11:22.180 --> 11:28.340]  Yeah, a sizable proportion of 100 million Volkswagen cars sold since 1995 can be unlocked remotely by hackers.
[11:28.620 --> 11:29.900]  Only hackers, by the way.
[11:30.030 --> 11:31.680]  If you're not a hacker, you can't do it.
[11:31.790 --> 11:33.660]  Only hackers are able to do these things.
[11:33.660 --> 11:38.770]  And only hackers would want to do these things because they're evil and full of trouble and all that kind of thing.
[11:39.240 --> 11:43.290]  Yeah, it affects a range of vehicles manufactured between 1995 and 2016.
[11:44.120 --> 11:52.270]  A homemade radio costing about $45 is the only hardware that an attacker apparently requires.
[11:53.240 --> 11:57.010]  Not hard to fathom that such a thing could happen.
[11:57.440 --> 12:06.740]  When you're sending wireless signals through the air, someone simply has to replicate those signals or somehow capture them and they can do the same things.
[12:07.400 --> 12:08.530]  And get into your car.
[12:08.720 --> 12:10.060]  And open a door.
[12:10.380 --> 12:10.480]  Right.
[12:10.580 --> 12:11.900]  Or unlock something.
[12:12.010 --> 12:12.120]  Yes.
[12:12.160 --> 12:12.580]  But you know what?
[12:12.640 --> 12:17.360]  It's as cheap to build yourself custom LoJack so that you can track someone who's stolen your car.
[12:17.360 --> 12:18.320]  So, I don't know.
[12:18.380 --> 12:18.940]  It's give and take.
[12:19.120 --> 12:23.790]  We're in a world where people can build anything for a very, very small amount of money.
[12:24.140 --> 12:24.680]  So, yeah.
[12:24.820 --> 12:25.040]  Great.
[12:25.290 --> 12:26.460]  People can get into your car.
[12:26.620 --> 12:30.920]  But what if that car has some stuff in it that you don't know about as a thief?
[12:31.180 --> 12:32.640]  So, you know, there's always a peril.
[12:32.740 --> 12:34.530]  There's always some risks involved.
[12:34.530 --> 12:39.100]  So, I wouldn't say it's some sort of thief utopia.
[12:39.270 --> 12:41.820]  There's still going to be difficulties.
[12:41.820 --> 12:46.460]  It basically comes down to what we always talk about and that's not to take things for granted.
[12:46.620 --> 12:50.720]  Not to trust technology so much that you're completely crippled when it fails.
[12:50.840 --> 12:51.680]  And it always does fail.
[12:51.820 --> 12:52.620]  It always is compromised.
[12:52.840 --> 12:59.900]  If somebody can get into your car by simply sending a signal, I want to know about it.
[12:59.940 --> 13:01.160]  I want that person to send the signal.
[13:01.240 --> 13:04.400]  I want it to be shown so that something better can be designed.
[13:04.420 --> 13:06.770]  I think that's only fair.
[13:06.770 --> 13:13.300]  To just make it illegal and say, if you do this, you're committing a crime and yeah, it's insecure, but we're going to pretend it is.
[13:13.540 --> 13:14.160]  That's wrong.
[13:14.320 --> 13:32.740]  I also think that there is something just along the lines of the stuff that's been going on with vehicles or Volkswagen in particular and technical stuff being badly designed or designed intentionally to avoid things, to not report or to be very closed.
[13:32.740 --> 13:46.530]  And in all of these scenarios, I think it is on the responsibility of the manufacturers to fix these things, to fix an error in a door opening, to fix the emission control system, to do a good job repairing their mistake.
[13:46.770 --> 13:46.900]  Yeah.
[13:47.080 --> 13:56.380]  And I think there's just a little tinge of wanting to get out of these things through lawyers and all these other avenues that corporate entities have.
[13:56.380 --> 13:58.030]  And I think that's really disappointing.
[13:58.320 --> 14:04.580]  Well, it's interesting because obviously you make reference to the emissions and that's another problem that Volkswagen has had.
[14:04.740 --> 14:06.160]  That's their own problem that they created.
[14:06.620 --> 14:13.220]  But it also, it speaks to blindly trusting what a computer says.
[14:13.320 --> 14:21.060]  Because we found this out through our local mechanic who gave us an annual inspection that includes emissions.
[14:21.060 --> 14:31.840]  Well, because of all the DMCA issues now, mechanics aren't allowed to do certain things to cars unless they're authorized, a dealer or whatnot.
[14:32.420 --> 14:49.120]  So whereas before, a mechanic would be able to actually sample the emissions of a car, all the mechanic can do right now who is not licensed or given permission to do this by the company, all he can do is read what the computer says.
[14:49.120 --> 14:51.120]  And the computer is lying.
[14:51.320 --> 14:53.640]  The computer basically listens to the car.
[14:53.720 --> 14:55.040]  The car says, yeah, I passed.
[14:55.160 --> 14:55.480]  I'm okay.
[14:55.680 --> 14:58.010]  Tell the mechanic that it's fine.
[14:58.400 --> 15:00.770]  That is what's going on.
[15:00.900 --> 15:02.200]  It's oversimplistic.
[15:02.380 --> 15:11.980]  But that is why the cars are passing emissions when they're not actually passing emissions because people are just reading what the computer says.
[15:12.560 --> 15:12.700]  Yeah.
[15:12.960 --> 15:13.320]  Yeah, yeah.
[15:13.400 --> 15:16.940]  And it's important stuff because it's the air quality, right?
[15:16.940 --> 15:19.790]  These policies are in place for a reason.
[15:20.100 --> 15:32.880]  So, yeah, I think they're going to be leaned upon quite hard as far as what these actual remediation strategies end up being and how this plays out.
[15:32.880 --> 15:48.220]  But I think I could go on and on about the sort of the political economy of fossil fuels and transportation in general and how all of that is sort of changing for other reasons because of batteries and all the sort of electric excitement that's going on with transportation.
[15:48.220 --> 16:00.080]  So, it's sort of an odd time and I think it really is the responsibility of the manufacturers to fix their mistakes, like I said, and be a bit more open to innovation.
[16:00.340 --> 16:09.770]  It's also the responsibility of hackers to hack the systems and expose when something isn't right or something is easy to be compromised.
[16:10.480 --> 16:12.560]  I always think that's what we've stood for.
[16:12.640 --> 16:12.980]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[16:14.120 --> 16:18.460]  We had a really good car hacking talk at the 11th Hope.
[16:18.700 --> 16:23.220]  We had two renowned experts, one of whom had been on this show.
[16:23.840 --> 16:34.240]  And, in fact, I ran into somebody in the street today, an IT engineer at SEPTA here at the Southeast Pennsylvania Transportation Authority.
[16:34.300 --> 16:41.600]  I was talking to him today and he said he went to Hope and he went to the car hacking talk and he learned some stuff that enabled him to hack his girlfriend's car.
[16:42.060 --> 16:46.720]  With her permission for him to fix something that she was having trouble with.
[16:47.040 --> 16:49.580]  But you own a Volkswagen, is that not right?
[16:49.770 --> 16:52.940]  I'm not going to confirm or deny what kind of car.
[16:53.300 --> 16:55.420]  But there are Volkswagens in my life.
[16:55.460 --> 16:56.140]  I'll just put it that way.
[16:56.480 --> 16:56.790]  All right.
[16:56.980 --> 17:06.120]  If there were a Volkswagen in your life, might you have received an offer from Volkswagen to settle this class action?
[17:06.120 --> 17:09.030]  And I heard that Volkswagen was paying up to $10,000.
[17:09.030 --> 17:17.400]  Bernie, every night there are these hooded people that break into the garage and try to steal the Volkswagen because if the car is gone, then they don't have to do anything.
[17:18.080 --> 17:20.200]  There's people veering towards me on the highway.
[17:20.200 --> 17:21.530]  They're trying to total the car.
[17:22.040 --> 17:23.270]  It's not going to work, Volkswagen.
[17:23.270 --> 17:27.380]  I'm keeping the damn car and I'm not going to trade it in for something else.
[17:27.480 --> 17:29.340]  I like the car, even if it is lying.
[17:29.340 --> 17:32.140]  What are you saying?
[17:32.270 --> 17:33.200]  Where are you going with this?
[17:33.880 --> 17:38.740]  Well, one, I just want to know if Volkswagen are going to reach out to you yet to try to make amends.
[17:38.920 --> 17:58.790]  And two, I understand that there are some states that are saying that if you do not take your Volkswagen back to Volkswagen and have them retrofit the car, which will ostensibly give it lesser miles per gallon and other problems to correct these cheats that were installed,
[17:59.400 --> 18:05.270]  then they will not allow the car owner to re-register their vehicle in that state.
[18:05.580 --> 18:10.860]  I'm just wondering if New York State is one of those states and if you've been following any of this.
[18:11.140 --> 18:19.080]  Well, Bernie, to answer the first part, definitely Volkswagen has been diligent with communication to owners of these vehicles.
[18:19.080 --> 18:20.290]  I can say that for sure.
[18:20.290 --> 18:34.960]  I will also say that every dealership in the vicinity and a myriad of lawyers have also contacted us to get in on their lawsuit or this lawsuit or that lawsuit.
[18:34.960 --> 18:46.000]  So we've had a tremendous amount of communication regarding the TDI scandal, both from the manufacturer and from other entities, be it dealers or lawyers or whomever.
[18:46.000 --> 18:46.920]  And the hooded people.
[18:47.120 --> 18:49.320]  And the hooded people that E alluded to.
[18:49.480 --> 18:52.540]  The other part of your question, I don't know.
[18:52.660 --> 18:56.500]  I mean, you may be correct in that states have some control.
[18:56.680 --> 19:01.660]  I mean, the emissions policies vary from state to state to a degree.
[19:01.660 --> 19:17.320]  But I definitely think the federal entity, that is the EPA, has cleared with Volkswagen that these vehicles will be legal to drive at least until after the ruling.
[19:17.520 --> 19:25.400]  The remediation, though, and this was a question I think that E asked that I think was a good point, is if you do nothing, what happens?
[19:26.060 --> 19:33.180]  Will you fail inspection if you choose not to sell your car back or if you choose not to get the repair and keep your car?
[19:33.380 --> 19:38.080]  Either way, you do get part of the claim for the lawsuit.
[19:38.420 --> 19:42.960]  But both of those choices don't include the third, which is doing nothing and just driving it.
[19:43.100 --> 19:43.220]  Okay.
[19:43.520 --> 19:50.160]  We could talk about this for hours, literally, but it's a better conversation for the Automobile Show, which airs every week at...
[19:50.160 --> 19:50.860]  We don't have one?
[19:51.060 --> 19:51.240]  No.
[19:51.240 --> 19:52.520]  We don't have an Automobile Show on this station?
[19:52.580 --> 19:53.140]  They got canceled, too.
[19:53.240 --> 19:53.560]  That would be a great idea.
[19:53.560 --> 19:54.380]  That would be a great show.
[19:55.400 --> 19:58.060]  Ideas for shows, you know, it's sort of like almost going to a H.O.P.
[19:58.100 --> 20:04.060]  conference because, you know, as Bernie mentioned, the Automobile Talk at the H.O.P.
[20:04.060 --> 20:05.520]  conference was amazing.
[20:05.540 --> 20:06.640]  I saw part of that.
[20:07.260 --> 20:16.420]  And there were all kinds of subject matters that we discussed in the hacker world that I think would work very well as radio shows in addition.
[20:17.240 --> 20:20.360]  But that's going to lead me into a different topic.
[20:20.540 --> 20:25.180]  After I say one other thing, though, we're talking about hackers having the obligation.
[20:26.320 --> 20:28.560]  To reveal information when it's out there.
[20:28.980 --> 20:32.040]  I just want to ask this question of the hackers in the room.
[20:33.060 --> 20:40.880]  If you had access, if you could get Donald Trump's IRS return, his tax return, do you have the obligation to release it?
[20:41.530 --> 20:44.760]  And I ask this question because I know there are people out there who can do this.
[20:44.860 --> 20:47.140]  I know there are people who have access to this information.
[20:47.840 --> 20:57.540]  Would you be willing to put yourself on the line to share this information that I think the rest of the world feels they have the right to know?
[20:57.720 --> 20:58.540]  It's in the public interest.
[20:58.820 --> 21:00.220]  It is in the public interest.
[21:00.500 --> 21:01.720]  We can agree upon that, right?
[21:01.780 --> 21:03.740]  It's a public service, I think, as well.
[21:03.920 --> 21:07.280]  Because, you know, people are saying that giving this guy...
[21:07.280 --> 21:11.240]  First of all, he had access to intelligence briefings.
[21:11.400 --> 21:13.080]  He had his first briefing today.
[21:13.320 --> 21:14.680]  First brush with intelligence.
[21:15.220 --> 21:15.300]  Yeah.
[21:15.940 --> 21:18.900]  But, you know, people are...
[21:18.900 --> 21:30.020]  Lots of people, not the lots of people that he's always referring to, but people in government, people who study these things are very scared that Donald Trump has access to this information.
[21:30.280 --> 21:35.520]  And figure that he's going to basically start tweeting about it and doing God knows what else.
[21:35.520 --> 21:43.760]  I figure, you know, if Donald Trump is being given access to this information, it really can't hurt to give the rest of us access as well, because we'll probably be a lot more responsible with it.
[21:43.860 --> 21:48.500]  So if you have access to that information as well, perhaps you want to share that in addition.
[21:48.840 --> 21:55.520]  Now, and don't listen to the surrogates and the puns of people walking this discussion back.
[21:55.680 --> 21:56.220]  They're not...
[21:56.220 --> 21:59.520]  They don't actually want to see the returns.
[22:00.480 --> 22:04.120]  That is an opinion around this issue.
[22:05.520 --> 22:10.700]  They don't actually be confident that the rest of us would benefit.
[22:11.140 --> 22:13.980]  So there are people out there saying, you know, we don't need this.
[22:13.980 --> 22:15.820]  It shouldn't be the government.
[22:15.940 --> 22:16.740]  It is a crime.
[22:16.900 --> 22:22.860]  It's a crime to hack into a system and download someone's tax return from the IRS.gov system.
[22:23.700 --> 22:24.880]  Assuming that's where they keep it.
[22:24.940 --> 22:25.500]  I don't even know.
[22:26.060 --> 22:27.740]  The question is, would you do that?
[22:27.880 --> 22:30.620]  Would you be willing to commit that crime for your country?
[22:31.340 --> 22:31.780]  Bernie?
[22:33.280 --> 22:42.800]  Well, I mean, your initial question was, if a hacker had access to the information, would they be obligated to release it to the public?
[22:42.980 --> 22:44.860]  I don't think they'd be obligated to.
[22:45.100 --> 22:45.540]  Morally obligated.
[22:46.120 --> 22:49.280]  I think that's a personal decision as to whether...
[22:49.280 --> 22:55.000]  Like, if I had access to information, I think it should be up to me as to whether I would want to release it to the public.
[22:55.000 --> 22:59.100]  Well, that's why I'm asking individuals, because everyone has their own moral compasses.
[22:59.100 --> 23:00.060]  Now, do I get...
[23:00.060 --> 23:00.820]  Exactly, exactly.
[23:01.020 --> 23:02.560]  Would I get to release...
[23:02.560 --> 23:02.700]  Go ahead.
[23:02.860 --> 23:04.400]  You're sidestepping the question, though.
[23:04.460 --> 23:05.320]  Where is your moral compass?
[23:05.340 --> 23:06.200]  What if it was...
[23:06.200 --> 23:07.220]  No, I...
[23:07.220 --> 23:07.720]  Go ahead.
[23:07.940 --> 23:08.380]  I'm sorry.
[23:08.420 --> 23:09.560]  I've been watching too much Fox News.
[23:09.560 --> 23:11.640]  What if you were able to do it anonymously, Bernie?
[23:11.720 --> 23:12.340]  That's what I want to ask.
[23:12.620 --> 23:12.920]  Okay.
[23:13.200 --> 23:14.840]  That does make a difference.
[23:14.960 --> 23:15.360]  It does.
[23:15.520 --> 23:16.060]  It really does.
[23:16.340 --> 23:25.340]  Because for one to do it non-anonymously, it would be a criminal offense, and you go to prison.
[23:25.460 --> 23:26.240]  There would be repercussions.
[23:26.560 --> 23:27.580]  Yes, but is that better?
[23:27.580 --> 23:32.280]  Is that better than it not being released and something even worse happening?
[23:33.020 --> 23:39.280]  Well, I know there are people in our community who have chosen a path of prison.
[23:39.500 --> 23:40.480]  Well, they didn't want to go to prison.
[23:40.480 --> 23:46.640]  We know people in our community, like Chelsea Manning, who have gone to prison knowing that the stuff they released...
[23:46.640 --> 23:49.960]  What Edward Snowden released, what he did, was a sacrifice.
[23:50.300 --> 23:54.340]  I'm just wondering, are there people out there willing to make that kind of a sacrifice for this?
[23:54.820 --> 23:55.220]  Yes.
[23:55.220 --> 23:58.640]  And, you know, we've seen the DNC emails being released.
[23:58.820 --> 24:03.580]  We see people doing that, and that's great, you know, release all the information that is out there.
[24:03.980 --> 24:07.100]  But this is something that seems to be elusive for some reason.
[24:07.300 --> 24:08.900]  What if the IRS just released it?
[24:08.980 --> 24:11.400]  I mean, they were like, you know, we've thought about it.
[24:11.520 --> 24:12.720]  We're okay with this.
[24:12.720 --> 24:13.940]  We expedited that.
[24:13.940 --> 24:15.120]  And here's the rest of it.
[24:15.240 --> 24:15.360]  Yeah.
[24:16.060 --> 24:21.680]  Anyway, well, it's an exercise, another exercise for the listener, so something to think about.
[24:21.980 --> 24:23.880]  Write to us, OTH at 2600.com.
[24:24.220 --> 24:31.700]  Anyway, speaking about hope, about all these interesting ideas, we've been going through so many of the videos.
[24:31.700 --> 24:34.140]  In fact, all the videos over the last several weeks.
[24:34.220 --> 24:36.060]  We haven't had a day off since the conference ended.
[24:36.060 --> 24:50.080]  Just trying to get the best copies possible and get them in order and make them so that what we always do afterwards is have them available on DVD and have them online and basically spread to as many people as possible.
[24:50.740 --> 24:52.360]  We have a special guest with us tonight.
[24:52.940 --> 24:56.800]  Jolie from the Internet Society is with us tonight.
[24:56.800 --> 25:07.940]  And this is the guy that I think made it all possible as far as having this information saved, preserved, and done in a really, really good quality.
[25:08.700 --> 25:09.980]  And Jolie, welcome to Off the Hook.
[25:10.320 --> 25:10.640]  All right.
[25:11.100 --> 25:11.940]  Thanks for everything you've done.
[25:12.060 --> 25:13.160]  Tell us about Internet Society.
[25:13.480 --> 25:14.480]  What are they...
[25:14.480 --> 25:15.940]  What do they stand for?
[25:15.960 --> 25:16.780]  How long have they been around?
[25:16.980 --> 25:18.940]  And have people heard of them?
[25:19.080 --> 25:23.460]  The Internet Society has been around since 1992.
[25:23.460 --> 25:32.740]  It was formed by Vint Cerf and Robert Kahn, who were the people who invented the IPTCP.
[25:33.280 --> 25:35.660]  I always get this... get them in the wrong order.
[25:36.240 --> 25:37.220]  TCP IP.
[25:37.560 --> 25:42.040]  TCP IP protocols, which is what the Internet runs on.
[25:42.640 --> 26:00.280]  And, you know, as you know, the thing was basically a laboratory experiment that escaped, you know, and as it escaped and became bigger and bigger, they needed a kind of home for it, and specifically for the Internet Engineering Task Force, which was a bunch of geeks who were basically making,
[26:00.280 --> 26:02.820]  you know, the protocols for email and so on.
[26:02.860 --> 26:07.180]  And so that's how come the Internet Society was formed in 92.
[26:07.340 --> 26:12.880]  They used to have these things, kind of like Hopes, but not quite, called INETs, where they'd all get together.
[26:13.240 --> 26:13.680]  INETs?
[26:13.680 --> 26:16.300]  Yeah, and so, you know, back in the day.
[26:17.120 --> 26:19.480]  And so they needed to organize those things.
[26:19.620 --> 26:21.320]  So it was very much a similar organization.
[26:21.700 --> 26:22.520]  You said something.
[26:22.960 --> 26:30.660]  You gave a talk after Cory Doctorow's keynote that was meant to introduce people who didn't already know what Internet Society was all about.
[26:30.660 --> 26:32.500]  Is it Internet Society or the Internet Society?
[26:32.680 --> 26:33.660]  I want to get it right.
[26:33.820 --> 26:35.340]  It doesn't really matter.
[26:35.460 --> 26:37.880]  You know, it's the, you know, it's Internet Society, I guess.
[26:38.000 --> 26:41.560]  But without Internet Society, you would not have the Internet, I believe you said.
[26:41.560 --> 26:44.080]  And how true is that?
[26:45.460 --> 26:52.960]  Well, you know, the Internet, you know, you can look at it and take it for granted, but, you know, it won't necessarily survive, you know.
[26:53.100 --> 27:03.820]  And, you know, the open Internet as we know it, the end-to-end, the things like this that we, you know, that are the basic core, core principles of the Internet are, you know, somewhat fragile.
[27:03.860 --> 27:08.340]  You know, we see fragmentation and all kinds of things going on.
[27:08.700 --> 27:14.120]  You know, right, I mean, right now one of our big issues, of course, is moving everybody from IPv4 to IPv6.
[27:14.160 --> 27:29.980]  And what you've got with IPv4 is network address translation, which is, you know, meaning that all your traffic goes through their, gets churned through their machines, rather than you just, the original idea, which was a dumb middle and intelligence at the edges.
[27:30.120 --> 27:35.580]  And I am glad to see intelligence at the edges at Hope Conference, which is exemplary in that respect.
[27:36.980 --> 27:37.340]  Wow.
[27:37.800 --> 27:41.620]  Now, you also told a story about a biker bar story in 1976.
[27:42.360 --> 27:43.200]  How does that relate?
[27:43.400 --> 27:52.060]  In 1976, I did not know this story until I read it in The Guardian the week before, the week before, and it was, you know, the thing why they invented the Internet was, you know, the Department of Defense.
[27:52.340 --> 28:03.720]  And so they wanted people to be able to communicate, army units to be able to communicate, and down to like tanks in the field to be able to communicate to like, you know, to anybody around the network.
[28:03.720 --> 28:16.880]  And so the real test was when they went to this biker bar out in Palo Alto or somewhere and did this test where they basically communicated with no, you know, just with a van, with the gear parked outside.
[28:17.020 --> 28:19.480]  So that was it in 76, yes.
[28:19.680 --> 28:19.960]  Wow.
[28:20.160 --> 28:20.440]  Interesting.
[28:20.800 --> 28:22.700]  So now, how long have you been involved?
[28:24.060 --> 28:27.560]  I've been involved since about 96, I think.
[28:27.560 --> 28:28.020]  Uh-huh.
[28:28.800 --> 28:31.020]  So I was a little, I was a little late on that.
[28:31.180 --> 28:39.780]  Although, you know, I've been doing computing since the 60s and, but my background is in punk rock, actually.
[28:39.980 --> 28:40.340]  Oh, really?
[28:40.920 --> 28:41.040]  Yeah.
[28:41.200 --> 28:42.360]  Wow, that opens up a whole other door.
[28:42.520 --> 28:43.860]  Okay, cool.
[28:44.060 --> 28:58.340]  So, you know, and in fact, there's a, there's a kind of, there's a common thread if you think about it, you know, peer to peer, you know, in fact, like the 70s was when you had cheap Xerox and people were swapping cassettes was the first, you know, sort of level of peer to peer.
[28:58.460 --> 28:58.480]  Yeah.
[28:58.480 --> 29:07.800]  And it was obvious to me, even when I had my VIC-20 and my, you know, 300 board modem that, hey, we don't have to print fanzines, you know, if we can communicate online.
[29:07.820 --> 29:18.460]  So I was kind of like working on it, but it, you know, and I, I actually came to America originally trying, I went to California trying to like do this with punk rock to like move it on online.
[29:18.660 --> 29:24.780]  And I got there and I found that there were just a bunch of hippies at the well, you know, and the, the punk, the punk rockers weren't into it.
[29:24.880 --> 29:26.600]  And so I ended up doing something else for a bit.
[29:27.020 --> 29:35.980]  And, uh, and it wasn't really until 94 and the, when the web became, you know, mosaic and the web and, uh, net cruiser.
[29:36.120 --> 29:36.800]  I don't know if you remember.
[29:36.940 --> 29:37.880]  I remember these names.
[29:38.120 --> 29:38.420]  Wow.
[29:38.960 --> 29:53.580]  In 94, which suddenly made it available to people, you know, in the, in the original NCA list of websites, you know, when there was only, you know, a thousand websites, you'll find that, you know, the only musical bands practically, the Beastie Boys, and I put on the Bad Brains.
[29:53.600 --> 29:56.320]  I made a Bad Brains site on it right, right there.
[29:56.580 --> 29:57.000]  Wow.
[29:57.620 --> 29:59.500]  So yeah, that's where I come from.
[29:59.760 --> 30:00.600]  That's amazing.
[30:00.620 --> 30:07.360]  And, and you've seen the evolution, but, but things have stayed similar too, with the mentality of, of, of sharing music.
[30:07.360 --> 30:08.900]  We're not doing it with the cassettes anymore.
[30:08.900 --> 30:17.500]  We're doing it, uh, through SoundCloud and various other, uh, forums, but, um, that's really what it's all about is, is, is, is basically sharing information.
[30:18.000 --> 30:19.440]  Well, I personally think so.
[30:19.620 --> 30:25.560]  I mean, some people don't agree, you know, that, uh, you know, the, the, the big, big copyright obviously doesn't agree.
[30:25.740 --> 30:32.920]  And, uh, and so, you know, we always, we have these struggles, you know, like SOPA and things like this, where, you know, we have to stop them blocking.
[30:33.240 --> 30:34.620]  I mean, at hope.
[30:34.740 --> 30:36.540]  And I hope everybody watches the video of it.
[30:36.700 --> 30:47.880]  Corey Doctorow made a speech just on this topic of, you know, basically a jihad against digital rights management, you know, he called for, you know, it was like, it was like an Imam.
[30:48.380 --> 30:48.580]  Yeah.
[30:48.900 --> 30:57.960]  Because, because of the control becoming so granular into every little tiny bit of, of technology out there.
[30:58.080 --> 31:05.320]  I mean, personally, I mean, you know, my experience of punk rock and I do my real role in, within punk rock was I made all the badges.
[31:05.920 --> 31:10.300]  I, you know, and, and I made about 40 million punk rock badges.
[31:10.600 --> 31:10.980]  Wow.
[31:11.240 --> 31:18.880]  And in my early days, of badges, I actually ran a copyright system, you know, and I pay, pay off the clash or the sex pistols or whoever.
[31:19.240 --> 31:34.060]  And, and, and it was, and it came to a point with a band, Joy Division, where they had this attitude of everything was an art object and, you know, had a, had a number and the guy, and they'd been ordering from me and the, but then they, I just was making them.
[31:34.160 --> 31:39.400]  And the guy, the manager came to me and said, well, we don't know whether it's what's coming up or what's going down.
[31:39.560 --> 31:44.240]  And what we figure out is badges is like fanzines and what's, it's what's coming back up at us.
[31:44.340 --> 31:45.880]  It's not what we're putting out.
[31:46.020 --> 31:48.220]  And you shouldn't be paying us off.
[31:48.400 --> 31:53.760]  You know, you should be helping the next guy along and you should give up royalty.
[31:53.760 --> 31:55.040]  And I couldn't afford to pay it.
[31:55.100 --> 31:58.100]  I just used to randomly give money to bands if they needed it.
[31:58.500 --> 32:06.000]  And, uh, and so I said, fine, I'm just gonna, every new band that comes in, I'll just give them 200 free badges.
[32:06.000 --> 32:10.820]  And then, you know, and then, you know, if they want to merchandise it, they can go down the road, you know?
[32:10.960 --> 32:14.200]  And so, and then that was, that was the way we worked from then on.
[32:14.420 --> 32:18.800]  And so we basically made up copyright, you know, our rules for ourselves.
[32:18.960 --> 32:23.540]  And it wasn't so I came to America and I got on the internet and I had to figure out how copyright worked.
[32:23.640 --> 32:35.000]  And I went back and found the commerce clause where, you know, the progress of the, of the arts and the progress of science and so on, that basically, it said that copyright should support the scene.
[32:35.300 --> 32:37.880]  Intellectual property should support the scene.
[32:38.040 --> 32:43.200]  And I think that this is the principle which has to be brought back to, to digital rights management.
[32:43.480 --> 32:46.360]  Not, is it make, you know, does it make people rich?
[32:46.540 --> 32:48.800]  Not do people have moral rights in what they put out?
[32:49.140 --> 32:51.660]  You know, does it support the scene?
[32:52.000 --> 32:53.720]  And does it support the scene today?
[32:54.200 --> 32:58.840]  Um, not a great deal, but the fact is, is that still there is freedom, you know?
[32:58.840 --> 33:02.300]  So, however much they try and clamp down on it, so...
[33:02.300 --> 33:04.440]  Well, DRM is a really ugly beast.
[33:04.840 --> 33:13.880]  I mean, just the things that, um, every year technology becomes more advanced and, and, uh, these companies are able to clamp down even more restrictively.
[33:13.980 --> 33:21.560]  Just, you know, if you post something on YouTube, we've all experienced this, how quickly they're on you if you even, uh, have a couple of notes or...
[33:21.560 --> 33:22.220]  Content ID.
[33:22.640 --> 33:25.100]  And I, and it's evil, the thing on YouTube, which they do.
[33:26.800 --> 33:32.400]  And I have two seconds of music, and they mute your whole video from beginning to end.
[33:32.480 --> 33:35.900]  They don't just take out the two minutes when the, when, when the thing's on there.
[33:36.000 --> 33:37.840]  They mute the whole, the whole thing.
[33:38.000 --> 33:38.920]  Oh, that's, that's so evil.
[33:39.060 --> 33:40.540]  Or they block it, or they block it, uh...
[33:40.540 --> 33:45.920]  I will say, thank God for live stream, because live stream does not have content ID.
[33:46.180 --> 33:51.140]  Facebook has content ID, you know, um, Facebook Live, YouTube has content ID.
[33:51.140 --> 33:53.300]  But, Jolie, what happens when Google buys live stream?
[33:53.300 --> 33:54.140]  Oh, God.
[33:54.320 --> 34:02.460]  Well, you know, so far, you know, live stream is independent, you know, based in Morgan Avenue in Bushwick, and God bless them.
[34:02.620 --> 34:03.680]  Oh, they're, they're, they're local.
[34:03.900 --> 34:04.280]  Oh, yes.
[34:04.380 --> 34:05.020]  I didn't know that.
[34:05.180 --> 34:05.480]  Oh, yeah.
[34:05.520 --> 34:05.940]  Oh, wow.
[34:06.100 --> 34:06.600]  Maybe they're listening.
[34:06.820 --> 34:15.300]  And, uh, you know, Max Hurt, the, the guy who started it, married, uh, Rachel, Rachel Stern, who used to be the chief digital officer of the city.
[34:15.430 --> 34:16.450]  I don't know if you remember her.
[34:16.930 --> 34:19.040]  I didn't know there was a chief digital officer of the city.
[34:19.040 --> 34:24.330]  They just, they just appointed a new one, Sri Sri Srinivasan is now the new one.
[34:24.430 --> 34:24.660]  Okay.
[34:25.000 --> 34:25.580]  Well, that's interesting.
[34:25.740 --> 34:26.460]  The guy from Columbia.
[34:26.720 --> 34:27.800]  Interesting position to have.
[34:28.390 --> 34:29.120]  Uh, wow.
[34:29.280 --> 34:35.700]  Well, but the, the DRM that, that we're facing though, uh, just seems to, um, it seems to cover everything.
[34:35.830 --> 34:37.930]  People are, you know, people are making documentaries.
[34:38.480 --> 34:46.870]  They seem to be obsessed with getting permission from everybody in a crowd scene to be even, even shown or their faces get digitized out.
[34:46.980 --> 34:51.330]  They want to cover any kind of logo, logo or slogan in case they get sued.
[34:51.330 --> 34:58.020]  They don't even want to film buildings because the building might be a landmark and, and, uh, privy to all sorts of, uh, restrictions.
[34:58.620 --> 35:08.580]  Uh, this is not healthy, uh, where the creative process is going because of, uh, of the ability of these companies to clamp down, uh, based on images, sounds.
[35:09.330 --> 35:11.390]  Um, how the, how do we fight this?
[35:11.560 --> 35:12.520]  How do we keep fighting it?
[35:14.440 --> 35:17.120]  Um, I do not have, you know, an answer for that.
[35:17.120 --> 35:24.830]  I don't expect the answer, but, uh, we need to, uh, you know, I mean, some people are going back to sneakernet, you know what I mean?
[35:25.060 --> 35:34.520]  Where you can put a lot of stuff on a stick and pass, and pass it around and it's back to like the seventies of punk rock with people, you know, duping stuff on, on, on cassettes.
[35:34.640 --> 35:36.680]  Well, I think we need to think along those lines.
[35:36.680 --> 35:51.100]  I mean, one, one, one, one suggestion that I have for a lot of these companies that are upset, uh, with, uh, their material or, or material that they, uh, control being copied and shared is to just get off the net, to stop being digital, go back to analog and,
[35:51.100 --> 35:53.820]  and, and vinyl, and then you can control it however you wish.
[35:53.920 --> 35:59.700]  But most of the point is, you know, is these restrictions are not ultimately a good marketing device.
[35:59.860 --> 35:59.980]  No.
[36:00.100 --> 36:05.740]  This is, and, and this is what eventually all these people are finding, just like they took off a lot of DRM on MP3s.
[36:06.040 --> 36:11.450]  You know, there's a story this week about how newspapers are finding that paywalls don't work, you know?
[36:11.450 --> 36:17.020]  Um, you know, the, well, that's an interesting, uh, point because newspapers obviously have to survive.
[36:17.200 --> 36:20.080]  They have to, uh, they have to pay their employees, have to pay their reporters.
[36:20.240 --> 36:24.660]  You need newspapers, uh, a website, uh, a blog is not the same.
[36:24.950 --> 36:29.120]  So what is the solution when people expect to get everything for free?
[36:29.480 --> 36:32.180]  Um, you know, advertisers aren't, aren't paying the same amount.
[36:32.420 --> 36:35.160]  Uh, people are just going online to get news.
[36:35.320 --> 36:43.840]  I, I think the, you know, you know, there are business models that are, that are possible made possible by networking, you know, that, that, uh, could be done.
[36:43.980 --> 36:56.200]  I always had this strange idea way back in the time of Napster when they first was like clamping down and I said, you know, now I've come from this punk rock and, and basically in punk rock, we, we didn't have any coverage from main media.
[36:56.220 --> 37:01.560]  So we relied on the fans, people making fanzines, people wearing badges, people making cassettes for their friends.
[37:01.680 --> 37:03.700]  That was our whole channel of promotion.
[37:03.840 --> 37:05.100]  That was how it worked.
[37:05.140 --> 37:12.600]  You know, it was, you know, that's where the magic came from, you know, you know, you know, it was image and sound as virus, you know, that's, that's how it worked.
[37:12.800 --> 37:16.020]  So, so I, those people are on your side.
[37:16.020 --> 37:25.920]  And I wondered if you couldn't do something like what someone jokingly called the Amway model so that every time someone, you know, uploads your, your music to someone else, they could tag it.
[37:26.080 --> 37:45.760]  And then, you know, you get paid and there's somehow the players, people voluntarily can gas up their players with cash so that everything they play in their player, you know, pays off the person that belongs to, but it also would pay off everybody in whose hands that file had passed on its way to you.
[37:45.780 --> 37:49.260]  So they'd all get a little bit of the action because they'd passed the thing along.
[37:49.540 --> 37:52.020]  And, and so this was pie in the sky.
[37:52.160 --> 38:02.320]  But today, actually, I did the New York blockchain conference and I was streaming that and I heard them talking about something that sounded remarkably like that idea.
[38:02.320 --> 38:02.420]  Yeah.
[38:02.560 --> 38:11.720]  And it's possible, it's just possible that block chains may allow this kind of, you know, this kind of system to work, you know, where there is a chain.
[38:11.950 --> 38:19.740]  You know, there is a chain from, it's on your site, passes to like this guy who uploads it, to this guy who passes it to the next guy, shares it to the next guy.
[38:19.740 --> 38:25.840]  And it all... kind of everybody gets paid off back up the line who gave it to you when you play it in your player.
[38:26.040 --> 38:26.560]  You know what I mean?
[38:26.700 --> 38:28.160]  So, there are different models.
[38:29.020 --> 38:29.480]  Emmanuel?
[38:30.160 --> 38:30.740]  Go ahead, Bernie.
[38:31.680 --> 38:38.700]  I do want to say, this is all touching to some of the material we covered at the 11 Pope Conference last month.
[38:38.700 --> 38:44.860]  There was a really amazing talk about applying blockchain technology to a utopian society.
[38:45.240 --> 38:48.480]  And this is just what our guest is talking about tonight.
[38:49.600 --> 38:51.120]  This is all related.
[38:51.420 --> 38:59.560]  And it just strikes me that I know as WBAI is struggling to survive, what are the radio stations that are going to cover this kind of topic?
[38:59.720 --> 39:02.480]  This is fascinating stuff, but I don't want to interrupt anymore.
[39:02.480 --> 39:05.460]  This is a great conversation, but I just wanted to interject that.
[39:05.640 --> 39:09.480]  I'd like to steer the conversation back to the videos from the Hope Conference.
[39:09.560 --> 39:10.240]  Yes, good idea.
[39:10.360 --> 39:15.320]  Because, you know, now, you're just about to release them like nobody has seen them.
[39:15.320 --> 39:20.780]  Well, I can tell you that we've had 700,000 views of these videos already.
[39:20.780 --> 39:22.060]  700,000 views?
[39:22.280 --> 39:22.880]  Yeah, a minute.
[39:23.060 --> 39:24.380]  Sorry, 700,000 minutes.
[39:24.680 --> 39:25.060]  Okay.
[39:25.220 --> 39:30.460]  It's about 150,000 views and it's about 700,000 minutes.
[39:30.680 --> 39:31.900]  That's still a lot of views, but wow.
[39:32.220 --> 39:35.950]  Yeah, 700,000 minutes of views of our live stream.
[39:35.950 --> 39:36.260]  Uh-huh.
[39:36.380 --> 39:43.260]  And we know that this is just a drop in the ocean, like once you launch, you know, your full-out attack.
[39:43.480 --> 39:52.580]  But there is so much good stuff on there and it should, you know, people could lock themselves in a room for a week because there's three days.
[39:52.800 --> 39:53.640]  How many hours?
[39:53.780 --> 39:54.420]  Do you know how many hours?
[39:55.200 --> 39:57.520]  Well, talk about locking yourself in a room for a week.
[39:57.520 --> 40:03.080]  We've been locked in a studio for about a month now, just basically organizing it all.
[40:03.200 --> 40:04.450]  But I got to say, you know...
[40:04.450 --> 40:05.320]  I can give you a favorite.
[40:05.540 --> 40:05.780]  Yeah.
[40:06.660 --> 40:07.460]  Jason Scott's...
[40:07.460 --> 40:07.820]  Oh, yeah.
[40:08.040 --> 40:08.700]  ...speech about it.
[40:09.420 --> 40:10.420]  Yeah, he was watching...
[40:10.420 --> 40:11.140]  About compassion.
[40:11.280 --> 40:13.340]  Kyle was watching that the other night.
[40:13.720 --> 40:15.360]  If there's any one of them that you want to watch.
[40:15.400 --> 40:18.240]  It was really heartfelt, but really hilarious as well.
[40:18.400 --> 40:26.220]  Like humor and very serious social issues, basically.
[40:26.220 --> 40:28.220]  Yeah, Jason's talks, they're worth it.
[40:28.520 --> 40:31.480]  If you watch nothing else, they're the ones to see, I think.
[40:31.620 --> 40:33.450]  But there's so many good talks.
[40:33.600 --> 40:34.720]  But the lockpickers are hilarious.
[40:34.950 --> 40:35.280]  Oh, yeah.
[40:35.380 --> 40:37.120]  I mean, they're way beyond stand-up comedy.
[40:37.420 --> 40:38.380]  I mean, this...
[40:38.380 --> 40:39.260]  No, it's just...
[40:39.260 --> 40:39.700]  It's amazing.
[40:39.700 --> 40:43.840]  All these cool people that know what they're talking about that get it.
[40:43.840 --> 41:01.180]  What you're talking about, Joel, as far as just an alternate way of dealing with this sharing and technology and corporate bureaucracy and all that, the way that the people really want things to work, these are the guys that make it happen.
[41:01.180 --> 41:09.260]  These are the guys that design things, that build new systems and come up with new ways to basically make it all work.
[41:09.760 --> 41:13.100]  So, yeah, that's what we're releasing tomorrow, officially.
[41:13.100 --> 41:14.780]  But as you say, it's already...
[41:15.480 --> 41:17.240]  It's been out there on live stream.
[41:17.880 --> 41:19.920]  It's floating around in all different formats.
[41:20.420 --> 41:24.540]  And we're just basically packaging it all together and making it organized.
[41:25.140 --> 41:29.000]  And just celebrating the fact that it's preserved, that it's saved.
[41:30.180 --> 41:34.620]  It wasn't in very good shape at the beginning because we didn't have the HD versions.
[41:34.620 --> 41:36.640]  But that's where you guys stepped in.
[41:37.060 --> 41:37.200]  Yeah.
[41:37.200 --> 41:38.600]  And I think really...
[41:38.600 --> 41:43.680]  And thanks to the Internet Society who provide me with the cash and the equipment to do it.
[41:43.760 --> 41:44.620]  It's incredible.
[41:44.620 --> 41:55.480]  What you've done for the community and I think for everybody cannot be understated because having this to look back on will be so inspirational to so many people throughout the years.
[41:55.860 --> 41:59.520]  And we just need to continue doing things like this.
[41:59.560 --> 42:01.580]  I mean, it's a good thing people have two years to, like, digest this stuff.
[42:01.840 --> 42:02.120]  Yeah.
[42:02.120 --> 42:02.740]  You'll need it.
[42:02.820 --> 42:03.500]  You will need it.
[42:03.520 --> 42:03.840]  Absolutely.
[42:03.840 --> 42:07.860]  This is really a new step for us though.
[42:08.040 --> 42:15.020]  This is the first time we've, I think, down converted from an HD format like 720, 1280 by 720.
[42:15.220 --> 42:16.080]  So we're...
[42:16.080 --> 42:22.720]  We did it two years ago and we were able to do justice to one room and we were flaky on the other two rooms.
[42:22.740 --> 42:28.080]  And this was the first time where we managed to do everything, you know, gavel to gavel.
[42:28.080 --> 42:28.380]  Yeah.
[42:28.580 --> 42:32.280]  And the, that in combination with some of the switching was really fantastic.
[42:32.340 --> 42:41.540]  And so what we end up with is, so like a 720p or streaming copies.
[42:41.540 --> 42:56.780]  And then the thing that is, that took a lot of time, I think, is the transcoding from MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 to author DVDs and create our own DVDs and do that quickly with a small team that we have.
[42:56.780 --> 42:57.060]  Yeah.
[42:57.320 --> 42:58.420]  But we were able to do that.
[42:58.520 --> 43:05.460]  And I will say, barring maybe a couple that we split up just so that it wasn't compressing them too much.
[43:05.460 --> 43:08.020]  So we'll have some double discs for some of the longer talks.
[43:08.320 --> 43:09.840]  What's the maximum time you'll run on the DVD?
[43:09.980 --> 43:15.380]  We usually, we don't go about over 60, well, maybe 70, 80 minutes.
[43:15.380 --> 43:17.980]  If it's an hour and a half, that's maybe the max.
[43:18.000 --> 43:21.200]  I think an hour and a half is basically where you have to go into a second DVD.
[43:21.600 --> 43:23.340]  Why do you still do DVD?
[43:23.620 --> 43:27.080]  Because, that's a good question, because there are people who want DVDs.
[43:27.980 --> 43:31.160]  And I don't know why they want them, but there are people who collect DVDs.
[43:31.260 --> 43:33.260]  And as long as they're out there, we're going to continue making it.
[43:33.360 --> 43:37.140]  But we also have MP4s so that people can just copy and share.
[43:37.140 --> 43:43.980]  We do a little bit of DVD work for our African chapters, some of them that don't have good connectivity.
[43:44.220 --> 43:51.140]  But I've generally been running MP4 on DVD-R for them rather than DVD quality.
[43:51.620 --> 43:53.620]  There are so many formats and standards.
[43:53.900 --> 43:59.260]  The thing is, Julia, I think you've touched on it, is basically we're straddling a couple different ways of doing it.
[43:59.260 --> 44:01.220]  And I know that you felt that.
[44:01.340 --> 44:03.920]  We had a couple different teams.
[44:03.920 --> 44:09.280]  We haven't quite refined the process for capturing and archiving.
[44:09.980 --> 44:11.520]  So can I tell you what the next step is?
[44:12.560 --> 44:19.220]  Accessibility is, you know, CART, computer-assisted, real-time translation, you know, at your events.
[44:19.220 --> 44:25.160]  So that you've got a separate screen up on the wall with the text and you've got the transcripts and all this stuff.
[44:25.160 --> 44:29.560]  You know, and that's what we'll go for next time.
[44:29.780 --> 44:29.980]  Yeah.
[44:29.980 --> 44:32.400]  And we just need to find some more money to pay for it.
[44:32.760 --> 44:33.460]  Yeah, definitely.
[44:33.720 --> 44:39.560]  We're always looking for ways to make this possible because what you guys have shown us is what is possible, what's magical about all this.
[44:39.720 --> 44:42.620]  I never would have dreamed that we could achieve this level of quality.
[44:42.980 --> 44:44.000]  It's so professional.
[44:44.980 --> 44:48.460]  We had the same conversation a number of years ago with the network.
[44:49.340 --> 44:55.760]  It used to be that it was basically impossible to get good connectivity at a convention in New York City.
[44:55.820 --> 44:57.260]  You'd think it would be easy, but it was not.
[44:57.360 --> 44:59.320]  And the most we could get was 50 megabit.
[44:59.540 --> 45:04.740]  And it was Kyle who reached out and figured out a way to get fiber into the building.
[45:04.740 --> 45:06.020]  Actually, there was fiber in the building.
[45:06.200 --> 45:09.060]  It had to be connected in a particular way that nobody knew.
[45:09.060 --> 45:13.420]  And now we have a 10 gigabit network connection.
[45:13.740 --> 45:17.480]  We're comparable to what we've seen in Germany, what we've seen in the Netherlands.
[45:18.180 --> 45:22.440]  And it's these steps, these steps forward that I think are very inspirational to so many of us.
[45:22.440 --> 45:36.560]  Also, I'll say that, you know, the actual production values in terms of light and sound in the room, and the things that you did in terms of like taking, you know, because the thing was so jammed, and taking the feed and putting it into other rooms so that people could be watching the thing live.
[45:36.860 --> 45:37.300]  Simulcasting.
[45:37.820 --> 45:38.800]  Simulcasting it around.
[45:39.040 --> 45:39.400]  I mean...
[45:39.400 --> 45:39.600]  Yeah.
[45:39.820 --> 45:43.920]  I mean, you know, I was at the one a couple years ago.
[45:44.000 --> 45:46.600]  I'm a jolly come-lately as far as hope goes.
[45:46.680 --> 45:47.560]  You know, this is it for me.
[45:48.700 --> 45:54.060]  But this one ran so much more smoothly than the one two years ago.
[45:54.140 --> 45:54.640]  I mean...
[45:54.640 --> 46:02.280]  Our AV team deserves all the credit, Chaos, and her team just basically worked day and night to make this happen.
[46:02.440 --> 46:03.560]  And it just, it looked incredible.
[46:03.760 --> 46:04.900]  It ran so smoothly.
[46:05.460 --> 46:06.860]  And yeah, you know, I've been at all of them.
[46:06.960 --> 46:10.400]  And I just, I'd see how, how much better it keeps getting.
[46:10.640 --> 46:12.040]  You're right about production value though.
[46:12.160 --> 46:16.480]  I mean, it just, it pushes it over that much, that extra effort that everybody puts in.
[46:16.580 --> 46:18.160]  I want to ask you a question about hope.
[46:19.000 --> 46:20.340]  That's a wonderful crowd there.
[46:20.460 --> 46:21.500]  Where do they all come from?
[46:21.620 --> 46:22.980]  I mean, they disappear into the woodwork.
[46:23.080 --> 46:25.420]  Well, they're, they're still, they're still around.
[46:25.620 --> 46:26.400]  But yeah, you're right.
[46:26.480 --> 46:27.040]  They're in the woodwork.
[46:27.160 --> 46:27.820]  They're, they're everywhere.
[46:27.860 --> 46:29.540]  And it's amazing too, because you're right.
[46:29.540 --> 46:32.920]  They, they, they just appear every two years.
[46:33.260 --> 46:35.000]  And where do they go after that?
[46:35.260 --> 46:38.720]  Well, I guess they're, they're busy planning for the next one and designing things.
[46:38.920 --> 46:40.800]  And well, Bernie, you're, you're one of them.
[46:40.980 --> 46:42.240]  Look, you're back in Philadelphia now.
[46:43.020 --> 46:43.280]  Yeah.
[46:43.420 --> 46:45.700]  You know, I, I pop my head up every couple of years.
[46:45.880 --> 46:48.900]  Well, more often than that, we're sort of remotely connected.
[46:49.120 --> 46:53.360]  And you know, it takes, hope really takes about a year to put together.
[46:53.480 --> 46:56.100]  And that's why we can only do it every two years.
[46:56.100 --> 46:59.860]  It's because you have to have a breather in between, but it's not just the people who organize hope.
[47:00.020 --> 47:03.280]  Everybody who comes to hope makes hope happen.
[47:03.680 --> 47:06.700]  I mean, uh, Julian just asked, where do these people come from?
[47:06.800 --> 47:13.420]  It's not just the people that are organizers, but, uh, uh, speakers and, and, and attendees.
[47:13.420 --> 47:29.560]  I mean, we had, I mean, I counted several people this year that came from the other side of the planet from Australia, not just speakers, but, uh, attendees and volunteers and, you know, everything from speakers to people working security to attendees from the other side of the planet.
[47:29.760 --> 47:36.680]  Uh, we had a great speaker from China, 16 years old, speaking about incredible Chinese block technology.
[47:36.900 --> 47:37.580]  I think he's from New York though.
[47:37.780 --> 47:39.140]  He's Chinese, but I think he's from New York.
[47:39.700 --> 47:40.500]  I think I know.
[47:40.620 --> 47:44.420]  Wait, well, yeah, but he's, but he's Chinese, Chinese kid.
[47:44.580 --> 47:45.840]  But yeah, he's, he lives in New York.
[47:46.260 --> 47:47.740]  He talked about, he talked about Chinese locks.
[47:47.980 --> 47:48.120]  So.
[47:48.760 --> 47:49.120]  Yes.
[47:49.360 --> 47:50.120]  He's familiar.
[47:52.020 --> 47:52.380]  Yes.
[47:52.520 --> 47:52.680]  Yeah.
[47:53.440 --> 48:02.240]  I mean, people come from all over the world to hope, to make it happen as an attendee, as a speaker, as a volunteer, uh, as a, as a project manager.
[48:02.500 --> 48:04.100]  They're, they, to answer Julian's question.
[48:04.560 --> 48:07.220]  They come from around the globe and that's what we want.
[48:07.400 --> 48:08.780]  Uh, Jolie, it's not Julian, it's Jolie.
[48:09.140 --> 48:09.640]  Yeah.
[48:09.940 --> 48:10.900]  I'm sorry, I thought it was Jolie.
[48:10.900 --> 48:11.680]  Jolie, thank you.
[48:11.720 --> 48:12.600]  J-O-L-Y.
[48:12.740 --> 48:13.080]  One L.
[48:13.800 --> 48:14.560]  Oh, okay.
[48:15.080 --> 48:15.520]  Jolie.
[48:16.020 --> 48:24.660]  Jolie, uh, let's bring it back to, uh, Internet Society because I really want them to, uh, to get a lot of the spotlight here because they, they really deserve it.
[48:25.020 --> 48:25.760]  There are chapters.
[48:26.120 --> 48:27.600]  You run the chapter in New York.
[48:27.820 --> 48:28.140]  Yeah.
[48:28.240 --> 48:32.380]  I'm, I'm, I'm recently, uh, ascended to the role of president and of the chapter.
[48:32.620 --> 48:32.740]  Yes.
[48:32.880 --> 48:33.220]  Congratulations.
[48:33.220 --> 48:35.140]  Um, we have a chapter in D.C.
[48:35.240 --> 48:36.140]  We have one in Colorado.
[48:36.260 --> 48:41.440]  We just got a new chapter in, uh, the research triangle in North Carolina.
[48:42.880 --> 48:45.080]  Um, and, uh, we have a good one in San Francisco.
[48:45.080 --> 48:47.860]  We have 110 chapters around the world.
[48:48.040 --> 48:49.540]  We have 86,000 members.
[48:49.900 --> 48:52.800]  So what, what other kinds of projects do you guys support?
[48:53.280 --> 48:55.240]  Um, we actually do funding.
[48:55.280 --> 49:04.020]  And this is one of the reasons if you're thinking of joining the Internet Society is, is something where if you've got a project that involves like hooking people up, you know, you can get money from us.
[49:04.120 --> 49:11.740]  We have a thing called beyond the net where you can get between, you know, a couple grand or up to like 30 grand to do you, to do your project.
[49:12.000 --> 49:23.820]  Just right now, we're, uh, we're acting as fiscal sponsor for, uh, NY Mesh, who are sitting up an antenna just, I think it's this week on the, the old Verizon building downtown.
[49:24.300 --> 49:24.400]  Yeah.
[49:24.460 --> 49:25.640]  Mesh networks are fascinating.
[49:25.900 --> 49:26.540]  They really are.
[49:26.740 --> 49:28.200]  I mean, it's a controversial subject.
[49:28.200 --> 49:34.420]  You know, some people, um, you know, say that basically you can't get there from here.
[49:34.420 --> 49:37.580]  And I'm, I'm waiting to be, to see them proved wrong.
[49:38.540 --> 49:46.940]  Um, uh, a thing that, uh, is coming out of, uh, from our Dutch chapter, um, supporting is, uh, is a thing called the things network.
[49:47.060 --> 49:47.720]  Have you heard of that?
[49:48.080 --> 49:48.700]  I have not.
[49:49.060 --> 49:52.240]  Um, that's, uh, that's an internet of things thing.
[49:52.360 --> 49:53.780]  And they, they're on a different frequency.
[49:53.940 --> 49:54.760]  They call it LoRa.
[49:54.980 --> 49:56.640]  It's long range, L-O-R-A.
[49:57.280 --> 50:06.060]  And, uh, and this is, uh, a very different kind of network, which just where things just chirp for a minute and then it picks them up and you've got gateways.
[50:06.260 --> 50:12.980]  And you, you can cover a whole city very quickly and you can have like sensors and you can do all kinds of different things with it.
[50:13.080 --> 50:15.700]  That's, uh, and they have meetups in New York.
[50:15.720 --> 50:19.200]  So if you actually Google the things network, you can find out about their meetups.
[50:19.300 --> 50:21.360]  And this is a great way to decentralize control.
[50:21.660 --> 50:21.960]  Yeah.
[50:21.960 --> 50:24.700]  So that, uh, the internet can't just be turned off.
[50:25.060 --> 50:25.280]  Yeah.
[50:25.940 --> 50:27.560]  It's, you know, this is it.
[50:27.720 --> 50:35.080]  The things network is a very interesting thing because it's completely bottom up outside, outside up kind of thing that's going on.
[50:35.240 --> 50:37.860]  And it's, you know, and it's hap, you know, it's just happening.
[50:38.020 --> 50:42.160]  You know, it's like a mesh, but it's different because it's not that high bandwidth.
[50:42.380 --> 50:43.620]  You know, we've got to be talking all the time.
[50:43.620 --> 50:49.900]  It's just like we send a few bits here, you know, the sensors over here, it sends a few things every now and again.
[50:50.040 --> 50:53.540]  And you all kind of, you know, it's got some interesting applications.
[50:53.740 --> 50:55.580]  So what other parts of the world do you have chapters in?
[50:57.340 --> 51:01.860]  Well, you, you name it, you know, where we don't have a chapter is in China.
[51:02.040 --> 51:08.900]  There is an internet society of China, which is not affiliated because it's government, because it's controlled by the government.
[51:09.120 --> 51:10.590]  We refuse to let them join.
[51:11.660 --> 51:11.860]  Right.
[51:12.120 --> 51:14.380]  But, um, but, uh, pretty much.
[51:14.480 --> 51:18.760]  And if you go to internet society.org, you can go and find a map and you can click on it.
[51:19.060 --> 51:22.900]  Now people interested in starting chapters in their city or their country.
[51:22.900 --> 51:24.460]  Uh, how would they go about that?
[51:24.840 --> 51:27.880]  Well, you can, you can just go to internet society and it says chapters.
[51:28.080 --> 51:33.140]  And anyway, you just Googled, you just go down in the menu and it's got a thing about how do you start a chapter?
[51:33.920 --> 51:38.260]  And, uh, you know, to me, there are certain cities in America that really could do with chapters.
[51:38.440 --> 51:40.940]  I mean, Seattle is, is one Chicago.
[51:41.140 --> 51:41.300]  Yeah.
[51:41.340 --> 51:41.580]  Kyle.
[51:41.840 --> 51:42.620]  He's from Seattle.
[51:43.380 --> 51:44.320]  I'll get right on that.
[51:44.720 --> 51:47.460]  Um, you know, we have, you know, it's true.
[51:47.860 --> 51:57.420]  Then of course we're involved in I can, you know, I'm, you know, so I can, you know, which is the internet corporation for assigned names and numbers does all the top level TLDs.
[51:57.600 --> 52:04.800]  And so they have a thing called at large where everyday internet users can like put in their two cents.
[52:05.120 --> 52:07.940]  So we're an at large structure within that.
[52:08.080 --> 52:11.660]  And so we, you know, put in our two cents when, when, when.
[52:11.840 --> 52:12.300]  And they listen.
[52:13.220 --> 52:13.740]  Sometimes.
[52:13.740 --> 52:14.040]  Yeah.
[52:14.160 --> 52:16.800]  We have done certain things where we've made them change.
[52:16.800 --> 52:25.060]  You know, we changed, we made them stop what was known as fast flux, which was when people would, would set up sites, you know, fish fishing sites.
[52:25.200 --> 52:30.260]  And then, and you know, well, there was a thing where you could, you could get a site.
[52:30.260 --> 52:33.880]  And then if you didn't like it after a week, you could, you could pack it up.
[52:33.940 --> 52:34.400]  Uh huh.
[52:34.500 --> 52:34.940]  Do you know what I mean?
[52:34.940 --> 52:40.260]  So people would order sites and then, and then do a bunch of spamming and then like not have the site.
[52:40.360 --> 52:41.520]  So we made them stop that.
[52:41.640 --> 52:43.180]  So there's certain things we've been able to do.
[52:43.480 --> 52:57.760]  Um, you know, we work on the, on all the, the, you know, the fishing and spamming to try and make the registries, you know, act up to their obligations to like, you know, stop people from doing, doing that crap.
[52:58.100 --> 53:01.600]  Or making it extremely easy to exploit for those purposes.
[53:01.840 --> 53:01.940]  Yeah.
[53:02.060 --> 53:03.660]  And how, how do you get funding?
[53:03.660 --> 53:05.400]  How do you get people to support?
[53:05.860 --> 53:11.140]  Uh, well, this, this was a thing was that, um, that we ran out of money in the early two thousands.
[53:11.540 --> 53:20.420]  And, uh, and so the American government in its, uh, in its wisdom decided to like verisign controlled.com.net and .org.
[53:20.700 --> 53:23.740]  And so they decided to take .org away from Verisign.
[53:24.100 --> 53:31.400]  And, uh, our patron and founder Vint Cerf managed to persuade, persuade them to pass along .org to us.
[53:31.500 --> 53:33.300]  So we control the .org registry.
[53:33.300 --> 53:41.120]  So every time you get a .org, uh, you know, name, domain name, we can, whoops, my dear bottle.
[53:41.700 --> 53:42.440]  We, we get that.
[53:42.620 --> 53:43.760]  We get some money from that.
[53:43.860 --> 53:47.600]  And that's what in fact paid for your, for your webcasting this time.
[53:47.680 --> 53:48.080]  Wow.
[53:48.300 --> 53:48.880]  I had no idea.
[53:48.940 --> 53:51.740]  And we also have 2600.org, but that's a whole other issue.
[53:51.980 --> 53:53.040]  And WBAI.org.
[53:53.040 --> 53:53.860]  So, wow.
[53:54.160 --> 53:55.860]  So you guys, you guys have a hand in that.
[53:55.940 --> 53:56.400]  That's amazing.
[53:56.580 --> 53:56.720]  Yeah.
[53:57.000 --> 53:57.580]  That's incredible.
[53:57.800 --> 53:58.380]  I had no idea.
[53:59.500 --> 54:01.500]  Julie, it's just, we could talk for hours about this.
[54:01.680 --> 54:09.960]  We're, we're running out of time right now, but please give, um, give, uh, contact info, uh, where people can go for more information, how they can support you, what you guys need.
[54:09.960 --> 54:14.920]  Well, you know, we're ISOC-NY.org.
[54:14.940 --> 54:16.600]  It's the Internet Society of New York.
[54:16.840 --> 54:33.320]  Um, we, uh, we have coming up, uh, an event on October the 5th, where we're joining together with every other cyber security group in the, in, in the city, um, especially OWASP to do, it's the, the joint cyber security, uh, conference.
[54:33.540 --> 54:34.200]  Where is that taking place?
[54:34.340 --> 54:36.960]  It's at Microsoft up at, uh, Times Square.
[54:37.200 --> 54:37.540]  Okay.
[54:37.540 --> 54:42.260]  It's, it's 50 bucks to get in and it's just one day of kind of intense cyber security.
[54:42.500 --> 54:43.640]  So that's one thing.
[54:43.780 --> 54:50.760]  And then, and if, in fact, you go to OWASP, uh, dot org, you know, you'll, you'll find, you'll find out about it.
[54:51.540 --> 54:51.920]  Wow.
[54:51.920 --> 54:52.620]  I hear that music.
[54:52.860 --> 54:55.300]  It's like, it's like going to have, we're going to heaven.
[54:56.540 --> 54:59.480]  Well, we're going to the personal computer show, uh, after, after this.
[54:59.760 --> 55:02.840]  Um, but another thing we're concerned about is the infrastructure in the city.
[55:02.920 --> 55:15.780]  And this is something we could do a whole show on is like, you know, the jammed pipes under the streets where, you know, there is no fiber, you know, I'm, I'm, that's one of my, uh, you know, uh, or all the people who don't got files, you know, uh, well,
[55:15.840 --> 55:17.000]  Julie, I think we're going to have to have you back.
[55:17.000 --> 55:19.900]  Cause, uh, these are topics that, that demand a lot of time.
[55:20.020 --> 55:20.180]  Yeah.
[55:20.240 --> 55:23.200]  And you obviously are the guy that knows, uh, so much about this.
[55:23.740 --> 55:27.720]  We all want to thank you for, for your efforts to make, uh, making the hope conference such a success.
[55:27.720 --> 55:29.000]  We enjoy it so much.
[55:29.260 --> 55:37.760]  And, um, enjoy the videos when they, uh, when they come out tomorrow, look for the information on the 2600.com website and we'll be talking again real soon.
[55:37.920 --> 55:38.200]  Okay.
[55:38.320 --> 55:38.660]  Thank you.
[55:38.880 --> 55:39.080]  Good night.
[55:39.080 --> 55:42.920]  And then you realize there's no point to this.
[55:43.180 --> 55:46.400]  If you can end it with a kiss.
[56:47.580 --> 56:56.620]  Here's a list of traits for which I pay dearly.
[56:56.960 --> 57:00.480]  But I'm more than happy.
[57:01.000 --> 57:05.640]  I'm obliged to comply until I die.
[57:08.600 --> 57:14.560]  I don't write what I want anymore because there's finally someone to hear.
[57:14.920 --> 57:16.760]  My nothings.
[57:16.880 --> 57:18.560]  That is all they are.
[57:18.800 --> 57:21.300]  This isn't something new.
[57:22.820 --> 57:28.820]  I don't do what I do anymore because I'm always here.
[57:29.180 --> 57:33.880]  It makes me feel like a king and there's nothing I'd rather be doing.
[57:36.920 --> 57:42.700]  So I think it's final that this is the end of the old me.
[57:43.240 --> 57:48.080]  I've got this one last spark and now it's here for you to read.
[57:51.100 --> 57:56.940]  So when everything's smooth and swell and I have no complaints.
[57:57.660 --> 58:02.220]  Explain, why must I keep myself from wandering away?
[58:05.510 --> 58:08.650]  It's not the message from God.
[58:09.090 --> 58:11.750]  It's not communication.
[58:12.810 --> 58:15.610]  Well I can torture every now and then.
[58:16.250 --> 58:19.070]  And it'll happen again and again.
[58:43.610 --> 58:45.410]  I'm satisfied.
[58:45.430 --> 58:48.770]  I'm still waiting for that time.
[58:49.350 --> 58:52.910]  I'm planning for things.
[58:53.150 --> 58:55.670]  I'm still hoping for that day.
[58:57.960 --> 59:01.800]  Who knows what the future holds?
[59:02.060 --> 59:04.480]  Do you think it'll come my way?
[59:05.180 --> 59:09.740]  I guess you don't care whether or not we stay.
[59:12.120 --> 59:13.940]  I'm satisfied.
[59:13.940 --> 59:14.440]  I'm satisfied.
[59:14.700 --> 59:17.140]  I'm still waiting for that time.
[59:19.320 --> 59:20.640]  I'm satisfied.
[59:20.640 --> 59:24.060]  I'm planning for things to sail away for that day.
[59:26.300 --> 59:30.180]  Who knows what the future holds?
[59:30.320 --> 59:32.880]  Do you think it'll come my way?
[59:33.480 --> 59:38.140]  I guess you don't care whether or not we stay.
[59:40.360 --> 59:45.660]  I'm satisfied, still waiting for that time.
[59:47.580 --> 59:52.420]  I'm planning complete, still hoping for the day.
[59:55.140 --> 59:58.680]  Who knows what the future holds?
[59:58.840 --> 01:00:01.480]  Do you think it'll go my way.